Are Low Bar Squats REALLY Needed for Strength and Size? (Andy Baker) | Ep 283

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What if sticking to just one squat style is actually limiting your gains? Struggling with joint pain or mobility issues from low bar squats but are afraid to switch?

I’m joined by elite strength coach Andy Baker to break down the myth that low bar squatting is mandatory for gains. We dive deep into the world of squats, comparing different styles to see which ones are best for building muscle and strength. Andy and I will help you figure out the perfect squat for your body and what you want to achieve.

Andy Baker is a highly sought-after strength coach, co-author of Practical Programming and The Barbell Prescription, and owner of Kingwood Strength & Conditioning. Through his Baker Barbell Club, he’s helped thousands of lifters get stronger by training smarter.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

05:59 – Why low bar squats aren’t as superior as you think
09:40 – The origins of low bar squatting and why it became dominant
16:40 – When and why you shouldn’t low bar squat
22:05 – How to know if you should switch your squat
29:20 – The real reason elbow and shoulder pain happens with low bar
35:40 – Why strategic variation makes you stronger and healthier
46:07 – The most underrated squat variation for quad growth
55:49 – The #1 most common squat mistake lifters make
1:09:05 – Best squat variations for quads—Andy’s top picks
1:20:52 – How to cue yourself for a perfect squat
1:25:00 – Outro

Episode resources:

• Baker Barbell Club: andybaker.com 

• Ep 60: Strength and Programming for Maximum Gains at Any Age with Andy Baker

• Ep 131: Andy Baker on Bodybuilding for Hypertrophy and an Aesthetic, Muscular Physique

The Truth About Low Bar Squats for Strength and Muscle

If you’ve ever forced yourself into a low bar squat because you thought it was the only way to get strong and build muscle, or if joint pain and mobility issues have made it a struggle, this is for you. Strength coach Andy Baker is back on the show to break down the role of squat variations and whether low bar squatting is truly necessary for size and strength.

Why the Low Bar Squat Became the Gold Standard

The low bar squat has been championed in strength training circles—especially in programs like Starting Strength—for its efficiency. It recruits a lot of muscle mass, allows for heavier loading, and helps beginners get strong quickly. But as Andy points out, this doesn’t mean it’s the only way to squat, nor does it guarantee better results than other variations.

• More weight ≠ more muscle – Just because you can lift heavier doesn’t mean you’re maximizing hypertrophy.

• Not all squats are created equal – Different squat variations shift emphasis to different muscle groups.

• Injury and comfort matter – If low bar is wrecking your elbows and shoulders, forcing it may be a losing battle.

The Real Difference Between Squat Variations

Andy sketched out a simple spectrum: on one end, not squatting at all (zero), and on the other, the low bar squat (rated as a 10 in effectiveness). But the kicker? Most other squat variations—high bar, safety bar, even some machine-based options—were clustered right behind it at an 8 or 9. The takeaway? The difference between them isn’t as drastic as people assume.

So if low bar is causing pain or limiting your progress, shifting to a high bar squat, safety squat bar, or even a well-executed hack squat isn’t going to derail your strength gains.

Does Low Bar Build More Muscle Than High Bar?

Here’s where it gets interesting:

• Low bar squats bring in more hips, glutes, and adductors, making them effective for overall strength but not necessarily optimal for quad growth.

• High bar squats put more demand on the quads while still engaging the posterior chain.

• Safety squat bar squats challenge the upper back more and can be easier on the shoulders and elbows.

• Hack squats isolate the quads effectively while minimizing stress on the spine.

For muscle growth, a mix of variations often works best. If you’re trying to maximize quad development, relying only on low bar squats might not be ideal.

When to Ditch the Low Bar Squat

If you're constantly dealing with nagging pain in your elbows or shoulders, or if low bar just doesn’t feel natural, it’s worth experimenting with different squat styles. Some key scenarios where swapping it out makes sense:

• Chronic elbow or shoulder pain from low bar positioning

• Struggling to hit depth or maintain good form

• Plateauing in squat strength despite consistent training

• Training for hypertrophy and needing more quad emphasis

What’s the Best Squat for You?

It depends on your goals:

• For strength – If you’re a powerlifter, low bar squatting is useful for competition. But if you’re a general lifter, you can get strong with multiple squat styles.

• For muscle growth – A combination of high bar squats, hack squats, and safety bar squats may be better than just low bar squats alone.

• For longevity and pain-free training – If low bar is causing chronic issues, it’s not "better" for you—choose a variation that lets you train consistently.

At the end of the day, squatting in a way that fits your body and goals is more important than sticking to a specific squat style out of dogma. Don’t let attachment to one lift limit your progress.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been forcing yourself to low bar squat because you believe it's the only way to maximize strength and muscle, or if nagging joint pain and mobility issues make low bar squatting a struggle and you're wondering can I squat a different way and still build strength and size. This episode is for you. Today, I'm discussing the low bar squat with strength coach Andy Baker. You'll discover how different squat variations compare for building muscle and strength, learn why sticking to just one squat style could be limiting your results, and get a clear framework for choosing the right squat variation for your goals and body. So, whether you've got injuries, you're questioning if low bar squatting is right for you, or you just want to understand the options, this episode will give you the knowledge to train effectively without giving up squatting altogether. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:00

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited Andy Baker back on the show for the third time to discuss squat variations and challenge the notion that there is one best way to squat. Andy's a highly sought after strength coach, co-author of Practical Programming and the Barbell Prescription. He's the owner of Kingwood Strength and Conditioning and the online Baker Barbell Club, where he's helped thousands of lifters like myself train to get stronger by training smarter. If you missed him last time, check out episode 60 and 131, where we discussed his programming, philosophy and approach to bodybuilding. I'll throw the links in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 1:35

But today we're answering the question are low bar squats really needed to build strength and size? Andy, thanks for coming back on the show. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. So I wanted to bring you on because a few days ago in your Facebook group, you posted a picture of a line graph from zero to 10, and 10 was the low bar squat, implying it was the, let's say, most effective squat. Whatever you want to call it. Zero was not squatting at all, and then a whole bunch of other variations of the squats clustered near the 10. And I want to ask you why you posted that and get into what it means.

Andy Baker: 2:08

Yeah, so that little graphic or that little picture that I posted, it came as a result of a conversation with one of my members, a longtime member of my club, and it's a conversation that I not just had with him. I've had with dozens or hundreds of people in some context. You know, throughout all the time I've been, you know, hosting forums and social media and you know just conversations with clients and that sort of thing. It's something that's come up, you know, a million times. And so the little graphic that I did was a hand-drawn. You know, I just I had this conversation with him and I literally just reached over and grabbed a piece of typing paper and a Sharpie and made this and took a picture of it with my phone and posted it on the Facebook group, because I don't know how to create infographics, because I'm-.

Philip Pape: 2:55

That's the way to do it, man. It's organic, right I'm technologically.

Andy Baker: 2:58

you know, like my technological age is about 80. So I don't know how to use Canva and all that stuff. Every time I do it it winds up taking me 10 times longer than it should, and it's just so. I'm like you know what, I'm just going to draw this really quick and take a picture of it and put it on there. But like it got a lot of response on there and I was kind of surprised like how many people really responded to that and kind of self-reported, like how eye-opening it was to me, which that happens when you're coaching.

Andy Baker: 3:27

Sometimes you don't realize things that you assume to be common knowledge or things, that you take a lot of things for granted, and then you you say something. You know just a little short infographic or an offhand comment that you make on a subject and it just, for whatever reason, resonates with tons of people. And this one did, and basically the conversation that I had with him. It's a guy that has been lifting in my club for a long time and he's had a history of different injuries and things like that. Nothing major but just little shit that we all get when we're pushing ourselves hard, but things elbows and shoulders I can't. Actually I can't remember right now what the actual issue he was having, but it's been a recurring issue with him over a number of years with low bar squatting and basically what he was kind of reporting to me was that I had told him to start integrating the safety squat bar, you know, not too long ago to kind of save some wear and tear on his elbows and shoulders.

Andy Baker: 4:28

Um, and then he had more or less basically just converted to safety bar squatting entirely and trained like that for a while and didn't have any issues. Uh, all the kind of the, all the little minor injury stuff that he had been dealing with off and on, just kind of went away when he switched over to the safety squat bar and then he decided, okay, I'm going to go back to low bar and a lot of those, some of the little injury stuff started coming back. He was very disappointed and frustrated because low bar is something that he wanted to do but he's like, at this point is it worth it? And he he sounded like the tone of his post was very dejected and I was, I like I didn't quite get it.

Philip Pape: 5:07

Life is over because I can't lower anymore. That was kind of the tone is that like, is it over for me?

Andy Baker: 5:11

like yeah, and the kind of the tone of his post was that like, well, I'm relegated to this other squat variation. You know, I'm relegated to safety squat bar. So it's. It was like somebody told him you know, you just need to do yoga or something you know know. It was like and I'm like, dude, it's not that big of a trade-off. And so I said, let me here, let me explain this to you, because I think you're making this out to be a much bigger deal than it is to switch to some other squat variation. And so I did the little graph and I'm like, look, you guys know me, I came out of the starting strength world. I'm an advocate of the low bar squat. I do think it's. You know, if you had to rank them, um, which that's. That kind of stuff's hard to do because it's always context dependent. It's hard to. With exercises, it's always hard to say this is best. You know this is first, this is second. You know cause it's?

Philip Pape: 5:58

it's context dependent the S tier, the A tier, yeah, yeah.

Andy Baker: 6:01

Right. So it's like it will. It's always. It goes back to that answer that people hate, which is you know, it depends. You know what's the best squatting? Very well, it depends. But you know, if I kind of made this little chart and I was like okay, or this little graph and I was like okay, if we assume, if we're going to say that you know, low bar is the best and I put that as a 10, you guys have in your head that these other squat variations are like two and three, like they're, they're like way, way down, and I said, look, they're probably like eight or nine, like they're all. So it's like all these squat very like low bars, 10 it's over here, but then like right behind it would be the other. You know squat variations of um. You know front variations of um. You know front uh, not front squats necessarily, but high bar, safety bar and and then like zero is like not squatting yeah, it's good to have that on there.

Philip Pape: 6:52

And then like, and then even like leg presses.

Andy Baker: 6:54

I put it like six or something and you know, as what happens online, people get really wrapped up in like the actual number. Well, is it a six? And I'm like don't get. What the point is is like you're not, you're not missing out on that much by switching to it. So like don't get dejected and think that like it's over for you because you can't do this one exercise. And I would say that to any exercise, not just low bar versus high, I'd say that if a guy can't bench, you know, for whatever reason, you know, if the, if the flat barbell bench, like are you missing out on some stuff by not being able to do that? Probably, but is there other things that you can do that are going to still get your upper body, you know, big and strong, of course. So it's not like it's over. There's been plenty of great, you know, bodybuilders and strength athletes and stuff that had to do modified versions of things you know.

Andy Baker: 7:45

So, and that was kind of my point with him was like, look at this point, even me being an advocate of like low bar and all that kind of stuff, you're going on several years now of battling this stuff and even if it is theoretically better on paper for all the reasons that you know, I would tell you that it is it's not better for you as the individual in practice because you're having to just constantly battle through entries and it's not just affecting your ability to squat, but when your elbows and shoulders and stuff are getting tore up from it, it's affecting your bench pressing and your upper body work too. So it's not. What good are you really getting out of it by constantly having to battle through this?

Philip Pape: 8:28

Yeah, people reduce it to just the lift as opposed to the systematic recovery, the consistency, like you said, the avoiding injury. Man, we were talking before about my shoulder and my favorite lift used to be the overhead press and I can't do it right now. So what do I do? Do I go cry? No, I have to figure out what to do. But there might be people listening like why is this a big deal? There are others listening like they love you because they, you know starting strength and they came from that world and they're like well, we know why the low bar is just dominant. What is the origin of that whole thing? So we can get into it. Why is the low bar squat seat put on this pedestal?

Andy Baker: 9:01

Well, it's for the reasons that are outlined, that Ripoteau has outlined in starting strength, basic barbell training, and again you have to kind of put that into context of who is starting strength written, for it's a beginner's program and we're trying to maximize certain amounts of things, and one of those things we're trying to maximize is efficiency. And so you know, what are the lifts that were selected for a novice program, you know, for somebody that's interested in general strength, and that would be the overhead press, the bench press, muscle mass through their most effective range of motion with the most weight possible. So, what variation of lifts? Uh, best satisfy those three criteria and we're going to use those to help us kind of make our exercise selections for a novice and just work on mastering those basic lifts rather than trying, just like any other area of skill development, whether it's in sport or not, even outside of sport, any other discipline that you're trying to learn from scratch and master, is going to start with a handful of basic fundamentals that need to be mastered before you move on to the next thing and the next thing and so.

Andy Baker: 10:29

But then the argument becomes well, what are the basics? I mean, most people don't get in an argument about that, whether it's weight training or math or baseball or any other discipline that somebody would be trying to learn from scratch. If you just make the general assertion that, well, you need to master the basics first, most people go, oh yeah, that makes sense, that's probably right, and then you go on to more and more complex things. From there the argument comes as okay, what are the basics, what are the basic things that you should master? Because most people agree that, as a beginner in any discipline, trying to master too many things especially for people that are doing this, that aren't particularly athletic all the time, it's harder for them to master too many things. So what are the things that we want to focus on in the beginning, that are going to give you the biggest ROI on your return in the gym, that are going to build the most amount of strength, build the most amount of muscle mass, carry over to other endeavors, and so those are the reasons that the low bar was chosen as the squat variation is that it allows more weight to be used. It works more muscle mass than the other variations through their most effective range motion. So does it work? Now, it doesn't work.

Andy Baker: 11:35

The quads specifically, as well as, say, a high bar squat, but the high bar squat in general uses less weight and it doesn't work other muscle groups quite as well as the low bar squat in general uses less weight and it doesn't work other muscle groups quite as well as the low bar squat does. So that's why the low bar was chosen. It doesn't mean a high bar squat is a bad exercise. It just means that for a novice, we think that a low bar squat is the best way to go for those reasons. It's going to work more muscle mass and allow you to use more weight, which are important things for a novice to do in terms of it, because the novice program doesn't use a lot of exercises.

Andy Baker: 12:09

So we're looking at what the exercises that we do use. We want them to work more muscle efficiently, and so on a low bar squat you get a lot of quads not as good as a high bar, but you still get a lot. A lot of quads. You get a lot of hamstring, a lot of gluten, a lot of quads. You get a lot of hamstring, a lot of gluten, a lot of adductor, and so we like to develop all of those things with just a single exercise, which is the way a beginner should do it, as opposed to where we would do. Let's say, we want to work the legs with leg extensions, leg curls, an adductor machine and RDLs or something. That's an inefficient way for a novice to build muscle mass and strength when you could basically develop all of those things with a single exercise.

Andy Baker: 12:53

That is also going to increase force production to a much higher degree. So that's why the low bar is recommended for a novice and then as a, as a trainee progresses and his the goals become more specific to that person. Then you look at, not just on squats but every exercise, branching out your exercise selection to more you know uh, meet whatever your individual goals and needs are. So that's where that comes from.

Philip Pape: 13:19

Yeah, yeah. And before we get to that cause, I love that. If you were writing start, if you were inventing a starting strength today it never existed, you'd never heard of any of that Would you still pick the low bar squat even if equipment wasn't an issue? So, in other words, safety squat bars are just as common as barbells, um, kabuki bars, whatever. Is there anything you would? Would you make a change today?

Andy Baker: 13:41

Not really, because if you do, it just muddies the water for people. You know it depends on whether you're when you're talking about providing information. Are you providing information to an individual or are you providing individual to the masses, to a large group of people? And and to you know and I get an. You know this is always hard when you're writing, when you're doing like what I do and you're trying to do articles or podcasts or whatever. You know this is always hard when you're writing, when you're doing like what I do and you're trying to do articles or podcasts or whatever, there's always a million different caveats and exceptions to everything that you're going to say, and it's it's hard to say anything without you know wanting to provide all those caveats and exceptions to everything, but then what happens is everybody thinks that they're the exception.

Philip Pape: 14:23

Right, so it's.

Andy Baker: 14:24

So, in terms of just now, I can tell you in practice, having walked a million people through you know, like a like a novice program, there are plenty of people, especially with my in-gym clients, who tend to be much older, who from day one cannot do a low bar squat. They and it's it's because of the grip issue. They just and if you've never worked with adults in their 50s and 60s and 70s I mean it's 50-50 at best whether somebody's going to be able to get a bar into the low bar position and you don't want to force it down there. I mean some things can be stretched.

Andy Baker: 14:59

Sometimes people have mobility issues that can be improved with time, but sometimes those issues with your you know you get older men and stuff in there with very arthritic shoulders and that sort of thing those are that's not really that improvable. So you're going to have to find a place on their back where they can put the bar and squat it. And so you're going to have, if you, if you do this stuff in person with people, you're going to have a whole bunch of your clients, especially if you're working with older adults, that are going to be high bar squatting from day one and are never going to low bar squat because they cannot get the bar into that position, and trying to force it into that position is only going to do damage to them from an injury perspective. So sometimes those mobility issues improve over time, yes, but sometimes they don't, and so it's not an issue that you necessarily want to force.

Andy Baker: 15:45

And so, in practice, you're going to have a whole lot of people, uh, that are going to wind up, you know, doing high bar squat or even like a safety bar squat or something like that, from day one, you know, and so that's, uh, that's one of those things, and that's that's where the importance of and and and rip went to in starting strength. Rip went to great pains not to just provide a program in there but explain certain things that would help a coach who can take the information and think on his feet about how to make these adjustments there are. He went to great pains to making sure that people understood things like the relationship to where the bar sits on your shoulders or your back and where it is relative to your midfoot.

Andy Baker: 16:32

Well, when you understand that, you can tailor a squat to anybody, right, and so, um, principal first principles Yep, right, you do have, and so you need to understand the whole thing and the bigger picture rather than just doing what people do, which is flip to the back of the book and find the program and go, okay, I'm going to do this and oh, I can't. Low bar squat, what do I do? Well, if you understood the whole model of the pains that they went to to explain you know how and why squats are performed, the way that they are, um, and how to do them and how to coach them, then you will learn that you know the high bar versus low bar thing. It kind of exists on a spectrum as well. Not everybody is a pure high bar squatter with the bar way up on top of their traps, nor are they a pure low bar squatter with it. You know much further down across the spine of their scapula and that some people may be in between.

Andy Baker: 17:25

But as long as you understand that relationship to where does the bar sit relative to its position over the middle of the foot, then you can put people into a squat that's going to work for them and it may be kind of a tweener, a little bit of a kind of between high bar and low bar squat that feels right for them, that maximizes and gives them the best leverage, but isn't going to force a range of motion on their shoulders that they can't do, and that that position on their back may change over time.

Andy Baker: 17:53

They may be able to get the bar lower. They may start out low and it needs to go higher because it's causing problems, and then you, as the coach, know how to adjust the rest of the squat in order to accommodate where the bar is going to be on there. A big mistake that people make in this high bar versus low bar thing is they'll read the book and they'll go well, I can't do low bar squat because that hurts. And so they'll put the bar in a high bar position and then continue to use low bar mechanics for the rest of the squat.

Andy Baker: 18:22

And you can't do that Because then if you're trying to keep a more horizontal back angle and use a lot of hip drive and you've got the bar and high bar, you're creating a moment arm where that barbell is getting way forward to the midfoot and that's not a good position to be in.

Andy Baker: 18:37

Likewise, if you have the bar in low bar position and you're trying to keep a very vertical torso and you're not understanding why you can't get to depth, well, it's because if you get to depth you're going to fall over backwards because the weight is now so far behind your midfoot that you can't balance it anymore, and so understanding that relationship between bar and midfoot really solves this problem. So you're just trying to get the bar in the right spot for each person, not necessarily getting so wrapped up in whether is it in high bar or is it low bar or is it kind of somewhere in between, and then just getting people set up in the right squat that's good for them, and using those kind of those physics principles that are outlined in the book, those very basic physics principles, to keep that barbell in balance over the midfoot so that they can squat strong but also squat safely.

Philip Pape: 19:29

Yeah, and I'll say anybody who hasn't read starting strength, it is worth looking at the biomechanics charts where they explain all that, also the 30 something page chapter on squats, and actually sit and take notes and start from the you know foot stance and doing it without a bar, and go through that whole process and then get a coach. Once you've tried that for a little bit because you still are not are going to be missing some things. Yeah, people's arms are different lengths. There's so many different reasons. I was talking to my, you know, tony. He was in the group Tony Perry. I'll give him a shout out, cause he he wanted me to send some questions your way too, but he's now maxing, or he's now hitting PRS on his high bar because he switched to it because of his, uh, soreness in the elbow.

Philip Pape: 20:08

As I joined a doctor a doctor, you know I myself went to kind of a between high bar and low bar because of my shoulder, and yet now I'm like, should I just go to the safety squat bar? After seeing your graph, it's like it's not that big of a difference, right, so? But at the end of the day, what you said about the bar path and being over midfoot once you understand that, you can then understand the eye gaze, you understand where squat shoes might be helpful, you understand, like you know, where the knees go and the different squats, because sometimes there'll be more forward and the more upright squats and such. I mean you kind of figure that out over time. So a lot of this which I've learned from you, andy no-transcript.

Andy Baker: 21:09

And then, like you said, understanding individual anthropometry I've been low bar squatting for over 20 years. I've never had an issue with any of the stuff that people regularly have issues with. I've never had shoulder inflammation, I've never had elbow inflammation. I've never had a torn adductor. You know some of those, uh, the most common problems that we see from low bar squatting. I've never had that. But I can't use just my own experience as a lifter and carry that over to a coach and and uh, or in my role as a coach and I have to recognize that certain people are going to and you can do the other assumption that everybody makes is that if my elbows are hurting, my shoulders are hurting or whatever, I'm doing something wrong, that I'm making an egregious form mistake, and if I could fix this, that may be the case and that's why coaching is important you may be making a mistake. There are some very common mistakes that people make in low bar that will exacerbate all of those injuries. I'd say the most common one is probably carrying way too much of the bar weight in the hands. So people have in their head that the low bar is much lower than it actually is and so they've got that bar seated actually well below the spine of the scapula and what happens is, in order to accommodate that, they're either having to bend way over a much more horizontal back angle than what we would like, or, if they try to keep the torso more vertical and what's kind of a more natural or more aesthetically pleasing looking squat, is that they wind up carrying a lot of the weight of the bar in their hands, as opposed to the whole weight of the bar in their hands, as opposed to the whole weight of the barbell sitting on their back. And that's one of the places that we try to get people on. Day one is kind of where they could kind of loosen the fingers off the bar and the bar still pinned to their back, so they're not actually carrying load in their hands. Because if you are, that's going to drive this area in here, nuts shoulders, it's not your shoulders and elbows aren't going to hold up to that. So, getting the bar higher if people are carrying the bar too low and carrying it in their hands and getting that into the proper place Some people are, especially smaller guys.

Andy Baker: 23:17

They tend to want to pull their hands way too far in and it's like they're under so much tension while they're squatting. It's like, yeah, if you do enough reps like that, enough days per week, you're, you're holding a very, very forceful isometric contraction there. You know it could lead to some some elbow or shoulder, you know discomfort and it's like you know, teaching people. It's not really about where your hands are, it's about your shoulder blades. It's about keeping that really tight upper back, really retracting those shoulder blades with some people call packing. You know you're taking all the skin and muscle and fat on your upper back and really pulling it in tight and really building a good shelf for that bar to sit on. The hands work to just kind of reinforce those tight shoulder blades. But you can keep the tight shoulder blades and move your hands out a little bit in order to take a little pressure off the elbows.

Andy Baker: 24:09

And a lot of people don't they have this idea that their hands need to be drawn in just absolutely where it's. It's like if you pulled their fingers off the bar they would just come apart, like you know, like a cartoon. You know cause they're, they're wound up so tight underneath that. So tight is good, we don't want to be loose under the bar, but understanding what is the role of the hands, the role of the hands is to reinforce the tightness of the upper back, not to have the hands tight on the bar just for the sake of having the hands tight on the bar.

Andy Baker: 24:37

So a lot of people just don't understand big picture of why things the way, that they are the same thing with the thumbs around the bar versus thumbs over the top of the bar. You know a lot of people don't. The reason why you know it's often coached to have the thumbs over the top of the bar instead of gripped around the bar is because that makes it harder to hold the weight in your hands and we're trying to teach the lifter to pin the bar to your back. Pin the bar to your back, pin the bar to your back with your hands Don't hold the weight in your hands and so by eliminating the thumbs it almost it mechanically prevents them from holding a lot of the bar weight in their hands. It forces them to just pin the bar to their back and that keeps a higher percentage of the bar weight, you know, just on their torso instead of in their hand, no-transcript. And when you have a good, clear, big picture, understanding of that, then it allows you to manipulate them in order to fit you, as opposed to just say, well, I got to do it this way, I got to do it this way.

Andy Baker: 25:42

And there's so many people that get involved in this world that are just so obsessive, compulsive about things to their own detriment, and they don't even really understand why it is they're doing what they're doing. And so when you, when you don't have the big picture understanding, then you don't know how to manipulate the variables to create a good squat for yourself or for the lifter that you coach, you're just, you're just blindly following this model, and the model is to get you into a good. It's like one of the things of a model, one of the analogies that I use, and this is true of programming and it's true of uh, of, of, uh. You know technique models, if you want to call it that, or is that. It's kind of it's like a hand-drawn map for somebody. You know, if I draw you a very detailed hand-drawn map, um, of how to get somewhere, how to go somewhere, that's going to get you really, really close to the destination, if it's accurate, but it may not account for every pothole in the road, every puddle every log that fell.

Philip Pape: 26:44

You know what I'm saying.

Andy Baker: 26:45

You're going to have to do some self-navigation on that road. You can't just close your eyes and blindly lock down the road because I drew you a map. You still have to have your eyes open and learn how to navigate some of this stuff. And the same thing is true whether it's a program that somebody writes for you or that you're following, or whether it's a technique model that you're following, is that, yeah, you should try to follow it as best as you can, but you still have to do some individual adaptation along the way to make it fit you and realize what you can manipulate and what you can't. And that makes it really easy and it undoes a lot of this kind of obsessive, compulsive thinking.

Andy Baker: 27:17

Makes it really easy and it undoes a lot of this kind of obsessive, compulsive thinking and it undoes some of the anxiety about having to switch from a low bar to a high bar, which is just, or you know, a safety squat bar or something which to me, even as a starting strength coach which advocates for low bar squatting, I just don't see as that big of a deal in practice for people who are just trying to use this for as a means to get generally stronger and build some muscle mass.

Andy Baker: 27:38

It's just not that. It's just not that big of a deal, especially if you're constantly battling injuries and such like that. Just, I mean, you know as well as I do the one thing that'll derail your progress more than anything else in the jeb it's not your squat technique, it's not your program, it's injury. Injury is the the thing that will set you back weeks, months and years and cause you to never get any headway when you're continuously dealing with the same old injuries over and over again. And so getting somebody where they can train in a way that's pain and injury free is, you know, it's really one of the big picture things you got to take care of.

Philip Pape: 28:21

Yeah, and that's why I wonder how many people start with a low bar and let's say they deal with all the biomechanics and the technique issues you talked about, cause we're maybe talking two audiences at the same time one who maybe hasn't quite learned the low bar squat properly or need to learn some of the things you talked about, like the thumb over grip and others, and then you have folks that are like a lot of folks in your club who came from the starting strength world. They know the low bar squat, they've done it, and then something happens either they get injured or it's just not comfortable anymore. Um, how common do you see people then transition away from the low bar squat due to those issues and maybe even find better results, cause now they've got something that works for them introduce some variations to their programming.

Andy Baker: 28:55

Most people will not just low bar squat all the time. I usually don't remove it from the program, you know, unless there's a need to remove it from the program, like they have an injured adductor or something like that but or if they're, you know they're having the repetitive shoulder and elbow pain and we can't get it fixed. You know, if there's no reason to remove it, I don't just arbitrarily remove it, but I may reduce the frequency of it and introduce other variations for any number of reasons, Some of which just might be preventative. It's just to to, because I know those issues are likely to occur, even if their form is good, and all that kind of stuff I may introduce, like their light day squat, maybe a safe squat bar.

Philip Pape: 29:56

It's simply to eliminate the movement pattern altogether. Right, of course, the cause of the issue, yeah.

Andy Baker: 30:01

Right, and that's what what gets people is is, um, it's not just the low bar squat like in the starting strength program where we're having people squat three days a week heavy. You know that's, that's a short term thing for a novice. You know. I always say you know you're looking at six weeks to six months. You know, with six weeks being really really short on the short side, six months being kind of exceptionally long, most people be it in that three to four month range of how, how long they're going to be able to run or should run the novice phase of the program. But during that short window of time, you know we're having people squat fairly heavy three days a week because they can, they can get away with it and they can, they can add weight to the bar, you know, two to three times a week, um and so, and they can put a lot of poundage on their bar in a very short period of time. They'll make the fastest progress they've ever made. But then you know, once the once the novice gains are realized, you have to. You have to uh, switch your programming methodology.

Andy Baker: 30:55

And squatting with the low bar heavy three days a week is not a good idea and squatting low bar period three days a week may not be a good idea, even if you're using something like a heavy light medium system where you're only going heavy once a week and the other days. It's the frequency that gets people and that's not just true of low bar squats, that would be true of a lot of different lifts. It's it's the frequency that you're exposed to that creates the problems. It's not usually the load, it's the fact that you're low bar squatting three days a week. So you're just hammering away on the exact same tissue in the exact same way in the exact same spot, day after day after day after day, and that's what's. That's what gets people so like, say, reducing.

Andy Baker: 31:38

If you're squatting twice a week and you're going to have your heavy main squat day, be your low bar squat, but then your light day later in the week, maybe that's a safety squat bar so that we're still training that squat pattern. It's not that different from a low bar. In some ways it's not different at all, depending on how you carry the bar, but it allows your shoulders and your elbows to relax and get a break. And maybe that lighter squat day is being paired with your heavy bench day so that you can do your squats first and you're not carrying any of that fatigue over to your bench press. A lot of people and I guarantee there's somebody listening to this they think they're they're they go to, they're doing their bench pressing and they're feeling that elbow tendonitis in their you know, in their elbows while they're bench pressing and they think, well, what am I doing wrong on the bench, like it's like nine times out of say one are you bench pressing?

Andy Baker: 32:29

directly after squatting?

Andy Baker: 32:39

If so, we're going to change that. Or are you bench pressing the day after squatting? And if so, we're going to change that. We're going to bench the day before we squat instead of vice versa, in order so that they're not having to, Because what happens is that the inflammation that's being created in their elbows from the low bar isn't manifesting until they get on the bench, but they attribute it to their bench press because that's just where they feel it, but that's not what's causing it. It's the low bar squat that's causing it. So you know. So just playing with exercise selection, you know, down the road in order to minimize that kind of stuff and say stay healthy and stay injury free is just smart programming.

Philip Pape: 33:16

Yeah, you know, the more I've gone through this with some of your programs, like Conjugate, your bodybuilding program, others even volume-based programs where they have developmental variations of the lift and talk to a bunch of great coaches on this show is the variety has massive benefits. Once you get past that point, even for reasons you may not be aware of, because of the fatigue versus stimulus over time issues, especially as we get older, where things are just cascading across days, like you said, you might be doing your low bar Monday and then your next upper body. You have a developmental variation of the squat, you mix it up or testing the one RMs on conjugate right and you go to a. You rotate literally every week. There's something to be said for that Cause. I know there's dogma in the world that they come from with starting strength, which a wrong audience cause. That's beginners Right. And if, if you then extrapolate that, okay, so the next 10 years I'm going to do the same three lifts over and over, it's not going to be sustainable For most people.

Andy Baker: 34:10

That's true. And exactly what you're saying for strategic variety is kind of what I call it, where the variety is strictly there for the purposes of fatigue management, and that's both systemic fatigue, you know, just manipulating the exercises so that you're using, like with the conjugate program, like on your max effort day, where you're. You know, this week we're doing a rack pull and it's 650 pounds, and then the next week we're doing a front squat which is 300 pounds, like that's there strictly to kind of mitigate some of that systemic fatigue, but also the local fatigue which is not doing the same movement hard and heavy, over and over and over again, because it's the same. I call them hotspots, but it's basically the same little, it's not just the same tissue, but the same little spot, the same little point on the tissue where it's the weakest or the most vulnerable is being stressed over and over and over and over again and not getting any time to recover from that stress. Even just switching from a low bar to a high bar is slightly changing where the peak stress is at in the tissue, and I don't necessarily know where it's at in every single lift, but I know it's different, right, so I know the peak stress in a max effort, low bar squat is in a different spot than it is in the high bar squat and in a different spot than it is in the low bar squat and in a different place than it is in a deadlift. And so by kind of varying up those movements week to week on your heaviest days, you're minimizing that stress being all directed in the same exact place every single time.

Andy Baker: 35:44

The best analogy and I have to give credit to Matt Winning for this, for pointing it out I don't know if he was the first, I'm not a big, necessarily Matt Winning guy, but still I have to give credit for it because he's the one where I heard it and I was like that's perfect analogy. It's just like rotating the tires on your car. Why do we rotate the tires on your car? Because, if you're and if you want to take that analogy even further, what if we kept the tires, all four tires, in the same spot and all we did was high speed left turns in a circle, right, that's where would the where be? Well, it would be in one spot, it would be in a, it would be in one spot and it would be in a predictable spot, right, because the peak amount of stress on those tires is in the same spot all the time. But how so?

Philip Pape: 36:25

how do you accelerate?

Andy Baker: 36:26

It would accelerate because you're going fast, right, and it just like with you when you're going heavy. That's like the same analogy is going fast, so you're applying peak stress to the same area over and over and over again. Well, how do you mitigate that? Well, make some right-hand turns, mix the right-hand turns in with the left-hand turns. Rotate your tires every few months so that it's a little bit. The back tires get moved to the front and left gets moved to right. So you're mixing it up a little bit and it's just a small amount of variation like that, you know, can save your tires a lot of wear and tear, right. So it's, that's the same way to the tire.

Andy Baker: 37:03

Analogy is the same way to think about the different tissues on your body is, if you're going hard and heavy frequently, all the time on the same lifts, it's going, you're going to wear out those spots. So, figuring out a way to reduce frequency, introduce variation. There's a lot of different ways you can go about it Managing, mixing up the loads, the intensities, that sort of thing. That's going to save you a lot. And again, it mitigates against injury and overuse, which is the thing that derails your training more than anything. So I'd rather have somebody injury free on a, maybe a what is on paper a slightly suboptimal program, versus being on the optimal program and being hurt all the time.

Andy Baker: 37:47

Right that that makes it not an optimal program it cancels out the optimality and it made and it differs across individuals, right like, like what's, because again we get into the anthropometry thing. So even with differences in anthropometry I mean the frequency and the exercise selection and all that that may work for well for one guy is not necessarily going to work for the next guy. And and even even not just limb length and things like that, but even you know even the size of a guy's traps and upper back. I mean, if you get a guy that's a real thick power lifter type guy with real thick, big traps and big, thick upper back, versus a guy that's 165 pounds, that's not as developed or whatever. I mean that can be different as well. Have trouble with low bar, say, one guy doesn't have enough thickness to do it, right, he's got, he just doesn't have enough meat back there. I mean he can, but it makes it harder when you don't have, when there's nothing to pack, pack together and create a shelf for that bar to sit on. You know that the skinny guy may have trouble with it, but so also is the big, thick guy that's got monster traps and a big thick upper back and all that. He may also have trouble getting the bar down there. So you. You know you just can't force it with everybody and you have to kind of, you know, understand the bigger model and then just find, find the spot on the back and the variation that's going to work best for them. Yeah, go ahead. I was going to say just, I mean, this is just an aside, but I was kind of terms of the preventative thing, where I was talking about changing exercise selection slightly, not just in response to a problem, but in order to potentially prevent a problem that you know is likely to occur.

Andy Baker: 39:31

I do that a lot with certain athletes. A lot with certain athletes Probably more than any other sport of athletes that I've worked with is probably swimmers and baseball players. If I work with a pitcher that's a young kid or whatever that's got a really good arm and that's pitching a lot and maybe has a chance to go play college ball or maybe, you know, get drafted minor league or whatever. Like you have to protect their arm. As a coach, as a strength coach, yes, you want to get them bigger and stronger and all that kind of stuff is. Have them start having shoulder and elbow pain on their pitching arm. It'll get you.

Andy Baker: 40:18

I mean, you're one you can't, as a coach, be responsible for creating problems in the gym that are then carrying over to their sport. That's regardless of any sport. But like stuff like that, where you're you don't have a lot of leeway and the thing is is like with inflammation, tendonitis and things like that once it gets set in it's very hard to get rid of. You know, especially on a kid. That's like a pitcher that's throwing all the time the way that they do now, where they're not just. You know, it's not like they just have a game on Saturday.

Andy Baker: 40:49

These kids pitch all the time. They're going to private lessons all the time. So that arm is under a tremendous amount of wear and tear and of none of those, those types of factors are under your control as a coach. So you know it's very rare. If I get a kid of that caliber which I do get occasionally I'm probably going to have them safety squat bar right right off the bat, because I don't even want the potential of low bar squat fucking around with their shoulder or their elbow.

Andy Baker: 41:16

Yeah, just get the arms out of it, right, if it's just a general guy, that's, you know, 35, and comes in it's like, hey, I just want to build some muscle and get stronger. Then it's like, yeah, we're going to try low bar, you know, and if it doesn't work later and you start getting some elbow and shoulder pain, no big deal, we'll switch it up, you know and figure out. But somebody like that where you've got a higher caliber athlete or something where you have to really protect them, in those cases it may not even be worth the risk and it may just be well to start a risk mitigation game right off the bat and particular I have special interest in, and Tony and I were talking about how it places a little bit more stress on your back, actually in a weird way with a yoke, where you find you can't you know you can't push as much through the legs and the loads a little bit less than your low bar, but also there's this extra back element.

Philip Pape: 42:12

Is there some sort of rig or special equipment for an athlete where, if they literally just want to use their legs and nothing else, you know what I mean Like, or is that? Is that a hip squat or a belt squat? You know what I mean?

Andy Baker: 42:22

Yeah, that would be a belt squat, which may be appropriate in certain cases. I don't really put a. I put a belt squat kind of in the same place that I would like a leg press or something it's not like a six or seven, I'm not.

Andy Baker: 42:33

I'm not against them, but I don't think that they're quite as good of a tool. As you know, I like the idea of the force being generated from the legs and traveling up, you know, through the back and through the core, if you will, through the abs into the torso and up into the bar. I like that longer kinetic chain. I think there's a lot of value on that for most people in terms of really developing, you know, real practical full body strength. I think that longer kinetic chain of you know, from from the feet all the way up into the bar has a lot of value. You lose a lot of that with a with a belt squat or you know a leg press, certainly, um, you know, but do they have their place? For sure, if you have a guy with a bad injury, uh, to the upper body, where you know, or the back you know a guy with a bad injury to the upper body or the back, a guy with a bad back injury, something like that, then for sure a belt squat or something like that is entirely appropriate. The safety squat bar there's a learning curve to it, for sure. I kind of liken it to and again, it kind of depends on the person and where the bar exactly sits and even what they choose to do with the handles. You watch some guys kind of push up a little bit as they go down and come up. Some guys pull down a little bit, you know. So where does that bar sit? You can even flip it upside down to make it really hard if you want to. It's more like a front squat there, but it's you know, it's.

Andy Baker: 43:53

To me and this is just my own personal feedback from it, no-transcript my subjective feedback on it is it's kind of a tweener in between high bar and low bar. The weight that I'm able to do kind of reflects that. You know. It kind of is the weight I can squat on. Safety squat bar is kind of in between what I can do. You know high bar versus low bar. So I think that's an indicator to look at.

Andy Baker: 44:40

And then you know, I would say, depends on how you want to look at this.

Andy Baker: 44:43

Is it a downside or is it an upside to the safety squat bar is the stress that it places on the back and the fact that you do have to develop a very strong upper back in order to safety squat bar big weight, because it does want to roll you.

Andy Baker: 44:56

It does want to kind of collapse your upper body and roll you over. So if you're not you know, if you're not paying attention to that, if you're not you know, holding everything tight from the, from the waist up, and paying attention to that, it's easy for the heavy safety squat bar to get to fold you in half and you can kind of feel that when it gets heavy, you can feel that that that pressure of wanting to fold you up and you have to resist that at the same time that you're coming up, which is an element that is there on a barbell squat but not quite as pronounced as it is on a safety squat bar. So you know, in terms of, is that a pro or a con? It depends on the context. I happen to think that safety squat bar squatting, getting really strong on a safety squat bar has tremendous carryover to a barbell because of the fact that once you get on the barbell it almost seems easier after the safety squat bar, because of the fact that you've had to learn.

Philip Pape: 45:50

I totally agree with that yeah.

Andy Baker: 45:51

Your back and your core, if you will, and everything has gotten so much stronger that the barbell it feels I don't want to say feel easy, but it almost is like you're squatting on a machine or something, because you're not having to fight that tendency of that bar to want to fold you in half. So I think it has tremendous carryover to the squat. I also think it has tremendous carryover to the deadlift because I think in order to get a big safety squat, bar squat, you have to get, you have to get very, very strong in the mid back, and I think that that that's a positive thing. Um, as an assistance exercise, if you wanted to call it an assistance exercise for the deadlift, I think safety box safety squat, bar squatting is right up there, almost at the top of the list in terms of in terms of improving deadlift strength. So that's that's a. That's a pro as as a con. You know, deadlift strength, so that's a pro as a con. For people that are less athletic and maybe don't already have that upper body kind of the upper back or core strength or whatever you want to call it. It could be a con because then the limiting factor on the squat is no longer the legs and the hips.

Andy Baker: 46:52

It's like a front squat. It's like a front squat. It's like why is a front squat? In theory, is a front squat a really good squat variation for building up the quads? In theory, yes, for where you know the, where, where the bar sits and the fact that other muscle groups aren't as involved in the quads are having to do all the work and torso is very vertical and you can get a really full range of motion on the quads by getting deep, because you're not having to fight the resistance from the hamstrings and all that. So in theory, the front squat is a really great quad developer. In practice it's not always, because the limiting factor is almost never quad strength. For most people it's the rack position.

Andy Baker: 47:30

So, in order, from a hypertrophy standpoint, in order for an exercise to be considered a good hypertrophy movement, the limiting factor needs to be the target muscle that's being trained. So if you're doing front squats for the development of your quads but the quads are not what's limiting you and you're being limited by your ability to rack the bar or even just hold the bar upright and you're failing because you're getting doubled over at the bottom of the squat or halfway up on the squat, then it makes it not such a good exercise for that purpose. And so the safety squat bar in general is not as challenging as a front squat in order to maintain position, but it's more challenging than a barbell for most people, and so in some ways it could be considered not as good of an exercise if the limiting factor is that. But it's like everything else, though. If you start it, if you're new to it, and you start it in a conservative spot, you know with a weight that you can do and do in good form, and then you load it progressively, but conservatively.

Andy Baker: 48:30

Everything that needs to get stronger is going to get stronger. I mean your legs are going to get stronger, you know, at the same pace as your. You know your abs and your upper back and all that stuff that needs to be strengthened in order to. So it's all going to get stronger if you train it. But at the beginning there may be a little bit of a learning curve for people, because the limiting factor is not the legs and the hips but instead is the you know, the upper back and the ability to hold that weight. So you know, that's just that's. That's one programming consideration.

Philip Pape: 48:57

Yeah, yeah. And then there are a million ways to vary these things like um, pause squats I learned from you with the safety squat, bar or plat squats. You can really hit the quads really hard with those. One question that comes up then okay, if you've got high bar, safety bar, low bar, they're kind of clustered together. They each have their not pros and cons, but different things that you need to adapt and get stronger with the different muscle groups, like we were talking about, to put a positive spin on it. And then you shift a little bit over and people are thinking okay, in the absence of low bar squats and again shout out to Tony for this question you still want maybe to develop the part of your hip musculature that's maybe not getting hit as much with the low bar that you have it out of your program. Would you then supplement with leg press, hack squats, box squats? What's your approach to that for folks who are just not low-barring anymore?

Andy Baker: 49:41

Yeah, it all just depends on the goal. I mean, certainly, the thing that the low bar really hits well and a lot of people. Part of the reason you know it gets hit hard is because this is where a lot of the injuries occur is the adductors, which know, which is on the end, the big meat on the inside of the leg that then wraps around to the back of the of the leg and kind of attaches on the, on the underside of the pelvis, in the in the rear. A lot of people mistake uh, what is an adductor injury for a hamstring strain? Most people cause it, they, they, it the adductors. You think of them on the inside of your leg, which they are, but they're hip extensors and they go around to the back and so adductors get hit hard in a low bar squat and that is one of the most common areas where you see a bad injury on low bar squat. That's the most common bad injury on a low bar squat is a torn adductor. They hurt like a motherfucker and they take forever to heal and so but that's, that tissue is being it's being stretched a lot at the bottom and it's it's being really heavily engaged in a lot of that hip drive element from a, from a low bar squat, is coming off of a rebound, not just of the hamstrings but off of the adapters, and so that's an element that you that you somewhat lose the with other squat variations. You know I'm not a big fan of like the adapter machine or something like that. So you're you know you're losing that If I was having somebody say strictly high bar, you know I would certainly make sure and I do some of this with athletes anyways I would make sure that we're doing things like RDLs or something like that. That really hits a lot of the of of hamstring. But you know for, for that really hits a lot of the of of hamstring. But you know for for most people, just for your average guy looking to, just I'm just trying to get stronger and build muscle mass. You know the mechanical differences between high bar and low bar. Are they different? Yes, are they that different where it's just going to affect the regular guy trying to get bigger and stronger? Not, not really.

Andy Baker: 51:35

You know I I took a picture. I think I put it on my Instagram picture or video. I'm not sure how long ago it was. It feels like maybe six months ago, probably been longer, and it was a picture of me at the bottom of a low bar squat and then another side-by-side a picture of me at the bottom of a high bar squat and you can barely tell the difference right. I mean, the the back angle is slightly different. You know the every the knee angle is slightly different, but they're not that different now they are more, they are more they're they're they're more different on certain people, certain body types may may exhibit more difference between high and low bar, but, like on me there, it wasn't that, it wasn't't that different. Now it's different enough, even though to the naked eye it doesn't look that like that much.

Andy Baker: 52:21

But I can still low bar squat a lot more than I can high bar squat, even though that I train high bar now more than I do low bar. But I so there is difference in the fact that you are can squat a lot more weight. You know it's a different movement You're bringing in and the reason you can squat more weight is because you're bringing in more muscle mass into the movement. So the low bar allows you to squat that heavier weight. But even all that being said, functionally carry over to everyday life. General leg size, that sort of thing. Are you losing that much between switching from one variation to the other? Not really If you're highly competitive in a given sport.

Andy Baker: 52:57

Are you competing in powerlifting? Are you missing something by not low barring? Yes, because the whole idea in that sport is to squat as much weight as humanly possible and low bar is going to allow you to do that. If you're bodybuilding, are you missing something by exclusively low bar squatting? Yes, most likely, if that's your only variation that you're going to have in your program for your legs is a low bar squat, you know. Are you potentially missing something? My answer for most people and again this varies by anthropometry, but for most people, yeah, you're going to be missing something.

Andy Baker: 53:32

Because I know, like, for me and I was never a prolific squatter best squats I ever did was, like you know, around 550. I think I did a triple with like 535 or something like that. So not not world-class at all by not even impressive by today's standards, but not weak, um, and it's, it's definitely stronger than average. Your average guy did squat in the gym, um, but visually, you know, my quads were not developed, you know not, not really, I mean, are they bigger than the average guy that doesn't squat? Yes, but were they for somebody who had spent that much time under the bar and could squat five, 50, you would think you would see a bigger set of quads than what I had. Um, what I did have was a gigantic ass and a gigantic set of adductors. So that's so. All of my leg mass was basically I always I've made that joke a bunch of times I was all ass and adductors, but quads not so developed.

Andy Baker: 54:24

Now a guy with a slightly different build may be receiving a little bit more of that stress, you know, in his quads and it's not like my quads didn't get work. I mean they still got sore and all that kind of stuff didn't get work. I mean they still got sore and all that kind of stuff. So I know that quads are getting work, but from just a purely aesthetic standpoint of you know, like if you were competing in bodybuilding or whatever, you know, I got much more development in my quads when I started switching to predominantly high bar and safety, squat bar, squatting and less low bar, which is to be expected. You know I wasn't that strong at them when I first started, which was another indicator that they maybe weren't doing all that much work in the low bar squat relative to the posterior chain, especially the adductors, them relative. Some of that's just technique, getting used to the technique and all that. But I'm a pretty good athlete so the technique changes aren't necessarily that hard for me in the gym.

Andy Baker: 55:26

For some people it's like reinventing the wheel. I mean, if you work with guys that just aren't good athletes and aren't good natural lifters, slight changes in technique it's like, oh my God, it's like you're teaching them to, you know, a whole new sport or something. Whereas a good natural athlete can switch between a high bar and a low bar squat, no problem. But athlete or guys that aren't good natural athletes have a harder time with that kind of stuff. And that's one of the reasons, like rip talked about in the in starting strength about one of the reasons if you go back to the early earlier in starting strength, about one of the reasons if you go back to the early earlier editions of starting strength, there were some variations of the novice program which had front squatting on the middle day. So you would, you know, squat regular back squat on Mondays and Fridays and then the middle day was like a front squat and the you know the idea was to, you know, to lessen the load a little bit or whatever.

Andy Baker: 56:13

But the kind of the challenge with that is that those are two fundamentally different movement patterns. One, you're trying to teach a guy to stay bent over and drive with his hips. The other, you're trying to teach a guy to stand straight up and, you know, come straight up with the legs and almost push the hips forward and you're bad natural athletes, which a lot of your clients are going to be. If you're a coach, you're just you're not going to be always working with very gifted people. It completely confuses the movement pattern in their head. Now, if you have a guy like a college athlete or something, that's not going to happen. They're not going to be confused. Their mechanics and their proprioceptive awareness and all that that's not going to be confusing to them.

Andy Baker: 56:49

To switch between a high bar and a low bar or a front squat All three of those could be taught at the same time and they'll immediately know how to differentiate between how to do.

Andy Baker: 56:56

All three of those could be taught at the same time and they'll immediately know how to differentiate between how to do all three of those. But if you take a less talented, less gifted person and you try to teach a multiple squat variations at the very beginning. It's like you're trying to teach them three different sports at once. It totally doesn't make sense in their head and they'll start trying to do low bar stuff on their front squats and front squats on their low bar and it's a mess in their head. Bar stuff on their front squats and front squats on their low bar, and it's just it's a mess in their head. So that's just something that you learn as a coach and something that Rip identified pretty early of let's not confuse the average non-athletic person with too many different cues for too many similar movements, Cause it just muddies the water for them a little bit.

Philip Pape: 57:30

Yeah, there's a lot there, eddie, a lot there, eddie, but yeah.

Andy Baker: 57:35

That's what I do, I do. I stream of consciousness.

Philip Pape: 57:37

So no, no, it's all good. I'm trying to figure out what to follow up on Cause I know you asked something.

Andy Baker: 57:42

I know you asked something about leg presses and hack squats, but I don't remember now.

Philip Pape: 57:45

You covered it, you covered it. You always cover it in your own way, which is good. So I feel like to listen to you. But but developing those movement patterns I mean the, the, the low bar squats technical enough, like you said, for a beginner to not have to throw in yet another thing to learn. And but then going back to the argument of variation, I mean again, you talked about not only strength but size. We know a lot of strong guys who don't necessarily have the most well-rounded physique, or maybe it's asymmetric, if you want to use that term, like you said, ass and adductors, and what are the things you work with when you coach and in the club and everything else is the everyday Joe who wants to be strong but also look good. Yeah, there are guys who want to push their lifts. We also want to, you know, look healthy and have decent physique.

Andy Baker: 58:26

Yeah, I just call it. You know, small B bodybuilders you know, not competitive, not not up on stage with the spray tan and all that, but basically training for as much muscle mass you know as possible so that it to maximize their, their physique, for their, for their genetics, within reason.

Philip Pape: 58:43

Right, which closes the loop on the whole discussion of squatting being one, one type being superior or not. It really depends. And, like you said, if you're a power lifter, olympic lifter or something, it's going to be one thing, something that's going to be one thing. If you're an everyday guy that's trying to be well-rounded, enjoy the variety. Like I think there's a fun, you know, mental aspect to getting to try all of these things. Um, and even, you know, using blocks and periods to kind of go through one. You know, if you want to do five, three, one and stick with one lift for a while but then vary the reps, great. Then you go to the bodybuilding for a while. Maybe try that. You know it's good stuff. Andy, I know we don't have a lot of time left. Are you open to some rapid fire questions about this topic? And by rapid fire we can keep the answers a little shorter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine, I'll try to time myself.

Andy Baker: 59:24

No, no, no, it's cool. The problem is is, once a thought gets into my head, if I don't say it, I'll lose it.

Philip Pape: 59:38

It doesn't come to say so all right. So what's the most underrated variation of squat in your opinion?

Andy Baker: 59:44

Oh, you know what I'm going to say here? The 14 inch camber bar squat. Okay, the rackable camber bar for that. So, that's the, the, the curved. No, no, no, that's like I call that the. Well, yeah, different people call it. That's like a Buffalo bar, which is like the, the, the Duffalo bar, whatever they call it, like the the curved bar, where the the it's the 14 inches the weights are basically sitting at, like hip level um, when you're standing there.

Andy Baker: 1:00:15

That is a hard version, but that is a um. That is a great version to squat with. Um. I think it's very underrated for quad development and the reason I say that is because it's similar to a front squat, which is it doesn't look anything like a front squat but the weight tends to swing out a little bit in front of you, kind of like where the bar would sit if you were front squatting it. You have to keep a more vertical torso and you can't really hip drive on that. You can cheat a little hip drive into a like.

Andy Baker: 1:00:48

So a guy that's, let's say, just trying to work his quads right, I little hip drive into a high like. So a guy that's, let's say, just trying to work his quads right I have to watch this because of my bill. When I'm just trying to really work my quads, when I'm not trying to, there's a difference between working your quads and trying to squat a heavy weight right. So when I'm trying to squat a heavy weight, I'm going to introduce techniques and squat with leverages that allow me to squat the most weight. So that's going to be low bar and I'm going to introduce a lot of hip drive into that movement. If I'm trying to work my quads, I'm going to high bar or safety squat bar or camber bar or something like that and I'm going to intentionally try to reduce the amount of hip drive that I get into that movement, because that is the reason you hip drive is to recruit hamstrings and glutes and such into the movement and I'm trying to not do that.

Andy Baker: 1:01:30

The camber bar does not allow you to hip drive very much. What will happen if you try it is your hips keep going up but the bar just sits there. But you really have to drive straight up through the bar and you have to keep a more vertical torso, kind of like with a front squat. But where the bar sits it's so much more comfortable. It's not like a front squat where the whole time you're fucking fighting that rack position. Or if you're doing it like I do with straps, you're battling with the straps or moving around. And if you don't have the mobility to do a really, really good front squat, then they're a challenge constantly because of the rack position and then it makes them not a great quad developer because the limiting factor is your just ability to hold the weight, whereas the Cambridge bar doesn't have that. It's very, very comfortable to hold.

Andy Baker: 1:02:16

People talk about the instability of it and all that, but I think that I haven't really. Unless you're using shitty form or whatever, the weight doesn't really swing that much. So it does sit comfortably on your back, but it keeps a lot of pressure just on the quads. And every time I do that movement which is not very often, because the bar is a pain in the ass to go get it's 85 pounds. It's hard to carry across the gym and I'm lazy, so I often pick a variation based on how the rack is already set up. So it's like, if safety squat bar is sitting in the rack already on the J hooks, I'm like, oh, I'm safety squat bar squatting today. If the high bar, if the bar bell's in there, yeah, so I'm, I'm all about like, so it's, it's um, but every time I do that lift I'm like why don't I do this more, Like this, like I, like my quads are so pumped and particular where you'll feel it is right, in that area of the quads that is the hardest to develop for most people, which is that, that area, the lowest part of the quads.

Andy Baker: 1:03:20

Okay, the most, the most distal area of the quads, right above, like the knee, which is the part you know if you're training for aesthetics and you're wearing shorts or whatever. That's the part that's visible Right and like you can have big quads. But when that area is like you have turnip quads, so that the quads are really big up top by the hips but small above the knee, you can't really tell that you have jacked quads right. But when you get done with a set on that camber bar, that specific area of the quads is just lit up and I'm like I don't know why I don't do those more and I don't know why I don't prescribe them more to more of my clients that have access to that bar, because it's a very, very underrated tool for quad hypertrophy I think.

Philip Pape: 1:03:57

Well, it's been a while since I got a new bar, so because I've looked at the transformer bar for years, it's just so expensive and it probably gives you something similar, maybe with, depending on which.

Andy Baker: 1:04:12

The cambered bar is the easiest on the shoulders. It is absolutely the easiest bar to squat with on the shoulders because your hands are at your sides. Your hands sit at your side, so it's really, really easy.

Carol: 1:04:20

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency. But from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. Connection he supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 1:05:00

So my next two questions. I think you answered them Best. Variation for quad development Sounds like you like that one for quads.

Andy Baker: 1:05:06

I can't say it's the best. It's definitely unique. It's definitely unique enough to potentially integrate for just for the just for its own sake. It's hard to say what's best, and that's true with any exercise, because you're always trying to find that sweet spot, kind of that nexus between load and the range of motion of the muscle that you're trying to target right, so you can stimulate a muscle really really well with certain exercises, but that just you just don't have the capacity to really load those exercises well, which makes them, you know, not as good.

Andy Baker: 1:05:42

It's kind of like a bench press versus a cable fly. Like a cable fly does it? Does it hit the chest really? Or let's see either. The better example is like an overhead press and a lateral raise. Right, a lateral raise is a good exercise, like it. It hits the side delts really, really hard. What's the problem with it? There You're going to have an inability to load that movement over time, right, and so you can only. So you need to find movements that both stimulate the muscle really really well but that also allow you to progressively load them into the heaviest weights, and so that can be a little bit.

Andy Baker: 1:06:18

That's like the low bar versus high bar thing, right? Yeah, do low bar allow you to use more weight? Yes, are your quads doing more work? Not necessarily Because, yes, you're using more weight weight, but not all of that weight is being done by the quads. You know you're doing. A good portion of that extra load that you're using is adductors, hamstrings, glutes, whatever. So for again, for the beginner, that's appropriate, but for a guy with a very narrow focus in that training session of I'm just trying to apply stress to grow my quads, you know is is a low bar better just because I can squat more weight? Not necessarily, because not all that weight's being done by the quads. You know it's being done with a lot of others. So maybe a high bar is better from that standpoint because, yes, it's using less weight but much more, a higher percentage of that weight, is actually being lifted with the quads.

Philip Pape: 1:07:09

Would you if you, if you had to rank just for quads being lifted with the quads? Would you if you, if you had to rank just for quads? You know, and would you even throw the leg press in there, or hack, squat, or you know a pause variation like which one would if you had to pick one? You know, hack squat.

Andy Baker: 1:07:22

Yeah, I mean of all variations are just like non-barbell stuff um squatting variations.

Philip Pape: 1:07:29

If I had a, if I had a gun to my head and they said A Texas six shooter.

Andy Baker: 1:07:36

You have to go into this bodybuilding contest in 12 weeks and your success or failure will be dependent on the size of your quads. I love these analogies because it will. If you can be honest with yourself, what would you do? I would live and die on the hack squat. Yeah, I think it has probably more more capacity than anything. Talking about strictly quad hypertrophy, it's, it's hard to beat a hack squat. You know there's some downsides to hack squats but, um, in terms of just strictly the hypertrophy of the quads, it's, there's nothing else involved in that movement, which is a downside for a strength athlete who actually does want other muscles involved in that movement low on the platform, narrow ass to grass, full range of motion, slight pause at the bottom is very, very hard to beat that and you can load them super, super heavy, um yep which.

Andy Baker: 1:08:40

So it's very hard to make an argument against a hack squat for just pure quad hypertrophy cool hack squat.

Philip Pape: 1:08:47

I'm saving up for one of those machines at home because those things are damn expensive they are and they and they're good, and don't get a cheap one because they're not worth it. Right, so right right, no, yeah, for sure. So what's the? What's the most common squat mistake that you see?

Andy Baker: 1:09:00

oh, not understanding that relationship between barbell and midfoot. You know they did they, and so they're making changes to the squat without understanding how the changes to the squat are affecting that relationship. And that's the one thing that really can't be compromised with. If you're talking about doing a good, you know there's areas for compromise in all different aspects of the barbell squat. But the one area that really doesn't have any room for compromise not if you're squatting heavy, if you're squatting light, I guess it doesn't probably doesn't matter as much, but that that that barbell has to remain over midfoot and a lot of the changes and manipulations that people make, they do so without understanding how those changes are going to affect that relationship. And so you need to understand the model of a squat from a big picture view and understanding.

Andy Baker: 1:09:51

Okay, when I move the bar up my back, how does that going to affect my torso, my torso angle? You know my back angle. If I move the bar lower on my back, how's that going to affect my, my back angle? You know that sort of thing and and you know, and so if you don't, if you don't understand those, then it may. It makes it harder to make technique adjustments to yourself. So I think that's. I still see that. I see that with some of the guys in the club sometimes, and I'm surprised that I see it because they're like well, I switched to high bar and what they mean by that is well, I just moved the bar two inches up my back, but I changed nothing else.

Andy Baker: 1:10:26

You tried to do everything else the same way and if you think of the balance point, of what is your midfoot, that's a very small area, and so if you're changing the bar on your back by several inches, you're changing that relationship significantly and on a very heavy weight.

Andy Baker: 1:10:44

You're going to find yourself in trouble If you've got the bar and high bar and you're keeping the exact same back angle and you're trying to hip drive out of the bottom and all that. So if you say I'm going to switch to high bar but then you change nothing else, you're kind of in trouble. And the same thing for a guy that wants to try low bar, that you know wants to switch to low bar and then tries to keep all the rest of the mechanics exactly the same, is he's going to have trouble with that squat. It's not going to feel natural to it.

Philip Pape: 1:11:09

Two things about this. First is, like I liked that your answer was a principle as opposed to a tactic, cause I think you know a lot of the answers about a common mistake would be foot stance or some specific tactic, and, like you said, it comes down to the principle from which all potential mistakes derive for every individual. But then, um, would you recommend some sort of like mind body exercise where and I'll tell you from personal experience, trying to find the right position for my shoulder in one session I remember trying like eight different positions for the bar and loading it just so I could see the difference, and that actually taught me a lot just in that moment, something I'd never done before about the differences. Would have you done something like that or recommend it?

Philip Pape: 1:11:49

in terms of, in terms of just like learning, just a learning learning thing, just to understand the midfoot out of the context of just one type of squat, but actually being able to translate it across the different ones, it kind of depends because people are different types of learners.

Andy Baker: 1:12:03

Okay, so some people are going to learn really well by seeing it. Like seeing the diagram, like what they have in starting strength, like seeing the seeing the diagram of the guy squatting from a profile and seeing the line drawn down from the end of the barbell, you know, to the mid point on his foot and seeing how a change in back angle would affect that. Like some people will see that and it will translate. Like they'll understand that and can get it to translate immediately. Like once they understand it intellectually, they can get it to translate on the gym floor. And some people may understand it intellectually and not get it to translate on the gym floor because they're smart but bad athletes. And some people can have it very roughly explained to them and can feel it when it's right and feel it when it's not right. And those are usually your good athletes. Your good athletes don't require a whole lot of instruction. They feel what's right. Naturally, they pick up things on their own with just verbal cues Okay, move the bar a little bit down your back, tighten up your shoulders. Now, when I want you to go down, I want you to lean over just a little bit more, and they understand exactly what that means and they do it perfectly with just a short verbal instruction. So it kind of depends on what type of learner you are. So a lot of I mean.

Andy Baker: 1:13:24

Eventually you have to learn by being under the bar and you have to learn what that feels like and you have to use enough load to where a mistake. You can feel it. If the weight is too light, a lot of people can't like. An empty bar is not enough weight for people to learn with because they don't feel the mistake. If you're a let's say you're a 225 squatter, you're likely not and you're saying I'm trying to work on technique with the. I'm going to go in the gym today with just the bar and I'm going to work on technique. That's not going to work because 45 pounds is not enough weight for you to feel your mistake. You need to feel how wrong it is when you lean over too much and get the bar out over your toes. You can take an empty bar and put the bar out over your toes and you're not going to feel it. You can maybe put 135 on your back and lean over too far and have the bar four to mid toes and you're not going to feel it. You can maybe put 135 on your back and lean over too far and have the bar four to midfoot and not feel it. So you got to have enough load. That's why we're always we're not just when we talk about like we kind of make fun of, like I'm going to have a technique day and I'm just going to do like really lightweight work on technique. We're not just shitting on it Like, oh, you're a pussy or it's not that. It's that. No, it really is not technique training.

Andy Baker: 1:14:35

If you're going with really lightweights, the weight, in order for the technique to be trained, it has to be done with a heavy enough weight for you to really integrate it and really understand what a good rep versus a bad rep feels like.

Andy Baker: 1:14:48

And that's the same in any sport. I mean, if you're trying to teach somebody how to hit, yeah, there's things that you can do, little drills you can do to work on certain things. But if you're not swinging that bat full speed, you know it's not going to be integrated into the mechanics. You know, because doing doing things slow in sport or doing things very light in the gym is not really technique work, because the technique involves the load. That's a part of it and it's, and that lifter barbell system and its relationship to the center of mass and and your balance point over your middle of the foot changes with load. You know. So that that center of mass is not the same at 135 as it is with 315. So you're not really working technique when you're going with very light weights. So it's, if you're going to work technique, it has to be heavy enough for you to actually feel a mistake yeah, fair point.

Philip Pape: 1:15:45

I only asked because it was an accidental thing that I had put myself in, because I couldn't get into a position right and and I was already fairly loaded up after because, like you said, during the warmup you don't even notice Right, and then it starts to hit you and you're like, wait a minute, this isn't quite going to work. Let me shift it. And I noticed from three different variations back to back. It was just a little revelation for me. I'm not, that's how I was curious about that but if, but of course you're going to get fatigued if it's loaded up too.

Andy Baker: 1:16:12

Right, that's true too. Yeah, and there is. I mean, there's always room for self-experimentation with that kind of stuff and you learn. I mean, dave Tate has this kind of philosophy and I somewhat agree with it. I definitely see his point and I somewhat disagree with it. But he's like everybody needs to work without a coach for two years.

Andy Baker: 1:16:35

And there's some value to that, because if you're just having somebody walk you through everything all the time, you kind of it's like think about it. Like when I'm driving somewhere, if I'm sitting shotgun and a buddy of mine or an uncle or somebody else is driving out and we're driving out to a hunting property, going out in the middle of nowhere, if I'm sitting shotgun I can never tell you how to get, how to get to where we're at. But if I'm driving myself, I'll remember where to go and where to turn and all that kind of stuff. And it's kind of the same principle of you know, when you're always the passenger which sometimes, as a client, you are because the coach is doing so much of the work and the thinking for you and he's telling you put your hands here, lean over this way, put your feet here, do this, do that. He's doing so much of the thinking for you and you're just doing it, which of course usually leads to better results in the short term.

Andy Baker: 1:17:28

But you're also not necessarily always learning why. Because I know me as a coach, I don't always explain why to all my clients. They're not necessarily interested all the time. So every time I give them a cue or a set of instructions, I don't always tell them. And this is why we're doing it right, because I got an hour with that person and it's like we got to just get the workout done and get out and they don't. Some of them care, some of them don't, and so it's kind of the same thing of like Dave's point of you know, it's not a bad idea for somebody to just train completely on their own for a number of years so that they can go through all that self-experimentation, even if maybe they don't get the best results. But they will learn some stuff better on their own by doing it on their own and then having it kind of fine-tuned with a coach.

Philip Pape: 1:18:11

Yeah, that's one way to put it, but I'm sure you've seen a situation where there's a lot of bad habits to break down, if it's been too long.

Andy Baker: 1:18:18

Yeah, and it depends. Again, it's one of those things where it depends. It depends on the person, and some people really need the coaching and they need the hand-holding and they won't figure it. They will never figure it out on their own, they just don't have the aptitude to do it. Just like I probably wouldn't figure out nuclear physics on my own right, I could probably you know what I'm saying. I could read every textbook in the world cover to cover and still not know. You know, not know anything. So it's like it's if you don't have the aptitude for something, you're probably not likely to do that well on your own without some coaching.

Philip Pape: 1:18:56

Yeah, and the whole thing about cues, that's an interesting one, because that's kind of the final thought I have here is when you talked about the mistake being people don't understand the relationship or don't take time to learn it, and then you talked about different learning styles. So you've got the on paper biomechanics and then you have trying it out. If somebody is at least starting just on their own and they haven't had a coach yet, what's maybe I don't know if it's a cue is the right thing to ask you about, but something that they should be thinking about tactically to make sure that they're tying it to the midfoot model. You know, cause just to say, well, put it over your midfoot isn't going to work for everyone.

Andy Baker: 1:19:29

No, it doesn't work. I mean, even with an experienced lifter, I don't ever say get over the midfoot.

Philip Pape: 1:19:35

Right, that's not the actual cue Right.

Andy Baker: 1:19:37

So I will tell them something to put them over the midfoot.

Andy Baker: 1:19:41

So I may say uh, you know, I may say something like you know you're on your toes, or something which they're usually not on their toes.

Andy Baker: 1:19:48

But I'll see, you know, I'll see their heels start to slightly lift off the ground right, so they're starting to carry too much weight on the balls of their feet which is going to shift everything forward of midfoot. So I'll say, you know, I may say back on the heels or get off your toes or whatever. And again, the thing with cueing and we talk about this in the seminars is it's cueing becomes a very intimate language between the coach and the client, and the same cue may not work for one person the way that it does for others. And that's part of your role as a coach of people is understanding. What word or phrase am I going to say to this person that effectively reminds them? And it doesn't matter what, it is right. So it's just like when you're trying to teach people to set their back on a deadlift. With some people you say set your back harder. The next person you say lift your chest more. You're trying to get two people to do the same, but for the one person, telling them to set their back doesn't cue anything. So you tell them to lift their chest and it does. But then for the next guy, if you tell them to lift their chest, they so you tell them to lift their chest and it does. But then for the next guy, if you tell them to lift their chest, they don't set their back, they drop their hips. So you don't use that cue with that guy, but you do use it for the other guy. So you're trying to get the same result, which is, I'm trying to get both of those guys to flatten their back out, but I'm using two different phrases between each lifter because I know, for whatever reason, one clicks with one guy and not the other guy. So the same thing would work on a squat when you're trying to get somebody back over, say midfoot or whatever it might say.

Andy Baker: 1:21:16

I may tell a guy you can get back on your heels. Well, I don't really want him on his heels, I want him off of his toes, right, and some people bond better to negative versus positive. So get off your toes versus get on your heels. One's a positive, positive, one's a negative. One is stop doing this, the other is start doing this right. So some people interpret positive versus negative a little bit differently. You know it may be.

Andy Baker: 1:21:43

It may be if he's leaning over too much, if his back angle is starting to drift too far down, I may tell him chest up, you know that's getting him over midfoot. You know, because I don't want to, I don't want the bar him leaning over too much more to where the bar starts to drift forward to midfoot. So I'm telling him chest up more to get the barbell back centered over midfoot. So the chest up cue is a midfoot cue, it's just. I'm not telling him get over midfoot because it's not necessarily specific enough. It's too, it's too zoomed out. You need something more specific in that instance to get him midfoot.

Andy Baker: 1:22:17

So, um, and not every cue is about getting them onto the midfoot. There's other things. You can fuck up in a squat, you know, knees out. Knees out can get people back over midfoot.

Andy Baker: 1:22:27

Because if a guy's knees are drifting forward too much as they squat down or they're having a lot of knee slide at the bottom, that will pull that whole lifter barbell system forward a little bit and can get them off the midfoot.

Andy Baker: 1:22:39

So I may cue them knees out more.

Andy Baker: 1:22:41

You know I want them to shove their knees out more as they're descending and, and that cue is and knees out fixes a number of different things sometimes, but one of the things it may do is help them get back over midfoot better. So that cue it's just I'm chewing these out in order to help get them back over midfoot, among maybe a couple of other things too. But that's so. You just have to find the language between you and your lifter as a coach that's going to resonate with them in real time, and that's really all that queing is is what is real time instruction that I can give them while they're performing the movement that gets them to do what I want them to do under the bar. And if I said purple monkey dishwasher and that got them to shove their knees out and lift their chest up, then that's a good cue, right? So it doesn't matter what the cue is. As long as the lifter understands what that is and does what I want them to do in order to correct the form, then it doesn't matter.

Philip Pape: 1:23:40

Yeah, and I think it's powerful because when I learned starting strength I did it from the book. I did it on my own for several months. Then I went to see a starting strength coach here, cody Anino, here in Connecticut. Starting strength coach here, cody Anino, here in Connecticut. And within one hour you know he fixed, you know, 90% of what I was doing wrong. Right, just because of having that ability for an expert to say here's what I'm seeing and here's, here's the cue you need. You think you can cue yourself and watch yourself on video and it's just there's a block for a lot of us in getting that right until you have that expert or you join the barbell club and you post a form video and have andy uh say say exactly what he's seeing. He'll get you fixed up and it's never too late.

Andy Baker: 1:24:15

Sometimes you get the coaching. I was at a. I remember back in 2000 I don't know when it was, I was just fresh out of the military, but it was sort of in 2007 or something like that and I, my deadlift was around like 500 and I'd kind of been stuck around like in that 500 range for a long time. And I did like a 10 minute coaching session with Rip and Josh Wells in the back of a gym. They were doing a. They were with CrossFit.

Andy Baker: 1:24:42

Rip was with CrossFit still at the time and he was doing a seminar there and he had invited me out just to attend and sit in on the, on the, the lecture and such.

Andy Baker: 1:24:52

And then during like the lunchtime workout, like where the coaches lift and stuff, I I got in a workout and, um, I was doing my deadlifts and him and one of the staff coaches got me by Josh Wells, who's an excellent coach here at Houston actually, to walked over and they were watching me deadlift and I remember I don't even remember what the cue was, but Rip was, like you know, in his here do this, do this, do this, okay, pull, pull, another rep.

Andy Baker: 1:25:15

And I did it and 500 went up easy, whereas before it was like kind of a max effort. And then I threw on like 525, 530 and it popped right up. That's one little simple cue by a good coach like a Rip or a Josh Wells on a guy that's not elite but already at 500 deadlift that PR'd my lift by 25 pounds right there on the spot. So it's little things like that that even an experienced lifter who more or less knows what they're doing is not seeing in themselves or feeling themselves that a trained eye can see and fix. Right there in the moment, and in some cases instantly, you know, set a 25 pound PR.

Philip Pape: 1:25:59

If you're watching or listening, listen to what Andy has to say here, because you will be a better lifter if you take his advice. So I know we talked a lot about squatting. Is there anything else we should have covered that you're like yeah, I got to get this off my chest about squats?

Andy Baker: 1:26:16

No, not really. You know, I would just tell people to in general about their training. Kind of the way this whole conversation and this whole podcast episode started is just relax, you know, like have fun with it. Like if you can't do, yeah, if you can't do exactly what you want to do, like just relax, make small changes and then go for it as hard as you can from there and chill out about it and don't turn like there's enough stress in life where we don't need to turn our training into another form of stress. So just chill out.

Philip Pape: 1:26:43

True, it's true. And if you're like type a uptight guy like I am, it's all the more that you need to relax and chill out, cause it will definitely help's most of the guys I'm talking to I mean, that's who a lot of my clients are, and I'm not that way, they're the ones who listen to podcasts too.

Andy Baker: 1:26:56

And I'm not that way. Yeah, a type A guy is the one that's going to tune into a podcast on squat mechanics, like you know what I mean, and that's it's like not my personality, but it's written in a book or whatever drives them nuts and they wind up sucking a lot of the enjoyment out of the process but also, I think, sucking some of the results out of the process too. One of the things look around at some of the guys that are really really strong out there. Social media is not always the best place to gather information, but a lot of them are having. If you kind of watch it, just it appears from the outside they're having a lot of fun with their training. You know, and I don't think it's just because they're awesome lifters. I think the fact that they're having fun with the training sessions are just nothing but one big giant source of anxiety and stress for you. How good are you really going to be?

Philip Pape: 1:27:55

100%, 100%. Where's the live by man? Yeah, all right, where do you? I think I'm going to send people to the barbell club if you're good with that, but is there anyone else who want people to hit you up?

Andy Baker: 1:28:04

Yeah Well, to find the barbell club or one-on-one coaching or training templates or whatever else. It's all there at andybakercom. You can find everything from there.

Philip Pape: 1:28:23

All right, and those who follow me also, if you have questions about it, I'm in the club and I know a bunch of guys in there, so if you want to know what it's about, reach out Andy. Thanks again, man. It's always a pleasure. We get deep into some of this stuff and people need to know to just chillax, have fun with their training squat, however, it makes sense. There's no right, there's no wrong. Just train and get better over time, that's right. Thanks for coming on, man. All right, man, thanks, appreciate it.

The ONLY Strength Standard You Need to Progress Forever (Control Systems) | Ep 282

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Stop chasing arbitrary strength standards and learn why progressive overload is the only metric that matters for continuous progress.

Discover how engineering Control Systems reveal the three key components that regulate your training adaptation, and why understanding them transforms your approach to building strength. 

Whether you're plateaued or just starting out, this framework will help you create sustainable progress without burnout.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body operates like a control system with built-in feedback loops

• Three components (PID control) determine training adaptation

• Progressive overload requires strategic adjustments based on data

• Small, consistent changes beat random progress chasing

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why arbitrary strength standards hold you back
2:53 - Control systems and progressive overload
8:01 - Understanding PID control for training
10:22 - Proportional control: Immediate response
13:15 - Integral control: Accumulated training effects
14:35 - Derivative control: Rate of adaptation
16:48 - Practical metrics to track
20:25 - Creating a sustainable feedback loop 

The Strength Standard That Actually Matters for Lifters

Too many lifters chase arbitrary strength standards, thinking they need to squat twice their body weight or bench two plates per side to be “strong.” But true progress isn’t about hitting some magic number—it’s about optimizing your body's adaptation process.

In this episode, we take an engineering-based approach to strength training by looking at progressive overload as a control system. When you understand how feedback loops drive long-term strength, you’ll stop spinning your wheels, avoid unnecessary plateaus, and set yourself up for consistent gains.

Why Strength Standards Are Misleading

Strength standards exist as general benchmarks, but they don’t tell you anything about your personal progress.

• Some lifters progress quickly, while others take years to hit certain numbers

• Body weight, limb length, and experience all impact how much you can lift

• Chasing external numbers without respecting your own feedback loop leads to frustration, injuries, or plateaus

Instead of trying to match someone else’s numbers, focus on what your body is telling you and adjust training accordingly.

Strength Training Is a Control System

In engineering, a control system is a feedback loop that continuously adjusts to reach a goal—like how your car’s cruise control maintains speed or how a thermostat keeps your house at the right temperature.

Your body operates the same way with strength training:

1. You apply a stimulus (lifting weights)

2. Your body adapts by building stronger muscles and neural pathways

3. You track progress and adjust the load accordingly

If you overload too fast (slamming the gas pedal instead of smoothly increasing speed), your system breaks down—bad form, stalled lifts, or even injuries.

The Three Components of Training Adaptation

To make progressive overload work efficiently, we can break it down into three key principles inspired by PID control systems (proportional, integral, and derivative control).

1. Proportional control: Small, gradual increases

Your body responds proportionally to the challenge you give it. If you add weight too fast, you’ll exceed your ability to adapt and stall out.

Instead, make small, strategic jumps based on what your body can handle:

• Beginner lifters: Increase weight each session, ideally by 2.5–5 lbs

• Intermediate lifters: Progress may be slower, so use microplates (e.g., 1.25 lb increments)

• Advanced lifters: Focus on weekly or monthly increases, plus other overload methods like more reps or volume

2. Integral control: Tracking fatigue and accumulated volume

Your body doesn’t just respond to today’s workout—it remembers the total workload from the past weeks and months.

Track these three key variables:

• Volume per exercise (sets × reps × weight)

• Total workload per muscle group

• Progression over time (across a 4–6 week cycle)

If fatigue is building faster than adaptation, you might be doing too much volume too soon and need to scale back.

3. Derivative control: Managing fatigue and recovery

Your rate of progress matters just as much as progress itself. If you push too hard too fast, fatigue builds up and stalls your progress.

Signs you need a deload or adjustment:

• Performance plateauing or declining

• Feeling drained even after rest days

• Warm-up sets feeling harder than usual

• Decreased motivation to train

The key is to preemptively manage recovery, not just react when things break down. Planned resets or deloads every 4–6 weeks keep your system running efficiently.

How to Apply This for Long-Term Gains

Forget arbitrary strength standards. Instead, create a feedback-driven system that maximizes your progress.

1. Track your performance: Log your lifts, reps, and volume so you have real data to act on

2. Make small, measured increases: Avoid ego lifting and jump weight only when your body is ready

3. Monitor biofeedback: Sleep, energy, and soreness tell you when to push or pull back

4. Use strategic recovery periods: Deloads and training waves prevent burnout and injury

5. Think long-term: Your training is a process, not a race—play the long game and build sustainable strength

Final Thoughts

Strength isn’t about hitting some number on a chart. It’s about understanding how your body adapts and managing that process like an engineer. If you get your progressive overload system dialed in, you’ll be able to make gains for years—without burning out or stalling.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Are you chasing arbitrary strength standards, constantly comparing yourself to what others can lift? Maybe you're frustrated that your squat still isn't at body weight or your bench press hasn't hit two plates yet. Here's what most lifters miss that true strength development works just like a control system. It's not about hitting random numbers. It's about creating the right feedback loop for continuous progress. Today, we're talking about why progressive overload is the only strength standard you'll ever need and how understanding control systems will transform your training forever.

Philip Pape: 0:44

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're talking about the most important principle in strength training, the one from which all others derive progressive overload, or what some people like to call progressive loading, because technically you're not overloading, but that's a different topic and we're going to look at this progressive overload or what some people like to call progressive loading because technically you're not overloading, but that's a different topic and we're going to look at this through the lens of engineering control systems. I'm surprised. I have never talked about control systems before, but here we are. A control system is a feedback mechanism that helps something, improve or maintain stability, like, for example, for example, the speed on your cruise control in your car right. Or another one I like to talk about is your thermostat Keeping your house at the perfect temperature. It's always feeding back based on what the actual temperature is, and your body has a similar system for adapting to training. And if you can understand that and tie it to this concept, it is kind of going to revolutionize how you think to getting stronger.

Philip Pape: 1:48

Now, before we get in to this episode, if you want to experience a program that applies this and all of our other principles for nutrition training mindset with scientific precision I'm just kidding, not that scientific, there's a little bit of flex in there I want you to consider joining Wits and Weights Physique University. We now have, as of the end of February, going into March, we're going to have our first monthly challenge. Every single month we're going to have a challenge in the group in addition to the custom nutrition plans, workouts, tracking tools, courses, the supportive community check-ins all of that to help you reach your strength and physique goals faster than ever. So if you want to try it free for 14 days and get your first challenge at absolutely no cost, use the special link in my show notes. That is the only way to get it. You have to click the link in the show notes to join for free for the first 14 days, wits and Weights Physique University and get to try the first challenge at no cost, and I will be unveiling what that challenge is soon. But you can join at no cost. Reach out to me if you have questions.

Philip Pape: 2:53

And now I want to get into today's topic, which is progressive overload, and we're going to cover it from a different perspective. First we're going to talk about control systems, because control systems are a really good analogy to our bodies in the context of strength training. Then we'll talk about the three components that regulate your training adaptation, and then how to apply this framework to your own training so you can get some consistent progress. Now I've talked about progressive overload before. I usually approach it in the more traditional sense, talking about increasing your weight and your reps and all of that. But today is going to be a different angle that I think you're going to appreciate.

Philip Pape: 3:31

So let's talk about control systems. These are actually everywhere in engineering. They're everywhere in your life. You don't even realize they're there. They monitor outputs, they compare them to a desired target and then they make adjustments and anything run by a computer today pretty much has a control system and that's how things can run optimally and automatically. So I mentioned the cruise control in the intro your car's cruise control very common system that we're all familiar with. It is measuring your speed on the road, it compares it to your target speed and then it adjusts the throttle. Now, of course, if you're driving a Tesla or something that has automatic driving, that is a much more advanced control system that's using sensors and cameras and everything to keep you on the road. But just back to the cruise control, you know if you go uphill it's just going to add more gas. If you go downhill, it eases off and it does it in a very smooth way. Well, generally it does. It's not jerky, it's not like over responsive. The system's always working to maintain that perfect speed.

Philip Pape: 4:29

Well, your body works the same way when it comes to building strength. When you lift weights, you create a stimulus. Your body then responds by adapting. It builds stronger muscles and more efficient neural pathways. Right, it's both neuromuscular as well as physical muscular. But here's where most lifters go wrong. They focus on arbitrary numbers instead of trying to optimize the feedback loop so that they can keep making progress.

Philip Pape: 4:55

Whether you want to call it ego lifting or just a lack of understanding very common problem, I see. If I give you a concrete example. All right, let's say you're squatting 225 pounds and then you try to jump straight to 275 pounds. What usually happens? Your system gets overloaded, your form breaks down, your reps get sloppy, you risk injury. And it doesn't even have to be that big of a jump. You may take a 10 pound jump and it's too big. It's one of the most common reasons people fail their reps common reasons people fail their reps. Then they say, hey, philip, this isn't working. Should I do a reset or take a deload? I'm like, no, you just jumped too much and you would have known not to do that if you had taken your history and your data into account. But we'll get back to that. So if you jump more than you can handle, that'd be like again in the car analogy you're slamming the accelerator instead of letting the cruise control make the smooth adjustments. And remember when you do that your car can't quite get there and then it may eventually get there, but it's basically doing it in a very jerky way that taxes the engine, your body, like a good control system needs time to process the feedback and then adapt. I mean Same idea Now progressive overload, which is the gradual increase in training demands. That's all that is right.

Philip Pape: 6:10

It's not that your body is on its own just deciding to get stronger. It is that you are pushing it to its limit and it's getting stronger. And it works just like any other well-tuned control system. You provide a stimulus, you measure the response and you make calculated adjustments. And too many lifters get caught up chasing numbers. I need to squat 315, or my buddy squats 315,. I'm only squatting 275, so I'm weak. But yeah, maybe for you you're not. I should be benching twice my body weight. Whatever. You know these strength standards and I've been asked many times before like what is considered strong? Well, it's all relative to you. Some people are super strong right out of the gate. Some people are not. Some people actually get stronger, faster than other people, and so if we use arbitrary standards, they are going to ignore how your unique system responds.

Philip Pape: 7:00

Think again about homeostasis, your body's natural tendency to maintain balance. When you train, you are disrupting that balance and then your body is going to adapt to handle future disruptions better. That's one way to put it. Another way to put it is you are shifting your homeostasis, your capacity, your peak. You're shifting it outward, you're shifting it upward and it's this beautiful feedback loop that allows you to become a different person physically, but only if you respect how the system works and lean into it properly. So that gets me to something very it's going to sound a little bit technical.

Philip Pape: 7:36

It's something we use in control systems and it's called a PID controller. I'm going to use this as an analogy for the three components of training control, but you'll I'll go back and forth so you know what I'm talking about. So don't get lost in the terminology. It's a pid controller, proportional integral derivative. Again, you don't have to know exactly what those means mean and I'm going to give you a very um kind of simplified definition of those. So it might sound complex, but your body's response to training follows the same pattern.

Philip Pape: 8:01

Let's let's just break it down First. The P. So remember PID proportional integral derivative. The P is proportional control. This is your body's immediate response to a training stimulus, like right in the moment when you lift a weight. That's challenging but manageable, meaning you can actually do it, and that includes for all the reps. So that means if you're doing a set of five, that means you lift a weight that you can get for a set of five and it's not like a max, all-out grindy set.

Philip Pape: 8:29

Your body then responds proportionally proportional. It recruits the right amount of muscle fibers, it helps you maintain proper form, right Balance, stability, all that and it helps you complete the movement successfully. A lot of this is neuromuscular. A lot of this is based on movement patterns. This is why having enough reps and enough practice and frequency is important. But the point is your body will proportionally respond.

Philip Pape: 8:55

If you, however, try to go too heavy, too fast, the system gets unstable. You're going to fail your reps or your form is going to break down. That could be the potential for injury. Your nervous system also gets overwhelmed, especially on really big lifts like deadlifts. But if you increase it just the right amount, right, just that five pounds on your bench press, or maybe it's two pounds with microplates depends on where you are your body's going to adapt perfectly. There's a nice sweet spot. It's not super wide, but it's also not so precise. You have to be down to a decimal point or anything like that. And again, I've seen this countless times with clients those who try to force huge jumps in weight inevitably are going to plateau. I don't even call it a plateau, I just it's like um, they, they feel like the program's wrong for them or it's not the right weight or not the right lift or whatever, and they immediately go to the doom and gloom. All these potential issues and, granted, if you're not sleeping enough, you're not eating enough, those could definitely be the issues. But sometimes it's just you're not increasing by the right amount or you're not taking enough rest period and you're just over. It's not only progressive overload, it's progressive way overload, okay. But if you respect this proportional ability for your body to meet the demand only up to its limits, right, and getting into that sweet spot with those small calculated increases, now you could build strength consistently for years on end. I mean years and years. So that's proportional control. Then we have integral control Remember PID proportional, integral, derivative. So integral control.

Philip Pape: 10:22

This is really looking at history. It's looking at the accumulated training over time, not like your injury history or your training or diet history over the years. This is more of the recent, like the last few days or last few weeks of training, and this is also why tracking your volume and your progression and what you're lifting and how much you're lifting really matters a lot. Okay, your body, just you know it doesn't just respond to what you're doing today. It kind of remembers the workload that you've handled over the past few days, weeks, even months. And so if you brought me someone and said, hey, write a program for them, I wouldn't know what is optimal for them unless I talk to them about what they've done recently, right? Or I would have to get them into a kind of prep, easy kind of prep phase for a few weeks just to work all the fatigue out of their system. Actually, there's a good analogy when we talk about dieting and prepping for fat loss, kind of getting the food-related calorie deficit stress out of your system similar idea. So your body kind of remembers this kind of like. You know it's like your bank account. I mean, you know, if you put $1,000 in the bank today, that's great, but if you've spent so much money the last six months that you're in a million dollars of debt, that thousand dollars isn't going to do much. So I don't know how great of analogy that was, but it came to mind. And back to training.

Philip Pape: 11:46

This is where the program, a lot of programs themselves, like in isolation, actually fall short because it's all about this individual workout, right? Hey, come buy my latest workout, like I have a workout for you. Or follow this workout on YouTube and it just says just jump right in, it's not personalized, it doesn't count for history. If, if you're going to buy a program from somebody, um, take, take my coach, andy Baker, for example. He sells templates on his, on his website, but when you download one of those templates, it's this like 20 page PDF explaining the principles behind it, and there's actually a lot of work you have to do to make it work for you. And this is not a criticism on Andy, he wouldn't mind me saying this. It's because he doesn't know where you started from and you need to figure that out as you get into the program. He's not just going to say, hey, do these exercises these days and you're done. Anybody can do that with chat GPT today. That's going to fall short and you're done. Anybody can do that with chat GPT today. That's going to fall short.

Philip Pape: 12:40

Um, the bigger picture is are you gradually increasing your volume or have you gone with too much volume recently? Are you balancing intensity and volume over different exercises, days and weeks, right, Because your body knows this, even if your mind doesn't realize it, and that's why you need um, well, I guess I'm going to get, I'm going to get to the third piece now when I talk about deloads. But that's why you have to be aware of your history when you program. So the last part is derivative control. So remember PID proportional, integral derivative Derivative control is the rate of change, so that's how quickly you're progressing or accumulating fatigue, right.

Philip Pape: 13:15

And this is why we need either deloads or we need a program that naturally incorporates resets or variety or undulation or waves or whatever it is. It doesn't have to be complicated Some are more complicated than others Some sort of cycling that is in there where you don't even need a deload necessarily, right, some programs you just design it that way and then six weeks and then you have a deload. Others it's kind of built in. You know, like I'm following a program that's based on a base strength and then peak strength, and every third week you reset slightly, but the reset is heavier than three weeks before that. So it's kind of a natural deload.

Philip Pape: 13:55

Your body has limits on how fast it can adapt, so if you're pushing too hard, too fast and the system starts to get too fatigued, you start breaking down. That's where you're going to hit a wall and you're going to keep hitting a wall until you somehow release all that tension and go at the right rate of change. So both the history of it how much have you accumulated and then also now what we're talking about is the rate of change, how fast and how hard you're going as you work through this are really important. It's like balancing all of this out is critical. So now, how do we use this knowledge to build your real-world strength, to become as strong as possible, to keep doing it without injury, to keep going and being consistent?

Philip Pape: 14:35

The first thing is to forget arbitrary strength standards. Don't worry about it, stop asking about it, stop worrying about absolute numbers and instead create a system that respects how your body actually adapts to training and you may respond differently than someone else to a certain amount of volume. You may respond differently when you're in fat loss versus when you're not, or when you're eating certain foods versus not, when you're training fasted or not, how much cardio or sports or other things you're doing outside of the lifting sessions. So, going back to our three components, if we want to apply these to real life. Let's start with proportional control. This means you're going to make small, consistent increases in either load that's, the weight on the bar and or reps. So if you're bench pressing 185 for three sets of five, you may not want to jump to 215 next week or next session. Whatever program you're following. You may want to go from 185 to 190. And if you've been doing that for a while and it's getting really, really hard, you might want to go from 190 to 192 and a half.

Philip Pape: 15:40

This is where microplates are helpful and a lot of people somehow don't even realize they exist. I shouldn't say it that way. That sounds patronizing. I should not have said that, but what I mean is a lot of people. You could sense some of my frustration here and how many times this comes up. For those of my clients listening who have benefited from me sharing microplates, who didn't know this before, I apologize if that comes across as insulting, but I guess I'm just saying I'm surprised that it's not part of the common lexicon, like so many other things.

Philip Pape: 16:10

So look for microplates which include both small fractional plates for your barbell but also plates that can go on dumbbells, and then that way you can progress in the right levels and then, as you get closer and closer to your limit, until you reduce the frequency. In other words, if you're squatting three days a week, you can only go up so so much doing that before you have to now increase once a week, right. Even if you're squatting three times a week, you may only go up once a week, for example, right. So it's got to depend on what level of training you're at. So that's proportional controls, those small, consistent increases.

Philip Pape: 16:48

If you're a beginner, I definitely love focusing on increasing load, and then, as you become more advanced, you can learn how to increase on reps as well, or back and forth load reps, depending on what you're working on. For integral control remember, this is the one based on accumulated fatigue you're going to want to track three metrics. The first one is your volume per exercise. This is sets times reps. It could be times weight as well, so that's called tonnage, but even sets times reps, just the volume per exercise, okay. And then number two is the volume per muscle group, because that way you can see how many sets you're doing per muscle group, which will also tell you maybe you're not doing enough, depending on what your goals are and then your overall training load across your what some people call mesocycle or a block like a four to six week block. What's your overall load? And there's some cool apps that do this as well.

Philip Pape: 17:42

If you're into that, like I use Boostcamp. You could find a link to that below in the show notes. But with Boostcamp you could actually see a graph of your volume over time. So the program I'm following you'll see it go up for three weeks and then drop, and then go up for three weeks and drop. So that can be really helpful for those who are trying to make sure that you're in the sweet spot. Now, if you're following a, if you have a personal trainer or you're following a really good coach or using one of the programs like that are already in Boost Camp, for example they're probably already set up to give you a reasonable volume.

Philip Pape: 18:13

But you need to know hey, I'm feeling really fatigued, do I have too much volume? Well, you don't know that unless you track it, and a lot of people don't track this stuff. I'll tell you, even in my lifting community, with all the buddies that lift, that I know a lot of them don't really think about volume. A lot of them are following lower volume programs anyway. You may not have enough volume, though, for what you're trying to achieve, or you may have too much, and it depends on what phase you're into. You may have to drop the volume, for example. So tracking, that's the only way you're going to know, right, that you're progressively overloading without overwhelming your system.

Philip Pape: 18:47

And then the last piece, the derivative control. This is more. How do you know, do you need recovery or deload, unless you've already built it in, which I talked about earlier, which is a really smart strategy. Just build it in and be proactive. But I want you to be tracking your biofeedback. How's your sleep quality? How is your recovery? I mean, are your warmup sets feeling smooth? Are you feeling kind of wiped out right from the beginning? Is your overall performance trending up or down? How is your motivation? How is your energy right? All of that is important and, again, it may indicate a problem with your diet, with your carbs, with your meal timing, something else like with your sleep, with your stress. But as long as you have the information, you can then start digging into the why behind them. And these indicators are great because they tell you whether you're adapting optimally or you need to adjust something. Of course you can use aura rings, you can use your Apple Watch, and those all have different measures of stress and resilience. It's all good stuff, just make sure you're correlating it with what you're doing.

Philip Pape: 19:40

So the key to all of this? To progressive overload and notice. I'm just talking principles here. This one principle is going to translate to everything else. It is even more important than, for example, mechanical tension. Right, we talk about mechanical tension being the driver of hypertrophy and muscle mass, but I've never seen a really good lifter not also progress by virtue of using mechanical tension. Thus it's sort of a secondary principle, if you will. As long as you're progressing, that tells you you're doing the right things. Now you may have to uncover what things you need to do right to get to proper progressive overload. That's a whole different deep dive. So the sustainable feedback loop is pretty cool once you've implemented it. It makes you a lifter, it makes you confident, it helps you get progress.

Philip Pape: 20:25

So I have a client who made progress on a beginning style three by five style program, kind of like starting strength with some modifications right, and she made progress for a while and then she started to move into an intermediate program and started to stall a little bit and get frustrated and asked her are you progressing on all of your accessory movements? She's like, yeah, all of that's coming straight up. I said, okay, then there's something going on with the main lifts in one of these three areas we're talking about here that we're off on. We're either not increasing the right levels right, we we are, we have too much fatigue. I don't think that's the issue in this case, but you know, could always be that I think it's more the proportional control. We're not necessarily going up in the right levels. Something's off in the way we're progressing. If she's able to progress all this other stuff, you know it could be a form issue or something as well. All right, so you know.

Philip Pape: 21:11

What do you do here for this system? Just to recap, you're going to monitor performance through consistent tracking, so you have the data to act on. You're going to make small strategic adjustments based on your data. You're going to have adequate recovery between training sessions, between sets and across your whole block of training and you're going to repeat this while gradually increasing demands over time as your capacity increases and then, when all of this works well, you're going to notice consistent strength gains without plateaus. They're going to be very infrequent and usually for other reasons, or usually because you've just gone, you've overreached just a little bit. You're going to have better recovery between sessions. You're probably going to have fewer aches and pains, lower likelihood of injury and more predictable progress, like you can forecast.

Philip Pape: 21:55

Okay, six months. I want to. I want my deadlift to be here and I know I have a pretty good confidence I can get there now that I've gotten a predictable process in place. And that's how you build lasting strength without burnout or injury. Right, it's not as exciting as chasing big numbers every session, but it's far more effective and efficient in the long run. That's what we're all about, right?

Philip Pape: 22:16

What's what's fascinating about all this is, once you understand this control your body is a control system. It has these feedback loops you realize that progressive overload really isn't about just adding weight to the bar. Right, it's actually about optimizing your body's adaptation mechanisms, your adaptation mechanisms. The weight on the bar is just a method to get there right. And then that framework can apply to any fitness goal, from fat loss to muscle gain. They're all adaptations. So then you're not just building strength, you're becoming guess what an engineer of your own physique.

Philip Pape: 22:52

That is what we do on this show. That is the point. When you stop chasing arbitrary numbers of any of this stuff and you start treating training, nutrition, mental growth, all of it, relationships like the sophisticated control system, it is, I mean, your body. When it comes to training, everything changes. Your progress becomes more consistent, more predictable and, ultimately, more sustainable. All right, and again, if you want to apply these principles to your training, join us in Wits and Weights Physique University.

Philip Pape: 23:23

I'm going to give you a secret link in the show notes, and I didn't mention it earlier, but in addition to the 14-day free trial, in addition to a free challenge, you are going to get a discounted rate from what is publicly available. It is a rate that I am testing with new clients. Keep it a secret. Well, I know the millions of people listening to the show won't but hearty heart, okay. Anyway, back in the physique university.

Philip Pape: 23:49

You know we use this approach, this kind of very logical, objective, efficient, confident building approach, to help you build strength and muscle and also tackle your nutrition Nutrition is a huge part of it To make this sustainable, to stay injury-free, to get the confidence in the wins constantly. So click the link in my show notes for the 14-day free trial, the free challenge, the secret discounted price. And remember, smart training beats random progress. Chasing every time, every single time, all right until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your body is the most sophisticated control system you'll ever work with, so learn how to use it. This is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Is Allulose the New GLP-1 Alternative to Weight Loss Drugs? | Ep 281

Submit your nutrition and training questions at witsandweights.com/question to get featured on the show

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Discover how a natural sugar called allulose is getting attention for potentially offering similar metabolic benefits as modern weight loss drugs by stimulating GLP-1. 

Learn the science behind how this unique compound affects blood sugar, appetite, and fat loss through natural pathways.

Main Takeaways:

• Allulose stimulates GLP-1 more modestly than medications, working with natural body rhythms

• Research shows up to 50% reduction in post-meal blood sugar spikes

• Practical dosing starts at 5-10g per serving, best taken with meals

• May help with transitioning off GLP-1 medications while maintaining results

• Shows promise for preserving muscle glycogen during training

Timestamps:

4:00 - What is allulose and how it differs from regular sugar
5:17 - Key research findings and real-world uses
8:24 - Practical dosing guidelines and timing considerations
10:05 - Benefits and potential side effects

Is Allulose a Natural Alternative to GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs?

GLP-1 medications like Ozempic and Mounjaro have dominated the weight loss conversation, but what if a naturally occurring sugar could offer similar metabolic benefits? Enter allulose, a rare sugar gaining traction for its potential effects on blood sugar control, appetite regulation, and fat metabolism—all without the side effects or cost of pharmaceutical interventions.

This isn’t just another sugar substitute. Allulose has been shown to stimulate GLP-1, the same hormone targeted by modern weight loss drugs, while behaving more like fiber than sugar in the body. But is it really a viable tool for fat loss and metabolic health? Let's break down the science, practical applications, and how lifters and dieters alike might benefit from this unique compound.

What Is Allulose and How Does It Work?

Allulose is classified as a rare sugar because it naturally occurs in small amounts in foods like figs, raisins, and maple syrup. Structurally, it resembles fructose, but it’s metabolized differently:

• 90% is excreted in urine, meaning it provides almost no usable energy.

• It doesn’t spike blood sugar or insulin levels, unlike traditional sugars.

• It triggers metabolic pathways, including GLP-1, that regulate blood sugar and appetite.

The most compelling aspect of allulose is its ability to stimulate GLP-1, a hormone that slows gastric emptying, reduces hunger, and improves insulin sensitivity. While allulose doesn’t act as powerfully as GLP-1 drugs, its effects align with how the body naturally regulates energy balance, making it an interesting potential tool for those managing blood sugar or working on fat loss.

What Does the Science Say?

Research on allulose is still emerging, but here’s what we know so far:

1. Allulose Can Reduce Blood Sugar Spikes

A 2018 Nature Communications study found that when participants consumed allulose with a meal, their post-meal blood sugar was up to 50% lower. Unlike artificial sweeteners, which often just replace sugar, allulose actively improves carbohydrate metabolism, making it potentially useful for those with insulin resistance or prediabetes.

2. Appetite and Fat Loss Benefits

Animal studies have shown that allulose supplementation:

• Reduces appetite by increasing GLP-1 secretion

• Enhances insulin sensitivity

• Improves fat oxidation, leading to lower fat accumulation

While human data is limited, some physicians, like Dr. Charles Cavo, have reported using allulose to help patients transition off GLP-1 medications without experiencing rebound weight gain.

3. Potential Benefits for Lifters and Athletes

For those who train, allulose might offer glycogen-sparing effects, helping preserve energy stores during workouts. While this research is early-stage, it raises interesting possibilities for endurance athletes and those in cutting phases.

How to Use Allulose for Fat Loss and Metabolic Health

1. Start with the Right Dose

Most studies suggest 5-10 grams per serving, increasing up to 15-20 grams if well tolerated. Unlike artificial sweeteners, allulose doesn’t cause blood sugar spikes, but consuming too much at once may cause digestive discomfort (similar to sugar alcohols).

2. Use It Strategically with Meals

Since allulose improves carbohydrate metabolism, the best time to use it is with meals containing carbs. For those managing blood sugar, this could be a simple way to blunt post-meal glucose spikes without eliminating carbs altogether.

3. Incorporate It into Cooking and Baking

Unlike many sugar substitutes that taste artificial or don’t behave like sugar in recipes, allulose caramelizes, browns, and blends seamlessly into foods. You’ll already find it in products like Quest bars, Magic Spoon cereal, and various protein snacks.

Should You Add Allulose to Your Diet?

Allulose isn’t a magic bullet, but it’s a compelling tool for fat loss, blood sugar control, and metabolic health. Unlike GLP-1 drugs, it works within the body’s natural hormonal pathways, making it a low-risk, accessible option for those looking to optimize their diet.

That said, it’s not necessary for results. If you’re already eating balanced meals with protein and fiber, lifting weights, and managing calories effectively, you don’t need allulose to lose fat. But if you want to experiment with a metabolically friendly sweetener that does more than just replace sugar, it’s worth trying.

Final Thoughts

Allulose is more than just another sugar alternative—it’s a functional ingredient that may improve metabolic flexibility, appetite control, and carbohydrate processing. Whether you’re looking to transition off GLP-1 medications, optimize fat loss, or simply find a better way to satisfy your sweet tooth, allulose offers an intriguing evidence-based approach.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You've probably heard about the GLP-1 medications, like Ozempic, transforming the weight loss industry, but what if I told you there is a natural sugar that stimulates the same pathway, a sugar that can help control blood sugar, reduce appetite and might enhance fat loss? Today we're uncovering the science behind allulose, a rare sugar that's getting attention for potentially offering some of the metabolic benefits of the modern weight loss drugs without the side effects or the cost. You'll discover how this molecule works, what the research shows about its effects on GLP-1 and metabolism, and whether it could be a useful tool in your fat loss toolbox. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to look at allulose. It is a unique sweetener that is generating some news, some buzz, for potentially offering some similar metabolic benefits as modern weight loss medications, but through natural pathways. And the timing couldn't be more relevant, because the GLP-1 drugs like Ozembic and Monjaro have exploded on the scene. They're being talked about all the time, as am I, and they're changing how we think about weight management, fat loss, lifestyle combined with these drugs, understanding alternatives, and it's really cool to have something that might work through similar pathways. That's more of a natural approach, not as a replacement for medication. Again, that is outside my scope. You work with your medical professional. If you have a prescribed need for med, so be it. We're not going to talk about that today, but what makes this topic fascinating is how a natural sugar might actually help control blood sugar and appetite rather than spike it, although, again, we're not going to fear monger over spikes in blood sugar. It's totally natural when you eat any form of carbohydrates that have glucose. It's more of using this for specific mechanisms that are similar to the GLP-1 agonist, and the science behind this shows some insights into our metabolism that go beyond just finding another sugar substitute. So I definitely want you to stick around to hear the more in-depth findings when we get into them.

Philip Pape: 2:21

I want to give a special shout out to Michael Kay, one of our longtime listeners. He's a fellow coach. He and I talk all the time over uh, over DMS, and he brought this research to my attention, so I definitely want to give you a shout out, michael. Uh, you have definitely a commitment to evidence-based nutrition. I know you are always reviewing the studies. You have Google alerts and stuff set up and you shared this with me, so now I can share it with the audience and help make this show what it is, but also help people learn and apply this to their lives.

Philip Pape: 2:50

All right, before we get into the science of allulose, I have a quick favor to ask If you've been enjoying these evidence-based deep dives, these Monday deep dives into nutrition, physique optimization, all of it. Take a moment and submit a question so that I can answer it and turn it into a podcast episode. I'm going to give you a specific reply anyway, a personal reply, and then I very likely will turn it into an episode and give you a shout out. Go to witsandweightscom slash question or click the link in the show notes witsandweightscom slash question. And that will continue to shape the topics that we cover and ensure we cover what matters to you most.

Philip Pape: 3:28

Now let's build our mental muscle by getting into today's topic. Let's start by understanding exactly what allulose is, and I'll never forget when I first learned about this compound, because I saw it as an ingredient on, I think, some sort of Quest bar. I'll say a sweeter version of the Quest bar. Oh man, what was it called? You guys probably even know what it is. I should have looked that up. And you know I was skeptical because I didn't know what it was, and we've all heard claims about miracle sweeteners and all these brand new artificial sweeteners.

Philip Pape: 4:00

But allulose is fundamentally different. When I started to look into it, it is what we call a rare sugar, because it does exist naturally in foods like figs and maple syrup, but it's in tiny amounts. And while it's structurally almost identical to fructose, which is just regular sugar from fruit, our bodies handle it differently. Our bodies handle it differently. Instead of being converted to energy, like regular sugar, around 90% of allulose gets eliminated in your urine, so you only absorb 10% of it, meaning 10% of the calories, and during its journey through our system it triggers some metabolic effects and this is what I want to cover today that I wasn't aware of.

Philip Pape: 4:41

The most intriguing of those is the ability to stimulate GLP-1, which is the same hormone targeted by the weight loss medications like Gozembek and Manjaro. Now I want to be crystal clear here. I'm not suggesting allulose is equivalent to these medications. The GLP-1 response from allulose is equivalent to these medications. The GLP-1 response from allulose is more modest. It's shorter acting, but that's what makes it interesting. It works within our body's natural systems rather than overriding them, and so, combined with lifestyle which we should always have lifestyle in there it could be a great natural alternative to at least start with, if you are considering those drugs.

Philip Pape: 5:17

And that brings me to what the science actually shows. There is a 2018 study in Nature Communications this is the study that Michael sent me that when subjects consumed allulose with a meal, their post-meal blood sugar rise was reduced by up to 50% Kind of like the effects you would have on having a more balanced meal or having fiber in there. Even more interesting, it wasn't from blocking sugar absorption. The allulose was actively helping the body's process carbohydrates more efficiently. So that's pretty cool. But what about fat loss? Animal studies have shown that adding allulose to a high fat, high-sugar diet significantly reduced weight gain compared to control groups, and the mechanism appears to be three different things going on. Number one is reduced appetite, and that's from the GLP-1 stimulation. The second is improved insulin sensitivity and the third is enhanced fat oxidation. Now, we never want to compare animal studies to humans. We know there's a vast majority of them that do not translate and the human evidence is still emerging but it is promising.

Philip Pape: 6:28

Dr Charles Cavo. He's a physician who specializes in metabolic health, and he's reported success using allulose to help patients transition off GLP-1 medications while maintaining their results, which is really crucial, because the weight regain after stopping these medications is currently a major concern. My caveat here is I've worked with clients to help them come off of these drugs. We never had to use allulose and you can still do it, as long as you are eating nutritious foods, you're lifting weights, you're not cutting calories dramatically, and I'll tell you just as a side tangent one effective way to do this if you are on these drugs right now, like terzapatide or something like that, is when you get to a reasonable level of body mass that you're going for with the drugs. You can titrate down the drugs in conjunction with your medical professional and come out of the calorie deficit.

Philip Pape: 7:19

So it helps, of course, to be tracking, to understand your calories and macros, to be eating sufficient protein and fiber and to be lifting weights and being active. Those are the lifestyle changes you have to put in place in parallel. You just have to put those in place so that you're at least going in a reasonable deficit, you don't lose muscle mass, you maintain all of these things and you set yourself up so that it actually is not that big a deal in terms of the food noise and the satiety when you come off the drug. And then, when you do that, don't do it while in a dieting phase, you know, come out of it at maintenance or even into a muscle building phase. That's a whole separate topic. Um, so I just wanted to have that caveat because, yes, I could see that if you lose, use allulose, it's almost like a stepping stone and that is actually pretty cool. I do think that is pretty cool as we start to see allulose in more and more food products, or it's something that you can buy off the shelf and incorporate and, like I said, it's already in like a certain line of the quest protein bars and it's probably in lots of others. At this point, in fact, I think it might be in that magic spoon cereal. Take a look at your ingredient labels, folks, and see where you find it.

Philip Pape: 8:24

Anyway, back to the topic how can we use this information? First and foremost, always, always, always. Dosing matters, the dosage. When we talk about efficacy and we talk about toxicity and you hear about fear mongering about different things, dosing always matters. Dosing in context. Research suggests starting with 5 to 10 grams per serving, working up to 15 to 20 grams if well tolerated and the timing appears optimal, with meals Kind of makes sense. If you're talking about blood sugar and fullness signals and all that, it makes sense that you're doing it with meals, although I could see why people might think doing it between meals could have its own positive effect of potentially reducing your hunger signals, for example.

Philip Pape: 9:07

And then they said especially carbohydrate-containing meals where you want to minimize blood sugar spikes. I have to go on a little side diatribe here. Blood sugar spikes are not to be feared. I had somebody come to me saying I'd stopped eating potatoes because I wore a glucose monitor and my blood sugar spiked. I said oh, how far we've come in this industry where you think just a blood sugar spike itself is somehow a problem. It is not. It is not unless you already have your pre-diabetic, your diabetic insulin, as a concern For a healthy individual who's active. It's not Now. It could cause fluctuations in your energy levels. It can cause different usage of nutrients where maybe it's suboptimal in certain cases if you're just eating lots of carbs at individual meals, and that is why I definitely recommend balanced meals that always have some protein and fiber, and that usually mitigates the concern. And then walking after meals is the other thing. So again, just my little side diatribes here that I think are important in context of all of this.

Philip Pape: 10:05

So back to allulose. I think the beauty of allulose is it's a pretty versatile sweetener, right? Unlike a lot of alternative sweeteners which can have an aftertaste or bitterness or like doesn't behave the same way when you cook with it. Allulose behaves almost identically to sugar when you cook or when you bake. It even caramelizes. And again, intuitively, that makes sense because it's derived naturally from basically a fruit sugar type situation. So it makes sense that it would act naturally. But you never know, right. So for real world use it's pretty practical. But the caveat always caveats. Some people might experience digestive discomfort if they consume too much too quickly. But that's like anything Same thing with sugar, alcohols. Some people tolerate them just fine. Some people have gas, bloating, lots of things that are not great. So always start slowly, look at the dosage, increase gradually.

Philip Pape: 10:58

If you are an athlete or a lifter which should be most of you listening if you lift weights, you are an athlete. If you listen to this podcast and do it the way we talk about it. You are an athlete, I don't care your age, your gender, your previous lifestyle. So for us, some evidence suggests that allulose might help preserve muscle glycogen and that can potentially benefit performance and recovery. So that piques my interest. Okay, now, I haven't done it myself, using it as a pre-workout, but maybe you're going to see this in more pre-workouts, I don't know. We'll, we'll see how it goes. Um, all of this evidence is preliminary, so it always takes a while, like years, for this stuff, stuff, get it to get in there. Uh, but the mechanism makes sense because of its effect on glucose disposal, that it would help preserve muscle glycogen. Um, so something fascinating that I think is going to tie all this together, because this episode isn't going to be too long.

Philip Pape: 11:47

Allulose isn't just affecting our metabolism through GLP-1. The latest research suggests it might help reprogram how our bodies handle carbohydrates entirely. Okay, so think about that. This is a sugar that teaches your body to process other sugars more efficiently, and kind of working with our metabolism in a way, and who knows what that's gonna result in. I'm always skeptical of these kinds of things because at the end of the day, I think we can overthink it and again having balance, having the right level of macros. Having nutritious foods, having sufficient fiber and protein, are plenty to focus on for most people and will do the job. But if you're looking for little optimalities or ways to sweeten things up that are not sugar or not an artificial sweetener, this could be a really cool little corner case. So just to recap first, allulose is a natural sugar that stimulates GLP-1, similar to, but a lot more modestly than, modern weight loss meds. Second, research shows promising effects on blood sugar control, appetite and, potentially, fat loss. And third, its practical use is important in terms of its ability to use for cooking and baking, but always start gradually and dose up so you can see how you tolerate it. All right, whether you're looking to optimize metabolism, manage blood sugar, support fat loss, iolos is a very interesting tool out there in our nutrition toolbox. It's not a miracle Like none of these things are miracle, or superfoods or anything like that but it seems to be a scientifically supported option that works with our body's natural processes and I wouldn't fear it, just like I wouldn't fear pretty much any food at this point, and we're already seeing it in approved products. So there is that. All right.

Philip Pape: 13:29

If today's episode sparked any questions about this or any other aspects of nutrition and body composition. I do wanna hear from you with our new Ask a Question form. Go to whitsonweightscom slash question or click the link in the show notes Again. Whitsonweightscom slash question Sub question. Or click the link in the show notes Again. Witsandweightscom slash question. Submit a question to me and you will get a personal answer by email and then I will turn it into an episode and feature you on the podcast, if you want. That helps shape the podcast and give you what you want. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember sometimes the most powerful solutions are the ones that work with our biology and not against them. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights podcast. I'll talk to you next time.

Make This ONE Change for Better Sleep, HRV, and Fat Loss (Dr. Peter Martone) | Ep 280

Download my free Better Sleep, Better Body guide to optimize your sleep for fat loss, body composition, and hormones

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Could your sleep position be holding you back from optimal recovery? You track your training, nutrition, and HRV—but what about your neck alignment during sleep? 

Dr. Peter Martone joins me to explain how your sleep position affects your nervous system, HRV, and overall performance. He reveals how traditional sleeping positions might be sabotaging your recovery and shares practical tips to start fixing it—tonight.

Dr. Peter Martone is a chiropractor and exercise physiologist with over 25 years of experience. Through his research, he discovered how sleep position and spinal alignment impact nervous system function, recovery, and pain. He has helped thousands optimize their sleep and performance through proper positioning. 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:12 – What is a "sleep avatar," and why does it matter?
06:28 – How Dr. Martone discovered the link between sleep and spinal health
10:30 – The one sleep change that fixed Dr. Martone’s chronic pain
14:13 – How your sleep position affects your nervous system and HRV
20:09 – The #1 mistake people make with pillows (and how to fix it)
25:47 – Why side sleeping could be causing your shoulder pain
30:42 – The real reason for imbalances and chronic pain
35:35 – How sleep position impacts snoring and sleep apnea
41:18 – The easiest way to start fixing your sleep position

Episode resources:

• Website: drsleepright.com

• Instagram: @drsleepright

The One Sleep Change That Can Transform Your Recovery, HRV, and Fat Loss

Most people think optimizing sleep is all about going to bed earlier, using blackout curtains, or avoiding blue light. But what if your sleep position—the way your body is aligned when you sleep—was the real key to better recovery, higher HRV, and even more efficient fat loss?

In this article, we break down what Dr. Peter Martone shared on the Wits & Weights podcast about why your sleep posture matters more than you think. You’ll learn:

✔ How your sleep position affects your nervous system and recovery
✔ Why side sleeping might be contributing to pain, poor HRV, and even weight gain
✔ The best way to sleep for long-term health and performance

Why Sleep Position Matters More Than You Think

We all know sleep is essential for fat loss, muscle recovery, and overall health. But most sleep advice focuses on surface-level factors like:

• Sleeping in a cold, dark room

• Avoiding screens before bed

• Using supplements like magnesium or melatonin

While these can help, they don’t address a critical factor: how your spine and nervous system are aligned during sleep.

🔹 Your nervous system controls everything from recovery to metabolism
🔹 Neck and spine alignment directly affect HRV, stress levels, and hormone balance
🔹 Sleeping in the wrong position can reinforce poor posture, increase stress, and disrupt sleep cycles

According to Dr. Martone, side sleeping and stomach sleeping can misalign your neck and spine, leading to:

❌ Shoulder and hip pain (especially if you lift weights)
❌ Lower HRV (Heart Rate Variability), making you more sensitive to stress
❌ Inefficient recovery, which can impact muscle growth and fat loss

Instead, the ideal position for sleep is on your back with proper neck support.

The Best Sleep Position for Recovery and HRV

If you want to improve your HRV, reduce pain, and recover better from training, here’s how to optimize your sleep position:

1. Support Your Neck, Not Your Head

Most pillows push your head forward, worsening neck posture and increasing stress on the spine.

✅ Instead of a traditional pillow, use a small support under your neck, allowing your head to rest slightly back.
✅ This helps restore the natural curve of your cervical spine, reducing tension and improving nerve function.

2. Start Sleeping on Your Back

While side sleeping feels comfortable, it puts your shoulders and spine in a compromised position, leading to joint pain and poor recovery.

✅ Transition to back sleeping with your neck supported to allow optimal spinal alignment.
✅ This position promotes better lymphatic drainage, improved vagus nerve function, and reduced cortisol levels.

3. Add Pressure for Comfort

Your subconscious brain associates pressure with safety, which is why many people instinctively curl into a ball when they sleep.

✅ Use a weighted blanket or an extra pillow on your chest or side to mimic the security of side sleeping without sacrificing alignment.
✅ This helps your nervous system relax into deep sleep faster, improving HRV and recovery.

How Sleep Position Affects HRV and Fat Loss

HRV (Heart Rate Variability) is one of the best indicators of nervous system health and recovery. A higher HRV means better stress resilience, while a low HRV suggests chronic stress and poor recovery.

Research shows that **proper sleep posture can:

✅ Increase HRV, helping your body handle stress better
✅ Reduce cortisol, the stress hormone linked to belly fat storage
✅ Improve parasympathetic nervous system function, which controls digestion, recovery, and fat metabolism

By simply adjusting your sleep position, you can enhance your ability to recover from workouts, optimize hormone balance, and even improve fat loss over time.

The Biggest Sleep Mistakes That Sabotage Recovery

Want better sleep, faster recovery, and a higher HRV?

Avoid these common sleep mistakes:

❌ Sleeping on your side with a thick pillow – This misaligns the spine and compresses nerves.
❌ Using a pillow that supports your head instead of your neck – Leads to forward head posture and poor vagus nerve function.
❌ Eating too close to bedtime – Digestion keeps heart rate elevated, disrupting deep sleep.
❌ Ignoring stress before bed – High nighttime stress = lower HRV and poor recovery.

How to Test if Your Sleep Position is Hurting Your Recovery

If you track your sleep with an Oura Ring, WHOOP, or other HRV monitor, try this:

1️⃣ Check your HRV before adjusting your sleep position
2️⃣ Sleep in the optimal back-sleeping position with neck support for one week
3️⃣ Compare your HRV, resting heart rate, and sleep quality

Most people see measurable improvements in recovery, deeper sleep, and less morning stiffness within days.

My Final Thoughts

If you’ve been struggling with recovery, low HRV, or stubborn fat loss, your sleep position might be the missing link.

By simply supporting your neck properly, starting on your back, and using strategic pressure, you can:

✅ Improve nervous system function
✅ Enhance recovery between workouts
✅ Boost HRV and resilience to stress
✅ Support fat loss and muscle growth

Sleep isn’t just about getting enough hours—it’s about positioning your body for optimal recovery.

Try these simple changes tonight, and you might wake up stronger, leaner, and more rested than ever before.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

We all know that sleep is super important and you might even be tracking your sleep, your training, your nutrition, your HRV, your aura ring all of that. But what if your sleep position is the thing holding you back? Your neck alignment, for example, during sleep, affects your nervous system and your recovery. Well, in this episode, sleep expert Dr Peter Martone is on to share how traditional sleeping positions might be working against you and shares a better approach that could help you out. You'll learn why neck position impacts everything from HRV to recovery and get some practical tips to implement, starting tonight. Whether you wake up with stiff shoulders, can't seem to recover between workouts, or you just want to optimize your rest, this episode will change how you think about sleep and sleep position.

Philip Pape: 0:51

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're examining how sleep position affects your recovery and results with Dr Peter Martone. Drawing from over 25 years as a chiropractor and exercise physiologist, peter discovered some profound connections between neck position during sleep and nervous system function, and he's helped thousands optimize their sleep through proper positioning. So today you're going to learn how your sleep position influences nervous system function, why the way you currently sleep might be compromising your recovery, and some practical tips to improve your sleep, starting tonight. Dr Martone, welcome to the show.

Dr. Peter Martone: 1:36

That was a great interview. Thank you for being I mean a great introduction. Wow, you've really summed up everything. I think we're done you did it.

Philip Pape: 1:43

There you go. Yeah, no, you just said that the interview is done. Yeah, there we go. No, that's awesome, you know, for the folks listening. Dr Martone gets around the podcast circuit for sure, and I first heard him on another podcast and it blew me away, because we talk about sleep a lot in the nutrition and training world. It's kind of the same things over and over, though it's the sleep hacks 's, the, you know, the cold, uh, the cold dark room with the sleep mask and the avoiding blue light and all of that. But I want to get into this very special angle that you come at it from with position, and my first question really is what exactly is a sleep avatar? Because I think that would lead to this very well I think that that is.

Dr. Peter Martone: 2:22

That is so. And listen. All the advice from the experts out there. It's great, it's all a piece of the pie, but in moving into this field I realized that they're missing the crust, and the crust is the connection that we live our life. And by the end of this podcast, if anybody wants to improve their performance, take their training to the next level, take their injury recovery to the next level.

Dr. Peter Martone: 2:48

You have to understand one thing that we live our life through our nervous system and everything we do through recovery, through, you know, digesting food, how we digest food, is all controlled by the nervous system. So when you eat food, putting that food in your system, that's not what makes you healthy. It's your body adaptation to that food, and that is all driven neurologically. So when I took that understanding and then I applied it to sleep, you can see that all the advice is great Lie in a cold room. That helps Make it quiet, shut off the TV. All of these things are super important. But what's happening right now? How you're listening to this, let's say, this podcast, that podcast is happening in real time, but you're not listening to it in reality. You're accepting this podcast through your sight through sound. So you're basically your brain is integrating the information and what you're listening to is a distortion of reality. And so what one person's experience might be listening to this podcast the same exact podcast somebody else could have a very this podcast the same exact podcast somebody else could have a very, very different experience because it's driven through our nervous system.

Dr. Peter Martone: 4:09

So when you think about our nervous system, we have basically some specific needs. You're in fight or flight, where you're in like training, or you're in growth or in a repair when you're sleeping. So think about when you are running from a tiger. You're in the stressful state, and that stressful state some people live there emotionally. So if you live in stress, one of the fundamental underlying needs for sleep is safety. So some people require a lot more safety than others. Some people curl up in a ball to sleep and some people can sleep opened up. So, your avatar, we've designed this very specific test at drsleeprightcom, where you take these I don't know, maybe it's 10, 15, 20 questions and it identifies what animal you need to sleep like. Basically, what it's doing is it's identifying what your subconscious need for safety is, and then, by doing that, I give you specific advice based on what your avatar score is or what animal avatar you are. Are you a gorilla, are you an armadillo or are you an ostrich?

Philip Pape: 5:19

Yeah, gorilla, armadillo, ostrich Good, I want to be able to get into that. First, I want to say I didn't take offense that you said this was a distortion of reality, because the context you put it in made 100% sense. I'm a fan of the matrix, by the way, so you got me going there through the senses. But it's true. All of existence that we perceive is through our senses, and even philosophers over the centuries have argued what is real right. So what's really cool about this, peter, is we talk about the central nervous system a lot, with stress and also with training, but we don't drop that connection in very much when it comes to sleep. I'm realizing that myself.

Philip Pape: 5:57

I've talked about sleep a lot and helped many clients with it, and I don't often put it in that context. So that's going to be super helpful as you move forward. And then the need for safety. I just had a guest on talking about the need for safety with our food choices, how we go to food for comfort, and it's just all so primal. So I want to understand about these three animals. I'd be curious what I am. I haven't taken the test yet, but I'm going to do that. You said the gorilla, the armadillo and the.

Dr. Peter Martone: 6:25

The gorilla, the armadillo and the ostrich, and the ostrich. Okay, so now we're in the second step, right? So let's just let's talk about where this came from. Actually, let's just go all the way back and tell you why I'm even in the sleep industry.

Philip Pape: 6:38

Okay, good, yeah, why are you in? It? Does position matter? All of that?

Dr. Peter Martone: 6:42

This was nuts. So I'm an exercise physiologist. I trained in UMass, amherst in Australia. I was a professional trainer in Australia and it was. So I'm an exercise physiologist. I love the study of biomechanics. I geeked out on it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 6:57

I loved the shoulder, but I always had pain. I always had pain in my shoulder. I always had back pain. I went through chiropractic school always had pain, even adjusting patients. I'd teach patients how to get out of pain, but I myself always had pain.

Dr. Peter Martone: 7:11

I attributed it to being a competitive mountain biker skydive, rock climb. I do anything to scratch the itch of having ADD that can drive me to adrenaline. Right, because stimulation is what calms somebody that has a brain that goes a million miles a minute. So I was driven to stimulation.

Dr. Peter Martone: 7:32

And then, you know, my best friend was in a tragic accident, died right in front of me. We were on quads and it flipped over and landed on him. You know, I gave him CPR and it set me into a negative dalwich spiral, just a a dark, dark place where I never wanted to be again. And um, so I was there and I was mountain biking, taking crazy risks, just had my first child and I jumped off this drop. It was about a 10 foot drop on my mountain bike and I felt a little tweak in my lower back and and you know I have had it before it wasn't really too big of an issue. But then after the next couple days, I went down. All I did was pick up a pencil and blew out my disc. Now I'm. I remember I was in so much pain I I told my wife I'm like I call the ambulance, I can't move, and she's like I'll take you to the hospital. What's wrong? I'm like you don't understand. I can't move.

Philip Pape: 8:33

Yeah, unless you could pick me up, I can't move.

Dr. Peter Martone: 8:35

Leg was numb and I had so much morphine. By the time I got to the hospital they asked my wife if I was a drug addict, because I was in that much pain and I can remember me in the emergency room saying how does it get to this? I'm a chiropractor, I understand biomechanics, but I myself can't help myself. So once I got out of the hospital I said I'm not going to have surgery. I got to figure this out. So I reviewed 3,000 x-rays at the time and I just I knew, knew there was a pattern. I just couldn't really put my consciousness to it. So I started reviewing x-rays, reviewing x-rays, looking at cervical x-rays and how they relate to lumbar x-rays.

Dr. Peter Martone: 9:13

Cervical is the neck, lumbar is the back, cervical lumbar, cervical lumbar. And I found this correlation that in our body we're supposed to have curves. You have a cervical curve and the lumbar curve is the same curve. But when you lose the cervical curve, which I had, I had a little bit of a loss of curve, never any pain in my neck. The reactive response due to what's called dura mater tension is a curve in the lower back and that curve in the lower back happens through the psoas major muscle, which is another thing that we found. And the psoas is the only muscle in the human body that attaches directly to a disc. So I didn't have back pain all these years because I wasn't getting adjusted enough or because I wasn't stretching enough.

Dr. Peter Martone: 9:58

It was because I had loss of cervical curve, picking up pelvic rotation, doing an adaptive response, and I'm like, holy shit, are you kidding me, ken? And that was a side sleeper. I used to curl up in my ball because my physiology loves protection, had shoulder issues, hip issues, and I'm like wait a second If I can spend, because I know long, long stretching is the best type of stretching, because I know long, long stretching is the best type of stretching, so I can spend one third of my life stretching my neck back, making sure I can reestablish that curve. In theory, at the time it should be able to take the pressure off my low back and fix my disc problem, and that's what ended up happening.

Dr. Peter Martone: 10:40

I started jamming pillows up under my neck until I created this neckness and then I started to transform the health of my spine and then I transferred that to my patients. So that's really what drew me into the sleep industry. It wasn't because I wanted to help people sleep. I wanted to fix their spines while they slept, and that is why our approach is so much different, because I come from all of this, this wholism, this, this holistic approach to healthcare, and now we've adapted that entire thing to sleep and increasing performance.

Philip Pape: 11:17

Yeah, no, it makes sense Mixing the biomechanics with the nervous system, with your individual propensity for that. What I want to understand, peter, is the three avatars you mentioned. It's a safety thing, but there's also a biomechanical or physical thing. I mean, I guess it's in the questionnaire, but I'm trying to understand how someone decides what they are, and then is the solution very different between them, or is there like a baseline set of things that are practical for everyone to use?

Dr. Peter Martone: 11:45

So then what we do is we have this triune of sleep, and this is where the avatar comes in. You have the conscious brain, the subconscious brain and then the body. Okay, the body wants alignment, that's all it wants. It doesn't want to be in pinning. And this is where the trick is the subconscious brain, the fundamental need for the subconscious brain. It doesn't know posture, it knows pressure, and the subconscious brain wants to feel safe in order to sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: 12:16

Right, when I grew up in Malden, massachusetts, I was on a busy street and kids would bang on the window and it would scare the heck out of me. So I was always afraid to go to sleep. So I curled up in a ball, I put all these stuffed animals around me, and only when I felt safe was my body able to fall asleep. So different people, depending on their types of personality, require more safety than others. And so let's say you're a gorilla, okay, everybody needs to start in the same position. You're a human, you need your weight distributed over the greatest surface area and everybody needs to start in a specific position. Now your conscious brain is going to say you can't do it. But what your conscious brain is mistaking for comfort, it's the subconscious brain saying this isn't a safe position. That is what we have to understand. So we put the body in alignment. Then we need to figure out a plan to be able to create safety for the subconscious brain, because once you fall asleep, the conscious brain is out of it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 13:15

The subconscious brain controls sleep. So if you can identify the amount of safety somebody needs, some people need to put a pillow on their head, like the ostrich. The ostrich needs to stick to you. They're the stomach sleepers. They need all of that pressure on their chest. They put pillows over their heads. They need to stick their head in the ground to feel safe. The armadillo curls up in a ball. The gorilla has no enemy, so it can fall asleep anywhere. The gorilla has no enemy, so it can fall asleep anywhere. So, depending on which avatar you are, then I can tell you how you need to create safety in order to fall asleep in the aligned position, and then the avatar tells us what technique you need to use to shut off the conscious brain.

Philip Pape: 14:01

Okay, that makes sense. And before we go further, one thing that always comes up for me is the ability to fall asleep doesn't always correlate with the restfulness of the sleep, right? So when someone has no problem just falling asleep, I imagine it's still possible that they're still not in the maximum safe position for them just because of that. Is that correct?

Dr. Peter Martone: 14:23

Yeah, and that's where, like the five pillars of sleep and body temperature, what time you're eating stimulants you have. We have this way better sleep academy where we address all of that, because once you close your eyes, people are like, oh, I can have a cup of coffee and fall right asleep. Oh yeah, you can. Of course you can, but your heart rate's still high, keeping you out of deep sleep, so you're not getting deep restorative sleep. Test still high, keeping you out of deep sleep, so you're not getting deep restorative sleep. Testosterone levels are going to be cranked, adrenal glands are going to be cranked, but you wake up eight hours later and you think you slept great, but you didn't go through the natural cycles. And that's all the technical aspects of sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: 14:55

And so what we really try to do, especially for that performance in that athlete, when you're looking at pain, pain is biomechanics. Biomechanics follow head position. So most people that have a shoulder issue or a hip issue have a neck issue because their head's too far forward and, due to the writing reflex, your balance is getting thrown off because most people are going to lean to the side of a sprained ankle. So the balance is coming over and the spine is twisting the head's coming forward, then you put that on the load in the gym. Then you're just going to hurt something. Because we want to start with alignment at night, especially for the athlete.

Philip Pape: 15:35

Okay, so just a little bit more on the biomechanics and the physiology behind this, and then I want to get some practical tips for folks. You mentioned the nervous system. Where does the vagus nerve come in here? I think you talk about that a lot in your work as well. Why that matters. It also comes up when talking about stress and relaxation and meditation and all sorts of other topics.

Dr. Peter Martone: 15:57

Yeah, so the vagus nerve controls sleep. So the opposite of sleep is awake. So awake is sympathetic dominance. So the opposite of lifting would be growth. So you have growth in defense. So when you are engaging the muscle, your body is in defense. When you are repairing the muscle, the body is in growth.

Dr. Peter Martone: 16:17

So those two things are like a seesaw. Each one of them is controlled by a very specific nervous system. And the issue is the nervous system is controlled by our emotions. So sympathetic stress whether you're running from a tiger because you're being chased or your body thinks you're running from a tiger, you're going to have a stimulation, you're going to have a stimulant response, which is why emotions affect sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: 16:43

So the opposite of that is the parasympathetic nervous system. So the parasympathetic nervous system 80% of all the healing that goes on in your body, your body's ability to sleep. It controls three areas immune system, digestive system and reproductive system. So most people don't just have a problem with one of those systems. You have a problem with all three because there's an issue and a dysfunction within the vagus nerve. Now, the important thing about the vagus nerve is that it comes out right at the base of the neck, so when you lose the curve. You are just, you are tanking your vagal nerve function. So because we sleep curled up in a ball, a lot of times people can't sleep because their vagal tone is getting compressed due to the loss of cervical curve and the position is reinforcing that inability, like a weak muscle for you to turn on that deep healing capacity of the vagus nerve, because it's being compressed like stepping on a garden hose.

Philip Pape: 17:45

Okay, great. No, I'm glad you connected all those. So then, if you want to capture a baseline of where you are now based on all of this I don't know if it's like HRV, because I know you've talked about HRV having a big potential impact and improvement when you address this but what would people want to be measuring, like right now today, knowing they haven't touched anything, and then you know, once they've addressed the neck positioning and other factors, they can see an improvement. What would that be?

Dr. Peter Martone: 18:11

yeah, the best thing in this is that's how you brought it up. And I don't care what monitor you're using, whether it's fitbit, whether it's apple, whether it's Fitbit, whether it's Apple Watch, whether it's Oura Ring, it doesn't matter. You just need to be consistent. Whatever you're monitoring. And I like HRV, because HRV, which is heart rate variability, basically monitors the balance between the sympathetics and the parasympathetics, the balance between the sympathetics and the parasympathetics, the balance between the running from a tiger or that survive nervous system or that thrive nervous system.

Dr. Peter Martone: 18:45

When you are surviving and you're running from a tiger, that heart rate needs to be very rhythmic and the body needs to be able to depend on the amount of sugar getting to the cell like clockwork. That's a rhythmic heart rate, believe it or not. If you have a 60 beat per minute heart rate, that's one beat every second. That's not good. You want it variable, like bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. So one beat might be in 0.5 seconds, another beat might be in a second, Next one a second and a half, next one three quarters of a second. So you want that variability within the heart rate because that means the parasympathetic nervous system is at play. So when the parasympathetic nervous system is at play. In your sleeping, your heart rate is very variable. When you're awake and you're running from a tiger, it's very non-variable, so you can then take a reading over a period of a day and see how calm your system is and being able to see how well your body's repair.

Philip Pape: 19:42

That's one of the best explanations I've heard for HRV, because it's a confusing concept for people and even if you have an O-ring like I do, and you know you learn and dive into this subject people don't quite always get it, and your description of it being a gap between your sympathetic and parasympathetic meaning that the more of a calm state you can get into, the more it's going to vary is a good visual for that. So then I guess then I want to get into the positioning stuff, because you talked about a pillow, you talked about the curling up and whatever based on the avatar. I mean, what are all the things that people are going to potentially adjust when they fix their sleep position? All right, sleep position. Is this going to potentially adjust when they fix their sleep position.

Dr. Peter Martone: 20:19

All right, sleep position. Is this going to be audio visual? What is it?

Philip Pape: 20:22

it's mainly audio, I mean, you know, but but we have the video.

Dr. Peter Martone: 20:25

We do have the on youtube yeah, so this is what's going to do. What I'm going to do is I'm going to put myself in the position and you're going to explain what I'm doing okay, all right, okay, here we got it so I will move my audio here.

Dr. Peter Martone: 20:40

My thing oh, I got my spine on the bed, so I'm going to be using right now to do a neck nurse. This is something that we created, but if you have a soft down pillow or you have like a blanket, you can put under your neck. What's important is that you support so anytime you support something in the body you can put under your neck. What's important is that you support so. Anytime you support something in the body, you weaken it Anytime. I don't care what you're supporting. Anytime you support the body, you weaken it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 21:06

So when you use a pillow a pillow is defined as a support for your head You're weakening the cervical curve in your neck. You do not want to support your head when you sleep, but if you support your head or you use a cervical pillow and it goes under your neck and it's supporting your head at the same time, that's even worse. So you want some sort of force. If you have a bad curve, like I did, you want some sort of force applied to the neck that gently stretches and arch back into the neck and that would be distraction. So you support your neck, but you use the weight of your head off of the back of the neck nest or whatever you're using, so that your head is basically almost three quarters of an inch or an inch off the bed and it's gently like a slinky, like a weight up the end of a slinky.

Dr. Peter Martone: 22:01

It's gently stretching the curve back into your neck, even though you're supporting the neck by using the weight of your head as a distractive force. The body reacts to force, a force. Stress is a force that causes change, so that is what will reintroduce the curve back into your neck.

Philip Pape: 22:20

Okay, yeah, it makes total sense. So only support your neck. Your head hangs back a little bit. So Peter is about to lay down on his bed here in the video and he's just got a looks like a soft pillow squished up under his neck, just like he explained, and the back of his head is up a bit from the surface.

Dr. Peter Martone: 22:40

Yeah, I know. And when most people okay, here we go, right, we're going to talk about this. So when most people see that, right, it's like you're sleeping in a coffin the first thing that people say is I can't do that. I get it, you do not have control Right now. Any decision you're making is the conscious brain, so we know that that decision's flawed because the conscious brain makes all the excuses. It's why you don't do it. It's the problem. So let's talk to your conscious brain. Hello, consciousness, I get it. You can't do that. You're not in control.

Dr. Peter Martone: 23:13

I'm talking to your friend who is actually in control, like in my house my wife. You talk to my wife if you want to get anything done. So I'm going to talk to the subconscious brain. Subconscious brain, I know you can do this, but what you're saying is it's not safe and you don't feel safe doing it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 23:28

Listen, all we need to do is fall asleep like this and then, once you fall asleep in this position every night, I don't care what you do. So that's the lifestyle habit. The lifestyle habit is not to be a back sleeper with something under your neck and think that you're not going to be able to sleep like that Get like what every other expert tells you. Oh, you know, fall asleep on your side, that's the best position. Listen, idiot, not an idiot talking like the subconscious brain. You're not in control. I'm not talking like the subconscious brain. You're not in control. Once you fall asleep on your side and your arm's in this position, try to watch a two-hour movie in the position you fall asleep in. It's not possible. So for somebody to tell you that you can fall asleep on your side and that's the best position, you're only in that position for 20 minutes and then the average person tosses and turns 20 to 40 times a night because they're giving them the wrong explanation, because they don't understand spinal biomechanics.

Philip Pape: 24:28

And when you do this thing with your neck, you don't do that, so like what? Inevitably you're going to stay in that position. Is that what you're saying?

Dr. Peter Martone: 24:33

Yeah. So when you I don't want you to think about the whole night, but when you fall asleep in that position, right, everybody needs to start in that position, I get it. Your airway might be an issue. You snore, you have apnea. It's worse in that position. I get all of that. We have tricks and tools to help people overcome those things, but you want to start the body in alignment. Then the next trick is then be able to create the pressure from sleeping on your side, mimic that in the back sleeping position. So, for instance, if I get all right, I'm going to show you one more thing right here. So if I'm a back sleeper, if I'm a side sleeper, okay, I sleep on my side. That's pressure against my face, okay. So what you can do, you take neck nurse, put it on your neck but put a pillow against your face.

Philip Pape: 25:28

Put a pillow against your face on the side, okay.

Dr. Peter Martone: 25:33

Right or put a pillow on your side. You is. How important is it for you and how much safety or pressure do you need to create in order to allow the subconscious brain to have to stay in that position?

Philip Pape: 25:46

Oh man, okay, so, yeah, it makes total sense now. So if your body is inclined to want to go onto its side, you're giving it the safety so that, even if it tries to, it's now snuggled in that pillow and you're remaining aligned.

Dr. Peter Martone: 25:57

Okay, beautiful, yeah, that makes total sense and nobody has ever this has taken so much understanding, because these concepts that you know we have, like spare breathing and all of these things, they didn't exist before, because everybody you know takes the. They look at the 2015 study that was done on rats and say that side sleeping is the best for humans. But even though there's a significant study, this is a gold standard. The gold standard study that tells people that lymphatic drainage happens best on your side was done on a rodent. The rodent spine is completely off the cervical spine is completely opposite the human spine and in there there's a significant, same say, significant statement saying, even though this was done on rodents, we're extrapolating that the same is going to be done for humans.

Dr. Peter Martone: 26:48

And this goes through the entire industry and and it's like it drives me bonkers. So I said I gotta figure out where that study is, because I didn't know that it was done on rodents. I'm like, because there's something flawed because lymphatic drainage only occurs with ease is if the cervical biomechanics are good, because it's flow of the heart with breath around the spinal cord that you you need that cervical spinal flow, and if you have a breakdown in the proper spinal biomechanics of your body. You're backing all that stuff up cause like heart pressure, blood pressure and all sorts of different issues. And that's when I saw the study and I'm like that makes perfect sense.

Philip Pape: 27:30

That makes sense. Yeah, the findings were that, but it does not apply to humans. I mean, I could tell you that from my girl's hamsters, that they're very different creatures than us.

Stephanie: 27:37

I could tell you that from my girls, hamsters, that they're very different creatures than us. The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 28:23

So we're going to break it down into different pieces here. You mentioned somebody with shoulder pain right, and again, I know lots of people who lived right. They have various issues that come across over time and sometimes they seem to not go away, even if they have surgery, even if they have physical therapy, even if they're doing everything they can to train around it. Maybe it's because of their sleep. I mean, how does that cascade or those mechanisms work to then say, somebody who had rotator cuff surgery and just never quite could recover, now, all of a sudden, is pain free?

Dr. Peter Martone: 28:51

You give me a side sleeper, I'm going to give you a shoulder problem.

Philip Pape: 28:55

Okay, so that's me, that's me.

Dr. Peter Martone: 28:56

I'm speaking for myself. I can see it because your head shifted to the left side, your hip is going to go to the other side and your shoulder is internally rotated. So when you have that, your body posture adjusts to head position. Then Davis's law so writing reflex says body posture adjusts to head position, so the head comes forward. Davis's law says tissue remolds based on the stresses applied.

Dr. Peter Martone: 29:19

So if you're sleeping on your side, you're internally rotating the shoulder, so you're stretching out and you're weakening most people because we're not rock climbers, we're not climbing things have inferior trap issues. The inferior trap is the main muscle that causes shoulder issues and impingement syndromes. Most people believe that the rotator cuffs are the problem. They're not the problem, they're just they're getting worn down because the altered biomechanics of the shoulder, because the shoulder blades. We have weak inferior traps. The inferior trap is done only with one exercise Grab the bar and squeeze your shoulders together. So the blade needs to squeeze together and then that will bring the shoulders back. But if you continue to sleep on your side, you're going to continue.

Philip Pape: 30:07

You're offsetting it? Yeah, cause even uh, dead hangs are known to be helpful. But, like you said, if you're just making the root cause worse, it's not going to help, okay.

Dr. Peter Martone: 30:15

That is a good as long as you go up and down a little bit and just get that flow. But that's what it's doing. It's reversing what? So? The rotator cuff right, supraspinatus, infraspinatus subscapularis and teres minor All of them, you know, most of them do this. Only two of them do external rotation, but none of them really retract the shoulder blades, which is what causes the impingement syndrome, the shoulder riding up into the capsule.

Philip Pape: 30:42

Makes a lot of sense. So I assume similar logic follows for everything down the whole posterior chain when you get to the low back, because low back's the next big hitter, would you say, or from your experience.

Dr. Peter Martone: 30:52

Well, the big hitter is the eyes right. So it's the eyes. Everything wants to level the eyes Now, oh, I got a short right leg. I got a short. That's all bullshit. Those are all adaptation to forward head posture.

Philip Pape: 31:05

Oh, when people say I have asymmetry or whatnot, that's what you're saying, yeah.

Dr. Peter Martone: 31:08

Yeah. So most people are like oh, it's the leg, and they saw a therapist and they say I have to work down here. I got to work on my core more. It's not your core, it's not your core, it's proprioception, it's balance. So it's innervation to the muscle. See, muscles are minions. They're always being told what to do. They're being told by the neurology. So if a muscle is in spasm, it's either moving something or protecting something. That's it. So we have to stop looking at the muscle structure and seeing why it's out of balance. It's out of balance because we're losing. I don't want to get technical, but it's all right, get technical.

Philip Pape: 31:43

It's all good.

Dr. Peter Martone: 31:43

The premise in our brain is atrophy. So, for instance, for you, what I want you to do is go to your screen, look at me through your screen and bring that circle back to your eye. What? Do you mean Like, so make a circle, okay, yeah, and look at me through the lens of the iris of the webcam.

Philip Pape: 32:01

Okay, yeah, it's like a teleprompter, so hopefully I'm doing it All right, make it smaller, make a circle.

Dr. Peter Martone: 32:06

Now bring that back to your eye. Okay, I could, so your right eye.

Philip Pape: 32:11

So now, oh, I see, yeah, you're telling me eyes that are dominant, and I got it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 32:15

Are you right-handed or left-handed? Right-handed, do you kick with your right foot or your left foot, right foot and do you do anything ambidextrous? No, okay, good, so you're fully lateralized. So that fully lateralized neurology is a lot easier to work with than and if you kick a ball, you're going to kick it with your right foot, correct? Yep, for sure it is a lot easier to work with.

Dr. Peter Martone: 32:41

Sleep wise, and one of the issues is you're constricted because I can see it in the way you stand in the frontal plane. So what happens is, as we lean forward or as we atrophy the brain people walk forward. That's why people have foot issues or toe issues. Yeah, you can see it right there. So when you're leaning forward, so when you go to sleep on your back, your body it's a lot of people are going to have nightmares, thinking because it's not safe, because the head's in that extension and you you're not safe in that that backwards plane.

Dr. Peter Martone: 33:10

So you want to work on balance to retrain the neurology, like we're working on a pack right now, on a specific wobble board that quantifies balance. But you want to work on like, just get a wobble board, not a bose ball, it needs to be a wobble board, like really hard wobble board which is a circle with the ball on the bottom and you want to stand on it and and have upright posture. Most I mean most people fall backwards or they fall forwards and they're constricted in one of those planes, but but that is what's firing the patterns wrong. So with all of my athletes, I have them immediately work on balance, because that is the best way to retrain the symmetry of the body. You don't look at it and say, oh, you need to do more on the left psoas, because you're not in control.

Dr. Peter Martone: 34:00

The subconscious brain's in control. It's your nervous system. Yeah, yeah, everything's the nervous system.

Philip Pape: 34:04

No, no, it makes sense, Like I'm thinking robots and gyroscopes and I'm thinking Segway, Like, oh, that's going through my engineering brain of how like all that stays balanced with counteracting forces that you don't even think about. Think about just like with lifting. You know, sometimes just being able to lift with the major movement patterns can resolve some quote unquote imbalances and such that people thought they had, because you're training things as a system, so you're talking about your nervous system. So, okay, this is good, man, I didn't realize I'd get my own coaching session here, but this is good for people listening because they're like now they can walk through the process.

Dr. Peter Martone: 34:37

And you sprained your right ankle, by the way, just to let you know.

Philip Pape: 34:40

I sprained my right ankle. Yeah, you think I did.

Dr. Peter Martone: 34:43

Turn your head to the left side my head to just my head, yeah. And now turn your head to the right, as far as it'll go. See how far you go to the right side and you don't go as far to the left. Yeah, that's coming up from an old ankle sprain. So the talus is pumped forward. It's possible, man, I've had injuries over the years. It's possible, yeah, but your body is leaning to that ankle sprain and then the heads go in the opposite way. So that's the mechanics, so you know, so that biomechanics of that right ankle need to be addressed. So you stand in on one foot on that wobble board, you work on proprioception, you retrain the brain to get out of pain. That's where, like, all of my work was done in that whole area before, and then it moved into the ADD world, then into the sleep world. So that's kind of where all that stuff is put together.

Philip Pape: 35:29

Wobble board sounds like fun. It reminds me of the. Uh what would? I grew up in the eighties. They had the. It looked. It looked like a board with the ball. That was the pogo ball. I know you said not that like the hard one, but still made me think of that. What about people with um, like sleep apnea, snoring issues, does? Where does that come into play with all of this?

Dr. Peter Martone: 35:45

no, that's great. Those are things that have to be overcome with airway management, but it does not change the position. So we have to have anchors. An anchor is something that is is law 100 of the time. So so writing reflex Davis' law, wolf's law and these are laws that they're not denied it's like gravity. You can't deny that. So in one of the laws that we've applied, is that your nervous system controls everything in the body. How important is it that nervous system functions optimally Extremely important While the spine protects your central nervous system. How important is it to maintain the integrity of the spine versus a 2% increase in heart rate, blood pressure when you sleep on your back? It's absolutely asinine when you're looking at things and comparing them to the overall yeah trade-offs.

Philip Pape: 36:33

first principles yeah, right.

Dr. Peter Martone: 36:35

So everybody, regardless of the airway. That's where the academy can come in, right. It can help people overcome things with understanding and learning. We're doing high level view, but you should always just start on your back with the pillow under your neck, put the body into alignment, create safety and then you know remember yourself to sleep, don't think yourself to sleep. So you got to get out of your own mind and you put those three things together. It'll transform the way that you sleep and will transform your results in the gym and improve your performance.

Philip Pape: 37:08

Something came to mind just totally off the wall. Is there any connection with your dreams and this like level of safety in the way you sleep? Like you mentioned the falling back, and I'm like I've always had dreams where I'm falling at the end in my nightmare and that's how I wake up.

Dr. Peter Martone: 37:20

Yeah, because you're losing Remember. Your dreams are in this weird space in the brain that nobody understands. Yeah, true, and if you are losing balance and your head is in a position you're going to stimulate some sort of vertigo, let's say in your head you're going to feel like you're falling off.

Philip Pape: 37:40

Yeah, yeah, I was just curious about that man. This stuff fascinates me. I'm a very skeptical person, very rational minded, but the more I've talked to experts like you and understand that there there is a rational principle basis for this stuff when you really explore it, and it's fascinating. So and then the other thing is my. You know, sleep masks are big now and weighted blankets and all of this other stuff. Are there any any things like that that could either get in the way or help in all of this that we should like maybe stay away from or I love pressure, love pressure in the eyes.

Dr. Peter Martone: 38:11

You can use a sleep mask. You can use a pillow over your head. You can use a sock. I've used a shirt.

Dr. Peter Martone: 38:18

When you travel, it's important to create a cocoon of pillows all around you, stuff them everywhere. Pressure is what creates safety. That's why babies like to be swaddled. That's why the weighted blankets work with some people. I don't use a weighted blanket, I just put my covers up underneath my chin close. I put some on my eyes. I just create that safety type of feeling. I'm more of a gorilla avatar, but I do need the safety. But I don't like all that pressure. I don't like the weighted blanket personally, but I do use it a lot with some of my clients. So I do love the idea of doing that. One thing interference Melatonin interferes with sleep cycles. Right, it knocks you out. Sleeping medication knocks you out, but you don't get good, deep, restorative sleep. Sleep for the bodybuilder or the athlete is the first third of your sleep cycle. The most important sleep for the anxiety, the ADD, the people that need to quantify their emotional stuff in their brains, is the last third of your sleep.

Philip Pape: 39:31

Right, is it deep and then REM? Yeah.

Dr. Peter Martone: 39:32

So the body healing is done in the first third brain heal. Mind recategorizing is done in the first third brain heal of mine recategorizing it is done in the um in the last third. I need it all because I got add. No, I can't super. You know athletic, so I I really am so disciplined on recharging if I want performance during the day. It starts with me at 9.30 when I go to bed and then when I wake up, my daily rituals that I choose. I know how I'm going to sleep that night. So it's not that you can just work on sleep and close your eyes and be healthy and have great sleep. It's really who do you need to become? Nobody wants to waste eight hours in bed. They want who they're becoming because they're getting better sleep.

Philip Pape: 40:18

Yeah, I agree. And what about wasting six and a half hours in bed? Because the other question is people are wondering well, what does Peter think about just sleep duration, like what are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Peter Martone: 40:27

Sleep duration does vary. I need a lot of sleep, but basically what you do is simply what we talked about at the very beginning. You keep taking your HRV. Take a day when you're at your best and see where your HRV is. That's your target. Then you want to increase that by 15% to 20%, or if you're never feeling your best, you want to increase that by 20% to 30%. So you do the thing. If you're not where you want to be, you need more sleep or you need to improve your quality. But I like the number eight right Eight hours of sleep. I like the number eight right Eight hours of sleep. I think the more athletic I am, I need nine, nine and a half hours of sleep. Sometimes If I'm not doing a lot, then I can get away with less.

Philip Pape: 41:09

Yeah, yeah, I know it's tough for a lot of people, but baby steps right Like one thing at a time. So I guess one of my last questions here then is is the best place to start? Besides, we're going to send them to your links and all that. Don't worry, peter, they're going to go through all that, figure out what you've got to offer them. Is it the pillow, or is there any other tip that you usually like to share with folks that they should come out of this with?

Dr. Peter Martone: 41:28

The best thing to start is start with positioning. Yep, start with positioning first. Don't say you can't is. That just lives in your own conscious brain. You start with positioning. You then create pressure in some way. Just use a sleep mask, use a pillow over your forehead, doesn't matter. And then, the biggest thing that I help people to get to sleep and I glanced over this so I want to go back to it think about the nervous system. You have nervous system at play.

Dr. Peter Martone: 41:57

When you are running from a tiger and you have to be quick with it, you know the blood's in the front portion of your brain. You need to think. When you're running from a tiger and react, you know it's the opposite of thinking. It's either remembering or letting go. So you can't think yourself to sleep because the blood's going to go to the sympathetic state and it's going to block you from sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: 42:25

So if you're falling asleep and you're like I can't do this, I can't fall asleep like this, this is not going to happen or you're living in hate, anger, envy, fear. Those emotions are going to keep you out of sleep. Fear, envy, fear those emotions are going to keep you out of sleep. Now, if you talk about things like love, respect, gratitude and you give in to like an old memory. We have a thing that we call a sleep memory. Walk around a golf course in your head. If you golf a rhythmic, go from every hole, think about every sand trap, you'll be asleep by like the night hole. And then, once you walk that golf course, once walk the same golf course over and over and over again, that rhythmic memory your body will link to sleep and you'll fall asleep real quick.

Philip Pape: 43:10

I like counting sheep. You'll sleep tight, just like it says on your wall oh man, this has been super valuable. Peter, is there anything else you wish I had asked? I mean, I think we covered a lot in one, you know, jam packed topic here. Was anything else you wish I had asked about this topic?

Dr. Peter Martone: 43:25

I like data that identify things that we can control. So the first thing we have to understand is heart rate needs to drop down, respiratory needs to drop down and core temperature needs to drop in order to get good quality deep sleep. You can't do that by exercising too late at night, right before sleep, and you can't do that by eating too late, because if your body's digesting, you're producing heat, your heart rate's staying up and your metabolism will stay stimulated. So you want to go to sleep really clean. I guess you can say so. I have a rule no more than 300 calories within three hours of going to bed, and if it's a big meal, you want to have that at like 5 pm in the afternoon.

Philip Pape: 44:18

You hear that everyone. It's another reason to maybe train earlier in the day. And also, don't eat too late. And for us who are like bulking, which I am right now, that's a little more of a challenge, right, because that just means you need to start early with your food and spread it out and not be too late, because I've noticed those numbers on the HRV and everything just go to hell when you eat too late. With the amount of food I'm trying to eat right now, so, thank you, Peter, for all of that.

Philip Pape: 44:41

Where can listeners find more about TORQ? Where should they start to get the assessment and then find out more about what's available?

Dr. Peter Martone: 44:46

Just go to drsleeprightcom that's D-R-S-L-E-E-P-R-I-G-H-Tcom. Take your free animal sleep avatar test. Then you're in my world. You'll be able to find out anything from me from there, and always on Instagram at drsleeprightcom.

Philip Pape: 45:00

Awesome and I'm going to take advantage of some of this stuff myself. I'm definitely going to do the pillow thing tonight and I'm glad we spoke, because I'm happy to report back after seeing some improvement or checking out your stuff, and I'm glad the listeners got to learn from you today. So thank you so much for taking the time to be on here All right.

Dr. Peter Martone: 45:15

Thank you so much for having me.

Why Your Stress Feels Out of Control (Nyquist Stability Criterion) | Ep 279

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If your stress response feels stuck in overdrive where small triggers cause massive anxiety, this episode explains why using a fascinating engineering concept.

Learn how the Nyquist Stability Criterion from control systems engineering reveals why some people maintain their cool while others get overwhelmed by the same stressors. Discover how to build a more resilient stress response system based on proven engineering principles.

Main Takeaways:

• Your perceived stress matters more than actual stressors

• Stress operates as a feedback system that can become unstable

• Three engineering principles for stabilizing your stress response

• How to measure and adjust your stress management strategy

Timestamps:

2:41 - Overview of stress as a feedback system
5:03 - Understanding stability and the Nyquist Criterion
7:58 - Three key factors in stress response
10:42 - Strategy #1: Implementing negative feedback loops
13:04 - Strategy #2 & #3: Signal delay and stability margins
16:12 - Building resilience and key takeaway

Why Your Stress Feels Out of Control and How to Fix It

If you've ever felt like stress is spiraling out of control, where even small problems trigger massive anxiety, tension, and fatigue, you're not alone. Many people feel constantly overwhelmed, even when their actual stressors haven’t changed.

The good news? Stress is a system, and just like any system, it can be optimized for stability. In this article, we’re breaking down why your stress response sometimes feels unmanageable and how you can stabilize it—using a simple engineering principle called the Nyquist Stability Criterion.

Stress is a Feedback Loop—Not Just an Event

Most people think of stress as something that happens to them, an external force that they just have to deal with. But in reality, stress is a complex feedback system, much like the thermostat in your house or the cruise control in your car.

Your brain perceives stress, compares it to past experiences, and adjusts your physiological and psychological state accordingly. The problem? Perception of stress is often more important than the actual stressor itself.

🔹 Two people can experience the same stressor (e.g., a busy schedule) but have completely different reactions
🔹 Your body doesn’t distinguish between real and perceived threats—a lion chasing you and an overflowing email inbox can trigger the same response
🔹 Chronic stress can rewire your nervous system to overreact to minor triggers, making small stressors feel catastrophic

So, if you’ve ever wondered why you used to handle stress better but now feel like you’re constantly on edge, it’s because your stress feedback system has become unstable.

What Makes a Stress System Unstable?

In engineering, a stable system is one that absorbs disturbances and returns to baseline—just like cruise control adjusting for a hill and then returning to normal.

An unstable system, on the other hand, amplifies small disturbances until they spiral out of control. This is the equivalent of putting a microphone too close to a speaker and getting that high-pitched, ear-piercing feedback loop.

When it comes to stress, your mind and body can become unstable in the same way, reacting to small triggers with exaggerated responses, making stress compound rather than resolve.

Here’s why:

1. Delayed Stress Processing (Signal Delay)

If you ignore stress rather than process it, the response builds up and hits you harder later on—like a dam bursting instead of slowly releasing water.

➡ Example: You suppress anxiety about an upcoming project, but when the deadline arrives, the stress hits like a freight train.

2. Amplifying Small Stressors (Feedback Magnitude)

Some people naturally dampen stress, while others magnify it by ruminating and overanalyzing.

➡ Example: You get a slightly passive-aggressive email from your boss. Instead of letting it go, you spend hours analyzing the wording, assuming you’re about to get fired.

3. Lack of Recovery (System Damping)

A stable system has built-in mechanisms to return to balance after stress, but if you lack proper sleep, exercise, or relaxation techniques, stress stays elevated.

➡ Example: You have a stressful workweek but don’t prioritize sleep or movement, so the stress accumulates instead of dissipating.

How to Build a Stable Stress Response (Like an Engineer Would)

If stress is a system, then we can apply stability principles to make sure it absorbs stress rather than amplifies it.

1. Implement a Negative Feedback Loop (Cancel Out Stress)

Instead of letting stress build up, use counteracting activities to neutralize stress before it spirals.

✅ Strength training – Lifting weights reduces cortisol and improves resilience
✅ Walking – A 30-minute walk significantly lowers stress hormone levels
✅ Deep breathing – Activates the parasympathetic nervous system, shutting off “fight or flight” mode
✅ Short breaks – A 30-second pause between meetings can stop stress accumulation

Think of it like noise-canceling headphones for stress—you’re disrupting the cycle before it gets out of hand.

2. Process Stress in Real-Time (Reduce Signal Delay)

Instead of suppressing stress, deal with it as it happens.

✅ Mindfulness or meditation – Helps process emotions before they get out of control
✅ Journaling – Writing down stressors helps organize thoughts and reduce emotional intensity
✅ Talking about it – A quick conversation can help diffuse stress before it lingers

Ignoring stress delays the response, which only makes it worse later. The sooner you acknowledge and address it, the more stable your system remains.

3. Build a Buffer Zone (Add Stability Margins)

In engineering, systems aren’t run at their limits—there’s always a safety margin. Your stress system needs the same.

✅ Prioritize sleep – Sleep deprivation makes stress feel worse than it is
✅ Eat enough protein and whole foods – Nutrient deficiencies make it harder to regulate stress hormones
✅ Lift weights consistently – Strength training improves stress resilience by regulating cortisol and nervous system function

If your system already has stability, it takes a lot more stress to push it off balance.

Putting It All Together: Train Your Stress Response Like a Muscle

Just like you wouldn’t go from never lifting to deadlifting 400 lbs overnight, your stress system needs progressive adaptation.

1️⃣ Start tracking your perceived stress (1-10 scale) to notice patterns
2️⃣ Implement just ONE stress-regulating habit (e.g., daily walk, deep breathing, lifting weights)
3️⃣ Adjust based on results – If stress levels don’t improve, tweak your approach

This is how you create long-term resilience—by gradually increasing your stress tolerance while making sure your system returns to balance after each challenge.

The Bottom Line: Stability Beats Elimination

Stress isn’t the enemy. The real problem is how your system responds to it.

Instead of trying to eliminate stress altogether, optimize your system so that it handles disturbances efficiently and returns to stability—just like a well-tuned machine.

No matter how chaotic life gets, you have the ability to train your stress response just like you train your muscles. And just like in lifting, consistency is everything.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're the type of person who feels like your stress response has been stuck in overdrive lately, where little things trigger massive anxiety or where one stressful event seems to cascade into an overwhelming spiral of negative thoughts and physical symptoms, this episode will change how you think about and manage stress. Today, we're talking about why stress can feel completely out of control even when, objectively, the stressors in your life haven't changed much at all. We'll look at stress through an engineer's lens to understand why your mind and body sometimes overreact to minor triggers. Whether you're dealing with daily anxiety, chronic stress that's affecting your training and nutrition, or just want to build more resilience, this episode will give you a powerful new framework to regain control. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:02

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're examining stress through an entirely new lens by applying a concept called the Nyquist Stability Criterion, to understand why stress can spiral out of control. And don't worry, I'm gonna explain what that is and you'll see why it makes a lot of sense. Now, I was recently working with a client, michelle. Special shout out to her for inspiring this episode. She is in our physique university and she made I'm going to call it an incredible self-discovery about how focusing on perceived stress versus actual stress helped her finally get a handle on chronic stress that had been plaguing her for years, and that got me thinking about stability in systems and how the same principles explain why our stress response can become unstable. Now what's fascinating is that two different people can experience exactly the same stressor, like a busy work schedule or a demanding training program, but then they react completely differently. One person maintains their cool, the other person gets really overwhelmed. Today, we're going to uncover why this happens and what you can do about it Before we get into it. Of course, if you are struggling with stress, if you want some personalized guidance on managing it while staying on track with your fitness goals, I'd love to help. Just book a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment call with me. It is not a sales pitch. It is a focused, fast session where we identify what's holding you back whether that is stress triggers or something related to your training nutrition and then create a simple three-step action plan to help you feel more in control. So click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click the big button at the top for that rapid nutrition assessment.

Philip Pape: 2:41

All right, let's get into today's topic. What we're covering today is first, we're going to understand how stress works as a feedback loop and why your perception matters more than the actual stressors. A lot of this is in our minds, so if we can control that, or at least understand it, we can go much farther in coping with stress. Second, we're going to look at why some stress responses stay stable while others spiral out of control. And we're going to look at why some stress responses stay stable while others spiral out of control, and we're going to use the Nyquist stability criterion to examine that. And then, third, we're going to use strategies from engineering as an analogy to help you stabilize your stress response. So bear with me as I nerd out a little bit, but it is going to be super practical.

Philip Pape: 3:19

So I want to start by explaining how stress operates in your body. Going to start by explaining how stress operates in your body, right, most people think stress is just something that happens to them, an external force that they cannot control. But stress is really about how your body and your mind process and respond to those challenges. And it happens through a system, through a complex feedback system, and that's why different people respond differently, and even you might have responded differently to the same types of stress at different points in your life. Now, in engineering, we use feedback systems everywhere, right From the cruise control in your car to the thermostat in your house right, your nest thermostat. These systems are measuring the current state, they compare it to the desired state and then they make an adjustment. That's it, and your body's stress response works the same way. It takes in information about potential threats or challenges and then it adjusts your physiological and psychological state accordingly.

Philip Pape: 4:14

What most people miss is it's not the external stressors themselves that determine your stress level. It's how your internal feedback system interprets and responds to them. And this is called perceived stress, and research shows it's actually a better predictor of health outcomes than objective stressors. And it makes kind of intuitive sense, right, like how you feel in terms of stress is probably more important than, objectively, what the stress might be. And another way to think about this think about your thermostat, right? It doesn't care if it's cold outside because your neighbor left their door open or because there's a winter storm. It doesn't care, it just responds to the temperature change. So, similarly, your body doesn't distinguish between a real threat being chased by a lion right and a perceived one, it initiates the same stress response either way.

Philip Pape: 5:03

We've talked about this before and I've had guests on that talk about the sympathetic versus the parasympathetic nervous systems, the fight or flight response. So this brings us to the Nyquist stability criterion. I know it sounds kind of technical, but it's just a simple principle in control systems that helps determine whether the system remains stable or spirals out of control when disturbed. So I want to break this down in a way that will transform how you think about stress specifically. So in engineering, a stable system is one that can handle disturbances and then return to normal.

Philip Pape: 5:38

Think about the car cruise control. I mentioned that earlier. Cruise control you turn it on, it goes at the same speed without you having to have your foot on the gas pedal when you hit a hill. You get to a hill, it starts to crank up right. It adjusts the throttle to maintain speed, cranks you up and then returns to normal on flat ground. That is a form of stability. On the other hand, it's going to overreact to a disturbance. Each response triggers a bigger accelerating response and that creates what engineers call positive feedback. It's not the good kind of positive right. It's like when you put a microphone too close to a speaker and then you get that small initial sound that gets amplified, amplified, amplified, right. Or if you ever have like, if you're on Zoom on a phone and then you're near a computer, on Zoom, zoom, and all the sound starts to feed back through the speaker and amplifies that terrible, like screeching noise we've all heard. That's what that is Okay.

Philip Pape: 6:34

Your stress response can become unstable in the same way. So let's say you have a deadline coming up for work. In a stable system you would recognize okay, this is a challenge, I'm going to mobilize resources to meet it, I'm going to do it and then I'm going to return to baseline afterward. In an unstable system, the anxiety about the deadline is going to increase your heart rate, increase your muscle tension, makes you more aware of your body's stress response. Your anxiety increases further and further and further and it becomes overwhelming. It creates a vicious cycle.

Philip Pape: 7:06

So that is an important analogy for the different types of people, but even you yourself, the different ways you handle different stressors. You know I always joke to my wife that like I can handle a high level of stress because I just kind of let it brush off of me, and some people perceive that as not caring or not having a sense of urgency. But it can be helpful as well when others get stressed by something Like, let's say, we're planning to go to um, my in-laws are planning to get, they got a flight to go to a funeral and they were freaking out about all the travel arrangements. So I said, okay, let me just go book multiple health hotel rooms for our family, I'll take care of it, they don't have to worry about it. Right, and that's my way of coping to help their stress. And it can be helpful vice versa. But then other things aren't going to stress them out at all. That might make me anxious, right? So we all can relate to this.

Philip Pape: 7:58

So the big insight from this Nyquist thing is that stability depends on how the system processes and responds to feedback right and in engineering terms which, again, we're going to apply this to us as humans, with our bodies and minds. We are going to look at three factors signal delay, feedback magnitude and system damping. So I hope it isn't getting too nerdy, but it's kind of cool how we map these to your stress response. So first we have signal delay. So in engineering, delays between the input and response often cause instability. So think about taking a shower. If you have a long delay between turning the handle and getting hot water, you might overcorrect and end up scalded. Or for anybody who watched Groundhog Day again, because we just had Groundhog Day, bill Murray gets in the shower, he cranks it up and it's freezing cold, right, and you overreact. But anyway you might overreact and end up scalded. And then your stress response has similar delays. When you try to suppress or ignore the stress, it can lead to bigger emotional response later. We all have been there, right, where we push it deep down inside and it comes out ferociously later on. So that's signal delay. That's basically, you're just procrastinating or you're not dealing with it.

Philip Pape: 9:15

The second is feedback magnitude. So a stable engineering system reduces the impact of disturbances. An unstable one amplifies them. Your stress response can go either way. Some people naturally dampen stress, they feel it, they process it, they let it go, and again I feel like I'm more in that camp, just naturally, and you may not be. Others amplify it through ruminating and catastrophizing and you turn small stressors into these major crises. Right, everything is a huge deal. Again, this is not a judgment. This is just something to be aware of. Do you respond this way to stressors? So that's feedback magnitude.

Philip Pape: 9:51

The third one is system damping how quickly these oscillations settle down. So, even when it's been disturbed, do they settle down? In engineering, we add filters or dampers to prevent this. Your body has natural damping mechanisms, like deep breathing and hormonal regulation right, some that you do on purpose and some that your body does involuntarily. But they can be overwhelmed if the system becomes too unstable. Right Again, you can only cope with a certain amount of stress beyond which it starts to expand out of control. So how do we apply these principles to stabilize your stress response? So we're going to use three strategies. I know I have a lot of lists in here, one, two, threes, but hopefully you're following. I'm trying to keep it pretty organized. We're going to use three strategies that are based on this control system theory.

Philip Pape: 10:42

All right, the first one is we're going to implement a negative feedback loop. Remember we talked about feed, positive feedback in the past being a bad thing. In this case, like it amplifies, like that screeching sound when you have the microphone near the speaker. In engineering, a negative feedback stabilizes a system by counteracting those disturbances, almost think of it like noise cancellation for stress. This means you can develop habits that automatically reduce stress when it starts building. And guess what? One of the best habits is Regular movement, regular lifting and, in some cases, a brief bit of high intensity activity like sprinting or something like that, but not overdoing it with lots and lots of chronic cardio, for example, because that creates the opposite problem that increases your stress. So lifting regularly, walking regularly, are two huge ways to increase your resilience and create a physiological response that counteracts the stress hormones like cortisol, or helps regulate them. It gives you resilience. There are also other negative feedback loops you can intentionally incorporate, like progressive muscle relaxation. It's a form of mindfulness, a form of meditation, and many, many others breathing meditation and so on. It doesn't have to be one of those techniques and I will say walking alone can be a huge one for a lot of people and it's easy to do. So that is a negative feedback loop, keeping in mind that that's a good thing. In this context, you're counteracting, you're negating the stress that starts to build up.

Philip Pape: 12:16

The second strategy is reducing signal delay. So notice that these are basically counteracting the problems we talked about before, so you remember how delays. If you delay, it causes instability. Right, and in stress management, this means you want to process your stress in real time instead of suppressing it, instead of pushing it deep down into the core of your stomach. Research shows that mindfulness, meditation, really any form of relaxation, even play, can literally rewire your brain's stress response circuits to respond more quickly and appropriately to stressors. It's like upgrading your processing speed when it comes to the stress and being able to cope with it, to deal with it.

Philip Pape: 13:04

And then the third strategy is adding stability margins. Engineers never run systems at the absolute limit. You always have safety margins built in. So for your stress response, this means maintaining what I call psychological redundancy Getting enough sleep, staying hydrated, eating nutritious foods these create a buffer zone. And lifting weights it's a buffer zone. I've talked about this multiple times recently about alcohol and other things. Small stressors, then, won't immediately push you into instability. You've got a lot more buffer zone built in where you can handle these things better.

Philip Pape: 13:45

So if you take all this together, where does this approach really shine? If you measure and adjust, you can put this whole thing on steroids right. Just like we monitor control systems, you need to track your stress response and there is something called the perceived stress scale. It's a validated tool used in research to help you quantify stress levels and monitor improvements. But you don't have to get complicated. Just start by establishing a baseline and rate your stress level on a scale of 1 to 10 or 1 to 5, whatever makes sense to you. We do that with my clients all the time. As part of our biofeedback tracking In Physique University, we have a biofeedback tracker. It includes stress, among other factors, and you're just going to rate it the same time each day for a week. So normally I recommend people track biofeedback weekly, but in this case, if you're trying to dial in something, you want to do it more frequently and then you're going to implement one strategy right, we're doing this systematically One strategy for reducing stress.

Philip Pape: 14:39

I touched a little bit on that today. I didn't want to get into the actual all the possible laundry list of stress details. I actually have a guide for that, called the stress solution guide, with specific things you can do. I think we all know some things that we can do, right? I mentioned walking, lifting weights. I mentioned being resilient. I mentioned breathing meditation and so on. I mentioned walking, lifting weights. I mentioned being resilient. I mentioned breathing, meditation and so on.

Philip Pape: 14:59

Um, I had a guest on who talked about just taking 30 seconds or a minute between things in your day, between meetings, between doing an errand and another errand All of those things can increase your resiliency and your stress response. I like the pillars lifting weights, walking, uh, um, you know, eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep those are going to be the big ones, but you're going to change one thing and then you're going to see how your stress level changes. If you're wearing an Oura ring or some other wearable, it's kind of cool to see those numbers like HRV, resilience scores and whatnot. You could look at all that, look at how your numbers change and then if the approach hasn't really worked, you could adjust the parameters, just like you would tune any system. For me, right now, the thing I'm working on is my sleep posture and let's see when this comes out, when this episode comes out. Okay, this comes out on Wednesday and this Friday the episode with Dr Peter Martoni comes out. He's a sleep expert who talks about positioning, how to have a neutral spine and use back sleeping to improve your HRV and your sleep resilience quality. So that's the thing I'm working on and I'm going to see how the numbers change. Same thing with you. Pick one thing, measure it, track it before and after.

Philip Pape: 16:12

Now, the thing that most people miss about this whole stability thing, this whole stress response thing, it's not about eliminating the disturbances, because we can't control everything outside ourselves. Right, the stoic in me stoicism, ancient philosophy that's still super relevant today says that I can only do it, I can only control what's in my realm of control and I shouldn't really care about the rest. Right, it's changing how your system responds to those stressors. The most stable systems aren't the ones that never get disturbed, they're the ones that handle the disturbances elegantly. The same is true for your stress response. The goal is not to eliminate it, it's build a system that processes it effectively. So, as we wrap up, I want to recap the key points.

Philip Pape: 16:56

Your stress response is a feedback system. It follows the same stability principles as any system. By understanding and applying what we talked about today, you can implement strategies to prevent spiraling out of control and then build lasting resilience. And it all starts from understanding your level of perceived stress and then coming up with solutions to mitigate that. And that's it. It's not avoiding disturbances, it's building the system to respond and return to baseline. And, by the way, your baseline can be much bigger and more robust by building in the big pillars, like the lifting weights and having a healthy, active lifestyle, nutritious foods and so on.

Philip Pape: 17:30

All right, if you're ready to take control of your stress response and you want personalized guidance on some of those big pillars, don't forget I do have this free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment. Not a sales call, it's just you and me chatting about what is holding you back, what are your specific stress triggers or areas of concern with your training, nutrition whatever and create a simple action plan tailored to your needs. I say here you go, one, two, three. Here's a resource or two, totally free, have fun. If you need any other support, you know where to find me. That's all. It is Low pressure. Click the link in the show notes or visit witsandweightscom and click the big button on the top to schedule your call today. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to stress, stability isn't about never experiencing stress, it's about having a system that returns to balance. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Lifting Weights vs. Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for Fat Loss Over 40 | Ep 278

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Can strength training alone help optimize your hormones after 40, or do you need homone replacement therapy (HRT)?

Learn what the research actually says about how lifting weights impacts your endocrine system and body composition.

Whether you're dealing with menopause, andropause, or age-related changes, discover how to make informed decisions about combining lifestyle interventions with medical approaches for optimal results.

Main Takeaways:

• Strength training influences hormones through multiple pathways beyond just building muscle

• Your body becomes more efficient at using hormones through proper training

• The type and intensity of training matters significantly for hormone optimization

• Context is crucial when deciding between training alone or combining with HRT

• Consistency and progression are key for long-term hormonal health

Timestamps: 

00:01 - Can strength training really impact your hormones after 40?
03:47 - Breaking down what happens to hormones with age
08:29 - Three key pathways strength training affects hormones
13:21 - Systems optimization approach for hormone health
17:32 - Three scenarios for combining strength training and HRT
21:04 - Research on maintaining youthful hormone profiles 
22:45 - Closing remarks and community invitation 

Should You Lift Weights or Use HRT for Fat Loss Over 40?

As you move into your 40s and beyond, changes in hormones, metabolism, and body composition make fat loss and muscle maintenance harder than they used to be. The common advice? Get on hormone replacement therapy (HRT) or lift weights—or both. But which approach is best for optimizing body composition, and can strength training alone be enough to regulate hormones?

Let’s break down the science behind lifting weights, hormonal changes, and fat loss to help you decide what works best for you.

How Aging Affects Your Hormones and Body Composition

As we age, hormones like estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, and growth hormone naturally decline, leading to:
✅ More fat storage, especially around the midsection
✅ Muscle loss (sarcopenia), making it harder to stay strong and lean
✅ Decreased insulin sensitivity, making it easier to gain fat
✅ Higher cortisol levels, increasing stress-related fat accumulation

For women, menopause causes a steep decline in estrogen, which leads to a slower metabolism and increased visceral fat storage. For men, testosterone gradually declines by about 1% per year after 30, which can reduce muscle mass and fat-burning capacity.

With these changes, the way you approach fitness and nutrition needs to evolve.

Can Strength Training Improve Hormones and Help with Fat Loss?

The short answer? Yes. Strength training is one of the most effective tools for managing hormones naturally. Research shows that lifting weights influences hormones in three key ways:

1. It Increases Hormone Receptor Sensitivity

Even if your hormone levels decline with age, your body can become more efficient at using them. Strength training enhances receptor sensitivity to hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and insulin, meaning you get more benefits from what’s already in your system.

2. It Triggers an Acute Surge in Anabolic Hormones

Heavy compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, and presses stimulate:
🔺 Growth hormone – Can increase up to 400% during training, supporting muscle growth and fat metabolism.
🔺 Testosterone – Rises significantly even in postmenopausal women, improving lean mass retention.
🔺 Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) – Helps with tissue repair and regeneration.

3. It Improves Insulin Sensitivity

Muscle tissue acts as a storage site for glucose, reducing insulin resistance and making fat loss easier. Strength training increases GLUT4 transporters, helping your body store and use carbohydrates efficiently—without spiking insulin.

Should You Do Strength Training Instead of HRT? Or Both?

The answer depends on your symptoms, hormone levels, and goals. Let’s look at three scenarios:

Scenario 1: Mild Symptoms & Body Composition Changes

If your primary concerns are muscle loss, slower fat loss, and mild energy dips, start with strength training first. Give it three to six months while tracking changes in:
✔ Muscle tone and strength
✔ Fat distribution
✔ Energy and recovery levels

If these improve, you may not need HRT at all or might choose a lower dose if you decide to go that route.

Scenario 2: Severe Menopausal Symptoms or Significant Hormone Deficiencies

If you're experiencing hot flashes, extreme fatigue, major muscle loss, or severe metabolic decline, combining HRT with strength training is likely the best approach.

HRT can restore optimal hormone levels, while lifting ensures those hormones are effectively utilized for muscle retention, fat loss, and metabolic health.

Scenario 3: Already on HRT and Want to Maximize Results

If you’re already using testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), estrogen therapy, or bioidentical HRT, strength training will enhance the benefits and may even allow for a lower dose over time.

Many individuals on HRT find that adding a structured strength program improves their results dramatically by boosting muscle mass, fat loss, and overall energy levels.

Best Strength Training Approach for Hormone Optimization

To get the biggest hormonal response from lifting, follow these science-backed training principles:

✅ Train 3-5 times per week – Focus on progressive overload and consistent resistance training.
✅ Prioritize compound movements – Squats, deadlifts, presses, pull-ups, and rows engage the most muscle fibers.
✅ Use heavy weights with proper intensity – Work in the 4-8 rep range for big lifts and 8-12 reps for accessory exercises.
✅ Rest 2-5 minutes between sets – Allows for maximum strength output and hormone response.
✅ Track your biofeedback – Monitor strength progression, recovery, sleep, and mood to see how lifting impacts your hormones over time.

The Bottom Line: Strength Training Should Be Your Foundation

Whether you choose HRT or not, lifting weights should be part of your strategy. It preserves muscle, improves metabolism, and supports hormone health, helping you stay strong and lean well into your 40s, 50s, and beyond.

If you're on the fence about HRT, start with strength training first, track your progress, and then reassess if additional intervention is needed. Either way, the barbell should be your best friend for longevity, strength, and body composition.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Should you lift weights? Should you get hormone replacement therapy? Should you do both for fat loss over 40, men and women? If you're wondering if lifting weights alone can make a big difference in your hormone levels, we're going to talk about that today. I'm answering a question from our Facebook group about optimizing hormones and body composition after 40, and you'll discover what the research actually says about strength training's impact on your endocrine system.

Philip Pape: 0:26

Whether you're dealing with menopause, andropause or any other age-related changes, the goal is to you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are answering an excellent question from Angela L in our Facebook group, and she asked can strength training impact hormones, specifically in menopausal women? Does strength training provide benefits in production and or regulation of hormones that can help with fat loss? Is strength training a good first step before trying HRT? Now, the reason I love this question is it gets to the heart of something that I deal with constantly in nutrition coaching people wondering whether lifestyle interventions like strength training lifting weights are enough, or do they still need medical approaches like hormone replacement therapy or HRT? Now the research here reveals some, I'll say, fascinating, overlooked connections between resistance training and hormone regulation that we don't talk about a lot and I wanted to dig deeper into that subject today. So, angela, your timing couldn't be better, because I've got lots of clients that navigate this exact challenge and it's been really amazing to see their ability to improve their hormone levels without HRT or in complement with HRT, and we're going to cover that today Before we get into it.

Philip Pape: 2:04

If you find value in some of these discussions based on evidence and you want to connect with others, like Angela who asked the question, who are on their strength training journey, join our free Facebook group. Just search for Wits and Weights in Facebook or click the link in the show notes. It's really an amazing community we're at about a thousand now are really trying to grow. People sharing their experiences, asking great questions. We do a biweekly live. I share lots of free resources. Sometimes I just do ad hoc videos and lives to help you out with specific topics and help each other succeed. So click the link in the show notes to join the Facebook group and I will see that. Come in and I'll approve you and you can join the group.

Philip Pape: 2:43

All right, so let me show you how we're going to break this down today I want you to think of your body as a complex system with multiple interconnected feedback loops. Right, we've talked about this concept before. It's the kind of thing we deal with in engineering. We've got hormone production, receptor sensitivity, tissue response, and all of these work together. If you can understand the connections, we then can optimize the system instead of just focusing on one single component. So I'm going to start by laying out exactly what happens to our hormones as we age, because then that sets up everything else we'll discuss. It's probably why Angela asked the question and then I'm going to show you specific ways that strength training itself influences these hormone systems. And that's, I think, where it gets interesting. Even I always learn something new when I do this research behind the scenes. And then, finally, I'll give you a practical framework, as always, for deciding whether strength training alone might be enough for you or if combining it with HRT makes more sense.

Philip Pape: 3:47

So first let's talk about what happens to our hormones after 40. And for some of you, it might start happening in your 30s. You know, the period of perimenopause for women can start in your 30s. Everybody's a little bit different and of course, men can have a decline in their hormones as well, predominantly testosterone. I'm going to get a little bit technical here, which I think you guys like, but I do like to nerd out. I hope you do too, but I think it's important to understand this.

Philip Pape: 4:13

So, for women entering perimenopause and menopause, what we see is the major change in two key hormones estrogen and progesterone. Now most people know about the drop in estrogen, but what usually gets missed is it's not just the having less estrogen, it's about how that decline affects your metabolic system, your metabolism. The research shows that when estrogen drops, especially a form called estradiol, three major things happen. First, your body starts storing more visceral fat, that is, the dangerous fat around your organs. Your muscle tissue becomes harder to maintain, and so that leads to accelerated sarcopenia or muscle loss. And then your insulin sensitivity also decreases, making it easier to gain fat and then harder to lose fat. And so I see this play out a lot with clients, and we talk about this in the Physique University. We just had one of our live calls and I showed the timeline.

Philip Pape: 5:14

That happens when you get into peripost-menopause, and again, this is going to apply to men and women to an extent, but predominantly women right here, and clients are frustrated. Women are frustrated, right Because you are eating the same way you've always had. But then you start gaining weight, and not just anywhere, you're getting it around your belly right. So we hear the phrases menopause, belly, belly fat. And then your doctor says, even if you have a halfway decent doctors, they might mention HRT. I know a lot of doctors won't even mention it. That's a whole separate discussion.

Philip Pape: 5:44

So HRT hormone, bioidentical, hormone replacement therapy and you either start down that path or you're like well, before I do that, let me try some other approaches, some lifestyle approaches and clients that come to me. Either Either they start on HRT because they've addressed an issue, a deficiency, or they haven't done it yet and they want to see if some other things will normalize their hormones first, to see where the real issues lie, if there are any. So that's kind of where I'm getting to with this episode today, and what I usually see with women in that situation is women are storing more fat. They're responding differently to their usual diet and exercise routine that they've done for years. What worked in the past no longer works now. And it's not that you're broken, it's not that, like all of physics has changed, it's not that you're doing anything wrong, it's that the context has evolved and we have to evolve with it.

Philip Pape: 6:38

And for many of us, for many of you listening and watching, when you were younger, you could kind of get away with more types of training and types of eating and your body would be cool with it. And so then in your brain you're like, okay, this works, but in reality you were just delaying the inevitable. Now, for men, the changes are, I'll say, more gradual, but they're still very impactful. I mean, you know, men are really affected by these, uh, this situation as well, because around age 30, testosterone starts to drop roughly at 1% per year on average, and you know that might not sound like much, but if you compound it over 10, 20 years, you're looking at pretty significant changes. And then, by the age of 50, many men have testosterone levels that are like a quarter, you know 25% lower than their peak. And so what's interesting is for both men and women, they see growth hormone drop and IGF-1 drop with age, and so those are like your repair and regeneration hormones, if you will.

Philip Pape: 7:36

You know, when they decline, everything from your ability to maintain muscle, to metabolize fat, becomes more challenging. It's like stacking on top of each other. Then there's another hormone that tends to be a boogeyman but it does increase with age, and that is cortisol. Cortisol, the stress hormone, and that can affect your body composition. If it's chronically high and higher, cortisol then leads to increased belly fat storage and it could actually break down muscle tissue. And then the, of course, physical and psychological stress of aging just more obligations, and you're older and there's lots of things going on in your life. They drive cortisol up just when we would hope that it's more regulated. So I get it right, I'm 44. I'm just experiencing a little bit of this now. Fortunately, I started lifting about five years ago and I've noticed how beneficial that has been to a lot of different things, including testosterone. Uh, but we're going to get into that now.

Philip Pape: 8:29

How does strength training influence the hormone systems? Because Angela's question was um and by the way, if I sound a little hyper, it's because I've just had my coffee but strength training, um, the? The question is can you just lift weights and will that, you know, fix your hormones, so to speak? And this is where I think, like the technical engineering background kind of helps the systems thinking so, when you lift weights, you are, yes, building muscle, but you're also creating a cascade of hormonal responses. It's like you're tuning multiple control systems in your body simultaneously together. Right, they're not independent variables, they're all working together, and the research here is pretty robust and also pretty amazing. So I reviewed some of the studies. There is a 2022 meta-analysis, which is a study of studies, and they looked at 50 studies and they found that strength training influences hormone regulation through three main pathways, and I'm going to break them down. The first one is that it improves hormone receptor sensitivity.

Philip Pape: 9:31

So, even if your hormone levels are lower, your body becomes more efficient at using what you have. So it's kind of like upgrading your hormone software. Right, even as the hardware changes. The hardware's evolving, but now you're upgrading the software to kind of keep up. It's older hardware but newer software, and I've seen this with male clients. A lot of my male clients are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, so you start to see this around the 50s, especially dealing with lower testosterone, and some men are like jumping at the chance to go on TRT and others don't want to go there yet because they want to see like, is there something else I can do? And so we focus on a structured strength program keeping the stress levels down. Right, you're not necessarily going to the gym seven days a week and what you sometimes find when you lift is that total T doesn't necessarily go up. It could, but free T, the amount available for your body to use, can improve. We see this a lot with those situations where you're more efficient with your testosterone, which is it's emboldening. It's empowering to think that, because then you know it's not, you're not just trying to crank up your T level, you're trying to better use it right, and then your energy improves, you start having better symptoms, maybe building muscle more easily and have improvements in your body composition, even though your hormone level, your total, hasn't changed that much. So the sensitivity is important to understand.

Philip Pape: 10:55

The second. Well, okay, I think I might cover this later, but you think of how insulin sensitivity increases when you lift weights. So apply that to any hormone in a good way. The second pathway is the acute hormone response, right. So, like the in the moment, short-term hormone response. When you perform heavy compound movements, right, like the squat, like the deadlift, your body produces a surge of anabolic hormones. Growth hormone can increase by up to 400% during an intense training session. Testosterone rises significantly Even in menopausal women, who have a much lower baseline testosterone but, as I learned from Karen Martell, that is still the highest hormone in your body. Like you have the most of that of any hormone, even though it's much lower than men.

Philip Pape: 11:44

The acute response from lifting helps maintain your muscle mass and your metabolic health. So it's super important. But wait, there's more right, because I mentioned cortisol. Strength training helps regulate cortisol, the stress hormone, because and the irony is that when you lift weights it causes an acute cortisol spike during the workout, but over time it actually improves your body's stress response system, kind of like how it raises your blood pressure during the workout but it actually gives you lower overall blood pressure and metabolic health. Studies show that regular strength training can lower baseline cortisol levels and improve how your body handles stress hormones, and I think I touched on this a little bit in another episode about how just being a lifter helps your body handle lots of things better stress, alcohol, whatever Very important concept to remember.

Philip Pape: 12:33

And then the third pathway is about insulin sensitivity. So I promised I would get to that. Your skeletal muscle is the largest glucose sink in your body. It's this nice huge pool to store glucose. The more muscle you have, the better your body then handles blood sugar. So strength training increases something called GLUT4, glut4 transporters, and that helps shuttle glucose into your muscle cells without needing as much insulin. And so that is massive for fat loss as well, because better insulin sensitivity means better nutrient partitioning and then better metabolic health. It all works together. It's really, really cool. I hope you find this stuff as fascinating as I do. So that's kind of how strength training impacts hormones through three pathways that are very important.

Philip Pape: 13:21

Now what do we do with this information? So we're going to use what I call systems optimization approach, right? Systems? We talk about systems the same way we would tune an engineering system, right? That's where I come from. So you need, I'll say, four key components to tune your system. You need the input right, these are going to be your training parameters for your lifting. You need the control that's going to be progressive overload and managing recovery. You're going to need feedback. So these are your like, writing down what you're doing in the gym, your performance metrics, as well as your biofeedback and then output. So how does your body composition change and how do your hormone markers change? And, by the way, in the feedback, that can also include the blood work and the hormone panels as well. You may not need to go to that level, honestly, it could be just symptom driven by biofeedback, but just keep that in mind.

Philip Pape: 14:14

So for the training parameters, research shows that the sweet spot for hormones is going to be what we talk about all the time, something like three to five sessions per week, prioritizing compound movements, big heavy lifts that use multiple joints. But it doesn't always have to be in the heavy rep range, which I would say is like four to six and four to eight. It could also you know, you could definitely have some accessory work in there in the eight to 12 rep range. More importantly is the mechanical tension and depends on what your goals are, but some, some combination of those. You then have to have progressive overload consistently applied. What does that mean? That means you are always pushing yourself to your current limit so that you can adapt and create a new limit that's stronger over time. So if you were able to lift you know, 135 pounds for your squat this session, you might lift 140 next time. Or if you're able to get eight reps at a certain weight, you would get 10 reps at a certain weight, some combination of that, which we're not going to get into super great detail today, but I have other episodes about it. I also have some guides on that.

Philip Pape: 15:14

Okay, and then you know, interestingly, when we look at what types of movements create a large hormonal response, it's going to be the ones that use more muscle mass, more of your system, more of your body, the bigger, the ones that recruit more muscle fibers. So squat, deadlifts, um presses, rows, pull-ups, lat pull-downs, really any compound lift you can think of. And then, of course, you can branch out into other movements to compliment that. So it's yet another reason to lift, lift heavy and use compound lifts and use all the things we talk about, as opposed to the YouTube workouts that change every time, that have like 20 reps. That are circuits. You know the circuit training yeah, it's got to be heavy where you're taking long rest periods, you're in fairly lower rep ranges and you're progressing over time.

Philip Pape: 16:02

My female clients who stick to those types of programs are the ones that have massive success and they find that this cascade of hormones leads to lots of other benefits, including fat loss. It makes it so much easier. The rest periods I mentioned that they matter more than most people realize. Um, the rest periods I mentioned that they matter more than most people realize. Um, if you're trying to maximize strength and muscle, you need longer rest periods, but it also doesn't hurt to have shorter rest periods for endurance, for work capacity, for even for hormone output. There is some correlation. So I like to mix both right. I like to have big lifts where you're resting three to five minutes and then a couple accessories after that where you might rest anywhere from rest anywhere from 30 seconds to two or three minutes. So that's just training in general.

Philip Pape: 16:47

The question here now getting back to Angela's original question is should you do strength training instead of HRT or should you use both? It depends. This is where context becomes really important, because this is I'm not a hormone. I'll call it expert. I'm not a hormone coach. This is not a hormone podcast, but I listen to a ton of information about, and research a ton of information about hormones, and I'm always working with clients on trying to, I'll say, not interpret their hormone panels, because that's technically outside my scope of practice, but take the interpretation and then apply it to okay, what are we doing for our training and our nutrition that can be improved? That might then translate back to an improvement in hormones. And the research shows.

Philip Pape: 17:32

I'll say three scenarios that you might fall under. The first one is if your symptoms are moderate and primarily related to body composition so increased fat storage, increased muscle loss I think starting with strength training is the best thing you can do. It's very accessible, right. You can literally start this week. You don't have to hunt around for a good medical practitioner and I mean it's a whole can of worms when you talk hormone replacement therapy. Good medical practitioner, and I mean it's a whole can of worms when you talk hormone replacement therapy. And I would give it three to six months with a before and after, with everything you care about. So if that means hormones, get a hormone panel, maybe work with a hormone therapist, but then see what happens with just the strength training as its own variable. It's good to know that for yourself because that'll give you the confidence that a lot of this is in your control. Okay, and that doesn't preclude you then using HRT anyway. After that. We're only talking a few months.

Philip Pape: 18:25

And I say this because I've had a lot of clients who have these perimenopausal symptoms, right, and some of them have, like you know, the hot flashes and all the symptoms, I mean the laundry list of 10 to 15 symptoms that start to occur, and they come to me for lifestyle changes, and so sometimes what they're doing is a lot of cardio, a lot of um, high rep work. Maybe it's not consistent, maybe they're not progressing, they have a lot of stress, maybe they're not sleeping as enough enough, maybe they're not walking as much. So there's usually a lot of low hanging fruit, and oftentimes you're so overwhelmed with life or you've you've tried so many things or you've paid so many coaches you just feel lost or like you've hit a wall. And, frankly, I get men in this situation too, where they keep jumping around diets. It's like I'm gonna do carnivore, that's gonna fix it. Nope, I'm gonna switch up my lifting to this thing where I don't have to irritate my shoulder at all, and then I'm gonna make progress. Nope, something has to change. You know, something has to change. And so when we take the stress out, we focus on sleep, we focus on recovery, and then we have a reasonable level of intensity and volume for your training right, which for a lot of women means getting stronger, not the circuit stuff. Body composition starts to improve and then the symptoms start to improve, and then, when you get blood work, you notice your hormones are improving as well Not always, but often and then it becomes manageable and then you can say, okay, if I still need HRT, I could at least target it. So all of that was the first scenario.

Philip Pape: 19:47

The second scenario is if you've got severe menopausal symptoms so debilitating hot flashes, significant bone density loss you may need to jump right into doing both Strength training with HRT, right, and frankly, a good medical practitioner who's an expert on hormones should be able to tell you that hey, you're far off the range that you should be on this thing and so we need intervention and even lifting, and lifestyle isn't going to fix that. But a lot of people are kind of on the hairy edge and it's because the lifestyle isn't great and we fix the lifestyle and then everything comes back normal. And then guess what you don't have to do HRT, at least for a while, or you don't have to do as much, or you don't have to do as many different hormones. And then deal with potential you know potential symptoms from that, which, again, I'm not um, I'm not dissing HRT at all. I think it's awesome. A third I think it's awesome.

Philip Pape: 20:41

Third scenario if you're already on HRT, if you're already on it, which a lot of my clients come to me having gone through a hormone therapist or you know I mentioned Kara Martell before and others like her working with her and then they'll come to me. The proper strength training, then, can enhance the benefits of the HRT, and sometimes you end up finding that you need to reduce it. People who strength train regularly respond better to hormone therapy as well, so sometimes it makes sense to do both together. All right, hopefully I haven't gotten off on too many tangents.

Philip Pape: 21:04

But to sum all this up, in general, the research shows that people who maintain consistent strength training through their 40s and 50s often maintain hormone profiles that are closer to their younger years. And that makes sense because physique-wise, body composition-wise, strength-wise, I've seen people turn back the clock 10, 20 years because they improved their lifestyle. Right? There was a recent study that found that resistance-strained individuals over 50 had growth hormone and testosterone levels which averaged 30 to 40% higher than their sedentary peers. Right? So we can't stop the hormonal changes, but we can significantly influence how our bodies adapt to them and are efficient with them by incorporating lifting. There's no reason not to do it, I hope, is the message you've taken from this. So, as we wrap up, remember your body is very adaptive. No matter what age you are, it's always going to adapt to what you give it, and so, if you choose to pursue HRT or not, you should always have strength training in the foundation of your lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 22:04

It's the one intervention that improves every marker of health and fitness. We care about Every single one. There's no downside whatsoever. The key is doing it right, being consistent, using progression right. You don't have to be a power lifter. You don't have to be a bodybuilder. You're not going to get bulky. You don't have to gain weight. You can gain a tiny bit of weight, but it'll be mostly muscle. That's a whole separate topic. You just have to challenge your muscles and push the limits right. The weights have to feel heavy. You've got to be training hard. You've got to be moving and growing. Start where you are, progress systemically and then let those compounding effects of training accumulate and improve your home run profile over time.

Philip Pape: 22:45

All right, if today's episode resonated with you, if you want to connect with others like Angela optimizing their health through strength training, join our Facebook group. Search for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes. Share your wins. With training, you can ask questions, become part of the community. Have fun. That's what we do. We have fun. We're positive. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your body's systems get stronger and more resilient with every training session, no matter your age. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Managing Autoimmune Disorders and Chronic Illness Naturally (Heather Gray) | Ep 277

Are you struggling with autoimmune symptoms that doctors keep dismissing? Are you tired of trying endless medications without seeing real improvement?

I bring on Heather Gray to share her remarkable journey, from battling multiple chronic conditions for 30 years to becoming a leading voice in natural healing.

As a Functional Diagnostic Nutrition practitioner and head coach at a prominent cancer treatment center, Heather breaks down the strategies that finally helped her overcome chronic illness – and now helps others do the same.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:06 - Why focusing solely on treatment fails
08:01 - Understanding the "perfect host" concept
17:15 - The real deal about comprehensive health assessments
20:15 - Moving beyond supplements to true healing
24:22 - The game-changing power of stress management
32:01 - Being your own health advocate
37:04 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: renegadehealthboss.com

• Podcast: Renegade Health Boss

• Facebook: facebook.com/RHBPOD 

• Instagram: @renegade_health_boss

• Youtube: @RenegadeHealthBoss 

• Get her free Foundations of Health ebook: rhbcourses.com

How to Manage Autoimmune and Chronic Illness Naturally

If you're dealing with autoimmune conditions like Hashimoto’s, celiac disease, or rheumatoid arthritis, or struggling with chronic illnesses such as Lyme disease or fibromyalgia, you may feel like you’re stuck in a cycle of symptoms, medications, and frustration. While conventional medicine plays a crucial role in managing these conditions, research shows that nutrition, stress management, and lifestyle interventions can have a profound impact on symptom control and overall well-being.

Why Conventional Treatments Alone May Not Be Enough

Traditional medicine focuses on diagnosing and treating disease, often relying on medications like steroids, biologics, and NSAIDs to suppress symptoms. While these can provide relief, they don’t always address underlying triggers like inflammation, gut health, or immune dysfunction.

Some common issues with conventional treatment include:

• Standard lab tests may miss key markers – Many autoimmune conditions go undiagnosed for years because standard testing doesn’t always detect early inflammation or immune dysfunction.

• Medications can’t replace lifestyle changes – While medications help manage symptoms, they don’t fix poor diet, chronic stress, nutrient deficiencies, or toxin exposure, which all contribute to disease progression.

• The role of gut health is often overlooked – Research shows that up to 70% of the immune system is located in the gut, and gut imbalances can trigger or worsen autoimmune conditions.

If your current approach isn’t getting you results, it's worth exploring additional evidence-based strategies to support your body.

The Root Causes of Chronic Illness

Chronic illness doesn’t happen overnight. It’s usually the result of a combination of genetic predisposition and environmental triggers. Here are some key factors that contribute to immune dysfunction and chronic symptoms:

1. Chronic Stress and the Nervous System

• High stress levels lead to increased cortisol and inflammatory cytokines, which can worsen autoimmune symptoms.

• A dysregulated stress response (HPA axis dysfunction) is linked to fatigue, inflammation, and immune suppression.

2. Gut Health and Autoimmune Disease

• A leaky gut (intestinal permeability) allows unwanted substances to enter the bloodstream, triggering immune overactivation.

• Microbiome imbalances are common in autoimmune diseases and can contribute to inflammation.

3. Environmental Toxins and Inflammatory Load

• Heavy metals, mold, pesticides, and endocrine disruptors can contribute to immune dysregulation.

• Air pollution and industrial chemicals are linked to increased risk of chronic inflammatory diseases.

4. Nutrient Deficiencies and Immune Regulation

• Vitamin D deficiency is associated with an increased risk of autoimmune disease.

• Omega-3 fatty acids help regulate inflammation and have been shown to improve symptoms in autoimmune conditions.

How to Manage Autoimmune and Chronic Illness with Lifestyle Changes

There’s no one-size-fits-all approach, but research supports these key strategies for improving immune function and reducing symptoms naturally.

1. Eat an Anti-Inflammatory Diet

• Prioritize whole, nutrient-dense foods like lean proteins, healthy fats, and fiber-rich vegetables.

• Limit inflammatory foods such as processed sugar, refined grains, and industrial seed oils.

• Consider eliminating gluten, dairy, and soy if you have known intolerances or autoimmune conditions.

2. Support Gut Health

• Eat fermented foods and prebiotic fiber to support beneficial gut bacteria.

• Identify and remove food sensitivities that contribute to inflammation.

• Consider gut-healing strategies like bone broth, collagen, and resistant starch.

3. Manage Stress and Regulate the Nervous System

• Practice mindfulness, breathwork, or meditation to reduce cortisol and inflammation.

• Prioritize quality sleep to support immune repair and recovery.

• Engage in activities that activate the parasympathetic nervous system, such as nature walks or deep breathing exercises.

4. Strength Training and Movement

• Resistance training helps reduce inflammation, improve metabolic health, and support immune function.

• Low-impact movement like walking, yoga, or mobility work helps regulate the nervous system and improve circulation.

5. Reduce Toxin Exposure

• Filter your drinking water to remove contaminants like heavy metals and endocrine disruptors.

• Choose organic produce when possible to reduce pesticide exposure.

• Avoid synthetic fragrances and plastics that contain hormone-disrupting chemicals.

Where to Start If You’re Feeling Overwhelmed

If this feels like a lot, start small and build habits over time. Consider:
✔ Eating whole, unprocessed foods
✔ Tracking symptoms and patterns
✔ Prioritizing sleep and recovery
✔ Incorporating daily movement and stress management

Managing chronic illness isn’t about perfection—it’s about progress. The more you understand how lifestyle impacts your immune system, the more control you have over your health.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're battling chronic illnesses like Lyme disease or autoimmune conditions like celiac, hashimoto's or endometriosis, and traditional treatments aren't giving you the relief you need, this episode is for you. Today, I'm discussing natural approaches to managing these complex conditions with someone who's lived it firsthand. You'll discover why conventional testing often misses these telltale biomarkers, how stress and mindset affect your symptoms more than you think, and practical strategies that can help you take control of your health. Whether you're newly diagnosed or have been fighting symptoms for years, today's conversation will give you a new perspective on managing chronic illness naturally illness naturally.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited on Heather Gray to discuss natural approaches to managing chronic illness and autoimmune conditions. After spending three decades navigating multiple diagnoses, including Lyme disease, celiac disease, hashimoto's and endometriosis, heather now helps others as a functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner. Today, you're going to learn how to advocate for proper testing, understand the mind-body connection in chronic illness and, as always, practical strategies for managing symptoms naturally through your lifestyle. Heather, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Heather Gray: 1:32

Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape: 1:33

So I brought you on here because we want to talk about something a lot of people struggle with and probably a lot of people silently struggle with, and that is a number of known issues, from Hashimoto's or symptoms that go unexplained or undiagnosed. And then combine that with what I'll say is inconsistent expertise in the medical field. Let's be honest, a bit of gaslighting too, right? A bit. A bit yes, and I know you're the comedian, so you can take that where you want and then like a pharmaceutical heavy approach, right, that's the other piece. So sometimes for people maybe it seems hopeless or like they have no clue where to go. And so somebody listening or watching right now who wants to be inspired, they need a little bit of help. They're like how do I even get started? What's the thing that they're missing that could make the biggest difference, like for their next step in managing or reversing these conditions.

Heather Gray: 2:26

There's a lot of big questions in there. Yes, when do I start with which one do I feel back? You know, no, gaslit, I, that is actually. I talk about that in my standup. I talk about being gaslit basically my whole life. And they say that women are like twice. As you know, it takes twice as long for them to get a diagnosis, a proper diagnosis, over a male, because it's still that type of gaslighting and women are just hysterical and it's just our hormones and our hormones get blamed for everything. It's insane.

Heather Gray: 3:00

I am a big fan of not focusing on treatment, right Like I'm going to die on that hill. Stop focusing on treatment Because once you dial in lifestyle, mindset, diet, exercise, proper exercise, health period, end of story. Between the artificial lights, the EMFs, the toxins in our environment, in our food, in our water, the fast pace, the constant fight or flight, we're stuck in. It's a hot mess and I mean, as you read off the laundry list of diagnoses that I have, I'm a walking talking model, proof of all these toxins, all these issues and what can happen once you start cleaning things up.

Philip Pape: 3:52

Yeah, and we were joking about broken water heaters before we started recording and how we you and I business owners we're stressed we were trying to juggle super busy schedules and there's sensory overload. I do like your what you just said stop focusing on treatment because lifestyle could be the solution, or at least it'll get you a lot of the way there. Right Like sometimes when we talk about hormone replacement and someone says, should I do that or should I do lifestyle? I'm like well, do the lifestyle. You may need the hormone replace, I don't know, but always do the lifestyle, like go train and go be active and eat the right way.

Heather Gray: 4:25

Do not pass. Go, do not collect $200.

Heather Gray: 4:27

Do it anyway, this is where you start because even if you get on hormone replacement therapy, you might need less right Like, because you're starting to get things moving. The way. Our bodies are just so brilliantly made that once we get out of the way, give it what it needs. It's amazing. It's amazing what it can do. It's, I mean, absolutely no short of a miracle.

Heather Gray: 4:49

Like I said, the stuff that I have dealt with in my life, the things that I have overcome you know two suicide attempts. You know horrific pain being a hundred pounds overweight. You know not digesting anything, psychosis from mold, like you name it I have been through it. And the fact that I now shoot. I run two podcasts. I have my practice. I just got hired in a very prominent cancer doctor's practice to be her head coach. I do standup comedy. I travel.

Heather Gray: 5:18

Like my life is not for the faint of heart and it wouldn't be this way if I didn't dial in these lifestyle tweaks and continue to keep some sort of a maintenance going. Like sleep is my religion. You know I make sure I detox every week, like there's certain non-negotiables that I have, because if I don't, I'm a little on the different side. I'm the canary in the coal mine. I, you know I've gotten some. Really I got.

Heather Gray: 5:42

I got dealt some pretty shitty hands with genetics and not detoxing properly. I don't make vitamin D, store it, transport it properly, you know. So it was fun to see these kind of weaknesses within my genes. But, as you know or hopefully you know, I think you know. You know what's in our genes is not the be all end. All you know there's got something called epigenetics, which is our lifestyle and toxins and that sort of thing on what, how the genes get expressed.

Heather Gray: 6:08

So there's so many people that are like, oh my God, I have the BRCA gene. You know I'm down to get cancer and they start to cut off their breasts and I'm like, no, no, no, no. You know, that's why I work for this cancer doctor. I work for us because she is totally in alignment with let's clean up all this stuff first before we ever stop about chemo and mastectomies and all that stuff. And it is incredible. I'm just so impressed with what she's doing as a doctor because she was surgical, you know, medically trained, but then went back to school, learned the functional way and what we're seeing the results with her clients are absolutely amazing.

Philip Pape: 6:45

Yeah. So you mentioned a few things that people are thinking of like okay, you had all these different symptoms. You also have an environment that's not made for humans you mentioned you know we have genetics. Whether we blame our genetics or not, they're there but they're not. You know they're the noise in the signal oftentimes. But at the same time, you did have some things that were unique for you, like the vitamin D deficiency. So a woman listening or somebody who's facing what they can't diagnose, it's chronic fatigue. I know a friend who has chronic fatigue. He's dealt with for years and it's fibromyalgia or one of those areas where it's kind of mysterious. What were the early signs you had and when did you decide that you needed to look into this, not just address the lifestyle? But I imagine there's other things you have to do to pinpoint what it is for you right, what the issue is for you.

Heather Gray: 7:31

Well, absolutely, and I love saying, no matter how common a symptom may be, it is never normal, right? It's always your body's check engine light coming on saying, hey, dummy, there's something going on in here. And all too often we've been brainwashed, you know, to reach for over the counter medications, right, which is just puts a bandaid over that check engine light and then our body just keeps screaming louder and louder and louder until we have an autoimmune disease or we have cancer or we have, you know, something bigger and scarier. But it started with me, like I always start off. I was four years old. I was basically born full of shit, like you know how many people can relate to being constipated as a little kid. And that started my let's throw band-aids at symptoms, you know model with thick, nasty oils, laxatives, but nobody was asking why this four year old couldn't poop hindsight's 2020. That was the. Did you have a lot of prune juice back then? I don't remember. Okay, yeah, I don't remember. I doubt it. I doubt it.

Heather Gray: 8:26

I was eating a standard American diet. Yeah, I was being raised by alcoholic addicts very young alcoholic addicts and my uncle had just committed suicide. So there was a lot of early childhood trauma that, I think, churned on my celiac disease. I said I was eating the standard American or the sad diet and it's kind of what started me to be the perfect storm. And so that's the one thing that I love teaching people is, even with Lyme disease, they're like I got bit by a chick and I got sick. No, actually you've been becoming the perfect host for probably one year, five years, 15 years, before you ever got to the place where Lyme disease could take over. Same thing with cancer. I just got cancer. It's in my history. No, I hate to tell you. It's probably been a lifetime full of stress and toxins and bad diet. And now you're quote unquote again the perfect host, right? So I was living in some moldy environments when I was a kid like I said, a lot of trauma and when I was 13 and got bit by a tick, I was the perfect host. So I got diagnosed two years. No, I didn't get diagnosed two years. I started showing symptoms two years later with my first suicide attempt. That was the first of two or three in the psych ward. So much fun. I just need to write a book about my experience in the psych ward, because this was before they actually separated and had different wings for young adults. So I was 15 in with adults and some of the stories I could tell you it was just ugh but anywho. So yeah, hindsight's 20-20. You know, 27 years later I'm 34 and I finally get diagnosed.

Heather Gray: 10:04

You know, I had been to probably 30 or 40 different practitioners and if that's the one thing I can tell people is like, listen to your intuition If you know something's up. But you keep going to practitioner to practitioner and they say your labs look normal and they don't find anything wrong with you. Next, keep looking. And typically I found that functional practitioners have a tendency to look a little bit deeper, more root cause. Their lab ranges are different. So, like for vitamin D, you know people are like what's functional medicine compared to regular medicine? Vitamin D, the Western model is looking for disease period, that's it.

Philip Pape: 10:40

Based on the population, too Right, and it's a sick population right.

Heather Gray: 10:43

Yes, it's going to skew that bell curve. So, like for me, my vitamin D was in the 30s. Well, according to Western med, 30 to 80 is optimal and it's not In functional med. We want it to be 60 to 80. You know, that means that you're actually performing properly, right and that you're functioning, not just close to flatlining and a disease.

Heather Gray: 11:07

So it was after I, on a podcast, I heard the founder of FDN, reed Davis. He was with Sean Croxton who wrote the book Underground Wellness. He used to have a pretty popular podcast and he was talking about how you got to. You know, make sure the hormones are balanced and that your gut is healed. And you got to detox. I was a silly hairstylist at the time, I didn't have a background in medicine. Intuitively something hit and I was like that's it, that's how I'm going to get better. And so very, very sick, with a young kid and my own business going through this course. You know, just a Hail Mary, hoping that we were going to find answers. And that was the start of my journey. That was back in 2013.

Philip Pape: 11:49

Yeah, obviously a lot of tough, tough situations to get through that that you dealt with. That created what you said, that environment for being the perfect host, which, just so I understand that phrase, this is a combination of the environment we're in as well as our behaviors and genetics. Like, what do you mean by that the perfect host? Can you explain it a little further?

Heather Gray: 12:08

All of the above, anything that lowers your immune system and allows critters to overcome your good guys, the stuff that we do. So birth control, antibiotics, other prescription medications lead to a leaky gut. So if you've got a leaky gut, then we've got a compromised immune system. The stress causes a leaky gut. We have a compromised immune system. Now. You're not getting enough sleep. I was living in a moldy home, so all these things stacked up against my immune system, making me vulnerable, making me more susceptible to these things. So that's what I mean about the perfect host.

Philip Pape: 12:44

Good, yeah, what do people understand? Because, yeah, and gut health I know you briefly alluded to that. We're learning so much more now about the microbiome and its impact on everything. It's even like the second brain of your body, right? You said, listen to your intuition, and that kind of hits on the gaslighting thing a bit from the other end, because we all know multiple people in our lives and ourselves included. I mean my own wife and friends and family and grandparents and parents.

Philip Pape: 13:09

Everybody's been affected by this where they go to the doctor, they get some sort of half-assed treatment and then it doesn't work. They go again. They either get another treatment or they're told well, you just got to deal with it, or it'll go away, or you know what I mean, or or or. There's so many inadequate answers and the idea that if you don't have the answer, you've got to keep going. You've got to be persistent, be in control of your health. I mean I have a personal, just a quick little, almost silly story of I was taking a inhaler, I was breathing it in for an esophageal issue and after about a year of it, my voice started to go hoarse and as a podcaster, this is not great. My voice started to go hoarse, starts out like a smoker yeah right, I Googled it which in the past you'd say that's dangerous. Nowadays I'm like I'm okay if you want to start with Google, because you might get some surprising things that come up.

Heather Gray: 13:57

Start with ChatGTP over Google.

Philip Pape: 13:59

There you go Nowadays, yeah, and it said steroid-induced hoarseness. I'm like, well, that sounds exactly what it is. So, guess what? I took it to the doctor and he's like, no, that's not a thing, oh really. So then I went to a different doctor no, no, that's not a thing. And so I experimented, I Every time I did, guess what? The hoarseness went away, and then it came back. And finally the doctor admitted he learned something from this through his arrogance. And so that's my personal. I get angry at it and I'm not going to say silly, but it was minor for me, but it's a lot more major for a lot of people, depending on what issue they're dealing with, right?

Heather Gray: 14:37

Oh my God, my kid was diagnosed with celiac disease two months after his second birthday. His belly had been so distended for so long, the muscles actually separated like a pregnant person. He you could count his ribs skinny little arms with this great big distended belly. And I remember seeing the hospital's dietician for the first time and I educated her on the celiac diet, like they were. I felt like I should bill her. It was so insane. What year was this? What like this was back in 2012, 2011, because everyone knows about celiac disease.

Philip Pape: 15:15

Now you would think, no, this is, this was right yeah, edge, and I was just like oh my god.

Heather Gray: 15:20

But even then they don't know like it's. One of the biggest misnomers with celiac is that there's all the gluten-free quote-unquote grains. A lot of them cross, react like wheat. So you know corn, rice and they've even got their own form of gluten. You know it's crazy. And oats, you know. So I tell people with celiac it's still because they'll feel better for so I tell people with celiac it's still cause they'll feel better for a while and then they stop and then they usually go backwards again and they don't know why. I've seen it with myself, I saw it with my kid, I've seen it with my patients. So I'm like, if you really want to get better from celiac you know, kind of heal and be more robust, you need to go grain free, because grains, those things are just you know all the gluten-free and a lot of times they're swapping out just regular processed crap for gluten-free processed crap.

Philip Pape: 16:04

Oh sure, sure, like the classic vegan diet I do, I kind of joke about it. It's like all processed foods.

Philip Pape: 16:11

Oh, so if we take that celiac example cause there are so many, if someone suspects they have it, or like people are thinking okay, I have symptoms, I have no idea what it is, when do I start? And then there's also I have symptoms. I think it could be this what do I do? Maybe those are two different scenarios, but let's start with the celiac one. People are confused. Do they get food and allergy testing? Do they get blood work? Do they have to go to a special doctor, special FDN, Like you know what I mean. It's overwhelming.

Heather Gray: 16:37

It's a good point, you know, and a lot of times the testing that a regular doctor will do is not going to unearth what you're looking for, unfortunately. So, like with Lyme disease, they will still use a Western blot, and Western blot is good if you can catch it, like within the first six months. Outside of that, it's crap because it's looking for an immune response and a lot of times Lyme has shut down that immune response and there's a couple like bands missing because of some controversial crap that goes on with our FDA, and so you're not going to get a real good answer from a traditional doctor's Western blot, unfortunately. So you know, I like starting people off with these intake forms. I have two intake forms, all together about 500 questions Like it'll take you a good hour to fill out, but it is really awesome at helping tease out. You know, is it gut issues? Is it Lyme? Is it autoimmune? Is it heavy metals?

Heather Gray: 17:35

You know, looking at the lifestyle back when I first, unfortunately, when they train FDNs and a lot of functional doctors, they just want to like $5,000 worth of labs right off the bat.

Heather Gray: 17:46

I found out very quickly that not everybody could afford $5,000 of the labs and then another $5,000 worth of, you know, quote, unquote treatment or, you know, supplement support, that type of thing. So I really got great at case management and looking at the history and looking at you know, all these different puzzle pieces. That kind of helped me put it together. And then if I felt like further testing needed to be done, I'd be like I maybe want you to do this stool sample or maybe I want you to do this genetic test because I want to see if you've got the genes for celiac or you know, it just kind of depends. But really starting with that case history and extreme intake form I think is a really great place to start, Because if you, you know, if you got somebody who's just wanting to throw either a thousand dollars with the supplements at you right off the bat or $6,000 with a lab test right off the bat, you know might want to run yes.

Philip Pape: 18:39

Yes, no, I've seen it in some of the. There's a lot of new precision medicine companies that have, just you know, popped up out of nowhere. You got to be careful, because their end game may be affiliate sales from supplements. Right, you got to watch out. So I like what you said, though, because when I think of like in my nutrition coaching practice, how it's very personalized, you really have to understand the whole person and how everything interacts and the whole system of like their history. What is in that kind of assessment in generally? Are there any symptoms that you asked for there? Is it their physical, like movement history as well as their medical history? I'm just curious what kind of lifestyle things are in there? Everything it's 500 questions.

Heather Gray: 19:15

All the above. I want to know if you got mercury in your mouth or if you had a root canal, because if so, you might be susceptible to cavitations, which are one of the biggest barriers to health. I need to know if you've had a mold exposure. Have you been tested for sleep apnea? What's your trauma like? Because nine times out of 10, even with cancer these cancer diagnoses if you look back one to a year and a half before their cancer diagnosis something happened. It's insane. Every single time something happened Lyme disease, like I said, talked with my, you know, but a lot of people haven't put the pieces together. So one of the first things I started asking for is okay, so you get diagnosed in 2021. That's pretty common these days. Things are starting to happen in 2021, 2022. What happened before that? Covid stressed everybody else out, whether they got vaccinated or not vaccinated. That's a whole, nother freaking set of can of worms, but digging into the mental, emotional and the stress part of their life as well, because that's the other thing that a lot of doctors aren't talking about, and sometimes those are the biggest wins. I had a guy that worked with me for over a year and I thought he knew my methodology by that time, but he didn't.

Heather Gray: 20:33

I'm still really stressed out and anxious. Can you give me another supplement? I said did you do your grounding exercise today? Get your feet out on the ground for 20 minutes today no. Have you gotten sun on your eyes today? No. Have you taken a 20 minute walk today? No. Have you done your meditation today? No. Have you done your journaling today? No. Have you done your breath work today? No, I'm not giving you any more supplements, like until you learn how to move your nervous system out of fight or flight and into rest or digest all these pills. Even though they might be healthier than their alternatives, it's still just a supplement. That's what supplements are for. They're supplements. They're not supposed to be the be all, end all.

Philip Pape: 21:15

Well, a hundred percent People want to shortcut and make excuses. I love that, so would you. Then, is your approach to the level where you start with lifestyle on day one, or do you still want to do some sort of parallel assessment and start with lifestyle? What does that process look like?

Heather Gray: 21:32

It depends on the person. Everyone is so different and I found that the Lyme patients and a lot of the cancer patients are a lot more sophisticated than other patients out there because they've had to be their own health advocate for so long, especially Lyme. Frigging chronic Lyme just got accepted as a diagnosis two years ago Wow. Okay, the frigging disease that haunted my Lyme.

Philip Pape: 21:54

I live in Connecticut, by the way, and I've heard about Lyme for years, so yeah, it's funny.

Heather Gray: 22:00

The thing that has haunted me for decades just got recognized by the CDC is a real diagnosis chronic Lyme, like. Wrap your brain around that one. So we've had to become our own health advocate, we had to become our own health detective, and so it just depends on where a person's at. But I really I try to do parallel, like I'll start maybe working with them on food stuff At the same time I'm working on them with mindset stuff. You know, it's so funny.

Heather Gray: 22:24

So when I was, you know, getting into the functional practitioner, I was really great at doing the physical stuff right Diet, no problem, in bed by 10. Okay, coffee enema, sure, no problem. And then I would get better and I'd relapse. And then I would get better again and then I'd relapse. And the book the Body Keeps Score came across my desk and if you haven't read it it's a really tough read, especially if you have any kind of trauma, sexual trauma, and I'm on the couch like ugly crying and my ex-husband's like what the fuck are you reading? And I'm like this little girl and her dad and he's like no, no, no, I don't want to hear it. But it was the first time that it was really explained to me how these traumas get stuck in your nervous system and keep you in fight or flight. Right, and it can be big T traumas, little T traumas, but either way they get stuck in your system and we're not meant to be running from a tiger 24 seven, and that's part of the reason why I kept relapsing.

Heather Gray: 23:19

And so once I started moving the needle on my nervous system somatic experiencing work, breath work, tapping, cold plunges, plant medicine completely changed my life total different ballgame. So then I finally I mean I haven't had a relapse of Lyme in five years. I haven't had an autoimmune flare, I've had nothing. I just I have whatever I get right. When I got the flu, it's the flu. When I got a cold, I got the cold, but I don't get any of these other like quote unquote flares, which breaks my heart because so many people think that that's also just kind of normal autoimmune flare. Oh, I'm having a lung flare and I'm like you don't have to have that Right.

Philip Pape: 24:10

You hear that like, especially like with GI issues a lot. I hear that like the diverticulitis, ibs and all that, like the flare ups, and you're saying, because you know people are skeptical, obviously, of a lot of this stuff listening and we're not talking about that you're curing these things but you're helping manage or put them into remission or avoid, like you said, flare ups with the lifestyle changes and it comes down to stress and the sympathetic versus parasympathetic state that we're in. So I do love that, because we talk about stress a lot as being just one of those massive pillars and it ties into your sleep and your sleep quality. And we talk a lot about strength training. I'm curious about your thoughts on just on lifting weights and strength training and resistance training in the context of all of this.

Heather Gray: 24:42

It's the bestest thing in the whole wide world. Like you have to continue to lift weights, and especially anybody over 40. Like if you're wanting to keep your structure, your balance, like any kind of a good lifestyle as we age, we have got to keep our bones and our muscles strong. I you know. Cardio over cardio, I think, is absolutely destroying people.

Philip Pape: 25:03

Yeah, over cardio, yep think is absolutely destroying people.

Heather Gray: 25:06

Yeah, over cardio. Yep, I'm not a fan and I found out in my genetics I have thin veins, thin walls in my veins, which means that if I do cardio for very long, much longer than like 30 minutes, it actually causes inflammation. It causes more stress in my body than it's worse. So I have a diminishing return of investment if I overwork out with cardio. But weights, I love weights. I love pushing something heavy. I just got back into it again. I don't know why I got out. I say that every single time. I'm like oh, I feel great, why did I ever stop?

Philip Pape: 25:34

Yeah, no, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that with regards to the nervous system and stress too, because people it's underrated, it's like an underrated form of and because people it's underrated.

Philip Pape: 25:45

It's like an underrated form of and you also mentioned menopause, and you know we're learning more and more how, because of the hormone changes, right, your muscle mass loss accelerates at that age. If you're not doing anything to hold on to it and because you tend to eat the same amount of food, you know your body fat goes up and then your metabolism goes down and it all just spirals. Okay, so I know we're going on little tangents here.

Heather Gray: 26:06

No, I love tangents. It's great, it's great.

Tony: 26:09

Yeah, I guess.

Philip Pape: 26:10

I know if I'm thinking of what the listener is asking. They're probably wondering there's all these protocols and all these treatments, and when you talk about lifestyle and you hear something like cold plunges again I know what people are thinking. Are there 30 things I have to do every day just to be healthy? And I know that's. You know, do I have to do grounding and cold punches, this and that? And sometimes I skeptically poopoo on those things when I'm like are you even lifting weights and walking and eating right, like I think there's a hierarchy. What are your thoughts on that?

Heather Gray: 26:38

Oh, absolutely. I just got done doing an interview talking about how I love biohacking, because all the tools you know right now I've got I've got a. This thing generates frequencies through a red light. This is a tracking ring. This is an EMF blanket. This is like I've got like 10 biohacking tools around me at any given time. But that's because I told you I was kind of dealt a shitty hand when it came to my genetics and I have to work a little harder, but it's never, never, never. In place of lifestyle, lifestyle stuff always comes first For me. When I was in, when people are in the thick of healing yes, sometimes it can be. I say all the time sometimes my self-care feels like a part-time job, but it's better being full-time sick and it's all how you frame it. It saves time, money and years down the line, yep absolutely.

Tony: 27:32

It's not I have to, it's I get to right, it's a lack of self-care for your future self. Yeah absolutely.

Heather Gray: 27:39

It's a huge act of love. So, yeah, it just it's doing that. But now, you know, now I sauna every day, I do ground every day, I do meditate every day, so there's certain things and I try to have it stack when I can. You know, I only do coffee enemas once a week now. They used to be more because, like I said, I was born full of shit. That constipation never really changed much. So that's one of those things that I do to keep myself running in that, and this is a very toxic world, you know. So, yeah, there was a documentary out there, I guess, where this guy was like a billionaire doing all these biohacks and like he literally had no time to live because he was doing so many that's extreme it's like about living a long life.

Philip Pape: 28:25

That guy that's trying to extend his life, oh yeah, but he's not really living you know, that's the problem.

Heather Gray: 28:30

You know, and I think he even said that.

Philip Pape: 28:31

He also doesn't look like he lifts weights, but that's my own pet peeve on some of these guys.

Heather Gray: 28:37

Oh, I know, Right, absolutely crucial. You know I'll tell them you got to stop your cardio, but I want you walking, yoga, stretching and weightlifting like that, absolutely, as we're healing. Yeah so many benefits so with the comedy.

Philip Pape: 28:52

I think that's really cool because it's hard, like I do, public speaking and speech contests. But I consider myself highly unfunny, and so in the past I've competed in humorous speech contests, deliberately make myself try to write jokes right, which I think is great. You got to get out of your comfort zone. Oh, absolutely so. If people are listening like, oh, that's interesting, that could be something I would enjoy, or I'm into humor, or I was the class clown or whatever, I'm thinking like, what do you recommend for folks to get into it themselves? I know it's a real side tangent.

Heather Gray: 29:22

I know it's a real side tangent. I took a class Like improv, yeah, and it was stand-up.

Philip Pape: 29:25

Oh, stand-up like okay.

Heather Gray: 29:27

It was funny. There's another doctor, his name's Dr Sam Shea and he's on the spectrum and he does stand-up. He has a one-man show called NeuroSpicy. Okay, and I met with him in person one day, because I do a lot of networking with fellow practitioners, and within five minutes he knew I wanted to speak more and be on keynotes. And he was like you know, have you ever thought about doing standup? I was like why on earth would I do that to myself? He's like cause it's a really great skill to have If you're going to be a speaker. It looks really good on your resume. And I was like, okay, he goes. Do you have any trauma in your life? I said how long do you have for lunch? And he goes I think you'd be really good at it. You should take this class with me. And actually that was a week ago last year. So I've been doing standup for a year. I've actually made money. This year. I've been on over like 50 shows, like in clubs and bars and stuff.

Philip Pape: 30:18

Yeah, yeah, where can we find? Like, are you on YouTube?

Heather Gray: 30:21

for that I'm on YouTube, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:23

and then there's a comedy page on my website when I gave health boss, so all right, yeah, I just personally want to check that out selfishly, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna go watch that later. I love stand-up comedy. There's so much of it now too on, like all the streaming services. There's like too much right my name is tony.

Tony: 30:38

I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to phil in his wits andights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 31:20

What's something that you want listeners to learn about you that can help them in ways that were like, if they don't hear this advice, that 20 years are going to go by that they regret not having heard it. Do you know what I mean? No pressure.

Heather Gray: 31:34

Absolutely that not to give up. You know that, like I said, no matter how common a symptom may be, it is never normal and everything is figureoutable for the most part. You know it makes me so sad with these people who get diagnosed with Hashimoto's or other autoimmune and their doctor tells them they have to be on a biological or some other steroid or cortisone or something for the rest of their life. That is absolute BS, you know. And if you're willing to put in the work, because it's not easy, it's not easy going against the grain of society. Sometimes it can feel a little lonely, a little isolating, and I'm finding that it is getting easier.

Heather Gray: 32:11

Like people are starting to wake up, like red dice Woo, you know the FDA finally decided that ref, they're going to ban red dye five. It's going to be another three years. So do yourself a favor. And fricking banded in your own house, cause that stuff's been linked to autoimmune issues, mental health issues, adhd. But slowly but slowly it's starting to come around. People are starting to wake up.

Heather Gray: 32:32

And see, you know, there was a huge group of practitioners who were out protesting in front of Kellogg's and I wish I could have been with them. I was at another conference at that time. But Kellogg's and a lot of companies have got two different ingredients labels, one in Europe and one in the United States, because a lot of the food that we make here is banned in other countries. Right, like, wrap your brain around that one, you know. So, like I said, just really digging deeper, being an advocate for yourself and knowing that there can be another way if you're willing to look. You know, that's kind of so, like I said, just really digging deeper, being an advocate for yourself and knowing that there can be another way if you're willing to look. You know, that's kind of it in a nutshell.

Philip Pape: 33:10

Yeah, no, that and that ties to your earlier comment about persistence or whatever we were saying. You know about continuing to investigate, even whatever the doctors are saying, and it's not solving the issue for you. Okay, so one other thing came to mind when you mentioned that, because you talked about when you were talking about celiac. It was avoiding certain foods, not just grains but other potential gluten-containing foods, some autoimmune conditions that I understand. The first line of defense recommended from a natural standpoint is some sort of elimination diet or potentially cutting out certain foods forever, and oftentimes it's a very unpalatable list of things like 80% of what you would normally enjoy, even in a quote unquote healthy diet. I'm just curious of your thoughts of that where, like you're trying to make trade-offs for the rest of your life and you don't want to suffer either, and they're like here's this biologic you can inject yourself with once a week and you'll be good. You know what I mean. How do people address that kind of decision point?

Heather Gray: 34:07

Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Again, a lot of that's mindset and a lot of it can be done slowly over time. I am a rip the bandaid off type of gal. Not everybody can do what I do. You know Dr Tom O'Brien, he's a huge hero for me and has been for the long time and I had him on my show and he was like you know, Heather, you can do it slower.

Heather Gray: 34:28

You know, like the first month you have them cut out wheat, and then the next month you have them cut out corn, and then the next month and then in a year's time, right, and then it doesn't feel so heavy. Up front I was like, oh yeah, I suppose you could do that. But, like I said, I'm kind of a rip the bandaid off. But I was also really, really sick and I really needed answers, like yesterday. So you can do it that way. A lot of it is mindset, A lot of it's just a new learning curve. I eat amazing and that's why I made like a seven video cooking series, because I got so sick of people going God, what can you eat? And I'm like God, what can you eat? And I'm like tonight I'm having short ribs with braised carrots and sweet potatoes. You know like I am, a bad-ass cook.

Philip Pape: 35:12

You had me at short ribs.

Heather Gray: 35:14

We eat so good. It's ridiculous. And you know, and there's a lot of variety in our diet. Like I just eat real food, you know meat, vegetables, fruit, like there you go. And and I'm not a fan of cutting out a lot of the starchy vegetables because I I know that they can help actually feed the microbiome in a certain way. You know, if you cook, cool it. You know, eat it cooked and cool, that helps with the starch resistance. If you eat it last, it can help with the blood sugar issues.

Heather Gray: 35:45

And never, never never, never eat it naked, you know. Always some sort of a healthy fat, you know because it creates more resistant starch.

Philip Pape: 35:51

When you do that right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heather Gray: 35:53

Yeah, so you know there's a couple of different hacks that I do, but for the most part, you know, I don't. You know, and everybody's different too. I've started doing this genetic test a nutrition genome on people, cause I really want to find out, cause for the longest time everyone was touting keto, keto, keto. I got on keto. It jacked me up in so much weight, I was in so much pain and come to find out that my body does not process that much fat, even healthy fat, like it was like. And then I also had food sensitivities towards almonds and coconut at the time, which is hugely used in a lot of keto foods. So you know I do better on a little bit more of a paleo type diet. You know, even kind of a little on the Mediterranean side. So you know I like finding out what works for a person instead of just this throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks or putting somebody on a one sizesize-fits-all, because we're just so different.

Philip Pape: 36:45

All right, is there anything you wish I had asked today? Again, it was a very diverse conversation but, I think, a good one. I think we covered a lot of helpful points for folks who are struggling with some of these and want to know what they could possibly do or what they should do. Anything you wish I had asked.

Heather Gray: 36:59

I know, I think we covered quite a bit.

Philip Pape: 37:01

I know I think we covered quite a bit. Okay, all right, cool, all right. Where can listeners learn more about you? I will definitely look up the comedy side, but from a health side, where do you want them to find you?

Heather Gray: 37:10

I am the Renegade Health Boss across all platforms. And then I have a free Foundations of Health little mini ebook that you can find on rhbcoursescom. That's Renegade Health Boss, rhbcoursescom and that's Renegade Health Boss. You know rhbcoursescom and get that free download and you can, you know, start your journey today.

Philip Pape: 37:30

All right, cool. Yeah, we'll throw those in the show notes. I believe we're going to see each other again soon on your podcast and, yeah, thanks so much for coming on. This is awesome.

Heather Gray: 37:39

Absolutely Thanks for having me.

Daily Scale Weight Tracking Is Useless... and Necessary (Signal-to-Noise) | Ep 276

Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS - download on Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

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Should you weigh yourself daily?

Learn about an engineering concept called Signal-to-Noise ratio to explain why daily weight tracking is both meaningless AND essential.

You'll discover how your body's water balance, glycogen, sodium, and other factors create "noise" that masks the true "signal" of fat loss or gain.

Learn how to use the power of trend weight to get clarity on your progress while maintaining a healthy relationship with the scale. Plus, discover how this same principle applies to all aspects of your fitness journey.

Main Takeaways:

• Daily weight fluctuations are normal and can be 2-5+ pounds due to water, glycogen, digestive contents

• Research shows daily weighing improves outcomes but only when viewing trends vs individual weigh-ins

• The 20-day exponential moving average filters out "noise" to reveal true body mass changes

• This principle applies beyond weight - use trends for nutrition, training, recovery tracking

Episode Resources:

• YouTube video about the research on daily weigh-ins

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS - download on Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

Timestamps:

[03:27] Does daily weighing increase anxiety?
[04:56] Understanding how water weight and digestion affect the scale
[07:43] How to filter signal from noise
[11:21] How to detach emotionally from daily numbers
[14:27] How to implement tracking systems
[15:51] The mindset shift in data-driven tracking

Why Daily Weigh-Ins Are Both Pointless and Essential

Stepping on the scale can feel like an emotional roller coaster. One day, you’re thrilled by the number, and the next, you’re questioning every decision you’ve made. But what if I told you that daily weight fluctuations are essentially meaningless—but tracking your weight daily is still one of the most important things you can do for fat loss, muscle gain, or weight maintenance?

This paradox boils down to a powerful concept borrowed from engineering: the signal-to-noise ratio. By understanding this principle, you’ll not only remove the stress of daily weigh-ins but also unlock a smarter, data-driven way to measure progress.

Why Scale Weight Fluctuates Daily

Your weight isn’t static. In fact, it can fluctuate by 2-5 pounds or more in a single day, even if you haven’t gained or lost an ounce of fat. These fluctuations are caused by factors that have nothing to do with body fat.

1. Carbs and Water Retention

Carbohydrates stored in your muscles pull water with them—about 3-4 grams of water per gram of glycogen. A carb-heavy meal (like pasta or bread) can spike your weight temporarily.

2. Sodium Intake

Salty foods can lead to water retention as your body balances its electrolytes. Ever noticed how pizza or Chinese food makes the scale jump?

3. Digestive Contents

The food and liquid in your digestive system have weight. Depending on your eating schedule and when you visit the bathroom, this can easily add or subtract a couple of pounds.

4. Hydration Levels

Sweating, drinking water, alcohol consumption, or even the weather can affect your hydration and, consequently, your weight.

5. Exercise and Recovery

Resistance training, especially intense sessions, can cause muscle inflammation and water retention as part of the recovery process.

6. Hormonal Changes

Cortisol, reproductive hormones, and thyroid fluctuations also play a role. Women, in particular, experience significant weight changes throughout their menstrual cycle.

Signal vs. Noise

In engineering, the signal is the meaningful data, while the noise is everything that interferes with it. With your scale weight, the signal is the long-term trend—whether you’re gaining, losing, or maintaining weight. The noise is the daily fluctuations caused by all the factors we just discussed.

Think of it this way: tracking your weight every day is like watching waves crash on a beach to determine if the tide is rising or falling. It’s nearly impossible to tell from one wave, but if you zoom out and observe over time, the trend becomes clear.

This is why daily weigh-ins are essential. They provide the raw data needed to uncover the trend. Without enough data points, it’s much harder to determine whether you’re making progress.

The Science Behind Daily Weighing

Research backs this up. Studies, including one reviewed by Dr. Bill Campbell, have found that people who weigh themselves daily are more successful at losing fat and maintaining it long-term than those who weigh less frequently.

Interestingly, daily weigh-ins don’t lead to increased anxiety or obsession, as many fear. In fact, frequent weighing often helps people develop a more objective, data-driven relationship with the scale.

How to Track Weight Effectively

To filter out the noise and focus on the signal, you need to:

1. Weigh Yourself Daily

• Do it first thing in the morning, after using the bathroom, and before eating or drinking.

• Use the same scale and wear minimal or consistent clothing.

1. Focus on the Trend

• Use a tool like a 7-day moving average or, even better, a 20-day exponential moving average to smooth out daily fluctuations.

• Apps like Macrofactor calculate your trend weight automatically, saving you the mental math.

1. Detach Emotionally

• Treat each daily weigh-in as just another data point. The magic happens when you zoom out and observe the trend over weeks or months.

Why Consistency Matters

Consistency in tracking leads to better data, which leads to better decisions. Skipping weigh-ins or tracking sporadically makes it harder to spot trends and adjust your nutrition or training.

For example, if your goal is fat loss, daily weighing combined with calorie and macro tracking can reveal whether you’re truly in a deficit. Similarly, for muscle gain, it can show whether your weight is trending up as expected.

Applying the Signal-to-Noise Concept Beyond Weight

This principle isn’t limited to the scale. You can use it for other aspects of fitness:

• Calorie Tracking: Weekly averages matter more than hitting exact numbers every day.

• Strength Training: Individual workouts are less important than weekly volume and progression over time.

• Recovery: A single bad night of sleep won’t ruin you; it’s the long-term pattern that counts.

My Final Thoughts

Daily weigh-ins might feel pointless when you see the numbers bouncing all over the place. But those fluctuations are just noise. When you focus on the trend, you gain clarity about your progress and can make smarter decisions about your nutrition and training.

By shifting your mindset to see tracking as a data-driven process rather than an emotional one, you’ll unlock a whole new level of control over your fitness journey.

Remember, the signal is in the noise—you just have to know how to find it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You step on the scale every morning, hoping to see progress from all your hard work. Some days you're elated, others devastated. But what if neither reaction is even necessary? Today we're using an engineering framework that will transform how you look at progress tracking forever. You'll discover why obsessing over daily numbers is rather pointless. Yet tracking them is essential, whether you're trying to lose fat, gain muscle or just maintain a healthy weight. Understanding this one principle will give you clarity and confidence about tracking that you've never had before.

Philip Pape: 0:49

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring how the engineering concept of signal-to-noise ratio can change your approach to tracking and tracking progress and measuring progress. Recent research confirms that daily weigh-ins lead to better adherence and outcomes for fat loss than even weighing five times a week or less. Yet we also know that individual daily weights are meaningless due to natural fluctuations in your scale weight. Today, you're going to learn how to resolve this apparent contradiction and apply it not just to weight tracking, but every aspect of your fitness journey. Now, before we get into it, if you're ready to start tracking your weight and your nutrition properly.

Philip Pape: 1:37

One of my favorite tools is called Macrofactor. It is what I use. My clients use. It's the only app on the market that not only logs your food, it calculates your dynamic metabolism so that it can give you targets for calories and macros each week, unlike other apps that simply allow you to log the data. So if you download Macrofactor from the app store, please use my code, witsandweights. All spelled out, all one word, if you want to try that out for free. Macrofactor has the most advanced trend weight and expenditure algorithms of any app. It's super fast and it does all the complex math that we're going to discuss today. It does it automatically. So go get Macrofactor link in the show notes. Use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS to support me, and here we go.

Philip Pape: 2:21

Let's start by addressing something that might seem like a contradiction. I mentioned in the intro that there is research. There's a study that was reviewed in the Dr Bill Campbell's research review recently. I actually have a short YouTube video about it if you check out my channel at Wits and Weights and it shows that people who weigh themselves every day it actually compared seven days to five days and it showed that the seven days themselves every day. It actually compared seven days to five days and it showed that the seven days was more successful at losing fat and maintaining it long-term, let alone weighing even less than that. And yet at the same time and here's where we have to have two thoughts in our head we also know that daily weight fluctuations have nothing to do with actual fat loss or gain. So it's kind of fascinating, right. It's like we want to weigh every day for some reason, but we know that the data every day doesn't really matter that much, and there was a review in the Journal of Obesity that found better results, not just during the fat loss, but people who continue after the fact were successful at maintaining their results.

Philip Pape: 3:27

What's really interesting is that daily weighing does not increase anxiety or obsession, like many people fear or like many people claim. In fact, studies often have shown the opposite. People who weigh daily report feeling more in control, less fixated on their weight over time. Daily report feeling more in control, less fixated on their weight over time. They develop a more objective, data-driven relationship with the scale, and the wild thing is that your body weight can easily fluctuate by, on average, two to five pounds or more in a single day, even with zero change in body fat. And so I want to explain why that is, so that you have the context for why, then, the tracking is so important in the context of this signal-to-noise idea.

Philip Pape: 4:11

So first, here are the reasons weight fluctuates. One of the big ones is carbs and glycogen. Every gram of carbs stored in your muscles pulls in about three to four grams of water. So if you load up on pasta one night where you normally don't, that could be an extra 100 grams of carbs means a pound of water weight the next day. Right, and that's totally normal. It has nothing to do with fat gain. And then there's salt. There's sodium intake. Higher sodium foods cause water retention as your body tries to maintain proper electrolyte balance, and that's why a salty meal can spike the scale temporarily right, think Chinese food or even pizza. Your body is just doing its job. It's very sophisticated, it's very smart to maintain homeostasis.

Philip Pape: 4:56

Then we have, like, what's in your gut, digestive contents gut, what am I trying to say? Gut content, right, are a pretty big factor for some people, because the food and liquid in your digestive system it has mass, and, depending on when and what you last ate, depending on when you go to the bathroom. This can vary by several pounds, right, and it's why weighing yourself at different times of day is not a great strategy for consistency, because even just literally after having a glass of water you're going to, you're going to weigh more. Um, then we have our hydration status, which is always changing. It's not like you're a fixed creature, right. You sweat during exercise, you drink more or less water on different times, you might have some alcohol. The humidity level in the air can affect your body, body's water balance. All of this can cause multi-pound fluctuations.

Philip Pape: 5:45

Then we have training, right. Intense training exercise, especially resistance training, especially a leg day, can cause some inflammation and temporary water retention. Your muscles are holding more water. It's a good sign that you are adapting and you're getting stronger than happens, but it does sometimes cause a pop in weight. Then we have hormonal changes, right, especially relevant for women, but even men experience fluctuations that affect your ability to retain water. There's cortisol from stress, reproductive hormones, thyroid function. All of it impacts how much water your body holds onto.

Philip Pape: 6:19

And now people wonder why the heck the scale bounces around. Well, there you go. When you understand all these factors, you realize that expecting a linear change on the scale is actually completely unrealistic and not to be expected whatsoever. You actually want your scale weight to look like a huge oscillating up and down line or curve over time. It's never going to be that tight, it's rarely going to be that tight. Let's put it that way, right? It's like trying to measure the tide by looking at waves. I mean, that's a decent analogy. If you think of the ocean, it's just pointless.

Philip Pape: 6:54

So this is where the concept from engineering that you probably have heard of before, it's called the signal to noise ratio, where the signal is that meaningful data that we want to measure and then the noise is everything else that interferes with that measurement. Right, and sometimes the noise is a lot more than you want it to be. So if I give you a real world example, when you're listening to you, remember radios, remember radio in your car Okay, I'm speaking to my demographic, which is probably a lot of you listening and you're on a road trip and you get closer to the station and it's nice and clear, and then you start to drive away from the station. What happens? Right, the music, that's what you want to hear, that's the signal. It starts getting mixed with static and the static is the noise and then, as you get further away, the of that signal to noise gets worse and worse, until you can't hear the music at all.

Philip Pape: 7:43

And your body works the same way. Or your body weight, your scale weight, works the same way. The trend in your weight, whether you're gaining, maintaining or losing, that's the signal that we want to know. But all the daily fluctuations we talked about, that's the noise. And in engineering we solve this using a filter. This is a tool, this is a piece of math that you can turn into electronics, and it separates the signal from the noise. So for body weight, we can do that using a moving average. We can just weigh yourself every day and then use, like a seven day moving average or what I like, which Macrofactor uses, a 20 day exponential moving average. And you know, don't let that scare you, it's actually a pretty simple thing. You can even do it yourself in a spreadsheet. But think of it like this Imagine if, instead of looking at the waves hitting the beach and trying to determine the tide, you look at a time-lapse video over several hours.

Philip Pape: 8:34

You ever seen those where now you see the tide clearly moving in and clearly moving out, even though individual waves are always crashing, moving in and clearly moving out, even though individual waves are always crashing right. The exponential moving average does that. It gives more weight to the recent measurements and smooths out the daily fluctuations, and so, as a result, you get this trend line that actually tells you what's happening with your body composition. And I want to get into this, just nerd out on this a bit, because I've looked into this, and I want to get into this, just nerd out on this a bit, because I've looked into this and I even talked to Greg Knuckles a while ago on the podcast.

Philip Pape: 9:05

Why 20 days? Right, it's not random. It's actually long enough to filter out most noise, but short enough to still be responsive to real changes. Because you don't want to wait six months to determine your trend weight. That would be ridiculous. But we also know we can't do it in as short as seven days because it's still too noisy, right. And so you want to balance in between, and that's where the 20 days is really nice. And so when I'm working with clients, it's like the first couple of weeks, we're just collecting data. Let's not even worry about what it says. And then there's the question of the linear versus exponential. If you care about that. I mentioned an exponential average. A linear average would treat the last 20 days the same, but an exponential average gives more weight to recent days, even though it still considers older data. That's a very smart approach, because what's happened to your body recently is more signal than what happened 20 days ago, so that makes it more responsive to the actual change in direction, but still filtering out the noise. And so what's really powerful about this is it gives you better data with less perfect adherence. Okay, so if you In other words no, let me restate it If you only weigh yourself occasionally, you're going to get less reliable information than someone who weighs daily.

Philip Pape: 10:22

That's what I'm trying to say. It's kind of this counterintuitive thing, but the math proves it. Just look at how the formula works. It proves it mathematically that if you only sporadically weigh yourself, it's not going to work so well and it's not going to give you a great idea of what's going on. But if you weigh yourself daily, it will. And it's not going to give you a great idea of what's going on, but if you weigh yourself daily it will. So again, with my clients, I kind of get on them a little bit when they miss some days of weighing because I don't want to sound like a tracking Nazi here, but it's actually going to help you. It's going to help you to know am I actually losing fat or gaining fat, so that I can change my calories appropriately.

Philip Pape: 10:55

So how do we apply this in practice appropriately? So how do we apply this in practice? Well, pretty simple. We need to collect enough data points. That means you need to weigh yourself every day, and the best, most reliable way to do that is first thing in the morning, after you use the bathroom, before you eat or drink, wearing the similar clothing or preferably none, or, you know, underwear or something like that and using the same scale. But this is crucial. This is the crucial part. That's all the logistical stuff.

Philip Pape: 11:21

Emotionally, you need to detach emotionally from those individual numbers. Now, when I say you need to detach, like, can you just flip a switch and do that? Of course not. I get that. But over time, as you do it daily, you will detach right, unless something else is going on. You will detach and I see this over and over again as long as you relate it to the why and the trend and are kind of treating the data like it's supposed to be, like it's meant to be like.

Philip Pape: 11:47

These are just data points. They mean nothing. The magic happens when you look at the trend, right. And so, going back to macro factor, it handles this for you, right. It calculates your trend weight and then it uses that along with your food intake to say okay, based on what you're eating and based on what you're weighing, over a long period of two or three weeks, we know that you're actually gaining weight or you're losing weight and therefore we're going to adjust your intake accordingly. Or maybe you're gaining more or less than we thought, so we're going to go up or down with your calories right Now.

Philip Pape: 12:18

This principle can apply to anything, for example, your calories themselves, your calories and macro targets. I don't want you to hit them perfectly. That's impossible. It's the weekly averages that ends up driving your results. So, again, we don't want to obsess over hitting the exact number every day. That's super counterproductive. Some days will be higher, some days will lower.

Philip Pape: 12:38

It is the trend that matters Now. If you're always over, the trend will be high. If you're always under, the trend will be low. But you've got to give yourself some up and down room to navigate, similar in the gym, with your strength. Your performance in a single workout matters far less than your overall volume for the week, your sets for the week, your recovery for the week, the intensity going up session to session. You're going to have bad days, you're going to have great days. Neither of them defines you or your strength level in the moment. It's the trend over time. Look at your, the weights, the working weights and the volumes over days, weeks and months. I can go on. Recovery right.

Philip Pape: 13:15

Individual sleep scores, individual things that your aura ring tells you like oh my God, it's terrible. Your stress levels through the roof. Your HRV is terrible. Don't stress. I mean, one bad night's not going to ruin you. One perfect night's not going to fix everything. You know, one night of catching up on sleep isn't going to matter. It's the patterns over time, right, get those naps in, get the sleep schedule to be consistent, you know, slowly lengthen the amount of hours over time, and I can go on.

Philip Pape: 13:46

Like progress photos same thing like looking at yourself in the mirror every day can be misleading, but like monthly shots, those show the changes. Now, that's kind of a weird example, because I don't want you to take photos every day, because it doesn't work that way with photos, right, it's not like photos average out that it doesn't work that way. But for you to see the changes over time, you're going to need data points over time to compare to, and then even subjective metrics, like the biofeedback that I asked my clients to give me to rate their energy, hunger, mood. I look at them when they check in, but I really care about the trend, because you're going to have stress, you're going to have soreness, you're going to have issues here and there, you're going to get sick, et cetera. It doesn't matter. What matters is the trend over time.

Philip Pape: 14:27

So if you put all this together, what does it look like? You've got to have some sort of tool to track. It could be an app, a spreadsheet, a notebook. Have a system that works for you, I don't care what it is. Establish the protocol, right. When am I going to track it? How am I going to do it? So, for for weight we already talked about that every day in the morning, blah, blah, blah, um. Commit to doing it regularly, right? If it's daily, that makes sense. Do it daily. Consistency matters the most, so don't beat yourself up if you miss one Um, but also allow yourself to see the benefit of doing it as frequently as you think you need to do it like daily for scale, weight and maybe less for other things.

Philip Pape: 15:05

And then you're going to review your data weekly or biweekly and spot the patterns. You're going to look at the trends. That can be a really fun part of it, because now you've got enough data to give you a trend. And now you're like, oh, I'm glad I had all that data right, because otherwise it'd be missing and it wouldn't be able to figure out what's going on. Same thing with me as a coach. It's like if you weren't tracking for the last two weeks, I can't help you as much because I don't have that data. And so then you can make adjustments based on those trends, not the fluctuations, and it helps you avoid the obsessiveness and the emotional response, because now you're like, oh cool, like that early bad night I had, whatever it was eating too much or not getting sleep actually is just kind of some noise. It's noise in the signal, no big deal, right. And so it helps you reduce anxiety and obsession around tracking. That's the magic of this whole thing.

Philip Pape: 15:51

When you understand that the daily numbers are noise, you stop giving them so much emotional power. That's all it is. It's just a false sense of emotional power over you. Then you become more like an engineer or a scientist, right? You're just collecting data points and then you're going to reveal patterns. And this shift in mindset is really liberating. It is really empowering, because suddenly you can enjoy that dinner out without stress you know it's just noise and a larger signal dinner out without stress, you know it's just noise and a larger signal.

Philip Pape: 16:21

You start to see your fitness journey as a data-driven process rather than an emotional roller coaster. So the next time you step on the scale, remember you're not looking at a verdict, a judgment. You're collecting a data point that, combined with many others, dozens, hundreds of others, reveals the true story of your progress. And this isn't about weight tracking, right, this is about the mindset the mindset of an engineer, actually. That's why you listen to me, I think, someone who can look past the daily noise and see the signal that matters, all right.

Philip Pape: 16:50

So if you want to start tracking the smart way, a great way to do that for your food and your weight, which then gives you your metabolism and your targets if you're trying to gain muscle or lose fat, is to download Macrofactor and use code WITSANDWEIGHTS all one word to try it out. You're going to get access to one of the best trend weight and expenditure calculators out there. That's doing it for you as you log your weight, as you log your food. It makes it super easy. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, in fitness as in engineering, the signal is in the noise. You just have to know how to find it. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

The Surprising 4th Macro That Stalls Fat Loss (and Increases Belly Fat) | Ep 275

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That hidden "4th macro" (beyond protein, fats, and carbs) might be the reason you're not seeing results despite tracking everything else.

Philip exposes how this macro impacts your physique beyond just adding calories. What is is? Alcohol!

Learn the science behind alcohol's effects on fat storage, muscle growth, and metabolism - and discover practical strategies to maintain your social life while achieving your physique goals.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body handles alcohol completely differently from any other macronutrient

• Alcohol affects your physique through multiple mechanisms beyond just calories

• The timing of your drinks matters more than you might think

• Exercise changes how your body processes alcohol in a surprising way

• Daily habits matter more than occasional indulgences

• Small strategic changes can lead to significant improvements

Timestamps:

[00:01] Introduction to the concept of a "fourth macro" disrupting fat loss progress
[02:28] Breaking down alcohol's unique properties compared to other macronutrients
[05:23] How alcohol reduces muscle protein synthesis by 24%
[07:21] Research on alcohol's relationship with visceral fat storage
[09:25] Strategic approaches to minimize alcohol's impact on physique goals
[12:14] Practical tips for reducing alcohol consumption
[15:13] Handling social pressure and building alcohol-free habits
[16:41] The surprising connection between exercise and alcohol processing
[18:31] Three-phase framework for managing alcohol while pursuing fitness goals
[20:38] Final thoughts on prioritizing what matters for your physique

The 4th Macro Sabotaging Your Fat Loss and Fitness Goals

When we talk about macros, the usual suspects come to mind—protein, fats, and carbs. But what if I told you there’s a sneaky “fourth macro” that could be the reason your fat loss has stalled, your midsection isn’t budging, and your muscle gains are taking a hit?

That’s right, I’m talking about alcohol, the often-overlooked macronutrient with seven calories per gram that’s wreaking havoc on body composition goals.

Here’s how alcohol disrupts your progress and what you can do to minimize its impact while still enjoying life.

What Makes Alcohol the “Fourth Macro”?

Alcohol has 7 calories per gram, placing it between carbs and protein (4 calories/gram) and fat (9 calories/gram) in energy density. But that’s where the similarity ends.

Unlike the other macros, your body has no storage mechanism for alcohol. It sees alcohol as a toxin and prioritizes metabolizing it immediately, sidelining everything else.

This metabolic priority creates a cascade of effects that sabotage your fat loss and muscle-building goals.

How Alcohol Impacts Fat Burning

A study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that alcohol suppresses fat oxidation (a fancy way of saying “fat burning”) by up to 73% for four to six hours after drinking. Think about that: for hours after you enjoy a couple of drinks, your body essentially pauses its fat-burning efforts.

During this time, the calories from your food—carbs, fats, and even protein—are more likely to be stored as fat since your body is busy processing alcohol. This is like a metabolic traffic jam where alcohol gets the fast lane while everything else is stuck waiting.

The Triple Threat: Muscle, Fat, and Hormones

The effects of alcohol go beyond fat storage.

1. Muscle Protein Synthesis (MPS)

MPS, the process your body uses to build and repair muscle, takes a major hit from alcohol. A landmark study in PLOS ONE found that alcohol consumption post-workout reduced MPS by 24%, even when subjects consumed enough protein. Translation? If you’re drinking after training, you’re undoing some of the hard work you put into the gym.

2. Hormonal Chaos

Alcohol disrupts hormone production, particularly testosterone, a key player in muscle building and fat loss. Studies show testosterone levels can drop by 23% after regular alcohol consumption. Women experience hormonal interference too, with impacts on testosterone and other key hormones.

3. Visceral Fat Accumulation

Alcohol has a dose-dependent relationship with visceral fat (the dangerous fat around your organs). Men who consume more than 14 drinks per week have 30.7% more visceral fat volume compared to non-drinkers. This isn’t the fat you pinch; it’s the deep belly fat associated with serious health risks.

Does Tracking Alcohol as Calories Solve the Problem?

Many people assume they can account for alcohol’s effects by tracking it in their calorie target. While this approach might help with calorie control, alcohol’s impact goes far beyond energy balance. Its hormonal disruptions, suppressed fat burning, and interference with muscle recovery make it a much more complex issue.

Practical Strategies to Minimize Alcohol’s Impact

1. Be Strategic About Timing

• Avoid drinking on training days. Alcohol reduces muscle recovery, so drinking after a workout is a double hit.

• Limit drinking to rest days to minimize its impact on performance and recovery.

2. Moderation is Key

• Every drink you skip is a win for your physique goals.

• Set reasonable limits. For example, aim for one to two drinks per month if body composition is your primary goal.

3. Social Strategies

• Have a go-to non-alcoholic drink like sparkling water with lime or a non-alcoholic beer.

• Be the designated driver—it’s a built-in excuse not to drink.

• Suggest non-drinking social activities like hikes or workouts with friends.

Alcohol Becomes Less Appealing Over Time

As you progress in your fitness journey, something interesting happens: alcohol naturally becomes less appealing. When your training, nutrition, and recovery are dialed in, the short-term pleasure of alcohol often pales in comparison to how good you feel when you’re performing well and seeing results.

This isn’t about perfection or total abstinence (unless that’s your choice). It’s about aligning your actions with what’s most important to you—your health, fitness, and longevity.

My Final Thoughts

Alcohol isn’t just another macronutrient; it’s a disruptor that can stall your fat loss, reduce muscle growth, and lead to long-term health risks.

The good news is, you don’t need to eliminate it completely. With strategic timing, moderation, and better habits, you can still enjoy the occasional drink without derailing your progress.

Remember, every drink you skip is a step closer to your goals.

The key is understanding how alcohol affects your body and making informed choices that support the results you’re working so hard to achieve.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

There are three macros, right Protein, fats and carbs and you might be tracking them. You're tracking your calories, your training, but something's off. The fat loss has stalled, maybe around your midsection, and the culprit might be a hidden fourth macro that's wreaking havoc on your body composition. This often overlooked factor is doing more than just adding calories it's actively interfering with your metabolism, muscle growth and fat storage patterns. Today, we're uncovering the science behind how the fourth macro disrupts your progress and what to do about it. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:54

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today's episode comes from an important question in our Facebook community. Jerry asked about alcohol's impact on body composition beyond just calories, and it's a really good question, because we are always obsessed over protein, fats and carbs, and alcohol does act like a fourth macronutrient in some ways. That might surprise you, and the truth is, most of us, myself included, have been pretty misled about alcohol's effects on our physicals especially, and if not misled, then maybe the information just isn't out there. We've heard everything from you know it's no big deal as long as it fits your macros to even unhelpful information now that can be damaging, like red wine is good for your heart. So today I'm going to break down what the evidence actually says about alcohol's impact on the things that we really care about here fat loss, muscle gain, body composition so you know you can make an informed decision. Now, before we dig into that science I mentioned, this question comes from someone in our Facebook group. If you want to connect with Jerry or anyone else who's trying to optimize their nutrition and training, they're sharing their progress. They're sharing their progress. They're sharing tips. They'll answer your questions. You can get form checks, all this fun stuff using the evidence, using good, solid training methodologies. Join our free Facebook group. Just search for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes and you will find a supportive community, like-minded people just like you, most of whom listen to this podcast and just want to help each other succeed.

Philip Pape: 2:28

All right, let's start by breaking down what makes alcohol unique compared to other macros. Alcohol is definitely a macro. It has seven calories per gram in terms of its density, its energy content. In terms of its density, its energy content. And so it sits between protein and carbs, which those have four calories per gram, and then fat has nine calories per gram, so it's in between, but that's where the similarities end. Okay, I don't want you to think of it as like the other macros, because your body handles alcohol completely different from any other nutrients, and understanding that is really important.

Philip Pape: 3:05

First, let's talk about what happens when you consume regular macros. When you consume protein, carbs and fats, your body can store all of those nutrients. Carbs get stored as glycogen in your muscles and liver. Fat gets stored in adipose tissue. Protein gets broken down and used to build or repair tissues. So your body has options and it can process these nutrients at its own pace.

Philip Pape: 3:29

Alcohol is a completely different story. Listen up, okay. Your body does not have a storage mechanism for alcohol Zero. It views alcohol as a toxin that must be cleared from your system immediately. Right, and this isn't about preference, it's a biological imperative. Your liver drops everything else it is doing to deal with the alcohol first, and this metabolic priority then creates a cascade of effects that directly impact your body composition.

Philip Pape: 3:59

Research published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition shows that alcohol suppresses fat oxidation. That means fat burning by up to 73% for four to six hours after you drink. Think about that. For up to six hours after having drinks with your dinner, your body basically stops burning fat. But it gets worse Because during that time, guess what happens to all the other calories you consume, all those carbs and fats that you're eating alongside your drinks, or even just your regular meals. They are more likely to be stored as fat because your body's too busy dealing with the alcohol. So it's like having this traffic jam in your metabolism where everything backs up while there's one priority vehicle alcohol. Maybe, know, maybe Elon Musk owns the alcohol company, I don't know, but it has priority everything, everything else, and it gets through. Now you might be thinking, okay, but what if I account for the calories from alcohol in my daily target? Right, if I, I should just track it right. And that is a great question. And it leads us to the next point point, because even if you could perfectly account for the calories, alcohol still affects your body composition through multiple other mechanisms that have nothing to do with calories. So let's get into that and talk about kind of the triple threat here between muscle, fat and hormones. As it relates to alcohol.

Philip Pape: 5:23

We're going to start with muscle protein synthesis. That is, the process of building and maintaining muscle mass. You might have seen it abbreviated MPS, right, and that's all it is. It's building muscle. And there was a landmark study in PLOS1, I never know how to pronounce it, plos1, that found that alcohol consumption decreased exercise induced muscle protein synthesis by about 24% when subjects consumed alcohol post-workout. Now I know we're not all just like chugging down a glass of whiskey or a beer right after a workout although I have done my share of obstacle course races in the past and got my free beer and I can tell you that was a pleasurable experience but still, we're not all doing that. But regardless, 24% drop in muscle protein synthesis after having a drink after exercise like that's a huge reduction in your body's ability to do the thing that you just trained for build and repair muscle, even when you're eating enough protein and training Like that's crazy. So put that in perspective. Imagine you just finished a training session. You spent 90 minutes with your squats, with your deadlifts, with, with your, all your accessories, right, and you you even hit your protein target for the day. You're eating plenty and you're feeling great. Then you have a few drinks with dinner, so maybe you're training in the afternoon, even though you did everything else right, you've just cut your potential muscle gains for that session by nearly a quarter, according to this research Um, you research, and I know we're not.

Philip Pape: 6:52

I mean, it depends on how often you do it right, how much you drink and all of that. But the impact goes beyond and I want to kind of stack on top of that it's beyond just the protein synthesis, because it also affects your hormones. It affects your testosterone levels and, as you surmise, not in a good way. Research shows that regular alcohol consumption can suppress testosterone production by up to 23% in men, and then for women, even though the impact is a little bit less dramatic, it still interferes with testosterone, as well as other hormones that affect body composition.

Philip Pape: 7:21

And then let's look at fat storage, because it gets interesting here as well. There's research in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition that shows that regular alcohol consumption has a dose-dependent relationship with visceral fat, that is, the dangerous fat around your organs, your belly fat, and men consuming more than 14 drinks per week had 30.7% more visceral fat volume compared to non-drinkers. Right, and that is not just the subcutaneous fat that you can pinch, it is the deep belly fat that is associated with serious health risks. It isn't just a function of these guys gaining more weight. It is a separate variable that is very important to get into your brain, like I've.

Philip Pape: 8:08

This is one of the primary reasons I've all but cut off alcohol. I admit I still have a drink every now and then. Once a month I'll have a drink. I mean it is so rare compared to what it used to be for many of these reasons. And then there's something that doesn't take. It doesn't get talked about enough how alcohol impacts your stress response, because when you drink, your body produces more cortisol, the stress hormone. We think of alcohol as this downer. It like relaxes you and everything, but it actually makes you more stress on the whole. High cortisol levels are associated then with guess what? Increased belly fat storage and reduced muscle mass. Double, triple, quadruple, whammy. I mean you do the math. You're not just dealing with direct effects of alcohol, but then this hormonal cascade that creates an environment perfect for fat storage and muscle loss.

Philip Pape: 8:57

Come on, guys, are you getting the picture? That is not what we want, right? And I did this episode because I didn't want to say, hey, alcohol's poison, it's toxic, you shouldn't drink it. I actually wanted to come to it from the other direction of no-transcript. If you care about these things, it's up to you how much. Or if you want to drink alcohol, right, that's it. I'm not coming to it from the judgment or shame perspective, but from the physiology, the anatomy, the biology perspective, all right.

Philip Pape: 9:25

So what do we do with all this information? Right, I'm not here to tell you never to drink again. I know that's not realistic for most people and, quite frankly, it's not necessary for the vast majority of us to achieve our goals. Oh boy, I said it. Yes, I said it, and I know I've had some guests on who've talked about total abstinence from alcohol and that is totally an option for you, absolutely an option. I would totally encourage that if you want to do that. But I'm talking realistic pragmatism here and I know not everybody's going to do that. So instead, let's talk about strategic approaches to minimize alcohol's impact on your physique goals. We'll start there and if you decide you want to totally abstain because at the end of the day that will get you the most benefit, that is up to you.

Philip Pape: 10:08

So first, let's talk about timing. If you're going to drink, do it on rest days, don't do it on training days. If we're to believe the 24% reduction in muscle synthesis. You don't do it on training days, right? If we're to believe the 24% reduction in muscle synthesis, you don't want that happening right after a good workout. Now, it's going to happen whenever you drink. So just know that on the net it's still going to have an impact. But if you train on your off day, that might be a little bit better than training right after you work out or on your training day. But not only that your performance in the gym is going to suffer if you're training while your body is still processing alcohol. So don't do it on, like the evening before your training day either. If you train in the morning, just be smart about it and separate it.

Philip Pape: 10:46

And I see this with clients, right? They hit a great workout, a great training session on Friday. Then they go out for drinks that night and then they're like I'm kind of weak and unmotivated on Saturday. Well, what the heck? You just had a bunch of drinks Friday night, right? It's not just in your head. Your body is literally still dealing with the metabolic aftermath of the drinks.

Philip Pape: 11:04

Um, which, by the way, it doesn't necessarily happen if you have like a massive buffet or Chinese food. Many times you go into the gym next day and you're like super energized from that. So that's why there's a difference between these things. Um, the second is the amount, the quantity. Right, we know that there's a clear dose dependent relationship with the negative effects and, by the way, I should have put this disclaimer early on.

Philip Pape: 11:27

If you struggle with alcohol, if there's alcoholism in your family or yourself or any, I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole. It is outside my scope to deal with actually alcoholism and alcohol dependency. This episode is not for you. This is about just understanding the relationships between moderate alcohol consumption and your body. Okay, so the dose dependent relationships. So every drink that you don't have is a win for your physique. I want you to remember that Every drink you choose not to have. So if you were gonna have like five beers in a row but you decide every other beer is an alcohol-free beer, count those as wins for your physique, and you might be rolling your eyes at this point thinking, okay, again, here's the lecture about never drinking again.

Philip Pape: 12:14

But that's not what I'm suggesting. I want you to set some reasonable limits based on your goals. So if you're serious about body composition, I would limit yourself to one to two drinks per month. And if that sounds crazy, if that sounds extreme for you and I've been there I used to have a glass of wine every night and I used to have like five, six beers on the weekend and I gradually weaned myself off and started to swap things out. So what do you do? Well, you start by cutting your current intake by a percentage of that, like maybe in half, and observe the changes, and then you might be surprised how much better you feel and perform Right, and the way I would do that is I wouldn't just say, okay, if you drink two drinks every day, drink one drink every day.

Philip Pape: 12:51

I might want to drink, like you know, half the days or something like that, but do whatever makes sense to you. Um, you know, one of our, one of our members in our in um, my group program, the physique university, had some struggles with drinking and and you know I see this a lot, right, I see this a lot it's like everything else starts to get dialed in and drinking still is a challenge, and so she simply moved from drinking every weekend every other weekend. So she still accepted the fact that she wanted to go out with her girlfriends to the pub and really enjoy the craft beers, but it would be every other weekend and the weeks where she didn't drink she was like holy moly, I have way better recovery, my walks feel great, I feel like just more up to doing things, my training's consistent, I'm hitting PRs, I'm actually I can lose weight, my metabolism goes up, and then it kind of slides back a little bit on the weeks where she would drink. So that's what I mean by kind of alternating, to see the contrast in your own self and let that data drive you to your decision-making. And then as far as the social strategies, I think that's where most people struggle the most, because it's rarely about that physical craving for alcohol, right, or the physical hunger, whatever you wanna call it. It's the social pressure, it's the habits that we built around drinking. So what do we do about that?

Philip Pape: 14:06

All right, first have a go-to non-alcoholic drink ready to go right, and it could be something, not even in the realm of alcohol, like sparkling water with lime or a seltzer or something you know, not hard seltzer, but a regular seltzer, diet soda, something that looks like a drink. No one questions it. You're at the party, they think it's a rum and coke, whatever. Who cares Not that it should matter, but I know a lot of us care. So that's where I'm starting from. And then, guess what? You stay hydrated too, so probably makes things. You could maybe have the food. You stay hydrated, you enjoy yourself. Don't get as buzzed if if it's mixed in with alcoholic beverages and you're cutting down, um. But here's the thing there are also lots of options with the rise of these non-alcoholic uh, craft beverages, beers and mixed liquors and even wines. So, uh, going with a non-alcoholic beer is a great option these days. Seriously, it tastes, they taste pretty good. So if you just like the ritual and the taste of beer, that alone could be enough for you to say, ah, this is pretty close to it. I'm just not getting that buzz, but I'm also not getting all the terrible after effects and effects on my body composition later either. Um.

Philip Pape: 15:13

The second thing is you don't have to explain yourself to anyone. You just don't write a simple like hey, I'm good with water tonight is enough. If someone's pushing you to drink, it's. It's more about them. It's about their relationship with alcohol, their insecurities. It's not you. Right now you can be strategic. You can volunteer to be the designated driver, and then you know, they know you can't drink or say, hey, I have, I have an early morning training session, like that's important to me, I'm just not drinking. Cause that if you have to give a reason there's, there's a strategic way to do it. And then the third thing here is you know why don't you build connections with people and activities that don't revolve around drinking it and activities that don't revolve around drinking it might sound obvious, but I think that's powerful, right? Instead of meeting friends for drinks, suggest going on a hike or doing a training session together, or a lunch where you're having food but not drinks. I mean, you be the judge. And then you'd be amazed at how many people are actually relieved to have social options that don't involve alcohol.

Philip Pape: 16:10

It's funny part of my wife's family. They stay away from alcohol because there's a history there, and so when we go to parties with them, it's just I remember early on being a little frustrated. I'm like, where's the cooler with the beers? Where where's the wine? And after a couple of those I just didn't think about it and I would go and guess what. We have fun, it's no big deal. You enjoy it. You have diet soda, you have the cake. Right, you throw the football around, whatever, and you have fun. You don't need the alcohol, um, so so that's kind of. Hopefully I didn't get too judge judgmental there. Hopefully that was a reasonable take on this subject.

Philip Pape: 16:41

Uh, and I think if, if you, if you think about alcohol and training, um, it's if you link them together, I think it's going to be helpful, because we know the research shows that regular exercise changes how your body even processes alcohol. Like you actually become better at clearing it, which is not an encouragement to drink more, but it does potentially reduce the negative effects on body composition. It might explain why some, like active, healthy people, seem to handle alcohol better than others. And again, it doesn't mean you should drink more. It suggests that maintaining your training routine becomes even more important. If you choose to drink occasionally, right, you're building a better defense system against the negative effects of really anything you put into your body. It's like having a better cleanup crew right, better, better detox crew in your body. And it like having a better cleanup crew, right, better detox crew in your body. And it explains something that I've noticed with clients over the years that those who maintain consistent training schedules they go to the gym, they put in the work. Even if they do keep drinking moderately, right, they tend to maintain better body composition. They can lose fat. Yes, they can have a-pack abs. Then those who are intermittent with their training but strict about alcohol Now, process that. It's not that the alcohol becomes harmless, it's that the positive adaptations from regular training provide some protection against the negative effects, because you're, overall, a healthier person on the net, which again is a good theme to remember when we talk about moderation and balance, and even when it comes to your food and your indulgences, that, yes, you can have some vices in there. I'm not going to tell you one way or the other, just know the impact and also prioritize being a healthy, fit person, all right. So this episode is getting long in the tooth, but I think it's a really important topic and I want to help you create a practical framework for managing this while pursuing your physique goals.

Philip Pape: 18:31

So three phases I wrote down here. First one is you want to do an audit, an assessment, take an honest look at your current health. Just be honest with yourself, right? How many drinks per week? When do you typically drink? What triggers the desire to drink? Do not judge yourself, just gather the data like we would with anything else we do here. It's data tracking.

Philip Pape: 18:52

Phase two is strategic reduction. Right, this isn't going cold turkey. It's making those intentional choices that are really easy, like switching one drink per week to a non-alcoholic or moving your drinking days away from your training days. Phase three is then building the new habits. Right, and this may be a little harder for some of us, but it's where things get sustainable.

Philip Pape: 19:12

Find the go-to non-alcoholic drink that you identified in phase two. Build connections that don't revolve around alcohol so you don't have as much temptation, and then create routines that don't involve drinking, just in general, things that help you relieve stress, because a lot of you are like well, I drink to relieve stress. There are a million ways to relieve stress that don't have super negative effects that ultimately increase your stress, and remember that one Alcohol actually increases your cortisol. So the key to all of this is progress, progress, progress. It's not perfection. Every drink you don't have is a win for your physique goals. Remember that Every time you choose water instead of wine, you're giving your body a better chance to build muscle and burn fat efficiently, if that is your goal.

Philip Pape: 19:49

So the fourth macro remember that this is the fourth macro, alcohol. It is unique, right, especially if you're trying to be fitter and leaner and more healthy and live a long life. Understanding the mechanisms empowers you to make informed choices. It's not about complete restriction, at least not off the bat. Ultimately, if you want to do that for alcohol specifically, I don't think that's a bad idea. But it's really aligning your actions with what's important right now, right. And when you understand how alcohol affects your body at a biological level. By the way, share this episode with somebody else who needs to understand this or maybe just doesn't know or thinks that there's something good about alcohol. Then you can make decisions that support your goals, just like anything else where we try to get more educated. And then you find that you know, as your physique gets better, your training progresses.

Philip Pape: 20:38

Guess what's going to happen? This happened to me, happens to so many people. The drinks become less appealing. You just want them less Again. The occasional whiskey or whatever you enjoy. I still do that. I get it. But it's not because you're restricting yourself that you avoid those things. It's because you're prioritizing what really matters to you above that. All right. If you found value in today's episode and again you want to connect with others like Jerry on their fitness journey.

Philip Pape: 21:02

Join our Facebook group. Just search for Wits and Weights or click the link in the episode notes and hop on into the group Once I approve you in there, which is usually pretty quickly. Share your thoughts on this episode, right, Say hey, I found you through the alcohol episode and it was interesting and I want to continue the conversation. Right, and hey, I'd love to hear your strategies for managing alcohol, if that's specifically what you're looking for. Uh, but there's lots of other topics we cover in the group, so join to check those out. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, sometimes the best gains come from what you choose not to consume. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How to Stop Your Fitness Goals from Destroying Your Relationship (EJ and Tarah Kerwin) | Ep 274

Join our free Facebook group to continue this conversation and connect with others who are building their best health and physique. You’ll get exclusive content, live Q&As, and free nutrition and training guides.

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Is your fitness journey unintentionally straining your relationships? How can you pursue personal goals while maintaining emotional intimacy? What systems can help couples thrive in both their health and love lives?

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the intersection of fitness and relationships with EJ and Tarah Kerwin, licensed therapists and co-hosts of the Relationship Renovation Podcast. Together, they uncover practical tools for navigating conflicts, aligning goals, and fostering collaboration in your fitness journey without sacrificing connection with your partner.

Discover how to avoid common pitfalls, communicate more effectively, and build systems that honor your individuality while strengthening your bond. Whether you're meal prepping or juggling gym schedules with kids, this episode offers essential strategies for harmony in both your fitness and personal lives.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:45 Relationship dynamics and connection with fitness and nutrition
6:38 Managing different schedules and priorities with adaptiveness and intention
10:06 Creating collaborative systems as a couple
13:23 Plan, predict, and prepare
16:25 Maintaining emotional and physical intimacy during intense fitness phases
18:21 Balancing parenting, meeting needs, and gym time
22:21 Recognizing how to show support in coupleship
26:14 Agreement boundaries in coaching dynamics
31:06 Addressing body image and emotional triggers
35:09 Communication strategies, triggers, and boundaries around fitness and nutrition goals
44:02 Navigating differences in parenting and shared values evolve over time
49:13 How vows and flexibility support long-term relationships
53:48 Rapid-fire questions
57:45 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: relationshiprenovation.com

• Podcast: relationshiprenovation.com/podcast 
  

How to Pursue Fitness Goals Without Destroying Your Relationship

Pursuing fitness goals like building muscle, losing fat, or dialing in nutrition can be life-changing. But what happens when your partner isn’t on the same page? If your fitness journey starts creating tension at home, it’s time to reevaluate your approach. In this blog, we’ll dive into actionable strategies to achieve your fitness goals without sacrificing connection, using insights from licensed counselors EJ and Tarah Kerwin.

Why Fitness Can Strain Relationships

When one partner starts taking fitness seriously—meal prepping, counting macros, or hitting the gym regularly—it can leave the other partner feeling neglected or left behind. Common sources of tension include:

• Different eating habits, like one partner sticking to a strict meal plan while the other enjoys takeout.

• Conflicting schedules, especially if workouts take priority over shared time.

• A lack of communication about how these goals affect the relationship.

These issues don’t mean your fitness goals are the problem. Instead, they’re an opportunity to strengthen your relationship by getting intentional about balancing priorities.

Build Systems for Collaboration

The key to balancing fitness and relationships lies in building systems that work for both of you. EJ and Tarah recommend these strategies:

Daily Check-ins

Spend five minutes every day sharing how you’re feeling and what your goals are for the day. This small habit can help align priorities, minimize misunderstandings, and create a sense of teamwork.

Plan, Predict, Prepare

Adopt the "plan, predict, prepare" framework for everything from gym schedules to meal prep. Anticipate potential points of conflict and create solutions in advance, like alternating gym times or meal prepping together to stay connected.

Set Clear Boundaries

If one partner wants to help coach the other, make sure it’s a mutual decision with clear boundaries. Avoid letting fitness become a source of criticism or control—it should always be about support.

Addressing Mismatched Fitness Goals

It’s common for one partner to be more invested in fitness than the other, which can create friction. To avoid resentment, focus on acceptance and curiosity instead of judgment.

Ask questions to understand your partner’s perspective:

• "What’s been your experience with fitness lately?"

• "How can I support you without pushing my own goals onto you?"

This approach turns potential conflict into an opportunity to connect, while allowing each person to maintain their individuality.

Don’t Let Fitness Hurt Intimacy

Extreme fitness goals, like contest prep or cutting phases, can strain emotional and physical intimacy. The Kerwins recommend soft, empathetic communication to stay connected during high-stress phases:

• Use “I” statements to express concern, e.g., “I’ve noticed you seem more stressed lately. Is there something I can do to help?”

• Avoid criticism or defensiveness. Instead, focus on curiosity, e.g., “What’s driving you to push so hard right now?”

Fitness should enhance your life—not put up walls between you and your partner.

Adapt to Life’s Changes

Your relationship, like your fitness goals, will evolve over time. Injuries, schedule changes, and family priorities all come into play. A strong relationship isn’t about avoiding challenges but navigating them together.

Think about your fitness journey and relationship as part of a long-term plan. If something isn’t working—whether it’s a workout routine or a shared responsibility—adjust and move forward. Remember, flexibility is key to sustainability in both fitness and relationships.

Actionable Tips to Balance Fitness and Relationships

1. Make Fitness a Team Effort
   Even if your partner doesn’t share your goals, find ways to involve them. For example, meal prep together, even if you’re eating different foods.

2. Be Curious, Not Critical
   When conflicts arise, approach your partner with curiosity instead of judgment. Ask open-ended questions and listen to their concerns.

3. Protect Time for Connection
   Don’t let gym time or meal prep come at the expense of emotional intimacy. Schedule quality time together, even if it’s as simple as a nightly walk or cooking a shared meal.

4. Communicate Your Why
   Share why your fitness goals matter to you and how they align with your shared values as a couple. This builds mutual understanding and support.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've noticed your relationships becoming strained as you pursue your fitness goals or your partner seems distant or resentful about your dedication to training and nutrition, or even if you're struggling to balance your physical pursuits with your emotional connections, this episode is for you. Today, we're discussing the often ignored impact that pursuing fitness can have on our closest relationships, and how to prevent your path to a better body from leading to a broken connection. Whether you're meal prepping while your partner orders takeout or spending Saturday mornings at the gym instead of enjoying time together, what we're about to share will help you achieve your fitness goals while strengthening, not sacrificing, your relationships. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:59

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are exploring that delicate balance between fitness goals and relationship health with EJ and Tara Kerwin. Now, ej is a licensed professional counselor and Tara is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and as co-founders of the Relationship Renovation Counseling Center and hosts of the very popular Relationship Renovation podcast, go make sure to follow that. They have helped many couples work through the challenges of pursuing individual goals while maintaining strong emotional connections. Today, you'll learn how to maintain that emotional intimacy while pursuing your physique goals, how to turn potential sources of conflict into opportunities to connect, and specific tools for building a stronger relationship through your fitness journey. Ej Tara, welcome to the show.

Tarah Kerwin: 1:47

Thank you so much for having us. We're very excited to be here.

EJ Kerwin: 1:50

Yeah, nice to meet you, Philip. We are excited to have this conversation.

Philip Pape: 1:57

And I'm going to say this as a first, guys, because we were talking before we recorded that we talk about the nuts and bolts of fitness all the time but never quite get into relationships much more than surface level. So I wanted to have you on to get into that, because I see something all the time with my nutrition clients and I hear it from listeners that, for example, one partner is tracking their macros, their meal prepping, they're using a food scale, they're training, they're changing all their habits right, and the other is at some level not that they either they're not fully on board or they're far from that behavior and there's a huge disconnect. I guess I want to start with that dynamic, the relationship dynamic in that situation, so that people listening can say, okay, I kind of fall into that bucket, and then we can talk about what couples can do about it. You can just share with us your experience with that dynamic.

EJ Kerwin: 2:48

Well, I mean on the personal level. We've just seen it over. You know we've been together over a decade and both of us have had times where we've trained for marathons, you know, embarked on like personal journeys around, whether it be weight loss or toning or whatever. And how much more effective it is when we're both sort of in it together, you know it just makes it a hell of a lot easier. Like you said, if you're eating the same way and so you're meal prepping together, it makes it easier. And then we've also had times where you know there's an injury or there's just a lack of motivation from one of us and that that can not just like make it harder to achieve your goals but also create like disruption and just how we're getting along.

Tarah Kerwin: 3:31

Well, and what? The first thing I think is when EJ and I first started dating, I was a big runner and he's like Tara I hate running, so don't ever expect me to be a runner and I was like, oh, I would, I would never do that, like right. But this relationship, just like we're trying to get in shape with our body, and that's its own system. The relationship is a system and if you don't have skillful ways of making that collaborative, then people will be in it alone. And then that's what we see when couples come in and they're alone in their wellness journey.

Tarah Kerwin: 4:02

Maybe one's got more motivation than the other, but they're not talking about it, they're not sharing their experiences, they're not in this place of acceptance around. Maybe I am more motivated to eat healthier this year, but this person isn't. But how can we create systems that feel cooperative, collaborative so that we can still both support each other and not judge each other to make it feel like we're in it alone? And again, the couples we see they're in it alone. Maybe one person's really healthy and fit, the other person's not so motivated, for whatever transition timing, whatever it may be, for a myriad of reasons, and they, like, are fighting against it, like how dare you want me to change and why don't you want to be healthier and you're just like you guys? How do we get in this together so both of you can get your needs met even though they're differently? Like we can, this can happen. I know that's like a long answer to your no it's beautiful.

Philip Pape: 4:58

There's so many gems in there. One thing you said was skillful ways of making it collaborative and making systems, and just because you have maybe slightly different goals or your different times in your life and this evolves through a relationship. I know for a fact I've been married to almost 20 years and I can tell you that we both have changed quite a bit since then, and it's cool. We both have different goals at any one point and the telling someone right off the bat this is what I like, this is what I don't right Honest communication, just so that you can get on the same page, because, who knows, maybe it is a deal breaker for, like getting married, that hey, you don't like to run, forget it, that's you don't like to climb mountains.

Philip Pape: 5:37

I don't know, but it sounds like communication is obviously going to be important part of this, and also supporting each other regardless and there's going to be a lot of personal stuff for me that comes out of this conversation, which I'm sure you get that a lot where I think about.

Philip Pape: 5:51

I'm huge into lifting my wife she strength trains, but she's more into cardio type stuff and we've realized that what we want to do is just support each other, whatever that means for that, and by doing that you then tend to get a little more openness on both sides to what the other is doing and curiosity, I guess I would say Absolutely. So then what happens when this goes to that level of a wide chasm? Right, when one partner gets very serious you mentioned before we recorded a bodybuilding competitor and we talk about this show of physique development where it gets really. When you get super serious about it, it's an extreme and a lot of things fall to a lower priority. Can you do that sustainably while still being in a relationship and how does that happen? How does that work?

EJ Kerwin: 6:38

Well, I mean, I think a number of things falls into this category, and and certainly fitness, and and then like training for serious fitness goals, definitely, and and the negative dynamic that often happens is we are, uh, adaptive creatures, you know, we, but we oftentimes adapt unintentionally, right, and so, like in this case that we were talking about earlier, we there was one member of the couple who you know, who did competition, you know where the physique competitions, and so they would go through like a two month cutting period, I think it was, and what they said was like, basically, what happens is, during that cutting period, the one partner just became a bear, you know, and was just like you know. Cause they were, they were at a calorie deficit and so their mood was deteriorated, you know they, they bordered on depression, because when you're, when you're not, when you're not feeding yourself, you can get depressed, you can get anxious, and the way they unconsciously adapted was they would just basically avoid each other for two months.

Tarah Kerwin: 7:44

But the one thing that would happen is she would be alone in it every day because of the guilt she would have for like being a bear, but just would not talk about it. So he would just. He just learned, like just don't stay away, we will not have a relationship.

Tarah Kerwin: 7:57

For two months We'll live together. I'll help her do the meal prep. But other than that, like but she was still alone in her suffering and he felt super alone, Like he wanted to support her and be like hey, I got you, but she had all this shame around being such a bear that she would push him away.

EJ Kerwin: 8:15

And so. So our goal with couples oftentimes is like looking at okay, one's what, what are the ways that you've adapted? Adapted without intentionality? Okay, what didn't work about that? All right, let's create a new system. Right, like, okay, you want to support your partner. You know you go through mood changes. Well, let's make really intentional decisions around that. And that's a big thing that we help couples overcome in multiple ways is just getting like intentional and making decisions that make sense and that keep you emotionally connected. Because what we find happens is first, like that couple, they become emotionally distant from one another because they're not checking in, but then eventually what it leads to is physical disconnection, is like they stop having sex because you know your partner might look fantastic, but if every interaction you have with them is either negative or you're just not talking to them, what are the chances your sex life is going to stay positive?

Philip Pape: 9:19

Yeah, you talked about being adaptive creatures and not doing it with intentionality, and that's that's what appeals to me. Here is again the theme that you don't have to abandon these pursuits. It's just what are you doing to make them intentional, and I suppose that there will be. That would then open up conversation to other trade-offs or compromises that both sides need to make. So, for example, if that person you were talking about the competitor, that's the woman in the relationship right, she was the competitor.

Philip Pape: 9:49

Yep, and she's like look, I have to weigh all my food on a food scale every time I eat. How does that affect when they get together to eat, or do they eat separately? Like I'm curious about the details of how that looked and how they dealt with that. You said they were having issues, but did they resolve those issues and then what did that look like?

Tarah Kerwin: 10:06

So I'm going to bleed this into another couple that I actually directly work with around this, and what would happen is he is meat potatoes kind of dude, like loves his cheese on his potatoes. She went through the six month hardcore training and food, like counting her macros, micros, all of that. And so at first, right, they came in because he was like I'm not eating that crap that you prepared, right? So, anyway, they started having all of this conflict and I was like, okay, hold on a second, let's just get down to what are each of your needs. His need was cause she was the cooker. She cooked every meal for him. He worked nine to five job. She got off earlier so she would cook the meals.

Tarah Kerwin: 10:51

So what we did is we started to come up with agreements. What was he willing to do? What was she willing to do? What was he willing to eat that was clean? What was she willing to eat Maybe one day a week that wasn't so clean, because she got to have like a little cheat day, if that's what this one coach called it. And so we literally sat for a three-hour session and came up with a system every single day for this couple so that both of them would feel they were winning, so they would do a bunch of the meal prep on Sunday for both of them together, and that way they're still eating together, but they might be eating different meals. But now, even though he wasn't in it with her, she felt like, oh my gosh, he's still willing to meal prep with me on Sunday, cause I can't do all of this like two separate meals breakfast, um, lunch and dinner by myself.

Tarah Kerwin: 11:42

And they like literally it was like one or two sessions and they had they not come in. I can tell you, cause we've seen this too they're in a place of resignation. This will never change. This person isn't for me. I don't want to do this anymore. And I was like I helped them be in this place of acceptance, like, look, your wife is going through this program. She's really motivated. I know it's changing your lifestyle completely. It's not forever. What are you willing to do to be in this place of acceptance instead of powerlessness? And when you kind of use that language from like disempowered to empowered, people like, oh, it's like you don't even think about it. It's like the situation is the same, but you could either resign to it and become a victim of it, or you could be like how can I accept that this is our situation right now and how can we work together to the best of our ability to come up with agreements that feel good for both of us?

Philip Pape: 12:32

Yeah, I like the idea of the agreements, because those difficult conversations it's just what they are, I mean again speaking from personal experience and my wife is great at initiating those and I've learned to initiate them because you know, guys and women often don't approach that in different ways and it's like you get the pit of your stomach. You're dreading it all day. If you want to have this conversation, especially if you don't have the support or maybe therapist to kind of make you do it if you will for lack of a better term but then it's like many things that you dread it's. It's kind of tell me if I'm wrong, but it's almost like overblown. Once you get through it you realize that actually wasn't as big a deal, but it's going to make a massive improvement because we labeled these specific things. Like you said, we're going to agree on exactly what we want to eat and we'll know that about each other and then we're going to do the things together, even if we don't eat the same thing, right?

Tarah Kerwin: 13:22

And every single day checking in with each other. Like Dr Stan Tatkin, he's this great researcher in the field of relationships and he has this the triple P's plan predict, prepare. We can't predict everything, but we can predict a lot of things on a daily basis. And if we can plan, predict, prepare for our day every day as a couple whether that's around lifestyle, meal planning, workouts we're going to get successfully through it. But most people don't take those 10 minutes to do that. And then all of these right unconscious expectations, disappointments, self judgments, insecurities, you name it.

EJ Kerwin: 13:58

Well, and it, and it, and it metastasizes right, because it starts off as just like okay, we can't talk about nutrition. You know, every time we talk about nutrition, it ends up in a fight so you, so you avoid it, you know you avoid it.

EJ Kerwin: 14:14

And then and then you just start feeling more emotionally disconnected, or you or you lose confidence that you can face conflict and come out with a resolution that feels good for both people. And so there's again, there's that initial emotional disconnect. We just won't deal with it and it just starts to spread because it's like, well, if we can't talk about this and we probably can't talk about parenting, and if we can't talk about parenting probably can't talk about money. And then all of a sudden, you're, you're avoiding every and especially, like you said, men, men will just be like, well, I'm not going to bring up anything difficult, I'm just going to like can, I'm going to hide in my cave, I'm going to go do my thing and she'll do her thing. And uh, and our goal was like we bring people back and we say, hey, you have different needs, let's negotiate it, you know, let's. Let's honor each other. Let's negotiate it, you know, let's honor each other, let's find some healthy communication habits.

Tarah Kerwin: 15:09

And let's figure out that you actually can solve these problems and that you're not uniquely broken and that you can get through it. It's just skills that we are not. We don't learn how to you know skillfully navigate through difficult emotions. We learn how to defend ourselves from them. So when they hear that you're not uniquely broken, we all have to learn these skills. It's not innate in us. It softens it a little.

Philip Pape: 15:31

Yeah, and that makes me think that any two people on the planet, when you put them together, you're going to have, like a Venn diagram, two circles that overlap a little bit, but there's a lot that doesn't overlap and I think, if we recognize that, about even our closest spouse or partner, whoever that's the case. Something you said, aj, about the men in the conversations. I was watching Ghosts recently. You guys know that show. I think it's on Paramount. It's hilarious. Was watching a game and his wife came up and asked a question and he pauses it and he goes. Okay, this is the best part of the game. But I think this is the time when I need to pause and listen to what you have to say, Like it was the that exact dynamic of you know we're watching the game like come on, but this is important.

Tarah Kerwin: 16:18

You are the most important thing to me. I really want to hear what you have to say.

EJ Kerwin: 16:22

Well, that's, that's that also speaks to this idea of like uh, men are pretty trainable. We, like I've I've found, like in couples counseling, that when you're able to break down I work with a lot of like male engineers over the years who come in and their wives are like telling them like I need you to be more emotionally present. There, they come to me and they're like what is she talking about? I have no idea what that is, president. There they come to me and they're like what is she talking about? I have no idea what that is.

EJ Kerwin: 16:46

And and you just break it down of like well, you want to have this in your relationship, which oftentimes is physical intimacy, right, well, she needs emotional intimacy, and here are things you can do that are pretty practical. When she walks in the house, you put down whatever you're doing, you walk up to her, you give her a hug and a kiss. You know it's like and and men will be like okay, yeah, you know that that's reasonable, that makes sense. But when it's veiled under things like like emotional connection or or vulnerability, there might that that isn't practical enough. You know that's not. That's not like if I do a and B, then then I get C.

Philip Pape: 17:25

Yeah, and that idea, the idea of the systems and the check-ins, I think hits on that in a way where you're just you're making it this objective thing. You know, if I know I want to build muscle, I've got to train three days a week. If I know, when I have more vulnerability and emotional connection, I have to do X, Y, z, like I get that, I get that, and that's a way to appeal to some gender specific differences that folks might have, and I'm sure in your practice everyone's different in their own way, but you just have to find what that is right. Okay, so I'm curious about. We talked a little bit about the food differences. The other thing is the training and schedules and stuff like that. Going to the gym People always ask about that. Well, especially women who have kids, then they have to take care of the kids, or the provider have to get kids ready for school, the list goes on. One parent works from home and they want to go to the gym. That's a massive source of fighting that I've come across right.

Tarah Kerwin: 18:21

Well, I was going to say women, biologically, just like the nurturing piece like there, are more biologically equipped to put all these other needs in front of their own, where and again, this is gender specific but men, like, they're really good at taking care of their own needs, right. And so there's this very like unconscious thing that can happen where it's like, oh, like for me, when I'm putting away laundry, like my laundry is always the last to put away, and I'm like, why is that? Because, like, everybody else comes first. We have four kids and my husband and I didn't even think about it, but guess what I do now? I put away my laundry first.

Tarah Kerwin: 18:55

But it's that idea around like what, if, like that's happening in the relationship, I'm going to start to build resentment. But I didn't intentionally mean to do it. So it's that whole idea of checking in every single day, ej and I wake up at five, 15 in the morning. I'm like, when can I have my gym time? When can you have your gym time?

Tarah Kerwin: 19:15

We make it happen so that both of our needs for fitness are met, because we're agreeing that both of us. It's a very important thing every day for our mental health, for our physical health, to have our gym time and today we're going to the gym at four o'clock so we had to hire a sitter to come watch over our kids so we could do that together, because we didn't have time in the morning to separate and do it. So it's just about a recognizing that needs are equally important and that you have to be able to have those conversations to say what are you needing, what am I needing and how can we make this happen realistically, right and timing and everything. That's where that plan predict, prepare comes in.

EJ Kerwin: 19:57

Well, and I think we we try to use like plural pronouns when it comes to these type of things Like, instead of what, what you know, what you and I, we try to look at it as a we and that we know when we are both taking care of ourselves. We know our brain chemistry is better, we know we feel better about ourselves, we know our attraction level is better, and so it's about like like this is a shared goal, instead of getting you know which. Again, some of this is like a little evolutionary biology stuff where we're very like self-centered, like what I, I, I, you know, and we try to make it about like this is what this is a shared goal we have together. Now, it it might be separate, there might be a period of time where where I'm more in the running phase and she's, you know, more in the F45 phase or what, or whatever you know, and that we have to just like adjust it. But they're shared goals we have together.

Tarah Kerwin: 20:56

And I. But and I do think the first piece of it is like recognizing that the individual needs are both equally important for the sake of the coupleship and being okay to be okay with that. Because I remember, even as a new mom, like, oh, my needs aren't important, like I'm raising humans that have to stay alive. And it actually got us in a really difficult place, which is why we created our Couples Counseling Center in the first place, because I didn't think I had any right to have needs, I mean, my everything went out the window and I lost my identity with my running and my fitness, and it felt really bad. But I just felt like, oh, this is just what we do. And we know now that, no, like you, create systems that will make sure that needs are getting met on both sides, cause that's going to feel really good for both people, and and not lose your sense of individuality within that coupleship.

Philip Pape: 21:48

Yeah, I could see how the nurturing nature of women and again, these are just general statements I know we're making, but there's a lot of truth to them Both really attracts me to the opposite sex in terms of that empathy that they have, and I've learned a lot from it, being around my wife seeing that. At the same time, I could see how it would burn you out because you're putting so many things first. How can a spouse, husband, partner help a woman who does that to herself? How can he help her, maybe prioritize herself, if that yourself, if that makes sense, I mean I love that question.

EJ Kerwin: 22:22

Yeah, for me, like I had to like recognize how much easier it is for me to take care of myself.

EJ Kerwin: 22:31

That that was like sort of the first step was like it took me a long time to realize like, oh, like, some of that resentment she has is like sort of well-based, and that the reality is is, is that like yeah, like I just wake up because I happen to be a morning person I just wake up and I go off to the gym and I'm gone from like five to seven, and then I swoop in and, you know, pick up the kids and take them to school, but like then Tara's left with like the rest of the day where she's trying to figure out how in the world, and clearly it's not working because she's not getting there.

EJ Kerwin: 23:07

So the first thing I had to do was just realize, like you know that that like OK, like I am kind of just taking care of myself and not making room for Tara, right, and then, and then the next thing was like OK, I'm going to have to adjust. You know, like, yeah, I would love to go to the gym every morning at six and and that works for me, but it's not, it's not working for for Tara. She wants me to be around, even if she's isn't able to say it. She needs the support in the morning. So so then it's like okay, like how does this become? Not just me take caring myself, but how does it become us creating a system? And for us it was like, well, we wake up in the morning and we make a plan. You know, because our, our life is sort of it's different from day to day One kid has basketball on Tuesdays, but then there's gymnastics on Wednesdays.

Tarah Kerwin: 24:04

And I was going to say too really quick now to interrupt. But we were just on this new mom's podcast and she asked a very similar question and like moms need to be taken care of too. And so partners hear that because I'm trying to be a super mom right, we had twins that had colic and I'm like nursing and not sleeping or not. But I looked like I got this. I know I haven't slept for five days, but I've got this. So EJ just feels like, oh, she's got this. She's like superwoman. That's not actually happening.

Tarah Kerwin: 24:33

I did not know how to say I need help or support, Because if I say that, that means there's something wrong with me. So when EJ was like baby, your needs are so important, Like you are priority, Like him saying that to me helped normalize and validate that I don't have to be in it alone. So I feel like, yes, EJ doing his individual work, but him letting me know it's okay, you need to get your ass to the gym, Like this is really important, I was like, okay, thank you for recognizing that. It's just you're, you're seen, You're seen and you're being taken care of while you're also taking care of others.

Philip Pape: 25:09

That's great yeah. Going back to plan, predict, prepare. And yeah, because I was thinking, you know, on one hand, we would all love to have our whole week planned and our month planned and like we know when we're going to work out and everything. But life doesn't work that way for everything, for food, for everything. And so, um, I was going to say, ej, just get up at three in the morning and go to the gym.

EJ Kerwin: 25:27

Then right, but that's then, you get no sleep and then you're grumpy and who knows what else. Where does all levels go up and I end up with a hump on my back. And who needs that? There you go.

Philip Pape: 25:37

So something came up regarding training. It comes up a lot in my world where we lift and one partner might ask for help from the other partner, like some coaching, and there's always there's kind of a running joke like never coach your wife. That's the joke, Cause even and I've been through this personally where my wife has asked for help but I'm like I wait until she asks, Cause I don't want to, you know, I don't want to coach her, so to speak, Cause that's not our roles. Um, some people do it successfully and others find that it causes, it makes things worse. So what are your thoughts on that?

Tarah Kerwin: 26:08

Well, yeah, I, I'm interesting to hear what you say, then all yeah.

EJ Kerwin: 26:12

Cool, I think, especially in our relationship, it's I think you, I think you use the Venn diagram, uh, example a while ago, like that that our roles and the aspects of our relationship have a way of polluting other ones, right, and so like, yeah, if you become your, your partner's coach, there are certain ways in which a coach treats the person they coach and there's certain ways in which a husband is a husband to his wife, and then there's certain way business owners, you know, and that's something that that we realize is like our business, our business ownership roles we're messing with our husband wife roles, husband wife roles.

EJ Kerwin: 27:05

And so I think that that's the problem about having that dual relationship is, if is maybe some of the dynamics within your relationship, maybe around control, maybe around poor communication, if you're not careful, it comes into that coaching and and, and it then ends up just not being a positive experience. You know, I can think of a couple I worked with years ago who he desperately wanted to coach his wife in in, uh, on the physical side, you know, in weightlifting, and she just had no interest in it and a lot of it was the, it was the unresolved dynamics that they had in their husband and wife relationship and and so, and then he, you know, really hurt him because it was such an important thing, it was such an important part of his life and he really just wanted to share it, um, but it just wasn't going to happen, you know, and so well, because then there's that feeling of like I'm being judged or if I don't get it this right way.

Tarah Kerwin: 27:56

So I mean I would say it's possible if you have very clear boundaries here's what's okay, here's what's okay, here's what's not okay. It's okay for you to tell me to go up this amount of weight. It's not okay for you to say like I can't believe you didn't just get that last rep in. I mean, I don't exactly know, but like having very clear boundaries around that role, I know each and I do that in our professional life Like here's what's okay, here's what's not okay. Like here's what's okay, here's what's not okay. So if you can have those again agreements, boundaries within that coaching dynamic. But you also say, how do we make sure that this doesn't spill over in our parenting roles or because they're uniquely defined? So I feel like if a couple has good communication skills, is able to have clear boundaries here's what's okay, here's what's not okay I think that's like such a great gift to be able to share that together. But usually people don't have that and so it ends up being it ends up being a nightmare.

EJ Kerwin: 28:52

Well, and then there's all the stuff around like body image and all that right Is like you might be the type of conversation someone you coach you might be able to have a more difficult conversation around around their body that if you have with somebody you're intimate with, they might. That might be a heck of a lot harder. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 29:12

Totally different. I can't imagine if I said to my wife let's get, let's look at your progress photos and look at your uh, you know shoulder definition here, and like no way you've been slipping.

EJ Kerwin: 29:21

Yeah, you're going to a separate bedroom tonight?

Philip Pape: 29:24

yeah, it's crazy, um so. So that's a good segue. Then, when we talk about body image, you mentioned one couple who, like, almost let her health get even worse because as a backlash to her husband or partner being so obsessed with his physical development. Right, do I have that right?

EJ Kerwin: 29:42

Yeah, they were, you know, and then that's within the realm of fitness, but also, sometimes it can be a way a partner protects themselves from intimacy is like is like I don't want to, I don't want to to be attractive to them, or it's the power I have of choosing to work out, not work out that, um, we can definitely use, you know, our fitness, our lack thereof, as a way to, to agitate or to keep ourselves separate from our partner.

Philip Pape: 30:16

I was talking to a guy today who said you know, I'm in my fifties. I built a lot of strength. I want to lean out, but I don't want to get abs, because I know that's weird in my 50s. Like it was this concept of 20 somethings versus 30 and 40 versus 50s, and then whether you're in a relationship or not, whether you're trying to chase girls in your 20s or whatever, and I think there's a lot of maybe misaligned even understanding of what men and women find attractive. So actually the question I wanted to ask more for you, tara, is like do women I mean I know this is general, everybody's attracted to something different? But when it comes to physique, when it comes to six pack abs, when it comes to leanness versus big fat and skinny and all that, like where do women stand on caring about that? And like, how important should it it be? And are men like spending way too much time doing this stuff? I oh my gosh.

Tarah Kerwin: 31:07

That's a loaded question, I know I know, I know, yeah, I mean I here's what's important for me if I see ej taking care of himself, that's important because it makes me feel like I can trust that he cares about his body, his mind, his soul for longevity. So I know that I'm not going to right. I don't have to worry about him having a heart attack or stroke or modeling unhealthy dynamics to our children. So just knowing that he cares and he takes initiative and, yeah, we fall off sometimes but we have this trust that we're, we're really. We want to be healthy. We want to have a healthy mindset. We're not rigid in it, we're very flexible. But I think we both trust each other.

Tarah Kerwin: 31:54

So I don't need him to have six packs Like, is that sexy? And yeah, but I don't. I love him for who he is, cause I know that he yeah, but I don't I love him for who he is because I know that he tries really hard to feel comfortable in his body the way it is. We also have a history. We're both eating disorder specialists, so we've worked with a lot of anorexia, bulimia, purging through exercise. So we know how important body acceptance is and positive body image, no matter what it looks like. So you're probably like talking to the wrong person when it comes to like, how important is that physical critique I think it's the biggest thing for me is like he's willing to stay healthy and strong because it's important to him and it's a value for him and it's also a value to me. So now it's shared.

Tarah Kerwin: 32:40

And if it turned into six-pack abs awesome.

Philip Pape: 32:44

No, that's the good hierarchy of priority. Put that at the bottom.

EJ Kerwin: 32:47

start with the health I know another thing you've expressed to me, though, is when I am being more disciplined around nutrition and around fitness, that you feel then supported in your goals, and when I'm slipping, you get kind of frustrated because you don't feel supported, because then it feels like well, well, like you know, like like you don't really care, and it makes it harder for me to care, you know. So that comes down to with couples like do we have shared values around fitness? Do we have shared values around nutrition?

EJ Kerwin: 33:24

And that can be a one of the big disruptors I've also seen is where two, where there's a couple who doesn't really nutrition and fitness are not important to them, and then, all of a sudden, one of them like the light goes off and, for whatever reason, they're like oh my God, I want to like, feel good in my body, and I want to like, I want to be strong and I want to look in the mirror and feel more proud of myself, and they get on like a fitness journey, and their partner's not there, you know. And then sometimes, their partner even feels like, sort of like judged by it, and almost like back to what we were talking about a few minutes ago, sort of digs their heels into their unhealthy lifestyle because they feel like, like almost like just their partner not being okay with the way they they were, that then it's a judgment on them and that that I've seen cause like major difficulties.

Philip Pape: 34:19

That's a theme that comes up a lot, and not not just with couples but just all relationships. I've noticed, right when you've got a circle of friends, you all go out to the. You know you go out on the weekends, you drink a lot, you go to the game. You know you party all the time, you eat, maybe even smoke, whatever, and then all of a sudden the light goes on for one person and the rest are like trying to pull you back in, potentially unconsciously, due to this insecurity. So as far as your friend circle, it may not be as big of a I'll say deal day-to-day versus the person you're married to or living with. So what do we do about that? What does someone do about that on both sides? So the person who sees their spouse doing this which I suspect somebody could be listening to this podcast, curious about how they haven't really gone on that journey and maybe they got into it because of their spouse and they're not sure and then vice versa, so to me, I'm cause what I?

Tarah Kerwin: 35:10

when I'm thinking about this dynamic, it feels like codependence versus individuation in a relationship. And so and I recognize with EJ and I like, when we both fall off, like we're like, oh, I'm signing up for this fall off, and I'm signing up for this fall off too, let's totally go crazy, and then in January 2025, we are going to get really fit. So that's a codependent piece. That actually doesn't feel really good, because now I've lost my own sense of identity within it. And so when we are talking about this dynamic, I'm like, how do we create a healthy, interdependent system where, if one has a higher motivation than the other, we don't personally react to it, but we're a cheerleader for it?

Tarah Kerwin: 35:54

And if there are insecurities coming up for me, like oh my gosh, I see like EJ's like eating potato chips and drinking whiskey every night, and and I'm like I've been to the gym three times like hey, just checking in with each other emotionally around, what is it like for you to be in this place right now and what's it like for me? And how do you make it not about judging each other, right, because it could be that EJ is maybe going through a difficult transition and like he's kind of just zoning out for a little bit like that's okay. But if I didn't know that and I didn't talk to him about it, I'm going to be like oh gosh, this is my life in 10 years he's going to, like, you know, be that couch potato that I don't want. I mean again it's. It could go down any many different ways, but if you're talking about why it's happening, you, you, you have your sense of independence still, but also for the sake of the relationship and you're, you're really trying to avoid that enmeshment piece. Okay.

Philip Pape: 36:49

Yeah.

Tarah Kerwin: 36:49

And just because EJ is not working out and I am, or I'm not working out and he has, like, what is my insecurity around that? That's growth for me. Like, why am I so triggered by that? That must be something. Then that's my own guilt. Like, oh, I have a hard time being consistent in my life. Why is that? Oh, because I'm a human. Okay, I'm going to have a little self-compassion here, you know, but you got to look at those triggers. Why does it bother me if someone else is being healthy and I'm not?

EJ Kerwin: 37:16

I mean, the big thing for me is just, you can't shy away from the difficult conversations, and that's a big concept that we talk about constantly on our podcast is just like if the actually taking on the difficult conversations builds connection. No-transcript. We've gotten better, you know, and so when it comes around fitness and nutrition, it's just like you just have to, you have to know that you're you're better off talking about it than not talking about it. And if Tara is feeling like a sense of discomfort with some of my habits and she knows like when I'm not taking care of myself, you know, my belly gets bigger and then eventually I don't like, I don't like it, it doesn't, it doesn't feel good, you know, and she oftentimes can see something about me before I see it. And so it has to be okay in our relationship that Tara can be like yo, look you, just, you haven't been really taking care of yourself. That, that, that, that great.

EJ Kerwin: 38:46

And and I'm concerned for you because I know how you are, I know you, I know you care, um, but but what's going on? Cause, cause it's probably not just that. I'm like F it, you know, I want to like, I just want to get you know, I just want to put on 10 pounds Like boy. That sounds fun to me. It's the yeah. It's like I'm struggling to be consistent or or stressed out or.

EJ Kerwin: 39:08

I'm super stressed and I'm just not doing a good job of taking care of myself.

Tarah Kerwin: 39:13

Or talking about it with your partner.

Philip Pape: 39:14

Yeah so so the way Tara would bring that up is and I stay statement about her observations relative to what she knows and you know about each other. Like I noticed you, you've been stressed and not doing this thing that I know you value.

EJ Kerwin: 39:27

How would that look? I mean, if she comes into me with hey, first of all, we always talk about like, when, where, how, like, if she comes to me at the at the right time, um, and she doesn't in a time where you know there's not a bunch of kids and I'm not stressed and she does it then she comes the how is. She says like, look, honey, I'm really concerned about you. Like, cause I? I know, like I've I've known you for years. I know how much you enjoy feeling good in your body and I know how much you enjoy when you have a goal that you're working towards.

EJ Kerwin: 40:01

That's going to be so much more hearable to me than if she's like why didn't you go to the gym? What is going on with you? You are not doing the things that you you know. I'm like cause, what am I then? I'm like automatically defensive. I'm like this is your problem. Like back off, like that doesn't feel good. I'm like this is your problem. Like back off, like that doesn't feel good. Yeah.

Tarah Kerwin: 40:21

It's that soft curiosity and we say we're each other's blind spots, like so many times, like I don't really know what's happening for me and EJ, coming in to be curious and supportive, feels so good because we've gone really good at learning the skills to have that soft startup right. The Gottmans call it soft startup versus harsh startup, like why are you eating that cookie? Versus like hey, honey, help me understand what's happening for you right now.

Philip Pape: 40:51

Right, because there may be an emotional eating piece.

Philip Pape: 40:55

Yeah. So a couple of themes stick out. I mean one is the individuation versus I think you said enmeshment or codependence, right, but then the other being curiosity, and it reminds me of something in positive psychology where there's a hierarchy of connection and the way that you respond to somebody. There's like four categories, right, and of course there's ones that everybody would say, yeah, that's not great when you respond that way. But then there's one where there's a subtle difference, one being hey, how are you, or or you know, just parroting back what they said versus what you said, tara, which is asking a follow-up, asking you know, being curious, wondering about it, because then it kind of puts it back on, you know, from the other person's perspective, and not you accusing them right now you're pushing it on them. Yeah, um, good stuff, good stuff.

Tarah Kerwin: 41:40

And I was going to say really quick because under that, my concern, my curiosity, it's like I love this person and I want this person to be around forever. That's so flattering. But usually people think of it as like, oh, I'm not enough for you, oh, I'm not good enough, and it's like, actually, if I U-turned it, it's because I love you so much, I just want you to be here with me until my grandpa lived to 110. So at least 110,. Babe, you got to surpass my papacy. But we don't share it out like that. It comes out so critical. So, yes, it's really. Yeah, thank you.

Philip Pape: 42:16

I feel you. No, I know what you mean.

Allan: 42:19

Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, philip Pape is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 43:10

You mentioned kids before. I think there's a place to bring that in because for many people listening who have children, and not to really talk about the parenting itself, but really for the relationship with the children involved in that relationship, Given everything we've talked about, where there are differences, there is individuation. Not everything's the same in a physique competition and one's not. Or one parent thinks keto is the way to eat and the other one thinks it's like vegan. I mean, I know a couple who's one eats meat and one eats vegetables and they make it work with their kids and their kid eats both, which is just it's a little bit odd, but it works. So how do you deal with that and make sure the kids are growing up in a healthy environment?

Tarah Kerwin: 44:01

I mean, first of all, I love that because you're highlighting that every individual is unique and whatever that uniqueness to them is is a gift and a present. It's not the right way or the wrong way, but that vegan is a gift for you. That's you, and you celebrate that. So those unique differences to me, you celebrate that. And then how do you bring that together so it can combine into the family that feels good for all? Cause now they're learning balance. They're learning respect of individual differences and uniqueness. That, and that's the thing too. Couples come in like you guys are two unique individuals. You are not the same person. You're not supposed to be thinking the same thing. And if you think that, then what does that say about you? That like you're inferior or like it's right? Having that conversation is like oh yeah, you're right, we are different, yeah.

EJ Kerwin: 44:51

I mean, I think you want to cultivate individuality but also bring a focus to common denominators. Right, like in that couple you're talking about where one's a vegan or one's vegetarian and one's you know real meat-based diet. It sounds like right there, like, although it might look like they're diametrically opposed, the common denominator is they care about what's going into their body. You know they're making intentional choices. They're just different, intentional choices.

Philip Pape: 45:26

It's a good reframe, yeah.

EJ Kerwin: 45:27

Yeah, so for me, that's what I want to focus with. If that was causing that couple problems, is I want to focus on like wow, like what a wonderful thing that you both care you know so how do you support each other in the thing that is common?

EJ Kerwin: 45:40

Because wouldn't it suck if you were with somebody who didn't didn't care whatsoever, you know. So I'm looking for things value-based, mostly because, also like one, one thing that I know is like when our actions and our values don't line up, we tend to suffer more, right? So? So then it makes sense then that you want to support your partner in living in their value system, because then there's a higher likelihood they're going to feel good. You know they're going to feel good about how they move through the world.

Philip Pape: 46:11

So let's pull on that. The values, what if? What if a couple came together, they got married and they realize, you know, before long, they have two very different values and very important areas religion, politics, even dietary preferences, whatever I mean. It does that Can? Can that work? You know, we we seen like what is that? Uh, james Carville and Mary.

EJ Kerwin: 46:37

what are the two that were married, Right?

Tarah Kerwin: 46:38

I don't know, if they're still together, but yeah, I mean, this is, it's difficult. And this is where, right we, from the start of the consultation, where we see a couple like we have to make sure they have one shared vision or goal for each other, but they're solvable and not solvable problems, like if you want kids or you don't problem solve and expect that that's going to shift, and so there's just this level of reality that we get couples into, like if there's not even that like a goal that you can say, like we can't see you, like that, that like no work could be done here. But I mean, for us people coming in right, it's like it's either this or we're done. There is so many shared values that they just forgot. But if there are those non-solvables, like we've had couples like right, where maybe they got together oh, I'm thinking of this one. They got together. They both didn't want children.

Tarah Kerwin: 47:31

And then there was this really horrible accident that happened where one almost passed away and she realized like oh, I really want children now and he's like. And she realized like, oh, I really want children now and he's like. No, like, how did this change? Like well, yeah, a near death accident, like, and unfortunately, like, they ended up separating cause she and right, she has a family now and children and remarried, but like it wouldn't change and she was just hoping, well, he'll just see one day, like that kids are important, or I'll just get pregnant, and then we'll just like get trapped in this and that kids are important, or I'll just get pregnant, and then we'll just like get trapped in this and it's like no Right. So they came and they did like a amical separation within the couple's yield because there was no changing each other's mind and we couldn't help of the experience that happened there. But things change and you just have to have very adult, realistic conversations because if there's not shared values, it's not happening.

Philip Pape: 48:22

Okay.

Tarah Kerwin: 48:22

So, I know, that's very direct.

Philip Pape: 48:24

No, no, no, it's some. Some of this is going to be a little on the darker, sadder side, because that's reality and it happens. Um, it's funny. I have a client who was her big win was finally finishing her separation with her, with her, with her ex, and it allowed her to focus on herself like never before and for her.

Tarah Kerwin: 48:42

That's a positive.

Philip Pape: 48:42

So I mean, sometimes I have, but we're not here to talk about breaking people up. I just wanted to understand where the lines are. And I guess the other thing is physically we have impacts on our bodies and our energy levels and stuff. When we're going through some of this, when we're training or dieting or whatever, when that changes, how do you help couples maintain that intimacy physical, emotional, whatever when, like, the energy is tanking, you know? That's another thing that comes to mind.

EJ Kerwin: 49:13

I mean, I think I would put it in the context of a relationship being longitudinal, like, right that this is going to be, you're going to be with your partner for years, decades, right, and you know, especially when it comes to, I think, what you're talking about around, like you know, a, a, a period of time, you know, a training period of time is being able to keep it into perspective and be like, okay, like you know, my partner needs this support, or I need to be patient for this amount of time, um, but it's going to pass. You know, and that's like a big thing we talked to couples about. You know, cause there is like sort of for some and imply, you know, an implied agreement, but for some it's explicit, it's like in in the vows they take, in the good times, the bad right, and that, like, there are going to be times where your partners might go through a really difficult period of time. There will be, and that could be a month, it could be a year, it could be a couple of years, right, and what is your, what is your vow? You know, what is the promise that you've made to your partner, and so if your partner goes through, like you know they go through, you know, like an injury or or you know, a really big health crisis, right, like, is there a limit? Like, oh, they can only be sick for three months and then then I'm out, you know.

EJ Kerwin: 50:37

So I would bring it sort of into that context of like, okay, let's, first of all, let's talk about it. Your partner, you know, sort of needs your support in doing this. There is going to be this negative, maybe, effect that you're going to have to deal with, but is that okay and can you trust that it will pass, that you guys will manage it, that you'll have open-hearted, kind conversations about it and that, and that eventually you know you you'll have open-hearted, kind conversations about it and that eventually you know you'll move through it together. Because that's the partner I want. You know, I want the partner that trusts I'll be there for her no matter what she goes through, and that she'll be there for me no matter what I go through.

Philip Pape: 51:16

I love that you mentioned vows and longitudinal thinking here, because that's the essence of sustainability, right Having the thought that things aren't always going to be exactly the same and the energy levels change and our needs change from one to the other. Like you said, if you get it, I mean my wife stuck with me, not stuck with me. I know she'd stick with me, but I had several surgeries over the past few years where you know I was like um needed a little more attention for a little bit. After that she was just amazing. But uh, yeah, we're going to go through those times. It's also another reason. So listen up, listeners. I just recently did a podcast episode about why you don't want to diet very often and you want to actually gain muscle and gain weight to allow you to live in that high energy state. So, when it comes to relationships and being there for the other person, just remember the least you can have to diet, the better, right, yeah?

EJ Kerwin: 52:04

Well, I mean, I can just think of like so last. So both Tara and I have, uh, enjoyed running over the years. She did. Eventually I caught the running bug, like you know, a year or two after we got together and I just, I mean, I loved it. It was just like a really neat high I'd never experienced, and seeing how it affected my body was kind of cool. And so we had fallen off the train of running and we'd been just lifting for a while. And last year we were like, let's do the San Diego marathon, let's do that, like that'll be fun to train. And we attempted to train the way we train years ago and we both got injured literally within like six weeks.

Tarah Kerwin: 52:46

We did run the 5k we went.

EJ Kerwin: 52:47

we went from like. We went from, like you know, running one to two miles to running like 12, 13, in like a four-week period, which which our bodies are not equipped to do anymore like we have to have a have to have a much less steep hill, but we got injured and we both struggled. We both struggled with that. We both sort of like it bummed us out. We could have still trained in certain ways and we just didn't. Our nutrition went offline and so it sucked, but we had, we sort of adapted our way through it. We made a compromise, we just ran the 5k instead. And now we're, a year later, looking at it and being like okay, like maybe let's do that goal again, but let's yeah, let's maybe just do the half and let's really intentionally train this time, instead of trying to train like a like you know, like somebody younger than than than who I am.

Tarah Kerwin: 53:44

Be realistic of where our bodies are right now.

Philip Pape: 53:47

Yes, yes, that makes sense. That makes sense. All right, as we wrap up in time, I hope you guys have a little time for a couple of rapid fire questions here I'm looking for some short, short answers, whatever comes to mind, and maybe each of you can give an answer however you want to do it sure might be hard for terry.

EJ Kerwin: 54:03

Yeah, it's fine short answer short all right.

Philip Pape: 54:07

So the first one is what's one thing everyone listening who's in a relationship should start doing tomorrow that they're not doing today checking in every single day about how they're feeling and a shared like intention or goal for your relationship.

Tarah Kerwin: 54:22

That day it takes five minutes. I'm feeling this, this and this. My intention is to like send you some cute texts today and then we end it with a positive relationship statement, Like we can handle this shit together, whatever it might be. Right now it's the holidays, are like we got this.

Philip Pape: 54:37

Nice.

Tarah Kerwin: 54:38

It takes five minutes. You're on the same page, okay.

EJ Kerwin: 54:40

Go. I like that one. I'll just just say yes on that, Okay.

Philip Pape: 54:45

Okay, all right. If you go, wave a magic wand and make every couple understand one thing about balancing their fitness with their relationship, what would it be?

EJ Kerwin: 54:55

Things are going to change. Things are going to change Like, like your, the pattern of your life are going to is going to change. Your physical body is going to change. That you have to be adaptable and know just because one thing is working doesn't mean that same thing is going to continue to work for for a long time. Be adaptable and I can handle this and I can be flexible. Yeah, good.

Tarah Kerwin: 55:17

I love flexibility. We preach that all the time, so I love that this and I can be flexible, yeah.

Philip Pape: 55:21

Good, I love flexibility. We preach that all the time, so I love that. The last one is what's the most surprising thing you each have learned about each other this year?

Tarah Kerwin: 55:30

Oh, my goodness. Oh, I actually just learned it on our podcast. We recorded this morning that when I touch EJ's face with my two hands and give him a kiss, I'm the only person that's ever done it in his whole life, and it makes them feel very loved. That's sweet, like I'm going to do that more now. I had no clue.

EJ Kerwin: 55:47

Well, and and I can uh go directly at fitness with this is that I didn't realize until she told me early on the year that when, when I sense her frustration with me not being as tuned into my nutrition, it's not because she's judging me, it's because she just doesn't feel supported then in her nutritional goals. I always felt judged it was that she just doesn't. She needs help. She needs help, and when I'm being steady, it's easier for her to be steady.

Philip Pape: 56:20

Awesome. I want the listeners to know that even an experienced relationship, couple license and everything with a podcast is still always going to be learning about each other, right?

EJ Kerwin: 56:28

That's our whole gig right there.

Tarah Kerwin: 56:30

This is why people love us.

EJ Kerwin: 56:31

We're in it with you.

Philip Pape: 56:32

We're in perfect, all right, cool. Is there anything you wish I had asked that we didn't cover today, in this realm that you're like? Ah, we really wanted to address that one thing, anything you can think of.

Tarah Kerwin: 56:43

I feel like this was so great that we touched on so many different avenues and aspects of relationship and wellness. So, no, not, not for me.

EJ Kerwin: 56:50

Yeah, I mean, I think like if we were ever to go deeper, I think around like physical intimacy, I think that that's. That's a big thing and sort of like people they're changing bodies as they age, their fitness goals being in alignment, out of alignment, like how that affects their sexual intimacy, I think is something that could be explored deeper that's a good one.

Philip Pape: 57:13

That's a good one. Yeah, you're right. That's like a whole other conversation, so I love it All right we'll leave it at that. I do want listeners to know how to get ahold of you guys. If it's not obvious, from if you're watching the video, you can see the name of their podcast, of course, Relationship Renovation Podcast. Where do you want folks to find you?

EJ Kerwin: 57:28

I mean, the easiest thing to do is just at Relationship Renovation. Type it into Google, You'll come to our website. We have in-office home programs. We're launching some coaching programs next year, you know just relationship renovation will bring you right to us All right.

Philip Pape: 57:45

Awesome. This has been a pleasure. I hope the listeners got a lot from this. Again, it's we've never talked about this in this great detail, and yet it's one of the biggest roadblocks, challenges, but also opportunities to move forward when it comes to physical, mental health. So thank you so much, tara and EJ, for coming on the show.

Tarah Kerwin: 58:02

And we feel grateful to be your first yes.

Philip Pape: 58:06

I'm not a virgin anymore. No, sir, all right, thanks, guys. Thanks for coming on, absolutely Bye-bye.

The 7 Types of Rest and Recovery for Maximum Muscle Gain (Work-Rest Cycle) | Ep 273

Download the Stress Solution Guide now with more detailed strategies to reduce stress (and improve fat loss and muscle gain)

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Are you tired despite getting enough sleep? Are your workouts feeling like a grind?

Learn how the engineering concept of the Work-Rest Cycle combines with the 7 types of rest can be used to maximize your muscle growth and recovery.

Research from Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith reveals why sleep alone isn't enough, and how implementing all 7 types of rest can accelerate your results.

Main Takeaways:

• Why proper maintenance is crucial for optimal performance

• The 7 types of rest: physical, mental, sensory, creative, emotional, social, and spiritual

• How implementing all 7 types of rest can improve results more than additional training or food

Today you'll learn about:

00:58 Why sleep alone isn't enough for complete recovery
02:22 The Work-Rest Cycle
03:15 The 7 types of rest
11:42 How to implement all 7 types of rest
15:16 Using metrics to track recovery effectiveness
17:01 Why rest might be more important than training
18:38 Recap of the 7 types of rest

Episode Resources:

• Join the Physique University

Mastering the 7 Types of Rest for Ultimate Recovery

When it comes to building muscle and maximizing recovery, most people focus on just two things: sleep and taking days off from the gym. But what if I told you that’s only scratching the surface? According to research, your body needs seven distinct types of rest to recover fully, grow stronger, and reach your physique goals. Today, we’re diving into these seven types, framed through an engineering concept called the Work-Rest Cycle, to help you build a smarter recovery system.

1. Physical Rest

This is the most obvious form of rest and includes both passive and active recovery:

• Passive Rest: Sleep, naps, and complete relaxation.

• Active Rest: Light movement such as walking or mobility exercises on rest days.

Studies in the Journal of Applied Physiology show proper sleep increases muscle protein synthesis by up to 60%, while active recovery can reduce muscle damage markers by 40%. Think of physical rest as maintenance for your body’s machinery—sometimes you need to shut it down completely, and other times, keep it running lightly to prevent rust.

2. Mental Rest

Mental fatigue impacts your workouts and overall performance. Studies published in Frontiers in Psychology reveal that mental fatigue reduces time to exhaustion by 15% and impairs decision-making during exercise. Even a brief mental rest, such as a one-minute breathing exercise, can improve cognitive performance by 26%. If you feel scattered or unfocused during your workouts, chances are you need more mental rest.

3. Sensory Rest

Constant stimulation from screens, noise, and artificial light overwhelms your senses. Research in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism shows that excessive sensory input increases cortisol by up to 50%, which directly impacts muscle growth and fat storage. Reducing screen time by just two hours a day can lower cortisol levels by 20% and improve sleep quality by 35%.

4. Creative Rest

This type of rest isn’t just for artists; it’s about giving your brain the freedom to explore new ideas and perspectives. Studies in Behavioral Sciences show creative activities increase brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), a protein crucial for learning and adaptation. For fitness, this means better movement patterns, motivation, and adherence. Even adding variety to your exercise routine can stimulate neuromuscular efficiency and improve results.

5. Emotional Rest

Unprocessed emotions can act like a pressure gauge ready to burst. Research in Psycho-Neuroendocrinology shows that emotional stress increases cortisol by up to 37% and decreases testosterone by 10-15%, directly impacting muscle growth and recovery. Practices like journaling or talking to a coach can help you release pent-up emotions and restore balance.

6. Social Rest

Positive social interactions can enhance your recovery. According to Behavioral Medicine, they boost muscle protein synthesis by 25% while reducing inflammatory markers. Whether you’re an extrovert or introvert, balancing energizing and draining social activities is key to optimizing your recovery system.

7. Spiritual Rest

Spiritual rest involves connecting to something larger than yourself, whether that’s religion, purpose, or long-term goals. Finding meaning in your fitness journey helps maintain motivation and consistency. Think of it as your body’s mission statement, guiding your actions and keeping you aligned.

Building Your Recovery System

To implement these seven types of rest, start by auditing your recovery patterns:

• Identify your biggest rest deficits.

• Create a recovery schedule that addresses these gaps strategically without adding unnecessary stress.

For example:

• Combine sensory and mental rest by walking outdoors without headphones.

• Pair emotional and spiritual rest by journaling about your deeper fitness motivations.

Tie these strategies to measurable metrics like workout performance, sleep quality, or stress levels. This data-driven approach ensures you’re continuously fine-tuning your recovery system.

Recap: The Seven Types of Rest

1. Physical: Sleep and active recovery.

2. Mental: Clearing mental fatigue.

3. Sensory: Reducing overstimulation.

4. Creative: Adding variety and inspiration.

5. Emotional: Processing feelings and reducing stress.

6. Social: Balancing relationships.

7. Spiritual: Finding purpose and motivation.

When you optimize your recovery across all seven types, you’ll amplify your results far more than just pushing harder in the gym. Proper rest isn’t about doing less—it’s about doing the right things to keep your body running like a well-maintained machine.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

If you're always tired despite getting enough sleep, or maybe your workouts feel like a grind and you're not getting the results you want, maybe there's something missing when it comes to your recovery. Most people get this completely wrong. They oversimplify recovery as just sleeping more or taking days off from the gym. But research shows that your body actually needs up to seven distinct types of rest to maximize your recovery, your muscle growth, to achieve the physique you want. So today, using an engineering framework called the Work-Rest Cycle, we're going to talk about exactly what these are and how to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:58

I'm your host, philip Pape. Now you know that feeling when you get a full eight hours of sleep but you still wake up exhausted. Now you know that feeling when you get a full eight hours of sleep but you still wake up exhausted. Or when you take a rest day but your next workout feels heavier than ever. There's a reason for that. Sleep and physical rest are just two pieces of a larger system that your body needs to recover and grow. How the engineering concept of the work-rest cycle combines with research on seven essential types of rest to create your complete recovery system. And before we get into it.

Philip Pape: 1:32

I want to share something that will help you implement an improved approach to stress. It is an expanded version of my stress solution guide. So if you've ever downloaded this before, it was a pretty small guide based on some ideas that we had talked about on the previous episode, but I've expanded it with probably three or four extra pages of very detailed strategies for managing stress. So to get your free copy of that, just click the link in the show notes. You could always go to witsandweightscom slash free. Again. This is the expanded stress solution guide at witsandweightscom slash free or the link in the show notes. All right, in engineering because today we like to talk about engineering frameworks and applying them to your body, to your life In engineering we use something called the work rest cycle to maximize productivity while presenting or preventing system failure.

Philip Pape: 2:22

So I want you to think about a manufacturing line that's always running 24-7, producing widgets Doesn't matter what kind of widgets and if you let it keep running forever, if you never have scheduled maintenance periods, machines are going to break down and when that happens, efficiency is going to drop and eventually the whole system is going to fail. Your body operates on the same principle. It is a complex machine. It's not like a complex machine. It is a complex machine. It's not like a complex machine. It is one and it needs multiple forms of maintenance to perform at its peak. And the problem is that most people focus on just one or two types of maintenance and ignore the others, and that's like only changing a machine's oil while ignoring all the other aspects of managing the machine. It's kind of like with your car, like a lot of us we change, we get gas, we fill up the tank, but then we neglect a lot of the other things and then, before you know it, we've got a thousand dollar bill at the auto mechanic. Eventually, something's going to break, is the point here.

Philip Pape: 3:15

And this is where Dr Sondra Dalton-Smith comes into play. She is a researcher who identified seven distinct types of rest. I learned about her with a recent guest on the show, allie Shapiro. She mentioned her on the show the seven types of rest and I looked into it and I said you know, I need to do a podcast on this because I think this is a great way to frame your overall recovery system and each one of them can play a vital role in your fitness and I think we're neglecting a lot of them, myself included. So I think you're going to get a lot out of this. So here we go the seven types of rest and how they relate to you and your recovery.

Philip Pape: 3:51

First is physical. This is probably the most obvious that we are familiar with. This, yes, includes sleep, but not just sleep. We need both passive physical rest, like sleep and complete relaxation and naps, but also active physical rest. Like you know, light movement, walking, that kind of recovery you do on your rest day, but you're awake and doing something. So studies in the Journal of Applied Physiology have shown that proper sleep increases muscle protein synthesis by up to 60%. Research in sports medicine shows active recovery between training sessions can reduce muscle damage markers by 40%. So sleep and active recovery it's kind of like with a machine which needs to be shut down occasionally and needs some light operational periods while it's running. Same thing your body needs both forms to optimize recovery.

Philip Pape: 4:43

The second type of rest is mental rest. Think of this like rebooting an overloaded computer. You know when your computer starts to crash and Chrome gets really slow and you're like what's going on, I'm just going to reboot it. That usually solves everything. Well, think of your body like that as well. You kind of get this buildup of mental stress. Research in Frontiers in Psychology shows that mental fatigue significantly impairs physical performance and it reduces time to exhaustion by up to 15% and impairs decision-making during exercise. So we know mental fatigue is not just about in the brain. It translates to your physical and can reduce your performance in the gym. It affects your workout focus, your form. You're literally just like running on fumes, right, mental fumes, and you you kind of know when you get to this point, but sometimes you may not realize it because it's that just at just below that, just above that level. But you need more mental rest than that and studies show that even brief mental rest breaks, even a minute of breathing and taking a break and just stopping Again, this was on let's see episode with Molly McNamee recently. She talked about taking 30 second breaks between meetings or tasks. Even just the 60 seconds of conscious breathing can improve cognitive performance by 26%. So mental rest is incredibly important.

Philip Pape: 6:05

Third, we have sensory rest, now your body's sensory systems. This is more than just the physical, like the overall sleep and rest that we need. In that sense, these are the actually your senses, right, your eyes, your ears and so on. They can get overwhelmed, right? Just like on any machine, you could get overwhelmed by constant input from screens, from noise, from artificial light. Research in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism shows that excessive sensory stimulation increases cortisol by up to 50% above baseline. And we know about cortisol, don't we? It directly impacts everything Muscle growth, fat storage, you name it. A 2023 study found that even two hours of screen time reduction per day can lower cortisol levels by 20% and improve sleep quality by 35%. So when we talk sensory rest, oftentimes we're talking about sleep quality, and yes, these all tie together, but I'd like you to think about it as its own form of rest. How do we reduce the sensory overwhelm? And, by the way, I'm going to get to strategies for all of these, but I really wanted to lay them out first and get you thinking about why these are important.

Philip Pape: 7:15

The fourth type of rest is creative rest. Now, in engineering terms, this is like giving your system an upgrade right? A new algorithm, new input, new inspiration, right, a new feature. Research in behavioral sciences shows that creative activities reduce cortisol levels and increase BDNF, that's brain-derived neurotrophic factor, and that is a protein that is crucial for learning and adaptation. Amazing, right. So creative activities, we know, increase that. And for fitness this means better movement patterns, increased training motivation, which means increased adherence and consistency.

Philip Pape: 7:57

Studies show that, for example, just varying your exercise selection this is an argument for variety, right? Argument for variety here. It can improve things like muscle activation and your neuromuscular activity efficiency significantly, compared to something that is repetitive over and over and over again and we kind of know this intuitively. I do argue for some level of variety. I'm I'm, I'm okay or I'm a big fan of a basic but boring approach when you first start training just to get super strong, super fast. But then I think there needs to be a little variety in there, for a variety of reasons. Um, muscle activation is just just one of them. There's a study that I found that linked those together. But there's a lot of other reasons having to do with what might be called creative rest.

Philip Pape: 8:43

The fifth type of rest is emotional rest. Think of emotions. Like your pressure gauges, they need regular release of the emotions to prevent system overload. I never want you to hold your emotions back. We need to express them, we feel them. We can't help it. It's a matter of how we cope with them and research in psycho neuroendocrinology shows that emotional stress increases cortisol by up to 30% or 37% and decreases testosterone by 10 to 15% and that, of of course, directly impacts muscle growth and recovery. And then, conversely, we know that emotional regulation techniques can reduce stress-induced hormonal disruption.

Philip Pape: 9:26

The sixth type of rest is social rest. So, just like collaborative systems you know, like think of teamwork or teams working together, they need breaks between intensive, all out brainstorming, right? You ever been in a team in a meeting? You can't just go on and on and on. You're going to eventually burn out. You need a balance, uh, so, similarly, you need to balance socially draining versus energizing interactions in everything you do. Whether you are more of a loner type or more of a social type, we all need relaxation and periodization between being with people and not being with people. Research in the Journal of Behavioral Medicine shows that positive social interactions muscle protein synthesis by up to 25% and increase inflammatory markers. And you notice I'm throwing you a lot of numbers and research and everything. I wanted to make sure this one tied into some of the findings we actually see associated with these types of rest. There's plenty of science behind it and a lot of it is somewhat intuitive, but it's good to understand these.

Philip Pape: 10:38

Finally, number seven the seventh type of rest is spiritual rest, and in engineering, this is like having a clear mission, operational purpose, what I'll call a user story or a requirement for your machine. Now, that's kind of a stretch for an analogy. So let's talk about what this means for you. Spiritual rest means connecting to something larger than yourself. That can mean a lot of things to people. It's not just religion or spirituality per se. It could be finding deeper meaning, finding purpose, finding why you are doing this in the first place on the long arc of life, and this maintains your long-term motivation, your long-term consistency, versus just having short-term reasons for doing this. So, if we're gonna take all these seven types of rest, how do we create a practical system for implementing them? Now, I recently went over these in my group coaching program in Physique University. We had one of our coaching calls. I went through specific actions for each one that people could take to apply to them.

Philip Pape: 11:42

But I'm just going to ask you, without without just listing a laundry list of things, start by auditing your current recovery patterns. Like, think about the seven types of rest we just talked about. You can go back and reference them. What are your biggest rest deficits? Right, most people are severely lacking in at least one or two, if not three, of these seven areas, so identify the ones that need the most attention, and then I want you to have a recovery schedule that hits all of these. Now, some of the things are going to be things you're already doing and some will be to address the one or two that you identified as the biggest low-hanging fruit, and this doesn't mean adding more to your day and doing more. Please don't take it as that, because that is going to affect your stress and rest in the most ironic way. This means being strategic and efficient, using stacking, combining things and so on.

Philip Pape: 12:45

For example, you can combine sensory and mental rest by doing your relaxing thing that you like to do. Let's say it's walking outside without listening to a podcast or listening to music. Now you're going to say wait a minute, philip. Haven't you talked about habit stacking, where you can walk or listen to a podcast? Yes. However, if you're constantly stimulated, if when you're indoors, you're always on a screen or have something in your ears, and then you go for a walk and you still have something in your ears, that could be a problem and you could be overloaded and you don't have sensory rest. Instead, take advantage of the fact you're outside to look at the sky, the clouds, the birds, the trees, the animals, other people. Just be with your thoughts and get the sensory rest along with the mental rest. And, by the way, you're probably also getting a form of physical rest in recovery. Getting a form of physical rest and recovery all three just by going for a walk out in nature.

Philip Pape: 13:47

You can stack emotional rest and spiritual rest by taking a moment to write down or journal or think about your deeper fitness motivations. If you haven't done that in a while, right, that's tied to your spiritual rest, but it's also emotional because it lets you get out on paper what you're thinking and feeling. This is where, when you're working with a coach, you can be super helpful when they're prompting you, when they're asking questions from a objective, unbiased sense. So I'll give you an example of this. Many of you, you probably share things with your loved ones or family or friends, even someone who's very supportive, and you tell them hey, I'm tracking my food or I'm lifting weights or I'm focusing. If they're super supportive, they're going to be positive, hopefully, about it. They're not going to question you, they're not going to sabotage you, and they're going to say, hey, that's awesome. And if you've had a bad day and you say this terrible thing happened, they might say, oh, that sucks.

Philip Pape: 14:32

Now, some of us need that, but in some cases, that may not give you emotional rest because it didn't allow you to unburden the emotion in a full way, in a complete way. What I mean by that is a really good friend is going to empathize with you, but they're not necessarily going to help you process or move through it. Like, say, a therapist or even a coach, right? Or? Or someone in a community, like a Facebook community you're in who doesn't have a personal stake with you, but they still want to help you, and so they, they're listening, they allow you to vent, you can share the challenges you've had, and then, if you ask for help, they can say, okay, tell me more, what have you tried? What haven't you tried? Hey, maybe here's some things to try and you could unburden those emotions in that way, right?

Philip Pape: 15:16

So really get creative about each of these types of rest, and then you could, of course, make this very objective by tying that to your metrics. To make this very objective by tying that to your metrics, to your biofeedback. By the way, we just did an episode not long ago called the 6-10 biofeedback model, where we talk about different metrics. So, whether it's your workout performance which translates into, say, energy, recovery, motivation, right, all of that stuff, all of those metrics, and of course, the direct ones like sleep, stress and all the things you like to measure with your rings and your watches and everything which I do as well, you can then get that as feedback and see what's working and what's not, and then you can adjust your recovery schedule, your rest ratios, so to speak, based on these indicators. And I have a lot of ideas where those came from. Again, I didn't want today's episode to be a laundry list and I have a lot of ideas where those came from. Again, I didn't want today's episode to be a laundry list.

Philip Pape: 16:21

A few other things that come to mind would be if you normally are listening to music while working out try not listening to music, just silently work out. Think about a lot of this is that rest and recovery is probably going to build more muscle for you than your training and your food. And that might sound a little bit sacrilegious from coming from me. I say it, however, because a lot of you you've you've started to dial in your training. Your training three, four or five days a week. You started to dial in your food. You know, maybe you're tracking, you're kind of understanding a little bit how macros work and energy balance, and there's still something a little bit holding you back or maybe the progress isn't as much as you'd like.

Philip Pape: 17:01

I bet there's a lot of opportunity with rest and recovery. That's the one that people neglect so often, and sometimes we throw up our hands and we say you know, I just don't have the mental capability here, I don't have my life doesn't allow for it, because I don't have enough time. There's a lot of excuses we make. Let's just be honest, and so I want you to take it at a bite-sized, micro level. Pick one of the seven types of rest right and focus on it, because you want to be a well-aimed machine, well-maintained machine. A well-maintained machine Think of a car that you actually take into the shop regularly. You don't have to worry about it, like it just runs and runs and runs, just fine.

Philip Pape: 17:39

But one that gets neglected is constantly going to have problems, and all those problems which you could translate to being injuries or sicknesses, or you're way too tired or whatever burnout. They actually stack on top of each other to the point where you just never get in a rhythm with your routine. But if you take the time now to actually think about getting your body rest across all seven areas, that is going to amplify your results far more than pushing harder on any single dimension. Right, and this is why some people get better results doing less, like training three days a week instead of four or five, because maybe they're resting more and then they're getting rest across all the dimensions and and and right. And so if I'm going to recap real quick the seven types of rest which, again, I encourage going back and listening through the episode for the details Number one, physical.

Philip Pape: 18:38

Number two, mental. Number three, sensory. Number four, creative. Number five, emotional. Number six, social. And number seven, spiritual.

Philip Pape: 18:43

All right, it's a pretty cool concept, this whole idea of work rest, um, where we don't pay attention to the rest enough. Let's be honest. And if you, by the way, if you want to see the full uh workshop that we did, where we went over all the details and gave you specifics for each, you could join physique university Anytime. Go to wandweightscom slash physique and you'll learn about everything provided there. But part of that is the regular coaching calls where we cover topics like this in detail and give you specific actions and frameworks to apply them. All right, I mentioned before, if you want to have a little bit more help with managing stress and some strategies, you can download my expanded stress solution guide. Go to witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using those wits, lifting those weights, and remember that proper rest is much more than just sleep. It's strategic recovery across all seven types of rest we talked about today. This is Philip Hape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. Talk to you next time.

The WORST Weight Loss Diet to Lose 20 Pounds or More | Ep 272

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Are crash diets secretly sabotaging your fat loss efforts? Can eating less ever be too much? What if the key to lasting results is a completely different approach?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives deep into the science of fat loss to reveal why the most common methods of rapid weight loss often fail and how they can even harm your long-term goals.

Discover the red flags of unsustainable diets, why most of them fail, and how to design a personalized, sustainable fat loss strategy that works for your unique needs and lifestyle. Philip breaks it all down into actionable insights to help you lose fat, build muscle, and feel amazing without falling into the crash diet trap.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:37 Red flags to spot an unsustainable diet
7:50 Why crash diets seem to make perfect sense
9:31 Science of how your body adapts to aggresive calorie cutting
12:38 Five specific ways that crash dieting makes sustainable fat loss harder
19:18 Three key principles for sustainable fat loss
22:48 Building a good system that works for you
24:22 Why a moderate approach beats crash dieting every time
26:23 Outro

Episode resources:

• 10 Intermittent Fasting Myths That Need to Die

• 6 Ways to Lose Fat in 2025 (Using Science-Based Methods)
  

The Worst Diet for Losing 20 Pounds (and What to Do Instead)

When faced with the goal of losing 20 pounds or more, many people turn to crash diets, believing that rapid calorie cuts or eliminating entire food groups will lead to faster results. The logic seems simple: eat less, lose more. But this oversimplification ignores the complexity of human physiology and often leads to poor outcomes.

Crash diets—those that drastically cut calories or promise extreme results—trigger your body’s survival mechanisms. This includes metabolic adaptation, muscle loss, and rebound weight gain. Instead of delivering sustainable results, these diets create a cycle of frustration, burnout, and eventual weight regain.

Why Crash Diets Seem Logical (But Aren’t)

The premise of crash dieting is rooted in the calorie deficit equation: if reducing calories by 500 per day results in 1 pound of fat loss per week, then cutting 1,000 or more must be even better, right? Not so fast. This linear approach fails to account for the body’s sophisticated adaptations.

When calories are cut too aggressively:

• Metabolism slows down. Your basal metabolic rate (BMR) drops beyond what would be expected from weight loss alone, sometimes by 200–300 calories within weeks.

• Movement decreases. Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) declines, meaning you unconsciously move less, further reducing calorie burn.

• Exercise becomes less effective. The calories burned during workouts decrease as your body becomes more efficient.

• Hunger hormones spike. Leptin levels drop, while ghrelin increases, making you hungrier and hyper-focused on food.

Five Ways Crash Diets Sabotage Fat Loss

1. Accelerated Muscle Loss
   Crash diets often result in losing 40–50% of weight from muscle mass, particularly when protein intake and resistance training are neglected. This loss not only slows your metabolism but also diminishes your overall strength and body composition.

2. Increased Hunger and Cravings
   The hormonal shifts from aggressive dieting amplify hunger and cravings, making it nearly impossible to stick to the diet. Research shows that extreme calorie cuts can lead to binge-eating behaviors, further derailing progress.

3. Compromised Training Performance
   Low energy levels from extreme deficits mean weaker workouts, less intensity, and fewer calories burned during exercise. This compromises your ability to preserve muscle and maintain progress.

4. Psychological Burnout
   Crash diets rely on willpower, which is a finite resource. The constant mental battle to stay on track leads to emotional exhaustion, making these diets unsustainable in the long run.

5. Rebound Weight Gain
   Studies reveal that 80–95% of crash dieters regain the lost weight within 1–5 years. Worse, the regained weight often consists of a higher percentage of fat, leaving you in a worse metabolic state than before.

What Works Instead: A Sustainable Fat Loss Approach

Crash diets fail because they fight against your body’s natural processes. Instead, adopt these evidence-based principles for lasting fat loss:

1. Create a Moderate Calorie Deficit
   Aim for a 0.5–0.75% body weight loss per week, which minimizes metabolic adaptation and hunger. A moderate deficit provides enough energy to fuel your workouts and daily activities while ensuring fat loss.

2. Preserve Muscle with Protein and Strength Training
   Prioritize resistance training and a high-protein diet. These habits preserve lean muscle, maintain metabolic rate, and improve body composition as you lose fat.

3. Plan Diet Breaks and Recovery Periods
   Incorporate planned breaks at maintenance calories to reduce psychological fatigue and maintain consistency. These breaks help you manage social events, holidays, and life changes without feeling restricted.

Why Systems Beat Diets

Think of your fat loss approach as a system, not a diet. A successful system is:

• Efficient: Minimizes wasted effort while maximizing results.

• Reliable: Produces consistent outcomes you can depend on.

• Sustainable: Fits into your lifestyle and allows for flexibility.

• Adaptable: Adjusts to changing circumstances, such as stress, travel, or holidays.

The worst weight loss diet is the one that sets you up for failure by undermining your body’s natural processes and your psychological well-being. Instead of chasing rapid results, focus on building a sustainable system that prioritizes fat loss, muscle preservation, and metabolic health.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

When you decide to lose 20 pounds or more, what is the first thing that you typically do? If you're like most people, you probably jump straight to cutting calories, trying intermittent fasting, cutting food groups like carbs, or following some quick-fix diet something unique, something new that promises rapid results in maybe as little as a few weeks, and it seems to make perfect sense. Eat way less food, lose way more weight right. But what if the most common approach to losing those 20 plus pounds, the one that feels the most logical and that everyone seems to try first and say is working for them is actually setting you up for failure? Today, I'm going to show you why the most popular weight loss method might be sabotaging your results and, more importantly, what the science says you should do instead.

Philip Pape: 0:51

The allure of rapid weight loss is everywhere. You see before and after photos all over the place claiming that someone dropped 30 pounds in 30 days. You see influencers and hear podcasters recommend extended fasting or detoxes or eliminating food groups to slim down, and the message seems clear If you want dramatic results, you've got to go for dramatic measures. But what if those common approaches to dieting in fact, most of the named diets out there are all really just crash diets that make things worse in the end. And what if there was a more intelligent way to lose substantial amounts of fat while preserving muscle and maintaining long-term metabolic health? Today, we are breaking down the science of why most diets fail, what actually happens in your body when you cut calories too aggressively, and how to approach fat loss in a way that creates lasting results, even when you do have 20, 30, or 40 or more pounds to lose. Now, before we get into it, if you are tired of the cycle of aggressive dieting followed by rebound weight gain, I do offer a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment, which is a call without a sales pitch, where we get on Zoom for 15 minutes and identify what's been holding you back. We create a simple, science-based plan usually two or three steps that works with your body, based on what I've learned about you in our conversation. And that's it. You go along your way with a little more clarity and some action. All you got to do is book your free call using the link in the show notes and hopefully I'll be talking to you soon.

Philip Pape: 2:25

All right, First let us define exactly what we mean by aggressive calorie restriction or crash dieting, because when I titled this episode the Worst Diet. The irony there is that I would never recommend a best diet. In other words, the best diet is going to be the one that is most personalized to your needs and your level of flexibility and rigidity, and that's the point. And so when I talk about a worst diet, I'm also not talking about a single diet. I'm talking about an overall philosophy or approach that the vast majority of people use, probably 95% or more, because that's the amount of people that fail to maintain the results. Therefore, it's not working. It's not working. So if you tell me, no, keto worked for me, I'm going to ask you well, are you still doing it and is it still working for you? And if you say yes and yes, and I feel great and it's everything that promised and more then awesome, guess what? That is the diet that works for you, but the vast majority of people it's not the case. So what do we mean by these approaches? All right, I'm going to give you some criteria.

Philip Pape: 3:29

These are the red flags. If any diet has these, then it's a red flag and probably not going to work. The first one is just that they're asking you to cut calories to some extremely low, usually arbitrary level. If I were to give a number on that, I would say for women that's well below 1,200 calories. For men it's well below 1,500. Understanding that, it is highly personal. If I have a client who weighs only 100 pounds or 110, she's a very petite female, she might be dieting at 1,000 and it feels just fine, with no hunger and no metabolic issues. But she's a lot smaller. Her body doesn't need nearly as much energy coming in, so it's not as restrictive for her. Similarly, with a male, smaller in stature, maybe lower in weight, he might find that 1,400 or 1,500 calories is fine for dieting. Others, myself included, anything below 1,800 feels very restrictive. So a diet that tells you you've got to eat this many calories like Optivia I think it's 800 calories Ridiculous. That is a huge red flag there.

Philip Pape: 4:28

The second one is that it promises an outcome like a certain amount of weight loss in a certain amount of time. That is unsustainable. So usually that's well more than two pounds per week. And again it depends on your body mass, right? A 300 pound person losing two pounds a week, that's actually totally reasonable. A hundred pound person losing two pounds a week? That would be highly concerning. So I like that as just a general average, but usually they're promising something that just sounds good enough to be great for marketing, right? I lost this many pounds in this many weeks and it just sounds almost too good to be true, but not quite, but it's probably too aggressive.

Philip Pape: 5:09

The next red flag is that they're telling you to cut foods out, and so this is the red flag that, honestly, the vast majority of diets pin themselves on Food groups like carbohydrates or fat. Most diets don't tell you to cut protein thank goodness, although maybe we're going to see that next but even specific foods. They'll tell you to not eat these specific foods because they are insert fear-mongering adjective here inflammatory. It drives me crazy, right? So if anything tells you you can't eat something, that's a red flag. And then the next one is if it tells you you have to fast or switch up your meal timing to a certain feeding or fasting window, that is a red flag as well, because, again, there is no right or wrong feeding window. It's going to depend on what works for you across a variety of factors.

Philip Pape: 6:00

Fasting myths that have to die and that was the point of that episode was to talk about how none of the claims for fasting actually hold up in terms of them being superior to non-fasting. They may work for you, but they are not superior. And so that's the red flag is if it says you have to include certain fasting windows. And then the final red flag is that they claim to reset or boost or fix your metabolism, with the caveat that I probably have used adjectives similar to that, either inadvertently or in a colloquial way, because it's great for marketing, and I admit that I'm trying to do that less and less now. I don't think I use the word reset. I definitely don't use the word fix. I'm pretty clear that you cannot damage or harm your metabolism. The word boost, yeah, I've used that, but I usually use it in the context of the philosophy of boosting your metabolism through having more muscle mass or moving more, things like that. But a diet that says eat this way and it's going to boost your metabolism, that is the red flag, all right.

Philip Pape: 7:03

So I want to break down today's episode, which I have no idea how long it's going to be, but it's an important topic. I actually broke it down into four segments to make it more accessible. I'm first going to talk about why crash diets. They seem logical and pretty and neat, but they lead to poor outcomes for some very clear reasons, and once you understand them, you know to look for them when it comes to assessing diets. Number two is the science of how your body adapts to aggressive calorie cutting, because that is the root of a lot of the problems people have. Number three is I'm going to give you five specific ways that crash dieting makes fat loss specifically harder, and then, finally, the alternative based on evidence that works for you to give you the sustainable results that I think you're looking for and why you're listening to this podcast.

Philip Pape: 7:49

So let's start with why crash diets seem to make perfect sense, and the logic goes something like this we know that we need a calorie deficit to lose fat. All right, now, if you don't accept that to begin with, go back to Nutrition 101, energy balance, physics, thermodynamics, whatever you want to call it. It is an absolute fact that we need to eat less than we burn to lose weight on the scale and ultimately then to lose fat to lose meaningful fat. Can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time? Yes, and then we're getting into nuances, but in general, you need a calorie deficit. So if a 500 calorie deficit leads to losing one pound per week, then a thousand calorie deficit should mean losing two pounds, right, and then a 1500 calorie deficit, even faster. So just cut as many calories as you can, eat as little as you can, you're good, right?

Philip Pape: 8:39

The problem with this linear way of thinking is it ignores the fundamental complexity of human physiology. Your body is a very sophisticated system, and it adapts to protect you from what it perceives as a threat to survival, to homeostasis, to vibrancy and vitality. Right. When you cut calories too aggressively, you are triggering a bunch of sensors in your body. You're triggering a cascade of protective adaptations that are going to make fat loss way more difficult. And if you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, our bodies evolved during times when food was often scarce and the ability to adapt to reduce calorie intake by becoming more efficient with energy use was then crucial for survival. And so this isn't a flaw in our biology. It's a really amazing feature that helped keep our species alive.

Philip Pape: 9:31

And so this brings us to the science of how your body responds to aggressive calorie cutting, because when you suddenly drop your calories very low just, we're talking not a normal calorie deficit, but a very aggressive calorie deficit, which you will have from many diets. When you cut out a bunch of foods, you cut out a bunch of processed foods, cut out a bunch of carbs or even go on one of these weight loss drugs, for example, you're going to have potentially a huge drop in calories, right, because you don't have an appetite for the drugs in particular, but also because you cut out calorie dense foods. And so what happens? So let's say, you drop well more than 500 calories a day. First, your BMR, your basal metabolic rate that is, the energy you burn at rest begins to decrease beyond what would be expected from weight loss alone, because when you lose body mass, your BMR goes down.

Philip Pape: 10:20

But we have found that research from, in fact, dr Eric Trexler and others have been involved in this research shows that the adaptation that occurs can reduce your daily energy expenditure by 200 to 300 calories within weeks of starting an aggressive deficit, and I've seen, over time, clients' metabolisms drop by up to 600, 700, 800 calories over a long time. But they can happen quickly, especially when it's aggressive. And then, second, your NEAT, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis all the movements you do outside structured exercise naturally decreases. You fidget less, you take fewer steps, you generally move less throughout the day, right, and a lot of it's unconscious some of it's conscious, but a lot of it's unconscious and studies show that this can account for another two to 400 calorie reduction in your daily energy burn, right. Third, then you have your exercise activity thermogenesis how many calories you burn during your training, your workouts, your structured cardio all of that becomes less efficient. The same workout literally burns fewer calories as your body adapts to preserve energy. You actually become more efficient during fat loss. One study found participants burned 20 to 30% fewer calories doing the same exercise after 12 weeks of aggressive dieting. So it stacks on top of itself.

Philip Pape: 11:42

And then on top of all of this is that hormone levels shift to keep you alive, to preserve your energy, to preserve your existing precious fat storage, which is very important from an evolutionary standpoint. So this means decreased thyroid hormone production, reduced testosterone and growth hormone, increased cortisol, changes in hunger and satiety hormones like leptin and ghrelin, right. And these are not permanent. That is very important to understand. These adaptations are temporary. They're your body's natural, reversible response to what it perceives as a threat, and the problem is that crash dieting it's like a threat, it triggers them. It triggers these adaptations much more dramatically than a more moderate calorie deficit, even though any deficit's going to trigger them to some extent. Crash dieting triggers them much more, to the point where you're kind of past the precipice, and it makes it very difficult. So then this brings us to five specific ways that crash dieting makes sustainable fat loss harder.

Philip Pape: 12:45

We're sort of connecting these concepts of what happens to specifically when we're thinking of fat loss. All right, number one accelerated muscle loss. This is the whole purpose. When we're trying to lose fat but not lose muscle and improve our body composition, this is the whole purpose. When we're trying to lose fat but not lose muscle and improve our body composition, this is the whole purpose of keeping a fat loss phase moderate. Actually, when you cut calories too aggressively without adequate protein and resistance training, that's the worst case.

Philip Pape: 13:12

Research shows up to 40 to 50% of the weight lost can come from lean mass. So a lot of you out there, if you're listening and you're not strength training, you're not eating enough protein. Don't go into fat loss yet, because you're going to lose muscle and then you're not going to lose fat, or you're going to lose some fat but you're also going to lose muscle. That's the problem, you know. I think somebody tried to argue with me about this on I don't know where it was on YouTube and say, like, show me the research that says you don't lose fat when you lose. And I said no, no, no. The issue isn't that you don't lose fat, it's that, along with fat, you lose a bunch of muscle. I'd rather you lose only fat.

Philip Pape: 13:47

Another study found that aggressive dieters lost twice as much muscle as those taking a moderate approach, even with the same total weight loss. And again, this is all accelerated when you're not training, when you're not eating protein, when you are lifting weights and you are eating protein, you can actually mitigate this quite a bit, and that's why you can go somewhat aggressively, depending on how long it is, and not lose muscle. But again, that's a little bit more of an advanced strategy once you've got all this stuff dialed in. And I talked about that on other episodes, such as the January 6th New Year's episode about six ways to lose fat in 2025. So check that one out Now.

Philip Pape: 14:25

Why does all this matter? Right, muscle tissue we know it burns more calories than fat when it's at rest. Right, and so we want to have more muscle for a variety of reasons. But that's just from a metabolic and from a calorie burning perspective. It's going to make fat loss harder when you don't have the extra muscle and you start to lose it and your metabolism decline accelerates, and that's the worst thing we want to happen, all right.

Philip Pape: 14:48

The second thing is that you'll get increased hunger and cravings, well beyond what you would if you were at a moderate deficit. So it's almost like an exponential curve. The more aggressive you cut, the more you ramp up those hunger and cravings because the hormonal adaptations that happen. They are making you hyper-focused on food. For a reason and you've probably heard maybe have heard of the famous Minnesota starvation experiment, which gave us a lot of research that we still rely on today Participants in that study became obsessed, literally obsessed, with food. That's all they can think about. They had intense cravings. Many developed binge eating behaviors that persisted after the study. So that alone, from a sustainability perspective, if you think about dropping your calories to the point where you can tolerate it versus past that point, that makes a big difference on whether you're successful.

Philip Pape: 15:40

Number three here is compromise training performance. So because we are trying to prioritize fat loss and not muscle loss and therefore we want to train, we also want the fat loss itself to not chicken and egg us out of training properly, right? So if you don't have enough fuel, so if you don't have enough fuel, if you don't have enough recovery, your workouts are going to suffer. And I guess the irony is that we are deliberately cutting down on fuel and recovery by going into a fat loss phase. So we have to find the right balance, otherwise you just can't push as hard, you can't lift as heavy, you can't maintain the proper intensity, get that stimulus for muscle preservation and then you'll burn fewer calories and it all stacks on top of itself. So think about training and performance. That's huge.

Philip Pape: 16:25

Number four is psychological burnout, mental burnout, right? Extreme restriction, then, requires willpower, and that is not something we have to rely on. Is willpower, discipline and always being on and consistent and perfect? No, we don't want to have to rely on it. We want to enjoy our life and the fact that life is fluid comes and goes. Stress comes in and out, people come in and out. Our situation changes weekly, if not daily, right? And we know that willpower is this finite resource.

Philip Pape: 16:53

Psychology tells us that most people hit a breaking point pretty early on if they go too aggressively and then you realize that this fast, quick fix type of deal is not all it's cracked up to be. It doesn't even give you the result, even if it's just pure weight loss. Oftentimes you won't even get it because you can't stick with it. You hit a breaking point. Only the people who really white knuckle it out, that really just stick with it with their discipline yeah, they'll finally get it. You hit a breaking point. Only the people who really white knuckle it out, that really just stick with it with their discipline yeah, they'll finally get it. And then they're still going to have all the other problems like muscle loss and hunger and everything else. So then it just becomes impossible and that's not sustainable.

Philip Pape: 17:25

The last one number five is the rebound weight gain. Studies are consistently showing between 80 and 95% of crash dieters regain the weight within one to five years. Right and remember, crash dieting is something that adheres to any of the red flags that I mentioned earlier. So don't think that you are not crash dieting because you're doing keto or you're doing intermittent fasting. There is a crash dieting aspect to that that's going to make it unsustainable. And then, more concerning is when people fail to sustain the results, they actually usually end up heavier than their starting weight because they've lost muscle mass. So not only they're heavier, they've got even higher percentage of body fat at that heavier weight. And now they've prolonged their metabolic adaptation which, although I mentioned it's temporary, there are aspects of it that permanently change. If your body composition has changed, granted, you can come back and restore it with bringing back your muscle mass, with losing some body fat, but know that that is what happens. So what's the alternative to all of this? What do you actually want to do?

Speaker 2: 18:32

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement, for all of our help. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 19:18

All right, I'm going to break it down into just three key principles that I think are the most important. Sometimes I can go down a rabbit hole and give you like a million things to do. These are three principles that I work with all my clients to incorporate as part of their skill set, and if you just think about these, write them down, put them on a post-it, put them on your fridge, they're going to go a long way. The first principle of sustainable fat loss is doing it moderately, like doing all things moderately. Create a moderate deficit, right. Create a moderate deficit that allows for adequate nutrition, energy performance, while still getting you the result. So moderate for you is going to be moderate for someone else. I usually talk about a sweet spot of around a half percent 0.75% of your body weight a week. Some people might be lower, some people might be higher, some people it's a lot lower. You may be the type of person that has a fairly low metabolism, not a lot of wiggle room, and you've got to go at like a 200 calorie deficit a day and it's going to take you many months to get to the number you want. Well, so what? You're going to get there as opposed to either not get there or get there in the wrong way and lose a bunch of muscle, make it unsustainable, regain the weight all the things we just talked about. So the moderate rate of loss is actually a very important principle to think about because it can override all the other trade-offs you're thinking of. Right, if you're thinking, okay, I'm going to speed it up at this point because nothing's going on in my life, but it causes a lot more hunger, you might not stick to it. Right, if you are trying to hit a certain date and then you go at a faster rate of loss, you might end up losing muscle. So there's a lot of reasons not to do it aggressively. There are a small subset of reasons where you can do it aggressively, but again, that's beyond the scope here when we're talking about general principles for sustainability.

Philip Pape: 21:09

So the moderate deficit is number one. The second one is that muscle preservation, and I put that as a catch-all principle because then it causes you to think of your protein intake and your resistance training together, but also things like carbs. So it kind of ekes into different aspects of this. We want enough protein, but we also want enough carbs. We also want to train consistently, but not so much that we over-train or don't have recovery during fat loss, that we're starving or whatever, and it kind of forces you to think about all those things. It helps you maintain your metabolic rate. It ensures that weight loss comes primarily from fat tissue and you're going to have better body composition outcomes.

Philip Pape: 21:47

And then the third principle here is planning in diet breaks and recovery periods. So, combined with the moderate loss, the preserving muscle, then the breaks allow you to think about your life. This is where many people go wrong. They think they want to just keep pushing harder when progress slows or they're going to keep going, going, going, going and never stop. But we know that taking planned breaks up at maintenance calories is going to help you, and so we're going to talk about that. And yeah, while it gives you a short physiological break, it's mainly a psychological break and then it teaches you. Oh, I can do this for a long time because I know that I can accommodate parties and holidays and travel and trips and it's not a big deal. I'm just taking a quick little pauses along the way, and that is also part of principle number one of being making it sustainable and moderate in terms of the rate of loss, all right. So hopefully that all made sense to you guys, and I like to think in terms of an engineer, you know that. And so what we're doing is we're building a system.

Philip Pape: 22:48

When I say what's the worst diet, it's the diet that doesn't give you a system for making it work for you. But what does a good system look like? Well, a good system is going to be efficient, which means you use minimal resources, and that can include mental resources. It's reliable, meaning you know if you do it it's going to get you a result consistently. Three, it has to be sustainable. So that means you've got to be able to do it and turn the crank, no matter what's going on in your life. You can keep doing it over and over again. You could ostensibly do it forever. I mean a true fat loss phase. We want it to be a fixed duration, but you're going to be able to do the process no matter what life throws at you, even if you adjust the scale or the magnitude of it. And you'll be able to take breaks. You'll be able to periodize and those sorts of things. And then the fourth thing about your system is it should be adaptable. So I kind of just alluded to that. But it needs to be able to respond to changing conditions, no matter what. Like, you've always got plan B, c, d, you always have. If, then and it's kind of built in right A crash diet fails every one of these criteria.

Philip Pape: 23:56

It's inefficient because, well, the main reason it's inefficient is it wastes muscle tissue, so it doesn't even get you what you want right, and so, by definition, it just fails. It's unreliable because the results are going to vary wildly. I can't guarantee that you're going to have a certain body composition coming out of it. It's just so chaotic. It's also unsustainable because it just fights against what your body's trying to do. Because it just fights against what your body's trying to do, or put another way, it causes your body to over-respond when it comes to homeostasis, hormones, muscle loss, body fat storage, etc. And then it is inflexible because there is nowhere to go when progress stalls, except just eat less, and that's the worst thing.

Philip Pape: 24:37

Whereas a moderate approach checks all the boxes, preserves muscle, produces results that are reliable, you're confident, you can do it. It works with your body's adaptations. It also leaves room for adjustments to work with your life whenever you need to, and that's all the time, let's be honest. So, while the crash dieting might seem faster initially, it takes longer to reach your goals when you factor in the recovery time, the rebound, weight gain, the loss of muscle and I hope I couldn't make it any clearer than that. Okay, I don't think I said that right. I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

Philip Pape: 25:11

So the worst weight loss diet isn't really a diet, it's the approach and it's the mindset that that approach creates. It's something that teaches you to view your body as an enemy, which is not what you want. You want to work with it, right. It promotes an unsustainable and all or nothing mentality, a poor relationship with food, and there's no way you can have lasting change under those conditions. But if you're armed with science, like we covered today, and what actually works, a flexible approach, you can be among the less than 5% that choose a different path that respects your body's superiority, in that your body knows what it's supposed to do. It delivers the results you want. It builds sustainable habits and preserves the muscle and the metabolic health that make long-term fat loss possible. And, of course, if you are ready to create your own sustainable fat loss plan, if you want a little bit of expert guidance.

Philip Pape: 26:06

Go ahead and book that free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment with me. It is not a sales call, it is a hey, how you doing. Let's get to know each other, tell me what's happening, and here's a few things you can try that are going to give you some clarity. We'll identify what's been holding you back. We're going to create a simple, science-based action plan, and I usually end up sending you some guides or resources along with that if not a workout program, for example and it's going to help you lose fat? It will. It's going to help you maintain muscle. It's going to help you maintain and improve your metabolic health. Just by applying those principles, click the link in the show notes to schedule your free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment. And with that, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember the best approach isn't the quote-unquote fastest one, it's the one that lets you maintain your results for life. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Why Food is NOT the Problem When Your Diet Falls Off Track (Ali Shapiro) | Ep 271

Do you feel trapped in a cycle of dieting and frustration? Why do your best efforts with food seem to fail when it matters most? Is it possible that your food struggles are about something deeper than food itself?

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the deeper roots of food consistency with integrative health pioneer Ali Shapiro. Ali shares why food battles often represent safety battles, how to identify hidden triggers and a practical framework to break free from emotional eating. Learn why food is more than fuel, how unmet emotional needs affect your habits, and how to achieve sustainable food freedom.

Ali Shapiro is the creator of Truce with Food and host of the Insatiable Podcast, and she brings a fresh perspective to overcoming diet struggles by addressing the emotional and psychological roots of our relationship with food.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:38 Why food struggles aren’t about food
6:32 Understanding emotional hunger
11:58 Tools Vs. Deeper psychological work
18:37 Food and the human experience
25:32 Stress, loneliness, secret eating, and falling off track
29:58 The T.A.I.L. framework for emotional triggers
36:18 Facing triggers and learning growth
38:34 Ali’s personal journey with food and health
45:04 Finding trust and meeting your needs
51:26 Compassionate witness and feeling significant
55:45 Outro

Episode resources:

• Ali’s Truce with Food program

• Insatiable Podcast

• Website: alishapiro.com

• Instagram: @alimshapiro 

• Youtube: @alishapirollc.founderoftru9290 
  

Why Food is NOT the Problem When Your Diet Falls Off Track

If you’ve ever felt like food is your greatest struggle, despite your best efforts to track, measure, and follow all the rules, you’re not alone. But what if the real battle isn’t about food at all? This article unpacks why food is often a symptom of deeper emotional and psychological triggers—and how understanding these can lead to freedom with food.

The Root Cause: Safety and Belonging

According to Ali Shapiro, creator of Truce with Food, our struggles with food often tie back to a need for safety and belonging. From childhood to adulthood, our emotional systems are wired to seek these needs, and food often becomes a substitute when we feel unsupported, inadequate, or isolated.

For instance:

• Emotional eating can be a response to feeling overwhelmed or lonely.

• Overeating in secret often signals a lack of support in your life.

• Cravings may reflect a need for comfort or reassurance rather than physical hunger.

Understanding these connections is the first step toward lasting change.

The TAIL Method to Identify Emotional Triggers

Shapiro outlines a practical framework called the TAIL Method to help identify emotional triggers behind food struggles. Ask yourself: What’s at the TAIL end of your food noise?

1. Tired: Are you exhausted, physically or emotionally? Rest might be the missing ingredient, whether it’s physical rest like walking or emotional rest through support.

2. Anxious: Is uncertainty or external stress weighing on you? Focus on feeling resourced rather than in control.

3. Inadequate: Are you doubting your capabilities? A compassionate witness—someone who offers support without judgment—can help you navigate self-doubt.

4. Lonely: Do you feel isolated or disconnected? Addressing your need for belonging or significance can reduce feelings of loneliness.

By recognizing these triggers, you can meet your emotional needs without turning to food.

Why Falling Off Track Isn’t a Failure

Many of us view “falling off track” as a failure, but Shapiro argues there’s no such thing as a track. Life is fluid, and every challenge is an opportunity to learn and grow. Instead of beating yourself up, ask:

• “Why does this behavior make sense?”

• “What feels hard right now?”

• “What do I really need in this moment?”

The answers to these questions can help you uncover the unmet needs driving your behavior and develop more effective strategies to address them.

Food as a Metaphor for Belonging

Food is deeply tied to our sense of belonging, whether it’s sharing meals with loved ones or the comfort we derive from childhood foods. Shapiro explains that food noise often reflects a hunger for connection, safety, or meaning.

For example:

• A parent hiding in the pantry to eat after a stressful day might be seeking respite from feeling unsupported in parenting.

• A corporate worker stress-eating at their desk might be masking feelings of inadequacy or unfulfillment.

The solution lies in addressing the root need—whether that’s support, connection, or a sense of purpose.

Building Self-Trust and Food Freedom

Breaking free from food struggles requires rebuilding self-trust. Start small:

1. Identify your triggers using the TAIL method.

2. Meet your needs with appropriate actions, like asking for help, creating emotional rest, or practicing self-compassion.

3. Shift your mindset from “fixing” yourself to learning from your experiences.

With time, these steps can help you achieve true freedom with food—no white-knuckling required.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been fighting food for what feels like forever, tracking, measuring, following rules, only to fall off track again and again, and you're exhausted from food being the project in your life, this episode is for you. Today, we are discussing how the real battle isn't about food at all. It's about something much, much deeper. You'll discover why what you've tried in the past has not worked and how to finally move to a place that's less lonely and isolating and much more confident when it comes to your eating habits, so you can finally attain that freedom with food. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are daring to discuss the deeper roots of food consistency with Ali Shapiro.

Philip Pape: 0:57

Now, ali is a rebel with a serious cause, a pioneer in integrative health, the creator of Truce with Food, and she's the host of the top-ranked Insatiable podcast. Go, give that a follow. I think she's going to have me on soon, so follow that podcast. She has spent over a decade helping clients break free from the cycle of dieting frustration, burnout, not to mention the challenge that we face in the industry with the medical system, diet, culture, body positivity, movements and she does that in her own unique way. And what I love about Allie's approach is how she goes way past those surface level ideas and the motivational memes about consistency and she instead helps solve the emotional and psychological roots of why we fall off track. So today you're going to learn why food battles are actually safety battles, how to identify your hidden eating triggers and a practical path to food freedom that doesn't require white knuckling your way with an unsustainable solution. Allie, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Ali Shapiro: 1:57

Thanks for having me, philip, this is going to be good.

Philip Pape: 2:00

It's going to be awesome. Yeah, the stuff that you talk about with food safety and the relationship with food is super interesting and I think a lot of people listening they struggle with these different thoughts that they have. Right, somebody might say you know, I just can't stop eating, or I have no discipline around food, or it might be very narrow and topic, like I can't help but eat those Hershey kisses every time I see them, right, right. So I mean, so how do you actually? You know, we know it's not about food. I think is where we're going to get to in this conversation. They're telling you something else. So in your words, you've mentioned something about the relationship with safety being part of that. What do you mean by that?

Ali Shapiro: 2:38

Yeah, and I love that we want to define our terms, because safety could be a lot of things, right? Let me start with the food as an example, because it can be about the food and you talk about this a lot on Wits and Weights. So if you think about like, you're sometimes having thoughts of like oh my God, I need I don't know a burger or something, right that might be. Your body feels physically unsafe because your blood sugar isn't balanced right. It's like you don't have enough protein, right, and so that food noise is driven by your body saying I am unsafe. I may have the calories, but I don't have the nutrition I need, right.

Ali Shapiro: 3:12

So I think- True hunger true hunger, yes, physical hunger, true hunger, right. So I look at everything through this lens of safety. What most people, if we go out one ring, if we're looking at like safety rings, like I think of like physical, emotional, spiritual, right, but emotional is kind of in between that and all of us have this deep primal need to basically feel at home in the world, right, feel at home in our bodies, feel at home when we're at home with our families, feel at home at work in a way that we feel we can contribute. So I think we can think of emotion as safety, as like abstractly kind of feeling at home, but on a biological level we also need to feel, we also need to know that we have that safety.

Ali Shapiro: 3:58

So, even though in America we kind of have this highly individualistic like and I'm all for personal responsibility, this is about holding the end and we need each other. And so one of the really interesting things that you know wasn't available to Maslow when he was creating his hierarchy of needs that neuroscience has now proven is that the sense of belonging is more important than even having your basic needs met, and that's because we can think about safety as when you're a child, right, you need someone to care about you to get your basic needs met right the caretaker, feeling at home and being at home with that caretaker and again, there's lots of variations in that definition but you need someone to care about you enough that they're going to get you to where you can be self-sufficient. But still, even as adults, we still have a need to have other people and feel like we have our place in the world and that we can contribute. And so that's what I mean by feeling a sense of safety.

Philip Pape: 5:01

Yeah, that's a very it's a profound and almost mind-blowing place to flip the idea of the you mentioned Maslow's hierarchy of needs and saying that we are social creatures. You have no argument for me on that at all. I used to be a very much like independent cause, like it's we're all you know, in my idealistic youth right, it's all me. But I've come to realize through family and friends and business and life and also, like you said, biology and what we've learned about evolution, that we wouldn't be humans without depending on each other. For that, I mean, babies are helpless for the first few months of their life because they're able to survive with humans.

Philip Pape: 5:35

So your work then proposes that this food noise gets louder because we are feeling separate or feeling alone. And I think you even talk about the physiological piece of that, like the stimulants or the attachment chemicals in our brain, I believe. So I mean let's keep going down that thread, just so people understand, okay, what exactly is happening. And we're not talking about physical hunger, we're talking about what do you call it? Physiological or psychological, emotional hunger.

Ali Shapiro: 6:03

Yeah, I mean, I would say it's emotional hunger, like it's the metaphor, the metaphor of hunger, right, cause our body doesn't speak in language, it speaks in metaphor.

Philip Pape: 6:12

I mean that's good, stop Hold on A metaphor of hunger. Okay, this is great. A client in my recently went back and forth Cause I was saying let's address your hunger, and she's like it's not hunger. It's not hunger, it's cravings. I'm like oh, I see what you're getting at and I think this is part of the thing we want to clear up with terminology is that hunger is like not just food hunger, it's hunger for many other things.

Ali Shapiro: 6:32

Yes, yes, and you can. I mean, I've sometimes call it phantom hunger, but I think it's also realizing that, yes, hunger is a metaphor, right, and so once you know your blood sugars, balance, your gut health, your strength, like, you got all the physical safety Right and you're still having that food noise. So an example I'll give you a couple of food examples of how people, when that food noise, when it's an emotional food noise, right, and these are come straight from client examples. Right, I was with, I was just starting with the client and she's like OK, so I'm all or nothing. And I don't really. I think all or nothing is that's a whole other podcast. But I was like okay, so when do you get into your nothing phase where you're like chuck it, f it, right.

Ali Shapiro: 7:13

And she's like well, like I'll be eating really healthy, and then my, my kids want to go to Chick-fil-A and we're rushed and it's convenient and easy, and so I will just be like, okay, I'm going to just eat this for this lunch, and then the whole day is ruined, right, and what we were able to parse out is that she actually has a story that her needs are inconvenience.

Ali Shapiro: 7:34

She's like I've been told I've been in inconvenience, like my whole life, right, and so it's like okay. So in that moment she didn't even know that she had needs, right. It was just like, oh, I want it to be easy, I have this food noise. This is the most easy path to that, because feeling our emotions actually requires space and time, because so many of us are going going, going. But that's an example of and it's unconscious, not because it's deep and dark, but just because you're going on automatic pilot. But she had a need there to feel like I want to eat something healthy, but she thought that was in conflict with what her kids wanted and she didn't want to be an inconvenience there.

Philip Pape: 8:15

Okay, I see she didn't want to be an inconvenience herself too. Isn't it funny how we separate our kids from ourselves sometimes like that, unconsciously or not.

Ali Shapiro: 8:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's like, okay, we need to work on, like how is this not like a being health, eating healthy is all on you, like you have to carry the family that way, like because when we're often in all or nothing, we we think we're in, things are there's a conflict between our needs and everyone else being happy. So that's like the safety right? Oh, if people are happy and they get their way, then I'm still going to be included. Here is kind of the assumption in that particular case. So there was a need to want to eat healthy, but there was also a competing need, the perception of being an inconvenience, and obviously you can reconcile both of those once you understand what's happening. But that's one example of emotional safety.

Philip Pape: 9:07

Yeah, and how? How did you uncover that? Like, how does someone listening uncover that? Obviously, we're all we're always going to say go talk to Allie, you know she's a great coach join her program and all. But in reality, you know, people want to understand. What are the tools here, what are the strategies for doing that?

Ali Shapiro: 9:25

Yeah Well, I think the first thing is to realize that when you have phantom hunger hunger that's not physical the go-to knee-jerk reaction is to beat yourself up to be like, oh, I told myself I wasn't eating the Hershey's today, why am I? I can already see myself going home and eating them. Or if they're at your co-worker's desk, I don't know, do people work in person anymore? It's true? It's true, the bulls are there. Yes, you're still there all these years later. I knew they were there when I was in corporate.

Ali Shapiro: 9:50

So the first thing is just to say, like, why does this make sense? So, rather than beating ourselves up because you were talking earlier about that physiological need for safety, and so what you were talking about is what Dr Deborah McNamara talks about in her book Nourish. She's a child developmental psychologist, but she talks about how food stimulates attachment chemicals, but it doesn't give us the deeper belonging that we actually need. So from the time we're born, right, food gets coupled with someone cares about you. So as adults, we turn to the food. We feel like someone cares about us, but we don't actually have the support of the. It's not a caretaker when you're an adult, but it's people that care about you, including yourself, advocating for your needs. So that's why you have to say first of all, why does this make sense? Like on a primal level, I need to feel this emotional safety and it's my hunger. This emotional hunger, as a metaphor, is pointing me to the fact that I do not have it Like that is all that's telling you. It's a symptom, not the problem.

Philip Pape: 10:57

And do you? What is your opinion on the idea that there are different angles of attack for this right and there are different tribes and camps and I know how you're big, like me, you are skeptical of anybody who goes all in one direction but there's the idea that we can use tools and strategies to process our way through, In other words, not necessarily have to uncover the root cause, just find something that helps us move forward and then maybe it eventually resolves the issue, versus going all in on the psychology side, uncovering your deepest, darkest secrets from when you were a child, to like figure it all out, right, Like a therapist. Like what is your thought on that spectrum? Do you know what I'm asking? When it comes to like like you could just change your environment that's a common strategy that's talked about. Right, Like change your kitchen environment and put food where you don't see it, and like those strategies you know what I'm saying and they can help people without always understanding the trigger fully, and I think you need both. It depends, but I'm curious on your thoughts.

Ali Shapiro: 11:58

Yeah, that was gonna be my answer. I think if someone's new to all of this, they should try that, and Someone's new to all of this they should try that. And if it works, my clients have tend to be overwhelmed by all of that. They've tried it and I think of like, for example, some of my clients had food insecurity as a kid Right and so them not having food in the house makes them feel emotionally unsafe. It's like I even though I know logically and this actually I had I actually had a couple of clients who were cruising and then COVID came and they just needed one spot session because they were like, why is this food noise back?

Ali Shapiro: 12:28

Like I have not had this for years. And I was like what feels hard about it? Like that's the next question, what feels hard about right now? And it was like, oh my God, there's supply chain issues. I can't get all the food I need. I'm. I am back to being eight years old again and not knowing if we were going to be able to eat at night, and so these.

Ali Shapiro: 12:46

I think what ends up happening is we give people these blanket prescriptions, not knowing like what does that trigger Cause, even if you change your environment. Even if you do all of this stuff, you still have to be with other people, you still need to interact with people, and so it's, you know, and I, for example, I also had one client. She was trying to do mindful eating, okay, and we were actually working on her feeling really alone and isolated in her life and she had friends around her and all this stuff, but she, there was still stuff that she didn't, she didn't realize she wasn't bringing like her full self to her relationships, right, and so she ended up feeling quite alone, even though she was around other people who liked her and cared about her, and she was like, you know, I've tried the mindful eating stuff. I know I'm not supposed to listen to podcasts, I know I'm supposed to breathe and she's like, but when I do that it's so apparent how alone I am.

Philip Pape: 13:38

Like yes, cause it's now she's, so she's just with her own thoughts. She's even more alone.

Ali Shapiro: 13:42

Okay, interesting, I was like, turn on the podcast. Like, like, you know, like, like that's not, and I think cause you're an engineer, you'll appreciate there's. There's like a sequence over strategy, right, like, okay, all of these strategies will work at some point at potentially for you, but what is the sequence that it makes sense?

Ali Shapiro: 13:59

right so if someone is. You know, I have a lot of clients who have, like you know, hashimoto's or maybe on the pre-diabetic track or something right, like if you may need to stabilize yourself physically, um, but if you've already tried that and it's like I know what to do but I can't do it, um, you know, maybe I need to look at more the psychology. And I would also say and I know that you know it's both camps, but we know what stress this the way that I look at it is like this is whenever you're working on the physiology, you're also working on your psychology, and whenever you're working on your psychology yeah, it's just like an infinity feedback loop.

Ali Shapiro: 14:36

So it's like, oh, the psychology I was going to say is also realizing that so much of our safety is in our body. So it's like these emotional needs generate our thoughts. So I don't, I'm not, I'm. I do more developmental psychology where I'm like, I'm not concerned about all of these thoughts going on. We need to look at the deeper need that makes you think you're, you're trying to be good in your thoughts, but it's driven by a need that needs you to question if that's really the good thing to do.

Philip Pape: 15:04

Right, so like, for example, okay, yeah, no, no, you please, please, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 15:10

So, for example, um, one of my clients, she would find herself, you know, before going out to eat. This was before we started working together. She's like I will go, look at the menu and I will know what I want to do, I want to make the healthy choice. And then I get there and I am just like, go with the flow I'm going to order, you know.

Ali Shapiro: 15:30

And it's like what is happening and it's like, oh, she was feeling high maintenance, like when we actually got to it right, it was like she thought the good thing was to be easygoing and eat with everyone else she felt judged or whatever, for being too prepared or something, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 15:47

Well, the perception and this was based on the past, again, it wasn't deep dark into her childhood. It was just like, oh, my family judged picky eaters right, and so it's like, if I didn't know that I'm putting that on my friends now, which, when I so, then we have her try. It's like, okay, that's a small risk. Next time just say you know what, I'm good, I'm going to order this, like what happens? And it's like, oh, nothing happened In fact. Like it opened up this great conversation about oh, I know this is embarrassing, but I used to feel pressured to eat with all of you guys. And then it opened up this big, deeper conversation, generated more emotional safety about, like you can totally eat what you want. I sometimes feel pressure the next time a couple other of her friends ate order different.

Ali Shapiro: 16:32

And so what's often happening with our perception is we're always bringing the past to the present, right, like all of us. So we're often thinking like the good thing was to just go with the flow, be low maintenance, don't be a burden, and what the task of developmental psychology as adults is to say wait a second. This is what I learned and it's not my work is, even though maybe we will touch on the hard things that happened in childhood. It's really about the cultural conditioning of what everyone thinks is normal. That is good or bad, right, and so it's like that's like normal. The more you do this work, the more you're like normal is bad shit, crazy, but we keep going along.

Philip Pape: 17:16

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I. You hit me so hard there. The cultural cause I was thinking, even thinking of alcohol and like the more extreme things that we rationalize to some nth degree. And it wouldn't make any sense if an alien came to our planet and said what are you doing to yourself? What are you guys doing? It's part of our culture, it's our conditioning, and there's behavioral psychology, there's social psychology and learned behavior. So I think the average person, if they could know more about what you're saying and kind of be just open to it and aware of it, will help maybe interrupt some of those patterns and issue just from the awareness.

Philip Pape: 17:49

Here's my maybe this is a deeper question, or maybe not. Why are we even talking about this? And what I mean by that is why is food itself the thing? Like? Many of your clients are probably just like mine. They're highly independent, they're intelligent, they're disciplined, they're high achievers, they're successful in a lot of things. Why do they struggle with food? I mean and we're talking everybody, like it's almost everybody has some struggle with this. Is it because it's your area of expertise and we're talking about it, or is it literally come to the top of the list because it's something we do, we need every day, as humans, like. What are your thoughts on?

Ali Shapiro: 18:20

that. I love that. You asked that because I'm out in the wild and people are like what do you do? Like the easiest way is to be like I help people who want to eat, eat and be healthy do it. And they can't. And they're like isn't that all of America? And I'm like, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 18:42

But I think it comes down to like nature really designed food to be communal and to help us. Like, if you think about um, like it helped us. If we think about belonging, even if we go out to the original belonging is belonging to the land, right. Like food helps orient us. That's a form of safety, like here's the season you're in, right, here's how to take care of your body.

Ali Shapiro: 19:00

And I think about food being the most intimate relationship we have, like what we eat literally becomes our blood, our bones. Like you can't get more intimate than that. And so I think between that, we feel healthier when we feel rooted into place. We feel healthier when we're rooted into family, into community. And again, I'm pulling from some of Dr Deborah McNamara's book nourish, but she talks about like nature, creating this exquisite design of how you know, mealtime is really about. Like I said before, feeling our feelings requires space and safety, and it's like mealtime is often the chance to like, slow down and feel these feelings and then you have the food as like almost what can't be said right, like if, when I think about when people pass away, what do people do to show you that they're there for you?

Ali Shapiro: 19:53

They, they bring a casserole, they bring you know, and it's so to me it's just like nature. Quote unquote comfort food isn't bad, it's necessary. It's when we're turning to comfort for something that it can't.

Philip Pape: 20:08

It can't fulfill. Yeah, it can't fulfill. Satisfy it can't satisfy. You're insatiable. There you go, yeah, yeah, dr.

Ali Shapiro: 20:13

Gordon Newfield says there's. Who is Dr McNamara's mentor? He says there's nothing as addictive as something that almost works, and it's like the food almost works, but it's the, it's the care that's in in constant, that that is what we really need. And so and I think in our culture that has a lot of food issues I don't think we have a lot of communal care. You're expected to do everything yourself.

Philip Pape: 20:38

The care ensconced in food and the experience of food is what we need. I love that. I like the word ensconce too, but I don't know where that came from.

Philip Pape: 20:47

It's great. I know it's so poetic, right. Like this is great. Yeah, so many things come to mind, like just humanity and culture and religion as well, Like people, different religions and how food is a central part of that, and like we don't want to deny those things. We don't want to like. What you're implying here is that there is a, there can be absolutely a comfort and enjoyment of food, and I've seen people post comments to when I've said that before. I'm like if you can enjoy your food, if it satisfies you and you can eat it without guilt, like that's a great place to be. Oh, you shouldn't enjoy food, or food is fuel. Like. What are your thoughts of those? Are those like you know?

Ali Shapiro: 21:22

food is fuel.

Philip Pape: 21:23

You shouldn't enjoy food, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 21:24

Yeah, I mean, I think it's and right, it is fuel. And again when we think about you. Know, the Surgeon General said loneliness is more dangerous than smoking right or longevity and health right, yeah, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 21:37

And we're in a culture that loves to measure and quantify it, and I love numbers and all that stuff and they, I think, the best things in life. You can't always quantify. Like you know, you, you have kids. It's like, oh my God, I saw that dance recital. It's like, how do you quantify that, that feeling of pride of seeing your kid like nail something after struggling with it, or even in yourself, right Like it, even at the gym? Like it's like when I can, can just get like even like one pound more on the squat rack. It's like it. Yes, I know I've done better because of the one pound, but it's like it's the, the strength and the courage that ultimately is like what makes, I think, life worth meaning. So I think food can be fuel and I think we need. If you're struggling with it or if you, if you, I would just I think of food as a metaphor. So I'd be really interested with someone who thinks it's only fuel. Like what, what are you missing out on that you don't think you're missing out on? Yeah.

Philip Pape: 22:34

Oh, for sure, For sure. And I joke all the time on my podcast how I'm like kind of a foodie and my wife and I are very different. Like she, she can basically eat anything and it does. It kind of all tastes the same to her. I mean she admits that's just her how her taste buds are, you know, there's like two super tasters and whatnot. She, she, appreciates really good food, but I I'm at the next level, like I could tell you what ingredients are in there or not in there. You know this needs more of this, needs more of that. So there is a fun connection and I like how you tied it to how we feel when we accomplish things or when we're in the gym or whatever, because it's so central to the human experience.

Ali Shapiro: 23:06

Well, I was going to go back to one level deeper too, because this is, I mean, this is the spiritual level. But depending on your beliefs, I mean I think God is part of the earth, right, so it's like it's almost also this, like spiritual right and, like you said, all religious traditions, right, revolve around food and the symbolism there. So we can also look at, you know, it is like us, like the universe, right, it's like commuting with that like right. And when you're like I often say to clients, like when have cause, sometimes people will come to me like I struggle with portion control and I'm like, well, tell me a time where portion control was easy.

Ali Shapiro: 23:44

And it's like, oh, when I went to my family's and we make this thing, let's call it sourdough bread. I don't know, that's probably because I just was on Instagram Everyone makes sourdough bread Like, oh my God, it takes so long, but we all do it together and it's like, oh my God, that spiritual experience of being with others and having you know, and just like that is like the nourishment that we really want. And so I also think it's just food is spiritual, for how I I think of the earth and what it provides as part of that spiritual energy that that has created all of this.

Philip Pape: 24:19

Yeah, and if and if I were to connect that for people who are not as spiritual and that's cool I would say that food making food is one of the last primal things we do like, other than sex. Right, it's making food and that, like we don't build our own houses I mean, most of us don't I built a little bit of my house, but that I would never do that again. But you know, we don't build it Like we don't build shelter, we don't hunt for our food even, or we don't do all the primal things. So maybe it's just like a vestige of what's left from our primal, you know nature yeah.

Philip Pape: 24:51

As we're on the internet talking on a podcast. So it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool, it's holding the end.

Ali Shapiro: 24:55

It's holding the end. Yeah, it's holding the end.

Philip Pape: 24:57

I like that holding the end to your partner.

Ali Shapiro: 25:03

Yeah, yes, Say what they said, and.

Philip Pape: 25:05

Conan O'Brien's really good at that. His podcast, what's it called? Conan Meets a Friend One of the best podcasts ever.

Ali Shapiro: 25:12

I really liked him. Why did the nightly show with him not work out? That feels like forever ago, but I was really-.

Philip Pape: 25:18

I think he's driving now though on the podcast, you should check it out.

Philip Pape: 25:23

Yeah, it's okay. So I guess, going back to um, see, I always have a bunch of questions and notes that I'd never get to, which is cool, so okay. So, handling stress and the alone, the loneliness of all of this, and then tying that to falling off track with food, where do we want to take it to? What's the next step? Right, so now we've, we understand there's the psychology of it. I understand why food is maybe important on both sides of it. Talk about the loneliness and the stress and handling that and falling off track, because ultimately we want to get back on track, or maybe it's not even a track Like maybe we should talk about. Is there really even a track? Is that a faulty premise? I don't know.

Ali Shapiro: 25:59

I freaking love that you asked that question, because of course, I use that in my marketing, because that's right, but there isn't a track. If you know how to learn from what's happening, it's all the same. You know, and this is I mean. This comes down to religion as well Like, but I mean well, there's certain spiritual traditions that believe like, everything's welcome, it's not a problem, right To try to like right. But in America we believe you have to earn your goodness. So it's like falling off track is bad versus like.

Ali Shapiro: 26:25

Why does this make sense? Why? What can I learn from this? And so I think, if people and I love that you use the word alone, because that is you know, and especially for people listening you know that you feel alone if you're secret eating right Like that's what I tell clients Like, your food is always telling you what your needs are in a metaphor. So a lot of my clients, for example, will like after their kids, like their, their, like their kids are melting down or something they just like escape to the pantry and it's like secret eating Okay.

Ali Shapiro: 26:56

Secret eating yeah, yeah, I got it. Or waiting till everyone's alone. You're doing it in your car at night, whatever. That's a symbol or that's a symptom, symbol, metaphor, whatever you want to say that you're feeling unsupported somehow in your life, so kind of the. And I'm gonna give you these steps and knowing that this can be hard, because often the emotions are so overwhelming that you may have to ask yourself this three or four days after the fact.

Ali Shapiro: 27:17

So in Truths, with Food, I always wait. I always tell people like in the beginning. It's kind of like we're just saying like can we catch this after the fact? Not till you're like two or three months in. Are you going to be able to like catch yourself in the moment, because these needs the more we restrict these emotional needs, kind of like, the more you restrict your hunger, then they come back even more in terms of that kind of unnameable energy that causes people to turn to food. So why does this make sense?

Ali Shapiro: 27:45

And then, when the food noise is happening, right, like if you're my client who was like in the pantry, right With her after, like her kid, like hiding from her kids, right, it's like what feels hard about this, right, and if, again. If you're also eating alone, you might want to say it may not be about what just happened the day, like the moment you left work and now you're in your car. It may. It may be something that happened, but because our emotions take space to like actually feel an unfurl, it's not going to be like this happened and then this, and then the food noise happened. It's going to be like once I act although for many of my clients the food noise is just a constant hum, right, it's like it's like a rock in their shoe.

Philip Pape: 28:24

So it's like it's all the time, which could make it even harder to tie it to the thing, which is why we need to dig in here.

Ali Shapiro: 28:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think saying like, what, what feels hard about this, right, and it's like I feel alone in parenting, right, I feel alone. I'm trying to think of a recent you know, yeah, I feel alone with my family trying to eat healthy, right, I feel alone. Um, I'm trying to think. When I struggled with food, I felt, um, my corporate job was like, um, my corporate job was like stressful but boring. I don't know if that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 28:58

I totally understand that. Yeah, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 29:00

And like, and I again, I was in my early twenties but I had had cancer at 13 and I was like, why am I wasting my time? I don't this feels so hard to like do be spending my all my time, and I don't know what I want to do, and you know. So it's like I felt really and a lot of my friends were like really into climbing the corporate ladder, which I get, but I was just like. That's just not like. You know, you didn't have a purpose.

Ali Shapiro: 29:28

Yeah, like for me that just did not seem enticing you know, I mean, and I was in a competitive corporate job and I was doing that, but I was like this sucks. And again I have friends who love that right, like I love corporate. But it made me feel even more alone because again, having cancer at 13, it sets you on a just a different existential track, let's put it that way. So you want to ask yourself what feels really hard about this and then you want to try to unearth the need that's within that difficulty, right? And there's one of the intermediary steps that you can ask yourself what feels hard about this. You can say what's at the tail end of my food noise? And tail stands for T, a, I, l, and this will help you identify the underlying kind of state of being. So T is for tired, right? So a lot of my clients who are at the end of the night, they're like I deserve this.

Ali Shapiro: 30:19

And it's like why does it make sense? I'm exhausted, I've had no fulfillment all day. It's you know, get up, get the kids work, get home, get the kids, and now it's like this is the only reward.

Philip Pape: 30:33

And it could happen at 3 pm in the afternoon too, right oh?

Ali Shapiro: 30:36

yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:38

Yes, I've heard it all.

Ali Shapiro: 30:39

Yeah, well, and if you're going through perimenopause or menopause and have like sleep issues, you know it could be like first thing in the morning and so T is tired, a is anxious and this is uncertainty and this is uncertainty from the outside. So I don't know about you, but I know a lot of. I had a lot of clients drug come to me during COVID, right, covid was like this uncertain time, like what is happening? How long is lockdown? What are people are sick? I should I go outside, Right? So that uncertainty. We saw alcohol and food consumption like skyrocket, right. Our public health went down considerably, right, not to mention like kids' mental health. So anxiousness is like uncertainty from the outside.

Ali Shapiro: 31:21

Then the I is inadequacy and that is when we're wondering is it me Like? I had a client who introduced with food? It was awesome, she was able to interrupt the cycle because she went to a new job and she was like learning all the systems and everything, but she accidentally did like the wrong project and she's like it made me feel so inadequate and she's like my old way of being would have been like okay, you're going to work and you're going to fix it and then you're going to eat because this sucks. While you're doing this, she's like what I started to do is like I'm going to tell my boss, like you know and, and, but she, so she had to. She felt inadequate. But I was like, are you really inadequate or are you new to the job? You know? So it's like you need someone to be like oh, I have this need for an extension of time and the boss was like, yeah, but I definitely need it by Wednesday.

Philip Pape: 32:13

Let's make sure that you understand, you know, and it was like, oh, my God, you can do that you know she was like, it was probably a big relief.

Ali Shapiro: 32:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when we're feeling inadequate, we're like it's me, not the environment or the contextual, the specifics of the circumstance. And then, last one is that loneliness of like. I just feel separate from here in some way. I feel alone. Often a way that you know that you're having that lonely trigger is you're like if I was thinner, this would not be happening, right? That's a common way of kind of offloading the sense of aloneness of you know, I would. I would be dating now. If I was thinner, I would have already asked for that promotion, if I felt more confident in my body and all of that stuff. Again, holding the end can help and you don't have to wait for that. You can start working on the skills you need to get better communication in relationships or what is the path to the promotion and who do you have to talk to? So those are the triggers of like, when you can say why does this make sense? What's at the tail end of this? And then there's needs within each of those triggers.

Philip Pape: 33:12

Yeah, love it. I love frameworks like that. No, this is really good and I know we could do multiple episodes about each one of these, but I like having that framework where it's definitely not just one thing and we oversimplify it sometimes, and we talked earlier you can't just patch it or bandaid it with a tool or one size fits all like here.

Ali Shapiro: 33:34

Here are the tips for how to blah, blah, blah Right Um, but you can use a framework right. Framework gives you agency.

Philip Pape: 33:37

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure, and it and it's nuanced and it gives you options to kind of dig into each of these. And, as you were saying that, I was thinking, oh yeah, interesting, thinking about my past, where I struggled for like 20 years with food and and I always thought it was a very different way than others. And that's true because we all, we all, get there in different ways. Inadequacy is an interesting one, right that? I assume that's uncertainty from the inside, cause you said, anxiety is uncertainty from the outside, right, self-doubt is an easier way of saying it. Self-doubt is an easier way of saying it Self-doubt.

Philip Pape: 34:07

And I like the example you gave, because there are I bet anybody listening can imagine can think almost every day a situation where you screwed up or did something, or maybe somebody gave you a disappointing answer, right, like I wanted to do this collaboration with another podcaster. His PR person's like said no, he's not interested. And immediately you think, okay, it's me right, like there's something wrong with me. And of course, you could ask, you could say, oh, can you help me understand why? But, like, 90% of the time, it's some other situation that has nothing to do with you. At the same time, I like your thought of nothing is bad, everything is. You should be curious, right, Be curious and look at it as a way to learn, even if it is something you did, I mean sometimes a way to learn, even if it is something you did.

Ali Shapiro: 34:49

I mean, sometimes there is that so Well, and what happens is, like when we struggle with food, it wears away at our self-trust a lot. And so what ends up happening is, if we don't ask those questions like what could I do? Or I love that podcaster example, Like oh, why did I? I remember pitching someone that I was friends with, like friendly, you know how it is, and like I heard nothing back and so I was like, look, I understand your platform is, like, you know, next to mine. If that's the issue, that's fine, I'm just following up. And she's like, no, let's do it. But it was like I mean, that's like a happy ending, but you know, you sometimes in this-.

Philip Pape: 35:21

But you stood in For a while, right, yeah, until you got that answer, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 35:25

But what I'm saying is like, we have that inadequacy trigger will stay until we actually learn the skills of like. So if someone said, if they were like, look, it was great, it's just bad timing and they're going to have an opening in September, it's like okay. Or if they were like I mean, you're a podcaster, I get are horrible, I know yours would not be horrible. But like, if you're someone who keeps getting denied, it's not that it's you, it's the skillset that you can learn. Right To like okay, you need to get better at pitching, otherwise you're going to keep thinking it's you rather than realizing. So that's part of like the work, as well as like all, right, I have this need, I want to be on this podcast, and it's like okay, let's work backwards and figure out because you're capable, right, you can. Yes, yes, sounds like criticism, but now, okay, I know that we're kind of running out of time, but tell me about like, what were the 20 years? Like, what was going on for you, if you think of that break?

Philip Pape: 36:17

Yeah, I mean I I don't get. It's not a big dramatic story, to be honest. Uh, but you know, from from the time I got out of college to when I was about 40, I just didn't know how to eat or train or anything, and so I was constantly dieting and yo-yoing and all of that. But when you mentioned things like eating in secret because I definitely have clients that deal with that and I've thought of my own times in the past doing that, eating in a car or when I was in my 20s and there was relationship issues I would like go to friendlies and buy like this huge chocolate fudge sundae and then just like eat it in my bedroom. You know what I mean and stuff like that, which I couldn't imagine doing now. But you know what. It took a lot of learning about yourself and right and that empathy, that like self-empathy, and tools and practice and falling in your face over and over to like figure it out.

Ali Shapiro: 37:13

So yeah, but can you see, isn't it interesting? Friendlies and relationship issues, doesn't that make sense? It's like, okay, it makes sense because you I don't know what the relationship issue was, but like, let's just say you wanted to be in a relationship or you had a fight, or whatever. It's like, oh my God, I'm feeling alone in this. So it's like the food gives me the attachment.

Philip Pape: 37:27

Exactly.

Ali Shapiro: 37:28

Can you see how?

Philip Pape: 37:29

like that oh for sure, for sure, it lines up.

Ali Shapiro: 37:35

I just I appreciate you sharing because I think everyone listening should ask themselves, like when was food easy for me and when was it hard for me? And you will probably see this theme because once you see it you can't unsee it, but it takes kind of a while because it's invisible, right?

Philip Pape: 37:48

It is, it is and you you can I mean as coaches you can kind of see pretty quickly in talking to someone that maybe they're they're on one side of that precipice or another. Right Like you, can I mean unless, unless they're putting on you know, a bold face, right Like some people might do initially, until you really learn who they are deep, deeper down. But, um, yeah, you can tell in people's language sometimes, like this is not really an issue. Let's focus on the facts and let's get our through our goal and others are like, well, I keep falling back off track on this thing. So now that you asked about me, I actually want to ask about you, cause you mentioned, I know, your history of an early cancer diagnosis. I know you've talked about that on your podcast as well. I mean, where does all this come from and this desire to help people do this? Because I imagine it's from a deep place for you.

Ali Shapiro: 38:34

Yeah, yeah, I mean I started struggling with my weight like probably when I was around oh my God, I'm so bad with like ages but probably like seven or eight, and at the time I didn't understand, like what I know now with my functional medicine. Background is like I had been exposed to pesticides a couple like right before that and I have like an overactive immune system, I mean, based on type of cancer I had, that's what it was. But I started to gain weight around eight or nine years old and I think it was from the inflammation, from the pesticide exposure Cause. I was an active kid, like we ate. My dad was a health and phys ed teacher. My mom grew up on a quote unquote organic farm. They didn't call it organic at the time. It was just like my grandma was all about nutrition, like she believed in that. Like in the forties she was so progressive and so we ate really healthfully and everything.

Ali Shapiro: 39:25

And I just started to gain weight and I tried to do Do you remember Richard Simmons? Oh, yeah, yeah, I tried Weight Watchers at 11. But what had happened in between? That is, I had been bullied in fifth grade and I think and my parents I mean you and I are around, I think the same age, the 80s and 90s people, just I'm only 25, just so you know, just kidding.

Philip Pape: 39:46

No, I'm just kidding, I'm 44.

Ali Shapiro: 39:48

So I'm like a couple of years older than you, but it was like no one has done feelings, you know, until recently. So it was just, and I think I was like so ashamed, like I could have told my parents, but I didn't. And so that's when I would start coming home and eating bagels, like my parents were city school teachers we didn't have bagels in the suburbs yet this is how long ago that was and so there would be these like cinnamon raisin bagels, and I would just come home and be so. I mean, it's called an emotional immune system, which is basically your belonging system but it was so alarmed that it was like, because I had been ostracized right From all of these girls, that was like those bagels saved my life. I mean, they then caused me to gain weight and like then feel even more ostracized and then, yeah, then I got, you know, obviously, went through cancer at 13 and lost a ton of weight and was like the thinnest that I had ever been, and because it was still the early nineties like not a lot of difference of media, I had still internalized that health equals thinness only, and so it felt like there was all this pressure to stay thin, to not, you know, not have a relapse, that.

Ali Shapiro: 40:54

And then when I was in high school, high school I could outrun my eating, like I got up every morning, like you know I mean I was I ran a lot Like I definitely was like, okay, and you get attention, you know, from for me, for from boys, it was like, oh, this is amazing, you know. But then when I went to college which again was that uncertainty trigger, even though I was really excited to go, I was a smart kid, like it wasn't academically challenging, it was just, oh, my God, this is different. It was like I started my emotional eating, started to turn more into binging and stuff like that, and so that that's like a brief, you know history of of my background. But yeah, no, this is.

Ali Shapiro: 41:32

And again, when I found functional medicine in my early twenties and was able to reverse my depression, my IBS, all of this stuff, and lose 15 pounds, but then I couldn't keep it up when I was stressed, I'm like no one has more incentive to be healthy than a cancer survivor, and I know this stuff now that food can be medicine, not just calories, and I was like there has to be more to this, because I'm pretty disciplined, so that's kind of how I came to it and I just you know this, I mean being. I love what you do because you can be with the nuance, but the default narratives in this industry are just like so outdated. And it's like come on, people like let's update our software here, you know.

Lisa: 42:12

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called macro factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me. So thank you, willow.

Philip Pape: 42:55

I get the sense. You know I don't want to generalize, but I get the sense that people, once they learn a little bit of information, they're experts, right, you know what?

Philip Pape: 43:02

I'm saying, oh yeah yeah, and I mean maybe we all do it. I'm sure I do it as well. I try not to. I was having a text chat with a friend of mine lifting buddy, and we were saying how both of us had had mentors early on that taught us the value of humility and like asking stupid questions, like asking. And I told him I had a, a boss of mine, maybe 15 years ago, who knew, you know, he had 20 years of experience and he would always go into a new project asking questions like a third grader Like I initially was shocked because he would ask questions that I would, I feel like other people would feel embarrassed to ask.

Philip Pape: 43:35

But then you realize everybody else wanted to ask the same question. You could tell Cause they're like oh, I'm glad he asked that and and and. That's how he would just learn really fast. So why did I bring that up? Because, oh, we're talking about the industry and I think there has to be that curiosity and openness that you don't know what you don't know, right, right, that's the hardest part. And even what you do know may be subject to change because you don't have all the facts or all the information. So the other cool thing is about you, allie, since we met. How did we meet? I don't know, it was through podcast pitching or something right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 44:26

But like I couldn't figure all this out till I was 40. And I did it in a different way than necessarily uncovering the emotional side. But when I speak to folks like you, who's an expert in this other realm, I love it because you're like you come on here and you teach me and the listener that there are just so many things that we can not that we have to be overwhelmed with, but that we have tools to the process with right To get through these like cause. I talk about data all the time and tracking and awareness, and I think there's a place for that. But some people have other trauma and things that they got to deal with um, unnamed energy or under what did you call it? You called it unnamed energy. Yeah, yeah, well.

Ali Shapiro: 45:06

I mean cause. Some clients call it automatic pilot. Some clients feel like they're like something voracious just comes over me and what it really is is their emotional immune system is so alarmed that they feel so unsupported or their needs are not being met. And there's no amount of like. I always tell clients you can do, you can, you can do all the morning routines, you can. You can have every hack available to you, but we have a primal need to have these caretaking needs met.

Philip Pape: 45:32

Yeah, Belonging yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 45:33

Yeah, yeah. So it's like I'm all about less is more. Self-care is being self-aware these days. Don't get me wrong. I have a sauna too. I mean, I'm not like a purist here.

Philip Pape: 45:46

No for sure, Self-care is being self-aware. No, I love that and it goes both ways. Yeah, absolutely so. When the belonging thing? So just to pull on that a little bit, when we talk about the tail method and understanding where these things come from, how do we then get to the trust that we want? That's the big question. A good way to maybe wrap up this segment today.

Ali Shapiro: 46:10

But I will say for people, I mean I'm not going to get into like the boring academic piece of why this happens, but when people can just start to identify those tail triggers, if they are like in in Truce with Food, we talk about seven inch, seven foot, 70 foot waves. If there's seven inch waves like, they're just like oh, I'm tired, that sometimes that's enough to be like this is, the more you do it, the more you're like oh, this isn't about the food, and so like, the more you can see that even that starts to restore self-trust. Because so many of my clients like I've tried everything right, if there was a solution out there, I would. I would have already known by now like it's, they really feel like they're broken in some way or they love food too much. That's that's also sometimes what people think.

Ali Shapiro: 46:50

So understanding, why does this make sense? What's at the tail end of this that can start, especially in those seven inch smaller stressful situations start to be like oh, so the needs are, when you're tired, you need rest and people think rest is just sleeping. No, there's physical rest, which is I mean, this is your wheelhouse, it's walk, it's walking non-exercise recovery yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 47:15

Yeah, non-exercise activity, thermogenesis, right, right. Neat activities, right, I mean I can't tell you how many of my clients I like gently suggest I'm like walking after meals, walking when you're stressed, walking to be more creative, and it's like once it's like all of us who are super competitive have dismissed walking because we're like it doesn't count, it's not fast, it's not intense, it's amazing. There's other kinds of rest and I'm pulling on I forget her name's work. This is someone's work who has identified these types of rest. But there's emotional rest, right, so hiring someone like you, or coming into Truce with Food, where you can have someone help you figure out what's going on, right, and so that's not all on you. So there's different kinds of rest that you can again, and I like focusing on needs because it offers flexibility, right, I mean some of my clients. I'm just thinking of one client. She's a partner in a law firm, you know, and she's on the 50th floor of the building and it's like so many of these ideas for, like she's like I get, you know, I bill every six minutes. I don't even have time to go down the elevator to the 50th floor, you know. I mean, well, now she's a partner, now she's not the same, but point being is you have to be able to find something that can fit your environment Right. So that's why focusing on needs enables flexibility with uncertainty or anxiousness is often how people can identify.

Ali Shapiro: 48:32

That is, you need to feel resourced. People think they need to feel in control. That's not true. You need to feel resourced in amongst that. So, like if you think about during COVID, you know, if you were someone struggling with with food, how could you have resourced yourself more? And that might mean, you know, I know we were like daycares, like there were no daycares, I just had a baby. It was like we never planned on having a nanny but we ended up having to get a nanny so that like we could both work and it was not the expense that you know we planned on paying, but it was like I don't know how long this is going to happen and my husband and I both work. So it was like you know, you have to find resourcing and resourcing can also be rest right. So some of these you know time resource Yep.

Ali Shapiro: 49:14

Yeah, yeah, but always plan for more time and energy than you think you're going to do when you have to resource.

Philip Pape: 49:18

Yeah, yeah, we were just. We were talking about your new program that you're launching and how like the amount of work that that creates. That you don't necessarily expect and now all of a sudden it's, it's blocks in your schedule you didn't account for and you're like, okay, now I need to move things around. But you have a really excellent, great way of communicating, ali. That I appreciate here. I hope the listeners do as well. Where? Just the way you put the emotional rest right there? That term, I'm going to be using that from now on. Honestly, it's a simple two words that I haven't quite heard people use that, but the fact that you need support and community and someone else to lean on is really, really important, because not only does it give you the emotional rest right, it gives you the extra. It's like you're borrowing their whole history and experience to be your partner in this thing and so then creates future emotional rest too, by accelerating your knowledge and your everything.

Ali Shapiro: 50:09

So, yeah, I just want to give credit. That is not my term. There's a woman I forget what her name is, I'm like totally blanking right now but she is the one who came up with seven types of rest. So I just want to make sure.

Philip Pape: 50:21

I wasn't saying you trademarked it or anything. It's like Kleenex, you know, like we. Just I think that's a problem.

Ali Shapiro: 50:25

Like I really think like you know, giving sourcing, rooting back from where the people who have contributed, because it's all a conversation. We're, all you know, having conversations together. So I just want to give her credit, but I feel like I'm. So If you Google seven types of rest, she has a TED Talk.

Philip Pape: 50:41

It will come up I'm going to do that Seven types of rest, because that again is a very nebulous topic when people talk about rest and recovery. You know, even when I try to do it.

Ali Shapiro: 50:52

It's like okay, creative rest different. There's active and passive, physical rest um emotional rest, and I'm forgetting um a couple of the other. Oh, sensory rest, okay.

Philip Pape: 51:01

Which you know, so I know I know what that is, without even having explained to me. I need some sensory rest, Not right now. This is actually a very rejuvenating conversation, so I and L for the needs as well. Uh, oh well, I, what do you mean from tail? Yeah, so I did T and a. Oh, you mean Cause we're revisiting it? Yes, please, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 51:25

Um, so I is. When we're feeling inadequate, we need a compassionate witness, and this is important because I want to define it, because a compassionate witness isn't someone who's going to try to swoop in and fix it for you, right? So a lot of times when my clients are like, oh, I'm struggling with my food, and why did I fall off track, it's like they'll go to like the one person that knows they're struggling and they're like you're beautiful, don't worry about it. Or someone's like why?

Ali Shapiro: 51:49

are you still hung up on that, you know, and it's like, okay, you want someone who trusts that you can figure it out if you just have the space to like have a soft landing. So I just wanted to define that for people Cause, and that's why working with someone like you or me and Truce with Food, you know, is like someone who's like I know how to support you in this with, like you know, making you more self-sufficient. But you first have to like know what's happening and all that stuff. But a compassionate witness with anything, right, like even you know, like my mom friends, like sometimes I'm just like, oh my God, I'm so tired. Like you know you could take care of yourself, whatever. But when you have a toddler and are working and daycare closes and just people being like I know, right, like, it's just like I feel seen.

Ali Shapiro: 52:34

And that actually brings me to L, which is loneliness, and loneliness. We all have a need to feel significant. We have a need to feel like we are contributing and that we matter. And so, really, when we're feeling alone, we have to feel like even our struggles are important and matter. So, like, even if you're my client who's in the cupboard struggling with parenting, it's like, okay, what's important to me here, how you know, do I need to get support? How do I want to show up to myself? What do I value, maybe, is is that need that that needs to be significant, but those are the four needs that that come with those triggers, and then, as those get satisfied, you stop turning to food because the real safety or belonging need is being satiated Is being met.

Philip Pape: 53:17

So that wraps the whole thing up really nicely. Right, because you've got the true needs. You're satisfying them no longer with food. All right, beautiful, I love that. Is there anything else we didn't? It's a lot, I know. And is there anything else we didn't cover that you wish I'd asked about in this whole realm? No, I think it's a great question.

Ali Shapiro: 53:35

I really appreciate you sharing your story because I think that prompted everyone else who's listening to think about that for themselves. Yeah, I could probably do that more.

Philip Pape: 53:44

Maybe I have a little bit of a wall when it comes to that stuff, but it's all good, all right, cool. So I know there's a lot going on in your world. I would like listeners to be able to find you. I also know you have a program launching this month and normally we don't do big promotions on this, but for this specifically, I do want people to know everything you just talked about. They can get that kind of support, so tell us where they can find you.

Ali Shapiro: 54:05

Yeah, if people want to go to alishapirocom. And, like Philip said, my Truce with Food program, which this is actually the 14th year I've run it, or it'll be the 15th year, and it's been featured in all sorts of media. Well, my client's weight loss success has been featured in media, but it's a six month program that helps you author a new story around belonging to find food freedom. No white knuckling required. It's six months, 13 group coaching calls with me and a research-based client, proven framework Cause. Again, frameworks create choice, help you become more self-aware versus um.

Ali Shapiro: 54:37

I attract a lot of perfectionists who, you know, think it's like oh my God, am I going to have to white knuckle and perform this perfectly? And it's not that. And then we also do cover the food piece around blood sugar and gut health. Um, and so yeah, yeah, because it's an integrated program and it is life-changing and people can go to alishapirocom backslash truce with food group program and you can see a ton of testimonials. It's a very thorough page. I'm a very thorough, research-based person, but I also, you know, academia and theories can only take you so far, so you'll see the real world applications. So, for people who want deep and practical, this is like and really want to learn that consistency, staying on track, and to eliminate all, like free up all the energy that the food noise takes and puts that in a different direction for 2025. This is the program for them.

Philip Pape: 55:28

Awesome. I will encourage people to check it out and I'm going to include the exact link. We'll make sure we get the right link in there for folks, so take them right there from the show notes and I encourage you, if you're listening, if this sounds like something you could use the help with and reduce your emotional, get some more emotional rest, allie seems like the right person to go to. So, allie, thank you so much for having this amazing conversation, sharing your expertise, your wisdom, your positive energy. It was great to have you on.

Ali Shapiro: 55:52

Thank you, philip, for having me, and I'm looking forward to having you on Insatiable Me as well. Looking forward to it.

The 6-10 Biofeedback Model for Faster Fat Loss (Balanced Scorecard) | Ep 270

Book your FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment and get personalized guidance on which metrics to track for your situation

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Your fat loss. Is. Stuck. You're even tracking your food and weight. But something's not working.

What if every plateau, stall, or setback could be prevented by knowing which body signals to monitor and how to interpret them?

Learn how to use the Balanced Scorecard approach to organize critical body feedback into a powerful dashboard for fat loss.

I'm revealing my 6-10 Biofeedback Model that I use with every client to identify issues before they happen to keep fat loss moving.

Main Takeaways:

• The 6 core metrics in your baseline fat loss dashboard to measure essential daily feedback

• The Balanced Scorecard framework to organize metrics in 4 categories

• The 10 advanced metrics that provide deeper insights when strategically tracked

• Using multiple organized data points helps prevent plateaus by revealing early warning signs across all aspects of health

Book your FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment and get personalized guidance on which metrics to track for your situation

Unlock Fat Loss with the 6-10 Biofeedback Model

Fat loss isn’t just about tracking calories and stepping on the scale. Your body is constantly sending feedback—signals that can help you break through plateaus, optimize your training, and achieve results faster. But are you listening?

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we dive into the 6-10 Biofeedback Model, a comprehensive system for interpreting your body’s signals. By combining six foundational metrics with advanced tools tailored to your individual needs, you can create a balanced scorecard for fat loss and avoid the frustration of flying blind. Let’s explore how biofeedback reveals the missing pieces in your fat loss journey.

The 6 Core Metrics You Should Track

Start with these six essential biofeedback markers to build your fat loss dashboard:

1. Stress: High stress disrupts recovery, ramps up cortisol, and stalls fat loss. Monitor your overall stress level on a scale from 1–10.

2. Sleep: Both quantity and quality matter. Poor sleep affects hunger, recovery, and muscle building.

3. Hunger: Use hunger ratings (1 = very hungry, 10 = no hunger) to gauge whether your calorie deficit is too aggressive.

4. Energy: Track daily energy levels to assess recovery and ensure your nutrition supports performance.

5. Recovery: How well are you bouncing back from training? Low recovery might mean overtraining or insufficient nutrition.

6. Digestion: Gut health affects nutrient absorption, inflammation, and overall well-being.

Applying the Balanced Scorecard Framework

Borrowing a tool from engineering, the balanced scorecard organizes biofeedback into four perspectives:

1. Physical Health: Focuses on physiological markers like digestion, hydration, and skin health.

2. Mental and Emotional Well-being: Includes mood, body image perception, and cravings.

3. Recovery and Adaptation: Tracks how well your body handles training stress.

4. Sustainability and Progress: Assesses adherence and how well your plan fits into your real life.

By categorizing biofeedback, you can identify imbalances and take action proactively.

The 10 Advanced Metrics for Faster Progress

For more complex cases or plateaus, consider these advanced tools:

Physical Health

1. Bloating and GI Distress: Identify food intolerances or meal timing issues.

2. Skin Health: Changes in complexion can reveal nutrient deficiencies or inflammation.

3. Hydration: Monitor hydration levels through urine color, thirst patterns, and skin elasticity.

Mental and Emotional Well-being

1. Mood and Mental Clarity: Fluctuations may signal the need for nutrition or training adjustments.

2. Body Image Perception: Track your subjective view of progress to reveal emotional patterns.

3. Cravings: Differentiate between hunger and emotional eating triggers.

Recovery and Adaptation

1. Heart Rate Variability (HRV): Indicates stress and recovery capacity.

2. Libido: A sensitive but telling metric for hormonal health and stress.

3. Menstrual or Hormonal Symptoms: Track cycle regularity and symptoms for better insights.

Sustainability and Progress

1. Lifestyle Flexibility: Rate how well your plan adapts to real-life demands.

Creating Your Fat Loss Dashboard

1. Start Simple: Track the six foundational metrics weekly.

2. Add Advanced Metrics: Introduce advanced tools as needed, based on specific challenges.

3. Look for Trends: Don’t react to single data points. Use patterns over time to guide decisions.

4. Adjust Proactively: Use biofeedback to tweak calorie intake, training, or recovery before hitting a plateau.

Biofeedback = Faster, Smarter Fat Loss

Tracking biofeedback transforms your fat loss journey from guesswork to precision. By listening to your body’s signals and responding appropriately, you’ll avoid burnout, sustain progress, and build the confidence to tackle any challenge.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you track your food, your weight, a few other things, but you still feel stuck with fat loss and you wonder is there something I'm missing? This episode is for you. Most people focus just on the scale or a few other metrics beyond that, but your body is complex. It is constantly sending feedback that could speed up your progress if you know where to look. So today I'm sharing my complete 610 biofeedback system that I use with clients to show you how to learn about those signals that can unlock faster progress, to create sort of a dashboard for fat loss. Most importantly, you'll learn how to stop flying blind and start making Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:57

I'm your host, philip Pabe, and today we're taking your fat loss game to a new level. We're going to harness the power of biofeedback, not just the basic tracking although we will establish that but a complete system used to organize and act on crucial data, especially when you're not quite sure what's going on from that top level surface feedback. Picture a pilot with all of his gauges or her gauges and instruments flying through the sky. I actually have a pilot's license I haven't flown in years, but we were taught to look at multiple instruments. I think there are at least six that we looked at, not just airspeed or altitude, and we're doing this because we want to trust the instruments but also correlate them and ensure a safe, efficient flight and kind of understand okay, if this instrument's broken over here, we can trust these other three to tell us what's going on and your body is similar, right, the scale is one of those many instruments your food, your lifting performance just a couple of those instruments. And when you know how to track and interpret all the other signals, especially the biofeedback during fat loss, that is how you unlock the knowledge of what's going on, the confidence of what's going on with your body, so you can make faster progress, and then that's what allows you to get through the plateaus and have fewer setbacks.

Philip Pape: 2:13

Now, before we get into it, if you want some help implementing what we talk about today and just chat about your situation and what's holding you back and where you want to go, book a free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment with me. It is not a sales call. Anybody you ask and I could give you references knows that all I do is try to help you on the call, give you some clarity, send you on your way with some actions, and it's up to you. If you want to implement or if you want to reach out for more help, that's fine. Or go to our Facebook group or join our Physique University, I don't care. As long as I'm helping you go from this lack of clarity to a little bit more clarity and steps you can take. So if you book that call it's called a rapid nutrition assessment we can identify what metrics from today's episode you should focus on first and then help you create a clear action plan. If that's something you want to do, just click in the show notes to schedule your call, or go to witsandweightscom and click the giant button in the top right. All right, that's enough plugging for today.

Philip Pape: 3:10

Let's get into today's episode and break it down into three segments. First, I want to cover the core six biofeedback metrics that I recommend everybody track, no matter what. All my clients use this in our check-in forms and it's kind of that essential minimum foundational knowledge for fat loss. If you're not even tracking these, that is huge low-hanging fruit for you. Second, I'm gonna introduce the what's called balanced scorecard framework, something I learned in my engineering career and show how it helps you organize your tracking into some different lanes or different perspectives and make the data actionable for you. And then we're going to look at the 10 advanced metrics that can accelerate your progress when you strategically and that means you don't need them all you may not need any of them, but in some cases, individual circumstances call for pulling out the big guns, and that is why I'm putting these all together today six, 10, the six that everyone should track and 10 that you may want to consider for more advanced situations. All right, so let's talk about the six foundational signals that everyone should track during fat loss, and you, as an individual, might track other things beyond this. That's totally cool with you. This is what I want everybody to track as a start.

Philip Pape: 4:31

Number one stress your overall stress level. A scale of one to 10 for pretty much all of these could be helpful. Some of these metrics we talk about will have other ways to measure them or we'll have multiple sub measures that you could potentially use, but not to make it complicated, we're just going to go through each one. So stress high stress is one of the biggest saboteurs of fat loss. It ramps up your cortisol. It makes um fat, you know. It makes you store belly fat. It slows down recovery. There are so many reasons. Stress is the number one thing on this list because high stress is going to prevent fat loss, no matter how hard you cut your calories, how how hard you train, how hard you do anything else. So stress is number one.

Philip Pape: 5:06

Number two is sleep, so almost as if not more important than stress for a lot of people, both the quantity and the quality. And again, for my clients, I ask them to rate on a scale of one to 10, but I talk about both. Are you getting enough sleep? Are you getting enough quality sleep, restful? Some clients will go to a deeper level than that and track their, you know, with an aura ring and track REM and deep sleep and stuff. But just start at the top. How is your sleep in general? Because that impacts your hunger hormones, that impacts your recovery, your cognitive performance, your muscle building, everything All right?

Philip Pape: 5:40

Number three is hunger. So again, you can rate this one to 10, and when you are not in a deficit, hunger should be rated pretty high, as in you're not very hungry. One here is very hungry. A 10 is not hungry at all and you can tell if your deficit is too appropriate or too aggressive. Too appropriate is appropriate or too aggressive based on sometimes based on this alone. If I see a client's hunger trending downward, it's a proactive signal that we're about ready for a refeed, a diet break, or to let off the gas a little bit on the deficit. And it would behoove you to be very aware of that as you move forward, so that you can be successful and modify how you eat, what you eat and the dieting itself, all right.

Philip Pape: 6:27

Number four is energy. Now, energy is kind of a vague term, right, but what I'm referring to here is your energy level throughout the day, especially around workouts. Now, we all have that 3 pm. Well, many of us have that 3 pm crash. Right, it comes from cortisol and you're tired and you're working all day. But we want to distinguish the fluctuations in energy levels from the baseline and try to understand what is causing it to go up and down. Right, low energy signals, maybe too large deficit, not enough carbs, not enough food around your workout, you know, training too hard or too often All of that can be helpful. Too hard or too often, all of that can be helpful.

Philip Pape: 7:07

Number five is recovery. So I look at this as a corollary to energy, but frankly it's a corollary to sleep and stress as well. They're all related right. Hence my pilot metaphor earlier. These are all part of system. So recovery is how well you're bouncing back from training, how much or little soreness you have. I don't want people to be chasing soreness. Once you get into a program and you're consistent with it, you shouldn't have a lot of soreness and you should be able to recover and bounce back to the gym and really go after the next session.

Philip Pape: 7:36

Poor recovery means something with volume, something with nutrition. It could be because of a lack of sleep or too much stress. So again, it's all tied together. It could be because of a lack of sleep or too much stress. So again, it's all tied together. And then the last one here is digestion. Gut health is so crucial for nutrient absorption, for revealing food intolerances, for whether you have enough fiber. Are you eating a diverse variety of foods? There's a lot of things that our gut can tell us, and so when I say digestion, it's at a very high level. Are you bloated? Are you gassy? How are your bowel movements right, things like that. And then you can drill down from any of those. So it's pretty simple.

Philip Pape: 8:14

But a lot of you probably aren't even tracking these at like a weekly level and all you have to do is, on a scale one to 10, track these. That's what I, we want to be able to kind of organize and interpret all this data. Because it's one thing to have the data, that's step one. It's another thing to know what the heck to do with it, right, and what is important versus what is temporary. Let's say, for example, if you've got all your family over this week and your whole routine has changed and your whole food situation is different, it's going to affect all of your biofeedback measures, and yet it all may be irrelevant because the context, the environment, has changed for that brief moment. But if something becomes more chronic, that is more of an indicator. Similarly, something might decline, like hunger, might get worse during a dieting phase, and yet it's perfectly normal, or it's a trade-off that you're willing to make, right. Or if I'm your coach and I see hunger goes from no hunger at all 10, to a seven and it stays there, I'm not that worried, right. But if you start getting into six and five and four territory, okay, then we have to have the conversation of what needs to change.

Philip Pape: 9:26

So the engineering framework I'm going to bring into this today is called the balanced scorecard, and it's just a way to track performance across multiple dimensions. In the aerospace world we had something called the control tower, right, funny? You know fancy names, silly names for these things. Just imagine pillars or columns. If you're a spreadsheet person, you could just imagine these as being different columns of things that you measure and then the rows are the specific metrics. Okay, that's all I'm going to talk about spreadsheets today, I promise.

Philip Pape: 9:57

So why don't we apply this ourselves to fat loss? And we can use four scores or four perspectives, four pillars, let's say. The first pillar is your physical health. These are your direct physiological markers. The second is your mental and emotional well-being, that's, your psychological state, because that is very telling. The third is your recovery and adaptation. This is how well your body handles the stress. It's a little different from the physical or the physiological. And then the fourth one is your sustainability and your progress. These are factors that affect your adherence, which so many programs and people and podcasters neglect when they talk about things like weight loss is adherence. So if we have a framework like that. We can not just focus on one thing and get obsessed with it and neglect others. We think of it as a system and we can organize our thoughts.

Philip Pape: 10:52

So guess what I'm gonna do for you? I'm gonna share with you the 10 advanced metrics that I thought about as the ones that I most likely go to with clients beyond those six that you would find helpful. There could be 20 beyond this that I might reach to in advanced situations, but I think these 10 are very important and I'm going to break them down by the four pillars that we just talked about. So let's start with physical, and I'm going to give you three advanced metrics here. The first one is bloating and GI distress, and this is distinct from the digestion that we talked about earlier. This is actually a more advanced tracking of your meal timing, the combinations of food that you eat, and then the stress responses, all of which trigger discomfort. So you're really creating a correlational tracking mechanism to track, potentially, food intolerances and food combinations and whatnot.

Philip Pape: 11:50

And I've had clients who have advanced conditions where they can't handle certain types of foods. They need low FODMAP diets, low histamine diets, something like that, but rather than just restrict everything or go through a random elimination diet. We can actually go the other direction, so to speak, and actually start tracking what happens with your response as you eat what you eat, to really dial in on what might be causing the discomfort. So that can be helpful. I know it sounds kind of vague, but it is an advanced metric to identify hidden intolerances, to optimize your meal composition, your balance, for whatever the issue is for you. It might be nutrient absorption, right. It might be your gut health, it might be an intolerance or a condition that you have, so bloating and GI distress. Tracked against timing, food combinations and stress responses that trigger them. All right.

Philip Pape: 12:43

The second one, under physical, is your skin health. If your skin complexion changes or you have acne patterns or skin dryness, these can and they come out of nowhere. These can reveal some sort of systemic inflammation, autoimmune conditions, nutrient deficiencies, hormonal shifts, something like that. And oftentimes people will go to a band-aid for that, like I'm just going to have collagen protein or something. But we really want to understand when something changes with our body that there could be something going on. But we really want to understand when something changes with our body that there could be something going on.

Philip Pape: 13:15

And the third advanced metric here is hydration, not just the you know yes, you should drink sufficient water and monitor your intake but also look at signs like the color of your urine, your thirst patterns, your skin elasticity, and so that's why I bring this up along with skin health back to back, because your skin can also tell you a bit about your hydration. And, of course, hydration impacts your other top level biometrics hunger, energy recovery. So if we're having an issue there and all the other things are checked off, I'm going to look at hydration. And hydration can sometimes be more complicated than just the amount of water you eat. It could be what you drink. It could be what you're eating, your source of electrolytes when you're eating and drinking this stuff. Some people they might drink, quote unquote enough, but they do it all at one time of the day. There's a lot that goes on there.

Philip Pape: 14:02

So bloating, ngi, distress, skin health and hydration are three advanced metrics you could consider for physical, for mental and emotional. The first one here is a big one and some coaches I know have this as a top line metric. I actually have it as a slightly more advanced metric because and let me just tell you what it is it's mood and mental clarity, and I think a lot of times my clients will talk about this anyway as part of their wins, their challenges, their roadblocks, their energy, their recovery, and there's no need to ask yet. Another separate question about mood is what I used to have it in there and I actually got rid of it because of that reason. It was kind of redundant. But for some clients and for some of you listening, tracking things like your level of focus, your alertness, your emotional stability throughout the day you know that are that aren't correlated with things like a menstrual cycle or any other condition. Sudden mood changes, brain fog can signal that your nutrition plan is affecting what's going on, or your training or what have you before things stall and you can do something about it. And then the next two you're going to understand why these are all part of mental and emotional and some of these can be interrelated.

Philip Pape: 15:11

The next one, which is the fifth advanced metric, is body image perception. Uh, yeah, you can track that. You're. It's. It's your subjective view of progress, like how your clothes fit and how you look in the mirror and your progress photos and all of that how you feel about your body. You can track that. Now be careful, right this if, if you have, um, an existing issue with body dysmorphia or some unhealthy emotional patterns around body image, that's outside my scope of practice. I'm strictly talking about a self-rated perception to kind of get awareness on that and reveal whether that's tied to your patterns, like your eating patterns, and that's really all I'm going to say about that, to be honest. But it is something worth tracking.

Philip Pape: 15:54

And then the next one, under mental and emotional, is your cravings. Now, this is important because I just had a back and forth with a client the other day and we were talking about hunger and she kept saying, well, it's not hunger, it's not hunger, it's cravings. And I said, okay, I get what you're saying. There is a distinction there, absolutely Thank. Thank you for clarifying the language we want to use, because hunger, desire for something that's not necessarily food, that could be a craving, even though it could be food, so intense desires for foods or tastes for example, salty, sweet but also a desire for something to reduce the stress that you have, right, whatever the trigger might be. And this can indicate an emotional need that needs attention. It could also indicate the need for a strategy, a simple strategy in place, some level of tracking or pattern, interrupt or changing up your environment or having a food swap. I mean, there are a lot of different strategies for this. It's a whole separate topic, and I think I might even do a upcoming episode that goes through my hunger scale and diary to dive into the difference between physical and psychological hunger, which falls in this category. And then we get to the third pillar here, which is recovery and adaptation, and I have three here as well. So this brings us to overall number seven of the ten heart rate variability, hrv.

Philip Pape: 17:14

For those of you who wear a watch or a ring, you can measure your HRV, which is effectively a measure of your nervous system's recovery state. Low HRV can sometimes predict that you're going to have stress from overtraining before the performance actually drops, and so what it could tell you? And it's funny because your ring might actually say, hey, we noticed your HRV is low, you may not be in a great state to train Now. I take those with a big grain of salt, because the last thing I want you to do is you feel great, you've got energy, you're good to go, and your ring says, man, maybe you shouldn't train today, and then you don't train. That's the last thing I want to do it's more of correlating this with the other indicators of potential overtraining or excessive stress. And if you know, you've just been pounded into the wall by life stress, by chronic stress. It's good to be aware of that proactively, to see if you need to modify your training in some way to accommodate that, not necessarily skipping your training session, but modifying it in some way. And that's where a good coach can really help you figure out what that might look like.

Philip Pape: 18:20

Number eight, which is the second one in recovery and adaptation, is your libido, your sex drive, your sex function. And again, I used to have this as one of my main metrics, but it's very situational. Let's just say it's a sensitive topic, right, and sexual drive and function are an indicator of hormonal health, right? Testosterone, for example. And your stress load too. If you have too much stress or you're excessively dieting, you're getting burned out. That's going to affect your libido and it's tied to other things like energy recovery and so on. So it's a good thing for some of you to track. Many of you don't even have to. You know, uh, you know it kind of intuitively, but you can do it objectively.

Philip Pape: 19:00

And then number nine, which is the last one under recovery and adaptation here is your menstrual or hormonal symptoms. So this is men and women. For women, it's your cycle, you know, tracking uh, how regular it is and what symptoms do you have associated with it, either on a regular basis, like as your baseline, which can be helpful for you, or if you're working with a coach, to understand if any modifications have to be made or deviations to that, which is also really important. And then for all clients, for men as well, just monitoring any symptoms that are important to you that would suggest an imbalance with your hormones, understanding that during fat loss you're going to have a down regulation in all your hormones anyway. So again, you have to take it as part of the system. And then the last category here, and also the last metric. The last category is sustainability and progress.

Philip Pape: 19:49

And so the metric that I want you to track is lifestyle flexibility, how well your plan adapts to your real life. Now, I don't actually track this as a number with clients. I don't have clients tell me oh, I was an eight this week on lifestyle flexibility. We can tease that out from the other metrics and their reporting of how their week went and how we discussed their check-in. But when you do this yourself, why don't you create a separate metric on its own that scores you for that week and says based on following my plan, this is how easy or difficult it was to stick to the plan, given my life right Social events, dining out without anxiety, travel schedule disruptions, family meals, celebrations, work, stress, deadlines. And what's interesting about this is it's kind of flipping it around, isn't it? It's saying, okay, I have my plan, I believe it's the best plan for me, but this week it was like a three because life happened.

Philip Pape: 20:47

If your plan was a lot more flexible than when life happens, the plan may be rated higher than that, and so when you get a three or a four and if you get periodic or repeated versions of that low score, it tells you your plan is simply not flexible enough for you. Instead of trying to fit your life to your plan, try to fit your plan to your life. So that is the last metric. And what's super fascinating about all of this and again, I hope you don't feel overwhelmed like you have to use all 16 of these metrics. Use the first six to start and then get inspired by the other 10 and you may have your own that you want to use, but the goal is to reveal a solution to a plateau before you hit the plateau, like when my clients, when their hunger or cravings are increasing, or their recovery is increasing, or their recovery is declining or their energy is low and by low I just mean like one or two ticks lower than last time. It gives me a clue.

Philip Pape: 21:44

Now we might not have to change things, but there's a good chance. I'm going to say you know what, let's ease off on the calories or let's take a refeed or let's take a diet break. And oftentimes what happens is my clients tell me before I tell them, because they check in and they say you know what, based on having you know, you made me score this stuff and I noticed that all these numbers have ticked down. I didn't quite realize that that was the case. Maybe it's time for a little bit of a break. And then you come back stronger and you continue losing the fat while others crash into a wall and kind of beat their head into the wall over and over. And that's the power of having multiple data points that describe your overall body, your system, organized in a way that shows you how they connect. You're proactive instead of reactive with your fat loss All right.

Philip Pape: 22:28

So when we talk about physique engineering, that is what we mean Not guesswork, but being data driven. Not hoping what you're doing works, having concrete, specific data showing you what's working and what needs to adjust. If you're like that's too hard, well, you're just not going to get the result you want. There's a little bit of effort involved. You could also reach out for support. You could join a community like our free Facebook group. You can reach out for coaching. You can join our physique university, which is a more budget friendly group version of coaching for a lot of you who may not be able to afford or want to work with a one-on-one coach.

Philip Pape: 23:03

And the first place to start is just reach out for a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment, because that is a call. That is not a sales pitch. Or we're just going to get on the phone. We're going to talk about the weather, and then we're going to dive in too, because that's what you always start with, right, and then we're going to dive into hey, which metrics or what data or what form of tracking or what kind of nutrition or training approach might you be missing? That will help you make progress. A simple, I'll say, two or three step action plan. That's it. I want you to click the link in the show notes to schedule that, or go to witsandweightscom and click the link in the top right and we'll have that call and you'll get some clarity. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your body is always giving you feedback. The key is knowing how to listen and respond. All right, I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

How to Eat Thousands of Calories to Gain Muscle and Weight (Not Just for Hardgainers) | Ep 269

Download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint for the exact steps to structure your diet, calorie surplus, macros, and more to gain muscle at the optimal rate while minimizing fat gain or go to witsandweights.com/muscle.

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Do you struggle to eat enough calories to support muscle growth? Have you tried "just eating more," only to feel sick or frustrated when the scale won’t budge? What if eating more calories could actually be enjoyable—even with dietary restrictions?

Philip (@witsandweights) shares 12 proven strategies to help you break through plateaus and gain weight effectively. Inspired by listener Jim from Michigan, who tackles weight gain challenges while playing hockey in his 70s, Philip dives deep into strategies that fit any lifestyle.

Whether you’re a “hard gainer,” have specific dietary restrictions, or simply want to build muscle sustainably, these tips will transform how you approach nutrition. With practical advice like adding calorie-dense foods, leveraging liquid calories, and making your meals more appealing, you will be empowered to fuel your body for growth without the misery of force-feeding.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:34 Strategy #1: Adding calorie-dense food to your meals
5:08 Strategy #2: Incorporate liquid calories
6:17 Strategy #3: Enhancing meals with smart calorie boosts
6:50 Strategy #4: Focusing on the foods you enjoy
8:06 Strategy #5: Increase your meal frequency
9:15 Strategy #6: Don't drink water before your meals
9:52 Strategy #7: Embrace calorie timing
11:22 Strategy #8: Make your food visually and socially more appealing
13:28 Strategy #9: Have high-calorie snacks always available
14:26 Strategy #10: Sneak calories into drinks
15:43 Strategy #11: Plan your meals around fats
17:40 Strategy #12: Track and adjust by keeping it simple but systematic
19:43 Managing stress and recovery to improve appetite
22:59 Outro

Episode resources:

• Gain weight episode: The Most UNDERRATED Fat Loss Secret Making You FATTER (and Sabotaging Muscle Gain Too)

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS
  

How to Eat Thousands of Calories to Gain Muscle and Weight (Not Just for Hardgainers)

If you’ve ever struggled to gain weight and muscle, you know the frustration of eating until you feel stuffed, only to see the scale refuse to budge. It’s even more challenging if you have a small appetite or dietary restrictions. Fortunately, there are practical strategies to help you eat more calories and enjoy the process without feeling miserable.

Whether you’re a hardgainer trying to pack on mass or simply someone looking to support your muscle-building goals, these 12 strategies will make a big difference. Let’s dive in.

12 Strategies to Eat More Calories Without Feeling Miserable

1. Add Calorie-Dense Foods
   Focus on foods that pack a lot of calories into small portions, such as avocados, nuts, seeds, and oils. These can be easily added to meals to increase calorie intake without increasing meal volume significantly.

2. Incorporate Liquid Calories
   Liquids don’t fill you up as much as solid food, making them a great way to sneak in calories. Think shakes, smoothies, or whole milk-based drinks with added protein powder, nut butter, or fruit.

3. Enhance Existing Meals
   Boost your current meals by adding calorie-dense ingredients like butter, cheese, or coconut milk. For example, cook eggs in butter or mix nuts into your oatmeal.

4. Eat Foods You Enjoy
   Choose foods you genuinely like to make the eating process enjoyable. You’ll naturally eat more when you enjoy your meals, which makes hitting your calorie goals easier.

5. Increase Meal Frequency
   If eating large meals feels overwhelming, try eating smaller meals more frequently. Instead of three large meals, aim for five to six smaller ones throughout the day.

6. Avoid Drinking Water Before Meals
   Water can fill your stomach and suppress your appetite. To maximize your ability to eat more, save your water intake for after your meals.

7. Capitalize on Hunger Windows
   Eat larger meals during times of the day when you’re naturally hungrier, such as breakfast, post-workout, or before bed. Use these windows to load up on calories.

8. Make Food Visually and Socially Appealing
   We’re wired to eat more when food looks good or is enjoyed with others. Plate your meals attractively and enjoy them in a relaxed, social setting to increase your intake.

9. Have High-Calorie Snacks Available
   Keep easy-to-grab, calorie-dense snacks on hand, such as trail mix, protein bars, or nut butter packets. These can help you stay on track when you’re busy.

10. Sneak Calories Into Drinks
    Add calorie-dense ingredients to beverages you already drink, such as whole milk or heavy cream in coffee or tea. This is an effortless way to increase your intake.

11. Plan Meals Around Fats
    Fats are the most calorie-dense macronutrient, with 9 calories per gram. Build meals around fatty foods like salmon, avocado, or nut butters to easily add calories.

12. Track and Adjust
    Use a food tracking app to monitor your calorie intake and make gradual adjustments. Start with a slight surplus and increase incrementally to avoid feeling overwhelmed.

The Secret Ingredient: Stress Management

It’s important to remember that stress and poor recovery can suppress your appetite and digestion, making it harder to eat enough. Prioritize relaxation, quality sleep, and manageable training to keep your body in an optimal state for eating and recovery.

Ready to Build Muscle?

If you’re serious about gaining muscle, download my free Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint, which gives you the exact steps for setting up a successful muscle-building phase, including calorie targets, macros, and tracking tips. Head to witsandweights.com/muscle to get started today.

Eating more doesn’t have to be a chore. By using these strategies, you can fuel your muscle-building journey in a sustainable and enjoyable way!

Send questions to @witsandweights

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Have you ever felt frustrated trying to gain weight and muscle where, no matter how much you think you're eating, the scale just won't budge? Maybe you've been told just eat more, but you feel stuffed and sick every time you try. Or maybe you're dealing with certain dietary restrictions that seem to make everything harder. Today, I'm giving you 12 specific strategies that make eating more calories not just doable, but actually enjoyable. You'll learn exactly how to break through your plateau without force-feeding yourself or feeling miserable. These are proven methods that work, whether you're 20 or 70, whether you have dietary restrictions or not. So if you've struggled to gain weight and build muscle, stick around. You're about to learn exactly how to make it happen. You're about to learn exactly how to make it happen.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling a challenge that doesn't often get enough attention how to actually eat enough calories to support muscle growth. I want to give a special shout out to Jim from Wayne, michigan, who inspired today's episode. He sent in a text message and he wrote hey, philip, I've been listening to your Wits and Weights podcast for about six months. It's great. I realized that the majority of people want to lose weight. I've been skinny my entire life 5'9", 140 pounds. I'm still active. I play in an over 70 ice hockey league once a week. I was diagnosed with celiac disease 20 years ago. Not fun, but it could be worse. I know I need to be in a calorie surplus, but I usually struggle to eat 2,000 calories a day. Could you please do a full-length podcast on how to gain weight and muscle? So thank you, jim. This is exactly the kind of specific problem or challenge that I want to hear from you as listeners about, so I can deep dive into it. On the show, and while we recently covered some fundamentals of gaining weight to improve your body composition, that was episode 257 at the end of 2024. I'm going to link that in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 2:06

Today we're going to focus specifically on 12 strategies to get the calories in, just to be able to eat them all when you struggle with appetite or dietary restrictions. By the way, this could apply to anyone at any calorie level, not just hard gainers, even if you're, say, a woman who's trying to get back to maintenance for the first time and you feel like it's too many calories, these strategies can still apply. So before we get into it, though, you might be wondering okay, that's great, but why do I even want the calories in the first place? How do I build muscle? What is the strategy there? For that, I'm going to ask you to download a free guide that I have called Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint, and that's going to give you the exact steps for doing that, for setting up your muscle building phase, from the optimal surplus and rate of gain to the macros, to what to track and even a specific example of a real bulk. So click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash muscle to download that free guide, and that'll set up your muscle building phase for success. And then, when you're running that, you'll say okay, now let me listen to this episode to understand how to get all that food in, because it's not working for me quite yet.

Philip Pape: 3:15

All right, so I'm going to break down these 12 strategies into three sections. First, we're going to cover four strategies to add calories without feeling stuffed. We're going to cover four strategies to add calories without feeling stuffed, then four strategies for the timing and habits that could make eating easier. And then, finally, four strategies to implement it sustainably. So let's start with adding calories without feeling stuffed. Strategy number one is pretty straightforward, and that is adding calorie-d dense foods to your meals. This is about making every bite count, focusing on foods that pack in as many calories as possible into as little volume as possible, which you'll find that a lot of these strategies are the opposite of what you would do during fat loss. So keep that in mind in case it sparks some curiosity there. So I'll give you some example Add avocado to things, if you like avocado.

Philip Pape: 4:04

They're very calorie dense and we're talking mostly whole foods here. By the way, doing it with whole foods. Obviously, you can add in processed foods and we're going to touch on that occasionally here but there are calorie dense whole foods. So avocado, egg sandwiches. You can drizzle olive oil over just about anything, but I'm thinking vegetables or rice. You know, when you're making rice, add olive oil in there, or a tablespoon of olive oil is 120 calories. You can add butter when cooking, which makes it taste great anyway, like even better. I love putting butter on steak. When I'm cast iron, I'm frying it in a cast iron skillet and then I finish it off in the oven.

Philip Pape: 4:40

Always keep in mind saturated fat intake, of course, but again, we're trying to get more calories here. And then nuts and seeds, incorporating them into everything. You can put them in salads, you can put them as a side, you can eat them straight up. And remember that fat, as a macro, has more than twice as much calorie density as protein and carbs. It has nine calories per gram instead of just four for the others. So take advantage of that macro.

Philip Pape: 5:06

So that's number one is calorie dense foods. Strategy number two is to incorporate liquid calories. All right, liquids just don't fill you up like solid food. There's a reason for that they are effectively pre-digested. You think that's gross. I'm sorry, but that's. You know, when we're having liquid, anything that would normally be a food, you're taking a step out of the process and so you're able to eat more of it. So we're thinking shake, smoothies, whatever, and honestly I'm not going to be giving you a million recipes here but a base of some beverage like whole milk has a lot of calories.

Philip Pape: 5:39

I love whole milk, just in general. When you're trying to gain weight, it goes down easy. And then there's brands like Fairlife that have higher protein and Fairlife chocolate milk that has even more calories. So whole milk, a banana, some peanut butter. So that's our calorie density right there. A couple tablespoons of peanut butter. So let's see 150 calories for the milk, 100 calories for the banana, 200 calories for the peanut butter, and then whey protein. Even a scoop of whey protein is 120. So that's over 500 calories that you can drink in just minutes. And if you have dietary restrictions, like Jim's celiac disease, just make sure it's gluten-free, okay.

Philip Pape: 6:16

Strategy number three is adding extra calories to existing meals by just enhancing what you already eat with some smart swaps. So like cooking eggs right in a slab of butter instead of using a spray just to make sure you add those calories. Adding an extra slice of cheese to your sandwich, mixing nuts into your oatmeal, using coconut milk in whether it's a curry or a soup, something like that. So that's a very simple one of just like seeing how you can add calories that are almost unnoticeable and don't really fill you up in any way to existing meals. So strategy number four is to focus on foods you enjoy. Now, this might seem obvious, but it's one of the top factors of a sustainable diet.

Philip Pape: 7:02

No matter what you're doing fat loss or gaining You're going to eat more consistently when you actually like your food period. So it's one of the tenets Don't be guilty with what you eat. Make sure food satisfies you, make sure it meets your goals and make sure you enjoy it. So you don't want to force feed yourself bland chicken and rice if you hate it. I don't care if you're in fat loss or gaining right.

Philip Pape: 7:24

Force feeding of any kind is not going to be good and I hear oftentimes people say how do I get more calories? Or I feel like I have to force feed myself, or calories, or I feel like I have to force feed myself, or I need to force feed myself to get the calories. What do I do? And it's like no, you don't need to force feed yourself. Let's listen to this episode, all right. So that was it for strategy number four, just focusing on foods you enjoy, because that, mentally, is going to cause you to be able to eat more. Just a simple one there, in case you're trying to force feed anything. Now I want to move on to the second group of four, which is related to timing and habits. So strategy number five. And so, not to confuse you, but I'm keeping the numbering from one to 12, but I separate into four groups of or three groups of four.

Philip Pape: 8:05

Strategy number five is to increase your meal frequency. Just as simple as that. But again, a lot of people are not doing that. People get in a rut and the way you eat is just the way you've always eaten and it's based on your work schedule or how you pack your lunch or whatever. But you've got to be creative and say okay, instead of three huge meals, I'm going to have five meals. I'm going to have three modest meals and two small snacks, right, or six or even seven. I mean, you'd be surprised how many you could fit in if you're creative about it. And a lot of people are stuck in this, like intermittent fasting mindset or feeding window mindset, or not eat too early, too late. It's super flexible. It's super flexible. So meal frequency itself can be effective for you because you won't get too full on any one meal and, again, you won't feel like you're force feeding yourself. So if you're only eating three times a day and you're trying to gain weight, you're going to have to eat at least four or five, just almost across the board, no matter who you are. I'm still in my gaining phase now. I definitely eat six times a day, maybe seven, and it just makes it so much easier because then each feeding is reasonable in size, it goes easy on your stomach, it digests well, you feel great throughout the day, and so on. All right.

Philip Pape: 9:20

Strategy number six is don't drink water before your meals. Now, some people would advocate for this strategy in general for a number of reasons I'm not going to go into. But it's a good one here, because most people don't think about this. They just drink when they drink. Water fills your stomach. It reduces appetite. Drinking water before your meals could be a great technique when you're in fat loss, but to try to get in the calories it's going to be very tough. So just start with the food and then fill it in with the liquid, unless you're just having a liquid meal, like we talked about earlier. So don't drink water before meals is strategy number six.

Philip Pape: 9:52

Strategy number seven is to embrace calorie timing by taking advantage of your body's natural hunger windows. So what I mean by this is you're going to be hungry, even in a gaining phase, at certain times. You know when that is, and for a lot of people that is first thing in the morning. So don't skip breakfast, pre and post workout right Now you may not be that hungry before your workout, but you should be have some hunger after your workout. Take advantage of that to really gobble up the fuel. And then before bed, and you're like, well, that's shocking. Before bed, I don't mean like eat at 9pm and then go to bed at 10pm, I mean, like you know, 6 or 7pm, like as late as you can push it where it doesn't affect your digestion or your sleep, and it may be a smaller feeding, it may be an extra kind of dessert slot or a pre-bed meal, that's like two hours before bed. That's smaller, right. Think like Greek yogurt with berries, that kind of level. Or I like a casein pudding with almond milk protein, where it's kind of light but it's still got a decent amount of protein in there and some calories, maybe a couple hundred, 300 calories to finish up your day. And it goes well with the frequency thing, right, I mentioned eating more frequently, because then you might have, okay, first thing in the morning, pre-workout, post-workout, lunch, afternoon snack, dinner and then pre-bed, and that's like seven feedings right there, and that's on a training day. Maybe on a rest day you have one fewer feeding and then you have to just be aware of the fact that you need more calories per feeding. All right.

Philip Pape: 11:22

Strategy number eight is to make your food more appealing visually and socially. I would say we naturally eat more when food looks good, right. Why do you think we love going to restaurants and having somebody else make these nice plates of food? It comes out heck, even going to like a greasy diner, and it comes out. You're like oh, this looks delicious because you didn't make it right. Or when you eat off of somebody else's plate, somehow it tastes better.

Philip Pape: 11:49

We went to Montreal years ago and I was amazed at the delicious food there. But not just that, it's how they plated everything. I was like everybody is a chef, is a culinary gourmand over here. We would just go to a diner for breakfast and the fruit was like cut up into, was sculpted into fancy shapes. Everywhere we went was like this. It was like an expectation and we wanted to eat it. Let's just put it that way.

Philip Pape: 12:15

So when food looks appetizing, when we're eating with other people, when we're relaxed, when we're not rushing and even sometimes when we're distracted, which normally is a big no-no because we want to eat mindfully. But when we're talking about a positive distraction, I'll say, like eating with our family at the dinner table. We can potentially eat more that way. So how you take advantage of that is obviously, besides going to restaurants when you're at home is the food just looking good, being food that you enjoy, being a good, interesting combination, fun recipes and eating with other people, and making sure to kind of load up on the food when you're doing that, because that's kind of tricking yourself to eat more without realizing it. If you will, it's just very interesting. And even being relaxed and not rushing and being mindful, sometimes you can actually eat more naturally because of the lower stress. It kind of depends on the person. So make food visually and socially appealing is the overall tip there. So make food visually and socially appealing is the overall tip there.

Philip Pape: 13:16

All right, let's go to the final segment here, which is really about, I'll say, implementation and sustainability. So these are some more day-to-day practices that you can have. So strategy number nine here is to have high-calorie snacks always available, like to pre-prep to meal prep. High calorie snacks, simple right. Always have ready to eat calorie dense foods available trail mix, protein bars, nut butter packets, pre-made sandwiches there's so many things and, yeah, I'm okay with protein bars. You don't want to be eating five a day, but look for those opportunities. Trail mix is a great one, because then you can get like nuts, dried fruit, even throw in some M&Ms in there the kids' version of trail mix. Again, we're trying to gain weight here, so we've got this flexibility. Think about that and pre-make your snacks, just like in a fat loss phase, where I recommend that you pre-make high-protein, low-calorie, like lower-fat snacks. Same idea here Just prepare higher-calorie snacks for yourself and easy things to grab and pack and go on a hike with or throw in the car or whatever. All right, that brings us to. We got three strategies left.

Philip Pape: 14:28

Strategy number 10 is to sneak calories into drinks. So we talked about sneaking calories into food earlier. This is really when you have a drink that you're already having, like coffee, have it with whole milk. Now, if you like your coffee black, and that's just how you drink your coffee. But a lot of us put cream or something in there. Put the most calorie dense thing in there. Now, right, put whole milk or heavy cream. Put heavy cream in there there, actually, almost. I don't want you to go bulletproof coffee because I don't like that huge amount of MCT oil in there. But that's a high calorie beverage. You know. Protein shakes made with whole milk instead of water or almond milk, having juice juice is okay occasionally, right Between your meals, you know, combining this with the liquid thing that we mentioned earlier. So just sneaking calories into everyday drinks that you already drink. Now I wouldn't want to go to like regular soda, for example. I'm not going to go that far. It's more of, I'll say, whole food type additions to what you already drink. Actually, tea works for that as well. My wife loves having milk with tea, kind of British style. I actually joke with her. I'm like, oh, are you having some tea with your milk? And she knows that and it tastes great. I get it All right.

Philip Pape: 15:43

Strategy number 11 is to plan your meals around fats.

Philip Pape: 15:49

Because fats are the most calorie dense, I want you to build meals around them.

Philip Pape: 15:54

So salmon with butter sauce, pasta with cream-based sauce, nut-crusted chicken or fish Meaning. What I mean by that is, unlike the earlier tip of just like adding fat, this is making sure that you pick meals and recipes that are fat-centric, that are fatty, that are rich. You're like oh, that's what I'm hearing on this podcast is very interesting, right, because it kind of flies in the face of sometimes what you think about with nutrition advice, but it's about your goals, it's about your context. We're trying to get more food in here, so enjoy the rich foods you know. Eat like the French, let's say right, whole eggs are great during this time. So think about fat centric meals as opposed to the protein and carbs, because you're probably going to get enough protein anyway if you're already there when you're not gaining. And then the fats are where the calories come, and then the carbs are everything else. Your carbs shouldn't be low, unless you're deliberately on a low-carb diet. But people forget about the value of fats for increasing calories.

Shonnetta: 16:55

Hi, my name is Sharnetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do.

Philip Pape: 17:40

And then the last strategy is to track and adjust by keeping it simple but systematic. I want you to think of progressive overload for your calories. Okay, first you have to understand your baseline. How many calories do you actually need? Hopefully, you're tracking and you know what your surplus is and you know what your maintenance calories are. So you know that you're burning, say, 2,600 calories and you're in a 300 calorie surplus. You're going to eat 2,900 calories and you feel stuffed when you eat even just a little bit above your maintenance. Well, aim for not quite the full amount on week one, right? Aim for 2,700 and then 2,800, then 2,900, right? Very simple thing. I do this with clients all the time. I give them a very achievable goal for the next couple of weeks before their next check-in so that we're not feeling like we're overreaching and feeling like we failed just because we didn't miss it. Focus on one meal at a time, right, and one day at a time and a really good way to do this is if you're using a food logging app like Macrofactor is to take what you normally eat and then, for tomorrow, pre-plan and pre-log one change to a meal or one additional snack or meal per one of the strategies we talked about today. So don't change everything all at once, just tweak and add, tweak and add and it might be adding more fat, it might be adding an extra feeding, might be adding a shake in there, whatever makes sense, so that you're not obsessing or worrying too much about doing all of this. And then you're gonna adjust based on how well you feel. This is where biofeedback can come into play, like your hunger signals, and it's the opposite of during fat loss. So our goal here is not to feel like we're force feeding, like we're stuffed. So anyway, that's really putting it all together. The way I categorize these in the three groups may be a little bit arbitrary, but I wanted to keep it organized for you as you go through this and then you could use the timestamps to find each strategy. We'll just list the strategies right there in the show notes for you to make it easy so you can dive in.

Philip Pape: 19:40

Now. The one thing that you might be missing that has nothing to do with food and I wanted to address it and it could be the best way to increase your intake is managing your stress and recovery, just like during fat loss, when you're in a gaining phase but you are chronically stressed or you're under-recovered, right, that might be due to a lack of sleep, maybe overtraining, although that's not usually the issue. Your body actively suppresses your appetite and digestion. Now I've told you many times the opposite, that it can cause you to have a higher appetite and actually over-consume. But remember, we're in the opposite. We're in the opposite world here, the mirror world, alternate reality of gaining, where everything kind of flips on its head and when you're really stressed you may actually have trouble eating and your digestion might be off your gut health, things like that. And so sometimes, if you can barely eat 2000 calories and then you go on vacation and you relax, you're like I had no problem putting away 3000 plus calories a day without thinking about it. Why is that? It's because you're relaxed, you're not stressed. So it kind of goes both ways and I want you to keep that in mind, which is great because it means we should always be striving to manage our stress and recovery that way. It's not like we have to change the principle during a gaining phase.

Philip Pape: 20:55

So I want to just recap the 12 strategies for you just to reinforce in your mind real quick. I'm just going to list them. Number one calorie-dense foods. Simple, very high-level strategy. Number two liquid calories. Number three enhance your existing meals. Tweak them.

Philip Pape: 21:13

Number four make sure you're eating things you enjoy. Number five add more meals or feedings. Increase your meal frequency. Number six don't drink water before meals. Number seven use the eating windows that you are already hungry with, like first in the morning, after your workout, before bed, you know, afternoon whatever Take advantage of those to add in the calories. Number eight make sure it's visually and socially appealing when you're eating. Number nine pre-plan or pre-prepare calorie-dense snacks, like think the trail mix, for example. Number 10 is to tweak your everyday drink that you already drink, like your coffee or tea, and add in some calorie-dense liquid to that, like heavy cream. Number 11 is to prioritize fatty foods in general. Just think of rich, creamy, fatty, nutty cheese, all those things. Prioritize those. And then the last one is to track and adjust systematically and use a form of progressive overload to kind of ease into this and work your way up.

Philip Pape: 22:15

Now do you remember Jim's question about struggling with celiac disease? Notice how all these strategies they work with any dietary restriction. It's about the principles, right? Not the specific foods. I gave you some examples, but we're not about specific foods here, so you can, no matter what you're dealing with. You can apply these principles All right. If you want to put all these strategies into action in a gaining phase, remember I have a free muscle building nutrition blueprint that builds on everything we covered today in terms of the setup, like what are the calories and macros, what is the surplus, what should I be tracking, what is the biofeedback, what are the measurements, and then an example of a real bulk. To get your copy, click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash muscle to download that right now. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, building muscle isn't just about lifting heavy, it's about fueling heavy too. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Dynamic Resistance Using Tonal vs. Free Weights for Muscle Gain (Troy Taylor) | Ep 268

Download my free Progressive Overload Guide to learn how to gain muscle, strength, and performance like never before.

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How can dynamic resistance change the way you build muscle? Are free weights holding you back in certain lifts? Could technology offer a safer and more efficient way to train without compromising results?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives deep into the science of strength training with Troy Taylor, Senior Director of Performance Innovation at Tonal. Troy shares his expertise from analyzing data on over 200 billion pounds lifted, offering a fascinating perspective on how dynamic resistance, like that provided by Tonal, compares to traditional free weights for muscle activation, hypertrophy, and strength development.

Explore how technology can enhance your training with real-time resistance adjustments, eccentric overload, and accommodating resistance—all while ensuring safety and efficiency. Whether you’re a seasoned lifter or starting, this will expand your understanding of resistance training science and innovation.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:21 How Tonal differs from free weights
7:12 Tonal features: Spotters, eccentric loading, and tracking
13:28 Who benefits most from Tonal’s capabilities
16:43 Strength training data analysis and trends
23:32 Why older adults can see faster strength improvements
25:28 Morning workouts and their impact on consistency
27:23 Tracking gains and hypertrophy progress
31:59 Program customization and progressive overload
34:56 Customized weight training, fatigue, and recovery needs
41:42 Leveraging lengthened partials and eccentric overload
47:22 Tonal’s new Training Lab launch in NYC
49:04 Outro

Episode resources:

• Instagram: @strengthsciencetroy

• Website: tonal.com

• Training Lab: tonaltraininglab.com

• Facebook: @TonalStrong 

• Youtube: @TonalStrong 
  

Dynamic Resistance with Tonal vs. Free Weights for Muscle Gain

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we explore how dynamic resistance stacks up against traditional free weights for building strength and muscle. My guest, Troy Taylor, Senior Director of Performance Innovation at Tonal, shares cutting-edge insights from analyzing over 200 billion pounds of lifts.

You’ll learn how digital resistance adapts to your strength curve, why Tonal feels 20–26% heavier than free weights, and whether that translates into better muscle activation and growth. Troy also explains how technology like real-time resistance adjustments, eccentric overload, and detailed data tracking can complement traditional lifting.

Key Highlights

• Why Tonal Feels Heavier:
  Tonal’s electromagnetic resistance eliminates inertia, requiring continuous effort throughout the range of motion. This makes every rep feel harder compared to free weights, where momentum can provide assistance.

• Advanced Features for Strength and Safety:

  • Dynamic adjustments: Tonal can automatically adjust resistance mid-lift if it detects you’re struggling, acting as a built-in spotter.

  • Eccentric overload: Push 100 pounds on the way up and resist 125 pounds on the way down with the touch of a button.

  • Chains and bands emulation: Adjust resistance to match your natural strength curve, providing consistent tension at every point.

• Who Benefits Most from Tonal?
  While Tonal can accommodate up to 250 pounds (equivalent to 300+ pounds in free weights), it’s ideal for hypertrophy, functional fitness, and accessory work. It’s not designed for competitive powerlifters working with extreme loads, but it excels as a versatile, tech-enabled home gym.

• Consistency Through Data:
  Tonal tracks every rep and provides insights into muscle fatigue, progress, and performance trends. Users who engage with their data and follow structured programs see higher consistency and better long-term results.

The Science of Dynamic Resistance

Tonal’s innovative design enables unique training benefits:

• Enhanced Muscle Activation: Research from High Point University shows similar muscle activation to free weights at a lower absolute load, making it an efficient option for hypertrophy and strength.

• Data-Driven Programming: AI algorithms progressively overload your lifts based on performance, ensuring continual gains while minimizing plateaus.

Building Strength and Hypertrophy

Whether you’re rehabbing an injury, maintaining muscle during a fat loss phase, or chasing strength and hypertrophy, Tonal adapts to your goals:

• Recovery programs with lighter weights ensure consistency without overloading.

• Dynamic resistance modes help target specific phases of movement, such as lengthened partials for hypertrophy.

Closing Thoughts

Tonal’s dynamic resistance system isn’t here to replace free weights but to offer a complementary tool for modern lifters. With cutting-edge technology and real-time data, it’s reshaping how we approach training—whether you’re lifting for longevity, muscle growth, or strength.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

New research shows that dynamic digital resistance feels up to 26% heavier than free weights, but does that translate to better muscle growth? Today we're getting into the science with Troy Taylor, who's analyzed data for over 200 billion pounds lifted. As the Senior Director of Performance Innovation at Tonal, you'll discover the latest research on muscle activation, learn how dynamic resistance adapts to your strength curves and understand exactly when to use each training method for optimal gains, even if you're currently all in on free weights. If you're curious about technology and optimizing muscle gain, you'll really enjoy this episode. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:10

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're examining the science behind dynamic versus traditional resistance training with Troy Taylor. Now Troy leads performance innovation at Tonal, where his team analyzes millions of workouts. Understand the effectiveness of dynamic resistance. As the former high-performance director at US Ski and Snowboard, he helped athletes secure over 500 international podiums using traditional methods. Now this experience lets him evaluate where each training modality might be most effective for muscle development, and today you're going to learn what research shows us about muscle activation in these dynamic versus free weight training. You're going to look at the scientific mechanisms behind things like perceived effort and actual gains and understand how to optimize your training using one or both approaches. Troy, welcome to the show.

Troy Taylor: 1:45

Thank you so much for having me on. I look forward to our conversation.

Philip Pape: 1:48

So I wanted to kick off with a study that hopefully I have my facts right 2021 at the Human Biomechanics and Physiology Lab at High Point University and they compared the muscle activation in Tonal's product to free weights, which is the main point of skepticism for many of us, of not only feeling the load and feeling the heaviness of it, but actually getting the result and getting the muscle growth. And I think they found something like 23 or 26% heavier it felt heavier based on RPE. So what's actually going on there?

Troy Taylor: 2:20

Yeah, so it was Kevin Ford's lab out of High Point University. He's an awesome biomechanics researcher. 200 plus peer-reviewed papers. And so what we heard from our community hey, I can curl 20-pound dumbbells in the gym all the time, but 18 or 17 pounds on tonal feels really difficult. What's going on? And so we basically wanted to commission peer-reviewed research to be able to look at that. And so what we did, or what they did, it's an independent study, I just get the results.

Troy Taylor: 2:49

It looked at four different movements. I know there were curls in there, there was deadlift in there, there was a couple of other movements and they did two things. Number one, they worked out they took 15 or so subjects, moderately trained, and took them to an estimated one RM and free weight and an estimated one RM on tonal and compared the two. And what we found out is right in that 20, 25% range is tonal feels 20, 25% heavier than free weight, and we'll talk about why that might be in a second. But essentially they were lifting for the same maximal effort. They were lifting less on tonal than they were on free weights. And then they did a back-off training session where they looked at 10 reps at, say, 70% of your 1RM. I'm pulling this from memory but I think it was right around there. And then they looked at surface EMG for muscle activation and what's happening at this lower resistance, because 70% at lower 1RM is a lower weight. What's happening with the muscle activation from a surface EMG point of view? And in that they found basically the same EMG activation at the same relative percentage of 1RM, but an absolute lower muscle mass and surface EMG. It's got its pros and cons. It's very good. It gives us an understanding of the muscles activated. Emg does not equal hypertrophy necessarily, but it does give us an indicator that the muscles are activated at lower weights. So the question would be why? I think it's probably the question that you asked me and I took a long way of answering it, but I think we didn't start like. This is not studied in the research necessarily, but like from our own internal data, we've been able to analyze this.

Troy Taylor: 4:18

A vast majority of it comes down to moment of inertia and the impact of inertia. When you're lifting with a free mass, it's Newton's second law Once it moves it wants to carry on moving. How we can clean and jerk and snatch is the bars going up and it gives me time to get under it, and so once you're putting speed into a free weight bar, it wants to carry moving up fast for a little period of time. That doesn't exist as much on tonal. It's not that there's no inertia, but there's much less inertia. The motor, as soon as you start pushing or stop pushing against, it essentially stops very quickly. So you have this lower level of inertia. Therefore you have to push through the entire range of motion for every movement, which means that your estimated or your 1RMs and your muscle activation essentially can be reached at a lower weight. I'd say that's some made up percentage, but 70, 80, 90% of the variation is based on that.

Troy Taylor: 5:11

There's also a component of stability, depending on the movement pattern. On deadlift it doesn't really matter Deadlifting on tonal and deadlifting in free weight, stability doesn't really come into it. You're lifting a heavy object off the ground but say something like bicep curls, it's a cable machine. That's what tonal is, and so it's slightly different. Right, there's a bit more stability in going on in terms of variations of shoulders and sort of your shoulder girdle and stability around there, potentially within the sort of the wrist and also the elbow, and so you might get additional activation. I think they probably looked at bicep brachii or something like that in the research study of that stabilization component which would add to a slightly lower estimated 1RM but potentially increased or similar muscle activation.

Philip Pape: 5:55

Yeah, okay. So there's a lot to unpack and a lot of really cool things I want to touch on, because I was just talking to a friend of mine just before this call. He was showing off some of the new equipment that his YMCA has that introduces instability, such as water-based weights things like that, perturbation, training type kind of Perturbation training, yeah, and we talk about how there's pros and cons, depending on what your goal is right.

Philip Pape: 6:14

Sometimes you want a ton of stability if you're trying to target a muscle group, and sometimes you want instability, which then tends to reduce the overall load, but then systemically you get some benefits. So you're kind of touching on those things. And the thing with tonal and I know we haven't even, like, exactly said what it is People can Google it. We're going to talk about it, Is it? It does remind me of a cable machine and it reminds me specifically of like, when my cable machine sometimes needs to be oiled up or like has more friction than I intended in the pulley and so you notice it gets even more. You know more of that resistance through the range of anyway, bad analogy.

Philip Pape: 6:48

The point is it's very different than just a free weight, like you said, because of the um, the strength curve and the momentum and all of that. So I'm trying to think of where the best place to start on this is. I think our audience is people who are used to traditional lifting and I want to understand what's similar, but then also what makes Tonal unique and maybe an advantage over traditional lifting. I just threw like a bunch of stuff at you. Go ahead, man. Yeah, no.

Troy Taylor: 7:13

I'm not sure my product marketing would love the analogy on the stickiness.

Troy Taylor: 7:17

But it's extremely smooth, but you do have to pull through the entire range of motion. There's no freebies. That's the way I can think. You imagine a rotational chop or something on a cable machine. If you get that moving in the first quarter of it you don't really have to pull because the momentum is taking you. The rest, with tonal, it's almost like working with chains, which we can talk about. It's maintaining the load, it's not increasing the resistance, but it's maintaining the resistance through the entire range of motion, which makes it feel different and technically harder. So let's get there. So where to start? I would say what is Tonal and then we can go from there.

Troy Taylor: 7:51

Tonal my VP of product, farman, gave me this because I struggled to give an elevator pitch it's an entire gym that fits in your space with the options of personal training. So what makes it an entire gym? About it yes, it's a cable machine. It's a dual stack cable machine in that there's two arms that come out. You can do 250 plus movements, from deadlifting and squatting and bench pressing to flies, to attach a barbell, to attach ropes, to attach handles If you see on my Instagram to attach any other accessory that you might want to attach a cable machine, even things like sled drags and stuff like that, if you want to get a little outside of the box so you can replicate many, many, many movements maybe not all, but many movements from a gym. It fits in your space. If you're watching this on video, it's behind me. It attaches to your wall. It's about five inches thick. It looks kind of like a big screen TV. To some extent it's designed to be in your home, whether it's a home gym or in your living room or your spare bedroom. It can go in your garage, but the idea was to kind of make it aesthetically pleasing so more people can put it in, because we know the more obvious it is, the more likely you are to use it. It's good for us from an engagement point of view. It's good for the consumer because, from an engagement point of view and with personal training, yeah, we have 300 or so programs and adding every month 5,000 workouts.

Troy Taylor: 9:10

Myself and my team write a lot of those along with coaches, from everything from I want to build muscle mass to I want to lose fat, I want to do strength training where I want to do yoga or I want to do all these different variations. So it's got a whole kind of components there, and then we have, you know, virtual coaches that are on screen that can show you the technique. And then we use technology both table position data and also AI, pose estimation models from a camera to be able to tell you are you doing that movement well, and give you coaching cues of yeah, hey, we've noticed that, you know that shoulder stability on that overhead press seems to be a little off, or you seem to be moving really quickly on the eccentric and not controlling it, and we can give you coaching cues for that. So it's that, and it provides resistance via a motor rather than through iron or traditional weights, and so I think the easiest analogy for people to get their heads around this is it's the Tesla or electric car to a combustion engine in some aspects, and there are people that love both, and there are pros and cons to it or differences between them the fact that it's electromagnetic we have that lack of inertia we talked about. So it's a motor that's providing it, but also that allows us to one monitor highly, highly in detail 50 Hertz, hertz, 50 times a second, every position, every force.

Troy Taylor: 10:26

Imagine you've used a gym aware or a linear position transducer, or sometimes an imu attached to a bar that measures your bar speed. We do that every rep, every exercise, every person, close to 10 billion reps or something like that. But you can also as, as well as monitoring it it's closed loop you can change that resistance in real time. So an example of that might be hey, chains, I want to hit the chains mode. As you increase, as the cables extend, we can make it linearly heavier. Touch of a button, you want to add an eccentric, accentuated, eccentric loading. Touch of the button, you can add eccentric loading, and so it's 100 pounds going up, or concentrically, 125 pounds eccentrically.

Troy Taylor: 11:09

And it allows us to build AI algorithms like, say, a built-in spotter mode. So if we detect you are struggling, you're halfway up a bench pressure, you're in your home gym, you're shouting for your wife or your husband or someone to come and help you, we can peel the weight off. We can do one of two things Peel the weight off one pound at a time until you move it, so it automatically allows that. Or two, just switch the weight off if you're not moving, automatically done, it's gone, disappeared. You hurt yourself. Done, there's no resistance anymore, immediately. So those are some of the ways and changes that we take traditional training and make some things better.

Philip Pape: 11:45

Yeah, no, I love. I'm a huge fan of technology. I mean I have I always have the latest Oura Ring and Apple Watch and like phone and tablet. I just love that stuff. So it's really cool to see how you're using things in very creative ways like that, with the real-time resistance, for example, like there's no way you could do that unless you had this kind of system or just the monitoring. I mean, I'm a huge fan of tracking and monitoring.

Philip Pape: 12:09

We talk about it all the time, and to do that with a traditional gym would require lots of extra equipment and expertise to even do that properly. And then the spotter as well, because people with home gym safety is huge. And again, when I hear people benching without spotter arms, I'm like what are you doing, Right? So one question that comes up then when we compare to traditional load is those of us that are trying to build a big base of strength and we like to push big lifts and high loads, something like a squat, and you're a 300, 400 pound squatter or you're a four or 500 pound deadlifter. I know the limits, just pure numbers wise are like 200. And maybe that's going up in the next version. Um, how does that compare and how can you? Can you replicate that, or is that just a different use case?

Troy Taylor: 12:47

Yeah, so as we record this podcast, 200 pounds is the max limit for Tonal. We talked about how that feels, 20, 25% lighter, so it feels like 250 pounds of free weight. And as of the 8th of January we announced because this podcast will release after then Tonal 2, which goes to 250 pounds. And so if you think about that, times by 20 or 25%, you're now over 300 pounds of equivalent resistance from a mass. That's, I think, the limit of where you can go. And then it's like if you're training 1RMs and you can 1RM 500 pound deadlift, are you going to do your max strength training on top? No, we're not that use case.

Troy Taylor: 13:28

The number of people that are lifting 500 pounds on a deadlift are probably not that many, while it's feasibly technically to do that. On electromagnetic resistance you start making trade-offs, mainly price and cost, because we have to have bigger motors that draw more power. You need special voltage in your house to be able to power that and then we have to beef up every single component to not be able to lift 500 pounds. But you have to make safety factors, factors of safety 3.75 times the amount of weight you can lift. So you have to make all the components 15, 16, 1700 pounds and so it just exponentially is not worth it. So if that's your goal and you're trying for one RMs and that's where you're not, then tone is probably not the product for you, for that circumstance Doesn't mean it can't be a good product for accessory training and other things.

Troy Taylor: 14:15

I'd also say if we say we're at 300, 315 pounds of free weight equivalent, if you're training you're a 500 pound deadlifter or maybe slightly less, but you're training, you know you're a 500 pound deadlifter. Or you know maybe slightly less, but you're training 6, 8, 10, 12 rep petitions. You're probably right in that kind of range. It's probably your 1RM work that we can't do or your very low rep work, but you know lower percentages of your 1RM. You're probably out. So we're really excited about that change in that you know there's only 10% ish of our users that actually max out the machine. But I'm one of those 10% on deadlifts and some of our other community, and so we wanted to be able to raise it up to 250, which subjectively I've never had no research on this Like, yeah, I can deadlift 350. I can just about get 250 for a single on total. It's maybe a bit skill training too and your ability to do that, but it feels pretty heavy.

Philip Pape: 15:10

That's cool, yeah, no, I mean, I can definitely imagine, even for the strongest folks. And again, you're not talking about competitive power lifters or anything here.

Troy Taylor: 15:17

Let's start with the population. But even those- 35, 55-year-olds is target audience. We have definitely 18 to 80-year-olds, but it's probably people like me and you who are relatively strong, but not necessarily I'm mentioning you in my level of strength, which is probably not fair but relatively strong, but not competing on the powerlifting stage.

Philip Pape: 15:38

Yeah, yeah and for sure. Given my own experience with running all sorts of programs, probably 80, 90% of the work you're going to do would fit in that envelope. For tonal, if not more especially hypertrophy work, you know bodybuilding type splits and whatnot, working out in the eight to 12 rep range and stuff, I definitely see the benefit. And for developmental variations, like you said, maybe you go to the gym once or twice a week to get the big heavy stuff and then you've got your tonal. For everything else it's convenient as a home gym option.

Philip Pape: 16:05

I do yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, exactly, that makes sense. Yeah, and I even have clients that don't have tonal on this. Still, they'll go to the gym for this and they'll have the home gym for this. So it's a very common thing to kind of split that up, since you have all this data, and not just data in the moment for the lifter, but all the I think you 200 billion pounds of lifts or something like it's a really amazing number. What kind of patterns are you seeing that? I don't know what we should talk about specifically, but either progression rates comparing to traditional resistance insights that are that surprise you guys, and maybe we're like are informing the future of the product. You know, tell me about some, some of what you learned from the data.

Troy Taylor: 16:43

Yeah, and so, yeah, I think it's where we really support. Last year, the state of strength that I think was we were around 200 billion pounds, then it's more now. I don't even know how many billion, but it obviously increases every time anyone lifts, and so you get both just the amount of lifted, and then you get to track people longitudinally anonymously. But we first released the product late 2019, not a ton of users back then. You're a small startup, but as we add more people and more things, that data set grows, but also the longitudinal tracking we forward another five or 10 years. You're like okay, I got a decade worth of data from someone that transitioned from being well, not someone from tens to hundreds of thousand people that transitioned from being 30 to 40 year olds. What can I learn? And so I would say right now what are some of the key insights? I think a lot of them, I would say, are proving out what research studies is generally shown in short term 12, 16 week studies, but maybe in slightly different populations and over longer times and also assessing some of the epidemiology research, so like cross-sectional, where I take a bunch of 34 year olds and I look at a bunch of 40 year olds and see what's the difference between them, and so some of the things that I really like out of that is number one.

Troy Taylor: 18:06

We see changes in strength are dramatic with people that train. That's not new. We know people get trained, they get stronger, but they get stronger and it's not just. It doesn't stop at 12 weeks. We're seeing consistent increases over the first year, two years. After two years it does start to plateau, for sure. You still make incremental increases, but looking at tens of thousands of people who are looking at the mean increases in terms of that, you're definitely seeing these increases. We're talking 70%, 75% I want to say average in the first year increases in strength across the general population. This is not a well-trained resistance population, this is not a beginner population. It's just looking at tens of hundreds of thousands of people and what kind of changes they seem to make. Those changes regardless of age. And actually our 55-plus-year-old members seem to make relatively larger increases in strength than our younger population, which I think is a great message for me as a 45-year-old and they start at a lower baseline, for sure, but relatively, and I think the research again shows this that we can build strength at any age. But we're seeing they can build strength as fast, if not faster, than our younger population and for significant periods of time. We're seeing that our female members particularly are lifting heavier year over year, week over week. They're relatively individually getting stronger and making those same changes, but they're also as a cohort of a population. If you got to look at, say, 25,000 females that joined in 2020 and compare it to 25,000 females that joined in 2020, people are getting stronger over time that join our product, both as they join and their increases once they get there. So I take that as a really good message for the message that strength training for female it seems to be getting out there at least taking this data and kind of interpolating or extrapolating it a little, which I think is super cool.

Troy Taylor: 20:01

And then one of the things that I think we have a unique vantage point because of the data is what is associated correlation, not causation, with markers of consistency, like. So maybe most of your audience actually probably just works out, because they're intrinsically motivated. It's part of their identity that we're in the autonomy stage. I'm going to work out if no one's looking, no one's monitoring. It's just who I am. It's what I've done always and I will always do the average person. Cdc says what 30-something percent of Americans self-select that they resistance train twice a week and I think that's probably self-selected, so it's a little high. So most of the population isn't training. So what can we see in the data that looks at consistency and what is correlated again, not causation with consistency. And we see people that join programs are more consistent than people that just do one-off workouts. Makes a ton of sense. You've got a bit of a plan. You've got a commitment device from behavior science. You're signing up to something. So maybe there's actually reverse causation, a bit of like people that sign up for programs are more likely to intend to do that. But we'd certainly see the increases there.

Troy Taylor: 21:14

People that check their stats and their progress tonal tracks every rep every time. You get to see your volume, your power. You get to see progress. Strength training changes are slow, sometimes they take a while, but with Tonal, with one pound changes you can get to. Oh, I've got a new estimated one RM. I lifted more volume than ever. My power on this move is higher than it's ever been. People that check their stats are more consistent. And then some of the other data is right, like consistency of timing of training and having the same window. People that train in the morning are slightly more consistent than those in the afternoon, and so these other data is around consistency, which we can either use to build into the product to make it more sticky pretty freaking sticky already, but more sticky and help people there or things that we can share with the broader fitness population. Hey, from this unique vantage point of data, maybe incorporating these things into fitness training program might help clients be more consistent.

Philip Pape: 22:06

I'm smiling because you should just be the co-host with me, like you're just selling every point that I want people to hear about training every time on this podcast. I mean I want to summarize some of what you said for folks just so they drill it in. But like the fact that you get so much stronger in the first year or two, no matter your age, is super empowering, right? Because the kind of the I like to call it the number one cause of death is frailty, which leads to falls, which leads to a lot of the other metabolic disease that ends up being heart disease or this or that. It's all tied together to strength muscle, you know and that. And so in one to two years, having 75% growth in year one not uncommon, you know. When I tell people in three or four months, you can like I'll say I'll say double. But I say double too. It's easy to remember. But yeah, you know, but like newbie, get it brand new People can really double it. So you're talking about the average 75% in one year and then another, probably another 50% in the second year.

Philip Pape: 22:59

It's massive and most people are far from their genetic limit at any one point and that life interrupts us and we detrain and so train for the rest of your life and you'll always probably improve in some sense. And then the rates of gain. Yeah, I've, I've seen that as well, troy, lately. How, for example, you know, women and men gain at roughly the same rate. Women often think they're disadvantaged. The only disadvantage is they have less muscle mass to start, but the rate is the same. And what you're saying is that it might even be faster when we're older, potentially. I mean, what's the theory there? That we're detrained, we've lost muscle mass and it kind of comes back faster, something like that.

Troy Taylor: 23:32

Yeah, potentially guesstimation here, but yeah, potentially. Our users are people that trained in high school and college and then stopped training for a long time. The data also points they're more consistent and this data doesn't normalize and so they're training more frequently and more consistently. Therefore they get better gains. They have more time. Maybe the young kids or the busy job or whatever it might be. Not many 55 plus year olds have both of those, but as a cohort population they train a little more consistency, which I think is probably also driving it Okay.

Philip Pape: 24:04

So, yeah, we're taking more of the retirement age as well, and, yeah, okay, got it. And then females women lifting heavier yeah, that's a big message we have here, and I try to get a lot of guests on, also experts who are women in that sphere, to talk about that, because there are a lot of misconceptions about what women can't do, which most of them are false at any age, especially peripost-menopause, where some of these myths start to come up, and we know it's just like with most people. It's the loss of muscle mass and the increase in body fat, and you just have to flip that around. And then I love the stats about consistency because you hit on a couple of things. One that tracking. I love tracking and measuring.

Philip Pape: 24:43

People complain about tracking being obsessive or whatever. But all evidence about tracking anything food, lifting, whatever, food doesn't matter shows better results, at least for a period of time, at least for a period of time. So you train yourself right and then you can get off that if you need to. But the fact that you have the ability to see wins at a more granular level, I think is important, right? It's why, when we talk about your lifting, you know you should track as many measures as you care about, that will change fairly frequently, so that you can see the progress and you're doing it automatically for folks. And then the morning training guys listening, if you've already listened to this show, I talk about it all the time. There is a difference for people. The morning is just you get going. It creates consistency. Don't say you're not a morning person. Stop saying that. Just try it out for a while.

Troy Taylor: 25:27

Anyway, Troy, yeah, I have empathy. I never thought I was a morning person, but I have a couple of young kids and a wife. That's morning personal. I'm a morning person now, uh, but I, some people. It's not feasible, right I?

Philip Pape: 25:40

got my job for sure, and that kind of thing.

Troy Taylor: 25:42

So I don't want to like and it's, it's.

Troy Taylor: 25:44

The data from ours is not like it's all if I don't go down in the morning I shouldn't work out, but I think what it is is less stuff comes up during the day that derails you, and so I think that's primary is my hypothesis of what drives it, and and so you can do that. And then number two is like, yes, if you do do it, the kind of the rest of your day goes better. We know the impact of you know training on BDNF and mood state and you know selective attention, executive function, all these other like emotional and mental and cognitive functions, in addition to the physiology. I feel more energy in those. But yeah, we definitely see that. In addition to the physiology, I feel more energy in those. But yeah, we definitely see that. And I personally I just said I just finished my workout, like 10 minutes before this.

Troy Taylor: 26:24

I finished my 10 minute workout. I just exercised snack, I got something in. It started my day right. I didn't have long. I had a podcast. I probably should have tried to do my hair a little better, but I'll go back after this podcast and try and get another 10 minutes in. And then you know, this afternoon I'll go and get, and I got 30 minutes of training, but it was in three 10 minute blocks, um, and that's how I structure my day.

Troy Taylor: 26:46

I don't do that first one, I don't do the other ones. It's like this like you've got to get that breadcrumb going.

Philip Pape: 26:51

Yeah right, there are a lot of benefits to morning training if you can do it. Another one is, I think, stress management we're seeing when you look at cortisol and stuff like that. So, okay, you talked a lot, so you mentioned strength a lot, which is music to my ears because I always start from that. But strength and hypertrophy, although they're somewhat proxies for each other, they're also not always correlated. So when it comes to hypertrophy, how are you measuring your population on that like circumference? Measurements and such we are not not directly.

Troy Taylor: 27:24

We have a beta of a computer vision-based estimation. I'm an applied scientist at heart and that kind of thing, so I want to be able to do everything really accurately. If I can't give you a good number, I don't want to just give you a number. My take on what the data says on a lot of that even I would go to bioelectrical impedance and arguably even something like DEXA on an individual level. It's at a population level DEXA is great, but an individual level, those variation charts are pretty significant Correct. So no, we haven't.

Troy Taylor: 27:56

I can take a lot of my guidance from some of the influences and researchers in this space. I feel most of them are more subjective on a lot of those measures. Yes, if I could measure your bicep girth or your waist girth or your hip to waist ratio really accurately, I would. I don't think that the technology is there right now. We don't measure hypertrophy directly, but certainly we have indirect measures, whether it's strength or volume lifted and things like that. And then we have a community 60,000 or so in our Facebook community and you get to see their transformations. I wouldn't say we're like a transformation tonal brand. That's not really what we do. We don't do before and afters. Try and sell you gimmicky, right? Uh, that's not a time but. But people want to post their progress, which is awesome until you get to see. So we don't. I would say. Also, muscles no tension, right, tension is what drives mechanical tension is what drives hypertrophy, and I think we have extremely strong evidence that tonal drives the same, if not more, mechanical tension yeah, for sure additional training.

Troy Taylor: 28:57

Therefore, you you can get the same kind of hypertrophy and I'd say it's. It's interesting because I would love to be able to measure it. It's what the vast majority of our users select as their goal right 40 something percent of our members say they want to build muscle. I have that goal as a 45 year old kind of things. Um, we have, we are seeing an increasing uh number that say they want to move, work, movement, quality, function, strength, basically this bucket of goals that lead to longevity, health, span. But the largest cohort of people, particularly our male population, say they still want to build muscle and that's where we focus a lot of our programming and time and attention for sure Got it Got it.

Philip Pape: 29:31

Yeah, and I only ask as a nutrition coach who helps clients track these things, and we just do classic tape measure and then use something like the Navy formula. It's not difficult to do that on your own. I just was thinking like the Zozo suit and things like that, where they've got the imaging and can kind of measure your circumference and then you know, I assumed you could do something like that Fast forward 18 months, two years, I don't know the timeline.

Troy Taylor: 29:55

I don't, like I told you, we have a beta product. That's just within our internal staff. I probably shouldn't share those things, but the technology will get there. If you think about the advances in pose estimation models and advances, I don't doubt, particularly for girths, it will get there. Body fat, muscle mass I think you're stretching.

Philip Pape: 30:10

I agree To do girth measurements.

Troy Taylor: 30:12

do it with accuracy, in my opinion, is a matter of time before it can get to that level, and I think that'd be awesome that we can do that and track those progresses.

Philip Pape: 30:22

Yeah, Cause once you have that, now you can. You've got things like the Navy formula as well as the new body roundness index, and I don't know if you're familiar with that. Yeah, Okay. So I did want to ask about okay, let's run it, run us through a single lift. So let's say the overhead press, one of my favorites. It's one of my favorites because I've always loved it, but also I had rotator cuff surgery last year and I couldn't do it and I've been working on my shoulder a lot to get back. So if you just want to get better at that, you want to improve your shoulder health and your shoulder size, what would the progression look like? What does the machine look like for an overhead press? Like what does the machine look like for an overhead press? Just with that example so folks can visualize this.

Troy Taylor: 30:59

Yeah, so myself and the team, the performance innovation team, so my team, my background is mainly from Olympic sport, but we've got people that spent a decade or so at Exos, one that did their PhD at P3, p Performance Project in Santa Barbara, which shows a lot of the basketball players and around there. What my team basically said how would a coach, how would a world-class hopefully coach, address those? And so, if we're taking something like an overhead press, we would split our library into some buckets of movement patterns, right, what is a regression or a beginning movement pattern that we might be able to do? That that is likely smaller in range of motion, potentially maybe lower resistance to start with, and then have progressions both in the movement pattern and in the resistance and the range of motion so we can build that up strength over time. And so, depending on what the specific case might be, we might have some quote-unquote remedial internal and know internal and external rotational work in there that will be programmed into that.

Troy Taylor: 32:02

We might have, you know, you know, a high base of support in a on a overhead press, you know, maybe a barbell versus a handle or something like that. Or maybe we go a handle with lower resistance, so it's a lighter weight. So you can work on the mechanics of doing that and then increase the range of motion that you can move that over time to progress it into something that would be more, more where you want to work, but depending on whether you're, you know, want to do that movement pattern, to be stronger at that movement pattern, you want to increase your 1rm or you, you know, want to build more muscle mass around that. Then we change the rex and schemes you know, obviously relatively increase, relatively load more on for a strength parameter, probably bias, more proximity to failure and volume for hypertrophy outcomes, and typically we would progress. I would say every program is a little different or can be a little different. I would say our default pattern is to more build from hypertrophy into strength than the other way around.

Philip Pape: 32:59

Okay, tend to go higher rep ranges. Wrap the reps as you go.

Troy Taylor: 33:03

Yeah, higher rep ranges closer proximity to failure into more strength-biased work. Lower rep ranges strength. It gives us the hypertrophy training and the generally slightly higher rep training. It doesn't have to be very high but slightly higher.

Philip Pape: 33:22

Rep training doesn't have to be very high, but slightly higher.

Troy Taylor: 33:23

Rep training allows us repetition of practice and skill. Yeah, that's huge, which itself is a component of that strength. Skill acquisition is something that we want to install. We know the drivers of um motivation. We talked about intrinsic motivation before. I like competency. I want to feel good about things like and then autonomy and connectedness, but self-determination theory, but competency. We want our members to feel competent, that they have the ability to do this lift well.

Philip Pape: 33:43

And then on that progression, since it has all the data and it knows you, let's say it's a I don't know three-day program, four-day program and the next time you overhead presses, four days from now, does the program tracks like your calendar? What if you miss a workout? Is it going to somehow test you into the new load?

Troy Taylor: 34:00

Yeah, it has a has a calendar where you can self-select it. It knows when your last workout was. As long as it's within a normal sort of range of window, um, it doesn't change anything, but it has muscle utilization. So we estimate the muscle utilization and fatigue for every movement. So, like you know, if your program was three days a week, say, but like hey, uh, the bros called me and we went and we benched super heavy on a Tuesday and like it wasn't part of the program on tonal, we'll track that data and say you're fatigued? Um, like we wasn't part of the program but we know that you did it and therefore we will, you know, say that you're fatigued. You get to be able to see that data of muscle utilization and muscle fatigue. Um, and, yeah, we can, we can adapt around that no, no, that's good.

Philip Pape: 34:42

Yeah, I'm just, I'm just it's. It's pretty cool when you can. I'm thinking again of consistency one, because people always have roadblocks, like now I have to think about my next workout and then how much weight do I lift the next time, and all these things. I was gonna say that we.

Troy Taylor: 34:56

We suggest every weight for every movement. We do a movement calibration or a strength calibration. At the start it's only four movements and essentially it takes you up to an estimated, probably like it's 10 or 8 RM, and then we estimate up from there. But from there we can estimate with an AI algorithm every single movement for every single pattern, so you get the right suggested weight. And then we have another algorithm that has progressive overload built in it.

Troy Taylor: 35:24

If we sense those last two reps, you're not in close proximity to failure. We're going to increase that weight by one or two pounds for the next workout and we do that a little more. Let's say I'm going to say the word aggressive, but a little faster earlier in your progress, because we know you're going to be making progress quicker and a little slower once you've been established lifting hey, I sure has been lifting for a while now on toner. I'm not increasing the load every single time, even if I say I've got like two reps in failure. I'm going to shoot like the machine's going to want me to show that to it a couple of times.

Troy Taylor: 35:52

Yeah that this wasn't just a freaky strong day and he slept great, ate great, took all the stress out of his life. Then he hit PRs. But I need to do it multiple times to do that. But essentially there's a progressive overload algorithm, so you're constantly being challenged in that variation.

Philip Pape: 36:10

Yeah, I love that. And another thing that came to mind when you were talking about the shoulder pressing it sounds like you can have therapy and recovery programs as well.

Troy Taylor: 36:18

Right, yeah, we have a recovery like default recovery weight mode. So super easy. You can just add recovery weights to any workout, any program. Hey, today I don't feel it. I slept terribly, you know, but had more alcohol than I probably should have. Whatever the reason is, hit recovery weights, everything drops to 80% so you can still do the training session again.

Troy Taylor: 36:37

Consistency Don't want to lose that habit, kind of things, but everything's a little diet things. And then the next time you can go back to your full weight. And then we have, like more specific programs where we will reduce the weight from your like what an estimated you know, one RM for that particular move will be for specific kind of purposes. Sometimes it might be for more like I don't know, a hypertrophy. We want to do myoreps and therefore we need to reduce the weights, or something like that. Or it could be for a therapeutic situation where someone you know we had some programs that are intended for absolute beginners and we don't want to push you we know enjoyment is super important. We know, um, we know that doms are a challenge to building consistency early. So let's try and take away that option to start with.

Jerry: 37:26

Hey, just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.

Jerry: 37:28

I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 37:36

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taken the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip.

Philip Pape: 38:39

I was even thinking if someone, let's say someone had had surgery and they needed rehab obviously there's a medical kind of scope of practice issue involved as well. But do you like, could I go in there and say give me a shoulder internal rotation mobility program.

Troy Taylor: 38:55

Number one. In that scenario your therapist can write a custom workout, a custom program, or you as an individual to for your very specific individual, for your very specific, and then you can add recovery weights to that kind of thing, so it's going to give you a lighter. We have an algorithm that if you've been off the machine for a while, we will reduce the weights because you're probably detrained. I think in therapy situations we certainly have a number of therapists that utilize tonal in their rehab process and in their small group training process. I would say that's mostly done via a custom basis where just a trainer goes in or a coach goes in or a therapist goes in. Hey, this is my specific shoulder rehab program for you. You can do it in my clinic on my tonal or you can do it at home on your tonal and we get the data. Either way, yeah.

Philip Pape: 39:39

And what about somebody's phase of nutrition, like if they're dieting, they're cutting heavy versus they're bulking? Do you just account for that with the progressive overload detection or do you program that in? Do you say like I'm actually in a fat loss phase now, so you got to account?

Troy Taylor: 39:56

for that you would get to choose from your goal and therefore the workouts or programs that would better align to your goals. We know that diet is mostly nutrition-based. Our philosophy from a training perspective during periods of fat loss or weight loss is generally to make sure you have enough stimulus to maintain muscle mass. I don't think anyone that diets wants to lose muscle mass. So we know that proximity to failure and volume are important to maintaining muscle mass. So we'll that proximity to failure and volume are important to maintaining muscle mass. So we'll be thinking about those in a program and we do have an element of work in there.

Troy Taylor: 40:28

Right, burning extra calories is not going to be the difference maker between losing 20 pounds and not losing 20 pounds. But if I can give you a bit more compound high movements, bit more volume, we measure work, so we measure force over distance all the time. If I can bias the movements towards those big compound movements rather than a ton of isolation exercises, yeah, I'm going to try and leverage that a little bit and maybe that will be a couple of hundred calories, that additional burn that you might get. But I'd say that's our kind of approach is to mostly focus on the maintenance of muscle mass and making sure we're getting stimulus and secondary to work about with work during those periods.

Philip Pape: 41:04

Okay, cool, yeah, just throwing a lot of these questions are just literally selfish questions. For me wondering about this stuff Because another one comes to mind is there's a lot of talk in the research about range of motion and lengthened partials. What's better, what's not?

Troy Taylor: 41:18

Milo Wolf.

Philip Pape: 41:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly, milo Wolf right, and there's a lot of. I guess the general consensus right now is look, just use a diversity of movements. We're talking about traditional training, Use full range of motion by default, but then you can play around with different ranges as finishers and bodybuilding, because you have this different strength curve. How does that equation change?

Troy Taylor: 41:41

Yeah, good question and one I would love to investigate when I get some research time. I know we have a Toner, brad Schoenfeld out of Lehman College, big hypertrophy researcher, milo and Pat. Dr Pat are both involved with Lehman College. They're visiting profs over there so they both have experienced Toner. So we've had some conversations around how we might do that.

Troy Taylor: 42:05

I think there's a couple of things, my take on that research and I think this is emerging and so I don't think there's an absolute consensus. The evidence-based community says this is the way. But I think what it seems clear is you need to do the lengthened portion of the rep if that is whether it's part of a full range or a dedicated partial in that. So when we're talking about the lengthened partial, imagine a fly and it would be this extended part. My peg is most stretched out, that portion you should probably, if your hypertrophy is your goal, not just ever do a partial in the short one range of motion. I think the research is very clear in that, whether the lengthened partial to full range or whether it's just the length and partial to half range is more hypertrophic or not, I think there is evidence to suggest in some muscle groups it looks like it is, whether that's based on only in new lifters and novice lifters, whether it's based on sarcomere, genesis or myofibril or hyper. I don't know if I have a strong opinion on that and I think we could probably get debated by experts much better than me in that space. But definitely you need to do the full range of motion or you need to do the length and portion of that.

Troy Taylor: 43:11

Total has two things. Number one we apply consistent resistance throughout, so it doesn't really matter. So if you imagine, yeah, so that'd be number one. Number two we can emphasize more resistance on the long muscle length, partial portion of that. So imagine a pull down. This is where it's stretching of the lat. You can make it heavier here and lighter here. Reverse chains you know chains like you.

Troy Taylor: 43:38

You can't do change pulling down uh, but you would imagine as the cable extends chains would make it heavier.

Troy Taylor: 43:44

Reverse chains we call smart flex essentially matches the strength curve of the movement. Say it's 100 pounds here, 99, 98, 97, 96, 95, 94, 93, maybe it's 80 at this bottom range. So I'm actually taxing that long muscle length which is where I'm strongest right, that long muscle length which is where I'm strongest right and that might, might lead to more hypertrophy growth because you'd be maxillizing, getting maximum mechanical tension in that long muscle length. I think that's pretty cool. We haven't researched that in a peer reviewed randomized control trial. I would love to at some point. But theoretically, as I understand the mechanisms, you can any row based exercise, particularly, or any any chest based exercise you can over emphasize that that strength curve, uh, which I think is pretty cool.

Philip Pape: 44:34

I think that's really cool too. And then it it brings up you mentioned chain, so like accommodating resistance. That makes me think of. Let's take a bench press sounds like you can. Then because of the curve, you could emulate chains or bands and you could even do an overload right like an eccentric overload. You have that mode.

Troy Taylor: 44:50

You can do it both at the same time if you want um right yeah you don't need a spotter to like take off the first time you do it you're like oh, but like it's potentially very beneficial. Uh, so chains my take on the research, for you know, louis Simmons and all back in the powerlifting days in the West Side really good for powerlifting right or for power development. As we extend. We are generally, you know, we are most powerful at that end range of motion. Chains overloads that end range of motion, so we're getting constant resistance. With Tonal we already said that we don't get that freebie anyway and if you add chains to it it could be really, really beneficial for power training.

Troy Taylor: 45:26

And so I think about that for people that want to get strong or do powerlifting things. I actually think about it for the 55-year-old female that wants to maintain deadlift power. Power is the ability to get out of the chair, to walk up the stairs, to have gait speed, to do all those activities. Those are power exercises. And so I love to add chains because it's a touch of a button to a 65-year-old, post-menopause female program. Because, yeah, it's lighter at the bottom and as you come up and you're stronger at that top motion, it accommodates the resistance to get that power kind of emphasis. And, yes, accentuated eccentric loading probably good for strength development, maybe for hypertrophy. I think the research is out there. But you could add 100 pounds on the way up, 125 pounds on the way down and you can literally do those two together on tonal, which is, I don't know of any evidence to say that's beneficial. But you can if you want to, it's awesome.

Philip Pape: 46:16

Yeah. And one last question related to that. Then if you have a sticking point, so again just saying bench press and you.

Troy Taylor: 46:26

You have a sticking point two inches up the chest, if you're me, yeah does tonal detect what that is based on your velocity or something we we can't. We will detect the velocity change and so that's where I use with that burnout mode, so that will be where it decreases one pound resistance. So I get continual progressive overload of that. In that it will be, you know, 200. I can't bench 200 on tonal. It's too hard for me. I can bench significantly more on a freeway, but on tonal I'm kind of like sets of eight around 180. 180 here and I get to get off two inches off my chest and then it will go 179, 178, 176, 175, and then I can move it again and then it can go back to 200. I can either leave it so it doesn't increase or it goes back to 180 pounds at the top and every time I get to that sticking point it reduces a little bit and I get to work on that sticky point overload.

Philip Pape: 47:07

So cool man. No, I'm glad you came on. I'm glad we had you on to talk about this. It's just fascinating. I go on all day. I know we're short on time, so I do. Is there any question? You wish I had asked that I didn't, and what is your answer?

Troy Taylor: 47:22

Not really, I will say, because when this is releasing, tonal is home gym, that's what I think. We are in some personal training studios and some physical therapy clinics. In January February in New York we are opening the Tonal Training Lab, which is like small group boutique fitness training based on Tonal. So if you're hearing this and you're in the New York area and this comes out around that kind of time from January into February, you can try tonal not just in a showroom and a retail but based on a a sort of a boutique fitness uh work, small workout class which is project time, and even I'm kind of super excited to see how that goes.

Philip Pape: 47:54

Yeah, that's awesome. So that's a, basically a gym is what you're saying with.

Troy Taylor: 47:57

Yeah, Imagine imagine a small group. There's, I think, eight to 10 tonals in the room. It will be a standardized group class but all the advantages of tonal plus real life coaching, Nice. So you get the kind of combination of this tech enabled in-person class, all right, troy.

Philip Pape: 48:12

Well, yeah, thanks for coming on, man and letting us. I mean, I really want people to open their mind to these possibilities because I definitely was skeptical a couple of years ago when I first heard about you guys. I think I heard, I saw, I think you were on Mind Pump and I was like starting to warm up and then had some clients start to use it and start to research it more. This is interesting, especially as part of, like, your overall package here for training and what the options are out there. So keep doing what you're doing, man. I'm excited for the next chapter and thank you so much for coming out.

Troy Taylor: 48:45

Oh, and where do you want people to reach you? Cause I want to throw those in the show notes. Oh, yeah, so, uh, my Instagram is strength science Troy. Uh, you'll see lots of tonal, some evidence-based fitness, but lots of tonal uh. And you know, non non-officials accessories uh for for fun ways to train uh on that. Obviously, tonalcom is the main tonal website and that tonal training lab, uhlabcom, is the website for the New York pop-up gym. Those are probably the best places.

Philip Pape: 49:04

I'll throw those in there. And again, thank you so much, man, for coming on. Thank you so much for having me.

The 3 Million Steps Challenge for Massive Fat Loss in 2025 (Compound Effect) | Ep 267

Join our free Facebook group to connect with others taking the #3MillionSteps2025 Challenge challenge!

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Are you struggling to lose that last bit of fat?

Research shows hitting the right number of daily steps can dramatically boost your metabolism and fat loss through NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis).

Learn how the engineering concept of the Compound Effect explains why small, daily increases in movement create exponential results over time - transforming not just your physique but your entire metabolism.

Main Takeaways:

• The Compound Effect shows how small daily improvements lead to exponential results

• 8,200 daily steps (3 million/year) hits the research-backed sweet spot for health benefits

• Walking enhances lifting results through improved recovery, nutrient partitioning, and metabolism

• Personalized progression rates ensure sustainable implementation based on your starting point

Benefits of walking according to research:

• Enhanced insulin sensitivity and blood sugar control

• Improved nutrient partitioning for muscle growth

• Better recovery between lifting sessions

• Reduced muscle soreness and inflammation

• Enhanced sleep quality and stress reduction

• Increased NEAT for easier fat loss

• Preserved muscle mass during cuts

• Better joint mobility and reduced stiffness

• More stable energy levels throughout the day

• Improved cognitive function for training focus

Remember: Walking alone isn't enough - you need progressive overload through strength training. But for those already lifting, increasing daily steps is the perfect complement to optimize your results.

Join our free Facebook group to connect with others taking the challenge and share your progress

3 Million Steps for Fat Loss: Harnessing the Compound Effect in 2025

Think your daily steps are insignificant for fat loss? Think again. Walking isn’t just a casual activity; it’s a powerful tool for fat loss, improved health, and better training results when used strategically. In this episode of Wits & Weights, we explore how the compound effect—a principle rooted in engineering—shows why small increases in daily movement can lead to massive transformations over time.

By targeting 3 million steps this year (about 8,200 per day), you’ll unlock benefits like better recovery, fat loss, and nutrient partitioning while building sustainable habits. Let’s dive into why daily movement matters, the science behind our 3 million steps target, and how you can implement this challenge today.

The Power of the Compound Effect

The compound effect, a key concept in engineering, shows how small changes can yield exponential results over time. In fitness, this principle applies directly to walking. Every additional step creates a cascade of positive changes:

1. Boosts NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis): Increases daily calorie burn.

2. Enhances metabolism: Improves insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning.

3. Promotes overall activity: Encourages more spontaneous movement and better cardiovascular health.

For example, taking 500 extra steps daily might seem minor, but over time, this compounds into significant health and fat loss benefits.

Why 3 Million Steps?

The goal of 3 million steps in 2025 boils down to hitting the evidence-based sweet spot for daily movement. A 2022 meta-analysis in The Lancet found the ideal range for health benefits is 7,000–9,000 steps per day. Our challenge of 3 million steps (8,200 steps/day) falls right in the middle.

Benefits of hitting this target:

• Metabolic improvements: Better insulin sensitivity, blood sugar control, and nutrient utilization.

• Fat loss support: Increased calorie burn (e.g., 120,000 calories/year for 3 million steps).

• Recovery and performance: Enhanced blood flow, reduced inflammation, and faster muscle recovery.

• Mental and physical health: Better stress management, improved sleep, and reduced systemic inflammation.

Building Your Step Goal System

Step 1: Track Your Baseline

Before setting a target, find out your current average steps by tracking for one to two weeks. Use any fitness tracker, phone app, or wearable device.

Step 2: Gradual Progression

Increase your steps incrementally.

• Add 500 steps per day each week if starting from a low baseline (e.g., 3,000 steps/day).

• If you’re closer to 6,000 steps/day, aim for 1,000 extra steps per day weekly.

Step 3: Create a Supportive Environment

Incorporate walking naturally into your daily routine:

• Take a 10-minute walk after meals.

• Use rest periods during workouts to add steps.

• Park farther from your destination or use stairs instead of elevators.

Step 4: Build a Feedback Loop

Track your steps and celebrate progress. Join the Wits & Weights Facebook group for accountability and community support. Share your journey using #3millionsteps2025 to connect with others taking the challenge.

Walking as a Catalyst, Not a Replacement

While walking provides incredible benefits, it’s important to pair it with strength training. Progressive overload through lifting is essential for building and maintaining muscle, which complements the metabolic benefits of daily movement. Walking is the catalyst that amplifies the results you’re already achieving in the gym.

The Compound Effect Goes Both Ways

Every decision compounds over time—whether it’s adding steps or skipping them. A small daily effort, like taking the stairs or walking after dinner, accumulates into big results over weeks and months. Conversely, neglecting these actions can lead to regression.

By embracing the compound effect in 2025, you’re not just adding steps—you’re creating a ripple effect for better health, fat loss, and fitness success.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Think your daily movement doesn't matter much for fat loss. Recent research shows that simply hitting 8,000 steps a day dramatically reduces mortality risk and boosts your metabolism. Today, we're using the engineering principle of compound effects to reveal why 3 million steps this year 2025, could transform your physique and health, and how small increases in daily movement create exponential results over time. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring how one engineering concept, the compound effect, reveals why taking just a few more steps each day this year could be the missing piece in your lifting and nutrition strategy. Now you're already putting in the work at the gym, I hope lifting weights, tracking your protein, focusing on progressive overload. If you're not doing those things, I would set those foundations up before you try to ramp up your steps. But if you're not paying attention to your daily movement, you're missing a crucial catalyst for better recovery, nutrient partitioning and your overall results. Recent research in the Lancet Public Health tells us that mortality risk decreases significantly as steps increase, especially up to about 8,000 to 10,000 steps per day. But most lifters fail to hit these targets because they're trying to change too much too fast, they're not consistent, they're missing the power of compound effects entirely. Today we're gonna break this down into three parts First, how the compound effect in engineering systems explains why small movement creates exponential results. Second, the science behind why our target of 3 million steps lands perfectly in that research-backed sweet spot and can amplify your training results. And finally, the exact system you'll use to build up to this goal this year, based on your current starting point. Before we dive in, if you're ready to join others who are taking up this challenge for themselves this 3 million steps in 2025, and you want some accountability, some support, a place to share and track your results, join our free Wits and Weights Facebook group. You can search Wits and Weights on Facebook or just Facebook. Facebook or click the link in the show notes and you will there find a community of like-minded people who are just sharing their progress. They're posting every day, they're supporting each other and you can look up the hashtag 3millionsteps2025 to specifically follow along in this challenge. Again, join our Facebook group, click the link in the show notes or search for it on Facebook.

Philip Pape: 2:49

Now let's start by understanding the compound effect from an engineering perspective. We like to do that on these Wednesday episodes. In engineering systems we see this principle everywhere, from thermal systems, where tiny improvements in insulation can lead to big savings in energy, to electronic amplifiers, where a small signal gets stronger through a feedback loop, and chemical reactions, where catalysts compound the rate of change. The key here? You don't have to understand these systems, but it's the principle behind them. They don't just add up changes linearly, they multiply them over time through positive feedback loops. James Clear captured this perfectly in Atomic Habits when he talked about how a 1% daily improvement compounds to a 37x improvement over a year. So it is an incredibly important principle that can definitely work with your body, because things in the fitness realm work the same way.

Philip Pape: 3:49

Every additional step that you take creates a cascade of positive feedback loops. Notice I'm not just talking about adding steps and that's the end of the story. Listen to this chain of events. First, when you move more, yes, you are increasing your what we call NEAT, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis. Higher NEAT then boosts your daily calorie burn. That higher calorie burn, or higher energy expenditure, improves a lot of things, such as your insulin sensitivity and, of course, the amount of food you can eat and the amount of fat loss you can achieve. Enhanced metabolism also makes future movement easier. You are now a healthier person. You have better cardiovascular health, better blood sugar control, on and on. And then all of this improved fitness leads to potentially more spontaneous activity that you may not even be aware of, further increasing your NEAT. This is why active people burn a lot more calories, even above and beyond what you would think. Because of this cascade, because of this compound effect of one little thing that upward spirals into multiple behaviors, sometimes unconsciously.

Philip Pape: 4:59

Now one of my clients, jerry I had him on the podcast a while back. He had already lifted for many years. He built a ton of muscle. He was carrying a little bit extra weight, so we wanted to work on fat loss, but he was only getting like 3,000 steps a day because he was an attorney on his butt all day behind a computer Raise your hand virtually if that is you and so we got his steps up to about 8,000 steps per day. It wasn't like 12. It was eight. And within I'll say within weeks, if not days his resting heart rate dropped dramatically. But he also saw that his expenditure climbed as he was in fat loss, which was almost a little I'll say a little bit surprising. It wasn't surprising for me I've seen this happen but the fact that he'd already built most of his genetic muscle that's what made it a little bit surprising the power of adding some steps, and that was just for his expenditure. We saw his health markers improve as well from the movement alone, before he had even lost very much weight at all. So keep that in mind if you're facing a plateau, if you're having issues with recovery, with training, with the amount of food you're eating, how powerful steps can be.

Philip Pape: 6:12

Now let's get into why this specific number. So I came up with this challenge. I'm calling it the 3 million steps challenge. It's not a challenge that you sign up for. It's just a goal that you can aim for for the year, and then you join our Facebook group and together we are going to help each other achieve it. And that specific number may not even be your goal. We'll get there. But I want to explain that number first. If we break it down to a daily number, it comes out to 8,200 steps per day. And here's where the research gets interesting. A 2022 meta-analysis in the Lancet showed that the sweet spot for health benefits lies between 7,000 and 9,000 steps per day. So this target of 8,200 lands right in the middle, right smack dab in the middle of this evidence-based range.

Philip Pape: 6:56

And for those of you already committed to strength training, which I'm going to mention multiple times today, you've got to be doing Walking is not enough, you've got to be strength training. The benefits directly support your goals and they compound them and they spiral them upward. So let's go through those benefits. I have quite a list based on what we've seen in the research. First are the metabolic benefits. Walking enhances your insulin sensitivity, which means better nutrient partitioning when you're trying to grow muscle. Now we know strength training also vastly improves this as well, so they go hand in hand. Related to this is it improves blood sugar control, which helps you with recovery, reducing fat storage as well. If you have historical issues with blood sugar maybe you're pre-diabetic or diabetic it's as powerful, if not more so, than metformin, which is the leading type 2 diabetes medication.

Philip Pape: 7:50

When you go for a walk after a meal so that's always the first place I advise people putting their walks is after a meal. It increases your NEAT, which we mentioned before, and that can account for up to half yes, half of your daily energy expenditure if you are a big time walker, and it also helps with your appetite regulation energy expenditure if you are a big time walker, and it also helps with your appetite regulation. So it just naturally helps you get in better tune with your hunger signals and makes the intuitive aspect of eating food easier. While you're tracking and getting to that point and I see this all the time with clients who increase their steps they're like wow, I didn't know it would help me with my yeah, my BMs and my digestion, but also with my hunger signals. Awesome, so those are metabolic.

Philip Pape: 8:29

Then we have the recovery and performance benefits that I don't think get talked about enough. For example, it enhances your blood flow between your training sessions. So it can actually not only help your muscles recover and repair, but also reduces DOMS, right Delayed onset muscle soreness. It's a great way to just kind of mitigate some of the soreness that you might get, which you shouldn't always be sore, but if you're in fat loss or you're doing a new movement or certain high rep work, I get it. You could, you could be sore. Maybe a type of person that has some extra cardio in there, you might get sore. So this is helpful. It also lowers systemic inflammation, which actually supports better adaptation to training, which is more of an acute inflammation, right, like training is an inflammatory response to the muscle tearing, but we don't, which we want, but we don't want systemic inflammation, so walking actually lowers that. It also improves your sleep quality.

Philip Pape: 9:21

Okay, if you're having trouble with sleep or getting good sleep quality and you're not walking enough, adding some walks in, especially later in the day, not too late, could be helpful. See what it does for your sleep, and we know how important sleep then is for everything else Muscle growth, fat loss, you know, avoiding fat gain in your belly, all those things. And then it helps reduce your stress. Just walking itself can be stress relieving in many different ways right Walking out in nature, walking while you listen to a podcast or music, just being with your thoughts, being with people, being in the sun. But it also just naturally reduces your chronic stress physiologically and that supports better testosterone and better growth hormone production. We see how all this stuff is connected. And then the last, not last. I actually have four categories here. So the third category benefits from walking, from steps, is the fat loss support which I know a lot of you came to listen to this based on my title, but it is very helpful and it's a great incentive.

Philip Pape: 10:15

So walking creates a calorie deficit. Well, it creates a calorie deficit. If you were previously at maintenance and now you add more steps, you're obviously going to burn more calories. Something like if you add 4,000 steps a day, you might burn an extra, say, 150 calories a day. That is not nothing. That is pretty significant because that means if you were maintaining, well, now you could eat 150 more calories of food to maintain, or you can just eat the same and actually start losing you know, maybe a half a pound a week or not quite just by adding 4,000 steps a day.

Philip Pape: 10:46

Um, success studies show us that successful weight loss maintainers right, people who lose weight and fat and they maintain it. They average about 11 to 12,000 steps and again, you don't have to go that high. If you're doing a lot of other things, it's not going to be as necessary. I do like those numbers if you can get there, but we're focusing on that 8,000 step minimum today and then over a year. If you, let's say, you got 3 million steps, that is equivalent to about 120,000 calories burned right, and again, that's total. Obviously, if you're getting 4,000 steps now, and you'd go up to eight. You're getting 60,000 extra calories, not 120, but you get what I'm saying. Just do the math. So, as far as fat loss goes, those are helpful.

Philip Pape: 11:29

It also helps preserve muscle during fat loss phases because you are increasing your energy flux. You're keeping your metabolism higher than it otherwise would be, which then allows you to eat more of everything protein, carbs, everything that supports muscle and helps avoid catabolism, the breakdown of muscle. Super amazing thing that you might not be thinking about. It's like well, if I'm in the same calorie deficit, what does it matter? Well, wouldn't you rather be in the same calorie deficit with 200 more calories a day? Yes, of course you would. And finally, it supports insulin sensitivity, which we mentioned before, but that also makes your body more efficient at using nutrients, which can be helpful during fat loss. And then, finally, we have lifting-specific benefits Better joint mobility, reduced stiffness between training sessions and, by the way, the best thing you can do for your mobility and joints is lift weights.

Philip Pape: 12:19

So don't take this to mean like, oh, we're gonna walk to offset how weights hurt your joints. No, that's not the mentality. The mentality is we need to lift weights. That supports our joints, and then walking also supports our joints and helps with the blood flow, and all that. It also improves your cardiovascular function, of course, which helps with your work capacity, which helps you get through workouts and get all the reps without feeling out of breath. It gives you more stable energy levels throughout the day, partly because of the blood sugar control, and it gives you better cognitive function for focusing during intense training sessions.

Philip Pape: 12:51

And I didn't even mention the mental health benefits. I don't know why I didn't have that in my notes, but the mental health benefits of walking are also well-demonstrated and worthwhile even just for itself. I did mention stress, but anyway, now I wanna be crystal clear again Walking alone is not enough. You absolutely need to be lifting weights with progressive overload to build and maintain muscle mass. But for those of you who are already doing this, increasing daily steps is like adding fuel to the fire. It's adding a catalyst to those efforts. That's the compound effect, and I see it with clients all the time. They add more walking in and so many things start to improve, almost surprisingly, like they'll fill out their check-in form and they'll say well, you know, I just all of a sudden felt like I had a lot more energy and I was actually walking more this week. Like well, there's probably a reason for that, and so any one of these benefits might apply to you and they're worthwhile in terms of a reason to walk, all right.

Philip Pape: 13:48

So here's where we get a little bit more practical right. Just like in engineering systems, we want to calibrate based on where you are starting from and where your baseline is. So, even though 3 million steps for the year equals 8,200 steps a day, if you are currently getting 3,000 steps a day, I don't want you to try to get 8,000 steps this week. Just add 500 steps this week and then add 500 more and then keep going. Now, if you're already getting, say, 6,000 steps, well, maybe you're at the point where you can add a thousand steps this week instead of just 500. You know, it's kind of like progressive overload for walking and just gradually progress. Allow the compound effect to start working.

Philip Pape: 14:26

Don't overwhelm your schedule or your stress or your lifting or anything by feeling like this is a burden. We don't want it to be a negative. We want the walking just to be an easy little thing. They're adding in and, by the way, 500 steps, that's like a quarter mile. You can add that almost by just changing some of the way that you do normal day-to-day activities, your chores, where you park, when you go to the store, taking the stairs instead of the elevator, pacing around the house, when you're on a call, it may not even require a walk, quote unquote. But then to get more steps than that, yes, it helps to have structured walks in there. So how do we do this?

Philip Pape: 15:01

All right, step one is to get that baseline. If you don't even know what you're getting, that's step one. Track your current steps for a week or two using any old device that can do that. They're all fine. Your phone, a wearable, an expensive wearable, cheap wearable they all work and you'll get a good average right.

Philip Pape: 15:17

Some days are high, sometimes are low. Don't beat yourself up just because you had a low day, because then you might have a high day. Don't try to make it up. Just see what your average is and then, based on where you honestly are now, you can choose how you want to increase from there and set your new floor. And then make sure that you are doing this intentionally around your schedule with what's really going to happen in your life. Don't just assume you can crank up the steps without any thought, right? So that's step one. Step two is so. In other words, I want you to not feel like you're forcing yourself to do it. I want you to set up the environment to help you be successful.

Philip Pape: 16:00

Park farther from the gym or the grocery store. Take a 10-minute walk right after you train. You know, since you're already at the gym, like, just add the walk to your gym session. Think of it as a cool down, or do it before the gym session, that's fine. Think of it as a warm up. Schedule walking meetings if that's a thing you can do. Add a 10 minute walk after meals, or even a five minute walk if that's all you can do.

Philip Pape: 16:23

Here's a hack that I like Use your rest periods between your sets in the gym and just walk around. I mean, unless it's just like massively intense, like super heavy deadlifts, where you're just gassed and you need to sit, and that's better for you, unless it's that, use the periods between the sets to just get a bunch of steps. You might get two or 3,000 steps during your training session just from that. And then the final thing here is now that you've tracked your baseline, you've set a target and you've set up your environment for success is to build that feedback loop. All right, log those steps Now. Again, if you're using a phone, it does it for you pretty much. I like an app called pedometer plus plus. Uh, it's on iPhone, I don't know if it's on Android, but it's a free app. You can donate to them too, but it's free, and it has a widget for your uh what do you call a complication for your Apple watch, so that you could set a target and see how you are tracking against the target.

Philip Pape: 17:18

Another way to build a feedback loop is to join our Facebook group and share your progress. That's actually one of the most powerful ways is community support and accountability. Jump on in there, show us your pretty face, take a picture of you walking, video of you walking outside, whatever. Throw a screenshot of your GPS, track whatever floats your boat, and we'll just all jump in and give you the applause and the recognition, but also the encouragement to keep going and help with any issues along the way. Also, look at how your increased steps helps everything else.

Philip Pape: 17:52

So you should be tracking your lifting performance at a minimum. Is it helping with that? Is it helping with your heart rate? Right, you're probably tracking. That was part of your. If you have a wearable, is it helping with your sleep, with your energy, with all the? Tie them together as an incentive for why increasing your step count is so helpful. And then always celebrate achievements. So if you went from 3000 average and now you're up to 3,500 average, celebrate that. It is worth celebrating.

Philip Pape: 18:24

All right, the last fascinating kind of twist here I want you to think about with this compound effect is that it works both ways. In other words, if you make a choice to take the elevator instead of the stairs and then you keep doing that, that's going to compound over a year in the opposite direction. That's 365 opportunities. If it's every day for the effect to work either for or against you, it's like a decision tree. So it's just like how missing one workout is not going to kill your gains, but if you keep skipping sessions, it's going to cause you to detrain your daily movement. Choices accumulate into either progress or regression. So this is the year to think about which direction you want to go. The compound effect is not just a abstract principle, right, it's a fundamental law of nature. It really is. We see it everywhere and by applying it to your movement through the 3 million steps challenge. You're working with those natural laws to amplify your results instead of fight against them.

Philip Pape: 19:18

All right, join our Wits and Weights Facebook group to connect with others taking the hashtag 3 million steps 2025 challenge. You could share your progress. You could support, be part of a community that understands the power of not quick fixes, but small, consistent actions. Click the link in the show notes to join the group or search Wits and Weights on Facebook. Until next time, keep using those wits lifting some weights and Weights on Facebook. Until next time, keep using those lifting some weights and remember every step counts. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

6 Ways to Lose Fat in 2025 (Using Science-Based Methods) | Ep 266

Download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide with the 6 core fat loss strategies customized for your experience, goals, and lifestyle (or go to witsandweights.com/free)

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Struggling to shed fat without sacrificing your sanity? Why do 95% of dieters regain weight—and how can you avoid that trap? Can fat loss really be sustainable without drastic measures like cutting carbs or doing a 28-day challenge?

Philip (@witsandweights) kicks off the new year with a powerful guide to six evidence-based fat loss strategies tailored to your unique lifestyle and goals. These approaches aren’t about quick fixes but real, lasting results without misery or burnout. Learn how to pick the strategy that fits your body, goals, and life, and start 2025 with a sustainable plan you’ll stick with.

You’ll also hear why most fat loss plans fail, the role of metabolic adaptation, and the secret to flexibility in dieting that most people overlook. Download Philip’s free Precision Fat Loss Guide at witsandweights.com/free to follow along and put these strategies into action.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:03 The three main reasons diets fail
8:27 Strategy #1
10:48 Strategy #2
13:15 Strategy #3
16:50 Strategy #4
18:44 Strategy #5
21:03 Strategy #6
23:04 Understanding metabolic adaptation and its impact
27:38 How to choose the right strategy for you
30:41 Setting up calories, macros, and meal timing
37:26 The importance of maintaining strength while cutting
39:17 Why successful fat loss doesn’t require perfection
41:36 Fat loss that fits your life
42:52 Outro

Episode resources:

• Have you heard about MacroFactor’s massive $100,000 New Year's Transformation Challenge? They’ll be giving away $50,000 to a grand prize winner, and $500 to 100 more people! All you need to do to enter is download MacroFactor – use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS to get a two-week free trial – then fill out a quick form at macrofactorapp.com/challenge
  

6 Science-Based Fat Loss Strategies to Kickstart Your Success in 2025

If you’re tired of falling into the same diet traps every year and want fat loss methods that actually work, this is your year. Forget the quick fixes and unsustainable trends—2025 is all about using evidence-based strategies tailored to your goals, lifestyle, and experience.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I break down six proven strategies for fat loss and show you how to choose the best one for your unique situation. Whether you’re just starting out, have been training for years, or want to refine your approach, these methods will help you achieve sustainable results without sacrificing your sanity—or your favorite foods.

Why Most Fat Loss Approaches Fail

Before diving into the strategies, let’s address why so many fat loss attempts fall flat:

1. One-size-fits-all plans: Most diets ignore individual differences like genetics, lifestyle, and metabolic rate.

2. Focus on short-term results: Quick fixes lead to muscle loss, hormonal imbalances, and eventual weight regain.

3. Unrealistic expectations: Many plans assume you can live like a robot, ignoring real-life challenges like social events, stress, and fluctuating schedules.

The solution? Personalization and flexibility. By choosing a strategy that fits your life, you can avoid these pitfalls and finally make progress.

The Six Science-Based Fat Loss Strategies

1. The Slow Burn

Target a gradual fat loss of 0.25–0.5% of your body weight per week.

• Best for: Beginners or those with a lot of weight to lose.

• Why it works: Preserves muscle, minimizes hunger, and allows for social flexibility.

• Example: A 200-pound person aims to lose 0.5–1 pound per week.

2. The Sweet Spot

Lose 0.5–1% of your body weight per week over 8–16 weeks.

• Best for: Those who want faster results without extreme measures.

• Why it works: Balances results and sustainability while maintaining workout performance.

• Example: A 200-pound person loses 1–2 pounds per week while staying consistent in the gym.

3. Rapid Fat Loss

Drop 1–1.5% of your body weight per week for 2–8 weeks max.

• Best for: Advanced lifters with a specific deadline, like a photo shoot or event.

• Why it works: Delivers fast results but requires precision and strict adherence.

• Caution: Should only be used as a short-term tool to avoid muscle loss and metabolic adaptation.

4. Ride the Wave

Cycle calories or carbs based on training days or social events.

• Best for: Those with irregular schedules or frequent events.

• Why it works: Reduces diet fatigue and makes the process more flexible.

• Example: Higher calorie intake on leg day, lower intake on recovery days.

5. Alternating Phases

Periodize your diet with on/off cycles, such as 2 weeks in a deficit followed by 2 weeks at maintenance.

• Best for: Advanced lifters or those with unique schedules.

• Why it works: Provides mental relief, hormonal recovery, and sustainable progress.

6. Recharge, Recomp

Focus on eating at maintenance while building muscle and losing fat slowly.

• Best for: High-stress periods or plateaus.

• Why it works: Allows for recovery, resets your metabolism, and promotes recomposition.

How to Choose Your Strategy

Picking the right strategy depends on your goals, experience, and lifestyle:

• Beginners: Stick with the Slow Burn or Sweet Spot to master the basics.

• Intermediates: Any approach except Rapid Fat Loss can work, depending on your preferences.

• Advanced lifters: Match the strategy to your specific goals, such as prep for a competition or overcoming a plateau.

Implementation Tips

1. Know Your Maintenance Calories
   Track your food intake and weight for two weeks to determine how many calories you need to maintain your weight. Apps like MacroFactor can make this process easier.

2. Set Your Deficit and Macros

• Protein: 0.7–1 gram per pound of target body weight.

• Fats: Around 30% of calories, with the rest from carbs.

• Adjust calories based on your chosen strategy.

1. Track Progress with Trends

• Focus on weekly averages for weight and other metrics, like waist measurements and progress photos.

• Don’t stress over daily fluctuations—what matters is the overall trend.

1. Prioritize Strength Training
   Maintain your regular lifting routine and push for strength gains to preserve muscle during fat loss. Avoid the myth of switching to higher reps for "fat-burning."

2. Plan for Real Life
   Incorporate flexibility with planned higher-calorie days or maintenance phases to stay consistent long-term.

The Key to Sustainable Fat Loss

Fat loss doesn’t have to be a miserable grind. By choosing a strategy that aligns with your situation and building in flexibility, you can achieve your goals while living your life. The best fat loss plan isn’t the one that promises the fastest results—it’s the one you can stick with long enough to see meaningful changes.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're already dreading another year of frustrating fat loss attempts, wasting time with those popular diets that don't work for your lifestyle and genetics, or feeling overwhelmed by all the nutrition advice out there and not sure what actually works, this episode is for you. Today, I'm breaking down six science-backed strategies for fat loss that you can implement this year, based on your unique situation, your experience, level, goals, lifestyle. I'll show you how to choose the method that will work best for you and the exact steps to put it into action. And the best part is you don't have to do anything extreme. A 28-day challenge, start fasting or cut out food groups these are approaches that fit you like a glove, so you can stick with them long enough to lose fat without being miserable. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are kicking off 2025 by breaking down six proven strategies for fat loss that align with your individual needs, and that is the key differentiator. The timing of this episode is intentional, because January is not just about New Year's resolutions. It's about starting the year with the right tools and knowledge to make sustainable changes, whether you have a resolution or just want to follow the process and get the result, and that is what we're covering today. Now, before we get into those strategies, I want to let you know that I've created a free guide called Precision Fat Loss that complements today's episode perfectly. It gives you a targeted plan including all six core strategies that we're discussing. It gives you detailed guidance on choosing the right one for you and the steps to implement your strategy properly. You can get your free copy at witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in the show notes, and it's a great companion to follow along with this episode.

Philip Pape: 2:06

Now, my goal, as always, is to live up to what you're asking for as the listener or the viewer, so I wanted to share some recent five-star reviews that explain what we're about much better than I can, and I'm going to start with a review from RNK. Great stuff. Philip delivers interesting insights in a polished way. I love the analytical approach to health. He kept me engaged throughout the episode. The next review is from Brad Kearns, who, by the way, is going to be on the show soon. Really well-informed and interesting. Philip does a fantastic job, covering the most interesting and important topics, including scientific research into easily understandable and actionable tips for healthy living and especially getting fit and strong for a lifetime. And then we have LadyLifter07. I love that. Handle Best nutrition podcast. Real advice for real people. Always look forward to the next episode. I should use that as my tagline going forward Real advice for real people.

Philip Pape: 3:03

All right, let's start by addressing why most fat loss approaches fail. We've got to understand what the heck is going on in the world where so many people they lose weight and then they gain it back, and even when they lose weight, they lose muscle and they don't understand how to do this, despite tons and tons of information. And there are three core issues that I see all the time, especially with clients, and this is why they tend to seek me out and reach out and say, hey, I need help with this. The first core issue of the three is fat loss approaches usually treat everyone the same. They completely ignore individual differences. Now, I'm not talking about just general personalization. I'm talking about the vastly different genetics and lifestyles and goals that people have. And yet we lump fat loss all into one big giant category. For example, you've got people with different metabolic rates, just genetically and also based on their history. Some of you can eat 3,000 calories, maintain your weight. Others maintain it 2,000 or far less. That's the first issue. Then there's the recovery ability, and this is important for fat loss. When you're training five days a week, six days a week and you can't recover, that's going to add stress during fat loss, and you know some people need more rest, some people need more rest. Your lifestyle demands and your stress levels play a huge role. You know A busy executive with three kids is going to need a very different approach than someone with more flexibility in their schedule. And then the training experience and the muscle mass you already have. These are all factors that dramatically influence how your body responds to a calorie deficit. So that's the first core issue.

Philip Pape: 4:43

The second core issue is that traditional approaches focus on short-term results. You hear me talk about this a lot. I think it's worth harping on the fact that 99% of diets out there are trying to get you a quick fix, whether it's the crash diets, whether it's the detoxes, whether it's programs like Weight Watchers or Optivea, whether it's the weight loss drugs and again, I'm not bashing on those drugs for people who need it. I'm just saying the marketing of that is promising rapid weight loss, even if it's ostensibly for a health issue, you'll still see like such and such achieved, you know, 45 pounds of weight loss. But what actually happens to the vast majority of people doing this when you're losing weight so quickly is, yeah, your hormones get completely out of whack. We know that happens Metabolic adaptation. I'll address that later. But worse for most people is they're losing muscle. They get ravenously hungry, they're cutting food so they want to binge on those foods again and they gain it all back. We're talking 95% of people gain it back within five years and oftentimes because you have less muscle, you're now going to have more fat than you had before, even at the same weight, and a lot of you are gaining even more weight than that. So the body fatness just keeps to creep up over the years.

Philip Pape: 5:54

There's zero consideration in these approaches for building the habits that take you through all the different phases of life and through training and not losing muscle, the importance of maintenance, the importance of building and losing fat. It's all about the quick fix and that's the problem. The third problem is the approaches don't account for real life. A lot of them claim to be personalized, but by that they usually mean oh, we're going to take your gender and your genetics, or we're going to take your gender and your height and weight and a few other factors, and that's what we mean by personalization. No, what I'm talking about is the very significant differences between how people live and who they live with, and where they live and what their job is, and so on.

Philip Pape: 6:41

And the existing approaches assume you're going to be this perfect dieting robot who never has social events. You never travel, you never. You know you have perfect stress levels. You get eight hours of sleep every night. Come on, like, when does that ever happen? Ever, ever, ever, except maybe maybe a 20 year old or something with, like, no stress in their life. No, your work stress fluctuates. Your training intensity varies week to week. You've got family obligations that pop up. A sustainable approach has to account for all of that. It can't be the other way around. We can't say, well, you need to just get rid of all that. Like, you're not working hard enough. You need to double down and like, be disciplined. No, no, come on, this is reality, so work with me here, all right.

Philip Pape: 7:28

So I want to now dig into the six evidence-based strategies that I've developed over the years with clients, and when I say I've developed, there's nothing new under the sun here. I'm just going to be totally honest. What I've done is taken, everything that I've worked with over the last three years myself, clients, this podcast and for 2025, I smushed it all together into a very simple, understandable set of six strategies, all right, and I'm going to split them into three and three and then talk about how to which ones to pick, based on you. So let's build this piece by piece. I'm going to start with a foundational approach and then go to the advanced methods. Think of it like a pyramid, where you want to master the basics before moving to the complex stuff. And, by the way, the Precision Fat Loss Guide if you download it, it will tell you with a check mark or an X whether each plan is good for you, based on all the different situations that you could be in, so you can immediately rule out things that I would not recommend for you right now. So, strategy number one of the six here we go. Here we go.

Philip Pape: 8:25

I don't know how long this episode is going to be. I call it the slow burn. You're targeting a loss of around a quarter to half percent of your body weight a week, which is quite reasonable and conservative, and you're doing it over anywhere from 12 to 20 or more weeks. I mean you could conceivably do it forever. I would never do a fat loss phase like that, but if you have like 300 pounds to lose, this could be the one that you want to go with, you know, in segments, over time.

Philip Pape: 8:54

Now I know it doesn't sound sexy, right, this is not a quick fix thing we're talking about. This is about a half a pound a week for a 200 pound person, but here's why it's so powerful. First, you are going to maintain almost all your muscle mass Like. That solves that problem right off the bat. When you're only dropping weight this slowly, your body has time to preserve that precious muscle tissue. Compare this to crash dieting, whether it's done on purpose or because you're on a weight loss drug GLP-1, you know, semaglutide, terzapatide, et cetera where you might sacrifice a decent amount of muscle as much as five to 10 pounds of muscle just to see the scale move faster.

Philip Pape: 9:39

The second thing is this approach has the highest adherence rate. Okay, I've seen this with client and it just makes mathematical sense. Why? Because you're not walking around starving all the time you can eat enough to fuel your workouts, to maintain your energy, to enjoy your food, and that's why I really like the slow burn. For a lot of people, again, you got to get out of the quick fix mentality and think I want to get the result. Yeah, but I actually want to keep the result and do it in a sustainable way. And, speaking of sustainability, it's perfect for that.

Philip Pape: 10:10

This is the third reason I love it so much. You've got enough mental bandwidth to focus on things like eating your protein, your meal prep, recovering from your workouts, your training, and you're not just white knuckling through hunger, right, you get the mental capacity to focus on the process and the habits. And then, finally, there's a lot of room for social flexibility. If you have a wedding, a holiday party, if you like to go out a lot, whatever it is, one higher calorie day isn't going to really do anything. It's not going to derail anything. It's going to be a blip because we're not talking about having a very aggressive deficit. You're always not that far from maintenance anyway and you're just doing the slow burn. So that's strategy number one.

Philip Pape: 10:47

Strategy number two this is the sweet spot and this is where you're targeting around a half to 1% of your body weight loss per week over about eight to 16 weeks. All right, this is actually my go-to approach for many clients because it perfectly balances the results with the sustainability. So it gets you there faster. And again, I can't discount the fact we do want to get there in a reasonable amount of time, right, or else we get impatient or we get mentally fatigued. So I understand speed is a factor, right, just not going too fast. And then the faster we go, the shorter the duration we can handle. So this is the sweet spot half to 1% loss per week over eight to 16 weeks. And so when you're losing about a pound a week for someone weighing 200 pounds, do easy math.

Philip Pape: 11:39

You can see meaningful changes in the mirror while still having enough calories to maintain the quality of your training, and I think that's really important. I think the quality and ability to perform in the gym is like half the equation when it comes to fat loss. All right, you're not going to feel like you're dragging yourself through your workouts and the psychological impact is also moderate. It's more than the slow burn, but it's still moderate Meaning. Yeah, you're going to feel like you're dieting. You're going to have a little bit of hunger, but it's not overwhelming. You can still think clearly at work. You can still engage people with people socially. You can still maintain your relationships. It's not some extreme like, say, a physique competitor would do, and I can't tell you how many clients appreciate this balance. And, by the way, the reason I use this and not the slow burn with most clients is because they have my support there to know that they can fall and they can trip a little bit along the way, but I'm gonna keep them going, I'm gonna be there for them and they'll learn the skills that they need faster because they're working with me to get there.

Philip Pape: 12:42

But you can definitely do this part on your own if you've got the right plan and the right approach. Now what's really nice about this is you have room for again some occasional higher calorie days, even if they're not planned in, even if they're not refeeds. Maybe you're going out to dinner with friends, maybe you've got a birthday coming up. You can just plan around the events for the week and not feel like you're really going way off, like oh my goodness, I'm just gonna wipe out my whole week's progress with this one thing. No, you can shift things a little bit and you've got some still plenty of flexibility. So that's the sweet spot.

Philip Pape: 13:15

So strategy number three Now this is rapid fat loss. Okay, so you'll notice strategies one, two, three are really different buckets of speed. And before we get to the advanced ones, this is rapid fat loss. Now I have to be very clear here. This is like a precision tool that should only be used in very specific situations. We are talking about losing one to one and a half percent of your body weight over a very short timeframe two to eight weeks max. And by eight weeks I mean like you really better have a lot of muscle mass and some decent weight to lose and be everything dialed in. I would say it's more like four weeks is where I've seen this happen, and if you've ever heard me talk about rates of loss over 1% is where you're starting to risk a little bit of muscle loss. That's why we keep the duration very short. The main benefit here is you guessed it speed, speed.

Philip Pape: 14:12

So if you do have a specific deadline, like a photo shoot or a wedding or a competition or that thing on the beach, right, for me it might be my upcoming. You know, we're going to Florida to Disney, we're going to visit my parents, we're going to go to the pool hey, I want to feel confident at the pool, that's all. So maybe I'm going to fit in a little rapid fat loss phase in the six weeks leading up to that point. This can definitely get you there, but you need to know exactly what you're doing with your training and nutrition Now, having this clear end point, like knowing it's going to end, and it's going to end pretty soon, that does help reduce mental fatigue because you know exactly when you'll be done right, and this isn't something you want to do indefinitely. And if you come to me and say, hey, philip, I did your rapid fat loss phase and I want to keep going, what do I do? I'm going to say don't keep going, that's ridiculous. You're just going to start losing muscle mass, your hormones are going to go crazy, you're going to feel terrible and it's going to end up backfiring. Just don't do it right, don't push it. But if you want to, if you're in the middle of a year or two year long building phase and you're like, hey, I just want to shed some fat really quickly in six or eight weeks Again, not a quick fix, this is a controlled high protein, almost like a protein sparing, modified fast.

Philip Pape: 15:22

If you've heard of that. It's very similar to that, but there's refeeds built in. There's a strategy to this and I wasn't going to mention this, but I do have a specific guide called Rapid Fat Loss. If you go to winstowheightscom, slash free, I'm not going to link it in the show notes, I'd rather you get the main precision fat loss guide and then you can like jump from there. But the key here is that short and also you have strategic refeeds and this is usually one day a week after about four days. So four days, very aggressive, and then one day of a refeed where you bump up your calories, mostly from carbs, right up to maintenance, and that's to. It's really to kind of just give you the mental break. It does help maintain some of your performance as well if timed appropriately, but it's mainly the mental break and the quick little jolt of recovery so you can keep going. So those are the three, I'll say, foundational strategies for fat loss.

Philip Pape: 16:18

And now I want to get to the three advanced approaches, and what you're going to find is that these advanced approaches are more about timing and other variables and you could in a way, combine them with the first three. Right, so you can. I would start with one of the first three and then look at the last three to decide okay, do I need to really change the timing significantly based on my life? And that's why you need the guide that I'm sharing, because it tells you later on, based on your situation, if this is appropriate. Okay. Strategy four, then, is called ride the wave. Yeah, I've got some silly names here. Okay, ride the wave.

Philip Pape: 16:56

And this is where things get interesting, because, instead of trying to hit the same calorie target every day which, again, I would recommend for most people to start out you are intentionally varying your intake throughout the week or month, and you've probably heard of carb cycling, calorie cycling. A lot of these strategies are going to be related to that. This approach is fantastic for people who have regular interruptions, regular social events. Maybe you would always go out on Saturdays Great. We plan to hire calories on those days and then we pull back a bit during the week, and the beauty of this strategy is how it reduces diet fatigue and even the fear that you're constantly failing. Even if you're not failing, you know, there's the mental side of oh, I went over again. I went over again. You're not constantly grinding away every day at the same calories that might feel restrictive to you. You've got those higher days to look forward to, right? Not cheat days, but they're planned days where you up the carbs and they're planned in, and this makes the whole process itself again more sustainable for people who have these regular interruptions.

Philip Pape: 18:00

Now, one of my favorite applications is structuring this around training. Right, we got to be careful, though this is where classic calorie cycling comes in, or carb cycling where, all right, you've got a big leg day, we're going to bump up our calories and carbs on those days. On recovery days, we pull back a bit. The caveat is for some people, this backfires because they need more days. We pull back a bit. The caveat is for some people, this backfires because they need more. They need just as many calories on recovery days to feel like they're bringing it back from the fold as they head into the next training day. And it also depends on your training schedule, what time of the day you train, and on and on right. So, again, this is just an example, but ride the wave is essentially what it sounds like. It's you riding the wave of your life, of your week, of your months, of your seasons.

Philip Pape: 18:43

Strategy number five All right, this is called alternating phases and I'll say that this takes the ride, the wave concept, to the next level in which you have a periodized on off. That on-off can be any length, so you might do two weeks of aggressive dieting followed by two weeks of maintenance, and this is especially powerful for advanced lifters, for example, who really understand their bodies, or sometimes women, to line it up with their menstrual cycles, which again, don't just start there, because, for I would say, 90% of women, they don't need to do that, but there's a small subset who it could help. It also might line up with your work schedule, your shift schedule. You know, I have a client who's a I think they call it a magistrate because it's not in the US but she has like intense, like a few intense months where she can't get much sleep, and then a few intense, a few months of total time to do whatever she wants, almost Right. And that's where you can line up the dieting across a month on, month off, two months on, two months off, very much like this stair step approach that I mentioned quite a few episodes ago. You can go, look it up my stair step fat loss process of okay, I'm going to diet for a while and then I'm going to stop, and then I'm going to go on and then I'm going to stop, right.

Philip Pape: 20:06

It's just an overarching alternating phase approach and the mental relief during those maintenance phases can be massive. It could be the exact thing you need just to hold steady, get recovered, eat more food, feel more energized, give your body a break from the stress of dieting. Your hormones get a chance to recover if it's long enough during those phases. Leptin, thyroid, testosterone they all drop during extended dieting and they come back fairly quickly, but not like in a day. So when you alternate, say two weeks on two weeks off or a month on a month off, it can be an interesting way to manipulate that situation. You are not, I repeat, you are not just artificially increasing your metabolism that is bogus BS, myth stuff but you are getting a massive break and things recover to the point where, physically and mentally, you're ready to go for the next phase, which means you're going to stick with it. It's going to be sustainable. Hugely helpful for that.

Philip Pape: 21:02

And then number six strategy. Number six is what I call the recharge, recomp. And again, I don't get any awards for these names. I like alliteration, let's just put it that way Recharge, recomp. So recomp, as in recomposition, where you build muscle and lose fat at the same time, this is technically not even a fat loss phase. You are eating at maintenance while focusing on getting your act together with your training and with your recovery, and this works incredibly well between more focused fat loss phases or if you've got a high stress period.

Philip Pape: 21:39

So the reason I include this as its own strategy is to sort of give yourself the permission to drop this in when you need it. Maybe you didn't plan out alternating phases, maybe you're doing the same calories every day for weeks on end and all of a sudden you're like something is not working, or I'm hitting a plateau, or I'm just not feeling it. I don't want to be dieting, or this thing has come up in my life and I want to take the opportunity for the next month to focus on that. Drop this in. Think of it as a fat loss phase within your overall fat loss approach. It's kind of a mental switch, a flip the script, if you will. You're recharging and you're re-comping. You're trying to still lose a little fat slowly and you might even gain some muscle where you weren't necessarily gaining during fat loss, but you're not ready to push it to a building phase yet or come out of your fat loss phase. You still have more to go, so to speak. So the recharge, re-comp this is its own special strategy that can fit wherever you want or need it. So those are the six strategies and I believe, having gone through this and created this guide in today's episode, this covers the vast majority, if not all cases you could possibly think of, because you can combine these as well.

Philip Pape: 22:49

So the next thing I want to talk about is how your metabolism adapts during fat loss, because this is going to influence which strategy will work best for you, in addition to the other things that we'll get to later. So I want to talk about the three types of metabolic adaptation that happen when you diet, because this is highly misunderstood. So this is when your hormones start to downregulate Things like thyroid, testosterone, leptin. They all decrease and this is your body's way of trying to conserve energy.

Philip Pape: 23:22

Some people have used the term starvation mode, and I don't like that so much, but I get where they're going. It's your body clamping down. It has a built-in preservation system that says, hey, food seems scarce, energy's not coming in, let's slow everything down, right? That's one thing. Then there's the reduction in your daily energy expenditure from the things you may not even notice. You might not even notice that you're not fidgeting as much. You're taking the elevator instead of the stairs, like you just get a little slower and sluggish and, unconsciously or not, decide to not move as often, or maybe you're going to park closer to the store. But not only that your body gets more efficient with movement, which sounds great, but it actually means you're burning fewer calories doing the same activities. So all of this comes into play.

Philip Pape: 24:07

And then the third type of adaptation is probably the most noticeable, and that is the increased hunger signaling that comes along for the ride. And that is because your hunger hormones, like ghrelin they, go up, while the fullness signals leptin we talked about decrease. And so it's not about willpower. This is your body actively fighting against fat loss, and this is why it matters for choosing one of the strategies we talked about, because the more aggressive your approach, the faster these adaptations kick in. And I didn't even talk about the adaptation that occurs because you just weigh less. Right, by carrying around less body weight, you're going to burn fewer calories. Yes, I don't think of that as a metabolic adaptation so much as just pure math based on body mass, right. So if you go with something like rapid fat loss, let's say, all right, you might see these changes I just talked about. These adaptations occur within days.

Philip Pape: 25:00

When we did our challenge for this, probably more than a year ago, I recruited some folks in the community and we all did it together. I saw people's expenditures drop pretty quickly. Now you couldn't tell in the data until days later, or even a few weeks later, because we use averages and trends, but you can tell in retrospect that it dropped a lot faster than it would normally. With the slow burn approach, on the other hand, right strategy one, these are going to happen much more gradually, and then it gives you time to adjust to them. This is where this personal metabolic resilience comes in.

Philip Pape: 25:35

I think this is something that a lot of people overlook. This is your dieting history and your history of yo-yo dieting how often you've dieted in the past. That history is going to play a huge role today. I'm sorry to say it, if you've done a lot of crash dieting in the past, your metabolism might be a little more sensitive to calorie restriction, and we don't entirely always know why this is, and it's not necessarily a massive difference.

Philip Pape: 26:01

For a lot of people, it's just because you have less muscle mass, right, which means, on the other hand, if you spent good time at maintenance and building muscle and not dieting as much, you might be able to handle more aggressive approaches better. But at the end of the day, this just comes down to the fact that you have a higher metabolic rate, and some of you are blessed with that. Some of you are not. The genetics make a difference, and on and on and on. That's why personalizing these strategies are helpful, and when we come back after the break, I'm going to help you choose the best strategy for you and then implement it. Plus, I'm going to reveal the surprising truth about adherence that changes how you think about good and bad days in your diet. And then I'm going to reveal one thing that all successful people do to stick with their fat loss plan and actually get the result they want. Stay with me.

Max: 26:47

Shout out to Philippe. I know Philippe for a long time. I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength, and that's why I chose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations, while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably. If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking for, philly Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 27:31

Welcome back Now. I'm going to walk you through exactly how to pick the right strategy based on where you're at right now. If you are a beginner, stick with the slow burn or the sweet spot period. I just simplified the whole thing for you. Forget the rest. Forget number three, four, five, six. Pick number one or two. You need to build those fundamental habits. First, consistent protein intake, regular training, proper recovery. It's like if you learn to drive, you wouldn't start on a Formula One racetrack.

Philip Pape: 28:02

Intermediate folks now, by intermediate that's a very flexible term, but to me that's someone who has some experience training and maybe some experience dieting, but not necessarily In that case you can use any approach, except rapid fat loss is what I'm going to say. So approaches one, two, four, five, six. Because you understand how your body responds to different calorie levels and training intensities. You've got some experience reading your body's signals. So again, even if you haven't, like expressly gone through these types of highly targeted track fat loss phases, you still probably have experience from dieting in general and kind of understanding how your body reacts. But just make sure you truly feel like you have that experience. Otherwise, if you're like this all is new to me consider yourself a beginner, even if you're a more experienced trainer. So that's kind of what I mean is the experience with the dieting and the training together. Now, if you're more advanced, if you've gone through bulks and cuts, you've trained for a while, you're an athlete, et cetera you can use any strategy, but you still have to match it to your goals, right? So if you're prepping for a show, yeah, maybe rapid fat loss makes sense and maybe not, right? I know I talk to a lot of bodybuilders and they actually want to take time to get there and cut over time. Maybe you have some other event or date on the calendar where rapid fat loss makes sense. If you're in a high stress period, maybe that's where you want to drop in one of these recharge, recomp periods and just say, look, I'm not going to give up on fat loss, but I know that it doesn't make sense for me to be in a calorie deficit right now, but I'm going to put it on hold and continue later. But I'm going to still focus on doing all the right things keeping it sustainable, recharging and recovering my metabolism so I stop under eating and then maybe get some recomp as a side benefit. So, other than that, there are multiple other scenarios in the guide itself.

Philip Pape: 29:58

I didn't want this podcast to be three hours long, but there are, I think, four tables for four different types of tendencies or things to think about. There's a table on personal tendencies Do you love tracking, for example and so I want you to go through the guide yourself and just look at each one and say, okay, I'm that person. Here are the things yes, yes, no, no. That could work for me. So what I really want to do today is get to how to implement this. So, once you've picked the strategy, okay. So I gave you the six strategies, I gave you some thoughts on personalization, but definitely get the guide to get all the details, and then now we're going to talk about implementing at a very high level.

Philip Pape: 30:40

All right, the first thing you have to do to implement a fat loss phase is you've got to know your numbers, and the best, the first number you have to know is your maintenance calories. Your maintenance calories are the calories you burn every day. The best approach is to track your food and your weight for at least two weeks and see how your weight responds to your food. That is the only accurate way to do it. First start, but they can be off by hundreds of calories. I think I used to say 400 calories in either direction and I heard someone recently say a 700 calorie swing, so I think it's the same idea. I don't know if they meant 700 either direction or just 700 total, like you could be up and down 350, but it's insanely inaccurate. Your true maintenance calories are probably going to surprise you, because I've had clients who thought they maintained at 1800 and then we get them eating more and recovering and they're actually closer to 2500. And I'll be honest, there's some that are the opposite. They're like yeah, I should be burning 2000, but I'm not losing weight. Well, it's because you actually burned 1600. So the only way to do that is to track your food and weight.

Philip Pape: 31:52

And if you want an app that will do that for you so you don't have to pull out a complicated spreadsheet, download Macrofactor, use my code Wits and Weights. All one word. Yes, this is a plug, but it's a plug for my favorite app. I use it, my clients use it, I talk about it all the time because it's the only app that calculates your maintenance calories accurately and that's what you need to get the targets. Forget the other apps MyFitnessPal, chronometer and so on. They don't do that, so all they are are glorified loggers. They allow you to log food and then they're like tell us what your targets are. I'm like I don't know what my target is. Well, macrofactor gives you the target. Every week you check in, it gives you a new target based on how your and your weight. So you've got to start with that number, because that's the number you would eat to maintain your weight.

Philip Pape: 32:46

And if you're not even eating enough to maintain your weight, that's a whole separate process. Okay, I talked about on the last episode, the last Monday episode, about the 12 month plan. I talked about this recomp phase. Not even talking about that. Today I'm jumping right to the fat loss phase. Once you've done all that setup, you've got your routine in place, and so on. Okay, so if you don't even know all the things you need to do to set yourself up for success in fat loss, go listen to that episode. See episode 260, oh, it was before the new, it was before the replays that came out. Go look for it. It says 12-month plan for your best physique in 2025, something like that. I'll include a link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 33:27

Once you have your maintenance calories, then what do you do next for macros? Get this question all the time. We're gonna set our protein next. We're gonna aim for 0.7 to 1 gram per pound, and you can convert to kilograms if you want. 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of your target body weight. So if you're 220 pounds, you're trying to get to 180, you're trying to lose 40 pounds, doesn't matter. Use 180 as your protein target max. So 0.7 of that to 1 times that, right. So what would 0.7 be? It'd be something like 150 or something. So you'd be around 150 to 180 grams of protein. Okay, don't. If it seems like too much, like way too much, bring it down toward that 0.7. You don't have to go to the one and, by the way, there's no benefit to going beyond that, whether you're in a cut or not, other than the tiny situation of the rapid fat loss phase where you might need to crank it up just a little bit. But even getting to that one is probably enough, even during that.

Philip Pape: 34:26

Now, so you've got your calories, you've got your maintenance calories, you've got your protein. Now those maintenance calories are going to drop to the real target. You need to lose fat, right, and that's going to be based on the strategy you picked from what we talked about earlier. So let's say we're using the sweet spot at a half to 1% of your body weight a week, and so that's going to be about a 500 calorie daily deficit for a 200 pound person. Again, we're not going to do all the math on the show here, but that's what it comes out to be and you can adjust it as you go, like if that's too aggressive, not aggressive enough, you can always adjust it as you go. So once you have that deficit, now you've got your protein, the protein calories will be taking up some of those calories. Then fats and carbs are very flexible, and that's all I'm going to say about fats and carbs. Basically, if you set fats to around 30% of your calories and carbs the rest, that's a good starting point.

Philip Pape: 35:21

Some of you may want a lot less fat, some of you a lot more. I definitely have heard that people on GLP-1 drugs, for example, like semaglutide and trisepatide, do better with lower fat. Just something happens where they have to go to the bathroom or they eat too much fat. So you personally may have different preferences and those preferences shouldn't be based on what someone said about keto or low carb or anything like that. It should be based on how you respond to the fat and carb levels with your energy, with your performance, with your recovery, with your preferences. All of that, all right. And then you want to track all of this. Now, again, if you get macro factor, you can track your food and get your targets based on your real results. But you could use a notebook, you can use a spreadsheet A million ways to do this. All right.

Philip Pape: 36:07

So we've got our calories, we've got our deficit, so it brings the calories down. We anchored our protein and then filled in the rest with fats and carbs. And then a much less concerned, but still has a little bit of importance, is your meal timing. So people are like, okay, now, when do I eat? What do I eat? How do I do this? My main recommendation here is to plan a decent amount of protein and carbs around your training, whether that's in the evening, whether that's in the morning. So if you lift in the evening, you can have more calories later in the day. If you're in the morning, you're going to have more in the morning. Pre-workout, post-workout, and then just keep things balanced as the day goes on. So keep the fats low pre-workout, but other than that, keep everything balanced. Also, don't train fasted, don't go low carb before your workout, just have some protein and carbs before and after. Other situations like low carb, keto, et cetera. Yeah, you're going to have to make adjustments if you want to follow those protocols For the training itself, the goal here is to maintain your strength.

Philip Pape: 37:05

That is absolutely the goal. To maintain your strength, to maintain your numbers. If not, push your numbers higher where possible during fat loss. A lot of people make the mistake of dropping their weight and going higher reps when cutting, thinking it's some sort of fat-burning, you know whatever. A fat loss style workout, endurance, cardio, things like that no, keep pushing the heavy compounds, the heavy lifts, the typical types of training, to give yourself that signal, to preserve muscle.

Philip Pape: 37:33

And then you want to track things to let you know that you are making progress right, not just your scale, weight and your calories and your metabolism, but also the trend in all of those your progress photos, your training performance, your body measurements. I like your waist, especially as a great indicator of fat loss for most people. A great indicator of fat loss for most people. Obviously, progress photos. You're not going to see a lot of change from one week to the next, but if you take it every week, then four, five, six weeks apart you can start seeing changes and that validates that, hey, what I'm doing is actually working. And then just the fact that you are adhering to this process and to those targets, that you are doing something every day For many of us, that is okay. We're logging in macro factor every day. We're putting our trend weight in every day. We're logging our workouts every time we go.

Philip Pape: 38:20

I've had some calls with folks and I asked them how do you track your workouts? They're like yeah, I don't really track them. Okay, it's like calculus then and advanced math to be able to remember every PR from the 20 lifts you just did last week. Impossible, not going to happen. You got to track. Now what most people miss is they get obsessed over the individual data points, and we don't want to do that. We want to look at trends, not data points. We want to have the data points when we look at trends.

Philip Pape: 38:48

One higher scale weight during fat loss means absolutely nothing. For you to gain a pound of fat in one day means you would over consume by 3,500 calories. Well, if you ate roughly the same you did every day before that in that week, and then you gain two pounds. It's not fat, it's water weight, it's glycogen inflammation. There's a whole bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with fat. It's probably going to come right back down, and so what matters is the averages over time. All right, so here's something fascinating Most people don't realize about successful fat loss.

Philip Pape: 39:22

The most successful clients I've had are not the ones that follow the plan perfectly. You're like what Don't you give them a plan and you give them accountability and support, check-ins, and that you're saying they don't follow the plan? No, I'm saying they don't follow it perfectly. They are the ones. The successful ones are the ones who build in the strategic flexibility from the start. I help them do that, I help them identify how to do that, but they understand right from day one that this is not a game of a perfect plan and perfect execution. This is a game of real life, and so let's account for that right.

Philip Pape: 40:03

Think about this If you're doing the slow burn approach and you you're losing a half a percent per week, you can have an entire week where you maintain weight or even gain a little weight and still average out to your target over a month, right, and this, this changes how you think about progress. It also takes enormous pressure off of you, right. It reduces stress, it takes off pressure off a single day or even a single week. And as far as being a coach, I can definitely help people process those thoughts, those emotions, those fears, to realize that that's the case, right, because we can't always see inside ourselves. We get in our own heads. And what's better than that? Even than that, um, the way you think about progress is that your body can respond really well to the consistent variation you give it because it's in this low stress way. In other words, you're planning it in. You avoid extremes like even the ride, the wave and the alternate phase.

Philip Pape: 40:56

Approach, I'm not approach. If I sat down with you and we mapped that out, I wouldn't have like a thousand calorie difference one day to the next. It would still be within spitting distance, so that your body feels assured and safe, let's say, to lose fat. But then it reduces the overall stress on you, which helps with your metabolism because you're planning it in and giving yourself the chance to succeed, and then your metabolism is maybe firing a little bit higher, burning a few more calories as a result, and then it makes the fat loss easier. So the fact that you've built in sustainability, you've slowed yourself down, will probably help you speed up the whole process at the end. Isn't that cool, all right.

Philip Pape: 41:36

As we wrap up, let me emphasize something really important, and that is fat loss does not have to be a miserable grind. It doesn't okay. There's going to be some hunger and some challenges. Absolutely and too many people think suffering equals progress. It's not true. If you can choose a strategy aligned to your situation and then implement it properly with flexibility, you can achieve the results and live your life. They are not mutually exclusive, and that's the way I love to do it, and that's why, once you do that a few times, you realize yeah, it's not so hard. I actually got this, I have the confidence to do this and I don't have to do it too often throughout the year. If you go back and listen to my 12 month episode, you'll understand that I want you to spend probably nine months out of the year not dieting, but when you do have to go after it, you're going to do it just like this, with precision.

Philip Pape: 42:24

All right, if you want to implement these strategies properly. Download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide. Again, it includes the detailed breakdowns of all six strategies, a decision matrix to help you choose the right one, and then some step-by-step implementation guidelines. Use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free, where I have a ton of guides, by the way, but for this specific one it's called Precision Fat Loss Link is in the show notes, or go to witsandweightscom slash free. All right, until next time. I hope you guys love this one. This was actually a fun one to put together and I hope it kind of maps out my overall thoughts on fat loss in general. Until next time, I want you to keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember the best fat loss strategy isn't the one that works fastest, it's the one you can stick with long enough to actually work. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights and I will talk to you next time.

Why Stress & Cortisol Are Destroying Your Fat Loss and What to Do About It (Molly McNamee) | Ep 265

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Why does your body hold onto fat even when you’re training hard and eating right? Could chronic stress be sabotaging your metabolism, sleep, and recovery? How can small, manageable habits drastically change your stress levels and fitness results?

Philip (@witsandweights) is joined by stress expert and fitness coach Molly McNamee. Together, they unpack the science of chronic stress, its impact on your hormones, metabolism, and body composition, and the small but powerful lifestyle shifts you can make to feel and look your best.

Molly McNamee is a fitness coach specializing in stress management and its connection to body composition. With years of experience in understanding the interplay between chronic stress, the nervous system, and fitness goals, Molly provides evidence-based strategies for restoring balance and achieving results.

If you’re stuck in a plateau, feeling burnt out, or just want to optimize your fitness journey, this is your blueprint.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:15 Stress isn’t all bad: The case for balance
05:41 How chronic stress disrupts fat loss and recovery
12:14 Understanding exercise stress and cortisol
18:34 High-intensity training and your stress response
20:42 Small habits for stress resilience
26:37 Understanding stress and diet effects
31:06 Stress management through routines and play
40:17 Reframing negative self-talk and using your name
44:51 The power of small pauses
50:38 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download Molly’s free Conquer Your Cortisol ebook

• Instagram:  @mfit.workouts
  

How Stress and Cortisol Impact Fat Loss and What to Do About It

If you’ve been pushing yourself in the gym, tracking your food meticulously, and still not seeing fat loss results, stress might be the missing piece of the puzzle. Chronic stress can wreak havoc on your metabolism, disrupt your sleep, and leave you spinning your wheels no matter how dialed in your fitness routine seems.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I sat down with Molly McNamee to break down the science behind stress, cortisol, and how they impact fat loss. We also explored actionable ways to manage stress without turning your life upside down.

The Role of Stress in Fat Loss

Stress is a natural part of life, and in small doses, it can actually help you perform better. Whether it’s powering through a big presentation or setting a new PR in the gym, short bursts of stress can drive results. But when stress becomes chronic, it’s a different story.

Your body’s stress response, also known as the fight-or-flight mechanism, can lead to:

• Increased fat storage (especially around the belly).

• Decreased metabolic rate.

• Poor digestion and nutrient absorption.

• Interrupted sleep and recovery.

Understanding these effects is key to breaking through fat loss plateaus and optimizing your results.

What Is Cortisol and Why It Matters

Cortisol is a hormone released during stress that helps regulate energy, metabolism, and other essential processes. While cortisol gets a bad rap, it’s not inherently harmful. The issue arises when chronic stress keeps cortisol elevated for too long.

High cortisol levels can lead to:

• Difficulty losing fat despite being in a calorie deficit.

• Loss of muscle due to impaired repair and protein synthesis.

• Constant fatigue and poor energy levels.

It’s important to focus on the root cause of elevated cortisol—chronic stress—rather than the hormone itself.

The Connection Between Stress, Training, and Results

Exercise is a stressor, and not all stress is bad. However, the type, intensity, and frequency of your workouts can either help or hurt your stress levels.

• High-intensity training: Powerlifting, HIIT, and long-duration cardio can spike cortisol, especially if you’re already dealing with chronic stress.

• Low-intensity movement: Activities like walking, yoga, or mobility work activate your parasympathetic nervous system, promoting relaxation and recovery.

Balancing your training intensity with restorative activities is critical for stress management and sustainable progress.

Signs That Stress Is Stalling Your Fat Loss

Not sure if stress is the issue? Pay attention to these signs:

• Poor sleep or difficulty staying asleep.

• Constant cravings for sugary or high-fat foods.

• Feeling rundown or unable to recover from workouts.

• Digestion issues, including bloating or irregularity.

• Fatigue or lack of motivation.

If any of these resonate, it’s time to address your stress head-on.

Practical Ways to Manage Stress

1. Pause Between Activities
   Take 30 seconds to reset between tasks—whether it’s after a workout, before eating, or transitioning between meetings. A simple pause can help calm your nervous system.

2. Create Flexible Routines
   Consistency with sleep, meals, and movement helps your body feel safe. Build routines that align with your schedule, but allow room for life’s unpredictability.

3. Focus on Play and Fun
   Engage in hobbies, laugh more, and prioritize activities that bring you joy. Smiling and laughter can naturally lower stress hormones.

4. Reframe Negative Self-Talk
   Talk to yourself using your name, as if coaching a friend. For example, “Philip, you’ve got this!” This small shift can help you approach challenges with a more positive mindset.

5. Track Biofeedback
   Keep a simple journal to monitor sleep quality, digestion, cravings, and energy levels. Spotting patterns in your biofeedback can guide your approach to stress management.

The Bigger Picture

If you’ve been struggling to lose fat, build muscle, or simply feel your best, chronic stress could be holding you back. But the solution doesn’t have to involve a complete lifestyle overhaul. Start with small, intentional changes—like taking a few deep breaths, adjusting your training, or adding more fun to your day—and watch how your body responds.

Send questions to @witsandweights

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been tracking your food, training consistently and seemingly doing everything right but still can't lose fat, or if you're dealing with constant fatigue, cravings and poor recovery despite your best effort, this episode is for you. Today, we are revealing how chronic stress affects your entire system, from your nervous system to your metabolism, to your hormones, including cortisol, and why understanding this connection could be the key to breaking through some of those plateaus. You'll learn exactly what happens in your body during chronic stress, how it impacts fat loss and muscle gain and, most importantly, what you can do about it. If you're feeling burnt out, stuck or just wanting to optimize your results, today's episode will help you work with your biology instead of against it. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:58

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm discussing the science of stress, metabolism and body composition with Molly McNamee. Molly specializes in understanding that complex relationship between chronic stress, the nervous system and even your physique results. She spent years studying how stress affects our entire hormonal cascade including, yes, cortisol, but many others as well and developing evidence-based strategies to help restore balance. Today, you're going to learn what happens in your body during chronic stress, why this matters for fat loss and muscle gain, and practical strategies that work. We're going to explore how different types of training affect your stress response, what lifestyle factors make the biggest difference and specific techniques to build stress resilience. Molly, welcome to the show.

Molly McNamee: 1:45

Thank you for having me here. I'm really excited to be here today.

Philip Pape: 1:49

I'm excited as well. We were talking before we started recording about the fitness space and the fitness industry and how sometimes cortisol is made out to be the big enemy of X fat loss, whatever, and I wanted to start from that opposite end just to set context with the question. Is there a case where stress is good? What is stress good for, so we don't think it's just a boogeyman to everything and then we can look at the opposite and what we're really concerned about.

Molly McNamee: 2:15

Yeah. So I talk about stress a lot with my clients and on my platforms and I always have people come to me saying, okay, well, there's stress in my life, I'm trying to get rid of this, I don't know what to do about it. And then I tell them the goal is not no stress. That is impossible to not have stress in your life. Instead, the goal is really just to help manage your body's stress response better and make sure stress isn't consuming every part of you.

Molly McNamee: 2:40

So, yes, you can have stress in your life and stress can be really good. I mean, if you think about, like, giving a presentation at work, for example, or if you're a performer, like it's good to feel some of that stress and anxious energy before you get going, it can help you perform better. So stress in itself is not just bad, but what is bad is how stress often then consumes our body and then makes it hard to you know, live and function and act the way that we want it to. So, as we have this conversation, yeah, saying that right off the bat of the goal is not no stress is super important. It's just figuring out how to balance that stress and manage that stress better so that it's not all consuming.

Philip Pape: 3:22

Yeah, fair point and we're going to definitely get into that better so that it's not all consuming. Yeah, fair point and we're going to definitely get into that. So if related to that, if there was a myth or trend out there right now, on Instagram, on social media, wherever people are following, you could like, snap your fingers and just like, put the kibosh on it, just get rid of it. What would that be?

Molly McNamee: 3:38

Well, like, one of my biggest pet peeves with the fitness industry as a whole is just the all or nothing mentality, and that can be applied to pretty much any trend that I see.

Molly McNamee: 3:48

So there are a lot of trends that I would like to snap my fingers and have it go away, but it's mainly that mentality of this is the only thing that works. You're going to follow exactly this and this is going to get you that dream body, and if you do anything else, it's not going to work. I would like for that to go away. I also would really like, just from a stress point, the mentality that the only way to get in shape is to feel absolutely dead after your workouts. I would like for that myth to completely go away, because for a lot of people, pushing your body to an extreme is making their problems worse. So that extremist nature of the fitness industry as a whole I would like that to go away. And then I'm sure, if I thought deeper, there are a lot of like little stupid training and things that I would like to go, but it all comes down to that extremist of this is the way and it has to be extreme and that's all that works.

Philip Pape: 4:41

It's not true. No, no, you're right and you hit me really close to the heart on that one. Only because when the trolls come out on YouTube, it's the videos that are triggering people's. You know, latching on to almost a cult-like adherence to one thing right, like intermittent fasting is the only way to do this and it's we're going to work for everybody, or this one thing is the only way to do it. So that's important because people are listening. It's the nuances and it's the personalization. We're going to talk about that.

Philip Pape: 5:06

As far as training goes, I do want to get into. You know why don't we jump right into that? Because people are listening, care about primarily their body composition and their energy levels and just feeling and looking great as a human being, especially as we get older. So when someone's dealing with chronic stress, the standard advice is sometimes cut back on everything. Sometimes, like you said, it's do more of something. So when we talk about workouts, intensity activities in your life, I feel like it's oversimplified. What does the research say, or what do you say about how stress affects our results in the context of just doing too much?

Molly McNamee: 5:42

Yeah, and, as you said, it is totally convoluted, like in the space, because people are hearing things from every different angle and every body is different is really the baseline statement that I go into when I work with clients. I'm like, how I'm going to train you is going to be different from like the answer someone else needs Because it's interesting, because my story I can share a little bit of. I find that a lot of people who have a similar story to me need similar advice to me. People who don't have a similar story to me don't need advice same advice as me. So I would say that I have had high functioning anxiety for my whole life, so I'm always running a bit higher than other people. So what I need from a workout routine is far different from someone else who is not always running on that high end where they're always feeling a bit anxious. They can handle a bit more intensity, but someone who has a baseline level of anxiety in their body they can't handle the same amount of intensity. So, as you said, the answer isn't okay. You need to stop doing everything if you're feeling anxious or if your nervous system is a wreck. It's just finding the right things to do and tweaking things slightly.

Molly McNamee: 6:51

So I find a lot of people when they hear, oh, you're dealing with chronic stress, you should do less. They then jump to the extreme of doing basically nothing. But when I tell people you should do less, it really just means like you're taking two steps backward. So if you're doing cardio every single day, it's okay. Can we take out one cardio session? Can we take out two cardio sessions? And then the other extreme is true. If they're currently doing nothing and they're being told that they should start being active for their mental health or for their stress levels, the answer isn't start working out every single day. It's baby steps forward and baby steps back. So, wherever you're currently at, it's hard for me to say oh, there's one answer for you. Wherever you're currently at, it's going to be either a little step forward or a little step back. Is the answer of do more or do less?

Philip Pape: 7:39

Yeah, and it sounds like, since it's a spectrum, there could be people who are doing, let's say, the right amount of clock time of something, but not the right thing for that clock time right. So it's not just a matter of more or less time doing something. Let's take a step back now so we don't get too far down that rabbit hole and just talk about chronic stress, what it is, how it affects the body, so that people can understand the signs as we move forward, because we're trying to empower people, not just like here are your 20 solutions and here's your decision tree. It's how do I recognize this in myself so that I know something needs to change?

Molly McNamee: 8:12

Yeah, absolutely. Well, our bodies are really cool, like they have this whole stress response system that's there specifically to keep us safe and that's amazing. We don't want that to change. No-transcript. Look and feel the way that you want to Because, as I said, your body's trying to keep you safe when it's stressed.

Molly McNamee: 8:51

So that means it's going to start to hold on to body fat because it's saying I need as much as I can on my body to keep this body safe, so it's going to store as much as it can. Your metabolism is going to slow down because your body is going to say we need to burn fewer calories because we need to keep this body safe for as long as possible. You're also going to find you can't really sleep because your body doesn't think it's safe to. You're not going to be properly digesting food because your body is rushing that process because it doesn't think it has time to do. That is rushing that process because it doesn't think it has time to do that. So that is fine in small doses. Like I said before, stress is fine to have in your life, but when you're constantly in that state, you're just going to find your body's working against you. So if you're actively trying to build muscle or actively trying to lose weight and you are dealing with chronic stress. It's going to be impossible because your body is doing as much as it can to keep your body existing as it currently is. So a lot of people will feel like, oh, my body is like something sabotaging me. My body's doing nothing that I want it to do, and that, of course, makes sense, because if you're trying to burn a bunch of calories and your body is trying to not burn a bunch of calories, that's going to be kind of frustrating.

Molly McNamee: 10:06

So, like I said, it's amazing how our bodies operate and they, like, have these systems that keep our body functioning.

Molly McNamee: 10:14

But because of the way we all kind of live our life right now, we're jumping from one stressful thing to the next stressful thing, to the next stressful thing, and then that stress response is just constantly activated and that's going to make it hard to exist in the way that you want to exist.

Molly McNamee: 10:28

I mean, I experienced that firsthand where I could gain 20 pounds without changing anything about my exercise routine or my lifestyle and I was like, well, why is this happening? This doesn't make sense at all. But it was just that stress sitting in my body. That was making it hard for my body to do what I wanted it to do. So it's very frustrating, but it's also I'm not saying that to scare anyone because there are easy ways to kind of navigate out of that. But yeah, I find a lot of people who come to work with me are saying I've been trying stuff for years like nothing is working for me and that's just because they've been upsetting their nervous system for years and now their nervous system is saying you're not going to do what I want you to do.

Philip Pape: 11:12

Yeah, I think it's an important message. You're right, because there's this like stress stack that's just built on top one on top of the other, on top of the other, and you just talked about how it's a vicious cycle of. You know, if your stress is higher, then sleep can be poor, Then digestion can be poor, then gut health, you know. Then, then then right, and at the end of the day, right. We talk about energy balance.

Philip Pape: 11:33

I just posted something this morning on threads about like the root cause of obesity isn't the overeating, it's what's causing the overeating, and stress is among those many, many factors. And, like you said in your personal story, it's not even overeating like you're eating more, it's just your body is clamping down more and more and now you're eating more than your body needs in the moment because it's stressed. So you mentioned muscle building just briefly. I do want to touch on that. How does this chronic stress affect both the muscle repair that occurs after we work out and also new muscle protein synthesis? And let's talk about people who aren't even dieting, because dieting is its own stress. Let's say you're just kind of at maintenance. How does stress affect that process?

Molly McNamee: 12:14

Yeah. So stress affects a few things that would influence how you're able to build muscle, and one you touched on it before sleep. So if your body is stressed, you're not getting good sleep and you need good sleep for your muscles to repair and change and grow. So you may feel like, oh, I'm lifting the heaviest weights, then you're not sleeping and then your muscles you're just feeling constantly sore and your body's not changing the way that you want it.

Molly McNamee: 12:41

Another thing is digestion, as we talked about. You could feel like, oh, I'm eating protein, I'm doing the things, why aren't I feeling stronger? But if you're eating stressed out, your body's not really going to absorb those macronutrients and those vitamins and everything the way that you want it to, because your body's stressed and again, it's rushing that digestion process. So to build muscle, you need the proper recovery, like you need to be training those muscles and you need to be feeding those muscles. And if your body is stressed, it's hard to get the recovery or the nutrients or like to feel strong in your workouts because, energy wise, you're going to feel tired and you're going to feel weak.

Philip Pape: 13:22

Yeah, yeah, it's important, yeah. So, again, it just all connects together. You mentioned soreness. I think that's a good point because, again, one pet peeve of mine is the people chasing soreness for its own sake, and oftentimes soreness is a an indicator of something that needs to change right. Like you said, it's either recovery there's good soreness, like when you start a new lift. Uh, these are all signs and we're going to get into some of that biofeedback later so that people can understand. Okay, maybe here's a checklist they can go through. But I want to touch on cortisol now, because cortisol has a place in this big picture and, at the same time, we don't want to hyper-focus, I think, on just cortisol because maybe it's a downstream indicator of something rather than necessarily root cause. What are your thoughts on all that?

Molly McNamee: 14:03

Yeah, it is very rarely the root cause. It is like cortisol is being released in your body when your sympathetic nervous system is activated, which is that part of your nervous system that is creating that fight or flight response in your body. So it's often the case of your nervous system is causing the cortisol to rise and not your cortisol is the mystery of where did this come from? Why is this happening? So I do often think there's too much simplifying when it comes to cortisol or hormones or, honestly, you could think of a lot of topics. There's a lot of simplifying of like oh well, this is the result, so this is the problem and I need to fix it somehow. It's same with people who are bloated. They're like oh, I'm bloated, Bloating is my problem. Bloating isn't the problem. Bloating is the result of something else. That's a problem, and that is what cortisol is. It's the result of something else. That is the problem and going on in your body.

Philip Pape: 15:03

Yeah, cool, yeah, because again, there's lots of tests you can get suckered into. I heard about them, some better than others. There's the Dutch test and there's I don't know if that one covers cortisol, but there's like different hormonal panels people get and in some cases I wonder if people are overreacting to their cortisol curves when something's completely normal for them In other cases it's a sign so let's talk about the different things that then affect our stress response that we can do something about, starting with exercise and training, which we've alluded to. How do the different types of movement and exercise affect this chronic stress?

Molly McNamee: 15:38

Yeah, so every workout is going to trigger some stress response in your body. Exercise is a stressor and again, that's why we were saying stress as a whole is not bad. Some stress is good, but some workouts will stress your body out more than others. So something that is more high intensity, that is pushing your body to an absolute max whether that's with cardio or whether it's with powerlifting and you're lifting the heaviest weights you possibly can or you're running as fast as you possibly can and you're doing highly intense workouts. That's going to cause your nervous system to spike more than other workouts would. Also, long workouts keep your nervous system spiked in that stressful state for much longer.

Molly McNamee: 16:23

Obviously, every workout is a stressor. So if you're working out for two hours straight, your body is stressed for two hours straight and, as I said before, that's not saying endurance workouts are bad for everyone. But if you're currently in a place where you're having active panic attacks multiple times a day and you're not sleeping and you're feeling these effects of stress going off, and then being like I'm going to run this stress away by running for two hours is not actually going to help you at all. So it's just knowing kind of what workout to prescribe to you based on what your stress levels are that day that week at that point in your life. So yeah, as a whole, all workouts are going to stress you out.

Molly McNamee: 17:06

Some Some workouts are going to stress you out more, and those are going to be the more highly intense workouts where you feel like something that I think is good to do is the talk test, where, while you're working out, if you feel like you can't say a sentence without stopping to take a breath, that workout is probably more on the high intensity scale. So for someone who's not checking your heart rate or really familiar with what high intensity is supposed to feel like, that's a good way to kind of gauge how intense is your workout. Can you speak in a sentence before taking a breath or are you gasping for air after every word? And if you're gasping for air, then that means it's a more highly intense workout, and that can be with cardio or strength training Again powerlifting I consider high intensity for a lot of people.

Philip Pape: 17:51

Okay, so you triggered me twice by saying that. So the powerlifting I do want to touch on that because, again anecdotally, I've seen what you've seen, where it's going to depend highly on the person and like in the context of everything they're doing. And I say that because, just to challenge it a little bit, there are cases where, for example, I had a client who she was stressed to the max, stressed to the gills, doing a lot. She was mountain climbing like a massage therapist Peloton and she was trying to lift and we just stripped everything away except the lifting and then her lifting became more intense but I think the net change was lower and I think that's important to understand. Like for her, four days a week for 90 minutes was a super low stress way to train for the week because she wasn't doing a lot of anything else.

Molly McNamee: 18:35

Yeah, it circles back to what I said before, where my solution for everyone is what is two steps forward or two steps back? So it's not okay. You're fully going to eliminate all of these things that I'm talking about from your workout routine or from your life. It's just dialing it back a touch. So that could even be like if, for instance, I worked with a client one time and she told me she started having panic attacks and they feel like they came out of nowhere. But this was when she started working out from home and she was doing 50, five zero minute hit workouts. She was doing long hit workouts and I was like you know what? You probably would have been okay if it was 20 minutes, but the fact that you were doing 50 is a big problem, but she was like in a bad place. So we needed to fully eliminate that high intensity from her routine.

Molly McNamee: 19:28

But that is just an example of just dialing it back a bit can be helpful. So it doesn't have to be oh, you're removing all of these things from your life. I have a friend also who is going through perimenopause, or hormones are kind of a mess, and her nervous system is reacting to all of that and she's also training for a marathon and I'm like, oh, what bad timing, because those long, long runs that you're going on are definitely not helping this. So then I'm just encouraging her to, a couple of days, change her training, not stop training for the marathon. So it can just be small changes.

Philip Pape: 20:05

Yeah, so that's, that's good. Let's segue then on the small changes, because you've mentioned sleep, you've mentioned recovery, you've mentioned um. I mean, we haven't even really talked about the life stress that we're all under. That causes a lot of this stress as well. I guess my question is obviously where would someone start? That's kind of the general thought here. But what's the big low-hanging fruit for most people when they do an inventory audit of their life, like just in general, for people listening, like, okay, let me start with the movement or start with the life stress or whatever. Later on I want to talk about unavoidable stress and what we can do about it. But like, here are the things we can control.

Molly McNamee: 20:41

Yeah. So I would always say, instead of thinking what can I remove from my life, think what can I add to my life. And so the easiest place for people to start, I would say, is not even exercise. It's not even what you're eating, it's just little little habits that you have in your day. Can you fix your posture regularly throughout your day? You could start there. Fixing your posture is going to help you breathe more deeply because your lungs are expanded. It's going to help you feel more confident and it's going to help your body feel I know we're all fixing.

Philip Pape: 21:11

I'm like I want to fix my posture right now. I stand, I'm standing, though.

Molly McNamee: 21:14

I'm like I want to fix my posture. Right now I'm standing, though, yeah. So it's small things like that. That is what I help people start with. It's not okay. Who can I break up with from my life to remove a large amount of stress? It's not that it's not okay. How can I overhaul my exercise routine? It's not that. It's what tiny things. Can you do? So with posture? One thing that I encourage my community to do is, anytime you get a notification on your phone, fix your posture.

Molly McNamee: 21:41

That's an easy place to start. Within your first hour of waking up in the morning, can you go outside and take some deep breaths. Start there Like little, little things are going to be the best place for you to start, instead of thinking what big thing can I change, what big thing can I remove? It's really. What small thing can I do to activate my parasympathetic nervous system, that part of your nervous system that's helping you relax and rest and digest? What can I do to activate that regularly, throughout the day, so that stress isn't consuming me? So it's not what to change, it's what to add really.

Philip Pape: 22:18

I love that and I didn't expect that answer, which I'm pleasantly surprised, only because in the nutrition world we talk about that as well. People are always trying to restrict and cut out right and we're like, no, just add in protein, add in fiber, add in some things you like and start crowding the other stuff out potentially. And, by the way, your cortisol guide you have, just so everybody listening. Molly didn't tell me to do this, but she shared it with me and we're going to talk about where to get that. It has some of these tips in there and I saw those ahead of time like, oh, that's interesting, Like little simple things that you don't often think about. So okay, Beyond that, there are some scenarios, I guess, that are of interest to people, and I've had some of my community reach out with questions ahead of time.

Philip Pape: 22:57

For someone who's managing their stress well, let's just say, like they have great sleep and they've balanced their nutrition and their training, but they're still not seeing progress. Like it could stress over the issue Are they missing something? Is there something they're overlooking?

Molly McNamee: 23:13

So, yeah, I used to think stress is just my interactions with people and the world and stuff that I can see. But there are a lot of things that can cause your body to feel stress that you can't even see and you may not even feel and again, I'm not saying that to scare people, but just like raise awareness to it. But things like the products you're using to clean your house or the air quality of the town you live in those types of things can start to stress out your body. You could have an infection that you don't know about, which is something that actually happened to me.

Molly McNamee: 23:48

There was a time where my anxiety and my stress was at an all-time high and I was examining my life and I was like, why is this happening? And then it turned out I had a yeast overgrowth in my gut that was just wreaking havoc on my nervous system. So if you feel like, why is my body not responding, it could be worth investigating like, okay, what potentially unseen things are happening. Not saying that's the right solution for everyone. I'm not saying if you're not losing weight or you're not building muscle, it means something is wrong with your body, but it could mean something is wrong with your body, and I also feel like we all are used to a certain level of stress in our life.

Molly McNamee: 24:29

Like we get used to things and we wake things off as being normal that aren't really normal. So that's where it can be really nice to like have an outside perspective, maybe speak to a friend, maybe speak to a coach or a therapist and just be like so this is what's going on and they may be able to tell you okay, that's actually not super normal. I have a client right now who like literally says oh yeah, things are totally fine. But he's also a single parent. He has three jobs and two are his own businesses and he's like this is all fine, nothing's strange. I'm like there's so much stress in your life that you are just used to this stress, now Normalized it yeah.

Molly McNamee: 25:07

Normalized it. So I would also, I guess, challenge those people who are saying I'm dealing with everything perfectly, but my body's not changing, to potentially examine is that the case? And then also, are there unseen things that could be stressing out your body? Something I think is really helpful for everyone to do, at least for a week or two, is to keep a little vibe check journal in your phone or keep it by your bed and just keep note of how you're feeling each day. Keep track of how are you sleeping? Are you bloated? Do you have a headache? Do you feel anxious? Is your heart racing at all randomly? Just keep track of those things and you may start to see if there are some things actually happening that you weren't aware of.

Philip Pape: 25:54

Yeah, no, you mentioned some great things, the first being that there are lots of things in our environment that could affect us and we don't need to like fear monger it per se, but it's good to be aware. I knew a guy who worked in an office environment and something wasn't right, and there was. He was allergic to some form of mold or something that didn't affect most people you know, and he went and worked from home and all of a sudden it cleared away. So, yeah, I like the Vibe Check Journal. I mean, I talk about biofeedback all the time and it sounds like there are some nice granular levels of stress measures that you can track and maybe, if there's time, we can get into that. But I like that idea Kind of maybe a little bit related to this or not is how often is the case where somebody is just trying to diet too much and that's the cause of their stress?

Molly McNamee: 26:37

That's very often, if not the most common.

Molly McNamee: 26:40

It's potentially the most common.

Molly McNamee: 26:42

I mean, when people are actively trying to lose weight, like the first thing they think is, oh, I should exercise more or I should eat less, like those are the two things people instantly jump to.

Molly McNamee: 26:53

And you can do that again to a degree. You probably do need to maybe eat a little less or move a little bit more, but people often take it to the extreme. So if you have been dieting for a long time, that is a stress in your body Absolutely, and that's like, if it's prolonged and if it's been extreme, that's going to start to upset your body. And also, just like from a metabolism standpoint, when you are stressing out your body with that diet, like I said, your body's going to start to burn fewer calories through existing because it's thinking we're in survival mode. Now You're telling us we're stressed, you're telling us we can't eat, so we're going to keep you safe, don't worry. And you're just not going to burn calories anymore, or you're not going to not burn calories, but you're not going to burn as many calories through existing and then that can make it extremely hard to then actually be in a calorie deficit.

Molly McNamee: 27:46

If you think you are, you may not even be in one, which is annoying. So I would say abusing or over dieting is a huge cause for stress for a lot of people, but also just food in general is a stressor and a trigger for a lot of people, especially like I mean, people who are actively trying to lose weight have probably had some times where they're a bit upset with food and they're a bit upset how they're eating. So just having that kind of negative relationship with food itself can be a stressor. So then it could be anytime you think what am I going to eat for dinner? That could be stressing out your body just itself. Even the fact of like just thinking about food Dieting itself is a stressor, but thinking about food can be a stressor for a lot of people.

Philip Pape: 28:31

Yeah, it makes sense. I mean there are so many causes of overconsumption, related to stress and also appetite regulation and hormones, that they're all tied together. I'm curious. Just recently I learned how there was some study on the thyroid that showed a roughly average 6% reduction in thyroid production during a 500 calorie deficit, right? So like roughly on average, somebody who goes into a diet, their hormones downregulate we know that's part of metabolic adaptation and then it comes back. So it's not like you're damaging it, right From a stress perspective. And maybe it's cortisol specifically. Do we have any sort of numbers or like measures of what happens to cortisol where it's normal but it's going to happen when we diet and then it kind of comes back, do we?

Carol: 29:21

do you have any details like?

Molly McNamee: 29:21

that.

Philip Pape: 29:22

Number-wise. No, I can't spit out numbers for you.

Molly McNamee: 29:22

They would all be a lie and things that I am making up off the top of my head, off of assumptions, but absolutely it's kind of, as we talked about before, where stress in small doses is not a bad thing.

Molly McNamee: 29:29

So if you are the rare person who has never dieted before and you don't have a negative relationship with food and you go on a diet, that can be initially helpful and that initial stressor, as it said, it's not going to be a prolonged effect. Where I find this is a problem most is people who are repeatedly dieting over and over and where they bounce back and forth between dieting and not dieting and they're just kind of flip-flopping through those two extremes over and over, and where they bounce back and forth between dieting and not dieting and they're just kind of flip-flopping through those two extremes. That's where dieting affects cortisol in your nervous system the most. But if you're just occasionally going on a diet, if it's not something you're repeatedly going back and forth with, if it's not something you're over-abusing, then it's not bad. 're over abusing, then it's not a it's not bad, uh and it's. You are going to see those initial effects of maybe your hormones get a little out of whack, but then they do normalize, yeah.

Carol: 30:25

Yeah, no, that's a great point.

Molly McNamee: 30:26

The feed offenders and the the over I was going to say over under eating, which is such a silly thing to say Extreme extreme dieters.

Philip Pape: 30:35

Yeah, extreme dieters A big calorie deficit way beyond what it should be. Yeah.

Molly McNamee: 30:39

Exactly, yeah, that's uh. That is always going to be negatively impacting your body, especially if you do that for a long time like a week, I mean maybe whatever, Uh, but if you're doing that for a while, that's yeah, definitely.

Philip Pape: 30:57

I mean, folks need to hear that. That it's. There are different variables, right, there's how fast you go, there's how long you go, and then how many times you do it and how everything else is set up for that.

Molly McNamee: 31:05

And that's exactly why it's anytime I have conversations with people I say I wish it was black and white, like I wish I could be that coach who presents things as like a black and white thing because it's much easier to sell. But for most people it's not. It's like when I first start working with someone, there's a whole conversation of what is your life looked like up until now, because that influences then what your body is willing and able to do in this exact moment.

Philip Pape: 31:33

For sure. There was a recent study that looked at fat cells and again showed how our history of dieting affects the fat cells kind of resilience and ability to store fat faster and more easily. Right, not necessarily that we produce more. I know that used to be a prevailing thought. I think that's much more rare. We've seen in the evidence that we create more fat cells. But it's epigenetics at its finest. So that's cool. Now what about the opposite end, where we have people who have lots of life stress, like shift workers? I just had someone before this. I said hey, molly's coming on, do you guys have questions? And he's like yeah, I've got 16 hour shifts in a truck and like sleep cycles all over and they can't change it. Like we're talking caregivers. And like sleep cycles all over and they can't change it. Like we're talking caregivers, you know, moms and just nurses. Like there's so many people that have that stress. What's the most realistic? Like no excuse, advice that you'd give them to help make progress anyway, if that makes sense, yeah.

Molly McNamee: 32:30

So, depending on what the extreme is like, if you are working 16 hours and that type of thing, first advice would be you need a routine that you stick to, like you need to stick to it as regularly as possible, and then those people I would especially say those smaller things are going to be really powerful for you.

Molly McNamee: 32:53

So if you are working 16 hour shifts and it is like a highly stressful 16 hours, again, anytime you hear a phone ring can you fix your posture or take a deep breath, like what small things can you incorporate into your kind of hectic day so that you are keeping that stress balanced in your body and it's not getting out of hand?

Molly McNamee: 33:15

But the biggest thing is you need to have a set routine of like okay, this is what I'm going to go to sleep, this is when I'm going to wake up, this is like how I'm going to wake up, this is my morning routine, this is my nighttime routine. Having those routines in place is going to be incredibly helpful because I find for a lot of people because I've definitely worked with some people before that have hectic three-month periods and they're like okay, this three-month chunk in my life is absolutely chaotic and it is every year, but I just suffer through it. You need a routine instead of just suffering through something. So if you're waiting for your next vacation, if you're waiting for your next break to get back on track, set the routine. Make it work with the chaos.

Philip Pape: 34:00

I love it, and is the reason for that the simply having the consistency, and or is it because our bodies respond better to predictability?

Molly McNamee: 34:10

Both a bit. I mean, our bodies feel safer with that predictability and a lot of times where stress becomes a problem is your body does not feel safe anymore. It's just always kind of on edge. So our bodies feel safer with that predictability. Also, having that routine is going to help you sleep better. It's going to help you digest food better. It's just going to help your body function a little bit better.

Molly McNamee: 34:34

Because, especially with like a nighttime routine and stuff like that, I always compare it to toddlers how toddlers have to have like a set list of things that they do or they won't sleep and their nap time and everything Like if we have a routine, our body is going to respond to that routine more effectively versus if we're just like trying to survive and get through it.

Molly McNamee: 35:02

That makes it difficult and I know like I have lots of clients who are parents and they're like, yeah, well, I can have a routine and like it's the best of my intentions to stick with that routine, but then a kid can throw me off of that routine to stick with that routine, but then a kid can throw me off of that routine.

Molly McNamee: 35:18

Allowing your routine to not be so hard and rigid is also an important thing where it's like, okay, well, I have to wake up and I have to do this 10 minute meditation or my life is ruined, like there needs to be some flexibility. There needs to be routine, but there needs to be flexibility within the routine. I hope that makes sense. I even encourage people to kind of have a plan A and a plan B even with their exercise routine, where it's have the thing you want to do and then have a plan B in place, so that it's not the end of the world if you can't do that initial plan A. So maybe having a couple of options for your routine is also a good idea.

Philip Pape: 35:57

Yeah, the kind of not rigid flexibility, but flexibility with guardrails or guidelines, whatever you want to call it, is super empowering, because I know the sleep side of it. People often have random sleep times, even though their wake times are consistent. That's a problem, right? Everybody knows about an alarm in the morning, but nobody sets an alarm at night, right? It's pretty common. So, thinking about those things, you called us all toddlers, which I appreciate, because I have two kids, 10 and 12, two daughters and part of my personal journey of wanting to be fit, as I'm 44 now, is to play with them and to be a kid with them. So let's talk about play for a little bit. I wasn't even going to bring this up but, like, I think that's a huge part of it, whether it's play or hobbies or just really fun diversionary things and where that fits into stress management. What are your thoughts?

Molly McNamee: 36:48

Oh, it is so helpful. I mean even just like if you were to Google, actually I'm not sure if this would be the first thing that you could Google, but if you were to ask what's one of the easiest ways to activate my parasympathetic nervous system, smiling, laughing, like those things are super helpful for helping your body feel safe. So doing things in your life that allow you to smile and laugh and enjoy and feel relaxed are so important, and I also say the same for your workout routine as well are so important, and I also say the same for your workout routine as well. Like if you're having fun with your movements, that's even more beneficial, versus if it just feels like you know 40 minutes of torture, then that's less enjoyable to your body. But yeah, and I find as adults it can be tough to make time for those hobbies and make time for that quote unquote fun, but it is super important too.

Molly McNamee: 37:38

So something I do in my own life is and I know maybe this sounds a bit crazy to people listening, but I write a schedule for everything. So I have a to-do list that includes my work to do, my personal chores and also my fun. I put my fun on on my to-do list and I'm a big advocate for putting yourself on your to-do list instead of just being like, okay, I got to do all of this stuff and if I have time for me I'll get to me. But add yourself and add your fun and add your self-care to your to-do list. Literally, if you need to set aside time for it, like have an alarm go off at like two seven and just know you have five minutes to do something fun at that time. Like literally plug yourself into your to do list, whether it be fun and play, whether it be a hobby, whether it be taking a bath, like it could be, whatever you want it to be. But plugging yourself into your schedule is super important and whether it be play or relaxation, it's important.

Philip Pape: 38:35

That's a good one, Cause we talk about prioritizing all the things we have to do and that are important to us, and it's all serious Like that's, but why not put in the fun time? Uh, even just nothing. Time like just put in time where you're like this is reserved to do whatever I want and we'll see what happens.

Molly McNamee: 38:51

And I know for a lot of people that could be like oh, that's so impossible, like I need to be showing up for all of these things. But I think it's important to remember that if you're not feeling your best, you can't show up 100% for all of those things. Like it's going to take you longer to read an email. If, like, you're experiencing like some brain fog, if you're kind of sleepy, like if you take even just five minutes out for yourself, you may find you get your tasks done faster and more effectively because you gave some of that time back to you and you're feeling more energized because of it.

Carol: 39:25

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 40:05

Now, for those of you listening to this, I don't know if you can hear our smiles and Molly's like bright face, but if you want to watch the video, you should watch it because I think, like the smile, you're right. The smiling is like so important and so kind of um. Related to that is positivity in general. Well, I mean, one thing that I encounter all the time with people frustrated and struggling is negative self-talk and negative framing on things, and I was again, wasn't even going to ask about this, and I'm thinking just again us smiling with each other here and making it a positive thing. How can people use one of those techniques reframing or some behavioral technique that you use with clients to help with their stress, to help reframe the situation?

Molly McNamee: 40:44

Well, one of my favorite things to do currently actually and I started incorporating this into my life over the last month and I have found it to be weirdly, really, really helpful is I talk to myself using my name. So I'm like Molly, you're doing great today. Like I literally say my name out loud, and that because you can hear that like oh yeah, positive self talk, like be kind to yourself, that kind of thing and I would always try that and not really feel any different. But actually saying my name and feeling like I'm talking to myself has been incredibly helpful for me for reducing some of my anxiety. Like I have my things that I get stressed about, where it's like, oh, if I am hopping on a call to be interviewed for this podcast, before I like take a deep breath and I'm like, molly, you got this and it can just be as simple as that.

Molly McNamee: 41:35

But that positive self-talk is super powerful and it is on the opposite end, like how you talk to yourself in general is very powerful. So if you're also talking down on yourself, your body's going to start to feel that. It's really going to start to feel that. So, if you're like, why are you doing this? If you're like constantly like criticizing your body and constantly being like why are you doing this? To me your body's going to be like a scared kid, like again we're talking about toddlers Like if you say something mean to a toddler, it's going to they're going to feel kind of bad and your body's kind of the same. I didn't mean to call us toddlers so many times today but we kind of are.

Philip Pape: 42:13

I don't mind at all, and you weren't nervous before coming on right.

Molly McNamee: 42:16

That was just an example, just an example, just an example, but it is interesting, as you do your self-talk. Talking to yourself, using your name can be super helpful. And then also the tone that you're using with your self-talk is also very powerful, like if I'm feeling anxious for something and I'm like pull it together. Molly, you got this. If I just said that a little kinder, my body would have taken it as more of a kind thing instead of a mean thing. So your tone and the words you're using as you talk to yourself and I know maybe I'm strange, maybe I'm the only one who speaks to myself, but you should try it if you have it.

Philip Pape: 42:55

No, you're not the only one. Yeah, but using the name specifically is a really nice twist on it, because we all might. I'm assuming most people talk to themselves. I always joke, as long as you don't argue with yourself, but using your own name is a nice trigger because we respond so emotionally to our name. So I love that. And who else is there to do it for you? I mean, occasionally you have, obviously, people you're interacting with, but you're by yourself, majority of your existence, if you think about it. Yeah, I was just working out this morning and a guy, a friend of mine, would send me these reels of this guy yelling lightweight, lightweight, like when it's super heavyweight to make it feel lighter. So I started doing that and like what if I throw my name in there? Now, philip, you got this.

Molly McNamee: 43:33

This is super light, go for it Right, Like how's that going to affect that Exactly? It is strange, but it is effective and I would love to hear if it helps for you Exactly.

Philip Pape: 43:43

All right, cool, yeah, cause I am a fan of positive psychology, which is a whole separate field. If you haven't gotten into it, molly, look it up. It's like uh, it sounds the same as psychology, but just putting the word positive in front of it, it's a whole separate field of where and I'm not trying to like mansplain, it's just something I'm excited about. Sorry, molly, is that? Um, like, psychology looks at what's wrong with our brain and positive psychology looks like what looks at what we can do positively in our life, and they're not considered opposites. It's like they're two independent things, just like you talked about adding in things to your life. It's not that we're trying to have opposites and cancel things out, right, we're trying to add things to our life.

Molly McNamee: 44:19

So oh, that sounds cool. I'm going to look that up as soon as we're done here, because I'm so fascinated.

Philip Pape: 44:26

It's only like a 30 year old field. I think it started in the 90s. It's pretty recent, only like a 30-year-old field. I think it started in the 90s. It was pretty recent, amazing. Okay. So I think we're starting to wrap up here. As far as strategies, I don't know if people are like hey, molly, there's so many things that you still haven't covered with. What can I do? Is there any one or two big things that stick out that you love to share with people that I haven't specifically asked you about?

Molly McNamee: 44:50

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm all about starting small. So if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, that's so small and insignificant, like the small and insignificant things are actually really, really powerful for your nervous system specifically. So one of the things I just recommend everyone do and this may sound a little silly but just pause between activities. In your day.

Molly McNamee: 45:11

We're all often kind of running from one thing to the next, even with our workout. So I'll say this as an example I know a lot of people rush their cool down so that they can hop in their car and get back to their life. But can you take an extra couple of minutes to just lie down on your back and breathe after you finish your workout? Can you literally pause and just breathe and relax for even 30 seconds would be helpful if you're not doing anything like that right now. But so many of us are going from one thing that's stressing out our body right into the next thing right into the next thing. So another example if you're driving and you're rushing and you're in rush hour traffic and you're feeling kind of stressed in your car, you park your car, can you just sit for 30 seconds? Literally just pausing between activities can be a really good way to tell your body it's, it's cool, we're, we're safe. Now you can relax, um.

Philip Pape: 46:01

So I think that's another really easy thing that people could start doing and applying into their life yeah, I can see how powerful that would be, because I'm reflecting on my own most of my days, where it's like one thing to the next, to the next, even when you don't have it. I say even when you don't have it scheduled. I mean, if you're listening to this, think about it, think about your own life every day, even when you have time. How often do we just keep filling in that time and go, go, go yeah.

Philip Pape: 46:26

Right, it's like the next thing, next thing go do the chore over here. Oh, now I have five minutes to do this, Let me go do this. It's just constant.

Molly McNamee: 46:32

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 46:32

And you're saying take a break, yeah.

Molly McNamee: 46:34

Eating is a good place to do this as well. A lot of people will just like have the meal in front of them and start digging in. But if you could stop and take like two deep breaths before you start eating your meal, that's going to help your digestive system feel calmer so it can work better as you eat that food. And it may again sound small and significant, but if your body's feeling calmer while you're eating and you are maybe following a certain diet where you've maybe increased your protein or you've increased something because you have these physical goals, feeling calmer while you eat is going to help you absorb that food and those nutrients better so that you can get the results that you're looking for. So those small pauses again they seem small, they seem silly, but especially like right before mealtime, it can really make or break how effective that meal is for you.

Philip Pape: 47:23

All of these little stress snacks or stress management snacks or whatever are really great, because the typical advice is like start a meditation practice or do yoga, right, and it's like these big things that you're like, no, I'm not going to do that. No, that sounds like where you've come from to get to this point. So things that actually work for people.

Molly McNamee: 47:40

Exactly. I mean, I am someone who is an overachiever, so it is kind of funny for me to like always be advocating for the small things. But I know, like meditation, you said, for example yeah, when you look up how to relieve stress, it's often oh, journal for 30 minutes, meditate for 30 minutes, and I'm just like can you talk to yourself out loud for 15 seconds? And that's your journaling. Can you just close your eyes for 30 seconds and that's your meditation. Like, can it be simpler? So, with everything, if you're trying to incorporate a new habit into your life and you're having a tough time sticking with that habit, I would always ask yourself how can I make this simpler? Because as you try to incorporate new things into your life, it should not feel impossible or that's going to start to stress out your body. So make it simpler for yourself and then just build on that.

Philip Pape: 48:31

It's a great message and I appreciate your perspective on all this, as well as your positivity and your smile and helping me de-stress through this conversation, because I always love talking to great people, so where do you want listeners to find you, Molly? And also I know we're going to throw a guide in there for folks, so feel free to talk about that.

Molly McNamee: 48:48

Yeah, I mean, I know the topic of stress and hormones and all of that is like taboo and kind of dramatic. But, yeah, if you have been listening to this and you've been relating and you're thinking, ok, stress is relevant in my life, what do I do about this, then I have written an e-book that I would love to give your listeners for free, and it's all about mastering your stress hormone, cortisol, and it's filled with a lot of practical and personalized tips that'll just help you figure out really what cortisol is first of all and why it matters. How to identify if your body is producing too much cortisol. There's a really big symptom checklist in there that may be helpful for some of you, and then it also gives even more of these really simplified tips and lifestyle changes and habits that you can start to incorporate into your life to keep your stress hormones happy. So if anyone wants that, it is on my website, which is just my name, mollymcnameecom forward slash cortisol.

Molly McNamee: 49:42

But I'm also all over the social medias. If anyone wants to connect with me, I'm on Instagram under my business name, which is mfitworkouts, and I post stuff on there all the time that's more just like simplified tips, like I've been talking about today, but also if you just need someone as a part of your support system, feel free to message me, and I'm always just down to chat. So if you're feeling kind of lonely I know how lonely it can be when you're trying to lose weight or you're going through some mental health struggles so just reach out. You don't have to be alone.

Philip Pape: 50:13

There you go, if you appreciated Molly's effervescent attitude or appearance today and all her great stuff and, by the way, I did take a look at the guide. I always ask for guests ahead of time to share it with me and I think it's awesome Totally subscribe to everything she's saying. So definitely go check it out. Follow her on IG, reach out seriously. Send her a message, please do. I know I asked for people to reach out to me and few people do it because I know you're afraid or maybe not sure if they're going to respond. Molly's going to respond. Reach out to her and then we're going to do an IG live in January, right? So follow her page just for that Page feed. You know what I meant profile.

Molly McNamee: 50:55

All right, so, molly, thank you so much for coming on. We're going to put those in the show notes. And it's been a blast. Yes, thank you so much. This has been really fun.

25 New Year's Ideas to Lose Fat, Gain Muscle, and Boost Your Metabolism (Lateral Thinking) | Ep 264

Join our FREE Wits & Weights Facebook group to get a downloadable PDF guide of the 25 creative strategies in this episode... and connect with like-minded people who use evidence-based principles to optimize their fitness!

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Are your New Year's resolutions already feeling stale? If you're tired of the same old fitness advice that ignores your lifestyle and preferences, it's time for a different approach.

Learn how Lateral Thinking, a powerful engineering concept, can give you infinite practical ways to lose fat, build muscle, and boost your metabolism without relying on willpower or motivation.

I'm giving you 25 creative strategies that adapt to your life, not the other way around. Whether you struggle with meal prep, workout consistency, or hitting your protein goals, these creative solutions will transform how you approach fitness in 2025.

Main Takeaways:

• How to make healthy choices the path of least resistance using environmental design

• Creative ways to gamify your nutrition and training for better adherence

• Practical systems that work with your lifestyle, not against it

• Why asking "wild questions" leads to better solutions than forcing conventional approaches

📝 Get the free PDF with these 25 ideas by joining our Facebook Group!

Creative Strategies for Fat Loss, Muscle Gain, and Metabolism Boosting in the New Year

New Year’s resolutions often fail because they focus on rigid, cookie-cutter approaches. But what if you could challenge assumptions and craft solutions tailored to your life? Welcome to a smarter, more sustainable way to approach your health and fitness goals using lateral thinking. This method, borrowed from engineering, challenges conventional wisdom and inspires out-of-the-box ideas to tackle the obstacles holding you back.

Below, we’ll explore 25 game-changing strategies to lose fat, build muscle, and enhance your metabolism. These ideas aren’t about doing more—they’re about doing things differently.

Why Conventional Thinking Fails

Most fitness advice takes a linear approach: eat less, exercise more, and stick to the plan. While these are technically correct, they ignore critical factors like your unique schedule, preferences, and rhythms. Lateral thinking turns these issues on their head by asking better questions:

• How can I make nutritious food the easiest choice?

• Can my workouts feel more like play than a chore?

• What if late-night snacking could support my goals?

This shift in perspective makes resolutions stick by addressing your challenges creatively and personally.

So…What are the 25 Creative Ideas?

Just join the Wits & Weights Facebook group to get them totally free or listen/watch the episode.

📝 Get the free PDF with these 25 ideas by joining our Facebook Group!

Start Small and Stay Consistent

You don’t need to overhaul your entire life on January 1st. Instead, pick one or two ideas that resonate and test them out. Adjust, refine, and expand as needed.

Remember, the best solutions come not from working harder but thinking smarter. When you align your health goals with strategies that fit your life, success becomes inevitable.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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📞 Send a Q&A voicemail

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's be honest, most New Year's resolutions fail because people try the same approaches that didn't work last year. They restrict foods they love, force themselves through boring workouts and wonder why nothing sticks past January. But what if we took an engineer's approach and asked wild questions instead? What if meal prep could be fun? What if snacks could become a secret weapon? Today, I'm using lateral thinking, a powerful problem-solving tool from engineering, to give you 25 practical ways to lose fat, build muscle and boost your metabolism. These aren't just theory. They are battle-tested strategies that adapt to your life, not the other way around round.

Philip Pape: 0:50

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pate. Engineers solve complex problems by looking at them from unexpected angles. Whether designing a bridge or optimizing a production line, we often find the best solutions by asking strange questions. Today, we're applying this concept of lateral thinking to your fitness, your training, your nutrition, to give you creative strategies that actually work. And before we get into it, if you want to connect with others who use these approaches to fitness, join our Wits and Weights Facebook group. It's totally free. Just search for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes. It is a vibrant community of like-minded people who share ideas and support each other, and it is entirely positive and encouraging. So I encourage you to join our Wits and Weights Facebook group.

Philip Pape: 1:45

All right, let's start by breaking down what lateral thinking is and how you can use it to solve your challenges when it comes to your health and fitness journey. Most people approach fitness with vertical thinking, straight line logic that says to lose weight, eat less or to get stronger, lift heavier. And while these are I'll call technically true, they are not only out of context, but they often lead to frustration simply because they're too simplistic. Lateral thinking is about challenging your assumptions and asking unexpected questions. So here's how that might work. Instead of asking how could I eat less, you might ask how could I make nutritious food the default choice in my kitchen? What if meal prep was a social activity? How could I make vegetables the most convenient snack for me? Or, instead of just thinking that I need to work out more, try how could my commute include movement? What if my training felt like playing a game? And could my kids' activities become part of my workout? These are just interesting little questions, many of which you can come up with a thousand times over that might apply to your situation.

Philip Pape: 2:57

The key is to break free from conventional solutions. So, when you hit a roadblock, ask yourself what assumptions am I making? What if the opposite were true? How would someone from a completely different field solve this? And what aspects haven't I considered?

Philip Pape: 3:14

For example, one of my clients struggled with late night snacking recently or often. It's a very common thing, right? And instead of just saying all right, stop eating after 8 pm, because a lot of people go to the first solution of I need to stop doing this thing. That's the vertical thinking solution. We instead use lateral thinking. We ask well, what if late night snacking could help your goals? Hmm, this then led to preparing a protein-rich snack I think in this case it was Greek yogurt with berries in advance, pre-logging it and actually incorporating it into the meal plan. Amazing, right Now. The problem wasn't the timing, it was the food choices, the portions, things like that.

Philip Pape: 3:53

Now the issue is standard advice and there is a lot of conventional wisdom. Isn't always that it's wrong Oftentimes it is, I will admit, but sometimes it's simply that it assumes everyone can succeed the same way. That is the big assumption in the fitness industry that everyone can follow an intermittent fasting. Everyone can do this one thing and it's going to work for them, and that's this classic square peg into a round hole situation where it's not personalized. And this becomes especially clear in January when the gyms fill up with people following the exact same plan, or they follow a plan that ignores their natural eating patterns, their schedule constraints, their food preferences, their energy and their rhythms, their circadian rhythms, their social lives. It just ignores all of that stuff, and it's no wonder that most resolutions fail by February.

Philip Pape: 4:41

So now I'm gonna give you the 25 ideas. Now, I know this is a lot. This can be overwhelming. I don't know how long this episode is going to take, but we will. Um, I I will include the entire list and the details in our Facebook group. They're not going to be in the timestamps because the show notes would get too long. They're going to be available, posted in the group, totally free. All you have to do is click the link in the show notes join our Facebook group and you'll get the printed out guide version of this. I think I'm going to make a PDF as well, just to make it super easy to get to Join our group and you'll get that, and then you can follow on in this podcast to hear them all.

Philip Pape: 5:18

So number one number one is always eat protein first within your meal, before you touch your carbs or fats. This might seem simple in terms of prioritizing protein and I talk a lot about making sure every meal includes protein but we're talking about a simple hack of just eating the protein first always. You might have heard in the past, like eat your vegetables first, they'll fill you up. I recommend eating your protein first. It will fill you up and meet your protein and this research shows it can reduce calorie intake and maintain your satiety. And then you can track how this affects your fullness levels and adjust your portions accordingly. But always start by eating the protein.

Philip Pape: 6:00

Of personal records for you in the gym, besides just the weight, in other words, many of us track what's our max squat or what's our max five rep, our five rep max squat. I want you to come up with something else that you can track that makes it gamified. For example, how many reps you got with perfect form, right, like so if you're doing a set of five and you know two of those weren't great, you only give yourself a three out of five, and next time you're going for a five. So come up with a way to gamify your workouts beyond just the weight lifted, and that'll give you more frequent wins and also ensure that you work on something like your technical mastery. Number three is using a scale to rate your fullness levels at each meal. You can use a scale of one to 10, and usually I tell people to track things like biofeedback, right, their hunger, their digestion, their stress and so on, but actually track your fullness level not your hunger, but your fullness level when you eat, and then you can correlate those scores with what you ate and when you ate it, and then, after about 30 days, you can see which combinations keep you the most satisfied. Isn't that cool? So that's a way to see what actually fills you up.

Philip Pape: 7:09

Number four this is about strategically setting up your kitchen environment, but I'm going to give you specifics. I want you to reorganize your kitchen based on nutritional hierarchy, the things that you think are most important. So protein sources and vegetables. Put them at eye level. Make your measuring tools easily accessible, including your food scale. Put calorie-dense foods in a place where it requires extra steps to reach them, including putting them in a box, within a bag, within a cupboard, for example, and this is applying behavioral science to your nutrition, in controlling your environment.

Philip Pape: 7:44

The fifth idea I came up with is to film one set of a compound exercise every week that you are working on. You could do them all, but just to keep it simple, film one set let's say it's your deadlift and then you, on your own, compare it to a good form video, like the ones from Barbell Logic, for example. I have some in my own coaching practice and our Physique University, but film yourself, compare it to the form video and make one specific technique correction each week until you get to mastering the movement. This is just a way to, on your own, get your own self-form check by comparing it to videos. All right.

Philip Pape: 8:25

Number six I want you to track unique protein sources you consume each week. What do I mean? Well, research shows that varied nutrient profiles support better body composition, and I know after talking with, for example, dr Sarah Ballantyne, having more variety of nutritious foods in your diet are only beneficial, and I'm talking about protein specifically. So what I want you to do is, within a given week, I want you to not only log your food but look at how many different unique protein sources you consume. Now here's a cool hack for this If you use Macrofactor, export Macrofactor go to the data export where it creates a spreadsheet, and in that spreadsheet is a tab that shows all your foods as a flat list, and from that you might be able to see how many different protein sources you consume. But just pick a specific week and just list them out and try to get at least 10, at least 10 different sources of protein. So if you're always eating chicken breast, that's perhaps not enough variety and you might want to incorporate some other sources of protein.

Philip Pape: 9:27

Idea number seven creative lateral thinking. Idea number seven is what I call a recovery points system. I want you to assign points to different recovery methods that are important to you. For example, sleep quality could be a recovery method, your rest periods between your sets could be a recovery method, your rest periods between your sets could be a recovery method, the days between your workouts and just come up with a score system that has points and quantifies your recovery based on what you want. So what you can do is you can list the things out that you think are important for your recovery, give them points and say I want to get at least this many points this week and that way you can see are you objectively actually getting the recovery you want, as opposed to just going by how you feel.

Philip Pape: 10:11

Now my next idea hopefully it's not too confusing, but here's what I thought, here's what I came up with Create a fundamental take, a fundamental movement or lift that you're trying to work on. Okay, and again I'm going back to squat, because everybody has trouble with their squat and I want you to create a difficulty ladder. So, for example, I want you to identify three things about your squat that you want to nail and that could be getting below parallel. That could be avoiding too much knee slide and it could be keeping your back tight, for example. Those are just three. Just pick three things, specific objective things and it could be keeping your back tight, for example. Those are just three. Just pick three things, specific objective things, and then every time you do a rep, just note did you get each of those things? Now you could simplify and just do two or just do one, and the idea here is to see how often you get all of the cues that you're trying to get throughout your set and only advance once you've demonstrated perfect technique in a session. So I hope that makes sense. Basically, you're identifying the specific cues you want to make sure you get. Make sure you get them for all reps and sets in a session. Then you can advance, and by advance I mean go up and load, for example. All right, so hopefully that wasn't too confusing. That's what I was thinking of on that.

Philip Pape: 11:24

Number nine is Creating your own meal matrix, your own mix and match. So I have a guide that I give to a lot of folks and if you want it, just shoot me a message and it gives you example meal plans. But it also gives you list of foods by macro and then you can mix and match. But I want you to do this for yourself, based on what you like and based on what you eat a lot. So a customized grid, let's say, of protein, carbs, fats. You could even have a separate category for fruits and vegetables, whatever categories you want. Heck, I mean, if you're struggling to get your fruits, make a fruit category and then create mix and match of those to give you your meal plan. I mean, it's as simple as that.

Philip Pape: 12:08

But a lot of people don't even go to that step. They jump right to trying to create their own plan for what to eat. And then they get confused and overwhelmed with so many foods out there. Limit it to the foods that you know and love, that you're going to shop for. Create your own matrix, all right.

Philip Pape: 12:18

The next one is pretty cool. This is number 10. You know how different foods of different calorie density will have much more or much fewer calories for the volume. So, for example, a tablespoon of peanut butter is going to have way more calories than a tablespoon of popcorn. So I want you to create your own reference of calorie equivalent portions. So take some different foods that you like to eat and, in macro factor, whatever food logger you're using, just log the same calories and see how much volume you get for those calories. In other words, see how much you're able to eat for those calories. And the idea is then you can compare what's more calorie dense versus what's more high volume nutrient dense and then you can decide. Okay, here are the swaps that I can make to focus more on usually protein and high fiber and high satiety things, but sometimes you might be surprised. For example, people are often surprised that potatoes are like the highest satiety food in terms of volume and calories. So create your own personal reference of calorie equivalent foods. All right, I'm going to continue here. I've got 15 more. This is a long list and again, I only want you to pick one or two that really stand out to you and you can review this and you can go to our Facebook group and I'll give you the entire guide for free.

Philip Pape: 13:38

Number 11, I want you to take your current training program and for maybe not every movement, but for some movements where there might be sometimes an equipment availability issue at the gym or maybe it gives you a lot of fatigue and sometimes you want to swap it out For whatever reason, I want you to identify a swap exercise, a swap, a different lift that can swap in for any given lift in your program where you might have to do that, so that you have a backup plan so that you don't make an excuse, so that you can still do the movement pattern but allow yourself to adapt to equipment availability and other factors that may cause you to need to switch it out Again, like low back fatigue or something like that. All right, just have something, so you have no excuses. Number 12, this is kind of fun. This is really about cooking methods. I want you to prep your protein sources. Number 12, this is kind of fun. This is really about cooking methods. I want you to prep your protein sources using different cooking methods than you're used to. So if you always cook the same way, I want you to find a couple other ways, whether it's grilled, baked, sous vide, boiled, stewed, whatever. Find a couple cooking methods and I want you to prepare your protein sources differently and then see how it affects your satisfaction, the experience. You might just find that there is a new way that you're going to want to eat certain proteins by doing this. Just experiment with different cooking methods, but just pick one thing that is a protein heavy recipe.

Philip Pape: 15:10

Number 13 is a shopping cart strategy for the grocery store. So check this one out. Try this one out. I want you to divide your shopping cart into three sections. Now you can do this by maybe using your own bags and just have the bags ready to go. Some grocery stores allow you to pre-check as you go along. Whatever allows you to do this, maybe visually One section's for protein, one's for produce, right fruits and vegetables and one's for everything else, and they're evenly divided. I want you to fill the protein first and the produce first before you do the third section. That's it. I don't even want you to shop anywhere other than the protein and the produce and fill those up all the way to those full third and third before we do the third section, just to see what that does for your mindset on prioritizing those types of foods.

Philip Pape: 15:59

Number 14 is about tracking. I want you to track a non-scale measure and I talk about this a lot on the show right Progress photos, performance metrics, energy, hunger, digestion, sleep but I want you to just double down right now on one thing that you think is low-hanging fruit, that you have not been tracking, that is affecting you. For a lot of people this might be, for example, sleep quality and say I am going to track several measures of sleep quality starting today. Now you could use it if you have like an aura ring or a sleep tracker, for example. Or you can just keep it very simple and say when I wake up in the morning, I'm just gonna give myself a one to 10 rating on my sleep quality and I am going to track that to understand my patterns. What am I doing that affects sleep? What can I change, how can I update my sleep routine, and so on. That's just one example. You can pick any non-scale measure you want, whatsoever that you're maybe neglecting, and I want you to double down on it right now and create a little portfolio of that one thing that you want to track and decide other measures that might relate to it. If that helps, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:03

The next idea I had is about meal prep efficiency, because a lot of you will prep on the weekends and I hear complaints sometimes that meal prep takes too long, which is insane. It shouldn't be the case. It should be that meal prep saves you time during the week, but some of you may be doing it inefficiently. So I would take your meal prep, which should be pretty systematic. You want to focus on batch cooking right? Batch cooking some proteins, vegetables, maybe starches, and time yourself and see if you can't get it under an hour. And if you're already under an hour, see if you can't get it to half an hour and really set yourself a stretch goal. Not I don't want you rushing through the kitchen and like potentially injuring yourself, but think of meal prep efficiency as its own process related goal in and of itself. Now, if you enjoy meal prep itself as a stress relieving activity and you want it to take time, ignore this one. But if you think you don't have enough time and you want this to be more efficient, then you've got to track the efficiency and see what you can change and look for ideas to make it more efficient. I mean, I meal prep in like 20, 30 minutes, and that doesn't always include cooking time, but while things are cooking I'm doing all this other stuff anyway, all right.

Philip Pape: 18:11

The next one number 16, is for folks who are still struggling to get enough whole foods in their diet. Maybe they're a little bit picky, maybe they just have too much processed food laying around, whatever. And this is to give yourself a points system and I'm not talking about Weight Watchers here. Okay, I'm not saying points for all the different foods, not talking about Weight Watchers here. Okay, I'm not saying points for all the different foods. Just give yourself your own simple point system related to the minimum amount of whole foods you want to eat every day. And this could be as simple as every time you pick an ingredient you know, like your main protein, your main side, whatever that you give yourself a point if it's a whole food, and every time you choose a processed food, that is either a negative point or just no points. So just keep it super simple and the idea is you have a minimum score every day. So I would take how, look at your food log and if you're like, hey, I don't need enough whole foods, I wanna have at least two more servings or meals or snacks or whatever that have whole foods, set yourself that point difference as your goal. Right, like I want to get up to this level and that's a different way to take your food log and get value out of it, from the awareness to see am I eating nutritionally what I intend to eat, Not just calories and macros? All right, the next one is super important.

Philip Pape: 19:29

I call it movement integration. This is where we make excuses that we can't get enough steps during the day because we don't have time, and I always say, well, can you get steps while doing something else? Can you systematically add in steps without disrupting your workflow for the day? For example, if you're on calls, if you're on Zoom, if you're on your phone, if you're scrolling social media, if you're watching Netflix, can those things be incorporated along, you know, stacked along with movement? So, movement integration. I want you for this idea just identify points throughout your daily routine, sit down, look at your schedule, say, okay, this point, this point, in this point, I could potentially add some movement in, and I'm not going to disrupt anything. I'm not going to disrupt anything. It's really great. Two for one to stop making excuses on getting more movement, all right.

Philip Pape: 20:13

The next one is a little more nuanced. It has to do with hunger and satiety. What I want, what I thought of here for this idea this is number 18, is to give yourself a score for your meal size. Now, this is this. This might sound a little tricky, but, and it could be just based on calories. But the problem with calories is it doesn't account for volume. So you could make it based on grams, if you're weighing everything, for example, and what I want you to do is say, okay, my lunch was 300 grams of food, my snack was 150, my dinner was 700. And what you can do is just give that a simple relative score of meal size, right, and then, based on that meal size, see how it correlates with your hunger levels. Now, this might sound a little bit complicated, but it's. It's an objective way to tie volume and timing with your hunger, especially if you're like, oh, I always get hungry at 3 pm. Well, just do this for a few days. Document your meal size as just you know. It could be a one, two or three. It doesn't even have to be super granular. Just say that this a little tiny snack is a one, this is a two, this is a three. Now again, be careful If you eat a Hershey's bar that's not that maybe isn't a one, that might be a two because of all the calories and then you correlate it with your, your hunger levels. So that that's what I had there. I don't know how helpful that idea is, but I had it on my list. All right, number 19,.

Philip Pape: 21:40

It's going to sound a little similar to the previous one I had about filming your lifts, but this is what I want you to do is take one accessory or isolation movement. So forget about the compounds. This is more for the smaller lifts, and I want you to focus on one technical aspect of that. You can film yourself, you can compare it to videos, whatever, and I want you to focus on progressing that thing. So, for example, a bent over barbell row I recently worked on that and said I need to focus on the angle that my back is bent over and to truly do a proper row where I'm pulling it up to mid back, as opposed to kind of a cheater row where my back angle is up high and I film myself and I watch and I'm like my back's still too high there. What do I? I watch and I'm like, oh, my back's still too high there. What do I need to do? Oh, I need to stand on a pad right A three, a two inch pad so that the bar doesn't touch the ground, so I can bend over enough right. Just take one of those accessory lifts that you're like, ah, I don't quite have this, and really dive all into it. Go watch videos, look at different videos from different people explaining it Long explainer videos and just really dive in and become an expert at that one lift, ask for questions, talk to your coach, et cetera, and really systematically develop that one thing as a skill and then move on to the next one after you've mastered it. Okay, number 20.

Philip Pape: 23:02

Now you guys are going to love this, because you listen to the Wits and Weights podcast and I am bombarding you with constant information and knowledge. Are you doing anything with this and do you even know how to do something with it because you don't even have the information. What do I mean is I want you to build a personal database of evidence-based nutrition information. I want you to have your own. It could be simple. It could be a notes app in your phone. It could be a notes app in your phone. It could be a Google Doc. It could be an email to yourself that you keep adding to Whatever makes sense for you as you're listening to this show and any others. I want you to add one new research-based fact every week. I mean you could add more. I don't want you to go crazy where you're like every day listening to 10 podcasts and adding 100 things. I want you to add like one per week and think about how it practically applies to you. If it doesn't seem like it's relevant or you don't really care whatever, don't add it to your list. Put something on there that you are going to take action on. I'm not even talking about the action taking right now. I'm just saying keep track of those things all in one place so that you can go back and re-review them, get it fresh in your mind, and sometimes that can be a catalyst for taking action. All right, we're getting to the end of the list. I have five left for you. I know this is long.

Philip Pape: 24:12

Number 21 is to create a structured recovery routine. So we talk about having a training routine. We talk about sometimes even having a sleep routine, although very few people do that. I'm talking about creating a recovery routine, and so what this would look like is just like you have your workout logs and you're you know you prep for your four workouts a week or whatever. I want you to have a time dedicated to your recovery, or at least a review of what you're doing for your recovery that prescribes for you specific actions you are taking. So this could be your recovery training routine could have reminders for when to get ready for bed, for wearing your blue blocking glasses, for cutting off your Wi-Fi, for doing your breathing exercises or your meditation. Heck, it could even have going for walks in there, and it's like having a workout routine that's not focused on working out but instead focused on recovery. Does that make sense? This may not be for everyone, but I thought it could be helpful for those of you struggling to recover to actually put it down on paper.

Philip Pape: 25:18

All right, number 22 is a rest period tracker. Now a lot of you struggle with recovery or not being able to get all the reps because you're not resting long enough between sets. You know who you are. For those of you who get your three, four, five minutes or more between a lot of your exercises, or as little as two to three on isolation work, you're probably good. You don't need this one. But for those of you who know for a fact you probably only take 30 seconds of rest or 60 seconds of rest, I want you to put together a way to track your rest periods and ensure that you're doing them. Now, for many of us, this is our workout app or notebook, and some of our workout apps have rest timers, but even then, there's not really a good way to track the rest periods. Some apps I've seen actually do have them built in, but most don't. So you've got to come up with a way to effectively check off the fact you have your rest period. So one way you can do this is take your workout for the coming week and put down on paper how long you are going to rest minimum between every single set. I know it takes work to do this, but just put it down on paper, put little check boxes and then when you go to the gym, have that along with your workout log and make sure that you are actually, you know, not lying to yourself that you're doing the rest and you're checking it off. And I'd recommend at least three minutes between big lifts and at least two minutes between smaller lifts, just to start there. And now you can track your rest periods as their own training variables systematically and make sure number one, you're doing them and number two, that isn't the reason you're not getting your reps or not recovering. All right.

Philip Pape: 26:51

Number 23 is for those who always have trouble getting enough protein, and the easy answer is well, you simply need to have enough servings of protein throughout the day, enough meals throughout the day that have protein to get it in. Another simple strategy is to make sure you are day that have protein to get it in. Another simple strategy is to make sure you are starting with protein early and getting it through. What I'm going to tell you here for number 23 is to meal plan just your protein. So some of you you hear meal planning. You're like I don't want to do that. Okay, I get it. All I want you to do is meal plan, just your protein. What that means is you're going to sit down and for tomorrow, right now, for tomorrow, you're going to say what protein am I eating, how much, and when? That's it? Okay, just very rough it, rough, rough, ball rough, park it. I can't even think straight here, ball park it, ball park it and say, okay, I'm going to have my turkey and eggs here, and then I'm going to have my protein shake here and it's going to be one and a half scoops. I'm going to have my chicken for lunch and it's going to be 125 grams, and so on and so forth, and really just do that. And if you can't hit your protein, doing it ahead of time, without emotion, from an objective sense, then you've just discovered your problem. It's simply a matter of logically getting it in there in the right places, the right amounts with the right frequency. So that's a protein meal planning idea. All right.

Philip Pape: 28:14

Idea number 24. It might sound a little bit redundant with some of the others regarding training, but this is a simple way to do this. This is a movement quality score. So when you're in the gym, what you can do in the note in your app or your notebook is rate the movement quality for the exercise and I would just suggest a one to 10 scale. Now you could get you can get crazy with this you could like break it down into all the different cues, like we talked about before, but I would just keep it simple and say, okay, overall for this exercise today, all the sets that I just did, what was my movement quality? And then you can decide am I going to use that to hold me back from progressing next time or, more likely, I'm going to use that to decide which movements need the most focus? That's really the whole point of this one. It's mapping out your movement quality across all your movements and finding out that, oh, my barbell good mornings have pretty low quality, or my push press or overhead press is pretty low quality compared to others. So that's the one objective that I should probably focus on. The problem is, if you don't do that, it's hard necessarily to know after the fact which one you were most or least happy with, because you've done all these movements. And then the week goes by and you've done 20 different movements. So track on a scale of one to 10, the movement quality and then use that to decide which ones need more work, all right.

Philip Pape: 29:29

And then my last idea is really about thinking of nutrition as a thing that you want to plan for on a weekly basis, kind of like your budget or your work schedule, your meetings, the activities for your kids you know kids, your grocery shopping, it's all part of that. And so what I'm suggesting for this last idea is could you create a weekly ritual that combines all the things you need to do all in one to be really efficient? So meal prep, food preparation, optimizing your environment, your kitchen environment, and then planning for the week with whatever ideas from today or any other ideas you want for your meal planning. So what I'm saying is meal prep, environment and meal planning kind of all in one, say, hour-long session. That's super efficient. So while the chicken is in the oven roasting, you are organizing your pantry and then you go ahead and plan out how that chicken fits into your plan for the week, just putting it down in your schedule with yourself as like your weekly nutrition ritual. Does that make sense? Sometimes we think of these as a whole bunch of different things I have to do. I'm so overwhelmed. I just want you to think of it as one combined thing that gets you a three for one or four for one with your planning for the week.

Philip Pape: 30:47

All right, those are the 25 creative ideas and some key themes you're going to notice if I haven't put you to sleep or lost you by now is making choices that you want, whether you call them healthy choices, nutritious choices, making those the path of least resistance. In other words, those are the default things that are the easiest thing for you to do. That's number one. Number two is turning these things into fun games. I mean, you notice how much gamification and logging and strategy with numbers I'm talking about. Now. If that's not for you, great, it's not for you. But if you want to, you can turn your nutrition and training into a game in so many different ways. Number three the third out of four themes here that I noticed is using the environmental design to your advantage, your system. That's what we're doing. We're setting up your system to work for you, reduce friction. And then number four is building those systems that then work for your life and not thinking you have to follow someone else's plan if it's not for you.

Philip Pape: 31:45

So the power of all of these is you can just start small, pick one idea that resonates with you and again, the whole guide is gonna be printed out in a PDF downloadable. I'm going to post it in the Facebook group. All you have to do is join totally free, and you can find it there. But pick one thing, see how it feels. See how it fits you. One thing See how it feels, see how it fits you, adjust it and, if you like it great, talk about it. Tweak it. Come up with your own ideas, talk to people about it, share it. Right. We're not trying to overhaul your entire life on January 1st. We are trying to find clever ways to make fitness fit into your life forever. Now.

Philip Pape: 32:21

One last thought I had is about lateral thinking, and I know this episode's getting long, but lateral thinking will make conventional approaches also work better, because when you start looking at problems creatively, you develop what engineers call solution patterns. Right. You become better at solving all kinds of challenges, not just the ones related to fitness, and so this could help you everywhere in your life. All right, as we begin 2025, I challenge you to think differently about your fitness goals Instead of forcing yourself into someone else's systems. Use these strategies, these creative ideas, to build an approach that works for you, and remember, the most sustainable solution is rarely the most obvious one.

Philip Pape: 33:00

Don't make excuses. Don't say you can't do something. Say how can I do it? And what if it works a different way? Sometimes you have to look at things sideways to move forward. All right, so again, join our Facebook group. I'd love to see you in there. I'd love to hear from you, I'd love to hear how you're applying these ideas. Or if you just want to join and grab the guide, that's fine too, and you can connect with others who are using these strategies as well. Happy New Year. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember sometimes the best solutions come from asking the craziest questions. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.