Osteoporosis and Barbells (How Lifting Weights Prevents Bone Loss) | Ep 245

Could lifting heavy weights be the key to stronger bones and a longer life? What if you could reverse bone loss—even in your 70s?

Philip (@witsandweights) tackles one of the most overlooked aspects of health: bone density. Learn why the traditional advice about osteoporosis falls short and discover the science-backed power of strength training. Philip shares practical tips and key principles to build stronger bones, improve mobility, and maintain independence at any age. Whether you're 30 and proactive or 70 and looking to regain vitality, this will shift your thinking about bone health forever.

📧 To learn more about lifting weights, workout programs, and tips for strength training and building muscle, join my FREE mailing list at witsandweights.com/email

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:10 The reality of age-related bone loss
2:54 Common myths about bone health
6:51 Three key principles for bone adaptation
11:07 Why bodyweight exercises and cardio aren’t enough?
12:25 Misconceptions about lifting heavy weights
16:17 The transformative benefits of strength training
17:23 True strength training vs. lifting weights
19:42 How bone adaptation mirrors muscle growth principles
21:30 Outro

Episode resources:

• Join Philip's FREE mailing list at witsandweights.com/email

Related episode:

• Why Women SHOULD Load Their Spine for Stronger Bones

How Strength Training Prevents Osteoporosis

Traditional advice about bone health has it all wrong. While calcium supplements and light exercise have their place, the real key to maintaining strong bones lies in something far more powerful: strength training with weights.

Most medical professionals and fitness magazines push the same tired recommendations: take your calcium, get some vitamin D, and maybe do some walking. While these aren't inherently bad suggestions, they're woefully incomplete. They miss the fundamental principle of how bones actually adapt and grow stronger.

Your bones aren't static structures - they're living tissue that constantly remodels itself based on the demands you place on it. This is known as Wolff's Law: bones adapt to the forces placed upon them. When you only perform light activity, you're telling your bones they only need to be strong enough for light activity.

After age 30, we lose 3-5% of our bone mass every decade. For women after menopause, this loss accelerates dramatically. Without intervention, this gradual decline can turn a minor fall into a life-altering injury.

Strength training provides three key elements that make it uniquely effective for building and maintaining bone density:

1. Progressive Loading

Just like muscles, bones need gradually increasing loads to grow stronger. Light weights and bodyweight exercises eventually hit a ceiling - they simply don't provide enough stimulus for continued adaptation.

2. Compound Movements

Exercises like squats and deadlifts load your entire skeletal system, triggering bone adaptation throughout your body. This comprehensive loading pattern is far more effective than isolated movements or machine exercises.

3. Mechanical Tension

Heavy lifting creates significant forces that your bones must adapt to - forces far greater than anything you'll experience in daily life or traditional exercise.

Common Misconceptions About Lifting for Bone Health

"Isn't Heavy Lifting Dangerous?"

This fear gets it backward. While proper form and progression are crucial, the controlled stress of strength training is exactly what your bones need to grow stronger.

"I'm Too Old to Start"

Research shows significant improvements in bone density from strength training even in people in their 70s and 80s. Your bones maintain their ability to adapt throughout your life - they just need the right stimulus.

Beyond Bone Health: The Compound Benefits

Strength training doesn't just build stronger bones. You'll also experience:

• Improved balance and coordination

• Enhanced muscular stability around joints

• Better hormonal health

• Increased metabolic rate

• Greater body awareness

• Maintained independence as you age

Taking Action: The Path Forward

The science is clear: strength training is one of our most powerful tools for maintaining bone health throughout life. Whether you're 30 or 70, it's never too early or too late to start. The key is focusing on fundamental movement patterns - squats, deadlifts, presses, and rows - and progressively loading them over time.

Remember: your bones are literally getting stronger with every rep. The question isn't whether you should start strength training - it's whether you can afford not to.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Most people know that bones get weaker as we age, but what if I told you that many of us are approaching this problem completely backward? Medicine has led us to believe that bone loss is inevitable, that calcium supplements and basic movement and exercise are our best defense. Yet research shows there is a far more powerful approach that not only prevents bone loss, but actually builds stronger bones at any age. Today, we're going to uncover how lifting weights yes, actual barbells, dumbbells, machines could be your best defense against osteoporosis and bone loss. You'll learn why the conventional wisdom falls short and how strength training might be what's missing in the longevity approach. Whether you're in your 30s and want to prevent bone loss before it starts, or you're older and concerned about maintaining independence, this episode could dramatically change how you think about bone health and aging. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:10

I'm your host, philip Pape, and when we talk about aging and health, bone density often takes a backseat to more visible concerns like muscle mass or body fat. But here is the sobering reality After age 30, we start losing bone mass at a very alarming rate. It's about 3-5% per decade. So for many people, especially women after menopause, this loss accelerates dramatically. The consequences are that even a minor fall that would have been just an inconvenience in your younger years could now lead to a life-altering fracture, hospitalization, getting on medication and other worsening side effects. But today's episode isn't about fear, although that can be a motivator. Today is really about empowering you with information to completely change your life. We're going to talk about how strength training with weights not just barbells although I think that is a very powerful and effective tool can be your secret weapon against bone loss. Now, if you want a lot more free content related to strength training and lifting weights, supporting your metabolism, building muscle and all of this and you want some exclusive insider content, just join my free email list using the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email. I drop lots of emails with these kinds of mind shifts and what to do about it, and addressing the things that those in their 30s, 40s and beyond often care about and bring up as questions in their fitness journey, and osteoporosis and bone loss is definitely an important one. So, again, join my email list. You'll get those free emails that I don't send anywhere else Go to witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in my show notes.

Philip Pape: 2:54

All right, so I'm very excited about today's topic because I think it's the first time we've ever discussed osteoporosis and bone loss in detail on the show, even though I've alluded to it many times in the context of strength training. And so, to set up the episode for you, we are going to first talk about why traditional approaches to bone health, like the ones that you read about in the newspaper fitness magazines, are often not enough. They're just not adequate. Then we're going to dive into the principles of strength training that make it so effective for bone density, and then we're going to uncover why alternatives like body weight exercises, often aren't enough, followed by the connection between muscle and bone development, and then we'll look at some misconceptions. So I'm trying to pack a lot into this episode, but there are aspects that come up frequently among clients and listeners you know like is heavy lifting safe? It is, you know, high impact worth it for osteoporosis, things like that, and so I want to get into each of those and then reveal the benefits of all of this stuff that even go beyond bone health, just to tie it all up. So let's start with why the conventional wisdom, I think, needs to be addressed.

Philip Pape: 4:03

As always, right, we talk about misinformation and it's disinformation. Misinformation or just people run with the same standard advice that has gone on for years and then they never actually addressed the thing that's going to impact you the most. It really frustrates me. So I still read the paper, the physical paper, I think. Sunday they always have like a little health article and I was excited because the other day they had an article about you know why you should lift weights and muscle mass and all of this, and it was great. They actually, I think, mentioned Mike Zordos, who's a evidence based guy, and I'm like, wow, to see this in the paper is incredible. But 99% of the time it'll be something like I have osteoporosis, what do I do? And then the standard advice is all right, you got to look at your calcium supplements, your vitamin D, you need to make sure you're moving, you're doing some exercise, you know, go ahead and walk, all of that, and it's like where is the? You know, learn to lift weights and load your muscles and bones, because that's going to not only help with the situation, it could potentially reverse it right.

Philip Pape: 5:03

Here's what most people don't realize Bones are living tissue. Bones are constantly remodeling themselves based on the demands we place on them. You know we think of muscle because muscle's, you know, soft Actually I hope my muscle's not too soft anymore, but muscle is like you know, it's soft tissue. We think of bones as these firm, you know, solid structures. It's like adamantium and wolverine right, like they're just fixed in place and they don't change. But it's not true. They are a living tissue that can adapt and remodel themselves. And there's something called Wolff's Law, w-o-l-f-f where bones adapt to the forces placed upon them. Ah, just like muscle. Oh, so that's a huge clue. We can do something about it. We can cause stress and adaptation to our bones.

Philip Pape: 5:46

When you're only doing light activity, you're telling your bones they only need to be strong enough for light activity, which is our baseline. Just walking around, just doing light stuff, carrying the groceries that's light activity. Unfortunately, as you get older, that light activity is offset by the reduction in bone density to where you know you have less and less of it. Right, and think about when someone is bedridden they lose bone density rapidly. Or even somebody, unfortunately, in like a nursing home who's sitting down all day. It's because the bones aren't experiencing any significant stress whatsoever, and so the body adapts. So if that happens and we know the opposite is also true when you place appropriate stress on bones through weight-bearing exercise or I'm going to use the term training because it needs to be methodical, systematic and progress over time your bones respond by becoming stronger, just like your muscle.

Philip Pape: 6:41

Now, what makes strength training itself so uniquely effective, uniquely effective over anything else in the world in existence for bone health? I think that it comes out of three principles, three key principles that drive bone adaptation. And then, if you can understand the principles, you can change how you think about your exercise and training program, as well as aging itself. Exercise and training program as well as aging itself this is the powerful stuff that made me realize when I turned 40, that I could do things that made myself a year younger every time I got a year older. And that's just a simple concept. I mean. In reality, it's not that exact one-to-one type of deal, because otherwise I'll be like Benjamin Button and I'll be five years old when I'm 90. It's not what I mean. But what I mean is I am not beholden to age, and neither are you, all right. So the first principle is progressive overload.

Philip Pape: 7:33

Now I like a different phrase that I heard from Dr Jordan Feigenbaum. He calls it progressive loading, the idea that we're not actually overloading our muscles, we're just loading them enough right to their limit so that they have to adapt. But anyway, just like muscles will not grow stronger if you lift the same weight forever, if you're doing the same pink dumbbells or the same cable stack weight on the machine, your muscles aren't going to get stronger, they're going to get just strong enough to do that and then that's it. Same thing with bones. Bones will not get denser without gradually increasing the load over time, and this is where the traditional exercise programs for bone health fall way short. We're talking about stretching and mobility and yoga and walking. Okay, it's great to be active, but none of that is going to help you progress your bones beyond what they are needed to be to support your body weight or very light loads. Just by definition, you as an organism don't need to because you're telling yourself I don't need to. So progressive overload, progressive loading, which you're going to do anyway for your muscles guess what? They help your bones. Great, two for one.

Philip Pape: 8:37

The second principle is compound movements. Okay now, compound lifts, compound movements are those exercises that involve multiple joints and large muscle groups working together as a system in a movement pattern. Think about a squat. It loads your entire skeletal system, from your shoulders down through your spine, your posterior chain, your hips, your legs, even your calves and feet to an extent even your calves and feet to an extent. And this comprehensive, systematic loading pattern is a natural human movement and it triggers bone adaptation throughout your body, not just in an isolated area. This is why I don't like isolation movements as a singular form of training, like if you've never lifted before and then you go and just do isolation movements. Not only do I not think that cuts it, I think you're setting yourself up for potential injury simply because you're trying to hit one spot and you're not working on the rest of the muscles and joints and bones around it, and therefore the weak spots can really be a bottleneck or a potential source of injury. So, compound lifts, using your whole system. I think the older we are, the more important that actually becomes, particularly for bone density, because you're using your whole system All right.

Philip Pape: 9:52

The third principle, then, is mechanical tension. Now notice, all of these principles apply to strength training and muscle mass as well. So mechanical tension is not just your moving weight, it's you're creating significant force, you're applying significant force that your bones then have to adapt to. And that's the key right Is that when you're combining that with progressive overload, going right to that limit, your bones then get a signal, or your hormones get a signal that your bones have to adapt to be a little bit more dense, thus stronger the next time, along with your muscles. They all go hand in hand. So this is why heavy lifting, when done properly, is so effective.

Philip Pape: 10:33

The forces involved in a heavy deadlift or squat are far greater than anything you'll experience in daily life or traditional exercise, and therefore they equip you for well more than what you need there in daily life and will offset the decline that you would otherwise experience with aging, and it'll make you way more capable as an older person than all the other older individuals. You see, which is great. I mean that lets you show up, that lets you live a long, healthy, vibrant life, keeps you off medication, keeps you out of the hospital, keeps you from disease. And this brings us to an important question then why aren't body weight exercises enough? Why is cardio not enough? All right, now, don't get me wrong. These all have their place in an active lifestyle, but it comes down to physics. A push-up might engage your upper body, but the load is limited to your body weight. Of course, you can put your feet up higher at an angle. Now you've got a little bit more body weight, but it's your body weight. In fact, it's a fraction of your body weight. Right, because some of the load is being transferred into the ground.

Philip Pape: 11:34

A typical barbell bench press, on the other hand, can safely, safely, very safely, expose your bones to two, three or four times that force. Same applies to your lower body. Right, walking or jogging doesn't create enough mechanical stress to optimally stimulate bone growth, whereas a squat absolutely is going to. And keep in mind, a barbell is probably the most effective tool for the job because it's safe. Right, you can set up spotter arms. It's symmetrical. You can load it progressively, even with small increases in weight. You can use microplates and load it progressively forever, effectively. Right, and we know that we can use our normal human movement patterns with a barbell. Right, picking up deadlift, squatting, squat, you know. Vertical press, horizontal press, you know you've got rows, you've got pulls, all of that good stuff. So that's kind of the foundation.

Philip Pape: 12:26

Now where it gets interesting is the connection between muscle and bone development, because when you're strength training, you're not just building muscle or just building bone. You're actually triggering a cascade of adaptations throughout your body. So listen to me carefully here. Strong muscles create greater forces on bones. Those forces then stimulate bone growth. The process of building muscle increases production of hormones that also support bone health, and so it's a beautiful synergy that you can't replicate with anything else. It's all cascading together. All right.

Philip Pape: 13:02

Now let's talk about some of the misconceptions that I think still hold people back, that I hear all the time. This is kind of like my Q&A segment in here, just with the A part, the answers. So first is the idea that lifting heavy weights is dangerous, which is ridiculous. Okay, lifting weights is probably the safest activity that we know. When you compare it to like all forms of movement and activity in sports and you look at the rate of injury it's one of.

Philip Pape: 13:30

If you're older, if you're worried about bone density, I think this fear is actually backward, because, yes, you have to start appropriately and progress gradually, but the controlled stress of proper strength training is exactly what your bones need. It's like thinking that you shouldn't brush your teeth because it might wear them down. The opposite is true. Right, they're going to wear down unless you brush them Another misconception I'm too old and I can't get started. I'm already too weak, my bones are already brittle. I already have osteoporosis. I'm already taking Boniva or whatever it is. I already have to take my calcium supplements. I think the research completely debunks this. Studies show significant improvements in bone density from strength training, even in people in their 70s and 80s, just like we see with muscle mass, and so I'm firmly convinced at this point it is never too late to start. Never, never, never.

Philip Pape: 14:24

Your bones maintain their ability to adapt throughout your life. You're human. That doesn't change. All they need is the right stimulus. So the benefits of strength training, as I've alluded to before, go far beyond just preventing fractures, although that's extremely important, because falling is one of, if not the top, cause of death. When you look at like proximal cause, it leads to other things. That then often leads to death down the line, and I've seen it with people in my life as well, where it just upends your life completely and makes so many other things harder to do. And then we also, if you've never been strength training before and you have a fracture. You're then even less likely to start it because you think, well, now I can't because I've had this fracture or some other injury.

Shonnetta: 15:10

Hi, my name is Seanetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do. Online community.

Philip Pape: 15:55

He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do. So. Obviously, training and developing strength and bones are going to prevent them as well. So if you fall even if you do fall because I can fall I'm 44 and I can trip on a rock and fall I fell when I was like 10 and I broke my arm you are much less likely to have a fracture or much less likely for it to be an issue, because you're stronger.

Philip Pape: 16:13

You have stronger bones, stronger muscles, especially like those little, like a small fall that for a younger person, would be no big deal. And so when you train with weights, especially compound movements, you're also building and improving balance and coordination and mobility. You're building stronger connective tissue between all the joints. You're enhancing the stability of your muscles around the joints. You're boosting your hormonal health Ladies right, hormonal health. This is a massive lifestyle change that will help with your hormones. You're going to increase your metabolic rate so you burn more calories, you can eat more food, have more energy coming in. You're also going to have better metabolic rate, so you burn more calories, you can eat more food, have more energy coming in. You're also going to have better body awareness, whether you want to call that mind-muscle connection or just balance and mobility. It's very important because then you're not going to fall as much, you're going to have more independence, you're going to have better long-term health. You're not just avoiding osteoporosis, you're maintaining the ability to live life fully as you age. Every one of those reps in the gym with that load that's pushing you is literally reshaping your body's architecture to be more resilient.

Philip Pape: 17:32

So let's talk about what strength training looks like compared to what most people think of as lifting weights, because that's another pet peeve of mine of as lifting weights, because that's another pet peeve of mine, right? A lot of traditional workouts or YouTube videos or what used to be in the magazines, or people who just go to the gym and they don't have a plan. What they end up doing is a ton of repetitions with lightweights, like they just do lots of reps, lightweights, 10, 20, 30 reps, lightweights. They use the machine, the circuit program, and they do the same weights every time, and I mentioned before that that is not going to help. That's only going to get you to a certain point, and oftentimes they're focused on isolated movements. You think of some of these machines. They put you in a fixed plane and you're just doing this isolated, one joint movement.

Philip Pape: 18:08

Now, is it better than nothing? Sure, when I see an older person in the gym, just there, I'm like, okay, I'm super excited for them because they're at least focused on trying to be healthy. But then when I see no progress being made, I'm like, well, you're kind of maintaining a minimal. That's probably better than most people, but a far cry from where you could be to really thrive and get the benefits of true strength training. And it's training, true strength training. You're not actually training when you're just using the machines randomly and the weights aren't going up, because the magic happens when you focus on those fundamental movement patterns. The squats, hinges, deadlifts, presses, rows right. Those movements, when progressively loaded over time, create the environment for muscle and bone development. Like we mentioned before, they train your body as an integrated system rather than a collection of parts. So it's super important and if you hear this and you're still not sure what to do, that's okay.

Philip Pape: 19:05

My plan isn't to like tell you how to lift weights today. I have a lot of other episodes that do that but I would say, just reach out to me or join my email list and reply and say, hey, I heard your episode about osteoporosis. What do I do next? Because I need to understand your level of training, advancement, your equipment, how many days per week you can work out things like that, just to kind of put you in the right direction, even if it is to send you to a template or video or resource that I have, all of which are free. You know, I don't charge for any of this stuff unless you tell me then, hey, I need the accountability, support and personalization that a coach provides. Then you know, let me know, but I do have a lot of free resources that'll get you going.

Philip Pape: 19:45

Now, something fascinating that most people don't realize about all of this that the way that bones adapt to strength training is remarkably similar to how muscles grow. I mean, I mentioned it earlier that they're living tissue, right, but even if you weren't thinking about muscles and you only cared about bones, bones need increasingly challenging loads to maintain and build density, and that will be way more effective than any medication or supplement. And I'm not a doctor. It's outside my scope of practice to tell you to take or not take anything like that that your doctor told you to. But seriously, folks, the same principles that help us build muscle and strength are also helping us build stronger bones, and that's the two-for-one benefit that you simply can't get from any of the other approaches. And so you know, just to put Bo on that, all right. As we wrap up, I want you to remember this isn't just about osteoporosis or osteopenia or, you know, just preventing fractures. It's building that foundation for a long, active and independent life.

Philip Pape: 20:44

Think of the things that you want to do when you're 70, 80, 90. Look around you, look at your family, think of your family history and what happens to people when they get older. And whether you want that or not I'm guessing you don't but what do you want? Take it a step further what do you want, what is aligned with your values that you want to do, and don't let the limitations of traditional getting old thinking get in the way. Assume I want you to assume, that you will be able to be as strong and fit and healthy as a 50-year-old when you're 70, 80, or 90. As a typical 50-year-old, you're going to be at least as strong, healthy and fit 70, 80, 90. And assuming that, what does that look like for you? And tell yourself that that is why you want to lift weights right, not just to build stronger bones, but a stronger person, a functional person.

Philip Pape: 21:34

Now, if you're listening to this and you're 30 or you're 70, doesn't matter. Never too late, never too early to start. You start now. I want you to start now. I want you to either reach out if you need help with how to train and what kind of programming would work for you, or just go out and do it. If you have the resources, if you have support, if you have a coach, whatever, I don't care, go do it. If you have the resources, if you have support, if you have a coach, whatever, I don't care, go do it. Go do it.

Philip Pape: 21:56

The research is clear Strength training is one of the most powerful tools we have for maintaining bone health throughout our lives. All right, so remember, if you want some weekly evidence-based tips about strength training, building muscle, also losing fat, hormones, optimizing your health and you're not going to find these anywhere else with the approach that I take, in the way that I take it, plus my quirky personality, you're not going to get anywhere, of course, until I'm able to clone myself someday in the future. Join my email list using the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email Again. Just join my email list. That's also how you can reach out to me and we can have a conversation. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your bones are going to get stronger with every rep, no matter your age. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Why Training Too Much Is Killing Your Muscle Gains (Natural Bodybuilder Jeff Alberts) | Ep 244

Are you pushing to failure in every workout but not seeing the gains you want? Do you think longevity in bodybuilding means constantly increasing intensity? What if smarter, more mindful training could unlock sustainable progress without constant burnout?

Philip (@witsandweights) sits down with Jeff Alberts, the “Godfather of Natural Bodybuilding,” to redefine how to train with purpose. With over 30 years of experience in natural bodybuilding, Jeff coaches athletes to build muscle intelligently through a 3D Muscle Journey. Together, they dive deep into the principles behind sustainable training, revealing why pacing yourself, prioritizing recovery, and respecting individual limitations can lead to a long-term, injury-free journey in the gym.

Jeff Alberts is a WNBF Pro natural bodybuilder with over 30 years of experience in competitive bodybuilding and coaching. Through his company, 3D Muscle Journey, Jeff has helped hundreds of natural athletes achieve their goals by emphasizing a thoughtful, evidence-based approach to training and nutrition. His philosophy focuses on sustainable, injury-free progress and efficient training, making him a trusted mentor in the natural bodybuilding community.

📲 To learn about progressive overload, why it’s important, and how to use it to maximize your muscle gains, download the free Progressive Overload guide here or go to witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:11 Who is Jeff Alberts?
3:56 The counterintuitive approach
6:56 Evaluating the progress
9:12 Guidelines for volume, intensity, and finding an individual threshold
12:23 Understanding principles of training
18:41 Failure: Use or Lose?
21:55 Harmonizing training-recovery and program design
27:12 Realistic expectations for natural athletes
33:05 Joint health, fatigue management, and connective tissue care
46:28 Dieting, fatigue, and pacing weight loss goals
52:16 Outro

Episode resources:

• Jeff’s Instagram: @3dmj_godfather

• 3dmusclejourney.com 

• Youtube: @Team3DMJ 

Sustainable Training for Natural Lifters: Master Your Muscle Growth with Expert Jeff Alberts

For natural lifters grinding away in the gym, pushing every set to absolute failure might seem like the path to gains. But what if this approach is actually holding you back? In this eye-opening episode, I sat down with Jeff Alberts, known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding, to uncover why training smarter - not necessarily harder - could be the key to unlocking your true potential.

The Problem with Maximum Effort Training

Let's be real: many of us fall into the trap of thinking more is better. We push ourselves to the limit every session, chase crazy volume, and end up feeling perpetually sore and exhausted. As Jeff explains, this approach often leads to:

• Decreased performance over time

• Increased risk of injury

• Mental burnout

• Stalled progress

• Joint and tendon issues

Master Your Movement Patterns First

"Let me practice that 100 pounds I hit for 10 reps," Jeff emphasizes. "Let's practice that one, two, three more times to get more competent with it, to master it." This focus on movement quality before quantity is crucial for long-term progress.

Understanding Training Pace

Jeff draws parallels to other sports, particularly baseball pitchers, who carefully manage their pitch count and recovery. This measured approach allows for:

• Better performance quality

• Reduced injury risk

• Sustainable progress

• Improved recovery between sessions

Managing Fatigue Intelligently

• Training frequency adjustments

• Strategic deloads

• Sleep optimization

• Nutrition periodization

• Volume manipulation

Natural Bodybuilding: The Long Game

Being natural means accepting a different timeline for progress. As Jeff notes, the often-cited "5-year genetic potential" assumes perfect training and recovery - something few achieve. Instead, focus on:

Sustainable Progress Markers

• Skill development

• Movement mastery

• Performance improvements

• Body composition changes

• Recovery quality

Training Variables to Experiment With:

• Rep speed and tempo

• Grip width and angle

• Range of motion

• Exercise variations

• Rest periods

Signs You're Training Too Hard

• Chronic joint pain

• Decreased performance

• Poor sleep quality

• Low motivation

• Persistent fatigue

The Bottom Line

For natural lifters, especially those over 40, training smarter rather than harder is crucial for long-term success. Focus on mastering movements, managing fatigue, and maintaining a sustainable approach that allows for consistent progress without burning out.

Remember: "Your muscle doesn't know numbers," as Jeff says. "Your muscle knows effort." Find the sweet spot between challenging yourself and maintaining quality, and you'll be set up for long-term success in your training journey.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

📞 Send a Q&A voicemail

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been killing yourself in the gym, pushing every set to failure and feeling perpetually sore and exhausted, yet your gains have stalled, or you're constantly fighting injuries, fatigue and burnout, this episode is for you. Today, I'm sitting down with Jeff Alberts, known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding, to reveal why training smarter and efficiently, and not always more, might be the key to finally breaking through those strength and muscle plateaus. You'll discover how to build muscles sustainably without the constant grind that leaves you dreading your workouts. Whether you're a serious, experienced lifter or just getting started, this episode will give you a new perspective on training intensity and help you create a sustainable, long-term approach in the gym that doesn't burn you out. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:00

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing the art and science of sustainable muscle building with none other than WMBF Pro natural bodybuilder, jeff Alberts. Jeff is widely known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding. With over 30 years of experience competing and coaching, he's helped hundreds of natural athletes achieve their goals through his company 3D Muscle Journey, aka 3DMJ, and for anyone who's been following him for a while you probably can appreciate his thoughtful, measured and, of course, evidence-based approach to training and nutrition, today you'll learn why constantly pushing yourself to the max might be slowing your progress, how to increase efficiency in your training and practical ways to build muscle while staying fresh both mentally and physically. You'll discover how to manage fatigue intelligently and how to create longevity with your training. Jeff, it's an honor to have you on the show.

Jeff Alberts: 1:52

I appreciate you having me and yeah, after that introduction, hopefully I can deliver.

Philip Pape: 1:58

You'll definitely deliver, my man. So I mean just for the listeners. Jeff's a really cool guy. When I reach out to him to schedule this podcast, I usually send out some topics and things and he actually wrote back with thoughts on each idea and I was really impressed by that. It tells me what kind of coach he is as well.

Philip Pape: 2:13

But, having heard him on many other podcasts, I wanted to bring him on because you as a listener appreciate that data and evidence-based approach and many of us we're in our 40s I turn 44 tomorrow after we recorded this episode and I'm always reflecting on how do I get the most out of my lifting without getting too much pain, without having to have surgery or have something hold me up along the way. And, jeff, a lot of lifters feel like they have to push harder and they have to train with a ton of volume and they crash and burn. Then they switch up their program, they stop making progress even though in the short term they might. And so, for those who've been grinding at the gym, they go, you know, multiple days a week, multiple years, and they're not seeing the results they expect, or maybe it's slowed down. What is the biggest impact on their long-term growth at that point?

Jeff Alberts: 3:06

I got to say happy birthday first.

Philip Pape: 3:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks, man you still got a ways to go.

Jeff Alberts: 3:10

Yeah, yeah, you got a ways to go.

Philip Pape: 3:12

I do man, it's all good.

Jeff Alberts: 3:14

That's a long-winded question. That's pretty deep there. We're talking about longevity, right?

Philip Pape: 3:20

Yeah, I know, man, I totally. You know these opening questions. I'm like how simple or complex should they be? It's really like people wonder there are a lot of training variables and there's a lot of things you could change, and I think people change too much at one time of programming and the training variables. But they've gotten the tendinitis, they've had the hip, you know, the labral tear, whatever it is. You know they've kind of gone up or down and it felt flatlined, maybe for a while. What's the thing that they need to change or think about first?

Jeff Alberts: 3:56

Understand pace, Because I mean, think about what are we trying to accomplish here? You know, if we're talking about natural bodybuilding, it's a long man's game. You're not playing nine holes of golf, You're trying to play 18. So you got to learn about pace and it's like, yeah, we can look at all these shiny new toys that are out there and, like you know, we're gung-ho as far as trying to implement all these new things and, you know, trying to be really scientific, what it comes down to is what's practical and what is sustainable.

Jeff Alberts: 4:28

And for myself personally, you know, I always think about, like, what my current context is. You know I'm talking about life context. Same thing with my athletes that I coach like what does their actually daily life look like? And then from there it's like, okay, what can we do? What can we do that's going to be productive, but yet it's time, efficient and you're able to recover from it. And then from there, of course, you can kind of build things out, but I think it just comes down to pace.

Jeff Alberts: 4:57

Like the reason I'm still doing it this long, it's kind of just understanding that I have to pace myself. And you know I took myself back to my 20s, 30s, Like, obviously you can get away with a lot more things because your body is a little more pliable. So you know, there's some things I was doing that I'm sure I could have gone back and say, hey, let me improve upon the approach, and it would have been more of a conservative approach. I probably would have seen better progress because of it. But now it's like I really have to pay attention to my body. You got to pay attention to what life's throwing at me and in a sense, like I keep saying, just controlling that pace is just so important and you know it is. We always want to get further ahead, a lot faster. So that's the problem, Like sometimes we just get in our own way, in a sense.

Philip Pape: 5:41

Yeah, I've heard people joke, especially the older lifters, that no matter how much you hear this message on a podcast, it's like until you experience it you know you don't truly learn the lesson, and hopefully we can help people not have to experience more than they need to. But uh, you have kids, right, do you have kids?

Jeff Alberts: 6:00

Yeah, I have kids, I mean, yeah, you tell your kids you're blue, your blooming face, don't do that. Don't do that because you know it's going to happen. But they don't listen. And then they experience it and they're like oh okay, now I know what you're talking about. So it's like I mean Sticking that fork in the light socket. It's good to you, know, throw out some seeds, but I mean, you got to have them watered too. I just got to let people experience things as well.

Philip Pape: 6:22

Yeah. So I think that idea of pace and it strikes up in me the idea of, when we talk about efficiency, finding that minimum to make progress without going past that point Right. And there's a lot of discussion about overtraining, overreaching, building up fatigue and so on. I guess, when it comes to efficiency, what's the prevailing angle of attack here for efficiency? Is it minimum effective dose? Is it like let's strip everything back and start from a very basic low volume approach?

Jeff Alberts: 6:52

What's minimum effective dose.

Philip Pape: 6:54

Okay, yeah, you tell me, what is that. What is that?

Jeff Alberts: 6:57

I have no idea. Like I know what it is for me because I got enough experience, I've tried on air. It's so much to kind of know where that sweet spot is for me. But if I have someone that I'm working with for the first time, I have no idea what they can handle, how they respond to it. It's a lot of trial and error. So it's like okay where science comes into play. It's like okay that 10 to 20 sets you know general guideline Okay, if I'm working from that, if I have someone who's new to lifting, like 20 sets probably not going to go over too well because they don't have the skill level yet with things. So it's like maybe 10 sets is too much. Like I just want to focus on getting this person learning, teaching them how to move from A to B effectively, not so much worrying about the progress or the progressions with their lifts, more so like teaching them a skill. So it could be maybe it's six sets a week and let's just really make those six sets Like, once you learn how to move, okay. Now it's like let's focus on trying to move heavy things with that type of skill and improving the load, improving the reps over time.

Jeff Alberts: 7:58

And how are we responding now? Is your physique improving from that? If it is great, we may not have to do anything for a while, like we may not have to increase the volume. Eventually, you might get to a point where they're plateauing out. You don't see as much progress, strength kind of plateauing out. Then the question becomes okay, are you handling this? Are you low energy or high energy? And if you're handling things really well, it's like okay, now I feel more comfortable giving you more work because you have the supply to keep it going. But if it's because of fatigue, last thing I want to do is add more volume or more workload.

Philip Pape: 8:31

Yeah, that's a good starting point. Then, if you mentioned evaluating the progress and then going from there, how does so? I know I mentioned more experienced lifters early on, but there is kind of the different categories Somebody who's brand new to this versus somebody who's experienced. Somebody brand new is probably going to be very responsive to almost anything. So let's jump ahead a little bit and say they've been lifting six months, maybe 12 months at least, and they're looking for that point. Are you looking for them to report out on RPE? How are you collecting that data of the response session to session? And then, when you say physique development, are you just measuring and you know, using body measurements or what's your gauge for that?

Jeff Alberts: 9:11

I think you use all the above. So if we're talking from a performance perspective, it's like, okay, are the numbers moving? But are the numbers moving with skill? Because you can see numbers in a spreadsheet and go, okay, yeah, it looks like eight reps, nine reps, 10 reps, whatever. It's like, okay, it looks like it's moving up, but then you watch the form, see how they're moving, that skill isn't there and it's like, okay, that's not being efficient, that's probably not being effective. So, like you might need to clean form up. Maybe you need to take a step back and go, okay, bring your loads down or whatever.

Jeff Alberts: 9:42

And let's again hone in on the skill and what I've been doing lately, even for myself, because I've obviously I've been lifting for a very long time and I take pride in my skill level and form and all that. Like, whenever I get to a high end of a rep range with a certain load, I won't immediately go up to a new load. I'll probably roll with it one to three more sessions just to really ensure I'm very competent with it, like I've mastered it, because I know when I do increase the load from that point I'm probably going to have the same type of skill with the new load. You've probably experienced this, where you touch a load for the first time, you might get the reps a little shaky. You're like, okay, I completed it. Then you go to the next load. You know, the following week it's like oh, it's just all over the place. So from a skill component, I'm always thinking like okay, let's master what we're doing first, before even thinking about taking a step forward.

Philip Pape: 10:32

That's important, what you just said, because you're talking about load specific skill. I think a lot of people think it's like one and done. Like okay, I've been progressing, I've gotten better with my form, Now I'm good right. Like no, like you said, the center of gravity shifts. You know the balance, everything about it just slightly shifts the heavier it gets, and the bar path and all that could change if you don't change something. So that's a powerful concept, jeff, seriously, that people need to think about.

Jeff Alberts: 10:58

What you think about is like it doesn't mean you can't continue to make progress with that same load, like you should be hitting the appropriate proximity to failure, even if it's the same load, so you're still getting a stimulus. Your muscle doesn't know numbers. Your brain does, but your muscle doesn't. Your muscle knows effort and that's something like right now. I feel like, because I am advanced, I can have no spreadsheet whatsoever, not even count or track anything, but I know I'll get a stimulus every workout and because of the skill, getting to the appropriate proximity to failure.

Philip Pape: 11:28

And is this generally? We're talking generally week to week progress in a typical program, like a four or five day split where you're talking your your squat variant on Monday to your next Monday. Is that generally what we're talking?

Jeff Alberts: 11:40

about. I mean yeah, but I mean that's only going to last so long. I I mean yeah, but I mean that's only going to last so long. I mean eventually you're going to run out of like runway, like you're not going to be able to progress weekly, like the more advanced you are, you're like you might be able to get 10 pounds over six months.

Philip Pape: 11:53

In which case are you? Is that even more biased toward rep progression?

Jeff Alberts: 11:58

Depending on the lift. Yeah, yeah, okay, I mean, yeah, I think about you try to increase your loads every week. At that point it's like, yeah, you're going to end up being buried.

Philip Pape: 12:07

I think a lot of folks are curious about that, because people get frustrated when they get stronger and they're not progressing. They know they've heard time and again okay, I'm intermediate or I'm advanced, my lifts aren't going to go up as quickly. How do you get the sense of progress session to session?

Jeff Alberts: 12:25

Okay. So let's look at I've been going to my son's karate classes. Right, he started out as a white belt and now he's red black. He's maybe a year away from black belt and like when I go to his classes, you know the expectations of a white belt, a yellow belt, blue belt, like it's all different. So sometimes we expect to go from white belt to black belt, you know, and maybe the pace early on is faster, but as you get closer to black, like then there's first degree, second degree and it takes longer. I'm assuming it does. People are probably listening to Marshall, I just got a jet. That's not true, but I'm assuming like going from first degree to second degree it's going to take quite a while. Second to third takes even longer. Like my son's master is a fifth degree black belt. So like I can only imagine like when he first got his black belt, the fifth degree, it probably took quite a while.

Jeff Alberts: 13:12

Or look at olympic sprinters to get like a temp faster. They're training like four years to make that happen. Olymp to Olympics. So I think the expectation is like the more advanced we get, we just have to come to the realization that things are just going to move a little slower. And the thing is right now. Because I've been training for so long, I appreciate where I'm at right now a lot, because I know how hard it's taken me to get to this point and I know how hard it is to maintain it. So there's a level of appreciation for just what I'm capable of doing right now, even if it means I'm not putting on any more muscle. And I think that's where some people fall short. They're always like wanting to go, move ahead, move ahead, move ahead, take a step, take a step, take a step but they're not slowing down and appreciating what they're actually accomplished.

Philip Pape: 14:04

Yeah, and that's kind of the topic we're getting at today is, and that's why I think it's more relevant to more intermediate to advanced lifters is they want to see the progress they used to have and may not in the same way. It's progress that has to be measured differently, and the question for some of them is how do I shift my perspective and what I measure to properly gauge that and not feel like I'm just plateauing? Right, that's part of it. And then also, I don't just hop to another program, like, okay, it's not working for me. I'm going to go to Westside now, and now I'm going to go to the six-day hypertrophy program over here, considering that my audience is probably a normal curve but shifted slightly more toward less experience.

Philip Pape: 14:42

But not you know, what would you say to those people and I'm thinking a lot of guys my age who basically, like they started with starting strength or something like that, five by fives, and they shifted over to some sort of split intermediate programming and they're expecting, you know load to keep going up and, like you said, it's not going to happen. So what do they switch to? And I'm asking you what sounds like dumb questions. I hope I know some of these answers, but for the audience, yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 15:06

No, they're good. They're good questions and, like I consider myself someone who uses intermediate programming. But I've mastered it because I know with intermediate programming the principles are in place and that's what it comes down to is understanding principles of training. Once you know principles then you get a lot more comfortable with programming because you know there's nothing magical about an upper-lower split, a push-pull leg split, full bodies like all that stuff. As you know, it's just ways to organize your frequency, your intensity and the volume.

Jeff Alberts: 15:39

So when you think from that perspective, it's like this week I can run an upper-lower split, next week I can do push-pull legs. The following perspective it's like this week I can run an upper lower split. Next week I can do push pull legs. The following week I can do a full body split. And as long as I'm, you know, hitting my baseline volumes, that what I need. I'm able to perform it really well. I get to the appropriate proximity to failure with skill, I'm getting plenty of recovery, I'm well fueled. You know, chances are, across those three weeks it's probably going to be the same result at the end of the day. Maybe some very tiny maybe differences one way or another, but we're talking like splitting hairs and that's why I wore a hat today, so I don't have to show my bald head.

Philip Pape: 16:14

I understand. No, no, all good All good.

Jeff Alberts: 16:16

Oh, that's a joke.

Philip Pape: 16:16

All good.

Jeff Alberts: 16:17

Yeah, but I think that's just as an intermediate. It's just like because you're not, because, in a sense, when you're a beginner intermediate, you're not where you want to be yet, so there's going to be a sense of urgency. It's a double-edged sword, though. If you're like pushing yourself too much or you're trying to flip-flop training programs because you're trying to look for this shiny object to get you there faster, but at the other side of the sword it's like because you're changing maybe things up too frequently, then you kind of lose sight of, like, what's actually working and what's not, because you're changing things out too much. That's why I'm an intermediate programmer for myself, because it's just straightforward, it's very consistent. It's easier for me to assess what's working, what isn't working. Things that work, you keep it in there. Things that don't work, you're like let me explore.

Jeff Alberts: 17:05

But it's not changing out the entire programming. I might say, well, okay, this certain exercise, you know it's not really grooving right now, and then you find a different movement that's going to hit the same body part. Let's change it out and see how this one works. So I'm only changing one, maybe two variables at most. Okay, now I know. Like I ran this for two months Now I know exactly what happened with this. One change was either positive or negative, and again, it's a positive, keep it. It's a negative, find something else and eventually you keep evolving. You keep evolving over time and that's how you get experience. That's how you get more comfortable with keeping an intermediate program. In a sense, keep it an intermediate program.

Philip Pape: 17:43

in a sense I like that you're almost qualifying the word intermediate as if it could be taken as an insult, right for an advanced person. I like how you frame that.

Jeff Alberts: 17:50

I can take starting strength and probably make it advanced running it, because there's a difference in skill level versus me now, versus me in year one. I can almost guarantee you I probably make well. I'm getting older, now it's harder to make gains, but you know what I'm saying. Guarantee you I probably make well. I'm getting older, now it's harder to make gains, but you know what I'm saying. I can probably perform exceptionally well using that and recover well because of the skill level yeah, I mean, you're the poster child for those listening who don't know, jeff already white belt, black belt.

Philip Pape: 18:15

Right, there's a yeah yeah, look up, jeff, though I mean again, age is not a factor on this, he demonstrates that. But you talked principles, and that's like the magic word. I did want to come back to that because everybody has their like. Here's my five pillars of lifting, or my three principles, and you'll talk about progressive loading or overload. You'll talk about mechanical tension and talk about volume, frequency, intensity, like, can you simplify that for us? Like, in your mind, what are those principles?

Jeff Alberts: 18:41

I think when we think about okay, so if you talk about, we're talking about programming, right, yeah, programming, I mean we could look at the science, right, Okay, we got to hate body parts two or three times per week, maybe four, but I think four is a stretch for most everyday people. Even three can be a stretch. Even once per week can elicit some progress. So I mean sweet spots, maybe two or three times a week. So you look at that volume. We know the 10 to 20 sets thing. But again, I lean more towards on the lower end. When I'm starting somebody out, it's skill development first and then after a while you're like okay, maybe we can start gravitating higher. But I think of that. Okay, we're 10 to 20, somewhere in that ballpark.

Jeff Alberts: 19:20

Proximity to failure based on a rep range. So we know through the science, anywhere between five to 30 reps creates hypertrophy. So it's more about proximity to failure in relation to the rep range. You're using Lower reps, you can be further away from failure. I mean celestity within reason, and then the higher the reps are, you got to get close to it or very like a rap failure to ensure you are getting enough muscle fiber you know, while you're doing the lift.

Jeff Alberts: 19:49

So when you look at those principles, it's like okay. So then from there, I'm like okay, based on someone's context, the question I'll ask somebody is how many days per week can you train where it doesn't interrupt your life schedule? Because when you're in the gym, the last thing you want to be worrying about is I got to take my kids to school or my wife's upset at me, because I'm in the gym for three hours, or I'm there six days a week. I'm not spending time with the family. So when you're in the gym, you just want to be stress-free. So that way, when you are lifting, it's just all about you and that's where you're going to get probably your best performance.

Jeff Alberts: 20:26

So once I know how many days per week they can train, then it's like okay, can I get the frequency two to three times, or does it have to be used to be once? Because that's going to be practical. It may not be optimal according to science, but it's optimal according to that person, based on their constraints. So they're going to maximize themselves far better because they're doing something that's going to be lower stress. And then from there you get into the weeds. Like okay, let's talk about exercise selection, like, okay, this guy on this podcast said this is the most optimal thing. I look at it as like does the exercise hit the muscle I'm trying to target? Is it safe and comfortable for me? Do I have good stability while doing it and do I enjoy doing it? Because if those things check out, then it's a good exercise, regardless of what anybody else says.

Philip Pape: 21:18

Yeah, those are solid principles. I like how you said this is optimal for the person, right? Because at the end of the day, it ties back to what you mentioned earlier about pace and what's practical, sustainable and what is your life context. I laugh when you talk about days per week, because for me personally and I've seen it with a lot of my clients that often is the thing, that's the main constraint, and if you're hung up on that or you get fixated on the other principles and so you pick this program and you just can't stick with it because of your life, like, forget about it. I also think of sleep in that regard, right? Or fat loss, where you've got all this extra stress, you might want that extra day just to sleep an extra hour, and that can make all the difference in the whole week.

Jeff Alberts: 21:55

So people try to you know, I want to train six days a week because they think more is better, or the insecurity they think they're not going to make gains if they're not there. Or some people just love to train to a fault. Yeah, I would love to be in the gym seven days a week because obviously I love to train, but I also know that's not realistic to my life schedule. It's also not realistic to my recovery and I've said this on other podcasts. But I don't look at bodybuilders that much anymore.

Jeff Alberts: 22:24

To learn about bodybuilding, I look at other sports because they do a far better job at managing their performance and their recovery, because sports is all performance-based. So you look at football, baseball, basketball, baseball is a good example of starting pitchers. There's a reason the managers keep track of the pitch count and the number of days they're pitching in a week because they know if this pitcher is getting fatigued they're not going to have the velocity and the control on their pitches. But as body lawyers we're like, hey, let's just throw 150 pitches. To me it just doesn't make sense the way people think about bodybuilding sometimes. So I'm like let me use these principles from other sports and apply it to my bodybuilding, apply it to my athletes and usually you get a nice balance, nice harmony with performance, recovery plus real life stuff.

Philip Pape: 23:15

Yeah, that's a great point because I'm big into sports documentaries now the ones like on Netflix. There's one that just came out called the Comeback about the Red Sox Yankees 2004. It's funny you mention that because both Pedro and also Curt Schilling they talk about both of them Pedro being pushed to well beyond his limit in the series that they lost in 2003, and then the manager was fired for it. And then Curt Schilling, he had a tendon issue and he just could not pitch. It was like the first game of the series in 2004. And then when he came back the next time, they talked about how a surgeon like did this wonky, you know, stapling his tendon to his bone or something on his ankle to stabilize it.

Jeff Alberts: 23:53

Yeah, I remember the bloody sock Remember.

Philip Pape: 23:56

Yeah, the bloody sock, exactly. So I'm like that is such a great example of taking what the heck do athletes do Tom Brady, getting 11 hours of sleep you know that'd be great to see what they do to manage this fatigue. So I want to play off one of those principles. Then that comes to mind is the proximity to failure. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding there as well. You kind of you reiterated the understanding that there's a wide rep range to choose from. So let's get out of the old school, like strength versus hypertrophy regime or whatever. But a lot of people do think they have to train like really right up to failure. And you know, I know Dr Israel Till and others have always thrown out the two to three rep range. And then even more recent research, I think that Mike Zordos, the big main analysis that came out recently, talked about like six reps from failure even being effective so what is that?

Jeff Alberts: 24:43

what is that, though, like?

Philip Pape: 24:44

what do you?

Jeff Alberts: 24:44

mean like if I have like someone who's new or even an intermediate, yeah, what's six reps in the tank, like I don't even know what. Six reps in the tank so far, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah it's even hard to gauge what four in the tank is for me oh, you're right, like rpe gets criticized for that yeah one to two reps in the tank, that that's pretty easy. It's like hey, I can tell you like I need you to, like when you think you just can't do anymore.

Jeff Alberts: 25:07

Just when you mentally think you can't, you probably do two reps, you're probably really close to where we need you to be and without having to get like overly analytical on things. And then failure is like I mean to teach failures like they'll just have someone do a tricep, press down or a lateral and say hey, I want you to go until you just cannot move anymore. Then you get a better gauge?

Philip Pape: 25:30

Yeah, so what do you think of programs that are so? We mentioned starting strength earlier and there's many examples of that that are sets across like get all the reps and then progress, the load type programs. Again, maybe this is going more toward newer lifters. They're not thinking of proximity to failure, they're just thinking get all the reps and increase the weight next time. Right, not a bad idea to pay attention to, like take notes.

Jeff Alberts: 25:52

Hey, I hit 10 reps, I got the top end, but how many more could you have done? Was that like if you barely squeak that out, or it?

Philip Pape: 26:00

was kind of easy. And then that informs the jump for next time perhaps.

Jeff Alberts: 26:04

Yeah. So it's not just, instead of just analyzing the numbers, analyze actually how it felt to move those numbers. And it kind of goes back to what I said earlier, like even though I hit that top end and I hit all my reps across the board and first time I'm not going to, okay, jump to the next load, I'm like let me practice this. Going back to sports, right, like people get better at sports by practice. Let's practice that. 100 pounds I hit for 10 reps. Let's practice that one, two, three more times to get more competent with it, to master it.

Philip Pape: 26:40

I think that's undervalued. Yeah for sure. I think that's why people should stick with certain lifts for more than a couple of weeks, you know, at least early on, just for the practice alone, let alone the progress and neuromuscular adaptation and all that. You mentioned, the getting the data and letting that inform your jumps. I had a client text me and she said something like so my plan is to jump by this many pounds and then when I get to this load I'm going to drop it. I said no, no, that's the kind of backward. Get to this load, I'm going to drop it. I said no, no, that's kind of backward. Don't assume anything. Three, four weeks down the road. Let's judge session by session. You may be able to go up higher.

Philip Pape: 27:06

I don't want to even put limits on yourself until you get there, or maybe less right, so that's good, all right, so you're a natural athlete. There's a big distinction for natural athletes specifically and the life of their training and the expectations. I think some people skew what they think they can get maybe out of bodybuilding or physique sports in general. What are your thoughts on realistic expectations for natural athletes? And I'm thinking muscle growth, but I really mean the longevity stuff we're talking about here.

Jeff Alberts: 27:37

I mean, everything comes to an end right, and that's with anything in life. So I think here for me, like I thought about this the last few years, because I haven't really seen too much muscle size, like realistically I don't think I'm probably going to get any bigger, because I can tell my joints are kind of preventing me from lifting, probably you know, heavier loads and that type of thing, but also just age.

Jeff Alberts: 27:59

So it's accepting that like come to the conclusion like, okay, things are slower, especially with natural bodybuilding. It's slower. I think we just have to come to terms and embrace that. But it doesn't mean you can't have a long shelf life with progress. You've probably heard the five-year. You know shelf right.

Philip Pape: 28:17

It's like Genetic potential in five years. Yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 28:19

Yeah, five years, like I mean, that's assuming you're a perfect robot. Okay, yeah, maybe you get all that in five years. How many perfect robots are there? First year, you're learning how to lift. Still Second year you're like, okay, now I'm learning how to progress. Well, so you're probably, yeah, you're making, you're starting to really move. You're going from white to get into the brown belt, you get into the red and the black belts and things do start to slow. But who's to say that it's over in five years? You might see a little more growth from years five through 10. Look at Eric. Helms is a good example 41 years old and he's still making some pretty decent gains. They're not as fast as when he first started lifting, but for an advanced lifter they're kind of fast. It's like kind of seeing some nice changes and he's learning more about himself, though that's the thing. He's learning how his body still ticks.

Jeff Alberts: 29:12

Even myself, as you evolve, you learn yourself. Like years one through five, you might've done certain things. Years five through 10, you started changing, you're evolving. Years five through 10, you started changing, you're evolving. And then years 15 to 20, same thing. But progress is more than just putting tissue on, because if you're a competitive natural body or there's a skill component of learning how to diet, learning the pace of the diet, retaining muscle mass. That's something that I learned in when I was 38 years old. I got in our pro cards A little late in life, but I was 160 pounds. Two years later I competed as a pro. I was 170 pounds. It was a 10 pound difference. Everybody was blown away. They're like there's no way this guy's natural. He didn't gain 10 pounds of muscle in two years at 40 years old. No, I just learned how to diet better. I learned how to retain muscle better. So there's different levels and there's different ways to create progress outside of just like I've got bigger muscles.

Philip Pape: 30:07

When did you actually start seriously training? How old were you?

Jeff Alberts: 30:11

Well, I started lifting at 14. I've always been. I didn't know what I was doing, but I can go back to when I was a teenager. I was lifting hella hard. Like all I knew was lift hard and go to failure. Early on I had really fast development from 14 to 17. I packed on a decent amount of muscle and by the time I got to high school I was benching 330 at 165. So I had some pretty fast gains. And then since then it's kind of been like up and down, up and down, and that's just because of my knowledge level. Like back then there was no internet, so I was like kind of just doing things on my own, trying to figure stuff out. So there was a lot of ups and downs.

Philip Pape: 30:48

And when. The reason I ask so selfishly? But also again, I know a lot of guys like me who didn't start until, in my case, late thirties. I mean, I did CrossFit for like eight years up and down, but that was not lifting. And so I'm in my first one to five years, at the age of 44. And I don't even know if I've taken full advantage of that. But there's probably a lot of people wondering maybe, what's the potential for a 40-year-old? What's the potential for a 60-year-old?

Jeff Alberts: 31:12

Okay, let me ask you a question, as you brought up for yourself. So you've been hypertrophy lifting for five years, six years.

Philip Pape: 31:20

Since 2020.

Jeff Alberts: 31:25

2020. Out of the last four years.

Philip Pape: 31:26

How much of that time have you spent in a?

Jeff Alberts: 31:28

deficit Probably a year, so three years. Are those three years like well-structured training? I think so, yes.

Philip Pape: 31:34

I believe so.

Tony: 31:35

Nutrition's been on point.

Philip Pape: 31:37

Yeah, I mean, I'm a nutrition coach, I hope so yeah, there you go.

Jeff Alberts: 31:40

So you still, I mean, you've got three years of like really dedicated hypertrophy lifting.

Philip Pape: 31:45

Right, so there's a lot of potential.

Jeff Alberts: 31:46

Exactly, you're only 44. So you still have, like, probably a good decade ahead of you where you can probably continue to maximize yourself. Whether that's 1%, 10%, 50%, who knows, but the thought is is like I'm going to try.

Philip Pape: 32:07

I'm going to try. I'm going to put that effort in, I'm going to make sure all the big rocks are in place and let's see what happens. Yeah, I was going to ask a different twist on that. The question was going to be well then, somebody who's older, what are they never able to accomplish because they started late? And I think that's a terrible question because it doesn't matter it is right.

Philip Pape: 32:18

You know right Like, but people are thinking that you know right like, but people are thinking that you know people beat themselves up, like I wish.

Jeff Alberts: 32:23

I said when I was 20. What's the worst that could happen? If you don't try exactly, then you can get massively there.

Philip Pape: 32:28

That's where you're gonna fail is you're not trying yeah, that's good stuff, man, I have to say, for folks watching or listening like jeff peers deep into your soul and again, he's probably a really good coach for that reason I try to make the podcast as real as possible, like everyone. It's good. It's good.

Jeff Alberts: 32:44

You know how many sets should I be doing? That's what I was thinking. Let's be real. Let's talk like practical Yep.

Philip Pape: 32:49

I agree. Yeah, I've spent a lot of time talking about tactics and I agree it's more fun to get into philosophy and approach. Or they can reach out to guys like you and me and say, okay, now how do I personalize that for myself? But okay, so what was the next thing I wanted to cover here? Fatigue management is kind of another corollary and specifically what I'm thinking is you mentioned yourself joint health and a lot of guys or women I hear about their back, their low back fatigue. Everybody has back issues. We know that quote unquote of some kind as they get older. But lifters especially, who might be dead lifting a lot or doing some other movement, how do we manage all that? How do we manage fatigue management? I?

Jeff Alberts: 33:31

guess the question right your rest days, your sleep, your demand is going to be your training itself Could be cardio, could be steps, life stuff, work relationships. If you're in a deficit, let's say you're in a deficit, that's a demand. So you kind of see where you're at with the supply and demand. Obviously, if you're in, let's say, in the dieting phase, cutting phase, your demand is going to be higher than your supply. So from that perspective you have to understand, let's say, in the dieting phase, cutting phase, your demand is going to be higher than your supply. So from that perspective you have to understand like, okay, how long am I dieting? Is this a short-term cut? Is it a long-term cut?

Jeff Alberts: 34:10

Short-term cut, you might be able to get away with a few more things because it's shorter in nature, no-transcript, and that's what's really key when obviously most people's goals is they want to get bigger or they want to be leaner. So in order to do that you have to manage the fatigue. So it's pretty important that your performance is elevated as much as possible so you can maintain that muscle mass. And then you think about your pace too. When you're dieting down half to 1% of your body weight per week, anything more than that. It's going to be a grind. It's going to be harder to perform, it's going to be hard to recover. Life's going to suck. Your spouse isn't going to like you too much. You're going to be moody, cranky, those types of things. So you have to take all that into consideration, I mean. But the whole podcast could be about fatigue management.

Jeff Alberts: 35:06

Of course I mean you can look at like going back to the sports arena, I was looking up, I was hitting up Google a few years back on NBA basketball. I was trying to figure out the winning percentages of teams that played back-to-back games, because usually NBA schedules they'll play two or three games a week more in there. So the back-to-backs, the second game, the losing percentage was much lower than the first game. Of course you take into consideration some teams are better than others, but in general, like the losing percentage was higher on the second game, which makes sense because they're tired they played the day before.

Jeff Alberts: 35:42

So again like sometimes with training, when you're like if you're training, let's say, two, three, four days in a row, that fatigue builds up. Naturally it's going to build up if you're well-fed, but imagine if you're dieting Two, three, four, five, six training days in a row, like you start getting beat up towards the end of the week. You're feeling it. So sometimes it's like, okay, how can we manage that? It's like, instead of training two or three days in a row, why don't you go every other day? You train hard.

Jeff Alberts: 36:08

Like as bodybuilders, we train hard. So he's train hard, take a day off, recover. He'd be refreshed the next day. Then he'd take another day off or he can go two on one off. So looking at frequency, that's something you look at Intensity, not training as close to failure. Maybe that can help. Maybe dropping down some set volume, eating more food, those types of things, more sleep, like I mean. Just the list goes on and on. But again I think looking at bodybuilders per se is like probably not the area I usually look towards first. It's more like those other sports.

Philip Pape: 36:46

No, I like that. I took a note because this is a. I want to build off that later on for another episode Because, you know, using other sports as an analogy, I don't think enough people do that.

Jeff Alberts: 36:52

And boxing here you know, boxing, boxing, like right Boxer goes out there. It's a hard round. Like well, I got to go 12 rounds here. Like well, I got to go 12 rounds here. And if I'm not able to knock this opponent out in the next one or two rounds, I got to pace this. Oh, you know, you've heard this. Boxers like okay, they took a round off. What does that mean? They're staying on the outside. They're staying. They're not trying to get hit, they're just doing enough to get them through the round. Now I'm going to go sit, go in there for a day or two and I attack hard like I'm going to pull back. I'm going to have a day or two. I'm just not trained and recover. So every time I'm in there I'm like fresh and getting the most performance out of myself.

Tony: 37:36

My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Wits and Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 38:19

All right. So a couple of things come to mind then from this. First is just the general thought for folks who think that there's only one way to solve fatigue and that is to stop doing the movement or to switch movements. And you didn't even go there. You said think about the supply and demand. Oftentimes it's the supply you need more of, or less of the demand, depending on what's possible. You mentioned pacing just being a way to move your training around to help with the fatigue, but you're still getting the same, potentially the same, volume and intensity, even though those are other variables. What are your thoughts, then, on the opposite structure for helping with fatigue? And that is, let's say, you're doing three days a week and you switch to six days a week, but half the sessions. Is that a strategy?

Jeff Alberts: 39:03

That's a strategy.

Philip Pape: 39:04

Yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 39:05

So if you're doing, let's say just, let's just use whole sets of a workout, let's say you're doing 20 sets and you take it down to 10 and you're spreading it all out, yeah, I mean, it's going to be easier to get through the training session Result theory, of course easier to get through the session than maybe your recovery better. So the question then becomes you got to pay attention to is like okay, if you're going from three days. I don't know how your organ is three days, If it's, you know, one on one off, one on one off, or it's every other day.

Jeff Alberts: 39:31

Now you're going six straight days, so then you have to kind of pay attention to what are things feeling like on day four, day five and day six. Even though you've cut the volume in half, you still want to take notes on that, because even though you're doing less work too like think of your connective tissue you're using your connective tissue six days out of the week instead of three, even though it's less work. So you still have to just pay attention to all those variables. In theory it makes sense, but again you got to pay attention to it and personalize it for you.

Philip Pape: 39:58

Yeah, makes sense. So connective tissue again, segue, good segue. Let's talk about that. The joint health, the connective tissue. Maybe again there's some misconceptions there. Some people oversimplify this stuff like, well, if you lift heavy it's bad for your joints. We know that's not necessarily the case, but what are your thoughts on connected tissue, tendon health and things like that for older folks? Am I an older folk? I guess there's a correlation with age right. You said it yourself with a. I guess there's a correlation with age right you said it yourself.

Jeff Alberts: 40:32

It's hard for me to say how other people feel, what they feel. Like I know how I feel and I've noticed the last few years like, yeah, I got to pay closer attention to it. And, like you said, it's not so much the load, because sometimes I can handle load pretty well and sometimes the opposite. You would think like, okay, if the load is heavy hurts, I'm gonna go light low, but then your reps go way up. So now you're getting more. Like, yeah, now you're doing like 100 reps instead of 20, so that can wear your connective tissue out too. So, like, for me, what really helps me is rep speed, like rep cadence. Sometimes, like in the moment I'm controlling that, like you know, like when you're driving a car on a road, you feel a bump you're the moment I'm controlling that.

Jeff Alberts: 41:06

Like you know, like when you're driving a car on a road, you feel a bump, you're like, okay, I'm gonna avoid that bump and move the steering wheel or the traffic in front of me slowing down, put my foot on the brakes. That's kind of like I think, about my rep speed. I'm paying attention how things feel. So if my shoulder, like my right shoulder, gets pissed off quite a lot, like when I'm pressing, so sometimes like my elbow, I'll have to do this or I'll shift it in, I'll even move my shoulder in a little bit those types of things just to avoid, like you know, aches and pains that's really good actually.

Jeff Alberts: 41:35

Rep speed, cadence, grip width, grip angle those are really really good tweaks yeah, like, yeah, like, even like uh on my uh, like I do this movement, it's kind of like a hybrid press, fly, fly. But it's more like a press and a fly at the same time. So the way I hold the dumbbells in my palm someone asked me about this, like you know, about their shoulders and that movement, like I hold it this way, I didn't really realize I was doing it and the reason why it was more instinctual. But I realized is, instead of having that handle like flush and you're gripping it hard the dumbbells, like sitting in my hand and then put the tips of my fingers right in the middle of the handle, the pads of your fingers and thumb over.

Jeff Alberts: 42:13

Yeah, like it just eliminates the shoulder discomfort I have. I don't know why it just does. It's more of an instinctual. But those are the types of things that's worth exploring, whether you're young or old. Like if you're experiencing any type of discomfort, you play around with grip, spacing the way you're holding things red cadence Because oftentimes we'll look at like, okay, should we be doing like slow eccentrics? Should we do a fast, explosive concentrics? Because we're looking at science stuff. It's like how about you go by what feels actually comfortable for you?

Philip Pape: 42:47

Agree, yeah, like for me recently. I had rotator cuff surgery last year and for me, pausing, just pausing, made all the difference.

Jeff Alberts: 42:55

That helps. Yes, I forgot about those.

Philip Pape: 42:58

Even in like bicep curls, you just pause at the bottom and it makes it harder in a different way, even range of motion too.

Jeff Alberts: 43:04

Like I'll play around with that, like I'll cut range of motion short sometimes if there's. You know if I'm experiencing some pain, whether it's at the top or the bottom. Whatever I was doing a couple years back I was doing smith machine bench crosses, but I set the safety arms up to about two-thirds range of the motion.

Philip Pape: 43:21

I cut the bottom, like the stretch portion, out so it's a pin a pin, press a pin, press a pin, bench press.

Jeff Alberts: 43:26

Yeah, just like slow, eccentric Cause it didn't really bother my shoulders too much. Slow on the way down, maybe I don't know close to four seconds. Pause it at the bottom kills the momentum and then when I would start the movement. So instead of thinking of pushing off the pins with a lot of force, like a race car, for example, more like a diesel truck, like, let me just move it slow with a lot of torque, ease into it, ease into it, and then, as it goes, the bar's traveling up, then I'm pressing faster and that's to avoid the shoulder discomfort. Now the question becomes is that more effective than like just the traditional cadence, or more explosive using heavier loads? Mate, as long as this is why I see it, I could be wrong, but as long as I'm going to failure or close to it, I'm probably getting a stimulus regardless.

Philip Pape: 44:14

And, as you mentioned before, the alternative is you're not going to do it because it hurts. It hurts, yeah, exactly.

Jeff Alberts: 44:17

And it's a baseline too, because even though let's say it is suboptimal. It's my baseline, it's what I can do comfortably, and the goal is still the same. The goal is still to try to increase more load over time and more reps over time. So I'm still elevating performance and elevating volume.

Philip Pape: 44:31

Yeah, I like that. And there's so many movements, angles, ranges of motion across all the possible exercises that you could complement it with things to kind of fill in the gap, the example of a race or a car engine. I'm thinking like you know physics and power and explosiveness and speed. There's a whole velocity component to it. That is kind of the principle behind all this, almost, if we're to sum it up so that when you're listening to the show, if you want to train next, you know next time you go train, experiment with that, both at the bottom of the rep, like when you yeah, when you start a rep out, they think of it like if you, let's say, you're at a red light and you're in this Porsche, right, it's got some just high end, you know torque.

Jeff Alberts: 45:13

light turns green, yeah, you punch it, what's going to happen? More than likely the tires are going to spin out. You need the back end starting to squirrel anymore. It's like there's a lot of torque though, there's a lot of power, but there's more control. So that's kind of how I think about when I start some of my exercises out. I think more like a diesel truck versus the race car and it's in a sense it kind of keeps the tension where you want it throughout the entirety of the rep.

Philip Pape: 45:44

And that mind muscle there. Yeah, I'm imagining wheels spinning on my tendons and like wearing them down with the race car. That's good stuff, yeah. No, this is great being mindful and reflective of every rep, just to make sure, so like if we circle back tendon joint health, you know, rather than making drastic changes, rather than hopping around, tweak the movement you think is the offender, see if it makes a difference. Grip with angle, play with different bars too, like they've got multi-grip bars and you've got camber bars and like all this fun stuff. You could mix it up. Yeah, even like I'm thinking pull-ups and chin-ups. Again, you might find it's a game changer to just widen or shorten up that grip or go neutral. So good stuff, all right.

Philip Pape: 46:28

So I'm looking at my questions. We actually covered a lot of what I was going to ask. You even talked about, like you know, cutting and dieting, how the rate of your cut is extremely important and it adds to the stress if you go faster. I think that is really important because, rather than it being a training issue, it could be a resource issue. Right, it could be a food issue. And unless you have some timeline perhaps which I know bodybuilders do and they have a show if you can plan ahead far enough. It sounds like you know taking the most conservative approach that still gets you the result and doesn't impede too much is a good idea. But what about? What about the psychological toll of it? Taking too long, right Like now we're?

Tony: 47:05

getting into dieting here. No, I like it, okay, yeah because, it's a different perspective.

Philip Pape: 47:08

Yeah Right, it's like long and slow or really fast or super fast, like I know.

Jeff Alberts: 47:13

The answer is it depends, because different people respond differently, but it does depend, but I tend to lean more towards being conservative, because when you're conservative, you, in a sense, you have a bigger playbook. If you're giving yourself a short timeline to make something happen, it's almost like you have to be like perfect, here's a good way to think about it. Like if I gave you 30 seconds to tie both shoes probably get the job done pretty easily, right, and your shoes are going to look pretty clean, like you know, okay those bows look really good.

Jeff Alberts: 47:44

But if I said I'm going to give you 10 seconds or maybe eight seconds to tie those two shoes and I want you to make it look really good, chances are it's not going to look that great and the process itself is going to be super stressful yeah.

Philip Pape: 47:56

You're going to fumble through. Yeah, yeah, right.

Jeff Alberts: 47:58

Or or you're piloting an airplane and I give you a mile to get this plane off the ground, but then I gave you a quarter mile. What's the experience going to be like in those two different situations? What are the passengers going to experience? It's going to be a smooth takeoff in a mile. We're building speed up. We're going to get the plane off the ground. We're going to gradually get it to altitude. But quarter mile is like man, you better make sure you didn't eat too close to that takeoff, because you're going to lose your lunch.

Philip Pape: 48:26

And, Jeff, I'll tell you, on a landing it's even worse. I used to fly planes and when I had to do a short runway landing, this is just small Cessnas but like if I had my wife or a friend in there and there was a crosswind you're talking a weird angle and a steep angle and it's just they all got sick. So you a good example.

Jeff Alberts: 48:43

Am I good with the takeoff or do I need to change that up? I?

Philip Pape: 48:46

like to use that one. No, takeoffs are good too, because you need to crank up the throttle and you need to, but you have to have a minimum regardless, for physics you know to like work, but yeah, yeah, it's good. Okay, that's good to hear, because we do sometimes equivocate on all that and it's like, well, whatever works for you, but, like you said, you get more flexibility and options when it's a longer time frame and you're more conservative.

Jeff Alberts: 49:07

When it's short, though, when you're dieting like if it's short in nature and you're trying you know, let's say you're trying to lose 20 pounds in eight weeks, 20 or 10 weeks, even, something like that, that's super fast. Like you're going to have to be very aggressive. So you may think like, okay, I'm going to get this over with sooner, but you're going to suffer more in that time span, versus like I'm going to double up that timeline because now you're going to have a more conservative pace. So what you're actually experiencing is you're not as fatigued, so it's easier to cope in that situation. Versus like, oh gosh, and I'm only eating 1500 calories and I got to do like all these cardio sessions just to get this fat loss off. And then you're training, training stuff.

Jeff Alberts: 49:45

So the end goal is to look the part. It's not if I hit a certain number, it's actually, it's more visual than your bodybuilder or even if it's a cosmetic goal, like you want to look the part. At the end of it you want to have your muscle intact. So I always feel like you're giving yourself more time. And then the life factors too. You know you think about a short timeline. You may not have the luxury of, like, being able to take your wife out for dinner on a Saturday night because, oh, I got up to 1500. I can't do it. I am on so low calories, but I have doubled the timeline. I'm like, well, I'm going to create a buffer, I'm going to take my wife out and I'll have a good time and still make my goals.

Philip Pape: 50:21

Yeah, I love. I love that too, because the longer it is and the more you stretch it out, the more resilience you have against all of those things happening. Because life throws unexpected things along the way, including injuries, including sickness, including something with your kid or your wife or whatever. And to be able to, if you're going at a conservative rate, interrupting that has a much less impact as well. Right, because not dieting for a few days when you're already at a very low, a very conservative deficit, isn't a big deal, but if it's a four or six-week mini cut, all of a sudden one day makes a big difference.

Jeff Alberts: 50:57

Another thing to think about. Let's say you have to do a long-term dieting phase. It doesn't mean you have to be downhill the whole way through no-transcript or less, like how you do things when you're not dieting.

Philip Pape: 51:33

Right, just scaled a little bit.

Jeff Alberts: 51:34

Yeah, exactly. So that's again. It's going back to practicality and sustainability. So sometimes we got to think about okay, how's this going to impact me? When it's all said and done?

Philip Pape: 51:51

And I don't think that far ahead. Yeah, I'm all for that, that flexibility. I inadvertently went into what I I did a podcast about it a while back called my stair step fat loss approach and it was just literally because of what happened to my shoulder and needing to recover several times over the last few months, I got out of my dieting phase. I'm like you know what. This is much better to just go three weeks on one week off. Three weeks on one week, kind of like a stair, you know staircase, and that relief from that week or two of maintenance can be huge.

Jeff Alberts: 52:11

Made a big difference.

Philip Pape: 52:12

yeah, the dieting almost doesn't feel like dieting. It's almost this huge sustainable thing, cool man, all right, so, in the interest of time, I just wanted to ask you if there's anything we didn't cover or a question you wish I had asked from here, and what your answer would be.

Jeff Alberts: 52:23

No, I thought you did great. I recovered a lot.

Philip Pape: 52:27

I'm good. I thought you did great too, man, it was fun Now.

Jeff Alberts: 52:30

I'm like man. I need to learn more about flying now.

Philip Pape: 52:33

I could hook you up with some people that know a lot more than I do, but yeah, it was fun. I stopped when it became the gas became too expensive and I had kids. I was like I can see that I do know some pilots being having worked aerospace industry. So anyway, man, where do you want people to learn about you? Jeff, reach out to you 3dmj underscore.

Jeff Alberts: 52:52

Godfather, go to youtube in 3d muscle journey cool.

Philip Pape: 52:56

I'll put those in the show notes and Jeff's super responsive and, uh, really good content online as well. You wouldn't believe he's he's, whatever age he is. I'm not even going to say a number because you know it doesn't matter, does it?

Jeff Alberts: 53:07

43 plus 10. There you go.

Philip Pape: 53:10

Yeah, all right, man, it's great to have you on. I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Jeff Alberts: 53:14

All right, thanks again.

7 Sleep Quality Metrics You NEED to Track for Faster Gains and Fat Loss (Root Cause Analysis) | Ep 243

Your wearable says you got 8 hours of sleep, but you're still waking up exhausted. Your sleep efficiency looks good, but your energy levels tell a different story.

Learn the 7 key sleep metrics that actually matter for muscle gains and fat loss, plus how to use Root Cause Analysis, an engineering method that reveals the true sources of poor sleep quality hiding beneath your data.

Whether you're dealing with low energy, poor recovery, or sleep numbers that don't match how you feel, this episode gives you a systematic approach to optimize your sleep for better results in the gym.

A special thank you to Aubrey from Wits & Weights Physique University who inspired this episode with her questions about sleep quality metrics!

Main Takeaways:

• The 7 essential sleep metrics and their target ranges for optimal recovery

• A simple but powerful technique to uncover your hidden sleep disruptors

• Why going to the gym at THIS time of day might be your secret weapon for better sleep

• How to test solutions for better sleep based on your personal metrics

The Truth About Sleep Quality Metrics: What Actually Matters for Building Muscle and Losing Fat

Sleep tracking has become increasingly popular among fitness enthusiasts. But with dozens of metrics available on modern wearables, which ones actually impact your gains? Let's cut through the noise and focus on what matters.

The Problem with Traditional Sleep Tracking

Most people focus solely on total sleep time or a generic "sleep score." While getting enough hours is important, it's just the baseline. Your wearable might show 8 hours of sleep, but if you're still waking up exhausted, something's off.

7 Sleep Metrics That Actually Matter

1. Total Sleep Time (7-9 hours)

Don't obsess over hitting exactly 8 hours. Some people thrive on 6.5, while others need 9. The key is consistency and watching how your body responds.

2. Sleep Efficiency (Target: 85%+)

Think of this like your workout efficiency. Are you actually sleeping during your time in bed, or just lying there scrolling through Instagram?

3. Sleep Latency (Target: Under 20 minutes)

This measures how long it takes to fall asleep. If you're consistently taking longer, it's your first clue something's disrupting your sleep system.

4. Wake After Sleep Onset (WASO) (Target: Under 20 minutes)

This reveals hidden stressors keeping you awake throughout the night. High WASO often means compromised recovery.

5. Deep Sleep Duration (Target: 15-20% of total sleep)

This is where the magic happens for muscle recovery. Miss this target, and your gains could suffer.

6. REM Sleep Duration (Target: 20-25% of total sleep)

Critical for mental recovery and decision-making. Low REM sleep might explain those diet-breaking cravings.

7. Sleep Consistency (Target: 30-minute window)

The most underrated metric. Your body craves routine, just like with training and nutrition.

Using Root Cause Analysis to Fix Sleep Issues

Having the numbers is one thing. Knowing what to do with them is another. Here's how to systematically improve your sleep:

Step 1: Identify the Problem Metric

Don't just say "I sleep badly." Pick a specific metric that's off target.

Step 2: Ask "Why" Five Times

Example:

• Why is my sleep efficiency low? Because I'm awake too much.

• Why am I awake? Because I keep waking up.

• Why do I keep waking up? Because my mind races.

• Why does my mind race? Because of work deadlines.

• Why do deadlines bother me? Because I'm not setting boundaries.

Step 3: Create Solutions

Often, the fix has nothing to do with sleep itself. One of my clients improved their deep sleep simply by moving workouts from evening to morning.

Making It Work for You

The key isn't collecting data for its own sake. It's about using that data to make informed decisions about your training, recovery, and lifestyle. Start by tracking these seven metrics, then use Root Cause Analysis to systematically address any issues.

Remember: Good sleep isn't about following generic advice or trying random "hacks." It's about understanding your personal sleep patterns and optimizing them for maximum gains.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's say you just got seven or eight hours of sleep, but you're waking up exhausted, or the numbers on your wearable just don't make sense. Your sleep efficiency looks good, but your energy levels tell a different story. And maybe you're tracking a bunch of metrics, maybe you're not and you're following all the standard advice and the hacks blue light, caffeine, no screen time but something still isn't working with your sleep. Today we're going to get into this what sleep metrics actually matter, what they mean for your recovery and performance, and how to use an engineering approach to identify and fix the real issues disrupting your sleep. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 0:55

Today we're talking about sleep quality. Measuring sleep quality is not as simple as just looking at the total hours or a single score on, say, your Oura ring or your Fitbit or other wearable. When these numbers don't match how we feel, that is when we need a different way, a systematic way to decode what's really happening during those hours in bed. And that's exactly what we're covering in today's episode First, the key metrics that actually matter for measuring sleep quality and then how to use root cause analysis to fix any issues we uncover. Now I want to give a shout out to Aubrey, who is in our group coaching program. She gave us the idea for this topic. I think it is a very critical topic because we all have wearables many of us do and we track all these metrics and it can be confusing and we're like, hey, I'm getting this much deep sleep. What does that mean? What should I be aiming for and how do I link it to how I feel so that I can perform better? And for those of us who want to be lifting and building muscle, we want to be recovered. That can be even more critical. Now, before we dive into this, if you enjoy this show, if you want more content that brings this engineering, this systematic mindset, this data-based way of thinking that allows you to really unlock what's going on with your body, hit the follow button just so you get notified of the next episode, and it will help others find the show as well and ensures that you just won't miss another episode like this.

Philip Pape: 2:21

All right, let's talk about what we are measuring when it comes to sleep quality. You've probably seen dozens of metrics on your wearable device. They're all a little bit different, they all have different levels of accuracy, and what I want to do today is just distill it down to the seven metrics that matter most, and I'm going to give you a target for them. So this is a very prescriptive episode. The first metric is total sleep time. Now, this is the baseline.

Philip Pape: 2:49

This is where you want to get that seven to nine hours of sleep and the thing is, this number doesn't really mean anything without context, and what I mean is you could get consistently six and a half hours of sleep but be pretty refreshed, or you could be getting a very a half hours of sleep but be pretty refreshed, or you could be getting a very restless eight hours of sleep. However, if you are getting far fewer than this range so if you're getting six or less on a regular basis then that could be a problem regardless. In other words, forget about the rest of the metrics until you fix that, even though those other metrics can help. You really have the low-hanging fruit to go after here, which is hours per sleep. I mean hours, excuse me, hours per night. Now, I know many of us. It's very difficult to achieve eight or nine hours, unless your schedule allows for it, or you're retired or some situation like that. But everyone has kind of that sweet spot where they know that it's just too restricted in their sleep and others, you know, six and a half, seven hours, maybe more than enough. It always helps to experiment with more. So anyway, let's start. There's the baseline getting enough sleep. I think you knew that, but it's one of the seven metrics, all right, metrics.

Philip Pape: 3:58

Metric number two is sleep efficiency. This is the percentage of time in bed that you actually sleep. And so think about, from the moment you lay down, put your head on the pillow assuming you're done, you know, doing something active, like reading a book, something like that and then up until the time you wake up and get out of bed. We want 85% of that time to be actually sleeping right. Think of this, like your, you know your workout efficiency right. Are you spending your gym time training or are you scrolling on your phone? So I'm a big fan of efficiency and I think you are. So are you actually sleeping? And that is gonna be another indicator of are you actually making the most of the time in bed? Are you setting yourself up for success ahead of time outside the bedroom, before you get in to give you that high level of efficiency? All right.

Philip Pape: 4:47

Metric number three is sleep latency. This is how long it takes to fall asleep, and ideally this is under 20 minutes, under 20 minutes. Now, I know personally it takes me about five, 10 minutes to fall asleep. Whether that's good or not for an individual, it depends, obviously, if you're just crashing because you're so exhausted day after day, that's a different thing. But conversely, if you have insomnia or you're being kept awake for whatever reason, that is your first clue that something might be off with your sleep system. All right, sleep latency under 20 minutes.

Philip Pape: 5:21

The fourth metric is wake after sleep onset or WASO. I don't know if people pronounce that, but wake after sleep onset is the total time that you spend awake after you initially fall asleep. Let me repeat that again it's the time, it's the awake time throughout the night after you've initially fallen asleep. And if you have like an aura ring or another wearable that shows you a little graph throughout the night with the different types of sleep and you'll see at the very top usually is higher number than that reveals that you have something stressing you out that keeps waking you up. You know, as long as it's not your spouse kicking you and waking you up and it's internal to you. That's what it reveals.

Philip Pape: 6:15

All right, let's continue with the fifth metric, which is deep sleep duration. Now, this is where the magic happens for recovery physical recovery, cognitive recovery or no, pardon me, that's physical recovery. The next one is cognitive, physical recovery. That's deep sleep, which you know, for those of us lifting, where we have lots of stress on our muscular system during the day, we really want that and we want to target 15 to 20% of total sleep time. So you notice a pattern here 20, 20, 20. It's kind of a good number to remember. We want at least 15 to 20%.

Philip Pape: 6:52

Sometimes, when you look at deep sleep on your graph and you see, oh, I slept eight hours and and an hour and a half or two hours was deep sleep, you might think, oh, that doesn't seem very much. Is that okay? Yeah, it's okay, it's totally normal to be. If you're at least 15%, it's probably okay. If you're not hitting that number, then your training recovery is gonna be compromised. And that's where, like with my clients when they submit their biofeedback to me, and their recovery and soreness is higher than it should be given, than it should be given all the other variables, given their food and everything else.

Philip Pape: 7:22

We look at sleep quality and even if they're getting enough sleep, there could be a sleep quality issue preventing deep sleep. The sixth metric, number six, is REM sleep duration. Now this is for mental recovery and again, here's a little bit higher. We want to aim for 20 to 25%, but again, the magic number 20 is a nice theme here, right? Deep sleep is 15 to 20. Rem sleep is 20 to 25% of your total sleep time. So REM should be a little bit longer than deep sleep. And this directly impacts your focus in your decision-making, which again translates to everything you do, including your training. But also you know how emotionally susceptible you might be to decision fatigue, with your diet, for example. So if you're worried about cravings and over-consuming food, oftentimes a lack of sleep and low sleep quality is what leads to these higher cravings, a very well-established link in the literature.

Philip Pape: 8:21

And then the final metric and you're probably thinking is Philip going to mention this as a metric is sleep consistency, and I think this is the most important in a way, assuming you have your bases covered, like the hours of sleep, I think consistency, the variation in your sleep and wake times or the lack thereof, right, the very low variation where you are going to bed and waking up within about the same 30 minute window every single day, including weekends. This might be the most underrated metric of all, and you can extrapolate that idea to anything you're doing related to your body. It has to do with our rhythms, circadian rhythms, ultradian rhythms, the idea that the body relaxes and responds very well homeostatically and metabolically to consistency consistent eating patterns and eating windows, consistent amounts of food, consistent training, consistent moving and, of course, consistent sleep. All right Now. And, of course, consistent sleep, all right Now. This is where most sleep advice stops right, like you've got your numbers, you know your targets, but then what do you actually do when they're not where they should be? And I think with wearables, that's the trap that we get into. I have an aura ring and I love looking at the data, but then it's like what do you do with it? Same thing with our training, with our nutrition. It's great to track. I highly encourage tracking, but oftentimes people say, well, I tracked my calories and I didn't lose weight. Well, tracking doesn't do that for you. Tracking just gives you the information to be informed from which you can make decisions and for sleep.

Philip Pape: 9:55

This is where root cause analysis comes in, which is the engineering framework I am linking with in this episode. So root cause analysis kind of what it sounds like, right, it's a method engineers use to dig beneath the surface level symptoms and find the true, the root source, the root cause of the problem. Right, not just the surface thing that you put a bandaid on, but the actual root cause. It's kind of like when we have pain in our joints and you think that it's because you're doing a specific lift, but in reality it's some other lifestyle modification or movement pattern you're doing that's leading down the chain to that problem. Okay, so let's apply root cause analysis to your sleep quality.

Philip Pape: 10:41

So step one is finding your specific problem using the metrics that we just discussed, the seven metrics. Don't just say, oh, I sleep badly or I have poor sleep. We need to identify exactly which ones are off target. Maybe your sleep efficiency is low, maybe your deep sleep percentage is below 15%, it's, you know, 10% or very low. So that's step one, of course, is just identifying the information and which ones are an issue. Step two is using what engineers call the five wise technique, and I think I did an episode specifically on this in the past, but it's a very common framework I use with myself and with clients all the time, and you can use it any day, for any issue, and it's super effective.

Philip Pape: 11:21

Okay, and here's how it goes. Let's say that your sleep efficiency is only 75%, right, instead of 80. What's the target for that? 85%? I'm going crazy here. So let's say it's only 75%. So you would ask yourself a why? Question. Why is my sleep efficiency low? Because I'm spending too much time awake in bed. Why is my sleep efficiency low Because I'm spending too much time awake in bed? Why am I awake so much? Because I keep waking up through the night. Why do I keep waking up? Because my mind starts racing when I do. Why does my mind race? Because I'm worried about work deadlines. Why am I worried about deadlines? Because I'm not setting clear boundaries with my time, and so you can keep asking why it doesn't have to just be five, you can go three or you can go eight, whatever gets you to the root cause. And notice what happened there. We started with a sleep metric. Right, our sleep efficiency is low. Okay, that's not the problem. The problem is a lifestyle factor that we need to address, related to setting boundaries with your time, better time management, whatever it is, and with fitness and nutrition. We often find that's the case Like it has nothing to do with the fitness and nutrition. I mean almost never.

Philip Pape: 12:32

I just talked to a new client yesterday. We did our onboarding call and immediately two or three of these types of problems or challenges came up, such as, you know, skipping workouts, and so I asked why, well, sometimes I run out of time. Well, why? Well, I try to go in the afternoon and then work gets late. Why, why, why. And so it came down to why don't we just work out of the morning, right? Or why don't we work out three days instead of four? You know, you can get down to the real thing so that you no longer have the excuse, and it might reveal connections that you might never have considered right.

Philip Pape: 13:07

Another one she came up with was meal planning. She says I don't have time for meal prep. I said why, well, meal prep takes like four hours. Well, why? Well, I'm trying to make all these fancy recipes and, you know, prepackage them. Oh, okay, so then we can get to the root cause of hey, how about you just get a family package of chicken breasts and a giant thing of green beans and cook them in like half an hour on a Sunday, and then you have your lunch for the whole week. By the way, do you like eating the same thing every day? Oh yeah, no problem. Great, perfect solution for you, right? Okay?

Philip Pape: 13:37

So that's step two is doing the five why technique to get at the root cause. And so that's step two is doing the 5-Y technique to get at the root cause. And then step three is creating the solution tree. So you're going to map out the connections from your root cause, because it could be multiple, all right, so it could be multiple. So you're doing your 5-Y and then you're doing it a few more times and then you can identify the easiest place to make a change, right?

Philip Pape: 14:03

So in the example I gave you, setting better work boundaries might have a bigger impact on sleep than taking another supplement, right? Like I just need melatonin, or buying a better mattress or wearing a sleep mask. Like there's, you know, uh, different connections where you can make changes, and some changes for you will be more low hanging fruit than others, and then it could be something else for someone else. And then the last step, of course, is test it out and verify that the change actually helps. If you make one change at a time and then you track guess what? The exact same metrics we just talked about, which you're already tracking, you'll see the difference. You'll see the difference and I can give you a couple simple examples for me. Right, if I drink alcohol, I know my HRV is going to be off, my resting heart rate is going to be high, my resilience score goes down and I don't feel as well rested. It all links together. It all links together. If I don't wear a sleep mask, sometimes my sleep quality is lower because of all the blue light leaking in from, like our night lights and other lights in the house. And you just start to make these connections.

Philip Pape: 15:04

Now here's something fascinating that I've noticed working with clients the solution to poor sleep often has nothing to do with sleep itself. Right, I think I've kind of alluded to this a couple of times with my other examples I had. I had a client whose sleep percentage was really low, like consistently low, and we just did this simple why technique, the five whys, and we discovered, okay, he's training close, too close to bedtime. I had just assumed he was training around four because he had been training in the afternoon, but it was actually getting closer and closer to bedtime and then his core temperature was going up. His cortisol was, you know, getting thrown off. And again, this is not a cortisol is a root of all problems, issue whatsoever. Cortisol is just a downstream indicator of stuff. Um, and so again, guess what? We moved his workouts to the mornings. It instantly improved his sleep metrics.

Philip Pape: 15:49

By the way, that is one of my favorite hacks to train in the morning. Don't tell me that you're not a morning person. Think about it and and see if it. Try it out. That's what I would say. Try it out because it has so many benefits. It allows you to manage your time because you get it out of the way. Now your time is yours for the rest of the day. It's gives you a big energy boost in the morning. It actually helps with your stress and your cortisol throughout the day by taking care of that active, pent up energy in the morning. Um, you sleep better when you train early in the day, and then it's often easier to manage your diet because now you've already accounted for the training window and now the rest of the day kind of falls in line. It's predictable, right. So there's a lot of benefits.

Philip Pape: 16:27

Okay, that was a side of a side thing, but I think it is one important way to potentially improve sleep for a lot of people. So you probably know that I love combining these precise measurements with systematic problem solving. The numbers tell us what's happening, but the engineering approach shows us why, and then that is where the solutions emerge. All right. So measuring sleep quality, it's not just collecting data for its own sake. Right, we want to use the data in an intelligent way to improve your recovery, your performance, your health, your cravings, your fat loss, your muscle building, all of that fun stuff. And if you combine those any metrics, really, you can apply this to your food tracking, to your biofeedback, to your lifting progress. You combine it with simple root cause analysis, like we talked about here.

Philip Pape: 17:13

I literally gave you the whole framework, the five why technique. It's not that hard. You can, number one, know exactly which aspects of the thing in this case sleep need attention. Number two, you could identify the true source of any issues. And then, number three, make targeted changes and at the end of the day, you are in control. It is fully under your control to improve your sleep, and it's not just following like the list of hacks. Here's 10 hacks to improve your sleep. It's not that. It's understanding your personal sleep patterns and then systematically optimizing them.

Philip Pape: 17:42

All right again, if you enjoyed today's episode, if you want more of this type of content, please hit the follow button. Support me by doing that. That would be amazing. I get to see how many followers we have and then it helps others find the show. It helps with the algorithm and you can reach more people who can benefit from these things and also share this episode with anybody you feel is struggling with sleep. Save, bookmark, add it to a playlist, whatever, so that you get it in the future, because I think the information here is among the most valuable that I've ever shared when it comes to sleep and will help you tremendously in one of the things that will unlock tons of recovery and gains in the gym and success with your diet. All right until next time, keep using those wits, lifting some weights and remember, sometimes the best solution is hiding in your own data just waiting to be discovered. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

You Can Build Muscle FASTER Than We Thought (Without More Fat Gain) | Ep 242

Can you build muscle faster than we thought... WITHOUT gaining more fat as you bulk? What if the current advice to on rate of gain is actually holding you back?

Philip (@witsandweights) shares groundbreaking research that shows you can gain muscle faster than you thought - without getting bogged down by excess fat. He breaks down the latest science into simple, actionable tips for beginners, intermediates, and advanced lifters. Whether you're just starting or a seasoned lifter aiming to push past your current limits, Philip shares practical tips on tailoring your muscle-building pace based on your experience level. Tune in for a fresh perspective on building the body you want!

📲 For the exact steps to set up your next bulking phase for substantial muscle gains, download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint (updated for 2025)  or go to witsandweights.com/free.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:11 Traditional bulking advice and why it’s outdated
2:06 Philip’s muscle-building program update
3:49 Why are recommendations changing?
5:41 Gain faster now
10:41 For optimal muscle gain
14:29 Tone up smart and assess your training experience
18:30 Determining your training level and rate of gain
20:23 Consistent progression and monitoring results
21:39 Importance of quality nutrition
23:37 Nutrient partitioning abilities

Episode resources:

• FREE Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint (over 25 pages!)

• Greg Nuckols Article – How Fast Should You Gain Weight When Bulking?

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS – Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

Related episode:

• The Hardgainers Guide to Outsmarting Your Metabolism and Maximizing Muscle Gain

New Science Shows You Can Build Muscle Faster (Without Getting Fat)

For years, I've told clients to gain around 0.2-0.3% of body weight per week when building muscle. This wasn't just my recommendation – it was the standard evidence-based advice for minimizing fat gain during a bulk. But science evolves, and new research has completely changed our understanding of optimal rates of muscle gain.

The Evolution of Muscle-Building Science

Recent studies show we can gain muscle faster than previously thought, with less fat accumulation than we feared. This is game-changing news for anyone trying to build their ideal physique, whether you're just starting or you've been lifting for years.

Why the Old Recommendations Were Too Conservative

The previous guidelines were based on limited research – just two key studies. Now, with five well-designed studies examining different rates of weight gain, we have a much clearer picture of how the body responds to various bulking approaches.

The New Science of Muscle Gain

Here's what the latest research reveals about optimal rates of muscle gain:

• Beginners: Can gain up to 0.5-0.8% body weight per week with minimal fat gain

• Intermediates: Can effectively gain 0.3-0.5% body weight per week

• Advanced: Should stay in the range of 0.15-0.35% body weight per week

Three Major Insights About Building Muscle

1. Training Experience Matters More Than We Thought

Your training status significantly influences how aggressively you can bulk:

• Beginners have incredible muscle-building potential

• Intermediates can handle more aggressive gains than previously believed

• Advanced lifters still need more precise approaches

2. The Sweet Spot is Higher Than Previously Believed

The body is more capable of using extra nutrients for muscle growth than we realized, especially early in your training career. This means you can push the rate of gain higher without excessive fat accumulation.

3. Better Muscle-to-Fat Ratio Than Expected

At moderate rates of gain, about 70-75% of weight gained can be lean mass. Even with faster gains, fat accumulation isn't as dramatic as once feared. This completely changes the old belief that "gaining too fast means it's all fat."

How to Implement the New Recommendations

Assess Your Training Level

1. Beginner: Still adding weight to lifts almost every session

2. Intermediate: Making consistent but slower progress

3. Advanced: Progress comes in small increments over time

Calculate Your Target Rate

Use these guidelines based on your experience level:

• Beginners: Start at 0.5% body weight/week

• Intermediates: Aim for 0.3-0.4% body weight/week

• Advanced: Target 0.15-0.35% body weight/week

Monitor These Key Metrics

• Daily weight (use weekly averages)

• Training performance

• Body measurements

• Progress photos

• Energy and recovery markers

The Bottom Line

Being too conservative with your rate of gain might actually be holding back your muscle growth. While you still need to train hard and eat properly, don't be afraid to push the envelope a bit more than previously recommended. Your body is smarter at nutrient partitioning than we once believed – especially when you provide the right training stimulus.

Want to implement these new recommendations? Download my completely revised Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been following the standard advice of gaining weight slowly and methodically to build muscle, including advice that I've given on this show, you might be too conservative. New research has changed our understanding of how quickly you can gain muscle while keeping fat gain minimized, and I mean quite completely changed, because what we thought was optimal might actually be cutting your gains in half. Today, I'm breaking down the latest science that's forcing us to rethink what we knew about the rate of building muscle and why. This is actually great news for anyone trying to pack on size. Whether you're a beginner who can gain faster than ever, or an experienced lifter who needs to find your sweet spot to avoid constant bulking and cutting cycles, this episode is going to help you hone in on the most efficient physique building approach. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:03

I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're exploring something that challenges what many of us, including myself, have been teaching for years about building muscle. You're probably tracking your calories, your macros. You're aiming to get just the right rate of gain, probably around a quarter pound per week, maybe a little more, something like two to three pounds per month, because that's what everyone says is optimal. I've even said before 0.2 to 0.3% of your body weight a week is optimal and, yes, you're going to make progress. However, you do it when you're in a surplus, but it might be slower than you want. And now you notice others making gains faster. Maybe you feel like you're shortchanging yourself because it doesn't seem like you're putting it all out there. And the new research that we've seen over the last few years suggests exactly that that we can gain muscle faster than previously thought, with less concern about fat gain than we once believed, and this changes pretty much everything we knew about building muscle and how fast and how large our surplus should be. Now, speaking of changing everything, I've revised my free muscle building nutrition blueprint to reflect the new findings, the new rates of gain, and I separate it by aggressiveness depending on how comfortable you are gaining weight and gaining some fat along for the ride as you build that muscle. And if you want your free copy of my muscle building nutrition blueprint, just use the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free and it's updated and it's a very detailed guide with not only the rate of gain, but it walks you step by step through the process of building muscle. It gives you an example of how I applied this to a past bulk, which, of course, if I did it again, I might actually go aggressively. And just so you know, I'm recording this as I've recently started a new bulk, which I will be reporting out on, probably in a few months, only because I want to see how well my new program goes as well. I'm running a 19 week program that has a base phase and then a peaking phase to push up my main lifts, which I haven't done in a while, and I'm combining that with the bulk and I'm going at what I would call a moderately aggressive rate based on what I'm going to share today.

Philip Pape: 3:14

So let me break this down into three parts. First, we're going to look at why the recommendations are changing based on new research. I've said in the past you should never be locked into a specific finding, whether it's from one study or 10 studies, because there could always be new information that enlightens us as to more precise, accurate approach, and that is exactly the case here. Then, in the second segment, I'm going to explain exactly what this means for you and your muscle building goals. And then, finally, I'm going to show you how to put this into practice based on your experience level, your level of training advancement. So let's talk about how our understanding has evolved, because this is super important.

Philip Pape: 3:53

Why are my recommendations changing? Why are the recommendations in the industry changing? And some very well-respected individuals out there, like the guys at Stronger by Science, for example and if you've listened to me for any length of time, you've heard me tell you, as a listener and clients, to gain around 0.2 to 0.3% of your body weight per week when trying to build muscle. And this wasn't just my recommendation, it was the standard advice based on the best available evidence at the time, including some meta-analysis, one by Dr Herrick Helms et al. I've had people on the show talk about that and it was in all of my guidance, even to clients as well, because it's the best thing we knew and everyone's worried about gaining too much fat, so we don't want to push it too aggressively and do the old dreamer bulk right. Just the seafood diet, see it and eat it. But you know, science evolves and sometimes it evolves dramatically and sometimes it catches up to some of the kernels of truth that we know about from the bro science, from the guys who've truly packed on some muscle and I'll be honest, you know I have a long way to go.

Philip Pape: 4:56

I've been doing this seriously now for four or five years but I want to say, like, from the nutrition side, probably about three years, and I've learned a lot personally. I've helped hundreds of clients and listeners go through this process and doing it successfully, and yet still we can learn and do it better. So we've gone from having just two key studies on this topic. This is the pitfall of relying on science too much is when we don't have quite enough information out there compared to the decades and hundreds and thousands of anecdotes which in some way count as their own evidence. So we've gone from having two studies to now having five well-designed studies.

Philip Pape: 5:34

Look at how different rates of weight gain affect muscle growth and fat gain, and the results are changing what we thought we knew. And I want to give credit where it's due because this was recently detailed in an excellent article by Greg Knuckles at Macrofactor. You know how much I love those guys. He was on the show in the past and he's just a phenomenal writer, but he's really good at distilling a lot of this complex information into an article that's still detailed enough to give you all the key points and graphs and comparisons. And their team. They analyzed these five studies and it kind of opened my eyes about how we need to update our approach as well, and that's why I'm doing this episode and so I've linked to that article in the show notes and you can check that out firsthand and see where it all comes from.

Philip Pape: 6:18

But to get into specifics, a recent study published in the Journal of Functional Morphology and Kinesiology found something pretty remarkable because in relatively untrained lifters which is a good place to start because they can change fairly quickly gaining up to about a pound or a half percent of body weight per week led to large increases in fat-free mass, with minimal to no increase in fat mass. And if we think about how our body is composed, when we talk about body composition, there is muscle mass and there is everything else which includes fat, but not just fat. And the way they typically measure these is just creating a binary buckets, you know, fat-free mass and fat mass, which is pretty helpful in our context because a lot of us really care about are we gaining too much fat when we gain muscle? But we also want to see that we're gaining the muscle and what the ratio is. So one pound a week is significantly faster than what we previously thought, even for newer lifters. I mean, I'll say it's on the cusp and you're going to find out. You're going to see here that the recommendations for intermediate and advanced lifters are actually a lot more aggressive than we thought as well. So where it gets interesting for those people, for experienced lifters and by experienced I mean you've been training hard for at least six to nine months Now you've moved into late novice, early intermediate and your propensity to gain muscle is just a little bit less than where it was at the beginning or anything more advanced than that.

Philip Pape: 7:46

The research shows that faster rates of weight gain might help increase muscle growth even a bit more, but too much, and you're still going to primarily just increase fat gain. So that's where there's consistency with the previous literature to an extent, but the numbers have just shifted to be more aggressive. So, for example, in a very advanced lifter, when gaining about 0.4% of their body mass a week, about 60 to 65% of the weight gained was fat-free mass, so that's almost two-thirds not as fat, which is more than I thought would happen. I used to say it was around 50-50, right, and any more than that. It just gets worse. But now we're saying it's two-thirds muscle or two-thirds fat-free mass to one-third fat.

Philip Pape: 8:32

Okay, in an advanced trainee at 0.4% a week, which, just so you know, is right about the rate I'm going at right now. I used to hit it at around 0.25, 0.3, and now I'm going at 0.4. I consider myself an intermediate lifter and I'm going more aggressive Pretty cool, right, and I know that that could. Then it gives me a lot of excitement because, first of all, I get to eat a lot more food, which is awesome, In fact, almost to the point where it could be uncomfortable, because I do still eat a lot of whole foods and fiber and sometimes I feel too full whole foods and fiber and sometimes I feel too full. So there's that hard gaining piece. I did a whole episode about that in the past and I'm going to link to that in the show notes as well.

Philip Pape: 9:11

Anyhow, if we take that rate of gain 0.4%, let's say we slow that down to more like 0.16, I think was the exact number. The amount of fat-free mass that these advanced lifters gained as a percentage of the total weight gained was 85%, so a vast majority of it being muscle. When they're going at 0.15% Now, 0.15% is roughly on the low end of whatI used to recommend anyway, like the lowest of the low end Kind of makes sense. So what this means is simple We've been too conservative with our recommendations, especially for beginners and intermediates and that's probably the vast majority of people listening to be honest Because once you're advanced, you kind of have things dialed in and understand how your body responds anyway, and it's going to take longer between. It's going to take longer to do everything you know to gain muscle mass, to gain strength, and so it makes sense that your rate of gain would slow down. So all of this is excellent news because it means that you might be able to build muscle faster than you thought, without packing on unnecessary fat. So now you understand why recommendations have changed. And again, go check out the article. You can check out the research study that I just mentioned specifically, but it's mentioned in the article, so I would rely on that and their citations to see all of the studies that are being drawn upon. And now I want to use this research to tell us what it means about building muscle, and this is where it gets really interesting. So this research has revealed three insights that I want to talk about, Three major insights about building muscle.

Philip Pape: 10:40

First, your training experience matters potentially even more than we realized. Beginners have an incredible capacity for muscle growth. They can gain up to 0.8% body weight per week with minimal fat gain. Like those are fat loss numbers. In other words, like that's the rate of body weight loss I would be recommending for fat gain. Usually, when we talk about muscle gain, we talk about a fraction of that, like a half or a quarter of that, and what we're saying is no, you can actually crank it up to like 0.8% and even potentially 1% of your body weight per week if you're total new and you're willing to gain a little extra fat for the chance of building a lot more muscle.

Philip Pape: 11:24

And then we have intermediate lifters and they're not far behind now. They have the ability to gain, say, 0.3 to 0.5% per week effectively and still gain a ton of that as muscle mass. We're talking a half a percent a week. So if you gain let's say you're an average, slightly bigger guy and you're 200 pounds, just for easy numbers that's a pound a week. Right, that's a pound a week. So that's like a little over four pounds a month, which means in six months you'd be gaining like 25 pounds.

Philip Pape: 11:50

Okay, and 25 pounds amounts to what does that come out to be? Over what 12.5% increase? And I used to recommend anywhere from seven to 10%, and this is suggesting we can go up to like well, 12.5% over a six month period. You can bulk for less, you can bulk for longer, and that's going to change the total weight gained, but the percentage of that gained as muscle mass should still be pretty high, All right. And then we have advanced lifters who still need even more precision and they should stay in the range of anywhere from 0.15 to 0.35% body weight per week.

Philip Pape: 12:23

And I realize I'm throwing a lot of numbers at you. If you go to the Macrofactor article, you'll see tables that give you ranges and I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you use Macrofactor the app itself, it's actually designed around percentage gain per week. Use my code, WITSANDWEIGHTS, try it for free for a couple of weeks and I'm sure you'll be hooked and you'll want to use it forever. Again, link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 12:45

It sounds like I'm promoting a bunch of stuff here, but it's all connected, so beginners can go up to a percent or maybe 0.8%, intermediates up to half a percent and advanced maybe 0.35%. That's the first major insight from this research. But there's more to understand about how this changes our approach, because second is that we've discovered the sweet spot, for muscle growth is also higher than we previously thought kind of that optimal number and the research shows that your body's more capable of using the extra nutrients for muscle growth, especially earlier in your training career and we used to think a little bit slower. More of a lean gain was always better and we know that's not true now, which is great. It's liberating. It means you have a lot more flex pun intended to eat more and gain more muscle without being as worried about gaining a ton of fat.

Jenny: 13:35

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement, for all of our help. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 14:21

And then third, and this might be the most exciting finding that the ratio of muscle to fat gain is much better than we feared. I alluded to that earlier. If you gain at one of these moderate rates which is now, is more aggressive than we thought up to three quarters of the weight gained can be lean mass. Now, a little bit of that might be some fluid mass, glycogen going on, but still that's a huge ratio of muscle. I've seen this. You know there's a sanity check. A sniff test on this is with my clients. We track a bunch of metrics. We track body measurements. I do some Navy formula based body fat percentage measurements and I also calculate how much lean mass versus fat you've gained or lost during a muscle building phase. And for my clients who have gone at a more conservative rate, like we used to recommend, it was often well over two thirds lean mass and I always thought, wow, this must just be because they're so new at it. Because many of my clients they've been training, but they haven't maybe been training effectively. So we get them training for strength using the right type of periodization, using the right stimulus, with volume and intensity, and they just get cranky. Their lifts go up, they start building a ton of muscle. So it makes sense. But now I'm thinking, oh, is it actually because we just can go more aggressively and still gain a bunch of muscle and it not be very much fat and let's not worry as much about the scale going up? We actually want that to happen. We want to be well over that threshold and now this liberates us to really push it and not worry. That's what I think is pretty cool. So even when we push the rate of gain higher, fat accumulation isn't nearly as dramatic as we once thought, and this completely changes the old belief that you know, if you gain too fast, it's all fat. Having said that, there is a rate of gain that some people would be going way too aggressively. You know, like one and a half, two percent a week is probably then at the point where you're just going to gain a bunch of fat, and that's like the dreamer book, right. But the evidence doesn't support the fear of too much fat gain in a fairly wide range now. So we've covered why the old recommendations were too conservative, what the new science shows Now, how do you actually apply this to your own training and nutrition?

Philip Pape: 16:33

And it's pretty simple how do we take this and turn it into your results? I think it starts with assessing. How do we take this and turn it into your results? I think it starts with assessing honestly, like very honestly, your training experience. All right, you're probably a beginner and I have air quotes here if you're still adding weight to your lifts almost every session so that's session to session. But honestly, if you're able to go up every week, you're probably still in a late beginner, early intermediate stage. So if you're able to go up every week, you're probably still in a late beginner, early intermediate stage. So if you're making progress, but it's less consistent and, again, progress is very fluid here because it's not just weight on the bar, it's also your volume, your periodization. If you use some sort of wave type programming, you kind of know who you are if you're not just cranking up weight on the bar super quickly.

Philip Pape: 17:21

So I'm in that situation where I'm not just going to increase weight every session and not necessarily every week. Sometimes I increase sets or reps as a form of adding more work, and there's different reasons for that, outside the scope of today's podcast, different reasons for that outside the scope of today's podcast. But I consider myself intermediate, but still with a huge propensity to grow muscle, and so I'm going to go that moderately aggressive like that. 0.4%. Maybe I could even go more aggressive than that. But the amount of calories required then become actually a little bit of a sustainability issue for me, just like when you cut too quickly and it's not sustainable. I know we're going into the holiday season here. I can only put down so much food at each meal, just how I am, and to go significantly past say 3,200 or 3,500 calories a day would be not that sustainable for me. I could do it, and it's an excuse if I said I couldn't, but that's part of the equation.

Philip Pape: 18:20

So 0.4%, anyway, beginner and immediate. You got to assess where you are and if you're advanced, you know who you are. I mean, I'm not going to try to define that for you. You know who you are, so let's talk about selecting your approach then based on that. If you're a beginner, I would start with something like a half a percent body weight gain per week. If you're a little bit worried about too much fat gain, okay, that's a pound a week for a 200 pound person, but you can push it up to 0.7, 0.8% and be probably fine and you're going to get even more gains. If you're intermediate, you might aim for about 0.3 to 0.4%. So this is like on top of the optimal range that I used to talk about. By a percent or so, I mean 0.1% or so, so that you can push it there. And that's where I'm going 0.4%, and then, if you're advanced, you're going to stay more conservative 0.2, 0.3, which is ironically the old optimal. So everything's been shifted up and it's not just about the rate of gain. So this is important. You have to monitor more than just the scale. We're going to monitor how is your progression in the gym strength, numbers, volume, sets, recovery.

Philip Pape: 19:22

Here's my premise for lifting and programming. Your program and your approach and your recovery should be set up where you are not missing reps period. Whether you're doing a very beginner program like starting strength, or a more advanced program, intermediate, you know, four or five day split, it should be set up and you should be doing things in advance so that you're not missing reps. I don't like the idea that some people have that I'm just going to push for some goal weight and I might fall short, but I stretched myself and that'll be an indicator of progress. That is not objective and if you are constantly failing reps, it tells me that you are overreaching or you are under-recovering with your program. It is not structured appropriately for you and if you're wondering about all this, reach out to me. I'll help you out. I'll help you identify either a standard template or program out there that's probably appropriate given your training age and capacity, or we can talk about how you might tweak a program in a custom way to work for you. So you shouldn't be missing reps right.

Philip Pape: 20:24

Are your lifts consistently progressing the way you want them? You should be taking measurements and progress photos right and tracking your various circumference levels in your body, fat and body composition to make sure they're on track where you want. I have a physique tracker in the Wits and Weights Physique University that everyone uses. So from day one when you go through onboarding, you get that and it shows you how to track all of these measurements. And then it does all the calculations for you and it tells you you are gaining lean mass versus fat at this rate and then you can tell okay, am I doing something that I shouldn't be? Am I not training hard enough or appropriately, or am I eating too much? Or maybe I'm low on protein. There could be something going on that you can tell.

Philip Pape: 21:05

Track your biofeedback, like your energy, your recovery between sessions, your DOMS right, your delayed onset, muscle soreness. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. It's an indicator of under recovery, right? Your sleep, your digestion, your hunger, all of those things as well. All these factors tell you whether you're gaining in the right way, at the right rate for you. So we've talked about rates of gain, we've talked about monitoring progress.

Philip Pape: 21:32

There's one more piece that's crucial to making this work besides lifting consistently. There's one more piece that's crucial to making this work besides lifting consistently, and that is your nutrition quality right. Just because you can gain faster doesn't mean you should throw nutrition out the window, and it's very common, when you have all these calories you want to hit, that you start throwing in a ton more processed foods. You kind of start eating a little more randomly. Your meal timing gets thrown off right. Training days versus off days start to look quite different. You struggle on off days to even eat enough. There's a lot of these issues and we've got to have the principles in place. There's, of course, protein. It shouldn't be that hard to get enough protein when you're eating a lot more calories. You should have already set that up before you went into a muscle building phase. Anyway, of 0.7, one gram per pound body weight of protein shouldn't be hard when the calories are up. And then you still need quality carbs to fuel your training.

Philip Pape: 22:22

Now there's always lots of debates about carbohydrates. My position is that there's no harm in adding carbs. There could be harm in being too low in carbs, especially when you're building muscle. That's the way I like to say it. I'm not going to say low carb is going to harm you or hold you back. I'm just saying that you should try it out and see how carbs help, not just with performance, energy and recovery, but one thing that doesn't get talked about enough the anti-catabolic nature of carbs, the ability of carbs to prevent the breakdown of muscle tissue and make everything else you're doing serve you better, like the protein and the lifting right. It's just. It removes a potential hindrance by increasing your carbs. And then, of course, the balance of your macro is just to make it work, the healthy fats and all that fun stuff to support everything you're doing, which, again, shouldn't be a problem with all those calories. But the key thing with quality is still have the nutrients coming in, still have the fiber, but then you have to manage your timing and you have to manage your frequency so that you don't feel stuffed or uncomfortable and it's sustainable. All of that still applies. All right, now we're about to wrap this up.

Philip Pape: 23:29

I do want to share something that I discovered while reviewing the research. That actually changed how I think about muscle gain. So you remember those studies that showed really high rates of lean mass gains in beginners. What they actually revealed wasn't just about the rate of gain, it was your body's nutrient partitioning abilities when the right conditions are present. And one way to think about that is simply this Remember when you didn't lift weights. Remember when you were less active.

Philip Pape: 24:01

You were afraid of gaining weight. Probably you were afraid and it happens to people on the holidays every year you just gradually overconsume. You're probably consuming a lot more than you think you are and it's a lot more than your body even needs when you're not that active and you're not utilizing those nutrients in any productive way other than energy storage, meaning fat. Now you're completely flipping that on its head to say I'm doing stuff lifting weights, training hard and being active that actually use the nutrients and energy in a productive way for the first time in my life, and your body is super adaptive to that. It's adapting how it uses the food coming in, such that you're a completely different person than the version of you that wasn't active or lifting. So when you do this and I see this with clients all the time it's so incredible and it's so amazing and even my own personal journey has borne this out I don't fear gaining weight anymore. I can't possibly fear it, because every time I gain weight it's combined with the things that use those nutrients and I build muscle, even if some fat comes along for the ride.

Philip Pape: 25:10

I know it's super easy to cut fat after that, and it will be for you too, if you take this approach right. Your after that and it will be for you too, if you take this approach right your strength will skyrocket. Your body composition will change. Your body composition will improve from when you were gaining weight in the past and not lifting, but even potentially when you were gaining weight too slowly. And so ladies not just men, a lot of men I talk to have no problem with the concept of like, okay, I'm going to gain weight, maybe some fat, that's fine.

Philip Pape: 25:34

I sense the fear more in women and this is just a generalization but for some of you women who just need to spend time building muscle, you might have to do it even more aggressively than you thought, and it's going to result in weight gain, but for a purpose. A purpose that's going to make you leaner, stronger, more fit, more capable, and then you could just cut the fat, and you won't have to cut it as much as you think, because you're going to have all this extra muscle and you can walk around at a higher scale weight, you know, like a badass, looking great, carrying extra weight, eating more food Isn't that what we want, right? So the increased food, combined with progressive loading, creates such a strong muscle building stimulus that your body is going to preferentially use all those extra calories, the vast majority of them for muscle growth. So keep this in mind. This is a very important episode, a very important concept that sometimes, being too conservative, would actually hold you back from creating that optimal anabolic environment for muscle growth. Right, it's like trying to build a house with just barely enough materials coming in, right? Yeah, you're not going to have extra materials that represent fat storage, but you're making the whole process much harder and slower than it needs to be. It's just going to take forever. Now if you're the type of person who doesn't like to gain or lose weight and just wants to sit at the same weight and get some body recomp, that's a whole separate discussion you can do that. It's just going to take a lot longer time we're talking on the order of multiple years and you might get frustrated with the lack of progress in the gym because you're just not cranking up that anabolic environment.

Philip Pape: 26:59

All right, I think I've gone on long enough on this and I think it's all very exciting. I'm passionate about it. It's an evolution in our understanding of some really basic things in the science of muscle growth and strength. Don't forget, strength is a huge part of this. It means that many of you can make faster progress while maintaining a smart, methodological or methodical approach. It's not about going crazy and just dumping calories in your body. It's giving you the resources that you need and cranking it right to that limit to fulfill the potential on a reasonable timeframe. Right, because your body is even more remarkable than we thought at building muscle and when you provide the right stimulus through training and adequate nutrients through food, it knows exactly what to do with those resources.

Philip Pape: 27:43

And remember, if you want to implement these new recommendations and all the other things, what do you track? How do you track them? How do you know that it's working to maximize your muscle growth? I've completely revised my muscle building nutrition blueprint to reflect the latest research and it breaks down exactly how to determine your ideal rate of gain, set up your nutrition and monitor your progress. To get those results, just download using the link in my show notes, or, as always, go to witsandweightscom slash free. And if you want to track your progress with the app that I mentioned earlier, which I use, my clients use. Try Macrofactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. I link to that as well in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that sometimes being too conservative can hold you back from your true potential. This is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Eat More of THESE Mood-Boosting Foods for Everyday Happiness with Dr. Sarah Ballantyne | Ep 241

Can the specific foods you eat transform your mental well-being? Does nutrition hold the key to unlocking mental resilience?

Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Dr. Sarah Ballantyne, a PhD researcher and New York Times bestselling author, to discuss the powerful relationship between nutrient-dense foods and happiness. They explain how specific food nutrients can boost mood and resilience in ways supplements cannot. Learn and discover easy strategies to add nutrient-packed foods to your diets, the benefits of a diverse intake, and why eating for abundance rather than restriction may be the key to physical and emotional well-being.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne is a scientist with a PhD in medical biophysics and an acclaimed author whose work focuses on the links between nutrition, immune health, and chronic disease. Her NutriVore framework encourages a balanced, nutrient-focused approach to food based on evidence, not restriction.

📲 Download your free Nutrition 101 Guide to Body Composition to master your nutrition plan for sustainable fat loss, muscle gain, and improved health, plus support your workouts, or go to witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:45 Nourish beyond restriction
8:13 Nutrients, happiness, and wellbeing
13:39 Boosting mood and stress management
18:52 Hidden compounds with big benefits
22:35 Diversifying your plate for maximum nutrients
31:57 Tips for making nutritious foods irresistibly flavorful
41:24 Breaking from food fear and diet culture
46:07 Insulin and nutrient diversity misconceptions
49:41 The importance of increasing scientific literacy on nutrition
55:24 Outro

Episode resources:

• nutrivore.com: Click “Join” to go to the free weekly newsletter (bite-sized information)

• TikTok: @drsarahballantyne 

• Threads: @drsarahballantyne 

• YouTube: @drsarahballantyne 

• Instagram: @drsarahballantyne 

• Facebook: fb.com/drsarahballantyne 

The Science Behind Food and Happiness

Understanding the Food-Mood Connection Beyond Just "Comfort Foods"

We often reach for chocolate or ice cream when we're feeling down, seeking that temporary pleasure hit. But what if certain nutrients could create genuine, lasting improvements in your mental well-being?

Research shows that increasing specific foods in your diet can boost happiness as much as landing a new job - and within just 24 months. This isn't about emotional eating or restrictive diets. It's about understanding how nutrients actually impact our brain chemistry and mental health.

The Evidence for Nutrient-Driven Happiness

A groundbreaking 2016 study found that each additional serving of fruits and vegetables increased life satisfaction, up to eight servings daily. The impact was equivalent to going from unemployment to employment - a dramatic shift in well-being that occurred within two years.

This is significant because while we often hear about how nutrition affects our long-term physical health, the mental health benefits happen much sooner. You don't have to wait decades to experience the positive effects.

Key Nutrients That Impact Mental Well-being

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne explains several crucial nutrients that directly influence our mood and mental health:

• Vitamin C: Modulates stress response and affects how our bodies handle cortisol

• Polyphenols: Found in fruits, vegetables, and even chocolate - provide antioxidant and anti-inflammatory benefits

• Fiber: Supports gut bacteria that produce neurotransmitters affecting mood

• B vitamins: Directly impact neurological health and cognitive function

Simple Ways to Boost Your Nutrient Intake

Rather than focusing on restriction, here are practical ways to add more nutrient-dense foods:

1. Start with one extra serving of vegetables at lunch

2. Include a variety of colors (different colors = different beneficial compounds)

3. Experiment with new preparation methods for foods you typically avoid

4. Focus on whole food sources rather than supplements

Beyond Just Fruits and Vegetables

While produce is crucial, other nutrient-dense foods also support mental well-being:

• Mushrooms (contain ergothioneine, nicknamed the "longevity vitamin")

• Legumes (packed with polyphenols)

• Herbs and spices (concentrated sources of beneficial compounds)

• Dark chocolate (yes, really - contains unique polyphenols)

The Bottom Line on Food and Happiness

The evidence is clear: what we eat significantly impacts how we feel mentally, not just physically. By focusing on adding nutrient-dense foods rather than restriction, we can improve our mental well-being while still enjoying all foods in moderation.

This isn't about perfect adherence or avoiding certain foods. It's about making small, sustainable additions that compound over time to support both physical and mental health.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're like most of us, you've probably tried everything to feel better when you're stressed or overwhelmed Meditation, supplements, you name it but what if the answer was sitting right there in your kitchen? Today, I'm sitting down with Dr Sarah Ballantyne to uncover the fascinating link between specific nutrients and happiness. You'll learn why certain foods can boost your mood more effectively than any supplement, and how simple additions to your diet could improve your life satisfaction as much as landing your dream job. Whether you're dealing with daily stress or you just want to feel more resilient without another restrictive diet, what we're about to share will give you those practical, science-backed strategies that actually work actually work. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:53

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are exploring a surprising connection between nutrient-dense foods and happiness with Dr Sarah Ballantyne. Now, sarah is a New York Times bestselling author with a PhD in medical biophysics, and her research background spans a ton of areas inflammation, immunity, cell biology. And, after her personal experience with the limitations of restrictive dieting raise your hand she developed the NutriVore framework, an evidence-based approach focused on nutrient density rather than restriction. So today, you're going to learn which nutrients are essential for mood and mental health, how to easily add more nutrient-dense foods to your diet, not take things away, and why focusing on abundance could be the key to both physical and psychological well-being. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 1:42

Oh, thank you so much for having me, and I'm just like so excited about this conversation today.

Philip Pape: 1:47

Yeah, as I was saying before we started recording, you know I personally had not followed you until someone who follows this show recommended you and then I was kind of I'll say in love with your content right away because of how aligned we are in you know, the freedom, the freedom that comes from knowing there are a variety of ways that you can eat. There's no right or wrong. There's diversity of wonderful foods out there. And you take the lens and the frame of nutrients specifically, which is also a little bit unique because sometimes it gets it's like the fourth thing right. It's like calories, macros, meal timing, oh, and, by the way, get your nutrients.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:22

It ends up being the fourth thing on a to-do list where you only ever get three things done.

Philip Pape: 2:27

Yes, right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:28

It's always the so I'm a big to-do list person. Every morning I'll like write out like the things that I want to accomplish for the day, and there's always those couple of things at the bottom of the list that get pushed to tomorrow and then pushed to tomorrow and they don't actually make it far enough to get done until the day before their due right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:45

I think that getting all of the essential nutrients that we need I mean no dietary framework teaches that the USDA dietary guidelines doesn't teach us what nutrients are important.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:58

There's 49 essential nutrients, right, they've just decided it's too complex. Right, we'll focus on eating patterns. But when you don't really understand the whys behind those eating patterns, it makes it really really hard to implement. And so if you don't have an appreciation for I'm getting these types of nutrients from these types of foods, we don't need to have it like, all 49 nutrients memorized, right. Like we don't need that kind of encyclopedic knowledge to be able to figure out, like, within the foods we like and fit within our budget and fit within the time we have to prepare food, we don't need to know every single thing about those foods to be able to make those choices so that we're actually getting the full range of nutrients our bodies need. But, like of some basics which, like, we're not taught in school, we're not taught by the medical establishment, we're not taught by the different dietary frameworks that are out there, that base knowledge changes the game, right. It turns any diet into a diet that actually meets our nutritional needs, and that is the thing that actually improves long-term health.

Philip Pape: 3:57

Yeah, and I think it. Also it makes it exciting, interesting and desirous to go after certain foods Like, for example I think about mushrooms you talk about ergothionine, I think it's called, which we can get into as like, great for longevity, I think. And I would have had no idea. And also I'm not a huge fan of mushrooms, Neither is one of my daughters, but my wife makes them and throws them in our food. We're like we eat them anyway and this is kind of incentive. You know, it's just. It's just another incentive to add in nutritious foods and not think like it's about weight loss or it's about a macro like protein or even fiber. Right, like it's much more nuanced but it doesn't have to be complicated, is what I'm hearing.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 4:35

Yes, so I would say it's complex but not complicated, if that makes any sense, right? So you know that's a knowledge base that I need to be able to communicate, but I don't think it's a knowledge base that, like the average person needs. I think we can talk about, like some simple ways to formulate a plate, some, you know, a short list of foods of, like mushrooms that are important foods to add, right Like, where we can get those like really cool unique nutrients and then fill those nutritional gaps. But it doesn't need to be like. I actually think, very, very importantly, I want to take the stress out of food choice. I think, with restrictive diets, there's a lot of like reading labels to look for those food toxins and those inflammatory ingredients, right Like I think a lot of diet culture nowadays is really focused on identifying things to avoid, the vast majority of which is not considering the very important aspect of dose, like how much of that?

Philip Pape: 5:33

compound is a problem. And context, am I getting enough?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 5:35

of that from this food. Generally, the answer is no right, like, yeah, sure, those are foods to moderate, but that doesn't mean avoid completely, right, and I think, that yeah, go ahead.

Philip Pape: 5:46

No, no, no, no, go ahead. Keep going, please.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 5:48

So I think the challenge right now, in a time where, like there's so much food fear, right, so much conspiracy theory around food, food choices become a stressful event, and so I'm not looking to make it complicated in a way that's stressful.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 6:03

I'm looking to redirect our attention to the things that really matter, which is does my diet actually meet my nutritional needs? And actually create some simple structure to take the stress out of it. And then, by adopting a permissive structure where we make room for those delicious foods that someone else is telling me to be terrified of, but I love and makes my life better when I eat them because they give me joy right, if I can intentionally use those as tools for sustainability, those foods as something really positive to include in my diet. So I'm getting enough joy from my diet that I can stick to it. Right, like we're just completely changing the way we think about food choice with the goal of let's make it fun, let's make it easy, let's take the stress out of it. What foods I eat in the day should not be a point of stress and anxiety.

Philip Pape: 6:58

I totally agree. I had a delicious apple not long ago after lunch. It was like a new variety we had tried and just the enjoyment of the taste and the sweetness and knowing that there's nothing wrong with fruits. Like, believe it or not, some people think there's something wrong, you know, granted, if you had 50 apples a day it might be a problem. But again, food matrix. So it's interesting.

Philip Pape: 7:15

You mentioned joy and positivity because kind of the angle I was hoping to take for today's podcast and I know we'll go on a lot of tangents is what the research shows about adding fruits and vegetables into your diet to improve well-being, mood, happiness and I think beyond that, because people are like, oh okay, that's a very kind of narrow thing. Look at this as levels, levels of education and levels of application, in that there are probably a lot of people eating a ton of processed foods without many nutritious foods in their diet. They're like what do I even do to start? And I don't want to go to a NutriVore index and try to make a whole puzzle out of a million foods, right? So when we talk about joy and well-being and happiness, I don't think we're talking about necessarily comfort foods or the hedonic pleasure. We're talking about genuine, lasting improvements in our well-being. What's the difference between those? That'll be the first question. And then what is the baseline step up people can take in their diets to get toward that point?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 8:12

Yeah, so when we talk about quality of life foods which is how I like to think of them I'm referring very specifically to those like high dopamine response foods, right? So, like the foods that have that like salt, sugar, fat combination that just triggers like all of the reward centers in our brain that give me, like a short-term like dopamine high, but that aren't necessarily the foods that are supplying a lot of the nutrients that I need for long-term mental health, physical health, right, stress management, things that are actually going to make a profound impact in just like how I feel walking through the world. I think it's really important to like have room for both, right? So those like dopamine hits.

Philip Pape: 8:58

Oh, for sure.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 9:00

I don't see those as bad foods but, like often, we're talking about foods that don't have a lot of nutritional value and when they're overabundant in our diet, it makes it really hard to select foods in the rest of our diet so that we're still getting all of the essential vitamins and minerals and amino acids and fatty acids and phytonutrients that are really important, if not technically essential, that actually support our long-term health. So when we're talking about those foods like, what are the nutrients that we can focus on to support mental health? Or, as you just mentioned, right, what is my entry point? What is my one little thing now that I can do?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 9:36

When I talk about habit formation I love, like, what is the easiest thing? What is going to be something that's so easy for you to do that it's a no-brainer, it fits within your budget, it fits within your time. It's going to be foods that I mean maybe they're not dopamine foods, but they're still foods that you like and you can build on that success. And it is always, always, always. Let's start with adding a serving of vegetables. That is, like, always step one, and a part of that is we get the same benefit to all-cause mortality as a general indicator of health and longevity, going from zero to one servings of fruits and vegetables per day, as we do from going from one to four. So like that first little baby step.

Philip Pape: 10:18

It's like an exponential curve. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 10:20

Yeah, we get sort of diminishing returns. We still get benefit going higher, but we get sort of diminishing returns the higher we go. And it kind of plateaus. Different studies show different plateau levels. Some are as low as three servings of vegetables per day. Some are as high as eight right, but five is kind of where most studies show above that we're not necessarily getting additional benefit from more servings of vegetables. And then with fruit it's like two to three servings is kind of the sweet spot where we get the most health benefit, kind of where most of the science is at.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 10:51

But there was this amazing 2016 study, I think out of Australia, where they looked at just measurements of like life satisfaction, right, so just like how happy are you, and they looked at fruit and vegetable intake and they basically showed that for every servings of fruit or vegetable added per day, that a person ate up to eight servings per day. Total. That aligns very well with like five servings of vegetables and three servings with a fruit. They had like this increase in happiness, well-being, life satisfaction and the difference they calculated, right. So it's sort of a theoretical study. They calculated the difference between going from zero fruits and vegetables per day to going to eight was an equivalent increase in life satisfaction as going from unemployed to employed. I mean, I would love to see like an intervention version of the study where they take people who are not eating any fruits and vegetables and, like here, eat eight fruits and vegetables per day and we're going to measure, like how long it takes to like have this improvement in life satisfaction. But, based on the data they had, they predicted that improvement occurs in under two years. Whereas when you think about, like, the benefits of eating lots of fruits and vegetables I mean you might have some like digestive improvements that are pretty fast, right, but a lot of the rationale is so that you won't have cardiovascular disease in three years right To diabetes in 20 years right, it feels very far off and I think sometimes it's really hard to feel motivated to make food changes now, especially when that's really like outside of our routine and our comfort area.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 12:26

It's maybe flavors we're not familiar with, Maybe we find vegetables to be bitter it's really hard to make those choices. When we're thinking about some kind of far off like consequence right, that's not going to be a problem for decades. But when you think about, yeah, you could feel that much happier in some months, maybe up to two years. Now we're talking right Like now. This feels like yeah, this is worth it and I'm just going to be a happier person and all I have to do is eat more fruits and vegetables. That's amazing, and the best place to start is the beginning. Just add more compared to what you're eating now.

Philip Pape: 12:59

Yeah, I feel like we see that similar pattern with anything that promotes healthy living, like strength training. You're not necessarily going to get a ton of benefit in the first few weeks. In fact, you might feel like what am I doing? And then it takes a little bit, even like walking more. We know that's huge for all-cause mortality, but it's not like you're just going to get an immediate benefit the first week necessarily. So, speaking of the fruits and vegetables, then the study you're talking about is exactly the one that made me think about this topic to begin with, and it's in your book. What's happening at a biochemical level? Is it changing our mental state, or is it that that lifestyle is then correlated with overall healthier eating and behavior?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 13:39

Yeah, so studies that look at this are really trying to control for as many other factors as possible. So we're trying to make sure that this isn't. People who eat more fruits and vegetables are also more active and they're also younger, right, and they also have, you know, a higher socioeconomic status, like those things are true, right? So people who eat more fruits and vegetables do tend to have other health related behaviors, but they try to account for that in their mathematical analysis as much as possible to try to tease out what part of this effect is just the fruits and vegetables versus, like, something about this group of people. But, like, absolutely, there is a piece of this that you know, health behavior stack, right. So someone who is very active, probably also trying to get more sleep, right. So probably also trying to eat a diet to fuel athletic performance, right, like, we do tend to see those patterns. But we know also that there's nutrients in fruits and vegetables that are directly linked to physical and mental health. So big one here is vitamin C, right, fruits and vegetables are our best food sources of vitamin C, and vitamin C is a really key modulator of the stress response. So vitamin C is required for the production of catecholamines like adrenaline, noradrenaline, cortisol, but it also modulates the sensitivity of catecholamine receptors. So it's also modulating how, like, the body responds to the production of those stress hormones. So what happens is when we are not getting enough vitamin C, that magnifies the stress response. When we are stressed we kind of burn through vitamin C so we kind of get it from like both sides. We can kind of get this like runaway snowball of badness or we've got a really clear intervention point.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 15:25

So they've done studies where they give people vitamin C. There's one study done, I think 2004, if I remember correctly, where they gave people vitamin C. So they did a thousand milligrams three times a day for two weeks. So technically that is above the tolerable upper limit of vitamin C. So just throwing that little caveat out there, the tolerable upper limit of vitamin C. So just throwing that little caveat out there, the tolerable upper limit for vitamin C is 2000 milligrams. That's based on GI side effects. We don't see other negative health effects of too much vitamin C until about 10 grams per day and that seems to increase risk of kidney stones, at least in men. But if anytime you're going above the tolerable upper limit, that's a talk with your doctor moment. So just throwing out the caveat.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 16:10

But then they measured the stress response to mental arithmetic. So like quick, what's 27 times three divided by two plus 17,. Right, like that type of though. And you got to figure that out. Can you really anxious about it? You got to do it real fast. Or they had people do public speaking and measured their stress response and showed that just two weeks of upping vitamin C intake really dramatically decreased the stress response.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 16:36

There's been other studies showing that people who consume more vitamin C have lower risk of depression and anxiety. There was a study out of the Nurses' Health Study that showed that two servings of citrus fruit per day one of our best food sources of vitamin C, including what's cool about citrus is the polyphenols in citrus increase the bioavailability of vitamin C. So we actually use that vitamin C a little bit more readily. And they had 18%, 20% somewhere in that vicinity reduced risk of developing depression compared to two servings or less per week. So that is like just an example of one nutrient.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 17:12

We've got lots of fiber that improves the composition of the gut microbiome, our gut bacteria, and they're linked to just about everything that can go wrong with us health-wise. But a major path here is like they're actually making neurotransmitters. They're impacting our neurological health prettywise. But a major path here is they're actually making neurotransmitters. They're impacting our neurological health pretty dramatically. We do know there's a very strong link between gut microbiome activity and mental health challenges. There's other things, right, vitamin B6, other nutrients in fruits and vegetables that are directly impacting our neurophysiology, which we experience as mood and cognition and resilience, and that's all in those fruits and vegetables. So that is like our mechanistic explanation. And then we've got the like added benefit of. You know, probably if we're adding more fruits and vegetables, we're going to start making other changes that will also like getting more activity also boosts mood, right.

Philip Pape: 18:07

Absolutely. Getting more sleep also boosts mood right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 18:09

So like we're also building more health habits, that are all going to stack.

Philip Pape: 18:14

Yeah, and there's the benefits like being more full and having more hydration and all of that. I like that you mentioned. I mean, we talked about the levels and what we're saying here is, just by adding some level of servings of fruits and vegetables and we didn't even say it has to be these or has to be that you're probably going to have major benefits. You mentioned vitamin C. There's a ton of other vitamins and minerals and you mentioned polyphenols and I wanted to hit on that one because I feel like there's a whole hidden world of compounds in vegetables and fruits that we are oblivious to because they're not on a nutrition label and they're not in an ingredient list. Can you just talk a little bit about that and how important that is?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 18:51

Yeah, so polyphenols are the best studied, best understood class of phytonutrients, phyto meaning plant, nutrient meaning thing that we use as a raw material. Right, and what's interesting about phytonutrients, like broadly as a class, is we consider them non-essential, but we know that the more are, on average. A lot of that comes out of research into polyphenols. So it was actually before vitamin C was identified as the nutrient that, like if we didn't get enough, we developed scurvy. They knew that lemon juice or lemons or citrus fruit we developed scurvy. They knew that lemon juice or lemons or citrus fruit could treat scurvy.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 19:27

They also knew, like turnips and turnip greens, like they had some other like foods that they knew could prevent scurvy. And so a lot of that early research was done on lemons and there were actually some polyphenols in a lemon peel I think it was that they identified as being protective against the scurvy rash, even though it was like a whole separate pathway compared to vitamin C and scurvy. And so when they first sort of identified these polyphenols they didn't realize it was such a huge class of molecules at the time and they actually initially labeled them vitamin P, like they got to be a vitamin for a little while and then it was like, oh, okay, like Pluto was a planet, yeah, they're not Right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 20:06

Yes, very much Like we're changing our description. Once we realize it's not technically essential, then we take it out of the vitamin classification that you only get the vitamin name if you're absolutely essential. I mean, there's about 10,000 of them and they are broadly antioxidant and anti-inflammatory, and then different ones have different additional effects, right? So some can localize in different tissues, they can bind with different receptors. So we'll see the polyphenols in coffee are different than the polyphenols in tea, which are different than the polyphenols in chocolate, which are different than the polyphenols in citrus fruit, which is different than the polyphenols in apples.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 20:44

Right, we're getting different ones from different foods, and it's actually one of the things that makes different families of fruits and vegetables so beneficial and is a really strong argument for diversifying our diet as much as possible, so eating as wide a variety of foods as possible, because then we're getting maybe these, you know, 40 polyphenols from this food and like a different 50 polyphenols from this other food. But fruits and vegetables are generally our best sources, right? There's some other, right? I mentioned chocolate and coffee and tea. Legumes, as a general rule, are really packed with polyphenols as well, so like lentils are just like, really really high in polyphenols, so those are sort of our best sources. And what's really just fascinating is there's like increased polyphenol intake reduces risk of again just about everything that can go wrong with us health-wise. Right, it's just one of those nutrients that, because it's antioxidant, because it's anti-inflammatory, it then intersects with just about every pathology, just because inflammation is part of the pathogenesis of just about every chronic illness.

Philip Pape: 21:49

Okay, so that makes sense and I'm glad you threw in. We don't want to limit the discussion to fruits and vegetables. Right, there's all the other food. I mean, there's a whole bunch of food that has all these compounds.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 21:59

Anytime I can bring in chocolate, I'm going to for sure.

Philip Pape: 22:02

I'm with you, I love chocolate, I love chocolate Then I guess the next level down would be if someone's saying wanting to go from zero to two or three servings a day of something, whether it is fruits and vegetables or some other compounds, just to make it easy for them and again we're talking about mood well-being, kind of this general improvement in health. You did mention diversity, so part of the answer might be well, it's going to change like day to day, week to week. But are there some basics that you would say start here? You know, go to the grocery store, everyone can get these things. Start there and then you can start to get more complex from there.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:35

Yeah. So this argument kind of goes beyond polyphenols, because we've got some other classes of phytonutrients that are really important, so, for example, the glucosinolates in the cruciferous vegetable family, so that's broccoli, cabbage, kale, those types of vegetables.

Philip Pape: 22:50

And don't leave out Brussels sprouts please, my favorite.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:52

And Brussels sprouts is also in this family, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:55

They reduce risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer very, very strongly. And then some of those because again it's another big class of phytonutrients are really important for reducing risk of neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer's disease. The onion family has a similar class of phytonutrients called thiosulfonates Again reduced risk of cancer, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease. The beet like beets are kind of a small family, like it's beets and chard and amaranth and like prickly pear and dragon fruit, but they have a class of phytonutrients called betalains, named after being discovered in beets, that really strongly reduce risk of cardiovascular disease but also improve muscle like exercise performance and muscle recovery. It's why beetroot supplements are like all over social media.

Philip Pape: 23:41

right now they're in pre-workouts, betaine yeah, yeah yeah, that's true.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 23:44

And then we've got you know like we can keep going right with the ergothionine, which is a really cool antioxidant amino acid. That's non-proteinogenic, so we don't incorporate it into our proteins but it still has biological roles in our bodies From mushrooms. It's also been nicknamed the longevity vitamin by scientists because it's so strongly antioxidant, reduces risk of basically everything associated with aging, which includes Alzheimer's disease, parkinson's disease, dementia in general. So if we start to think about, like the patterns, like what types of fruit and vegetable families we're going to get these from, like I've already named some, right? So cruciferous vegetables like ticking that box, super beneficial. The onion families that include onions, garlic chives right, ticking that box, super beneficial, the onion family. So that would include onions, garlic, chives. Right, ticking that box, super beneficial. Mushrooms ticking that box. Citrus fruits those polyphenols are so beneficial. Ticking that box.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 24:37

Berries are best food source of anthocyanins, which also improve exercise performance and muscle recovery, but also can reduce pain sensation. Exercise performance and muscle recovery but also can reduce pain sensation, so it can be very, very helpful for chronic pain. Our best food source of those is berries. So, like there's another box to check, we can look at the sugars that are really good for the gut bacteria in leafy vegetables like lettuce or spinach. We can look at the slow burning carbohydrates, also really good for the gut microbiome in root vegetables.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:07

So like those are like the ones that come to mind as like if we're going to start adding, like trying to get as much like spread across those fruit and vegetable families as possible, get those beats maybe like once a week, right? So some people think of this as trying to hit the different colors of fruits and vegetables. So there's five color families red, orange and yellow, green, blue and purple, white and brown. But I think eat the rainbow and like the different fruits and vegetable families are like overlapping concepts but they're still slightly different. Right, like you can get to one place from the other. Right, you can focus on the fruit and vegetable families and end up at eat the rainbow.

Philip Pape: 25:45

But I kind of think like- yeah, and you can have like three things with one color, but still diverse, right, yes, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:51

My wife in case she does that.

Philip Pape: 25:52

I'm like we're eating a white dinner tonight, aren't we? But it's like cauliflower and three other things that are just light colored.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:58

Cauliflower and turnips, and yeah, you can absolutely get diversity and it's not Eat the Rainbow and you get diversity and it's not eat the rainbow and you can get eat the rainbow and still be hitting all the same fruit and vegetable family. So I kind of like you know both of those concepts ideally, would kind of be somewhere in our brain. Right Like, okay, this has been a lot of cruciferous vegetables this week. Now maybe let me add some like carrots, or you know, some asparagus, right, something from a completely different vegetable family, even though I'm still hitting green. Right Like now I'm mixing up which vegetable family I'm actually selecting from. So kind of having those ideas. But it doesn't mean like, okay, I just listed 7,000 foods. It doesn't mean we need to go. You know, I would.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 26:41

Generally nutrition changes. We never want to go from zero to 100 in 0.6 seconds. Right Like, that can actually cause increased GI symptoms. Right Like, it's not generally fun. And why, like there's no like time limit here? Right, there's no deadline where someone's gonna be like, oh, you're not eating your five servings of vegetables yet or your three servings of fruit yet You're gonna like fail your assignment. Like there's not a teacher waiting for you to turn it in. There's no timeframe that we have to accomplish all of these diet changes in, which is great, because that gives us permission to tackle that step by step, to set ourselves up, to figure out each piece, turn that into a healthy habit, build that success and then figure out what the next piece is going to be so we can each take our own path there.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 27:28

And maybe it's adding a serving of vegetables to lunch, right? Maybe that's the first step. And with lunch, okay, what's going to be easiest for me? Maybe some carrot and celery sticks with a dip I really like. Maybe it's adding some lettuce to my sandwich, right. Or picking a soup that has some vegetables in it, right, some chicken vegetable soup for lunch. Maybe it's some guacamole, right. Like what is the thing that's going to make sense in my life? And like I'm going to work on that habit.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 27:56

And then I'm going to go okay, well, I've got veggies and dip, like as a lunch food, as part of my routine, so now I'm going to try to mix up those veggies. So now I'm going to try to add, you know, some kohlrabi, delicious cruciferous vegetable that is a great dipping vegetable, I know, not familiar for a lot of people, but because of that it tends to be very affordable, or some, you know, broccoli or cauliflower. Maybe I'll add some tomatoes, right, like maybe I'm going to branch out my veggies that I'm going to dip in for lunch, right, like maybe I'm going to branch out my veggies that I'm going to dip in for lunch, right, so now I can start adding that more rainbow of colors, more different fruits and vegetable families. So I think it's important to sort of give ourselves permission to iterate in a way that we're still making those steps towards diet improvement and towards that diet that is going to increase our life satisfaction dramatically from unemployment to employment levels, their life satisfaction dramatically from unemployment to employment levels.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 28:49

But do it in such a way that we're not tackling it with a diet mentality right. We're not like jumping in and like muscling our way through until we can't anymore and then falling off that bandwagon. Instead we're adopting it as a lifelong healthy habit. So that means making it so much part of our routine. That's the norm, right, that's the automatic, that's the default mode and that's where we see, like, the really dramatic improvements to long-term health outcomes is when we can make those healthy not just diet changes, lifestyle changes to health-related behaviors. When we can make all of that our default mode, that's when we really win.

Carol: 29:24

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 30:04

Yeah, I agree. I like the accessible approach you talked about and adding things in. That's a revelation I had a few years ago as well and it's a big switch for people, right. I know you came from a paleo background and I did as well, and it was like what do you not eat? As opposed to let's add stuff in.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:19

And also perfect or bust right yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:21

Like that is oh yeah, all or nothing. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:23

Yeah, it was like oh, you ate rice, you're not paleo, right? Like I mean paleo communities.

Philip Pape: 30:27

Oh, but I'm doing modified paleo anyway.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:28

Right, I mean, the paleo community is not the only one like this, where it's like you have to do all of this perfectly every single day.

Philip Pape: 31:00

Or it doesn get back to not worried about what happens two years from now, or you're going to not get cardiovascular disease, which is great, but also how's it improving my life in the moment? So two follow-ups then, from everything you said. First, I can just picture a wonderful week of menu options for my meal prep based on all these, because my wife does most of the cooking these days, but she definitely loves a lot of what you said, especially beets, and so my first question is that's on my very short list of like. It's very difficult for me to eat let's just put it that way like beets, tomatoes and mushrooms, and so I'll have like tomato soup or like mashed diced tomatoes in there. You know, I'll say I'll have her or me sneak it in Same thing with mushrooms. You know, chop them up. Beets, however. I've had difficulty. So for everybody listening who's picky about any number of these things which you know is a fact, people are picky what are your go-to one or two strategies to start actually incorporating these?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 31:56

So, first of all, I think hiding foods you don't like from yourself is an absolutely valid strategy. So chopping up those mushrooms and adding them to like a mince right, like that's actually how I got my kids to like mushrooms. I started with chopping them up very, very small and putting them in like shepherd's pie type dishes where you can't really, and you got rid of the texture. Then it's just like a little bit of umami flavor. That's how I got them to like mushrooms. Then it was very, very small pieces in soup, right, like we built it slowly over time. So, like, hiding it from yourself is great, but there's like there's some specific tricks for specific food. You mentioned beets. So the thing that most people don't like in beets is called jasmine. I think that's how it's pronounced. I don't know. I'm just trying to say it confidently so we don't second guess my pronunciation.

Philip Pape: 32:46

We'll remember Princess Jasmine. That's how my kids remember it. Okay.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 32:49

So that's got a really like earthy flavor.

Philip Pape: 32:52

Yes, it tastes like dirt. That's my opinion. It just tastes like dirt, okay, some people are more sensitive to it than others.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 32:59

So you're like a super taster for Jasmine or geosmin again, and that is usually the flavor that people really strongly dislike in beets. So one thing to know is that some varieties of beets don't have as much, so like golden beet tend to have less than like the beet colored beets. You know, like those really deep red, like our standard typical beets. The flavor is a little bit milder raw and you can eat beets raw. So you might like it grated and added to a salad or sliced really thin and added to a salad, especially golden beets, if you don't like the flavor of them roasted. But also we can deactivate that flavor with an acid. So that's why dishes that use like balsamic vinegar and beets like roasted together delicious, right. So like you're actually deactivating a lot, and the smaller you cut your beets, the more you can get that acid in there. So you might like pickled beets more than fresh beets, right? So like understanding those tips people who don't like cruciferous vegetables. It's actually the glucosinolates, those like really beneficial phytonutrients in there. Some people are bitter super tasters so they can taste that flavor just so much more strongly than most people can, and some people can't taste it at all. For some people Brussels sprouts are sweet, which is wild to me. I'm a bitter taster but not a super taster, so for me they're bitter, but they're pleasantly bitter. But there's some people for whom that is just so much.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 34:26

So, things that you can do, you can blanch the vegetable before you cook it, however you were going to. That'll leach some of those bitter compounds out. So like blanch your broccoli or your Brussels sprouts and then roast it. Then you can also like okay, it's got a flavor, let's balance it. So we can balance with some acidity, some astringency. So use some lemon juice or some vinegar. We can balance with some sweetness. So I make a Brussels sprout dish where I roast them first and then I toss them with a tablespoon for a whole big dish of maple syrup and balsamic vinegar. You can see, balsamic is definitely my go-to. And then I love adding, like some toasted pecans, maybe a little bit of bacon, right, like just like that.

Philip Pape: 35:09

Oh my God, I gotta go to dinner at your house. This is great.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 35:13

Right. So it's understanding, like what is in this thing that I don't like and how can I balance that with culinary techniques so that the full experience is something that I will like? There was a study done just a few years ago where they served vegetable dishes in college cafeterias. They did this study in five different college cafeterias and I think they had like 70 different vegetable dishes and they tested giving the vegetables either like a neutral name, like green beans, or a health-focused name, like nutritious green beans, or a taste-focused name like sizzling Sichuan green beans with toasted garlic.

Philip Pape: 35:53

You got me on that. I know which one wins.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 35:56

Right, well, yeah, the exact same dish. The only thing different was the name on the label in front of it. And they actually they did as much control as they could, so they actually made sure that the entire menu was the same, so that the dish was presented beside the exact same things. And then, like five weeks apart, now it's the exact same green bean dish, but now with a different name. And they showed that, compared to the neutral name, giving those green beans a health focus name decreased vegetable selection by 15%. Very, very sad. And giving it a taste focus name increased vegetable selection by 14%. So the difference was 29% between nutritious green beans and sizzling Sichuan green beans with toasted garlic, even though it was the exact same dish, like prepared the exact same way. And then they showed that, when they had the taste focus names, people on average ate 1.78 kilograms more of the vegetable dishes per day, which is, by the way, like the equivalent of about five servings. Right, like it's just a huge, huge difference. It was like 38%, 39%.

Philip Pape: 37:05

They're going to be so happy.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 37:06

They're going to be so happy, yes, and you know what, when you're in college you need it. So, all good. They showed some other cool things, like the college cafeterias that just sort of had a reputation for making better vegetable dishes. People just selected more vegetables period from those college cafeterias, right? So there, there's other things that went into this. And then they did all this like psychology, like side experiments, to make sure it was the anticipation of delicious flavor that was really the key driver of that effect, which it was.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 37:35

But, like, that's like another thing that we can do in our own homes, right, so like, maybe it is perusing the cookbooks we already have or some recipes on the internet for the things that just they look delicious. Right, it doesn't necessarily have to be the name, it just has to be the anticipation. Right, oh my gosh, look at this amazing, you know, beet salad with walnuts and arugula and goat cheese. This looks delicious. Let's make this, right. And then we're like, we're expecting it to be good because we've looked for the things that look like a really delicious way to prepare that meal, and then, if it's not like, you keep going, right, you keep exploring until you find the one that you like. Or why can't we give dishes snazzy names at home, right, like why can't we call that steamed broccoli, right? Yeah, it's basic, it's just steamed broccoli, but we could call it beyond basic broccoli bomb. I really should have had something prepared.

Philip Pape: 38:32

Yeah, I love it. No, I give you credit for trying to come up with something on the spot.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 38:36

I just went straight to alliteration. I'm like what are all of the beautiful broccoli something?

Philip Pape: 38:41

There's something alliterative, bombastic broccoli. Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 38:47

Best beautiful broccoli something. But yeah, like we can still do that at home. So, like, also like taking advantage of that. Psychology and studies do show that like our flavor preference is very affected by familiarity. So even just like you might not like it now, but like having it more often, you may develop a liking for it, right, so there could be a genetic thing that's kind of hard to like if cilantro tastes like soap you might not ever get there, that's fine, but like we can leverage these other tools to still work on that, habit formation.

Philip Pape: 39:18

Cool. I love it all. I mean, there's not really, I'll say, an excuse holding us back if we want to incorporate these. It's the naming or the skill of the cooking or how you cook it. Or you mentioned recipes. I mean, recipes have been hot for a decade plus. Now you know one thing I give credit to some of the dieting camps. They come up with some amazing recipe books, right Like the paleo and all of them. Sometimes, you know, they really go out of their way to try to do that.

Philip Pape: 39:43

I think a good segue because I want to make sure to cover this while I have your time is your history and evolving your views. And you mentioned something earlier. Actually, quote you said what did you say today? I wrote it down oh, really important, but not technically essential. I want to tease on that. I know where you're going with that and I want to do it in the context of, for example, at the macro level carbs okay, and I want to do it in the context of, for example, at the macro level carbs okay.

Philip Pape: 40:06

Hot button topic, and we know that it is also again in paleo, no grains, carbs tend to be lower. In keto, it's like super low carb. It's a whole thing. It's been a huge thing. So I have your book right and highlighted a section that says contrary to purported claims, rigorous and well-controlled metabolic ward studies have confirmed that low-carbon keto diets don't turn us into fat-burning machines with increased energy expenditure and preferential fat loss. If anything, they do the opposite and they may be associated with unwanted side effects. And the side effects might be a reflection of how many amazing things insulin does to the body beyond simply shuttling glucose cells.

Philip Pape: 40:44

And I'm not trying to get into a carb debate or anything, even though you and I are probably on the same page there. It's more of the skepticism of the industry and also how we evaluate all of this stuff. But how do we frame it? Just like you framed vegetables into a positive right, Whether it is carbs or some other vilified thing. This is a big topic, right? It's kind of what you're all about. So I want to hear how that's happened. And now you've got a history behind you that people will still bring up, because you've kind of betrayed a whole bunch of people that you may have supported, and now you've got folks criticizing you with the new stuff. So what are your thoughts on all that?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 41:23

Yeah, it feels like a lot of threads to pull together. So first, I sort of address you know you mentioned earlier that I came from paleo, right, I sort of come from that food fear don't eat these foods because of the lectins right type place and my transition to evidence-based was iterative. It took place over several years. Evidence-based was iterative. It took place over several years. I started talking about it in 2019 and you know, I don't know when I finished like I don't know at what point. I was like aha, now I have finally addressed all of my food fears and I've moved on and I, you know, have this like different perspective. Maybe I'm not, maybe I haven't finished my transition, maybe I'm still in the middle of it. I will only know that in the future when I look back on this moment. Right, but that was very much driven by for me, like researching the gut microbiome and being confronted again it's this sort of iterative process by studies that were showing me the incredible benefit of foods that I was afraid to eat, right, of foods that I had learned to be fearful of in this community. I'm like, yeah, but like, look at how amazing these specific types of fiber are and these polyphenols, right, and this collection of nutrients that lentils have for the gut microbiome and the improvements in gut microbial activity that are then reducing risk of cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes and Alzheimer's disease. And oh, by the way, look at these studies showing the more legumes like lentils somebody eats, the lower the risk of those health conditions.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 42:56

And that was sort of like the beginning of me opening my eyes to the logical fallacies that I had bought into, right? So this idea that just because something is harmful in large doses right, or that I can identify a chemical in a food that is harmful, that doesn't mean the whole food is bad for my whole body. And we really want to look at, okay, so sure, this food has carbohydrates, carbohydrates in their simplest form, in overabundance. If I'm eating, like, just plain sugar, like yeah, that is going to, you know, eventually lead to insulin resistance because I'm sort of inundating the system with glucose. And so the logical fallacy, the way that I used to think of, is like okay, so this food compound, look at how harmful it is. Therefore, the whole foods that contain sugar or lectins or whatever, I shouldn't eat those.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 43:51

But we also have to look at what are the nutrients in this system, right? So am I being compensated, let's say, in this potato, by minerals and vitamins that are required for the insulin response, right, that are required to produce insulin that actually improve how the gluteal force quarter is like receptor right Into my blood so that I'm not actually overwhelming that system, because there's also like fiber and resistant starch right In these potatoes. So like let's look at how the whole food because foods are also biologically complex as we are let's also not look at just the one system, right, let's not just look at insulin. Let's look at how that potassium is improving my kidney health and helping to reduce my blood pressure, right, like let's look at how this is a really satiating food so that it's actually going to help regulate my hunger hormones. Right, like there's other things that we want to look at. And so for me, the transition is really marked by like taking a much more like 30,000 foot view to how I look at foods and looking at the biggest and most rigorous studies, looking at systematic reviews and meta-analyses and not looking as much the interaction between one food compound and one biological system right, so, getting away from mechanisms which hurts my heart a little bit because that's the medical research I used to do.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 45:13

But getting away from mechanisms to look at the big picture and I think that is like thematic in the wellness community now is sort of like missing the forest for the trees because we get so focused on oxalates, right, like 17 different conditions. Then oxalates cause, in a very, very small set of circumstances, right, kidney stones and missing the part of. Yeah, but these vegetables are some of the most important vegetables for kidney health and when we eat more of these vegetables we reduce risk of kidney stones. Right, because there's other nutritive compounds that are affecting that system. So we need to look at their net effect, not one specific one. So that's sort of like the way that I've changed thinking about it.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 45:50

And with carbohydrates, specifically, right, are we looking at insulin as just doing this one thing binding with its receptor, making the glute for transporter. We move from inside of the cell into the cell membrane so glucose can get inside the cell. But insulin does so much more than that. I mean hormones in general. There's no hormone that only has one job. Hormones are really really fascinating. They're signaling molecules, so they cause other things to happen.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 46:17

But insulin is important for thyroid hormone conversion, so it's directly controlling our metabolism. It's important for getting amino acids into our muscle tissues and for myosynthesis, so really important for muscle repair and recovery and for gaining strength. That's why you don't find a ton of low carb athletes, at least not ones that stay that way for a long period of time. It's really important for it affects bone derived neurotropic factor, which is a really important cognition neurotransmitter in our brains, so very important for cognition. So people who either are insulin resistant like we don't want that either right, or who are on extremely low carbohydrate diets, tend to not be able to solve puzzles as quickly, right, when they're put into these different experiments testing cognition. Also affects sex hormone binding globulin in our bloodstream, so can therefore then affect androgens, so estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and all of the downstream effects there, right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 47:19

So like insulin does so much, and that's why we kind of see the similar types of health problems in, for example, people with type two diabetes, as we do in long-term ketogenic diets, which certainly have therapeutic potential right, like can be life-changing for people with refractory epilepsy. So I'm like not saying that there's not a time and a place for making that trade, but when we're so focused on weight loss as the only target of a diet and we are only thinking about the weight that we're going to lose, doing whatever the template is, and we're not thinking about the health ramifications. We're in a situation where we're trading health for weight loss and that is because of the lack of nutrients. When you start cutting out foods, developing food fear, you're cutting out the important nutrients that are important for all these other systems and adopting a really simplistic view of things like what insulin does.

Philip Pape: 48:19

Yeah, exactly, there's a lot to unpack. I'm not going to address it all, but kind of the big takeaways for me is one how you shifted from looking at mechanisms, mechanistic outcomes and so many studies, even that not only they're mechanistic, they don't even you know they might be on rats only and there's other confounders there. Like, if you believed some of those studies, you would say protein is terrible for you. You know, and I'm like, okay, so not mechanistic, but more in context. And then I kind of visualized how we have you said, the biggest picture of all and kind of, if you drill from the bottom up, you have the food you mentioned, the potato, all of the compounds, all the nutrients in that and how they work together and sometimes they offset others, and there's the dose level as well. Then you have the food matrix of your diet, right, like, combining all these things together also has context. And then your lifestyle or humanity or whatever level you want to go to.

Philip Pape: 49:10

I'm thinking of, like, the human individual and their day to day and week to week. It's so powerful because it's liberating. I mean it's liberating when people hear that and they're like, look, I really can't eat anything. I just have to, like, understand why I'm doing it and the benefits it gives me and add in, from a nutrient perspective, that's your kind of primary lens is super powerful, so I think this is good. I guess I would ask you if there's anything I hadn't asked I know there's a million questions I could have asked and what your answer would be if there's something you don't want the listener to take away from this.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 49:41

Well, I guess the big thing that I just want to say is that the learning about nutrients I mean, I've tried to make it as easy as possible with my book, with my website, with my social media, but it's still like it's a really big topic, right, there's people who dedicate their entire scientific careers to iteratively expanding human knowledge on like one tiny little piece of it. Right? So, like professor kevin hall, who has done all these like amazing metabolic board studies to bust the insulin model of obesity right, he's dedicated his entire career to just this tiny little piece and his studies are so important, but it's really just like one little piece of an entire field of science, right so? Just like you wouldn't learn all of physics in a day, you wouldn't learn all of chemistry in a day. Or math in a day, you're not going to learn all all of physics in a day. You wouldn't learn all of chemistry in a day. Or math in a day. You're not going to learn all of nutritional sciences in a day.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 50:31

But I also think that increasing our scientific literacy on nutrition topics is not only our path to understanding how to make those easy additions and simple swaps within our food preferences to increase our nutrient intake. But it's also our path to being able to identify misinformation and like fear-based marketing online, and I know that like not everyone agrees with like my point of view. Now, I've done a lot, a lot, a lot of work, both in like understanding where my food fears came from and where my own susceptibility to diet and nutrition misinformation came from. And then extra, extra, extra research to help like fix those things that I got wrong in my own brain and then be able to like communicate that online. And it's okay if you're like not bought into every piece of that, but the understanding, the science right, like understanding how we like go about designing a study so that we can answer these unanswered questions, understanding where the limits of human knowledge are so that we can understand the importance of new research as it's published, and then understanding that basic these nutrients do this, these foods have this nutrients.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 51:55

That is the pathway not just to food choice without stress, but also the worst parts of diet culture that actually preys on how little the average person actually knows about nutrients and that will make for a much more informed user base, right, who are much less susceptible to predatory marketing. So I invite you to come join me on that. Learning Doesn't all happen all at once, but I've created a lot of resources, like my free weekly newsletter, like all of my social media that tries to put that into bite-sized, like fun little pieces so that it doesn't feel like you're back at school but more like you're just like scrolling the most educational yet entertaining social media feed ever.

Philip Pape: 52:42

Such a positive message and I do love your Instagram feed and your reels like walking through the woods we were talking about. They're great. Such a positive message and I do love your Instagram feed and your reels like walking through the woods we were talking about. They're great. Probably a good way to open up your mind. I do want to defend you in a couple of ways for folks, just so you know kind of my context here. Shout out to Aurora, who's a follower of Sarah's, and she turned me on to Sarah. So shout out to you. I know you listen to the show. But two things I noticed. Sometimes the criticism is about evidence, which is kind of insane, because your book has like 40 something pages of citations and you could just yeah 460 studies mostly systematic reviews.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 53:16

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 53:16

Yeah, and you can individually dive into any one of those, just like I looked at the 2016 study you mentioned today, just to make sure you know is she full of it or is she like yeah, solid, and then the score. You know is she full of it or is she like, yeah, solid and then the score. I know you talk about Nutra score. Yeah, nutravor score. Nutravor score not being like a ranking or a judgment, it's just a formula based on nutrient densities. So folks are aware of that. It's a good way to understand if you're trying to put together multiple nutrients. It's just another reference of you know, density, not like this is better than this. So just to kind of me defending you from your stuff. So my listeners understand the context. All right, you mentioned some of those resources. Where do you want to send folks to to learn more about you?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 53:54

Homebase is Nutrivorcom. That's definitely the place with the most detailed maybe academic articles. That's where you can learn about nutrients, foods and how they impact our health. But from there, make sure to click on the join button in the top right menu, because that will link you both to my free weekly newsletter. Bite-sized information, so very like for the person who doesn't think that reading a 12,000 word article busting every myth about vegetable oil sounds like a fun Saturday afternoon. My feelings are not hurt if that's the case. So Bite Size is information is there. But that's also where you can link to my social media. I'm on Instagram, facebook Threads, pinterest, tiktok and YouTube, and I post different content on each platform. There's some overlap, obviously, but a lot of very specific to this platform stuff as well. So wherever you like to hang out online, come join me, and that's where you can also learn about the benefits of joining my Patreon.

Philip Pape: 54:51

And what's your saltiest platform, like where are you most?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 54:53

controversial, so to speak. Saltiest, I would say, I'm sassiest on TikTok.

Philip Pape: 55:02

Okay, I don't even use that one. But Okay, I don't even use that one.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 55:05

And I would say I'm most responsive on threads, so I'm most like in the comments answering questions on threads. So I would say those are the two places where, like, I really like to hang out online. That's where I spend time engaging with other people's content. So I would say those are probably. If I had to pick two, I'd pick those two.

Philip Pape: 55:25

Okay, and I had reposted something of yours too on mine, so if people go there, they can get to you too. So, all right, thank you so much for coming on. I do wish we had more time. There's a joke about a flat tire I got to deal with today. But thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 55:36

Sarah, oh, thank you.

Philip Pape: 55:37

Let's stay in touch you.

Stop Switching Exercises Until Changing THIS First (Tolerance Analysis) | Ep 240

Are you quick to abandon exercises that don't feel quite right? Maybe bench press bothers your shoulders, rows don't hit your back, or squats just feel unstable.

The typical advice is to "just find another exercise." But before you give up on a movement that could be great for your goals, there's an engineering solution you need to try.

You'll learn how the engineering concept of Tolerance Analysis reveals why small, systematic modifications can transform problematic exercises into some of your best movements - all while maintaining proper form principles.

Discover how to methodically test exercise variations, know exactly which variables you can adjust (and by how much), and determine when modifications will work versus when you truly need a different exercise.

Whether you're dealing with discomfort, poor muscle engagement, or exercises that just don't feel right, this episode gives you a systematic approach to optimize movements for YOUR body.

To build your best physique through proper exercise technique (including free form video checks!), join our free Facebook community at facebook.com/groups/witsandweights

Main Takeaways:

• Maintain fundamental movement principles while making small adjustments

• Use systematic testing to find the right variations for your body

• Small, precise modifications often make the biggest difference

• Know when to modify versus when to move on to different exercises

How Small Exercise Tweaks Can Transform Your Workouts

Frustrated with an Exercise? Don’t Quit Yet—Try This First

If you've ever found yourself struggling with a lift—like bench presses irritating your shoulders or squats feeling unstable—you might be tempted to swap it out for something else. But before you abandon a valuable exercise, consider an engineering-inspired approach: tolerance analysis. This method helps you systematically adjust movements while maintaining proper form and focusing on your goals, so you can get results without giving up on the exercise itself.

In Episode 240 of Wits & Weights, we explore how tolerance analysis, a precision method engineers use for design adjustments, can enhance your training. Here’s how this approach could be the key to getting more out of movements you thought were off-limits.

What Is Tolerance Analysis, and Why Should You Use It?

Tolerance analysis is a technique from engineering that defines an acceptable range for modifying a design without compromising its function. Think of it as a checklist for making small adjustments that keep the core function intact. In strength training, this applies well because certain elements of a lift, like the movement pattern, need to stay fixed, while others, like grip or stance, can vary slightly. By knowing what to tweak, you’ll find that “sweet spot” where the movement works for you instead of against you.

Fixed Elements vs. Modifiable Adjustments

Start by getting clear on what must remain constant in any lift to maintain its effectiveness:

• Movement Pattern: Stick to the fundamental motion, whether it's a squat or press.

• Target Muscles: Focus on the correct muscles that should be engaged.

• Joint Alignment: Keep joints in safe alignment, like a vertical bar path during squats.

These are the foundation of your lift, so keep them intact. Once these elements are in place, you can move on to adjusting other aspects.

1. Identify the Modifiable Variables

When you need to fine-tune a lift, start by experimenting with one of these variables at a time:

a. Grip Width

• For a bench press, adjusting your grip can change which muscles are targeted. A close grip hits the triceps, while a wider grip emphasizes the chest.

b. Hand Angle

• Small shifts in hand positioning, like using a neutral grip instead of a pronated one, can reduce strain, especially for those with shoulder issues.

c. Range of Motion

• If you experience discomfort at certain points of a lift (like at the bottom of a bench press), consider limiting the range of motion slightly to avoid joint stress.

d. Tempo and Speed

• Slowing down the eccentric (lowering) phase or pausing at the bottom can enhance control, prevent injury, and provide better muscle engagement. For example, pausing during a squat or bench can build joint resilience.

2. Test One Adjustment at a Time

Just as an engineer would, focus on changing only one thing at a time:

1. Try a grip adjustment on the bench press, like narrowing the grip to alleviate shoulder stress.

2. Observe the impact on comfort, stability, and muscle engagement, and document the outcome.

Isolating one variable allows you to zero in on what works and ensures that the exercise still feels natural without losing the intended benefits.

3. Know When It’s Time to Change Exercises

If you’ve exhausted your adjustment options and the lift still feels uncomfortable or ineffective, it may be time to try a similar but different exercise. For example, if bench pressing continues to aggravate your shoulders despite adjustments, consider switching to an incline press or using dumbbells. Recognizing your limits is crucial to prevent injury and maintain consistent progress.

The Impact of Small Adjustments

Tiny changes, like stance or grip, can have an outsized impact on how a movement feels. With tolerance analysis, you’ll find options you hadn’t considered before, making lifts you once avoided feel accessible and even enjoyable.

So, before scrapping an exercise, give this framework a try. You may find that the right tweaks make it not only doable but effective, letting you keep progressing toward your goals.

Key Takeaway

By using tolerance analysis to make minor but impactful adjustments, you can keep movements effective without compromising technique. When you stay patient, adjust systematically, and track results, you’ll open up new possibilities for each lift, unlocking gains you didn’t know were possible.

If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to hit follow and leave a review on Wits & Weights. Until next time, keep using your wits, lift those weights, and remember—sometimes, a small tweak makes all the difference.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're struggling with an exercise that just isn't quite working maybe bench press bothers your shoulders, rows don't engage your back properly or squats don't feel stable and you're thinking about abandoning it completely for a different movement hold up. There's an engineering approach that could save that exercise while maintaining perfect form, and today I'm revealing how engineers use tolerance analysis to make precise adjustments to complex systems, and how you can apply this same method to modify exercises without compromising proper technique. Get ready to learn a systematic approach to exercise modification that will unlock better gains for movements that you thought you couldn could do. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape. Now, when an exercise isn't working perfectly, the easy answer is let's switch to something else. Let me just give up and try something else. But what if you could systematically modify that movement, while maintaining proper form and principles of movement, to make it work exactly as intended, so you don't have to abandon it? Today, we're exploring how engineers use tolerance analysis to make precise adjustments within acceptable ranges. Again, you don't have to be an engineer to understand this stuff. I really try to simplify it for you and show you how to use these frameworks to optimize exercise and exercise selection, even when it's not quite clicking for you right now, as always, before we get into it. If you're enjoying the show, if you want more content on building muscle, losing fat, like today's engineering approach, and you're not gonna find this anywhere else, go ahead and hit the follow button right now. It will help more people find the show, but also ensure that you never miss an episode. All right.

Philip Pape: 1:59

So what is the problem we're talking about today? It's something I see all the time with my clients, but I've experienced it myself, having come through shoulder recovery over the last year and wondering can I even do this movement? And, if so, do I need to modify it? Because we don't want to be in pain, we don't want to feel like we can't make progress, and so when an exercise isn't working perfectly, most people usually fall into one of three traps. They either keep forcing themselves to do it anyway, even though they're not getting results and that could be dangerous if it's even causing pain, for example or they start randomly trying all sorts of modifications. All at once, they change a whole bunch of variables their grip, their stance, their angle and they don't really have a plan for that or, most commonly, they just give up and switch to a different exercise. So the real issue is not the fundamental movement pattern itself.

Philip Pape: 2:52

We're going to assume that your strength training for progressive overload, for progressive loading, and you have a decent understanding of how to lift weights and you understand the value of proper form, proper form principles, like maintaining a vertical bar path when you're squatting, or engaging your back instead of your arms when you're rowing or doing a pull down. These are universal principles. They are not negotiable. The problem is finding the right variation within those principles that works for you and your body right now, at this moment. Don't get frustrated or discouraged.

Philip Pape: 3:23

This is where the approach I'm going to share today is going to come in to help you. It's called tolerance analysis. Now, in engineering, tolerance analysis determines the acceptable range for modifying a product or item or design while maintaining the core principles or core specs, core specifications. Right, think about if you had to make a critical part for an engine. The width might need to be exactly 10 millimeters, because that's an important criteria, but the height could vary within certain limits without affecting performance. So the same concept applies perfectly to exercise modification.

Philip Pape: 3:59

Some aspects of a movement are fixed right, like the vertical bar path in a squat. We want that to be non-negotiable. In fact, even having that midfoot center of gravity, you know, within a tiny tolerance, those are the core specifications that we don't change. But other elements have ranges where you can modify them, and so the key is understanding which is which and then how far you can adjust those, while keeping the exercise true to its intended purpose and getting what you want out of it right. Like when you squat. Chances are you're trying to get bigger legs and it may be a specific muscle group quads, hams, you know, glutes but that's that's the purpose of it. So let's just break down systematically how to modify exercises using this framework.

Philip Pape: 4:42

All right, first, you have to be crystal clear on the parts that don't change what is the movement pattern you're going for? Which muscles should be engaged and triggered and targeted? What say joint alignments have to be maintained, right, if you're doing a hinge, trying to do a deadlift. There's a principle there that is a non-negotiable. So you've got that in place right. Let's say it's a um.

Philip Pape: 5:10

Let's go with a bench press right, because I've had shoulder issues and a lot of you listening probably have issues with your shoulder. When it comes to bench press, what are you trying to do? Well, you're probably trying to target the pecs right, the chest muscles, but also the triceps, and you know it depends on the grip and everything else what you're going to target. But there are a lot of variables that you can adjust and still get incredible growth in those few areas that you're going for with the bench press. And so what can you adjust? That's what we have to identify. So with most exercises, you have a few variables to work with. You have grip width.

Philip Pape: 5:47

So think about let's focus on the bench press. You could go with kind of the standard grip, which is a fairly wide grip but not super wide. It's wide enough where your forearms are vertical at the bottom, all right. But we can go narrow, which you see with a close grip, bench press, hence the name. It's gonna target the triceps. You can go much wider, which is more like a power lifting kind of width which shortens the range of motion. So that that's one thing you could change width, and that applies to presses, that applies to pulls, like you could change width on a lot of exercises.

Philip Pape: 6:17

The next variable is your angle of your hands. So think about we often don't even think about our hands. We were like, okay, it's a bench press, it's a straight bar, so my hands are just going to be facing forward, which is effectively pronated. If you were standing up, that's what it's called facing forward. But what if you used a multi-grip bar that lets you have a neutral grip? Right? What if you use a pull-up bar that lets you have a neutral grip? What if you use a trap bar for your rows instead of a barbell to have a neutral grip and for shoulder issues? That can be a huge difference. Just that slight change. What about a lat pull-down? Slight change. What about a lat pulldown? Look at all the attachments you could have for lat pulldown. You don't have to pull down with a pronated grip. You can have a neutral grip pulldown or even a supine like slightly underhand, slightly angled grip with these special attachments. You know the V grips and such that have different angles. There's a lot of different angles you can work with without changing anything else how far you move through the range of motion.

Philip Pape: 7:15

And I say it that way because there is a full range of motion and if you're going for the normal traditional movement. You want the full range of motion. Get the most muscle group muscle engaged, muscle fibers engaged through the lengthened and shortened parts of the muscle. But you might not find that super comfortable for certain movements. Take bench press again If you've got shoulder issues, the very bottom of the muscle. But you might not find that super comfortable for certain movements. Take bench press again If you've got shoulder issues. The very bottom of the movement might be so much of a rotation on your shoulder, there's too much stress there. And so that's where you can say, okay, should I come down almost to that level, but not quite, by using pins in the rack right, more of a rack press than a full press? Should I use a pause at the bottom? Actually, that's a different variable. Let's hold on that. Should I use a slingshot? So it takes some of the load at the very bottom, knowing that I still get to push through the sticking point and work the pecs.

Philip Pape: 8:06

So think about range of motion. You know something like a what do you call it? A barbell row. You know traditional row is fairly bent over. You pull back with your back, um, but you can come up to a higher angle and do more like, like uh, what is it called Yates row where, um, it kind of changes the range of motion a bit as well in the angle. So that's another variable.

Philip Pape: 8:28

Then we have the speed or the tempo, and here you have tons of options. My two favorite options are pause, okay, pause at the bottom of the movement. So pause at the bottom of a squat, a bench, pause at the bottom of anything. Pause at the bottom of a bicep curl. It actually makes a massive difference. It makes it harder, yes, meaning you're going to have to drop the weight, but don't let your ego get in the way, because it could give you much more growth by doing that. Pause and protect your joints and tendons. So think about that.

Philip Pape: 8:57

We also have another way to modify tempo is slowing down the eccentric and exploding on the concentric, like when you're doing dynamic effort movement or compensatory type acceleration, or just just don't get hung up in all the terms. Let's just say a bench press. You come down nice and easy to the chest, you pause for a good one, two count and then you explode up. You might find that feels great on your shoulder, right? Let's say, doing a seated overhead press using a multi-grip bar, right? See, you can get creative and combine these in any different way, but I would only change one thing at once. What else can you change? Your stance width, you can change your stance width, or, on the squat, you can change the heel raise If you're wearing squat shoes or putting plates under your heel. I was trying to help somebody with a front squat and they were trying to front squat barefoot and I said let's just throw some rise under the heels, either standing on plates or wearing squat shoes. And all of a sudden I was like, oh great, now the bar isn't trying to pull me forward, it feels much more comfortable and now I can do the movement. All right. So it's a lot of different things that you can change without actually changing the fundamental movement pattern. I think that's incredibly powerful. It really is. Those are your modifiable specifications. All right, now, when you have that, instead of being overwhelmed.

Philip Pape: 10:19

This is where the engineering mindset comes in Don't change multiple things at once. You want to isolate one variable Again, just like an engineer would isolate one thing at a time. So, going back to the bench, press right. The core principle here is maintaining that consistent bar path with stable, tight shoulders, a slight arch, feet driven into the ground, right, all of those are going to be fixed. And then you change one thing I'm going to bring my grip closer, or I'm going to keep the grip with the same, but I'm going to switch to a multi-grip bar and have a neutral handle and try that and see how it feels, see what the difference feels like. Do it in your warmup both ways and just see how it feels. And then know that you might have to reset a bit on the load, because it's kind of a new movement to your body, but it's a sort of variety that can actually help quite a bit and might translate to the main movement pattern and make it feel better as well in some cases.

Philip Pape: 11:18

Okay, so this requires a little patience, a little experimentation. You know, starting with a small change and keeping everything else the same, and then paying attention. Is your shoulder discomfort relieved, while you're actually able to get the movement in? What about an incline instead of a flat? What about a steeper incline, right? So there's a lot of things that you can change. Make sure to write it down, make sure to log what's happening. Note it in your notebook or app for your workouts. Find that sweet spot where the movement feels better but still accomplishes its intended purpose.

Philip Pape: 11:51

Now the critical piece here is you need to know when you've reached the limit of that modification. Sometimes, despite your best effort, you've made all these changes, it doesn't solve the root movement problem or it starts to compromise form. That's when you have to admit hey, maybe I just want to switch to a different exercise. Maybe I do, maybe I just do want to have a completely different exercise. And in the case of bench press, like going from a bench to a incline, that's technically a different exercise, right, even though they're kind of different angles of the same thing. But you've got to be open to those kinds of more dramatic changes if needed, right. Sometimes you have to redesign the system rather than just modify the piece.

Philip Pape: 12:31

Now, the fascinating thing about this approach that I've been actually using a lot lately. I've been thinking how do I change my grip width, how do I maybe different straps that I'm using, equipment that I'm using? It reveals that small, precise adjustments actually can make a huge difference. They weren't feeling it and all we did is we. We changed the hand angle right, or we adjust the the shoes or um chain, even changed a cue. We were, that's more of a form issue and that tiny change made the difference, and now something that they dreaded and did not look forward to now becomes potentially a cornerstone of that muscle development group. You know, like back development, whatever it is. Like back development, whatever. It is Not reinventing, but finding the variation that allows you to perform it as intended. And that's it. That's it for today. That's really what I want to tell you is think about the creative ways that you can modify your exercises to keep using the same movement patterns.

Philip Pape: 13:29

And, of course, if you found value in today's episode again and you want more content, please hit the follow button and let other people know. If you want to go an extra step and support me, I would love a five-star rating and review in Apple or Spotify. Not enough people do that, even if they follow the podcast, and if you're a super fan, or even a somewhat fan, and you love it and you think it's worth sharing with others, please go ahead and leave a review. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that sometimes the perfect exercise is just a small modification away. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The Lifter’s Guide to BFR Training for Muscle Growth, Rehab, and Recovery | Ep 239

Are you curious about blood flow restriction (BFR) training but unsure how to get results? Or have you tried it and felt it fell short of expectations?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives into a complete, practical guide to incorporating BFR training for maximum muscle growth. He breaks down the science and technique behind BFR, sharing tips on equipment selection, limb placement, and programming that ensure your BFR efforts pay off. Plus, he has a free, downloadable guide on BFR training with protocols, exercise examples, and templates you can start using today.

💪 Download your free Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Training guide or go to witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:59 What is BFR training?
6:40 Equipment and cuff setup for safe, effective BFR training
11:58 Key mistakes to avoid and recommended rep protocol
16:45 Integrating BFR as a supplement to heavy lifting
20:45 Recovery benefits and advanced applications for BFR
23:27 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download your free Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Training guide or go to witsandweights.com/free

The Ultimate Lifter’s Guide to Blood Flow Restriction Training for Muscle Growth

Blood flow restriction (BFR) training has been making waves in the fitness community as a game-changer for muscle growth, rehab, and recovery. In this post, we'll explore how to effectively incorporate BFR into your training routine, addressing common mistakes, the science behind it, and how it can complement your existing workout strategy. If you're looking to enhance your gains while reducing joint stress, you’re in the right place.

What is Blood Flow Restriction Training?

Blood flow restriction training involves using specialized cuffs or bands to partially restrict blood flow to your limbs while performing resistance exercises. This technique allows you to lift significantly lighter weights—typically 20-30% of your one-rep max—while still stimulating muscle hypertrophy. By creating metabolic stress within the muscle, BFR training can help you achieve similar muscle-building results to traditional heavy lifting but with less strain on your joints and central nervous system.

Why Does BFR Training Work?

BFR training leverages the body’s physiological responses to lighter loads. When you restrict blood flow during exercise, it leads to the accumulation of metabolic byproducts, which signal your muscles to grow. This method can also decrease the risk of injury, making it particularly beneficial for those recovering from injuries or looking to maintain muscle mass during deload phases. In essence, it’s a strategic way to enhance your training without compromising your body’s integrity.

Setting Up for Success: Equipment and Execution

To get started with BFR training, having the right equipment is crucial. Avoid cheap elastic bands that can’t provide consistent pressure. Instead, invest in high-quality BFR cuffs, like the ones from Smart Tools, which can be accurately inflated to the recommended limb occlusion pressures. For arms, aim for 50-60% of your limb occlusion pressure (LOP), and for legs, 70-80%. Start on the lower end if you’re new to this technique to ensure comfort and effectiveness.

Common Mistakes in BFR Training

1. Using Too Much Weight: A common pitfall is letting your ego take the reins. Stick to the prescribed light weights—this isn’t the time to impress anyone at the gym.

2. Insufficient Training Volume: Follow the classic BFR protocol of 30-15-15-15 reps with short rest intervals. This volume is essential for maximizing muscle gains.

3. Overusing BFR: Don’t replace all your lifts with BFR. Use it as a complement to your heavy lifting, especially for accessory or isolation movements.

4. Improper Exercise Selection: Focus on isolation exercises like bicep curls, leg extensions, and tricep extensions. BFR is most effective with these types of movements rather than compound lifts.

Programming BFR into Your Routine

Integrating BFR training into your existing workout plan can be seamless if you know when and how to use it. Here are three optimal scenarios:

• As a Finisher: Add BFR to your workout as a finisher after completing your main lifts. This is a great way to enhance muscle pump and volume without additional strain.

• During a Deload: Substitute some of your regular lifts with BFR to maintain muscle stimulus while allowing your body to recover.

• When Dealing with Joint Issues: If you have nagging pains or are recovering from an injury, BFR can allow you to maintain training intensity without further stressing the affected joints.

By following these guidelines and incorporating BFR into your training two to three times a week, you can enjoy the benefits of enhanced muscle growth, improved recovery, and less joint strain.

Conclusion

Blood flow restriction training is a powerful tool for any lifter looking to maximize gains while minimizing injury risk. Remember that it’s just one part of a comprehensive training strategy, and when used correctly, it can be incredibly effective. For a deeper dive into the protocols and tips discussed, don’t forget to download my free comprehensive guide on BFR training.

In this episode, I provide a complete guide to using blood flow restriction training to maximize your muscle growth, whether you're working through an injury or just looking to enhance your routine. Don’t miss out—click the link in the show notes to grab your free BFR training guide!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been curious about BFR training but aren't sure exactly how to implement it, or maybe you've tried using blood flow restriction but haven't seen the muscle building results you expected. Today's episode is for you, because I am breaking down exactly how to incorporate BFR training into your program for maximum muscle growth, from selecting the right exercises and equipment to programming it alongside your heavy training. You'll learn why so many lifters get subpar results from BFR and, more importantly, how to avoid those mistakes. Whether you're dealing with an injury, looking to add training volume without beating up your joints, or just want another tool in your muscle building toolbox, this episode will show you exactly how to make BFR training work for you. You exactly how to make BFR training work for you. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape. I recently had BFR expert Nick Colosi on the show this was a few weeks back, episode 235, to discuss the science behind blood flow restriction training, and everybody really loved the episode. The response was incredible. It's not something I had talked about before and many of you wanted to learn more about exactly how to implement BFR into your own training. We kind of teased you here and there in the conversation with Nick, but today I wanted to give you exactly that a complete, practical guide to using BFR training for maximum muscle growth. If you are already lifting weights. We'll explore everything from proper setup and exercise selection to how to program it alongside your regular training. Because that's what it is it is a compliment. It is not intended to replace your primary lifting. Plus, I'm going to share the biggest mistakes that I see lifters make with BFR and, of course, how to avoid them. And to go along with today's episode, I've put together a free, comprehensive, downloadable guide called Blood Flow Restriction Training. Just for you, it includes detailed protocols, exercise examples, programming templates that you can start using right away. To get your free copy, just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. Again, that's a free BFR training guide. There's a link in the show notes or you could always go to witsandweightscom slash free. Find it there, along with a ton of other guides that keeps getting expanded over the years that I add to it.

Philip Pape: 2:21

All right, let's break down the BFR training into four segments today. First, I'm going to quickly recap what are we talking about? What is BFR? Why does it work? Especially if you missed the interview with Nick, of course I'm going to link that episode in the show notes so you can go and listen to that. Second, I'm going to go over the proper setup and execution, the technical details that you have to get right when you are using these. I've been using them personally for about three years, so I have quite a bit of experience. Third, I'll share the common mistakes the most common mistakes that I see lifters make with BFR and how to avoid them. And then, finally, I'm going to dig into some of the programming so that you can incorporate BFR systematically into your existing routine. All right, let's start with a quick refresher For those who might have missed my interview with Nick or just want some more details on how this works.

Philip Pape: 3:07

Bfr training blood flow restriction training involves using specialized cuffs. There are bands that you can tighten around your limbs, but I don't recommend them because they are hard to get the right pressure. So usually you want some sort of cuffs, and there are multiple brands on the market. I'm going to tell you which one I use, and the idea is those cuffs partially restrict blood flow, while you're then able to exercise with much lighter weights. And I do mean much lighter to the point where if you've got an ego, you tend to be a little bit embarrassed when somebody sees you hammer curling. You know 20 pounders. I'm talking to guys you know my size who are used to curling. You know 50, 60, 70 pounds in an arm. You go way down from that. So wherever you normally lift, it's going to be a small fraction of that because of the limb occlusion is what it's called 20 to 30% of your one rep max. If you need numbers Again, you might be thinking like how is it possible to then build muscle with such light weights?

Philip Pape: 4:02

You talk all about heavy lifting and lower rep ranges and you talk about strength. You know building strength. So here's where it gets interesting, because I think this is all consistent with what we know about mechanical tension, lifting heavy training close to failure and by close I mean two to three reps or more from failure. We don't often have to go all the way to failure, but here's how it works. From failure. We don't often have to go all the way to failure, but here's how it works by restricting blood flow while keeping the weight low, we create metabolic stress in the muscle far beyond what you would get without that restriction. And then this triggers many of the same muscle building signals you'd get from heavy lifting, but without say the joint stress and the central nervous system fatigue. Now, some of those things are beneficial, not necessarily joint stress per se, but central nervous system fatigue, neuromuscular adaptation all of these are important for heavy lifting, which is why I never tell you to replace heavy lifting with this at all, and Nick didn't either when I interviewed him last time.

Philip Pape: 4:59

But think of it like this when you do a heavy set of squats, you're creating mechanical tension, right, and you're creating it on that, what some people call effective reps, but they're the reps closer to failure. And we're learning more and more. I think Michael Zordos just released the huge meta-analysis that you could be pretty far from failure and still get hypertrophy and still get pretty good results, but it doesn't necessarily give you the most results in terms of strength as well. That's why you still use the range of two to three reps from failure. So when you're doing a heavy set of squats, let's say three sets of five, you know it shouldn't be a grind necessarily, but maybe the last rep of the last set is a grind, but for the most part you're getting close to failure, but not all the way, and that's one pathway to muscle growth.

Philip Pape: 5:46

Now, blood flow restriction, bfr, creates metabolic stress, which is kind of another pathway to muscle growth, but it's still related to the tension piece and what it does is it traps metabolites in the muscle, and there are a lot of theories that you know. Is it cause and effect? Like? Are the metabolites that you're creating in your muscle, lactate, for example, causing the hypertrophy? Are they just a side effect? But we do know that training in that way and this is why we like low reps and moderate reps and different types of tension for different types of exercises and movements to lead to gains through the different mechanisms that lead to gains and putting them all together. This is an argument for variety that lead to gains and putting them all together. This is an argument for variety, if I want to put it that way. This is an argument for variety, not for variety's sake, but to kind of make sure you're taking advantage of the various mechanisms that lead to strength and muscle gain. And here we're primarily talking about muscle, we're talking about hypertrophy. So that's kind of the basics Now I want to segue now into the technical details, that kind of make or break the results you get when you use bfr.

Philip Pape: 6:46

So you're not wasting your time. And I think the equipment is the most important thing to start, because with bad equipment you're just Setting yourself up for either injury or just not getting the results you want, or it's going to be super uncomfortable but not actually work. So I'm talking about those cheap elastic bands that you see on amazon. Okay, and I have a couple of pairs of those that I used for a while and I'm glad I went through that experience because then I realized how inaccurate it was. They're problematic because you cannot measure or control the pressure right and then they loosen up over time and your arms are at different pressures and maybe you can over-tight tighten it and so on. So I personally use and recommend BFR cuffs that you can either pump up to an accurate pressure measure in some other way or they automatically pump up right. They're definitely more expensive. They're electronic devices that have gone through some level of testing but they are safer. They are safer and they're more effective, which is what we need when we're lifting weights.

Philip Pape: 7:45

Really, that's the foundation of anything we do in the your limbs, your upper arms or your upper thighs, period. Do not put them on your forearms, do not put them on your calves. That is mistake number one that I see people make. I see way too many YouTube videos and shorts with people doing calf raises and they're placed just above the calves. And I think kind of what Nick said on the episode was it's all the same plumbing and you're actually increasing your chance of nerve damage by putting them further down, you know, distally on the limb. Put them proximally, at the very top. I shouldn't use those words because you're going to say, well, proximal to the calves is near the calves, okay, forget that, put them at the top of the limb.

Philip Pape: 8:41

So, upper arm, upper thigh, so if the arms place them as high as possible without hitting your armpit, that's all it is. I mean, basically, your armpit is a natural stop. And then for your legs, get them high as you can on your thigh and guess what, your groin, your crotch, is a natural stop. So get them pretty darn close to there and you're good. And then the pressure is crucial and that's why I like the auto-inflating cuffs you want. Otherwise your limbs are going to turn purple, you're going to completely cut off blood flow and it's not what we're going for. And, don't worry, you have a lot of tolerance on that. I mean a significant amount of tolerance on that.

Philip Pape: 9:13

So, if you're using proper cuffs, like the ones I use and yes, I use the one from Smart Tools, and Nick is the founder of Smart Tools, who I interviewed last week, but just so you know the order of events here, I've been using their cuffs for years. I then asked them to be on the show. They then sent me a pair of cuffs after that, which, of course, I'm not going to say no to that. So, yeah, I'm a shill for them, but I also use them. It's kind of like some of the other products I use that I promote because I use them. So I think it's perfectly aligned and these are the best ones on the market. Now they have different versions. Their latest version is quite expensive. I'll be totally honest, it's quite expensive. So they have a version three that came before that. I think they're version four now and it was version three. But whatever the previous version was is significantly lower in cost and I think they may even drop the price when the new one came out, and they're just as effective. They're just a little older, so the way that they get set up and everything is a little bit slightly more clumsy. But I used them for years and I thought they were great. Okay.

Philip Pape: 10:08

So, using cuffs like that, if you find others that auto-inflate, that you respect the company, you think they are tested properly, go for it right. And once you've got those cuffs, you're going to use about 50 to 60% LOP limb occlusion pressure for the arms. So the arms are 50 to 60% and then 70 to 80% for the legs. And if you're new to this, I would start on the lower end of those ranges because it could feel quite uncomfortable.

Philip Pape: 10:35

For me personally, the legs almost hurt. I know, I know they're not. It doesn't actually get to the point of pain, it's just so tight. It's like when you get your blood pressure and you're like, is this supposed to keep inflating? And then you're like, okay, I get it, cause it right around that point it's a. It starts to stop the calibration and say, okay, now we're at your limit, now we're going to dial it back to what percentage you want. So when it's calibrating it might feel uncomfortably tight, but then the actual limb occlusion pressure you select is going to be a little bit backed off from that. So 50 to 60% for arms, 70 to 80% for legs and start lower and build up to it. So that's kind of the details on that.

Shonnetta: 11:14

Hi, my name is Shawnetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do.

Philip Pape: 11:59

Now I want to talk about common mistakes and then what to do about those, the solutions to those mistakes and these will improve your result. So the first one is going too heavy. All right, the first mistake is having an ego and thinking that, okay, I'm just doing bicep curls, so I'm going to go almost as heavy as I normally do. Don't do that. Don't do that. Remember, we are talking 20 to 30% of your one rep max. So if you can curl, let's say, 40 pound dumbbells for your working sets, you might use 10 pounders or 15 pounders for BFR. Seriously, I'm telling you, you got to check your ego at the door with this stuff. If anybody asks you to say, yeah, I'm doing rehab or I'm doing a warmup, okay, not that it matters, but, guys, you know what I'm talking about. Okay, the amazing thing is when you do that and I actually recommend going slightly lighter than heavier, because the protocol we're going to talk about is going to slam you because of the number of reps and you'd be better off starting that way and getting all the reps and feeling accomplished and then knowing what you can go up to, rather than going too high and then be like man, I can only get you know, half the reps I'm supposed to get, it is going to feel plenty heavy by the end of your set. In fact, just this morning I did hammer curls and I was right at the limit using 20 pounders and I actually fell a few reps shy on the final set because it was just so. There was such a massive pump and it was so tight. It felt great but also miserable in a way, and I'm being honest because this is not for everyone and it's not easy Like you think. Oh, lightweights, it's going to be a walk in the park. It's a different kind of hard, that's the way I can put it. It's a different kind of hard. Okay, so that's the first mistake is going too heavy. The second mistake is not using enough volume, and so if you stick to the classic protocol, you'll be fine.

Philip Pape: 13:45

The classic protocol is 30, 15, 15, 15, 30, 15, 15, 15, with 30 seconds rest between sets, super easy to remember, and that first set of 30, 30 is a decent amount of reps, but it still might feel a little bit easy, depending, right, if it actually starts to feel hard at rep 20, you may have selected too high of a weight. Go back to mistake number one and fix that. But it should feel kind of easy but a little bit hard, and then you keep going and by the final set of 15, you're going to feel it Like I said this morning. I on the third set I was like man, I could barely get the 15. And on the fourth set I think I got nine or 10 reps which I was fine with Like it was. I knew for sure that I had trained basically to failure. And they say you're not really supposed to go that close to failure. It should be where you could get all the reps with a little bit left in the tank. But we are talking isolation work, so it's probably not a big deal to kind of experiment. So that's the second one is not getting enough volume. So just follow the protocol 30, 15, 15, 15 with 30 seconds in between. And, by the way, when you're wearing the cuffs that I recommend the smart tools you could do a continuous mode or an intermittent mode. A continuous mode would be they stay inflated the whole time, so that's like hardcore all the way. The intermittent mode is they inflate for the set and then when you tell it the set's done, it will deflate for the rest and then reinflate. You just got to make sure to tell it to start again a few seconds ahead of time, so it inflates by the time the 30 seconds is done.

Philip Pape: 15:11

All right, the third mistake is trying to do all of your lifting with BFR. Okay, don't do that either. Don't think okay, I'm just going to switch everything to BFR. It's going to be a walk in the park and I'm going to get just as much gains. Because they just told me that you can get the same response as a heavy lift but with lighter weights. And the real answer is, first of all, that's not entirely true. Right, it's more of a proxy for that in terms of the metabolic stress, but it doesn't replace the other benefits of heavy lifting, and we talked about that on the podcast with Nick. So I would definitely check it out for deep dive on that subject.

Philip Pape: 15:45

But this is a compliment to your regular training. This is not a replacement for your training. You use it strategically for accessory or isolation work or, say, when you need a deload or when you've got a nagging injury or some pain, and you're able to work with lighter weights without the pain, and now you can add some difficulty to it with the cuffs. That's how I like it. So that's the third mistake. And then the fourth mistake is improper exercise selection. Bfr works best with isolation exercises, especially arm and legs, but it will work distally for your pecs, say on an incline bench, for example, or for your calves on a calf raise. But think isolation exercises, bicep curls, tricep extensions, leg extensions, walking lunges I mean, nick talked about all the use cases where you can do like Bulgarian split squats, walking lunges, just walking in general, or riding on a bike while wearing the cuffs. You can get very creative. So those are some of the mistakes people make and I think it's important to understand what not to do.

Philip Pape: 16:47

And then, finally, I want to talk about how you incorporate BFR into your routine. How do you program with it? And the first question to ask yourself is when should I use it? And I think there are three scenarios. The first is as a finisher after your main lifts. Right, I love finishers because it kind of makes lifting a little more fun. You've got lengthened partials, you've got myoreps, you've got rest pause, you've got all these fun ways to add finishers where you're just adding a little more volume without much stress, right, that's, you know, not only to get a pump, but really to get a little extra hypertrophy volume on the muscle group. So adding BFR as a finisher is a great idea.

Philip Pape: 17:23

Today I did standard bicep, barbell, bicep curls, you know, heavy, like sets of four to eight and then eight to 12. And then I switched to BFR for hammer curls with 20 pounders, where I normally would do the hammer curls with like 50 or 60 at lower reps. So that's a good way to do it. That's scenario one. Scenario two is during a deload, right During a deload, where you're dropping the intensity and you're dropping the volume, think creatively about okay, maybe I'll switch some of my normal exercises that I've been using and just switch them to BFR. That effectively deloads you on those lifts.

Philip Pape: 17:58

And then the third scenario is when dealing with joint issues, and I'm not going to define specifically for you what that might be. It could be a nagging pain or injury, it could be a recovery from surgery. For you what that might be, it could be a nagging pain or injury, it could be a recovery from surgery. It could be just too much stress on the joint fatigue, things like that and you just want to reduce loading in that area. But keep getting the stimulus, keep training. I love that, because then you're saying, look, I'm not going to give up, I'm not just going to rest, I'm going to keep moving and getting the blood flow, I'm going to get the blood flow, and it's a nice compromise or a nice trade-off, I should say. So that's the three scenarios.

Philip Pape: 18:32

As a finisher, during deload or joint issues, and then for a typical four-day upper-lower split just very common type of program the vast majority of people tend to run would look like this. So, on an upper body day, after your main pressing and pulling movements, I would pick a bicep and a tricep exercise, and that would be great for BFR, right, and maybe you want an extra one or two in there without BFR. That's fine, depending on how much time you have. But I would pick one of those isolation movements with biceps or triceps, do with BFR. Maybe it's overhead extensions, line tricep extensions, barbell curls, all the types of curls, so those would be a good idea there.

Philip Pape: 19:08

You could, of course, also incorporate it with like, say, decline push-ups or incline presses with light weights and dumbbells. For example, on lower body days, after your squats, after your deadlifts, after your big movements and accessories, I would choose one quad-focused and one hamstring-focused isolation exercise. So that could be leg extensions, hamstring curls. You might see people doing these with squats. I'm not a huge fan of that. Only because you probably should be getting your squats through main lifts that are heavier and because you tend to have to do a lot of reps with the squats, it ends up being more like a CrossFit workout with a lot of eccentric loading that makes you pretty damn sore the next day, and sometimes that's not what you want. You know, when we're lifting for strength and muscle you don't want to be overly sore, but I'm not discouraging experimenting with it.

Philip Pape: 20:01

Now, the other piece here is cardio. You can incorporate your BFR with cardio, like pushing a prowler going for a walk, and it should up the stress just a little bit without impeding recovery, and kind of enhance the rigor and the difficulty of the cardio and, should you know, burn some more calories. Give you a little bit extra cardio work. There's some correlation with a higher VO2 max for folks that wear BFR. It's a lot of fun ways to do this, and so get creative.

Philip Pape: 20:27

Again, use Google as your friend, reach out to me if you want more specific ideas, and I would say, go ahead and use it two to three times per week per muscle group. I mean no more than that really. I would pick one upper day and one lower day, and then maybe one other day where you use it at the most, and any more than that is probably not necessary and it could impede recovery and it could be taken away from your traditional lifting as well. So got to balance it in there All right. Now, we've talked a lot about building muscle today, but I've also found that BFR is incredible for recovery. Right, and that's one of the main reasons BFR even exists is for rehab and recovery. So you've had a tough training session, like a heavy leg day. The next day, doing some very light BFR work could actually reduce soreness and improve blood flow to the muscles. So think about ways to do that.

Philip Pape: 21:11

A lot of pro athletes use it for this purpose. When I talked to Nick, you know he worked with LeBron James on that, and if you download my guide, you'll see that the cover photo is, with copyright permission, a picture of the King right, king James using it on his legs to recover and he's reading a book or something on a stationary bike, and that's what Nick mentioned. Right, is that there's something super powerful about getting blood flow to the muscles after you've hit them hard, but without beating them up more, to kind of enhance that recovery. And then guess what that does? Is it when you get to the gym the next time you might feel even more fresh and recovered to be able to really hit it hard and get all those reps. Maybe push it a little more, maybe get a little stronger and build more muscle with your traditional lifting, and that's where the power is for this.

Philip Pape: 21:56

So, even if you hear critics talk about well, bfr is kind of you know it's, you don't need it. Like a lot of people say, it's unnecessary because you can just train normally, and there is some truth to that. But there are some other unique benefits to BFR, like recovery, that you might want to give a chance. That will help with your traditional lifting as well, not to mention the mental and the psychological aspect of the kind of variety and getting that pump. It's pretty cool, all right. So as we wrap up today's episode, let me emphasize that BFR training is a powerful tool, but it is only one tool in the toolbox, like anything we do. It's not magic. It's not going to replace heavy compound lifts, but when you use it correctly, it can help you build some muscle with a little bit less joint stress. It can maintain gains during deloads and it can enhance recovery. You don't have to use it, it's just another option. It's pretty cool. A lot of new studies being done on it, so keep an eye out for the literature.

Philip Pape: 22:49

If you have follow-up questions, reach out to me, send me a text message through the show notes and I'll tell you my thoughts. The key here with BFR is you've got to be safe, you've got to be consistent with it, you've got to implement it properly. So start with the guidelines we covered today. I really hope today was a complete guide and then the downloadable guide I made spells it out a little bit more detail so you can reference it. You can go back and say okay, what's the protocol again, and what did he say about limb occlusion pressure, what did he say about where to wear these and so on, and then, as always, track your results, see how you feel and respond and then adjust it based on how your body responds.

Philip Pape: 23:23

And if it doesn't work for you, you know you don't have to use it. So remember, if you want to implement everything we covered today, don't forget, go, grab your free copy of my blood flow restriction training guide. It includes the detailed protocols, the exercise examples and the programming templates that complement everything we discussed today. Just click the link in the show notes or visit witsandweightscom. Slash free Again. That's the BFR training guide, the link's in the show notes or witsandweightscom. All right, everybody, until next time, keep using those wits, lifting those weights, and remember sometimes the smartest way to train isn't just lifting the heaviest weights. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Injury-Resilient Training for Lifetime Strength and Muscle (Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum) | Ep 238

Are nagging injuries and joint pain holding back your progress in the gym? Are you concerned about lifting as you get older, or simply want to stay strong for life?

Philip (@witsandweights) connects with Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum, a seasoned powerlifter, coach, and physician. Together, they tackle the reality of aging and training, providing practical strategies to help you build a resilient body that can stand the test of time. Whether you're new to lifting or an experienced lifter facing setbacks, this conversation will equip you with the tools and confidence to train intelligently for years to come.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum is a powerhouse in the fitness and medical fields, holding an MD, and is ranked as one of the top 20 powerlifters worldwide. He co-founded Barbell Medicine, where he and his team integrate evidence-based practice with strength training, health promotion, and longevity coaching. Through his work, he has empowered lifters of all ages and experience levels to reach their goals with resilience and confidence.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:52 How to program for strength, injury prevention, and longevity in lifting
8:38 Avoiding overuse injuries and common training pitfalls
13:03 The role of variety in injury prevention
20:27 Debunking myths about heavy lifting and joint health
29:11 Understanding training load and soreness Vs. Injury
39:13 Managing fatigue to train effectively for longevity
43:54 Common causes of low-back fatigue and how to address it
50:15 Maintaining strength, realistic goals as you age, and progressive loading
56:19 Outro

Episode resources:

• Barbell Medicine podcast 

• Instagram: @jordan_barbellmedicine/ 

• X: @BarbellMedicine 

• Threads: @jordan_barbellmedicine 

Injury-Resilient Training for Lifetime Strength and Muscle

Are you worried that lifting heavy after 40 might be a ticking time bomb for your joints? Or maybe you're frustrated by nagging injuries slowing your progress? In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum, powerlifter-turned-physician and founder of Barbell Medicine, to uncover evidence-based strategies for bulletproofing your training as you age.

The Truth About Heavy Lifting and Joint Health

One of the most persistent myths in strength training is that heavy lifting inevitably leads to joint problems, especially as we age. Dr. Feigenbaum challenges this notion with compelling evidence: injury rates between powerlifters and bodybuilders are remarkably similar, suggesting that load itself isn't the primary risk factor. What matters more is proper preparation and appropriate progression.

The fear of injury often prevents people from starting or continuing strength training, with about 40% of people citing injury concerns as their reason for not exercising. However, the research shows that being insufficiently active carries its own risks – people who don't exercise experience similar rates of musculoskeletal complaints as those who do.

The Science of Progressive Loading

Rather than focusing on constantly increasing weights or volume (traditional progressive overload), Dr. Feigenbaum advocates for a more nuanced approach called progressive loading. This method emphasizes training hard enough to drive adaptation while staying within your current fitness capacity. The key is allowing these adaptations to occur before increasing loads.

Think of it as a "therapeutic index" for training – there's a sweet spot between the minimum effective dose for results and the maximum recoverable training load. The goal isn't to constantly push this upper limit but to maintain a buffer for sustainability. This approach becomes especially crucial as we age and need to balance progress with recovery.

Smart Exercise Selection for Longevity

Training variety emerges as a crucial factor for injury prevention and long-term progress. Dr. Feigenbaum recommends varying movement patterns within each lift category (squat, hinge, press, pull), potentially using different variations each training session. This variety serves two purposes: it helps distribute training stress across different tissues and improves motor learning.

For example, instead of doing the same back squat variation multiple times per week, you might rotate between:

• Traditional back squats

• Front squats

• Safety bar squats

• Bulgarian split squats

This variation doesn't mean compromising specificity – rather, it's about finding the right balance based on your goals and training experience.

Managing Training Load and Recovery

Recognizing the signs of overuse versus normal training stress becomes crucial for sustainable progress. Watch for decreasing performance over time, persistent soreness that's out of proportion to your training, reduced motivation, and joint-related complaints. These symptoms often indicate you're pushing beyond your recovery capacity.

Dr. Feigenbaum emphasizes that training should be about development, not testing. This means implementing auto-regulation strategies like monitoring daily readiness and adjusting training loads accordingly. The goal is to make training challenging enough to drive progress but not so demanding that it compromises recovery.

Setting Realistic Expectations After 40

While it's true that maintaining peak strength from your 20s and 30s into your 70s might not be realistic, this doesn't mean you can't continue making progress. The key is adjusting expectations and focusing on three evidence-based goals for long-term health:

1. Maximal strength development

2. Muscle hypertrophy

3. Cardiovascular fitness

By prioritizing these areas while managing training load appropriately, you can continue making meaningful progress well into your later years. The focus shifts from constant progression to maintaining capabilities and quality of life.

Practical Implementation

Success in long-term strength training comes down to consistency over intensity. Rather than trying to max out every session or constantly push your limits, focus on sustainable progress. Use RPE (Rate of Perceived Exertion) or RIR (Reps in Reserve) to guide intensity, and remember that not every session needs to be a personal record attempt.

For those wanting to implement these principles, start by assessing your current training program. Are you varying your exercises enough? Are you allowing adequate recovery between challenging sessions? Are you adjusting your training based on daily readiness? These questions can help guide you toward more sustainable training practices.

Remember: Training is about development, not testing. Focus on sustainable progress rather than constantly pushing your limits, and you'll be able to maintain strength and muscle for years to come.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a lifter in your 40s or beyond who's frustrated by nagging injuries slowing your progress, or you're worried that adding more weight to the bar might be a ticking time bomb for your joints and you want to bulletproof your training to be more resilient to injury, this episode is for you. Today I'm sitting down with Dr Jordan Feigenbaum, a powerlifter turned physician. Bridges the gap between heavy lifting and injury prevention. Powerlifter-turned-physician bridges the gap between heavy lifting and injury prevention. You'll discover why age isn't the limiting factor you think. It is how to program intelligently to build strength without breaking down, and the often overlooked recovery strategies that can add years to your lifting life. Whether you're battling chronic pain or just want to ensure you're still crushing it well into your golden years, the practical strategies you're about to learn will give you the confidence to train hard and stay healthy, no matter your age.

Philip Pape: 0:55

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are addressing injury prevention and longevity for lifters with Dr Jordan Feigenbaum. Jordan is both a seasoned strength coach and practicing physician. He holds an MD, is an elite power lifter with one of the top 20 totals of all time and has tons of experience coaching everyone from everyday gym goers to professional athletes.

Philip Pape: 1:24

Now, I personally learned about him through Barbell Medicine and the podcast of the same name, where he and his partner, austin, promote health. They promote performance, longevity, definitely with a focus on resistance training and evidence-based practice, which is why I wanted to invite him on the show Today. You're going to learn how to design your training to maximize strength gains while minimizing injury risk as you age. We'll explore the role of recovery in preventing overuse injuries, debunk some myths about lifting and joint health and give you strategies to build resilience into your training program. You'll discover how to balance intensity and volume for optimal progress, the connection between pain and tissue damage and practical ways to personalize your lifting for any limitations you might have. Jordan, it's an honor to have you on the show.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 2:07

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Philip Pape: 2:09

Yeah, man. So we want to talk about the, I'll say, the older lifting crowd today, which a lot of people I joke about with friends is over 40, right, like as soon as you hit 40 year old. Right, You're both a lifter and a doctor, which, sadly, is not a combination we see too often. I wish it were, and I'm sure you've seen many older lifters struggle with really wanting to push the heavier weights. They want to push the PRs. Some of it's ego, some of it is like we got started late, like I did, and we're trying to catch up, and there's this fear, or sometimes reality, of getting injured. So what, in your opinion, is the main differentiator between lifters who continue making progress safely over the decades and those who experience more interruptions related to, say, injury or joint health?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 2:52

Yeah, great question. Maybe we should answer some easy stuff first, like what's the meaning of life, or like you know what's the purpose.

Philip Pape: 2:58

I'd love to set a floor for this show man. Yeah, yeah, no.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 3:02

Yeah, it's interesting. Think about what sort of predicts you know, long-term, not only like just longevity, as far as being able to participate period, right, but then also like long-term success, because those are slightly different things. You know there's definitely benefits from just participation in exercise, resistance training, conditioning both of them ideally and then actually making progress within those two pursuits, particularly like improvements in maximal strength, improvements in VO2 max. So there's a difference. You want to do both of those things, so improve those things and do it for a long period of time. So, as far as things that predict success and longevity, certainly there's a large genetic component to both which, unfortunately, CRISPR is not yet. We can't do that. So not necessarily Unless you go, CRISPR is not yet we can't do that, so not necessarily going to China.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 3:46

Yeah, right, yeah, so maybe in the future that's going to be a modifiable factor. So genetics are certainly important. Your environment is certainly important, not only like opportunities to exercise but also just what's happening around you. So some social elements, conditioning wise, as far as is this a normal thing for people to engage in resistance training and formalized exercise or, you know, culturally, for example? So it definitely varies.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 4:11

But as far as things that actually most people can probably modify or at least start thinking about, likely has to do primarily with program design, and I you know when people hear that and they start thinking about okay, so I just need to focus on how do I lay out the elements of my programming? You know how far down the rabbit hole do we really need to go to give people actionable advice on what to do? And I think varies by degree, meaning that if you're relatively new, you don't need to have, you know, a PhD in exercise science or sports performance or anything like that to kind of make heads and tails of what the research says and take that away and actually do stuff in your own training. But there are a handful of maybe pillars if you want to call it that term, or heuristics that are useful. And I think the main things are we need to make sure that the training suits you or is fitted to you or individualized to you for your current level of fitness. So that's thing one. And so, unfortunately, when you look up programs that are available online, there are internet age, they're everywhere, which is great, because back when I started lifting that wasn't the case. If you looked up, like you know, lifting program or powerlifting program, you'd get a handful of results. And I'm not being you know, lifting program or powerlifting program, you'd get a handful of results. And I'm not being you know, not exaggerating this, it just wasn't out there. And now the Google return hundreds of thousands, if not millions of things.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 5:32

And so when you're writing a program for a general audience, for their consumption, you're going to you know it's like a bell curve, bell distribution. You're going to get a number of folks, but other folks will be underdosed and other folks will be overdosed and you're kind of just hoping for the best. So that's thing, you know. Pillar number one it's got to be suited to you, the individual, based on your current level of fitness, because that will predict what's your training tolerance, so how much exercise you can do and also your needs right. So those are two things that are related. Second thing is, after, making sure that it's appropriately dosed for the individual is going to be that it actually produces the outcomes that are desired.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 6:08

So if we think about this from like a health promotion standpoint you know, health span and maybe adding on to that lifespan there are a handful of things we have great evidence on that actually promote sort of improvements in health span, reducing the risk of disease, particularly the burden of chronic disease, developing new chronic disease, and then also improves quality of life, puts life in your years. Those would be things like maximal strength, which you could tack on muscular power. To that, those things are kind of related. Obviously, muscular hypertrophy another one of those evidence-based goals and then cardiorespiratory fitness. Now, that's a pretty short list of things, really. Three things, maybe four If you say strength and power are different, which, yeah, short list of things, you know. Really three things, maybe four If you say strength and power are different, which, yeah, the scientists in me definitely would want to make that distinction. But people are going to listen to this and they'll say, well, what about stretching? Or what about?

Philip Pape: 6:51

balance? Or what about mobility Agility?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 6:55

It's not that those things are unrelated to function so how well you can use your strength, for example, or how you interact with the environment it's just that they tend to be adequately addressed by programs that improve muscular strength through ways we typically test them. And I make that caveat because it is possible for me I could put you on a program that was completely isometric, for example, where your muscles don't actually contract and extend, You're just creating force in a fixed position where the muscle doesn't actually move, and I could say, look, you got stronger, but that's probably not doing anything for your range of motion. So anyway, if you got to get really specific with you would want to say, yeah, totally.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 7:32

So you'd want to improve dynamic strength, You'd want to improve muscular size, so muscle cross-sectional area, and you'd want to improve cardiorespiratory fitness, and so that means that the program has to be individualized or adjusted in order to produce those results for people. So when we look at the response of people to exercise interventions, you're going to have the extreme responders. Those are the people that we tend to see at the top of sport. Whatever they be, they just tend to respond super well, whether that's genetically predisposed to doing awesome. Slash the environment, slash other factors, nutrition factors, nutritionally, uh, and lifestyle wise sure, all of those are related. And then there's going to be this group of people that are termed non-responders, who you know in some studies, the short-term ones in particular. They actually lose strength, for example, or lose muscle size, and you're like how is that possible? Because they're actually exercising just not well suited to that program. So even if it was dosed in a way that they could currently tolerate, kind of met them where they're at, it wasn't enough or wasn't the right type of training to elicit the responses that we need to improve health and, ultimately, quality of life. So those two things right off the bat.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 8:37

And then, when we think about how to make sure that goes on for a long period of time, we really just want to avoid the major pitfall when it comes to those who will regularly participate in exercise, which are overuse injuries. Yes, you could go down the list and say, look, acute trauma accidents in the gym. You know the things of that nature. But the biggest source of you know injury when it comes to resistance training and even in cardiorespiratory fitness conditioning exercise, is going to be an overuse injury, which is exactly what it sounds like You're doing too much of the same thing at a load or intensity or, ultimately, a training volume. So a combination of all these factors that you can't currently tolerate and that tends to be predicted by the variety, or really lack thereof, in the program. So it's a person who only does back squats for their lower extremity you know squat pattern training rather than multiple different types of things or only does the same rep range or always goes to failure. So there's like a handful of different elements within programming that can kind of predict that people will have an overuse injury.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 9:41

The last thing I'd add on this would just be consistency, which is no surprise to anyone who's listened to your podcast or any other fitness podcast, because it's the same thing you see in weekend warriors when it comes to sport A person who plays basketball on the weekends, a person who takes a ski trip every winter or something like that and they come back their knees hurt, their elbow hurt, whatever.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 9:59

It has mostly to do with being prepared for the tasks that they're asking their body to do, and so if you have these long gaps where you're not training, you're not preparing for what you're asking your body to do, yeah, that does set you up for an injury. So ultimately, you'd want the thing to be dosed properly, not only for the person's current fitness level but their actual responsiveness to the thing, so they actually get the results that we want. You'd want to make sure that the training is heavily varied so that there's less risk of an overuse injury, although not so varied that you're kind of spreading yourself too thin and then do that consistently for a long period of time, and I don't know that those things are. Any of those things are controversial, like someone's listening to this and like, wow, you just opened my eyes but yeah, you could have luck in there, but I don't know that's a modifiable risk factor either.

Philip Pape: 10:52

So, yeah, the things you can and can't control. I hear you, man Cause it's funny, you mentioned it wouldn't surprise anyone, maybe people who'd listened to our shows consistently, but every day and I'm sure you get it as well People ask how heavy should I lift, how much recovery should I get? You know this, this, this, and you're like, well, it depends, you know. Let's add like 10 assumptions or caveats. Here's a program for a newer lifter, but here are your caveats. And so you mentioned the suitability, the minimum effective dose. You know, going for the actual goal you want. Because someone says how do I train? Well, what are you trying to do? Right, like, if you're a backcountry mountain goat hunter, you know which I know a guy like that versus you know you really care about endurance. There's a huge difference there. So, looking at strength, hypertrophy, power and fitness, I do love thinking of it as that kind of pie that covers all types of fitness that extend or correlate from that. And then the different levels of response, you know, knowing that even when you start something, you may not respond like someone else. So, jordan, it's funny, I just had it came out today.

Philip Pape: 11:48

Um, as we're recording this, justin Cottle he's an anatomy expert and he was talking about what he sees like in a cadaver, related to people who lift versus those who don't. And there were two things I was going to mention. One I can remember is the genetic variation between people and their response levels, down to the, you know, sarcoplasm, sarcomere, myosin levels. You know what I mean. Down to that level, how vastly different it can be. And there was one other thing I can't remember, but oh, the variety.

Philip Pape: 12:17

You talked about variety, like there's some of the bro science about shocking and muscle confusion and this and that. But I think there is a kernel of truth to that when you talk about not getting injured right, not like back squatting every session forever, but also the neuromuscular. In a way. There's a progressive loading aspect to that, beyond just adding weight to the bar of inserting this variety. Can we segue just a little bit on that? So, for example, westside conjugate right, one of the principles there is you rotate through like six or seven variants of a main lift and they knew intuitively that if you don't do that you're going to get over, fatigued or overuse from the one lift. Can we jumpstart off of that to talk about variety and muscle confusion and that whole idea?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 13:03

Yeah, sure.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 13:05

So I think again, when we're going to kind of bring all of these sort of ideas around program design back to those core sort of goals that we're looking for.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 13:14

So again, strength, power, hypertrophy, cardio, free fitness. So when you think about exercise selection, exercise mode, so the type of exercise that you're selecting and increasing variety within those domains, what you are really trying to do is use to leverage the body's ability to learn how to move we call it motor learning, for example and so some pretty decent evidence in my estimation, particularly with respect to physical task performance, that people learn better when they have an increase in variety of physical tasks that they have to perform, particularly when they're untrained. And so if you have a person who's not very well trained in the squat, for example, you might intuitively believe that if you just have them do one type of squat, they're going to become very efficient at doing that, meaning that they're going to clean up their technique in such a way where they're maximizing muscular force production in a way to move the bar completely vertically. But and granted, none of these studies have been done on the squat per se, but I think there is-.

Philip Pape: 14:14

Of course not. It's always the leg press.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 14:16

Leg press, leg extension or even more dynamic tasks jumping, stuff like that the idea is that if you give people slight differences in the movement pattern and so, again, if we use a squat, it's a back squat and then a front squat, maybe it's a high bar and a low bar, back squat, a safety squat, bar squat or a leg press or single leg work, for example the prediction that we would make, based on the current evidence, is that people would get better and more proficient at moving their body in space and come up with additional strategies to perform the physical task under periods of fatigue or duress or whatever, which is what happens in a workout anyway, right, and so you just get better at not only like this kinesthetic awareness where's your body in space but also you have additional strategies to leverage in order to move the weight, for example. So you not only get more efficient motor learning wise, you can pick things up a little faster, but you also have more resources to kind of use. So that's thing one. You're also distributing the training load, which again, is this term referring to not only volume, but also intensity, proximity to failure, frequency, all of the variables that kind of turn the program from this idea pie in the sky. To put it on paper, you're distributing it over more and more mass of tissue, right. It's not just always loading the patellar tendon or the ligament in the same way. You're doing it in different ways, and so you give the body a greater opportunity to adapt to those things, rather than maybe outkicking your coverage by kind of specializing.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 15:44

It doesn't mean that there's no place for specialization, and so when I think about Westside, I think about okay, what was Westside like designed for? It's mostly, you know, its original iteration was for powerlifters, and so powerlifter, we know the domains of sport squat, bench, deadlift, one rep, right. And so you know, in the off the off season, pre-season, before you're like actually going into specified meat prep, yeah, you would have a wide variety of movements, but once you get closer to the meat, you really want to focus in on the. You know things you need to do on meat day, and so there's times for specificity as well. The problem I see is that people get excited about lifting, which I'm 100 in in favor of. I want you to get bit by the bug, but I also don't want people to perseverate on a particular, a single form of a lift, a single rep range, for example, because ultimately I think that increases the risk of an overuse injury.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 16:37

So time for both being relatively varied than relatively specific, but taken to extreme for too long on either end, I think, is you're missing the boat. So one example of being too varied maybe all the time would be like some iterations of CrossFit, and then too specific on the other end would be some type of like the Bulgarian training. You know where you're maxing out daily which can be useful in short periods of time, but you think about expanding that over to eight weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks, 24 weeks. You're like I predict that most people are not going to be able to tolerate that and the people you hear about that did well on it. Well, that's survivor bias, right? You're like you're the only person left standing right and you're able to demonstrate these great results, whereas we're all the people who didn't make it that far.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 17:22

So when I think about practical implementation of variety for your general strength conditioning enthusiast I think about, you have a handful of movement patterns. Well, we can classify them as a squat pattern, a hinge pattern, a press pattern and a row or pull pattern, and I don't know that there's much benefit to repeating the exact movement more than once per week. Now, granted, that's speculative, right, you could make the case should you repeat them more than once every two weeks. We don't know, this is just more speculation, but when it comes time for me to actually generate a program, I think about all right, this person's going to do a squat pattern, squat type pattern, two times a week. I'm doing two different variations. If it's three times a week, three different variations. Four times a week, four different variations. And again you can make them very diverse.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 18:16

So like a back squat versus a Bulgarian split squat versus a step up. You know what I'm saying. That's big, big variances. Or they can be closer Back squat, low bar. Back squat, high bar, two count, pause squat, back squat. You know you're like okay, these are more similar, but still little variety. So it just depends on what is the end goal. What are you training for? What gets you up in the morning to go to the gym, for example? So that's kind of how I think about variety.

Philip Pape: 18:36

Yeah, I love that. I think there's a lot of counterintuitive and revelatory things that you said in there. Knowing the population that I know, when it comes to lifting there are definitely camps right. There's the kind of the starting strength and the basic but boring in the strength lifts side which, again, for new lifters, almost any program could be super effective and if you're committed and you want to learn those movement patterns, get strong fast, they could work. On the other hand, you have, you know, the six, seven day a week, bodybuilding. Every single movement's different and the fact that it's not just about fun, even though that's important. It's also the fact that your body engages in motor learning and you might actually become more efficient at the patterns you ironically, are doing less frequently now by mixing it up. It's heartening to people who wonder about that and think, oh, am I just slowing myself down and then even distributing the training load. When we talk about injury, we talk about longevity. That is super important. You think of whether it's muscle weaknesses or whatever the term people want to use. You're kind of distributing and letting your body use its system and do the movement patterns all across the board and you might be surprised how I mean, I found that doing weighted dips helped my overhead press and you're like, doing weighted dips helped my overhead press and when you look at the history of powerlifters and guys like Bill Starr, you see they did that and you're wondering why. Okay, so really good stuff.

Philip Pape: 19:52

I want to dive in a little bit to the joint health topic or arguments people make. A lot of people are fearful. If they're brand new to lifting, they're fearful. They're going to get injured just lifting in general, because of bad form or what have you, or because it's too heavy, or because their bones are going to break. They're fearful. They're going to get injured just lifting in general because of bad form or what have you, or because it's too heavy, or because their bones are going to break because they're now menopausal, whatever it is. Then you have, on the other hand, you know, dedicated lifters have been doing this for years who are worried about too much repetition of compound lifts and lower rep ranges on their joint health. What does the current evidence say about heavy lifting, you know, in our kind of sphere and joint health?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 20:27

Yeah, no, that's a great question, and even like joint health, it's more of this like nebulous umbrella term. I think on the one hand, we all understand what it means You're talking about pain-free sort of range of motion and being able to use it actively and passively, and then Connective tissue.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 20:41

No tendonitis you know, yeah, great function being able to walk up the stairs. Yeah, sure, totally yeah. So you know, there's this assumption, as you mentioned, that okay, if you train heavier rather than lighter, for example, just generally speaking, same proximity to failure, meaning you're doing three reps, two repetitions left in reserve, versus 10 reps left in reserve there's a thought well, the three reps definitely got to be heavier for a given exercise compared to the 10-rep set, and if it's heavier, so you're doing the three-rep set, you're at a higher risk of injury, whether we're talking about acute, catastrophic injury or a chronic sort of overuse injury, and you would expect that to play out with a pretty robust signal in the data, meaning that if you looked at powerlifters training presumably in the powerlifting way, all right, which is generally lower reps, getting ready for maximal strength sort of test on the platform, that they would have higher injury rates than, say, something like bodybuilders, right, that are training the same types of lifts, because then that's another sort of variable that we'd want to adjust and on balance, you don't really see that. You know, you can look at different data sets and come up with slightly different numbers, but when I look at them, and just just with the understanding that across all types of training resistance training the average injury rate is two to four injuries per 1,000 participation hours. And there are some bodybuilding-specific data sets that show, oh, it's 1.5 injuries per 1,000 participation hours, and there's other bodybuilding data sets that are up to three and a half injuries. So it just varies, right, because you just need a big sample size and how you define injuries. There's a bunch of other stuff. Do a whole podcast on that, but I think it's boring, don't need to do that.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 22:12

And then you look at powerlifting datasets and you see almost a mirror image of that, right. And so then you're like, even if there was a slight, maybe benefit or reduced risk of injury in bodybuilding, in my estimation, based on the existing data that we have, it's not robust enough to feel confident in that opinion that heavier is always a higher risk, higher risk, the biggest thing here. That is not an evidence-based sort of idea. This is more practical experience and the way I think about it. If somebody is not prepared for the task they're being asked to do, I do think that incurs a higher risk. How much higher depends on how far removed that is from their preparation, how novel it is to them, and so there's this kind of like open window theory of risk, meaning that if you're doing something new, you're effectively opening a window, and that window is wide open at first until you get used to it, have some exposure, have some experience with it. And so if it's your first time doing powerlifting training and you're asked to do one repetition, for example, like pretty close to failure just to see where you're at, and you've never done a one rep challenge test before, well, that's probably higher risk compared to somebody that's done single repetition work for years and years and years. But you don't need to study to tell you that.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 23:25

That said, if it were inherently risky meaning just dead bodies everywhere you would see that in the literature and not just in the injury data. We're talking about exercise science at large, where they routinely test people's one rep max to garner exercise prescription for loads. They'll have elderly individuals, people in their 60s, in their 70s, in their 80s even and they'll max them out on a leg extension and then say, okay, for the next eight weeks we're doing, we're starting at 65%, they're going 70%, 75%. Well, where's that percentage coming from? It's a one rep max test and what do they do? How do they obtain that At the beginning of the study, when these people were untrained. And again, there's not bodies everywhere, right?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 24:02

So I think the assumption that heavier loads are always more risky doesn't make sense to me for a given exercise. Just the caveat there is you need to be prepared for that and working up to that would probably be best practices. So I personally wouldn't test somebody's one rep max day one you could. I think there is some increased risk. I just don't know how big that risk is and I think it's relatively small compared to the risk of not exercising at all due to fear of injury. But to your point earlier most people well, most people don't exercise period. And and you ask them why, 40% of them will respond they don't exercise because they're afraid of getting hurt. And then, if you ask them further, why are they afraid? And it's something learned sort of thing, whether it's through social conditioning, they've had friends who've gotten hurt or they've learned it from who they consider an expert resource usually healthcare professional. Unfortunately, doctors say dumb stuff all the time.

Speaker 3: 24:56

Expert resource usually healthcare professional unfortunately, doctors say dumb stuff all the time. Shout out to Philip Pei. I've known Philip for a long time. I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength, and that's why I choose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably. If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking for, philip Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 25:44

It's true. That's why I like guys like you on the show. You know we need more doctors who know their stuff and lift yeah.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 25:49

I'm just not convinced that the load itself is particularly risky, even in like subgroup analysis and some of these studies where they look at like, well, what about just the competition period? Only If we isolate just the competition period, so at a meet or the last few weeks before a meet, where the loads are heavier compared to generalized training, is there a higher injury incidence? Not really In Olympic weightlifting, in powerlifting, and you're like huh. Well, how confident am I in this claim that heavier weights are generally more risky? And I'm like I don't think they are. I think there's a maybe a little kernel, a nugget of truth in there saying that if you compare to set going all the way to failure versus a set that's like three or four reps shy of failure, I think the set that's a few reps shy of failure is probably less risky due to the fatigue stuff that happens later on, you know, as you get closer to failure, all the way to failure, and maybe that sort of the effect that we're seeing in the injury data, if any.

Philip Pape: 26:46

But even then we're not talking about this huge like cataclysmic effect again, otherwise you'd see bodies right and you'd see people who had back surgeries and knee surgeries who got back into heavy lifting and do really well not be able to do that.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 27:00

I think I mean it's super helpful one of the most interesting studies on this has to do with people who don't exercise. They're insufficiently active. I prefer that to the term sedentary. It makes me feel better, just about. You know how I'm labeling these people. I don't say, oh, you're sedentary, it's insufficiently active, we're working on it. You would expect, if you're of this very mechanistic mindset, that heavier loading worse, lighter loading better than taken to its logical end, logical conclusion there.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 27:28

You'd say, well, if the person isn't, exercising they should have a near zero risk of musculoskeletal injury.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 27:36

But that's not the case. In fact, they did this year-long study. They took people both previously and sufficiently active two groups. Half the groups were subject to do six hours per week of conditioning, pretty like moderate intensity conditioning, I think it was at like 75% of their VO2 max, six hours a week, which is, yeah, pretty significant versus people who did no exercise. And the musculoskeletal injury complaint rate was effectively the same between groups. Because there's just this non-zero risk of being a human for injury, like, yeah, people have low back pain, they don't exercise. People have shoulder pain, don't exercise. People have knee pain, they don't exercise. And so you would expect again, if it was just really tied to loading just literally the weight on the bar, the weight on the machine or whatever, you would expect it to be significantly higher in folks who regularly challenge their body with weights. But you just don't see that. So, yeah, I'm bearish on that. I don't think it's no.

Philip Pape: 28:27

No, I totally agree. I was giving you the platform because I want people to have the confidence to get started lifting and to lift heavy. I mean, there are definitely plenty of anecdotes of people who had back pain, for example, who now started deadlifting and the pain goes away. I hear that way more often than I hear people getting injured lifting. So if that's the case, when we talk about overuse because back earlier, when you're talking about the pillars you mentioned, that was kind of the one thing and it's tied to a lack of preparation, which is, I think, a good way to think of it as a principle, because then it can apply to lots of different contexts. When you say lack of preparation right the specificity and progressively loading up to that point and so on, what do you mean by overuse? How do people know that they're overusing and how do we not do that?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 29:10

Yeah, unfortunately, you don't know that you're overusing until it's too late, which is the problem. Right, it like declares itself and you're like dang, that was too much. So people may be familiar with the term like overtraining, which you know if you're an exercise scientist Overreaching overtraining, yeah, yeah, yeah, so like words have meaning and unfortunately you got to get a little pedantic about it.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 29:27

It's like overtraining refers to a syndrome, right, Generally including endocrinology changes. So like thyroid hormone will go down, cortisol is way up, people have poor appetite, poor sleep, feel irritable, et cetera. Never been described in resistance training, not once it's been investigated. They've had people max out daily for over a month in a row, trying to like make them overtrained, and it turns out they just got better at lifting heavy weights. So like, yeah, which by definition should not happen if you're overtrained. Also, injury risk during that period was also relatively low.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 29:56

But if people are familiar with this concept maybe of overtraining, we're just doing too much. It's like okay, well, what do you mean by too much? What does that refer to? It's not just too much weight, it's a combination of weight on the bar, how close your efforts are to failure, whether it's resistance training or conditioning, and how much of it you're doing. So volume, right. And so that all encapsulates this thing we like to refer to as training load, and training load you can think about that as a sort of external sort of stress, meaning it's all the stuff that you could write down on paper that is pertinent to your program. So again, sets, reps, rest periods, proximity to failure, intensity, whatever that gets applied to the individual, okay, okay. And they experience it in different ways, and the way that they experience it can be monitored by heart rate change, heart rate variability, heart rate recovery. For example, rpe can be useful for to just tell us how hard it was, you can apply the same external stress, external stimulus in this case, to an individual group of individuals and they'll experience it differently, based on their current fitness level, their genetics, their expectations, so psychological the environment that they're in. Right, Are they in a powerlifting gym where there's death metal playing chalk in the air? You know whatever back slaps are going on, or are they doing it like a curves? You know different sort of settings.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 31:11

So, anyway, all of that is to say that when I'm talking about overuse, it means that the experience of the training, the external stimulus, is too much for them to currently tolerate and then ultimately recover from, and it's usually not a singular instance. It's repeatedly kind of insulting the body in a way that you can't sort of keep your head above water and so you drown. In this case it usually results in musculoskeletal pain. So most of the time these overuse injuries, they're kind of insidious. It's not like I did one squat and my knee started hurting. That can happen with an acute sort of catastrophic injury. Unfortunately, or fortunately, rather, those are relatively rare.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 31:47

So this sort of overuse thing is just too much training load, experienced chronically for the individual and ultimately produces this sort of these pain syndromes that people have. And so then what do you do? You're basically now you got a person who's been exercising, has pain, and you're like what do? What do I do about that? You tell them well, you're going to have to exercise still, but in a different way that's currently accessible to you. And so I just want people to.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 32:12

When they think about overuse injury, I don't want them to think about like I did one thing wrong and that's what happened. It's more of chronically. You were exposing yourself to something that you couldn't currently tolerate, whether it was due to the nuts and bolts of the program, that external sort of stimulus, or your environment. Your lifestyle suddenly changed lost your job, stressful season at work, less sleep, relationship troubles, financial stress, dietarily you now have a bunch of nutritional stress you didn't have before, For example. All of those things can change the experience that somebody has to a given type of training intervention. And so, again, if there's a mismatch between the training load being imparted on somebody and their ability to tolerate it and then subsequently recover from it, well, that portends a risk of overtraining, and in this case we would define overtraining as like the appearance of an overuse injury, even though that's not the classical definition of overtraining syndrome.

Philip Pape: 33:04

It's all right, we'll forgive you for that. Yeah, so this is really good because people, I guess, oversimplify the idea of pain and overuse or maybe they avoid training too hard, thinking that it's going to be a problem. Like you said, it's the total load or stimulus and it's too much to recover from because of chronic occurrence and it results in some form of pain, which leads to the question what types of soreness slash pain, slash some other feeling, and when should people be concerned? Because newer lifters are very confused about that. Like I talked to somebody the other day, she had a little bit of soreness and had been one day and it was something new and I said is it getting better? Oh, it's getting a little better. I said, okay, let's, I think it's gonna be fine. You're just scared. It's like a new experience to you, but color that for us yeah, no, that's a great question.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 33:51

I mean, you know there's like how sore is too sore or how often is, you know, being sore a problem. I think maybe one of the best use cases here that's applicable actually to one of the evidence based goals talked about in the beginning hypertrophy. So it variably, when people start doing resistance training or really any type of exercise, your risk of soreness goes up, mainly because it's a novel physical task that you're being asked of and if the muscles are forced to move through a dynamic range of motion so they're extending and shortening under load, yeah, your risk of having some sort of muscle soreness, whether it's delayed onset muscle soreness or just muscular fatigue or other, that goes up and that's not unusual. But in the case of hypertrophy we think that's due at least partially to muscle protein breakdown. Your muscles are made out of protein, water and some other stuff and muscular protein breakdown can increase DOMS, that late onset muscle soreness. When it comes to hypertrophy, what you're really looking to have happen is that you, over time, you get better at tolerating the exercise, you get used to it, you accommodate the stress and you get less muscle protein breakdown which allows the sort of muscle protein synthesis, the recovery efforts to outpace the amount of muscle protein that you're breaking down. And so that's why, when you look at hypertrophy studies, it's very rare, particularly for untrained individuals, that they grow muscle in the first three, four, five, even six weeks. Rather, that's like the just keep your head above water kind of deal with the soreness that you're having and then after that you start seeing muscular growth.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 35:20

And so what I predict and kind of how I think about how often should people be sore, how severe should it be, it's that initially having some soreness is fine and I would expect that on most sessions, in fact if somebody's very new to training. But that should get become few and far between as somebody gets more and more trained. Yes, if you take time off and kind of come back, I would expect a slight uptick. But again, it should be this general trend of waning soreness as somebody becomes more and more trained. And if the dose of training is correct, being actually sore from a workout should be relatively infrequent. If you're never sore, ever, to me that suggests underdosed training. So it's kind of like an artifact of properly dosed training where you're sore relatively infrequently but still sometimes, if that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 36:05

And at the beginning of that new stimulus or cycle or program yeah, yeah, or there's an increase in training load, for example.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 36:11

All of us. Yeah, that would all be times where you'd expect an increase in soreness, but it should be generally waning and getting less and less and less, with occasional upticks and as far as when it becomes worrisome, it's when the soreness is out of proportion to what you did. Like you said, I didn't really do that much yesterday. I am cripplingly sore and it's like, okay, was the environment that you were doing this in very harsh? It was really hot, humid, for example, under hydrated. This happens all the time in field athletes. Or are you actually sick and you didn't know that and you did the same training? You didn't adjust that to your current level of fitness on that day and so you actually had a much higher training stress than you otherwise would have predicted. You experienced a much higher level of training stress If you were underslept.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 36:54

That can happen too. In fact, lack of sleep or sleep deprivation is a big risk factor for injury incidents, particularly in athletes. That's been most studied in college-aged athletes, for example. So all of those things can kind of tip the scales as far as what somebody is able to tolerate, but ultimately I would expect soreness again to happen, sometimes generally decreasing as somebody becomes more and more trained, and then I only get worried about it if it's out of proportion to what happen, sometimes generally decreasing as somebody becomes more and more trained, and then I only get worried about it if it's out of proportion to what they did, very severely limiting as far as function goes, and or acute. So the delayed onset muscle soreness stuff happens the day after, two days after, may persist for a few days, even after that up to five or six days.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 37:33

But if it happens like I did one set and now my legs, both quads, for example, are you know eight out of 10 pain, that's not soreness to me that is more suggestive of like maybe something acute happened, particularly if it persists. It just doesn't go away. I recall one particular study on youth individuals. They were trying to characterize the incidence of injury risk in kids lifting weights. They recalled this one kid who had 30 seconds of 10 out of 10 quad pain. That just went away, like they didn't do anything, but it just went away and they're like yeah, well, that was an injury that the person had and we're like was it though? So it kind of comes back to definitions like what is an injury? But anyway, I get another podcast.

Philip Pape: 38:11

I hear you, I mean 10 by 10s in CrossFit. Take me back to when I was sore and probably didn't need to be chasing that soreness, so I want to piggyback off this is really good, the soreness piece, because then there's the fatigue. You know magic word fatigue that we use, and I think in one of your Insta posts recently, so I'm going to do an Oprah on you here. I've got some quotes.

Philip Pape: 38:31

Training must match an individual's fitness level that day, which you just said being hard enough to drive an adaptation, but not too hard where it drives too much fatigue. Now I would say, if you're tracking your program, if you're being consistent, like you said, with your frequency and volume, and you're progressing what you call progressive loading not necessarily overloading you should be at least prepared to know what is appropriate, in spite or independent of all these other variables you mentioned, like it's very hot or hydration's an issue. So maybe the question is how do you know that you're pushing that fatigue or driving too much fatigue, or how do you get ahead of it in terms of that biofeedback, those other variables?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 39:09

I know it's not a exact science, but you know yeah, no, it's a million dollar question, maybe a billion dollar question. You know, if we were really able to reliably predict fatigue in a quantifiable manner and then monitor it, man, that'd be cool. But there's been multiple efforts to try to do that. So people have used things like session RPE, for example, where after the end of a session you rate it one to 10, 10 was like I'm so fatigued, I can't do anything else. One is I didn't do anything, I'm at rest, right. So that's one way and you would prefer most of your sessions to probably fall in that. You know six to eight type range for like adequate sort of stimulus, but not too much, unless it was like an active recovery thing, in which case it'd be much, much less than that. If you find that after most sessions it's session RP 10, you would predict that would be a little too high. For example, other methods that have been tried and implemented variability is like this way to kind of test like oh, are you recovered or not? No data on that in resistance training, only in the endurance world, and there's a lot of nuance there. Again, that probably would deserve a multi-part podcast series, but that again, people have been trying to measure this for a long time. As far as the way I do this in practice monitoring fatigue it's more of this like subjective battery of how do you feel on average when you come into a training session. Are you super motivated to train? You're excited to do so or generally excited? Is your performance more or less holding up, despite having recent fatigue implemented from training? Are you super sore? For example, are you having any sort of you know boiling or bubbling, percolating injuries that you feel like are popping up? Your you know your joints are sore, for example, much fatigue. You would expect them to have lower training motivation. You would expect them to have decreasing levels of performance. You would expect them to have more soreness on average, more sort of joint related complaints on average. And that kind of tells you like the training stress I'm exposing myself to is a little bit too much right now. It doesn't mean you're doing too much volume per se, but maybe you're doing too much volume of stuff that's too close to failure and so practically kind of figuring out a way to get pretty close to the sun but not too close where you burn yourself.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 41:17

I think a concept that could be useful to folks is this sort of therapeutic index for training, meaning that there's a low end right Minimal effective dose, if you want to use that term and then an upper end, maybe that you call that maximal recoverable training load. You know, just to make up terms here, you don't need to be all the way at the limit to get the maximum benefit. You want to be trending that way, like on average, getting close to that, but you can leave a little safety buffer in there, and so I want people to understand that you don't have to go to the well max out, leave it all in the gym every single session. In fact, I would say that's unsustainable. Rather, it just needs to be hard enough to drive the adaptations that you want For strength training. You don't have to be really anywhere close to failure. When I say close to failure, I'm talking about one rep.

Philip Pape: 42:07

Zero one RP. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 42:08

You can be three reps shy of failure, five reps shy of failure, in fact, if it's over about 70% of your one rep max, I think that's going to make you most people pretty strong, even if they have five reps left in the tank. When it comes to hypertrophy, particularly so muscle growth, particularly for isolation exercises, you can actually send it a little bit closer to failure, right? The thing that's important to note there is the stakes are lower. When you're talking about isolation exercises, it's much lower muscle mass, right. The weights on average are lower. The sort of risk of failure is generally lower.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 42:40

Oh, I failed a biceps curl, oh no. Compared to oh, I failed a squat, a heavy squat, yeah, much, much bigger sort of potential, the stakes are much higher there. So this therapeutic index of like exercise, as I view it, gives us a wide range to sort of get something from our efforts right and to maximize that. Sure, we want to push it towards the upper end, but I don't know that it's useful to get super close to that top end, like what's the maximum amount of stuff I can?

Philip Pape: 43:04

do Icarus threshold? Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, I think that's yeah, a good takeaway.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 43:08

No, that's a good takeaway.

Philip Pape: 43:09

No, that's good. The therapeutic index. And again, I like how there's a system here of variables. It's multifactorial and, like you said, you might be training close to failure and that's perfectly fine. But if you're doing it to such an extent that that's the issue, it's the volume, it's the training to failure, it's the frequency, all of it together. You mentioned joint health. What about the big one that comes up all the time, low back fatigue? Right, that's like the one I hear personally most often, especially for older folks, of this mysterious low back fatigue that doesn't always seem attributable to a specific movement. You know they might squat and it's fine. Then they do an RDL and it hits them. Then they're fine on the next RDL, but it happens after their bench press and they're like maybe it's my arching. What's going on there? What's the low back mystery all about?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 43:54

Yeah, no, it's a great question I mean. So, first off, low back pain in general is super common, I think, for the lifetime risk for adults globally is like approaching 90%, so most people are going to have at least some about of low back pain. As far as the most common causes of low back pain, yeah, big question mark we don't know, because most low back pain is what's called non-specific. That isn't meant to minimize anybody's experience, right? Doesn't mean that just popped up out of nowhere, we have no idea why, or whatever. It just means that it's probably not due to a specific anatomical structure like oh, we got to go, you know, is this a ligament around the spine, for example, example? Is it a disc related? Is it, you know, related to your hips, for example? It's nonspecific, meaning that it's probably a constellation of things and your pain experience is real. It just means that there's not a pain generator that we can localize and need to work on, which, on the one hand, is good news because we don't need to wait for something specific to heal in order to get back after it, but it's also not academically satisfying, or even satisfying to the patient, because they're like well, what's wrong? Why did I have this, but this is a great example of maybe some of that overuse type injury. You know, there's this like threshold of load, training load or maybe a better way of describing it as like a physical activity load, or you could even extend that to like physical activity load in a particular environment load, right, like super stressful environment versus you know, somebody who's well-rested, well-fed and you know otherwise sleep, you know something like that. So if people kind of Icarus, flying too close to the sun, based on their training, based on their lifestyle or whatever they may sensitize themselves during particular movements right so, an RDL in this case, or a deadlift in another case, or arching on the bench press, the problem then is like, well, if I'm having pain when doing this, I don't want to expose myself to those positions which can be problematic, because if people's expectation is, you know, you lay down on the bench, you arch like ow, pain and extension. I'm sensitive to extension, particularly in this posture. I don't want to do that and it's like, okay, so now your expectation is every time that you arch in this way or you adopt that type of posture, you're going to have pain.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 46:03

People start kind of they get this condition called kinesiophobia they're afraid of particular movements, and so one of our strategies then is if somebody is experiencing sensitivity in particular positions, we want to do the most threatening type of movement that they can do, like they can currently tolerate, as their entry point back to physical activity. So in the case of like an RDL, right, somebody says all right, full weight, rdl, normal weight. They're doing sets of five or eight or something like that and they're having sensitivity at that loading level, with that full range of motion. Doing an RDL, what do? Well, we could increase the rep range, which would lighten the load. So maybe it's a load-related sort of sensitivity. If that doesn't work, maybe we slow down the tempo to lower the load even further or potentially give them chance to feel like they're maintaining a slightly different position, even if that's not really happening. It's getting sort of mind games, if you will.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 46:52

Another option is reducing the range of motion. So perhaps it's range of motion related. And if none of those things are tolerable, you're like maybe this is a no-go, we need to regress even further and so that it's like a trap bar, you know, type partial deadlift, for example, or hip thrust, you go even further back. So there are options there, but as far as what's actually happening, I think it's back to that concept of just tissue sensitization, or maybe we'll call it tissue-brain connection sensitization, because you can't separate the two things. So just sensitization due to high of fatigue, due to too high of training load in a particular environment and I know that's an unsatisfying answer for a lot of folks.

Philip Pape: 47:29

No, it's super solid to me. I mean I like the. I mean effectively, it's facing your fears in a way which it applies, for example, to people who've had surgery and they're afraid to be active again, especially when you have doctors saying don't do anything for months and months and months and maybe need to get under the bar earlier than you think Just to build up to that. I remember I had a deadlift sling when I had my rotator cuff surgery, just so I could get back to deadlifts with one arm because I was so missing it. But some people will have the opposite of like that's it, I'm done, I can never do this again. Or you know, I had knee surgery. I can never squat again. And yeah, you want to say something about that?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 48:02

Yeah, Well, what you would prefer for people to have is basically unrestricted movement potential, meaning that they could do whatever it is they want to do, even if they don't do everything right.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 48:16

But you don't want people to have these sort of limitations on like, ah, I can't do that because of this pain sensitivity. You'd want to identify those things, work on them actively and then just give people the option, like, should you want to do this or need to do this, usually in some case outside of the gym, well, you have access to that right and you're relatively well-prepared to tolerate that, and so you can go on. The biggest issue I see with lifters as they go on through time is that they keep pulling out exercises, movement patterns, ranges of motion that either ah, I had a little injury or I don't particularly like that, or whatever, and so they get more and more specific to something, to stuff that they like over the years and they're missing this whole sort of cadre of other physical development and effectively atrophying over time. And it's like which, again, is why I intentionally even with myself, I have to intentionally broaden, because, if left to my own devices, I like to squat, bench, deadlift, yeah.

Philip Pape: 49:03

Another case for variety?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 49:04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Philip Pape: 49:05

Yeah, yeah, no, this is great, yeah. So the next thing I actually wanted to ask you about was kind of the other end, the folks because I know there's a lot listening who really do go all out. They love PRs, they love getting stronger. Maybe they push too hard, right. Maybe they don't have any of these fears. They do the variety, they just push, push, push.

Philip Pape: 49:22

We talked about a lot of the aspects of fatigue, but some of it comes from a little bit of ego and something you talked about recently, which is how people would love to maintain their peak, especially if they were lifting early in life, like their 20s, 30s, 40s. I didn't start to my 40s, so I don't have that exact experience, but like, hey, in my 20s I could deadlift 700 and now I'm approaching 70. Also, you mentioned that people who start lifting later in life are not gonna be able to get as strong as when they were earlier. So sometimes they maybe overreach and I've seen that. Given this reality, where does realistic goals piece of this come in for, that being the cause of, say, overuse or fatigue, if you know what I mean?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 50:04

Just aging in general being the cause of.

Philip Pape: 50:07

Yeah, aging ego wanting to be strong, keep getting strong forever.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 50:11

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we all want to be strong, keep getting strong forever. Yeah, yeah, I mean we all want to, but Totally, is it possible? Well, I think what happens in general as people age, especially if we just move like general population, right, musculoskeletal injury rates tend to go up as people get older. I view that as mostly a symptom of detraining due to insufficient activity. People just become less and less active, whether that's due to occupational demands, familial demands, the constellation of those things.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 50:35

People are tired, whatever You're, just exercising less, moving less, and ultimately their body responds accordingly.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 50:40

It adapts to what's being asked of it and so, yeah, your threshold for what you can tolerate goes down. And so people might experience that in training where they say I can't go as heavy as often as I used to and it's like, well, that's probably a function of what you've been doing the last few years, not like what's happening chronologically on the calendar. So I think that, barring market reductions in sort of training time, training resources and just activity in general, the issue that is likely to happen and this is kind of a black box there's something that's going to happen in various periods of our lives. Our performance is going to go down and we don't know why I don't have a solid answer, why I can give you all these mechanisms but, like as far as which one's causal or which ones are causal, I think there's a bunch of them and it's like you know, death by a thousand cuts. It's not just one thing that's leading to a 20% decline, it's you know, 20 things leading to 1% decline.

Philip Pape: 51:32

No man, it's my hormones, it's cortisol. It's cortisol Totally, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 51:37

Probably a nervous system more than anything. But the point is people, they sort of forget what they learned along the way. Again, we don't want to fly too close to the sun, we want it to be hard enough, but not too hard. And you want to do a lot of that stuff as much as you can without outkicking your coverage. Well, if you're still hanging on to what you were doing 10 years ago, five years ago, and that's not who you are presently, again you're outkicking your coverage. It's the same thing that would have happened if you did the same thing 10 years ago. You have these overuse injuries, and so I think if you stick to the script, if you're like, okay, it needs to be hard enough to develop a training adaptation on this day and you keep clocking those wins, punching in, punching out, day after day, it is likely you're going to have lots of success in your lifting career, and by success I mean demonstrable improvements or, as you age, maintenance to the best of our ability, with performance and a relatively low risk of injury, barring terrible luck and or terrible genetics. And so we can't do anything about the genetics and luck kind of is what it is. But the stuff we can modify is mostly going to be training related, and so I think most people, if they can wrap their heads around some sort of auto-regulation on a given training session, can probably avoid most of that. Meaning that if it's a number on the bar you have historically in your brain, that's great, but is that the appropriate load for today?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 52:55

Training is about development. It's not about testing. I don't need to test you every time you're in the gym. Yes, we could do that, but we can do that intelligently at a low stakes sort of situation. So again, rather than one rep max all the way to failure, I could do it at 80%. A one rep effort.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 53:15

That would give me enough data to say here's how strong you are today. Meaning that here's the rest of your loads for this particular exercise should be to be within that therapeutic index and we can give yourself a little buffer. So that's kind of. I think people kind of mess this up, as they're attached to these historical performances, they ignore all the stuff that we talked about and they're like, yeah, well, I've been doing this for 20 years and so I can just do this right now. It's like, look man, no, you couldn't have done that 20 years ago anyway, you know. So like I would avoid kind of being too attached to a particular number in training Competition. Do what you got to do, but in training the main thing is make sure you're getting an effect and don't fly too close to the sun.

Philip Pape: 53:51

Love it, man Clocking in the winds, auto-regulation that is huge. And then I like what you said training is development, not testing. That's a really good line. Just people keep that in mind. Constant growth from where you are right now in the last session, not necessarily who you were in your 20s or even six weeks ago. All right. So as we wrap up, is there anything that you wish I had asked that we didn't cover and what would be your answer to that?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 54:15

No, I think the only thing I mean. You mentioned this progressive loading thing versus progressive overload and if people have never heard that, we do have an article about that on our website. It's titled Progressive Loading. We've got a podcast on it as well. But just as a brief takeaway, it's the same kind of messaging throughout this entire podcast, the messaging throughout this entire podcast.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 54:29

The point of the training is to provide you enough stimulus to get what you want out of it, but not too much where you can't recover from it. So with the idea of progressive loading, you have to increase either the weight, reps or total training load as you become fitter, but not before the adequate training stress is there to drive fitness. And once fitness has gone up, then you have to increase the training stimulus, but not before you get bigger, faster, stronger, so you can lift more weights, go faster, et cetera. Okay, so it's kind of a chicken and egg situation in my estimation. People want to go, increase the weight, increase the reps or increase the pace before they've actually generated those adaptations the idea that you have to overload the body and it's like it shouldn't actually get any harder. You just got fitter.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 55:14

That Greg LeMond quote. You know it never gets easier, you just go faster. Well, in this case, you know it never gets any harder, you just get fitter and so the load go up, you're able to do more reps, do more sets, etc. And so progressive loading, I think actually might actually be the key here. People are saying, I don't know this auto-regulation shit, like whatever Progressive loading might be the key takeaway.

Philip Pape: 55:33

No, I love it. You train right to the limit of your current capability, that Icarus threshold not pass, and not even into that little regime right on the hairy edge where you're just not getting anything out of it, and then that makes you bigger, faster, stronger. To do that again over and Cool. I think we covered a lot about training. I hope people got I know they did got some really good strategies out of this to modify their approach, because it really comes down to the principles more than like a specific workout program. For example, when can listeners learn more about you, Jordan?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 56:00

Sure, yeah, barbell Medicine. You search that on Google, you're going to find all of our stuff. My personal Instagram account is Jordan, underscore Barbell Medicine. You can find me there. You can find me on Twitter threads. People seem to like my threads stuff. I'm a little salty on there. It's just just that outlet for me. So if you search barbell medicine, you can find all of our stuff and we'd love to have you part of our community.

Philip Pape: 56:19

Cool man, I'll put all that stuff in the show notes so people can find you. I will, of course, keep following you as well, and I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show.

Is Excess Protein Turned Into Sugar and Fat? (Input-Output Systems) | Ep 237

Is that scoop of protein powder helping you build muscle, or is it just being wasted and turned into sugar and fat?

Today, we're using the engineering concept of Input-Output Systems to bust this common protein myth and help you make informed decisions about your protein intake and supplements like whey and pea/rice powder.

Listener Sara S. asked about claims that protein powder isn't used by the body and is instead converted to sugar and fat. Learn about the science of protein metabolism and explain why these claims don't hold up to scrutiny.

Learn how to choose the right protein powder for your goals and why it can be a valuable tool in optimizing your overall nutrition strategy.

To get your question answered on a future episode, send me a text message.

Try 1st Phorm protein powder as mentioned on the episode.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body is an efficient input-output system that uses protein powder (and any "extra" protein) in a very specific way

• High-quality protein powders, especially whey, are highly bioavailable and can be just as good (or superior to) many whole-food protein sources for muscle protein synthesis

• When choosing a protein powder, there are specific objective elements you should look for rather than believing any particular marketing claim

• Protein powder can help optimize your overall nutrition by making it easier to meet protein goals and has a surprising benefit when building muscle in a gaining phase

Episode summary:

In the latest episode of Wits and Weights, we dive deep into the world of protein powders, debunking myths and exploring their true role in supporting your fitness journey. Hosted by Philip Pape, the episode begins by challenging the widespread misconception that protein powder is wasted by the body or transformed into sugar or fat. Using a listener's query as inspiration, Pape delves into the science behind protein metabolism, likening the body to a complex manufacturing plant where protein serves as a raw material for producing muscle, energy, and hormones.

The discussion begins by addressing the input-output system model, which is pivotal in understanding how the body processes protein. Protein is not simply converted into sugar or fat as some might claim. Instead, the body efficiently utilizes protein for essential functions like muscle repair and growth, enzyme production, and immune function. Only when the body's immediate protein needs are met does excess protein potentially convert into glucose via gluconeogenesis, and even then, it's primarily used for energy rather than stored as fat. This insight dispels the myth that protein powder is a direct pathway to weight gain, clarifying that any weight increase results from an overall calorie surplus, not the protein itself.

The episode further explores the advantages of high-quality protein powders such as whey, pea, and rice proteins. These powders are highlighted for their bioavailability and rich amino acid profiles, with whey protein particularly noted for its high leucine content, crucial for muscle protein synthesis. This underscores the idea that protein powders can be as effective as whole food sources, providing a convenient solution for those with high protein requirements or busy lifestyles.

Pape provides practical advice on choosing the right protein powder, emphasizing the importance of protein content, amino acid profiles, and brand reliability. He warns against misleading marketing claims, encouraging listeners to focus on the ingredients and third-party testing. Brands like First Form and Legion are recommended for their quality and transparency, offering a reliable source of protein supplementation.

In a detailed examination of protein powder myths, Pape reassures listeners that protein powder is not inherently inferior to whole foods. While some might argue for whole foods due to their comprehensive nutrient profiles, protein powders offer a practical alternative for those struggling to meet their protein needs. They are particularly beneficial for individuals who need easily digestible protein, such as those in a muscle-building phase or individuals who struggle with appetite.

The episode also touches on the psychological and practical benefits of incorporating protein powder into a fitness routine. For many, protein powder serves as an essential tool for achieving protein intake goals, supporting muscle growth and recovery. By debunking myths and providing a clear understanding of protein metabolism, Pape empowers listeners to make informed decisions about their protein sources, ensuring they can confidently fuel their fitness journey.

As the episode concludes, Pape encourages listeners to keep lifting weights and using their wits, reminding them that their body is a complex system capable of achieving the desired outcomes with the right inputs. This comprehensive exploration of protein powder's role in fitness provides valuable insights, helping listeners navigate the often confusing world of nutritional supplements.

For those seeking to optimize their fitness journey, understanding the science behind protein powder and its role in muscle building is crucial. This episode of Wits and Weights offers a balanced perspective, blending scientific evidence with practical advice to support listeners in making informed decisions about their nutrition and fitness strategies. Whether you're a seasoned athlete or just beginning your fitness journey, the insights shared in this episode can help you harness the power of protein to achieve your goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you like, using protein powder to support your muscle building goals, but you've heard claims that it's just wasted. If you have too much protein or too much protein powder, or it turns into sugar or fat and you're questioning should I even be using this stuff? This episode is for you. Today, we are talking about input output systems to understand how your body processes protein powder. You'll discover the truth about the protein powder is wasted claim and how to choose the right one for your goals. So if you want to know whether that scoop of protein is helping you or just going down the drain, stick around. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:59

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're answering a question that's been floating around the fitness industry for years Is protein powder actually used by your body or does it turn into sugar and fat? Now, I was a little bit surprised that this question is so common, but I've heard it multiple times. Sometimes people are talking about excess protein in general, but some brands actually make this claim, and I was. I was pretty shocked, but maybe I shouldn't be, and so this question comes from listener, sarah S, and I wanted to give her a big shout out for inspiring today's episode, because she wrote, quote I've been using protein powder again recently after giving it up for a while. The reason I gave it up is sources like and I'm going to leave the brand name out claim that protein powder isn't actually used by the body and is instead turned into sugar than fat in our bodies. I've been using a different brand name protein powder recently, but we'll be trying this other brand name's new powder as soon as it runs out. What are your thoughts on this? End quote All right, thank you for the question, sarah, because it is one I'm sure many listeners have wondered about, if they've heard this claim, and today we're going to get into some of the science and engineering behind protein metabolism to get to the bottom of this. And so I just want to jump into the topic today and address the claim that protein powder isn't used by your body and just turns into sugar and fat, and I'm going to extend this to apply to quote-unquote excess protein in general, because this one idea or the other has been floating around for quite a while and I still hear it, and it's based on a misunderstanding of how our bodies process protein, and so we're going to use a concept from engineering today called input-output systems.

Philip Pape: 2:44

Very simply, an input-output system is a model that describes how a system processes inputs to produce outputs. And think of it like a manufacturing plant. Raw materials go in steel, wood, whatever finished products come out, and your body is essentially a highly complex input-output system. The food that you eat, including the protein powder, that's the input, and then the outputs are things like your energy, your muscle tissue, your hormones and, yes, sometimes stored energy in the form of fat. It's got to go somewhere. Let's just put it that way. Now the confusion comes in, because some people claim protein powder goes straight from input to an unwanted output like sugar or fat, without being used for its intended purpose. But our bodies are much more complex. We know this. They're very good at adapting as well, and so let's talk about exactly how this works.

Philip Pape: 3:39

On the input side, when you consume protein powder, it's broken down into amino acids in your digestive tract, and these are the raw materials Again, the manufacturing plant analogy. These are your raw materials, amino acids that your body then uses for a whole bunch of metabolic processes. So, number two, processing. Your body does stuff with this. It distributes them. It distributes the amino acids where they are needed. This could be muscle repair and growth, it could be enzyme production, it could be immune function. There's actually a ton of things that amino acids are used for. Very exhaustive list. And then number three, the output.

Philip Pape: 4:23

Only when your body has more protein than it immediately needs will some of it potentially be converted to glucose through a process called gluconeogenesis. Right, and that's when you hear of it. Okay, it's converted to sugar, and even then, this glucose is then primarily used for energy. Right, it doesn't mean it's automatically stored as fat. It's like any other source of glucose, namely, for example, carbs. Right, we don't avoid them because we're worried about getting fat. Actually, I should. That I knew as soon as I said it out of my mouth what the response would be. A lot of people think you should avoid them because they make you fat, but in reality they do not. We know this because plenty of healthy, fit people can eat hundreds of carbs, grams of carbs, and be in peak performance and health and body composition and leanness, myself included. So we know that that doesn't happen. And so that's the same glucose that protein can get converted to as well through gluconeogenesis, but it rarely happens. It actually rarely gets to that point.

Philip Pape: 5:18

Your body is very efficient. It doesn't just take a valuable input like protein and just immediately convert it into some waste product. I mean, that would be like a car engine turning fuel straight into exhaust without moving, without producing motion or energy at all. And so I want to address the specific claim about protein powder being inferior to whole food sources. First, or not. First, but in addition to this, as a side tangent, because it's important, I think high quality protein powders, especially whey or pea and rice protein, which is great for vegetarians or people who avoid milk products, are actually some of the most bioavailable protein sources out there. Right, and so your body can efficiently use them for muscle protein synthesis. That's why I don't shy away from them at all, and I think most people trying to get a decent amount of protein you know, 120, 140, 160 grams will often end up supplementing a bit with some protein powder. Right, and it's convenient in other ways. But despite all that, you know, whey protein is sometimes considered superior to many whole food protein sources because of the high leucine content. Right, leucine is one of the essential amino acids and it's the most important one, or at least it's one of the most crucial ones, for triggering muscle protein synthesis. And if you look at, if you take a whole list of protein sources and rank them in terms of percentage of leucine content, whey is going to be at the top.

Philip Pape: 6:45

So now, why do some people experience, say, weight gain when using protein powder? Well, it has nothing to do with the protein itself being converted to fat. It's simply because they're over-consuming calories, period, and they haven't adjusted to anything else. You can definitely get fat on protein if you just eat too much of it, and by too much I don't mean too much for your body. There's no such thing as too much protein in and of itself, but there is such thing as too much protein leading to too much calories. Too many calories, and then you're over consuming and gaining weight when you don't intend to. That's it right.

Philip Pape: 7:19

Our body is an input output system. It follows the laws of thermodynamics. If you constantly consume more energy than you expend, you're going to gain weight, regardless of the source of those calories. Period, end of story on that. That's it. So that's kind of the long and the short of it. When you think about it, our body's going to use the energy and anything it can't use it's either going to expend or store, depending on how much you've consumed right and how much you are, how much you need it and by needed I mean all the things you're doing, as well as all the things going on inside your body, as well as what your organs need and so on. So I think that settles it. In other words, the answer is no. It's not going to get converted to sugar and fat and make you fat. Yes, it can get converted to glucose if all the protein you possibly need in your body has been used, but very few people actually get to that point. In fact, we know that you can consume quite a bit of protein and it's still going to get used. And you can consume it even all in one meal in a day instead of spreading it out, and it's still going to get used. Recent research even backs that up. So there's a ton of flexibility.

Philip Pape: 8:22

Now as far as like choosing the right protein powder, because, sarah, you mentioned trying all these different brands. Again, I'm not going to mention them on the show and frankly, I don't think you have to jump around. I think if you find one that meets the general things that you're going for, without big marketing claims, you're good. Of course, even good ones have good marketing, so that can be confusing as well. What matters most is the ingredients, the protein content, the amino acid profile, and that it's a trusted brand. So what do you look for? Number one protein content. It should like a scoop of protein of like 26 to 30 grams should have most of those grams as protein. So if it's 30 grams as a scoop and it's like 26 grams of protein, you're good. But if it's a 30 gram scoop and it has, you know, 15 or 20, something's off. There's something else in there, you know, it's just, it's just a matter of weight, right?

Philip Pape: 9:17

Then you also want to look at the amino acid profile. If it's whey protein, you're fine, but I've seen some wonky brands that claim to be whey and then when you then they list their amino acids and are missing some of the essential amino acids, and that is fishy to me as well, unless it's just a typo on their nutrition label. Then the next thing which is important for more important for some than others is the number of ingredients and the additives, right? Fewer ingredients usually means less processing, and you want to look out for things that you may be concerned about. You may be concerned about red dye, you may be concerned about artificial sweeteners or other things that are in there, and not all proteins are pure protein too. Some proteins are like whole food substitutes and they have carbs in there as well, or they're like meal replacement proteins. So just watch out, because it may have a bunch of carbs that you didn't want, because they're put in there on purpose for people who want that. And then, lastly, just make sure that you're getting what's on the label because of the quality of the company and the third-party testing that they do so, for example. This is why I usually recommend a brand like Legion or First Form brands like that. I use them all. I use a bunch of brands, but First Form is one that I love for protein powder. They meet all the criteria.

Philip Pape: 10:34

Maybe some people would argue that on the ingredient side there are purer forms. Excuse me, there are purer, less ingredient versions of powder out there, but if you want kind of the flavored protein, you're gonna end up having some extra ingredients in there. Of course, you can get pure, just pure whey protein, nothing else in there, and then you flavor it how you want, if you even need it flavored, or you just dump it in some milk or almond milk and just chug it down. It works really well with milk because it basically is come, it comes from milk, um, and then you know if it meets all the criteria and it tastes the way you want. Great, you know, that's it. And if you want to try out first form, I will put the link in the show notes to find some products in First Form. But that's all I'm going to say about it.

Philip Pape: 11:15

Just keep in mind that protein powder is a supplement. It's not a necessity. It's not technically a quote-unquote whole food, but from the nutritional and health profile it is pretty much just as good as whole food, if you will. Some people will argue with that and you can have your opinion, but a lot of people I found have success when they couldn't quite get their protein. They do a little supplementation with protein powder and now they're good and they're better off than the alternative of constantly missing on their protein. And then of course you try to shift toward more and more whole foods.

Philip Pape: 11:48

Right, if you have a high protein requirement, if you have a busy lifestyle, if you travel, if protein powder can be a convenient and perfectly effective way to support muscle growth and recovery. There's another cool little benefit of protein power and that's it kind of. If you're in a muscle building phase, for example, it is more easily digestible and doesn't take up as much space. It is kind of slightly less filling than a whole food version of protein. This can be a benefit if you need the extra calories, right, if you feel like you can't fit it in. Actually, in fact, I've had many female clients, you know women who they're not on that high level of calories but yet they still don't get hungry. And I find this with older women as well, like in menopause. For some reason they just don't have the hunger they used to have because of their hormones and they're like how do I even eat more? I feel full already. Protein powder can be great for that.

Philip Pape: 12:41

So if you're struggling to meet your protein goals, consider protein powder. It's just fine, any brand that meets the criteria we talked about. Don't worry about over-consuming or just general consumption leading to sugar and fat storage. It doesn't work that way. Only energy balance and calorie consumption leads to excess fat storage and that's it. You got to find what works for you and for your lifestyle and don't listen to what other people say with a fear mongering. Right, if protein powder helps you consistently meet your goals and support your training, it can definitely be a valuable part of your nutrition strategy.

Philip Pape: 13:12

So again, if you want to try high quality protein powder that I personally use and recommend, definitely check out First Form. They're third party tested. They taste really good, they mix really easily, and then I'll throw the link in my show notes for that. Give it a try. Let me know your favorite flavor. They've got a lot of cool flavors. They have some pumpkin stuff now, of course, for the fall. No surprise. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your body is a complex system but with the right inputs you can engineer the outputs that you want. And yes, protein powder is perfectly fine. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever started a new fat loss phase or training program with enthusiasm, only to have it derailed by unexpected events like illness, work, stress or family emergencies, and you find yourself constantly falling off track and struggling to maintain consistency with your goals, this episode's for you. Today, I'm going to reveal how the engineering concept of risk management can help you create a bulletproof plan that adapts to life's chaos and uncertainty. You'll learn how to build flexibility and resilience into your nutrition and training approach so you can keep making progress even when life throws curveballs your way. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are diving into a concept from the corporate world risk management. Hear me out, it is not as boring as it sounds. It's not just for big corporations and Wall Street types. This is an engineering principle and I've used it almost every day in my engineering career. That can be a real secret weapon for creating a sustainable, resilient, adaptable plan and in this case we're talking about your fitness, your nutrition and so on that will then stand up to real life, because, think about it, how many times have you started something new. You're super excited. You're entering a fat loss phase, starting a new training program. You're ready to go Monday? Right, I'm going to start on Monday. You're all fired up, ready to go, and then it falls apart, sometimes pretty quickly, when unexpected stuff happens. Right, maybe you got sick, maybe you had to travel for work, maybe some family obligations just took over your schedule. You know, 20 people visited your house, whatever. And suddenly that quote, unquote, perfect plan that you had mapped out goes right out the window, and so we're going to talk about that today. I'm going to show you how to use risk management principles to create an approach that can bend without breaking, no matter what life throws your way, because that's what we want, that is what is sustainable, something that you can just keep doing, no matter what, knowing that the default is life. Life is the default. Things that are unexpected is actually the norm. And before we dive into that, just really quick. If you enjoy the show, if you want to hear more episodes like this, hit follow in your app. It helps people find the show, but it also makes sure that you don't miss an episode. Just hit the follow button, make sure that you go into your podcast app you're listening right now and click, follow or subscribe whatever it's called.

Philip Pape: 2:50

All right, let's talk about the main reason that most plans fail, and this this is really any plan right, whether it's in the corporate world, engineering or with your fitness. And the biggest culprit here is rigidity. We create perfect, ideal scenarios in our heads, and I do this as well. Our future self is going to be perfect. I'm going to work out five days a week, I'm going to meal prep every Sunday, I'm never going to touch food after 7 pm, I'm going to get my 12,000 steps a day and it's just going to work out Right. Sound familiar, even if you think you have the discipline and willpower to do it. And the problem is, life doesn't care about this, life doesn't care about your plan. Life is messy, it's unpredictable, it loves to throw wrenches even to the best laid schemes that we create. And then what do most people do when this happens? They think they failed, they beat themselves up. They oftentimes just give up like, oh, I just can't be consistent, I can't stick to my plan because this happened, and that is the all or nothing mentality that leads to frustration and inconsistency. And this is where risk management comes in.

Philip Pape: 4:00

In engineering, risk management, sometimes called risk and opportunities management, is about planning for the known and unknown risks to get to your outcome, to achieve your objective, to get the product out the door on time, on budget, meeting all the requirements, and it's not about creating a perfect plan. It's about creating one that is resilient to all the things that you may not foresee, and there's two types of risk we deal with. So this is really important. There are foreseeable risks. These are the known unknowns. Okay, these are things we can predict that might happen, based on our experience and based on common sense. It's the things that you know are going to happen, but you're not sure when like getting sick, like having to travel for work, like dealing with holidays, social events. You know they're going to happen. They're known unknowns. That's foreseeable. Then there's unforeseeable risks. These are unknown unknowns, things that you don't know. You don't know the curve balls that you could not have possibly anticipated, like a family emergency that pops up or you suddenly have to move, or a global pandemic hits right, so sound familiar. And those are the. So there's the what we know, we don't know, and what we don't know that we don't know. And the thing is, we know that all of that is going to happen. We know that the unknowns are going to happen and we know that the unknown unknowns are going to happen.

Philip Pape: 5:31

So the key is to create a plan that can adapt to both types of risks. And instead of a rigid and flexible plan which guess what? Hint, that's what diets are like the keto diet or vegetarianism or whatever it is rigid and inflexible we want to build a strategy that's more like a shock absorber, right? It can cushion the impact of the bumps of life and then just allow you to keep moving forward, like a really good suspension on a car, you know, not like a finely tuned sports car trying to go off road, right, but actually something that can handle all the bumps. So how do we actually do this? So I'm going to give you just a few practical steps here. The first one, of course, is we have to identify what those risks are and this is reflection, this is brainstorming Anything that could derail your plan.

Philip Pape: 6:15

Go through the list, take a piece of paper out and think about your life and, over the next six months, what could happen Work deadlines, family commitments, do you get sick on a regular basis, or your family or your child gets sick and it could make you sick. And it's not like you're trying to predict when exactly these are going to happen, although in some cases, like social events or the deadlines, you know when they're going to happen. And then you're basically leaving room for the things you know are going to happen. You're just not sure when the things you know you're going to happen and when they're happening, and then even some things that you may not have a clue they're going to happen, and then for each of those, you want to identify how likely it's to happen and how much it would impact your plan, because some things may not matter that much, right, like, okay, you have a work deadline. It creates stress, but if you know for sure you're going to schedule in your training in the morning and work doesn't start till later and it's not going to matter, then maybe it's not going to impact your plan as much. But it might impact your food plan, right, having having more stress or having a situation where you have to go into work more frequently or something. So for each one of these, you want to know is it how likely it is and how much will impact your plan, and then you can prioritize the ones that you want to focus on the most, and I would just keep it simple and literally just, you know, circle the top three that you want to focus on for this exercise.

Philip Pape: 7:36

Now step three develop strategies to deal with each risk. This is develop strategies to deal with each risk. This is contingency plans. These are what I've sometimes called if-then strategies. If you often miss workouts due to work, then have a 20-minute home workout ready to go as a backup. If a social event is going to come up for work let's say you get invited to a happy hour and you're going to go because it's good for business or whatever and it normally derails your nutrition then I'm going to eat a small protein-focused meal before I go out or I'm going to have a plan ready to go to choose what I eat and drink at any event. Right. So if, then, eat and drink at this at any event, right. So if then, if unexpected travel comes up, then I'm going to research nearby or the hotel gym in advance, or I'm going to pack my bands or my blood full restriction training cuffs for a in-room workout, right. So again, it's if this thing happens. I don't know when it's going to happen. I don't know how long it's going to be. I'm going to have a then strategy, a contingency plan for it.

Philip Pape: 8:47

The other thing that complements this, that supports this, is building in flexibility to your whole plan in general. By default right Now it depends on what we're talking about. So, for example, training, training sessions Instead of saying I'm absolutely going to work out five days a week, you can say I have a plan for a five day. You know five days of training. But because I know sometimes I'm not able to do that, I'm okay stretching out my week by a day or two and still getting in on my workouts. I just might have an extra day there or I might shift them back and forth, right. So either the number of training sessions can kind of spread out beyond that week or I know that I have flexibility in the days that I can train right. If you're only training three days a week, you probably have more flexibility to do that than, say, if your training program is five or six days. So that's some flexibility on the training side.

Philip Pape: 9:40

For your food, I love ranges, right Minimums and ranges for calorie macro targets. So again, it depends on what you're going for. But let's say you're in a fat loss plan, you have calorie and protein target. I would want to hit the minimum protein but then kind of get within 100 or 150 calories of the calorie target, either direction from fats or carbs. Right, like, create the amount of flexibility you need to know that it's sustainable.

Philip Pape: 10:08

Another flexibility is eating throughout the week, right, when you do meal prep and when you have quick options to go to in your pantry and you are smart about your grocery shopping ahead of time so that you have your fridge, your cabinets, your pantry filled up with multiple options. Then, if something throws you off during the week and you can't stick to your normal meal plan, your normal routine, even if you have prepped it, you'll at least have a second, third or fourth backup that you can go to and you're not just reaching for the candy jar or reaching for the vending machine, right, or just you're not sure what to do. So you stop in a grocery or you stop in a convenience store and you grab, um, you know a muffin, right. Or uh, you know calorie dense hot dog or something. So, building in flexibility, compliments, having the backup, uh, contingency plans.

Philip Pape: 10:58

And then, because you have all this flexibility built in, you always want to assess uh, is it working for you? Is one of these things not actually solving the problem and mitigating the risk? Let's say you are invited to a happy hour and you go and all of a sudden, the same thing happens, as always happens. You have the nachos, you have the three margaritas and you overconsume and before you know it, you've gone way past your calories for the week, despite having your risk management plan. Well, that plan obviously wasn't effective, so you just have to come up with a different one that's actually going to work. So that doesn't rely on you having too much discipline or willpower to do it.

Philip Pape: 11:42

And that iterative process is part of the flexibility of risk management and is key to, again, sustainability. And then, underlying all of this is, again, we are not trying to be perfect, we're not trying to have a perfect plan, nor are we trying to execute perfectly. We're trying to just make progress from day to day. Look at every challenge that trips us up as a lesson to adjust our plan rather than a reason to quit and we'll be fine. And so the power of this approach isn't just helping you stick to your plan. It's in transforming the approach, in the relationship and thinking like a risk manager, not seeing setbacks as failures, but really data points, opportunities to learn, to adapt, to improve the system.

Philip Pape: 12:25

Right, that vacation that used to derail your diet for weeks because, well, you know, I ate whatever I wanted on vacation and I can't get back to it now. I'm off track. I might as well just enjoy myself for a while. Now that is a chance to practice the flexible strategies, the flexible eating and nutrition strategies. That busy work period that would have meant skipping the gym. Now it's an opportunity to test out either the home workouts or the flexibility you built into your training days. And that is now taking the power back into you, an internal locus of control. You're not trapped now by some external rigid rule, some unrealistic expectation. You actually have power to navigate the unpredictable nature of life which is the default and make progress, and that is the key to sustainable long-term success.

Philip Pape: 13:18

So if we were to just recap this episode number one, a perfect plan will fail because it can't adapt to life. There's no such thing. Number two risk management principles are a way to create a flexible, resilient strategy, both contingency plans and building in flexibility, which then number three, allows you to make consistent progress even when life gets chaotic, and not just quote unquote, stick to your plan, which now is really a wide range of flexible options, but changing your approach to it in the first place, which will serve you well forever. So your goal is not to create a plan that worked perfectly in ideal conditions, because that doesn't exist. It's to create a system that keeps you moving forward no matter what life throws your way, and that's really it when it comes to risk management.

Philip Pape: 14:06

So if you found value in today's episode and you want to learn more about creating a flexible, sustainable approach to nutrition, I do have a guide that I think you're going to enjoy, called the Nutrition 101 Guide, and it's geared toward body composition with this flexible approach. Just go to witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in my show notes. Again, witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in my show notes and I'll send you the guide for free. It'll help you master that flexible dieting.

Philip Pape: 14:34

Whatever your goal fat loss, muscle building, improved health. It covers everything from calculating your ideal macros to optimizing your nutrition for your workouts, and it's a really good companion to today's episode, because today was a little bit more high level about the risk management in general, but then this helps you dig one level deeper with some practical tools for this resilient, adaptable strategy. Again, go to witsandweightscom, slash free or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember, in fitness and life it's not about avoiding obstacles, it's just being prepared to overcome them. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

4 Ways to Increase Your Metabolism by 500 to 1000 Calories per Day | Ep 236

Are you tired of cutting calories to stay lean? Are you wondering how some people eat more while staying fit?

Philip (@witsandweights)  shares simple, effective ways to help you burn an extra 500-1,000 calories daily—all through sustainable lifestyle tweaks. Learn how to fire up your metabolism, feel more energized, and efficiently work towards your fitness goals. Philip breaks down four key areas that increase calorie burn. He’ll guide you through small, realistic steps like adding more protein, moving more throughout the day, and building steady habits that make a big difference over time.

👥 To connect with other listeners who are applying these evidence-based approaches to their fitness journey, join our free Wits & Weights Facebook group here or search “Wits & Weights” on Facebook.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

5:23 Strength training for calorie burn
8:25 Impact of NEAT on Metabolism
10:37 Nutrition's role in metabolism
12:15 Daily lifestyle activity boost
14:34 Listener feedback on nutrition coaching
15:01 Recovering from metabolic adaptation
16:12 How sleep affects your metabolism
18:03 Sustainable strength training tips
19:27 Adding more steps easily
28:07 Outro

Episode resources:

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS – Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

Related episodes:

• 7 Surprising BMR Facts (Your Metabolism Isn't Broken)

• How to Allocate 1200, 2000, & 3000 Calories in Your Meal Plan (Plus Hit Your Protein!)

Increase Your Metabolism by 500 to 1000 Calories per Day

Want to boost your metabolism without endless cardio or extreme dieting? Let's break down exactly how to increase your daily calorie burn by 500-1000 calories through sustainable strategies that actually work.

The Four Key Components of a Higher Metabolism

1. Strength Training and Muscle Gain (100-150 calories)

Building 8-10 pounds of muscle over 6-12 months increases your resting metabolic rate by about 50 calories per day. But here's something most people miss - the adaptations in your heart and other organs from consistent training can contribute another 50-100 calories daily. Your body becomes more metabolically active overall.

2. Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) (200-300 calories)

This is where we can make the biggest impact. By increasing your daily steps by 5,000-7,500 (about 30-60 minutes of walking spread throughout the day), you'll burn an extra 200-300 calories. This isn't intense exercise - it's just moving more through:

• Walking meetings

• Taking stairs

• Parking further away

• Standing desk work

• General movement throughout the day

3. Thermic Effect of Food (50-100 calories)

Optimizing your nutrition through higher protein intake and whole foods increases the calories burned during digestion. Protein requires 20-30% of its calories just for digestion, compared to 5-10% for carbs and 0-3% for fats. Focus on:

• 0.7-1g protein per pound of bodyweight

• Whole, minimally processed foods

• High-fiber foods that require more energy to digest

4. Active Lifestyle Enhancement (50-100 calories)

Light physical activity you actually enjoy:

• Playing with kids

• Gardening

• Recreational sports

• Yoga

• Quick movement breaks throughout the day

Bonus Strategy: Recovery From Chronic Dieting (100-200 calories)

If you've been in a prolonged calorie deficit (12+ weeks), your metabolism has likely adapted downward. Strategic reverse dieting or a building phase can add another 100-200 calories to your daily metabolism as your body adjusts to higher energy availability.

Implementation Strategy for Sustainable Results

Don't try to implement everything at once. Start with one area:

1. Begin strength training 3-4 times per week with compound movements

2. Track current steps and add 1,000 steps per week until reaching your target

3. Focus on hitting protein targets first, then gradually shift toward more whole foods

4. Find movement you genuinely enjoy and incorporate it regularly

The key is creating an upward spiral where each improvement enhances the others. When you build muscle, you burn more calories during all activities. When you increase NEAT, you improve cardiovascular fitness. When you optimize nutrition, you support better training performance and recovery.

The Bottom Line

Your metabolism isn't fixed - it's trainable. By implementing these strategies systematically, you can increase your daily calorie burn by 500-1000 calories while improving your overall health and fitness. This isn't about quick fixes or extreme measures. It's about building a metabolism that supports your goals long-term through sustainable lifestyle changes.

Ready to transform your metabolism? Join our free Wits & Weights Facebook Community where we discuss these strategies and support each other's success.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

📞 Send a Q&A voicemail

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're tired of feeling like you need to eat less and less just to avoid gaining weight and you see others who seem to be able to eat way more food while staying lean, this episode is for you. Today, I'm breaking down exactly how to increase your daily metabolism to burn 500 to 1,000 more calories every day, without endless cardio or anything extreme. You'll discover the four key factors that actually determine your metabolic rate and how to optimize each one for maximum but sustainable results. Whether you're deep in a fat loss phase or trying to maintain while eating more food, this episode will give you a specific list of things to do to add up to a thousand more calories to your daily metabolism. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:58

I'm your host, philip Pape. Picture this You're eating what feels like barely any food. Maybe that's 1,100 or 1,500 calories a day, depending on your metabolism. You're doing cardio several times a week, your energy is in the gutter and still the scale the fat will budge. Meanwhile, you see others eating 2,000, 2,500, even 3,000 calories, while maintaining a lean physique. Well, what if I told you there's a way to systematically increase your metabolism by 500 to 1,000 calories per day, not through endless cardio or restrictive dieting, but through strategic approaches that work with your body to increase what we call energy flux. That's exactly what I'm giving you in today's episode. I'll show you exactly where these calories come from and how to implement each strategy in a way that actually works for your lifestyle without feeling deprived anymore. Now, if you want to connect with other listeners who are applying these same approaches to their fitness journey, go ahead and join our free Facebook group. It's called Wits and Weights. Just search the Wits and Weights community on Facebook or use the link in my show notes, and it's a great place to ask questions, to get support from like-minded people who, most of whom, listen to the show as well. Share your wins, your progress, but also focus on building your best physique through the smart, efficient systems we talk about, like increasing your energy flux to burn more calories, and then you can eat more food, have more energy and get the fat loss and muscle gain that you're going for.

Philip Pape: 2:31

Speaking of other listeners, I always promise that if you submit a review, I will give you a shout out and read it on the show Now, if you've submitted a review in the past and you're like I still haven't heard it written. I might have inadvertently missed it, and so please shoot me an email or a message on Instagram and let me know. But just to share some of what we've received lately Sarah P she recently wrote that the podcast is quote real, diverse, relevant. I appreciate so much the information on this podcast. Philip seems like a real person who I can identify with. He talks like someone I can understand, who has a ton of knowledge in a field I'm trying to dive into. I love the diversity of information for men and women, bodybuilders and soccer moms. The episodes are to the point and enjoyable to listen to. Thank you so much for all you do to help us on our individual journeys. Thank you so much.

Philip Pape: 3:23

I love reviews like that that show that you're really absorbing and listening to the information and you get something out of every episode. Sdjvdas said quote love this pod Seriously. So informational Can't get enough. The host is a class act too. I really appreciate. You know can always take a compliment, so thank you. And Jason Z27 wrote quote definitely recommend. I've been trying to work out more, but it's difficult to know if you're doing it right, figuring out how to diet, what muscle groups to work, how to find the right balance with cardio, etc. This podcast clears up a lot of those questions to make sure you get as much as you can out of your health plan. So so good. I love those reviews. Thank you for sending them in.

Philip Pape: 4:05

The reviews offer what's called social proof. They help others find the show and have some trust that it's what they're looking for. It makes a huge difference than in growing the community, and so if you're a listener, if you love the show, if you haven't left a review yet, hey, my birthday was two days ago before this episode came out. On the 26th of October was my birthday. I'm 44. I'll come out right out and say it I'm 44. And my goal is to get one year younger for every year of age when it comes to my physical fitness. But the best gift you can give me for my birthday is just a review of the show. That's all I ask for, please. I mean, you don't have to give me a gift at all. Just reach out and say hi, that would be great too. But leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I'll give you a shout out. I'd be very, very grateful. Now, one of the reviews said we get to the point, so I better live up to that.

Philip Pape: 4:50

Let's get into today's topic. Here is what we are covering today. First, I want to go over the exact breakdown of where extra calories come from. When we talk about metabolism in general, I want to give a refresher of the components of metabolism and then how you can increase your metabolism in a sustainable way by up to a thousand calories a day, how to implement these strategies sustainably and then a little bonus approach at the end for those who might have been dieting for a long time. So stick around for that, all right.

Philip Pape: 5:23

I want to start with the overall theme here of increasing your metabolism, and some of you might be skeptical rightly so. You're like hey, philip, 500 to 1,000 calories is insane. That could be like double my current metabolism, or not double, but a huge jump to what I'm currently burning every day. But stick with me here because I'm going to break down objectively, scientifically, exactly where these numbers come from and give you a menu of options and you can kind of put them together. You don't necessarily have to do all the things, but it gives you some ideas to get started and make them work for you.

Philip Pape: 5:56

So first is strength training All right if you're not already lifting weights. That is the biggest low-hanging fruit in existence for your physical fitness for the rest of your life. In so many ways, well beyond calorie burning, even though that's the context for today, it is huge for your health, for your bone density, for your insulin sensitivity, for your function, for living a long, amazing life and, like I mentioned earlier, potentially turning back the clock as you age. I spoke to someone recently on his podcast. It was called On the Brink, john Brink. He's 84 years old and he's the oldest natural competitive bodybuilder on the planet, and he didn't get started until his, I think, late 70s. Bruce and Jan on Instagram they're in their 70s and they're kicking butt in the gym, showing that you can be strong and functional and completely defy aging.

Philip Pape: 6:49

Okay, I'm getting off track, but I think it's important. So let's talk about specifically calories. If you can add muscle just that alone let's say eight to 10 pounds of muscle over the next six to 12 months, which is totally achievable for both men and women you're going to burn an extra at least 50 calories per day at rest, and we know that because research shows that you can burn up to 9 calories per pound of muscle tissue on your body just from the tissue itself, let alone all the corollary ways that your body burns calories when you have more muscle. And again you might be thinking well, that's only 50 calories, right? But there findings from research that I want to add on to that, that people miss in this equation, and I've talked about them recently.

Philip Pape: 7:35

The adaptations in your heart and other organs from consistent training, from being an athlete, which you are, if you're a lifter, can actually contribute another 50 to 100 calories a day. Now some people might question the number, but I've seen it often anecdotally, and there does seem to be research that backs this up, if you add it all up. So, in summary, what I'm saying is, if you add muscle tissue, if you train like an athlete, if you're active, your organs increase in size as well. Your BMR will increase from multiple sources. You're more active in general. You are lifting weights. That burns calories. You add it all up and we're talking an extra 100 to 150 calories. So that's our first 100 to 150 calories. Just go out and lift weights and that is going to massively unlock so many other things. All right.

Philip Pape: 8:25

Second is non-exercise activity thermogenesis, or NEAT, and it's important to give you a refresher on these, even if you've heard it a million times, because somebody might be listening and saying I don't even know what that is. What are you talking about? Neat is the components of your metabolism where we can make the biggest impact, because it is all the non-exercise movement, such as walking, such as parking farther from the store, doing your chores, doing yard work, fidgeting, unconscious movement, really everything other than deliberate training or exercise. And we've seen that NEAT can by far have the biggest swing in your metabolic rate. For example, by increasing your daily steps by about 5,000, which sounds like a lot, but most people are super sedentary and getting only three or four so five gets you up to eight, nine, maybe 10,000 steps Stretch goal would be 12,000, but let's say eight to 10. That's about an extra up to an hour of walking spread throughout your day, and walking can be spread all over the place in all different ways.

Philip Pape: 9:30

Just doing that is going to burn an extra 200 to 300 calories. Now this is independent of your job, of how active you are in general. We definitely have seen a widespread between people who are sedentary, people who have a modesty, active jobs and like manual laborers of up to something like don't quote me on it, but I want to say it's almost a 2000 calorie difference on the extreme ends. But even if you were to shrink that by down to a quarter, we're still talking two 300 calories, right, just from your lifestyle. But deliberately walking every day in some way, excessively to you in an enjoyable way, is going to burn an extra 200, 300 calories. Right, we're not talking about intense exercise, we're not talking about running, it's just moving more throughout your day, getting off your butt, pacing around the house, doing all the things. And the beautiful thing about this is that is really sustainable. Right, you're not killing yourself with high intensity interval workouts or specific cardio sessions. You know, hopping on the treadmill, unless it's just to go walk on a treadmill. Or what I like is a standup desk with under-desk treadmill if that's a possibility for you. So that's our next 200 to 300 calories.

Philip Pape: 10:37

The third way we're going to add calories is optimizing your nutrition a bit, and one component of your metabolic rate is called TEF, the thermic effect of food, and there are a lot of people in the evidence-based space that are like eh, you know the extra calories burned from that really isn't worth discussing. I tend to disagree, because maintaining a higher protein intake and by higher I mean 0.7 to 1 grams per pound of your body weight, which is almost or more than double what most people are getting to start, and if you're eating more whole foods, with fiber, for example, you're going to burn more calories just from processing the food. You know it could amount to an extra 50 to 100 calories a day based on that shift. All right, so again, I give you I'm giving you ranges because we can be conservative and say maybe it's 25 to 50, maybe it is up to 100, depending on where you started and where you went. If you're eating a lot of ultra processedprocessed foods now a lot of fast food, quote-unquote junk food, whatever you want to call it chances are your body is not having to work very hard to digest it. If you switch to a lot of protein and whole foods and fiber things you have to chew harder foods, things you have to digest you are going to burn a bunch more calories just through digesting and processing that food, because protein requires 20% to 30% of its calories just for digestion, compared to, say, 5 to 10% for carbs and 0 to 3% for fats. So there's another funny thing If you are from the low carb, high fat camp in the past and now you're eating a more balanced diet with much higher protein and then some higher carbs, both of those are going to contribute to this metabolic bonus, just for eating different foods. So that's pretty cool, all right.

Philip Pape: 12:15

The fourth method here is what I call just active lifestyle enhancements, like light physical activity that you actually enjoy. Now you might say, well, this is part of NEAT, isn't it? But with NEAT we talked about specifically adding in walks. In this case, while it is part of NEAT, it's thinking of everything you do in your life, your daily life, and being more active in general. So this could be gardening, playing with your kids, recreational sports, yoga I don't care what it is, I bet, unless you're the type of person that's always out hiking, that's always out playing sports, which a lot of us are not.

Philip Pape: 12:52

We're kind of I'm not going to say stuck with desk jobs, but you sit around all day. You're tired. At the end of the day you just veg out, right, and then maybe the weekend you do some fun activities here or there. But can you think of a strategy where you every day are active, doing something, and if you have kids for example, fathers, mothers out there I mean especially the dads out there if you're not playing with your kids almost every day in some way, take advantage of that. It's such a wonderful bonding opportunity, it's so great for them. You know, get away from the devices and all that, just have fun, especially quick five-minute snacks, what we call. What did Brian Borstein call cardio snacks or exercise snacks. For example, running up and down the stairs a few times I mean silly things like that you can add another 50 to 100 calories to your day.

Jenny: 13:48

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement for all of our health. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape: 14:34

So, if we add it all up, strength training and the adaptations from strength training and the lifestyle of strength training add up to about 100 to 150 calories. Increased meat through walking is another 200 to 300 calories. Optimizing your nutrition, your protein, your fiber, whole foods another 50 to 100 calories. And having an active lifestyle 50 to 100 calories and that's maybe 400 to 600 calories per day. Right there, all right. Now here's the bonus strategy that can push this even higher.

Philip Pape: 15:01

For those who've been dieting for a long time and that's a lot of you If you've been in a prolonged calorie deficit and you may not even be in enough of a deficit to be losing weight anymore, you may just be below your set point for your current metabolic rate and just kind of under eating but not really losing weight. You could be in that situation. Your metabolism is probably adapted downward right. It's called metabolic adaptation and it's basically conserving resources because you're not eating enough. And if you can then recover out of that, if you could track your food, recover out of it, increase your calories to the point where you're now at your, you know, full, recovered, homeostatic maintenance calories, you don't have to use a reverse diet, right? You don't have to go into a building phase, although that can, in my opinion, you know, ramp it up even further. You can definitely add another, maybe 100 to 200 calories to your daily metabolism, and that's just like a starting point. Some of you may be more adapted than that. You know three, four, 500 calories, but if you've been dieting a lot, then 100 to 200 is a good estimate. If your thyroid has been slightly downregulated through being in a deficit, okay. So that brings our total potential increase to 500 to 800 calories per day.

Philip Pape: 16:12

And I would say there is one more thing that I totally forgot on my list, but it was what gets you to the thousand, and that is getting more and better quality sleep. Okay, so just improving your sleep would increase your metabolic rate, because a lack of sleep affects your hormones. It also affects things like visceral fat or visceral fat storage in the belly, but that's a separate topic. It downgrades your metabolic rate, downgrades your thyroid production, affects your cortisol, all the things, such that your body also conserves energy, and so getting more sleep is going to increase your metabolic rate. Notice that nowhere in that entire list that I mentioned cardio. In fact, for some of you, you're doing so much cardio that it's actually adding too much net stress to your body and that is actually causing you to burn fewer calories. You may be burning some calories from all the movements, but it is a small percentage of what you should be burning for that movement, because your body has adapted to compensate. So that gets you plenty of things to think about, of low-hanging fruit, where you may not be giving your body what it needs to fully thrive and be in this high energy flux state.

Philip Pape: 17:22

So how do we actually implement these in a way that's sustainable? All right, let's talk about strength training. Let's break it down Strength training if you can lift weights, if you can aim for three days a week to start and then eventually four or even five I like four or five for folks that are more in the intermediate to advanced phase of their training. Three days a week, full body, progressive loading with compound movements I'm talking squats, deadlifts, bench presses, rows the basics that build strength. Right, they build strength and by building strength they're going to build muscle as well. So don't think about it as two different concepts and you don't need anything fancy here, just consistent, progressive training that challenges you. That's lifting.

Philip Pape: 18:03

I've got tons of resources If you're like where do I start? How do I train? What program do I use? This is where you can jump on a call with me a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment, and if you just want to talk training, I can get you started exactly where you need to go. You know, no charge. I don't charge for those calls. I also don't sell you on anything. I literally will suggest an app, I'll suggest a program, maybe even give you a guide or two that I have. If you're kind of newer to this and just send you on your way and if you're like, hey, I really love what you do and I need more support, that's when you'll reach back for more support. But I want to get you started. So reach out and you can use the link on my show notes to do that For neat.

Philip Pape: 18:38

For walking, first you have to know how many steps you're getting, so you should be tracking your current daily steps and almost any device now phone or wearable even very inexpensive wearables track steps just accurately enough. They're just fine. And if you can start this week and add a thousand steps a day this week, that's not very much at all. That's like a 10 minute walk, ideally after a meal. That's where I would place it if you have a choice, because that will help with blood sugar, insulin sensitivity, digestion and it just feels good Usually after you eat. It kind of helps settle down your stomach, gets the blood flowing and all that. But wherever you can add, it is what matters. So add a thousand steps this week and keep doing that each week until you consistently do it as a habit and reach your target, which I would aim for eight to 10,000, or, if you're bold, go for 12,000. All right, so this could be taking a 10-minute walk after meals, like I mentioned, or having walking meetings where you're pacing around on your Zoom calls, parking further away from stores, using the stairs.

Philip Pape: 19:42

When I go to any place with a parking lot. Now it's awesome because my goal is to park in the farthest spot I can possibly find, unless it's in like a massive Walmart or something where I have to walk. You know half a mile and there's a time constraint or something to my shopping. But you give yourself some time. I try to park far away. Guess what happens Nobody else is trying to get that spot. Your car is nice and safe. You get the steps. It's great, all right. So the key here is just making it feel effortless and natural and just part of what you do Not like.

Philip Pape: 20:06

Oh, I had to get a walk-in, or I feel like I'm forced to get a walk-in. All right, nutrition that's a whole separate topic that I cover many times on this podcast, but I would focus first on just hitting your protein target. Use a tracking app, and I'm going to, of course, suggest MacroFactor, because it's the only app that, once you track your food and weight, it can calculate your metabolism and if it knows your metabolism, it knows the targets it needs to give you for your calories and macros to get to whatever goal you have. But just start tracking, eat at maintenance and ensure that you're actually getting enough protein. People overestimate their intake big time. And then, after protein, I would shift toward more whole foods, with an emphasis on fiber, not being restrictive, but adding in the things that taste great, that satisfy your needs, that give you nutrition, that give you protein. We're talking lean meats, vegetables, fruits. I love fruit. If you can't think of what to eat for lunch and you haven't meal prepped, just think of a meat and a fruit, because to me that's super convenient. A meat maybe you've meal prepped it or maybe you've got some leftovers. If you don't, that's a good place to prep on the weekend, cook a whole casserole of chicken thighs, for example, and then fruit is usually just, you pull it right out of the fridge or right off the counter, the fridge or right off the counter. And that's why I suggest that as a very sustainable first step. And fruit people underestimate how nutritious it is. It's so tasty, it kind of covers your carbs and your fiber altogether. Sure, it has some calories, but it's so many fewer calories than you think given the volume, right, obviously, greens like broccoli are going to have almost no calories. But it's not all about calories, right, it's also about the fiber and the taste and you need some carbs and so on. So protein, then fiber, you know whole foods, and then you're still going to enjoy some of the foods you love anyway as part of that process. But now your body is going to be burning, you know, more like a furnace when it comes to digesting all of that food. And you're just optimizing your pattern slowly over time, all of that food, and you're just optimizing your pattern slowly over time. So that's for nutrition, for the active lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 22:13

Find something you really enjoy to do. Maybe it's throwing a frisbee with your kids, maybe it's doing some yard work. Let me tell you something my wife has taught me. Okay, I used to hate doing the lawn. We have a huge yard. Now it's like an acre and a half. We have a mowing tractor. I still, in the back of my head, think, oh, I have to mow the lawn. Now my wife loves it. She just loves being outside in general and doing anything outside, including yard work. She sometimes mows the lawn, so thank her for that. We have an equal opportunity household. I would say it's 50% of the time I mow the lawn, but she's taught me Now, granted, that's a lawn tractor.

Philip Pape: 22:42

So this is actually a terrible example. I just realized a lawn tractor. So this is actually a terrible example. I just realized. But after doing that, I'll go do some weed whacking, some cleanup of the weeds, you know anything to just use my hands.

Philip Pape: 22:57

Take pride in my house and I don't outsource any of that stuff. The only thing we outsource is plowing the driveway because it's like 300 feet long in the middle of winter in New England. I'm not going to do that when I've got to get to work, anyway. So I don't know if I'm like helping my case or hurting my case. Find a thing that you enjoy doing. Maybe you don't enjoy doing yard work, maybe you want to take a dance class, dance with the kids. Whatever, the goal is to move more without it feeling like exercise. Okay. So, hey guys, this is me being real. I'm not even going to edit any of that stuff out. Take with it what you will. All right. Now here's something that most people miss.

Philip Pape: 23:31

When it comes to enhancing your metabolism, it's not just about stacking up ways to burn calories. It's doing things that support your physical health, your function, your longevity, and allowing those things to then drive you to do the other things that also support that and create this compounding effect, not just a habit. Compounding effect like one thing leads to better outcomes over the long term. It's that one activity like lifting weights leads to wanting to move more, leads to wanting to eat better, leads to wanting to sleep more, and so on and so forth, and it starts to add up and create a compounding effect. I've mentioned the term upward spiraling from positive psychology. Once you do one positive thing, it leads to another, to another, to another, and they just start to stack on top of each other. Right?

Philip Pape: 24:21

So you think about, for example, when you build muscle, you're not just burning calories in the gym. You're also burning calories when you're at rest. You're also increasing your organ size. So that's even yet another way to think about the compounding effect is that there's a cascade even in your body. Your body's like okay, I see what you're doing here. You're active, you need to move heavy things, you need to load your body, I need to adapt. I as in like anthropomorphizing my own internal body's monologue. I need to optimize everything cognitively. You know the neural connections, the muscle tissue and the sarcomeres, the way I utilize nutrients and you become this like machine with a huge engine burning, burning lots of calories. And again, it's not just about that, but hey, take the bonus along for. And again, it's not just about that, but hey, take the bonus along for the ride for doing all these wonderful things that are great for you anyway.

Philip Pape: 25:13

Right, when you increase your neat, when you walk more, when you get up off the chair, you then improve your cardiovascular fitness. And, by the way, studies now have confirmed that the amount of cardio is more important than the type Meaning. If you just walk a lot and it's equivalent to running the same amount, you're pretty much going to get a similar cardiovascular improvement, with the exception of the optimal end of that. In other words, if you're trying to go at maximum VO2 and maximum conditioning and endurance sports, okay, you should probably add in training for those. But if you just want general fitness, that's like as good as it needs to be to thrive for the rest of your life and be sustainable. Walking can do it.

Philip Pape: 25:54

Believe it or not, now, many of us get into that. We're like okay, now what do I do? I'm going to throw on a rucksack, I'm going to go on an incline. Maybe I'm going to throw in some prowler pushes. Maybe I do want to do some sprinting, maybe I want to do this sport over here. And you start to get more athletic, anyway, hopefully.

Philip Pape: 26:08

Some of us, though don't Some of us just like to lift. We get off our butt, we walk around, we're just generally active. We do things outside, we do things with our hands, we go help somebody move into their new house and we're just a more active person. And then people are not having to take care of us when we're in our 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s In fact, we might be taking care of them because we can, because we're capable. So when you optimize all these things, other things improve when you optimize your nutrition. You improve your ability to train, to perform, to recover, and, yes, that includes potentially increasing your carbs. All right, I saved it for deep into the episode because then I know all the YouTube trolls will never hear it. All of these things create an upward spiral where each improvement enhances the other.

Philip Pape: 26:51

Now, the opposite of that would be crash diets, extreme exercise programs right, which are short, quick fixes, where you punish yourself, you berate yourself, you get a short-term result that you think is what you want and it ends up not being and it has no long-term impact whatsoever, makes you miserable and it trashes your mental state. That's not what we want. So the key to making all this work is sustainability. I think that is one of the most important terms that we use on this podcast and in this philosophy is getting it to work for you and it's part of your life. Don't try to implement everything at once right. Start with one thing. Maybe you increase your daily steps, maybe you start training right With a new training program and then, once that becomes ingrained, a habit, a system, you start to add other elements in right.

Philip Pape: 27:40

So not quick fixes, not extreme measures, but building and stacking a running, burning metabolism that also supports your goals long-term, and your body's incredibly adaptive. It's incredibly adaptive. So give it the stimulus, that positive stimulus that it needs. Give it to it consistently and it will respond and do the work for you. And then, guess what? You can eat more food. Hey, you're like what does this all mean? I can eat more food. Yes, absolutely All right.

Philip Pape: 28:07

So if today's episode resonated with you and you want to discuss these metabolism boosting strategies with other people who are implementing them, join our free Wits and Weights Facebook group super supportive community where we dive deeper into topics like this. We share our experiences. We help each other succeed. I do a bi-weekly live on fridays answering your questions. So much good stuff in there. Just search wits and weights on facebook or click the link in the show notes to join the group and I will approve you. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your metabolism is dynamic and you can train it to work for you, not against you. Talk to you time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Builds More Muscle Using Less Weight (Nick Colosi) | Ep 235

Are you an experienced lifter looking for new ways to boost muscle growth, improve recovery, and stay injury-free? Have you heard about blood flow restriction (BFR) training but aren’t sure how it can fit into your routine?

Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Nick Colosi to break down how BFR can enhance muscle growth, speed up recovery, and take the strain off your joints—without sacrificing intensity. Nick explains the science behind BFR and shares real-world success stories from elite athletes like LeBron James and the USA Olympic weightlifting team, all of whom have used BFR to stay at the top of their game.

Nick Colosi, founder and president of Smart Tools, has a doctorate in chiropractic and extensive training in sports rehab and performance. Since 2014, Smart Tools has been at the forefront of developing innovative BFR devices used by elite athletes across professional sports, including the USA Olympic weightlifting team. Nick’s mission is to make BFR training accessible, safe, and effective for everyone, from fitness enthusiasts to pro athletes.

🧤 Get your own pair of safe, effective BFR cuffs at Smart Tools (anything you buy with this link supports the podcast) or here: https://www.smarttoolsplus.com/?sscid=91k8_q3zxr&

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:01 How BFR fits into a traditional lifting routine
4:25 Typical BFR workout structure
8:59 Substituting BFR into your workout split
11:45 Why lighter weights are essential for BFR success
14:25 Comparing BFR for arms vs. legs
20:55 Safety considerations and common mistakes
23:12 Using BFR for recovery and DOMS relief
29:19 Pro athlete success stories: LeBron and Olympic athletes
36:18 What Nick wished Philip had asked 
37:52 How to connect with Nick
38:24 Outro

Episode resources:

• Smart Tools (anything you buy with this link supports the podcast) - https://www.smarttoolsplus.com/?sscid=91k8_q3zxr&

How Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Builds More Muscle Using Less Weight

As a lifter, you’re always looking for ways to maximize muscle growth while staying injury-free. Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) training offers a new tool in your strength and hypertrophy toolbox. Whether you're dealing with joint pain, overuse injuries, or simply want to build muscle with less weight, BFR can help. In this post, I’ll break down how BFR works, how to implement it into your training, and why it’s gaining traction among elite athletes.

What is Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Training?

BFR training involves using cuffs to restrict blood flow to a limb during exercise, allowing you to lift lighter weights while still getting the muscle growth benefits of heavy lifting. This technique works because restricting blood flow creates metabolic stress in the muscle, which mimics the effects of lifting heavier loads.

So, why does this matter? With BFR, you can stimulate muscle growth without the heavy weights that wear down your joints over time. This is huge for those of us who want to keep lifting for years without breaking down.

How to Incorporate BFR in Your Routine

Let’s say you’re already following a solid lifting routine with compounds like squats, deadlifts, and presses. How do you add BFR into the mix without overhauling everything?

Start with isolation exercises. BFR works great for exercises like bicep curls, tricep extensions, and leg extensions—movements that don’t require heavy weights to begin with. You’re still doing your regular lifts, but you’re swapping one or two isolation exercises for BFR.

Here’s an example:

• For arms: Add BFR to bicep curls at the end of your workout.

• For legs: Use BFR with lunges or leg extensions after your heavy lifts.

Use a 30-15-15-15 rep scheme:

1. Start with 30 reps on the first set, using about 30% of your one-rep max.

2. Take a 30-second break.

3. Complete 15 reps for each of the next three sets, with 30-second breaks in between.

By the end, your muscles should feel like they’ve been through a heavy workout, even though you’ve used significantly lighter weights. This is why elite athletes like LeBron James and Olympic weightlifters use BFR—it gives them the gains without the wear and tear.

Why Use BFR? Benefits for Lifters

Increased Hypertrophy with Less Weight
The main benefit of BFR is hypertrophy (muscle growth) while using less weight. If you’re someone who deals with joint pain or just wants to give your body a break from heavy loads, BFR lets you keep training hard without the risk of injury.

Faster Recovery
BFR also helps with recovery. Because you’re using lighter weights, you’re reducing the strain on your body. BFR helps reduce muscle soreness (DOMS), allowing you to train more frequently without burning out.

Maintain Muscle While Injured
Dealing with a nagging injury? BFR is an excellent tool for staying active while you recover. You can maintain or even build muscle without pushing through the pain of heavy lifting.

How Safe is BFR Training?

Like anything in the gym, safety comes first. BFR is generally safe when used correctly, but there are a few things to keep in mind:

• Hydration is key. Make sure you’re hydrated and have eaten before your session.

• Use proper equipment. Avoid cheap straps. Use validated BFR cuffs like the ones from Smart Tools.

• Stick to the recommended pressures. 50-60% for arms and 70-80% for legs.

• Don’t overdo it. 5-6 minutes per BFR exercise is plenty. You should want the cuffs off by the end.

How to Get Started with BFR

If you’re ready to give BFR a try, here’s a simple way to get started:

1. Choose one or two isolation exercises per workout.

2. Apply the BFR cuffs to your upper arms or legs, depending on the exercise.

3. Use lighter weights (around 30% of your 1RM) and follow the 30-15-15-15 rep scheme.

4. Be consistent. Like any training method, the benefits of BFR come with time and regular use.

You don’t need to overhaul your entire routine—just add BFR where it makes sense, especially on days when you want to focus on hypertrophy without taxing your joints.

Final Thoughts on BFR for Strength and Hypertrophy

BFR is not a magic bullet, but it’s a powerful tool for experienced lifters looking to add variety, improve recovery, and maximize muscle growth with less weight. If you’re dealing with joint pain, overtraining, or just want to try something new, BFR might be the game-changer you’re looking for. It’s like getting the best of both worlds—gains without the grind.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a lifter who's been training consistently, pushing heavy weights for your main lifts, but you're looking for ways to maximize your gains and enhance your recovery and maybe you've even heard about BFR or blood flow restriction training, but aren't sure how it fits into a serious lifting program then this episode's for you. My guest today, a leading expert in BFR, will show you how this technique can complement your heavy lifting and unlock new avenues for muscle growth. Bfr might even accelerate recovery, help with rehab and add an extra dimension to your isolation work, without overtaxing your central nervous system or risking overuse injuries. We're going to show you how to intelligently incorporate BFR to enhance your training. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:54

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm excited to get into blood flow restriction, or BFR training with Nick Colosi, founder and president of Smart Tools. Nick has a doctorate of chiropractic with extensive postgraduate training in sports rehab and performance. He founded Smart Tools in 2014 to innovate on products for soft tissue mobilization and later BFR training. These tools have been adopted by elite athletes across professional and collegiate sports, including LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers and I've used personally their Smart Cuffs myself for several years. Smart Tools is also the official BFR partner for the USA Olympic weightlifting team, now in full disclosure. After agreeing to have Nick on the show, smart Tools sent me a pair of the latest Smart Cuffs 4.0 to try out, and, of course, I've used their 3.0 for a long time, so that was a no-brainer. I tried them out and maybe we'll have a chance to talk about them during our conversation Today. You're going to learn from Nick how BFR can enhance muscle growth, accelerate recovery and complement your traditional lifting routine.

Philip Pape: 1:57

Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Philip, appreciate it All right, man. So let's just jump in with a scenario that many of our listeners can relate to, and this is a lifter who has solid experience already with a traditional type program. You know they're doing the compound lifts, squats, deadlifts. They might be using bench presses or barbells or machines and they want to add some more volume, maybe get some more hypertrophy, they want to get a pump, or maybe they are dealing with overtraining or recovery issues. Stress things like that. How can they use blood flow restriction to complement their lifting in the right way?

Nick Colosi: 2:33

Yeah, I mean it's a common question we get from our non-rehab customers or non-athlete customers, just general fitness. How do I use this just for my general fitness? How do I program it? It usually starts with let's define BFR Like hey, bfr blood flow restriction training we're restricting blood flow to the limb and exercising under a very light load. We're trying to mimic heavier loads. So we're going to exercise that maybe 30% of your one rep max and try to mimic 70 to 80% of your one rep max.

Nick Colosi: 3:07

And there's a lot of research behind that. And when you show people research, they're very shocked to know that there's this much research behind this. They're like, man, there's no way that works and there is there's a lot of research behind it. So, getting that out of the way and kind of saying, hey, this is very safe, this is very effective behind it. So getting that out of the way and kind of saying, hey, this is very safe, this is very effective, they got the cuffs, they got them on. They're finding their personalized their pressure, because that's very important. Finding limb occlusion pressure, or otherwise known as personal pressure, is vitally important to all that we do, as far as all of our programming, because it allows you to scale up and scale down as far as increasing pressure, decreasing weight or increasing weight and decreasing pressure depending on where you are in your training.

Nick Colosi: 3:49

So a typical prescription for back-of-letter terms for training is using it three to four times a week per muscle group. You want to isolate that muscle. So say like, hey, it's your bicep day. Maybe you have two or three bicep exercises you want to pick. You have two or three bicep exercises. You want to pick one of those exercises and do a BFR session with that one exercise. And a typical BFR session would be 30 reps for your first set and take a 30 second to a minute break and then 15 reps and then another 30 second to a minute break and then do another 15. And you kind of keep doing that until you get you don't want to go to like you know full exhaustion, but you want to get to like volitional failure. Right, you want to get to about where you're like okay, I got maybe one or two reps in me, save it in the tank.

Philip Pape: 4:33

You'll know where it is, because it's the point. You don't want to continue.

Nick Colosi: 4:37

Yeah, exactly, Typically it's around the five minute mark. Typically, if the load and pressure is correct, and by correct meaning, you want that thing off by five or six minutes. It's not a comfortable thing, it's not a spa treatment. It's like oh, this is going to be like a Normatec or something like that. It's like flush the systems. It's not that. However, it's highly effective at what it does.

Nick Colosi: 5:00

So if your goal is to increase strength and increase hypertrophy and decrease the load on the joints, BFR is a great, great accessory work to augment, you know, heavier lifting days. You want to maybe take a little lighter, because I see it a lot, especially at my age. You know I'm pushing 40 and you know, and I used to do a lot of lifting when I was younger and you see, a lot of people are like, yeah, my joints aren't what they were when I was 21. I can't lift as heavy as I did and as often as I did when I was younger, and so BFR is a great plugin for that. I mean, that's just one example, but it's a great example, right? I have people up to 85 years old using these things. I mean it's crazy, because they're just like I'm getting some great results and lifting these light loads.

Philip Pape: 5:46

Yeah, and I feel like it's still this secret in the community. A lot of people don't know about it still and they're like what the heck is that? I don't remember how I came across it years ago because I used to use the just cheap straps that you would just strap together and, oh man, you could screw that up easily. And then I came across, you guys, because I was looking into different products but I did find that I'm north of 40. So and I didn't get started to this until I was in my late thirties anyway.

Philip Pape: 6:13

But even now I deal with, you know, low back fatigue or shoulder fatigue or whatever. I've had a couple of surgeries and even just last week I was using the cuffs because I was having some agitation with my shoulder and I said you know, I want to just go higher rep on this, really get that close to failure without the load, and it's a great use case to fit into a lot of different populations. One of the questions people have is how does it truly mimic the 80 or 90% of one RM when you're not literally loading your body with that weight?

Nick Colosi: 6:47

Yeah, I mean, there's been so much research over the last decade and everybody kind of says something a little bit different. For a while it was metabolic stress, right, or tricking the brain, or maybe neurological, or it's just strictly mechanical loading. You're just doing that many reps.

Philip Pape: 7:02

Yeah, effective reps, yep, yep.

Nick Colosi: 7:04

Yeah, I mean, it really is about building up lactate, you know, not lactic acid.

Philip Pape: 7:08

Most people don't care, but since we're on a various science, no, let's do it because lactic acid people think of as a byproduct of hypertrophy. You're talking about lactate, so yeah, let's do that.

Nick Colosi: 7:23

Yeah, so I mean restricting oxygen-rich blood to the muscle and you're doing a lot of reps, about 50 to 75, depending on what pressure you have the cuff at, whether it be 30%, 40%, 50%, lop or 80%, so that really depends. So that's kind of what we know now is that there's that lactate buildup in the muscle restricting oxygen to the muscle, because what BFR is doing is it's restricting oxygenate buildup in the muscle, restricting oxygen to the muscle, because what BFR is doing is it's restricting oxygen-rich blood into the muscle but it's blocking those waste products out. Basically, imagine if you're doing like a high rep set of like 30 or 40 or 50. So something ridiculous, or like a HIIT training. Basically, you're going to feel exhausted. You kind of get that feeling with BFR but you get it very quickly and at very low loads. So it's used very commonly in the rehab setting for obvious reasons low load, you get recover faster.

Nick Colosi: 8:15

It's used in mainly for professional reasons, like for like athletes. It's used mainly for in-season training to deload joints, to maintain strength and hypertrophy. But you're deloading the joints NFL guys pretty much that's what they're doing now because their bodies are taking beating. Or what are we on now? Week three, going into week three. They're just starting to get beat up pretty good, so they're using it that way. Our NBA guys they use it mainly for recovery after games, but that's the pro athletes and the general athletes. They use it at all three levels. They use it during their regular training, they use it for recovery, for flushing, so there's a lot of different ways to use it. It's not just for isolation. There's a lot of different ways you can do BF.

Philip Pape: 8:59

Yeah. So that's the perfect segue, right? Because someone's thinking okay, let's say I'm on a four-day split very typical maybe upper-lower push-pull leg type split where they've got some compound lifts, some accessories and then some isolation. I mean you kind of alluded to earlier. You know a few days a week, a few different muscle groups, but you know you don't want to do all BFR and I'll tell you like there's value. And once you've done BFR you realize like sets of three to five aren't so bad sometimes and having variety in there is helpful, right? Because even with normal isolation work on a cable you might be up in the 15, 20 range for some of those. So give it to us Like what's a typical. You're going to substitute this for this or add this in with BFR.

Nick Colosi: 9:37

Yeah, I mean, kind of like I was saying before, you would substitute it. It's good to pick one exercise and substitute that as a BFR exercise. So, like biceps is just an easy example. You know, if you're doing bicep curls there's a thousand other bicep exercises you're doing, but you just pick one and then you do that rep and set scheme with BFR. That would probably be a good recommendation.

Nick Colosi: 10:02

If you're doing it for training and not for rehab and you have no other contraindications, that's also very important, making sure that you're clear to do BFR, because there are contraindications. Doing BFR like with anything I mean like with regular strength training there's contraindications. You want to be clear by a physician, but 50% LOP for the arm, 80%, 70% for the leg that is kind of where the sweet spot is now as far as LOP goes. And then you can play around with those pressures, kind of like I was saying before. You want to increase the pressure, decrease the load. So yeah, I mean that would be the typical. You know, if you're doing a push pull, I mean obviously the pulling muscles. You know bicep, you know if you're pushing muscles, tricep, you know that would be on your push days. You want to work your triceps and shoulders, you know for your push. And it's not just a distal muscle effect, it's also proximal. You're still going to get some shoulder activity.

Philip Pape: 10:48

Yeah, let's go on that. So, like, does that extend further down to, like, the pec area for bench presses, or is that a little bit less? Yeah?

Nick Colosi: 10:55

there was one research study that looked at that.

Philip Pape: 11:02

There is. There is some benefit to using it for chest exercises, for pec major, pec minor.

Nick Colosi: 11:04

Yeah, because for those listening, we're putting these in our upper arm or our upper leg and that's it right yeah, regardless of the exercise you're doing, it's always going to go on the upper arm, between your bicep and deltoid, and on the upper leg as far up on the hip as you can because you see incorrect use of this stuff on youtube with like upper calf and some other spots.

Nick Colosi: 11:20

Yeah, it's all the same plumbing and that's what you know, that's what we say, that's what Dr Nicholas Rolnick in New York says it's all the same plumbing, right? So there's no reason. You're only increasing the chances of having a nerve-related issue if you have it that far down because it's more superficial. So we do recommend it to put on the upper leg because it's thicker. Nerves are not as superficial. You'll have less complications, yeah, cool.

Philip Pape: 11:44

So you mentioned the arm. Definitely like biceps and tricep work for anybody listening, if you want, like a massive pump and just everything popping out. I mean not that that's the end goal, but it's a nice short-term reward when you do this, yeah yeah 30, 15, 15, 15. Like, that's like the protocol typically and start way lighter than you think with the load. Trust me, and start way later. Yeah, yeah.

Nick Colosi: 12:07

That's so you know like you need an ego check, right? Because you're like, ah, I can. You know I can do a 50 pound dumbbell curls, no problem, put the BFR cups on. Then you get about maybe five or six reps in. You're like, wow, this was a bad decision.

Philip Pape: 12:20

Yeah, yeah, it resets you for the next time You're like okay, now I get it, I get it. Okay, so limit collusion pressure. Just for folks to know, that's the amount of pressure that you put on the limb, and there's different ways to gauge that. Right, like you guys, your equipment does it automatically with some advanced sensors. I'd be curious to know how that happens, cause I know you've evolved the technology as well. Yeah.

Nick Colosi: 12:40

Yeah, I mean we first started we really weren't finding LLP at all and we were just kind of saying, hey, inflate it to a pressure between 100 and 200. And then once you're at maybe at a 7 out of 10, you're good to go Get out there and give it your all. And then, as things went on, it's like, okay, that's probably not the safest way to do it. It's just because that's highly, highly subjective. So when we came out with our Gen 2 model, we started using a handheld Doppler and that's great. You're finding limb occlusion pressure. You're finding that personalized pressure.

Nick Colosi: 13:12

For that user it's not the most easiest thing to do, especially on yourself. To this day I still can't find it on my foot from my lower extremity, can't do it. So it's great for the clinic because you need two people, but for the regular gym goer, they're never going to do that. We wanted the solutions for both. You know, ease of use in the clinic, but also ease of use for patients, athletes and general fitness. You know enthusiasts, as we like to call them, because usually you know people usually using this product are the ones that are very serious about their fitness. It's not going to be somebody that's like, yeah, I work out once a week and do some BFR. That's not the person. The person that's using BFR is really into fitness and know what they're doing.

Nick Colosi: 13:48

They're listening to this podcast, man, they are listening to this podcast, not pandering, I swear, but yeah. So the Gen 3 electronic pressure sensors built in both Gen 3 and Gen 4 products that we sell now they have the pressure sensor built into it with algorithms that control that sensor, and we're actually only one of two products to be validated. We're actually validated for LOP accuracy by Mayo Clinic, so we take great pride in that, because a lot of products out there say they do that, but they actually either failed their validation test or never been validated, probably because it's not accurate. So it's easy to say that, but once you have that peer-reviewed research backing you up on what you're saying, we take great pride.

Philip Pape: 14:25

Yeah, and again for the listener who has never done this before, it feels like a blood pressure cuff basically, and I know in your version three so I had the three and now I have the four it was you had to plug it into a unit and then that would pump up the unit and I think it was like a multi-chamber system and now it's maybe a single chamber bladder or something like that. Yeah, you had a multi-chambered system. Very briefly, Okay, I mean that was probably like the first six weeks.

Nick Colosi: 14:49

That was our Gen 1. You can't find LOP, oh, okay, yeah, so if it's a multi-chamber bladder system, you can't find LOP, and we moved on. We moved on to our Gen 2 units and that was a single chamber bladder system. That was like in 2018. And we've used single bladder chamber systems ever since.

Philip Pape: 15:07

Okay, yeah, and you said the upper arm maybe 50%, I think. I recall in the app you can go up to 60% on the arm and you implied more than that for the leg right.

Nick Colosi: 15:18

Correct, yeah, so you can do for the arm anywhere between 30 and 60 and then for the leg right. Correct, yeah, so you can do for the arm anywhere between 30 and 60 and then for the leg anywhere between 40 and 90.

Philip Pape: 15:26

Yeah, man, and I personally find the leg more uncomfortable than the arm, you know, probably just because it's just so massive, but others may have a different experience. For me it just feels like, wow, that's tight, even when it's not up there. But then when you start doing some, let's say, front squats, I mean, man, talk about a totally different experience, like what's your favorite leg movement or two with the cuffs? Probably lunges, which is not a favorite without the cuffs for a lot of people.

Nick Colosi: 15:52

I know right, yeah, Bulgarian split squats. I mean I hate those. I do them, but I hate them with BFR. It's like a next level. Hate Like it is.

Philip Pape: 16:04

Do you do them loaded, in that you still do them loaded, or can you do them almost body weight? In that case, I haven't done BFR ball bearings because yeah, yeah, yeah, but lunges like walking lunges.

Nick Colosi: 16:10

Yeah, walking lunges. Yeah, yeah, walking lunges.

Philip Pape: 16:12

Because walking lunges. Well, I mean you could throw a barbell on your back if you be pretty brutal, right, typically body weight. I'll do body weight.

Nick Colosi: 16:17

Yeah, nothing crazy, yeah cool, I'll also just walk with them too for like 20 minutes or 30 minutes.

Philip Pape: 16:26

Just do some aerobic stuff, that's awesome because you know, and I'm sure you come across this misconception and you mentioned already, like oh, bfr, lighter weight Sounds so much easier until you realize squeezing your limb and doing tons of reps of something is not. It's a different hard, it's a different form of hard. But for something like that where you're doing a leg day and you're doing accessories for hypertrophy, like quad war, split stuff, maybe step ups Some of those people don't really like as much anyway with load, and I could see this being a selling point and I'm selling myself on it Like, yeah, do the walking lunges, just throw in the cuffs and just walk. So it's convenient and you're still getting this nice workout.

Nick Colosi: 17:02

Yep, yeah, I think it's a lot of our. I mean, I do it, but anybody can do it. A lot of our older customers do it to boost their aerobic capacity. You don't want to go on a 16 mile bike ride with them or anything like that, but like a 20, 30 minute decently brisk walk with cuffs more than enough. We don't recommend doing all four cuffs at one time. That's one thing that I just absolutely detest when I see that on social media. Because you kind of need to do that. If you have a multi-chamber bladder cuff, you need that because it's not going to give you that stress to the muscle. You need to do four cuffs at one time all limbs but the single chamber bladder system like ours, not only don't need to do that, it's recommended not to do that because it's not safe at all. Got it Good to know not safe.

Philip Pape: 17:51

Just two cuffs. If you need to challenge yourself, throw on a rucksack or something.

Nick Colosi: 17:55

Yeah, exactly Throw on a rucksack if you need to challenge yourself.

Philip Pape: 17:58

I like that man. Yeah, I forgot about that trick, though, just walking with the cuffs. I don't know, I haven't read through all the literature that comes with the new smart cuffs, but I assume there's some resources you have that kind of give people these ideas.

Nick Colosi: 18:10

Yeah, I mean you can simply. I mean, if you want to make it easy, just put it on. You know, starting off, just do like 50% LLP and put it on your legs, pump it up to 50% LLP and just walk for 20 minutes and then, if you get tired, just deflate them. Just deflate them. And yeah, I mean, safety is number one. Safety is the most important thing. We just don't want people abusing it and then potentially injuring themselves. We have a lot of self protections in the app and also the product, but you only can do so much.

Philip Pape: 18:41

Nothing in the show constitutes also the product, but you only can do so much. Nothing in the show constitutes medical advice.

Allan: 18:50

Please seek consultation with your doctor before starting VFR training. Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip, pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, philip Piper is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 19:43

Are there scenarios where BFR is actually more effective? And I'm thinking of training specifically, not necessarily rehab, but I don't know how much research studies you guys have done on that, maybe even the cardio that you just mentioned but from a training perspective, would you say BFR is superior to X, for I mean we always tell people, if you can lift heavy, lift heavy, because there's a huge neurological component to that that you're just not going to get with lighter loads.

Nick Colosi: 20:09

And we never tell people that this is going to replace heavy lifting. That's also not true. We always tell people this is a accessory work, this is to augment your heavier lifts. You're going to improve your heavier lifts by integrating BFR into your training. So we're not saying this is going to replace it. It is a nice adjunct to it. It's a nice accessory work. It's nice to help prevent injury and recover from injury. If you got a nagging shoulder like my shoulder is always pain. So like if you got a nagging shoulder, nagging elbow, you know you tweak something, do some BFR for the week, you know, and just take it lighter and let those tendons recover. You know I also noticed my tendons don't recover as fast as they used to. You know, you know when I was 21,. Right, you can go out drinking and then you know not to worry about golfer's elbow, but it's, yeah. So that's where it really is highly effective.

Philip Pape: 20:58

That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, no, as an accessory, and the things we mentioned before. What about? And then travel comes to mind. Actually, we're going to a family vacation next weekend. I would never ask my wife like to let me go to a gym while we're on a family vacation, but I could bring my little you know case of BFR cuffs and do stuff in the room. Gives even more options than just like bands or TRX or something no-transcript.

Nick Colosi: 21:50

Active lifestyle. Nowadays they're requesting for better equipment.

Philip Pape: 21:55

Until you stay in an Airbnb. You see, I love bringing guests like you on, because then it's selfishly. I'm like, okay, here's all the ideas for this, because you could do pushups, you could do all sorts of body weight things, and now you're getting it up into the quasi or mimic of a loaded regime of that movement, which is awesome. So let's just tie up on the safety thing, since you've alluded to it a couple of times. You mentioned the pressure which can be controlled if you have good equipment. You mentioned not doing four limbs at once. You mentioned not going too long with these. On Any other key things people need to be aware of and stupid things that people have done that they shouldn't.

Nick Colosi: 22:31

Yeah, I mean make sure you're hydrated. Make sure you're hydrated and make sure you've eaten something that day. Don't go in, don't try doing it fast. It's probably not the greatest idea If you have any blood disorders or anything like that. There's a significant amount of contraindications Nothing major, though, like pretty much. If you're cleared to do strength training, you can do BFR. So there's really not, like you know, special contraindications for BFR that you wouldn't really have for regular strength training. I mean, maybe cancer, that's about it. Pregnancy, although that one's that's a hot topic.

Philip Pape: 23:04

It always is, even with lifting.

Nick Colosi: 23:05

We always say pregnancy but we'd have. There's no research to say that it's hard with pregnancy. It's just play it safe.

Philip Pape: 23:12

And because there's no research to say that it's effective with pregnancies. Right, exactly, all right, so that's good. Let's talk about recovery, then. What are, what are some ways people might think of using BFR for recovery? You you already mentioned a couple, like one being if your joints are acting up instead of doing your normal training session, put this in there. What I'd be concerned about is people starting doing more volume than their body can handle and actually backfiring, you know, because they're like adding this into what they're already doing. So what are some good ways to think of it that way?

Nick Colosi: 23:40

Yeah, I mean from a recovery standpoint. I mean IPC comes to mind ischemic preconditioning. We know that's on our 3.0 Pro model. You can do it with a 4.0 model, although with new updates we're going to make it a lot more automated. So IPC stands for ischemic preconditioning, aka recovery mode. Basically what it does, it will inflate to a pressure. Usually it's about 80 to 100% LOP, so almost full occlusion.

Nick Colosi: 24:10

It's entirely passive, Okay. So like I remember one person was like yeah, I put IPC and I started exercising. I was like why did you do that? So like it was incredibly painful. I was like, yeah, no shit. Like it's not meant to be active, it's definitely passive. So like, like, don't do that. Like nowhere in our user manual says that. But anyways, we said entirely passive. So you just sit there. It's like a norm attack, right. So you just sit there, watch tv, do whatever. It will inflate and it will hold that for five minutes and after five minutes it will deflate. And then it will deflate and stay deflated for three minutes and then it will five minutes on again. So five minutes on, three minutes off. You can do that three times and then that's it.

Nick Colosi: 24:46

That's's the recovery period and the research is relatively mixed up. It's not a slam dunk, not a home run. That just does everything that some research studies says it. It increases VO2 max one to 2%. So for the average person, is that really that big of a deal? Yeah, kind of. For the pro athlete, that's everything right. One to 2%, that's huge. But it does reduce DOMS. It does improve your recovery for the next day. So if you had a hard workout, do a recovery mode for 10, 15 minutes when you get home, after you shower or whatever, and just sitting on the couch great way to just recover.

Nick Colosi: 25:18

You can do that on arm or legs. Arms are a little bit more painful, so you got to be a little bit more painful. So you got to be a little bit more mindful. Like, would I go 100% LLP on the arms? For LLP, Probably not. I'd probably go more like 80%. It's funny, the research is really mixed. So I keep saying 80% or 100% because there's been studies that have shown that both are effective. For IPC it's not just 100% LLP anymore, it's, you know, could be 80%. And for the arm, you know you got the neurovascular bundle 80%. And for the arm, you got the neurovascular bundle. It's pretty superficial. So you want to be mindful of that. So numbness and tingling is a lot easier to get to occur on your arm than it is on your leg. So 80% LLP for a recovery session for the arm it's usually what I do. But yeah, I mean, that's how it's really used for recovery. Besides for your active recovery days or your light lift days, Besides that kind of what we already touched on already. That's how it's usually commonly used.

Philip Pape: 26:10

Yeah, that's a really good one. I wasn't aware of that recovery mode. I think that's awesome because that is super common for especially like a really heavy low back workout or a leg day, to just have that bit of DOMS. And I'm going to try that out and, you know, let people know how it goes. You said it even slightly increases VO2 max. You said one or 2%. So it's something which I want to pull on that thread because earlier you also mentioned the walking with it and whatnot. What does this science show if it's used kind of on a regular basis as a conditioning tool, what you potentially could get out of it?

Nick Colosi: 26:41

Yeah, you're just stressing the body. You're just stressing the body to a greater degree in a very short amount of time. So that's pretty much the theory about how it's going to increase that VO2 max Research. Again, sometimes you can make it say what you want to say, Sure.

Philip Pape: 26:55

I appreciate there's nuance. Yeah, there's.

Nick Colosi: 26:57

There's nuance, right, and there's a lot of there's just mixed results on it. So the theory behind it really isn't all there or, as we don't really know for sure how it's doing it, and that's kind of what we have to live with right now. We know it's safe to do. We definitely know it's safe to do because I mean, it's funny, as you talk, to like orthos, right, and they're recommending BFR for their patients and the patients would be like, oh, that sounds dangerous and the ortho is like I just had you on this. I'm in surgery in the OR, restricted fully for two hours, you're okay for five minutes. They just find it silly and comical and you're not even a full occlusion, you're at percentage.

Philip Pape: 27:35

Yeah, no, no. But some people do have that instant reaction when they don't know, and even listening to the show and the curiosity they're like let's step back. Are you guys talking about just completely cutting off all blood flow? You know, and it's not that there is a safety element, you have to be aware and do it properly. There is some tolerance, like let's just admit it.

Nick Colosi: 27:54

Yeah, back to the safety point. Yeah, that's why we do it that way. That's why we do personalized pressure, because we're almost guaranteeing not almost, we are guaranteeing that you're not going to exercise at full solution, as opposed to you just taking a wrist strap and just wrapping it and you see that right. You see those BFR straps on Amazon the 20 bucks. It's like cool, if you want to do it, go for it. Me first, I would never do that. I feel like it's very unsafe, easy to occlude and there's just a lot of drawbacks.

Nick Colosi: 28:29

But yeah, that's how it started, right, arnold was doing that back in the 60s and 70s. Right, he was back, he was taking I don't even know what the hell he was using. It was like a towel or something. He was just wrapping his arms and he was chasing the pump, right, and that's Arnold works for him. But we've evolved a little bit. The tech's evolved. We're not blind to the fact that people use wrist straps or BFR straps or whatever, because some people yeah, we understand it's a higher price point for our products, the digital, electronic BFR products, we understand.

Philip Pape: 28:52

Yeah, no, and I've seen the evolution over the years as well. I did used to have straps like that that had the little clip, and it was like the difference from one limb to another and one session to another. It was so big you were just wondering if you were getting the right. You don't want to tighten it too much because you're like, oh man, turning purple, what's going on?

Nick Colosi: 29:07

We're not good. I mean purple. It's a yeah, that's a relatively once you're exercising, relatively normal reaction. But if you're purple before you start exercising, probably over tightened in the pit.

Philip Pape: 29:19

Exactly, man, exactly All right. So I know you've worked with athletes. I know you have this partnership with the Olympic weightlifting team. People want to hear some cool stories. I know you talked about things on other podcasts, but you work with LeBron James. I used to be a Miami Heat fan, by the way, and it was a big. It was sad when he went to the Cavs from our perspective. Hey, you stole from us in the beginning. I mean yeah, no, I mean that's what I mean yeah, yeah, yeah, it went both ways. Exactly. I was actually in Florida when he did the announcement and I hadn't been living there in years, but that was funny. So either him or you know we just had the Olympics, so maybe that's a super relevant what you guys have been doing there outfitting them with the cuffs.

Nick Colosi: 29:56

Yeah, actually, lebron, I live in Cleveland, by the way. Cool, I figured that. Yeah, Okay, that makes sense. Around the same time, yeah, I played LeBron's high school team, akron, in Akron. Yeah, in Akron. Yeah, yeah, he lives in Bath, right outside. But yeah, no, he uses a lot for recovery, so like on the plane after games. He uses a little bit in off-season training, but mainly for recovery purposes, like a lot of the other NBA guys do.

Nick Colosi: 30:20

As far as our you know, usa USA Weightlifting was interesting. They actually were using our product, unbeknownst to me, I have no idea. Sometimes it's amazing people that will email you and be like, hey, we're using your product. I'm like, I had no idea you're using our product, no clue. So, usa Weightlifting they've been using our product now for about three or four years and they're like we love the BFR product, we've used others.

Nick Colosi: 30:45

Our athletes love your product. Would you be able to sponsor us for the upcoming Olympics? I'm like, yeah for sure, whatever you need. So we started working closer with them about a year and a half ago as far as protocols and things like that. Hampton Morris, who won the bronze, he's been using our product now for quite a while, even before the partnership and he used a lot for recovery. He used a lot mostly exclusively for recovery, and he's just like I just love the way I feel the next day or immediately after doing the recovery modes for my lips. So, and he won bronze, so that was pretty cool. I think he was a male weightlifter to win a medal since 84.

Philip Pape: 31:18

Yeah, I know it's crazy. We are not dominant in that sport, so that's pretty cool to be tied to that yeah.

Nick Colosi: 31:23

Yeah, and he's young, he's just a kid, he's like 20 years old, so that was really cool. So, yeah, I mean they've been using a lot and, being as portable as it is, it was really nice. They can take a Harris, they can have it in the village and take it everywhere they want.

Philip Pape: 31:37

So he was using it like after every training session. I'm just curious, like the protocol there.

Nick Colosi: 31:42

Yeah, he would take it. He wasn't using it every night, but he was using it pretty frequently. He was probably doing it maybe three or four days a week for recovery purposes. Yeah, some pretty cool stories. That was a really cool story. It's always good when you don't know that they're using it and they love it. Or you see it on social media with somebody and you're like I had no idea they got it. I don't know if I can mention his name, but he's a head of a. I don't know if I can mention his name, but he's a head of a major studio like NBC, cbs, abc, and he was using the product. I was like that's really cool. And he's like, hey, let's jump on a call and go over. I'm like don't you have anything? They're like I'm sure you have better. You know, like to waste your time on me. Like you know that was really cool, like awesome guy devoting time. You know, for this was really cool.

Philip Pape: 32:25

Yeah, and for his physical health too, you know so.

Nick Colosi: 32:28

Yeah, You'd be surprised who orders off the website that you know, because a lot of, like athletes or movie stars, they want just free products, sometimes Right, and other times they just order off the website. I was like I wonder if that's you know, so-and-so you know.

Philip Pape: 32:42

No, that's awesome. I mean so because people are always wondering, like, what does this person do? Because they want to emulate it, and that's not always the right approach when it comes to training because they're elite athletes. But it does lead me to ask do you guys have like training programs that you offer associated with the product or even for free online for people to check out?

Nick Colosi: 33:02

So right now, all of our education is more clinical sports, performance-based, for health professionals and personal trainers, strength coaches, things like that.

Nick Colosi: 33:10

But as BFR has now evolved, almost half of our customer base is non-health professional, so it's like patients and athletes and, just again, just general fitness enthusiasts. So we are currently transitioning to offer more options for them, for more custom programming. So we're launching a new website in about 60 days we are going to start doing 30-minute free consultations with customers to just say, hey, what are your needs, what are your goals, how do you want to apply this to your training? And then we can kind of go over that with them and then offer them, you know, online coaching, just in BFR, you know, if they want. So I'm like, yeah, that's 30 minutes enough, just I just need to get started. Others are like I need my handheld from start to finish, right, so then we're going to start doing that and offering some more specialty courses as well, you know that are non-clinical, just so people you know people are using it not only correctly but also, you know, optimally for their training, so they get the most bang for their buck.

Philip Pape: 34:11

Cool man. Yeah, no, I, without being in a walking infomercial, I'm probably going to be using them more, maybe posting some stuff for folks, so those listening to the podcast. Maybe I'll do a follow-up episode or two from this on taking the information and talking about the recovery mode and walking with it, and maybe some tips for folks who want to try it, Because I do think it opens up a whole other world. That again, I don't know why more people haven't heard about it. I don't know if you know why that's the case or not.

Nick Colosi: 34:35

I think it's because it sounds dangerous. It's relatively unknown, mainly because the price point was so high for so long. But I think we're at a point now where we're getting the price point down. I think our 3.0 is 299, right. So as far as BFR goes for electronics, it's the most affordable electronic BFR device you can find. You won't find a more affordable product for that short of like straps. So making it affordable was like step one. Step two was getting it into the hands of patients from primary market was clinical, so we did that. Now it's okay. We got athletes using it. We got people that are working out four or five days a week. They're really into their fitness. They've heard about BFR. They want to kind of take it to the next level or they want to augment their training older and they want to deload the joints, you know, and it's still workout and still lift weights. So it's interesting the amount of people that it can be used for. It's really it's way more than actually I even thought when we first launched the product.

Philip Pape: 35:35

Yeah, that's usually what happens, right? People start using it in ways that you didn't expect and then boom new market.

Nick Colosi: 35:40

Yeah, although I did have one person use it. They're like I have. They're like they had four cuffs on and they had like a heart rate monitor and then they had something else on their ears and then like something on their head. I was like that's a bit much. I think you're taking the wearable thing to a whole different level that I don't want to go to. So I was like tone it down a little bit. But yeah, people are using it in ways that I never thought. I'm like ah, that's a pretty good idea.

Philip Pape: 36:04

Yeah, and I know there's an entire podcast devoted just to BFR, right, every single episode, because I can imagine now how connected we are with all the integrations, with the rings, with the wearables. There's just sky's the limit on how we study all this and connect it all together. But if there's one thing that we didn't cover today that you wished I had asked, what would that be?

Nick Colosi: 36:25

It's a bigger question, probably like something that you regret or think you could have done differently, and that would have been. I mean, I don't regret anything as far as like the product goes, because sometimes you have to take those lumps to learn right. So, like our 3.0 was our first electronic product we ever did. We were learning. So it's like if it's everything smooth sailing, you are not ready for failure. You know like you're not pushing yourself right. You know you kind of have to take those lumps. But yeah, I mean, I guess what we have cooking, I guess you know. So we have two more products that we're working on that aren't BFR related but they're health and fitness related, so can't really mention it. But they're health and fitness related, so I can't really mention it, but it's in the fitness strength realm. So I'm really excited about that because it works well with BFR and it goes to our. You know we're making things simple and easy to use for people, making it affordable and making it affordable that that's kind of what our company's all about.

Philip Pape: 37:19

What a tease man. What a tease. All right, I guess I'll see what that is.

Nick Colosi: 37:22

Yeah, I'll see in the next months with the new product. That's kind of what we're looking at. So we're about a year out from it.

Philip Pape: 37:28

Yeah, no. So just for the listener knows, I was more than excited to have Nick on here, because I use the product myself and any product that you go from one version to another and they seem to have listened to every single thing that customers wanted changed about that, even though the first product's great. I think they're doing the right thing. It's kind of like some of the apps that I use that they're super involved with the community and the user base, so I respect that. I think you're doing great work. Those listening. We'll throw some links in the show notes. Where would you like listeners to learn more about you and your work?

Nick Colosi: 37:57

Yeah, our website, smarttoolspluscom. You can just Google it. You can Google Smart Cuffs, smarttoolscom or SmartToolsPluscom. Yeah, that's probably the best way. You know, we're rehauling our blog so it's much more educational. Right now it's kind of again we're building a new website, so we're kind of just like in transition period right now. But, yeah, we want to be much more active on our blog. As far as you know, educating, you know non-health professionals as well as health professionals on how to best use our product. You know how best to use BFR Cool man.

Philip Pape: 38:28

What I want to do is I'm going to put together a quick little like suggested kind of program thing, maybe run it by you and let the listeners know they can download that as well and kind of connect all this together that way for our listeners. Awesome, man. Well, thanks so much for coming on. It was a pleasure. Love learning about this stuff.

Nick Colosi: 38:42

Absolutely Thanks for having me.

Never "Fall Off Track" Again with Your Fitness or Fat Loss (Risk Management) | Ep 234

Are you constantly "falling off track" with your fitness or fat loss goals?

Life has a way of throwing curveballs at our carefully laid plans. Illness, work stress, family emergencies, or unexpected travel can derail even the most dedicated among us.

But what if you could create a fitness and nutrition approach that adapts to life's chaos instead of crumbling under it?

You'll learn why traditional "perfect" plans often fail in the face of real-life challenges and how the engineering concept of Risk Management can help you build flexibility and resilience into your routine.

Discover simple ways to identify and prepare for both foreseeable and unforeseeable obstacles, and the mindset shift that turns setbacks into learning opportunities.

Whether you're struggling with consistency or just want to "bulletproof" your current approach, you'll learn about a tool to create a sustainable, adaptable fitness plan that keeps you progressing no matter what life throws your way.

To master flexible dieting for fat loss, muscle building, and better health, download my free Nutrition 101 guide at witsandweights.com/free

Main Takeaways:

• Risk management in fitness involves planning for both known and unknown challenges

• Building flexibility into your plan is key to long-term consistency and success

• A resilient mindset sees obstacles as opportunities to learn and improve, not reasons to quit

• Regular assessment and adjustment of your approach ensures continued progress

Episode summary:

In today's fast-paced world, the challenge of maintaining a consistent fitness regimen can be daunting. Many embark on new fitness journeys with enthusiasm, only to be derailed by life's unpredictabilities. This episode explores how engineering principles of risk management can be the key to creating resilient and adaptable fitness plans that withstand everyday chaos. The traditional all-or-nothing approach often leads to frustration and inconsistency when life doesn't align with rigid plans. By incorporating risk management, you can craft a sustainable strategy that adapts to life's inevitable curveballs.

Risk management is a concept commonly used in engineering to foresee and mitigate potential disruptions. By applying this to fitness, we can anticipate both foreseeable and unforeseeable challenges. Foreseeable risks are those we can predict, such as work deadlines or planned travel, while unforeseeable risks are the unexpected events like family emergencies. The key to success is developing a plan that can adapt to both types of risks. This approach allows for flexibility, much like a shock absorber cushions a car from road bumps, ensuring that your fitness goals remain within reach even when life throws you off course.

One practical step is to identify potential risks by reflecting on past experiences and brainstorming possible future disruptions. Consider the likelihood and impact of each risk, then prioritize the top three to focus on. For each risk, develop contingency plans, or "if-then" strategies, to ensure you're prepared. For example, if work commitments often interfere with workouts, have a quick home workout ready as a backup. If social events tend to derail your nutrition, plan to eat a protein-focused meal before attending or decide in advance what you'll consume.

Flexibility should be built into your overall plan. For training, this might mean allowing your workout schedule to stretch over an extra day or two. For nutrition, consider using ranges for calorie and macro targets, rather than rigid numbers. Having multiple meal options available ensures you can adapt your eating habits even when your routine is disrupted. The iterative process of assessing and adjusting your strategies ensures they remain effective over time.

The ultimate goal is not perfection, but progress. Risk management shifts your mindset from seeing setbacks as failures to viewing them as opportunities to learn and improve. Each challenge becomes a lesson, and the process of adapting reinforces your ability to navigate life's unpredictabilities. This approach empowers you to maintain control over your fitness journey, transforming potential obstacles into stepping stones for success.

To summarize, a perfect plan doesn't exist because life is inherently unpredictable. Risk management provides a framework for creating flexible, resilient strategies that keep you moving forward despite disruptions. This episode is a valuable resource for anyone seeking to achieve long-term fitness success without succumbing to the rigidity of traditional plans. For further guidance, visit witsandweights.com/free for additional resources that support this flexible approach to nutrition and fitness.

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Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever started a new fat loss phase or training program with enthusiasm, only to have it derailed by unexpected events like illness, work, stress or family emergencies, and you find yourself constantly falling off track and struggling to maintain consistency with your goals, this episode's for you. Today, I'm going to reveal how the engineering concept of risk management can help you create a bulletproof plan that adapts to life's chaos and uncertainty. You'll learn how to build flexibility and resilience into your nutrition and training approach so you can keep making progress even when life throws curveballs your way. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are diving into a concept from the corporate world risk management. Hear me out, it is not as boring as it sounds. It's not just for big corporations and Wall Street types. This is an engineering principle and I've used it almost every day in my engineering career. That can be a real secret weapon for creating a sustainable, resilient, adaptable plan and in this case we're talking about your fitness, your nutrition and so on that will then stand up to real life, because, think about it, how many times have you started something new. You're super excited. You're entering a fat loss phase, starting a new training program. You're ready to go Monday? Right, I'm going to start on Monday. You're all fired up, ready to go, and then it falls apart, sometimes pretty quickly, when unexpected stuff happens. Right, maybe you got sick, maybe you had to travel for work, maybe some family obligations just took over your schedule. You know, 20 people visited your house, whatever. And suddenly that quote, unquote, perfect plan that you had mapped out goes right out the window, and so we're going to talk about that today. I'm going to show you how to use risk management principles to create an approach that can bend without breaking, no matter what life throws your way, because that's what we want, that is what is sustainable, something that you can just keep doing, no matter what, knowing that the default is life. Life is the default. Things that are unexpected is actually the norm. And before we dive into that, just really quick. If you enjoy the show, if you want to hear more episodes like this, hit follow in your app. It helps people find the show, but it also makes sure that you don't miss an episode. Just hit the follow button, make sure that you go into your podcast app you're listening right now and click, follow or subscribe whatever it's called.

Philip Pape: 2:50

All right, let's talk about the main reason that most plans fail, and this this is really any plan right, whether it's in the corporate world, engineering or with your fitness. And the biggest culprit here is rigidity. We create perfect, ideal scenarios in our heads, and I do this as well. Our future self is going to be perfect. I'm going to work out five days a week, I'm going to meal prep every Sunday, I'm never going to touch food after 7 pm, I'm going to get my 12,000 steps a day and it's just going to work out Right. Sound familiar, even if you think you have the discipline and willpower to do it. And the problem is, life doesn't care about this, life doesn't care about your plan. Life is messy, it's unpredictable, it loves to throw wrenches even to the best laid schemes that we create. And then what do most people do when this happens? They think they failed, they beat themselves up. They oftentimes just give up like, oh, I just can't be consistent, I can't stick to my plan because this happened, and that is the all or nothing mentality that leads to frustration and inconsistency. And this is where risk management comes in.

Philip Pape: 4:00

In engineering, risk management, sometimes called risk and opportunities management, is about planning for the known and unknown risks to get to your outcome, to achieve your objective, to get the product out the door on time, on budget, meeting all the requirements, and it's not about creating a perfect plan. It's about creating one that is resilient to all the things that you may not foresee, and there's two types of risk we deal with. So this is really important. There are foreseeable risks. These are the known unknowns. Okay, these are things we can predict that might happen, based on our experience and based on common sense. It's the things that you know are going to happen, but you're not sure when like getting sick, like having to travel for work, like dealing with holidays, social events. You know they're going to happen. They're known unknowns. That's foreseeable. Then there's unforeseeable risks. These are unknown unknowns, things that you don't know. You don't know the curve balls that you could not have possibly anticipated, like a family emergency that pops up or you suddenly have to move, or a global pandemic hits right, so sound familiar. And those are the. So there's the what we know, we don't know, and what we don't know that we don't know. And the thing is, we know that all of that is going to happen. We know that the unknowns are going to happen and we know that the unknown unknowns are going to happen.

Philip Pape: 5:31

So the key is to create a plan that can adapt to both types of risks. And instead of a rigid and flexible plan which guess what? Hint, that's what diets are like the keto diet or vegetarianism or whatever it is rigid and inflexible we want to build a strategy that's more like a shock absorber, right? It can cushion the impact of the bumps of life and then just allow you to keep moving forward, like a really good suspension on a car, you know, not like a finely tuned sports car trying to go off road, right, but actually something that can handle all the bumps. So how do we actually do this? So I'm going to give you just a few practical steps here. The first one, of course, is we have to identify what those risks are and this is reflection, this is brainstorming Anything that could derail your plan.

Philip Pape: 6:15

Go through the list, take a piece of paper out and think about your life and, over the next six months, what could happen Work deadlines, family commitments, do you get sick on a regular basis, or your family or your child gets sick and it could make you sick. And it's not like you're trying to predict when exactly these are going to happen, although in some cases, like social events or the deadlines, you know when they're going to happen. And then you're basically leaving room for the things you know are going to happen. You're just not sure when the things you know you're going to happen and when they're happening, and then even some things that you may not have a clue they're going to happen, and then for each of those, you want to identify how likely it's to happen and how much it would impact your plan, because some things may not matter that much, right, like, okay, you have a work deadline. It creates stress, but if you know for sure you're going to schedule in your training in the morning and work doesn't start till later and it's not going to matter, then maybe it's not going to impact your plan as much. But it might impact your food plan, right, having having more stress or having a situation where you have to go into work more frequently or something. So for each one of these, you want to know is it how likely it is and how much will impact your plan, and then you can prioritize the ones that you want to focus on the most, and I would just keep it simple and literally just, you know, circle the top three that you want to focus on for this exercise.

Philip Pape: 7:36

Now step three develop strategies to deal with each risk. This is develop strategies to deal with each risk. This is contingency plans. These are what I've sometimes called if-then strategies. If you often miss workouts due to work, then have a 20-minute home workout ready to go as a backup. If a social event is going to come up for work let's say you get invited to a happy hour and you're going to go because it's good for business or whatever and it normally derails your nutrition then I'm going to eat a small protein-focused meal before I go out or I'm going to have a plan ready to go to choose what I eat and drink at any event. Right. So if, then, eat and drink at this at any event, right. So if then, if unexpected travel comes up, then I'm going to research nearby or the hotel gym in advance, or I'm going to pack my bands or my blood full restriction training cuffs for a in-room workout, right. So again, it's if this thing happens. I don't know when it's going to happen. I don't know how long it's going to be. I'm going to have a then strategy, a contingency plan for it.

Philip Pape: 8:47

The other thing that complements this, that supports this, is building in flexibility to your whole plan in general. By default right Now it depends on what we're talking about. So, for example, training, training sessions Instead of saying I'm absolutely going to work out five days a week, you can say I have a plan for a five day. You know five days of training. But because I know sometimes I'm not able to do that, I'm okay stretching out my week by a day or two and still getting in on my workouts. I just might have an extra day there or I might shift them back and forth, right. So either the number of training sessions can kind of spread out beyond that week or I know that I have flexibility in the days that I can train right. If you're only training three days a week, you probably have more flexibility to do that than, say, if your training program is five or six days. So that's some flexibility on the training side.

Philip Pape: 9:40

For your food, I love ranges, right Minimums and ranges for calorie macro targets. So again, it depends on what you're going for. But let's say you're in a fat loss plan, you have calorie and protein target. I would want to hit the minimum protein but then kind of get within 100 or 150 calories of the calorie target, either direction from fats or carbs. Right, like, create the amount of flexibility you need to know that it's sustainable.

Philip Pape: 10:08

Another flexibility is eating throughout the week, right, when you do meal prep and when you have quick options to go to in your pantry and you are smart about your grocery shopping ahead of time so that you have your fridge, your cabinets, your pantry filled up with multiple options. Then, if something throws you off during the week and you can't stick to your normal meal plan, your normal routine, even if you have prepped it, you'll at least have a second, third or fourth backup that you can go to and you're not just reaching for the candy jar or reaching for the vending machine, right, or just you're not sure what to do. So you stop in a grocery or you stop in a convenience store and you grab, um, you know a muffin, right. Or uh, you know calorie dense hot dog or something. So, building in flexibility, compliments, having the backup, uh, contingency plans.

Philip Pape: 10:58

And then, because you have all this flexibility built in, you always want to assess uh, is it working for you? Is one of these things not actually solving the problem and mitigating the risk? Let's say you are invited to a happy hour and you go and all of a sudden, the same thing happens, as always happens. You have the nachos, you have the three margaritas and you overconsume and before you know it, you've gone way past your calories for the week, despite having your risk management plan. Well, that plan obviously wasn't effective, so you just have to come up with a different one that's actually going to work. So that doesn't rely on you having too much discipline or willpower to do it.

Philip Pape: 11:42

And that iterative process is part of the flexibility of risk management and is key to, again, sustainability. And then, underlying all of this is, again, we are not trying to be perfect, we're not trying to have a perfect plan, nor are we trying to execute perfectly. We're trying to just make progress from day to day. Look at every challenge that trips us up as a lesson to adjust our plan rather than a reason to quit and we'll be fine. And so the power of this approach isn't just helping you stick to your plan. It's in transforming the approach, in the relationship and thinking like a risk manager, not seeing setbacks as failures, but really data points, opportunities to learn, to adapt, to improve the system.

Philip Pape: 12:25

Right, that vacation that used to derail your diet for weeks because, well, you know, I ate whatever I wanted on vacation and I can't get back to it now. I'm off track. I might as well just enjoy myself for a while. Now that is a chance to practice the flexible strategies, the flexible eating and nutrition strategies. That busy work period that would have meant skipping the gym. Now it's an opportunity to test out either the home workouts or the flexibility you built into your training days. And that is now taking the power back into you, an internal locus of control. You're not trapped now by some external rigid rule, some unrealistic expectation. You actually have power to navigate the unpredictable nature of life which is the default and make progress, and that is the key to sustainable long-term success.

Philip Pape: 13:18

So if we were to just recap this episode number one, a perfect plan will fail because it can't adapt to life. There's no such thing. Number two risk management principles are a way to create a flexible, resilient strategy, both contingency plans and building in flexibility, which then number three, allows you to make consistent progress even when life gets chaotic, and not just quote unquote, stick to your plan, which now is really a wide range of flexible options, but changing your approach to it in the first place, which will serve you well forever. So your goal is not to create a plan that worked perfectly in ideal conditions, because that doesn't exist. It's to create a system that keeps you moving forward no matter what life throws your way, and that's really it when it comes to risk management.

Philip Pape: 14:06

So if you found value in today's episode and you want to learn more about creating a flexible, sustainable approach to nutrition, I do have a guide that I think you're going to enjoy, called the Nutrition 101 Guide, and it's geared toward body composition with this flexible approach. Just go to witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in my show notes. Again, witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in my show notes and I'll send you the guide for free. It'll help you master that flexible dieting.

Philip Pape: 14:34

Whatever your goal fat loss, muscle building, improved health. It covers everything from calculating your ideal macros to optimizing your nutrition for your workouts, and it's a really good companion to today's episode, because today was a little bit more high level about the risk management in general, but then this helps you dig one level deeper with some practical tools for this resilient, adaptable strategy. Again, go to witsandweightscom, slash free or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember, in fitness and life it's not about avoiding obstacles, it's just being prepared to overcome them. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Metabolic Inflexibility After Extreme Dieting on 'The Biggest Loser' | Ep 233

Have you ever wondered why crash diets seem to backfire, leaving you worse off than before? Do crash diets seem to set you up for failure instead of long-term success? What if there’s a smarter, healthier way to achieve sustainable fat loss?

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the truth behind metabolic adaptation and the science of extreme weight loss, as seen on The Biggest Loser. Discover why crash diets cause more harm than good, leading to muscle loss, hormonal imbalances, and a slowed metabolism that makes fat loss even harder. More importantly, Philip shares a sustainable approach to fat loss that prioritizes health and performance without punishing your body.

🔁 Share this episode on social media and tag @witsandweights on Instagram, Threads, or Twitter/X.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:05 The Biggest Loser effect explained
3:24 The science behind metabolic adaptation
6:22 Hormonal imbalances and disordered eating
7:18 The truth about metabolic flexibility
12:00 Sustainable fat loss: A smarter approach
20:20 Building sustainable habits
22:40 Working with your body, not against it
27:58 Outro

Episode resources:

• 7 Surprising BMR Facts (Your Metabolism Isn't Broken)

Metabolic “Damange” After Extreme Weight Loss? Lessons from 'The Biggest Loser'

Are crash diets wrecking your metabolism? If you've ever lost weight rapidly only to gain it all back (and then some), you're not alone. Let's dive into the long-term consequences of extreme weight loss methods like those used on 'The Biggest Loser' and uncover why sustainable fat loss is crucial for your metabolic health.

The Biggest Loser Effect: What Research Reveals

A groundbreaking 2016 study by Dr. Kevin Hall followed up with contestants from Season 8 of 'The Biggest Loser'. The findings were eye-opening and challenged many assumptions about rapid weight loss:

• Contestants were burning about 500 fewer calories per day at rest, even six years after the show

• This metabolic slowdown persisted even in those who managed to keep some weight off

• Significant muscle loss contributed to lowered metabolic rates

• Hormonal imbalances led to increased hunger and decreased feelings of fullness

These results paint a clear picture: extreme dieting doesn't just lead to weight regain – it can have lasting effects on your metabolism.

Understanding Metabolic Adaptation

Rapid weight loss triggers a process called metabolic adaptation – your body's survival response to what it perceives as starvation. This includes:

1. Decreased resting metabolic rate: Your body becomes super efficient, burning fewer calories at rest

2. Increased efficiency in movement: You burn fewer calories for the same activities

3. Hormonal changes: Disruptions in leptin (fullness hormone) and ghrelin (hunger hormone) levels

It's important to note that some degree of metabolic adaptation is normal with any weight loss. What was surprising about 'The Biggest Loser' contestants was the extreme degree and persistence of these adaptations.

Debunking "Metabolic Damage" and "Inflexibility"

You might have heard terms like "metabolic damage" or "metabolic inflexibility" thrown around in fitness circles. While these concepts point to real phenomena, they're not entirely accurate from a scientific standpoint.

Your metabolism isn't permanently "broken" after extreme dieting. However, it does become highly efficient at storing energy and resistant to further weight loss. This is your body fighting to defend its highest weight – a survival mechanism that can work against your fat loss goals.

The idea of "metabolic inflexibility" – the supposed inability to switch efficiently between burning carbs and fats – is still being researched. While it's an intriguing concept, its role in weight management may be overstated.

The Hidden Costs of Crash Dieting

Beyond the metabolic impacts, extreme dieting often comes with other hidden costs:

• Muscle loss: Rapid weight loss often results in losing muscle along with fat, further lowering your metabolic rate

• Psychological toll: Many contestants developed disordered eating patterns and a warped relationship with food and exercise

• Nutrient deficiencies: Severely restrictive diets can lead to inadequate intake of essential nutrients

• Reduced performance: Extreme calorie deficits can tank your energy levels and gym performance

Sustainable Fat Loss Strategies

To avoid the pitfalls of extreme dieting and achieve lasting results, consider these strategies:

• Focus on gradual fat loss: Aim for 0.5-1% of body weight per week

• Prioritize muscle retention: Incorporate regular strength training and maintain adequate protein intake

• Implement a flexible approach to nutrition: No foods should be off-limits; focus on balance and moderation

• Emphasize overall health markers: Don't fixate solely on the scale; consider energy levels, sleep quality, and gym performance

• Be patient and consistent: Sustainable change takes time; focus on building lifelong habits

• Monitor and adjust: Pay attention to how your body responds and be willing to make changes as needed

The Power of Working With Your Body

The biggest lesson we can learn from 'The Biggest Loser' study isn't that weight loss is impossible. It's that extreme, rapid weight loss often backfires. Instead of viewing your body as something to be hacked or tricked into rapid transformation, see it as a complex, adaptive system that responds best to gradual, consistent change.

Every balanced meal, every workout, every good night's sleep is an investment in your overall health and metabolism. This approach might not give you dramatic before and after photos in 12 weeks, but it will give you sustainable results and a healthier relationship with food and fitness.

Key Takeaways

• Extreme dieting can lead to significant metabolic adaptation, making future weight loss more challenging

• While these adaptations are real, they're not permanent "damage" to your metabolism

• A balanced, patient approach leads to more sustainable fat loss and better long-term metabolic health

• Focus on overall health, not just weight loss, for lasting results

Remember, your body is incredibly adaptive. With the right approach – one that prioritizes gradual, sustainable changes – you can achieve your fitness goals without sacrificing your metabolic health. It's time to work with your body, not against it, for lasting transformation.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever heard about metabolic damage or metabolic inflexibility after crash diets, this episode is for you, because we are diving into the long-term consequences of extreme weight loss methods like those used on the Biggest Loser. You'll discover what really happens to your body and metabolism when you lose weight rapidly and why contestants struggle to keep the weight off years later. More importantly, you'll learn why the concept of metabolic inflexibility might not tell the whole story and what current research actually says about sustainable fat loss. If you think you need to lose weight, whether 10 pounds or 100 pounds, understanding the real impact of extreme dieting is crucial for achieving lasting results without compromising your health. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're venturing into the dark side of extreme weight loss methods the long-term effect of shows like the Biggest Loser. Imagine losing a ton of weight through an intense diet and exercise program, only to find yourself years later not only regaining the weight, but struggling to lose fat no matter what you do. And this is not a hypothetical scenario. It's the reality faced by many contestants from the Biggest Loser, and it's a cautionary tale for anyone considering extreme measures for rapid weight loss. Today, we're going to break down the science behind what really happens with extreme dieting, explore the complex relationship between rapid weight loss and metabolic changes and, most importantly, discuss a more balanced approach to sustainable fat loss. If you enjoy this episode, if you've been following the show for any length of time and you enjoy it, just do me a quick favor and share it on social media. You can just take a screenshot and share it to your story or some apps like Spotify. Let you share directly to Instagram and then tag me at Wits and Weights.

Philip Pape: 2:05

All right, let's get into today's topic, because I want to break this down into a few segments. The first is what I'm going to call the biggest loser effect, what the research actually shows from this great example of the most extreme form of weight loss that we have. The second segment is we're going to unpack the concept of not only metabolic damage, which I think if you listen to this show at all, you know it's not a real thing but there is something called metabolic inflexibility, the idea that you shift from fat to carb burning and back and forth, and now, all of a sudden, after an extreme diet, you can't do that as effectively. And then the third segment is going to be well, what is a balanced approach? What is the alternative when it comes to not just weight loss, but what we talk about here, which is fat loss losing fat, getting leaner, getting healthier, getting the physique and body composition you want, not necessarily a lower number on the scale. So let's start with the biggest loser effect. Back in 2016, so that's eight years ago as of the time of this episode. In 2016, so that's eight years ago as of the time of this episode Dr Kevin Hall and his team published a study that followed up with 14 of the contestants from season eight of the Biggest Loser, and their findings opened a lot of eyes. They challenged many of the assumptions people had about weight loss, and I think our space does well to refer to it and learn from that. And I think our space does well to refer to it and learn from that.

Philip Pape: 3:27

Six years after the show, the contestants were still dealing with the significant slowdown that they had experienced in their metabolism. Now you might think already, okay, well, that sounds like metabolic damage to me, but just hear the whole context. So, on average, they were burning about 500 fewer calories per day at rest compared to what you would expect for someone their size. And then this effect continued. It persisted even in contestants who had managed to keep some of that weight off. So even when they continued to do what they needed to do to try to maintain their weight, it was at a much lower metabolic rate. Here's a very crucial point. This metabolic slowdown wasn't just because they lost weight. It was more extreme than what we would typically expect from weight loss alone, and the researchers called this metabolic adaptation a term that we now use all the time essentially the body fighting against weight loss right, you might have heard the term survival by becoming super efficient with its calories Just very, very efficient. Not something we want to be when we're trying to lose some of that stored energy.

Philip Pape: 4:36

Now, the contestants. Here's the other important thing that's super important for us. The contestants didn't just lose fat, they lost a substantial amount of muscle mass as well. Now, this is important, because muscle we talk about, why it helps burn more calories, because it is metabolically active. It burns calories even when you're just sitting around, and I think there's more effects than just that, like the fact that the process of building muscle itself requires more energy. Being athletic requires, you know, bigger organs. A lot of the things I talked about recently on my 7 BMR facts episode go check that out. I'll link that in the show notes. But losing a ton of muscle along with the fat. The contestants essentially downsized the engine of their body, right, it's just a smaller engine.

Philip Pape: 5:25

The study also found major hormonal imbalances, for example leptin, that's the hormone that signals fullness. It dropped, you know, it plummeted At. Ghrelin, the hunger hormone, increased significantly, right? These are extreme versions of what we would see in a dieting phase, and the combination of the two left contestants then constantly ravenously hungry, even when they'd eaten enough. You know, quote unquote enough. And then there's the psychological toll, which we cannot understate here. It was immense because many of the people on the show developed disordered eating patterns, swinging between restrictive dieting and binge eating, the classic yo-yo cycle on steroids to the extreme. Their relationship with food and exercise became warped. They started to view workouts as punishment for eating and food as the enemy. And if you can relate to this, it's important to understand the psychological impacts of extreme dieting.

Philip Pape: 6:26

So now let's talk about the idea of metabolic inflexibility and you might have heard this term maybe you haven't. You've probably heard of metabolic damage and there's other terms for that in the fitness industry, and it's often used to explain why people struggle to lose weight or to keep it off after extreme dieting and why so many people say well, you just have to eat more, you just have to reverse diet. But what does the science actually say, and I think it's good to revisit this topic. Metabolic flexibility specifically refers to the body's ability to switch between using carbs and fats for fuel efficiently. Now, in theory, someone who is metabolically flexible can easily burn fat when in a calorie deficit and they efficiently use carbs when they eat them. And the idea goes that extreme dieting might impair this flexibility, making it harder to lose fat in the future. However, skepticism antennae should always be up here. It's important to note that, while metabolic flexibility is a, it's important to note that, while metabolic flexibility is a real physiological concept, I think its role in managing weight and fat loss and body composition and all of that is still being researched and debated. In other words, it may not apply right.

Philip Pape: 7:37

Here's what we know. First, metabolic flexibility does change with obesity and with weight loss, but the relationship is very complex. There are lots and lots of variables going on here and we can't always tease out the cause and effect. Number two this impaired metabolic flexibility has been observed in people with obesity and with type 2 diabetes. But again, it's not clear if this is a cause or it's just an effect of the conditions. Kind of like we say, well, people who are overweight drink Diet Coke, so Diet Coke must be making them overweight, but in fact they're overweight so they're trying to lose weight and therefore more people who have weight to lose drink Diet Coke.

Philip Pape: 8:15

Number three the direct link between metabolic flexibility and how easy it is to lose weight or to maintain your weight again, is not straightforward as it's often portrayed in, you know, the fitness industry. Some researchers argue that the importance of it in weight management may be overstated. So researchers themselves are saying this in the studies. So yeah, it's a pretty cool concept, an intriguing concept, to the point where I've thought of dedicating an episode just to the concept. But I think it's something we don't want to put too much thought into because it's not something we can control, nor is possibly relevant to what we're doing. Anyway. It's probably not the whole story when it comes to why the contestants from the Biggest Loser struggle to maintain their weight loss, and the reality is, this is physiology, this is biology, more complex.

Philip Pape: 9:06

What we do know more conclusively is that rapid, extreme weight loss can and does lead to significant metabolic adaptation. And I always advise if you're going to lose fat, we're going to do it at a conservative rate of loss so we don't experience so much adaptation, so much hunger, so much reduction in our hormone production, and also so that we are not suffering through the process psychologically. All those reasons Plus. And so we don't lose muscle. So we don't lose muscle. All of the reasons. There's no reason to crash diet, basically. And it's not about the flexibility of our metabolism, it's really just your body's becoming super efficient with calories and it's fighting to regain the lost weight all throughout that process, especially the more extreme you go. So just to revisit why this happens, why does metabolic adaptation occur?

Philip Pape: 9:59

Well, first, you have a decreased resting metabolic rate. Your RMR or your BMR pretty similar concepts have dropped for multiple reasons. One being you weigh less. Another being you're eating less. You may have a tiny bit of muscle loss, things like that. Number two is, you tend to become more efficient when you move, when you're in fat loss, and often it's unconscious. Not only do you potentially move less, you also become more efficient in movement, and this all the way goes down to this. This goes all the way down to the cellular level, practically like cells become more efficient. I'm not saying that cells movement becomes efficient, but the efficiency is systemic. Is what I'm saying? Also, hormonal changes that increase hunger and decrease fullness right, the same hormones we talked about leptin, ghrelin occur and they get ramped up because your body's saying feed me, feed me now, feed me now. A lot you know, the more you go into that diet. I think I mentioned on a recent episode how we see how, for example, thyroid production drops like five or six percent immediately in a diet and then it comes right back up at the end. But keep in mind that the biggest loser contestants went through a much more extreme change and so it took a lot longer for that to recover.

Philip Pape: 11:13

And yeah, we need to understand that these adaptations exist and, yes, they make weight loss and fat loss and maintaining our weight more challenging. They don't. This is important. They don't represent permanent damage to your metabolism period. With time, with proper nutrition meaning you're not continuing to diet these adaptations can be reversed and I'm going to say they'll be reversed. Can they be reversed all the way? Well, that's the question. If you have so much adaptation and your body has changed so much because you've lost a ton of weight and muscle, can you reverse it all the way? Well, possibly not, until you get your body back to the state it was, which itself might be an uphill climb. If you've lost a bunch of muscle, for example, now you have to spend several years training to get that muscle back. It's not just about the calories, if that makes sense Now.

Philip Pape: 12:05

There are multiple reasons for this adaptation, and it isn't just the dieting itself, but what the dieting has caused that you need to now also reverse. So what does this mean for sustainable fat loss? You're like, okay, doom and gloom. Let's talk about how to approach this. This is the bread and butter, what I love about a flexible, balanced, sustainable approach that you can actually stick with and enjoy and go out with your friends and go out with your family and eat, go on vacation and eat out at a restaurant.

Philip Pape: 12:39

Okay, the big takeaway, I think, from the Biggest Losers study is not that weight loss is impossible or that dieting always fails and if you know me, you know, I don't even care about weight loss. I care about body composition and fat loss, even though to induce that sometimes also requires dropping some weight in the form of fat. It is that extreme rapid weight loss crash dieting that is going to backfire. I was going to say it often backfires pretty much always backfires in some way. Even if you do it in a quote-unquote, controlled way, like if you go on keto and you cut carbs and you all of a sudden use 40 pounds in a month, there are still going to be consequences for that. So instead, why don't we focus on gradual, sustainable changes that work with our biology? Once you know all of this, you realize that our biology is complex, but there's a way to work with it. Be friendly to our bodies.

Philip Pape: 13:22

Here's the philosophy that I advocate. Number one I want you to focus on health, not just weight. I want you to focus on health Okay, health Instead of obsessing over the scale. Prioritize health, and I don't often say it that way. Sometimes I say body composition, but really what I'm getting at is are you giving yourself the energy you need to be able to train and perform the sleep quality and quantity you need?

Philip Pape: 13:47

You know the performance in the gym itself.

Philip Pape: 13:49

You're training hard, you're going after it to be a healthy, fit person, getting strong and building muscle, and then the nutrition supports that, and if at some point you go through a fat loss phase, that's fine.

Philip Pape: 14:00

But by having to focus on health first, mentally and physically, all the rest becomes that much more well aligned and natural and easy to go after. I can't tell you how many clients I've had who they might start off in a fat loss phase after we do the pre-diet maintenance phase for anywhere from four to six weeks, I'll say and they might go into a fat loss phase and realize you know what I don't necessarily like the cost of fat loss, the trade-offs that I have to make of, you know, eating less and having a little bit less energy, a little bit less performance and and kind of a slowdown in my progress in the gym. I'd rather actually be going all out right now for performance. That's not everybody. Some people are like, yep, I'm willing to make the trade-offs right now. So just so I can lean out a bit. But it all comes down to how do you feel, how do you perform, how's your health, and then we let the other things fall along with that.

Jenny: 14:50

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for the 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment he offers for free. During that session I found he asked really good personal questions that helped him be able to give me excellent advice and tangible tools which I've applied, and since then I have lost 12 pounds where I was otherwise stuck. Now that I'm closer to my weight goals, I'm focusing more on my fitness and muscle and strength. So I just really want to say thanks, philip, for all of your encouragement and the free tools you offer, as well as the positive podcast message. It's really helped me.

Philip Pape: 15:33

The second thing is gradual fat loss. So if you are going to go into fat loss, aiming for that slow, steady progress of around a half 0.75% of your body weight per week is a usually pretty solid place to be. For a lot of people that's around a pound a week, right, I'm just giving you rough numbers. We'd have to personalize it for you specifically, depending on your metabolism, your goals, your timeframe, the calorie intake, so many things. But aiming for no more than 1% of your body weight per week, that is going to minimize the metabolic adaptation and the muscle loss, especially the muscle loss. You're still going to have metabolic adaptation, but it's going to be a lot less. It's proportional to the quickness, the rapidity of the diet. Now, just real caveat here. A little caveat Because it's proportional. Just understand that you are getting something for it. I want to be clear on that. So if you decide to step on the gas and go at 1% body weight per week and then the metabolic adaptation therefore kicks up to its maximum within that range, the benefit is you're getting 1% body fat loss per week. So it's faster and you know larger magnitude and for some people that's what they want and they're willing to make that trade off. So it's just, it's all. Let's be objective about it, right? It's not a right or wrong. It's just if you do this, you get this. If you're okay with more metabolic adaptation, you do this.

Philip Pape: 16:56

Now the muscle loss piece. I have a problem with that that we have to be careful of. If you go too fast, you're going to lose muscle and again, there's always exceptions. I have plenty of clients that have a good base of strength and muscle. They have a high calorie base to work with, so they can intake a lot of carbs that are anabolic or anti-catabolic. When they're losing, they can take both protein and even when they're on a diet, whereas other people with a much lower metabolism, the carbs come down pretty low and that starts to eat into their ability to hold onto that muscle other than the protein. So what I'm saying is you can go past 1% in some cases, very personalized, okay.

Philip Pape: 17:33

Number three we do want to emphasize body composition over weight. So if we're going to still be looking at fat loss and using the number on the scale as one of many measures, we still want to prioritize maintaining or, for some of you, a tiny bit of gain of muscle mass while losing the body weight, because that means you're losing fat. It also maintains that metabolic rate, it mitigates some of these other problems and then along the way, throughout this whole process, we want to create sustainable habits, because it's not about dieting as a switch, as an on-off switch. It's really about your identity, your routines, your systems around nutrition, around training and stress management, sleep and so on that can carry with you for the rest of your life, regardless of these short-term cycles of building or losing fat. You know, building muscle or losing fat, and so with that comes some patience and some consistency.

Philip Pape: 18:32

But I think we give that lip service too much where it's like got to be patient, got to be consistent. Let's look at it this way If you try to crash diet and you're not patient, in that context it's all going to come back. You're going to lose muscle, you're going to feel terrible, it's going to take longer to recover and, guess what, you're actually further back than when you started. So even if you're impatient, like I kind of am, in a way that's actually the most frustrating long way to do it, inefficient, lengthy way to do it. So that's where you hear something like the long path is the fastest path, so to speak. It's like the planned out, consistency based approach is the one that's going to get you the fastest result at the end, ironically, or whatever term you want to use get you the fastest result at the end, ironically, or whatever term you want to use.

Philip Pape: 19:22

Okay, and then the food itself. This is oh. There's so many debates about what are the right diets and what should you cut out, and I I I need to be good or bad, I need to cut out alcohol, I need to cut out sugar and I need to cut out carbs. The best thing to cut out is this thinking and to instead add in the things that satisfy you and that you need and that you're not going to be guilty eating, and that is lots of protein, lots of fiber and, yes, some carbs. That all support your goals, make you feel great, allow you to perform, allow you to train, and it's very flexible. Resistance training, of course, is super important throughout this whole thing. The biggest loser contestants a lot of them were going all out on cardio and it wasn't about muscle mass at all, and that's a huge problem. So, just being a person who lifts weights regularly and uses progressive overload and lifts in, you know the strength regime, for part of that, using compound lifts is going to have a massive base to build on and maintain metabolic health, whatever phase they're in, including fat loss.

Philip Pape: 20:21

And then recovery goes hand in hand with that right Getting enough sleep, getting enough stress for supporting your hormones and supporting your cravings and supporting the fat loss as well. And then when you're doing fat loss, you know having diet breaks built in can be helpful for some people. Some people don't need them, they just go all out. You know, for eight, 12, 16 weeks, go all out for a fat loss phase and then you're done. Others want to have breaks in there. You know weekend breaks or week-long breaks, breaks aligned with their lifestyle, like business travel, right, or just a weekend where you plan to go out to a restaurant or go to your you know grandmother's house for Thanksgiving, whatever it might be. It can give you a little mental reset. It's not too much of a physical reset, let's be honest. I should probably do a whole episode about that.

Philip Pape: 21:11

Refeeds and diet breaks Again, because people give too much emphasis on recovery physical, physiological recovery from diet breaks. Not so much, really, really not so much. We don't see meaningful recovery until you're out of a diet for some time, at least for several weeks in a row. But there are huge psychological benefits from short-term recovery and there also is a perceived level of recovery just from all the extra calories you're able to eat when you go back to maintenance, even if it's just for a day or two. And throughout all of this, of course, you're going to be monitoring, adjusting, paying attention to how your body responds, and know that what works for you or someone else might not be working for you, because the goal is health and quality of life, which is going to be very personalized itself. Right.

Philip Pape: 21:56

I spoke to someone today who is a cyclist. He's getting ready for a hundred mile mountain biking race and he's in his sixties. He wants to be strong, he wants to be healthy. He doesn't even care about aesthetics. Now, you might care about aesthetics and, honestly, if you focus on health, aesthetics will take care of themselves. But you know for him he has a specific goal that he's going after. That's very personalized and so health and quality of life for him might be different than for someone else.

Philip Pape: 22:23

You know I had surgery last year on my shoulder, so health and quality of life for me was recovery, taking it at the right pace to get back and not re-injure myself, having the right nutrition supplementation to support that, okay, and this approach might again seem like, oh, that's more work, that's going to take longer, but it's actually the one that's going to stick and give you the lasting results, which means it's actually more efficient and even faster. So I want to leave you with something super powerful, because I know the context of this was the biggest loser and I think the biggest lesson from that show isn't really about metabolic damage or metabolic flexibility or inflexibility. I think it's about the importance of working with your body and not against it. Not punishing yourself, not doing something that feels like I mean, if anybody's aware of that show, it was like people screaming at them. It was this all out, balls to the wall, go above and beyond everyday extreme. That is not realistic for anybody to do this sustainably. We're not even talking about a competition or a race or something where, yeah, you do want to do a more extreme level of training than just a normal lifestyle training to get ready for that. But even then, it's in a controlled, conservative fashion to get you there with your health intact and with the right fuel and the right performance to go after it and just trying to lose a ton of weight is not going to be that. So, instead of viewing your body as something that has to be punished, has to be hacked, has to be tricked into rapid transformation, see it as an adaptive system that responds best to love, to gradual, consistent change. Every meal that you're balancing out with protein and fiber, every training session that you give it, that what we call acute or hormetic stress, that good stress that your body feels great but it also is going to have lasting effects by building muscle, every good night's sleep you know that you wake up feeling refreshed. Those are all investments that really pay off. Those are investments in your health, right? Not punishing yourself on a treadmill, getting sweaty, getting sore, feeling like you're going to die, feeling like you're going to just keel over and thinking that that is somehow a good sign, that is somehow associated with good health. Cause, it's not. It's not If you're punishing yourself.

Philip Pape: 24:45

If you think of your language around the gym, if it's like, oh, that was brutal, oh, that crushed me, and it's not done out of just like jest. Like you know, if I do a heavy back squat, I'm like grinding through it, I'm like, oh, that was brutal. That's different, I mean, in my opinion, because it's more about the language. That's different than something that just makes you want to puke and collapse afterward and then you can't walk up the stairs for three days and then guess what. It's really not going to give you a result anyway that you're going for. There's a difference. If you go on the biggest loser, are you going to have a dramatic before and after? Absolutely Right, is that really what you want when you then lose it? So the biggest losers lost a lot more than that, didn't they? They lost their ability to sustain that, and it actually crushes your confidence, because then it sets you up for thinking the only way I can get to something that I'm going for with aesthetics or weight or whatever, is to do this crazy extreme thing. And then you dread that thing or you just won't do it. You're like, well, I'll do that next week or I'll do that next month, and then you don't do it because it's not the right thing to do for you, right, it's not the right thing to do.

Philip Pape: 25:49

You want a peaceful relationship with food. Food is something you eat multiple times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, don't? We want to enjoy that relationship. It doesn't mean you have to, you know, indulge and just love every single bite and mindfully eat 100% of the time, or anything like that. It also doesn't mean that everything that goes in your body has to be just of the perfect health, so to speak, right. Give yourself some flexibility.

Philip Pape: 26:12

Training is kind of the same thing. It's like life is going to happen. You might have to shift your training day around, you might have to swap out some exercises. Just show up and go to the gym, get it done right, and in the long run, that's going to matter for who you are and then what you are, what you're able to do and, yes, even what you look like. So imagine being able to lose fat when you want to maintain your weight wherever you want to maintain it, and then actually enjoy the process. That's what we're going for here. Okay, and it's achievable For anyone who's willing to play that long game. It's achievable and I want you to reach out. If you want to understand how right Reach out, send me a text message using the link in the show notes. Hit me up on Instagram at Wits and Weights.

Philip Pape: 26:55

I want to recap, just to kind of reiterate the importance of this episode and what we learned from the Biggest Loser, because that extreme dieting, that rapid weight loss that leads to significant metabolic adaptation, that results in weight regain but, worse than that, it results in your overall metabolism being lower than it was before because now you've lost a bunch of muscle. The concept of metabolic inflexibility it's very intriguing Metabolic damage and flexibility but in reality, a lot of this is effect and cause, not cause and effect. Having a balanced approach that prioritizes health and then the consistency and patience to get there is really what's going to pay off. All right, before we wrap up, if you found value in today's episode, I really appreciate it. I'm so grateful if you would just share it on your social media. That's all I'm asking for.

Philip Pape: 27:40

Tell people about it.

Philip Pape: 27:41

Take a photo of you listening you know, hey, look at me or a screenshot of the episode and just post it. Post it to wherever Instagram X threads. Tag me at what's in weights and let your friends know what you learned and why you found the information helpful. That's really all I'm asking for. If you found this helpful, if you're like, hey, this guy talked about what really is happening when we diet, I think you find it pretty cool because he talks about, you know, losing fat instead of losing muscle, or he talks about a better approach that you could actually enjoy, and you don't have to feel guilty and like you're punishing yourself.

Philip Pape: 28:14

Just share it with people. I also love to see who's listening, so when you share it on social, I'll be able to see who's commenting, who's listening and then hearing how you describe the show to people. So don't be shy. Don't be shy. Share away. Let's spread the word about smart, efficient, sustainable strategies based on the evidence. Okay, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting some weights, and remember your body is incredibly adaptive. With the right approach and with the love it deserves, you can achieve your goals without anything extreme, without extreme diet and extreme measures. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Microscopic Muscle Growth for Huge Gains (Justin Cottle) | Ep 232

Have your muscle gains stalled? Do you struggle to build muscle as fast as others despite your best efforts in the gym?

Philip (@witsandweights) connects with anatomy expert Justin Cottle to dive deep into the cellular world of muscle hypertrophy. You'll learn why some people build muscle faster, what happens inside your muscles as they adapt to strength training, and how understanding these processes can unlock your muscle-building potential. If you want to go beyond the surface level and truly understand how to build muscle efficiently, this is for you.

Justin Cottle, a former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy, returns to the show to break down the science of muscle fibers, the role of protein synthesis, and how our genetics influence muscle growth.

🔔 Make sure to hit “follow” to be notified of more episodes like these!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:02 Cellular differences between hypertrophied and untrained muscle
3:37 Breaking down muscle fibers and tissue layers
7:15 Fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle fibers
10:03 The role of protein and amino acids in muscle growth
15:30 The connection between carbs and glycogen storage
20:22 The three types of muscle tissues
24:18 Eccentric vs. concentric contractions and training
28:48 Training variation and breaking through plateaus
32:44 Genetic variability in muscle fiber composition
36:43 Mechanisms beyond individual fiber growth (e.g., hyperplasia)
39:09 The importance of rest and recovery for hypertrophy
45:30 Role of muscle damage in hypertrophy
49:34 Practical strategies and training methods for lifters
52:21 Advancements in muscle growth science
55:50 Where to find Justin
56:24 Outro

Episode resources:

• Youtube: @thedissectionroom 

• Substack: @thedissectionroom 

• Instagram: @realjustincottle

• Learn anatomy faster: kenhub.com

Related episode:

• How Anatomy Impacts Your Gut, Muscle Mass, Hormones, and Health with Justin Cottle | Ep 177

Episode summary:

In the latest episode of the Wits & Weights podcast, host Philip Pape sits down with Justin Cottle, a former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy, to delve into the fascinating world of muscle hypertrophy. This episode promises to enlighten listeners on the microscopic wonders of muscle growth, exploring how cellular and genetic factors can significantly influence an individual's ability to build muscle mass.

The conversation kicks off with a deep dive into the microscopic processes that underpin hypertrophy. Justin Cottle brings his expertise to the table, highlighting the importance of understanding the subcellular changes that occur with regular strength training. Muscle hypertrophy, the increase in muscle size, is influenced by factors such as the increase in sarcoplasm and the presence of more nuclei within muscle cells. These indicators are crucial for enhancing training effectiveness and maximizing gains.

Listeners are then taken on a journey through the intricate anatomy of muscle fibers. The episode sheds light on the various layers of skeletal muscles and the roles of connective tissues like endomycium and epimycium. These structures organize muscle fibers into functional units, while organelles like myofibrils and mitochondria play pivotal roles in muscle contraction and energy storage. Understanding these elements is key for anyone looking to optimize their workout regimen and tailor it to their unique physiology.

The episode doesn't shy away from tackling controversial topics, such as the role of carbohydrates in muscle function. Contrary to modern dietary trends that demonize carbs, Justin Cottle emphasizes their importance as a primary energy source for muscle contraction and brain function. Carbohydrates, stored as glycogen, are vital for supporting both slow and fast-twitch muscle fibers. The discussion highlights how a balanced intake of carbs is essential for fueling intense workouts and ensuring optimal performance.

A fascinating segment of the episode is dedicated to exploring the relationship between muscle growth and metabolic processes. The hosts discuss how different muscle types, including skeletal, cardiac, and smooth muscles, contribute to overall metabolism. They examine recent findings that suggest athletes may have a higher basal metabolic rate due to increased organ size, a hypothesis that underscores the complex interplay between muscle growth and organ function.

Genetic variability also takes center stage in this episode. The hosts explore how subtle changes in training can influence the central nervous system, leading to improved performance. They discuss the genetic factors that affect muscle fiber composition and hypertrophy potential, acknowledging that some individuals are naturally predisposed to excel in specific physical activities due to their genetic makeup.

Rest and recovery are highlighted as crucial components of any fitness regimen. The episode delves into the science of rest, emphasizing its role in muscle repair and growth. Adequate rest periods between workouts and proper sleep are essential for replenishing glycogen stores and allowing for muscle repair. The conversation underscores the significance of integrating proper nutrition, particularly carbohydrates, into recovery routines to enhance athletic outcomes.

Looking to the future, the episode explores the exciting potential of personalized supplementation and AI in health and wellness. Justin Cottle shares his insights on how advanced technologies could revolutionize personalized medicine, offering tailored solutions based on an individual's genetic profile. This forward-thinking discussion promises a future where bioavailability and targeted treatments enhance natural bodily processes, paving the way for groundbreaking advancements in health and fitness.

Overall, this episode is a treasure trove of insights for athletes, fitness enthusiasts, and anyone curious about the marvels of human anatomy. With expert guidance from Justin Cottle, listeners are equipped with practical advice and scientific knowledge to unlock their muscle-building potential and enhance their performance. Whether you're looking to optimize your workout routine, understand the role of genetics in muscle growth, or explore the future of personalized health solutions, this episode is a must-listen for anyone committed to achieving their fitness goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

What exactly causes muscles to grow. If your muscle gains have stalled or you want to get more out of your lifting, you might be missing a piece of the puzzle that even most trainers don't know about. Today, we are shrinking down into the microscopic world of muscle growth with an expert on human anatomy who's seen firsthand what really happens when your muscles adapt to training. You'll discover the intricate cellular dance that occurs with every rep and your recovery, why some people seem to pack on muscle effortlessly while others struggle, and how understanding these hidden processes can inform your training approach. If you're serious about strength training and muscle growth, this episode will show you how to unlock your muscle building potential by understanding what happens at the microscopic level. By understanding what happens at the microscopic level, welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:56

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're peering through the microscope at the fascinating world of muscle hypertrophy with Justin Cottle, who is back on the show to dig a little deeper for those of us who are serious about lifting weights and building muscle. Justin is a former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy. He's a pioneer in using real human cadavers to educate the public about the human body Very unique angle, especially when we talk about lifting and hypertrophy. He's also the creator behind the Dissection Room, a YouTube channel and Substack newsletter devoted to dissecting life, creativity and what it means to be human. Today you'll learn about muscle growth down to the cellular level, including types of muscle fibers, how they respond to training stimuli, what actually happens inside your muscle cells when you use them, and how understanding those subcellular stress and adaptation cycles can inform your training. What can we actually do about it and why? Some people seem to respond differently, based on their genetics, and some people may require a little more effort. So, justin, it's awesome to have you back on the show, my man.

Justin Cottle: 2:00

Thanks, philip, it's great to be back.

Philip Pape: 2:02

And so we're going to learn something new today. We're definitely going to learn something new. I presume that you've spent countless hours in the lab or maybe looking at muscle tissue under a microscope at some point at that level, or at least know a lot about it, and I guess what I first want to understand is what do you actually see when you look at the cross-section of muscle between someone that's been lifting and has gone through hypertrophy for a decent part of their life and someone who hasn't, maybe somebody who's been sedentary? Do we have that, something like that?

Justin Cottle: 2:32

Yeah, yeah. So what you'll see is basically just more space, I mean cells. For anyone who's ever seen like a micrograph or say like a slide that you'd look through a microscope, it oftentimes just looks transparent. So I mean, there's not like this sexy answer of like oh, you can see all these proteins really like in this robust form. I mean, you can.

Justin Cottle: 2:51

You definitely can see when there are more, when there's more protein, but at the same time, a lot of times it just looks bigger, like. What you're seeing is almost like it's just the space which in a muscle cell we call the sarcoplasm. The sarcoplasm is actually just going to be larger, and so what you're just seeing is more of that. You're also going to see more nuclei, typically, just because, as a lot of people in the fitness realm will know, especially like, the more you get hypertrophic, then you're actually going to have more nuclei attached to the cell. So you'll also see that, but it's more about space than anything else. It's just an increase in space and then you will see some more protein as you're looking through it.

Philip Pape: 3:29

So it's kind of swollen jacked at that level already. So you could even just it's a microcosm of what we see expressed ultimately at the physical level or the macro level. Why don't we break that down a little more? Then, when we talk about muscle fibers you mentioned nuclei, maybe the types of muscle fibers when do we want to start this so people understand what the heck's in a muscle? Because we really oversimplify it sometimes. I think it'd be helpful to take that little journey.

Justin Cottle: 3:52

Yeah, by the way, if this gets to be just too much of the weeds, you can let me know, because we can talk on this for quite a bit of time. And I love that we're talking about it because I think every time I hear this conversation happening on the side, the anatomy and the micro anatomy are kind of touched on, but very briefly, which I totally understand, but I think it actually helps really like just justify specific training regimens and things of that nature. So if you actually took a skeletal muscle which, by the way, there's three different types of muscle you have skeletal, cardiac and smooth Cardiac is only found in the heart and then smooth muscle is basically like in your organs. So if you focus on skeletal muscle, if you took a cross section, like, let's say, like you cut mid brachium, so you're looking through the biceps, you're looking through the triceps, and then you like peeled apart the muscle fibers, you would actually see a whole variety of layers, right? So basically you have skeletal muscle cell or the muscle fiber, same thing and then what you do is you wrap that in connective tissue called endomycium. So if anyone's ever like in the literature and they see endomycium, that is the connective tissue that wraps individual muscle cells and then what you do is you put those into like a honeycomb structure that we call a fasciculus, and that honeycomb structure is just a bundle of muscle fibers and then so that's wrapped in connective tissue and then you bundle those together. So it's like you have all of these honeycomb structures all bundled together and you wrap that in another layer of connective tissue called epimycium, layer of connective tissue called epimycium, and you now have a muscle. So a muscle is actually bundles of bundles of muscle fibers. And then you even wrap groups of muscles together with fascia. So people have probably heard of fascia before, but that's just like the macro anatomy. That's what you'd see if you just cut your own arm or you were in the cadaver lab and you were looking at it. Cut your own arm or you were in the cadaver lab and you were looking at it.

Justin Cottle: 5:47

You could then go inside the muscle cell itself and this is where I think a lot of people it starts to get interesting, really exciting, although I will say the connective tissues do come into play in terms of, say, like stress and damage to the cell. So when you're working out you can damage those connective tissues, which is part of just the whole repair process and just getting stronger. But if you went into the muscle cell, that's where you're going to start seeing what are called organelles. So people have probably heard of organs. Organelles are tiny little structures that we all probably learned about in eighth grade biology, so like mitochondria, lysosomes, paroxysomes, but skeletal muscles have a very unique organelle called a myofibril.

Justin Cottle: 6:27

The myofibril is this really long tube essentially of protein, and that protein is what we all know and love in terms of like what we want, right, like the more protein, obviously, the stronger it's going to be. And what you do is you organize in these little contractile units called sarcomeres. So sarcomeres are basically like these membranes and protein bound areas that have a bunch of protein and they all just attach to one another and then they contract and get shorter. And so this is where people might be familiar with, like myosin, actin. These are the contractile proteins. So if you looked inside of the sarcomere, this is all microscopic so you can't see this with the naked eye. You have myosin attaching to actin and when it does that, it pushes on actin and that's what causes the contraction to occur. But you also have to understand that surrounding all of the myofibrils, all of the protein. That's where you get glycogen right, that's where you have all these different enzymes, that's where you get glycogen right, that's where you have all these different enzymes, that's where you put water, it's where you have mitochondria and this is where you start to see the subtle differences in muscle fiber type.

Justin Cottle: 7:31

So if you've ever heard of like slow twitch versus fast twitch, right, like basically the difference there is basically how much mitochondria does the cell have? How big are those mitochondria? If you have a lot of them and they're pretty big, you're looking at a slow twitch or a type one fiber. If you don't have a lot of mitochondria but the cell diameter, by the way, is bigger, in a type 2a or also you'll hear about type 2x, those are just fast twitch fibers. So basically it's like what you're looking for to determine is this cell a slow or versus fast twitch is mostly mitochondria and then the diameter of the cell, and so that's the kind of stuff you're really looking at, although there are hybrids which are kind of interesting. You have, like, some muscle cells are somewhat slow twitch, are somewhat fast twitch and they can change over time based on demand and training, which is obviously really interesting, for you know those in the fitness realm, so it's like and, by the way, slow and fast twitch, they get their name for exact reasons you probably suspect.

Justin Cottle: 8:33

It's just how fast does that do the proteins contract? And there's a whole variety of factors that go into that. And, by the way, like all that I've just said is touching the surface, there are countless other structures that are in and around the cell itself. But I mean, from a micro anatomy perspective, those are probably the need to knows right, like it's based on protein. It's based on how fast those proteins contract and the diameter of it and then around those proteins, how much glycogen, how much water, how much mitochondria is stuffed in there, and that's pretty much what determines if something is going to be you know that fiber is going to be growing strength wise, or if it's going to actually just be increasing in size, which would we would pretty much just call hypertrophy.

Philip Pape: 9:16

Okay, I'm drawn in, man, I could just let you keep going. Literally you could take over the podcast talking about this, because, yeah, if anybody's taking a biology class, they know it can get so complicated, and I'm sure you could do an entire semester on just skeletal muscle and actually that'd be fascinating for me, I think, but just at a high level. So so we recap what we're saying here is there's kind of multiple layers here. There's muscle cells, they're bundled into fibers, they're bundled together, there's bundles of bundles grouped with fascia and then down at the lowest level or one of the lowest levels within the cell, we have these organelles, especially myofibril, a tube of protein, and so that is correlated with strength and also contraction because of the myosin and actin, and then surrounding that is some glycogen and water.

Philip Pape: 10:01

I think I kind of got what you were saying. So it leads to some follow-up questions, because what I really want to connect is what do we do about this? Right, we can geek out on it all day, and I've got some interesting follow-ups here that I didn't expect to ask. So the first one is with the protein. People think about consuming protein, get that breaking down into amino acids, and then how does that get back to these proteins in the muscle, because it's not like it doesn't just travel there and then become muscle tissue. There's some synthesis going on. Can we just briefly?

Justin Cottle: 10:31

discuss that process? Yeah, absolutely. So this is where you start to hear. There's a lot of talk these days about the mTOR pathway if anyone's ever heard of like TORC1, torc2. This is a really fascinating pathway, not just even for, like muscles health, but I mean just cellular health. It's about protein synthesis. It's interesting just for longevity purposes. So you know, those in the longevity sphere are just really excited about mTOR. Mtor stands for what is it? I think it's mammalian target of rapamycin.

Justin Cottle: 11:00

The point here is when you digest proteins right, so digesting is literally just breaking apart the proteins. Most proteins your body can't absorb at the size they are. So you have all these enzymes that break the proteins down into amino acids, and so those amino acids are going to be the building blocks of protein. And there's no at least to my understanding, we still haven't found any kind of targeted type of protein. What I mean is eat this protein, these amino acids will build this muscle or reinforce this specific area. Instead, what happens is the amino acids are distributed throughout the body based on demand, and that demand is based on environmental influence. So obviously, if you are working out a muscle right, if it's under tension, you have all of this micro damage and micro tears. That's a signal that we need to reinforce it. And there are certain amino acids that are going to be better for protein synthesis. I mean I would imagine a lot of your audience is going to be familiar with, say, leucine for example. So you're talking like these are your, you know your branch chain amino acids. Those are going to be fantastic with the mTOR pathway to synthesize more protein.

Justin Cottle: 12:06

So basically what happens is these amino acids go into the myofibril and what they make is more myosin and actin. And the more myosin and actin you have in theory and I say in theory because it's there's a little bit of nuance to this but the stronger the muscle is going to be able to get. And basically strength you could actually say very specifically is how many actin or thin filament proteins are around the myosin protein. So in human beings, if I'm remembering correctly, I think it's six. So basically a myosin protein has two heads to it and then around it you have six different options for it to actually bind to. In human beings that number varies when you go in the animal kingdom and some creatures including insects, if I remember correctly have a wide variety or larger number of actin and thin filament, which means there's more options for the myosin to attach to, and it actually equates to more strength. That's why, like insects are just dramatically stronger for their body weight than you are right. You?

Philip Pape: 13:17

can't lift. Oh yeah, allometric scaling yeah yeah, we'll talk about that, right, sure.

Justin Cottle: 13:21

So the point, though, is that's what the amino acids do. So the amino acids are basically you can't make more skeletal muscle cell right. You're essentially born. There's always debate, but, generally speaking, you're born with as much skeletal muscle as you're ever going to have. What's changing is going to be the amount of nuclei on those cell and the protein inside of it, and that's what the amino acids go to, and those branched chain amino acids and everything it just protein synthesis, reinforces and builds myosin, actin, other proteins in there, like titan, nebulin. There's so many varying proteins inside of there that are all being just fueled and built together in response to environmental damage.

Philip Pape: 14:00

Cool. And if we man I can go off so many tangents If we took someone and just completely eliminated, say, leucine from their diet and got all the other amino acids, what would happen?

Justin Cottle: 14:11

That's a really good question. I'm not even sure I have a great answer for you, I would say.

Justin Cottle: 14:17

I mean, the thing is, the human body is extraordinarily adaptable. So you know, you have to just think about it in this really broad perspective, that basically and we might have even talked about this on our last episode, I forget that I like to think of humans as being more opportunivores, in the sense that we eat whatever we can eat whatever we can, and your body is ridiculously good at extracting nutrients from things that don't seem very nutritious, and so I wouldn't be surprised and I don't know off the top of my head, I'll be completely honest with you if we have ways of converting for leucine or other pathways that can adapt, I'm pretty sure that's the case, but at the same time, it's not a good thing. Right, like, leucine is important and you want that, and I know you know, especially for your audience. We're talking about optimization, and so that's where leucine is going to be very important, but I don't want to make it seem as though you're going to fall apart without it.

Philip Pape: 15:07

Yeah, yeah, I love these thought experiments, because when you go, people usually ask the other way, like, well, I'm trying to get more leucine because I know how important that is, how important is it really? And obviously we're not. So the thought experiment is go the other direction and if you completely eliminated it, because you know more of the research now is showing us that really getting the total protein is where it's at and we shouldn't necessarily overthink the sources, as long as we have a diverse diet, like you said, opportunivore, just eat a good variety and you should be good. So the proteins okay. So that's really cool that we can't make more muscle cells, skeletal muscle cells, but we have more nuclei. So we'll get back to that.

Philip Pape: 15:41

Two other things you mentioned. One was the glycogen, and that brings to mind carbs, and every time I put out an episode that's like carbs aren't the problem or carbs are okay for you, you get all the hate, like all the YouTube hate, like how dare you? Carbs are terrible, you need to cut carbs. Anyway, I don't want to make this a carb loving episode, but what is the relationship between carbohydrate, sugar, glucose consumption and the glycogen you're referring to supporting our muscles?

Justin Cottle: 16:07

First of all, I can totally empathize with you on that. Like in these days, if you even minorly support carbohydrates, it's a hot button topic. So glycogen is glucose, it's just the storage form of glucose. You have to understand that when it comes down, we go back to slow twitch versus fast twitch Mitochondria. They use oxygen to convert glucose, as well as fatty acids, as well as lactate, into ATP. Atp is the energy currency of the body. So what's nice is slow twitch is filled with mitochondria, just filled with mitochondria, which means if you are actually using slow twitch muscle fibers, you're not really working out. Basically, you are not in an anaerobic state. There's plentiful oxygen. Slow twitch muscle fibers primarily burn fat and so it's when you start doing more explosive or high demand activity that you're going to start contracting more of the fast twitch fibers, and these are anaerobic, meaning that they don't really utilize oxygen. There's mitochondria in there, but I mean, compared to the slow twitch, they don't. Instead, what they utilize is another pathway called glycolysis.

Justin Cottle: 17:20

Glycolysis happens in what's called the sarcoplasm. So again, if you had like the diameter, if you like, took like a cross-section of a muscle cell, all the space where you all the little organelles are floating in that's called the sarcoplasm and there's a fluid in there called cytosol, and that that in there is where chemistry occurs, basically a glucose molecule. So a sugar molecule is broken down into pyruvate. We don't need to get into the actual biochem here. The point is you get energy but you don't get a lot. This is one of my favorite things. Like if I took one glucose molecule and put it into the glycolysis pathway, you get two ATP. But if we kept that process going and you were able to give it to a mitochondria, you would end up with 36 ATP for that same one glucose molecule.

Justin Cottle: 18:11

So that means with oxygen you get more energy. Without oxygen you still get energy, but not enough. So what that means is fast twitch fibers are relying on an anaerobic pathway. They don't get as much energy, so they need more glucose to pull from to try and get energy in those times of high demand. What this means is you need glucose. There is no ifs, ands or buts. Glucose is the fuel source for your fast twitch muscle fibers, right? So they're like your type 2X fibers. Specifically, those fibers need the glycogen and they just have this, all these storages of it that they can pull from and then they can metabolize, they can get the energy, the ATP, they need for that muscle contraction. It's so important. If you did not get glucose in your body, your liver would do what's called gluconeogenesis, and gluconeogenesis is where your liver is like I'm going to start destroying other parts of your body to get the glucose.

Justin Cottle: 19:12

So the idea that we don't need glucose or we can operate without it, I mean, I think that's a modern convenience thing. Right, it's something that we just. This is where nutrition gets fun. It gets interesting and exciting. We're talking more about a biohacking perspective, but I mean very explicitly your body needs carbs. Carbs are essential. It's what red blood cells operate off of. It's what fast twitch muscle fibers operate. Red blood cells operate off of. It's what fast twitch muscle fibers operate. Glucose is what your brain runs off of. So you need glucose, and glycogen is just how you store it.

Philip Pape: 19:43

Yeah, I think it's fascinating. You'll still get people who are sticking to the like. Well, your body can convert or can use fat as its primary storage mechanism, but then when you look at studies comparing two groups of bodybuilders in a surplus, the one that has higher carbs tend to build a lot more muscle, and there seems to be a reason for that. So I think that's important. I love the way you put that, really the whole conversion mechanism and the pathways too.

Philip Pape: 20:05

We recently did an episode about the three pathways. You know the ATP-CP and then glycolytic and then the other one, the aerobic pathway, but whatever the name is, and they kind of all work together. So if you're lifting heavy or even if you're doing intense exercise or HIIT type cardio, it all kind of draws on that and why we need glucose, okay. So the other thing you mentioned just very briefly early was the three types of muscle and you mentioned skeletal, cardiac and smooth, and the smooth is associated with organs. I want to touch on that quickly because recently Macrofactor put out a review of lots of the BMR literature and they found that athletes at rest have a higher BMR than non-athletes accounting for body composition, and they suspect it's due to higher organ size and that organ size has been increased through their activity, through being an athlete Not born that way, necessarily, but they've actually grown their organs and I want to ask you about that what do you think when it comes to metabolism and muscle around organs, the smooth muscle is there a correlation there?

Justin Cottle: 21:05

That is really fascinating, and now I want to dive into that myself. I hadn't heard that, and I mean, just like my instant reaction is it's not all that surprising, that makes sense. But it's really, really interesting because, I mean, smooth muscle is fundamentally different than skeletal muscle, though, and I think, like this is something that's worth diving into real quickly. Like, both cardiac muscle and skeletal muscle are what we call striated. Striated means like if you actually looked at you again, you can see the proteins and they look striped. That's what striated means Cardiac muscle. It does it differently than skeletal muscle, but they're both striped.

Justin Cottle: 21:40

Smooth muscle isn't. Smooth muscle is basically like you have cells that are next door to each other and they form sheets, and then what you can do is you can mold that sheet into like a tube shape or like into a stomach shape, into a bladder shape. Like, smooth muscle is the type of muscle you put places that you don't want to think about that action right, you don't want to voluntarily like how annoying would that be if you had to manually release your stomach, move things through your intestines? The smooth muscle exists to contract, but what that means is how it contracts is more through an electrical stimulus and the whole sheet contracts at once.

Philip Pape: 22:18

That is so cool. Okay, I never thought of it that way because it's involuntary and it all contracts at once because it's a big sheet. Also, just so people know, if you eat organ meat, if you've ever had heart, it's very much like other muscle tissue and that makes a lot of sense because it's striated. Throw it in some chili, you hardly notice it's there. But if you got a little liver, you see it, you notice it. Anyway, continue.

Justin Cottle: 22:38

That's really cool.

Justin Cottle: 22:38

So it's like when it contracts in unison, right?

Justin Cottle: 22:41

So, basically, what's happening is I mean, you could literally just you could put this to any shape you want, and what that means is it's going to just contract at once.

Justin Cottle: 22:50

Well, at the same time, though, organs, their function, are going to increase with other metabolic increases, right? So if you're putting on more muscle mass, then globally, there's going to be more demand for, like even just generally speaking, you're going to have more waste products from muscle cells that need to be cleaned out by the kidneys. So, therefore, that would make a lot of sense that the kidneys are going to have to respond in size, or at least in function, and upregulate to adjust for that, and that should happen across every single organ. That's what I'd be interested to see, right? I don't want to make it seem like it's a one-in-one correlation, right? Like? You put on this many pounds of muscle mass, and then your kidneys, your liver, they grow, that's, you know, some similar amount, but it makes complete sense to me that smooth muscle would need to respond, because the smooth muscle is going to need to work harder, based on the just overall global increase in metabolic processes.

Philip Pape: 23:45

Yeah, it's fascinating. It's another reason people can kind of latch on to for all of these what seem to be mysterious reasons that a more active lifestyle also allows you to eat more and burn more calories, which you know is a struggle for people who like. Food is a part of everyday life, and nutrition and just the amount you eat is part of the whole process. Yeah, I recently learned that, and you know, organs make up like 5% of our mass, but they consume half our BMR. So if you could even move them a little bit, it's going to make a difference. So cool man.

Philip Pape: 24:14

Yeah, maybe that's a future topic for one of your uh, your YouTube or one of your articles. Yeah, yeah, so okay, uh, where do we want to take this next? How about contractions? You know, concentric versus eccentric contractions. We talk about different types of training for muscle growth and people always trying to find the next best thing lengthened partials, eccentric only right, overloaded, like let's just overload the down position on a bench press. What are your thoughts on all of that? Regarding what you know about how muscle fibers work, are we overthinking it? Is that like not necessary, or is there some value there?

Justin Cottle: 24:46

My gut. It's not necessarily gut, but I mean like there's definitely research to back this, but I think it's more so an overreaction. You know, I think there's some kind of psychological thing that we all think and hope and expect that there is this secret sauce somewhere. We just got to find that one little thing. And the thing is a lot of times that's true, you know, there's so much truth to that.

Justin Cottle: 25:08

But if you look through and I know you're going to very well understand this, right, if you look through the history of this aspect of trying to find the most optimal way, the most optimal type of contraction, whether it's eccentric, concentric, so on and so forth, it's going back and forth, right, whenever we think we have something, then we don't, and then we have something we don't. To me it's like I mean, we can very clearly say, okay, eccentric is going to, you know that's going to shred muscle tissue Absolutely. However, does that make it more conducive to hypertrophy? Not really, at least not that I've seen. You know, like there's been times we thought that was true, right, people will know like time under tension was just so you know that was TUT, that was an acronym, everybody knew it, yeah.

Justin Cottle: 25:49

And then now it's kind of like well, I don't know about that actually, and that's where it's like to me, from my understanding of the body. It's like it's not about as much as I wish there was some optimal type of contraction. It's more so about just diversity, and that's always what it seemed to me, right, it's not that you're only doing eccentric or mostly doing eccentric, it's okay, it's. You're doing full range of motion, right? You're doing concentric, you're doing eccentric, you're doing isometric, you're looking for diversity with this, you're getting creative with it, right? Like if you're stuck in the pattern, if you're just sitting there doing the same routine over and over, obviously your muscles are going to adapt and so you need to break that routine.

Justin Cottle: 26:31

To me, it's all about diversity. And so when you add that diversity with individuality right, as any coach will tell you then it's like okay, well then I also have to take it person by person. And as much as we want this like cookie cutter, like this is the rules. That here's your 10 commandments. This is exactly what you do.

Justin Cottle: 26:44

The body just doesn't work that way, and muscle tissue very much doesn't work that way. It's meant to respond to specific demands and then it gets used to them, and so you have to be able to surprise the muscle in certain ways. But at the same time, there's obviously general guidelines that are true, right, like you know it's, there's certain activities that are going to be a little more targeted for fast twitch versus slow twitch. There's all sorts of things that you can work within, but in terms of, like, concentric and eccentric and those things, I've just personally felt like we've been overthinking it, like the everyone's been overthinking it for a long time yeah, okay now, that's good to hear, and we also know the eccentric makes you sore like sore as hell.

Philip Pape: 27:24

You know, if you do too much of it, like if you do a bunch of air squats, you're're going to get sore and the benefit may be minimal depending on if your body's totally used to just doing body weight movements.

Jerry: 27:35

I just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.

Jerry: 27:37

I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 27:46

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip.

Philip Pape: 28:48

I want to challenge, maybe, or hit on something you said about muscle surprise or and I know other terms have been used, like confusion and shock and everything, and I want to separate the bro stuff from the reality, because you talked about not getting stale, not hitting that plateau, and the first thing that comes to mind to me is how people, in my opinion, too often change things up, don't make enough progress and, for example, if you do a bench press and the next time you add five pounds, that's also different, like that also causes adaptation, even though it's the same movement. So where's the separation on? Let's be consistent for a while with our training and actually do the same movements and progress on them versus we need to change and our bench press is stalling, so let's move to a pause or a closed grip or tricep work. You know what I mean.

Justin Cottle: 29:34

Yeah, absolutely yeah. You hit the nail on the head right Like the bro. Science with this can really take over if we're not careful. And so, for most people, most of the time, stick with your routine, stick with what's working, because it's going to continue to work, and you'd be surprised at how long often it's going to continue to work. And you know, it's like a lot of times we talk about at the extreme levels or the opposite ends. The extreme ends, you know, we're talking about the elite of the elite. That's when they you start seeing these pretty interesting plateaus, and it takes a lot of cognitive effort and time and experimentation to figure out how do we break that plateau. That's not most people. At the same time, though, there's genetic factors, there's individual factors, there's dietary factors, there's all sorts of things that can just kind of come out of left field and all of a sudden can stall out a little bit here or there.

Justin Cottle: 30:18

And what I mean by surprising the muscle, it's like I'm more talking neurologically where it's like, you know, if you think about it, like you're just getting this repetitive action potential being sent to the sarcolemma. So the sarcolemma is the outside of the skeletal muscle cell, and then you have a neuron that's right on the other side of it. So this, that location where the neuron is communicating with the sarcolemma, is called the neuromuscular junction. That's where acetylcholine is, you know, transverses the cleft. And then what I mean here is, like when we're talking about like just how a signal is sent.

Justin Cottle: 30:50

You know, sometimes a quick little jolt, a little bit of a change can actually alter this enough to where you can start playing with motor units in subtle ways. That can almost I don't want to say trick, that's not the right word but it can influence your central nervous system to start maybe trying new things, maybe sending more motor units or more prolonged action potentials. So it's more of like you are just neurologically being diverse, as opposed to like changing your routine from the ground up. Right, it's just it's being willing to play with it. And oftentimes you said it add five pounds, right, like you know, it's like maybe you're just adding a little bit, you still do the same routine. It's those incremental progress can be enough too, can also definitely do it. So it's not like you need to change everything and, just like you know, basically go out in the woods and just like chop wood and do all this kind of stuff.

Philip Pape: 31:39

Yeah, no, I love the phrase neurological surprise. I'm going to steal that in the future and give you credit for it, because that's a really good way to put it. It reminds me of a form of training that I've done in the past and I'm probably going to do again, influenced by Westside Barbell, louie Simmons, back in the 80s. These were powerlifters, but my coach has a programming style based on that, and on two days of the week max effort days you actually test a 1RM, the day's 1RM, not your max PR, but what is the 1RM at that moment? Even if you're in a fat loss phase, you don't have as much energy and you've lost weight. What is your 1RM in that moment?

Philip Pape: 32:13

And then you do some back offsets, but the key is, over about six weeks you're rotating the variance of that lift.

Philip Pape: 32:20

So every Monday if you're doing, you know, back squat, this week you're going to do a pause back squat and then a box squat and then a front squat, and you're basically rotating with the idea of being that if you kept doing the same one, you would get so fatigued and the adaptation wouldn't be worth it anymore. It just kind of reminds me of that, right, because even that's a subtle difference in the movement, but it's enough, like you said, to unlock something going on with the motor units. I think that's awesome, that's really cool. Okay, so you mentioned the variability between humans in part of your answer there, the genetic differences, and I know we got into that last time how any one thing that you examine in the human body could have on the record, you know, 15 variants but in reality 200 or infinite permutations. How does that play out when it comes to, I guess, muscle fiber composition and but hypertrophy potential, specifically like the genetic variance between people?

Justin Cottle: 33:12

Yeah, that's a great question. So, like I mean broadly speaking, I was thinking about this in, like in just preparation for, you know, our interview, where I was like if I could just say, like, what are the four things? Well, there weren't four at the time. I've narrowed it down to four things, 22 things. Like hypertrophy, just broadly speaking, just means the cells getting bigger, and so if you add more protein, then it's obviously going to get bigger, which means if you're actually training for strength, then you're obviously getting hypertrophy. But that's not what we really mean, right, like we're talking an increase in cell size. So basically, the four things that make hypertrophy right is an increase in protein, an increase in the sarcoplasm, so like glycogen, mitochondria, things inside of the cell, inflammation which comes from I mean, like everyone knows this you get swole, right. So you're just literally going to engorge. But also during the repair process. And then satellite cell activation, right, the cells on the side that lend their nuclei to make the cell actually bigger. But what's interesting about that is every single one of those has genetic variability, right? How well do you, you know, build your sarcoplasm? How well do you build protein? How many satellite cells do you have available to you, which is likely predetermined at birth, right, like you think about, like some bodybuilders, just no matter what, are going to be better than everyone else. There's just, there's nothing that could possibly, there's no hurdle that you could cross, that it would get closer to them and it could just be they have more satellite cells available to them, so they have more myonuclei, and therefore it's just.

Justin Cottle: 34:42

There is these types of variabilities with it, with skeletal muscle type, right, like that goes. That goes into the fiber, I mean into the protein amount. Some people will have a higher density of slow twitch. Some people will have a higher density of type 2a or 2x or more hybrid fibers. I am not super clear on like. In terms of like, I imagine there's probably ethnicity differences. I imagine that there's just geographical differences, but I'm not. I don't want to give anyone bad information, but at the same time, it's like there are clear differences with this, and we see this in athletics. Right, you don't have to look anywhere else outside of athletics to just see that some people it's like their body's built for explosive movements, like it's just like they do it better. Well, that's probably because they do. They have probably more 2x fiber and they are literally contracting faster than you and there's no amount of training that you could ever do to overcome that.

Philip Pape: 35:34

Before you go on, I'm sorry. I was talking to my wife last night about a kid we grew up with and he was like half my age and he could just fly barefoot on the asphalt and he can run. It wasn't even believable how fast he could fly and you're like that. There's something genetic there. Anyway, continue.

Justin Cottle: 35:49

I totally get it Like. It's just, some people are better at certain actions, and that's okay, right. That doesn't mean that you can't be great. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive for the best you can do. It's just we all have these genetic limitations. They definitely exist with fiber type.

Justin Cottle: 36:02

What's fascinating to me, though, is, you know, if you went back 20 years, we used to think like you couldn't even change your fiber type at all, and now we're like, wait a minute, training can actually change fiber type. Maybe it's more subtle, maybe it's not that big for most people, and you really only see that those gains at the ends of the extremes of the spectrums. But at the same time, it's like it's amazing to me how much we've learned in just the past 10 years around fiber type and what can actually change based on training, and I don't want you to think like, if you're have more slow twitch, that you're going to not be able to do, you know explosive type workouts. At the same time, though, I mean you are going to be limited to some extent to how good you can get for sure.

Philip Pape: 36:44

Yeah, I think was it our conversation? I think it was last time. We talked about how, if you look at the world of athletics, there are so many types of sports and the ways that you use your body that you may be optimal for one and may not even know it, unless you try different things right. And some people maybe luck out and they grow up and they love something because they're good at it. But I do like the more powerful message that, okay, there's this range, there's variability between humans. Some people are on the outliers and they're going to be elite. Fine, maybe you're not trying to do that. You just want to look great, feel great, perform great, maybe enjoy some sports and there's something you can do about it. And so one thing is the fiber type. What would you say is the other thing, or two out of those four areas protein, cycloplasm, inflammation and satellite cell activation that we have the biggest impact over?

Justin Cottle: 37:33

I mean, like, when it comes to inflammation and repair, I mean that's obviously going to be just like how you rest, right. I mean this just goes to show, just like that's a good one.

Philip Pape: 37:37

Let's talk about that.

Justin Cottle: 37:39

It's always surprising to me how I love that things have changed. Right, like rest and its understanding of the importance of rest has really started to make some changes, but I still think there's a lot of significant work that needs to be done with it in terms of, like, even just resting in between sets, like we can take, like just talking about in your workout, versus, okay, are you resting for 24 hours, 72 hours? How are you cycling through muscle groups? You know, is it upper, body, lower? But like, there's all this nuance to it.

Justin Cottle: 38:04

But rest is so important because this is how you replenish glycogen storages.

Justin Cottle: 38:09

This is how you because if you destroy I say that maybe not destroy if you injure the muscle tissue through micro damage, through micro tears, right, you have the lactate, you have all this stuff.

Justin Cottle: 38:20

It takes time to rebuild that stuff and you want it to take that time and you want to give your body that time because you will come back stronger. You will 1000% come back stronger. So you're going to get that immediate hypertrophy from the inflammation and swelling and then it's going to transition into actual hypertrophy because you've constructed more mitochondria, you've constructed more proteins, you've given your body the time to actually adapt to the situation that you put it in right, like if you're changing your routine or if you're just adding more weight or whatever kind of change you're making. You got to give yourself time to recover, and that can sometimes be 72 hours or more. Right, the importance of rest it really just comes down to. You know you got to give your body the time to do what you want it to do and what you are. You know you really are doing when you're working out.

Philip Pape: 39:13

Yeah, there's that. We all have that immediate gratification. And it's funny you mentioned immediate hypertrophy versus actual hypertrophy, because there is a thought of getting a pump, getting sore, sweating, enjoying your workout, all of which can be wonderful things as far as motivators in the moment, but not all of which are necessarily an indicator of what is to come when not coupled with the follow-up action of rest. And you pointed out the different types of rest, which is great Cause I was thinking, okay, we're going to talk about, you know, sleeping and resting between sessions, but let's, you know, start small and work our way up the pyramid between sets. Very important, right, because we've heard we see a lot of people doing the 20, 30 seconds and just like going to the next one, which again, could be effective if you're doing mile reps or some form of like close to failure training and you want to be more time efficient, but it also may not be enough.

Philip Pape: 40:04

If you're doing, say, a deadlift or back squat and now you know you're not giving yourself enough rest, then we have between our sessions in general and then between muscle groups being stimulated across those sessions. It's kind of like an overlap when we do a four-day split or something you might work out three or four days in a row, but they're different muscle groups and then finally recovering your glycogen storage due to all the tearing and whatnot, and that's where nutrition, and again carbs and everything, can come into play as well, as well as not training fasted, in my opinion. So, all of that said, are there like a couple, like big tips I'll call them low hanging fruit for folks that you've seen. They don't do enough of that. Hey, do this, and it kind of could be a game changer on your road to recovering better.

Justin Cottle: 40:50

The only one that really truly comes to mind is something I'm so glad I think we even might've talked about it a bit last time, I think and if we didn't, we should have is sleep, and you just mentioned it. Right now, I'm still surprised at how many people aren't really prioritizing sleep, how many people say they are but they're really not. And sleep is just one of the most important things you can possibly do and I swear, every single month it's becoming more and more important, or at least more and more in the public eye. People are just talking about it more and more, and it makes me so happy.

Justin Cottle: 41:20

It's finding that time to really take care of your sleep is such an important one. But at the same time, just a more lower scale, I would say just taking time and resting between sets is probably one of the easiest ones. I understand that you could get bored. I'm not saying you have to rest. I mean, I forget what it is. It's something like you can go as high as like four or five minutes, like that's like a real solid recommendation. But I totally understand where you're just like jittery.

Justin Cottle: 41:45

You're just like I want to talk, right, but at the same time you jittery, you're just like I want to talk right, but at the same time, you know, taking that time, taking the time to rest, not being afraid of resting, it's really only going to add what? Maybe 10 minutes to your workout. I mean, it's not going to be that big of a deal, but little things like that really go a long way. But that's what comes to mind immediately is just be sleep.

Philip Pape: 42:04

I mean both of those. Obviously sleep. I feel like sleep is one of those unsexy topics. Every time we bring it up, if I make an episode about it, I'm like how do I even title this thing? Because people are like going to skip or delete. I just feel that from people when we talk about sleep and maybe there's a way to make it more interesting and tie it to the result. Maybe you have ideas on that.

Philip Pape: 42:23

But the resting between sets you mentioned you know four or five minutes. I think that's a great recommendation when you're getting started and you're trying to progress and lift heavy and just kind of give yourself the best shot to get all the reps. Because one of the things I hear from newer lifters is I just missed my reps, what do I do? And I'm like, well, don't miss the reps. And the way you don't miss the reps in the first place is probably taking longer rest periods. I'm guessing that's like the thing you're not doing other than, okay, you're not sleeping, you're not eating, you know all the other recovery aspects. So yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one, jess. I did want to ask you about you mentioned the genetic differences. Something you mentioned there made me think of that bull, that cow that's like overly muscular. Do you know what I'm talking about? I don't think it's urban legend. It's like a genetic defect that caused this bull to get like massively muscular. Do you know what I'm talking about, or no?

Justin Cottle: 43:16

I don't. I don't know, Okay, I mean you're welcome to like. Tell me about it.

Philip Pape: 43:20

No, I don't have the details on it, it just came to mind. I remember seeing it and it was like just imagine Ronnie Coleman times three as a bull okay.

Justin Cottle: 43:30

That's the most terrifying bull ever. Is what?

Philip Pape: 43:32

you're Unsettling. It revolts you to look at it because it's so unnatural. But of course I'm sure people look at that saying how do I get the pill to do that for me?

Justin Cottle: 43:41

Anyway, yeah, yeah, I will say I don't know, for some reason, this is what jumped in my mind. Yeah, yeah, I will say I don't know, for some reason, this is what jumped in my mind, just kind of. What's been interesting is there has been a kind of a shift in the myonuclear domain hypothesis. So the myonuclear domain hypothesis has to do with the myonuclei from the satellite cells. So basically you can think of it like this right, as the cell gets bigger and you add more nuclei, the idea is, what we used to think for a very long time was that the nucleus is only responsible for a certain radius within the whole diameter of the cell, and so you actually have a ceiling for how big that muscle can get, because there's only so many satellite cells that you can have and they can only control so much of an area.

Justin Cottle: 44:24

What's been interesting in the past few years is that we're starting to kind of like think that's not true and what it really seems like is the nuclei can be responsible for a whole lot bigger of an area than we thought, and there and it may even be boundless in some situations, which actually could suggest that hypertrophy doesn't have a ceiling we obviously have a long ways to go to figure out how to get even bigger. I mean I, if you're thinking maybe, or the reason I'm thinking this maybe we really could have Ronnie Coleman times three, you know, just in human form, which would be ridiculous. There's a lot of work that needs to go there. I'm not saying that's it's ready, but it's interesting to think that, like, maybe the ceiling that we thought was there is not actually there and we just got to figure out how to keep on pushing.

Philip Pape: 45:07

Okay, my own nuclear domain hypothesis. That is the hypothesis or it's a counter to that.

Justin Cottle: 45:17

So that's the original hypothesis, is really just saying generally that a nucleus is in charge of a radius. But within that hypothesis we used to think that it was smaller than the data is actually suggesting it is. So it's still under the same name, still the hypothesis. It's just evolving.

Philip Pape: 45:34

Makes sense. Okay, no, that's awesome. I'm going to look more into that. These are all great follow-ups, really good stuff, okay, cool. So you also mentioned muscle damage. So, maybe, going back to anatomy and what you've seen in the lab or what the research says, how crucial is the damage itself for growth? Let's use the right language so people understand what's happening, because we talked in simplistic terms damage, repair, what's really going on and how important is that?

Justin Cottle: 45:57

It's everything. Without damage, without stress, there's no way for tissue to respond and cells and proteins and all of these things to respond. Everything is about stress. There's always an optimal amount of stress. Obviously you can go far beyond and then we have problems. But without stress there's no way to actually modulate, there's no way to change. And so what's actually being affected?

Justin Cottle: 46:22

When you hear like micro tears we all hear about micro tears and it's like a lot of people be like does that mean that is the muscle fiber literally tearing, like, do I have a hole in my muscle? Maybe, kind of, not really, though it's more microscopic. You can have a rupture in the sarcolemma. So again, that was the outside of the muscle fiber. But you can also I'm going to start just dropping terms you can actually shred what's called the sarcoplasmic reticulum, which is what stores calcium. You can start breaking the T-tubule, which is like this invagination, it's like a tunnel that goes into the muscle cell, which is where calcium is going to travel and the action potential. You can shred the actual Z-membranes, the Z-disks, which are like borders of one individual contractile unit. So I can keep on going, you can literally start.

Justin Cottle: 47:09

So when we're talking about muscle damage, there's a lot of things that can be damaged and that doesn't mean that everything does get damaged, and I don't think we have. At least if we do. I don't know this, I don't know how to like, I can't say like this workout will damage your Z membrane as opposed to your T tubule. I don't think. It probably gets that specific. But at the same time it's like the damage can be quite extensive and as long as you're staying within those or you're not overdoing it, then you can actually get some pretty robust repair. Because if you have more efficient T-tubules, then you are actually making it more efficient for the action potential to propagate through the muscle fiber. If your sarcoplasmic reticulum becomes healthier, calcium will be released more efficiently, which could potentially lead to a stronger and faster muscle contraction.

Justin Cottle: 47:57

So when you start actually seeing what's being repaired and being like fortified, you can start seeing how hypertrophy. A lot of times people just view it as the muscles just getting bigger. You're not necessarily getting stronger, which is just a really nonsensical way to view it, because you are getting much stronger. Maybe it's not exclusively with how much protein, but the cell itself is getting stronger, it's getting healthier, it's getting not just bigger. I mean you're literally going to perform better. And again, this just goes back to rest and why rest is so essential because you want to maximize that repair. You want to give your body the time to do that, because if you're not, you're continually injuring the same thing and your body's getting the signal but it doesn't have a way to properly fortify everything.

Philip Pape: 48:41

Yeah, it doesn't think it needs to go beyond that original capacity each time it repairs is what I'm hearing. I do want to hit on the hypertrophy being bigger, not just being muscles being bigger, but also strength, cause yeah, that is a big misconception. It's often this false dichotomy that people create, like are you training for strength or are you training for muscle? Right, and granted, there are extremes, like if you look at power lifters, they may be going for max lifts in a very unique way that you're not going to want or need to do to build muscle, but they kind of lead to the same result because powerlifters are jacked Like once they lose the fat man. You look at Brian Shaw and those guys that have now leaned out and you're like it's incredible. They never thought about or focused on building muscle per se.

Philip Pape: 49:25

And we also know that powerlifters now train in a more well-rounded way, not just doing the big lifts. In fact, that's probably like 20% of their training. The rest of it is accessory work and support work. So are they effectively equivalent? Or if the average lifestyle lifter is listening to this podcast, watching this show, and they're like Justin, what's the best way to train? If I just want to look good. Maybe I want to have a six pack, but I mean and we know nutrition is part of it I just want to look good, be fit. General performance right. Like where would you send them? Easy question, right, yeah?

Justin Cottle: 49:59

You know, and I will say, like I'm not a coach or anything, you know it's like for me. It's like my understanding of this is more based in the science and just like you know for my own working out. But what I would say is, unless you are on those opposite ends of the spectrum, right, if you're really just going for elite type status, I don't think it matters all that much as much as it just means finding something that works for you, because, again, I guarantee, if you were training for hypertrophy, you're going to get a lot stronger too, right? Like, whatever differences are going to be there, you're probably not going to be seeing it in any short term aspect, and so it almost doesn't matter as much as just like, are you seeing results? And that's that, to me, I would say, is what you really want to be heading towards.

Justin Cottle: 50:42

It's more focusing on your nutrition, it's focusing on consistency, it's focusing on all the stuff that we all know we need to do that sometimes we skimp here and there. It's saying, no, like, I'm going to take this seriously, I'm going to get my, I'm going to just check all my boxes and then I'm going to start seeing progress with that. That's, to me the most important thing and that is going to carry you a long way, like a long way just doing that alone. And then what's fun is then you can start experimenting. You know, that's where you can start playing with this and then you can start optimizing.

Justin Cottle: 51:15

So it's I don't know yeah, it's for me, I don't know that I'd send them anywhere outside of just like developing not just the habits, because so many people have the habit of going to the gym right, getting your workout. It's just more like it's everything also around it. It's treating it like an ecosystem. You know, again, it's the getting the sleep, it's getting all that. It's not drinking alcohol. There's so many things that if you can start working on, you're going to see results. That's what I would say.

Philip Pape: 51:40

We're kindred spirits. My man, that's the exact answer I was hoping for, because it is not a binary answer. None of these things are. It's what is going to work for you and, like you said, it's not just doing it. It's doing it, measuring it in some way, seeing that it's working. If it's not working, something has to change, and it may just be one small thing. But don't keep doing what you're doing just because someone says it's the right thing to do if it's not producing results for you. Absolutely, love that. That's what we're all about.

Philip Pape: 52:04

You also talked about having a system or an ecosystem, having just something that works for you. That's part of your routine. I mean, I get up every day and I'm like if I don't train? I don't train every day, but I mean if I weren't training for a week, I would get antsy. I have to do it. It's what works for me, so find what works. I know we're wrapping up on time here. One last question here is do you think what we're learning about this at the cellular level, about muscle growth, about the research, is going to like how is it going to evolve? And, specifically, do we think are there like, any revelations that haven't been discovered or we're trying to get to, that will inform what we are doing in the gym, like is there still a big black box or mystery somewhere that you're hoping we will unlock in the near future?

Justin Cottle: 52:45

You know that is a really good question. And yes, there are plenty. I mean, I don't know, it's hard to say, maybe black box, but there are still plenty of mysteries. A lot of the mysteries within physiology, just generally speaking, is how things work together. Like, if you like, we can see a lot of things there. Like, I want you to put yourself into the position of, like, a research scientist. You can see all the parts. You're just not really sure how they work together, and so the refinement in our understanding of how these parts go together and also the timing in which they do that, there is a lot of room to go with that.

Justin Cottle: 53:16

And what's really exciting for me I know this is a term that's like everyone's kind of getting sick of right now but with AI, a lot of times people think of AI just being this LLM thing like chat, gpt, but there's a lot of really interesting advancements being made in material science, in pharmaceuticals, in the supplement industry, right Targeted medicine and personalized medicine to where it's like what I'm excited about and I can't give you a timeframe on this, like I throw around the number 10 years, I throw around the number five years, I really don't know but I'm excited for like personalized supplementation. I'm excited for kind of like better understanding of what the genetic tests even mean. I'm really excited for how we're going to get better at just delivering these supplements, so not only just giving you what you need, but making sure they are bioavailable to you. To me, I think like we're just starting another revolution, another kind of just huge expansion in this space, where we're going to start feeling healthier than we ever have. It almost sounds science fiction. It almost sounds like pie in the sky type stuff, and that's why I'm like constantly amazed that it's not where it's like I have to catch myself when I'm looking into this and I'm like, are you serious? Like that's actually on the forefront.

Justin Cottle: 54:26

You know, um, I mean imagine just, you know, not even needing to, like you know, take like testosterone or any of these like exogenous hormones. Instead, we're just taking care of the body's natural processes to not only build protein but to inhibit protein degradation, to break down. Like there's so many things that we can play with that we are playing with that are going to start being publicly aware. That I think people are going to be really excited about. So I would say, like in the next 10, 15 years probably. We're going to see some of the coolest advancements things right now that, like we are just used to being science fiction. I think that's all in the pipeline and people are going to be pretty amazed.

Philip Pape: 55:03

Yeah, I'm excited about that. I mean, you mentioned like geneticbased personalization and also doing something that can unlock the limitations, like the protein limitation you said, protein degradation where it's like you combine that with the lifting and the eating properly and it's like you just accelerate that process even more. Very exciting, okay, is there anything you wish I'd asked in this conversation? I know we could probably do another hour on this topic.

Justin Cottle: 55:28

No, actually that's the one thing I want is I want to do another hour sometime. So that's what's fun is. It's like these conversations can go so many different directions in so many different ways. I've loved every part of it, but I do want more. I do want more.

Philip Pape: 55:40

Yeah, awesome, and I hope and I know our listeners have gotten a lot out of this, and hopefully your students as well and everybody, especially when we can kind of combine these different industries and how it all comes together. Thank you, man, this has been really awesome. I want people to know where to find all of your the stuff where you geek out and you talk about what you're excited about. So where can people go, justin?

Justin Cottle: 55:59

Yeah, so you can find me at the Dissection Room. You can find me YouTube channel. You can find me all over social media these me, all over social media. These days, I'm also starting to work at a company called Kenhub. They are the world's leading anatomy educator. So if you guys go to Kenhubcom, you can also see a lot of I'm doing videos for their YouTube channel. I'm doing I'm all over the place these days. So just find me the dissection room. Kenhub is the good place to start. How do you spell Kenhub? K-e-n-h-u-b.

Philip Pape: 56:31

Okay, cool, awesome. Yeah, I'll include those in the show notes, as always and, man, this is a pleasure. I learned a bunch of things and these are probably going to spawn some other episodes on my end too, to dive into some of these topics. So I'll hit you up with questions if I have them, which I know I will, and then we'll connect again in the future. Justin, thank you so much for coming on, my man.

Here's Why Your Diet SHOULD Be Restrictive for Fat Loss (Design of Experiments) | Ep 231

"You don't need to restrict your diet to lose fat."

How many times have you heard that? Yet you're still not seeing results.

Here's the truth: some level of restriction in your diet isn't just helpful – it's essential for achieving your fat loss goals. But it's not about cutting out entire food groups or following a rigid meal plan.

Learn how the engineering concept of Design of Experiments (DOE) reveals why smart restrictions actually work better for sustainable fat loss. You'll discover how to create a flexible, effective nutrition plan without feeling deprived or overwhelmed.

Rethink everything you know about dietary restrictions and learn how to engineer your perfect fat loss strategy.

To support the show, please take a moment to leave a 5-star rating and review (links for Apple and Spotify). It helps others discover the podcast and lets us know what content resonates with you. I will give you a shout-out on a future episode!

Main Takeaways:

• Design of Experiments provides a framework for approaching nutrition systematically

• Reasonable restrictions act as helpful guidelines, not rigid rules

• This approach allows for flexibility while still moving you toward your goals

• By gathering data and making informed adjustments, you can optimize your nutrition over time

Episode summary:

In the latest episode of Wits and Weights, we dive into a revolutionary approach to nutrition by blending engineering principles with dietary strategies. This episode aims to redefine how we think about dieting. Forget the conventional wisdom that demands you cut out entire food groups or follow rigid meal plans. Instead, we're exploring how you can achieve lasting fat loss by applying the precision of engineering to your nutrition plan.

At the heart of this episode is the concept of "reasonable restriction." This approach challenges the notion that all dietary restrictions are inherently negative. By employing a method known as the design of experiments (DOE), listeners are guided on how to strategically manipulate variables such as calorie intake, macronutrient distribution, and meal timing to meet personal health and fitness goals. Much like managing a financial budget, it's about making informed, calculated choices that lead to sustainable results.

The episode emphasizes the importance of protein intake, recommending a strategic minimum to support body composition goals. By focusing on nutrient-dense foods, individuals can ensure they meet their essential vitamin and mineral needs while naturally reducing ultra-processed food consumption. Additionally, the episode discusses meal timing as a personal toolkit, offering strategies such as pre- and post-workout meals or intermittent fasting to enhance dietary adherence without feeling deprived.

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to introducing a flexible nutrition framework. This approach promotes personalization over rigid rules, aiming to reduce decision fatigue and accommodate lifestyle needs, such as social events and cravings. It's likened to budgeting for long-term health goals, where nutrition becomes an enjoyable, efficient part of daily life rather than a chore. This framework allows individuals to tailor their dietary restrictions in a way that is both practical and aligned with their unique lifestyle and fitness objectives.

One of the standout features of this episode is its focus on reducing the psychological burden often associated with dieting. By employing a flexible set of guidelines rather than rigid rules, individuals can navigate their nutrition journey with greater ease and less stress. The episode underscores the idea that reasonable restriction provides more freedom, not less, by offering clear targets that eliminate the constant decision-making associated with food choices.

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the podcast by leaving reviews, which not only support the show's mission but also provide valuable feedback for future episodes. This engagement is crucial in helping the podcast reach a wider audience and continue delivering evidence-based, engineering-inspired content.

Ultimately, this episode of Wits and Weights offers a refreshing take on dieting by applying engineering principles to create a more sustainable and enjoyable approach to nutrition. It invites listeners to rethink their relationship with food and discover a personalized path to health and fitness that doesn't compromise on the foods they love. By adopting the strategies discussed, individuals can achieve their body composition goals while maintaining a positive and flexible approach to their dietary habits.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Should you count calories, track macros? Should you cut out carbs or specific foods? Should you avoid dieting altogether and just eat intuitively? Will any of these approaches get you the result you want? If you're confused about all of this, this episode is for you. We are going to dive into an engineering concept called design of experiments and tie it into why some level of restriction is actually helpful, but not necessarily the restriction you've heard about. By the end of this episode, you're going to have a more sustainable, enjoyable way to approach your nutrition while still being successful, achieving the fat loss that you desire.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are hitting on a controversial topic in the nutrition world, and that is restricting Dietary restrictions, restriction in general and just the word, the term, the language that we use around restriction. Now we are not talking about eliminating entire food groups or macros like carbs, or following any sort of extreme diet whatsoever. Instead, we are going to use an engineering concept called design of experiments to show why some level of restriction is actually beneficial but not what you think and then how to implement it in a way that's sustainable and enjoyable, so that you can hold two concepts in your head at the same time and realize that there is a way that these all work together. And before we get into it, if you've been enjoying the show, if you're a longtime listener, or maybe you've just checked out a few episodes and you want more content on what we talk about here building muscle, losing fat hit the follow button so that people can find the show and you don't miss an episode. And then, if you're willing to take an extra small step with your time and find value in the episodes, take a moment to leave a five-star rating or review in your podcast platform of choice Ideally the platform you're using right now to listen to this show.

Philip Pape: 2:24

All right, let's get into this concept, because there is an elephant in the room in the nutrition world with the word restriction. It's gotten a bad rap, right. We've heard all the influencers, all the coaches, myself included, have said you know, you don't need restriction or you can get your goals without dieting, without restriction. And you see, you hear people say that, like you don't need to diet. Uh, and sometimes it's taken to the level of not only do you not need to diet, you don't need to track anything, just eat intuitively with your hunger signals. And while, while every one of these approaches there's a rationale behind it, there there's a little bit of truth to whatever they're saying. It often then leads to a rigid approach that is overly restrictive in the way that prevents you from getting results. Does that make sense? Like you're restricting the wrong things? Let's just start with that premise.

Philip Pape: 3:16

And then, on the flip side, you have approaches that tell you you know, cut out entire food groups, follow rigid meal plans we're talking about traditional diets like keto and the like carnivore, what have you. And that doesn't seem to be working well either for people, because they might quote unquote lose a lot of weight and then they binge it right back. They gain it right back. You hear the very rare story of oh, my friend's been on keto for four years and loves it. Okay, great, 99% of people don't. They don't love cutting out a ton of possible foods from their diet. And so is there a middle ground? Or is there even a different ground that is not even on that spectrum that we're going to talk about today? Yes, okay, and I want to use something called design of experiments DOE from engineering, and this isn't a stretch at all.

Philip Pape: 4:05

This is actually a really good approach to think about this. This is a method to plan, conduct and analyze experiments. That's what it is Plan, conduct, analyze experiments efficiently. We all know I love efficiency, and the goal is to understand the relationship between the factors that affect a process or a system and then the output of that process or system, while working within the constraints that you have all the real world constraints and so I want to apply this to nutrition. Think of your body as the experiment, your nutrition, your diet as the inputs right, the input factors, the inputs, and then your goals your physique goals, body composition goals, whatever have you as the output. Your body is the experiment, the food is the input, your goals are the output. So, like in engineering, we have to work within certain constraints to get those results, and so, when we look at design of experiments, there are four elements that we can use and apply them to nutrition.

Philip Pape: 5:06

The first one is what I'll call controlled variables. In design of experiments, we select specific variables that we're going to change, while we keep others constant. In nutrition, this means what can you change, right? What variables can you change. We can change calories, we can change our macros, like protein, carbs, fats, right and then we can see how they affect our results. So there's certain variables that we keep constant. There's certain variables that we change. So, for example, in keto, you would keep something constant and that is the level of carbs. You cut out all carbs and that doesn't change. So that's an example.

Philip Pape: 5:47

The second element is the constraints. So, again, in engineering we operate within limitations, like time, resources, materials. In nutrition, our constraints might be our daily calorie budget, our macro targets, our food preferences, our lifestyle factors. Some of these might even be non-negotiables, some of them are just upper or lower limits or ranges right, you can even hear some flexibility in here even though they are constraints. The third element is optimization, because the goal of design of experiments is to identify the best combination of variables to achieve the results you want.

Philip Pape: 6:24

Okay, ah, this is where the magic's going to happen, everyone, because in nutrition, this means finding the right balance of all the variables whether it's macros, calories, food choices that lead to our goals while still being enjoyable and sustainable. That, for us, is that is going to be my definition of optimal, not that it's perfectly tuned to get you the results at all costs, but that it gets you the best result while being something you can live with and enjoy. And then the last element here is efficiency. All right, design of experiments aims to gain the maximum output or information with the minimal experimentation or inputs. Right, so get the most for what you put in. And in nutrition, this translates to making those little tweaks, those little strategic changes in our diet based on the data and the results, rather than thinking that an entire extreme approach or diet or rigid plan is going to solve it, and when it doesn't, you switch to an entire separate plan. That makes sense. So we're actually making these adjustments with all these variables along the way. Okay, so hopefully I haven't lost you just with that setup.

Philip Pape: 7:39

Here's where the concept of reasonable restriction comes in, and I don't remember what podcast I was I had a guest on and we were talking about restriction versus deprivation, and a light bulb went off for me when I realized, you know what, at some point, if you need to lose fat and go into calorie deficit and release energy from your body, there is some level of restriction, as in a constraint, as in a limit and it doesn't mean you have to restrict things that cause you to be miserable, however. So, just like how engineers they set parameters for their experiment, we can do the same thing and figure out what it is that allows us to do this in a sustainable way. We can set some guidelines not to deprive ourselves as a rule, like a carnivore, where you say, just cut out all plant-based foods and deprive yourself and tell yourself no and abstain from them, and deprive yourself of, and tell yourself no and abstain from them. In fact, it's not even about deprivation if you know that you have a trigger food for a craving and saying I'm just going to abstain from that. It's really creating a framework that allows us to achieve our goals efficiently, and my definition of efficiently includes not having to psychologically beat your head against the wall and feel like you're constantly depriving yourself of the foods you love, for example. So what does reasonable restriction look like in practice? Okay, this is really cool here.

Philip Pape: 9:02

The first one is about we'll talk about calories. Let's really get nuts and bolts Calories. We don't need to meticulously count calories, we don't need to weigh everything to the gram, but having a general target and awareness through some form of tracking right, kind of like having a budget for your finances so you know how much you are spending, in this case, how much you are spending on you know eating food calories, so that you can make informed decisions. Now I do like logging my food. I do like using an app like MacaFactor to log food so that you can see, in the ballpark of you know, a few hundred calories of what you're eating. But don't take it overboard to where you're obsessed about every little tenth of a gram. And you know you can do this with more generalities, you can do this at a higher level and still have a really good, solid awareness.

Philip Pape: 9:54

Then we have our macros right, protein especially, and we know that prioritizing protein intake is one of the most effective strategies for body composition. And if we just have a minimum like 0.7 grams per pound of our target body weight every day, right. So if your target body weight is I don't know, let's say, 200 pounds, I don't know if you're gaining or losing, let's just say it's 200 pounds for easy math, you'd be going for 140 grams minimum a day, right. And this is again, guess what. This is a form of restriction, because you are restricting what you eat to being at least 140 grams of protein, just like you are restricting what you eat to be within a certain calorie target. That leads us to number three food quality, again, another restriction. Now, no food is off limits, but if we have a constraint that says we're going to emphasize nutrient dense options most of the time so we know we get enough vitamins and minerals, so that we know we are more full right, we have the food volume and it tends to crowd out more ultra processed foods. Well, that's a form of restriction, but it's additive. It's adding in things that you need and want and making sure it's things that you like and that tastes good and that you love to cook and prepare. So you're adding a food quality restriction.

Philip Pape: 11:12

The next one is meal timing. This is another restriction, because you're saying, okay, I'm going to have I'm not going to train fasted, I'm going to eat some protein and carbs before I train. I'm going to have a post workout meal. I'm maybe going to spread my protein intake throughout the day you don't have to, but this is what I want to do for my goals and you are going to eat at certain times of the day. Well, that's a form of restriction. In fact, you could take that to the extreme and talk about fasting and intermittent fasting. That is a form of restriction and again, I'm not saying that's good or bad. It definitely doesn't have any more benefit than any other form of meal timing other than from a practical standpoint, from a logistical, schedule standpoint, adherence standpoint. But that is up to you to decide. What level of restriction do I want with my meal timing? Because if you just say I'm just going to eat whenever and I'm not sure how the macros are going to be balanced out, and maybe I'll train fast and maybe I won't, you're not going to hit your goals that way. So you have to have some guidelines for meal timing.

Philip Pape: 12:08

And then the last level of restriction, of reasonable restriction, is the tracking itself. Now, I already alluded to this when I talked about calories. But the actual act of tracking things in general, not just calories but progress photos and body circumference measurements and biofeedback, those are restrictions. Because you're saying I am going to put a constraint on myself, that I am going to take a moment, right A few minutes every day to identify these and measure these things. That is a form of restriction, reasonable restriction, versus just not doing it.

Philip Pape: 12:39

So now you might be thinking okay, this sounds like a lot of rules. This sounds kind of rigid to me. There, like a lot of rules. This sounds kind of rigid to me. There's a lot of things you want me to think about, but the key difference is these are not rigid restrictions. They're very flexible guidelines that give you a framework, a set of principles to work within, and you can actually have a wide range for all of them, like calories, for example.

Philip Pape: 12:59

If you're losing fat, you can lose fat at different rates of loss. You can go aggressive or not. You can shift your calories day to day. I mean, I could go on. There's a million ways to do this. I've had episodes in the past talking about the various ways to structure your fat loss plan so it fits within your life. Very flexible, very flexible. But what's nice about having a calorie target is you know you can control for energy balance and yet you can still eat a wide variety of foods. So, again, these are flexible guidelines. It's like having a map for a road trip. Right, you know the general route to get there, but you can still take detours. You can still enjoy the journey along the way. Right, You're not going to detour constantly, but in general, you've got flexibility to do that.

Philip Pape: 13:44

So if we were to make this very specific let's say you are in a fat loss phase, using the design for experiments approach, you might set a moderate calorie deficit right Of uh, uh what am I trying to say here? Half a percent of your body weight per week, and then you set up protein minimum, say that 0.7 grams per pound of target body weight. Then I'm going to basically eat whatever fats and carbs I want within my food preferences. After I hit the protein to hit that calorie target roughly within, say, 5%, 10% I'm going to track my food and wait for a while to see what's happening and I'm going to evaluate the results and then make adjustments. And so this gives you clear targets and minimums and ranges to aim for, but still allows for tons of flexibility in your food choices and your indulgences and having some cravings and those kinds of things that other dieting approaches tend to restrict that end up causing failure.

Philip Pape: 14:44

Dieting approaches tend to restrict that end up causing failure. So it is a far cry from the you know, eat whatever you want approach, but it's also a far cry from ultra restrictive diets that eliminate entire food groups. And so this method is what it is, adaptable. As you gather more data about how your body responds, you can refine your approach. Maybe you find you perform better with slightly higher carbs.

Philip Pape: 15:03

Yes, you might be one of the many, many, many people who want to be on a moderate to high carb diet because they perform and recover better. Or you might having a larger breakfast helps control appetite throughout the day. You know, it might be the opposite. Maybe you perform better on lower carbs. Maybe you don't want a big breakfast. You see what I mean. You have the flexibility to do that, and yet you still have some constraints. You are still restricting something so that you can remain within a big box, a big envelope, so to speak, to get to your goal, and then you can optimize the plan over time, like engineers refine their designs through multiple iterations.

Philip Pape: 15:40

So the cool thing about this the surprising perhaps thing about this is this approach of reasonable restriction actually gives you more freedom, not less. It gives you clear guidelines and therefore you eliminate the constant decision fatigue that comes with trying to be perfect all the time. You know your targets, which means you can plan for social events, for travel, the days and when you want a slice of pizza or ice cream which is my vice, or even, yes, alcohol. It's like having a budget for your finances which lets you spend on the things you care about, because you still know you're on track for retirement or your kid's education, and so, instead of viewing restrictions just as a blanket negative, think about the helpful guideline version of restriction that we talked about today, and this can kind of change the game for you when it comes to nutrition and health. So I just want to recap.

Philip Pape: 16:36

Number one design of experiments is a framework to approach nutrition where you have reasonable restrictions that act as your constraints they're your guidelines instead of rigid rules. This then allows for flexibility while still making progress towards your goals, and then you gather data and make informed adjustments along the way to optimize it, and so that makes it very individualized, very personalized. It's exactly what I do with clients and why it is not a one-size-fits-all, why I'm not a macro coach, why I don't provide a template. You can't just download this nutrition plan and run it. It's not a meal plan. It's very personalized, optimized, efficient way where you're like oh, this is way easier than I even thought it would be. I'm eating the food I love. I'm eating the food I love. I'm not very hungry most of the time and I can train effectively and just feel great, feel and look my best, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:27

So, again, if you got any value from today and you haven't already, take a moment to leave me a five-star rating in the app that you're using right now and then, if you're feeling generous in fact, this is coming out around my birthday in October, so a birthday gift to me would be a review.

Philip Pape: 17:42

That would be the best gift you can give me is giving me a review for my podcast. It would be incredible. It just takes a few seconds but makes a huge difference in helping people discover the show and it also gives me some feedback on what resonated with you. Your support you just listening to the show right now really means the world to me and it supports me so I can bring you the evidence-based and, like today's episode, the engineering inspired advice that I love making for you and I hope you enjoy receiving. So, if you found value in any of our episodes, including this one, head over to the rating section, leave that five-star rating and, if you're generous, a review, and I will be eternally grateful. It'll help us reach more people with our message. Until next time, keep using your weights, lifting those weights and remember a little restriction in your diet isn't deprivation, it's smart engineering. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How to Find Fitness Motivation When Nothing Seems to Work | Ep 230

Are you having trouble staying motivated with your fitness goals? Do you start strong, only to lose momentum after a few weeks? Are you wondering why discipline and willpower never seem to be enough?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the psychology of motivation and the hidden forces that drive our behaviors. You’ll learn why relying on willpower isn’t a sustainable strategy and discover seven types of motivation to help you stay on track long-term. From internal motivators like intrinsic enjoyment to external motivators like social support, Philip covers how to identify your primary drivers and create an environment that fosters lasting motivation. Whether you're just starting your fitness journey or looking to reignite your passion, this gives you the tools to build systems for success that don’t depend on fleeting discipline. Find out how to use multiple sources of motivation to crush your goals without relying on willpower alone.

📋 To learn how to reframe your goals and implement them, even when you’re not “motivated,” so you can finally be consistent with your fitness and nutrition, join my email list here or at https://witsandweights.com/email and reply to ask for my “Action-Oriented Goals” guide.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:19 Holly's (listener) question
2:29 Why willpower isn’t enough for long-term motivation
4:15 Seven types of motivation explained
9:00 A client's story about motivation
14:14 How to identify your primary motivators
17:10 Tips for creating a motivating environment
19:15 How action can spark motivation and using the "motivation wave"
22:04 Outro

Episode resources:

• Join my email list here or at https://witsandweights.com/email and reply to ask for my free “Action-Oriented Goals” guide.

Episode summary:

Unlocking motivation for a successful fitness journey is a nuanced topic that goes beyond sheer willpower. This episode delves into the psychology of motivation, explaining why aligning your actions with personal values is essential and how understanding different motivators can sustain your drive toward fitness goals. Discover how to tap into the right sources of motivation, such as intrinsic joy or social incentives, and how they can significantly impact your journey.

One of the fundamental insights shared is the concept of ego depletion, which explains why willpower is a limited resource. This phenomenon underscores the importance of finding motivators that resonate with your personal values, as they are more sustainable. Understanding these psychological aspects allows individuals to craft a personalized motivation plan that isn't solely reliant on discipline.

The episode explores seven types of motivation, ranging from intrinsic and extrinsic to fear-based and social motivators. Intrinsic motivation, for example, is derived from the inherent satisfaction of an activity, like the joy of a runner's high. In contrast, extrinsic motivation might come from external rewards, such as compliments or winning a competition. By identifying which type resonates most with you, you can leverage these motivators to fuel your fitness journey effectively.

An inspiring story featured in the episode is that of a client named Marie. Her journey illustrates the transformative power of aligning motivations with personal values. Initially trapped in a cycle of ineffective fitness plans, Marie discovered that her true motivator was her desire to be active with her kids and serve as a role model. This realization shifted her focus from external goals, like fitting into old clothes, to more meaningful and aligned motivators. As a result, she found joy in her fitness journey and achieved lasting success.

The episode provides a wealth of practical strategies to optimize motivation. Reflecting on past successes can help you identify what has consistently motivated you in the past. Consideration of your core values and identity is crucial, as aligning fitness goals with these elements can significantly boost motivation. The episode encourages experimentation with different motivational approaches, emphasizing that motivation is not one-size-fits-all.

Creating a motivating environment is another key strategy discussed. Setting process-related goals, for instance, can help maintain motivation by focusing on actionable steps rather than just outcomes. Celebrating small wins and connecting goals to a deeper purpose are other effective tactics to foster a resilient mindset. By building systems and routines that align with personal values, individuals can maintain a consistent drive, even during low motivation periods.

The episode wraps up with an invitation to obtain the Action Versus Results-Oriented Goals Guide. This guide is designed to help listeners align their actions with desired outcomes, providing a practical approach to goal setting. It reinforces the idea that motivation is not just a fleeting feeling but a skill that can be developed and refined over time.

In conclusion, understanding the psychology of motivation and aligning it with personal values is essential for a successful fitness journey. By exploring different types of motivation and implementing personalized strategies, individuals can create a sustainable drive that transforms their fitness goals into achievements. This episode is a valuable resource for anyone looking to enhance their motivation and achieve long-term success in their health journey.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

If you're really good at getting excited to finally start going to the gym or fixing your nutrition and then, after only a few days or weeks, you struggle to follow through, or you find yourself constantly starting and stopping diet plans, unable to stay consistent. Or maybe you've achieved some success but you can't seem to stay motivated. This episode is for you. Today, you'll learn about the psychology of motivation, those hidden forces that drive our behaviors, so you can harness them rather than letting them control you. You'll discover why willpower is never something to rely on, how to tap into more powerful sources of motivation, and the surprising ways your environment shapes your actions. If you're looking to reignite that drive and passion, this episode will give you the tools to finally achieve long-lasting motivation with your physical fitness. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are tackling something that is so fundamental to success in fitness and in life, and that is motivation. This episode was inspired by a really good question from a long-time listener, holly B. Holly, if you're listening and I know you are thanks for the inspiration and shout out to you for the question. Holly asked, quote what motivates someone? What are the different kinds of motivations, like external, internal, fear-based, goal-setting, timeframes, peer pressure, performance, etc. So she's kind of setting up the list already for us here. It is a fantastic question, because understanding motivation is often the missing piece. It is the key to achieving whatever the goal is, especially in fitness, where an effective plan requires going to the gym and training multiple days a week and making good decisions most of the time almost daily for your food and your lifestyle. So today we're going to break down the science behind motivation, including seven types of motivators and how you can use these to understand what drives you without relying on discipline or willpower. Now, if you want your question answered or if you want a shout out on a future episode, you can send me a text message using the link in the show notes. So, on your mobile device, click the link to send me a text message and send me a question, and that question will be featured in its own entire episode, or a Q&A, or hey, let me know how you'd want it to be featured and I will definitely take that into serious consideration.

Philip Pape: 2:29

All right, let's get into the topic and I want to break this down into four segments today. The first is the psychology of motivation and why willpower isn't enough. And then the seven key types of motivation and how they influence what you do, your behavior. The third segment is how to identify your primary motivator so you can use them to make progress. And then, finally, some practical strategies to create a motivating environment and then maintain that long-term drive, because we want our motivation itself to also be sustainable, motivation itself to also be sustainable.

Philip Pape: 3:07

So I want to start off with a common misconception that motivation is at any point about willpower or discipline. And how many times have you heard someone say this and you may have said it yourself I just need more willpower to stick to my diet, or I just need better discipline, or I just need to do it, just need to go to the gym consistently. That's all I'm missing is the doing of it. And while action is a part of the equation, when it comes from a place of this reserve, this limited resource we know as willpower, there is a problem because there's something psychologists call ego depletion, the idea that self-control or willpower draws upon a limited pool of mental resources and it can be used up. And when we rely solely on that, then we're setting ourselves up for failure and we instead want to understand what's deeper, the deeper psychological forces that are at play here, because motivation isn't about forcing yourself to do something, it's not that. It's about aligning the actions with your values and then creating the right environment and tapping into both internal and external drivers. Okay, and it'll all become clear as we move forward what I mean by all of that. Okay, aligning actions with values, with the right environment, with both internal and external motivators. So this brings me to seven key types of motivation that research has identified, and if you understand these, then you can use the right motivators for you and your fitness journey.

Philip Pape: 4:35

So the first one is intrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is when you do something because it's inherently fun, enjoyable, satisfying and for fitness. This might be the runner's high you get from a run as much as I'm not a runner people talk about that all the time or what I really tap into the sense of accomplishment after a tough, intense training session where I've hit the numbers, I've progressed, I've worked my muscles, whatever it might be. That's intrinsic. Number two is extrinsic, and this involves external rewards or punishments, things like winning a competition, getting compliments on your physique right. The external validation of your physique, avoiding health issues is even an external or extrinsic motivation. And again, there's no right or wrong with any of these. We can tap into any combination of these at any time to make the whole thing more frictionless and not have to rely on willpower and motivation or discipline.

Philip Pape: 5:34

The third type of motivation is identified motivation. This is when you do something because you recognize that it is important, even if it's not inherently enjoyable. This is a really key one in our space because, for example, you might not love every workout or training session, but you do it because you understand its value for your health and goals. That's still motivation. It's not willpower. There's something there that takes the place of willpower that gets you to show up and go to the gym. Number four is integrated motivation, and this is when an activity aligns with your core values and identity. If being an athlete, being fit and healthy, is a key part of who you are, you're more likely to stay motivated. It's what you do. It is who you are. To the point and I can identify with this to the point where it feels off not to do those things. It actually takes more willpower to not go to the gym. That is a great place to be.

Philip Pape: 6:36

Number five is fear-based motivation, and I think it's important to recognize this because, while it's not always positive fear in fact, fear is almost never positive but it can be a powerful motivator regardless. For example, fear of health problems, right, fear of type two diabetes, fear of osteoporosis, losing mobility as you age, those things might drive you to train as well. And so there there could be a reframing of a positive from a fear, and that's what I like to do, but just understand that that is one of the drivers we have. Number six is goal-oriented motivation, and this is setting specific, measurable targets and working toward them. So notice, I put it in its own category right, I want to lose 20 pounds of fat, I want to deadlift 300. It's that kind of approach, and humans really love goals, we love going after numbers and progress and specific endpoints, and, again, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it aligns with what you're doing in a positive way. And, again, it's just one type of motivator, not the one we rely on.

Philip Pape: 7:39

And then number seven is social motivation Very important, very powerful. This is peer pressure, accountability, the desire for social connection, working out with friends or a training partner joining a fitness community Facebook group'm a coach and so I fully recognize, when I hire a coach, how much it motivates me in so many ways, whether it is peer pressure, whether it is the support, whether it is hey, they're waiting for me to check in and show that I've made progress, so I better get my butt in gear. So it's kind of an external thing, but it is very integrated into self-motivation in being related to a community and be motivated by a social group. We are social creatures. All right now you might be wondering okay, that's a lot. Definitely go back and review those seven motivators if you need to identify which ones are most resonating with you. And you're wondering okay, what's the best one?

Philip Pape: 8:35

And like any of the stuff we talk about on the show, there's no one size fits all answer. Different types of motivation work better for different people and in different contexts, different situations, which can change week to week, month to month, year to year. The key here is understanding what drives you personally and how to leverage multiple sources of motivation. So kind of like putting together your menu of motivation so that willpower gets to become a smaller and smaller slice and just disappears from the pie altogether and all you're left with is things that just motivate you to naturally get the job done. So let me tell you about, like the typical client I work with and I'm going to I'm thinking of a specific client, I'm going to protect her identity and use a name. I'm going to I'm thinking of a specific client, I'm going to protect her identity and use a name. I'm going to call her Marie and this particular client.

Philip Pape: 9:23

When she came to me, she was over it, like she was done. She tried all the diets keto, low carb, even some extreme stuff like those juice cleanses, all of it and she'd always kind of start out strong, super motivated, quote unquote but then eventually life would get in the way, life would happen, and she'd find herself back at the beginning and stuck in a cycle Very common that I deal with when clients come to me and then she felt like she couldn't break free because the only option was to start a new cycle of something that she knew inevitably would fail. And Marie's motivation had always been about well, I want to be able to fit into these clothes, or this dress that I wore at my wedding 10 years ago, or the jeans that I wore in my twenties. And that was the problem. Even though it's, it's an external motivator of some kind at least it seems to be she was focused on a goal that wasn't meaningful. It wasn't meaningful to her anymore. So, yeah, it's external, but it wasn't aligned, and if you go back and listen to the seven motivators, notice the recurrence of the motivation being aligned with you and your goals. And so it was something that she thought she should care about, not something that actually mattered to her right now and then that's why it never stuck. So we dug deeper I always like to dig deeper when we do our onboarding call and then as we move forward, because I think mindset is the biggest part of this and then we wanted to tap into the types of motivations that aligned with where she was in life.

Philip Pape: 10:50

So for Marie, it wasn't about fitting into the dress, it was about having the energy to be active with her kids, right, and be a role model for her kids. And, yeah, maybe being leaner and stronger and fitter was an outcome of that, but it was a lagging indicator. The true motivator was her children, and that is what we call integrated motivation, but that's not it. She also realized that she missed the feeling of accomplishment from her workout. She wasn't getting the progress and yet she was working out a lot, and that's a disconnect, right. And so we wanted to lean into intrinsic motivation and help her find an activity that she enjoyed and gave her progress, which happened to be lifting weights. And I know a lot of you are thinking well, I don't like lifting weights. Well, when lifting weights gets you a result that is highly satisfying and also gets you the physique and the health and the role model that you want to be, it gets you the things that you want, you will like it. That's kind of where I'm going with that you.

Philip Pape: 12:36

And then, to top it off, we got her connected, of course, with a supportive group in my coaching program and she was able to tap into that social motivation, which is hugely important. In fact, just this week I had someone in my group who was actually she wanted to cancel, and this happens occasionally. Where somebody is very motivated, they get started, get started. We get her the tools and onboarding and a plan and even the accountability and the calls. But there was a piece of it that wasn't aligning for her and it was. It was a specific type of tracking that she didn't like it wasn't tracking in general. It was. It was thinking she had to track in this specific way and it wasn't aligned with her Right. So we had to tap into the true motivators of why she's doing this and find a way that actually worked. And she did. And the only way oh, my whole point was the way she was able to do that was bringing it up in the group setting and actually have two or three of my other clients chime in with their ideas, rather than the coach just saying this is what you need to do, and kind of help her brainstorm through it. And as a collective group we were able to say okay, here's the thing we suggest. You said oh my God, I hadn't even thought of that. That actually sounds like a lot of fun. Let me do that. And now she's making progress.

Philip Pape: 13:47

So, going back to Marie, you know, over about a 10 month period we worked together. Yeah, she lost like 27 pounds on the scale and 4% body fat. And while that's important from a pure numbers and fat loss perspective, it wasn't because she was chasing the number or some outdated idea of what she thought she should look like, but because she was living in a way that matched her values. She wasn't just going through the motions anymore, she was enjoying her training sessions, and then she wanted to eat in a way that worked for her and supported it, and then she started to feel strong and confident again, again, and then, of course, yeah, she lost some fat and got leaner as a result, which was almost like almost didn't matter at the end of the day, because the other things were already satisfied, and so the key here for her wasn't finding willpower at all. It was aligning her motivation with what truly mattered to her, and that's where the real change happened.

Philip Pape: 14:42

So let's apply this to you. Let's break down how you can identify your primary motivators and use them effectively. First, reflect on your past successes. Think about times when you've been consistently motivated in your fitness journey or in any other area of your life, something that you've done. That seems like a hard thing that other people may not do, but you do it, and you do it consistently, and there's some reason for that, and you don't feel like you're forced to do it either. What drove you? Was it the intrinsic enjoyment of the thing? Was it the pursuit of a goal? Was it the support you had from your partner or a group, right, identify the thing aligned with one of the seven motivators and it could be multiple. So that's the first thing to do is look at what you've done successfully in the past and what motivated you.

Philip Pape: 15:28

The second, I want you to consider your values and identity. What's important to you? How does fitness fit into your overall vision for your life? Right, the more that you can align your fitness goals with your core values of who you are, who you want to be, but really who you are should be living right now to be that person, the more motivated you'll be to pursue them. All right, that's the second thing is to consider your values and what's important to you. Third, I want you to experiment with different approaches. So I talk about this a lot, experimentation. There's no one size fits all. There's no plan. There's no here Do. The Philip Witson Waits plan of motivation doesn't exist. It's very individualized. This is why a lot of people hire me as a coach to help them find what this is for them.

Philip Pape: 16:14

I want you to try setting specific goals and see how that affects your motivation. Or join a class, or find a training partner or a group. Join our Facebook group totally free and tap into that social motivation right. Go through the list of motivators and figure out which one seems most accessible, interesting, something that you can identify with right now and give it a shot. Pay attention, then, to how these different strategies impact your drive and your consistency, because for one person, a goal might be a great idea. For you, it might be intrinsic or social support. It's okay and it's beneficial if you have multiple sources. I think of it almost like motivation diversity, or like your nest egg, right? Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Don't put all your eggs in one motivation basket. Rely on multiple sources, it's okay. You might be primarily driven by health concerns, which is a form of identified motivation, but you might also enjoy the social aspect of a group workout, and I'm not against that. I have plenty of clients who love group workouts, so we kind of blend in a little bit of strength training, a little bit of group work, and they enjoy it. You might enjoy the sense of accomplishment from hitting a target, like getting your lift to a certain number. It's all fine, okay. So that's kind of how you reflect on this and then identify how you want to go ahead.

Philip Pape: 17:34

If I were to get a little more specific and practical in terms of the environment. So that you can make this even easier and even more frictionless, I've got a few tips that come to mind. The first one is always set process-related goals, not just outcome goals. So, even though I mentioned before, yeah, you can set lose 20 pounds as a goal, I would want to set up micro goals that get you to that. Like I'm going to train three days a week, I'm going to eat protein with every meal, and so on, and those are more within your control. Every meal and so on, and those are more within your control. They're more today, things you can do. Check off the box, say I did it or I didn't, and then move on, and then you get those regular wins that keep you motivated. Huge fan of that.

Philip Pape: 18:17

The second one is taking more control of the environment as best you can, and this could be joining a gym where you don't feel intimidated or that has the right equipment, finding a training partner, following people who inspire you I hope I do, and this show does but also weeding out the people that are toxic and don't inspire you, but following the people that do, and even controlling your physical environment and your kitchen environment, for example, because it does play a huge role in your motivation and you do have some control over its shape, how you shape your environment. The next tip I have for you is habit stacking Always love that one Attaching your new habits to existing routines. So, for example, tying your workouts to your morning coffee, tying your walking to listening to a podcast. You know, taking the power of something that's already so ingrained in what you do and then just tweaking it to add this extra little thing that seems like no big deal and before long it compounds into something amazing. And so you know I I could go on. I don't want to make this episode too long, but if, if you can make it so that you feel like you're accomplishing and celebrating things just about every day along the way. It might not be all the things, it might be okay, you made this meal choice today that you're proud of. Okay, you took a nice long walk today that you're proud of, but every day there's something that's going to keep tapping into intrinsic motivation and build momentum. And then the other types of motivators can also come, you know, kind of pile on and just going back to the why right, connecting your goals to that deeper purpose of playing actively with your kids or grandkids, feeling confident in your own skin, the stronger that why, the more resilient this motivation will be. So those are some tips I have, as I mentioned before.

Philip Pape: 20:08

You know, people ask me how do you find motivation? And I think motivation often follows action, not from discipline or willpower, but just from these simple little things. We often feel we need to be motivated to act right. We often feel we need the motivation first to oh, how do I get motivated? But taking action that's fairly effortless and frictionless can create this motivation through the wins, and that's why the just show up mentality can be powerful. Right, even if you don't feel like training, commit to getting to the gym and doing it for five minutes, and then you'll find that once you start you're like, yeah, well, I'm here, I'm going, it feels great, let me do the whole training session. And that ties into a concept called the motivation wave. All right, so that's my last thing for you here the motivation wave.

Philip Pape: 20:55

Motivation itself naturally ebbs and flows. It's not a constant. All right, you want to build systems? We talk about systems In fact, it's in my opening of every podcast building systems that carry you through life and low points of motivation. And here's the little trick I have for you when motivation is high, that's when you want to use it to set up these systems, and then, when motivation is low, you're going to rely on your systems and just focus on showing up. This is a game changer. This takes the pressure off always needing to feel motivated and instead you're just focused on consistent action. That's it, and then, over time, you build momentum, you create the results and guess what? It keeps motivating you forever, and I love that. I think it's awesome, I think it's empowering.

Philip Pape: 21:44

So let's recap what we talked about today. The first thing is that motivation is complex and it's beyond willpower and discipline. It's a totally separate thing that I want you to think of as something that we do want to look for instead of discipline. Second, there are multiple types intrinsic, extrinsic, identified, integrated, fear-based, goal-oriented and social. Number three is that the most effective motivational strategy is personal. It's the one that works for you, depends on your values, depends on your goals and preferences. And then, number four, creating a supportive environment and using multiple sources of motivation is the key to long-term success. And once you do that, action is easy, it creates motivation and it just builds on itself. So remember, understanding and using motivation itself is also a skill. It's also a skill. It's okay if you're not there yet. It takes practice and refinement. I want you to be patient with yourself. I want you to experiment with different strategies and just keep showing up. If you do that, you'll be good. All right, if you found value in today's episode.

Philip Pape: 22:45

If you want to take the next step in harnessing that power of motivation, I created a guide as part of my coaching program and I'm going to give it to you for free. It's called Action Versus Results Oriented Goals and it's going to help you transform your approach a bit and think about how you set goals today and how you might shift those goals to something that creates action instead of focusing on a result. And that goes back to what I talked about earlier with process orientation instead of results orientation. All right. And the guide's gonna show you how to shift from vague goals to very specific, actionable ones that help you build momentum and then tie it into the motivators. You'll learn how to reframe those goals. You'll learn how to implement them in your day-to-day and then stay consistent, even when motivation itself isn't quite at its highest.

Philip Pape: 23:32

So if you want to get your copy of the Action Versus Results-Oriented Goals Guide. Join my email list, click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email and then, when you're on the list, just reply to it and say, hey, I want the action-oriented results guide and I'll send it right over Again. Just go to witsandweightscom slash email to join my list and ask for the action-oriented results guide. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting some weights, and remember, when it comes to motivation, action is sometimes the best catalyst. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

The 5 Stages of Fitness Over 40 (Your Health and Longevity Roadmap) with Allan Misner | Ep 229

Are you over 40 and frustrated by slow progress in your fitness journey? Do you find it harder to build muscle, lose fat, or maintain energy levels like you used to? Do you need help creating a sustainable plan for health and longevity?

Philip (@witsandweights) sits down with fitness expert Allan Misner, host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast and author of The Wellness Roadmap, to break down the five key stages of fitness transformation after 40. Learn how to stop wasting time on ineffective workouts and diets and build a clear path toward lifelong health and success.

Allan shares the five key stages of fitness transformation after 40, offering practical insights on how to make lasting changes in your health, even if you’ve struggled for years. He’ll dive into the mindset shifts, motivation strategies, and systems you need to stop spinning your wheels and finally achieve sustainable fitness results in midlife and beyond.

📱 Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes. https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:46 Stage 1 - The catalyst: When you realize something needs to change
7:32 Stage 2 - Starting over: Facing the challenges of starting a fitness journey after 40
10:11 The turning point when Allan decided to change
13:11 Stage 3 - Sustainability and balance: Training for a Tough Mudder
19:38 The importance of long-term vision and sustaining your results
24:50 How to build self-motivation and lasting habits
36:40 Stage 4 - Bouncing back: Dealing with setbacks and injuries to keep the momentum going
46:20 Stage 5 - CARGO: Celebrate, align, recalibrate, and go for long-term success
52:30 What Allan wished Philip had asked
54:45 Where to find Allan
55:16 Outro

Episode resources:

• 40+ Fitness Podcast

• Instagram: @40plusfitnesspodcast 

• Book - The Wellness Roadmap

• Quiz - Find Your Primary Fitness Mindset

Episode summary:

As we journey through life, the inevitable passage of time often brings new challenges, especially when it comes to maintaining our health and fitness. This episode explores these challenges, offering insights into how individuals over 40 can pursue a healthy and fulfilling lifestyle. This episode features Alan Meisner, the seasoned host of the 40+ Fitness Podcast, who shares his own experiences and wisdom gained from over 600 podcast episodes.

The journey to fitness beyond 40 begins with a personal commitment to change. The episode opens with a compelling story about a life-threatening experience in Malaysia, which served as a catalyst for the host's fitness transformation. Alan Meisner joins the conversation to share his own journey, including a humbling moment on the volleyball court that made him realize the need for a healthier lifestyle. The discussion emphasizes the importance of creating a roadmap for health and longevity, which involves understanding the five key stages of fitness transformation.

Commitment is a recurring theme throughout the episode, as illustrated by the host's decision to improve his health after a scare in Malaysia. This transformative journey was marked by a commitment to self-education and the pursuit of daunting challenges, such as participating in a Tough Mudder event with his daughter. The episode highlights the significance of setting bold goals and the role of self-discovery in driving personal growth and transformation. The journey to fitness after 40 is not just about physical changes but also involves cultivating a mindset of self-love and resilience.

The episode delves into the concept of self-love as a driving force for maintaining independence and vitality in later years. Inspired by a personal story of a grandfather who lost his ability to enjoy golf, the conversation emphasizes the importance of having a vision for a future filled with activities and independence. Self-love is framed as a proactive effort to improve one's health, allowing the body to heal and grow. Overcoming self-doubt and forgiving oneself for past mistakes are key components of this journey, as motivation is earned through intrinsic and extrinsic means.

Navigating setbacks is an inevitable part of the fitness journey, and the episode provides valuable insights into overcoming these challenges. Self-awareness and mindset are crucial for achieving personal goals, and understanding one's current capabilities is essential. The discussion explores the role of accountability, whether through a coach or personal tracking methods, and the importance of aligning actions with clear objectives. By addressing psychological barriers and embracing flexible goals, individuals can add real value to their lives.

The journey of resilience and recovery is exemplified through Alan Meisner's experience with a rotator cuff injury. Despite the setback, Alan remained determined to complete a Spartan race, demonstrating the power of persistence and adaptability. The episode emphasizes the importance of seeking top-notch medical professionals who understand athletic needs, as well as maintaining range of motion and a proactive approach to physical therapy. These elements are crucial for overcoming physical challenges and maintaining progress.

The episode concludes by exploring the concept of tackling challenges and embracing difficult tasks as a pathway to achieving desired results. Building stamina through hard work enables individuals to enjoy activities like hiking and fosters a sense of accomplishment. Alan Meisner's extensive experience, with over 600 podcast episodes, offers valuable guidance on training, nutrition, and psychological aspects of fitness. The episode encourages listeners to explore Alan's resources for fitness, health, and mindset insights, highlighting the virtues of persistence, adaptability, and hard work in maintaining a zest for life at any age.

This episode is a testament to the power of commitment, self-love, and resilience in pursuing health and happiness beyond 40. Through personal stories and expert insights, the episode provides a roadmap for crafting a lifetime of wellness and vitality. Whether you're just beginning your fitness journey or looking to overcome setbacks, this episode offers valuable lessons and inspiration to help you thrive at any age.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're over 40 and have been struggling to get fit despite trying all the diets and workouts, or maybe you haven't yet started your fitness journey and want to reclaim your health, this episode's for you. Today, I'm sitting down with fitness expert Alan Meisner to reveal the five key stages of fitness over 40 that you must go through to transform your health and physique. When you understand these stages, you create a roadmap that clarifies your purpose and your approach to health and physique. When you understand these stages, you create a roadmap that clarifies your purpose and your approach to health and longevity. The best part is that getting this right means you'll actually do less of the ineffective workouts and dieting you've been struggling with, because you'll have a clear path to focus your fitness in midlife and beyond. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:53

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are mapping out the journey to better health and fitness after 40 with Alan Meisner, host of the 40 Plus Fitness Podcast and author of the Wellness Roadmap. Now Alan is a certified personal trainer, nutrition coach and functional aging specialist who's helped thousands navigate the ups and downs of getting fit in midlife and beyond, and he had me on his show recently and I was very excited to sit down with him again today. Today, you're going to learn about the five stages of fitness transformation after 40, from the moment you realize things need to change to finally achieving your goal and then maintaining it for life. Through Alan's experiences and, in my opinion, his masterful storytelling, you'll discover how to make that commitment and build a system that will give you lasting success, no matter where you're starting from. Alan, my man, it is good to see you again and welcome back to the show.

Allan Misner: 1:46

Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape: 1:47

This is exciting and I should say welcome to the show, but welcome back to seeing you again, yeah, so let's just start with the moment that someone realizes things aren't quite working anymore. Maybe they've put on a little weight, maybe they're not as strong, they're feeling tired, they don't have the energy. We all have kids and family and obligations as we get older. What is that catalyst for change that you've seen in most people over 40? We're just going to start there. What is that catalyst for most people?

Allan Misner: 2:18

Well, most of us over 40 are getting to a point in our lives where we're in this kind of weird place in the middle. Our kids are getting old enough that they don't need us as much. So if you're a woman, there's that. If you're a man, it's like, okay, the kids are out and about doing their sports, I might be driving them around, and then eventually now I'm handing them the keys and they're driving themselves around. So again, it's that stage out. And then we also get to see our parents, who are kind of forecasting our future, and so if we're living the same lifestyle they live, that's our future. And they're seeing the illness, they're seeing the things going on there. So for a lot of people, that's the point where they're kind of bridging and figuring this stuff out.

Allan Misner: 3:01

Now, I was in a very weird place when I hit my mid-40s, because I was very successful in my career, but I was not successful at pretty much anything else Relationships, health, fitness, all of it. And so while I had started making the decision that I wanted to change, I went through eight years of just yo-yo. Some people talk about hitting rock bottom. I got drug across rock bottom over eight years. Okay, you got the scrapes to show for it, right, right. And so it started like I was sitting on the beach in Mexico and I had forced myself to take a vacation. I should have been celebrating. I was like I've made it to vice president of a Fortune 500 company at the age of 39. That's the dream, right? Well, so I went down to this timeshare. I literally bought the timeshare, sight unseen, pretty much. I just walked in and said sell me, because I knew if I put the money in, I would start taking that annual vacation. So I'm not going to let that money burn. And so I did.

Allan Misner: 4:01

I forced myself to take a week off, and then I forced myself to sign up to take another week off every year, okay, and so I was kind of on my way a little bit, but it was haphazard and it wasn't controlled. And so the next day I was pretty happy because they had beach volleyball on the schedule. So the week the daily schedule was put up and they had beach volleyball every day. I'm like this is gonna to be so cool, because I used to play competitively when I was younger. Well, I wasn't younger, I was in really bad shape.

Allan Misner: 4:30

So I went out to try to start playing volleyball, and this was not the two-man volleyball that I played a lot, or the four-man that I played some. This was like six on six. So this is take a step bump, take a step bump. Just one game of that had me completely wiped out. And so I'm just I'm sitting there the next morning and I'm like what in the hell happened? You know where did I go? Cause this isn't me. Uh, I'm not someone who dies on a volleyball court at 39 years old. And so I kind of made the decision to change right there. I even had someone take a picture of me with my shirt off, which was insane, and if you go to my website and you look at my About Me page, you see that photo. It's also in the book. But, yeah, I was not very proud of that picture, but I thought that'll be enough to make me change. Of course, it was an all-inclusive resort. Alcohol was already paid for, so, yeah, I commenced to drink my ass off for the whole rest of the week.

Allan Misner: 5:26

I'll start on Monday. You know, yeah, you had the idea, but not quite yet, and so I did try, I did try, I would try this, I would try that, I would look for things. You know what can I do? And there was nothing. There was nothing out there that really told me how to train myself, because everything that was out there was well, you need to do what everybody else does. You're just like everybody else. But I did the Insanity workout, just the benchmark test. I bought the DVD set because it looked cool. Shanti is awesome, it's energy. That's a P90. This was Insanity was also. Yeah, it was Beachbody.

Philip Pape: 5:56

Yeah, yeah, beachbody, this was.

Allan Misner: 5:57

Shanti, and so Shanti was just. You know, he's fit. The reason I didn't go with P90X because I had done that when I was younger was that they did require dumbbells and a pull-up bar. So I was like, okay, I can't do that traveling. So I bought these DVDs, I took the time to diligently rip them all onto my iPad and so here I am. I have all the workouts. I said, okay, I'll sit down and do the benchmark test here, so I know where I am. Okay, so I do the benchmark test and it's very, very motivating. They're dancing around, everybody looks great, they're smiling, they're having fun. I'm not having fun, but I'm doing it.

Allan Misner: 6:31

The next morning I couldn't get out of bed. It was like men had just sat there and beat me with a baseball bat all night. I'm just laying in the bed like, oh my God, it hurt to reach over and grab my phone to call into work, because there was no way I was going to be able to get it to work and do my job. So I didn't do a single one of those workouts again ever. They were still on that iPad when I handed them over to IT.

Allan Misner: 6:56

So there's that first period where you don't really even know what you need. You don't know what's going on and it's easy to tell yourself this isn't a problem. Everybody's overweight, everybody's living like this, everybody's doing this, so I'm just like everybody else, so there's not really a problem. Problem and so not to steal. We're not stealing from the stages of change. If you notice, there's five stages we're going to go through. They do align with the stages of change. I was in pre-contemplation for those eight years. I would try something, maybe, or do this or piddle, but I wasn't really in it.

Philip Pape: 7:32

What's interesting, Alan, is and people can relate to this there sounded to be multiple points that were realizations or wake-up calls that you went through, but then you may have attempted to act on it, maybe not, and even when you did, it wasn't right for you, it wasn't the thing that would work and therefore you didn't stick with it.

Philip Pape: 7:51

And so there are these fleeting realizations that probably happen often right Throughout a year, or even a month, or even a day. We're thinking about this stuff often and then it's like what do we do with it? So, even though it's pre-contemplation, you get to the point of taking action, and the action doesn't even seem to get you what you want if it's not the right action.

Allan Misner: 8:11

Right, right. So I remember this because I read this email I wrote years ago, but I was in Malaysia and when I was getting there it was Ramadan. So Ramadan is a season of fasting. They don't eat during the day, they don't even drink water. It's like for 12 hours. They don't do any of that. And so what I was doing was I said, okay, I'm going to have a good breakfast, I'll have a breakfast with some coffee and I'll have a water in there, but I won't let anybody see it, and then I'll eat a reasonable dinner.

Allan Misner: 8:44

And I did that for the first week. The second week, I'm like, okay, now I'm just going to add some walking. I'll walk for an hour. Well, malaysia is very, very humid, so those are sweaty, sweaty walks, okay. And so I did that the whole second week and I was actually losing weight. I was feeling pretty good going home. I flew home and I got home and I spent the weekend. I kept up with it.

Allan Misner: 9:06

Well, like, on Tuesday morning, I'm sitting at work and I start convulsing and I literally threw up and shat on myself at the same time and hit the ground, and they wanted to call an ambulance. I said no, no, no, let me clean up here and then I'm going to go home, clean up, rest. If I still feel bad, I'll go to the hospital. I did go to the hospital later, after I slept a few hours, but what happened was because I had drank so much water and I'd sweated so much, I was dehydrated and I'd washed out all of my sodium. So I was close to going into a coma, doing what I thought was the right thing Quit alcohol, just drink water, exercise hard. It wasn't hard, it was walking, but for me at the time it was hard. An hour of walking and sweating and boom, here I am laying down on the floor, convulsing, almost going into a coma. And so it was that thing of not knowing what I didn't know, thinking I can just do what I've always done, and it didn't work. So you know, for me the next stage started.

Allan Misner: 10:16

I happened to also be in Malaysia, which is interesting. I traveled there a lot, though at that time in my life. So my daughter and I got on a phone call and she said to me, because she was getting into CrossFit and she had just become a level one CrossFit coach. And so she says to me daddy, would you come watch me do a CrossFit competition and I'm like I just felt this pit in my stomach. I'm like I'm not supposed to be a spectator in my daughter's life. I'm supposed to be a participant, I'm supposed to be there with her doing it. Well, I did go watch her. I'm not that bad. I did go watch the competition.

Allan Misner: 10:53

But that was the moment where there was like a click in my head and I'm like, okay, this is a problem, this is hard, it's really hard, but it's not so hard that I shouldn't be able to do it. So what is different between all the hard things I did? You don't make it to the C-suite age of 39, a fortune 500 company without doing some hard things. You don't do what I did in the military without being able to do some hard things. So I was like what makes this different? And that's when the word hit my head. It was like commitment. For For all those other things that I did, I committed to do it and I became fanatical, obsessed with doing it and doing it right. So I knew that's what I needed to do here.

Allan Misner: 11:38

The problem was I was traveling so much that I couldn't hire a coach, a personal trainer, and there was no one doing this online. There were no books, there were no podcasts, there was no nothing. And so I was like, okay, well, I've got to figure this out. So I'm like I guess I have to become my own personal trainer. So I went for the certs you know NASM I got my corrective exercise, fitness, nutrition, the functional aging specialty, all these other things I started doing. And then I started figuring out what I had done wrong all those other times. And so now I had a plan, and now I was starting to train the right way, I was starting to eat the right way and I was able to start making change. But there was still just one piece missing.

Allan Misner: 12:29

And this was when I realized I tend to at that point in my life, I tend to not move unless I have something scary to do, something that's going to force me to really push. And now that I've done this and I've worked with thousands of people, I've come to realize there's five of these mindsets, and I had actually worked through a few of them on the way up. But what I am now, or what I needed was then, was I was an Atlas. Now an Atlas, uh, in my vernacular is the is the book, you know the map book that we used to have when we were younger, not the God holding the earth. But I went out and I said, okay, I need something big and scary. I went out and I said, okay, I need something big and scary, a big goal like something big. So I called up my daughter and I said, hey, how about the two of us sign up for a Tough Mudder eight months from now? I had no business signing up for a Tough.

Philip Pape: 13:22

Mudder.

Allan Misner: 13:23

The 13-mile run in very hard terrain to do anything to move through. And then they're just going to throw in 25 obstacles just to make it fun With penalties too, right? Well, they didn't have the penalties. That's the Spartan. Spartan does the penalties.

Philip Pape: 13:38

Oh, that's Spartan right With the burpee penalties yeah.

Allan Misner: 13:41

That's Joe, but no, so here's the deal. I realize, okay, I have a level one CrossFit coach daughter and I have this thing I want to do and I don't want to just do it. I don't want to go on there and her have to stay back with me or for me to say, go on without me, I'll finish. That just wasn't the personality. I was like, okay, look, I'm going to participate with her on this thing at her speed, she's not going to have to slow down for me. And that's what I did. I started training a lot harder, started pushing myself and over the course of eight months well, really, 11 months total I lost 66 pounds of fat and I gained 11 pounds of muscle, dexascan to Dexascan Awesome At the age of 46.

Philip Pape: 14:28

And that's what we're here for.

Philip Pape: 14:29

So people, are okay, now people are hearing this. Let's rewind just a little bit. You mentioned the word scary and I know in your book you said that your vision isn't necessarily the highest pinnacle you could reach or the most difficult goal you can imagine. It's the precise image of what you want. Your vision should scare you slightly, but you know that's where you belong in your heart. And so when is your vision not scary enough? Because that's what you just said it's like it's got to be scary. When is it not scary enough?

Allan Misner: 14:55

Well, yeah, I mean, some of it doesn't have to be. So one of the ways I kind of talk about it now a lot is I say, okay, what do you need and what do you want? Okay, I live on a Caribbean island and there's not really an ambulance service that you can rely on. So if my daughter, my wife, were to fall and hurt herself or to have some kind of medical emergency and she's laying on the floor and I have to get her to the hospital I suppose about two miles away I've got to be able to pick her up and get her into the car and drive her there. So I need to be physically strong to be able to lift my wife and do that.

Allan Misner: 15:39

I live on an island. I don't actually have a driver's license, so I'd be violating the law in Panama by driving her there, but it's an emergency. I'm going to break the law Sorry, panama, but gonna but I don't have a driver's license because I live on an island. From one side of the island to the other is no more than 14 miles, so I can walk anywhere on this island I want to be, and so I need to be in the physical shape to walk where I want to go. If I'm out with my wife and she says, hey, we're going to stay or we're going to go to this other place, it's like no problem, I'll walk home, I can do that from anywhere on this island. Okay, so I need that.

Allan Misner: 16:18

But what do I want? Well, I want to have an active lifestyle like kayaking. I kind of wish we had tennis courts here. We don't, but at some point we might move somewhere. I want to be able to just step in and start playing that. When I travel back to Puerto Vallarta, which I do about once a year, I play volleyball. I want to be able to play volleyball. So my vision right now, at 58 years old, is to be a very active 58-year-old. Now our daughters got married about two years ago, both of them six months apart. Congrats, okay.

Philip Pape: 16:55

So there's going to be grandkids, and good luck.

Allan Misner: 16:58

There are going to be grandkids and I can tell you the same mindset that I had with my daughter I am not going to be a spectator in their lives. So babies and kids crawl and run around on the floor. They sit on the floor and they watch television. They, when they go to the zoo, they lose their freaking minds and they're running everywhere. I want to be the grandpa that can do that. And then, when they're older, I don't know what crazy stuff they're going to be doing. But you know we didn't have Tough Mudder growing up. You know we had our stuff, but it wasn't that. And so I don't know what they're going to be doing 20 years from now. But guess what? I'm going to want to be the person doing it. So I'll be that crazy 80 year old doing this thing. Like, what are you doing? I'm like having fun with my grandkids, that's what I'm doing. So that's what I want. Now I'll tell you this other story. We might not make it through your whole five stages, but okay. So here's the next story.

Allan Misner: 17:59

My grandfather loved golf. He loved golf more than people. He was a salesman which, back in that day, you went golfing with potential buyers, to make deals. So he golfed practically every day of his life. He lived on a golf course. He loved golf. At the age of 80, he had to give up playing golf because his balance wasn't there, his strength wasn't there. He could not swing a golf club anymore. Now a lot of people say, oh well, he's 80. Okay, last few years he lived till he was 95. So the last 15 years of his life he didn't get to do the one thing he loved most. I don't want that. I don't think anyone wants that, and so if I can fix it, I won't. Now I'll flash forward 10 years. He can't make it from the chair to the bathroom in time when he realizes he has to go and so he has to call down to the care desk because he's in this. You know homes, he's all these little one bedroom houses, apartments. He can't make it down there, so they send someone up to clean him up because he can't even clean himself up.

Allan Misner: 19:04

I want to be able to wipe my own butt when I'm 105. Okay, so I need to be able to wipe my own butt when I'm 105. Okay, so I need to be able to wipe my own butt when I'm 105. I need to be able to open my own jars. If I want a pickle, I'm eating a pickle. If you can't open the jar and you want a pickle, you ain't eating the pickle. You get someone to help you and now you're no longer independent, you're dependent on tools and other people and you're in this decline and I don't want that. I don't and I don't need that.

Allan Misner: 19:33

So when I look at vision, is it scary? Well, my side of the vision is not scary at all. I'm wiping my butt, I'm playing with my grandkids, I'm doing any sport that I want to do my entire life, because I build the foundation and I'm going to keep building on the foundation to be able to do it. And so, as you start looking at vision, the value of vision is it helps you forecast your future and the fact that the human body, the most wonderful gift you've ever been given, is your body. It's a machine that you live in that can repair itself and get better. If you do the right things, it heals itself and it gets better. That's crazy good, isn't it? That's amazing.

Philip Pape: 20:19

It is amazing, and it is amazing, and I want everyone to experience how amazing that is, especially at this age, when they don't think it might be possible. Right, that's what we're unlocking here. If you've got one more breath.

Allan Misner: 20:30

If you've got one more breath, you could do something to improve yourself. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 20:34

So maybe to keep us on track with the phases, but naturally segue into the next one. Somebody's saying, okay, this is great, I could do something like I can get a piece of paper and write all the things I need, all the things I want. That's a great starting point, catalyst, for you know, I have some wake-up call that's driving me. Now I'm going to solidify what that really looks like, my future self. But now I have this doubt, I have this self-doubt. I'm critical of myself, I'm not sure of my capabilities. I don't even know if the body can do what you're saying, Alan. And so one of the things you talk about is self-love, and that's one way to empower us. You could take it however you want, but what is the first step toward that next step right? Either embracing the self-love or getting that power to become unstoppable. Know that you can do this before you even take that step.

Allan Misner: 21:20

Yeah Well, anything you do to improve your body is an act of self-love. And so when you define it that way and you're like, okay, I've got this guy in my head, you can bleep me if you need to bleep me. So just fair warning, I called the voice in my head the fat bastard. Okay, that's that guy. He's miserable and he's terrible, and if I screw up he's all over me.

Philip Pape: 21:43

Does he have Mike Myers' voice? Is it that fat bastard? No, no, no, not that one.

Allan Misner: 21:48

No, but he's an evil dude, this bastard, no, no, no, not that one, no, but he's, he's, he's, he's an evil. This was even before that, I think. But this is an evil dude. And so if I let him own the frame of the dialogue, I lose. And so I have to realize if I make a mistake, I have to start with forgiveness. Okay, if I forgive myself, I'm a human being. I shouldn't have done that. I did. I can't undo it, but I can learn from it. And so if I go at it and say, okay, I want to show myself self-love, I'm going to forgive myself because I'm not perfect, haven't met anybody who is. I've heard there was one, but I didn't meet him that way. So you know, you start that way and then you learn from what you've done.

Allan Misner: 22:33

Now, one of the key aspects of this where I think people get lost is they think that they don't have what they need. You know, it's like I don't have willpower, I'm not disciplined, and that's not how all this works. So motivation is not magic fairy dust that shows up and that you hope sticks around. Hope doesn't get you very far, and motivation is not received. It's earned.

Allan Misner: 23:01

And so let me explain how this works, and it's pretty simple, but there's two types of motivation. There's the intrinsic type, which is internal, and there's extrinsic, which is outward, to someone else. So the extrinsic is based on accountability, and so the easiest. And there's two layers there's a leader layer and then there's a social layer. So the easiest way to get motivated is to hire a coach. You're going to show up for that coach. You share your goals, they help you with your programs, and they're there. You show up for that coach. You share your goals, they help you with your programs, and they're there. You show up. That accountability gets you motivated. I don't want to be there at five o'clock in the morning, but I told Dave I'd be there at five o'clock in the morning.

Allan Misner: 23:40

I'm there at five o'clock in the morning. Okay, that's accountability which creates motivation. And then maybe I joined some groups so I get in a running group or I do the spin class or water aerobics class or any other kind of group that's going to help me stay accountable. They say peer pressure and people think peer pressure is a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if you have bad peers. If you surround yourself with good people, like Jim Rohn told us, we become good people. Okay, so find a group and get accountability from them. If you want to do CrossFit, as an example, I was in the five o'clock CrossFit class. We same people, we were the five o'clockers and it was the same people that show up.

Allan Misner: 24:22

They show up every day, for most days, and you just all know you're all there and you see them, hi, how are you doing? And now they expect you there. If you're not there, they might even call you hey, dude, you okay, what's going on? Okay, that's accountability at a social level. Now, that only goes so far, because you get a workout partner and the workout partner breaks his arm doing something stupid. He's not going anymore. Are you going to stop? And for a lot of people, if you only rely on accountability, you probably will.

Allan Misner: 24:52

So what we want to do is we want to focus on the intrinsic. Now, the intrinsic is really cool because that is about self-efficacy, and self-efficacy is hugely powerful. So there's two layers for this as well the leader and the social. The leader level is basically self-management, where you become the CEO of your body and you start making decisions on what you're going to do and what you're not going to do, and then what we do in business and which you know from engineers if something's not working, I've got to fix that process. So I have a failure. I want to fix it. So we put friction in to stop things that we don't want to happen and we take friction away to make the things that we do want to happen easier.

Carol: 25:37

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Allan Misner: 26:18

So we build these frictionless and frictioned areas to kind of wall us in and make it easier and easier to do the things we want to do. Here's one example for me. So I wanted to work out. Two o'clock in the afternoon was the best time to go to a gym, so I knew that. So I told my boss I'm going to work, work out from two to three. That's going to be my lunch hour. I'm going to block it out of my calendar. I'm going to do this thing. Obviously, if you need me I'll be here. But I'm going to go work out Now what I needed, and so I would forget a shirt, pair of shorts, socks.

Allan Misner: 26:54

But one day I forgot one shoe, and I don't even know how you do that. I still, to this day, cannot tell you why there was only one shoe in that bag. I do not know. But I just knew this is something I have to fix as the manager or CEO of my own health and fitness. I want to do this. I had signed up for a Tough Mudder, I had to do this. I said, okay, what do I need? I said, well, I got to do stupid checklists. That's what we do. So I made a checklist, everything that was supposed to be in the bag. I laminated it and every evening, when I was brushing my teeth, set the bag out, pull the list out one by one, from the top to the bottom. Everything is in the bag. The list went in the bag. I put the bag right by the door so I would have to either jump over or trip over to go to work in the morning.

Philip Pape: 27:40

Yeah, we would call that mistake proofing right, mistake proofing the process.

Allan Misner: 27:43

Exactly so. It was looking at the process and say how can I make this easier? Because I would use that bag, especially the one shoe day bag, to not do the workout and I'm like I can't keep doing this. And so over time, you're doing this as self-manager, making it easier, you're developing habits and you're developing values. So now, at the social level, you now begin to identify as that person, that healthier, more fit person.

Allan Misner: 28:18

The easiest example I can give you is okay, so someone says I'm going to start a walking program. So they start walking, they're walking and maybe initially 15, 20 minutes, they up it to 30, maybe 45. Then they start throwing in little jogs and then eventually they say hey, and they get a friend and they all sign up for a 5k. And now they're buying shoes. And they're buying, hey, and they get a friend and they all sign up for a 5k. And now they're buying shoes and they're buying water bottles and they consider themselves a runner. They now identify as a runner. And so at five o'clock in the morning, when the alarm goes off, what are runners? Do they run? It's an automatic. They don't even think about not running. In fact, if they got injured and can't run or the weather was too inclement and they can't run, they feel bad, they'd be frustrated, yeah Right.

Allan Misner: 29:02

So that identity of identifying as a person who's fit you've now come full circle. You have unlimited motivation and the person that does the best with this has their feet in all four of them. So you have a coach that's helping you get better at things you want to get better at. You have people around you that are right peers, so the peer pressure is positive and pushing you. You are doing the self-management, so you're making things easier and better.

Allan Misner: 29:29

I get on a plane, I'm going to fly somewhere. I go and research gems near my hotel. I go and pre-look at menus at all the different local restaurants to figure out what foods, where's the best place for me to have dinner, what does the gym at the hotel look like? And if that's not good enough, is there another gym that I can get a day pass for? So a little bit of research, and so you're doing that and then, yeah, you identify as someone. That's who I am, this is what I do, this is how I live. So you have unlimited motivation. It's not something you find, it's something you learn.

Philip Pape: 30:03

Yeah, and I love that mental model with the grid, cause I'm thinking I'm sure you have something that you know.

Allan Misner: 30:07

I absolutely do.

Philip Pape: 30:09

I'll, I'll send it to you, Okay, Is it? Is it kind of self-accountability, CEO of your own body? And the other is relatedness, which ties into the social layer but also the individual identity. There's a lot of cross-correlation here with Well it all is.

Allan Misner: 30:38

The thing is well, you know, psychology, engineering, accounting, they're all systems, and the human body is a system, you know.

Philip Pape: 30:47

Yeah, no. So speaking of that, then it's true, Systems. I heard somebody talking about how they didn't like the word habits because you're creating a system and I'm like, well, that's semantics, but you do talk about this quite a bit. I know in your book you say that it's kind of a lagging indicator right Of maybe all these accountability factors that come first. Does that mean that we put the cart before the horse when we think of habits, kind of in a vacuum, rather than the commitments that lead to what you just talked about, leading to the habits?

Allan Misner: 31:17

Right. So what we're going to do is we're going to go on a particular diet. We need to lose weight. Okay, I'm going to do this diet. Well, you're putting the strategy and the tactics ahead of the brain. Okay, you have to have the commitment first. You have to do some self-awareness first to know okay, am I someone who's going to hurt myself because I'm looking in the rear view mirror and seeing the 29-year-old me that could pretty much do anything. I could tackle a freaking car if I wanted to and not get hurt. Or the guy I am today who will definitely get hurt if I get hit by someone on a trike, if I get hit by someone on a trike. So you have to start working through the mindset stuff of understanding what am I? What do I need? So I, like I said, I have the five mindsets. You can go to 40plusfitnesscom forward slash quiz and that'll tell you your primary one. But I worked through all five of these. I was looking in the rear view mirror at who I was, rather than realizing where I'm sitting and where I needed to go.

Allan Misner: 32:16

There were points in time when I just didn't get enough traction and I wasn't doing it consistently enough to see or feel anything, and so I would just fall off. It'd be like Monday through Friday I'd do great, and then Friday night I would mess up. And then that rolled a Saturday, sunday, and I might start back on Monday, or three weeks Monday, or four months Monday, and so I needed traction, I needed to see it. So I needed gamification of okay, I need to mark something down every time I do this so that I want to run that streak. I want to see more of this. So I was a tires person and then I was a co-pilot early on, and what I mean by that is everybody else's obligations and needs went above my own. The job was first If I had to work a 16-hour day and I didn't get my workout in, that's good. I put in a 16-hour day, but I didn't get my workout in, and I'm sitting at the hotel bar eating my dinner, drinking some beers, because it just didn't feel like doing anything else, but go in, get myself sedated and go to bed, start it over and do it again tomorrow. So you have to do some self-awareness to know what you need to do, and a coach can help you do that, particularly if they're the right kind of coach. But they're going to hold you accountable, they're going to get you moving.

Allan Misner: 33:33

And then that's when you can start figuring some of this stuff out. Do you need to have a list that you pack your bag the night before? Do you need to avoid trying to do too much at one time? Do you need to see your consistency on a map? Do you need to convince yourself that three weeks is not enough time to know that something works? So you start a diet. Three weeks later it's like well, I've only lost two pounds and I actually gained about us three, but I gained one back. So this doesn't work. Quit, put the brakes on, go do something else. Like you're never going to get anywhere.

Allan Misner: 34:07

So you have to at least understand what your tendencies are. And then you meet the fat bastard, or whatever name you want to call your bad boys, and you start saying I need to show self-love, I need to be kind to myself. I need to realize when I'm using those words that I would never say to another human being, never in a million years. If a friend came to me and says, hey, even an enemy came to me and said, hey, I want you to hold me accountable, I would not use the words that my internal voice uses when I screw up, when they screw up, I mean because I would never talk to another human being that way, but he does. He does if I let him. So it's understanding all the psychology and mindset and motivation stuff and getting that all in place and then the strategies and tactics begin to make sense and add value to your life.

Allan Misner: 34:59

So there is a cart before the horse. You have to have a destination before you start driving. Okay, it doesn't have to be a clear destination because I don't have to have the GPS totally loaded, but I do know I have to get out of the parking lot before I can go somewhere else. So I could start driving out of the parking lot before I really know where I'm going. But after that I need to know am I turning right or turning left? I got to have directions before I get on the road and we don't do that. We just say, okay, well, just keep going left.

Philip Pape: 35:28

Right, yeah, so I like how all of these interplay, because what did you just say? Yeah, the direction and the plan, kind of in parallel with the accountability. That helps you gain the confidence that this thing's actually working. And it made me think of in engineering you'll have um, there's a particular guy I'm thinking of. He was an amazing electrical designer, you know could design anything and the joke was that he will design the perfect system to the wrong requirements. You know, if you give him the wrong requirement, that's what he'll design. He'll design the perfect system to the wrong requirements. If you give him the wrong requirement, that's what he'll design. He'll design it perfectly to those requirements.

Philip Pape: 36:02

So there is a sense of upfront having the. If you have a coach, for example, yes, they're going to help you with the nuts and bolts and the direction and they'll help you with all the psychology and the accountability along the way. And there's degrees of this. Right, Alan, Just listening to a podcast like yours will be a great first start, because you're a coach in their ears You're not necessarily somebody you hired, but you're the person giving that sense of wisdom and direction.

Allan Misner: 36:25

But I will say this information is only valuable if you act on it. For sure, For sure. How many technical manuals have ever been written and never read?

Philip Pape: 36:36

Yeah, there's a lot of content binging without the action to go with it. All right. So we've got the realization. Then we have, we have the wake up call. Then we kind of have facing the challenges of starting over. At this age we have the beginnings of commitment leading to the development of system and having accountability. Then we get to the point where maybe things are rolling a bit and we have some momentum, and now we have some sort of setback or life gets in the way, as if life just doesn't always exist right, as if it's supposed to be smooth sailing. But injuries, especially at this age, work stress, family obligations, interruptions to your sleep, you've got kids all of these things are inevitable. So maybe tell us a story about how do we deal with that, because that's super common.

Allan Misner: 37:20

It is, it is, and so there's two stories I like to tell. Okay, so I'll tell the base story that I use and I put this in the book. So you imagine you're driving down the highway and you're on a road trip, you know where you're going, and then you see this sign and it's the world's largest carved beaver. Next exit Got to stop. Right. Of course, I got to see this thing. So instead of going in and having a plan, you just go off the highway. And then you see the next sign Albino alligators, one mile down the road. Well, crap, we got to go see the albino alligators, right. And then you get down there and across the street, is this wonderful, you know best ice cream in all of the Northeast. So now you got to go across the street and have the best ice cream in all the Northeast. And now you've been off the highway for well over an hour and a half when all you intended to do was just see that damn Bieber.

Allan Misner: 38:15

Okay, so we're going to have detours, we're going to go off path. Now, sometimes they're important. So if my buddy called me up and said hey, alan, I'm going through a tough patch right now and can we just sit down and have a few beers and talk. Guess what I'm going to do. Even if I'm training for something, even if I want to cut weight, I'm going to go have a couple beers with my friends. Now I'm going to buy the best quality beer that bar sells. I'm not going to do crap. I'm going to get a good IPA, good beer. Okay, I know a lot of people don't agree with IPA, but I love IPA.

Philip Pape: 38:47

There are two camps. It's okay. You're allowed to have. You're allowed to like inferior beer, it's all right.

Allan Misner: 38:53

Anyway, but I'm going to go have beers with my friend, and so that's not a necessarily planned detour, but I can have a plan of how I'm going to do it. It's like, okay, I'm going to have a beer, and then I'm going to have a water, and then I'll have a beer and then I'll have a water. Okay, so that's the plan. And then tomorrow I, just when I first get up, make sure the first thing I do is drink water. Okay, not going for the coffee, because I'm up a little later and I'm going to want the coffee. Have the water first, water before coffee, so I'm good and hydrated, and then I can go to the gym and do what I got to do.

Allan Misner: 39:29

Okay, I don't have to skip that workout if I manage my hydration. Okay, I might be a little tired because I didn't get enough sleep, but I'm going to make it work. Okay, that's the plan off, plan on. So if I went in and said, okay, there's the wooden beaver, what we're going to do is go, we're going to stop, we'll get the selfie, and then we're going to go into the bathroom, I'm going to fill up with gas and we'll get right back on the highway, that would have been a successful detour.

Philip Pape: 39:48

Instead of just letting it carry you along.

Allan Misner: 39:51

Letting. Yeah, I screwed up, I'm off, I'm out, so having a plan going out and a plan coming back in. And so I was 51 and I was getting ready to do a Spartan. I'd signed up with a Spartan because I wanted my brother to do it with me. I have brothers. My youngest brother is 25 years younger than me, but this brother was like 13 years younger than me. So at the time I'm 51, he's in his late thirties, and so I'm like we're going to do, well, let's do this Spartan, and that is the one with the penalties, the penalty burpees, and so we're going to do it. And then it turned out that his daughter was having a recital that weekend, so he wasn't going to go. So I'm like, okay, I'm doing it by myself. But I was training for that.

Allan Misner: 40:34

I hired a coach. Yes, coaches should hire coaches. I wanted to get strong. So I had a strength coach and Dave was a really good strength coach. This had nothing to do with him.

Allan Misner: 40:44

I was trying to do dumbbell, overhead presses, military press seated, and I was stupid about how I got the weights up and I really didn't need to be pressing 80s, but I was, because Dave's a really good strength coach. I got really freaking strong and I tore a rotator cuff and I knew when I did I'm like, okay, that's like tore off the bone or that's not even connected anymore. I knew it and so I told him. I said, okay, dave workout's over. And he's like what happened? I said I think I just tore my, I tore my rotator cuff. He's like, oh, oh, no, man, I'm like, okay, no problem. No problem, I'll see you on Thursday. He was like what I said? Well, I won't be able to do presses, but I could probably do everything else because I was still going to do the Spartan. I'm an. That was the push. You know, I'm gonna do the spartan. You got one more arm and you got two legs. I got the other arm and I can't tear it again. Yeah, it's true, I feel you man, okay now. Uh, it still hurt a lot, but I kept training and the training itself.

Allan Misner: 41:51

We didn't do any presses. We tried a couple different things like using the sm Smith machine and changing angles and doing declines. None of it really worked. And so I went and did the Tough Mudder and then I went in and saw the surgeon and I told the surgeon I said I tore my rotator cuff. He says how do you know? I said I know. And he says well, let's take an x-ray. I took the x-ray. He says yeah, it looks like you did tear it. And then he did a couple of strength moves, you know. He put your arm up. He said push, push, pull. He said yeah, it's pretty much tore. I said yeah, pretty much tore. He said they, you know, the insurance companies want to send you to PT. I said that's not going to do any good. He said that won't do any good. He said I'm going to ask like okay, he put it in, they got me to do the MRI. It was yeah, I was shredded, it was gone. And so he's like okay, we're going to go in for surgery.

Allan Misner: 42:46

I went in for surgery on Thursday. I was out and in PT on Monday. So I walk into PT on Monday and the PT guy's like well, when did, how long ago did you have the surgery? I'm like Thursday. He's like you're already here. I'm like yeah, this is, this is my on-ramp. Okay, it's time to recover.

Allan Misner: 42:59

The detour was the surgery and now I've got to get right back on the highway. So that was my plan. I was going to do the tough. I'm just going to do the Spartan, because I was dedicated to do the Spartan and I did it and it hurt like hell and I got it done. And then I'm like, okay, now I get the surgery and I'm on ramp and every bit of homework he gave me I did. I understood why I was doing everything, everything I was supposed to. I literally was probably his best client because I could just I just walk in and say same workout as last time. He said, well, I want to add one exercise and he'd show me how to do the exercise. And boom, I just do the whole workout by myself. Okay, he put the ice cuff on to cut the, to basically bring down information after the workout. But I did all the workouts myself. I got all my but.

Allan Misner: 43:44

But the core thing was, because I had done all the training all the way up until the surgery, I never really lost much range of motion. So they lay you in there and they start measuring range of motion. He's like, he's like I know you're in your 50s, but you've got the range of motion at this point that I've never even seen in athletes. What did you do? I said I just kept training. I couldn't do any presses, but I could do pulls, and so my arm is. You know, I just grab hold of the bar for lat, pull downs and sit down and it stretched my arm and then I could pull. So my arms never didn't go through the full range of motion. I never put myself in any kind of sling to avoid the pain because I knew it was already tore. I couldn't tear it again.

Allan Misner: 44:30

So I did all these things knowing that that's my plan during this detour, and then my on-ramp is to get my PT done as quickly as I possibly could. I got through because my range of motion was back to about 100% within three weeks. He's like I don't even know if we can start strength training now, right now, because I've never put anybody strength training in just three and a half weeks. So let me talk to your surgeon. Surgeon says well, alan thinks he can do it. He can do it, do it. You know and that was the other thing If you get hurt, get the best, get the best PT, get the best surgeon. Look for someone who works with athletes. Yes, and don't just tell them I want you to fix me and make me stop hurting. Tell them you want to be back to performance of where you were before, and a good surgeon and a good PT will get you there.

Philip Pape: 45:22

Yeah, I can relate to all of that because I also had rotator cuff surgery last year and I have my deadlift. Harness was one of the fun toys early on. I'm like I got a deadlift, but it wasn't there with two arms quite yet. So let's get creative. I think the point here that you're saying is these things are always inevitable. They're probably quite yet. So let's, let's get creative. I think the point here that you're saying is things, these things are always inevitable. They're probably more inevitable as we age. And there's something you can do. There is something you can do. Don't make, don't make excuses for yourself, and it's not like a yeah, just get out there and just be reckless. It's figure out a way around it to move forward. I do like that specific advice about finding PTs, doctors, trainers, all who understand lifting and athletes. It makes a massive difference. They'll be aggressive when they need to be and they'll also understand why you do what you do, because the other guys just don't have a clue.

Allan Misner: 46:08

These are guys that did the division. One football team in town, they get it, they get it. And so when I walked in and said, no, I performance, I don't care about pain, I care about performance, they're like okay.

Philip Pape: 46:20

Yeah, so all right. So full circle back to the. I guess we're we're kind of in the last stage here.

Philip Pape: 46:25

I don't know, we'll see how the show notes tie up with all these, uh, what we're saying here but you know some is someone has gone through this process. At this point they're definitely getting results of some kind, both physical, mental and then deeper results. I'm sure that surprised them along the way they get to this point. Maybe it is a fat loss phase, maybe it's something more than that, maybe it's performance related. People always ask how do I maintain that? Now? That mentality probably comes from the quick fix weight loss of like you lose your weight, you gain it, you lose your weight. We're not doing it that way and I would argue that it's almost easier to maintain something when you've done it this way. But tell us, how do we reground ourselves? Maybe have a new goal, have a new kind of thing that pushes us to the next level?

Allan Misner: 47:07

So yeah, that was one thing about my book that I wanted to make sure I got into, because so many people think, well, yay, race is over, go back to eating fat food and then you'll end up having to do this whole thing all over again, or maybe. So what I did? I called it CARGO. Okay, so it's an acronym and the C means celebrate. You should be very proud of yourself for doing this, because so many people don't. If it's weight loss, I want you to think about one billion people on this planet are obese. I saw that stat the other day. Dr Lahnke's book and it was like that just floored me and then I realized how right it was. I mean, just even in the United States, there's over 100 million obese people. That's insane, but it's getting worse.

Allan Misner: 47:54

So you've done something that a small fraction of people like you're in rare air. You're a very special individual if you've lost a substantial amount of weight, because most people don't, and most people don't keep it off. But go ahead and celebrate Now. This is not celebrate with a jelly donut or cake or a bunch of alcohol. This is celebrate yourself. Or a bunch of alcohol. This is celebrate yourself. You've shown yourself this much self-love and you're at this point because you did something important. You did hard things and you should be very proud.

Allan Misner: 48:28

Now, after that, you need to realign yourself. So the A is about alignment, and what you're going to realize is that you feel different. You are a different person. This change that you went through was not just a physical change. It changed who you are as a human, and other people are looking at you differently. You may even have a whole different new set of friends that you didn't have before. Okay. So just recognize that you will be treated differently based on where you are, and you have to accept that. Okay, the next is to sit down and recalibrate your GPS. Where, where did you? Where do you want to go next? A lot of times, people will climb out of a hole. I was in this hole.

Allan Misner: 49:14

I was over 60 pounds overweight and I climbed out of the hole and I could have just stayed there. But there's this mountain in front of me that I can also climb. So we go from dealing with a problem or despair to aspiration. So what do you really want? You know you could lose 30, 40 pounds, but what do you really want? Well, I want to wear the jeans that I wore in college. You still have those old things. Yeah, pull them out. Pull them out and get ready. That's your new thing. I'm going to be wearing these jeans by February. Tell yourself that, set that as the standard. That's your new vision. Okay, I'll be wearing the same size jeans when I go to my class reunion next year. I'll be wearing the same size jeans I was wearing in high school. Okay, set the goal, set the aspiration. Okay.

Allan Misner: 50:04

So you recalibrate your GPS. I'm like, okay, I feel good at 205, but I'll be optimal at 185. That's where I want to go. And then go. That G-O is go, go, do it.

Allan Misner: 50:17

And this is a cycle that you'll just roll over and over and over. So, if you look at, what we emulated here is the cycle of change we went from pre-contemplation. I didn't really know, I had a problem. I was okay with it, I was accepting it To recognizing I have a problem in contemplation, to determination or preparation, which depending on which one you look at. But basically this is where you make the decision, where you really commit to doing something. Then you have action, then you have maintenance and then it's a cycle. Now, the cycle doesn't always have to go in a positive direction, but if you do this right, you just keep cycling through.

Allan Misner: 50:56

Okay, I want to get the fastest speed for over 80 in the a hundred yard dash. I want to continue to play tennis and beat the kids when I'm 80. I want to be doing whatever crazy thing my grandkids are doing when I'm 80. So you kind of get the idea that this is just these cycles of your life. As you go through, we age and we don't want to follow the curve, the way the curve is taking us. We see where that curve takes us. It's illness, it's chronic, it's horrible and we lose our independence along the way. I don't want that. So it's a loop. I don't have to do another Tough Mudder, so that's not my loop anymore. I have to carry five-gallon bottles of water all over this place.

Philip Pape: 51:49

That's what I have to do fun and I think it opens up more options. When you have all these loops, you may you may have the setbacks, like the surgery, but it just you know, you have the confidence from your past cycles of this that you can then go for something else. So, yeah, I love that recalibrating, not not only climbing out of a hole. You've done that.

Allan Misner: 52:09

Now it's just the sky's the limit, I mean no-transcript pieces of advice that I think are kind of wrong. And one is just start, and I used to think that was right, but now I know, just think Really, get your head straight first, because if you just act and you just do the thing, you won't stick to it because you haven't built, you haven't made it easy enough. So fix your plan, have a plan and execute on the plan. In that order Okay. And then the other one that people like to do is just for exercise, just do something you enjoy. And I think that's a bad one too, because if you, you know, I I enjoy laying in a bathtub, but that's about as strenuous as I would want to get if I just did something.

Philip Pape: 53:22

I'm so glad you said that, because that ties with the doing hard things. I'm so glad you said that. Nobody likes back squats when they start, but when you get good at it, you start to.

Allan Misner: 53:31

I want to. If I want to be able to wipe my own butt when I'm 105, I'm going to have to be able to do squats. I'm going to have to have the dexterity to twist and do the paperwork, and then I'm going to have to have the speed and agility to be able to get up from where I am and make it in there in time. So there are fitness aspects of everything we do in our lives. Train to be that person. Be fit for task, and if the task is making it to the bathroom and wiping your own butt, that's the task. Train for it so you can keep doing it.

Philip Pape: 54:03

Yeah, and I think a good physical analogy is when you go to the gym and do a set, you're always doing something harder than last time. It's never going to be easier, but that gives you the results. So I mean a good analogy for that. All right, I love that. So just start is should be really just think, you know, come up with a plan, fix it, go after it and then just doing something you enjoy should be. You know, choose hard things, do hard things and maybe you'll enjoy them, maybe not, it doesn't matter. Almost it's going to give you the result, but you'll enjoy the things you do enjoy.

Allan Misner: 54:30

Like you like hiking and you build stamina on an elliptical machine because it's six feet of snow outside when a season comes around, you're going to have the stamina to do the hiking you want to do. So you do hard things, so you can do wonderful things.

Philip Pape: 54:46

That's great, Alan. Where do you want listeners to find you?

Allan Misner: 54:49

Okay, well, the 40 Plus Fitness Podcast is available. Wherever you're listening to podcasts, including here where you're listening to wits and weights and I have the website 40plusfitnesscom. That's 40plusfitnesscom, and all my stuff's there. You can links to the book, links to the podcast, link to everything I do Love to hear from you. So come out there and say hi, and I hope you get fit and healthy and enjoy your life.

Philip Pape: 55:17

Awesome. I'll include those in the show notes. Everybody here go follow 40 Plus Fitness Podcast, because he gets into all the details, the nitty gritty, all the training and nutrition stuff, as well as mindset psychology we talked about here, and he's going on 600, well over 600 episodes, so you guys will love that. Thanks again, alan, for coming on. It was a lot of fun to do the back and forth with you. Appreciate your time.

Allan Misner: 55:37

Yeah, thank you, philip.

Why Bodybuilders and Marathon Runners Train SO Differently (Critical Path Method) | Ep 228

Are you training for the wrong outcome?

Are you working hard, going to the gym, but things aren't quite lining up for your physique and body composition goals?

Imagine a fitness plan where every effort counts, and nothing is wasted. 

Learn how the Critical Path Method (CPM) explains why bodybuilders and marathon runners have such contrasting approaches and how you can determine where on that spectrum YOUR goals are so you can save time and be more efficient with your fitness.

Discover:

• How to identify your fitness "critical path"

• Why doing less can often lead to better results

• How to eliminate time-wasting exercises from your routine

• The power of laser-focusing on what truly matters for your goals

Whether you're aiming to build muscle, lose fat, or improve endurance, this episode will help you optimize your training for maximum results with minimum wasted effort.

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes. 

Main Takeaways:

• The Critical Path Method reveals why different physique goals require different training approaches

• Focusing on your "critical path" activities can accelerate progress while reducing overall workload

• Regularly reassessing your critical path is key as your fitness journey evolves

• Eliminating wasteful and unnecessary activities is often as important as adding the RIGHT activities to your plate

Episode summary:

In the latest episode of the "Wits and Weights" podcast, we delve into the intriguing world of fitness planning by merging the contrasting realms of bodybuilding and marathon running with the Critical Path Method, a powerful tool from project management. This method is typically used to identify essential tasks in engineering projects, but here, it is applied to streamline fitness goals, whether they are focused on muscle hypertrophy or cardiovascular endurance. This strategic alignment ensures every effort counts and eliminates wasted time, enhancing your journey to your ideal physique.

Listeners are guided to understand the stark differences between the training regimens of bodybuilders and marathon runners, and why these two groups train so differently. Bodybuilders focus on heavy lifting, volume, and muscle building, whereas marathon runners prioritize endurance and mileage. These differences stem from their distinct end goals: muscle hypertrophy for bodybuilders and peak cardiovascular endurance for marathon runners. This episode explores how the Critical Path Method helps in identifying the most impactful activities for your specific fitness goals, thus eliminating wasted effort and optimizing efficiency.

The episode further emphasizes the importance of prioritizing critical tasks to achieve specific fitness goals. By drawing parallels between project management in engineering and fitness planning, listeners learn about the inefficiencies of pursuing conflicting goals simultaneously. The discussion highlights the need for specificity and prioritization in fitness journeys. By identifying non-negotiable activities and allocating resources effectively, individuals can stay focused on their primary objectives, reassessing goals and adapting plans as personal needs and circumstances evolve.

One key takeaway is the idea that efficiency is not about doing more, but about doing the right things. This principle is reinforced by illustrating the critical path for bodybuilders, which includes progressive overload, resistance training, and adequate nutrition. Similarly, marathon runners have their path focusing on running volume, cardiovascular improvement, and proper fueling. By recognizing and emphasizing these paths, listeners can avoid the common mistake of trying to pursue multiple conflicting goals, which often leads to inefficiency and frustration.

The podcast encourages a strategic approach to fitness that mirrors engineering principles, reducing stress and increasing adherence to fitness plans. By identifying critical tasks and eliminating non-essential activities, listeners can save time and energy, leading to better results. This efficiency-focused approach helps reduce stress, improve confidence, and enhance long-term adherence to fitness goals, which is crucial for sustainability.

Listeners are also introduced to the concept of a rapid nutrition assessment, which is available on the host's website. This practical tool helps identify critical path activities, providing a structured strategy to accelerate progress. The episode concludes by reminding listeners to keep focused on their goals, blending fitness and engineering for a structured approach to success.

In conclusion, this episode of "Wits and Weights" offers a comprehensive guide to achieving fitness milestones with a structured approach. By applying the Critical Path Method to fitness planning, listeners can align their bodybuilding and marathon goals, prioritize critical tasks, and eliminate inefficiencies. This strategic alignment ensures every effort counts, maximizing workout efficiency and achieving desired results. Whether you're lifting weights or logging miles, this episode provides valuable insights into streamlining your fitness journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're the type of person who spends lots of time focusing on your training and going to the gym to build strength and muscle for your ideal physique, but you haven't seen the transformation that you envisioned, this episode's for you, because today I'm explaining how the critical path method and engineering principle clarifies why bodybuilders and marathon runners train so differently and how this applies to your fitness journey. You'll learn to identify the most impactful activities for your specific goals, and that allows you to focus on what truly drives progress and then eliminate wasted effort. This approach often means doing less overall work while accelerating results, efficiency being the name of the game. So if you've been putting in this consistent effort but not seeing proportional gains, what I'm outlining today will show you where to refocus your energy for maximum impact. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're dissecting a question that puzzles many people who are into this fitness and strength training. Why do different people with different goals, like bodybuilders and marathon runners, train in such radically different ways, such that they get different results? It might seem obvious, but it's not, because you are probably one of those in the camp who lift weights, who want to build muscle, want a better physique, and you're a bit frustrated because it doesn't seem to be going the way you expect. So we are going to use the critical path method, cpm a tool from project management to break down these contrasting approaches and show you how to apply this principle to wherever you fall on that spectrum to optimize your own training regimen. And, of course, before we dive in, if you're finding value in these engineering inspired insights and episodes, hit the follow button. Just push follow right now so you get notified of future episodes. You don't miss them and it helps others discover the show. And, as a bonus, if you'd like to give a rating and or review in the podcast app you're listening right now I would be very grateful for that.

Philip Pape: 2:19

All right, let's get into it today, and I want to talk about the paradox of the world we're in here when it comes to fitness physical fitness Because on one hand, we have bodybuilders and I pick that because those are kind of the extreme example of people who are focused on consistent heavy lifting and weight training and volume, isolation exercises, compound lifts all of it to kind of build the strongest, most developed physique they can. On the other hand of the spectrum, we have marathon runners who are purely focused on endurance, logging extensive mileage, almost to the detriment of any resistance training. Of course we know now that fitness and strength and resistance training is helpful, no matter who you are. But even if you watch the Olympics and you just look at the physiques, you can tell there's a marked difference in muscle mass and body fat and things like that. And this stark contrast. You might think, okay, that kind of makes sense because they train differently. But it's still perplexing when both are held up as a model of fitness. Right, like people are, on one hand, a marathon runners are considered athletes and they're very and they're in the elite, you know the, the ones who are very competitive. On the other hand, so our bodybuilders but they couldn't probably run in a 5k and do super well. Uh, and I say that in all kindness, because kindness, because I know that if they did, they would have to sacrifice some of their bodybuilding goals. So it's not an insult to them at all. It's a matter of specificity, right? How do you determine which method aligns with your objectives in the most efficient way, the most specific way so you're not wasting time doing the things that don't really matter for your goals, and that's the important thing. I care doing the things that don't really matter for your goals, and that's the important thing. I care about efficiency. I don't know about you. I'm kind of lazy in that sense. I don't want to waste time doing these other things. So here's where we bring in the critical path method, cpm.

Philip Pape: 4:17

Now, in engineering, anybody who's familiar with managing projects and schedules and this could be hey, if you're a stay-at-home mom, if you're a homeschool teacher you guys are some of the best at managing budgets and schedules. But in the business world and engineering, a lot of people are familiar with this concept where you have to identify the most critical tasks in your project from start to finish. That if that thing is delayed, it's going to push back the entire schedule, right? If your materials for the foundation of your house haven't arrived, you can't build a foundation of your house and it's going to delay everything else with your house. You can't build a foundation of your house and it's going to delay everything else with your house, whereas if the you know siding hasn't arrived, you might have a lot of time until that happens before it matters, right, and even then you could live in a house that has no siding, for you could literally live in a house without siding. So the essential tasks form what we call the critical path.

Philip Pape: 5:14

And so if we apply this to this extreme of bodybuilders versus marathon runners, starting with the bodybuilders right, the bodybuilders have a critical path that usually includes spending time in a building phase, the improvement season some people call it right A gaining phase, using progressive overload, resistance, training, building muscle, being in maintenance or in a surplus, having sufficient protein, calories and carbs and plenty of recovery to just build, build, build, build. That's the critical path. Why? Because if you don't take that time, you'll never have anything to reveal once you diet down later. So if you forget that, it's like the foundation of the house. You're done. You have to start there at some point. Obviously somebody who's already built muscle multiple times over their career or their life. They've gone through that already. They've built that foundation.

Philip Pape: 6:03

Now, on the other hand, we have endurance athletes and marathon runners, and their critical path looks like gradually increasing their running volume, improving their cardiovascular endurance, optimizing the economy of their running and then properly fueling for those efforts which may be at the detriment of, say, protein or building muscle or even strength? Potentially right, not that those things aren't a foundation as well. And so the divergence in these two paths, these two critical paths, which are completely different goals, stems from their distinct end goals. The end result right, the bodybuilder aims to maximize hypertrophy of their muscles. The marathon runner is focused on peak cardiovascular endurance two very hugely different adaptations.

Philip Pape: 6:47

And where most people go wrong is they attempt to pursue multiple, often conflicting goals simultaneously. They want to build substantial muscle, but then they also want to improve their work capacity and their endurance. And then they're trying to lose body fat. Right, and this is akin to trying to, you know, construct a skyscraper and a highway with the exact same crew and resources. Right, they have to go back and forth and back and forth. It's very inefficient and it's often very ineffective.

Philip Pape: 7:17

And so the beauty of the critical path method is emphasizing prioritization. Like, what do you really care about? Right, like in a complex engineering project, you can't do everything at once. Same thing with your fitness journey you have to periodize, you have to focus on the tasks that will propel you the most directly toward your specific goal, and then the training itself has to emphasize that specificity. So what does that look like?

Philip Pape: 7:43

Well, first we have to know what that goal is. If you listen to this podcast, it's probably in the realm of building your physique and health, building muscle. There's an underlying reason that you're doing that right, a deeper why. And yes, you definitely want to start there with who you are and who you want to be, who you are living the life of now, the routine that would be lived by someone who's an athlete, someone who's strong. But then you obviously have to get to the nuts and bolts of something not vague, like I want to get in shape, or I want to get healthier, but I'm going to lose 20 pounds of fat, or I'm going to gain 10 pounds of muscle. I mean, we need to get to some level of specificity, just from a practical perspective, right.

Philip Pape: 8:24

And then you want to identify the critical path for that goal. What are the non-negotiable activities? So, if it's fat loss, this might include, of course, creating a calorie deficit. I mean, it's just a very simple thing that a lot of people take for granted, because you get hung up on well, I need to cut carbs, I need to cut this, or I need to increase my cardio, whatever. No, you just need a calorie deficit, however, that comes in a sustainable way for you, and you need more protein to hold onto the muscle and you have to use resistance training to maintain that muscle. So these are elements on the way with your critical path.

Philip Pape: 8:59

And now that you know that, you get to allocate your resources, your time, your energy, your mental focus to those activities and those activities alone, not to the exclusion of your family and your work and those things, but to the exclusion of other physical fitness related activities that don't get you to your goal, does that make sense? And so then you're going to de-emphasize or, yes, temporarily eliminate activities that don't directly contribute to that goal. It doesn't mean you're never going to do that, but they take a backseat to your focus in this moment, in this period. And then, guess what you do? You execute to that and you regularly assess the critical path because it's going to shift as you progress. Your needs and your goals might evolve, and they can evolve next week. I'm not suggesting that you constantly change what you're doing. I'm suggesting that as you transform, as you progress, as things happen in your life, like potentially injury or your vacation or whatever, you might need to shift those. Maybe you have a new goal you want to go after, like you want to run a 5K. Well, that's going to shift your goal.

Philip Pape: 10:04

So let's say you're a 40-year-old person and you're aiming to lose 30 pounds of fat and you want to gain noticeable muscle definition. Your critical path is going to include some key things. It's going to include, at some point, a moderate calorie deficit that's well controlled. It's going to include a certain type of macro balance, high in protein and enough fats and carbs for hormones and performance. It's going to include resistance training, probably three to four times per week for most people, emphasizing compound movements, strength, higher load activities, but also supplementing with accessories and isolation work. It's going to include a certain amount of sleep right, nightly sleep that's high quality, seven to nine hours typically and it's going to include some level of activity and movement daily right, a daily step goal or some other way to keep yourself active. Now notice what is not in the critical path for this person Excessive cardio, overly strict calories, like a crash diet would have, because that would actually be so detrimental You'd lose muscle.

Philip Pape: 11:04

It doesn't include two a days. It doesn't eliminate entire food groups. It doesn't include lots and lots of running, I think I mentioned that. Excessive cardio. There's a lot of things that it doesn't include, and if you're doing some of those things, even if you're doing them for fun, you still want to reassess your priority for those relative to what you're doing.

Philip Pape: 11:23

I'm not saying cut fun things out, I'm just saying you're probably doing a lot of things and some things can stand to be reduced or eliminated, at least for a while, and so the power of this method extends beyond just identifying what you need to do. It's what you don't need to do, and that's where a lot of people get stuck. They try to incorporate every little fitness strategy they come across, every podcast, every idea, every tip that they hear, every 1% thing, right From cold plunges to red light therapy, everything, and then they spread themselves too thin and then they get a suboptimal results, whereas most people just finding the few critical path things they need to do and doing them modestly, consistently, right, not even like 100% consistent. They're gonna get incredible results that way, right. And so if you apply CPM, you'll find that a significant portion of what you're doing right now is probably wasteful, it's probably not necessary, and so if you can eliminate the non-essential tasks, you're going to save time and energy and you're going to get better results. And that is the definition of efficiency, because you could have a greater focus on, and intensity on, what truly matters, and that's going to reduce your stress, that's going to give you confidence, that's going to improve your long-term adherence, which is sustainability. So, again, it is not about just what to do, it's what you can skip right?

Philip Pape: 12:44

A lot of the clients that come to me are exhausted. They're trying to do it all. They're cramming in daily spin classes or cardio or boot camps. They might be lifting six times a week. They might be doing tons and tons of um I'll call it meal like, obsessive meal prep, obsessive calorie tracking not kind of a more relaxed, uh, flexible tracking that I prefer.

Philip Pape: 13:07

And then when we apply this approach of what can we get rid of first rather than what you need to do right, I don't, I don't even want to tell you what you need to do. Let's say what not to do first and get that off your plate. Give you some more resources back, give you reduced stress. Then the effort goes to where they need to be and then you reclaim your time and energy and you start accelerating your progress because you're no longer dividing your resources. And again, that is why something like this, the critical path method, can be very effective Strategically not doing the wrong things. That's the way I'm going to put it Strategically not doing the wrong things so you can optimize your time and energy and basically be a super efficient, well-managed you know fitness enthusiast here.

Philip Pape: 13:49

All right, as you contemplate your strategy based on this episode, moving forward, keep this critical path method in mind. Take out a sheet of paper, ask yourself and write down the things that you're doing for your physical fitness, physical health, and ask yourself for each one is this truly essential for my goal? If not, what do I do about it? Do I reduce, do I eliminate? And if this discussion resonates with you and you're eager to identify your own critical path and you're not quite sure where to take it, I always provide free calls that you can get on with me.

Philip Pape: 14:19

They're called 15-minute rapid nutrition assessments and it's very focused, very fast-paced. We look at what you're doing today, where you want to be, what are your critical path activities and what are the things in the next 90 days that will get you unstuck so that you can accelerate your progress and have less stress doing it. So if you want to schedule that, just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click the big button at the top. Again, the 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment is always available. I always have spots on my calendar and what I see is the people who sign up for these are the ones who stop stagnating. They start getting tangible progress even when they do it on their own.

Philip Pape: 14:59

I'm going to be totally honest Not everybody signs up with me as a client. That's totally cool. If I could even get you some information that gets you moving and reduces that stress and gets you toward the physique you want, I'm all for it. So go ahead and use the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom, click the button at the top for the rapid nutrition assessment. Until next time, keep using those wits, lifting those weights, and remember that in fitness as in engineering, success often comes down to identifying and following the critical path and eliminating what is unnecessary. I'll catch you on the next episode of the Wits and Weights podcast.

7 Surprising BMR Facts (Your Metabolism Isn't Broken) | Ep 227

Is your metabolism holding you back from achieving your fitness goals? Do you ever wonder why your progress slows down despite your best efforts? Why do some people seem to burn more calories than others, even at rest?

Philip (@witsandweights) uncovers 7 surprising facts about your basal metabolic rate (BMR) that will completely change how you think about fat loss, energy, and fitness. You'll discover how factors like body composition, organ size, and even athletic habits play a huge role in your metabolism. From the truth about aging and its impact on BMR to debunking myths about metabolic adaptation, you'll learn practical insights to help you work with your body's natural processes and achieve better results. Whether you’ve been feeling stuck or frustrated, understanding your BMR might be the key to unlocking your fitness goals.

🎞️ To learn how to download and setup MacroFactor for free so you know your exact metabolism for any body composition goal, watch this video or go to https://youtu.be/HTOmVtR9UZw (don’t forget to use code WITSANDWEIGHTS to try it for free!)

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:48 Fact 1: The wide range of normal BMRs
5:34 Fact 2: How organ size impacts BMR
7:22 Fact 3: Allometric scaling of metabolism
9:11 Fact 4: Athletes' secret metabolic advantage
13:11 Fact 5: How BMR changes with age
14:35 Fact 6: Metabolic adaptation during fat loss
18:07 Fact 7: BMR and PCOS misconceptions
21:20 Outro

Episode resources:

• The MacroFactor BMR Series

Related Episodes:

• Bigger Isn't Always Better for Strength or Metabolism (Scaling Laws) | Ep 195

• Carbs Aren't the Problem (Keto, Paleo, Bioenergetic, and Pro-Metabolic Diets) | Ep 224

Episode summary:

Understanding metabolism is crucial for anyone looking to lead a fit and active lifestyle. In this episode of Wits & Weights, host Philip Pape delves into the often misunderstood topic of metabolism, revealing surprising insights that can revolutionize your approach to fitness and fat loss. At the heart of the discussion is the basal metabolic rate (BMR), the energy your body requires just to stay alive. Contrary to popular belief, your metabolism is not solely determined by muscle mass and activity levels; it also heavily relies on the energy demands of vital organs such as the brain, liver, heart, and kidneys. These organs, despite constituting only a small percentage of body mass, account for a significant portion of your BMR.

One of the most common misconceptions addressed in the episode is the idea that metabolism inevitably slows down with age. While it's true that BMR can decrease over time, this decline is often attributed to loss of muscle mass and decreased physical activity rather than age itself. By maintaining muscle mass through consistent exercise, individuals can effectively counteract the age-related slowdown. Moreover, athletes demonstrate a fascinating connection between athleticism and metabolism. They often burn more calories at rest, thanks in part to larger organs like the heart, which support their increased physical demands. This insight highlights the importance of regular exercise and strength training in maintaining a high metabolic rate.

Another key point discussed is the phenomenon of metabolic adaptation during weight loss. As you reduce calorie intake, your body may conserve energy, making it seem as though your metabolism is slowing down. However, this adaptation is largely reversible once normal calorie intake resumes. Understanding this concept is crucial for setting realistic expectations during a calorie deficit and ensuring sustainable weight loss. The episode also explores the concept of allometric scaling, which describes how metabolic rates vary across different body sizes. Larger individuals have lower BMRs per unit of body mass compared to smaller individuals, emphasizing the need for personalized fitness and diet strategies.

Philip Pape provides practical guidance for kickstarting your fitness journey, beginning with the initial maintenance phase. By calculating your starting calories and macros, you can tailor a diet and fitness plan that aligns with your body's unique needs. This personalized approach is further supported by tools like the Macrofactor app, which uses actual nutrition and weight data to calculate true maintenance calories. The app offers personalized recommendations, taking the guesswork out of tracking your metabolism and making it easier to achieve your fitness goals.

Throughout the episode, the importance of understanding and working with your body's natural processes is emphasized. Rather than relying on generalized guidelines, listeners are encouraged to embrace the uniqueness of their own metabolism and make informed decisions that support their fitness journey. By leveraging the insights shared in this episode, you can transform your understanding of metabolism and achieve a healthier, more efficient lifestyle.

The podcast episode is a treasure trove of information, debunking myths and offering actionable tips for anyone seeking to optimize their metabolism. From the surprising facts about BMR to the empowering message that you can control much of your metabolic fate, the insights provided are both enlightening and motivating. Whether you're an athlete looking to enhance your performance or someone simply trying to navigate the complexities of metabolism and weight loss, this episode of Wits and Weights is a must-listen.

In summary, unlocking the secrets of your metabolism is not just about understanding calorie expenditure but also recognizing the role of your body's organs, muscle mass, and physical activity. By challenging misconceptions and embracing a personalized approach, you can harness the power of your metabolic powerhouse to support a fit and active lifestyle. With practical tips and resources at your disposal, you're well-equipped to embark on a successful fitness journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever felt like your metabolism is working against you, no matter what you do, or that you're destined to have a slow metabolism because of your age, genetics or hormones, this episode is for you. Today, I'm going to reveal 7 surprising facts about your basal metabolic rate, or BMR, that will completely change how you think about your metabolism and fat loss. When you understand these facts, you'll see that your metabolism isn't broken or mysterious. It's just a bit unique and, more importantly, you'll learn how to work with your body instead of against it. Understanding your BMR could mean less struggle with fitness and nutrition, because you'll be able to make informed decisions that align with your body's natural processes. So if you've been feeling frustrated with your progress, constantly trying new diets but not maintaining your results, or simply confused about what's going on with your metabolism, what I'm going to outline today will give you the clarity and understanding you're looking for. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're diving deep into the world of your basal metabolic rate, or BMR, which is simply the energy your body burns just to keep you alive. It is part of your metabolism, but a big part of it. We're going to explore seven surprising facts about BMR that will change how you approach diet and fitness. From the range of normal BMRs what's considered normal to the truth about metabolic adaptation during weight or fat loss, we're going to uncover multiple facts about your metabolisms that you might not have been aware of to give you more confidence in what to do with your training and nutrition. Now I want to give a shout out to the team at Macrofactor for putting together the very in-depth series of 10 articles highlighting the latest research on this topic, which I borrowed from heavily for this episode, because they are among the best in the industry at examining metabolism science, and I've added a link to the article series in the show notes so you can go straight to the source. Speaking of Macrofactor, if you want to take the guesswork out of calculating your metabolism and tracking your calories and macros, I do highly recommend trying Macrofactor. It's the only food logging app that uses your actual nutrition and weight data over time to calculate your true maintenance calories not just an estimate, not just a calculator. It's based on your actual body's response, and then it makes personalized recommendations and you can try it for free for two weeks using my code wits and weights all one word wits and weights. Just click the link in the show notes or search for macro factor in your app store and again use my code wits and weights all one word.

Philip Pape: 2:50

All right, let's talk about the seven BMR facts that I wanted to pull out from those very in-depth articles, which are extremely detailed. They cover a lot of the science and background, and I wanted to pick just the things that really stuck out that I think confuse people or will clarify things for you. I learned a couple of interesting things in the process as well, which is always a lot of fun. The first fact is the wide range of what are considered normal BMRs. Actually, let me take a step back.

Philip Pape: 3:18

What is BMR? Basal metabolic rate is the energy or the calories that you burn every day just to keep yourself alive, and it represents usually roughly around two-thirds of all the calories you burn. The other calories you burn are from digestion and exercise and non-exercise, but we are focusing on the big piece of the pie called the BMR, which is usually what causes the confusion for people as to what is going on with my body. So let's start with a fact that might blow your mind maybe, and it's very surprising for a lot of people One in five people so that's 20% have a BMR below 1200 calories or above 2200 calories per day. Okay, so the range of what's considered normal is huge. It's much wider than most people realize, and that variation exists because of differences in body composition. That's a big one. We talk about it on this show all the time. With muscle mass, you take two people of the same weight, age, gender, height, and yet one burns a lot more calories than another. Sometimes it's simply a function of how much more muscle the other person has, but it's also due to differences in genetics and your overall health, and I'm just going to use that as a catch-all when it comes to lifestyle and all the things that could possibly affect your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 4:43

So this kind of one-size-fits-all approach to dieting, where you hear specific calorie targets or numbers that are generalized, even for similar body types, or even when you use a calculator online, that is fundamentally flawed. Even though we love to have targets and we love to have ranges, it's so wide it's almost useless when you just look at it. That way, your friend might be able to eat 2,000 calories a day and maintain their weight, while you might need to eat 1,600 or, on the other end, 2,400 to do the same, even if you're roughly the same size and everything else. And people are frustrated by this. They're like, well, why does so-and-so get to eat way more than I do? And if you understand that this variation exists in the first place, it means that you have to find what works for your unique body, right, not just following general guidelines or comparing yourself to others. So that's the first big one of how wide that ranges.

Philip Pape: 5:37

The second fact today is how your internal organs impact BMR. And here's another thing that might surprise you your high metabolic rate organs so that's your brain, liver, heart and kidneys account for over 50% of your BMR, but they only make up 5% of your body mass. That's incredible. They are very hungry. These organs are like the leads of your metabolic band, the lead singers in your metabolic band. You know they are screaming out and taking up all the attention and energy and asking for calories all day long. Okay, they just, they just don't stop.

Philip Pape: 6:19

And what's even more interesting is that small variations in that organ size between people can significantly affect your BMR. So, for example, two people weigh 165 pounds, right, and they both have 130 pounds of fat-free mass, but one of them has organs that are 20% larger than average and the other person has organs that are 20% smaller than average. Their BMRs could differ by about 230 calories per day, and that is a bigger difference than you'd see from gaining or losing over 20 pounds of muscle. So this highlights why BMR can vary so much between individuals, even when they have a similar size and body composition. So it really isn't just about muscle mass, even though we often oversimplify it to that. It is not. It also explains why the standard BMR prediction equations you find online can sometimes be off by quite a bit because of organ differences. Crazy, right. So that's the second fact to be aware of, and it's not much you could do about that, and that's okay, it's just awareness.

Philip Pape: 7:27

Number three, something called the allometric scaling of metabolism. Now you might think, okay, as people get bigger, their metabolic rate just increases proportionally or linearly. That's not quite how it works. In fact, I've talked about this a little bit on my scaling laws episode a while back. You can go to my podcast and search scaling laws. If you're not sure how to do that, reach out. Anyway, it doesn't increase linearly or proportionally just because you're bigger.

Philip Pape: 7:55

In reality, larger people have lower BMRs per pound or per kilogram than smaller people, and this is due to a principle called allometric scaling A-L-L-O metric allometric scaling, and allometric scaling describes how characteristics scale across organisms of different sizes. As organisms get larger, they tend to slow down. In relative terms, an elephant obviously has a higher BMR than a mouse, but per unit of body mass, the elephant's BMR is much, much lower. And this applies to us too, as humans. Right, the very largest human adults are more than five times larger than the very smallest human adults. So, just literally, body mass. This means that the linear equations, like the ones often used to estimate BMR, tend to overestimate BMR for particularly small people and underestimate it for very large people, and so if you understand this, it can help you set up more realistic expectations, right? A lot of times it comes down to just not expecting more than you can for your own size when it comes to your metabolic rate. So that's. Number three is that allometric scaling, understanding that so if you're very large or very small, this could affect you BMR.

Philip Pape: 9:12

Fact number four athletes.

Philip Pape: 9:14

Okay, athletes have what appears to be a secret metabolic advantage.

Philip Pape: 9:19

And what I would say is that if you think, okay, I'm not an athlete, tell me about athletes, but I'm not an athlete.

Philip Pape: 9:24

I want you to question that premise before I go on, because you can become an athlete, and I don't mean you compete in a sport or get paid professionally, I mean you train, you lift weights, you act like an athlete, you live like an athlete. In fact, that's something I encourage everyone to do on the show, it's something I strive to do, it's something anyone of any age, any gender, no matter where you are, no matter your injury history, can do. So just keep that in your head and this might motivate you then to get back to the gym, to go train, to step it up, to do what you maybe haven't been doing, and that's because athletes have higher BMRs than non-athletes, even when accounting for differences in body composition. So again, kind of like the Oregon fact, where it was above and beyond body composition differences, athletes also seem to have higher BMRs. And again, we're not talking about people born as an athlete, we're talking about people who act as athletes, something anyone can do.

Jenny: 10:16

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for the 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment he offers for free. During that session, I found he asked really good personal questions that helped him be able to give me excellent advice and tangible tools which I've applied, and since then I have lost 12 pounds where I was otherwise stuck. Now that I'm closer to my weight goals, I'm focusing more on my fitness and muscle and strength. So I just really want to say thanks, philip, for all of your encouragement and the free tools you offer, as well as the positive podcast message. It's really helped me.

Philip Pape: 11:00

So two people can have the same amount of muscle and fat, but if one is an athlete, they're likely to burn more calories at rest. And this is probably due to a few factors. First, athletes guess what tend to have larger organs, particularly the heart, to support their increased physical demand. So I was wrong earlier in the episode when I said you can't do anything about your organs, forgetting about the heart, because the more healthy you are, the bigger your heart is, therefore the more calories you can burn just from that. And I've always wondered why is it that people who train and build muscle seem to burn way more calories than you would expect, even for themselves, just from the muscle mass? Like if you just took muscle mass, you know roughly at most nine calories per extra pound of muscle mass per day. It's not much at all, and yet they burn way more than that. Is it just that they're burning more calories in general, or is it some of these other factors, like a bigger heart, because they're more healthy? Second, regular intense exercise itself, the training itself, movement training, lifting weights, sprinting, cardio, doesn't matter can lead to lasting metabolic adaptations. Okay, your body adapts to these things. You're doing that increase energy expenditure even when you rest and again, I'm not just talking about muscle mass You've become a person who your body expects to be athletic and to be moving and it craves all that energy all the time. So your energy expenditure is simply higher, even when you're resting. And then the really interesting part if that wasn't interesting already is, as I alluded to before, you don't have to be a professional athlete to see these benefits. Even recreational exercisers, trainers, you know, people who just occasionally, more than the average population, are active, tend to have higher BMRs than completely sedentary people. So if you're looking to boost your metabolism regular movement, regular exercise, especially strength training, because it combines a lot of these into one, one of the best things you can do it's not about burning calories to lose weight. It's really about increasing your energy flux and being a person who just needs and wants and craves that energy to be a thriving and active individual, which is a much more positive way to look at it in the relationship and context to food and protein and carbs and all the things BMR.

Philip Pape: 13:14

Fact number five and this is how BMR actually changes with age. You've probably heard that your metabolism slows down as you age, especially after 40, right, that's the big line. The truth, as always, is a bit more nuanced, because BMR does decrease with age, but it's very gradual through most of our adulthood. How gradual? Well, research shows that BMR decreases by about 1-2% per decade from your 20s to your 60s. So that's like 20 to 40 calories per decade, which is not exactly your metabolism dropping off a cliff, like many people are fearing. Now. This rate of decline does approximately double or triple beyond age 60. But even then, it's not as dramatic as it's often portrayed, because much of this decline is due to something you can control. It's due to the loss of muscle mass and decreased physical activity, not aging itself, and that's empowering. That means you have control over it. That's such a positive message. This means that by maintaining muscle mass through strength training and staying active, you can largely offset the age-related decline in your BMR. So if you're in your 40s or 50s or beyond and you're worried about your slowing metabolism, take heart, because your BMR likely hasn't changed as much as you think and you have a lot of control over keeping it high. All right, bmr.

Philip Pape: 14:38

Fact number six let's talk about metabolic adaptation. Okay, this is your body's protection mechanism, right? If you've ever been on a diet, if you've ever been in a calorie deficit of any level, you might notice that your loss in body mass, your weight loss, slows down over time. You tend to start to hit plateaus, or it gets harder even if you keep eating the same amount, and this is due to a phenomenon called metabolic adaptation, which we do talk about it a lot, but if you're new to the concept, it's simple During weight loss I should say more clearly, during a calorie deficit, which will induce weight loss, if you're truly in a calorie deficit though some people can be in a very slight calorie deficit and the weight loss is so slow it's unnoticeable.

Philip Pape: 15:20

During this calorie deficit or weight loss, your BMR decreases more than would be predicted based on changes in, say, body composition alone or even the weight loss itself and the adaptation. For most people it averages around 5% to 10%, and it's your body's way of conserving energy. Right, it's your body's way of conserving energy when it senses a shortage in resources coming in, and we know that this is temporary, it is largely temporary. It is caused by hormones such as thyroid. We've seen, we know studies that have compared, that have looked at thyroid production. You know TSH, t3, t4, and we see this almost immediate drop 5% or so, 6% I think was the average from the study and it kind of stays there at that level.

Philip Pape: 15:59

It's not like it keeps dropping while you continue to be in the deficit. Now maybe if you ramped up the deficit it would drop more. But let's say you're in a 500 calorie deficit and it drops by 5%. It's going to stay there for the next, say, 16 weeks of your fat loss phase and then once you return to maintenance calories and your weight stabilizes right, most of the metabolic adaptation reverses. You know, some studies do suggest that a very small amount let's say sub 5%, 3 to 5% might persist long-term after significant weight loss, might persist long-term after significant weight loss, but it's much less dramatic than many people fear and it's probably just the piece that's due to you weighing less. In other words, it's not really metabolic adaptation, it's just I mean it is, but it isn't right. It's you weigh less, your body just doesn't need to burn as many calories carrying around less weight. But the adaptation from hormones that was more dramatic during fat loss, that recovers and so if you understand metabolic adaptation, then again you can have realistic expectations.

Philip Pape: 16:56

During a dieting or a calorie deficit phase it's normal for the rate of loss to slow down over time unless you are tracking and aware of it and then adjusting your calorie intake to continue making progress. That's the key. We need to maintain the calorie deficit, not the calorie intake, right? Because if you just calculate your number at the beginning and you're at one calorie level and you eat 500 calories less than that, you might start losing weight at the beginning, but then it slows down because the actual calories you need are less due to this process. So you need to eat even less or do something else that bumps your metabolism up. So this doesn't mean your metabolism is broken or that you can't continue to lose more fat. I mean you can lose an incredible amount of fat if you are aware, if you're tracking and you're managing your lifestyle properly.

Philip Pape: 17:43

I help clients do it all the time. I can help you do it. If you want to reach out and you're like I don't buy it or I'm not sure, or my metabolism is so unique, I don't think this is going to work for me, it will, it will. I've seen every unique little corner, case and situation you can imagine and there's always a solution. It may be more creative and different than you think Right and that's part of my episode today is like. The awareness of it is step one, and then how to apply that to you specifically as step two.

Philip Pape: 18:09

All right, let's go to the seventh BMR fact I want to talk about, and this is related to women's health and PCOS. Pcos is polycystic ovary syndrome and you might have heard that PCOS lowers your BMR and that it makes it harder for women with PCOS to lose weight, and this comes primarily from a single study from 2009. But if we look at the totality of research on this topic, we find that PCOS doesn't appear to have a significant impact at all on BMR. The 2009 study that suggested otherwise had some methodological issues right, issues with its methods that likely lead to inaccurate results. All of this is explained in the detailed articles, so I you know again, shout out to Macrofactor if you want to go dig into that Now.

Philip Pape: 18:56

This doesn't mean that women with PCOS don't face challenges with managing their weight and their fat loss. They do, but they're more likely related to hormonal imbalances affecting hunger and fat storage you know, not a dramatically lower BMR and those can be controlled in some level via lifestyle, via how aggressively you diet, via taking breaks and going to maintenance and eating enough to recover and strength training, and on and on and on. You know more sleep, better stress and so on. So this fact again highlights the importance of you don't want to just cherry pick studies. You don't want to fear monger on one thing. You want to look at the broader body of research when you make any conclusion about health and metabolism. So those are the seven facts I wanted to share about your BMR.

Philip Pape: 19:40

But the most empowering thing about these is realizing that your metabolism isn't some mysterious force working against you. It is a complex, adaptive system and it's doing its best to keep you alive and functioning. So if you can work with your body's natural process, if you understand it and work with it instead of fighting against it, thinking that you have to force yourself to cut calories or do some crazy thing that doesn't feel right, then you can achieve better results, faster results, more sustainable, more efficient results in your fitness journey. All right, as we wrap up, I want you to remember that, even though we're talking a lot about BMR, it's definitely an important factor in your energy expenditure. It's just one piece of the puzzle.

Philip Pape: 20:23

The other pieces are your daily activities, your training and exercise and, of course, the food you eat, which all you know, like protein, which all play very critical roles in your body composition and, of course, in your health. In fact, I recently came out with an episode about carbs and I had people arguing that well, no, maybe carbs come into play with calories and expenditure, but not with health. In other words, you can eat too many carbs and it's bad for your health. And that kind of misinformation and nonsense is what I'm trying to eliminate when we have these discussions right, because a lot of it does come down to metabolism and energy balance and lifestyle. It never comes down to a specific food Again, unless you have an intolerance that you know about. But besides that, we can't generalize.

Philip Pape: 21:08

On the other hand, understanding your BMR is important because it helps you make more informed decisions about your diet and fitness routine, even though it doesn't define you. It doesn't define your potential for change. If you want to be an athlete, you can be an athlete and you can get the results you want. And then remember, if you want to take the guesswork out of calculating your metabolism and tracking your calories and macros, definitely give Macrofactor a try.

Philip Pape: 21:32

I created a free video showing you how to download and set it up for that initial maintenance phase so that you can calculate your starting calories and macros. So just click the link in the show notes for the video, or just grab the app off your app store and use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS all one word, but again you can watch the video, it'll walk you through. Or you could just go into it and have fun and use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS all one word to extend the free trial to give it a shot. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that your metabolism isn't broken. It's just a bit unique for you and and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Build an Aesthetic Physique Without Destroying Your Mental Health with Laurin Conlin | Ep 226

Do you feel trapped by obsessive dieting and constantly analyzing your body? Are you sacrificing your mental health in the pursuit of fitness goals? What if you could build an aesthetic physique without losing your peace of mind?

Philip (@witsandweights) takes us to the intersection of fitness and mental health with IFBB bikini pro and mental health advocate Laurin Conlin. They discuss how to break free from obsessive behaviors and anxiety around food and exercise, especially in the highly competitive world of physique sports. Laurin shares her journey and the mental costs of chasing the perfect body, offering practical strategies for overcoming food-related anxiety and adopting a more flexible, mentally healthy approach to fitness.

Laurin Conlin is an IFBB bikini pro, owner of Redefine Healthy Brands, and host of The LoCoFit Show podcast. She holds a Master’s in Exercise Science and is pursuing a Master’s in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. Laurin’s expertise bridges the gap between physical health and mental wellness, making her a unique voice in the fitness industry.

📱 Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes. https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:28 The shift from rigid to flexible dieting and its psychological impacts
6:52 Why food awareness is crucial but can become an obsession
10:01 How childhood behaviors shape our relationship with food
21:22 The mental toll of competitive physique sports
31:46 Why most people need more muscle before considering competitions
41:57 The balance between food awareness and obsession
49:33 Self-reflection and its role in sustainable fitness
54:44 Laurin’s plans to integrate fitness and mental health counseling
100:39 Where to find Laurin
101:53 Outro

Episode resources:

• Instagram: @laurinconlin

• YouTube: @LaurinConlin 

• Website: redefinehealthybrands.com

• The LoCoFit Show Podcast: redefinehealthybrands.com/podcasts

Episode summary:

Balancing fitness and mental health is a complex yet crucial endeavor, especially in the high-pressure world of bodybuilding and physique sports. In our latest podcast episode, we sit down with IFBB bikini pro and mental health advocate Laurin Conlin to explore this intricate balance. Laurin’s journey from a competitive athlete to a passionate spokesperson for mental wellness offers valuable insights into tackling the psychological challenges that accompany the pursuit of physical perfection. Her story underscores the importance of prioritizing mental health in the fitness journey, revealing how societal perceptions of mental well-being have evolved.

In the first segment of our conversation, we delve into the psychological costs associated with chasing the perfect body. The pressures of physique sports and the influence of social media can lead to food-related anxiety and obsessive behaviors. Laurin shares her experiences transitioning from a bikini pro to a mental health advocate and her ongoing pursuit of a master's in clinical mental health counseling. She provides practical advice for adopting a mentally healthier approach to fitness, helping individuals break free from the cycle of rigid dieting and disordered eating behaviors. The discussion highlights how mental well-being should take precedence over aesthetic goals.

As the conversation progresses, we explore the evolving landscape of mental health awareness and nutrition trends. The journey into nutritional research reveals how mindset plays a pivotal role in the success of dieting approaches. Even flexible dieting strategies can fall short without the right perspective. The impact of social media on fitness culture is examined, emphasizing the need for personalized coaching that addresses individual client needs and challenges. This segment provides valuable insights for anyone striving to find balance between nutrition and mental health, revealing that mindset often dictates the flexibility or rigidity of any diet plan.

The broader landscape of physique competitions, disordered eating, and body image challenges is examined in the next chapter. Laurin’s pursuit of a master's in clinical mental health counseling highlights the importance of bridging the gap between mental health and fitness. Reflective practices and self-awareness are emphasized as essential tools for personal growth. Meditation, often dismissed as "woo," is discussed as a potential game-changer, even for skeptics. This part of the episode is packed with insights and practical advice aimed at helping listeners cultivate a healthier relationship with fitness and nutrition, empowering them to make informed and sustainable changes.

Throughout the episode, we also explore the complexities of eating disorders, particularly in the context of bodybuilding. The conversation touches on internalized perceptions of body size, obsessive behaviors, and the rituals that can develop around eating and exercise. We discuss the prevalence of eating disorders among competitive physique athletes and how non-food-related issues often drive these behaviors. The need for better understanding and treatment strategies for eating disorders is highlighted, drawing from both personal and professional observations.

Understanding motivations in physique competitions is another key topic. The different mindsets and motivations of those interested in competing are categorized, emphasizing the importance of self-reflection and understanding personal motivations before entering this competitive space. The potential psychological impacts and the lack of barriers to entry are noted, with examples from Instagram fitness and professional athletes illustrating the unrealistic expectations that can arise. The significance of informed consent and realistic goals is stressed, encouraging listeners to assess how bodybuilding fits into their broader life context.

Navigating body image and competition mindsets presents its own set of challenges, particularly when working with older demographics. The importance of understanding client motivations and the risks of pursuing quick results, including the use of performance-enhancing drugs, is discussed. Long-term well-being is prioritized over short-term achievements, with a focus on building a solid foundation before considering competitive bodybuilding. Misconceptions about the sport are addressed, underscoring the need for thoughtful decision-making in health and fitness journeys.

Exploring food awareness and disordered eating reveals current trends in the health and wellness space, where tracking food and having physique-related goals are sometimes viewed as disordered. The intuitive eating and Health at Every Size movements are examined, highlighting potential misinterpretations or miscommunications, particularly on social media. The importance of food awareness is emphasized as a crucial component of overcoming unhealthy eating habits and achieving health and longevity. Misconceptions about dieting, such as the belief that intentional weight loss or calorie counting is ineffective, are addressed, stressing the need for a balanced approach that considers individual needs and goals.

Finally, the episode explores the importance of self-awareness and reflective practices in achieving long-term personal growth and behavioral change. The benefits of asking clients to reflect on their actions and experiences to uncover underlying triggers and patterns are discussed, emphasizing the value of consistent reflection through journaling or logging notes. The role of language in making reflective exercises more appealing to clients is highlighted, underscoring the crucial role of a coach in guiding clients toward greater self-awareness and sustainable change.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's say you've been obsessing over every gram of food, spending hours analyzing your physique in the mirror and even saying no to social plans because they might derail your diet, and you found yourself constantly anxious about food and exercise, even feeling trapped by the number on the scale. If so, this episode's for you. Today, we're going to explore how to build an aesthetic physique without destroying your mental health. As I sit down with IFBB bikini pro and mental health advocate, Laurin Conlon, we discuss the overlooked psychological costs of pursuing the perfect body, you'll discover how to break free from food-related anxiety, avoid obsessive behaviors and build an integrated approach to fitness that puts your well-being above all else. If you've been feeling trapped by rigid dieting or struggling with body image issues even if you've made progress, this episode will show you what you might be missing for a sustainable physique that you're mentally proud of. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:09

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm sitting down with the incredible Laurin Conlin to explore that fine line between building an aesthetic physique and maintaining mental health. Laurin is the host of the LocoFit Show podcast, owner of Redefine Healthy Brands and an IFBB bikini pro. She has a master's in exercise science and is currently pursuing another master's in clinical mental health counseling. Laurin has the practical and the academic experience where fitness and mental health overlap. Today you'll learn about the mental costs of constantly striving for an aesthetic ideal, especially in physique, sports and Instagram fitness culture. Laurin is going to help us understand challenges like food-related anxiety, disordered eating behaviors and obsessive tendencies that can develop when aesthetics are prioritized over well-being. And stick around, because toward the end of the episode, Laurin will give you some first steps to finding a mentally healthier approach to your physique development.

Philip Pape: 2:08

Now, this has been recorded after we attempted to record three times and, due to tech issues, we finally got it right. So you're going to notice a few things at the beginning One that I am looking way up at above the camera if you're watching the video, which I corrected shortly later on, and then a few times where we joke about the fact that we had to re-record a few times and Laurin was awesome. I think you're going to love this episode regardless, so bear with us with the tech issues and dive right in and enjoy the show. Laurin, it's so great to have you. Welcome to the show.

Laurin Conlin: 2:38

I'm so happy to be here. And third time's the charm. We have had two tech issues.

Philip Pape: 2:44

Exactly Two tech issues. We're practicing our acting chops here.

Laurin Conlin: 2:47

Yeah, yeah, exactly, and really wanted to get warmed up for you guys and just really dive right into it. But no, thank you so much for having me on. I really really appreciate it and I'm super excited to dive into these topics.

Philip Pape: 2:57

Yeah, I'm excited too, because mental health is sometimes overlooked, often overlooked. There's such a spectrum of in dieting whether we're talking about macros or intuitive eating or the whole spectrum disordered behaviors and people doing things for an extreme or for a look or to go on Instagram or whatever. And you've had experience across that spectrum. Right, You've been a bikini pro, dieting down and going through all of that, and you've also been a coach who advocates for mental health and now you're going for that master's in mental health. So tell us a little bit about what took you to this point where mental health is so important, and then we can kind of dive in to help people understand it a little more.

Laurin Conlin: 3:37

Yeah, for sure, and it truly is one of those things where I feel like, even just 10 years ago, right, and that's always like my reference point, I don't know why, but 10 years ago, this magical time, whatever, yeah, 2014, yeah, yeah, seven and a half years ago, no, but like 10 years ago, like you were to say, mental health it would still not as popular as it is now.

Laurin Conlin: 3:58

Right, like now, like if I were talking to someone and I could say, hey, like I'm starting to notice some patterns or I'm starting to see X, y, z, and even just talking to people that I knew personally, right, having a therapist or going to therapy was not as common as it is now. Now I work with people who have either had a coach or a therapist or both, usually, like before they even get to me, right, so, like, the space is just very different and so I don't think that it's not quite as stigmatized. There are certainly certain populations where it is still more stigmatized than others. I don't want to make a blanket statement like that, but what's also happened in my mind is that a lot of people are like mental health is important, and then the conversation stops Like, okay, yay, everybody's aware now that it's important, but we're now just saying these things that really don't really mean a lot, because there's not any action or any help. Yeah, what do we do?

Philip Pape: 4:50

about it yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 4:51

Yeah, what are we going to do? Okay, yay, we know it's important. Okay, so now, what? Now what starts? What happens, you know, and that's really where I think not only the space in general needs to kind of pick that up, and therapists on the ground are certainly doing that right. It's not like they're not, I just think in societal sense, you know, we need to also understand, like, yeah, going to therapy is actually a lot of work and it's really important and we need to give people that time to do that.

Laurin Conlin: 5:15

And really, why I started to go down this path was so, back in 2014, I started my December 2nd 2014. Kidding, do your diary. I started my master's with Dr Bill Campbell's lab at USF and I wanted to do research on how different types of diets affect weight loss and weight regain. So I started looking at Because this was of personal interest to me as a coach and also as an athlete. I was competing at the time and so I was like you know, I'm seeing these things with myself, seeing these things with the same clients what's going on. This was also when ifom was very, very popular and starting to like really kick off, like in the space. Also when instagram was really like taking off for like fitness culture. So a lot of things were happening like all at once and it was absolutely one of those like right place, right time kind of moments. And thankfully I had dr campbell who was so gracious to be like sure, you can run this whole study. This sounds crazy, but go do it.

Laurin Conlin: 6:01

And so we did this 22-week study of a diet phase, of looking at a meal plan versus macros for a diet phase and then a post-diet follow-up, which was of utmost importance to me to look at does how we diet affect not just weight loss but weight regain? Because I was seeing that most of the issues were coming not from a diet but from the post-diet period with individuals. So we ran that study, we had some good findings and then really over the next few years I would say that I was able to continue to help people like learn about things, like tracking macros and being more flexible with that and kind of moving away from that like really really rigid mindset of like the meal plans and the really bad diet plans that were so rife that time, and especially with competitors. And what was interesting was that not just competitors were being put on these plans but like people who were reaching out to these big teams, like I want to look like this person. We're being put on the like three noodles and two prunes, you know meal plan bullshit. And I'm like this person isn't competing. You know what are they eating this? So we were coming out of that field like that space.

Laurin Conlin: 7:05

But then things started to change and then I started to notice that people really started having issues Like tracking was no longer the issue. They were able to understand that and do that. They learned this new technique, but now they couldn't stop, or now they didn't know what to do when they couldn't. Interesting, like well, this is really interesting because this is kind of the inverse of what I thought. But wow, this actually looks a lot like what I thought was rigid dieting, but this is supposed to be flexible. So then the whole construct kind of fell apart again and I was like all right, I need to start to figure out what is actually going on. And that's when I really realized that how we view food has nothing to do with the actual plan. It has to do with our mindset. Right, some plans inherently do have more flexibility than others, but our mindset around said plan is really what is flexible or rigid. And so this is kind of what really kicked off a lot of what I started to share in the space.

Laurin Conlin: 7:56

And again, this was at a time where now for a while, ifom was this kind of anti-movement to like the bro space, right, right, right, and really had to fight against all of that. But then it kind of got assimilated and everybody was like, yeah, yeah, tracking macros is the answer for everybody. Oh, my gosh. And then it was like hold on, no, that's not appropriate for everybody. You know what I mean. And then I started getting pushback for talking about let's not do this, like, let's add in more flexibility. And now it's like if you want to track anything now you have a disorder problem.

Laurin Conlin: 8:27

And it's like whoa, how, in the span of my 11 plus year career, have we seen all these evolutions? And it really is truly crazy and what it ultimately is doing is that it's just really not taking into consideration where is the client and where is the individual? How do we coach to them? Because I can't sit here and say one client is better than the other. It has to do with the client and where they're at. And that's really what my study taught me and also just working with a ton of people has taught me, but I think that we really lack that nuance in the space, especially right now. Good, oh my God, and it's just like horrible right now in the you know you mentioned, like the Instagram fitness culture, right? I mean that has completely changed everything and just the way information is disseminated is so different and how people perceive things and the clickbait and what you know is being driven to do well on social media is just really making a mockery of what people actually need.

Philip Pape: 9:20

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there that I want to touch on. First, you mentioned how the conversation has shifted and this is a really good time in history to really take it to that level you're talking about. I was thinking we just watched the Olympics a short while ago the whole Simone Biles discussion about when she left in the last Olympics for mental health reasons, and even then it was a little bit taboo. It was a little bit taboo. And you go further back than that, right, and you look at anything from the 90s, for example, and you're like, wow, anything that's at all just getting into the realm of it's up here. The issues up here is how was highly stigmatized, you know. So that has shifted.

Philip Pape: 9:56

And then, like you said, the macros approach and the intuitive eating and it's like these camps whether you get down to the obvious camps like the keto versus bioenergetic versus this, none of those things are. The problem is what you're saying, like how it's communicated might be, but let's, I guess let's help people understand why. Like, what is the root cause going on here? You said individualization. We understand that. That's almost like the, I'll say, maybe part of the solution. How do we get back to understanding where this all comes from. Maybe we could do it by looking at how someone has gone through a journey and has harmed their mental health in pursuit of like a physical or the perfect body.

Laurin Conlin: 10:35

Well, I think, first and foremost and this is not to fault any one person, because we all fall into this camp we want easy answers. We want direct answers, right Like when we are dealing or struggling with a problem. I have this issue, I want it solved. Someone explains this to me in a way that seems really, really easy. They don't maybe know that that sounds too good to be true. It just sounds great. So why would they not go for that?

Laurin Conlin: 10:59

When you hear a lot of people who are more science communicators oftentimes there's a lot of nuance they say they take 10 minutes to answer something. They say a lot of words and everybody gets kind of annoyed by that, right. And then you have people who come up and they say hey, eat this, don't eat that. Oh, my gosh, simplifies it for me. Well, that's too simple. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that certain foods are not maybe better in larger quantities or smaller quantities than others. Of course they are, but it's just not ever as simple as saying do this, don't do that, and what that ultimately does is then, you know, some person will say oh, this one thing is really bad, and that's where we get into those camp you said, like the keto camp or the vegan camp or the carnivore camp. Then we get the camps and it's like then people are more confused than ever and they feel even farther away from their solution or their goal than ever. And when people feel too far away from something, they're less likely to actually start to engage in it. If the goal is too easy, people don't wanna engage because they're like this isn't really much different than what I have or what I'm doing, not really interested. If it's too far away their goal pursuit, they just are not very interested in doing that because it feels so large and looming. And that's not to say that we can't have large goals, but we need to have something that is hey, this is a little bit of a stretch for me right now, but it's not so far away from what I have that I can't foresee myself doing this. That's the big picture. But, like, how can I actually overcome this current hurdle and barrier right now?

Laurin Conlin: 12:25

Well, I think that, like, just largely, it's that human desire to have things be concrete and direct. And I also think that it's just a byproduct currently of just like our society and our world we have so much information at all times that people are getting so overwhelmed and people are just tired. Like, life is just hard. There's a lot of things at us all the time. People are busier than ever, and I don't think this is not a fault for anyone, right? Like, I totally understand where people are coming from. Like, I think of myself in other fields, right, financial stuff. I don't love learning about that, not really my jam to understand that kind of stuff, right? So if someone paints it really clearly and really easily for me, well, okay, that sounds pretty good to me, right, but then I have to go. Okay, is that the right answer? And thankfully, I have people in my life who help with that nuance, right, but not everybody has that.

Laurin Conlin: 13:14

So, when it comes to nutrition, when someone is trying to overcome a lifetime of, maybe, poor eating habits and poor mindset around food, they hear someone say, hey, don't eat oats, they're bad for you, but make sure that you eat all of this. Oh, okay, well, I just won't eat oatmeal anymore. Now, I'm healthy. And it's not because they don't want to take the time to look into it, it's just because that's what's there and that's what seems right.

Laurin Conlin: 13:35

So that's where we get the confusion. One person says oats are good, one person says oats are bad, another person says they're going to give you cancer, another person says eat in moderation. And then you're like well, what is happening? So I think that that's really where a lot of the current confusion is. And then, in terms of like people's food and like their view and mental health, in terms of seeking kind of you know, different physiques, right, I think that there are, well to go, a lot of different ways. So I'm like is there a specific direction you want me to go with that? Do we want to talk, maybe on like competitors or lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 14:09

Yeah, you know what? Why don't we do this? Because you mentioned, people have a lifetime of eating habits and mindset around food and I'm like maybe we start there because a lot of this does start with your childhood and how you're raised and how I mean I think I've heard you talk about as young as eight years old having dieting, restricting with your food, and I have daughters that are 10 and 12. And that's like a super important thing I need to be aware of. My wife talks about when she was young, being shamed for, you know, being a little bit heavier at a certain age. I mean, do you mind sharing maybe what you remember from that age personally, but also how common it is? Is it for those behaviors to start that young and how that leads to this? That where we are today?

Laurin Conlin: 14:47

For sure, and I don't want to overstep any, I guess, boundaries in terms of research, so I'm not super familiar with like ages and all that kind of things, like I don't want to say anything in that, but I'll share my experience and also, just, you know, working with a lot of families, especially moms, so I did start to have, you know, restrictive behaviors around eating very young, and this was not due to my parents. They were not saying, oh, you're this, they were giving no supplemental messages to that. So I want to make sure that that's clear. They were not doing that, thankfully. But it was one of these just internalized things that I felt that I was bigger than other people that were around me, which was actually false, which is the hilarious part of how our minds can work sometimes. Right, I was probably an average size in comparison to my friend groups, but I only looked at the people who were smaller and said I'm bigger, so I need to be smaller, right? You know how that works and it was just one of those things where I'm someone who is have a little bit more obsessive behaviors around things. I get very hyper, fixated on things, and so it was a also kind of became a game of like, let me just eat less and oh, I got smaller. Okay, cool, you know it's not a tape measure. Oh, I got smaller. Okay, let me try this again and let me do more. And then let me add in like activity and let me just like run Cause I like running, cause I did like, let me run a lot and let me do a bunch of sit-ups. Then it becomes like I can't leave the house until I do this many sit-ups. I can't eat unless I have this many water bottles I can't like. It became these weird rituals that I developed which is very common for a lot of people who struggle with this. So it was kind of a combination of things for me and you know, at the time it was a few years that it got pretty bad.

Laurin Conlin: 16:21

But then you know, my family my family, you know went to dietitians, went to a therapist. To be honest, I don't really remember a lot of those situations. I can kind of have a vague memory of the lady's office, but I don't really remember, and just remember the one thing the dietitian was asking about, you know, fruits and vegetables that I eat and whatever. And I remember telling her there was this yogurt that I would eat that, you know, and like the yogurts have, like the old yogurts had like the little pieces of fruit, I was like, yeah, I have that in there. And she was like that doesn't count. And I just remember that being like a funny thing. But like now I like think back on but I just, I mean, I became so obsessed. I still to this day know food labels, like I can't remember what I did yesterday, but I know food labels that I haven't eaten in years, you know.

Laurin Conlin: 16:58

So it just became this very interesting thing, thing for me and thankfully I was able to get help and move past that and view food in a healthy way.

Laurin Conlin: 17:06

But it was once I decided, hey, I want to do bodybuilding. I was only a few years removed from being anorexic and also having this exercise kind of bullshit, which I wasn't necessarily diagnosed with but definitely qualified, and I was like, no, no, no, I'm not starving myself, I have to still have some muscles, I can't just not eat at all. And everybody was like, okay, kind of a little worried, but it actually, you know, it definitely, more definitely had its periods, right, it's had its up and down moments, but it never restarted those, never restarted any kind of anorexic tendencies for me, thankfully. But there are a lot of people who get into competitive physique sports who have had a history of eating disorders or disordered eating, I mean the. The prevalence of that is, and I don't know the exact stat off the top of my head, but it is a very, very high number of individuals and it makes sense who's drawn to these types of things, right?

Philip Pape: 17:54

Is it because they're already doing it and or it just aligns with what they're doing, like to some extreme?

Laurin Conlin: 18:00

It kind of a lot of people and and the thing, eating disorders are tough because they are very misunderstood by a lot of people and it's really hard to really classify everyone and say everybody here, this who falls under, like this got it, there's nuance, like so, so tough, like why is someone dealing with this? Right? And I would say that in my experience and maybe this will change but at this current moment, september 20th, I truthfully believe that most eating disorders are stemming from non-food related issues and a lot of people are using food in a way, and for some people it is control, right. You always hear oh, anorexics are, you know, they have a lot of control issues and they're perfectionists and they have all these tendencies. There's another theory that it could be well. They are also typically very conscientious and have a higher level of disgust, sensitivity and disgust towards themselves. So a lot of times it's people who are really struggling internally, who don't know how to express that. So they turn to controlling their own environment and just trying to get smaller and smaller and smaller. And then you know there's also, of course, binge eating disorder and bulimia and a lot of times that is.

Laurin Conlin: 19:10

You know, I've worked with people who they've had that and you know they're working with me now not in an active phase by any means, but you know they are struggling with just emotions in general and they're using things like food and alcohol to cope, which then you're like, okay, well, is this now co-occurring with a substance issue?

Laurin Conlin: 19:26

For some people it is, other people it's not right. So it's so complicated and right now the current strategies are some are good, but I have worked with many people who have gone to different clinics or different specialty programs and some of the stuff that I'm hearing. I'm like, yeah, I really want to change this. I'm really hoping I can actually get into that once I'm practicing to actually maybe help make some adjustments to that for sure. But I would just say in general that people who are a little bit more extreme are drawn to body building, and people who, of course, have an extreme interest in what they look like and what they're eating or not eating are also drawn to body building. I would say that it also draws on people who not all, and when people have worth issues or self-confidence issues, they decide to maybe do this and they think, oh, this would be great. I'm really putting myself out there and challenging myself.

Philip Pape: 20:15

As a goal to hit as a drive-on, right.

Laurin Conlin: 20:18

I can't think of the worst thing to do and not to say that you shouldn't do it, but I'm very, very big on we need to be aware of what is happening, right. The one thing that is really tragic about physique sports is that it often gets glamorized, especially in the bikini division and especially in the men's physique division, sometimes classic, but I would say you know, mostly those are kind of the divisions, right. Most people are not waking up and saying, oh, I'm just gonna look like mr olympia, we're a female bodybuilder.

Philip Pape: 20:51

It's not accessible.

Laurin Conlin: 20:52

Yeah not really accessible to most people. But oh, those bikini girls. They look pretty normal, normal, whatever that means. Right, try to use the language that people use. It's not, and what has happened is that what looks to be like a normal size physique, what looks really glitzy and really glam and really fun, it has a lot of hormonal and metabolic and mental side effects. And that does not mean that nobody should do it. That does not mean that it's bodybuilding's fault. I'm very big on that. There's a lot of people who like to blame the physique world and the whole. No, it's not. It's just a byproduct of it.

Laurin Conlin: 21:29

And problem is you're dealing with a subjective judging for something that you've put a lot of objective time into improving, and what people think is that, oh well, I've worked really hard, I've been really hungry and I've been dedicated to this like I should do well. There is no reason that you should do well because you don't know who else is showing up. You don't know what other physiques are there. It's not like, if I do this, I'm gonna get. You know, I'm running this race and I'm gonna get faster. Right, I got faster, I did better, yay, that's not how it works. You could literally look significantly better your next season and place worse.

Philip Pape: 22:09

Yeah, depending on the competition and the judges.

Laurin Conlin: 22:10

Yeah, so, and that is just. I grew up riding horses and showing competitively, which was all subjective, very subjective. Of course there are certain ground rules you know you have, just like bodybuilding, right, like there are certain things that they're looking for, but it's very subjective and I was accustomed to that, I think, from a young age, and so it's not that I didn't struggle with that bodybuilding, but I think I struggle a little less than other people because of that, because I knew, like this is just kind of how those sports go, but a lot of people get into it and they don't realize that. And then what happens is there's always the next thing, right, it's this very strange thing that sucks you in, and I don't know all the exact mechanisms. Obviously, dopamine isn't right here, of course. It just kind of runs our life in general. But basically you work really, really hard, you are really dieted down. You've said no to a million things in your life. You get down to it, and then you feel amazing, and then you don't play straight ball, you get overlooked, you barely even get noticed, and then you're like, oh my God, what do I do? Should I do another show? Another show seems like the answer, because there's always. Well, you're just right there. Right, there's always. You just get a little leaner, just get a little of this. There's always that.

Laurin Conlin: 23:24

So then what happens is people do another show and then becomes this much more narrow focus of like I have to compete and like do better. And it's really, really tough to see that and I've seen it happen to people and it's really hard because, like anything in life, someone has to like recognize that that's what's happening and they have to want to not be doing those things right. But you see a lot of people following that way and I would say that most of the time just becomes this kind of like hole that you almost like can't dig yourself out of, kind of like almost it's not like an addiction. I don't want to say that it's like, oh, it's like an addiction, but you know it could be likened to that. I would say it can follow along the lines of a behavioral addiction, almost right, and it's so niche that we're never, probably ever, going to get data on this, ever say, like what's actually going on, because there's way bigger fish to fry in the world and I know that, for you know, research and funding and all of that.

Laurin Conlin: 24:16

There's some people who do stuff like this. You know, dr campbell, of course, focuses on physique enhancement. You know, people like dr eric helms focus on things like that as well. So there's a lot of people who are interested in these kinds of things. But it is a very unique subset of things. That happens because it's not just the physiological stuff, it's also the psychological stuff.

Laurin Conlin: 24:34

And then you have this. There's always this like power differential, of like you're being judged by someone and you need to like improve and do better here, you know. So there's always like I'm playing catch up, almost because I have to. You know, like does that make sense? It's really insidious for a lot of people, especially if they're not prepared. And that's where it's when people who decide that they want to compete and they want to turn pro and they fully understand all this like I'm so in it, I'm going to push you as hard as you want. But people are like yeah, I just want to do a bucket list thing, maybe do a show. How about we just get pretty lean, lean and like maybe do a photo shoot, see how you feel before we like enter this like danger zone?

Philip Pape: 25:16

That's a totally different level of leanness. Yeah, so I want to pull on that string. I almost think of like three buckets of people. You have those who are ready for it mentally ready it could be a lot of fun, really no concerns from your perspective. Mental, you know, from a mental health perspective. Then you have people like you said, or a casual maybe they also don't have any issues going on, but they're also not right for it because they're doing it for the wrong reasons. And then you have people who are not ready for it.

Philip Pape: 25:37

Now, obviously, the scope of this show and the scope of my practice is not medical, dealing with eating disorders or any of that. We're not trying to diagnose or help anybody with that specifically on this show. But we do want people to be aware from a self-reflective perspective where they might fall on the spectrum. And so you talked about something like informed consent for people who want to get into bodybuilding and physique sports to understand the risks. Can we bucketize it that way and help people understand like, yes, if you're in this category, you could be ready, or if not, here's some warning or red flags.

Laurin Conlin: 26:10

Yeah, I always just like to ask. When I get a new client who wants to get on a call to work with me and they say that they're interested in competing, my first question is always right what is the reason that's?

Philip Pape: 26:21

a good first question for anything we pursue in life, isn't it yes?

Laurin Conlin: 26:26

And it's not to be judgmental, it's not to be any of those but I really need to understand what are the motivations behind you competing this year? Right, and for some people they've never competed. So that's really the main group that I'm trying to like understand, right, see if they really get a grasp of that. Someone's competed before. Generally they already, even if they've done one show, kind of have an idea, right. But when someone's never done something and they've only to your term, probably, like Instagram fitness, they've only followed people on Instagram or YouTube and they've seen show day vlog and you know all this stuff. And you see the top few Olympians, like they look great all year and that's what they're doing.

Philip Pape: 27:00

Like it's amazing, like especially bikini. It's so sparkly and like, yeah, you're right, the glitz and glam, the lighting, everything yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 27:07

Yeah, and for a handful of those top girls like that is their life and that's amazing, like I'm so happy for them, you know. But we have to put into perspective that that's not most people and I think what's hard is that you brought up Simone Biles earlier. I know there's not many adult gymnasts so maybe it's not a great example now, but most people don't watch the Olympics and are like I'm going to, I'm someone bios. Most people aren't playing recreational basketball and they're like I'm going to join the NBA. We kind of have these understandings that we're not going to do that most likely. But with bodybuilding there's no barrier to entry. Anybody can join as long as you could pay, and it's just like well, maybe I can and some people can. That's the thing. Some people can, some people.

Laurin Conlin: 27:51

I've worked with people who have literally trained weights for a few years, like lifted weights just for a few years, and you're like and you know they're older and you're like how do you have this physique? Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. You have all this potential. You have the perfect structure. You have all this. No, you can't start at any point, but to have this like overly romanticized idea about it, like right now, you know I have posing clients that I work with too, who aren't necessarily my actual clients, and you know it's so common when you know we're practicing posing, you're just so tired, just like whatever. And I was talking to my one girl and you know she's competed before so she knows what this feels like. But she also has a business to run and I'm like, hey, just a reminder. You were because I was like hey, are you gonna do another show or you're just doing this one. She's like I don't know, just really really run down, like this is a reminder that this is, you're doing this for fun. You're doing this as something as a learning experience. You wanted to beat your last season, which you already have with your current physique, but you have other responsibilities. So it's okay if you only want to do one show and remember that. You know, and it's.

Laurin Conlin: 28:50

I think it's just an important conversation that we have with ourselves of how much is this impacting my life. You know my career, my finances. You know people I work with a lot of people who have kids. You know like there's a lot of different factors that we have to like weave into this right, and how important are those? So I would say what are the motivations behind the key to, and based on what someone says, I will kind of start to gear the conversation maybe in a different way, and especially for a new person. Most new people and this is going to generalize, but majority of new clients are not going to have enough new to bodybuilding are not going to have enough muscle to compete. They're just not. That's important.

Laurin Conlin: 29:27

If you want to compete, we can get on stage, probably this time next year. How does that sound? They're like oh my God, what. And I'm like yeah, you said you really wanted to do this. How does that sound? They're like well, I was told I could do it.

Laurin Conlin: 29:40

You know, 10 week prep or 12 week prep. Okay, you could, we could diet down your current physique. 12 weeks is it's probably not long enough, but we could. And you're not going to have enough muscle and you're probably just going to get kind of thin and not really have the shape that you're looking for. And to get that lean in 12 weeks we're going to have to do some stuff that probably isn't super great for you long-term and then you're going to probably be in a worse spot three months later after the show. So if that's something that you want to do, I'm not the coach, but go ahead. And that's always kind of that litmus test and I always say, hey, it could be less than a year, that would be amazing, but we need at least a few months to build and at least a few months to diet and realistically that's going to be about a year.

Laurin Conlin: 30:20

You know, unless someone has. Maybe they've already competed and they've taken a bunch of time off and they've just kind of been like, you know, they've been on like maintenance mode, right, like I've even thought about maybe I'll compete next year. I'm so crazy. But yeah, back in school before I do my practicums, like why did I do this? Yeah, I'm like, well, I've been in maintenance mode for a long time, you know, and but I know that once I started actually training hard again, that's a different story. You know what I mean. It's not like I've not been doing this.

Heather: 30:46

Hello, my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace.

Heather: 30:49

Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, turkey.

Heather: 30:56

As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard, this is not a good time. But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day, and not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months. Here I am on the other side of eight weeks, got my kids through all the things that we have been through, and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press. I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful. Thank you, philip no-transcript.

Philip Pape: 32:20

Listeners listen closely.

Philip Pape: 32:21

That's most people listening probably.

Laurin Conlin: 32:23

It's most people. I rarely at this point and it's probably also like at this point. Like I, you know, I'm getting older, so the people who I work with are also getting older too. I don't really usually have people who are like 18 reaching out to me to work with me. Not really like my target demo, you know anymore. So when I'm working with you know a 45 year old mom she has in that case, had kids, so possibly had kids has most likely been through multiple diets, if not years and years of dieting. May or may not have competed right.

Laurin Conlin: 32:51

So we have all of these different things coming at us in terms of we have the previous experiences and mindsets from, maybe, coaches that they've had plans that they've followed and then also just like their own perceptions too, and then everything else. So we can't just say like, yeah, you're going to be ready for 12 weeks and you would think that that kind of stuff would go away, but it hasn't, because there's still people who like prey on that and they're like, no, I can get you ready. And then again people's perceptions and they have there are a lot of coaches that prey on that. I can't stand people who just haven't, haven't really seen. I'm like actually just go to a show and also this is another part and a half people who've never competed and I'm like no-transcript. Think, if people are interested in this kind of thing, that we have to really understand their motivations and we have to understand are they willing to look at the big picture? Because I'm not interested at this point to work with people. If they're going to come out of working with me and be worse, like that is like, of course, opposite of my. It doesn't matter to me if I never work with someone again for a pro card or this. That's an added amazing bonus. Yay, but that's never my goal or my intention.

Laurin Conlin: 34:19

How can I leave someone better? And that doesn't mean that competing is ever easy. So I do want to make sure that that's clear. It doesn't matter how great the approach is, whether it's me or any of the other coaches that I know who are fantastic at this. It doesn't matter how great the approach is, whether it's me or any of the other coaches that I know who are fantastic at this. It doesn't make the process any easier. It doesn't make the physiological adaptations any easier. It doesn't make the psychological adaptations easier. It might make it a little better, but it's still just going to be really hard. You can have the best coach in the world and, as a female, if you're getting a 10% body fat, you're not going to feel okay. Things are going to get a little weird for a little while. Right, just how it's going to happen.

Laurin Conlin: 34:54

But how are we keeping someone in this for too long? Are we not paying attention to, maybe, some of the signs and symptoms that they are falling into a not so great place? Right, either mentally or physically? Like, do we need to pull out of prep? Like, there's a lot of different things here that I think some coaches are not focusing on. Thankfully, there are so many amazing coaches now who are interested in this kind of stuff, and I mean, I know so many of them. So it's like there is just a plethora of not great practices that are happening. And then, of course, add in, you know, peds, if someone wants to do that which, again, totally like, that is your choice, your perspective, but it can be very, very short sighted for some people. I think that if someone wants to do that, my personal opinion would be try to do this, naturally, at least for a season, or at least for some period of time to see what you can actually do.

Philip Pape: 35:46

Yeah, I think that's great. Put on the training wheels right and just try to get lean in general and don't worry about all the specific stuff, which is a whole extra layer. Yeah, yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 35:54

Let's not even dabble in that, because you might find that you did a show and you're like I never want to do this ever again, and this is so like just not in congruency with my life. And now you've realized that, like you've taken all of these drugs that could have long-term side effects that people don't like to talk about and I'm not an expert in that, so I'm not going to speak on it, but I do know that there are many things that people take that can affect one long-term. So it's not just like an easy thing to be like, yeah, well, I'm just going to just add that into it. It'll make it easier, yes, in the short term, but you really need to know am I doing this for the long term? If I'm working with a client who has been doing this for several years and they want to then add that in, that is their prerogative, that's their decision.

Laurin Conlin: 36:36

This is not a quick rush to do something like that, and I think that it's really important to also have that discussion with people. But it's kind of this. You know, I think we've made huge strides in the space, but there is still that mindset of like, oh, if you're doing a bodybuilding show like you just have to take drugs and diet, you know, and eat boiled chicken. It's like no, that's through the whole other world.

Philip Pape: 36:58

Yeah yeah, yeah, no, I guess people listening I don't know how many are interested in competing, but a lot of what you're talking about and the principles apply anyway universally.

Philip Pape: 37:08

I mean one thing you mentioned just kind of quickly, but it is important and we love talking about it here is spending some time building muscle first, no matter what, and the vast majority of my female clients I don't do shows or anything, I don't have that experience I gently try to nudge them toward, you know, their own realization that they might really enjoy the process of adding muscle.

Philip Pape: 37:28

And, by the way, you know, look at somebody like Laurin Collins, super strong, you know or Steph Gaudreau, or you know all these in the space you feel great, you eat a lot, right, there's so many like positives, and then it gives you a better base to go from that and then be a very informed like we talked about informed consent, but that could simply be even just lifestyle, lean kind of.

Philip Pape: 37:45

Look at the process that's involved. And, like you said, there's a dieting piece, right, there's a fat loss phase here at some point. And so, if we want to then segue into the mental side of like, where's that line between food awareness and food obsession? Because you and I, either on the first, second attempt or this attempt at recording this podcast early on, so I don't know if the listener heard this. You were kind of talking about that spectrum and the history of like. If it fits your macros to where we are today, we don't have to repeat all that, but basically like, where's that line so that we can have a healthier relationship with food, especially with the history that many people have?

Laurin Conlin: 38:20

I think it was second one, but I'm not sure I know either way, currently there is this new trend I would say it not new, but newer where, again, this is not everybody in the space, but there is a handful of people in the space who are basically saying that if you're tracking any of your food, that it's disorder. Having any kind of physique related goals is disordered in nature and essentially it seems to me like it's the intuitive eating and health at every size. Movement has degenerated, not for everybody, but for some individuals, and how they're sharing their message. They're saying you know, this is a disorder, this is bad for you. You should just be able to eat whatever you want and really just honor that and this and that. And my biggest beef with this is that Pun intended, sorry. Yeah, my biggest beef with this is that most of the people that I've seen sharing these messages the irony is not lost on me that they all have years and years and years of experience tracking their food and being aware of their food and anyone who has ever gone through a period of tracking food. I'm not even talking about weighing it out, I'm just talking about anything like any awareness of food that sticks with you. You don't lose that right. So it's not lost on me that a lot of the people who have all this knowledge are now the ones saying just don't do this at all, but that's really unfair to the person who.

Laurin Conlin: 39:44

Taking it all the way back to the beginning of this episode, these habits and behaviors start early in our life, right, I didn't grow up, I grew up with, clearly, an eating disorder, so my experience was a little different than most people. But let's take the example of someone who grows up in a family who doesn't know about the constituents of healthy eating. They're relying on fast food and convenience foods, and that is how they grew up. That is all that they know, right? So for them to try to overcome those habits and behaviors, they're going to have to learn quite a bit of knowledge around food and what's in that and portions, and so for us to just say to that person you know, just eat whatever you want, just eat what makes you feel good, is really harmful messaging, in my opinion. Do I think that everybody can get to a space where they're intuitive? I call it intuitive-ish. Yeah, I like that Intuitive-ish. I think that that is absolutely appropriate for most people.

Laurin Conlin: 40:43

I am not sitting here tracking my macros. There's no point in me doing that now right For my life, my goals? I don't do that. But, as we've discussed for the past, since I was eight years old, I've had an awareness of what's in food. I haven't lost that. I still meal prep, I still portion foods out. I still know wow, I was kind of low on this today. Maybe I should have a protein shake. Wow, I missed this meal. It's just, and it's not an obsession, it's just a it's awareness. Okay, this is awareness of what is allowing me to be a healthy, optimal, functioning person. Right and physique aside, health. Eating certain ways influences our health directly. Like there's like, no, there's quite literally zero debate on that. So I think there's a lot of principles about intuitive eating that I appreciate and that I like, but I think that a lot of people in the social media space have created this conversation around diets don't work. That's my favorite one. Intentional weight loss doesn't work, not true?

Philip Pape: 41:36

Energy balance doesn't work. Calories in, calories out doesn't work. Intentional dieting works.

Laurin Conlin: 41:43

What didn't work was how that diet was approached and what we did before that diet and what we did after that diet. So that's what we need to change. It's not that calorie deficits are really bad for us. It's that, and actually quite the contrary. But that's a whole different segment, so I'm not going to get into that.

Philip Pape: 41:57

And whether the diet's even the diet for you. Yeah, exactly.

Laurin Conlin: 42:01

So all diets are bad. Any tracking and it's so funny because at the start of my career it was okay, oh, like, were you know any kind of flexibility with diets and food choices was looked at like a monster, like, oh my gosh, like going against the bro diets and you know all of the books that you have, all the diets that everybody you know, magazines, all that kind of stuff, right, like having any kind of flexibility, you can eat whatever you want, just measure it out. That was like this whole big thing and then, like we talked about kind of in the beginning, then I started to realize, well, that actually kind of does have some of the problems, not because of the diet, but because of people's mindset around it. And then now we're at this weird space too. So I feel like it's just like it's continued to and I think that it's just a byproduct of social media and how we said.

Laurin Conlin: 42:45

You know, I think a lot of times people want quick answers, so we want things that are very concrete. This is good, this is bad. It rarely is that what is helpful. So food awareness, I think, is something that is incredibly important, and this again is irrespective of your physique goals, obviously, if you're more specific physique goals, you need more good awareness. That's pretty obvious. But I think that even just having a healthy body and focusing on our health and longevity, having food awareness is incredibly important for that as well. So all of those things Now, food obsession can certainly happen.

Laurin Conlin: 43:22

And why does that happen? Kind of alluded to and this is again not just categorized, diagnosed eating disorders, because a lot more people fall into disordered eating, which is kind of this big broad umbrella term. It's kind of like when you have stomach pain, you go to the doctor like you have IBS and you're like thanks, appreciate it. Or with women, they're like we don't really know. Hey, you're like cool, that really didn't help at all. So, and also, you're too young for it to be hormones. Sorry, yeah, oh no, you look fine. Why do you get your? Okay, yeah, that's totally how it works, right, but so with see, now I got you, I'm trying.

Philip Pape: 43:58

No, no, it's okay yeah, with disordered eating.

Laurin Conlin: 44:02

What does that mean it? Right, like I don't even know if anybody has it a perfect characterization of what that is, but let's just say food obsession, right. And the common thing that I see with clients so we'll speak on that is when people who have learned about tracking macros and have really been able to integrate that now no longer can not track, right, they feel like everything falls apart. When they can't, they're dependent on it. Yeah, everything falls apart. When they can't, they're dependent on it. Yeah, okay, they become dependent on the three numbers and not the food. And this is really where I started to see some of the issues, because I'm like, okay, this doesn't make sense. The people who have allegedly the most food experience right, because they've been weighing their foods, they've been doing all this stuff they should be able to now eyeball these things pretty easily. Why is this not happening?

Laurin Conlin: 44:52

And there is this connection for a multitude of reasons. It could be a control thing, it could be. Everything in my life is like falling apart. I just really want to be able to focus on this, or it becomes something just don't trust themselves, right, maybe they were overweight before and finally they found something that like makes them feel good and they're like I want to stick to this, like I want to clutch to this so tightly. I never want to go back to where I was before I can understand that.

Laurin Conlin: 45:07

Right, there's also just people who just like their personality, right, they're very whether it's okay or conscientious, or meticulous, like they, just that suits them. So for me to tell someone who's very, very numbers based, yeah, we'll just like, eat whatever you want. They're like meltdown ensues, like what is happening. So again, that's where we have to say what are personality traits. But then also it could just be like an emotional reaction, right, like I am trying to suppress other emotions, so I'm using you know, now I'm having these issues with food and it's not just a tracking thing. This could also now be like food obsessions could be, you know, insert x, food right. Or just always constantly having this food noise, or always wanting something new, or feeling like they have to snack, like whenever someone says I feel like I have to do this, I have to do X you know right, and maybe even it goes beyond.

Philip Pape: 45:52

Food is almost what you're implying, and it's not the food, yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 45:56

It's never really like the food. Well, once this happens, then everything kind of falls apart. Okay, well, food is the outcome, but that's not really the driving factor and you driving factor. And I will say that as coaches, it's not necessarily our goal to figure those things out. We can help highlight that for clients because that work needs to be done anyway. That needs to become conscious for people.

Laurin Conlin: 46:18

A lot of times food issues are subconscious For most individuals. They've operated with that for so long and they have no reason. They're not really thinking about why that's happening until they really really reflect on it. And then they're like wow, okay, because of this one situation, like for a whole life. This is how I've viewed things. Or you know another really common one when people go to events and they're not able to like say no to certain foods, right, it's really easy to be like, just say no. What's so hard about that? And I definitely took that stance for a really long time Like just develop the skills to like say no, and for some people that is appropriate. That is what they need, because they've never done that before and they need to learn.

Philip Pape: 46:56

Yes, a strategy to process and move forward. Yes, not even necessarily need to unravel the root cause in that context. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't do.

Laurin Conlin: 47:08

Sometimes you don't, yep, and then other people there's a lot more there as to why that's happening, right, and then. So that's where we again have to say, okay, maybe. Hey, now I'm going into territory where this isn't necessarily like my scope any longer, right, and I often get this question because I do talk about mental health. You know quite a bit. I have for several years. A lot of coaches are like well, how do I know, or am I always going to know? You don't always know right away, right, if you are working with someone, you might not know and they might not know either, right. And then also things change. Things change people's lives, where then events happen. And then they're like oh my gosh, now this got uncovered and I didn't even know this was here and now, because of this event, then this happened and now we're dealing with this thing, right, so coaching is very dynamic and that's why I think it's so frustrating that people try to make it so straightforward. It's oversimplify, yep, yep, yeah. And it's like why are we trying to oversimplify something that is complicated and doesn't need to be complicated, because we're trying to confuse people, but it needs to be complicated so that we are taking in the entire person and what is going on in their life and really take a holistic approach. I know that word misused sometimes, so I'm like I need a better word, but I think it's coming around in a more positive light again, so I'm going to stick with it.

Laurin Conlin: 48:18

So people can develop food obsessions for a lot of different reasons and I think, as someone who you know say, if any coach is listening right, you're going to want to start to look for changes in language around some of the things that they're sharing with you. That's usually my first indicator is, and that you know that starts with you need to make sure you're asking the right questions, you know, to your clients. But then if you start to notice that they're maybe sharing some language that isn't normal, or they're just sharing, they're really carping on certain things. They're like they brought this up like three times in the past two weeks Like that's not normal for them. You know, because if someone has an off week, you don't need to jump on their throat.

Laurin Conlin: 48:55

Do you have an eating disorder? Like you know, we don't need to like over catastrophize either, right? So sometimes it's like, hey, somebody had an off week just not feeling it, or this is coming on, but I take it out of it After a few weeks kind of been seeing this trend. Just want to put that out there. How are you feeling about it? Do you notice this Right? One of my favorite things to do with clients and sometimes I like this, sometimes I don't is I need you to reflect on X, y, z and then get back to me next week with your responses, right, yeah, yeah On the head.

Philip Pape: 49:24

It resonated with that so hard.

Laurin Conlin: 49:26

And because I'm not going to put words in your mouth because I really don't know what's going on. You know yourself better than the coach does. Yeah, and this is where you know some people don't like that coaching approach. Other people do. I feel like it is the best for the long-term change, and not just the coaches, I mean, the clients don't like that. Just tell them what I will gotta do the tape. So sometimes I'll be like, hey, yeah, these are some things we gotta do. There's some things we gotta not do. This is something that I don't know currently.

Laurin Conlin: 49:56

Like I use that example of you know, like a holiday, like you know a day off and you know party or whatever and this food, and I just you know I couldn't stay on traffic. And then I'm just like, well, that could be 57 different things. I'm getting a little feedback from you as to eternally why that happened, right. And then you know, usually when people do that, they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't even realize, like what. I really sat down and thought about it. Like I really didn't even realize, like this is actually what that was. And it's not always going to be that easy, right, sometimes it's going to be like months of trying to figure that out with a client Especially if there are multiple triggers, you know that they're sensitive to.

Laurin Conlin: 50:27

Exactly. And again, people have a lot of shit going on, so it's not like everybody. It's just, like you know, we're not working with clients who generally have like ample time to be sitting around and doing this, but this is really important work and that's how we always tie it back Like listen, I don't want you to keep falling into these patterns. So we need to start to look at this and for anyone anyone listening, who's not a coach, who's just doing this on their own and they're like well, maybe I feel like I'm kind of being pulled towards that that's where just any kind of reflective exercise is so important and anytime you kind of notice something you know be like okay, well, that was maybe not characteristic of me, right?

Laurin Conlin: 51:00

I haven't done that before I didn't act like that. Just take note of it. That happens again. Okay, let me kind of reflect, you know, on this and that's why I just I'm really big on reflective practices and I don't think that even I think a lot of times people think you need to sit down and have a whole reason. You're going to journal or do a whole thing. Sometimes, if you do it consistently, the things will come up, I promise.

Philip Pape: 51:18

Yeah, and I want to interject because you continue to hit on the self-awareness piece and that's like if anybody who knows about emotional intelligence, which is something I got into 20 or so years ago I'm old now but in my career, as I was trying to manage other people and I'm like I don't really even get people because I don't get myself and one of the first exercises is figure out who you are and what you're saying is just awareness, whether it's food, your behavior, a trigger why you want to do this physique competition sit down for two minutes with a piece of paper and just write it down can be game changing.

Laurin Conlin: 51:53

So I love that.

Philip Pape: 51:54

Yeah.

Laurin Conlin: 51:55

It's so simple it seems like it wouldn't help. You know, and we touched on a little bit and I said, sometimes when goals are too similar to what you're already doing, people don't want to do them. So they think like, what is the two or five minute journal session gonna do for me? Like that doesn't seem like it's gonna highlight much promise.

Laurin Conlin: 52:11

If you do it consistently, it will really really start to like some of the hardest times in my life when I was navigating a lot of like personal growth and changes, I was journaling a lot and it was really the first time that I like dedicated to doing it and I mean it helped so much because you just start to see these patterns. And that is really where a good coach can help step in and kind of be that intermediary right, because as a coach I'm going to be able to bring those things to your awareness that you maybe wouldn't have seen. And then you know we can kind of say like, oh, okay, now I notice. I notice every Thursday we kind of have an issue what's going on either Wednesday or Thursday that maybe is causing this right when someone could just be on autopilot and not realize that every Thursday shit goes awry.

Philip Pape: 52:57

So that's where having someone in your life can really really help, as that kind of outside influence, Absolutely amplifies it and it gives you that extra support around you to kind of flex into that. It's funny that you mentioned journal and that's a trigger word for me, because I've always said that like I'm not a big journaler, right, and I've had clients that are like, don't tell me to journal, Are you telling me to journal? I'm like no, no, we're not going to journal. What I want you to do is log a note in your food log, in your workout log. I want you to write a note and it's like, oh cool, Okay, I'll do that Language is everything, because every word has a connotation.

Laurin Conlin: 53:29

You know you could tell like me journaling. I'm like, oh my God, I love journaling, yeah, I'll tell someone else journaling. And they're like, yeah, not for me. That was me with meditation a few years ago. I was like so convinced I was like I'm not a meditator, it's woo, it's clearly I'm a little over the place, right, and that's just my natural state and I accepted that about myself and it's super fine, it is a strength in some areas.

Laurin Conlin: 53:50

But I was like I'm never gonna meditate. You know, I can't sit still, I can't sit at all this stuff. And that was the reason I couldn't do. It was because I convinced myself otherwise. And then finally I got tired of my own shit and I was like you know what, I'm gonna try. This seems like a lot of people who have their shit together like to meditate and it works pretty well for them. So maybe they're onto something. So let me check it out. And I eventually started to really dedicate more to it and have been able to get a lot out of it. But it is so funny because for years I was just like no no, no, yeah, it's just.

Philip Pape: 54:20

Sometimes it's just a hard thing you've got to do, you know. You just got to choose to do it and then try it. I know we're short on time because of our three times a charm recording, but what I want to end with is you're going for this master's in clinical mental health counseling. You just gave people some actionable things to try and hopefully open people's mind to realize there is a lot of flexibility, even when we say flexible dieting. Alan Aragon was on the show and his definition was your approach is flexible. That's what I mean. He doesn't mean just if it fits your macros. Dr Eric Helms was on and he's like I don't track anymore, but I tracked for 20 years, so you adapt. How do you see in helping people in the future in a way that maybe a lot of fitness coaches like you are not doing, and that's why you're going after this degree.

Laurin Conlin: 55:04

Yeah. So I pretty much realized that I could get people up to a certain point and then I no longer have the skills to do that. I don't have the training, I don't have the licensure and I know that there's a lot of people who operate in a world where they don't care about those things, but I do. It's important to me, and especially when people are talking about very, very intensive things like currently anybody is allowed to share anything with me. That's on them. I'm not trying to extract that information right, they're just shit. But when we start to unravel and really hit the wall of like, oh okay, I have these eating behaviors because of this, you know, childhood trauma and this assault in these different situations, I don't have the tools currently to do that. And not to say that I need to do that for every client, because I don't. But I just have a very deep interest in this and I just felt like there was a way that I could really help bridge both of the worlds, because in the mental health world it's becoming more. You know, people are, of course, focusing on health behaviors, but it's not really taught to most. I mean, honestly, our coursework is very full. I don't know Like I mean just the master program alone is so intensive, like in terms of hours and like coursework and practical hours. So it's not to say that it was the fault, like we need to add in some nutrition classes, like if it's not relevant, right? But there's a lot of people in that space who aren't talking about that. Just like in health and fitness space, more people are talking about mental health, but are they actually able to help clients fully integrate in that way? Not necessarily. So I really wanted to be able to be a bridge for both, and that was because obviously physical health affects mental health and vice versa. So I really want to be able to hopefully bridge that for some people.

Laurin Conlin: 56:40

And I don't know what the current trajectory will look like. You know, because by the time I'm done, it'll be about five years. So it's one of those things where you know because by the time I'm done, it'll be about five years. So it's one of those things where Because you just started, right, you literally just started, yeah, I just started. And then the master's itself is about two and a half years. And then after, because in the master's program I'm also doing in our program, doing 900 supervised hours also within that and then when I graduate I have to then do another 1500 hours over at least, like between two to five years, and then I can sit for my licensure exam. In that period I can take on individuals, but I will still be working towards a license, so people just have to be aware of that. But then in about five years, give or take, I'll be fully licensed, so and that's the fastest process that you can do.

Laurin Conlin: 57:24

So that is one of those things where you know during my internship hours I don't know where I'm going to.

Laurin Conlin: 57:29

Necessarily, you know work and do all that Like I'm keeping my options open, and so I'm sure, like even in my first month, I've learned so much because there really is so much nuance into the field.

Laurin Conlin: 57:40

So I don't know exactly what I'll be doing, but I do envision kind of bringing both together and also being a resource for a lot of other coaches that I know in the space who want to send their clients to therapists. But maybe some of the therapists don't necessarily understand some of the coach stuff that we do deal with in a normal way, right, which I know, for some people could maybe look disordered if they are not aware of it. But we know again, there's a very big difference of food awareness versus, you know, an eating disorder but someone who hasn't necessarily been exposed to, that they might be like I'm not too sure and this sounds like this, so want to maybe be that person within the space as well for those clients, cause that is a big feedback that I get from people who have gone to therapists, especially if they are the nurse or in that kind of space it's. It is a little misunderstood, which no fault to anyone, because how would you know unless you're in that?

Philip Pape: 58:29

No, a hundred percent, I mean, I think, that's weird I think the fact that you said you're already learning a ton. I could see you bringing that you know to your social media and your podcast and stuff like that. But even to enhance coaching practice right, even without the entering into the scope of being licensed, I'm sure there's an untapped area for coaches of just more on awareness and understanding.

Laurin Conlin: 58:49

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've already learned things in this month that I have been able to apply to clients. And then I also do run a coaching mentorship program and I've already adjusted. One of the weeks I added different stuff that I learned to the lecture. You know what I mean. So it's one of those things where I'm like I'm already, I'm super excited for that. I honestly didn't I knew I would be able to help clients like currently, like that I'm working with, with what I'm learning, but now I'm actually seeing a lot of applications also to the coaches that I help mentor as well. So I'm like, oh okay, this will be good.

Philip Pape: 59:23

So it's all going to be a big learning, eye-opening experience. Well, and if you're not too busy in a few months, maybe we get you back on. You can like share some of that I love to come back on. We had so many topics so I'm more than happy to come back on for part two anytime is there anything just to wrap up, anything you wish I had asked or anything you wanted to leave with?

Laurin Conlin: 59:39

no, I just I really appreciate the conversation. I love all the directions that it went. I love that you care about these types of topics because they are so important but they sometimes get under discussed because the very concrete, flashy things are more exciting to talk about. You know how much protein to get? It's like let's move on.

Laurin Conlin: 59:59

This new thing came out or this whatever and I'm not against those kinds of things at all but I really think that in order to help more people, we need to really kind of take a step back and look at, like, what is like the big picture of, like how we're thinking and why we're doing things. And if I can help encourage anyone as an individual or as a coach to be able to, you know, look at things from that perspective and that lens, then I feel like I've done my job.

Philip Pape: 1:00:24

Awesome. Yeah, I mean behavior change and psychology is the root of. I know me personally. When I talk to more and more clients, it's like just lay it on me. They'll be like am I telling you too much? I'm like, no, this is going to help you, so just lay it on me and I'll help where I can. It's all about the up here, all right? So where can listeners learn more about you, Laurin?

Laurin Conlin: 1:00:42

Yeah, so my Instagram, I would say, post primarily there. So, just at Laurin Conlin, l-a-u-r-i-n, c-o-n-l-i-n. I also just started documenting again on YouTube. So back in the day I used to do YouTube videos and I'm coming back just with going back to school and I'm navigating a business and relationships and all this different stuff and going to school. Here's some things I'm learning, here's how I'm doing stuff.

Laurin Conlin: 1:01:06

So that's back on my YouTube, just my full name as well, taking a little pause on the podcast because of all this, but the Logo Fit Show does have over 300 episodes, so there's plenty of information on there and I have great guests. We actually have also a mental health counselor who I typically do episodes with as well, so we have that in there as well. And then the other coaches on the team and, yeah, so it's pretty much like the main places. And then, of course, our website, redefine Healthy Brands, if anyone is interested in one-on-one coaching for their lifestyle or competition. And then, lastly, I don't know when this is coming out, but I am running my third round of my coaching mentorship the Art and Science of Coaching. So that will be starting on October 7th. So if anyone's interested in that, feel free to send a message or an email and I can shoot you more info.

Philip Pape: 1:01:53

I'm sure there are coaches that listen to the show as well, because I know, as a coach, I like other coaches shows, so we'll put all of that in the show notes. Lots of fun. This will be out in a few weeks from when we record it, so whoever, but when you're listening to it, you've just traveled in time and you've got it right now, and thank you so much for taking the time, even after repeating three times.

Laurin Conlin: 1:02:11

Of course, third time was the charm. It was great. Thank you so much, Laurin.