How to Lift Heavy, Run Fast, and Train as a Hybrid Athlete with Cody McBroom | Ep 220

Are you torn between focusing on strength or endurance? Are you wondering if you can lift heavy while building stamina? Or maybe you’re struggling to find a way to improve both without sacrificing one?

Philip (@witsandweights) brings back Cody McBroom to show you how you can excel in strength and endurance without sacrificing either! If you're ready to optimize your training for both muscle growth and cardiovascular performance while setting high standards in every area of life, this will give you the blueprint to make it happen.

Cody McBroom, founder of the Tailored Coaching Method and host of the CHOOSE HARD Podcast (formerly Tailored Life Podcast), shares his unique approach to hybrid training, revealing how to balance your workouts to achieve impressive strength and endurance goals. Learn how Cody's fitness journey can help you build mental toughness, improve your fitness, and tackle seemingly conflicting goals.

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Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:35 Balancing strength and endurance training
8:17 Choosing hard for success
14:23 Cardio and long-term health
21:05 Mental toughness strategies
35:53 Impact of small decisions
39:12 Starting hybrid training
45:42 HIIT vs. low-intensity cardio
49:22 Programming and cardio volume
50:32 Functional fitness in daily life
54:53 Final thoughts on choosing hard
56:34 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: tailoredcoachingmethod.com

• Podcast: tailoredcoachingmethod.com/podcast

• Instagram: @tailoredcoachingmethod

Episode summary:

Unlock the secrets of hybrid training with fitness expert Cody McBroom, founder of Tailored Coaching Method. Imagine excelling in both strength and endurance without sacrificing one for the other. This episode delves deep into Cody’s unique approach to balancing these two crucial aspects of fitness, drawing from his own journey and the experiences of renowned bodybuilders and CrossFit athletes.

Hybrid training isn't just about doing both cardio and strength exercises; it’s about finding the right balance that allows you to maximize your performance in both areas. Cody McBroom reveals the importance of optimizing nutrition and mental toughness to achieve your fitness goals. Nutrition plays a critical role in both muscle growth and cardiovascular performance, and understanding how to fuel your body properly can make all the difference.

One often-overlooked aspect of hybrid training is the benefit of cardio for muscle growth and overall recovery. Contrary to popular belief, cardio can enhance blood flow, improve energy systems, and boost cardiovascular health, all of which contribute to better muscle growth and work capacity. Cody shares fascinating studies that shed light on the evolving views of integrating more cardio into strength training routines. This episode will change the way you think about the role of cardio in your fitness regimen.

Setting realistic fitness goals while balancing life responsibilities can be challenging. Cody McBroom discusses strategies to maintain muscle and cardiovascular health, even when dealing with injuries or other setbacks. He emphasizes the importance of taking breaks for recovery and setting achievable goals that align with your personal and professional life. The conversation highlights the complexities of managing conflicting objectives, like increasing deadlift reps while training for a 5K, and offers practical advice on how to navigate these challenges.

Choosing hard tasks can significantly impact cognitive health and personal growth. Cody discusses the concept of "super agers" and how consistently challenging oneself can slow cognitive decline and enhance overall well-being. Activities like cold plunges and rigorous exercise boost neuroplasticity, dopamine, and serotonin levels, leading to increased happiness and productivity. This mindset of choosing hard extends to everyday decisions, influencing not only personal health but also how we interact with others and tackle life’s challenges.

Balancing work and personal life is another crucial aspect discussed in this episode. The story of a Netflix co-founder who reserved Tuesday afternoons for personal time serves as an inspiring example. The idea of choosing priorities wisely, even engaging in activities we may not enjoy, can have long-term benefits. Overcoming hard tasks now can prevent future regrets and foster a sense of extreme ownership and responsibility in various aspects of life.

Hybrid training offers a holistic approach to fitness and life improvement. Cody McBroom emphasizes the importance of starting small, such as increasing daily step counts, to create impactful habits. For those already active, incorporating both weightlifting and cardio into a well-structured routine can yield significant benefits. Strategies like using non-eccentric modalities, such as the sled or assault bike, are recommended for those with joint issues, highlighting the importance of thoughtful and intentional training.

Smart programming of cardio and strength training is crucial to avoid unnecessary fatigue. The modality of cardio—whether high-intensity interval training (HIIT) or another form—is less crucial than the overall volume for cardiovascular health. Recent research supports this view, showing that the key to effective training is balancing the different forms of exercise based on individual goals. Building work capacity through strength training can be as demanding as cardio, especially when performed intensely.

In summary, this episode is packed with actionable advice and inspiration to help you excel in both strength and endurance training, achieve a well-rounded fitness regimen, and lead a fulfilling life. Cody McBroom's insights into hybrid training, the benefits of cardio, and the power of choosing hard tasks provide a comprehensive guide for anyone looking to improve their fitness and overall well-being.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been feeling stuck with your training, wondering whether you should get strong, build muscle or focus on endurance, and you've watched your gains plateau, leaving you wondering if it's possible to deadlift heavy and run fast without sacrificing one for the other, then this episode's for you. Today, we're sitting down again with Cody McBroom to uncover how you can not only balance strength and endurance, but potentially surpass your previous best in both. When you understand how to approach hybrid training, you can tackle your fitness goals with confidence, knowing that you don't have to choose between being strong and having stamina. So if you've been limiting yourself to just lifting or just cardio because you think they don't mix, what we're about to share will give you the blueprint to excel in both without sacrificing either one. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today Cody McBroom is back on the show to talk about hybrid training and setting high standards for yourself in the process.

Philip Pape: 1:10

Cody is the founder of Tailored Coaching Method, host of the Tailored Life podcast and a man on a mission to redefine what it means to be an athlete and a high performer in all areas of life. He recently set some ambitious goals for himself, including a 405-pound deadlift for reps and a sub-45-minute 5K. Today, you'll learn how to balance strength and endurance training to achieve seemingly conflicting goals. We're going to explore time-efficient strategies for hybrid training and how to optimize your nutrition, both for muscle growth and cardiovascular performance. You'll discover some ways to build mental toughness that translates beyond the gym, and how to set high standards without falling into perfectionism. We'll also discuss using hybrid training to lean into hard and take the path of most resistance. Cody, welcome back to the show, my man.

Cody McBroom: 1:58

Thank you, brother. I'm excited to be here and I'm excited to talk about these topics. I will say, man, I think I need to hire you to do my intros on my podcast, because you crush it every time. Man, that was phenomenal.

Philip Pape: 2:11

I appreciate it, man. No, I have fun with it. It's kind of like coming up with the titles that are not too clickbaity but enough to get your attention. You know, and it's well-deserved, and people want to know, like, what they're getting into today? I think we represented it well. I, what they're getting into today. I think we represented it well. I've been listening to your show for quite a while and, for those listening who want to really deep dive into the hybrid training, cody's been talking about this a lot lately, so definitely check out his podcast. But here's the thing, cody. Here's the main question, right? A lot of listeners think that they have to choose between being strong and building muscle or developing aerobic capacity and endurance. What would you tell them?

Cody McBroom: 2:47

You don't. I think you can do both. I think that, as you know, in our profession it depends on so many factors, right? So I always hate being the guy that's like, well, it depends, and then it doesn't give somebody a concrete black and white answer like they want. But the reality is, you know, I think that I always like to look at things in two lenses scientific lens and then also the just anecdotal experience. Let's just look at things. You know I've used this even with bodybuilding. People will talk about like well, I don't know about high carb diets or like all this cardio or anything that they and I'm like just look at bodybuilders. Like, just look at bodybuilders. What about insulin, you know, and insulin sensitivity? I'm like, bodybuilders inject insulin, so if it was making you fat, they wouldn't do it.

Cody McBroom: 3:25

Now, I'm not promoting that, I don't do that, I'm not. You know what I mean. So I'm not promoting it. But I think that's a. If we're being evidence-based, it's not just science, it's anecdote as well, right Combined. So I say that to say, look at CrossFitters. There's a lot of Jack CrossFitters. I like watching CrossFit games and stuff. You know what I mean. I think it's great. Those, they're freak athletes. It's awesome.

Cody McBroom: 3:49

But they have at least proven that you know, concurrent training, which is training for two modalities that have opposing goals or effects, can work, like you can do it, you know. And so the easy answer is yes, you can do it. The long answer would be you be. It depends on how much improvement you need in one or the other. So if somebody comes to me and they're on flatline on both and they want to improve both equally, I would tell them hey, I don't think you're going to equally improve both at the same rate. I think one is likely going to improve and increase at a higher rate than the other If you put more focus into that right.

Cody McBroom: 4:27

So for me, for example, like my training is much more geared towards endurance and conditioning right now, because I have a half marathon in like just under five weeks and I'm doing high rocks February 1st of next year. So I have like five months, I think, for that one. And if I need to work on anything in this hybrid journey, it's endurance. I've never been a runner. I've competed in men's physique bodybuilding twice, I've put a lot of people on stage, I've trained for photo shoots and always just focused on hypertrophy and building muscle Like. That's what I'm, I've been good at. So cardio for me was getting my steps in and, you know, on a treadmill to burn calories during a cut, which is an easy way to do it and it's very easy to recover from. I think it's a really smart way, but it's not really hammering the endurance component home. So two thirds of my focus volume training all that is going to be leaning towards endurance, because I need the most improvement there, while one third is going to be towards hypertrophy, just to maintain the muscle I have.

Cody McBroom: 5:20

This is the other side of it. How experienced are you? For me, I'm not trying to do both. I'm not trying to build both. Maintain one, build the other and I would say that most hybrid and I think this is a really, really important key because we know newbies can probably get results from anything right, You're new to it, you're going to jump into something, you're going to get results. So if somebody is brand new to lifting entirely, running entirely, yes, do both. You're probably going to do both. And as you get to like an intermediate stage, you're probably going to have to lean towards the one you want to improve more than the other, but at a level like myself. Like and I'm just going to call this out If I get shredded in the process of doing hybrid training, I look like a crazy athlete, which would be awesome, right, and it probably will happen, to be honest, because I'm burning so many more calories than I have in a long time.

Cody McBroom: 6:04

It's not hybrid training that got the muscle on my body, and I think that's really important. So, when we look at these people who are hybrid athletes online and people are like, oh, I want to look like that. I got to do hybrid training. Like well, hold on, like let's look back, because you know, if Five to ten years before they were strictly doing bodybuilding, they have laid a foundation of muscle way before they started running. So they just maintain that muscle during all the hybrid training and that's why they look like that while being a hybrid athlete, and I think that's something a lot of people miss, and that's even the case for me.

Cody McBroom: 6:34

I'm not going to sit here and act like this is how I'm building more muscle. No, when I build muscle, I'm doing more volume in the gym, lifting and less cardio, right, but I believe, like it's really easy to maintain muscle and research has shown that. And research has also shown, if you split up your training sessions by four to six hours, as far as like running and lifting, that's the safest way to be practicing concurrent training without having a negative impact on either one of them, right? So we have four to six hours between meals, in between stuff like that I'm going to easily be able to maintain my muscle, and if I look like I'm jacked while doing it, it's just because I maintain that muscle and I got leaner from burning so many calories. That makes sense.

Philip Pape: 7:14

It makes total sense to me and I was kind of in the trap of CrossFit years ago thinking if I start CrossFit and do CrossFit, I'll look like a CrossFitter right, and in reality the best of those athletes, right when you look at their routine there's a lot of training, a lot of strength training, there's an off-season, there's periodization. They split up the nutrition and it's funny because I went full circle and eventually, you know, I would got to the point where I would trash CrossFit, which is also not necessarily the reaction we want to have. What I hear you're saying is you can kind of have it all. You may have to focus on one thing more than the other, not necessarily to the exclusion of the other. Newbies will grow no matter what and you're not going to lose a lot of muscle. You're not going to lose all your gains just because you throw in cardio. And you can throw in quite a bit of cardio. Which, cody? I talked to a guy named Ben on the show and he puts in 60 hours of running a week and he puts in 60 hours of running a week and he's still jacked. He holds onto his muscle, even went into a cut early on in that and gained a little muscle, so you never know right. So what?

Philip Pape: 8:15

I think a lot of listeners are probably going to ask besides, are you going to lose your gains which you're like? No, you're not going to do, that is all right. What do I start with If I'm a newbie? That's one scenario. And then somebody who's been lifting, which is the majority of people listening to the show. You know what direction should I take, because you know, I see Cody, he's jacked. He's been doing this for years. Maybe he's been lifting for 10 years. Should I be doing one first, almost exclusively? Should I do both, or is that going to slow me down?

Cody McBroom: 8:50

People are worried because they hear this and like, ah, give me the nuance, cody, what should I do? Yeah, I think it's a great question, man. I think you know I've gotten that a bit too similar questions. I think that it all depends on what your like if this person was to look in the future and answer the question, what does the best version of you that you're after look like you know? And not look like just physique wise, but feel like, look like, act like you know, all that kind of stuff. And I think that determines what my answer would be and how much you should do.

Cody McBroom: 9:11

Because if we just look at what builds muscle right Mechanical tension, stress and tension placed on the muscle Volume is the metric right. So a lot of people say volume is the key driver to hypertrophy. It's not. Mechanical tension is the key driver to hypertrophy. Volume is the metric we use to track how much mechanical tension you're creating on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. So if you need, this is just a hypothetical number. Not everybody needs this much more advanced. People do 20 sets per muscle group per week in order to develop more muscle tissue, to build more muscle than you have. And now you're trying to improve your running. Well, do you have enough time during the week to do that? Maybe not. And then the second question is okay, well, are there some muscles you don't care about growing and or don't need to grow? Let's do less 10 sets per week on those 20, on the ones that you want to grow, maybe now that you have time.

Cody McBroom: 9:57

And this is me also letting people know when I run, I still lift in the afternoon nine times out of 10. Like this morning, I had a tempo run and I ran early, 6 AM, and I'm going to lift today at 3 30 PM, and it's not always easy to you know. Talking about the whole mentality thing, I call it choose hard. But like I have to choose hard, I didn't want to run this morning at all. I was tired but I did it and I'm glad I did. That's part of my goal, and I have to do two days in order to get enough of both to be where I want to be. So people have to understand that.

Cody McBroom: 10:28

Now, if somebody is asking this question, I go what's your future self look like? And they're like well, I want to be jacked, I want to be strong, I want to build muscle, I want to be lean. These are all characteristics that really don't need any endurance training. But maybe they say, but I don't want to lose my health and I want to be able to keep up with my kids and their soccer scrimmage, you know, and practice basketball, whatever it is, and at that point I would go okay. So really you need to train like you're training for physique goals, because that's your primary goal, and you need enough. Obviously, we can't ignore nutrition, but we're not going to really go down that road but, like, nutrition is a big key to health, but you need enough cardio and aerobic training in order to support health, in order to support enough endurance to keep up with your kid in a soccer scrimmage, right? So let's just define what that is, cause I'm trying to go run a half marathon, which is 13 miles, and I got thrown into it at a pretty quick timeline, partially because my friend was like oh, you'll be fine, do it with me.

Cody McBroom: 11:25

And I'm like all right, whatever. But after that I want to do high rocks. Eventually, I don't know if I'll do a full marathon, maybe I will, whatever it is. But there's a difference between I want to run 13 miles straight and I want an appreciable time. I looked up what a time is and I'm like, okay, I'm going to. And I talked to my friend, he's a runner. I'm like, screw it, I'll do a half marathon, screw the 5k. And so now I'm doing the half and I was like, what is the average male time, what is good? And if you get less than two hours, you crush it as an average person. So I'm like, okay, so I just want to get two hours. I get two hours and a half marathon and so that's a high standard goal. You don't need to run a half marathon if you want to keep up with the kids. You get what I'm saying.

Cody McBroom: 12:05

So I think that people get it confused and it's like, if it's just a health component, honestly you could go on one long run per week and you're going to get the health benefits. And I'll just add this too there was a cool study that showed and I love when they do studies like this they put somebody. They do this is because it's not like me versus you in a study, it's me versus me. So genetics, dna, like responsiveness, everything is controlled because it's just me and my right leg pedals and they're developing aerobic benefits in that leg, cause there's a lot to be said about just improvement with blood flow, mitochondria, all these things that do lead to better muscle growth and muscle activation.

Cody McBroom: 12:47

And so they did that on the right leg or the left leg, I can't remember which one it was and then they did single leg leg extensions like press stuff like that, and there was a more favor for hypertrophy in the leg that actually did the cardio and they did it and they separated all that stuff and what they contribute that to is the aerobic benefits that you get when doing cardio from a blood flow perspective, energy systems perspective, the cardiovascular nature of just recovering faster between reps, sets, days of the week, allowing you to deliver more oxygen to the muscle, build more, but also do more volume because you're recovering faster right. All these things led to more muscle growth, more volume being accomplished. So there's still benefit to doing cardio when it comes to trying to build muscle Right, and so I think everybody should do a little bit. But I run five days a week and I'm varying the distances and the paces and all, so you don't need to do all that right, unless you have goals of pursuing a hybrid journey, something like that.

Philip Pape: 13:37

I just I take everything to the furthest Good, it's good Cause then we learn from you. We're like okay, that's my goal, this is the pushing the limit. Where do I want to fall on that spectrum? Right, and there is this thought with a lot of people and I've even said this in the past and my tune has changed of like okay, if you're a lifter, if you lift heavy, if you get in the volume, you're also building your work capacity. You just got to walk.

Philip Pape: 13:59

But it is true to you, brian Borstein, brandon Cruz, a whole bunch of other guys who are like yeah, I'm kind of into this idea of more cardio. Now you know a little. More cardio, not just during fat loss, not just to burn calories, but because it seems to help your lifting and helps your recovery. Like you said, it gives you just general health and even surprising benefits that we're still learning in the research. And you don't have to become an endurance athlete unless that is your goal. Would you say so? Let me ask you this. So I did CrossFit for like eight years. It definitely helped with my conditioning tremendously, to the point where I can go long stretches of being a lazy fat ass and not doing any cardio at all Okay, and still feel like I'm pretty healthy and my resting heart rate and VO2 max are like right there. What do we know about the lasting effects of kind of training versus being detrained in a cardio capacity? Does that make sense?

Cody McBroom: 14:50

Yeah, you know I have mixed feelings on this because in one sense I do and I've noticed this too like I do believe that cardio adaptations happen quicker in the beginning as well. So typically your thought might be that, hey, well, if you improve quickly, you might have the opposite effect. If we look at dieting and metabolic adaptation, it kind of leads that you know a lot of people can. If we cut your calories and you easily lose weight and there's no problem because your metabolism slowly adapts, well, it's going to bite you in the ass on the way back up in the reverse diet, maybe right. And vice versa, you might struggle because I got to really cut calories to drop body fat. But if we increase calories in the reverse, your body adapts, your metabolism works with you, and then you might be a quote unquote hyper responder, which is really just you moving more as you consume more calories and not realizing it typically. But I say that to say I don't know if it works the same with cardio. I do believe that I mean I've adapted very quickly just from a standpoint of, like, my ability to improve my running has happened very, very quickly. I started getting plantar fasciitis and this is not the first time I've got. I actually got that in my physique prep my last bodybuilding show as well just from so much walking towards the end of an inclined treadmill. And I took a week off last week actually to just you got to just lay off. It's the best way to do it Ice and lay off. And I went back into it this week and I felt great. I felt just as good, if not better, and so I was assuming like I'm going to have to play catch up a little bit. It's only a week so it shouldn't do too much. But I figured, you know, I've never done much conditioning Like it's never been my thing. I've had to program a lot of it just because of clients and stuff. So I've learned a lot about it but I've just never enjoyed it because I suck at it and I don't think it's fun.

Cody McBroom: 16:33

But I do think that, to your point, I think the health benefits that you get can be easily maintained and it would be. You know, I think it's the same thing with muscle. We all know those guys who, like those old guys, that they might have a gut but they're just kind of jacked. Still. They got big shoulders, big chest, big back. You know, all that stuff is clearly like still there, their muscle doesn't disappear like that. You know, it's just one of those things I would imagine.

Cody McBroom: 16:56

Cardio is very similar. I think once you get those benefits, I think it's really good. Now there's also a lot that can counteract that. So great, you're doing a lot of cardio, but when you stop, maybe your cardiovascular adaptations don't just go away, but if you get actual fat, you're going to have negative health benefits from the fat you're carrying. And now if you go try to run, you're also going to have to run with 20 extra pounds. So you know, did your cardiovascular health diminish or did you just get fat? Good point, but I agree with you.

Cody McBroom: 17:23

I think in general I do think it's going to be easy to maintain. It's the same thing with muscle Muscle is very hard to build. It's easy to maintain for the most part. Fat loss is not easy to maintain. You got to like I would say it's easier to maintain than it is to do.

Cody McBroom: 17:36

But I say all this to say I think they're all kind of in their own box. I think they're all slightly different. I think it depends on how you're running and how you're programming it too, and I also think it depends on how long. If you did CrossFit for five years straight, that's an adaptation that's going to stick. You know, it's the same thing with muscle, like I just I like to tell people it's very unscientific, but if you build a lot of muscle and you're able to maintain it for quite a while because you're lifting, you're doing stuff, you've kind of solidified that mass on your body, it's going to be really hard to get rid of it. Like you're going to have to like literally starve for it, to like atrophy right or have a disease. So I'm not familiar with any scientific research that has actually studied this exact topic, but I would imagine, just based on everything else, that if you stick with it for long enough, it's probably going to stick around pretty long as well.

Philip Pape: 18:19

Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, muscle-wise, I think we're still coming to learn what the mechanisms are, you know, satellite cells and creating new muscle fibers and so on, which is pretty amazing, right? They're effectively there, You've created them and now they're there and they come back. Cardio I definitely have heard that the adaptation comes and goes or it comes quickly. So therefore, I imagine you factor that in to your strategy with you're trying to go after deadlift for reps, You're trying to go after 5k at the same time. We call these seemingly conflicting goals, but I think the way you've talked about it is they're not conflicting. You just have to fit them in and you have to balance them against your constraints, Like your time. You have time for two days, Maybe. Maybe the busy dad or the parent has 45 minutes a day, yeah, so yeah.

Cody McBroom: 19:07

That's kind of why I mentioned that too. I want people to know I say that stuff because I think there's a lot of people online who don't, and I want people to know that, like, behind this wall is a gym, it's like a literal 2000 square foot gym that I film content and do that stuff. So for me to not be able to do it two a day, it would be kind of ridiculous. I would have to be, you know, like so busy that it would be, you know it would be impossible. And I'm blessed my wife is a stay-at-home mom, so that helps me a ton. I don't have to pick up my daughter from school because my wife does. So it's like I wake up at 5 am. So don't get me wrong, I get up early and I start early, but I'm home at 5. And that includes my due session. So I point that out because I have expectations for myself that are a lot of times greater than the expectations of my clients, cause I'm realistic with those things.

Cody McBroom: 19:43

And the other thing is I've done a 405 pound deadlift for multiple reps, and I say that to say not because it's like super impressive, but because my goal isn't to like it would be different if I was like the most I've ever done is three, 15, but I'm going to run a half marathon and I'm going to increase my deadlift by 95 pounds or 85 pounds, whatever it is, and like that's unrealistic, right. And so I say that because I'm trying to get back to be able to do that without hurting my back. Because what got me into the hybrid journey was I hurt my back and it was like I'm not deadlifting right now because my back hurts and I messed up my lower back. I have to go through some, you know, recovery, some mobility. I got to start shifting my training volume a bit to not do so much on my body and if I do all this right, I can pursue this hybrid journey but also I can recover my back and be able to deadlift heavy again for a few reps.

Philip Pape: 20:34

That's really the goal. Yeah, I feel you on the back too. Same thing If I go too heavy and too much volume. At my age, the back feels it, but that doesn't preclude having a 405, 425 plus deadlift if you do it right. Shout out to all stay-at-home moms. By the way, my wife's also a stay-at-home mom. We homeschool our kids and I'm blessed and I know you are too.

Philip Pape: 20:48

I'm so grateful that that leaves me. It frees me from a lot of things that a lot of other guys have to do. So we get it. But again, if you're listening to this, you have your life. That is a constraint that someone else doesn't have, and vice versa. So you've got to work with what you have and personalize it, which I know you're a big fan of. So let's talk about the mental strategies, then, for I'll call it an extreme physical goal, right? Because at the end of the day, a small push in a direction takes a lot less of that mental effort than going to the extremes. You're talking about pushing through barriers, leaning into hard. Let's talk about your phrase the path of most resistance. What does that mean? What are we trying to accomplish? And are we talking about friction? Are we talking about something very controlled and deliberate to get there.

Cody McBroom: 21:34

Yeah. So I think there's a lot of things that we can unpack with this and even to just directly tie it to what we just got done talking about. You know, I actually posted about this today. It's a really interesting thought. As life goes on, you get more busy, you get more responsibility. So you go from having really no bills as a young to having bills to having to work, to not just working and putting in hours but actually developing a career. Then you have a marriage and then you have kids and you eventually have a mortgage. Your time gets limited, right. So when I think of it like this too is like hey, if you're like man, I just don't have time right now, maybe we'll calm down this Like you're never gonna have the time, Just make time now because you make time for what you value most, right, I'll be honest, there's a lot of things I don't do nearly as much of as other people do, and that's because I chose these things instead of those things.

Cody McBroom: 22:24

I chose to build a company. I chose to like be in touch with my clients. I chose to hang with my daughter and my wife really every moment that I'm not working, instead of going and drinking with the boys and going on trips and doing these things because I knew I can't build the company I want to build and go have fun with all my friends and be a great dad. We're limited to how much great things we can do. I chose these great things and so every once in a while I do, and I have a lot of friends that I try to stay in touch with and they know that they respect it now, but that's the path I chose. So I say that to say we all have time. We just have to make time for the things that we prioritize and want most. What I prioritize most is my girls, my wife and daughter, my fitness and my business, and those come before everything else. And some people will listen and think that that's not balance. That's fine. Balance isn't about time. Balance is about spending your time on earth doing what you love and what you get value from and what you can give value back with, and those are the things that I get value from. So, anyway, I think that this whole idea of making time is really important for people to understand, because you're not going to get more as you age, you're just going to get less until you retire and then by the time you retire, you're not going to care about your deadlift or your abs, you're just going to be retired and chilling.

Cody McBroom: 23:36

But with regards to leaning into resistance and all this stuff, I kind of honestly, it was a really cool kind of inception. I started just saying choose hard when, like, I had to make a hard decision and I didn't want to, but I knew I had to, and then I would do it. And then it's like choosing hard makes me better. And then I started like kind of saying it to clients when I would notice they did it. And then I started getting some people that picked up on it and actually like DM me and they would just, hey, I just want to share, I did this after your podcast and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it would be like hashtag choose hard in the DM. I was like that's really dope. And then so I changed my broadcast channel on Instagram to choose hard daily drip. And then I went and trademarked it, cause I was like this is like let me see if anybody has this. Nobody had it. So I'm like dope.

Cody McBroom: 24:18

So I look at it. Is there's Nike, just do it. There's Taylor coach method choose hard, right, and because and this is the part with resistance, right I think that every decision has a hard component. It's really about choosing hard today so that you can have easy tomorrow. But if you choose easy today, which is less resistance, it's comfort. It's being complacent, right, like that's the easy path. Now it's going to lead to difficult things later. Right, like that's the easy path Now. It's going to lead to difficult things later, right? If you choose the non-active route, cause it's easier to be lazy, it's easier to eat packaged foods, easier to eat whatever, it's easier to not meal prep, whatever it is that's going to lead to difficulty in your life. You are going to gain weight, you are going to be unhealthy, you are going to be less confident, like we. The list goes on. We know this.

Cody McBroom: 24:59

The hard thing is doing the assault bike. The hard thing is going to the gym in the morning. The hard thing for me was running at six in the morning this morning. And it's in Washington state, so it's cold here. I hate it, but I got to do it. You know, and it's literally September 4th, I think it should not be this cold already, but it is so.

Cody McBroom: 25:15

But I went and did it because it was hard, and so those things make everything easier, because now, every hard decision that I don't have a choice with because there's things in life that come up that are hard decisions to make, hard conversations to have and you don't get a choice this is your only option, right? Those are going to be easier for me to handle and I'm going to handle them with confidence and with poise, because I consistently chose hard and there's a difference between doing hard and choosing hard, and I want people to understand that when you choose hard, something happens in your brain. There's actually a part of your brain that literally develops and you will literally. They call them super agers. I was listening to, actually Andrew Huberman was talking about and I just started going on this rabbit hole. I actually just listened to this I think it was on Joe Jones Parks like a week ago and can't remember the part of the brain, but there's a lot of research that I was already digging into on this. But one of the fascinating things that he said that I liked was they call them super agers and it's basically a reversal of these cognitive declines.

Cody McBroom: 26:10

Right, it doesn't mean like, oh, you're in reverse time and age differently, but you slow down the likelihood of decreasing productivity, decreasing memory, decreasing your chances of getting Alzheimer's and all these things, just from challenging yourself as crazy as that sounds. So if you're doing a cold punch, you're challenging yourself. You're going to live longer, like as crazy as that sounds. So if you're doing a cold punch, you're challenging yourself, you're going to live longer. As crazy as that sounds, you're developing things in your brain. There's also a component of neuroplasticity. It helps with dopamine, serotonin, all these things. You're going to be happier, you're going to be in a better mood. You're also going to accomplish more in life because things are going to come up and you're going to easily make the right decision without even thinking twice because you've been consistently choosing hard, and choosing hard today makes choosing hard in other realms way easier to do. And so I think that my goal with it and it started with again with our clients and then people who are following me, and I'm just really trying to just spread as much as I can now is if you can get more people to choose hard in their day-to-day. I just think that, one, everybody's going to be healthier. Two, everybody's gonna accomplish their goals more. And three, I do think everybody's gonna generally be more fulfilled in life, because the hard thing could be.

Cody McBroom: 27:12

Me running this morning was three and a half miles and it was a tempo run, so that middle I think it was 1.9 miles in the middle was a really hard pace. It was a seven-minute mile, which which is I'm like pushing it after already running a mile warm up I was dying but like that was hard, you know, and easy was coming up soon, and then I know I have a seven mile run on Friday. That's going to be a little easier because I did these other ones first, and it doesn't just have to be this extreme goal though. So, for example, when I this sounds funny, but this is if you can program whoever's listening, if you can program whoever's listening to this, if you can program your brain this way and gamify it, this is how things really start to shift and this is what I've noticed my dog is like.

Cody McBroom: 27:53

So when we got my dog, when he was a puppy English bulldog Bubba, we got him and my wife wanted him and my daughter was four, I think, and we didn't experience terrible twos, it was terrible fours, and so she was just wild at that age and so, like I remember the, it was like literally day one. We got them on Sunday. I went to work on Monday and my wife texted me and was like I can't do it. We got to bring the dog back. I'm freaking out Like this is nuts. I was just like, hey, I'll bring him to work, I'll figure it out, he'll be fine. So he Just row with me, he's my guy. Then we got a new facility and I was like I don't want his drool everywhere so I left him at home. But when I get home he is ready to play like a little kid. And there's days where he brings his chew toy and he's strong, he's a big boy, he's an 80-pound bulldog.

Cody McBroom: 28:39

I'm like I want to play tug of war. I don't want to, would go away because he's a good dog, he listens, I say stop and he'll go. That would be easier for me to do and I can just relax. Or I could do the thing for the dog that I bought and I'm here to take care of. That's a hard decision.

Cody McBroom: 28:50

When my daughter wants to play Barbies, there's a lot of times I don't want to be Ken. But I could do the hard thing and I could say yes and I could be Ken and be enthusiastic about being the Ken doll when I don't want to. That's a hard decision that I make and that's a very simple one. You know what I mean. Like I could have been tired coming to this podcast, I'm like it would be hard for me to be fired up, but I'm going to choose to be fired up because I'm going to fake it a little bit and then I'll get fired up, which wasn't the case. I was fired up to be here, know it's kind of like in the matrix, the red pill and blue pill.

Cody McBroom: 29:24

In the matrix, Neil gets the opportunity. Do you want to take the red pill or the blue pill Right? So to me, choose hard is one of those pills, and every single day there's countless times where you run into a situation, you run into a conversation, you run into a decision you got to make, and there's the blue pill and the red pill. Choose hard. You just might change the outcome of what's going to happen. You just might shift how your brain works. It just might have a trickle effect that not only impacts your life, but it's going to impact somebody else's life, depending on what that decision is.

Tony: 29:52

My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my forties. Thank you to Phil and his wits and weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 30:37

Yeah, I just want to rip off the headset and just like go do all these things right now. Man, it's so motivational. But seriously, it sounds like not choosing hard is where the regrets are made in life. That's what I'm getting from that. Like people who you know, when you regret things, you look back and you're like it's probably because I didn't choose heart in many cases, yeah, and you really hit me there with the daughter or with, you know, with kids, because I feel the same way. It's like I could be really busy, focused in my work, working from home, and my daughter comes up and is like look, I made this thing for you, or I want to show you something, or do you have time for a game, and it's like that's what it takes to choose. It seems like such a simple thing, but it's. She's going to remember it the rest of her life, especially if it accumulates with multiple decisions like that through your life. So when it's so valuable to take even the small things that to some people are harder than others, like we're not judging you as a listener of what's hard to you. So, for example, if you've never meal prepped and you decide to take that you know hard step on Sundays of like carving out an hour for meal prep and now all of a sudden realize that the rest of the week gets easier and the stress goes away. You're bearing the fruit of that hard, you know hard morning walk when you don't currently get off your seat all day could be the hard thing for you. So it's like expanding that comfort zone and so on.

Philip Pape: 31:50

There was a story one of my other business coaches talked about the co-founder of Netflix, how he would reserve his Tuesday afternoons. I don't know if you've heard this story. Every day at Tuesday he would leave at 4 p, 4 PM or to hang out with his friend at the bar or whatever. When he was single and then when he was married, it was like time to go home to see his kids and for his whole career he left at 4 PM, whereas you know, the classic line from entrepreneurs is you know work a hundred hours a week, right, like your great thing is your career, so forget everything else. And you're saying that even though you're limited to an amount of great things, you do choose them wisely, like choose family, purpose, whatever it is. Yeah.

Cody McBroom: 32:28

Yeah, and there's no judgment for those things being hard, like you said. Like I kind of sound like a dick by saying like I don't want to play barbies. Like what dude, you have a daughter. What do you mean? It's like okay. So any normal dude in their head in the moment doesn't want to enthusiastically be kin, but of course I do it.

Cody McBroom: 32:41

But there's a lot of times and I'm guilty of this too Like not right now, sweetie, like let's not, I've a hundred percent done it Right, and then I've felt bad about it later or I've like shifted the moment, like actually you know what? Okay, right, but to your point, that regret thing is so true, man. Like how many times have we heard like the stories of regret? Or Gary V went to the nursing home and talk to these people and they all regret Like I wish I would have asked out that girl. Well, why didn't you? Because I was lacking confidence and it felt hard to ask her out. I didn't know what to say. It felt hard to come up with something to say Okay, that's your hard thing. You know. It applies to so many different aspects of life and that's why I love it so much, because it really is hard, but now that person lives with the hard of regret. So again, it's hard now for easy later versus easy now for hard later and just not falling in to that comfort zone and a quick story to share about it bleeding into kids and all that stuff.

Cody McBroom: 33:34

But one of the things that I've always done and I actually look at this kind of like it's extreme ownership is what I looked at it as and I'm like I'm going to start doing this is picking up trash. And it's not like I walk around with one of those like things and poking picking up trash. But if I walk by a piece of trash that I can physically grab and like it's not like a tire on the side of the road, right, like it's just trash, I'm going to pick it up, because if I walk by it like if and it's the idea that if I do this, I'll be able to practice this extreme ownership in anything so if I'm walking by the dishes and it would be easy for me to get them done, but I don't feel like it, but it would make my wife happy, I'm going to do it real quick, Right, it's because if I have the power to do so and change something, I do it. That's what extreme ownership is. It's not my responsibility, I'm just taking ownership of it because I can do something right. So my thing was like picking up garbage, so like, even like to the point where I've uh, I got caught on one of the cameras with my neighbors, like I walked by and it was like a slurpy lid in their driveway and I walked but looked at, I walked by and I got like 10 feet away and just stopped and was like turned around and I went and grabbed it, cause I just I didn't feel like it, but I I was like in my head I'm like, oh, dude, you just walked by. You could have grabbed it. Dude, what are you doing? What are you doing?

Cody McBroom: 34:41

And then I had to turn around and get it and my daughter started picking up on this and we were driving by during Christmas last year and this couple has this nativity set, you know, with like Jesus baby and the stuff, and it kept blowing down in the wind and I would drive by and I'd stop, get out of my truck, walk out, push it into the grass, because the wind would blow it over, get in my truck and drive away. They're not out there, they don't see me do anything. My daughter kept seeing it and so she saw me going out of my way. She saw me stop in the middle of the road and drag somebody's garbage can in because I saw it and I was like, well, we're not going to be late to school, let me do it.

Cody McBroom: 35:20

And one day I was pulling out, stop, screamed. And it freaked me out. So I slammed on my brakes in the cul-de-sac. I'm like what? And she was like, oh, they're garbage, you gotta go get it. And I'm thinking I was like, sweet, we're going to be late. And she was like you can leave, it's on the ground. And I'm just like, okay, stop. And I went. That's my point with saying like you might choose hard and it has a trickle effect that somebody might see you do that and you never see them again, but you don't know the impact that that could leave on them and what they end up doing with it.

Philip Pape: 35:50

I think anytime you make that choice the red versus the blue pill, like you said it doesn't only change your neuroplasticity. I think it has a ripple effect. It has an effect on people watching you and it also has effect on the things you will then do that then have an effect on people. It's almost like an exponential, internal, exponential flywheel, if you will. In one realm. You start to build a skill, you start to do something hard, you get better and better at it. Now you want to tell people. Now people see you doing it, now you're talking more about it and before you know it it's just like bled out in a positive way just to the world. Really, and we're getting kind of philosophical here. But I think this does come down to why we do these things physically, because there's also mental translation.

Philip Pape: 36:36

And then I love the whole kid analogy because my mom used to do that with the trash. She used to do that and I've always had that gut reaction. When I see trash I'm like I can't have that. There. To the point, cody, where I was hiking and this group was ahead of me and this guy like tosses a can into the uh, into the woods. And I actually called him I said are you going to leave that there? And he's like, oh no, I'm going to come back and get that. And I'm like I'm just thinking, okay, I'm just going to hold my cool, I'm going to grab it and throw it away myself, but uh, it's a funny story, but it did, it's it's.

Cody McBroom: 37:00

That's awesome and it does trickle down like that. And I think that one thing that I will point out with the research on some of that't know if this is because it literally causes a greater effect when it's physical or if it's just that the studies done on this were primarily physical Cause it's also a lot easier in a study. I'm sure to be like, okay, we got to make these people do the hard thing and see what happens Probably going to be physical, you know, getting a cold plunge, like conditioning something, but they do see a great effect when we challenge ourselves physically. So you know, pushing yourself on the gym, pushing yourself on cardio, even pushing yourself with a diet. They even had research with these super agers and these people that they were showing people are more likely to be successful during a diet. People are more likely to lose the weight in a weight loss journey. People are more likely to accomplish the strength goal and in these different journeys and sustain those things when they actually did so in a way that challenged them.

Cody McBroom: 37:56

So it's not enough to lose weight, it's not enough to diet and make it so easy and this is my problem with like flexible dieting can go too far where it's like one. It's creating false belief. It's never that easy, you know. But also you should challenge yourself. It's okay. You know what. You should eat clean, you should meal prep, you should do some cardio, maybe just for the fact that it's going to create some discipline and that discipline is going to carry over and do something greater for you in your other areas of life. But you learned it from dieting and I do believe that fitness and nutrition are the catalyst for changing everything else in your life, because it's the easiest and safest way to get somebody to really push themselves and challenge themselves.

Philip Pape: 38:38

And it creates these positive effects everywhere else. Yep for sure. Yeah, and the thing about dieting is there are a lot of counterintuitive things like that. People who start diets more aggressively tend to maintain the results better, right, according to evidence. Little things like that, and so I've also tried to incorporate that. But I've also been accused, like you said, of saying well, we're going to make this a lot easier with flexible dieting. That's not really the framing we necessarily want for it. It's more of we're going to take a different approach. You know, that actually gets you the results effectively and efficiently. It may be hard, it may require effort, but the effort is going to pay off. Like the goal is the effort pays off. We don't want to spin our wheels and like do a lot of effort for nothing. However, even when something fails, you still learn from it, which is important. Yeah, so tell us about. Let's get back to hybrid training a little bit.

Philip Pape: 39:18

If someone's listening and saying, okay, I want to incorporate some of this. I want to be a badass like Cody and get mental toughness through the physical side. Maybe I'm already lifting weights, which most people are listening, are doing that. Maybe they're working out four days a week. They've got a little bit of time. They want to do some more cardio. Where should they start?

Cody McBroom: 39:34

Yeah, I think that I mean, let's start from ground zero, step count. I would literally approach it this way. If somebody came to me and they said that and I'm like cool, like let's look at your steps, and their steps were 2000 a day, I'm going to say, hey, you're like, you're sedentary, you know you're, you're going to be wrecked, like it's going to. Really, you're going to have so much soreness You're going to be. You know, and this is the big thing, right, this is a moment where we go screw it, choose hard, start with two miles every day, you know. Okay, then they're going to be so sore that they're going to be like screw this guy and screw choosing hard. So we want to leave a good impression. So I'm going to go hey, what's the lowest barrier to entry? That's going to One. It is going to challenge them, it's going to be harder, but it's also going to have an adaptation. You're stepping 2,000 steps? Cool, we're going to do 5,000. That's more than double what you're doing right now. I promise you, they're going to have to schedule time to either go on mini walks, they're going to have to first not hit 5,000 multiple days in a row to realize, holy shit, I got to figure this out and plan it and schedule it ahead. They might even have to schedule in some treadmill time and walk on the treadmill, but that's what I want. I want them to have to go out of their way and do something, because right now they're not doing it. So we start there.

Cody McBroom: 40:46

Let's say, somebody's like and this is very common in our industry already stepping 10,000 steps a day, already stepping 10,000 steps a day. They're intentional about it. They listen to podcasts like ours. They know what to do. They're doing some of that stuff. Well, this person I'm going to ask do you have any running experience? I have some clients that they want the cardiovascular benefits, they want the hybrid benefits.

Cody McBroom: 41:04

But you know and this isn't always an issue I've had multiple knee surgeries, but maybe their knee surgeries were worse, maybe they. You know, I luckily didn't have to do this, but, for example, I tore my meniscus multiple times and one of the times they told me we might just have to take it out. It's like it's just ripped shreds. We're probably gonna take it out. You'll have bone on bone Five years later. You'll get a knee replacement. Thankfully they salvaged it. But there are people where they just have to remove the meniscus is like a pad between two. It's just going to be bone on bone. That's going to hurt. Maybe they can't run.

Cody McBroom: 41:33

Okay, what can we do? Well, we can do the assault bike, we can do the sled, we can do these modalities that are non-eccentric, right. So non-load bearing on the joint, it's just a concentric contraction. So for people listening who don't know what that is, if you're doing a squat and you're going down that negative, that's eccentric. Concentric is the way up. Well, the eccentric is what's overloading the joints. More. So if we remove that, because every time you run, every step is eccentric loading on the joints, right. So we can remove that by doing-.

Philip Pape: 42:02

And it causes a lot of soreness too, is a good indication. Bingo.

Cody McBroom: 42:04

Yeah, yep, more muscle damage. It's going to be more tension on the joint, the tendon ligament, all that. So we can remove that and do a sled, do a bike, do the road, do a bike, do the road, do stuff like that. That's just purely concentric. There is an eccentric movement but there's no load on that eccentric movement. You pull the sled by pushing your feet into the ground and stepping back and then it's no load. You reset your step right. So we do that.

Cody McBroom: 42:25

But we target the heart rate, we target the duration, we target the distance in meters, we target, whatever it is calories burned. That's still going to have the same exact benefits from an aerobic building perspective. And I want to make that clear because a lot of people don't get into this stuff because they hate running. I always hated running, but I own a sled and I have turf and I still made a point once a week still going to do some sled work. I did the very minimal because I don't enjoy conditioning. But I would still jump on the assault bike, I would still jump, even if it's high intensity, whatever. So doing something like that, one, two days a week, going from the step count to let's add one or two days. You're going to adapt quick, so maybe we add one day, then we add a second day. Then we either decide okay, you're lifting this is very common Four days a week, upper lower split. So we added one cardio. Now we add two, so you're doing six days a week of activity. Do you want to do two days? Or are you happy with this? And if they're happy with that, honestly we can A progress those two sessions by changing the tempo. So it's like hey, right now, this is a really easy way to do it.

Cody McBroom: 43:23

For running, let's say you're going to run 30 minutes, max distance in 30 minutes, but control your pace. You shouldn't be. This is aerobic. I want minute one to be the same pace and speed as minute 30, right, we're trying to sustain it. Most likely that's not going to happen because it's hard to pace it perfectly, but we're sustaining that pace, staying in, you know, let's say, 70% of max heart rate, kind of in that aerobic zone. Do that next week.

Cody McBroom: 43:45

We're going to say, hey, what was your like, how many miles did you get? Now we want to try to increase that. We either go 40 minutes, we get further distance, or we go, hey, increase your pace so you accomplish 2.5 miles instead of 2.2, whatever it is, and we can just progress to just like a linear periodization. We can't do that forever without adding more days of running, but we can progress it a little bit in that regard. Then maybe we do some tempo running.

Cody McBroom: 44:07

Hey, warm up with one mile, then you're going to increase your. This is exactly what I did today Warm up with a mile and then for 1.9 miles for me, but it could be a mile for somebody else increase your pace. So my half marathon pace is maybe a minute slower than what I'm running right now, but I'm only doing it for 1.9, right, and then we do a cool down, right. So there's ways to vary it. But truthfully, I think somebody could build up to two days a week and be totally fine there. If they desire doing more or running a half marathon or something, you should probably be running three to four days a week. But if you're just looking for hybrid benefits conditioning benefits that we've been talking about I see nothing wrong with doing these other models and a lot of times I recommend it because it's so much easier on joints that we're not going to worry about injuries or overuse injuries and just like really just breaking down tissue, tendons, ligaments, joints and causing pain, because we're doing these in safer modalities, if that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 44:59

Yeah, it makes total sense. I like the application of form of progressive overload or understanding. There's stress, recovery, adaptation there, even when it comes to cardio. And so, wherever you are now, what can you do, both from a time perspective, but also from an ability perspective or any physical limitations you have? There's no excuses, right, you can find something among all of those. They even have, you know, for folks that have certain limb issues or disabilities, they have special, you know, different equipment for that. Start with a step count, make a decent jump, that's, I'll call it, hard but achievable and then, if you're already doing that, add in one to two days of concentric, primarily tight movements. You don't even have to run at all, which is great, cause a lot of people are like I don't want to do that. Where does hit fit into this?

Cody McBroom: 45:45

Yeah, and I would definitely start by saying don't turn your weight sessions into a hit session. You know, I think there's probably people who I mean, I got this at the first one. I did like a hybrid Q and a and it was like what's the difference in hybrid training and CrossFit? It's like, well, crossfit's a sport, so there's one thing, but two, hybrid training is also not a circuit training class, so like that's not what we're talking about here. And hybrid is concurrent, which means we have one session that we are trying to accomplish a goal. Strength means we have one session that we are trying to accomplish a goal.

Cody McBroom: 46:16

Strength muscle, whatever it is, train for that. So do your leg press, do your squat, do your bench press, whatever. Take a long rest. There's times where you can superset things. I have a program I'm running right now and I do what's called strength circuits. I go from a trap bar deadlift to a barbell, bench press, to a row. Those are less fatiguing exercises, less demanding exercises metabolically, neurologically, mentally, everything. So it works Like if I was to do the bench press, the row and then try to do a tri-bar deadlift, probably hurt myself. There's an order and there is a very fast pace, but then I take a long rest afterwards and I'm actually what I'm trying to do is express strength while under fatigue, and I'm doing that intentionally because I'm training for high rocks and I got to be able to do these exercises while I'm metabolically fatigued. But for most people, like we're training like a bodybuilder and then at another time of day you're going and running right, so we separate them completely.

Cody McBroom: 47:03

As far as HIIT goes, I think that personally, I'm just not a huge fan of HIIT. To be honest with you. I think that it was great. When it first came out, it seemed like it was this thing that was better than low intensity cardio. I would disagree. I think that low intensity cardio is I shouldn't say much better. They both are going to give you cardiovascular benefits, so they're obviously great. But I think that you're going to get more health and aerobic benefits, I would imagine, from low intensity cardio. Most research shows how beneficial staying in that sustained aerobic zone is. The nice thing about HIIT is that you can get some of those benefits still, obviously, and it's way shorter.

Cody McBroom: 47:38

So if somebody, I would say the best time to use that is for somebody who wants to lose fat and they're not experiencing diet fatigue. So, for example, somebody is we're starting the diet this week, we can add in a day or two of HIIT cardio and it's 10 to 20 minutes total. It is very high intensity but it's short enough, it's not overly fatiguing and you haven't been in the diet long enough that you're really having trouble recovering because your lack of calories coming in. Which, if somebody is on week eight of consistent dieting and we're like now, we should add HIIT cardio, maybe not, because they're already fatigued and they're probably already a little bit tired. Let's just increase their step count or program low-intensity cardio and just walk on an inclined treadmill. You know, I think that's probably going to be your better bet.

Cody McBroom: 48:19

And if we really like get into the science of it too, I would venture out to say high-intensity intervals are so similar to strength training If you're training with hard intensity, that you're not getting the variability of training different energy systems.

Cody McBroom: 48:32

So when I go in the gym, if I do a heavy back squat for five reps, I'm probably squatting for 10 to 20 seconds, I don't know, and then I'm going to take a few minute rest. So my heart rate goes through the roof. Heavy load, a lot of tension, a lot of focus and then I'm going to chill and I'm going to bring my heart rate down, all those things down, and then I do it again for four sets. Well, technically, you know, and so I would rather do a cardio modality that is going to produce a different benefit rather than just doing the same one, especially because anaerobic training, which is this high intensity model and what the energy system you're going to train during strength training, it is more fatiguing, especially on the nervous system right. And so to me, I'm like, if we're trying to optimize recovery, manage stress, strictly, burn calories, while also just trying to do enough variety with our training, that we're training different systems in the body. I would say that the best that is going to be low intensity.

Philip Pape: 49:23

As always, I have like 20 takeaways from everything you say, so I'm going to break it down to just like three that really stick out for the listener. The first is even though you're adding in cardio, there's a smart way to program it. We have to think of it as programming still, and I know you have some programs in your app for that. Cody didn't ask me to promote that, I just know he does, because it's true. You have to say do I want to be fatigued and then lift? Or, most likely, do I want to lift fresh and then do my cardio later? For example, also, I don't know if you saw, literally this week, mass reviewed a study from this year that compared the different forms of cardio and found that volume was the most important indicator of cardiovascular health. It wasn't the modality which supports what you're saying.

Philip Pape: 50:04

You don't have to do HIIT. You don't have to do any particular one, you can choose the one that makes sense. And then the idea of HIIT as kind of like strength training in terms of the energy system. I like that one a lot. I don't think we've heard that often. It checks out right, like when you do a heavy deadlift, my heart rate goes up 160, you know, and I'm only doing it for a few seconds, but it reminds me of box jump, burpee days, which I will never do again from CrossFit.

Cody McBroom: 50:29

Those are pretty cool. Yeah, I want to add man, because it is funny that not that many people talk about that, and I'll give credit where credit's due. I remember this might've been so long ago that I was literally talking to him because he coached me before he became a YouTuber. Jeff Nippert said it to me and I was like, oh, that makes sense. That really clicked with me. But even if you look at like and, by the way, I haven't, I actually have the email marked on red for mass, I'm excited about that. I'm going to read it now. I mean, I always read it, but when I see it I'm like, ah, I'm saving that for this weekend. But that's how nerdy I am with my time.

Cody McBroom: 50:59

But the cardio thing, it's like, well, when we think of people who are arguing about like that's not real hit cardio and all that stuff, what do they talk about? They talk about sprint. Okay, well, what does everybody else talk about? Sprinting? Is your anaerobic threshold right? Your anaerobic energy system, they argue, these high intensity models that are going beyond, like, the 10 to 15 second mark. Why? Because you stop being able to rely on that anaerobic energy system.

Cody McBroom: 51:24

The creatine phosphate out about, you know? I think it literally is like eight to 12 seconds, but let's say 10 to 15, just for easy numbers. Well, if we're looking at it like that, that's I mean that sprint is explosive, it's powerful. Get your heart rate up, then you take a long break. If that's true high intensity, that is very, very similar to strength training, very, very similar to lifting. And if it's not similar to lifting to you, then you're probably not training hard enough. Honestly, because you can get that way. You're just doing dumbbell bench press. If you're really pushing it, you should be like kind of gassed, you know, yeah, I mean that's hard training.

Philip Pape: 51:55

It's true, it does build work capacity. I mean, you know, if I start working with a client who's got a lot of weight to lose and we're training and walking at the same time, the lifting sessions are often harder than you know, than the cardio for the heart health, and so there's a reason for that, we have to acknowledge. And you look at, like Westside, they have the dynamic days in there, man just doing sets of you know doing 10 sets in a row a 30 second rest of a bench press, You'll see that that is also a form of cardio when you do it, man.

Philip Pape: 52:23

So it's kind of fun, because then you know you, you have this spectrum of okay, how much of this versus that do I want in there? And, like Cody you were saying, it really depends on your goals. And if you want to go to an extreme, like I want to be a power lifter or I want to do high rocks, you're going to have to, like, make those trade-offs. But you can kind of have it all at some level.

Cody McBroom: 52:40

That's it. You know and I think this will really speak to listeners too I haven't said this way, but this makes a lot of sense because I've noticed this too. But there's a difference between, like, if you go out on a run by yourself and you're like really gassed like halfway through, Okay, you do a workout by yourself and it really gets you. Okay. If you go golfing and you're the guy at the 18th hole that calves are killing them, You're tired, You're sweating, whatever. That's different. That doesn't feel good. You go on a hike and you're that person that doesn't feel good. You want to run with multiple people. That doesn't feel good. I mean, name anything. You never want to be the person who is tired first. Right, and it's not to like shit on people who get to that place. Like I get it. In fact, I've been there. I grew up the chubby kid that's. I was that guy in my group of friends my entire life. So I get it. But I have golfed multiple times since I started running. I have gone in like this sounds crazy, but like mowing the lawn for me. I live on a half acre and I push that thing because I am stubborn, I want to and I'm like I'm doing it, it's easier. Golfing it's easier. I've gone on a couple of runs with friends and we'll go consistently and I've watched myself just get better. And then this last time we ran together and I was talking the whole time they didn't say a word. Why? Because I was feeling good. I was feeling good, I was here to chat, and so I started picking up on that and so for people listening, like there's an aspect of doing some cardio and some of this fitness stuff where you don't have to do a ton, right, but if you do just a little bit of this style of training, you push yourself, it will make all the other things way easier. And then you're the person in the group that is just like crushing it and feeling good and then afterwards it doesn't need Advil and her nap, You're good. I noticed that too.

Cody McBroom: 54:12

We went to Disneyland and I never forget because we had all of us were in the cul-de-sac, all the parents, and they were like we got back and they were like, oh, I remember last year when I went to Disneyland, I was taking like six or seven Advil a day, Like I did. We went back and rested in the middle of the day. I was like I didn moving. I paid for Disneyland. We're going, we're doing the whole thing Like we're walking, you know. But it made me reflect on it. I'm like that's why we're fit Right. It's not just about the half marathon 100%, man, 100%.

Philip Pape: 54:42

I always joke. I want to be deadlifting when I'm 95. And like that's how I go out. You know what I mean? Just functional to the end. You never want to be the person who gets tired first, awesome. So I will leave it at that, but I did want to give you a chance to bring up anything else that I didn't ask you, that you wanted to cover.

Cody McBroom: 55:05

Yeah, man, no, really, just honestly, for everybody listening, just choose hard. Like it can be the simplest things, you know. I actually just talked to a client about this yesterday because he was, I think, applying pressure to himself to do more and I said, hey, doing more isn't always choosing hard. Sometimes you know you're down a lot of weight and we're still pushing, like you're already choosing hard, you're already doing more. But like, choosing hard is the little things, it's the dog and playing with them, it's the kid, it's the friends, it's, you know, he's a trainer. So it's like it's your clients who you need to be enthusiastic with during the session, where you're kind of tired because you're dieting and you're down 30 pounds, so like you're fatigued.

Cody McBroom: 55:32

I get it, choose hard, you know. And so, for everybody listening, just think about the. I think the best analogy if you've watched the matrix and if you haven't start there, go watch the matrix. But the red pill and blue pill, like just start kind of gamifying and think of that Cause. I just think that, you know, as cheesy as it own lives, everybody would be happier.

Philip Pape: 55:54

Cool man. So three takeaways First, definitely watch the Matrix if you haven't yet. Guys, if you're listening to this, I grew up the night. I'm a child of the 80s, so Matrix in the 90s was awesome. And then, second thing, make sure to use the safety on your lawnmower if you're going to book it, like Cody's doing. And then, number three, choose hard, and hard is sometimes the little thing. So that is awesome, cody, I think people know where to find you. But just in case, where can they find you? Where can they look you up?

Cody McBroom: 56:18

Yeah, Cody McBroom on Instagram podcast is tailored life podcast, which hitting episode a thousand and we're making some big changes. So we're going to be rebranding and doing some cool things soon. And then Taylor coaching method is my company. So if you Google my name or Taylor Coaching Method, all that stuff pops up. I'm rolling one.

Philip Pape: 56:35

And congrats on a thousand episodes coming up. That's huge. I know what it takes, speaking of putting in the reps, and I'm sure you've chosen a lot of hard things along the way to make that happen. Yeah, absolutely All right, man. Thanks for coming on. It was a pleasure, as always.

How to Avoid Losing Muscle, Especially On Ozempic and Weight Loss Drugs (Sensor Damping) | Ep 219

Weight loss drugs like Ozempic can be incredibly effective, but they risk muscle loss due to appetite suppression, which leads to a much larger calorie deficit.

And even if you're NOT on GLP-1 drugs, your hunger signals can still be misleading at times, especially when they are psychological and not always physical.

You'll learn about the engineering concept of Sensor Damping to understand why relying solely on hunger cues can sabotage your muscle-building efforts, whether you're on medication or not. 

Learn how to create redundant feedback systems to maintain muscle mass during weight loss, and discover how this approach can be applied to achieve any goal in life. Find out why becoming your own "system controller" is key to long-term success in fitness and beyond. 

🤩 Take just 1 minute to give us a 5-star ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ rating or review with Apple or Spotify and get a shout-out on the show! 🙏

Main Takeaways: 

• Sensor Damping explains why we can't always trust our hunger cues, especially during weight loss

• Ozempic and weight loss drugs amplify this dampening effect (they reduce appetite significantly)

• Creating intentional redundancy in feedback mechanisms is crucial for maintaining muscle mass

• Becoming your own "system controller" leads to more consistent progress and better decision-making.

Episode summary:

Philip Pape delves into the intriguing concept of sensor damping, an engineering principle that has profound implications for fitness and nutrition, particularly for those on appetite-suppressing medications like Ozempic. This episode aims to provide listeners with practical strategies to maintain muscle mass and navigate unreliable hunger signals, ensuring a balanced approach to health and fitness.

The episode begins with an introduction to sensor damping, an engineering concept that explains the reduction of a sensor's sensitivity. In the context of weight loss medications, sensor damping refers to the dulling of hunger signals, making it challenging to gauge appropriate food intake. Philip emphasizes that understanding this concept is crucial for those looking to preserve lean mass while shedding fat, as unreliable hunger cues can sabotage muscle-building efforts.

The first chapter, "Preserving Muscle With Dampened Hunger Signals," focuses on strategies to maintain muscle mass during weight loss, particularly when hunger signals are unreliable. Philip shares practical tips such as ensuring sufficient protein intake, avoiding rapid dieting, and staying consistent with training regimens. He highlights the importance of tracking multiple data points, such as performance metrics, photos, and how clothes fit, to make informed decisions about health and fitness.

Philip also addresses the psychological aspects of maintaining fitness during low motivation and high-stress periods. He underscores the importance of consistency over perfection and advises listeners to develop a robust, data-driven approach to personal health. By relying on multiple indicators rather than just hunger cues, individuals can achieve a more comprehensive understanding of their body's needs and make more informed decisions.

In the second chapter, "Enhancing Fitness Through Sensor Damping," Philip explores how sensor damping affects workout intensity and nutrition. He advises against dieting too quickly and emphasizes the importance of maintaining sufficient protein intake to preserve muscle mass. Philip also discusses the value of planning meals in advance and setting reminders to eat, particularly for those who forget to eat due to dampened hunger signals.

Throughout the episode, Philip shares listener reviews that highlight the transformative power of personalized, evidence-based advice. These reviews underscore the impact of the strategies discussed in the episode and emphasize the importance of building smart, efficient systems for consistent fitness and nutrition.

In summary, this episode of "Wits and Weights" offers valuable insights into navigating the challenges of dampened hunger signals due to weight loss medications. By understanding the concept of sensor damping and implementing practical strategies, listeners can maintain muscle mass, achieve their desired body composition goals, and build a more resilient approach to health and fitness.

Whether you're on appetite-suppressing medications or simply looking to fine-tune your fitness regimen, this episode provides a wealth of information to help you navigate your health journey. Tune in to discover how to preserve muscle mass, maintain workout intensity, and develop a data-driven approach to fitness and nutrition, even when your internal sensors are off balance.

As always, Philip encourages listeners to rate and review the podcast on their platform of choice, emphasizing the importance of feedback in shaping future episodes. By sharing your thoughts and experiences, you can help others discover the transformative power of personalized, evidence-based fitness and nutrition advice.

So, if you're ready to outsmart your body's dampened signals and achieve your dream physique, don't miss this episode of "Wits and Weights." Join Philip Pape as he blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems for consistent fitness and nutrition.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're struggling to maintain muscle while losing fat, especially on appetite-suppressing medications like Ozempic, or if you're worried about losing hard-earned gains during a cut, with or without weight loss drugs, this episode's for you. Today, we're diving into the world of sensor damping, an engineering concept that explains why relying solely on hunger cues can actually sabotage your muscle building efforts. You'll discover how to outsmart your body's dampened signals and preserve lean mass, whether you're on weight loss medication or not. Get ready to fine-tune your body's performance and achieve the physique you want, even when your internal sensors are off kilter. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are hitting on a very critical topic when it comes to body composition one of the most asked about topics and that is how to avoid losing muscle when your hunger signals are dampened. Maybe when your hunger signals can't be trusted, whether from weight loss drugs like Ozempic or Manjaro or one of the many other GLP-1 agonists, or just being in a calorie deficit we're going to use an engineering concept called sensor damping to understand what's happening in your body and then, more importantly, how to work around it. This episode will give you some practical strategies, as always, to maintain muscle while losing fat, even when you can't rely on your usual hunger cues. Now, before we dive in, if you're enjoying the show, I'd always appreciate and be grateful if you could take a moment to rate and review Wits and Weights on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, because, yes, it helps others discover the show and see what they call social proof, but, more importantly, it lets me know what content resonates with you. I also love reading your feedback and I love giving a shout out if you want it on the show. It only takes a minute and it makes a huge difference it really does for small indie podcasters like me to get more of the message out in the world. So thank you, advance, for your support, and I just wanted to give a shout out, speaking of to a recent reviewer.

Philip Pape: 2:30

Clay Yeager titled the Best Health Podcast by Far. That is incredible to hear somebody say that. He said Philip is the best. He's so knowledgeable, vulnerable and personal. He's changed the way I view nutrition and health completely. He puts such time and effort into his content and has such a variety. I love the way that he gives different situations for different people and gives plans on what he would do if they were his client. That is so informative on applying it to your daily life. I'm super thankful for all the knowledge I've gained from him and looking forward to what this life change will do for me in the future.

Philip Pape: 3:01

Well, clay, that is, I love the high standards you've set for me. You know no pressure whatsoever, but I do strive to live up to those and make sure that people get as much valuable from this as possible and not just what you can get on any other podcast. For example, today's episode and every Wednesday episode is something I think is unique out there, and that is taking an engineering framework or principle because that is my background and applying it with my quirky, nerdy little brain over to fitness, but in a way that's very accessible and understandable. And that's what we're going to do today and we're going to keep building that mental muscle, which is our brain, one of the important muscles, at least metaphorically, with our body, along with our physical muscles. And we're going to start today by defining the context of why I put together this episode, and it's because these weight loss drugs, glp-1 drugs like Ozempic, manjaro and Wegovi and all of those, some of which are diabetes medications in fact, and then they created weight loss medications from them and there's a whole spectrum of them and their efficacy across a whole spectrum, but the essence of it is that they will allow people to dampen their hunger signals.

Philip Pape: 4:17

It takes away your appetite right, effectively, takes away your appetite and allows you to go into a calorie deficit, really almost, I'll say, effortlessly. I've seen it both in clients who've been on Ozempic for diabetes as well as clients who are overweight or, in some cases, massively overweight, and their doctors prescribed it to them, saying, hey, look, you've got to get your health in order. And this seems to be the only thing we can do right now. And then they find me and we work together on the lifestyle changes that support what they're trying to do so that eventually they can come off the drug. I never would say, hey, let's just stop taking the drug. First of all, it's outside my scope of practice, but secondly, I do think it's a helpful tool for a small set of people when used in conjunction with the things we're going to talk about today the challenges there's a couple of challenges really is one it makes your natural hunger cues unreliable. In that context. I've seen it.

Philip Pape: 5:12

I have had clients deep into a deficit and they check in with me and on a scale of one to 10, 10 mean meaning least hungry, how do you feel? And they score a 10 every time. It's like no hunger whatsoever, almost to the point where I have to tell them to eat enough not to be in too big of a deficit. Right? And this effect, this sensor damping effect, right? If the sensor is your body's appetite detection mechanism and now it is dampened, which means it just has less sensitivity, it takes away a key source of data by which you usually make decisions. Some would argue that's a good thing, because now it's taking away what has caused you to overconsume all these years. But it also interferes with the process of doing it via lifestyle change, like we're trying to do. And then what happens is you end up losing weight very quickly, almost too quickly, and because you're losing it so fast, you go well beyond that point at which you start to lose muscle mass. So let me be clear it's not that these drugs cause you to to lose muscle mass. So let me be clear it's not that these drugs cause you to lose more muscle mass. It's that these drugs cause you to lose weight faster in some cases much faster and you therefore lose more muscle weight, yeah, yeah, muscle. So let's tie this to engineering again.

Philip Pape: 6:29

In engineering, sensor damping refers to the reduction of a sensor's sensitivity. That's it. That's all it is. And in many cases you do it on purpose when you make a product, because you don't want that sensor to override other information. Right? You don't want it to override to the point where it's beyond noise and it becomes signal, right? You ever heard signal in the noise? Well, in this case, we like to have an appetite sensor usually, but in some cases, where it's just gone overboard and causing us to eat a lot, these drugs will reduce that, but they reduce it to the other extreme.

Philip Pape: 7:03

So when we apply this concept to our bodies, we can understand why we can't always trust our hunger cues, especially during weight loss. And even if you're not on a weight loss drug, you may find that certain cues at certain times are not totally reliable. This is also why I'm not a huge fan of intuitive eating at all costs, because I think there is a lot of skill development and self-awareness that has to be developed over time to become intuitive. Your body is a complex control system and hunger is just one of its key sensors. And then, when that sensor is damped by drugs, by dieting itself sometimes, or other factors, we have to rely on other feedback mechanisms to maintain optimal performance. And just for another quick tangent, my recent episode on why weight loss always fails applied that to scale weight, we can't just rely on one data point on scale. We have to rely on lots of other things to understand the true picture.

Philip Pape: 8:03

So the core philosophy here is about creating intentional redundancy in our approach to body composition. Intentional redundancy Instead of relying solely on one thing like hunger, we need to develop a multifaceted system of feedback and control. Again, this is why I love this stuff so much. Coming from a software and electronic control systems background, I see the body that way, and it gives me more clarity and control, especially when talking with and helping clients. So what does this look like? It just looks like other metrics, like your workout performance, the measurements of your body circumference, your energy level, tracking your biofeedback, having planned nutrition strategies that align with your seasons, that align with your goals, and so this concept of compensating for dampened signals will then go beyond just muscle preservation, even though I use that as the setup for today.

Philip Pape: 9:06

It can be applied to other aspects of fitness in life, like maintaining the intensity of your workouts when motivation is low. So, for example, motivation is dampened. Well, we rely on other things. We rely on the fact that our squat just went up right, or the fact that we've got our training scheduled at 6 am three days a week to override it, the fact that our bicep size is going up as we're doing those workouts right. It also applies to sticking to your nutrition during high stress periods, where the stress signal is dampened. I mean, it's kind of the opposite, but same idea, right. Or, you know, continuing your professional development to have personal growth, even when external rewards are not necessarily there. It can apply to anything. That's why I love these episodes and these concepts, because these can be applied to anything.

Philip Pape: 9:59

But let's focus on key principles, okay, and let's talk about hunger. Let's bring it back to body composition, hunger during fat loss, because what we want to do is not lose muscle. We don't want to lose muscle. What happens when we lose muscle? We become skinny fat. Our body fat percentage actually goes up, even though the weight on the scale goes down. We don't want that to happen, and if you're on one of these drugs, it requires extra awareness of these other data points.

Philip Pape: 10:24

Okay, Not just how hungry you feel or what the scale says. Requires tracking your performance, your photos, how your clothes fit. You know, having systems that don't rely on a single input, like planning your meals in advance, meal prepping on the weekend, setting reminders to eat For those of you who forget to eat, right, oh, I just get too busy, I forget to eat, and then I have to catch up on my calories later, and blah, blah, blah Set reminders. It might sound slightly neurotic, but guess what? If you're not doing it and you're failing to do the thing you want to do, there's got to be something in place to change your behavior right, rather than waiting until the emotions take over, the cravings take over, the hunger or lack thereof takes over, and then you're going to regularly calibrate your approach based on all of these data points.

Philip Pape: 11:11

So if your strength in the gym is declining or you're feeling unusually fatigued, it's probably time to adjust your nutrition or your meal timing, even if you don't feel hungry. Right, even if you don't feel hungry. That's where someone on Ozempic they're not that hungry, so they might not be eating enough, or they're not that hungry, and yeah, so they're not. So they're not eating enough, not only to not be in the appropriate deficit, they might not be eating enough to support even their performance and their training in the gym. And then it's a vicious cycle of well, now they don't go to the gym or they don't push as hard, right. And then the last thing with all of this, of course, is prioritizing the consistency of it rather than trying to be perfect. Because prioritizing the consistency of it rather than trying to be perfect? Because if you can hit 80% of your targets consistently, you're going to be in the top 5% of people, or even higher than that. There's no track, there's no track. Just remember that. There's no track to fall off of. There's simply do your best, hit the target. If you fail to hit the target, you start again the next day.

Philip Pape: 12:11

So the power and understanding that sensor damping can occur with us across a variety of variables, including hunger during fat loss, is that, instead of being at the mercy of unreliable internal cues, you become the controller of your system. Right, you're not beating it into submission, but you kind of. You're up there in your control room and you're looking at all. You're looking at the big mission control board of your body and you're saying, okay, this, this little sensor over here, this hunger signal, is not quite giving me the best information right now, so I need to take these other three or four displays over here and make the best decisions based on that. Of course, working with a coach can be super helpful in this regard, um, or working with someone else who, who's your partner, who can help give you a fresh pair of eyes, and then you're empowered to make informed decisions instead of just do it based on how you quote-unquote feel.

Philip Pape: 13:03

Okay, if you can learn to navigate fitness or health or nutrition with dampened signals, you're actually developing a more robust and reliable approach in general. Right, it's a skill that really goes beyond the context I'm talking about today of preserving muscle during weight loss. It's becoming more intentional, more data-driven decision maker in all areas of your life, and that builds mental resilience, that improves decision-making skills, that leads to more consistent progress in any endeavor you pursue. And then you're thinking, okay, philip, well, are you gonna get to the answer of how do I preserve muscle during fat loss? It's yeah. I just gave you the philosophy, I gave you the first principles. It's track all the things that matter during fat loss to preserve muscle and then adjust accordingly.

Philip Pape: 13:56

Now, practically, what does that look like? That looks like not dieting too quickly, which means don't go past around 1% of your body weight per week loss. So, for those of you who might be on Ozempic or considering it, just think about that, do the math and say, hey, am I going faster than the 1%? That's probably too fast. To maintain muscle, I need to dial it back, which means I need to eat more. It means continuing to train and it means continuing to eat sufficient protein. But honestly, I didn't wanna break down those specifics today because they're much less important than the idea that all of those things need to be considered. And if you need specifics, I've got so many episodes on the specifics that I can send you. Definitely, reach out to me on Instagram at Wits and Weights, or send me a text message using the show notes. So, as we wrap up, let's just recap the main points.

Philip Pape: 14:45

We've looked at how sensor damping applies to our bodies, especially when it comes to the sensor of hunger and appetite. When it comes to the sensor of hunger and appetite, when we're trying to maintain muscle mass during weight loss, especially when you might be on one of these drugs that dampen your appetite. And when that happens, relying solely on that cue can be misleading, and so creating a system of multiple feedback mechanisms is required. The goal is not to just lose weight. The goal is not to just lose weight. It's to improve your body composition, your health and your quality of life. Even if you are at a morbidly obese level of weight right now, and your doctor said you have to do this to lose weight quickly.

Philip Pape: 15:25

I have clients that are far north of 300 pounds on the scale and they are doing all the right things. They're going to the gym three, four days a week, eating their protein, they're sticking within a reasonable range of their calories so they don't go too quickly, and they're prioritizing sleep and their stress and all the other things, knowing that hunger itself isn't going to tell them much at the moment. And guess what that does? That gives them the confidence to eventually go off those drugs more likely than not. Right Again, unless we're talking about specific situations outside my scope of practice I'm not a medical doctor. I don't dispense advice like that, but I do help clients with their nutrition, and those clients then often choose to and, often with their doctors, decide hey, I don't need these medications, along with many, many other potential medications and treatments, potentially. So. By having these redundant systems relying on multiple data points, you make more informed decisions and you achieve more consistent progress, even when one or more of those internal signals may not be as reliable.

Philip Pape: 16:27

All right again, if you found value in today's episode, if you like this idea of hmm, here's a concept from an engineering, from engineering, that I can apply to fitness, but even other things in my life. I have a small favor to ask, and it's the same thing I mentioned earlier Take a moment to rate and review the show on your podcast platform of choice. I really would be grateful if you took the extra minute to do a full written review in Apple, but however you do it, it will help others discover the show and also let me know what kind of shows I should create. Only takes a minute, it just takes a minute. It doesn't take long at all, but it would mean the world to me and, as always, I am so thankful for your support, for you listening to this show, for being part of the Wits and Weights community. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember when your body signals get dampened, it's time to turn up your intentionality. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

What Causes Stubborn Midlife Belly Fat (It's Not What You Think) | Ep 218

Do you ever wonder why that stubborn belly fat won’t budge, even with a solid diet and workout routine? Are you in your 40s, 50s, or beyond and noticing changes in your midsection that weren't there before?

Philip (@witsandweights) reveals the real reasons behind midlife belly fat—and it’s more than just calories in versus calories out. Get ready to dive deep into the science of belly fat, and walk away with actionable strategies to take control of your health and physique without the typical advice that doesn’t work.

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes. https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:49 Why belly fat matters beyond aesthetics
3:01 Visceral fat and its health risks
5:26 The seven causes of midlife belly fat
15:40 Why eat less move more doesn’t work and what you can do
19:57 Reducing belly fat with core strength
25:35 Recap and final takeaways for belly fat reduction
28:18 Outro

Related episodes:

• Why Weight Loss Always Fails (But Don't Ditch the Scale Yet)

• 4 Surprising Ways to Lose That Midlife Belly Fat with Megan Dahlman

Episode summary:

Midlife belly fat is a persistent issue that can have significant health implications. As we age, particularly in our 40s, 50s, and beyond, many of us find that stubborn belly fat becomes a growing concern. Conventional wisdom often advises us to "just lose weight" or "work out your abs," but these tips usually fall short of addressing the root causes. This episode of Wits and Weights delves into the complexities of midlife belly fat, revealing why it's so difficult to get rid of and what we can do to manage it effectively.

One of the primary reasons why midlife belly fat is such a challenge is because it is often driven by hormonal changes. As we age, both men and women experience a decline in hormone levels, which can lead to increased fat storage around the abdomen. For women, the decline in estrogen levels during perimenopause and menopause is a significant factor. Estrogen helps regulate fat distribution, and as its levels drop, fat storage tends to shift towards the midsection. Men also experience a decline in testosterone levels, which can similarly lead to increased belly fat. Testosterone plays a role in muscle maintenance and fat storage, and lower levels can contribute to an accumulation of fat in the abdominal area.

Chronic stress is another major contributor to midlife belly fat. As we get older, our responsibilities often increase, leading to higher levels of stress. This can result in elevated cortisol levels, which are associated with increased abdominal fat storage. Cortisol is a hormone released in response to stress, and it has been shown to promote the storage of fat in the visceral area, which surrounds the internal organs and is particularly dangerous due to its inflammatory properties.

Insulin resistance is a condition that becomes more common as we age and can also contribute to midlife belly fat. Insulin resistance occurs when the body's cells become less responsive to insulin, a hormone that helps regulate blood sugar levels. This can lead to higher levels of insulin in the blood, which promotes fat storage, particularly around the abdomen. Lifestyle factors such as a poor diet, lack of physical activity, and muscle loss can exacerbate insulin resistance, making it even more challenging to manage belly fat.

Sleep deprivation is another factor that can significantly impact belly fat accumulation. Studies have shown that individuals who get less than five hours of sleep per night are more likely to store fat around their abdomen compared to those who get six to seven hours of sleep. Poor sleep disrupts the balance of hunger and fullness hormones, leading to increased appetite and cravings for high-calorie foods. This can result in overeating and weight gain, particularly in the abdominal area.

Alcohol consumption is another factor that can contribute to midlife belly fat. Alcohol is metabolized differently than other nutrients, and its presence in the body can halt fat-burning processes. This means that while the body is busy breaking down alcohol, it is not able to effectively burn fat for energy. This can lead to increased fat storage, particularly around the abdomen. Even moderate alcohol consumption has been linked to increased visceral fat, making it important to monitor and potentially reduce alcohol intake as part of a strategy to manage belly fat.

Age-related muscle loss, or sarcopenia, is another factor that can contribute to midlife belly fat. As we age, we naturally lose muscle mass, which can lead to a decrease in metabolic rate and an increase in fat storage. Maintaining and building muscle through strength training is essential for combating this natural decline. Strength training helps preserve muscle mass, which in turn helps maintain a higher metabolic rate and reduces the likelihood of fat being stored around the abdomen.

A sedentary lifestyle is another significant contributor to midlife belly fat. Many of us spend long hours sitting at a desk or in front of a screen, leading to decreased physical activity. This lack of movement can lead to an increase in fat storage, particularly around the abdomen. Incorporating regular physical activity into our daily routine is essential for managing belly fat. This can include activities such as walking, cardio, and strength training exercises.

Building core strength is not only important for aesthetics but also for overall health. A strong core can improve posture, reduce joint pain, and support belly fat reduction. Incorporating exercises that target the core muscles, such as squats, deadlifts, and targeted ab and glute work, can help improve core strength and overall fitness. Strength training, in particular, is crucial for maintaining muscle mass and metabolic rate, which can help reduce belly fat.

Creating a personalized fitness plan that emphasizes strength training, adequate protein intake, and overall movement throughout the day is essential for managing midlife belly fat. By addressing the root causes of belly fat, such as hormonal changes, stress, insulin resistance, sleep deprivation, and alcohol consumption, we can develop a comprehensive approach to managing belly fat and improving overall health.

In summary, midlife belly fat is a complex issue that requires a multifaceted approach to manage effectively. By understanding the root causes and implementing practical strategies, we can improve our overall health and vitality. This episode of Wits and Weights provides valuable insights into the causes and risks of midlife belly fat and offers effective solutions for tackling this common issue. By focusing on building core strength, maintaining muscle mass, and making sustainable lifestyle changes, we can achieve a healthier, stronger, and more vibrant midlife.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Ah, that extra bit of fat around your midsection. It shows up uninvited, it seems to keep getting bigger and it refuses to leave, no matter how well you eat or how often you exercise. If you're in your 40s, 50s or beyond and feel like your body's working against you, especially in this area, this episode's for you. Today, we are uncovering the real factors behind midlife belly fat. You'll learn why conventional wisdom usually doesn't work and what to do instead, because when you understand the root causes of belly fat gain and, more importantly, why we care about it far beyond aesthetics, you can create an effective strategy to deal with it.

Philip Pape: 0:38

So if you're frustrated with your belly fat, both for your health and physique, today you'll learn just what to do. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling stubborn midlife belly fat. Now, standard advice, like you just need to lose weight or you need to work out your abs, are not going to cut it. The real causes are more complex and they are frequently misunderstood, and so by the end of this episode, you will understand what's really behind that stubborn belly fat and, more importantly, how to effectively address it. Let's just get right into it. All right, we're going to break this down into three areas. The first is why this even matters. The second is the causes, all the real causes. I have seven causes of belly fat to share with you today. And then, finally, how do we fight back? How do we deal with it, if you need to or want to. And then, stick around, because later in the episode, I'm going to share the one thing that will dramatically change your approach to losing belly fat and improve your overall fitness, potentially without needing to lose weight at all. All right. So let's start with talking about why belly fat matters. Because in midlife and by midlife I mean starting as early as your 30s, but generally in your 40s, 50s and beyond it's kind of one of these unique issues because aesthetically, we start to notice that extra pudge, that extra what is it called? Muffin top right, the fluff, the love handles, whatever around this age, and there are a bunch of reasons for that we are going to talk about in a second. But besides the aesthetic piece of it, there's the underlying health implications, because we are not talking about subcutaneous fat, that's the kind of fat that you can pinch. We are talking about visceral fat, the fat that wraps around your organs. Visceral fat is metabolically active, so it's almost like its own organ. If you think of it that way, it's like this little alien creature growing inside. I don't know if that creeps you out or not, but that's where my geeky mind goes. And maybe, if you think of it that way, it's like something you want to keep at bay, right? Visceral fat? It releases inflammatory substances, it releases hormones that negatively impact your health, and this is why even a modest increase in belly fat can lead to some health risks, some very serious health risks and is associated very strongly in the evidence with a higher risk of heart disease and stroke, increased likelihood of developing type 2 diabetes, greater risk of certain cancers, potential cognitive decline and dementia.

Philip Pape: 3:19

And it gets kind of complicated when you get into the research because on one hand you find that there might be, it might simply have to do with having extra body fat. In general there is that, but there seems to be some independent factors, even in people that are a lower body weight, that are in normal quote unquote BMI range, where the belly fat itself seems to be an independent factor. And so it is more about than appearance, right, it's maintaining your health, maintaining your vitality. And then, yes, if you have aesthetic goals, if that bothers you a bit, then that'll be the outcome or the side effect of the lagging indicator Once you address these things. Having said that, I just one little caveat here is you know the belly area is a very loaded topic because you'll get some people saying that, no, it's okay to carry a little extra belly, that's totally normal.

Philip Pape: 4:09

If you're a lifter, if you lift weights, you know having that power belly, having that extra weight, is a sign that you know you're carrying a decent amount of muscle and fat to kind of push those lifts. And even having said all that, there is still a risk factor with having too much of it. But too much is a little bit subjective and it's going to depend on you. And what I don't want you to come out of this episode is that you have to be shredded or you have to have a six pack or you have to be like completely devoid of fat visually in the abdomen area, because there is again still subcutaneous fat. We are all genetically different in terms of where we store fat and how it looks when the fat is distributed. When you get leaner, for example, you still might have some fat in that area and it might look a little more pronounced because the rest of your body is leaner. Kind of an irony there. That's like damn what the heck.

Philip Pape: 4:58

And so it's going to really be very specific to everyone, and I just wanted to put that caveat out there, because even even I, when I get lean, like when I start to see a six pack, I still have this little pudge down there. I'm like, okay, that's just me, that's how I am. You know, maybe I've made some choices that have caused me to have more of that. Maybe I can clean some things up with what I'm doing, but in general, I probably just need to lose a little more body fat if I really want that to go away. And how important is that to me? So you got to ask yourself that question like how important is that piece of it?

Philip Pape: 5:26

But we're going to focus more on the health side, all right, and that's why I want to dig into with this second segment here, what is really happening and causing midlife belly fat. Right, based on the evidence, okay, not based on conventional wisdom or the assumptions people make, even though there are some truths in some of those things, as we'll find out. So I think I've got seven things here that I came up with. The first one is the hormonal changes, and actually this probably is the biggest reason. We see a step change in the amount of belly fat we store as individuals. So for you as an individual, you're kind of used to something up until your 30s and then all of a sudden your 40s and 50s, it starts to shift more to the belly fat, even if you have roughly the same fat, even if you lift weights, you know, you just see it shift more to the belly fat, especially in women, but even for men as well, and it has to do with hormones. So for women, that decline in estrogen, primarily during perimenopause and menopause or postmenopause, it plays a significant role because estrogen regulates fat distribution and so as the levels drop, the fat storage shifts more toward the midsection. Again, this is not a thing that we just throw up our hands and give up. It just means we have to be aware this is happening.

Philip Pape: 6:42

Now, obviously, if you are seeking hormone replacement, hormone treatment, that can help, if that's something that's indicated for you. For some of you you may not be able to be on treatment. Maybe you had cancer or something like that. So everyone's going to have a different situation. For men, decreasing testosterone is the primary factor and keep in mind, women also have a decrease because lower testosterone correlates not because I'm not giving you the mechanistic factor, but in the evidence we see that lower testosterone correlates with increased belly fat, independent of muscle loss, because testosterone influences fat storage as well. So hormones are the biggest change. It's not much you can do about other than therapy, hormone treatment, asterisk caveat, with the exception that the things we're going to talk about later with strategies that can improve hormones can then also improve some of these a bit.

Philip Pape: 7:31

Okay, the second cause of midlife belly fat is stress, chronic stress and chronic stress is prevalent as we get older. Right, because you've got more obligations, we've got kids, you might be the care, the sole caretaker or homemaker or what am I trying to say? Head of household whatever, that's a tax term. Head of household, you have a lot of obligations, you have a lot of stuff to deal with and people to take care of, and it's wonderful because you've got a family and you're becoming that person who you know is surrounded by loving people, hopefully, but it's stressful. You know work obligations, financial obligations and chronic stress elevate your cortisol levels, and we know there's a link between high cortisol and so many things.

Philip Pape: 8:15

I mean, I don't want to go overboard on the cortisol being the root of everything, but there is an association with, you know, higher cortisol on a chronic basis and increased abdominal fat storage, and so, being aware of that, how the fat storage in the visceral area seems to be a protective mechanism. We're going to see this pattern throughout this. It seems to be a protective mechanism, very much like how your metabolism adapts to save energy when you're dieting, and so we don't want to be in a situation where we cause our body to be fighting and away from homeostasis, which it's always fighting to get there. We want to give it the best shot of kind of relaxing and being in a normal state with our hormones and our cortisol. So just keep in mind hormones, stress and stress is something we could do about it. We can't change our situation precisely. We can change how we cope with it, how we mitigate it, and that'll be part, you know, one of the strategies we talk about.

Philip Pape: 9:09

The third cause of belly fat is insulin resistance, and this is a tricky one because there's a lot of misinformation about insulin resistance. We know that as we age, as we lose muscle mass and with a fairly poor or low quality diet and we're becoming less active as well, our bodies become less sensitive to insulin, right, and then that affects how your body processes and stores energy more likely as fat, more likely around the abdomen, and research clearly shows that connection as well. But what we're going to find is insulin resistance is something we have a lot of control over with our lifestyle. Number four is sleep deprivation. Okay, I know I talk a lot about sleep. That's because sleep is super important and the connection between poor sleep and belly fat is actually one of the strongest connections. I don't have it in my notes, but I believe there's a study that showed, over a five-year period, a 32% increase in belly fat storage with sleep deprived individuals, people less than five hours of sleep a day, versus people getting not much more, but like six to seven. It's not like you have to get eight or nine hours, like Tom Brady getting 11 hours or something. I don't know what he gets these days being retired, maybe it's less, maybe it's more. But the point is, lack of sleep disrupts your bunch of hormones because again it's your body fighting to get back to some state of energy that you're depriving it of with this lack of sleep, and so it cranks up the hormones the hunger and fullness hormone. Ghrelin is the hunger hormone, leptin is the fullness hormone. So it goes the opposite directions on both, making you more hungry. You crave sweets, you crave foods that have a lot of energy. You tend to overconsume. If you are in a calorie surplus, you're going to gain more fat around the abdomen with less sleep than someone else who's in a surplus, that has enough sleep. That alone should be a wake-up call to you saying, oh interesting, like okay, I'm stressed, I don't get enough sleep. That, combined with the hormones, is just a perfect storm.

Philip Pape: 11:04

Then we get to number five, which is alcohol. Okay now, on one hand, I think this factor goes a little bit unnoticed in terms of how important it is for visceral fat storage. On the other hand, I think it gets too much play when we talk about things like the beer gut. When somebody's like, well, you just drink too much beer, that is why you have visceral fat, chances are somebody that's over-consuming. Alcohol is probably over-consuming in other areas, probably not as active, probably not lifting weights, probably probably right, I mean definitely people that consume alcohol can have other healthy things in their lifestyle. But there are correlations.

Philip Pape: 11:34

The evidence is pretty clear. Okay, alcohol effectively halts I'll say halts your body's fat burning process because your body is prioritizing breaking down the alcohol before it gets to the other nutrients. This is a known phenomenon and that includes pulling energy from fat. Now, if you're in a calorie deficit and still drinking alcohol, you're still going to lose fat in that case in terms of net energy, because you're in energy deficit. But it could affect your muscle mass. It could affect how your body processes protein for preserving that muscle. So something's going to get affected because you're drinking alcohol and then, as a result, it's shown to be linked to increased visceral fat. Again, we know we call it a beer gut for guys. There's a reason we call it that, because just intuitively, people have seen this for decades or centuries that this happens, and that's even when controlling for calorie intake. I want to be clear that these are independent indicators, even though they also get exacerbated based on chronic dieting or overconsumption.

Philip Pape: 12:34

All right, number six out of the seven true hidden causes here of belly fat that you may not be aware of is age-related muscle loss. And I say age-related because a lot of people, the vast majority of people, are not strength training and we lose muscle mass with age. It's called sarcopenia and it accelerates after the age of 30, something like three to 8% of your muscle mass per decade after 30. And so you just really start to see it. At that point your bodies can no longer coast from its post-puberty 20s, early 30s. Now you start to lose muscle mass because you're doing nothing to maintain it, you're doing nothing to build it, you're not lifting weights, and so it's not because you're getting older, it's simply because the body doesn't need the muscle.

Philip Pape: 13:17

You're telling it it's not important. It loses the muscle mass and along with that muscle loss actually comes more visceral fat storage. That was my point here. Okay, so along with the muscle loss, your body is now storing fat, and it's storing more of it in the belly area. So, in other words, if you were training to maintain muscle and you were over-consuming, you wouldn't store as much belly fat. It's very amazing how these things happen, how the body knows what to do almost intuitively to help protect you, but it's going overboard because you are not acting in a way that is natural to being a human. You're not lifting weights, you're not putting load on your skeletal system, skeletal muscular system.

Jenny V.: 13:58

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for the 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment he offers for free. During that session, I found he asked really good personal questions that helped him be able to give me excellent advice and tangible tools which I've applied, and since then I have lost 12 pounds where I was otherwise stuck. Now that I'm closer to my weight goals, I'm focusing more on my fitness and muscle and strength. So I just really want to say thanks, philip, for all of your encouragement and the free tools you offer, as well as the positive podcast message. It's really helped me.

Philip Pape: 14:41

And then number seven is no surprise, but a sedentary lifestyle, right, our modern lifestyle. We're less active, we are older, we have desk jobs, we sit around all day. If you're not in a habit of moving, of walking, of doing a little cardio you know a little cardio. I'm just saying you know something fun that you throw in there, even if it's just running upstairs a couple times a day, but primarily it's just getting off your butt on a regular basis. That has contributed to more belly fat storage as well.

Philip Pape: 15:11

Prolonged sitting, in particular, is directly linked to increased visceral fat, even in people who exercise or train regularly. That is why I constantly say that I think of movement as like three buckets. In general, you want to be active all day somehow right, not necessarily moving quickly or intensely or sweating, but you don't want to be sitting all day. So we have our training sessions, we might have our walking or cardio sessions, but we should also have our not sitting time, okay, throughout the day. So if we understand that these are the causes right and we see that midlife belly fat is it's not just about overeating or not exercising enough, it's hormonal, it's metabolic, it's overall lifestyle, then our approach to it is just the inverse. It's a comprehensive way to combat these things, and so, given what we know, then you know simple advice is oversimplifying thing. The conventional advice in the industry is just always like eat less, move more, and that's not going to cut it right. What we have to do is focus on sustainable lifestyle changes, creating a system for ourselves that improve our body composition, and so something that I've talked about many times on this show is fat loss versus weight loss. In fact, last week's Monday episode if you go look in the feed, I'll drop a link to the show notes in there it was called why Weight Loss Always Fails, and in that episode I give you the rundown of why we care about body composition. And if you do the things that support body composition, you'll do the things that support reduced belly fat accumulation. So that's things like prioritizing strength training, number one right Always to build and preserve muscle mass, to maintain that metabolic fire, that efficiency in your body, all of which tells your body that I need the resources to go toward muscle and toward an active lifestyle, not get stored, especially not get stored in the belly. Increased movement beyond those workouts which you just talked about, finding ways to be active throughout the day.

Philip Pape: 17:08

Nutrition is the big lever, not the big lever, but in addition to training and movement, nutrition is the other big lever that we can kind of I'm going to say easily control right, and that's the thing that affects insulin sensitivity, that affects our inflammation, it's the quality of food, it's the timing of food relative to when you need those resources like around your training, like allowing you to sleep by not eating too late and balancing your macros out, which helps with blood sugar control and overall controlling your energy balance based on your goal. So, yeah, you will have periods of fat loss, but generally most of the year you know, three quarters of the year you should probably be at maintenance or in a surplus to feed yourself and also feed your training, right? We're not just eating to get fat, we are eating to build muscle, which is so metabolically helpful throughout this whole process. And then stress management and sleep are, of course, essential. They are not optional, they are essential. They actually influence where your body stores fat, as kind of a compliment to your nutrition and training.

Philip Pape: 18:08

And then alcohol has special mention. As always, my philosophy is always whatever you're doing now, if you can shift and nudge yourself toward less alcohol consumption, that will always be better all the way to zero. It is the one kind of exception I make when I talk about nutrition, where, when it comes to nutrition, I want you to add things in. I want you to add in in. I want you to add in protein, I want you to add in fiber, whole grains, fruits, vegetables, delicious, real foods that have the nutrients and macronutrients to support what you're doing. That will naturally crowd things out. We call that additive nutrition. I've talked about many times on the show. If you need a specific episode on that, I'm happy to send it to you.

Philip Pape: 18:47

But alcohol itself is kind of an outlier. It's not really nutrition, is it? Alcohol is a toxin, it's a poison. There are zero benefits to alcohol. But I understand why, culturally and historically and socially, we do it and I still. I don't abstain entirely. I still have a beer every now and then, a special occasion, or a glass of wine, or I might take a shot with friends. I honestly do. I'm just being totally honest. But I'll tell you what I keep no beer or wine in the house, and so where I used to have a glass of wine every day, it then became a glass of beer every Saturday and now it's zero alcohol most weeks and I might drink once a month. So that's what I'm asking you to consider is can you shift your alcohol consumption just in a positive direction by adding other things in, including experiences that would take the place of what alcohol gives you? So that's all I'm going to say about alcohol.

Philip Pape: 19:39

I do think it has a huge impact, though, on visceral fat storage, whether you're gaining weight or not. Even if you're in fat loss, I think it's holding you back from properly using all the nutrients for the other things we care about. So, whereas other nutrition, you're trying to add this in alcohol is kind of preventing it, and so we're trying to limit it and reduce it. Now your journey is unique, like your goals are unique. Your body fat and your body type is unique. It's going to be very personalized for you. All right, and you know to do that is more than what I can explain in an episode, but I do just let you know I do do free calls with people that are not sales pitches. It's called a rapid nutrition assessment and I'm going to throw the link in the show notes If you want to schedule one just to talk about. Hey, I heard your episode about belly fat. I've got that and I just want to understand why, what causes important to me and what is one or two steps I can take away to get immediate results on this in the next 90 days. So I'll include the link in the show notes. But I want to get to the last thing here that I think could be a takeaway today that you can act on right now and it's going to make all of this other stuff easier and you might not even have to lose weight and that is the importance of actually training your abs but, more importantly than your abs, all of the core, slash, trunk, slash, posterior chain muscles.

Philip Pape: 21:04

Now Megan Dalleman she was on the show a couple of times. She's the host of Self-Care Simplified. So shout out to her. And this episode is dropping right after my most recent interview episode with her. So the last episode was with Megan about joint pain and back pain inflammation, but the last time she was on I think it was episode 149, she talked about belly fat and a lot of the same things we covered today. I think today's went into a longer and a lot of the same things we covered today. I think today's went into a longer detailed explanation of all the causes, but definitely check that out. Anyway, she is a big fan of having a strong core, defined as the deep core muscles as well as the visual core muscles and your glutes right and your lower back kind of the whole mid-trunk and how that can help with a lot of these things with your posture, with joint pain, but also with belly fat.

Philip Pape: 21:55

And what I want to focus specifically on is training your abs, because, no, you cannot spot reduce. That is not a thing. You can't just like do a bunch of crunches and lose a bunch of fat and do nothing else and you're good to go. But we can build strength and muscle in a way that supports the midsection and and it will help with the visceral fat and it will also help with the aesthetics, since I know some of you probably clicked on this episode because you're like, yeah, how do I get a six pack? And it's cool, like it all works together. That's the nice thing about it. You don't have to do two separate things.

Philip Pape: 22:25

These goals work together, and so when you focus on strengthening your core and I'll tell you how you can do this in a second but you're then going to have a foundation for overall strength and better performance in all of your lifts. You're going to be able to push harder in the gym. You're going to stand with better posture, you're going to be more functional and then it's also going to be easier to reveal definition in your abs because you have that extra muscle. Also, extra muscle stretches things out to where the fat on top of that muscle, which is mainly the subcutaneous fat I'm referring to, kind of gets stretched out as well. So if some of your belly fat is really just subcutaneous, it will help that right. So a stronger core means you can push harder on your big lifts like squats and deadlifts, but also everything. You're creating a base that gives you power, that gives you stability in everything that you do right, and then, as you lose body fat, you're going to reveal you know, yeah, a flatter stomach and muscle definition, and then you can achieve the tone look that you're looking for at a higher overall body weight, which means you may not even have to lose fat, depending on where you're starting from, if you're just quote unquote a little overweight.

Philip Pape: 23:39

I've had so many clients in that position where we start them on a pre-diet maintenance phase. Okay, we put them at maintenance, we're eating our protein. We're training for strength. Yeah, we've got some core work in there, maybe, but it's mostly through big lifts. It's not like a ton of crunches, but we may have a little bit of ab and glute work in there.

Philip Pape: 23:54

And then, after about say six weeks, we're doing our check-ins, and sometimes they'll say, okay, are we ready for fat loss? Sometimes, though, they say you know what? I'm not sure I want to even go into calorie deficit. This is way too much fun. I'm eating all this food, I'm lifting weights. I'm not really gaining weight, but I'm getting more definition. That's what we're going for.

Philip Pape: 24:13

Like that is kind of the win-win-win of all of this is you get to do the process. That's fun, you get to have the results, you don't have to diet, and you get improved aesthetics. Like it's a pretty cool place to be, and so I've seen this play out, where you build the core of strength right, and then, yeah, you could do fat loss if you want, but you don't have to, and you're going to now be less prone to injury. For example, you're going to have less pain in your back and you're going to have less pain joint pain in your knees and your elbows. So you probably didn't think that an episode about belly fat would lead to overall fitness and health. But your trunk, your core right, your glutes are all part of this deep system that stabilizes your spine and your pelvis right. Even when you're doing things like an overhead press, it will help you with better form, which means less injury. And now you're investing in the future you, your long-term health, your functionality not just, but in addition to your appearance. So don't just think about losing belly fat, think about building everything that's underneath, because belly fat reduction is good for your health and your aesthetics, but this also supports everything else. With your aesthetics and your performance and your strength and your capability, and then your confidence, you're going to be a super confident person. So that's how we do it.

Philip Pape: 25:36

Let's just recap it here. Number one midlife belly fat is not just aesthetic, it's not just cosmetic, it is a significant health concern. Number two the causes are complex Hormones, stress, sleep, muscle loss, lifestyle. And then, number three, you can address many of these through your lifestyle choices, taking the right approach with training, nutrition, sleep, stress management and so on. Number four if you build core strength core strength and not just ab muscles right Core strength, doing your squats and deadlifts, and then adding in accessory work that supports your core, your glutes yes, your abs, all of it. It improves your overall fitness. It can also reveal muscle definition as you lose fat, or even without having to lose much weight, and then everything improves your health, strength, quality of life, everything Okay.

Philip Pape: 26:23

Your body is capable of remarkable change at any age. In fact, when you're in your 40s and 50s, if you thought life has passed you by, if you've thought that you haven't been doing the right things, what better time to start than right now and, in fact, get a crazy amount of positive change in your body at this age? Because it will happen. It will happen. I've had clients that are 60, that have started and they get just incredible improvements in their health and physique. And then everybody looks around and is like what are you doing? Just incredible improvements in their health and physique. And then everybody looks around and is like what are you doing? I didn't know that was possible. I thought you were getting old, aren't you getting old? Hormones Can't do anything about it. Hands thrown up, emoji, no, it's not like that.

Philip Pape: 27:00

Okay, now again, I can't tell you all the step-by-step-by-step in this episode. So if you want to act on this. Schedule a call with me. I've got these free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessments which I mentioned once before. It's your chance to just sit with me on a Zoom chat for 15 minutes. Hey, what's going on? Hey, where do you live? What's happening, how's the weather, and then we'll get into.

Philip Pape: 27:21

Okay, what's the thing holding you back? What are you trying to do here? Let me help you out. Maybe there's a little misconception, maybe there's something that unlock your perspective or thinking. Maybe I could just give you a nice laugh and some motivation and, you know, send you on your way. More likely, what happens is you come away with one, two or three steps okay, that I like to max it at three that will tell you like do this, do this, do this.

Philip Pape: 27:42

This is what we're going to start with to get you some results, and I will send you a follow-up email with those, with some resources if needed. I'll be available if you have questions. All of this is totally free, because I want you to know that the change is possible, okay, and that there are things you can start doing, and that I'm happy to tell you the process and how those things work. I'm not going to hide anything behind a paywall or anything silly like that, like these, you know, hyped up marketing coaches. I don't do that, so schedule a call with me. It's not a sales pitch.

Philip Pape: 28:11

Go to witsandweightscom, click the button at the top or click the link in my show notes and let's just create a plan for you. Okay, let's get you going. That's it for belly fat. I hope you found something insightful today, something different, something unique, something you hadn't thought of before. Until next time, keep using your wits, keep lifting those weights and remember that your midlife can be your best years yet. This is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights and, as always, I will talk to you next time.

How to Reduce Midlife Back Pain and Joint Inflammation Over 40 with Megan Dahlman | Ep 217

Are you struggling with midlife back pain or joint inflammation that just won’t go away? Have you tried everything from painkillers to chiropractors but still find yourself in pain? Do you want to regain control of your body and stay active well into your later years?

Philip (@witsandweights) brings back fitness expert Megan Dahlman to discuss the root causes of persistent back pain, why it’s not an inevitable part of aging, and how to live pain-free at any age. Megan shares actionable strategies to address back pain and joint inflammation to help you set the foundation for a stronger, pain-free body. If you’re tired of feeling limited by back pain, this conversation will empower you with practical steps to live an active, fulfilling life.

Megan Dahlman, host of the Self-Care Simplified podcast, has helped hundreds of women feel strong and confident through her coaching and content. She has been featured in The Washington Post and Muscle & Fitness, and she brings 15+ years of experience to today’s discussion. Don’t miss this chance to learn from one of the top voices in fitness.

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15-minutes.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:10 How ignoring pain leads to bigger problems
4:05 The staggering prevalence of back pain
6:43 The link between hormones, inflammation, and back pain
8:40 Managing hormones without HRT
12:01 Three essential core exercises to start
20:57 Understanding anti-inflammatory nutrition
25:53 Collagen myths and facts
29:54 How mechanical fixes can quickly relieve pain
32:01 Building pre-bed routines to reduce pain and improve sleep
34:04 Traditional strength training movements for back pain
38:16 The mental aspect of back pain
41:53 Ergonomics for those working from home
46:43 Tips to start reducing back pain today
50:10 Where to find Megan
51:14 Outro

Episode resources:

• Self Care Simplified Podcast

• 5-Day Core Tuneup

• Weekly Jumpstart newsletter

Episode summary:

Midlife can often bring unexpected challenges, and back pain is a common complaint among many women in their 40s and beyond. On this enlightening episode of Wits and Weights, fitness expert Megan Dahlman dives deep into understanding and managing midlife back pain, offering a comprehensive approach that blends fitness, nutrition, and lifestyle adjustments. With practical tips and actionable strategies, this episode aims to empower women to reclaim a pain-free life.

Back pain in midlife is often perceived as an inevitable part of aging, but Megan Dahlman challenges this notion by exploring the root causes and providing effective solutions. She emphasizes that chronic back pain isn't something one has to accept as a natural consequence of getting older. Instead, with the right knowledge and proactive measures, it's possible to manage and even eliminate this pain. The discussion begins by debunking common misconceptions and highlighting the true causes of back pain, which can be both chemical and mechanical in nature.

One significant aspect discussed is the impact of hormonal changes on back health. As women enter peri-postmenopause, declining estrogen levels can affect muscle integrity and inflammation, leading to increased back pain. Megan explains the role of estrogen receptors throughout the body and how their reduction can exacerbate these issues. This insight is crucial for understanding why midlife women are particularly susceptible to back pain and what can be done to mitigate it.

Targeted exercise is a cornerstone of Megan's approach to back pain relief. She emphasizes the importance of a three-dimensional approach to core training, which includes strengthening the pelvic floor, diaphragm, and various core muscles. Foundational exercises such as pelvic tilts, glute bridges, and bird dogs are highlighted, with detailed instructions on how to perform them correctly. These exercises not only strengthen the core but also improve overall posture and reduce tension in the back.

Creating intra-abdominal pressure during heavy lifts is another key topic covered in the episode. Megan explains the importance of engaging the pelvic floor muscles and using a firm exhale to safely manage this pressure, rather than relying solely on the Valsalva maneuver. This technique helps protect the lower back during activities like overhead presses and other heavy lifting exercises. Proper form and technique are essential to avoid exacerbating back pain and ensuring long-term back health.

Nutrition also plays a vital role in managing back pain, particularly in terms of reducing inflammation. Megan discusses the negative impact of processed foods and added sugars on inflammation and highlights the benefits of polyphenols and omega-3 fatty acids. These nutrients can significantly improve joint health and reduce chronic inflammation, contributing to overall back pain relief. Additionally, maintaining a healthy diet supports muscle recovery and overall physical well-being.

Sleep and stress management are often overlooked aspects of back pain relief, but Megan underscores their importance. Poor sleep can exacerbate inflammation and hinder recovery, while high stress levels can lead to muscle tension and pain. Practical tips for improving sleep quality, such as creating a pre-bed ritual that includes hip stretches and pelvic tucks, are provided. These practices not only help alleviate back pain but also promote better overall health and well-being.

Incorporating "exercise snacks" throughout the day is another innovative strategy Megan recommends. Short bursts of physical activity, such as stair runs or quick stretches, can help maintain good posture and keep the joints lubricated. This approach is particularly beneficial for those who work from home or have sedentary jobs, as it encourages regular movement and prevents stiffness.

Maintaining proper posture is crucial for back health, whether sitting or standing. Megan advises starting with pelvic alignment and ensuring that the pelvis is level to support the spine. Alternating between sitting and standing, using ergonomic furniture, and incorporating regular movement can all contribute to better posture and reduced back pain.

In the final chapter of the episode, Megan introduces her new free weekly newsletter, "Weekly Jumpstart," which provides valuable information on exercises, recipes, and tips for managing joint pain and inflammation. This resource is designed to help listeners continue their journey towards a pain-free, healthy lifestyle.

Overall, this episode of Wits and Weights with Megan Dahlman is a treasure trove of information for anyone struggling with midlife back pain. By addressing the root causes and offering practical solutions, Megan empowers listeners to take control of their back health and live a more active, fulfilling life. Whether through targeted exercises, nutrition, sleep, or stress management, there are numerous ways to combat back pain and reclaim a pain-free existence.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're over 40 and you've been struggling with persistent back pain or joint inflammation that's keeping you from enjoying your favorite activities, and you've tried everything without lasting relief, this episode's for you. Join me and fitness expert Megan Dahlman as we reveal how to manage and potentially eliminate midlife back pain for good. Learn the true causes and the difference between chemical and mechanical solutions, discover why back pain isn't an inevitable part of aging, and get the blueprint to reclaim your active lifestyle. Stop limiting yourself. It's time to live pain-free, no matter your age.

Philip Pape: 0:40

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're diving into the epidemic of back pain and joint inflammation, especially for those of us over 40, with the fierce, the fun fitness expert, megan Dahlman. Megan is a certified strength and conditioning specialist who has been featured in the Washington Post and Muscle and Fitness, her magazine. She's host of the popular podcast Self-Care Simplified. We've been on each other's shows, so definitely go follow her show, and she's coached hundreds of women over the past 15 years, helping them feel strong, healthy and confident in their bodies. Megan and I had a lot of fun talking to each other about menopause, belly fat last time. We've talked about training, we've talked about protein, we've talked about building muscle, and I'm stoked to collaborate again so that you can learn about the hidden causes of midlife back pain, the surprising solutions that do and don't work, and how to tailor your approach for lasting relief. Megan, it's good to see you again.

Megan Dahlman: 1:42

So good to see you again, Philip. This is great. I'm excited for this conversation. I love talking about back pain, of all things.

Philip Pape: 1:49

And it's such a popular topic, isn't it? You would almost think like, okay, I've been there, done that. But wow, I mean I know the few episodes I've done on it solo and guests have been pretty popular and you and I seem to have a hit when we get together and people love to hear all the things they can do to improve their health. So when it comes to women in their mid-40s or older and they're struggling with chronic back pain, let's say someone has come to you who's tried everything painkillers, the chiropractors, maybe surgery. They've considered surgery and nothing is giving them that relief and they're just, they feel almost hopeless, like I'm just going to have to live with it, right, I mean, what's the first thing you tell her?

Megan Dahlman: 2:24

Well, the first thing I say is no, you do not have to live with this, and I think that's what we've been told. I we have this impression that, oh, once you reach midlife, it's inevitable, you're going to have back pain. It's just a natural part of aging. And oh well, we were watching my husband and I were watching a standup comedy a little bit ago and it was a huge joke and everybody in the audience was laughing about it because they could all resonate with like, oh, you reach 40, you're going to have back pain. Ha ha ha.

Megan Dahlman: 2:56

And I'm like no, no, no, no, this is not an inevitable part of aging and there are absolutely things that you can do to significantly improve the way that your back feels.

Megan Dahlman: 3:09

And so I don't want people to just say this is how it is and then continue to live their life just sweeping it under the rug, because if they don't do something about it, like if you continue to push through the pain, it will impact your body on so many levels, probably levels that you don't anticipate. You'll probably start moving less in general, which we all know that contributes to lower metabolism, less muscle mass on your body. The rest of your joints will start to hurt, you'll start to lose motivation and pretty soon you'll wake up like five, 10 years later and realize, wow, I am in incredibly terrible shape and most people can trace it all the way back to back pain and that was kind of like the beginning of this downward spiral just this low grade, chronic back pain. So if we can take care of this, this opens the door to you living a full, fulfilling life for many years to come.

Philip Pape: 4:06

Awesome. That's why we're talking today, because people want to know what do I do. But before we get there, I do want to frame the context because I know you've mentioned that some staggering high number of adults like 540 million, something like that suffer from back pain. So we know it's common. I've dealt with it in the past. Almost every client I've had has some level of that or had had. Because they don't anymore, because Megan and I know it, I don't know how to help you out. Can you just break down why it is so prevalent, especially for women in midlife, but even in general?

Megan Dahlman: 4:37

Yeah, I mean the stats are staggering. You're right, it's 540 million adults right now are suffering from some form of back pain, and I think we can clump a bunch of different things into that. There's just general lumbar spine pain, but there's also things like sciatica, SI, joint dysfunction, so things like that that are kind of all around this low back hip pelvis issue. So it's kind of all in there. And the stats show that women actually are more likely to suffer from back pain than men. So in women, 45 and older, approximately 35% of women have suffered from back pain in the last three months which is pretty wild.

Megan Dahlman: 5:18

That's a third of women, and then that stat increases with age, so it goes up to nearly half of all women will have back pain around 75 years old if you don't do something about it.

Megan Dahlman: 5:32

So I think a lot of that is potentially especially with women.

Megan Dahlman: 5:36

A lot of that is potentially due to just the shape of the pelvis and, for many women that have been pregnant, the stresses of going through pregnancy and childbirth and some of the changes that occur to your pelvis during that time and the integrity of your pelvic floor muscles, the integrity of your core all of those things can change during that time and if you're not careful to go back in and heal those muscles and re-strengthen them over time, it can slowly degenerate and just slowly get worse and worse as far as like having that really important core stability in there. And then the biggest thing for women in midlife is those hormonal changes and I know we're going to talk a lot about that, but that is, you have that double whammy of maybe you were pregnant years ago where you dealt with sciatica when you were pregnant and diastasis, recti, separated abdominals, pelvic floor issues never really dealt with it. And now we get to 45 years old, and now we throw these hormonal issues into the mix and we just have this storm for back pain of some form.

Philip Pape: 6:43

So let's go there and talk about the hormones, because you know, I hadn't even thought about the fact that, yeah, your spine and your general anatomy basically shifts from pregnancy and potentially quite a bit, and then now you add in the storm of hormones peri-postmenopause. I know we want to talk about joint inflammation as well. So if they're connected, I would love to hear that connection. But regardless, what is the link between hormones and some of these challenges?

Megan Dahlman: 7:10

Absolutely. It's huge. Women have estrogen receptor all over their body, essentially in every system of their body. So your muscle tissues have estrogen receptors. Pelvic floor muscles, those are muscle tissues, those have estrogen receptors. Pelvic floor muscles, those are muscle tissues, those have estrogen receptors. Even your joint fluid, that synovial fluid in the joint, has estrogen receptors.

Megan Dahlman: 7:33

And what estrogen does? It's one of the things like magic hormones. It really helps to maintain the integrity of your muscle cells. It helps to keep inflammation at bay, especially in your joint spaces. It's kind of this magical hormone that keeps all your cells working properly. But when we slowly turn off that estrogen hose, like when your body slowly starts to produce less and less estrogen, all of those issues now can float to the surface. So no longer do your muscles have just this natural integrity. Now you have to work at it to keep your muscle tissues maintaining their strength and function. No longer do you have just natural joint fluid that is naturally anti-inflammatory. Now you have to work a little harder, because the moment we've removed that estrogen from the picture, that inflammation especially has a heyday in your body.

Philip Pape: 8:32

Yeah, that visual of these receptors everywhere. That's very powerful, because sometimes hormones are a little bit of black magic for people to understand. Right, they're these signalers and you're like okay, so what's the distinction for a specific hormone and also for women, and why is this all happening? And we know it's a natural process with aging, but, aside from hormone replacement therapy, is there anything we can do about? It is the question that people want to know. Yeah, and we can get into specifics now about solutions for back pain and whatnot, but just starting with hormones, where would you take that discussion?

Megan Dahlman: 9:04

solutions- for back pain and whatnot, but just starting with hormones, where would you take that discussion? Yeah, I mean, what's interesting is when you talk to and listen to, doctors that specifically specialize in menopause hormone therapies they'll always say in conjunction with good, healthy habits.

Philip Pape: 9:20

Yeah. Nutrition and lifestyle yeah.

Megan Dahlman: 9:21

This is going to work best in conjunction with good, healthy habits. So I always like to remind people we always need to start there, no matter what. So your fitness, absolutely. We need to make sure that you are exercising regularly and in very intentional ways that are advantageous to those core muscles, specifically, since we're talking about back pain, especially the pelvic floor, knowing that oh, now that I don't have estrogen in my system as much, my pelvic floor muscles. They're a massive part of my core and when those lose their integrity, my back will probably hurt. I can't tell you how many women have back pain because they have weak pelvic floor. They just go hand in hand. Same with sciatica or SI joint issues. So we can work on strengthening your pelvic floor.

Megan Dahlman: 10:12

And then, of course, on the nutrition side of things, there's a lot that we can do for improving muscle mass. So fueling your body in a way that stimulates or just is helpful to maintain and build the integrity of your muscles. We want to be doing that and eating in a way that's anti-inflammatory. Now that we know that that's, inflammation can have a heyday in your body right now. So let's eat in a way that keeps that at bay.

Megan Dahlman: 10:40

And then the two other things that are that should be part of the equation is your sleep. When you don't get adequate sleep, inflammation increases again and it also impacts your body's ability to. It impacts your insulin sensitivity and your body's ability to manage glucose properly, and so that can increase your body's inflammation as well. And then stress is kind of the cousin to lacking sleep. They kind of go hand in hand. When you don't have adequate or just good stress management skills, once again inflammation has a heyday that cortisol rises, your insulin sensitivity goes down, and so it's just this perfect storm. So all of those things are within your control, apart from going down the road of hormone therapy and I would recommend everybody to explore that option with your doctor. But to know that, okay, stress, sleep, fitness, nutrition, all of those things are within my control. So let's see what I can do about all those things.

Philip Pape: 11:42

Yeah, it's empowering, and those four pillars are the same ones we always come back to, isn't?

Carol: 11:47

it.

Philip Pape: 11:47

You and I just recorded yesterday on your show.

Philip Pape: 11:50

Same thing. It's like it's okay, which is good, right, because it's not this confusing, obtuse, complicated thing. Necessarily, not to say it's easy, quote unquote, but we know what to do. Let's break down a few of those, starting with the fitness. You mentioned pelvic floor strengthening. I think you recently did a I think it was an episode and spoiler alert you talked about glutes, supporting the glutes for your back, which all sounds to me like strength training, and so the question is what is the most, I guess, accessible approach for most women listening, who may be not training yet, or maybe they just got started, but they're not entirely sure what to do?

Megan Dahlman: 12:30

Core, absolutely Like we got to start with your core, but it does help to have an understanding of what your core actually is. I think sometimes we hear core like you need to do core work, and we immediately equate that to abs. You know, and I always say it's kind of like mirror muscle training. We all have a tendency to walk in front of a mirror and want to just train the muscles that we can see in the mirror. And your abs, those six pack muscles. Maybe your obliques kind of fall into that category.

Megan Dahlman: 12:59

But when it comes to good quality core training, the type of core training that's going to eliminate back and hip pain and improve your function for many years to come, it has to be three-dimensional. And your core is made up of your pelvic floor on the bottom, your diaphragm on the top. Believe it or not, your diaphragm is one of the largest muscles of your core and then it's also comprised of those deep inner layers of core muscles that connect directly to your pelvis and your spine. Those include some hip flexors and those absolutely include your glutes on the backside. And then we get to the big abdominal muscles that you can see in some of those low back muscles that you can see. So a good core training program is going to impact all of those muscles. It's going to include training for all of those muscles and it sounds like oh my goodness. Then if there's like 25 core muscles, do I need 25 different exercises?

Philip Pape: 13:57

That's how people think sometimes.

Megan Dahlman: 13:58

I know and I usually say let's just start with three. So the best three core exercises to begin with, first of all, is learning how to do a pelvic tilt with an exhale. So what that's going to do is it's going to combine some of those deeper, the deepest layers of core muscles, the ones that attach directly into your lumbar spine, your pelvic floor muscles, and then, when we add an exhale to it, that connects your diaphragm with it too. So the way you do this a good way is just laying on your back, tucking your pelvis under or tucking your tailbone under, so you feel your low back pressing into the floor. Once you get that position like, exhale and push all of the air out and then release everything and do it again and you're going to instantly feel like, oh wow, there was a good bracing sensation that I felt there.

Megan Dahlman: 14:52

The second exercise is a good glute bridge. So just in that same position, you're on your back, you've got your feet planted, you got to press through your heels. Mind you, it's got to be the heels. If you press through your toes to lift your hips up off the floor, you'll be working your quads a little bit more and we really wanna get those glutes working. So, pressing through the heels, squeezing your buns and pushing your hips up, not overarching at the top, but just getting those glutes working. So that's another really great core exercise.

Megan Dahlman: 15:18

And then, if you do have the ability to get on your hands and knees some people just can't. They don't like that pressure on the hands and knees. But if you can, most people listening probably can flip over onto your hands and knees and do the bird dogs. So this is a classic exercise where you have your opposites lifting, so your right arm extended, your left leg extended out behind you.

Megan Dahlman: 15:42

Big mistake that people make with this exercise is that they don't achieve a neutral spine first. They just kind of get in position and lift and think about let me lift as high as I can, I'm working the muscles across my back. It's like actually you're working your anti-rotators and your stabilizers. So the purpose of that exercise is not to just lift as high as you can and feel your back muscles, it's really to lock in on neutral spine. So I always find that doing that exhale gets all of your pelvic floor, your diaphragm, all of those deep core muscles engaged and locked in. And then extend your opposites and think about reaching them straight forward and straight back. So those are kind of a big three exercises that are a great place for anybody to start with good quality core training.

Philip Pape: 16:32

The pelvic tilt with exhale, the glute bridge and the bird dogs. And I've definitely experienced bird dogs back in my CrossFit days as part of the warmup we actually did those a lot dead bugs and all sorts of things. Oh yeah, so so a couple of follow-ups on these. Then you mentioned bracing. What are your thoughts on bracing in general, like the Valsalva maneuver, when you start to, I guess, upgrade or graduate into bigger lifts or full-on strength training with free weights and things like that? What are your thoughts?

Megan Dahlman: 17:00

Yeah, I think the. So the Valsalva Nuva is very advanced actually and a lot of people can achieve the same level of success. What we're trying to do is create a lot of intra-abdominal pressure is what's going on there, so creating a lot of pressure inside the abdominal cavity to stabilize the lumbar spine. So I would not recommend experimenting with the Valsalva maneuver if you don't already know how to perform a good Kegel and I don't care if you are a man or a woman understanding how to engage your pelvic floor muscles. That alone, combined with a powerful exhale and it doesn't need to be holding your breath but exhaling during the movement, especially exhaling during the pushing phase of a movement those two things combined can create a lot of that intra-abdominal pressure without the risk of sending your blood pressure through the roof. So that is sometimes a risk with amateurs doing the Valsalva maneuver is that they'll hold their breath, creating a lot of this intra-abdominal pressure. They'll bust out four, five reps of something super heavy and then they'll pass out.

Philip Pape: 18:17

Yeah, because they shouldn't be holding their breath the whole time. Yeah, yes.

Megan Dahlman: 18:21

So I would say, explore learning how to create that intra-abdominal pressure by understanding, engaging the pelvic floor in combination with a slow, firm exhale that can create enough bracing and core stability when you do heavy lifting that you probably don't need. You might not need the Valsalva, you might not even need a belt, you might not A lot of people do. If you're going super heavy, it could be helpful. But knowing how to almost create your own internal internal belt, like with a really firm, hard exhale combined with a pelvic floor engagement, it's almost like you're putting on this like internal belt.

Philip Pape: 19:04

Yeah, and I'm kind of TMI squeezing as we do this just thinking about it. It's good, you know, it's funny. One lift that surprisingly engages all of that is the overhead press with a barbell, if you do it right, because then you have to squeeze your quads and engage your glutes.

Megan Dahlman: 19:20

Yes, and I will mention, since you brought that up, a big mistake that a lot of people make with overhead pressing is, as they push their arms up, their rib cage will float up and in turn, cause their low back to arch. So if you think about what happens if you squeeze your shoulder blades back really far and it causes your rib cage to kind of lift and flare up, most likely what will also happen at the same time is that your low back, your lumbar spine, will arch a little bit extra and in that moment your abdominal muscles are disengaged. And so whenever I teach people how to do an overhead press, I always say let's tuck your rib cage down first, just a little bit. Let's connect it to the top of your hip bone and feel a little bit of that core engagement, and then extend your arms overhead and try to get all of the action just from your shoulder blades and your shoulder joint, and we don't want to see any of that rib cage flare because that could put your low back at risk.

Megan Dahlman: 20:23

So even though the rib cage flare is happening on the front side. It can, in turn, make your low back hurt when you're lifting.

Philip Pape: 20:28

It's so true, and that personal experience from back in the day too. And don't forget the shrug at the top when you get to the top, really shrug all the way through to avoid that impingement. Yeah, all good lessons we've had experience with. So, all right, I mean we can go down a rabbit hole with lifting. But there's other things I want to cover for folks, because you mentioned nutrition. Yes, and I reached out to my community this week. I'm like Megan's back on. They're super excited. I said what do you guys want to know? And all of a sudden there were all these questions about collagen. Of course, it always gets to some like one specific thing. But you mentioned anti-inflammatory, and that is the loaded trigger phrase for the fitness industry, because there's so much misinformation about I'll call them inflammatory foods, which I think is way too much of an oversimplification. So how does it play a role in back pain? What do you mean by anti-inflammatory? What do you mean by fueling your body, just to not overcomplicate it?

Megan Dahlman: 21:19

There are certain foods that have a tendency if you do have a propensity to be more inflammatory maybe you don't exercise regularly because exercise is an anti-inflammatory that keeps your body's just chronic inflammation levels at bay. If you don't sleep well, if your stress is out of control, like if you already have this inflammatory environment, then certain foods can add to it, can like put fuel on the fire. So those foods tend to be packaged, processed foods, especially foods that are high in processed carbohydrates and high in added sugars. I always like to say added sugars. You and I talked about this yesterday together, about fruit, and yes, fruit has natural sugars, but we don't want to worry about natural sugars in food. Dairy foods have natural. Lactose is a sugar. It's a naturally occurring sugar, so it's not going to have the same inflammatory effect in your body as having a package of Skittles Like it's very different. So added sugars are the things that you just want to kind of be more aware of. Foods that are high, like high amounts of saturated fats that are not being balanced with the other forms of good healthy fats and I have to always be careful when I say healthy fats, because saturated fat is a healthy fat too. It starts to get bonkers in your body when you have too much of that in relation to the other forms of fats, and then alcohol can be inflammatory as well. Now what's cool, though, is that there are foods that have shown to ratchet down inflammation levels, and the two big powerhouses are foods that are high in polyphenols and omega-3 fatty acids. These are kind of like your super team of eating more foods with polyphenols and omega-3s. This can actually help to pull down your body's inflammation levels, and you can actually see an improvement in the way your joints feel because of this.

Megan Dahlman: 23:28

So polyphenols these are just compounds that are found in certain fruits and vegetables. Actually, berries are really high in them. Leafy greens are really high in them. Leafy greens are really high in polyphenols. Cruciferous vegetables those are like the broccoli, cauliflower, brussels sprouts, cabbage those are really high in polyphenols. So I always say if you can have a salad every day, if you can have berries every day, you're doing pretty great. If you can have those cruciferous vegetables a couple times a week, that's going to be great. Omega-3 fatty acids those, of course, are found in flax seeds, flax seed oil, chia, walnuts, fish. All of these things are pretty high in omega-3 fatty acids, so those can help too. So those are kind of the big powerhouses of anti-inflammatories. You got the polyphenols and the omega-3s.

Carol: 24:16

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency. But from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. My training in the gym and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 24:56

Yeah, I think it's always nice when we have yet another reason to eat fruits and vegetables, because, you know, when I grew up it was like just eat them, they're good for you. You know, it was like Popeye's spinach, you know like. But you mentioned. You know we talk about fiber, we talk about fullness, we talk about nutrients, but you mentioned compounds like polyphenols and those are not on the nutrition label. Generally, we sometimes miss information, miss space information when just looking at the label, not realizing, wow, berries have so many other hidden things in there. You know what I mean and that's important to understand. And then omega-3s you mentioned. A lot of people go to fish, but you're saying you've also got the ALA. What?

Philip Pape: 25:39

is that Alpha-leonide acid, which is in flaxseed chia walnuts. So a good diversity of those is super helpful, which is why a lot of people take fish oil pills when they don't need enough and that kind of gives them a little bit of the anti-inflammatory.

Megan Dahlman: 25:51

Absolutely yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 25:53

Now collagen. So, going back to collagen, right, there's the different types of collagen, there's collagen peptides, there's like a curcuminoid and collagen blends and like joint pill supplements. What are your thoughts on the whole topic of collagen?

Megan Dahlman: 26:07

You know, research is just not clear, like we don't have enough data that shows that it actually is helpful. Um, there definitely is not enough data to show that it actually is helpful. There definitely is not enough data to show that it's helpful for hair, skin and nails. That's, I think, a big reason why people take it is the hair, skin and nails. What we do know is that being protein deficient in general is not good for any of your connective tissues. So collagen, peptides these are just the specific amino acids that your connective tissues are made up of. But if you were to just make sure that you're getting adequate protein period, we're going to be covering a lot of those bases.

Megan Dahlman: 26:51

I would say taking a collagen powder would be really helpful for someone who is not getting their protein enough protein on a regular basis. I would probably recommend that they would start with a whey protein first. It covers a lot of those bases and in fact, the same amino acids, those same peptides and collagen powder are found in a whey protein isolate, so you don't need to have the super expensive collagen one. The data is just kind of shaky on it. There's been a little bit of data that it can help with connective tissue, like with joint tissue, tendons, ligaments. But in the grand scheme of things the amount that it actually is beneficial is really marginal. So I don't think it's the wonder supplement that people are saying it is.

Philip Pape: 27:40

So I agree a hundred percent. And for the listeners, just so you know, I did not prep Megan with this at all. What's funny is I have an episode coming out next week called Collagen Does Not Build Muscle.

Philip Pape: 27:50

And it's because there is a study this year that was reviewed that compared collagen to whey and pea and rice and found that whey and pea and rice stimulate muscle protein synthesis. Collagen doesn't at all Right Right and, like you said, it's kind of like EAAs and BCAAs when they were popular. If I have a client comes in, it's like I take EAAs. I'm like waste of money. Stop taking it, go eat food, go get protein. You don't need it.

Megan Dahlman: 28:13

Yeah, yeah. And what's funny is that collagen is actually an incomplete protein, like a collagen peptide.

Philip Pape: 28:19

It's like two acids, right it's two of the acids.

Megan Dahlman: 28:22

And if you take away protein powder like it's, it's all nine, like you get all all the essentials and more, including the ones that are found in the collagen. So yeah, I'm glad we agree on that.

Philip Pape: 28:37

No for sure. I'm glad you're up on the evidence and people need to understand, because it is funny how often when I ask these things, like give me your questions, they always go right to like supplements, and definitely not. I'm not talking bad about any of my community listening. You guys know who you are. I love you all. I love the listeners. I think the same thing because I'm like well, I understand the basics. Now I need to get down to the nitty gritty. And it's good to ask these questions because sometimes you'd be surprised at things that are helpful you know that might otherwise get dismissed.

Megan Dahlman: 29:05

Well, and I find too, with people that have a whole lineup of supplements on their counter, it helps them feel like I'm doing some wonderful things for my health, where there's some really big things that are getting overlooked, like just staying active all day long, like increasing your neat you know, increasing your non-exercise activity, sleeping better, like all of those things would give you a much bigger health benefit than having $500 worth of supplements on your counter. So I always say let's start with the big picture stuff first and make sure those things are in place. Then you might never need $500 a month worth of supplements. Yeah, I love that. Go save your money.

Philip Pape: 29:49

Yeah, and you come to it from a holistic or a whole body perspective. When you mentioned things like sleep and people are rolling their eyes, oh, here we go again with sleep. But there's a reason for that because, like you said, it is an anti-inflammatory, it improves insulin sensitivity, it reduces belly fat I think we've talked about that before reduces belly fat. And so when you say sleep, stress management and strength training, all of those do the same thing they're an anti-inflammatory. Well, now tie that to back pain. Does that mean that if you're just doing them in general, for most people will show significant improvement pretty quickly? What's your experience there?

Megan Dahlman: 30:25

It can take a while because this is it is. So we mentioned briefly the difference between, like, chemical and mechanical causes of back pain. Chemical and mechanical causes of back pain. So the chemical side of things reducing overall inflammation, seeing improvements in those inflammatory markers inside of your body that can take a little bit of a while, a little bit of time to float to the surface and really reap those benefits. So stick with it because it's worth it. Stay consistent at it. But it might be two months, three months before you're really noticing like, wow, I'm not feeling as lethargic or achy or not. I don't have as much of this like hot, achy joint feel as I go about my day. It could take a little while.

Megan Dahlman: 31:13

The mechanical side of things can be really quickly, can feel improvements really quickly if we're improving those mechanical things. So that's the core strength that I was talking about. It's also just improving your alignment and posture as you go about the day. If your spine is out of good alignment, if you walk around with a constant anterior pelvic tilt or posterior pelvic tilt where your pelvis is just like out of whack all day long, that hurts, it, puts your joints out of alignment and puts a lot of stress on them puts a lot of stress on your discs and on all the surrounding tissues. If we can improve your alignment and help it stay there, you might get immediate relief from that, which is pretty cool. So for someone that might be struggling to sleep at night, maybe because their back hurts, you know, it's kind of like the chicken and the egg thing, it's like well you're telling me I need to sleep better, but I can't sleep better because my back hurts all night long.

Megan Dahlman: 32:10

It's like, okay, I totally get that. So let me give you a few tools that potentially you could do right before bed to ease some of the joint pain, ease some of that muscle tension and perhaps help you sleep a little bit better. So doing some good hip stretches right before bed, like a figure four stretch, a hamstring stretch, doing those pelvic tucks with the exhale it decompresses your spine, it helps engage your core muscles. Doing a glute bridge right before bed helps activate your hip muscles so that all that pressure is not right on your lumbar spine. All of those things could potentially help you get into a more comfortable position when you're sleeping and help you sleep all night long. And so that's the mechanical side that ends up having an impact on the chemical thing, because you end up sleeping better. You know what I mean.

Philip Pape: 33:02

Yes, yes, and to take that even further, because the concept I like to use for this is upward, spiraling from positive psychology where one thing leads to another to another. It's also could be called habit stacking, whatever, right, but you just mentioned how those things can help your back feel better so you can sleep. It also gives you a chance to create this pre-bed ritual which I'm always telling people, like if you can get off your screen, you know that's one of the best things you can do right before bed. But you need to replace it with something because nobody can just jump into bed. So you know, whether that's reading a book, breath work, meditation or guess what, you're strengthening of your core before bed because you have back pain and then you'll also sleep better. Two for one, megan, I love it. This is good stuff.

Philip Pape: 33:44

Yeah, yeah, we're checking a lot of boxes off with that one, checking all the boxes yeah, it's just like when someone has a whole host of metabolic issues and it's like it's just excess body fat will probably fix most of them. You know, I don't want to be simplistic, but really is. Let's not try to solve all these things, let's just solve the main thing See what's left and then we'll attack those For sure, for sure Core strength. So we come from slightly different camps, even though I agree with everything you're saying. We come from slightly different camps from a strength training perspective and From a strength training perspective and I'll explain what I mean in a second but I like how you define core as like the trunk, the posterior chain, the glutes.

Philip Pape: 34:21

It's like this massive chain and set of stuff around the middle that supports everything. And I know just you know the other day doing heavy Romanian deadlifts, I'm always thinking like brace neutrality, core tightness, it's like so important or something's gonna get injured. And it also helps your back because you can do some movement you don't think is back related like a bench press and then feel back pain from that because you're not tight with your core.

Philip Pape: 34:49

So where I'm going with that is. What are your thoughts on, then? Traditional strength training, movements for back pain, like deadlifts, squats and the like.

Megan Dahlman: 34:57

I think that they can be really helpful for the exact reason that you just said. When I'm going through that movement, I am having to engage my core and pay attention to the neutrality and really brace and create that integrity around my spine. It can be some of the best core training. My spine, it can be some of the best core training. However, if you do those movements and load them up with pretty heavy loads, if you don't already have the coordination of knowing how to engage those muscles properly, if you don't have the awareness of what good technique and posture is, if you don't already have a certain base level of core strength, it could put you at risk. So they could either be excellent core exercises and really really great for your back, or it could be sabotaging your back and actually really hurt your back if you do them incorrectly and don't have good core engagement as you do them. You could go either way really.

Philip Pape: 35:56

No, no, it makes sense because when I think of the person so some people are what's the word another guy used. He'd be called like not athletically clumsy, but just, oh man, I don't know what the word is. It's somewhat derogatory, but it's people who aren't necessarily naturally athletic when they try to lift weights right. And so if you say, okay, start this whole body strength training program and just go and do it, they can really hurt themselves, even at a lightweight, even if you say start light, even if they watch videos, even if they post form checks other than having a personal trainer who knows what they're doing, which is few and far between, I'm sorry to say, and you're one of the ones who do. It takes a lot of that to be doing in concert with learning those lifts to get it right, whereas what you're suggesting is maybe there's a pre-phase. That's really intelligent, to take time doing and get mind-body connection right, mind-body connection with what's going on, and then you can apply it to other things. Yeah, absolutely.

Megan Dahlman: 36:48

And whenever I start with any of my clients, we spend a lot of time training the core, no matter what, whether you have back pain or not, like we're, we're just going to do it, because anytime you lift or push or just ambulate through your day, all of those forces go through your core. So if you don't have back pain now, if we don't train your core, you will get it. It will happen. And that's when it is inevitable, Like that's. If you don't train your core muscles, like then. Yeah, I could. I could say you will most likely get back pain at some point in the future, especially if you continue to strength train and continue to just lift heavy weights without having a good foundation of core control and knowing how to activate and engage your core when you're going through those heavier lifting exercises.

Philip Pape: 37:44

Yeah, one of the first things you said was you know, also, don't push through pain. So even if you are one of those men or women who are already lifting maybe you're already doing that and you start to get that fatigue. It often starts as just a little bit of throbbing, a little bit of pain, that soreness that persists longer than it should. It's very localized. It can kind of ramp up and up and if you can't tell again, I have personal experience that's what happens and if you push too hard, something's going to give, and that's where you need to listen to yourself. What about? Okay? So a couple other things, a couple other topics before we wrap up the mental side and maybe even the ergonomics of working from home.

Philip Pape: 38:17

So, mentally, a while back, I there's this guy, maybe you know him, this doctor who was big into all back pain is mental, like all of it's psychological, which I know is not the case, but it was very compelling argument. He had worked with like thousands of people who had persistent sciatica and back pain and they just had to come to terms and resolve the emotions around it. I don't know precisely what it was that. Are you aware of this school of thought?

Megan Dahlman: 38:43

I am and I. So here's the thing like pain is all perceived in your brain. So pain is just some sort of signal that your body is sending to your brain and sometimes your brain can do funny things and perceive pain that isn't actually damage. So I've had this a lot with individuals where maybe years ago they had an incident where they hurt their back and now they have this really strong memory of this happened. And now whenever I get into this position, I'm scared, I tense up and my brain starts to perceive that that there's some sort of damage occurring in the area. This happens a lot with cramping. Muscles cramp a lot, they cramp constantly and especially weak, underdeveloped muscles and a cramp can sometimes feel like damage is happening, because it can be very painful of having constant tension and cramping in a muscle and guarding and this happens a lot in your, especially your low back muscles and your brain will start to perceive that like something has been damaged.

Megan Dahlman: 39:55

And for a lot of people, especially with a history of back pain, frequently I'll say did you do anything Like? I'll ask them was there an acute injury that happened here? Did you feel a pop? Did you experience, like whoa, just suddenly a ripping or a tearing feeling or something like that. Most of them are like no, it just kind of came on over time.

Megan Dahlman: 40:19

Most of the time, I have discovered that it is a guarding sensation. Like those lumbar spine muscles, a lot of those deep core muscles, like those lumbar spine muscles, a lot of those deep core muscles felt like they were being put under a stressor that it wasn't ready for, and so they guard and clamp down. That is a very powerful feeling and your brain will sometimes perceive that as damage. Something happened and we got to guard even more and we got to guard even more. So quite often, just getting that person in a comfortable position and telling them to do deep breath work to get those muscles to release and to stop cramping and guarding is one of the most powerful things. Now, is that mind over matter? No, there is actually something mechanical going on that's creating the pain. There was muscle tension, guarding, clamping, so it's not all in your head.

Philip Pape: 41:17

I find that that might be a really discouraging thing to hear like oh, it's all in your head Right Like gaslighting almost yeah, yeah.

Megan Dahlman: 41:21

Yeah, and I don't find that that's very helpful. But there can be a really powerful mind-body connection and sometimes learning how to override those cramping and guarding mechanisms that your body naturally will want to do when it feels stressed out can be a really powerful thing for pain connections associated with that for something positive, but it helps to know what that positive thing is, and that's where the information you're sharing is so powerful and helpful.

Philip Pape: 41:53

So for those of us who are working from home right and sitting down all day, I think of the ergonomic aspects of back pain like just sitting. What are your thoughts on what people can do differently as far as their day-to-day pattern when they are working from home for long stretches?

Megan Dahlman: 42:10

Movement first and foremost. So even if you have a perfect ergonomic setup, your joints will get cranky if they stay in one spot for too long, even if they're perfectly aligned. So what happens when you don't continue to move and lubricate your joints? Like that? Synovial fluid actually can start to seep out of the joint space a little bit and then once you move, that joint kind of vacuums it back up and it lubricates the joint. So if you are in one spot for very long, really try to train your body like every 20, 30 minutes. No matter where I am, even if I have a perfect ergonomic setup, I need to still move, no matter what. If possible, I do recommend people getting a standing desk. I have an up, a high-low desk, a standing desk. I love it because I know you're standing. Now I'm actually sitting right now.

Philip Pape: 43:02

It's hard to tell sometimes, right.

Megan Dahlman: 43:03

Yeah, I go back and forth between standing and sitting all day long. It's not that sitting is bad, because sometimes when people are standing they'll actually stand with poor posture too. So just staying moving is the most important thing. A couple of things to think about as you are.

Megan Dahlman: 43:20

Whether standing or sitting, is thinking of good posture, starting with your pelvis. Often we think of posture beginning with our shoulders and like just our shoulder blades and not slouching. But if you think of posture, it really begins at the pelvis. And if you can keep your pelvis really well aligned we don't want it tipping one direction, like cocked out to the side, we don't want it dumping forward or slumped under If we can keep your pelvis as level as possible, then we can work up and down the chain from there to have good alignment.

Megan Dahlman: 43:51

So a neutral pelvis. So if you're sitting in your chair, a lot of people will sit to the side, lean, tip their hips over to the side, arch too much or slump too far under. So whatever you need to do or they'll cross their legs. So having your feet planted perfectly level so that your pelvis is sitting level, same with when you're standing. Having your feet planted level so that your pelvis is level, so good ergonomic posture starts there, starts with your pelvis, and then just stay moving as much as you can throughout the day.

Philip Pape: 44:28

Yeah, you kind of called me out on the standing right Because I have a standing desk. I have a couple of standing desks and sometimes you can just get stuck there for too long and you're like I got to move, or I got to at least fidget, and then kind of walk around or sit for a while. It's crazy. Just this week I recorded with was yeah, Brian Borstein, and he's a big fan of exercise snacks right, oh, I love that idea yeah.

Philip Pape: 44:54

And I know he didn't make up the term, but yeah, and the one he likes. And I can do this because I have stairs. So anybody who has stairs is just three or four times an hour run up and down the stairs for a minute and you get not only the movement, you get the blood flow, you get the exercise, you get the kind of cardio, you get it all you know and it kind of breaks that cycle of constantly sitting or standing. So that's just one thought.

Megan Dahlman: 45:12

I love that. That's so great.

Philip Pape: 45:14

Yeah.

Megan Dahlman: 45:14

No, I love the exercise snack idea and really that comes back to you know, motion is lotion and and this is the power that you have with the mechanical side of things is just continuing to keep your joints, every joint on your body, moving in an optimal range of motion. Some joints, by the way, are not designed to move a lot, so, like your lumbar spine joints, they're not designed to be super flexible. That's one thing we didn't really touch on. But a lot of people, when they feel like, oh, my low back is hurting, I need to do this really big back stretch, I got a round way over or twist or arch, usually the tension is actually coming from tight hips. Your hips are supposed to be really flexible, not your lumbar spine. So doing some good stretches, targeted stretches for areas that really do carry that tension, lubricating joints through a range of motion that they need to stay lubricated through, all of those things can really help accomplish creating a body that just feels great and doesn't have those joint aches and pains.

Philip Pape: 46:22

Yeah, and for those who like to do yoga or something like that, I think Megan's routine and she's got a lot of them and I know you have plenty of content on this, so we could share something in the show notes but it could be your yoga routine almost. If back pain is an issue for you, make that your stretching and movement. Some people are time crunched. Obviously, if you have hours and hours, you want to do yoga too. That's fine. It's a lot of information. So if you had to give the listeners one actionable tip that they can implement today and just start reducing their back pain and inflammation, what would it be?

Megan Dahlman: 46:53

You know, I would say that probably the most powerful tool at your disposal is that simple pelvic tilt with the exhale, because in that moment most people go through their day with an anterior pelvic tilt and that creates a lot of that lumbar spine compression. So learning how to just change and shift the angle of your pelvis, having that control and coordination, is so powerful that can really reduce, instantly reduce, that feeling of pressure on your low back. And then when you add the exhale to it, that's also engaging those deep core muscles. So if there's anything you do that will help your back feel better, at least start moving in that direction. Learn how to do that specific movement.

Philip Pape: 47:41

Yeah, I love that. It'll help with this. It'll also prime you for more advanced movements later on, cause again, that's super important for certain lifts as well. Okay, I love it. I hope we can put a good resource in there for that specific thing. Megan, I'm sure you have something we can point people to.

Megan Dahlman: 47:57

Yeah, absolutely. My free five-day core tune-up program. So five days I lead you through the very best core exercises. And what's funny is I created this as a great way to on-ramp people into my full back and hip fix program. So it's a 30-day program where I help you eliminate all your back and hip pain. But what has happened is that this free five-day core tune-up usually in the first five days we get rid of the back pain completely and most people are like I don't feel like I need it. I know I'm like shoot, maybe I made it too good.

Philip Pape: 48:29

That will pay off in other ways. Trust me, it'll pay off in other ways. You know, with people you know.

Megan Dahlman: 48:33

It's a good little program so I would recommend starting there. It's a great. It's easy to follow, beginner friendly, less than 10 minutes a day. It builds. It's so great. So 5daycorecom. So it's so great, so five day corecom.

Philip Pape: 48:46

So I will throw that in there from from a woman of integrity for you to get a back of integrity. We will throw that in there, that's awesome.

Megan Dahlman: 48:57

I love it. Is there anything else you wish I had asked related to this? You know I feel like we covered so much and I know in the beginning we talked about a little bit. You know, is back pain inevitable and it's not. It's not inevitable and it's not. It's not inevitable.

Megan Dahlman: 49:11

And I just want to reiterate that there's so much within your control and it might be that you have to continue to revisit these things because you always need to be eating healthy. It's not like you eat a salad once and one and done, like okay, good, now I'm healthy. This is training. Like making sure that your back stays healthy, means that you have to continue to revisit this stuff. Like I'm going to be training my core until the day that I die. Same with I'm going to be eating salads until the day that I die and moving and walk, like as much as with the is within my control. So it's not necessarily a one and done thing, but you do have so much in your power to ensure that you do have a healthy back. It's not inevitable. Back pain is not inevitable.

Philip Pape: 49:59

It's not inevitable and if you make it something that gives you that freedom and that movement, it should be enjoyable. That's something you want to keep doing because it just feeds back on itself and, again, mind-body connection. All right, so we talked about the core course that we'll throw in there, but where can listeners learn more about you, megan?

Megan Dahlman: 50:17

Definitely come check out my podcast, philip. You've been a great guest on my show that self-care simplified. And then we have I'm not sure when this episode is going live but we have a brand new weekly newsletter that's coming out called weekly jumpstart free newsletter. Full of incredible information exercises, recipes, tips, um, I think the first edition is all about joint pain and inflammation actually. So every week we're sending out this newsletter, so it's just weekly. Jumpstartcom is where you can sign up for the free newsletter, so we're trying to get as many people just this really good quality information each week in a good, digestible way. So definitely check that stuff out.

Philip Pape: 51:01

Perfect, I will throw that in the show notes and for the listener you know, check out Megan's podcast Self-Care Simplified. Our episode is going to be on there as well. We talked what did we talk about? Fat loss, right? Personalized fat loss.

Megan Dahlman: 51:13

Yeah, it was good, it was really good.

Philip Pape: 51:15

So check that out and keep coming back. And Megan, again, let's keep in touch because it's always awesome to talk to you. You're so full of energy and light and wisdom, which is a great combination.

Collagen Protein Does NOT Build Muscle (Bayesian Inference) | Ep 216

Collagen protein has been hyped as a muscle-building supplement, especially for older adults, but does it really deliver?

In this episode, we use Bayesian Inference – a powerful statistical tool – to evaluate the latest research on collagen's effectiveness for muscle growth.

Learn how to apply Bayesian thinking to fitness claims and make smarter decisions about your nutrition and training. Discover why you might need to rethink your protein supplement strategy and how to optimize your protein intake for real muscle gains.

To learn more about building muscle efficiently (and hear me bust other wild claims of the fitness industry), join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email

Main Takeaways:

• Bayesian Inference is a method of updating beliefs based on new evidence, crucial for evaluating fitness claims.

• Recent research examines whether collagen protein actually increases muscle protein synthesis.

• Protein quality, not just quantity, is important for muscle growth... at least to an extent.

• The Bayesian approach can be applied to all areas of fitness and nutrition to make more informed decisions.

Study Mentioned:

• McKendry, J., Lowisz, C. V., Nanthakumar, A., MacDonald, M., Lim, C., Currier, B. S., & Phillips, S. M. (2024). The effects of whey, pea, and collagen protein supplementation beyond the recommended dietary allowance on integrated myofibrillar protein synthetic rates in older males: a randomized controlled trial. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. - ScienceDirect

Episode summary:

In the latest episode, Philip takes a deep dive into the world of protein supplements, specifically targeting the popular yet controversial collagen protein. The episode challenges the efficacy of collagen protein for muscle growth, offering listeners a robust framework for evaluating fitness claims through Bayesian Inference. The episode is a treasure trove of critical thinking, scientific insights, and practical advice aimed at empowering fitness enthusiasts to make more informed nutrition and training decisions.

The podcast opens with an introduction to Bayesian Inference, a statistical method that allows for updating beliefs based on new evidence. This approach is crucial in the ever-evolving world of fitness and nutrition, where new studies and claims surface almost daily. Philip emphasizes the importance of this method in critically assessing the validity of fitness claims, particularly those surrounding collagen protein. He notes that many people, including some of his clients, rely on collagen peptides for their protein intake, often under the assumption that it is beneficial for muscle growth.

As the episode progresses, Philip discusses groundbreaking research conducted by James McKendry and Stuart Phillips. Their study compared the effects of whey, pea, and collagen proteins on muscle protein synthesis in older males. The findings were striking: while whey and pea proteins increased muscle protein synthesis by about 9% compared to a control diet, collagen protein showed no such benefit. This evidence strongly suggests that not all protein sources are equal when it comes to muscle growth, challenging the common belief that any protein will suffice.

Philip dives deeper into the implications of these findings. He suggests that whey or pea/rice protein might be better options for those aiming to build muscle. He also questions the necessity of collagen supplements for muscle growth when a balanced diet might offer similar benefits for skin, hair, and joint health. The discussion underscores the importance of protein quality, not just quantity, in achieving fitness goals. This point is particularly relevant for those who may be consuming a significant portion of their daily protein intake from collagen peptides.

The episode doesn't just stop at debunking myths; it also provides actionable advice for listeners. Philip encourages his audience to stay updated with the latest evidence-based information in nutrition, training, and fitness. He invites them to join his email list at witsandweights.com/email for exclusive content, articles, early access to new materials, and personalized advice. This call to action aims to create a community of informed and critical thinkers who can navigate the deluge of fitness information with confidence and clarity.

One of the standout moments of the episode is Philip's application of Bayesian Inference to the topic at hand. He explains that Bayesian Inference is essentially a method of updating our beliefs as we get new information. He uses this framework to evaluate the claim that collagen protein is effective for muscle growth. By starting with the initial belief that all protein sources are equally beneficial, and then adjusting this belief based on new evidence, Philip demonstrates a powerful tool for critical thinking that listeners can apply to any fitness claim.

The episode also addresses the broader benefits often attributed to collagen protein, such as improved skin, hair, and joint health. Philip notes that while there is some evidence supporting these claims, the benefits are often marginal and can likely be achieved through a well-balanced diet. He argues that the amino acids found in collagen are also present in other high-quality protein sources, making specific collagen supplementation unnecessary for most people. This perspective encourages listeners to focus on a diverse and nutrient-rich diet rather than relying on single supplements.

In summary, "Debunking the Collagen Protein Myth: Using Bayesian Inference to Inform Your Fitness Choices" is an episode that goes beyond merely debunking a popular fitness myth. It equips listeners with the tools and knowledge to critically assess any fitness claim, fostering a mindset of evidence-based decision-making. By the end of the episode, listeners are not only better informed about the limitations of collagen protein but also more adept at navigating the complex world of fitness and nutrition.

The episode is a must-listen for anyone serious about their fitness journey. Whether you're a seasoned athlete or just starting, the insights shared in this episode will help you make smarter, more informed choices about your nutrition and training. So, if you're tired of falling for fitness myths and want to stay ahead of the curve with evidence-based insights, this episode of "Wits and Weights" is for you. Keep your wits sharp, your weights heavy, and your mind open to new knowledge!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been spending money on collagen protein for muscle building or wondering whether it's worth the investment, this episode's for you. Today, we're breaking down the truth about collagen protein and muscle growth using a framework called Bayesian Inference. This is a powerful tool from statistics and engineering, and we'll use it to explore what the latest research says about collagen's effectiveness specifically, and why you might need to rethink your overall strategy, but, more generally, how to apply Bayesian thinking to any fitness claim so that you can make smarter decisions about your nutrition and training. So get ready not only to challenge your assumptions, but to learn how to challenge them and any claim out there, so that you can build muscle and train and eat more effectively. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:00

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're diving into a topic that might upend your protein supplement routine, because many of you are using collagen protein or you're wondering about it, and I often talk to potential clients and clients who say, yeah, I get 20 or 40 grams of my 120 grams of protein from collagen peptides. Is that effective? Or sometimes they just assume it is, and so today we are going to explore why collagen protein might not be the muscle building powerhouse or even helpful at all for muscle building that it's usually marketed at, especially to older individuals, who definitely are a market for anything talking about maintaining skeletal muscle mass. We're going to evaluate this claim using a powerful tool from statistics engineering called Bayesian inference. So if you're new to the podcast, the Wednesday episodes we take a framework or a concept from engineering and apply it to fitness, because it's a different perspective and a helpful way to apply our critical thinking skills to this topic, and then by the end of the episode, you'll have a new framework for evaluating any fitness claim. You see whether it's on Instagram, on a podcast, on my own show and then make smarter decisions for you about your nutrition Before we get into it. If you enjoy the show and you want more content on building muscle and losing fat efficiently, hit the follow button. That's all I ask that you do. Just hit the follow button in your podcast app so you'll get notified of the next episode, help more people find the show and also allow me to understand whether you like the show or a specific topic so that I can create more content like that.

Philip Pape: 2:37

So first let's talk about what Bayesian inference is In simple terms, it is a method of updating our beliefs as we get new information. That's all it is. It's named after Thomas Bayes, an 18th century statistician, and we're not going to get into any formulas or too much of that history. I want you to think of Bayesian inference like this you start with an initial belief about something, then you get some new evidence and, based on that evidence, you adjust your belief. It's just a simple mental workout for your critical thinking skills and something that we basically want to do to everything that comes our way, everything, every source of information that comes into our ears, our eyes, our brains. And you know who does this really well is my daughter both my daughters. So we homeschool our kids and they take logic something I never took as a kid, and I wish every human being had to take logic in grade school, especially politicians, but even fitness influencers, because the ability to identify logical fallacies and take evidence and adjust our beliefs is super important. But in the fitness world, you know, we are constantly bombarded with new information, with new studies, with new claims, and Bayesian thinking gives us a structured way to process all of this and then come to more accurate conclusions without necessarily having to dive deeply into all of the studies and all of the details at that level. And we're not saying that we're going to abandon all our prior beliefs every time. It's kind of like a scientific hypothesis. You know we have the hypothesis and the evidence comes in and supports the hypothesis over and over and over again and so it becomes a stronger and stronger belief. But eventually something might upend that that has never been studied before and it either rejects part or all of the hypothesis with the new information. And so, same thing in our brain we have these beliefs and we want to update the beliefs in proportion to the strength of the new evidence. So even it's not abandoning everything, it's just updating our beliefs proportionally.

Philip Pape: 4:37

So let's apply this to today's topic, which is collagen protein and muscle growth. Our prior belief, our starting point, might be that all protein sources are equally effective for building muscle. In fact I and many other people will say just get your total protein for the day from any source, whether it's animal, plant sources, and you're good. And generally I still stand by that statement because many people who are consuming collagen protein, it's probably a small percentage of their protein anyway, it's probably not a big deal. However, if you're trying to make choices and maybe even save some money in your supplements and not have to try to game the system with something that doesn't work, we want to dig in and say, well, what about collagen protein specifically? After all, protein's protein, right. And then this belief is reinforced by the supplement companies who market collagen as a muscle building aid, along with all these wonderful benefits for hair, skin, nails, right Kind of the beauty side of it, which you see prevalent in the beauty industry as well. Yeah, so here's where things get interesting.

Philip Pape: 5:46

There's a new study that came out. It was reviewed in mass the monthly application of strength sport a very well-respected research review from Stronger Byte Science, right, dr Eric Helms and those guys and it challenges the belief and this is where we can apply the Bayesian thinking. The study conducted by researchers like James McKendry and Stuart Phillips. It looked at the effects of different protein supplements on muscle protein synthesis in older males. So we've got they're isolating to the specific supplement, they're looking at how it affects muscle growth and they're looking at older population all the things we generally care about here. They compared whey protein, pea protein and collagen protein, and what they found is that both whey and pea protein increased muscle protein synthesis by about 9% compared to a control diet, but collagen protein didn't increase it at all Zero. So let's put on our Bayesian thinking caps.

Philip Pape: 6:43

We started with the belief that all proteins are equal for muscle growth. This evidence suggests strongly that that is not the case, and so we have to update our belief. So, in Bayesian terms, we are calculating the likelihood of collagen being effective for muscle growth. Given this new data and based on this study, that likelihood has dropped quite a bit. So what's our new, updated belief?

Philip Pape: 7:04

That not all proteins are equal when it comes to muscle growth, and we have evidence saying that whey and pea protein are, collagen isn't, and so this has some important implications. First, it suggests that when you choose a supplement for muscle growth whey or pea protein in fact, I prefer pea slash rice blend protein if you're vegan, vegetarian or you cannot tolerate dairy or whey products, so whey or pea and rice might be better choices than collagen. And second, it highlights the importance of protein quality, not just quantity, which sometimes gets dismissed because we say look, if you eat enough protein from multiple sources, you will not have to worry so much about quality, but I would argue that if you are heavily leaning toward one source that is low quality, that could have a negative impact on the overall quality. Now, this is just one study. This is just one study. So, in the spirit of Bayesian thinking, we should be open to updating our beliefs further as more evidence comes in. Maybe future studies will show a benefit to collagen for muscle growth in certain contexts, or maybe they'll just confirm what we just read.

Philip Pape: 8:08

So, practically, if your goal is to build muscle, I would just say there's no need to use collagen. Like most people, when they consume collagen, they're having to go out of their way to buy it as a specific source of protein, and I would say just don't worry about it. Just focus on high quality protein sources from food, mostly predominantly animal products if you're an omnivore, and then plant sources as well, but vegans, vegetarians, can get plenty of high quality protein just from a diverse diet. And as far as supplements, many of us who need a decent amount of protein, yeah, we've got to have a whey protein shake or pea slash rice protein shake in there. There's no issues with that. There's no problem with that. So we got whole food sources lean meats, fish, eggs, legumes, soybean type products, and then we have, of course, our supplements whey or pea slash rice.

Philip Pape: 8:57

Now you might say, well, what about all the other benefits of collagen? Right? Should I just stop taking it and then I avoid or I miss out on those benefits? So let's again Bayesian hat on here. Look at some of the other claimed benefits. The first one is skin health, and there is some evidence that collagen supplementation might improve skin elasticity and hydration. But and what I'm going to say here when I say, but for that? And the hair? Claim? So hair and nail strength, right? Sometimes evidence shows benefits of that. I think if you look at the confounding or moderating factors and somebody has just a generally good diet and are well hydrated, we see mixed to anecdotal or no implications whatsoever here, and I've found that people who start to eat more protein and eat more nutrient dense foods and a variety of foods actually have improved skin, hair and nail health anyway. And so then you wonder is it the collagen or not? Now, collagen has a couple of amino acids, so if you're getting protein from higher quality sources, you're still getting the amino acids that are also in collagen generally. So maybe that's where the benefit comes from, and then why isolate the protein to just collagen in that case if you're not also getting other benefits for the muscle side of the equation? That's my logic.

Philip Pape: 10:21

Joint health some studies indicate it might help reduce joint pain, for example in athletes and in people with osteoarthritis. It is not super strong evidence, but where there is evidence is for type 2 collagen, which is usually not the collagen that's contained in these peptides. You'd have to go out of your way to get a special supplement for that. Like I know, legion makes one called Fortify. That I personally take. It seems to be slightly helpful for me. I have a what do you call it, I can't think of the word with my hip when you're missing a little bit of the material in the cartilage. Uh, the, the the word escapes me, but, um, I do take it personally. I know others who found it quite helpful, uh, when they have joint pain or joint issues. Once they've addressed the other things like are you strength training, for example, are you squatting and deadlifting? Cause those are much more helpful for most people with joint health.

Philip Pape: 11:11

And then gut health there's a little bit of research suggesting collagen might support gut health, but again, I think it's confounded by the fact that a lot of people don't have great diets, a lot of people don't have diverse diets, and once you do have that, a lot of these issues get resolved right. So, yeah, these potential benefits are slightly interesting. But a well-balanced diet, rich in a variety of protein sources, should already provide the amino acids that your body needs for these functions, and you don't have to go out of your way and have bone broth and very specific things like that, necessarily. But if you have a variety of fruits, vegetables, lean meats the things we talked about they will support the skin health, joint health, gut health, without having a supplement.

Philip Pape: 11:55

So the goal here isn't to demonize collagen, it's just to understand its role and limitations. If you enjoy using it, if you feel you're benefiting from it that's another important factor is your individual response, and I've seen this. People are like well, I started taking it and all these things improved Great. Now I don't know if they also changed other things in their diet or they started changing the way they move or train, but you always want to isolate these variables one at a time and see, based on your biofeedback and results over, say, a several week period. Is it giving you anything meaningful as a result? If not, maybe that's telling you something. It definitely should not be your primary protein source for muscle building. So if you're trying to add more protein into your diet for that purpose, I would not recommend collagen.

Philip Pape: 12:36

So the real takeaway here isn't really about the collagen. It's about how we approach information in general with this Bayesian inference, this Bayesian thinking. When we do that, we first start with what we currently believe, based on the available evidence. Then we look at new studies or information with an open but critical mind. Then we update our beliefs based on the quality and strength, right, the proportion of that evidence, and then we've got to be willing to change our approach if that's what it suggests.

Philip Pape: 13:02

And I'm going through this on a constant basis as I research for this podcast, as I talk to all of you. You know, dear listeners, and you might hear my approach shift over the years slightly it's because new evidence is coming in. It's not because I'm a flip-flopper. Maybe I was ignorant as well. That's always a possibility as human beings, and I try to be as informed as possible. But being informed also means being open to change, and so this helps us navigate what seems like a very confusing world of fitness and nutrition advice with the diet trends, with the workouts, with the supplement claims. There's so much out there and a tool like this is very powerful, so remember that applying Bayesian thinking to your fitness is a way to evaluate a claim or trend. Start with your beliefs, consider new evidence, update your understanding and then you're equipped to make more informed decisions.

Philip Pape: 13:54

All right if you found value in today's episode. If you want to stay up to date with the latest evidence-based information for nutrition, training, fitness mindset, join my email list. Just go to witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in the show notes Again witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in the show notes and then you will get exclusive content, articles, early access to content, or maybe exclusive content and personalized advice to help you on your journey. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights and remember, in the world of nutrition, training, fitness, being open to new evidence is just as important as being consistent, taking action. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Why Weight Loss Always Fails (But Don't Ditch the Scale Yet) | Ep 215

What if weight loss is NOT the answer? Or even “maintaining” your weight loss?

If you’re tired of obsessing over the number on the scale, you feel stuck in a cycle of yo-yo dieting and frustration, or have ever been told that weight loss is the key to health and happiness…

And yet it’s just not working… this episode is for you.

Philip (@witsandweights)  exposes the weight loss myth that has plagued the fitness industry for years. He reveals why focusing on the scale sets you up for failure and how to shift your mindset toward body composition for lasting success. Learn how to use the scale as just one of many tools to track progress, and discover the freedom that comes with focusing on getting stronger, healthier, and more confident—without obsessing over weight.

⏬ Download my free Body Composition Nutrition Guide to help you set up your nutrition for losing fat (not just weight!), building muscle, and looking and feeling your best at: https://www.witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:14 Why the scale obsession is harmful
4:56 Muscle loss and weight loss drugs
7:53 Using the scale as an objective tool
9:24 Tracking progress with multiple metrics
12:08 The liberating shift to focusing on body composition
14:00 What you should be doing for lasting success
16:20 Client story: Body recomposition without weight loss
20:47 The dangers of focusing solely on weight loss
21:07 Outro

Episode resources:

• Fat Loss vs. Weight Loss

• How Fast Should You Lose Weight for Fat Loss?

• How to Lose 1,000 Pounds

👊 Shout out to Carl Berryman of the MENtal Muscle-Up Podcast for the question that inspired this episode

Episode summary:

What if the relentless pursuit of a lower number on the scale is actually sabotaging your fitness journey? In this episode of the podcast, we delve into why focusing solely on weight loss can be detrimental to your overall health and wellness. Inspired by Carl Berryman, host of the Mental Muscle Up podcast, we dismantle the myth that weight loss should be the ultimate goal in fitness. Instead, we emphasize the importance of body composition and overall wellness, offering a more sustainable and healthier approach to fitness.

The episode begins by tackling the pervasive myth of weight loss obsession. Many of us have been conditioned to equate success, health, and attractiveness with losing weight. However, this mindset often leads to frustration, yo-yo dieting, and even weight gain. The scale, despite its bad reputation, is not the enemy. It can be a valuable tool if used correctly, focusing on improving how you look, feel, and perform rather than merely losing weight. We explore why weight loss as a goal is not just ineffective but harmful and provide insights into a more holistic and sustainable approach to fitness.

One of the key points discussed is the science behind weight fluctuations. Your weight can swing by several pounds within a single day due to factors like diet, hydration, and hormonal changes. This makes the scale an unreliable indicator of health. Instead of fixating on scale weight, we should prioritize body composition, focusing on the ratio of fat mass to lean mass. This approach provides a more accurate picture of health and helps avoid the pitfalls of an unhealthy obsession with weight, such as yo-yo dieting and improper exercise habits.

Transforming how you view the scale is crucial. Treat it as one data point among many. We advocate for daily weigh-ins to capture trends over time, smoothing out daily fluctuations through an exponential moving average over three weeks. This method, combined with other metrics like progress photos, body circumference measurements, strength gains, and biofeedback, offers a comprehensive picture of progress. Understanding the impact of factors like a new training program on scale weight can help interpret data more accurately.

Shifting the focus from weight loss to body composition involves understanding that gaining weight rapidly is often due to factors like water retention, not fat gain. By treating the scale as just one data point among many, such as waist measurements and strength progress, you avoid letting it dictate your mood or self-worth. Emphasizing resistance training, adequate protein intake, and a nutrient-dense diet supports muscle building and fat loss. This holistic approach requires patience but offers sustainable results.

The episode also discusses the importance of breaking free from the traditional weight loss mentality. Instead of focusing on losing weight, prioritize improving body composition. Download the free Body Composition Nutrition Guide to support you in making meaningful, lasting changes to your fitness journey. Remember, you are much more than a number on a scale. Use wisdom and strength in your fitness journey.

A real-life testimonial from Shawnetta highlights the value of this holistic approach. She shares how focusing on body composition rather than weight loss has been transformative. This mindset shift allows you to build healthier habits and achieve lasting results without the emotional rollercoaster associated with weight fluctuations.

In summary, this episode challenges the weight loss obsession that has plagued the fitness industry for decades. It offers a more effective approach to health and fitness by prioritizing body composition over mere weight loss. By using the scale as a tool for tracking progress rather than an emotional trigger, you can achieve a more sustainable and healthier transformation. This episode provides valuable insights and practical tips for anyone looking to revolutionize their fitness journey.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been trying to lose weight for what feels like forever, constantly jumping from one diet to the next, and you find yourself obsessing over the number on the scale, feeling elated when it drops and devastated when it doesn't, this episode is for you. Today, I'm going to expose why weight loss as a goal is setting you up for failure and why the scale, despite its bad rap, isn't the real enemy. We'll explore why focusing solely on weight loss leads to frustration, yo-yo dieting and often ending up heavier than when you started, and you'll learn how to use the scale effectively as just one tool in your arsenal and what you should really be focusing on for a lasting body transformation. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we are tearing down one of the most pervasive and damaging myths in the fitness industry, and that is the obsession with weight loss. Now, this episode was inspired by a question from my friend and brother, Carl Berryman, host of the Mental Muscle Up podcast, and Carl asked, quote why do fitness professionals insist on talking about losing weight and weight loss when, according to the evidence, this approach has been proven to fail over and over again for the vast majority of people and, Carl, as always, you've gone straight for the jugular. I couldn't agree more. I wanted to address this topic today, and we are going to expose why focusing on weight loss is not just ineffective, it's worse than that it is harmful. And what you should be doing instead. Now, before we dive in, I do have something special for you. I've created a free guide. It's called the Body Composition Nutrition Guide and it's going to help you set up your nutrition for what we talk about in this episode Losing fat, building muscle, looking and feeling great, not focusing or obsessing over scale weight and if you want your free copy, just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. This guide will give you the exact blueprint you need to start focusing on. What really matters which will be clear from this episode is not losing weight, but improving how you look, feel and perform. So again, go to witsandweightscom slash free, or click the link in my show notes.

Philip Pape: 2:14

All right, let's get into it and talk about this weight loss obsession that has plagued the fitness industry for probably decades at this point, and it still does. You've seen it everywhere Promises of rapid fat loss, the miracle diets, the detoxes, the quick fix programs, even the bigger programs, the Weight Watchers and Optiveas of the world, are still in that realm of you know, you need to lose weight fast and we're going to help you get there. And there's this constant push to make the number on the scale go down. That's what it's all about. The reality is that this obsession isn't helping anyone. It probably hasn't helped you. It's not just ineffective, that's the thing. It's actually harmful. It's harmful. And the core issue is that we've been conditioned. We've been conditioned through society, through our upbringing, through just everything in our environment, the Western world in particular, to equate weight loss with success, with health, with attractiveness right, we even know that being too heavy on the scale does correlate with negative health outcomes. So then, that would lead you to believe okay, all I need to do is lose weight. But the equation is fundamentally flawed. Like many things, it misses context and nuance, it misses the whole picture and it's going to make it hard on yourself if you stop there, Because your weight, yes, it's just a number, All right.

Philip Pape: 3:33

It's a number that fluctuates wildly, All right, and it's based on factors that have nothing to do, oftentimes, with your actual health or fitness level and it doesn't necessarily speak to all the factors that affect your health or fitness. Just think about this right, Very simple example. Everyone will understand your weight can swing by several pounds in a single day. A single day. If you got up in the morning and you stepped on the scale, and then an hour later, four hours later, at night, you know, take six scale measurements during the day, day, and you will see how much your weight swings in one day. Now, it's based on what you've eaten, it's based on what's in your gut, it's based on your hormonal cycle, it's based on your training so many things.

Philip Pape: 4:15

And just the logic of that, the fact that your weight can be six different numbers in a single day, should kind of tell you that it's not super helpful in many respects, and yet we still put so much stock in it. So I mean it's bad enough when we go from day to day and we're way ourself, or week to week, and then we freak out over you know it going up two pounds, and I could say, hey, it's just due to water weight or this or that. But when you look at it in a single day and notice that that's happening. That should kind of give you a wake-up call that, hmm, there's something more to this, right, there's something about our body mass that gets measured on the scale. That in and of itself isn't really that helpful, but it does go deeper than that.

Philip Pape: 4:54

I think it really does, because even if you then, let's say, you focus on the scale weight, you manage to lose weight, that doesn't mean you're fitter, it doesn't mean you're healthier. You could and most likely are losing muscle mass, and that is the opposite of what you want for long-term health and an improved physique. And we see this in very short order for those taking the new class of weight loss drugs and I'm not judging the drugs here at all. What I'm mentioning is that those who are on it, we see a rapid loss of muscle, and it's not that they cause you to lose more muscle than weight loss alone. It's just that they're causing you to lose weight very fast, which then leads to more muscle loss, which is just scaling up the negative outcome that happens with most of us when we diet or crash diet and we're not doing the right things. You know we're not strength training and all the other things that we do to hold onto that muscle. So I'm going off on little tangents.

Philip Pape: 5:48

But back to the weight loss fixation. It leads to just all negative issues. It leads to an unhealthy relationship not only with the skill itself, but also with food, with exercise, because you're starting to create a connection that is not a real connection. It's not a healthy connection, but you think it is, and therefore it promotes you to do things that are not sustainable or can harm you. Crash diets, doing way too much cardio than you really need, maybe not lifting weights, I mean Optivia, I think, encourages people not to exercise, which is insane, and it sets you up for the cycle that many of us have experienced through our lives is yo-yo dieting, whatever you want to call it going on a diet, coming off a diet, regaining the weight.

Philip Pape: 6:30

Going on a diet, coming off a diet, regaining the weight and feeling like it's getting harder and harder the older we get. So what's the alternative then? The alternative is changing how we think about fitness and body transformation and then reverse, engineering that back to the things that we really want to track and measure and seeing where scale weight maybe fits into that context in a more objective way. So, instead of obsessing over weight loss, which is a term I almost always try to avoid, unless I'm specifically talking about literal, just losing scale weight as part of the overall picture of fat loss. Instead of obsessing over it, we want to focus on body composition. Right, that is, the ratio of fat mass to lean mass in your body, which is? It sounds like a subtle difference, but it's a massive difference because weight is one variable, body mass requires multiple variables, and then that gives you the true picture of what's going on and it changes everything. It changes everything because when you prioritize body composition, you're not a slave to the scale and you can start appreciating the complexity of your body, the beauty of your body, instead of reducing it to a single number, and you can start learning about it and changing your behavior with real data that tells you what's going on in a healthy way, in a positive way of improvement and self-growth.

Philip Pape: 7:53

Now I'm not telling you to ditch the scale. That is another kind of overreaction in the industry. The ditch the scale movement right, I see it all the time in podcast episodes. Ditch the scale. I might've even had it in one or two of my episodes with guests. And when you think about it.

Philip Pape: 8:09

The scale weight itself is just a tool, right, Like a scale is just a tool that gives you a number of how much gravity is pulling you down to the earth. That's it right. There should be nothing emotional about that and in fact, I prefer daily weigh-ins. I prefer daily weigh-ins for myself and my clients and anybody listening as a useful tool when used correctly and when you interpret it and use that data the right way.

Philip Pape: 8:33

So instead of reacting to each individual weigh-in especially when you're not weighing yourself frequently and it's just random we look at the trend over time, and that's where having the daily weigh-ins can be helpful. In my coaching program, we use an exponential moving average over about three weeks okay, and that comes straight from what other experts and apps use to calculate trend weight over time. The app Macrofactor uses it that way as well, and by using a moving average over three weeks, it smooths out the daily fluctuations that are inevitable and it gives us a clear picture of the overall direction that our body mass is moving, which is a better indicator of change in body mass and then, hopefully, change in fat mass. But again, it's not the only thing that tells us to change in fat mass. It is one piece. Right, it is just one piece. So once you've resolved the okay I hear what you're saying, Philip weigh myself daily and don't care about the daily number, just care about the trend over time. And by weighing yourself daily you have enough resolution, enough, you know detail to get that smoothed out number. Then we add that in to other metrics like progress photos, like body circumference measurements, like your strength gains in the gym, like your biofeedback, energy levels, recovery, mood, sex drive, all of it, how your clothes fit right. It's this combination of data points that's going to give us a true picture of progress. And when you have that approach, it just liberates you. It frees you from the emotional rollercoaster of weighing yourself, even if you are doing it daily, and in fact when you're doing it daily, it almost becomes a non-issue. Okay, I weigh myself every day. I see the number. Not only that, here's the cool thing. The scale itself is just a data point and can now become a useful data point in certain ways, Because I was just talking to a client on our group coaching calls the other day and she was struggling with this a little bit.

Philip Pape: 10:29

She said okay, I understand all the reasons that scale weight changes. I'm taking my weight daily and yet still I sometimes have a little bit of a reaction when the scale pops in a given day and I said, well, you just switched to a new training program three weeks ago, right? I said yeah, I went from a three-day full body to a four-day split. I said can we look at the pattern with those bumps in your scale weight? Is that happening the day after your heavy leg training day? Because using large muscle groups in your training tears more of the muscle. It causes more recovery and inflammation and that actually causes more fluid retention overnight. That causes the scale weight potentially to go up or not go down as much. If you're in a fat loss phase. Ah, that's pretty cool. Now you can take that data point and use it as an indicator of what you're doing right and you can correlate it with reality rather than assume that it's because you're just getting a bunch of fat.

Shonnetta: 11:23

Hi, my name is Shawnetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away, thanks.

Philip Pape: 12:08

Philip, for all you do. Another way to think of it is this way you would have to over-consume by 3,500 calories in a day, over-consume beyond your maintenance calories, to gain a pound of fat. So if you go from one day to the next and you gain three pounds on the scale and you ate pretty much the same you normally do, well, then it's not fat. It's a very liberating thing when you realize that. And so then the scale becomes one data point in a sea of data points, no more important than your squat PR, your waist measurements. You're not letting a number dictate your mood anymore, dictate your self-worth, dictate your actions for the day. It's just hey, cool, look, that happened. Let me understand why. Great, move on, because I'm doing all the other things that I know are going to, in the long term, produce the thing I'm going for, which is improved body composition, and that allows you to focus, then, on building those healthy, sustainable habits that improve that right Becoming stronger, becoming healthier, becoming more confident, not just lighter on the scale. And, of course, there's always a time and place especially if you're carrying excess weight from a metabolic health perspective where it's a negative thing to be heavier on the scale and you want to drop some of that, great, it's fine, but do it again in the context of improving your body composition. No one says you just have to drop a bunch of weight to get healthy and don't focus on body composition. No, no, you can do both at the same time and in fact, when you focus on body composition, it's even easier to drop that weight because you're building muscle along the way and you're becoming fitter, becoming more athletic. It's fantastic, it's an amazing place to be. And then when you shift your focus, you find that you know, losing fat and then reaching your ideal weight just happens right. It happens like as a side effect of a more holistic, sustainable approach. And again, I'm not saying that weight loss is the goal, but the weight on the scale will come as a lagging indicator of all the other things you're doing. We are not going after weight loss. So what do you actually do? This is not going to be a how-to episode. I've got plenty of other episodes. Maybe I can drop a few in the show notes with.

Philip Pape: 14:07

Like you know, here's how we set all this up, but it's very simple. Number one straight train. You've always got to be training to build and maintain muscle mass. If you're listening to this show, or if you just came across this show and you're not lifting weights and you're like, no, I just care about weight loss, or I just care about weight loss, or I just care about fat loss, or I just care about nutrition. Sorry, that's not going to cut it. You have to be resistance training for it all to work.

Philip Pape: 14:29

That's how body composition gets improved is by building and maintaining muscle mass. Period. It is the most important thing, right? Yes, nutrition is the lever to modify your fat loss, but training has to be there for the muscle side of the equation. And then to support that, you have to eat enough protein and enough nutrient-dense whole foods as part of your diet, a flexible diet, to get there to support your training. Then, if and when you need to lose fat in a meaningful sense and, yes, part of that is dropping scale weight well then you're going to go into that calorie deficit while you're training and getting the protein.

Philip Pape: 15:03

And then, along the way, you're going to track and measure a bunch of things. You're going to track scale weight, but also all the other things we talked about progress photos, body metrics and so on, and then you're, of course, going to be patient, because none of this is quick. Real change takes time, but it will actually, in an ironic twist, happen faster than if you just forced it because of scale weight. It'll actually happen faster and in the right way. You're going to feel and look better, even if the scale weight isn't dropping as fast, and ultimately, isn't that what we're going for? Like, you're happy with your physique and how you feel, how you perform, how you function. So the bottom line is weight loss as a primary goal is a dead end and it is outdated, it is ineffective, it doesn't work. We instead shift our focus to body composition, we use the objective tool of the scale in a smarter way and then we achieve the lasting, meaningful changes that we're looking for in our bodies, in our lives. Right, and it's not just about looking better. Okay, I know that's a nice side effect we're all going for. It's building a healthier relationship with your body, with your food, with your movement, your training, so that you can do this the rest of your life. You can become the strongest, most capable version of yourself, and that is just who you are. And it doesn't feel like you're always dieting for weight loss.

Philip Pape: 16:20

And I want to end here with a quick story that I think will drive the point home from one of my clients I'm going to call her Lauren I like to protect my client's privacy unless they've given me permission to share their name or their info. And she came to me frustrated, like so many do, because she had been trying to lose weight for years without success. And now she's a little bit older, as the kid, the stressful job, perimenopause in her late 40s and she was always on and off diets usually a low carb diet or intermittent fasting was pretty common. She had done both and I can feel you there Very common People try these. She was doing hours of cardio and boot camps, spin classes. She was weighing herself obsessively, I'll call it. In other words, she was weighing herself for the sole purpose of getting that dopamine hit, to see if it went down. But then she'd get frustrated because she would use that as her only measure of progress.

Philip Pape: 17:12

And so when we started working together, we shifted her focus. We had her still weigh daily, and this is where a lot of people get shocked. They're like wait a minute, if you have an unhealthy relationship with a scale, do you want to keep weighing yourself? And the answer is. Yes, it's almost like I don't want to like the face, your fears, mentality, where, now that you're working with someone who gives you a different perspective on it, the thing no longer carries power over you and therefore you can use it for you instead of it using you. Ooh, that's, that's not bad, is it? So we still had our way every day, but I helped her put that data in the context right, focusing not on the daily fluctuations but the trend. And then that was one single objective data point. And then, more importantly, I put her on a structured strength training program where she would progressively overload and actually get stronger and build muscle. And then, of course, we optimized her nutrition and lifestyle to support that for muscle growth and then, eventually, fat loss.

Philip Pape: 18:05

And after two months, that's usually about when it starts to make some significant, meaningful progress she was having. She was making progress, but not necessarily happy with everything happening, because she was looking at the scale and the scale hadn't changed very much. So some of that lingering emotion with the scale was there. And then I, we sat down, we did a check-in. I showed her okay, let's look at your measurements. Your waist came down right, your progress photos, more muscle definition how much fricking stronger she had gotten. Like you know, some of her lifts doubling in just a few months, and that's not uncommon when you're doing it the right way.

Philip Pape: 18:39

And so the difference was stark. She had lost significant fat around her midsection. She had gained visible muscle mass in her arms, in her legs, she had dropped about 3% body fat, which you know again, that's the way I calculate it with measurements. You're in the ballpark of measuring that accurately. And yet the scale had hardly even budged, and we weren't trying to make it budge. And that's part of the issue is that she was, you know, kind of stuck in the mindset of of am I actually making progress? Because the scale's not moving. And once we put into the context, well, actually you're energy for her training and recovery, not to mention her hormones, not to mention better sleep. Her body weight stayed almost exactly the same, but her body composition had improved dramatically and she looked and felt stronger and sexier. Right, and that's what a lot of us are going for Now.

Philip Pape: 19:40

If Lauren had been focused solely on weight loss, she might've given up, she might have missed out on the incredible transformation that she was experiencing in just those first two months and, yes, it's sometimes hard to notice this without a second pair of eyes, like a coach, helping you examine the evidence about your own physique changes Very hard sometimes. And that is the power of focusing on body composition instead of skill, and that is the power of focusing on body composition instead of scale. So, as we wrap up, I want to leave you with this your worth, your health, your progress are not defined by that number on the scale. They're defined by how you feel, how you perform, the habits you build day in and day out, the systems that you build, if you will. So I'm going to challenge you on this Don't ditch the scale, but put it in its place right, use it as the objective tool.

Philip Pape: 20:27

It is just like macro tracking, just like measurements, just like your lifting progress. Why not weigh yourself consistently rather than haphazardly, but focus on the long-term trend and not the daily fluctuations, and then view that as one of many indicators of progress and then track with all the other things we talked about, because the goal here is not to be lighter. As Carl mentioned, weight loss is an insidious goal to go after. It does not help, it is ineffective and it is dangerous. The goal is to be healthier, stronger, more confident right, and that comes from improving your body composition, not losing weight, and then, when you have the whole context, you'll have a much clearer picture of your true progress.

Philip Pape: 21:08

So I hope that helped everyone today. I hope that you are ready to break free from the weight loss mentality and start focusing on what matters. And if you want to do that, don't forget to grab your free body composition nutrition guide, which is linked in the show notes. Or go to witsandweightscom slash free, and that'll give you the blueprint you need to start focusing on what really matters here, which is your body composition. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting some weights, and remember you are so much more than a number on a scale. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Your Genetics ARE to Blame for Weight Gain and Body Fat with Dr. Stephan Guyenet | Ep 214

Are you frustrated by the stubborn body fat that won't come off despite all your efforts? Do you ever wonder if it's all due to lack of discipline, or could there be a deeper reason? And how much do your genetics actually play a role in your fat loss journey?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the fascinating world of neuroscience and body composition with special guest Dr. Stephan Guyenet, a neuroscientist, obesity researcher, and author of The Hungry Brain. They explore the science behind why some people struggle more than others to lose weight and how genetics might be the hidden force shaping your body fat levels. Dr. Guyenet also breaks down how the brain’s reward system influences your cravings and reveals how minor tweaks to your environment and habits can make a huge difference in your fat loss efforts.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet has spent over a decade studying the neuroscience of obesity. With a PhD in neuroscience, his work focuses on the brain's role in regulating body fat and how our modern environment contributes to weight gain. He is also the founder of Red Pen Reviews, which provides scientific accuracy scores for popular health and nutrition books.

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15-minute call.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:07 Genetics vs. environment: What really causes differences in body fat?
3:48 When do genetic predispositions for body fat develop?
7:56 Why we care about body fat: Individual health and misinformation
11:58 Muscle mass and body fat: How energy overload impacts health
17:24 How your brain regulates hunger and satiety
29:53 Metabolic adaptation during fat loss
32:42 The carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity debunked
44:05 Making body composition changes easier and frictionless
51:54 Insights from studying naturally lean people
54:33 Where to find Stephan
54:49 Outro

Episode resources:

• Dr. Stephan Guyenet’s Website: stephanguyenet.org 

• Twitter: @sguyenet 

• Red Pen Reviews: redpenreviews.org

Episode summary:

Ever wondered why some people seem to struggle more with their weight despite being in similar environments? This intriguing question forms the crux of a recent podcast episode featuring Dr. Stephan Guyenet, a leading neuroscientist and obesity researcher. Dr. Guyenet sheds light on the complex interplay between genetics and body fatness, offering insights that go beyond mere willpower and delve into the biology that governs our eating behaviors and calorie intake.

From the very beginning, the episode challenges listeners to reconsider their preconceptions about weight management. By comparing two individuals in identical environments who exhibit different levels of body fat over time, Dr. Guyenet emphasizes the significant role that genetics play in body composition. Genetic predispositions, he explains, primarily influence brain functions related to eating behavior and calorie intake, leading to variations in body fat accumulation. Understanding these genetic factors is crucial for achieving health and physique goals, as it allows us to work with our biology rather than against it.

The conversation takes a deeper dive into the genetic factors that influence body weight from as early as the embryonic phase, continuing to have varying effects throughout different life stages. One of the key genes discussed is the melanocortin-4 receptor, whose mutations can significantly impact body fatness by disrupting the brain's ability to gauge energy status. This understanding is vital for both personal and public health outcomes, as it highlights the importance of accurate, science-based knowledge in the field of nutrition and health.

Dr. Guyenet also explores the concept of energy overload, emphasizing the critical balance between calorie consumption and physical activity. Overconsumption of energy leads to excess fat storage and eventually causes metabolic issues like insulin resistance and beta cell failure. Here, the importance of muscle activity as an energy sink is highlighted. Physical activity, rather than mere muscle mass, is key to mitigating energy excess. This is because active muscles have a high metabolic rate, pulling energy out of circulation and reducing exposure to other tissues.

The episode delves into how non-conscious brain circuits regulate appetite, cravings, and satiety. These circuits evolved in environments vastly different from today's, influencing our current struggles with weight gain and body fatness. For example, the hypothalamus, a part of the brain, regulates body fatness by measuring the level of body fat using the hormone leptin. When leptin levels drop, the brain increases appetite and lowers metabolic rate to regain lost fat, making it challenging to lose fat and keep it off.

Food properties and their impact on satiety are another crucial topic discussed. Less calorie-dense foods like oatmeal provide greater fullness compared to calorie-dense foods like crackers. This understanding is essential for those looking to manage their weight effectively. Dr. Guyenet also touches on the concept of metabolic adaptation during fat loss, noting that decreased tissue mass and other factors can lower energy needs as one loses weight.

The episode critiques the carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity, which posits dietary carbohydrates as the main driver of obesity due to their effect on insulin secretion and fat accumulation. Dr. Guyenet cites evidence from various cultures, rodent studies, and human intervention trials to challenge this model. Genetic studies link higher body fatness to brain activity rather than insulin or fat cells, suggesting that multiple factors, particularly those related to brain function, play a significant role in obesity.

Macronutrient restriction, such as low-carb or low-fat diets, is also explored as a strategy for controlling calorie intake and promoting weight loss. Dr. Guyenet emphasizes the importance of understanding and leveraging the brain's non-conscious systems to make dietary changes more sustainable. By choosing foods that enhance satiety per calorie and managing food cues in one's environment, it's possible to work with the brain's natural responses rather than against them.

The modern food environment is highlighted as a significant factor in the obesity epidemic. The episode stresses the importance of making strategic food choices to align with our brain's regulatory mechanisms. For example, controlling food cues in your personal environment can help manage cravings and reduce overeating. This approach is similar to strategies used to quit smoking, where avoiding cues that trigger the desire to smoke can be effective.

In conclusion, this podcast episode with Dr. Stephan Guyenet offers a comprehensive look at the genetic and brain-related factors influencing body fatness. It provides actionable strategies for managing weight and body fatness by balancing calorie consumption and physical activity. By understanding and working with our biology, we can achieve our health and physique goals more effectively. The episode challenges common obesity theories and offers new perspectives on achieving sustainable fat loss in a modern food environment.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Maybe you're putting in the work, tracking your meals, training four days a week, eating more whole foods but no matter what you do, the body fat isn't coming off. It's frustrating and you can't help but wonder is it all my fault? Am I not working hard enough? Is there something more at play? You might be tempted to blame your lack of discipline, but what if I told you the real culprit is hiding in your jeans, pulling strings in your brain that make fat loss feel like an uphill battle. Today we're getting into the cutting edge neuroscience of body fatness, with a leading obesity researcher who spent over a decade studying why some of us struggle more than others to maintain a healthy weight and body composition. You'll discover why willpower alone often isn't enough, how your brain's reward system might be sabotaging your efforts and, most importantly, what you can actually do about it if you have health and physique goals. Get ready to learn why your genetics play a bigger role than you thought and how to work with your biology, not against it, to finally achieve the results you've been after. To finally achieve the results you've been after.

Philip Pape: 1:11

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're bridging the fascinating worlds of neuroscience and body composition with Dr Stephan Guyenet. Now, stephan is a neuroscientist and obesity researcher. He's also a proficient science communicator who has spent well over a decade studying the connections between our brains and our waistlines. He has a PhD in neuroscience and his work has been cited, let's just say, thousands of times. Dr Guyenet is also the author of the Hungry Brain and the founder of Red Pen Reviews, which scores nutrition and health books based on their scientific accuracy. Today, you'll learn how our genes and brain pathways influence our weight and body fat levels and what strategies we can use to manage them, despite our genetic predispositions. We'll also explore where muscle mass fits into all of this and address other theories of obesity and body fatness you may have heard about Stefan.

Philip Pape: 2:05

Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, philip. So I want to start with a thought experiment, because you've probably been asked every question I could have thought of here with the circuit that you're on with podcasts. But imagine we have two people that are, let's say, 20 years old and they have just about everything is the same gender, weight, height, muscle mass, even their environment and you fast forward 30 years or 50 years old, and one has significantly more body fat than the other. Where would you start to speculate as to the primary cause or causes that got them to that point?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 2:37

So you're describing two people who have very similar, if not identical, environment, right? Yes, am I getting okay? Okay, so if you're holding environment relatively constant, then the thing that's really going to be determining differences in body fatness is genetics. So, really, what we are is a gene by environment interaction. So either it's genes are differing to cause us to be different or environment is differing, and if you're holding environment constant, then it's going to be genes, and so what I would expect is that those two people differ in the genetics that predispose them to gain body fat and that those genetics are primarily expressed in how their brains developed and operate. So, primarily, genetics related to brain function, and the brain functions that are impacted are primarily, but not exclusively, brain functions related to eating behavior that result in differences in calorie intake, particularly relative to calorie needs.

Philip Pape: 3:41

Okay, yeah, perfect. So you set it up nicely. There was no surprise there, fortunately, that we're talking about genetics being a determinant and we'll get into why that matters and what people can do about it. But you mentioned when the brain develops, how early in one's life, maybe to the embryo phase and maybe like it's just predetermined, so to speak. Does that matter and is it influenced? And maybe environment comes into play there with epigenetics. But you help us understand when you say develops. What are the key factors there?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 4:12

Yeah. So I will start off by saying that there is a lot left to learn about how genetics impacts brain activity in a way that determines differences in body fatness. So we've identified a lot of the genetic locations that differ between people who are leaner and people who are fatter and we've been able to trace most of those differences, to necessarily trace those differences in brain activity back to exactly you know how those are causing people to become fatter. So in many cases the genes that are causing differences in body fatness are like some neurotransmitter, that is, you know some neurotransmitter receptor that's expressed in many parts of the brain and it's not really clear exactly what it's doing to make people fatter or leaner, probably having you know a thousand different effects on the brain, and the net result of all that is somebody's slightly you know slightly more likely to put the fork to their mouth again at a meal. And you know most of these genetic differences are only having very small effects on body fatness individually. It's only when you aggregate them, aggregate probably thousands of different genetic differences that it results in differences in body fatness.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 5:34

But let me try to answer your question in a different way. So I'm getting that. What you're asking is something about like when do these things start to be expressed in the developmental cycle? Is that kind of what you're asking? Is something about like when did these things start to be expressed at in the developmental cycle? Is that? Is that kind of what you're asking?

Philip Pape: 5:49

Yeah, I'm so curious about all this stuff. It's not like we're going to design designer babies here or anything. People ultimately want to know what they can do about this. But yeah, I'm just understanding. Is it like when you're born and how you're born? Is it how you're raised? Do you have pets and you play outside? A lot of the things, like when we talk about gut health and epigenetics, for example. You almost change the genes trajectory as you grow up. That's what I was curious about.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 6:14

Yeah, I mean. So we don't have a complete picture, but we do know that there are some genes that will have a lifelong effect and there are some genes that seem to only cause differences in body fatness in adulthood or even in infancy, in specific parts of your life. So we know, for example, that there are mutations in melanocortin-4 receptor, which is part of the appetite and body fatness regulating system in the brain, that cause early onset obesity. So you can identify if you look specifically for children with unusual children who have an unusually large amount of body fat, and you screen them for this mutations, you're going to find that a pretty significant percentage of them have these melanocortin for receptor mutations.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 7:08

Yeah, those basically cut a line of communication between your body's energy status and your brain, so your brain can't really hear about all the energy that you have in your body and your brain tends to think you're starving all the time. So those people, throughout their entire lives, will have a higher level of body fatness. But there are other genes that will make a fat baby but not a fat adult. And then there are other genes that will make a fat adult but not a fat baby, and so there's really like almost everything you can imagine is present there in that picture of the relationship between genetics and body fatness.

Philip Pape: 7:45

Yeah, I think it's fascinating that we're even more unique than we think. Like we say, we're unique individuals, but when you combine the thousands or millions of interactions going on, it's incredible. So I guess I want to take a step back now before we go forward. And that is why do we have these conversations? Why do you go out and communicate about body fatness in general? Why do we care? You know, it might sound, might seem obvious, but like what's the big deal, and I know there's a lot of factors there, like obesity and whatnot. But kind of at the individual level, why do, why do we care about this?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 8:15

So wait, you're asking why do I personally care, or why should we all care?

Philip Pape: 8:19

Sure, why do you care? Why should we care? Why should an individual care?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 8:29

Well, for me, I care simply because, yeah, I mean it's a great question to ask me why I care, because I don't get paid for this. This has, you know, all the science communication I do has nothing. You know, very little money is flowing into my coffers from these activities. So I mean, I just think it's important for people to have accurate information from these activities. So I mean, I just think it's important for people to have accurate information, and I think that the diet, nutrition, health, weight loss space is one where there's a ton of misinformation. We've been documenting that thoroughly in our reviews at Red Pen Reviews and quantifying it, and what we can see is that the information that the nutrition information environment that the public is bathing in is low to moderate quality. So any particular claim that you hear in your nutrition information environment is likely to be a low to moderate quality claim. There's a lot of variability, so some of the information is excellent, some of it is absolute garbage and everything in between, but on average it's not very good, and so, for me, I just think people deserve to have accurate information and particularly working as a scientist and also a communicator a science communicator I see the gap between what's happening in the scientific community and what's happening in the scientific community and what's happening in the popular nutrition and health and weight loss sphere, and not to say that scientists always have the right answers. There's a lot of bad information in the scientific community too, but the information tends to be higher quality than what you see in the public sphere. And so, yeah, I just think it's important for people to have information that's as accurate as possible so they can make the best decisions they can make. So that's what motivates me to be in this space.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 10:16

As far as why anyone should care, I mean, I think body fatness is important, right, like that's an important variable that you can modify to achieve whatever your goals are for your own health and well-being in your life, and I would say it's one of the more important levers there is for modifying your health.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 10:38

And, furthermore, I think that it's interesting, right? We just like to learn about ourselves, and particularly, you know, the links between brain and body fatness. To me, that's very, very interesting because it links the brain, which is the organ, more than anything else, that makes us who we are, right, like, more than anything else about us, the brain is what makes us who we are, and it's a little bit counterintuitive, like most people don't intuitively understand that the brain has a lot to do with body fatness, even though the brain is what generates all of our behaviors, including our eating behavior. It's just like, for some reason, the you know two and two doesn't come together necessarily without a little bit of education. And yeah, I think it's just a really interesting connection. Yeah, I do as well. That's why I wanted to talk to you and yeah, I think it's just a really interesting connection.

Philip Pape: 11:26

Yeah, I do as well. That's why I wanted to talk to you and I love hearing the history behind this and how, even since you wrote your book the Hungry Brain, even some of your thoughts have evolved with, for example, the additive versus the constrained model and other things that interact with our metabolism and our energy system and the accurate information piece. I'm glad you started there, because I was technically just asking about body fat as a mechanism and what you pointed out is that let's even go at a higher level. Are we even trusting the right sources for information before we even go there? You said it's one of the most important levers there is for modifying your health. I totally agree. What I'm curious about now is where does it rank when compared to muscle mass? And maybe part of the answer is that they're actually kind of go hand in hand, Because when we talk about body fat, we're also talking about percentage of body fat in your body which is relative to muscle mass. So what are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 12:21

Yeah. So let me just start off by saying that I'm not as much of an expert on muscle mass, so just want to caveat with that. I think being physically fit is really important. I think definitely using your body and staying strong and fit is a very important determinant of physical function and health as we age physical function and health as we age.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 12:48

So my kind of high level concept of the problem with our health in the modern world. The main problem is that we are suffering from energy overload. So there's our cells and tissues are bathed in too much energy and essentially the way that happens is we eat too much. Our fat tissue can absorb the excess for a certain amount of time but, depending on your own genetic makeup, eventually your fat tissue runs out of room and it's no longer that's the professional energy storage site in your body right, the primary one and once that runs out of room, that energy spills over onto your other tissues that are not equipped to handle it and that's when you start getting things like insulin resistance, beta cell failure, all the other problems that arise as a result of energy excess and insulin dysregulation. So how do you get there? How do you get to an energy overload state.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 13:44

I just said one thing which I think is the most important thing, which is overconsumption of energy. But the other one is your muscles are not enough of an energy sink. So your muscles are the biggest energy sink in your body, right? So if you're doing physical activity, that's a huge amount of energy need that you're generating, that is pulling energy out of the circulation and reducing exposure to your other tissues, and so to a large extent, physical activity can mitigate that energy excess and even in the face of higher body fat, if you're highly physically active, you can mitigate that excess energy exposure. And in the face of excess energy intake you can mitigate that energy exposure. So it's kind of a way being physically active is a way of kind of cutting down on, or it's a way of like balancing that seesaw, right, balancing that energy exposure seesaw. And so to me really the not over consuming calories and the physical activity really go hand in hand and preventing modern non-communicable disease like diabetes, cardiovascular disease and all the things related to that.

Philip Pape: 15:02

The way you explain that with the spillover. It's probably the listeners haven't heard to explain that way. We talk about muscle as a sink for glucose and energy, but the visual you just gave us is like you know, you're over consuming, you're just going to increase your body fat. Worse than that, you're going to go past your capacity of your fat cells and start causing damage in other areas. But if you have more muscle mass or you have more activity, it mitigates that. I mean that is a nice visual.

Philip Pape: 15:29

I could see that on a nice PowerPoint slide really getting the message across as to why all of those things are important, despite the fact that there's some energy compensation and all these little things that happen when you move more. There's another phrase I've used Stevan energy flux, and I know certain circles use that to talk about moving more and eating more. But you're kind of doing them hand in hand, not to over-consume, but really to give yourself all the energy and nutrients and macros you need, plus mitigating it at the same time. So it's really a nice kind of way to get there. Let's go back to the brain pathways, because that's really your expertise, right?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 16:05

I just wanted to say that I think the physical activity is probably more important than the higher muscle mass per se, because if you have just genetically high muscle mass and you're not using it, that might protect you to some degree, but that muscle is not acting as a very powerful energy sink if you're not using it, because muscle actually has a pretty low resting metabolic rate.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 16:30

It's only when you're using it that it has a high metabolic rate, and you know. Another point I'll make along these lines is that people with obesity on average, have higher muscle mass than people who are lean. Yet that muscle mass is not, that excess muscle mass is not protecting them. So I mean, you know they're not necessarily like bodybuilders or anything, but they have more muscle mass. So I think what's most important is actually using your muscles rather than having high muscle mass, although you know, in terms of metabolic health, obviously there are benefits to having higher muscle mass in terms of being stronger and, you know, more physically capable, but just in terms of the metabolic benefits, I think it's more about using it than having it.

Philip Pape: 17:15

Yeah, fair point Using it, building it and also mitigating the loss of it as we age, which inevitably happens. So, yeah, great point, fully on board with you there. So, talking about the brain and the brain-related genes and pathways, we can get a little technical, but we don't want to have to go all the way. How are they associated with weight gain and body fatness? What are the ones we really care about? That's written into our genes.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 17:36

When we talk about our genes being to blame to some extent, so you're asking me to get into the kind of brain functions that are related to body fatness?

Philip Pape: 17:48

Yes, thank you for helping me clarify the way I ask questions. That's science communication 101. So thank you, Stephan.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 17:54

Yeah, so I mean this is essentially the thesis of my book, the Hungry Brain that we have these non-conscious brain circuits that evolved in an environment that's very different than the one that we're in today. They evolved to regulate things like appetite, things like cravings, which directs us towards certain types of nutrients or foods, and other things like satiety at a meal, how full we eat, based on how much food we eat, and then some other related functions and those brain regions just kind of operate. They're designed to operate kind of in the background. So you know, you don't have to think, oh, today at noon I want to start feeling hungry. You know that's not something you have to worry about consciously. It's this automated process in your brain that does all this processing measures, your body's energy status measures, takes cues from what's around in your environment and generates an appropriate response, in this case hunger. At least it would have been appropriate if we were living in the environment that it evolved for right, the environment that it calibrated for, because these more basic non-conscious brain functions they're to a large extent they're hardwired, so not to say they're completely hardwired, so they can learn, they are flexible, but to a larger extent than our higher brain functions. They have a lot of hardwiring and that means that no matter whether you're born on a spaceship headed for Alpha Centauri or in the time of our distant ancestors, they're going to be functioning approximately the same way. And that's tough because our food environment has changed a lot, right, and so we have these non-conscious brain regions that are calibrated for an ancestral environment when food was a lot less appealing and a lot harder to come by. And I don't think most people quite grasp the degree to which our ancestors' diet was not very appealing compared to what we eat today.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 20:03

So if you really look at what hunter-gatherers are eating, so what our distant ancestors would have eaten even before agriculture, 10, know 10,000 years ago Most of the time they're not doing much except cooking Like they're not putting salt on it, they're not putting flavors on it, they're just taking a piece of meat or a fish, putting it in the fire or next to the fire until it's mostly cooked, maybe part of it's burned, maybe there's some sand on it, maybe part of it's burned, maybe there's some sand on it. Eating it just like that, eating raw, fresh fruit, digging up tubers, roasting them and eating them plain. So you can imagine eating plain sweet potatoes, plain potatoes, except often a lot more fibrous than that right and maybe with some bitter flavors. Climbing up trees, getting honey, eating roasted nuts, roasted unsalted nuts. So not necessarily all foods that are unappealing, not necessarily terrible, but very simple, very, very simple foods that have not been cooked to the standards of a modern kitchen and don't have the flavorings and accoutrements of modern kitchen. That's kind of what our brains are calibrated for. They're calibrated to generate a motivational response to get food that is strong enough that you're going to do it, even though the food you're going after is not very appealing and even though it takes a lot of work to get there. So that's kind of what our brain regions are calibrated for, and so I think there are a few regions that I'll talk about that are particularly important in this context.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 21:37

One of them is the hypothalamus, which is the primary brain region that regulates body fatness. So the hypothalamus parts of the hypothalamus specialize in what's called homeostatic regulation. So that means they're taking some variable in the body and trying to hold it constant, or either constant or trying to regulate it in an adaptive way. So one of the things they regulate, for example, is body temperature. So there's a part of your hypothalamus that's essentially a thermostat for your body. There's another part of your hypothalamus that regulates your body fat and you can kind of compare it to a thermostat. It doesn't work exactly like a thermostat, but it measures the level of body fat in your body using the hormone leptin, and it tries to keep it relatively constant. And particularly when that leptin starts to drop, when you're losing fat, when your calorie intake is going down, your leptin drops.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 22:33

Your brain detects that and initiates an orchestrated behavioral and physiological response to regain the lost fat. And that is probably the main reason why it's so hard for people to lose fat and keep it off is because you're fighting against that physiological response. And the main arm of that response, the main lever the brain is using, is appetite. So when your body fat starts to drop, your brain will increase your appetite. It will also lower your metabolic rate to some degree, but primarily it will increase your appetite until that fat comes back. And it'll do that by increasing your hunger, by increasing your attention toward food, by increasing your cravings toward certain types of calorie-dense foods. So that's one system. You can call that the lipostat.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 23:26

And then there's another system in your brainstem that's also regulating your body's energy status, but it's instead of doing it on a long-term basis by regulating your body fat, it's doing it on a meal-to-meal basis by regulating your meal size.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 23:42

That's in the brainstem, primarily in the NTS, nucleus tractus solitarius, and that's collecting information from your digestive tract, proletariat, and that's collecting information from your digestive tract. So information from your mouth, from your stomach, from your small intestine, is converging in your NTS and that's kind of as you're eating your meal, that information is building up, building up, building up, until finally it says, okay, you've had enough. And you know. A lot of people imagine that you know I eat until my stomach's full and that's when I know to stop. But really your stomach has a lot bigger capacity than you're usually tapping into at any particular meal. I mean, I'm sure, philip, you can think back to a meal where you were super hungry, maybe you did like lots of physical activity or couldn't eat for a while, and all of a sudden it felt like your stomach was just bottomless right.

Philip Pape: 24:36

Oh yeah.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 24:37

Yeah, but that wouldn't happen at a normal meal, like you wouldn't. You would feel like your stomach's full before that at a normal meal, right, yeah? And so that goes to show you, I mean, human stomach capacity is not even close to maxed out at a typical meal. Our stomachs are big. What makes it feel like it's maxed out is this neurobiological processing that's happening in the brainstem. So when your brainstem decides that you've had enough at a meal, that's when it's like okay, I feel really stuffed. If I eat anymore, I'm going to start feeling nauseous. I have lost interest in food. It doesn't taste as good anymore. I don't want to. You know, I'm not staring at it anymore, I'm not feeling that motivational response and I just feel physically stuffed.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 25:27

That is regulated, all that is regulated by your brainstem, based on when your brainstem has decided that you've had enough.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 25:35

And so, interestingly, you know, on a practical level, I think that's one of the main things that we can target if we're trying to regulate our total energy intake, because the perception of fullness that you feel isn't actually very closely linked to the number of calories that you've eaten. So there's certain food properties that will cause you to feel more or less full per calorie that you've eaten. So, for example, the calorie density, how many calories per gram or per volume of food that you've eaten the more calorie dense it is, the less fullness per calorie that you will feel. And it's kind of counterintuitive to people because they think of eating rich foods and feeling very full. And you do feel full after eating rich foods, but you've also eaten a lot more calories to get there. And so I like to compare crackers versus oatmeal, for example. The macronutrient composition is very similar crackers versus oatmeal, but oatmeal has a lot of water and crackers don't. To get to the same level of fullness, you'd have to eat a lot more crackers than you would oatmeal.

Philip Pape: 26:45

It's like the sweet potato versus the Pop-Tart same macros, but I could eat 10 Pop-Tarts easy.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 26:51

Yeah, hi, my name is Lisa, but I could eat 10 pop-tarts easy.

Lisa: 26:53

Yeah, Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, Philip P. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 27:35

So thank you. And so the calorie density is part of that. There's also the palatability, so the better something tastes, the less filling it is per calorie. It's like your brain recognizes that that's a highly desirable food on some level and tries to take the brakes off a little bit so you can eat more of it. And then fiber increases satiety per calorie and protein increases satiety per calorie.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 28:06

So if you're eating foods that you know how this kind of breaks down at a high level is, I think it breaks down to common sense, which is that if you're talking about unrefined, simple foods more similar to what our distant ancestors would have eaten, like fresh meats, fish, eggs, fresh fruit, whole grains, vegetables, those are going to be the kinds of foods that have higher satiety per calorie. And if you're talking about kinds of foods that have higher satiety per calorie and if you're talking about highly processed foods that most of us would recognize as junk food or play food, like bakery items, especially like dessert items, like brownies, cookies, cakes, candy, pizza, fried foods, those are the foods that have the lower satiety per calorie. So I think when you add it up, it kind of adds up to to common sense, which a lot of people would recognize that some of those foods are more fattening and some are less, but they might not necessarily know that a big part of the reason is that some of those are generating a lot more satiety per calorie than others.

Philip Pape: 29:13

Yeah, there's a lot there. And I totally agree with the satiety thing, because my wife she's a great cook. She'll cook really delicious whole food meals. She'll give me this giant plate of, you know, two fillets of fish and a huge thing of cauliflower and a giant scoop of uh, quinoa and I'm stuffed and and I'm like and I logged my macros and it's like 400 calories. You know, you're like, wait a minute, I actually need more calories. There's not enough there.

Philip Pape: 29:38

You know, and it's, and it's so true, and it's one of the tricks, tricks of the trade right Is when you're in fat loss, to really load up on the veggies and you get a two for one or three or four for one. When you talk about, like you said, um, the satiety, the nutrient density and, uh, the, the brain relationship. And this is one of the first times, I guess, in this episode where we're, I guess, empowering people to know that it's not a lost cause that your genes are this way. It's just the awareness of it now can inform some behaviors and some choices. What else did you say?

Philip Pape: 30:08

And then breaking it down into both the homeostasis piece, the lipostat, that part is really interesting, especially when we're losing weight, because people think in terms of statically, as if maintenance and losing weight are the same thing and there are some very different mechanisms happening. I want to touch on that for a bit, because we talk about metabolic adaptation quite a bit. You said that there's a little bit of that going on. Is that driven by multiple factors besides the hypothalamus and the leptin? In other words, are there, are there two or three factors that cause your metabolism to decline during fat loss?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 30:44

Yes, there are. So you know, the simplest thing is simply that you have less tissue on your body, and if you have less tissue, your energy needs typically go down. So you know, if we're talking about the average person who is going on a diet and not starting a bodybuilding program, at the same time, their lean mass is going to go down as they diet, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, because as you gain fat, your lean mass goes up. So you're really just losing. This is the way I see it. You're just losing the excess that you had accumulated. I mean, better to do strength training than not to, but I don't think it's a concern to be losing that excess lean mass.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 31:28

And so, yeah, your metabolic rate is going to go down just from losing mass. Then, when you are below your set point, that is to say, the level of body fat that your hypothalamus is accustomed to, it's going to kick in that kind of starvation response which is going to reduce your metabolic rate, in addition to increasing your hunger. So that's another component. So that means that even for the lean mass that you have, your metabolic rate is going to be a little bit lower. And then the third thing is, if you're eating less food, metabolic rate's going to be a little bit lower. And then the third thing is if you're eating less food, you're going to have less thermal effect of eating. Yeah, and that's going to be a very small amount, but that's the third component.

Philip Pape: 32:15

Yeah, no, it's a good point. It all adds up and I mean I'm still surprised because I take it for granted. When someone says is it okay or does it make sense that my metabolism has dropped a hundred calories over the last month, I'm like yeah, it's totally normal. Don't freak out, you know, because there's a lot of misconceptions in the industry about that. You mentioned a spaceship to Alpha Centauri. I was just thinking. That came back to me and I'm like I don't know if I'd rather eat that food. I think I'd rather eat the food our ancestors ate.

Lisa: 32:41

But, anyway.

Philip Pape: 32:42

So when we talk about the theories about body fat and weight loss, it does seem it's common sense, even if there's some counterintuitive aspects to it. But when you describe the brain and the more, we learn about the brain and also the gut and just these major systems that are complex. But there are other theories that still float around, like the carbohydrate-insulin model, that's the big one. And you had a big debate with he who shall not be named, mr GT, on the Joe Rogan podcast. Just address that for folks so that they understand what we're talking about and why that may not be the right mechanism here causing obesity. And then I don't know if there are any others that still get a lot of attention.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 33:23

Yeah, I want to start off by defining what I'm arguing against here, because there are many different versions of the carb insulin model at this point, and so I think it's really important to define what we're talking about. So this is the version that states that the primary cause of obesity so not just a minority contributor primary cause of obesity is dietary carbohydrate, increasing insulin secretion and leading to the accumulation of body fat. And so this is an idea that Gary Taubes has championed and some others have picked up, and the most notable researcher in the scientific community that has been associated with this idea is David Ludwig, although I think my understanding is at this point he's not defending the more extreme version of the idea anymore. He's not defending the idea that this is the cause of common obesity. That's my understanding, but I also don't want to put words in his mouth because I'm not 100% sure. But yeah, but Gary Taubes is definitely like 100% died in the wool. This is the cause of obesity. You know, that's what his books have revolved around, and anybody who disagrees with diets you know.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 34:43

And they're not all low. You know, they're not all low-glycemic index carbohydrate diets. Some of them are high in high-glycemic carbs, like potatoes, other types of root vegetables, white rice, and people just aren't getting fat. They're not getting any fatter than people in cultures that eat higher fat diets. In fact, if you look at most historical trends leading up to obesity in countries around the world, what you're going to see is that in most of those cases, cultures were transitioning from lower fat, higher carbohydrate diets to more carb and fat balanced diets, and this is part of why I think it's really in that middle zone, where you have abundant fat and carbohydrate, that's really the most fattening zone, and you see this really clearly in rodent studies. It's very, very clear in rodent studies, john Speakman has done the best studies on this, most rigorous, largest studies. It's very, very clear in rodent studies, john Speakman has done the best studies on this, most rigorous, largest studies.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 36:06

Essentially, if you take mice on a low-fat diet and you start adding fat to it, they'll get fatter and fatter and fatter, fatter, fatter the more fat you add and then at a certain point, they'll start getting leaner. So once it gets so high fat that you're crowding out the carbs and it's turned into a low-carb diet where there's not a lot of carbs anymore, then they start getting leaner again and so there's this peak fatness level. It may not be exactly the same for humans and mice, but I think it's a similar concept, where you bring those together abundantly, both of those, the carbs and the fat, and that's what's going to generate the highest level of body fat. And you might say, well, we're not mice, I'll give you that. But mice have insulin right and they have fat cells, and those systems work in very similar ways to how they work in humans. They're very conserved. When mice eat carbs, it increases their insulin and so why does the carb-insulin hypothesis not apply to them? Why wouldn't it apply to them?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 37:11

But it's not just in mice. We have human intervention studies that show the same thing. You put people on a low-carb diet, low-carb, higher-fat diet they lose weight. You put people on a low-fat, high-carb diet, they lose weight. You put people on a low fat, high carb diet, they lose weight. It's in the middle where people gain weight, and just in terms of the macronutrients, which is not, of course, the only variable. So that's one thing. The other thing I would say I mean there's just so much evidence from just like basic common sense all the way to really advanced experimental evidence refuting this idea.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 37:43

The other thing I would point to and I kept hammering on this in my debate with Gary on the Joe Rogan show, because it's just such a key point is the genetic studies, the genome-wide association studies. So these are studies that look in an unbiased way across the entire genome to see what genes are associated with a particular trait, and so, in this case, higher body mass index, a measure of body fatness, and what you see is, when you look at the genetic locations that are associated with higher body fatness, you see that those are primarily related to brain activity, not to insulin, not to fat cells, which is what you would expect if the biology of obesity revolved around insulin and fat cells, like the carb-insulin model says it does. Now, when you do these studies, these genome-wide association studies on other traits, like you do it on intelligence, you get brain genes. You do it on schizophrenia, you get brain genes. Do it on diabetes, you get pancreas genes. You do it on height, you get bone and connective tissue genes. Like you do it on autoimmune disease, you get immune genes, like these studies are really really good at honing in on what the underlying biology of a condition is. So, in cases where we already know really clearly what the underlying biology is. These studies are really effectively identifying that. So we know that these kinds of studies work really well at identifying underlying biology. And in obesity, they're saying the underlying biology revolves around the brain, not insulin or fat cells.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 39:28

And furthermore, I want to say, like you know, we're having this replicability crisis in science where a lot of studies aren't replicating right Like and we're saying what's going on?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 39:39

Or, you know, is this information rigorous? Well, these types of studies genome-wide association studies are some of the most rigorous replicable studies in all of biomedical science. This is not just another type of study design. These are highly reliable studies and they've done these over and over again and the same thing keeps coming out over and over again. And, furthermore, these are unbiased, because researchers aren't going into it with the hypothesis and saying we think obesity is all about the brain, so we're looking for brain genes. That's not how this works. It picks up whatever genetics is associated with body fatness and then after that they see what is showing up more often than by random chance. So they're not looking for brain genes, they're not looking for insulin genes, they're just seeing what pops up, and what pops up is the brain. In my view, anyone who has a hypothesis about what causes obesity that is inconsistent with what these genome-wide association studies are finding needs to find a new hypothesis, because this is the most rigorous evidence we currently have.

Philip Pape: 40:57

Excellent, excellent, yeah, and I wanted to bring that up just so that people know you're one of the experts in this area especially contrasting the genetics and the brain research with some of these hypotheses. So folks want to go find you out in the whole low carb claim. When you ask somebody, hey, what did you cut out to cut out your carbs? It's often things like pizza and ice cream and donuts and you're like, well, that's actually highly balanced fats and carbs. So is it the palatability that led to that peak fatness? Because they're just eating more calories? Is it as simple as that?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 41:40

That's a really good question. I would say that that is my leading hypothesis for it. I'll say that I don't think we really know, but I think that's the most compelling possibility. It is true that the reward value of food in other words, what kind of eating drive it stimulates, kind of pleasure response it generates is higher when you're mixing fats and carbs than when you're keeping those separate. So this has been shown in a variety of different ways and I mean we understand it right.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 42:12

Like what are the foods that get people going the most? They're usually combinations of fat and carbohydrate. You know whether we're talking about pizza, ice cream, chocolate and depending on what kind of a, you know whether we're talking about pizza, ice cream, chocolate and depending on what kind of a. You know cultural period we're in, we'll call those things like back in the 90s pizza was a fatty food and today we call it a carby food. So but if you look at the actual macros it's got lots of both, but we just interpret that through the, you know, current cultural lens, whatever macronutrient we're demonizing at the time.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 42:46

But I do want to say that I think low-carb and low-fat diets, I think there is something restricting carbs per se and restricting fat per se. So I do think that macronutrient restriction itself is kind of a time-tested strategy that can help people control their calorie intake independent of other things. So even if you were like keeping your food pretty simple, keeping it low, low calorie density, I still think if you cut back on the carbs or you cut back on the fat, it would give even on top of that, it would give it probably a boost.

Philip Pape: 43:31

And I think you're right, because when we let's say, take it from the other direction. If you, let's say, you are tracking calories and macros which, like my clients might do and we talk about a lot on the show just as a way to learn about what you're eating and how much you're eating, if you follow the palatability and the nutrient density kind of guidelines we talked about, you're going to eat leaner meats, you're going to eat lower fat forms of, say, dairy, you're going to eat more fruits and vegetables Guess what it's going to look like Fairly lower fat and carbs, high protein, and now your calories are where they need to be without being miserable Like you're. You're cutting things to be on a diet. So, yeah, it all makes sense, stefan.

Philip Pape: 44:07

Okay, so I mean we talked a little bit about the environment, and I don't know if the environment and epigenetics can can be combined here, but assuming we have the environment we have, which is very different than our ancestors, who just didn't have a choice, really, they couldn't go to the grocery store, and we can't really change it, at least not at the individual level when does lifestyle come into this? Where does choice come into this, and is there a way to do it. That feels more frictionless, especially for people who are predispositioned to just be at a higher body fat.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 44:37

Yeah, I think the frictionlessness aspect is really the key to zero in on right, Because anyone is physically capable of eating less and losing fat. If you had a gun to your head, you could do it, but the problem is, are you going to do it when you're fighting these non-conscious brain regions that are telling you to eat more day in and day out, and day in and day out? That's a struggle that most people are just not going to win on an ongoing basis, and so I think the question is how do you make it more frictionless, how do you make it easier to maintain those changes? And so I'll start off by saying that I think environment is really important. So, obviously, genetics is very important, but genetics is not what created the obesity epidemic, right, Because the obesity epidemic has been happening around the world and people of all different genetic backgrounds, so you can't really explain it by changes in genetics. What's changed is the environment. So the environment is obviously very powerful, and I think the most powerful part of it is our food environment Not necessarily the only part, but that's probably the biggest part.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 45:55

If you want to make an animal or a human fat, modifying what they're eating is the fastest and easiest way, and vice versa. If you want to get them to lose weight, modifying their food is also the most powerful lever. So I'm going to put a little brain spin on this, because that's what I do, and so I think a good way to make body composition control easier and more frictionless is to work with the non-conscious parts of your brain that regulate your body, fat and synaptic, rather than struggling against them. And so, you know, I think the typical weight loss scenario that might come to mind for someone is one in which they're pitted against these systems. So you're experiencing hunger and you're choosing not to eat. In the face of that, that might be, you know, an image that comes to mind for someone who's considering dieting In that way. You know, you can think about that. There's a brain region that is automatically and intuitively generating that hunger response. And then there's the you part of your brain that is the rational, conscious part, that is inhibiting that behavior that wants to happen. And that's an internal conflict, right, and that's a struggle. It doesn't feel good to be struggling against yourself like that, especially in the long run.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 47:20

You can do it for a day, you can do it for a few days. It's going to be hard to do it for a month, a year, 10 years, and for people who haven't experienced that, just consider, think about it like you're feeling thirsty. Let's say you're feeling thirsty all the time and you're not letting yourself drink. You could probably do that for a day. You could do it for a week. Could you do that for a year? I doubt it, and so I think what we want to do is we want to recruit those systems so they're not generating those responses that we have to struggle against, and I'll talk about two ways to do that.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 47:58

One of them we already talked about a little bit, which is working with the brainstem to create more satiety per calorie. So satiety is technically. Satiation is that feeling that you get that causes you to terminate a meal, that causes you to feel like you've had enough, you're satisfied and you push away from the table. You can reach that feeling with 700 calories. You could reach it with 1500 calories and get to the same place in terms of satisfaction, but having eaten more than twice as many calories. That's why selecting food for higher satiety, I think, is one of the most important things you can do to control your body composition. So, as I said before higher protein, lower calorie density, not going really high in palatability and tending toward higher fiber. Those are some important variables.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 48:56

The other thing I often focus on is controlling food cues in your personal food environment. So the reward regions of your brain that generate cravings, generate motivational response towards specific foods and to some extent generate hunger, those are taking cues from your surroundings. So cravings are activated when your brain gets a signal that a desired food is available in your environment. So you smell brownies in the oven or you walk by that bakery and you smell that baking bread, or you're hanging out with the friends that you always have a beer with or there's cookies on the counter and you see those cookies. That visual cue. Those are the things that get your dopamine spiking, that trigger the motivational response for you to engage. They energize, they behaviorally energize you to engage in that eating behavior.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 49:55

And so you know I'm going to use a little analogy here for cigarette smoking.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 50:02

It's a similar process, even though food is not a drug.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 50:05

It's a similar type of reward association. If you want to stop smoking, the main thing you need to do is stop exposing yourself to those cues that remind your brain to generate that motivational response to smoke. So you don't leave cigarettes on the counter, you don't go to the bar where you usually smoke, you don't go to the convenience store where you usually buy cigarettes, etc. You cut those cues totally out and then you're not going to have as much of that reward getting triggered in your brain, triggering that motivational response, dopamine spiking, and then that will make it easier and then over time you lose that association and you don't even want to smoke anymore, even if you see those cues. And so controlling your personal food environment in terms of not having foods readily visible that you can readily smell, putting in little effort barriers so that you might have to unscrew a jar or peel an orange or do something like just a small effort barrier those are little things you can do to kind of shut down those motivational responses that can arise.

Philip Pape: 51:18

Yeah, those are two really good strategies. And the whole controlling food cues thing reminds me of a question I got from a listener recently, which was what if my family isn't quite on board with my goals for food? And that's another kind of area of friction for you, because now you have to add in the social element of having conversations with people and seeing that other people are engaged with you for that support, even if they don't buy into what you're doing a hundred percent. So I just wanted to add that in there because it came to mind. So those are really good stuff and I know, in the interest of time, I do have one more question, if you can hang out for a couple of minutes, and that is have there been any studies on specifically on naturally lean people, like as an independent population? Uh, when we look at body fatness and body fat percentage, yeah, there have.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 52:07

Yeah, there have been genetic studies on lean people and what they've shown is that a lot of the genes are actually the same as the ones that have been identified in obesity, and they're just acting in the opposite direction. So, whatever the variant, the gene variant is that causes some people to be fatter well, the opposite variant causes them to be leaner in many cases.

Philip Pape: 52:38

Do you see genetic like CRISPR or some genetic manipulation down the road with some of these genes, or is that you know far off?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 52:45

I mean, it's not far off at all. I mean, technically it's already possible and in fact, the easiest way to do it wouldn't be by CRISPR, it would just be by selection, so you could create a bunch of embryos and then select the ones that have the best profile of whatever genetics you're looking for. And yeah, it's already technically possible and we do it already. Actually, we do it in a limited way in prenatal genetic diagnosis. So if you have parents who have propensity for some really bad genetic disease, they can create embryos from those parents and then they screen them and make sure that the one that gets implanted is one that doesn't carry that disease Through IVF.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 53:32

And so yeah, yeah, through IVF. So we're already doing it for genetic diseases. You could, in theory, do it for complex traits like the ones that have been studied, like BMI, and I think the only thing that's limiting us right now from doing that is potentially thorny ethics. I think a lot of people have ethical questions about that, about whether it's a good idea, and then also just kind of like financial and technical capacity. Like do we have, even though we have the knowledge and the technical capacity to do that? Do we have, you know, enough lab capacity to meet the demand that would be there for for parents actually wanting to do this.

Philip Pape: 54:15

Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting. I was just curious about that. All right, so I guess, within the scope of what we've discussed, is there anything you wish I had asked or touched upon?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 54:24

No, nothing I can think of off the top of my head.

Philip Pape: 54:27

I only have about 20 other questions I could have asked you. That's why I phrased it that way. Well, Stefan, it's a pleasure talking to you today. I do want people to be able to find you and your work at the best place you want to send them to. So where would that be?

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 54:44

Yeah, to send them to. So where would that be? Yeah, I'm most active on Twitter, sgna. I also have a website, stephangeanaorg. I don't update that much these days though.

Philip Pape: 54:49

No problem. Yeah, I mean your picture still looks the same, so it's all good. You kept in shape all these years, all right? Well, thank you so much, stephan, for being here. It was a lot of fun, and I know the listeners are going to take away a lot from this today, so appreciate it.

Dr. Stephan Guyenet: 55:01

Great my pleasure Phillip.

The Proven Formula for an Amazing Physique Transformation (Iterative Design) | Ep 213

Ask yourself a very honest question: is what I'm doing working?

Is my training, my nutrition, all the things actually giving me the physique that I want, whether that's being lean and muscular or big and strong?

If you're like most people, you start with initial excitement and motivation, followed by hitting one roadblock after another, not quite getting what you want, eventually giving up and then hopping to the next thing.

Learn about the engineering concept of iterative design and how it can help you constantly improve and overcome the plateaus and roadblocks common to physique development.

Learn how to apply this systematic, data-driven method to your fitness journey over a two-year period to:

• Set realistic, measurable goals for your physique

• Create and refine your training and nutrition plans

• Use data to make informed decisions about your progress

• Overcome plateaus and setbacks

We walk through a real-world example of how to apply iterative design to lose fat and gain muscle.

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes. 

Main Takeaways:

• Iterative design is a powerful tool for long-term physique transformation that transforms setbacks into valuable data points for continuous improvement

• The six phases: design, implement, test, evaluate, refine, and repeat

• This approach leads to sustainable results by adapting to your body's changing needs

Episode summary:

Are you ready to revolutionize your fitness journey and achieve your dream physique? In the latest episode of Wits & Weights, we delve into the powerful concept of iterative design and how it can be applied to your training and nutrition strategies. Imagine treating your body like an engineering project, meticulously designed for optimal results. This approach can help you overcome common roadblocks and achieve consistent, measurable progress.

Iterative design is a principle-based methodology that involves six phases: design, execute, gather data, test, improve, and repeat. By following these phases, you can create a clear, adaptable framework to achieve your fitness goals, whether it be fat loss, muscle building, or body recomposition. The process is systematic and data-driven, allowing you to continuously evaluate and adjust your strategies based on your body's responses.

The episode begins by addressing a critical question: is your current approach to training and nutrition working for you? Many people start their fitness journey with initial excitement and motivation, only to face roadblocks that lead to frustration and eventually giving up. By applying a data-driven, systematic approach borrowed from engineering, you can avoid these pitfalls. The host, Philip Pape, introduces the six phases of iterative design and provides a detailed example using a hypothetical person, John Doe, who aims to lose 20 pounds over two years.

Phase one is the design phase, where you set a goal and create a plan. It's essential to understand that the plan will change as you go along, but you need to start somewhere and give yourself direction. For John, the initial plan involves a six-month iteration focused on fat loss. He tracks his food, steps, biofeedback, and measurements, and focuses on progressive overload in the gym.

Phase two is the implementation phase, where you execute the plan. John tracks his food intake, steps, biofeedback, and measurements daily. He focuses on progressive overload in the gym and ensures he gets enough sleep. It's important to note that John isn't trying to hit his targets perfectly; he's aiming to be in the ballpark and adjust as needed.

Phase three involves testing. By tracking various data points, John can measure the outcomes of his efforts. This includes body measurements, progress photos, strength progression, food intake, energy levels, mood, appetite, and more. This data allows him to evaluate whether his actions are producing the desired results.

Phase four is the evaluation phase, where you analyze the data collected. It's crucial to evaluate the data continuously, rather than waiting until the end of a set period. For example, John might look at his scale weight trend over three weeks to determine if he's losing weight at the desired rate. If not, he can adjust his calorie deficit or make other changes based on the data.

Phase five involves refining the plan based on the data. This might include adjusting calorie intake, modifying workout routines, or addressing other factors like sleep or hydration. The goal is to make incremental adjustments to optimize the plan continuously.

The final phase is to repeat the process. Iterative design is about continuous improvement, so you repeat the cycle of design, implementation, testing, evaluation, and refinement. Over time, this approach leads to sustainable results and a deep understanding of your body's responses to different strategies.

Throughout the episode, the importance of becoming the scientist of your own physique is emphasized. By understanding how your body responds to different strategies, you develop the skills to adapt and overcome obstacles. This mindset transforms how you view progress and setbacks, seeing them not as failures but as opportunities for improvement.

The episode also offers a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment call to help kickstart your journey with personalized steps and resources. This call is an excellent opportunity to map out your design, tailor it to your needs, and get the support you need to start implementing the iterative design process.

In summary, the iterative design approach to fitness is a powerful tool for long-term transformation. By following the six phases of design, implement, test, evaluate, refine, and repeat, you can create a clear, adaptable framework to achieve your fitness goals. This data-driven, systematic approach allows for continuous optimization, helping you overcome roadblocks and stay motivated on your fitness journey. Tune in to Wits and Weights and start engineering your dream physique today!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

I want you to ask yourself a very honest question Is what I'm doing working? Is my training, my nutrition, all the things actually giving me the physique that I want, whether that's lean and muscular or big and strong, whatever it is? Because, if you're like most people, you have this typical trajectory. It starts with initial excitement and motivation, followed by hitting one roadblock after another, not quite getting what you want, eventually giving up and then hopping to the next thing. So today we wanna talk about a method that engineers use to create products that can be applied to your body transformation. To avoid these roadblocks along the way and get through them. The idea is to take a data-driven, systemic approach that evolves with you, so that you know exactly what to do and you have the clarity and confidence to get whatever result you're going for.

Philip Pape: 0:59

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are talking about the bread and butter of engineering design. It's called iterative design and it can apply directly to your physique transformation. It is why I came up with the term physique engineering and exactly what most people are missing in terms of the process that they use. A lot of people just jump into a diet or jump into a training program. They follow a template, they try to execute something that is not necessarily right for them and, whether it is or isn't, they then fail to gather the data about whether it's working. They get frustrated because of a lack of results or because the results are taking too long to achieve, they give up and then they go to the next thing. That will result in the exact same failed outcome. And today I wanna give you this more results-driven, practical method that will prevent the stagnation, prevent you from spinning those wheels like you have been, and instead give you consistency, measurable progress, and we're going to take this over a two-year period. We're going to assume you're just starting with this.

Philip Pape: 2:12

I'm going to give you an example and I'm going to walk you through the six phases of what we call iterative design, and it's a very simple concept. It's just the idea that to create a complex system or complex product, like engineers do, we have to have a plan, we have to execute, we have to gather data and we have to test it, and then we repeat. But I'm going to break it down for you again with an example so that we can understand how you can apply it. You can apply it Now before I do just understand that there are a million different ways to apply this. That is the point.

Philip Pape: 2:48

This is a principle-based method, not a specific template or program, because everyone is different. Everyone has different hormones, you're at a different age, you have different training response, there are different foods that you like, you have a different schedule. I can go on and on about the ways that we are unique, even though we're human and biology still applies. So the principles will still work. And so if you want to take this data and apply it directly to you, the easiest, fastest way to do that is to schedule a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment with me, totally free call. It is not a sales pitch. We're just going to jump on a call and say, hey, what is the thing that's stopping you from results right now and what are three steps you can take immediately to start getting results over the next 90 days?

Philip Pape: 3:33

So let's talk about the framework today iterative design. Iterative as in to iterate, to repeat over and over until you achieve close to perfection, or at least you continue to optimize. It's just a methodology for designing, testing, evaluating and refining a system through multiple iterations, and the core idea is that you start with some idea of where you want to go. You then do it, you then see with whether what you did produce the outcome you wanted, and then you improve and you repeat and it sounds simple, right? It's like, oh okay, that's all I have to do, but let's break it down and we'll see why most people don't necessarily do this. And what is the slight difference? We're not slight, a profound difference we're talking about today. So let's just create a person John Doe, right?

Philip Pape: 4:21

The classic, anonymous individual who is 200 pounds and, yes, this is a male. But again, this is just an example. It can apply to any level of scale, weight, any level of body fat, any goal whatsoever, but we're focused on body composition on this podcast. So assume he's 200 pounds, 25% body fat, so a bit overweight, a little bit of weight to lose, probably not as strong, yet probably wants to lean out a bit, and his goal is to reach 180 pounds, right? So he wants to lose 20 pounds of fat to get to something around 12% body fat over two years. Here's how we're going to apply iterative design. Okay, the six phases. Phase one is the design. This is where you set a goal, you create a plan. Just know that it's going to change as you go along. But you've got to start somewhere and give yourself direction. So for John, he sets up a six-month iteration at the beginning where he is going to lose fat, and so within that six months he figures okay to lose fat.

Philip Pape: 5:23

I first need to figure out what my maintenance calories are, so I'm going to track my food and then at some point I'm going to go in a calorie deficit. Not sure exactly how much yet. Maybe it's 500 calories. So I can lose a pound a week. But we'll see. It depends on how I'm feeling, it depends on where my starting point is right, depends, depends, depends once we get there. But we come out with a rough plan a calorie deficit, a certain duration, let's say 16 weeks. For that first one, we're going to go for a 16 pound drop and I'm going to keep training with my current four day upper lower split right, very simple. But there are a lot of details under that we're not going to go to on this podcast. The point is you have a plan, a direction, a single goal, and you're not going to deviate from that. You're going to make that work, but you are going to adjust as you go along so that you can adhere to it.

Philip Pape: 6:13

Phase two implement. So don't spend too long in phase one designing the plan. It's literally on a piece of paper, scratching it out in a half hour, right, and if you've done this many times before, it might take five minutes. If you've never done it before, this is where please reach out to me so I can help you put this together, cause this is the piece that people often get stuck with is phase one, the design. So phase two is implement. You execute the plan.

Philip Pape: 6:37

John goes ahead and he does the thing. He tracks his food, he tracks his steps, he tracks his biofeedback and his measurements, and he's focused on progressive overload in the gym. He's tracking his food meticulously. I say meticulously but I mean he's doing it daily. He's not trying to hit the targets perfectly. He's trying to be in the ballpark, trying to get enough sleep, and he's just doing the things. He's not sure whether the things are going to get him the result he wants, yet he's not even sure whether he's in the right deficit, yet right. He's just doing what he thinks he needs to do.

Philip Pape: 7:08

Then that brings us to phase three, which is testing. Because you're tracking all the things, because you're tracking enough data body measurements, progress photos, strength progression, food energy levels, mood, appetite, all your biofeedback, anything. You need to measure the outcome. Because he's doing that, oh, scale weight as well, right, because he's doing that, he is going to be able to look back after two months, four months, six months and know whether the choices that he made and the behaviors that he took produced the outcomes he wanted. Even if he's not perfect, even if he doesn't adhere all the time, he knows that that level of adherence, that level of imperfection, that level of consistency or lack thereof, is what led to the outcome. And that is just data. It is not failure, it is not anything other than information.

Philip Pape: 7:58

Step four is the evaluation phase. Well, now you get to analyze the data. Now, of course, you could wait till six months later and say, oh, did I lose the 16 pounds of fat? Or? What I would recommend is, as you go along every day, every week, every month, depends on the data you're talking about. You continue to look at it. You just look at the data and say where is this trending Right, from a scale weight perspective, for example, a good time period is roughly three weeks and if you're using an app like macro factor, that is the timeframe that it uses to say Hmm, are you actually trending downward or not?

Philip Pape: 8:30

And if you're not, do we need to adjust your calorie deficit? And along the way, you would say okay, I am, I'm losing weight at the clip that I want. I'm getting enough of my fiber, but I'm feeling fatigued. What is going on? Maybe I'm not getting enough sleep, maybe I'm missing some other nutrient in my diet. Maybe I'm not hydrated enough. Maybe I'm working out too frequently?

Philip Pape: 8:53

Right, you're able to take all the data and correlate it and identify the thing that potentially is causing friction or roadblocks along the way. Right, and usually the more data you have, the easier it is to identify. When I work with clients and they check in, they are providing me a ton of data. Now, a lot of that data is automatically collected with wearables and stuff like that, uh, but some of it is manually entered, like their food log, and if, for example, they hit a plateau if you hit a weight loss plateau I can pretty quickly see what the issue might be.

Philip Pape: 9:27

It might just be something as simple as well. You're not in the deficit we wanted to be in and therefore you're not losing as quickly. But it could be something else. It could be a reduction in activity, it could be higher stress. There's so many little things. But once you have all the data, you can correlate it.

Philip Pape: 9:40

And again, here's where, the more you do this, the more you learn about yourself. And also this is where you could always reach out to someone like me or join our Facebook group and ask a question along the way. Here's my data, here are my screenshots, here's my context. I am stuck. Help me out. And guess what? Because you have all that data, people are going to be able to jump in and say, oh, I see this, this and this, and they can start asking you questions How's your, you know, how's your sleep, how's your training, how's your this, how's your that? Right, and they can then figure out with you together, like a, like a detective, what could be causing the inability to get the result you want, if it is not already obvious from the data. So that's step four is evaluating the data.

Philip Pape: 10:25

Step five is now. You just refine, right the plan. You refine the plan based on the data, and so what that looks like is after four weeks. If you hit a weight loss plateau, you might simply drop calories. It might be as simple as that. Or if your fatigue is climbing, maybe you have an extra recovery day. So you make refinements as you go. You don't just throw the whole thing out the baby with the bathwater, as they say and hop to a completely different program or a completely different plan, because you have the information and the clarity and the data. Wtf, what is going on? You know, okay, there's this one thing over here that could be the issue. I'm going to focus on that. I'm going to tweak that. I'm going to collect data. I'm going to go through this again. Okay, that's fine. Now I'm going to go to this thing over here and repeat. And so that's. The last phase is to repeat, to repeat everything you're doing in iterations and think of them as like micro iterations, macro iterations, long-term iterations, it doesn't matter. Basically, all the things you're doing on a daily, weekly, monthly basis are iterating. Now, over the big term, over the long term.

Philip Pape: 11:32

This two-year period for John, who wants to go from 200 to 180, his first six months might be a fat loss phase to lose 16 pounds, which gets him close to his goal weight, but not necessarily his body fat goal, because you can't just lose weight and you're done so. Then he says, okay, the next nine months now I'm going to plan a muscle building phase. Right Now he's going to pack on some weight back to his body, but a lot of it is going to be lean tissue, lean muscle mass. And then he's like okay, now I'm 15 months in, I've got five months left in my two year plan. The last five months I've given me one more, say mini cut, and then going back to maintenance, and now I've hit my 20 pounds loss and I'm at my body fat goal.

Philip Pape: 12:11

Now, whether going from 25 to 12 is reasonable or not, this was just an example and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, because these are just numbers to drive behaviors. The goal isn't necessarily hit the exact number all the time. It's to make significant progress toward it, and that is kind of the way to think about. This is personal growth, self-improvement, always iterating, growing, learning and becoming becoming that athlete that you were always meant to be, and that's it. That's how I work with clients. All the time it's we, you know, um.

Philip Pape: 12:42

One of my clients asked recently so what exactly do I get for the investment? And I said you know, what you get for the investment is not just a result. Yes, you will get a result, which a lot of people are just struggling to get. The result at all Like if you're struggling to lose that last 10 pounds of fat and you work with me, we will lose the 10 pounds of fat. So if that's what you're looking for and that's enough, that 10 pounds of fat so if that's what you're looking for and that's enough, that's worth the investment. But beyond that, at least for me and my coaching practices, you will learn so much education, both uh, both in the sphere of nutrition and training, but more importantly, about you, about yourself and how to do this. So you can fire me and do it yourself forever. And I had lots of clients that went on to become nutrition coaches because they're like Holy crap, I just learned so much that I never knew before and that you know. Basically, you would learn through a nutrition certification program or even a college level program, and now I can take that forward, not just for myself but to help others, and I love to see when that happens. So my point with all of this is the goal isn't to hit a number, the goal isn't to lose weight. The goal is to learn about yourself and have a process for getting to any goal whenever you want.

Philip Pape: 13:54

So iterative design is a methodology that's powerful. It's simple, but it's powerful. It's not necessarily easy to implement. It takes effort, right, it takes effort, you have to be committed to it, um, but it allows for continual optimization and you'll never get to optimal. Optimal is like some perfect, um, impossible point out there in infinity. But you'll always get toward optimization for you, for your goal, instead of stubbornly sticking to one approach. You consistently evaluate your progress, you make data-driven adjustments and then you turn potential plateaus into opportunities for improvement. And that is the essence of sustained progress, sustainability over the long term. And it makes this whole thing lots of fun, at least in my opinion. And if you take anything away from this episode is the power of this approach lies in its adaptability, in how it evolves with you Over the two years of John's plan.

Philip Pape: 14:52

He didn't just blindly follow the plan from day one. He continuously assessed, adjusted, improved his approach, and then everything that other people think of as a failure is actually just a data point, so it doesn't just transform your body, does it. It reshapes your relationship with the ideas of fitness and nutrition and training Things that you relish, that you look forward to, that are part of your life, that are ingrained. You become a scientist of your own physique. You gain a deep understanding of how your body responds to different strategies. And then you develop skills skills to adapt and overcome any obstacle in your journey. So let's just recap, just in case I overwhelmed you a bit with all the phases here.

Philip Pape: 15:37

Number one iterative design is a principle based, powerful tool for long-term physique transformation long-term transformation of anything, but in this case we're talking about your physique. Number two we. There are six phases that provide a framework for continuous improvement in your training and nutrition over months, over years, over the rest of your life, and they are design, implement, test, evaluate, refine and repeat. Number three this approach leads to sustainable results because you adapt to your body's changing needs, whatever it needs at any moment in time. And then, finally, this mindset transforms how you view progress and setbacks not as failures but as opportunities.

Philip Pape: 16:24

If anything is worthy of careful engineering, of careful attention, it is your body. It's a complex system. Approach it with the same patience and persistence that you would if you were to get involved in a very intricate project, maybe something you've done for work in the past, or a hobby or something that you are meticulous craftsman at, or a craftswoman right? Maybe you are a woodworker, maybe you build things. Think about the amount of discipline and patience not discipline, but the patience and persistence. It actually becomes something that is what you do and you get better and better at it, right? You systematically engineer your way to something very impressive and it doesn't take that long when you do it that way.

Philip Pape: 17:07

So, again, if you're ready to apply this iterative design process to your own fitness journey, I'm offering free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment calls. During this call, we map out your design and we tailor it to you and we give you some steps to take to start implementing. So, those first few phases of this process, I will give you the kick in the butt you need and get you going. No sales pitch, none of that, it's just. Here's the information, here are some resources. Usually I send you a helpful video or guide or resource out of the call by email and then you're good to go and you feel free to ask me questions and have at it and do it all on your own, or some people end up coming back and saying, hey, help me implement this specific to me so that I can get that result much more efficiently and, in many cases, much more quickly than just trying to randomly go at it.

Philip Pape: 17:53

Sometimes the difference between spinning your wheels and making progress is just having that strategy in place. And so let's connect, let's make sure you're on the right path for whatever your transformation is Maybe it's a fat loss phase, building muscle, body recomp, whatever it is. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember that your dream physique is not built overnight. It is engineered one iteration at a time. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. Talk to you next time.

The TRUTH About Strength and Muscle Loss During a Cut | Ep 212

Are you ready to get lean but worried about losing your hard-earned strength and muscle? Are you concerned that cutting calories might set back your progress in the gym? Do you want to know the real impact of a cut on your body and how to avoid the pitfalls?

Philip (@witsandweights) breaks down the science behind strength and muscle loss during a calorie deficit, revealing how to maintain your gains while shedding fat. He answers a listener's question on how strength loss during a cut might not always be due to muscle loss. He outlines strategies for preserving muscle and strength, from maintaining training intensity to optimizing protein intake, and explains why most strength loss is temporary. Whether you're a seasoned lifter or just starting your fat-loss journey, you'll walk away with actionable insights to cut effectively without sacrificing your long-term goals.

💬 Leave a 5-star rating (and if you’re feeling generous, a review) with Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or the app you're using right now!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:24 What happens to strength during a cut?
2:46 Key factors affecting muscle and strength during a calorie deficit
10:12 Importance of maintaining training intensity during a cut
11:23 Why you should eat sufficient amounts of protein
13:40 Why cutting too aggressively can lead to muscle loss
14:53 Reset your expectations
15:23 Prioritize recovery and listen to your body
16:13 Using auto-regulated training to manage strength loss
20:45 Recap

Episode resources:

• Your Very First Cut (Lose 10-30 Pounds of Fat)

• Bigger Isn't Always Better for Strength or Metabolism (Scaling Laws)

• Even an Earthquake Didn’t Stop This Wife and Mother from Training

Episode summary:

Is it possible to maintain your hard-earned strength and muscle while cutting fat? This question plagues many dedicated lifters as they embark on their fat loss journey. In our latest podcast episode, we dive deep into this challenging phase, unraveling the science behind cutting and providing practical advice to help you preserve your gains while shedding fat.

When you enter a calorie deficit, your body seeks energy sources, often leading to a dip in strength. However, this doesn't necessarily mean you're losing muscle. Understanding the mechanics of muscle preservation and strength maintenance is crucial. Factors such as decreased neural efficiency, altered body leverage, and depleted glycogen stores contribute to strength loss during a cut. By adjusting training techniques and nutrition strategies, you can mitigate these effects and sustain your performance in the gym.

Proper nutrition is vital during a cutting phase. Consuming sufficient protein helps maintain muscle mass, while continuous strength training ensures you hold onto your gains. Even during the toughest cuts, muscle loss can be minimal if approached correctly. We recommend a gradual and controlled approach to cutting, aiming for an optimal weight loss rate of 0.5% to 0.75% of body weight per week. This method helps reset expectations on strength performance and emphasizes the importance of recovery, especially for older lifters.

One of the key insights from the episode is the distinction between muscle loss and strength loss. Strength might drop due to factors unrelated to muscle loss, such as reduced neural efficiency or changes in body leverage. This means that while your lifts may stall or regress, your muscle mass remains largely intact. It's essential to focus on maintaining training intensity and consuming adequate protein to support muscle preservation.

To minimize strength loss during a cut, consider the following strategies:

1. Maintain training intensity by keeping the load on the bar high. Avoid the misconception that you need to switch to high reps and high volume during fat loss.

2. Ensure adequate protein intake, aiming for 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.

3. Avoid cutting too aggressively. Aim for a weight loss rate of 0.5% to 0.75% of body weight per week to minimize muscle loss and performance decline.

4. Reset your expectations regarding strength reductions when getting leaner. Focus on relative strength rather than absolute numbers.

5. Prioritize recovery by getting enough sleep, managing stress, and adjusting training frequency to avoid overtraining.

In the podcast, we also discuss the importance of community engagement and feedback. Staying motivated and connected with like-minded individuals can help you navigate the challenges of a cutting phase. Temporary setbacks are part of the journey, but with the right knowledge and strategies, you can maintain your gains while achieving your fat loss goals.

In summary, cutting fat without losing muscle is achievable with a strategic approach. By understanding the science behind cutting, maintaining proper nutrition, and adjusting your training techniques, you can confidently preserve your strength and muscle mass. Remember to take a gradual and controlled approach, prioritize recovery, and stay engaged with your fitness community. With these strategies, your long-term fitness journey will remain on track, ensuring you achieve your ultimate physique.

If you're ready to dive deeper into these topics and learn how to navigate your cutting phase effectively, tune in to our latest podcast episode. Discover the surprising truths behind strength and muscle loss during a cut, and equip yourself with the tools to maintain your gains while shedding fat. Join us on this journey to mastering muscle retention and achieving your fitness goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a dedicated lifter who's been hitting the gym hard, progressing your lifts and watching those numbers climb, and you're now gearing up for a cut to reveal all that hard-earned muscle, but you're worried about losing strength and size in the process, this episode is for you. Today, I'm going to break down the truth about strength and muscle loss during a cut. We'll explore what's really happening to your body when you enter a calorie deficit and why those numbers on the bar might be dropping, even if you're not losing much muscle. When you understand the science behind cutting, you can approach it with confidence, knowing how to preserve your gains while shedding fat. And the best part is that most of the strength loss you experience is temporary and easily regained once you return to maintenance calories. So if you've been hesitant to start a cut because you're afraid of losing your hard-earned progress, what I'm about to share will give you the knowledge you need to lean out effectively without sacrificing your long-term strength and muscle goals. Get ready to demystify the cutting process and learn how to get shredded while holding on to your gains. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:13

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are tackling a perennial question on the mind of every lifter who goes through a fat loss phase what really happens to your strength and muscle during a cut? Now, this topic comes straight from one of my longtime clients and listeners, heather C, who was also on the podcast. Back in episode 51, which I'll also link in the show notes, she wrote quote we all talk about the possibility of losing muscle when we're on a cut, but what about losing strength simply because you are losing mass? Do we have any information on what to expect for that? So, heather, this is a great question, because she is asking specifically about strength, which you will learn about today. But strength and muscle go hand in hand, so I've decided to address both, to give you the full picture and this is one of the most common concerns I've heard from clients and listeners, and today we are going to break it down and give you the real scoop on what's happening to your body during that cut.

Philip Pape: 2:10

Now, before we dive in, I've got a quick favor to ask If you've ever gotten any value from this podcast and you haven't already. Please take a moment to leave us a five-star rating in the app you're using right now to listen to my voice and, if you're feeling generous, a brief review about what you've learned or how the show has helped you. It just takes a few seconds, but it makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from this information. Plus, it lets me know what content you find most valuable so I can keep delivering the goods. So go ahead, pause this episode for a moment and leave that rating and review and I'll be here when you get back.

Philip Pape: 2:49

All right, let's get into it. So let's start by breaking down Heather's question into three key parts Number one, what happens to muscle during a cut. Number two, what happens to strength during a cut. And number three, how much of the strength loss is due to actual muscle loss versus other factors? So first up, let's talk about muscle loss, because usually this is what people are concerned about and we do want to understand that, to also understand the strength. They go hand in hand.

Philip Pape: 3:15

The reality is that when you are in a calorie deficit, your body is craving, it is looking for energy sources. It's like what are you doing to me? Go out and eat, go out and sleep whatever energy it can get and it wants to hold onto the muscle because the muscle is metabolically expensive and it takes a lot of energy to maintain. But if you're not careful, your body's going to start breaking down some of that muscle tissue as fuel. So in other words, it's very interesting because once you've put on the muscle, it's not going to be lost as easy as you think. Right, it's not like it just falls off. Now. If you don't train, it will definitely atrophy, but that can happen even when you're not in a diet. So I'm going to assume that if you're listening to this, you know the importance of continuing to train, even when you're a cut. And once you've put on that expensive tissue, your body you know it kind of is in a new set point where it has that muscle but it needs the energy to maintain it. So there's definitely a fine balance there.

Philip Pape: 4:13

When we're in a calorie deficit, the good news is that if your nutrition and training is more or less on point, with a lot of leeway, muscle loss during a cut is usually pretty minimal, even if you're going more aggressively on your cut than we've said is doable. According to the evidence, even when you go a little more aggressive than that, you're not going to really lose much muscle unless the aggressiveness is really high or the cut is really long or some other factors. So I would say generally, what I've seen with clients and what we've seen in the evidence is that at most okay, at most 10% of your muscle, maybe 5%. For most people it's 1% If you're going at a moderate fat loss phase of the loss is muscle. Now, that's of the amount being lost, not of your total muscle or of your body weight or anything like that.

Philip Pape: 5:07

People who do not strength train, when they lose weight, they're losing a quarter to a half as muscle and oftentimes that's in a form of a crash diet, in which case they're accelerating the muscle loss even further. I have seen typical people following a proper nutrition plan and training lose almost negligible amounts of muscle, and if they lose a little bit more than that, it's usually the total lean mass. That also includes fluid, and then when they gain the weight back, the muscle, that lean mass comes right back. So very little of its muscle, just to assure you. And if you are a newer lifter or if you have a lot more body fat to lose, you might even gain some muscle while you cut. All right, so that's all I'm going to say about muscle today, cause I actually did want to make it more about strength. But the conclusion, the long story short there is train, eat your protein right, don't go too extreme, and you're probably going to hold on to most of your muscle. Some of you may even gain a little bit. It is not that big of a worry. If you're doing it the right way and if you track your numbers, you can kind of see what's happening.

Philip Pape: 6:08

Okay, let's talk about strength, because this is really what I wanted to focus the episode on, and this is where things get interesting, because we don't talk about this a lot. You might notice your lifts start to stall or regress, you know, go down during a cut, even if you're not losing much muscle. So I often put it this way you start to lose strength before you lose muscle. From just a simplistic point of view, a very reductionist point of view, and there's a few factors at play for this. The first one is neural efficiency or neuromuscular adaptation. When you're in a calorie deficit, your body is just not as efficient at recruiting muscle fibers. You don't have the energy, and this can lead to a temporary reduction in strength, whether you call it real strength or perceived strength. You're just not as efficient even when you have the same amount of muscle mass. So just be aware of that. It's a temporary thing.

Philip Pape: 7:08

The second factor is that your leverages change. Your leverage on certain lifts can change, especially in the big lifts that many of us are doing now. You know the power lifting lifts, the big lifts, bench press, squat, deadlift, press Well, the press less. So you might find that your technique may not give you the optimal output it normally does. And I was going to say your technique needs to change, needs to adjust as your body composition changes. It depends on how much it's changing. I would say this is somewhat of a natural process. You should always be working on your technique to the day you die, basically, and if things start to feel a little different, you'll know it if you're very in tune with it and you're listening to your body as you do that squat.

Philip Pape: 7:50

The third factor here is the energy in general, like when you're eating less, you just have less fuel in the tank. You have less glycogen, you're eating fewer carbs, right, and this will impact your performance in the gym and it will especially impact it on the bigger lifts where strength is expressed and therefore you have technically less strength, less force production. And then, kind of related to this, the fourth factor is glycogen depletion, because when you're in a deficit, your body simply stores less glycogen overall in your muscle. Not only are you not able to restore it, you simply deplete a smaller amount, which also affects your strength and endurance during the workouts. Like you ever feel drained, right, you're during fat loss, you just feel a little more tired, a little more sluggish. Maybe you do get the lifts, but it's like you get wiped out more easily, which is part of the reason why we sometimes try to get creative during a fat loss phase and shift the calories a bit, shift the carbs a bit. You know, make sure that we are really fueled up for our workouts and not trying to train fasted, those kinds of things. So basically, to answer Heather's question directly yes, you can lose some strength simply by losing mass, even if you're not losing muscle. But most of this strength loss is temporary and then it can be regained quickly once you return to maintenance calories or a slight surplus.

Philip Pape: 9:10

Now, one last thing that actually addresses what she already acknowledged is that because you're losing mass, your absolute strength declines. Right, you have less mass, less force production, less cross-sectional area, all of that. But? But if your lifts merely stall out or even regress just a tiny bit, if you divide that load by your weight, you might find that your relative strength has maintained the same, has maintained or increased. Make sense, like so, your relative strength. If you want to know more about that, go listen to my podcast. It has the phrase scaling laws. It's one of the Wednesday podcasts I did not too long ago. I'm going to try to remember to include it in the show notes. It's about scaling laws and how relative strength is often more important than absolute strength and why that's important during fat loss.

Philip Pape: 10:00

Now let's talk about what you can expect and how to minimize the strength loss. Okay, because as much as we can say, well, it happens. Great, I'm doing all the things. So what? There are things we want to do. Okay. There's five things in particular I'm going to mention today. Number one training intensity. Maintain the training intensity. By intensity I mean the load on the bar. Keep lifting heavy.

Philip Pape: 10:25

A lot of people think during fat loss, you need to switch to high reps and high volume, right, and burn a bunch of calories. No, no, no. This is one of the almost shocking revelations I had when I started lifting. You know, with compound lifts and for strength, I realized, and I learned from the best out there, that you know you might want to reduce volume and sets and reps, but you want to keep the weight on the bar pretty high. You know it doesn't have to be one arms or, or definitely not PRS, but it is going to be a decent percentage of your max to maintain that strength. Now can you do a bodybuilding type program and maintain strength? Absolutely, okay, absolutely, you can. You can, as long as you're training hard and close to failure right, and you are progressing. You're still from your body's perspective, you're still recruiting significant amount of muscle mass and giving yourself the right signal. But I like to say keep lifting heavy, because a lot of people will go way to the extreme in the other direction.

Philip Pape: 11:23

Okay, number two protein, protein, protein, protein. Whether you're a new listener or you've listened to my last 300 episodes, it can never be said too often that you have to eat sufficient protein If you're going to be lifting weights, if you want to build muscle, if you want to maintain muscle and just really have a great life. So we've got to eat protein, and I'm going to give you the range again it is 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of protein, per pound of body weight, per pound of target body weight, but just simplify it as up to 1 gram. Now you might have heard a lot of recent research or podcasters talk about how, in reality, you know something as low as 0.6,. 0.7 is probably enough for most people, and that's that's true. I like the stretch goal of one because a lot of people struggle to get enough in general and it kind of pushes you well past that minimum plus protein keeps you full. There's a lot of side reasons to have more protein, but it's not that you have to. Okay, get at least around 0.7 grams per pound and you're good. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits and Weights.

Philip Pape: 12:24

I started Wits and Weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s, 40s and beyond who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they lift. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential, whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created Wits and Weights Physique University, a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized, done-for-you nutrition plan, custom-designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest, leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape: 14:14

Number three is you never want to cut too aggressively. If muscle loss is a concern, or at least do it for too long of a period, all right. The range we talk about is quarter to 1% of your body weight a week. The 1% is kind of the controversial one, because a bigger person with a higher metabolism has a lot of muscle. Who's lifted for years can probably handle 1.25% a week for a while, but after a while it will start to catch up with them. Somebody with a lower metabolism who maybe is an intermediate trainee not as much weight, not as much muscle. 1% is probably as much as they're going to push it before. It just tanks your performance, accelerates muscle loss. It's not sustainable, all of those things. So for most people when they're in a fat loss phase, I'm going to recommend a half to 0.75% of your body weight a week.

Philip Pape: 15:10

Very simple. Push it to one if you want. And if you're in a special case or you're working with a coach, like if you're working with me and it makes sense to go more aggressive, which I've done many times with clients where everything is in control, everything is precise and you know, accounted for and go for it right. If it works, all right. Number four the fourth thing you can do here is reset your expectations, and this is based on the stuff I talked about earlier today, as well as that scaling laws episode. It is totally normal to get some reduction in your lifts when you get leaner and during fat loss. So both reasons, like being in fat loss but also being leaner, don't panic, it's normal.

Philip Pape: 15:49

Focus on relative strength, right Strength in relation to your body weight instead of absolute numbers. And then the last thing here is recovery, recovery, recovery. When you're in a deficit, your recovery capacity is massively reduced and for those older folks like me we're in our 40s, 50s and beyond it's reduced even further. So you've got to get enough sleep, got to manage that stress. You've got to have the right frequency of your lifting sessions where you're not just overtraining or overreaching, not doing a ton of cardio where it doesn't make sense. Pay attention to recovery and listen to your body, all right. So the last thing I want to talk about here is something that might surprise you, and that is that if you do focus on maintaining absolute strength, like PRs during a cut, this can backfire. This can be very counterproductive in multiple, multiple ways, tied into many of the things we just talked about.

Philip Pape: 16:43

So let's take a hypothetical dude named Mark. All right, mark's a big guy, he's pretty strong, he's a lifetime lifter and he's in his fifties. Okay, actually quite common for my clientele. The other part of my clients are women in peri-postmenopause. So two very common populations I work with. And he's pretty strong, he can bench press, you know, three plates, 315. And he wants to stay there even during his. He psychs himself up, he loads the bar. He's really good at doing the thing, training hard, and so he grinds out these really ugly reps just to hit the number.

Philip Pape: 17:25

Now, if you can't tell that, I'm speaking from personal experience, I am as well. Okay, and it's gotten me in trouble and I've seen it with other lifters who send me videos. I'm like dude, this is not what we mean by a max. I mean it is a true max, but not what we want during fat loss. And so he's trying to get a new PR, even while losing weight and being in a deficit. And I'm talking like arm shaking, bar tilting, the whole thing. And the problem is Mark is probably losing muscle by doing this. Why is that? Because he's so focused on hitting a PR, he's neglecting his form and he's overreaching.

Philip Pape: 18:03

And when you overreach like that, not only are you putting a lot of stress on your tendons, your connective tissue, especially for an older person, but you're doing it in a state of poor recovery, low glycogen. This is going to smash your recovery. It's going to give you a high level of fatigue that is far beyond the trade-off we want for the recovery and the growth you get out of it, because you're actually not going to get growth. You don't have the recovery capacity. You also increase your injury risk, especially for shoulders on the bench, all right at that level, especially when you see all the shaking going on and that is going to stall your progress, because now you're going to regress, probably, or you might get injured I'm not going to say you're going to get injured, but you're going to feel it and you might then experience muscle loss because the totality of your progress during the phase is not there, like it would be if you had taken a just slightly more intelligent, moderate approach. That's still training hard and pushing, and so I would recommend, in this case, using an auto-regulated style of training program.

Philip Pape: 19:06

Okay, now I'm speaking to all of you who love pushing PRs. I'm not speaking to those who are already doing physique type programs, which lend themselves very well to a fat loss phase by default. I'm speaking for people who are more strength focused or power building and they're pushing for one rep maxes or pushing for PRs. With an auto-regulated program, you can push for your max relative to today and your capacity, but not to your all time right, because this relative strength is the important thing. Your absolute strength might be dropping, you're losing body mass. You're a different person with different amount of energy coming in and you want to recalibrate to how much you can lift in relation to your new, leaner body weight and lower energy capacity.

Philip Pape: 19:55

So if you can auto-regulate, if you can do a program that has rep ranges, for example, or a session-based RPE or 1RM, not an all-time-based or a cycle-based 1RM, just whatever you can hit today and you don't overreach, the 1RM is achievable and feels like, if you guys know RPE, it feels like an eight or nine RPE and not a nine and a half or 10 RPE. Then your absolute strength probably is not going to decrease not very much at all, and your relative strength might actually improve. And then when you go back to maintenance calories, you're going to quickly surpass those old numbers. I see it time and again this bounce back where, like you did a really good job being intelligent during fat loss, and then when you're done and you come back, like the numbers come back quickly and then they start to grow even further. It's pretty incredible. So the lesson here don't let your ego dictate your training during a cut or really ever focus on quality reps. Listen to your body, trust the process, the process. If you're not sure what the process is reach out to me, we can go over the process for you and if you do that, your muscles and your joints, us older folks come on. A lot of you are listening. I know they're going to thank you for it. They're going to thank you for it and you're going to maintain your strength and your muscle and your connective tissue, health and your sanity All right.

Philip Pape: 21:18

As we wrap up, let's recap the key points for you guys. Number one muscle loss during a cut is minimized with proper nutrition that's protein, and training that's training hard. Whatever your program is training hard, keep the intensity up. Number two strength loss during a cut is more often about the neuroefficiency, the change in your leverage, the low energy availability, than actual muscle loss. Number three most strength loss during a cut is temporary and you're going to regain it very quickly. Number four focus on keeping the intensity high, the bar, the weight on the bar high, prioritizing your protein that needs to be high during a fat loss phase and then managing recovery. And then, number five, don't obsess over numbers. Look at the relative strength you have, which, granted, can be reduced to a number still if you'd like to go that route, but think of it in terms of form and pushing and training hard and progressing rather than ego lifting.

Philip Pape: 22:15

All right, cutting is temporary. Remember, we're not supposed to be cutting for years and years and years. You cut for a few weeks, you know. You cut for maybe 8, 12, 16 weeks, maybe a little longer, the first time you do it and your goal is to preserve as much muscle and strength as possible. Why so that what you lose is fat and not muscle. That's it.

Philip Pape: 22:35

Let the other 95 plus percent of people out in the world who don't have a clue what they're doing or, more correctly, they might, but they're not willing to put in the work like you are, okay, or they haven't found this podcast, or they haven't, you know. Send them here, share the podcast so they understand the importance of body composition and not just scale weight. We're trying to just lose fat, right, and so when you're in a cut, you're not trying to set PRs. That's not the goal, right? That's what your building phases are for, okay. So I get passionate about this stuff, heather and everyone else out there who are worried about losing gains during a cut. You are good. You have a smart training and nutrition approach. Like we discussed on this show, you can absolutely get lean while holding onto your hard-earned muscle and strength. Focus on the things that do get better. For example, you might be able to do more pull-ups because you're lighter. Just think about it. And when you transition back to maintenance or even a building phase, then you'll be primed in a fantastic way to push those numbers even higher. All right, that's it for today.

Philip Pape: 23:33

If you found value in the episode, I do have one last request. Just stick around for a second. I really hope that you would take a moment to leave a rating and review for the show, even if it's just a rating. Your feedback does help others find the podcast, but I think, more importantly, for your benefit, it helps me create content that serves your needs. When I see a review hopefully a five-star review, although lower stars will still give me feedback, but I hope it's a five-star review and you're specific as to how it helped you, or even the things that you wish to hear more of.

Philip Pape: 24:04

I listen to that, I look at those and I come up with topics based around those. So, whether it's on Apple, spotify, wherever you're listening, take a few seconds to leave that five-star rating and maybe a quick comment about what you've learned today, and that would mean the world to me. It would help us continue to grow this community of smart, efficient lifters. All right. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember a temporary dip in those numbers does not always mean you're losing progress. It's all part of the process and the journey to your best physique. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Macros vs. Intuitive Eating with the Godfather of Flexible Dieting, Dr. Joe Klemczewski | Ep 211

Should you count every macro or just eat what feels right? Is there a way to enjoy your favorite foods without sabotaging your goals?

Philip (@witsandweights) teams up with Dr. Joe Klemczewski, the godfather of flexible dieting, to shatter diet myths and reveal the truth about what really works. Whether you're an experienced macro tracker or just beginning your nutrition journey, you'll discover how to balance structure and freedom in your diet to enjoy food while aligning with your physique goals. Tune in to get the clarity you need to personalize your nutrition strategy.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski, a pioneer in flexible dieting and founder of The Diet Doc, joins the show to discuss everything from macro tracking to intuitive eating. With a Ph.D. in nutrition and a background in bodybuilding, Joe shares his insights on how to approach nutrition in a way that suits your lifestyle and goals. Learn about the importance of structure in dieting, why freedom is the ultimate goal, and how to avoid common pitfalls that can derail your progress.

📲 Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15-minute call. 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:12 Evolution of flexible vs. rigid dieting research
10:51 Precision vs. perfection: Using data to improve, not stress
14:11 The journey to intuitive eating and reframing failure
20:10 Macro targets vs. ranges or minimums
26:39 Maintaining a healthy food relationship while tracking
35:17 Personalizing nonlinear dieting approaches
40:32 Strategies for hard gainers for maximizing muscle gain
43:27 The role of carbs in muscle building and performance
46:13 Macro trade-offs during low-calorie phases
53:06 Metabolic adaptation during weight loss
58:52 Where to find Joe
59:12 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: thedietdoc.com

• Instagram: @thedietdoclife

• Facebook: @thedietdoc 

• YouTube: @thedietdocweightloss 

Episode summary:

In this episode of Wits & Weights, host Philip Pape dives deep into the complexities of nutrition with Dr. Joe Klemczewski, the godfather of flexible dieting. The discussion navigates through the often conflicting advice surrounding macro tracking and intuitive eating, offering listeners a comprehensive guide to achieving nutritional balance and sustainability.

The episode begins by addressing the fundamental question: how do you find the right balance between structure and freedom in your diet? Dr. Joe Klimczewski shares his journey of developing a teaching approach that emphasizes freedom through education. This method is particularly useful in debunking the criticisms of macro tracking, which some argue is too rigid or a socially acceptable form of disordered eating. Instead, Dr. Joe argues that understanding the contents of your food can lead to better decision-making and long-term success.

One of the significant points discussed is the evolution of diet trends and how societal changes and advancements in digital communication have reshaped the way nutritional information is disseminated. In the early 90s, when Dr. Joe started his business, the internet and social media were not as pervasive as they are today. People relied on diet books and rigid plans available on bookshelves. This lack of accessible, flexible information often led to high recidivism rates in weight loss efforts. Dr. Joe's approach, which involves educating clients about the nutritional content of their food, aims to fill this gap by offering a more sustainable and personalized method.

The episode also explores the intricacies of coaching in nutrition and fitness. Dr. Joe emphasizes the importance of flexibility and personalization in coaching clients. Whether it's maintaining consistent daily calorie intake or allowing for more flexibility on weekends, the goal is to help clients develop sustainable habits. This approach not only helps in achieving short-term goals but also instills a mindset of learning from data rather than viewing missteps as failures.

The transition from rigid tracking to intuitive eating is another crucial topic. Dr. Joe explains that while some individuals thrive on structure, others may find freedom in a more intuitive approach. The key is to understand that everyone is on their own chronological journey, and their nutritional needs and preferences will evolve over time. This shift is particularly significant in today's fast-paced, information-rich environment, where people are bombarded with conflicting dietary advice.

The discussion then delves into the deeper aspects of nutrition coaching, from addressing psychological challenges to optimizing muscle gain and understanding metabolic adaptation. Dr. Joe explains that while metabolic adaptation is a natural response to weight loss, it doesn't mean that one's metabolism is "broken." Instead, a slower metabolic rate can be a marker of good health and longevity. He also touches on the minimal caloric impact of gaining muscle mass, emphasizing that the real benefits of muscle mass lie in maintaining a balanced physique rather than significantly boosting calorie burn.

Another critical point discussed is the importance of knowing when to seek expert advice versus handling things on your own. Dr. Joe shares personal anecdotes about DIY approaches to tasks like car repairs and house building, highlighting the efficiency and effectiveness of consulting a coach for specialized needs. This principle applies equally to nutrition coaching, where the guidance of an expert can make a significant difference in achieving one's health goals.

The episode also addresses the complexities of nutrition coaching relationships. Dr. Joe emphasizes the need for recognizing when issues extend beyond food to deeper psychological challenges. He highlights the importance of flexibility, structure, and the ability to refer clients to other professionals when necessary. Successful coaching often goes beyond just the mechanics of diet and exercise, incorporating a holistic approach that considers the client's overall well-being.

The role of clear scientific communication in today's social media-driven world is another crucial topic. Dr. Joe's ability to articulate complex concepts clearly and conversationally is praised, underscoring the value of effective science communication. This skill is particularly important in an era where misinformation can easily spread through digital platforms. By following Dr. Joe's expertise, listeners can gain valuable insights into achieving their nutrition freedom.

In conclusion, this episode offers a comprehensive guide to navigating the often confusing world of nutrition. From macro tracking to intuitive eating, Dr. Joe provides valuable insights into finding the right balance for sustainable success. Whether you're an experienced macro tracker or just starting your nutrition journey, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to achieve their health and fitness goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

you've heard it all before track your calories and macros and weigh your food no, no, no. Just listen to your body and eat intuitively. Be flexible, but don't cheat. Maintain a calorie deficit for fat loss no, just eat mostly whole foods and you'll meet your goals. With so much conflicting advice, how do you know which nutrition approach will actually work for you? Today we're cutting through the noise with the man known as the godfather of flexible dieting. Whether you're an experienced macro tracker or just starting your nutrition journey, today you'll discover how to find the sweet spot between structure and freedom in your diet, so you can both enjoy eating and align your nutrition with your physique goals and lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 0:49

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to bring some clarity to the often confusing world of flexible dieting with Dr Joe Klimczewski. Joe is an absolute pioneer in the field. He's known as the godfather of flexible dieting and a man whom I followed for a while, during both my personal transformation and as a nutrition coach and podcaster. Now Joe has a PhD and degrees in just about everything physical therapy, health, nutrition literary journalism. He's a retired WMBF professional drug-free bodybuilder. He's also the founder of the Diet Doc. There's also a podcast that he hosts with the same name, and he's coached hundreds of athletes to professional status and world championships. Today, you're going to learn about the full spectrum of nutrition approaches, everything from macro tracking to intuitive eating, the overwhelming evidence for a flexible approach to dieting, and how to personalize your strategy based on this info. Joe, it's an honor to have you on the show.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 1:46

I appreciate it, Philip. Very good introduction, Speaking of literary journalism. That was just completely well engineered as a script.

Philip Pape: 1:56

Love it and the use of the word engineer. So that gets me and I got the podcast name right. The podcast is also the Diet Doc.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 2:03

We do one with a couple different names, including the Diet Doc, and then Contest Prep University for our competitive athletes.

Philip Pape: 2:09

There we go. That's another good one in my feed, for sure. All right, let's start with the common criticism of macro tracking. I mean, you and I are on the same page Probably most of the listeners are as well but you've got this dichotomy sometimes between macro tracking and intuitive eating. Some people say it's, at best, a rigid approach that locks you into tracking and weighing your food forever, and then at worst it's a socially acceptable form of disordered eating. So what's your response to all of that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 2:37

Well, I have to go back and add a little of my own context in the fact that when I started this 30 years ago, I didn't really look at it as an alternative method. I looked at it as a way of teaching clients about nutrition, and so my goal was not to say you have done these methods and now I have a new system to show you. We have to learn these things. You have to learn what's in food, so then you can make the best decisions. We have to learn these things. You have to learn what's in food, so then you can make the best decisions.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 3:06

So I would say I figured it out as I went with my initial clients, going all the way back to my initial postgraduate years, and the entire entire premise was freedom, only learned how valuable structure was, probably five or 10 years ago, when people still kept asking for meal plans in some form of structure. So I think that's when I went back and relied a little bit more on my social psychology background to realize, wait a second, this is more developmental than anything. People really do need a high degree of security and structure, and then they will take the steps necessary toward greater flexibility and freedom, and I think that's why there are so many people pulling this in different directions. They themselves, as academics or coaches or practitioners, are at different levels of their own discovery, and so they project that onto their client base, not often realizing that every single client is on their own chronological journey.

Philip Pape: 4:11

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. I think you were talking on another podcast about how the intuitive eating crowd or a person who comes up with a diet book and they have this special way of looking at food and they're like you don't have to track, you don't have to count calories, you don't have to count food. By the way, here is my structured table that you need to fill out every day for the portions of this, this, this, and you need to track these kinds of food. And you're like look, it's still a form of structure, it's still a form of tracking. It really comes down to what works for you, but I do like how your premise was. Like you said, the premise was freedom. So if that's the case, why was what existed at the time not giving people that freedom, even if it seemed to ostensibly have structure or planning built in?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 4:55

There are a couple layers to think through. The first is just societally so. In the early 90s, when I was just starting my business, the internet didn't exist as it does now. Social media did not exist at all. Matter of fact, my first doctoral dissertation I had to type on a typewriter. The kind of technology and communication we have today just didn't exist.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 5:20

So the types of weight loss efforts people would engage in were should I do the zone diet or the Atkins diet? Whatever was on the bookshelves at Barnes and Noble is what people had at their fingertips, and that was literally it. That was it. And so for me already, kind of a pedagogical approach because I had just gone through so much academic work myself was okay. There has to be a way to teach these people how to do this for the long haul.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 5:49

Why do people fail? Even back then I understood recidivism was just the biggest obstacle. So if people had a hard time keeping weight off, why is that? And I knew it was because they were not learning anything, they were just blindly following a rigid diet structure. And again, as that kind of break point in our history, before mass media, before digital communication, before social media, there already existed some pushback against that. The phrase rigid dieting already existed. There just wasn't an answer for it and so, as I said, I kind of stumbled through, trying to teach people parts of diets they already may be familiar with.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 6:37

Here's what you've done in the past, what worked, what didn't work. Ultimately, why did that fail? And now we need to reverse engineer that and make sure you learn what is in food. So, tracking macros I used to, philip, go to Barnes Noble every month and buy cases and cases of Corinne Netzer's book called the Food Count Book, and it was just probably a 600, 700-page book. That was like a printed version of a macro tracking platform Database. Yeah, yeah, 700 page book, there was like a printed version of a macro tracking you know, platform database.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 7:06

Yeah, yeah, and, and, and. I would sit down with a client and our first consult was to teach them how to look up food. Look up, you know, this is what you like for breakfast, this is what you what you like for lunch. Let's use the foods you you already enjoy and let's put together an appropriate meal plan. Maybe we do need to substitute some better options, but let's mathematically look up what that means, the language of nutrition being this numerical attachment of energy balance. And that was mind-blowing to these clients and they loved it, especially because we were doing that together. So they could then go home and say, wow, if this is what I eat for this snack, what's an equivalency I could use in a different food if I get bored or I just don't have that food? And so they would instantly get in that groove of tracking macros. For the purpose of freedom, I can eat what I want as long as I know what energy value it's giving me.

Philip Pape: 8:05

So there's an education and skill component and the idea that you stumbled into this. It's funny because probably many of us can relate, even in our own lives stumbling across things. Hopefully it's easier now with podcasts and books and whatnot. But I tried tracking macros two or three times over the 20 years I did diets and it wasn't until the third time where I did it, while also, you know, coming across Eric Helms and the muscle and strength pyramids and the recent research on flexible dieting and kind of almost got lucky. I'm grateful that I finally saw oh, now I understand how this all connects and now I'm immersed in that world and you're talking about before we had the internet, before we had a database.

Philip Pape: 8:45

It sounds like a hard work. Maybe it's what Weight Watchers capitalized on with the point system later on. What is the history in the evidence of rigid versus flexible dieting? My understanding is it really took off in the 90s, but how did that get us to today? Even the term flexible dieting, which is misunderstood as either if it's your macros or just general flexibility how does that all bring us to today, I guess?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 9:44

It's actually very recent. I can only now find research that investigates the phrasing flexible dieting or macronutrient tracking up to about the last eight to 10 years. Up to about the last eight to 10 years, which makes sense because as I was doing what I was doing, it wasn't like it was on the cover of Time Magazine or on CNN every night. It took a while for that to take off and then become more of the normalized version. So, especially when social media came around about 20 years ago, now more people are doing that and we now have an entire generation of exercise scientists and nutrition academics who grew up, as you like, looking at this as a more normalized version of how we even understand nutrition, and now they are backtracking, saying wait a second, this actually hasn't been tested, it hasn't been evaluated or researched in all the ways we should, so there is a massive amount just coming out. So it's really kind of a beginning phase, I think, of the research you're going to see proliferate a lot in the next couple decades.

Philip Pape: 10:49

Yeah, it's very exciting. You know, talking to guys like Bill Campbell and Alan Aragon, you know, even they give you a sense of what we still don't know and what we don't know we don't know in the field and a lot of it is trial and error and you know, you and I work with clients, and those listening to the show know that there's often 20 paths to the same solution and that's part of the flexibility and sustainability. Just the other day I onboarded a client who's like I just want to have the exact same calories every day. It reduces stress for me. And then another client will say I need more calories on the weekend. That reduces stress, right, so exactly exactly.

Philip Pape: 11:24

So you know, I've heard you talk about, like, the levels of precision, the levels of not perfections, so to speak, but there's a dichotomy there. And then, like, are we using data to just improve this skillset, improve this education, versus looking at it as failure? Right, there's a big mindset piece. So can you kind of explain that, the failure versus data, the precision versus perfection, and then how that relates to what we're ultimately trying to get here was just something sustainable that works for us.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 11:52

Everything you just said there, if we combine it, I think has all the answers in that.

Philip Pape: 11:57

Okay, we're good, we're done Well not just you.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 12:01

Me and other people in our industry know what we don't know, and we don't know that there are, or we know there are, things we don't know. Clients are very myopically blinded by this. Is this is the only step I can see, like whatever you're telling them to do, and they don't think they can do it. That's as far as they go. So what am I going to eat tomorrow? And that's why they ask for the security of a meal plan, or just tell me exactly what to eat. I need to eat the same thing every day to make it easier. And then, as soon as they break through that barrier, then they can see the next step, and that's going to probably elicit the need for a little more flexibility. Oh, I didn't consider that on Tuesdays I have to take my kids soccer practice, and oh, friday I have this employee meeting and I can't eat my normal breakfast, and so then they have to start creating and crafting different types of strategies. So they will always, for a long time, think of failure as a looming threat. What if I can't do it? This is what I'm supposed to do. What if I can't do it? Then they get through that step and they think of another pitfall that they might encounter. And so it is the goal of a coach. It should be the goal of a coach to show them that, look, there is no such thing as ultimate failure here. It's data and it's learning, and maybe we don't have our best day. We learn from that. We have a better day tomorrow. Is this week a better week than last week? Did we do better this month than we did last month? Even getting down to the unit of a day as well? If I hit my macros today, that was success. Well, what if you didn't? Does that mean the whole week was any worse than last week? So I think we are constantly going to be reminding clients through their entire process that you know, don't think about failure. Don't think about failure. Don't think about failure. Just think about learning and experience and progress.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 13:55

Because ultimately, philip, you know, we track macros, we learn that language of nutrition so that it doesn't have to be so cumbersome later. I do not track macros now. I do not physically enter into an app or a spreadsheet because I just don't have to. I know what I'm eating, I know what's in the food I'm eating. I know the quantities I'm eating. I know how long ago my food I'm eating, I know the quantities I'm eating, I know how long ago my last meal was, when my next meal will be. All of that stuff is just subconscious to me now, and when I need it to be a little bit more top of mind, then I can access that. But again, a client just starting. None of that stuff even makes sense. They don't know what they don't know, and so we have to be the guides that successfully, happily, take them from one step to the next.

Philip Pape: 14:44

Yeah, it's a great way to put it, because people do want the answer they want, like how do I do this? Give it to me. And what you're saying is there's this baseline that looks like rigidity that people come from, due to society, due to years and years of diets. Failure is this threat that's always there around the corner, but the progress we make is by shifting that slowly, with these strategies, which may require a coach or someone else to kind of give you the possibilities, right, because people just don't always know, and then eventually it becomes intuitive. You mentioned the word better and I want to poke at that a bit, because you'll often hear somebody say, like I'll hear this in a check-in you know I didn't do good or I could do better, or I did better. What are your thoughts on that? How do you define better? Is better being more able to take the data and make informed decisions, or is it actually hitting targets more accurately? Like what? What is better to you?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 15:37

Well, chronologically, again, it kind of depends on what that client is working toward. Um, I want to see objectivity become somewhat integrated. You use the words in the introduction being aligned with your goals, and so initially, you know, if I'm working with my grandson on learning the alphabet, you know we kind of have to learn the basics. Like we really need to focus on how to draw those letters, what order they're in, like there's a system and we just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. We get those reps in to learn, then you can use those letters any way you want, you can create a Shakespearean play. Now you have ultimate freedom.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 16:19

But it took a shit ton of rote work and repetition just to get there. So for some clients, yes, it's, it's, let's practice on content, meaning you know the quantity and so forth, and uh, let's start interceptively trying to match what your body's telling you. There's intuition, right. Can you really tell what your blood sugar is? Uh, you know how empty your stomach is, like like those kinds of things Can you try to quantify, even though you can't measure them completely objectively. And we get down the line where you're improving your health, you're improving the body composition levels that you want, and yet you're also integrating it into real life with a sense of ease. We don't want this to add stress to you. We want it to relax the levels of stress to you. So I think all of those things are happening simultaneously, but again a client's really going to be focusing on what they need for that step that they're on.

Philip Pape: 17:19

I know why you're such a great coach because you're putting me at ease with the way you take us on this journey to a more relaxed state of living, which is what we want. I think people you know a guy like me is obsessed with numbers and can get neurotic about things, and I very much identify with that archetype, and so when you can get to the point where it's just life, I think that could be awesome. You said a few things I want to mention. You said I want to see objectivity become more integrated. That's beautiful because it is a very emotionally driven thing food right, emotion, then tied to the emotion of body image, then tied to the emotion of like all the expectations we have and others have for us, maybe with our health. So making it more objective, even if objective means tracking something about yourself subjectively, but in a way that gives you awareness that didn't exist before, you know. You mentioned a bunch of different aspects of biofeedback. You also mentioned because so we homeschool our kids and they pretty much love all their subjects. But you mentioned the alphabet and I was thinking math, a similar thing where there's always this pushback against memorizing your times tables right, but that builds a foundation for making arithmetic easy.

Philip Pape: 18:27

And then, once you learn arithmetic, algebra is easy. And then, once you learn arithmetic, algebra is easy. And then algebra makes calculus easy. I know, not for everybody is people are like what? But I love math. So I think people need to understand that there's an element of patience required, but you can get to a point where you've got this mad skill, these mad nunchuck skills. If you remember Napoleon Bonaparte and I've been through that man like I had no clue what I was doing for decades and now it's like yeah, I have confidence, right? Isn't that what we want, joe? Like just clarity and confidence.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 18:54

I absolutely used a bunch of the phrases you just described with a couple of client conversations yesterday. Well, one is with a client who is the ultimate perfectionist, you know, high in neuroticism, and I had to say, look, man, I get it Like I want that standard to be high, I want you to achieve all your goals, but we need some patience as well. You are, you are a bag of biology and that's not linear, like it's not going to happen every day Like you want it to. You have to contend with a lot of things neurologically, physiologically, and so take a breath, let's calm down. Let's look at the long picture here, the long term.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 19:31

But another client you were talking about just having confidence in that word is so important. Can you just have the confidence that you're doing enough things well, that you're still making progress? One of those 10 variables you may think just wasn't up to snuff yesterday or last week, but that's okay, we're doing other things. We can backtrack and work on that as well. So, yeah, I really think that's a great way to. You're not an expert or you wouldn't be submitting yourselves to our care and our guidance and our support. So how long would it take you to learn a foreign language. How long would it take you to learn a musical instrument? Let's give this a little time and let's build this process so that, a year from now, you never have to worry about it again.

Philip Pape: 20:25

Yeah, and even if you know the saxophone, the clarinet might be hard. I mean my I'm trying to help my daughter with a clarinet and I'm a sax player and it's like YouTube, like I don't know the finger. So people, just again having some grace with yourself that you may be good in one thing and then others need help and so reach out for help for that client you mentioned, who's also a bit neurotic about hitting exact targets. Let's get to specifics about macros, for example. Would you use ranges? Would you use minimums? What would be a good stepping stone approach you might take with somebody like that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 20:56

I've always used ranges I mean from 30 years ago forward simply because, again, a daily metric is not totally necessary If I'm 10 or 15 grams over in this or 20 grams under on this. First of all, the energy exchange may be perfectly fine. Two, we don't know what your energy expenditure is every single day and it just may come out in the wash right. Your net weekly averages, I think, are more important than one particular day, and that also is feedback and data. You know, if we see that you're consistently over here or under there, let's see if there's a way to move the goalposts to fit better, what you naturally might need. You know not what I subjectively assessed. So there's a lot that goes into just creating a system of boundaries and then observing what's happening and then starting to fine tune and maybe tightening up those ranges a little bit.

Philip Pape: 21:56

But I think there always has to be an element of range versus just super specific numerical goals goals, yeah, yeah, I've always wondered about that, because even I suspect that even with if the range is too tight you mentioned the tightening of the range of even if it's too tight that could almost be just as restrictive as a number itself. One thing I found it in I'm sure you've experienced this with a client who, well, let me ask you as a question, would you ever go with something more, let's say, aggressive? So let's say, somebody wants to do fat loss and you set them into, you know, a slightly larger deficit, knowing that if they aren't even close to the targets, they're still going to be in a deficit? Or would you rather, right off the bat, go precisely after the glide path you want? Do you know what I'm saying?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 22:42

Yeah, um. So it's interesting because when I am mentoring coaches, speaking of rigidity, most new coaches come from this just highly fundamentalism type approach. Like this is what I'm going to do with my clients, and they're going to do it this way, and you know, I need to really rein them in and tell them to sit back and look at each client as an individual who might need a different type of journey, client as an individual who might need a different type of journey, and so one of the things that I do, especially in our NAMS certification coach coaching program, is teach coaches that a client who comes to us wants results and they're excited, they're motivated, like all of that is very front loaded, and so they're probably going to make a lot of higher quality decisions. They're going to eat more energy, dense foods, healthier foods, and so, instead of falling into the trap of pop culture levels of food, like everybody needs to eat as much as they possibly can and I don't want to make my clients feel bad. So even a female who may be 60 years old and a hundred pounds overweight, I'm going to give her 300 grams of carbs and 70 grams of fat. They're just.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 23:52

You're probably going to put them in a position where they're very frustrated. They're not losing weight. Two or three weeks down the line, they've hired you and now you're going to take food away Like that's like they're already upset and now you're penalizing them. Like they're already upset and now you're penalizing them. So when I'm working with a new client, I definitely want to get out of the gate strong, because physiologically they're probably going to feel better regardless of what we do. And then, after a really good launch, they're going to get, instead of punished, rewarded by saying wow, we need to actually increase your food a little bit Now. They feel like rock stars. So the process we do things as coaches and for ourselves, I think matters a lot. So you know I don't know if that answers your.

Philip Pape: 24:36

Yeah, no, it does. It's one of a million permutations of you know how do you handle a client situation? And I only bring this up because, again, when I work with clients, these pop up and I'm like I'm talking to Joe. This week I got to ask him, you know, because I've seen clients who they're in an intended deficit and then they're overshooting on their calories but they're still in a deficit and making tons of progress and it's like that's a huge win. Like before you were struggling to make progress, now you're not and, like you said, maybe it's now learning about that and just tightening it up, like, hey, you could even make more progress potentially. Or we titrate you back to a less aggressive rate now that you've gotten that quick win, like you said, out of the gate.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 25:14

Well, if I could offer Philip another way of looking at this is sometimes clients come to us now with a lot more sophistication. They've probably gone through a few programs, They've tracked macros before. So most clients are coming to us with a lot more knowledge than perhaps they would have 10 or 20 years ago, and along with that comes their own level of confidence that I know what I need. And so that often leads to a little friction with a coach. And so, for example, I had a client just maybe about a month or two start with me just a month or two ago and he said I don't want to track macros. So he had already kind of hit that approach and just thought it's too tedious, monotonous. I'm not an accountant, I don't dig that kind of stuff. So I said, sure, let's just work on habit-based stuff. I'm willing to meet any client where they are, I'm willing to meet any client where they are. And so he was working on these things, these habits, everything was going great.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 26:09

And over the course of his first month he gained about five or six pounds. He was like wait a second, I'm eating better, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And I said well, you know, I mean, your body doesn't make body fat out of thin air, like we are dealing with very finite energy balance quantities. Problem is you're just not aware of what they are, because you decided you wanted an intuitive approach, maybe because you've tracked some macros in the past and you at least have that foundation. We just simply need a little bit of an auditing period, a little bit of regrouping. So I would bet if we track your macros for a couple of weeks, just so you can establish the meals and the meal quantities and the food sources that you want, then you wouldn't have to track anymore because you already know how to do that. And of course, boom. His next month, you know he lost that five or six pounds and more.

Philip Pape: 26:58

Did he stop tracking after that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 27:00

We're in that phase now. We're, we're still, we're kind of entering the end of that and we'll see, we'll, we'll. You know, maybe it kind of goes on autopilot or maybe he keeps tracking uh, you know, we'll.

Philip Pape: 27:12

We'll see where he wants to go with his own personal journey here. Sure Cause, sometimes you know the thing that's giving you the result you're like, hmm, maybe I'm going to keep doing this for a while. So another angle when it comes to that is people think of the terms counting calories right, and weighing all your food you know, sometimes put into derogatory context and how it can potentially lead to an unhealthy relationship with food. What, what is the reality on that? I mean, what does both the evidence say and your experience say on tracking tied to obsessiveness or, you know, your relationship with food?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 27:41

So you use the word archetype a few minutes ago and I did one of my master's theses in personality psychology and so I'm very familiar with all the different ways of assessing it and just the way people think and information flows through our brains, and I think, to be honest, that just comes down to a person's personality type. Sometimes it's all about the food, sometimes it has nothing to do with the food, and so these are conversations we're not all equipped to have with a lot of depth with clients. I'm not going to psychoanalyze a client and tell them what they need and what they don't need, but I'm going to certainly suggest that there are possibilities that you know. Maybe we do need to focus on the mechanics of this food, maybe we need a little more structure, maybe we need a little more flexibility, or maybe this has nothing to do with the food and like we're really dealing with some impulsiveness. Uh, we're dealing with, uh, just a lack of time, like you just don't have the bandwidth to really focus on this.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 28:40

You have so many other things going on in your life. There are myriad reasons why somebody may be struggling and feel like food is becoming too obsessive. You know, binge eating, of course, is a huge deal and a lot of people who come to nutrition coaches have that already as a backdrop. And we are the next stop in a long chain of ways to struggle with something they feel is very out of control. And you're the coach coming along thinking you have all the answers and the perfect process and system, and this person is literally drowning in psychological issues that have nothing to do with the food. They're just dragging food into that system. So, again, a lot of things for coaches to be aware of and know our scope of practice and how we can help clients become aware of how they might need some other resources besides us. But we certainly have to be good enough to recognize when it is and when it isn't about the food.

Jerry: 29:41

I just wanted to give a shout out to Phillip. I personally worked with Phillip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist. Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one. He's really taken the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth.

Jerry: 30:03

If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip.

Philip Pape: 30:55

I'm glad you mentioned scope of practice. If you hadn't, I would have mentioned that as well. Whether you're a coach listening or a client that not every coach might be right for you to be able to go into the depth you need. Or if you need mental health care or something like that. I know I've referred clients to a friend of mine who's actually a hypnotherapist, but he used to be in kind of a nutrition coach for years as well. So straddles both sides of it. I was thinking of the movie Stuts on Netflix. You ever seen that?

Philip Pape: 31:21

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I bring it up all the time because I think that's a great example where the therapist helps the client process through and kind of move forward and use tools, very much like you were talking about just using tools and structure and kind of getting objective about it to see if that helps the client process through, even without necessarily uncovering the trauma or going back into childhood. If they need that, they need that. But is that a good parallel, do you think?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 31:54

Yes, and Phil Stutz. If you read his book he even goes into more detail. The etiology of his practice theory is why are we just sitting here going through all of this stuff and psychoanalyzing? And then the patient is just left feeling like, am I ever going to get any help? And he said I knew as a psychiatrist I needed every single patient to leave my office every single session feeling like they have some good work to do and some light at the end of the tunnel. They have something they can improve and work on right now, and that is a perfect parallel to nutrition.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 32:23

What is our goal right now? Sometimes it is just to reframe our thoughts around food. We don't have to lose weight. We don't have to make sure we're staying in a state of lipolysis and so forth If that is not going to matter for the longterm. If what you need right now is something a little bit more esoteric, then that's what we have to focus on and that's that's why I love the way you said. You said you have to understand whether a coach is right for you or not. There is so much that goes into a coach's skills being able to meet what you need at this moment in your health history and your health journey.

Philip Pape: 33:01

You know how to make a guy feel warm and fuzzy, joe, with all your compliments, so thank you. But I do think you're absolutely right with the goal of reframing, is sometimes what you get out of it, and it's so underrated because this isn't about. It really isn't about macros. For the most part it's how you look at things, and there's somebody in my coaching group who calls me the positivity bully because almost inevitably her thing is just the way. She says something, let's reframe it and aha, everything just gets unlocked. And if we could do that with ourselves, that could be powerful. What about you? What do you suggest to the listener? Joe is a valuable tool when it comes to reframing. Um.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 33:41

I think this is where it helps just have the support that we can offer. Uh, one of my clients mentioned to me just this week like I would pay you just to be my friend, like if we ever get through all of my goals and all this stuff, like, will you please never leave me, I will pay you, even if we're just friends and you know, talk about a compliment, right, because that person is articulating that I find your support as valuable as the mechanistic things that we're working through and for part of our work together. That is the most important part. Isn't it funny, philip, that we're teaching people to use third grade math as it relates to nutrition? And we know a calorie isn't just a calorie quote unquote but it kind of is.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 34:28

And so a lot of the skills and the progress we're teaching is how we can get all of this to line up and work in real life, as we agreed earlier, with some ease as it becomes second nature. And so some of the psychological aspects, behavioral things, maybe, our social circumstances, family life and so forth, it all changes and it's all this ball of dynamic chaos that we can't always control, but it sure helps to have a coach who can help you organize it for your end goals, for you to get there and then learn how to manage it yourself. If it were just as easy as watching a YouTube video and learning a single skill okay, you know, there's the ballgame. You don't need anything else, you've got the video. That's never going to happen, you know. A good coach is valuable in that way.

Philip Pape: 35:18

Yeah, I totally agree. I used to do a lot of how-to episodes that were very long and people would still have questions, because there are a million exceptions to every rule. And you said dynamic chaos, that's life. And if anyone listening is like, well, but this thing happens to me. Just know that that is the default for everyone. Like things are going to happen literally every day that we can't expect. So, given that, joe, what would you say? You've worked with a lot of high-level athletes, bodybuilders I mean, you've seen the whole spectrum of people. Is there a toolbox you have of I'll call them default strategies? Let's say that you can start with like nonlinear dieting approaches or calorie cycling, refeed, diet breaks, like kind of how do you put that all together? We don't have to get into super nitty gritty, but is there a set of strategies that people can start from when they personalize things, knowing that their schedule, their lifestyle, could be anywhere?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 36:10

I definitely like to start with a high level of structure, as I mentioned, and even if that's just one step so if I am onboarding a client, as you said earlier, and even if they are super intelligent, they know exactly where we're heading I'll say, okay, let's look at the foods you like, your schedule, this, that let's look at the macronutrient energy balance goals we have and let's put this together as a single step. And then how are we going to move forward from that? And I will say, philip, I try to play the subjective and objective parallels together. I'm certainly assessing objective data, I'm looking at progress and so forth, as I'm interviewing them and assessing subjective input, and so I need them to see both as well. You mentioned that I work with high-level athletes, and so I'll mention you know, having worked with NFL football players and being basketball players and so forth, Olympic athletes even. Even you know there's a lot, a lot of risk. I mean, they, they, they have goals that are very high level goals and they need things to work extremely well, and I'm part of their coaching team doing one thing specifically, and so I have to make sure they're getting the absolute, most accurate, concise, best information, because they are going to follow it, like they are so incentivized, best information, because they are going to follow it. Like they are so incentivized, motivated, they are going to follow it.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 37:33

So I start with that same mentality with any clients of any level, knowing that this is this is how I'm going to perceive it.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 37:42

If I'm a neurosurgeon, I'm not doing my best work only for this client because I think their value is different than this patient's value, but at the same time now I start reading their input, their level of interest, what they need to work on. There's a constant assessment. So my toolbox and my default strategies are always just I'm going in here ethically looking at what can I do, and that starts with my own level of time commitment. There was a day speaking of 20, 30 years ago, before smartphones existed and you could message on 50 different apps and so forth, where communication was fewer and far between, and so there's just no excuse today for a coach not to be giving super high level service and communication, and so I think that that is the crux of it. Any default strategy, anything I'm pulling out of my toolbox, is going to be for that context, when that client needs it, and it's my job to constantly read that situation with them and communicate through it.

Philip Pape: 38:49

Yeah, and it's, would you say.

Philip Pape: 38:51

It's rewarding too when you realize that, although everyone can have kind of this starting point based on their numbers, based on their objective data, when you really get into it with the conversations and this is where listeners, you know, I always encourage you to to talk to someone you know, like have that support, whether it is a coach or community or another person going through this there's something different about you, there's something going on, there's something that you need help with, and sometimes it's little right, joe, it's like I have a client who does everything, but her fiber was a bit low and she was having some gut issues, right.

Philip Pape: 39:22

So it's like, okay, there's the thing, but it may not have been obvious just from putting you on this objective plan or using this single one size fits all. So, all right. What do you think of people going it alone? And it's kind of the opposite of that. When people try to go alone, if they're, let's say, very self-motivated, they listen to your podcast, my podcast, so they know all the right things, and they're like I'm going to do this. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 39:46

Well, I'm all for it because I do that myself. I changed my son's brakes with him in our driveway, with a YouTube video. The problem is it took three trips to the auto store and 12 hours and we still didn't do it very well, where I could have just taken it in and spent probably the same amount of money and had it done in an hour. But I'm all for it. Like I love the experience part. I love that people are trying to save a little money or be independent. It's just that you have to decide what level you want to play at, and so you know, if you run into snags, then a coach may be helpful.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 40:23

We don't know what we don't know. So those are the kinds of things your clients who may have had some GI issues and would not have maybe stumbled across the information that he or she needed a little extra fiber. Or should it be soluble versus insoluble? Should I experiment with this? Maybe I need a probiotic? Um, so you know, when you have an expert at your side, it's going to be a little bit more efficient. Uh, but I I cannot complain about people who love to, you know, engage in a little DIY. That's, that's certainly what I like.

Philip Pape: 40:52

I hear you, man, I'm right there too and and have also hit the wall. Or you know, when we built our house, how many times I had to go to Home Depot Cause I forgot one little part. You know, like geez, the amount of gas I'm spending was probably worth hiring somebody. All right, cool. So we we've had a lot on psychology. I do want to dive in a couple detailed areas that people are always interested. One of these is hard gaining people that are struggling to build muscle. What, what's your, what are your top strategies when you see this, and just to give you context, I don't want to label somebody as a hard gainer by default, cause that's like a, you know, a fixed growth kind of thing. It's more of um, I like to use a hard gainer phase, or you're experiencing a hard gaining phase during your gaining phase.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 41:39

What are your top strategies for that? Again, interesting timing, because I was just messaging a client who think we're up to four or 5,000 calories and really pushing to try to gain some muscle, and as a just pure ectomorph he has some great advantages, but that becomes a job. I mean, that is tough. How do you squeeze in more food when you're already eating that much every two to three hours? And so it becomes somewhat strategic. You know, we're of course working on calorie density, but with whole foods and high quality foods that becomes an absolute volume game game. So what is your threshold for? Maybe simple sugars, liquid calories? We want, you know, some fat for density, but how much saturated fat is good for you or not? So again, I mean a lot of, a lot of experimentation, a lot of talking through scheduling and food source availability.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 42:29

One of my clients who is a competitor in a very controlled off season and she wants to, you know, maintain her weight only six, seven, eight pounds above contest weight, which is appropriate for her next goal, and her baseline food intake is already really, really high, really good, you know she's at 250 or so grams of carbs, 70 grams of fat, and so if we want to try to push for just a little more hypertrophy, just a little bit more body mass gain, without it being body fat.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 43:00

Do we just add an extra 20 grams of carbs, an extra a hundred calories a day? I told her let's be really strategic, let's put this where it matters the most pre-workout, post-workout what days do you really feel hungry? Because you may just have a little bit more non-exercise activity? And so it's not just sometimes blanketly adding calories, it's being very, very strategic with those. So for a hard gainer, of course, as I just mentioned, it's going to be pre and post-workout how do we fuel the best workouts and how do we get the most absolute recovery we can? And that's going to be probably a lot of food around those major heavy, compound exercise days.

Philip Pape: 43:39

Yeah, love that. So both the calorie density. But now you have to watch out for trade-offs between calorie density and like how much processed foods or liquid foods or fat, because fat has saturated fat. Yeah, you're right, there's, there's difficulties that people don't always appreciate. And then strategically aligning that with your schedule, your training, because at the end of the day, we're trying to get the most out of our training here, right? So, okay, love that. What about carbs? Because you mentioned carbs multiple times and of course, there's always been debate about the role of carbs and muscle building in performance and people cherry pick the studies. You know you got the keto crowd saying, no, you can be super jack, build tons of muscle, and keto Others are like, no, here are the studies on bodybuilders that you build like five times as much muscle when you have moderate to high carbs. So what's your, what's your take on that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 44:22

I mean exactly what you just said. The studies are pretty clear. So you know, first of all, on protein intake, there's a minimum threshold and there's a maximum, and so the Protein Summit a council that has met a few times has very conclusively, with all of their experts from around the world in multidisciplinary fields, have shown that about two times the US RDA is the sweet spot, that's the peak of the bell curve and you can go up to maybe three times the RDA and there can be some value sometimes for some people. But beyond that you get, you get pretty minimal return and then if you're just adding more protein, you're taking away calories that could have come from from carbohydrates, which are more protein sparing and more metabolic and more anabolic. So, incidentally, you know that particular, you know, think of that group as almost walking meta-analysis, all of these people from different disciplines doing this research and coming together. When you do single study experiments on the same subject, they get the same results. It's like, oh yeah, they're right.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 45:29

About two times the RDA is kind of the max, which is somewhat surprising for bodybuilders and some athletes who can consume more protein, but for, you know, maybe the general population, that's also a step almost too far out of you know need and so maybe for them 1.25 or 1.5 times the RDA is enough. They don't have muscle building goals. Their body fat levels are never going to reach those you know dangerously catabolic levels. So yeah, I mean, even even in aging populations, where we we really do need higher protein levels and maybe three times the RDA, is helpful. It's not like we're going to die if we don't get that every single day. So depends on your goals, depends on your status metabolically. But you're, you're just, you're going to, you're going to find those answers If you're willing to do some body comp analysis. You know, get, get on a stycu or an InBody or a DEXA scan and do a little tracking over a year or two and you'll, you'll probably find what's right for you.

Philip Pape: 46:30

So you you basically answered the question about carbs from the anchor of protein, right Is what we're getting at, which is which is very interesting, because that's that's again we. We work similarly, where you start with protein and then you build the fats and carbs from there. Um, just a little more on the carbs, just so people know what are you giving up if you are lower carb while in a gaining phase? So you know what I mean If you're down at 100 or you know kind of keto world or low carb world.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 46:58

Well, once you have consumed the minimum amount of protein necessary for your goals, which would be to gain muscle, you're out of that negative energy balance. Your blood nitrogen levels are positive most of the time. Then there's a small margin to get up to maximum utilization. So here's minimum threshold. Maximum utilization isn't that high. You go a step higher and now you're taking away potential calories from carbohydrates. More protein beyond what you can use isn't more anabolic, it's not more metabolic. But the carbs that you're giving up are and I know this isn't an exact, you know replica of science, but you said you know more carbs could be five times more anabolic. They certainly are a multiplier of more anabolism, you know, because, because insulin is often the the bad guy right. But insulin is what also drives growth. It's what drives nutrients into cells, including carbohydrates, glucose into muscle cells for glycogen, which then increases the ability to synthesize protein to actually build more muscle.

Philip Pape: 48:06

Just wanted to set the record straight for all the people. And, by the way, that protein council all I could think of was like Lord of the Rings, when they're at the waterfall and they're all having the big council. Here's how much protein we need to eat, guys.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 48:17

Okay, definitive, pretty definitive.

Philip Pape: 48:19

No, for sure, For sure. It's pretty clear cut. So on the opposite end, when we're in a cut, the calorie deficits and calories have to be fairly low. How do you approach macro trade-offs, cause that's kind of what we were talking about there. For example, is there ever a case where we want to lower the protein even further to allow for more carbs or even fats?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 48:41

Possibly if you are at a level that's just needlessly high. And I'll give you a good example Sometimes it's more the endomorph. If we could use the classic phenotyping heuristic for a minute. Because somebody who's got a slower metabolism, like I, am clinically hypothyroid. I have to take levothyroxine and so forth, and so even in my younger days those TSH levels were already borderline high, subclinical hypothyroid, and that just goes into my whole family history.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 49:12

I come from a family of pretty high obesity, which the benefit of that is you just don't churn through muscle tissue Like we have a lot of muscle but we also have a lot of body fat, different than an ectomorph. So often people who think well, I need fewer calories, I'm an endomorphic body type, so I better make sure my protein is higher to sustain lean body mass. You're going to sustain more lean body mass period. So if you are inching toward a ketogenic level of dieting and you're giving up a lot of carbs, then you may struggle with binge eating and you may just be suffering and hungrier. So you may be fine with two times the RDA of protein instead of three times the RDA of protein. So stay there, give yourself the carbs so that at least you have enough to make it meal to meal comfortably. You know the whole process of lipolysis and gluconeogenesis as your body is resynthesizing. You know from lipids. You know glucose for blood sugar, for immediate energy needs.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 50:18

When you're dieting sometimes it is just kind of surviving meal to meal. It's like I am really hungry. I ate two hours ago. I've only got an hour to go. You're watching the clock and if you are really really low in carbohydrates and you're just trying to suffer through long stretches of a day, it's just arduous to the point where those are the highest categories of people who fail. Studies on ketogenic dieting shows that is the highest failure rate possible. That is the diet that creates the most binge eating disorder. So that's the reason why you just you. You cannot live that low. You can I should say you can if you have to, but it's in a space where you have the food availability. You're going to reach for the carbs when the chips are down.

Philip Pape: 51:05

I mean, if you, if I didn't have my bagel before this podcast, Joe, you'd be like this is a different person. There you go. No, I had a bagel, this morning too.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 51:11

This is a different person. There you go Now.

Philip Pape: 51:13

I had a bagel this morning too Bagels, man, so good yeah, the and I'm in a fat loss phase guys, so so keto creating the highest failure rate possible. That's good. I actually I don't think I came across that all my time bashing keto.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 51:24

So Several studies, several studies, one from Harvard, one from university of Toronto.

Philip Pape: 51:28

Okay, that that's. That's good. And then you said you know there's some of the psychological or the craving impacts of just being low carb, which is, again, important. It's not just about do you have enough for your recovery and this, and that it's also or you can even stay on your diet or you can even adhere, which is important. What about? Um, how does someone you mentioned body types how does somebody isolate or understand that, their individual response to these different macro levels? Or are we overthinking it? Am I overthinking it Like if somebody should be higher fat or should be higher carb, leaving protein aside for a second?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 51:58

You know it's interesting because a lot of people do want direct answers to questions like this, and there's been some debate over is is there even this? Is this phenotyping, even a thing is, or is it just more of a continuum? And and I think it truly is more of a continuum, and so you can kind of plot yourself along that line and just experientially see how you respond. But this is where a whole nother phase of a conversation could take us, which is experiment is necessary as a coach with a client or just somebody trying to lose weight and learn about your own physiology. You'll never know if you don't experiment. I've done entire phases of ketogenic dieting because I want to see what it's like. I've done self-vegetarian experiments two times, one for a master's thesis, because I wanted to experience that, and so I think it's really, really important to see how far you can stretch, see how you feel. Maybe do blood labs to confirm certain data points. But yeah, just some self-discovery.

Philip Pape: 53:02

Totally on board Rapid prototyping change one variable and see how it goes. I think elimination diets fall under that regime for some people who aren't sure where their trigger foods are, and I like the idea of just you'll never know otherwise. I mean even a single data point, like you'll never know if you get that fifth rep of the squat unless you just try for the fifth rep of that squat, right? So love that kind of choosing hard mentality, if you want to put it that way. Some people don't like that idea, but that's really what it is. It's just going after it and getting the data. All right.

Philip Pape: 53:35

I had so many questions for you, but I know we're getting close on time here. Metabolic adaptation I don't know we talk so much about it, but a lot of people get frustrated when their weight loss stalls and their fat loss stalls and we know that it exists, we know that it's typical for your metabolism to drop and your expenditure to drop. What are the main reasons for that? Is it just a loss of weight? Is it the hormonal response, or is there something else going on?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 53:59

It's both. But the first thing you said is most important. It's normal and your body's way more resilient than you think. So if there's one horrible, evil, absolute myth that needs to die in our diet culture is that you can break your metabolism, you can damage your metabolism, that you need to eat more to lose weight, which is completely counterintuitive and just unfactual. But people believe those things because they hear them repeated, and so you have to realize that the amount of food that it takes you to not be gaining weight just to sustain your weight is more than just the 500-calorie-a-day deficit to lose one pound a week that we think, because that gets you that first step. You go through the stored glycogen in your body, you get into lipolysis and now your body instantly starts adapting. You instantly start to reduce the level of energy that you were using to sustain your weight. So you almost have to then go through another secondary little drop in calories if you didn't account for enough in the first place. But then you're pretty, almost physiologically stoically stable for quite a while until you start reaching your metabolic set point, and then you're exactly right.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 55:19

Two things are happening. If your body weight drops by 20 pounds, the amount of energy it takes your muscular system, your cardiovascular system, to sustain. Your life is simply less. As you become healthier and your heart rate goes down, your VO2 max goes up, you're becoming more energy efficient. You require fewer calories.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 55:40

It is completely counterintuitive to what people think. If I'm lean and healthy, then I'll be a raging furnace, my metabolism will be so high. No, that's when your metabolism will be the lowest. Ever is when you're. You are your healthiest, most efficient, and guess what? That extends life. That's what longevity is when you have a slower heart rate. Slower metabolism. Metabolism is the speed at which life and and turnover is occurring. You want a slower metabolism. Trust me, you want that. But the good news is that your body adapts to that through your hunger levels. Your hypothalamus is not cuing you for more hunger if you don't need that. You know that energy. So it it's all very, very equated and you don't have to worry about it as much as you think yeah, you mentioned the being lean thinking you'll be a raging inferno.

Philip Pape: 56:35

I think it ties in a little bit with the misunderstanding of how many more calories you burn with muscle mass, cause I know people think one of the claims is just add muscle mass and you'll burn a ton more calories, and the reality is it's a little bit more. Right, it's a little bit more. But I do tell people, hey, when you have those extra bounds of muscle, you could probably walk around a little heavier and then you'll burn some more calories, kind of being that nice sweet spot of leanness but not too, not like skinny fat.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 57:01

Yeah, I mean, you and I are sitting right now having this chat, so we're probably burning 50 to 75 calories an hour and we have 70, 80 pounds of muscle on our frames. Each one extra pound of muscle how many calories do you really think per hour that gives you, as as this, you know, added metabolic machinery. It's so fractional.

Philip Pape: 57:23

I think it's six to nine to be precise, right? Something like that. Yeah, I mean yeah, If it can be as jacked as you and add 40 pounds of muscle, you know that starts to have some impact.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 57:32

Well, so there's another thing. I mean. I hate to keep adding more layers to our conversation, but the amount of muscle we gain in gross volume is next to nothing. I mean truly, when you look at pro drug-free bodybuilders and you say, okay, here, here was their, their first year of training, here's their final year of training. 20 or 30 years later they look like they've gained unbelievable amounts of muscle. And you ask them what their weight was, and it's, it's oftentimes identical. You know, I've, I've done so many. You know, you know presentations with a PowerPoint comparison showing people that, and so again, you just it's. It's the wrong end of the horse to be looking at if you're just trying to add muscle, just so you can eat more.

Philip Pape: 58:15

Totally agree, totally agree. All right, joe, we've covered the gamut. We got through pretty much all the topics I wanted to talk about, but if there's any one thing that I didn't cover, is there a question you wish I had asked? And then, if so, what would your answer be?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 58:28

I'm going to give you a more direct compliment in that your proficiency in just articulating all of these scientific principles and topics is just unbelievable. You mentioned that I get interviewed quite a bit and I am obviously very honored to be in conversation with anybody who's serious about science communication. You are phenomenal, my friend. Your exactness and your understanding and your conversational tone is so good that I literally have nothing else I could add to this conversation.

Philip Pape: 59:00

Man. Joe, I needed to hear that. That's so nice when somebody compliments you, and I'm grateful for you doing this and saying that it means a lot to me. Thank you.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 59:08

Well, I appreciate the invitation.

Philip Pape: 59:10

I appreciate the invitation. Yeah, yeah, man, I'm going to keep following you, you know, to the end of time, because you are the godfather of flexible dieting and continue to put out amazing content and, likewise, being a clear communicator, which we need more of out there with what social media looks like right now. And so those listening to the podcast, I want them to follow you and find you wherever you want them to say hello. So where would that be?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 59:31

My social media handles are always at Joe Klimczewski, and YouTube is where we really deposit most of our communication, our research reviews and podcasts.

Philip Pape: 59:46

So the Diet Doc on YouTube. The Diet Doc on YouTube and I'll put all the social media handles. Everyone, please follow, Say hello to Joe. I'm sure he'll say hi back and thanks again for coming on. I think we're going to have to do this again in the future.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 59:54

I hope so. Thank you, yeah All right, man Thanks.

Add THIS To Your Diet to Optimize Fat Loss, Energy, and More (Buffer Systems) | Ep 210

Does fat loss feel harder than it needs to be? Do you experience energy crashes throughout the day, maybe even constant hunger? What if I told you there's a simple addition to your diet that could solve most of these problems?

No, it's not protein... it's a nutrient that often overlooked yet found in many delicious foods.

Today, we're taking a concept from chemical engineering called buffer systems and showing you why this nutrient works the same way in your body. By adding this in, you can optimize your fat loss, stabilize your energy, and improve your overall health. 

In this episode, you'll learn:

• The five key ways THIS nutrient acts as a nutritional "buffer" in your diet

• Why increasing its intake could accelerate your fat loss efforts

• Practical tips for incorporating more of it into your meals

To get your free copy of the guide mentioned in the episode (with full lists of foods sorted by how much of this nutrient they contain)... join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email

Main Takeaways:

• One nutrient acts as a "buffer" to help maintain stability in nutrient absorption, energy levels, and digestion

• This nutrient stabilizes optimizes fat loss by mitigating hunger and spikes in blood sugar, thus avoiding late day energy crashes!

• You can set targets and track your intake of this nutrient using MacroFactor (try it for free with code WITSANDWEIGHT).

Related Episodes:

• Ep 177: How Anatomy Impacts Your Gut, Muscle Mass, Hormones, and Health with Justin Cottle

• The Hidden Brain in Your Gut Might Be Controlling Your Cravings with Dr. William Ferro | Ep 205

• Ep 151: The Surprising Link Between Gut Health, Fat Loss, and Body Composition with Josh Dech

Episode summary:

In today's fast-paced world, losing weight and maintaining a healthy diet can feel like a never-ending battle. Many people turn to complex diet plans and stringent calorie tracking, only to find themselves hungry and energy-depleted. But what if there was a simpler, more effective way to achieve your dietary goals? Enter dietary fiber—the often underestimated nutrient that can revolutionize your health and fat loss journey.

Dietary fiber is likened to a chemical engineering buffer system in this podcast episode, stabilizing your diet by preventing energy crashes and keeping hunger at bay. This analogy is apt, as fiber works to balance various aspects of your nutrition, much like a buffer stabilizes a chemical solution. While protein often takes center stage in diet discussions, this episode argues that for many people, fiber might be the unsung hero, especially when it comes to managing hunger during a calorie deficit.

One of the primary benefits of dietary fiber is its ability to stabilize blood sugar levels. When you consume fiber-rich foods like fruits and vegetables, the digestion of carbohydrates slows down, leading to a more gradual release of glucose into the bloodstream. This helps prevent the rapid spikes and crashes in blood sugar that can leave you feeling tired and irritable. By maintaining steady energy levels throughout the day, you can avoid those dreaded afternoon slumps and stay more productive.

In addition to stabilizing blood sugar, fiber plays a crucial role in digestion. It promotes regular bowel movements and supports a healthy gut environment, preventing issues like constipation. A well-functioning digestive system is essential for overall wellness and can significantly impact how you feel daily. Moreover, fiber-rich foods often come packed with essential micronutrients, reducing the risk of malnutrition, especially during fat loss phases when calorie intake is reduced.

One of the standout points of this episode is the emphasis on the simplicity of a fiber-rich diet. Instead of meticulously tracking calories and macros, focusing on increasing your fiber intake can make a noticeable difference in achieving your dietary goals. Fiber adds bulk to your meals, helping you feel fuller for longer, which is particularly beneficial when you're trying to eat fewer calories. This satiety factor can reduce the likelihood of overeating and make sticking to your diet plan much easier.

Practical tips on integrating more fiber into your diet are also covered in the episode. Starting with your first meal of the day, you can incorporate fiber-rich foods like oatmeal, berries, and chia seeds. Snacks can include vegetables and fruits with the skin, which provide additional fiber and nutrients. For lunch and dinner, adding beans, lentils, and whole grains can further boost your fiber intake. These small dietary changes can lead to significant health improvements over time.

To make this transition even more manageable, the podcast offers a free fiber guide available through their email list. This guide provides a list of fermentable fibers and specific foods to help you effortlessly incorporate more fiber into your meals. Whether you're already following a disciplined fitness regimen or just starting your health journey, this guide can be a valuable resource.

The episode also touches on the broader health benefits of fiber. Regular fiber intake has been linked to improved insulin sensitivity, which, combined with strength training, can enhance how your body uses nutrients and aid in fat loss. Fiber's role in promoting a healthy gut microbiome is another critical aspect, contributing to better digestion and overall wellness.

In summary, this podcast episode sheds light on the transformative power of dietary fiber for fat loss and overall health. By acting as a stabilizing agent in your diet, fiber can prevent energy crashes, curb hunger, and improve digestion. The episode provides actionable insights and practical tips for integrating more fiber into your meals, making it easier to achieve your dietary goals. So, if you're struggling with weight loss or just looking to improve your health, focusing on fiber might be the simple yet effective solution you need.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Does fat loss feel harder than it needs to be? Do you experience energy crashes throughout the day, maybe even constant hunger? What if I told you there's a simple addition to your diet that could solve most of these problems? And it's not protein, but it's a nutrient that is often overlooked and is found in many, many delicious foods. Today, we're taking a concept from chemical engineering called buffer systems and explaining how your body works in that context and why this nutrient works the same way. By adding this in, you can optimize your fat loss, stabilize your energy and improve your overall health.

Philip Pape: 0:53

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're talking about a concept from chemical engineering that could transform your approach when it comes to your diet and your food. We're talking about buffer systems. I know it doesn't sound very exciting yet, but trust me, this is going to be a very cool analogy for how your body works and how this concept relates to a crucial component of your diet, a nutrient that many people are not getting enough of, and that is fiber. Yes, I know, fiber isn't the sexiest topic. I know, gut health isn't the sexiest topic, so what I'm trying to do today is link this all together and talk about all of the different benefits of fiber that you may not have even considered and why it could be the missing piece right now in your diet for things that you didn't realize had anything to do with fiber. And before we even get into that topic, I want to let you know about a guide that I have. It's a free guide tied to fiber. It actually gives you a list of fermentable foods, fermentable fibers. That will help with all of the things we're talking about today yes, gut health, but also everything else. And if you're struggling to figure out where do I get fiber from, how much fiber is in different types of foods and I even have it separated by the different compounds you definitely want this guide. All you have to do is join my email list, go to witsandweightscom slash email and then reply to the welcome email and say, hey, can you give me the fiber guide? I'll be happy to send it over. Just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom. Slash email and then just ask me for my fiber guide, all right. So what we're talking about today is what are buffer systems, how they apply to nutrition and how does fiber act as a buffer in your diet? And before I even go there, I want to define what we mean by buffer and then, once we do, we'll see, it'll all make sense. And then I can talk about some of the tactical aspects of how much fiber, how to track it and how can you get more of it. And again, the guide that I just talked about will have a lot of details as to specific foods, but today I'm covering it at a high enough level so you get the big picture.

Philip Pape: 3:04

And many of us we approach the diet for fat loss with this all or nothing mentality. You know we're cutting calories effectively, that when I say all or nothing, it's usually from a calorie deficit perspective. Right, I need to go on a diet, so I need to cut out calories. Or I'm going to cut out entire food groups like carbs, or we go to some sort of extreme measure in terms of our aggressiveness with the diet, and then that leaves us feeling hungry, we're irritable, we're prone to energy crashes, and all of that is tied into concepts like hyperphasia and massive hunger and binging. And then the yo-yo dieting and all of that. What if, instead? Okay, what if, instead, instead of me telling you, okay, you just need to eat more protein, track your calories, track your macros which are all helpful tools what if there was a very, very simple thing, one thing that you could focus on that would create a lot more stability in your diet, a way to smooth out the energy peaks and the valleys, to control the hunger, to help you not feel deprived, so that you can then start to do those other things better. Kind of a backward approach I'm taking today, where, instead of telling you, track your calories, track your macros, track your this, and that I'm going to focus on one thing and I've already alluded to it, and that's fiber. Right, but I want to explain why that is so, so helpful, and we're going to try to make it sexy today. Okay, so you're like fiber's the new protein.

Philip Pape: 4:30

Everybody talks about getting more protein and yet if I were to split up my clients into two types one that didn't get enough fiber and one that got enough fiber, even when they're doing everything else their strength training they're getting their steps, maybe even they're hitting their macros and they're hitting their calories, but the fiber isn't there. Those that have enough fiber. They're checking off all the boxes. They're like, yeah, good digestion, hunger's fine. You know, I feel nice and full when I eat. I get to eat a lot of different foods, no issues with nutrients, no other weird things going on generally. That's not, you know, explained by something else. And then sort of check all the boxes and then when you look at the people who don't have enough fiber, um, and every time I onboard a new client, I would say 50% of the time they are far short on their fiber, and oftentimes these are people who are doing all the things. I love working with clients who are already lifting weights and already doing some of these and they're like there's something else happening here, and oftentimes it's just a lack of fiber, and you find that a lack of fiber leads to a lot of things that are otherwise prevented by that and you don't realize it.

Philip Pape: 5:35

So let's tie this to a concept in engineering Cause that's what these Wednesday episodes are for, and it's in chemical engineering, which is not my background, just so you know. But it's a simple concept called a buffer or a buffer system, and the point of a buffer is to maintain stability in a solution. Just think of a cup of water and you want it's either too acidic or too basic. You probably remember those terms from you know basic chemistry or high school or whatever. Ph balance, those kinds of things. You don't have to understand it, just go with me here. And a buffer works to keep that environment stable, even when external factors could disrupt it. Ah, so it's kind of like a concept of homeostasis in your body, but we're going to go ahead and apply buffer systems to nutrition to your food.

Philip Pape: 6:22

I want you to think of your diet. All the things you eat is this big chemical solution okay, a whole bunch of things that come together and in reality it is right Like chemical compounds, that's molecules. That's what food is made of, and there are a lot of factors that come into play when you eat your food Nutrient absorption, your energy levels, your digestion and your body's trying to keep all these things in balance, and one of the key ingredients that does that for us is a nutritional buffer is fiber. It is fiber and I'm not trying to force this topic in here why is it that people with sufficient fiber seem to have far fewer issues across the board? Across the board not just gut health, but also metabolism and hydration and like they don't seem to need as many supplements and they have better blood work, and like the list goes on and on and you're like this is amazing, what's going on?

Philip Pape: 7:20

Well, fiber, think of fiber as a buffer that keeps you regulated, that keeps you normalized, and there's five ways that this happens that I'm going to touch on today just because the number five is a nice concept, a nice number to grasp. The first way that fiber is a buffer is it stabilizes your nutrient absorption. All right, just like a chemical buffer neutralizes excess acid or excess base and maintains that pH balance. Fiber stabilizes nutrient absorption by slowing down the digestion of carbohydrates. Remember, fiber itself is a macronutrient. It is a, I'll say, a subtype of carb, but we give it very special treatment and so you could almost think of it as its own type of macro. And, in fact, if you're trying to track your fiber, it's really helpful to have a fiber target as its own macro, instead of just trying to get a certain amount of carbs, let's say 300 grams of carbs. Well, if you get 300 grams of carbs and they're all from white rice and they're all from different types of carbs that don't have much fiber, that's going to be a massively different outcome than some of those grams being from fiber. Not a lot of them, but some of them. And that's because they help prevent rapid spikes in blood sugar. They help you maintain a steady flow of energy. It is part of the balance.

Philip Pape: 8:46

When you have a macro balanced meal, it's not just fats, carbs, protein, it's also fiber. And I often tell people, hey, if you do nothing else, just have protein and fiber in every meal. Just have protein and fiber in every meal. Just have protein and fiber every meal. But I almost want to think, I almost want to say, like, start with fiber. I almost feel like fiber is even more important in many, for many people, because proteins kind of quote unquote easy to get to like. It's easy to eventually up your protein and get there. Fiber is a little trickier, especially for those who are picky about their vegetables or not used to preparing their food or cooking or making slightly more involved meals. And it doesn't have to be hard. I'm just pointing that out. So Number one fiber is a balancer.

Philip Pape: 9:29

It prevents spikes in blood sugar. It stabilizes the absorption of your nutrients Okay, it slows down digestion. Number two fiber balances your energy levels, just like a buffer prevents drastic changes in the solution. Fiber prevents drastic swings in energy by ensuring the more gradual release of glucose into the bloodstream, which is again related to what we just talked about, because it slows digestion. But this also helps avoid energy crashes. So if you're having problems with energy, especially in the afternoon, raise your hand right. I'm very prone to this, where, come 3 o'clock, I just want to crash and I'm out of the energy that I had in the morning when I had my caffeine and I'm ready to go and I go work out, you start to have this late day crash. You just may be shy of fiber, and that fiber, which slows down the release of glucose, could help you stretch out your energy from your food for hours and now you feel much better in the afternoon. So think about that, think about the importance of fiber, just for that Okay. Number three is it promotes the stability of your digestion. It promotes equilibrium because it regulates that's right your BMs, your bowel movements. It promotes a healthy gut environment. It prevents things like constipation, irregular digestion and then much worse issues for some people who just don't get nearly enough. All right, we're not even getting into the microbiome health and all that, that's great, but just regular EBMs alone is going to be hugely helpful for how you feel, your digestion, what you're up to doing throughout the day.

Philip Pape: 11:12

Number four is that fiber helps you manage fullness and satiety. Now, this is the big one that I usually throw out, bam first to everyone. I'm like all right, you're in fat loss, you're in a calorie deficit. How do we hack this whole hunger thing? Obviously, you're going to get hunger. Leptin is working against you. Grelin is working against you. Your hormones, your stress hormone, your gut hormones all of these are working against you. You've got so many appetite signals that are triggered.

Philip Pape: 11:39

But if you're, on top of that, eating a bunch of hyperpalatable, processed, calorie dense foods that don't have a lot of nutrients, even if you are eating a decent amount of protein, you're leaving a lot on the table when it comes to managing fullness, because fiber provides bulk to your meals. It fills up those meals. It helps you feel full a lot longer, not just a little bit, but quite a bit. It then leads to the likelihood that you will not overeat, right? Just like a buffer prevents pH from swinging too far in one direction. Now I'm starting to lose it here with this trying to force it into this engineering system. But you get what I'm saying.

Philip Pape: 12:18

Fullness and satiety go way up when you have more fiber, which is why one of the easiest hacks during fat loss is just to load up on vegetables, but don't forget fruit. There's also fruit when we're talking about not trying to get too many calories but trying to add in. Um, satiety, that's where I'm going to start is fruits and vegetables. Trying to add in satiety, that's where I'm going to start is fruits and vegetables. That's why it's so important. And then number five is having more fiber is directly correlated with enhancing your micronutrient intake, just by definition, because fiber rich foods are fruits, vegetables, whole grains, things with lots and lots of nutrients, and these provide a stable, food-based source of micronutrients so that you don't have to rely on supplements, right? And you're also not going to have major fluctuations in nutrient quality or food quality. So food quality goes up. And during fat loss, this is even more important, because that is when you have a higher risk of malnutrition. You have fewer calories coming in, or, for you ladies out there, who just naturally eat down in the 14 to 1600 range, you're constantly at risk of being undernourished or under nutrient. What am I trying to say Having malnutrition. So fiber can be the thing that unlocks that. And you know there's a lot of other benefits to fiber.

Philip Pape: 13:40

I just wanted to kind of to hit on the big ones that have to do with fat loss and have to do with health and nutrition. There are so many more, and I actually have spoken with several really interesting and knowledgeable experts on different aspects of gut health that end up coming back to fiber anyway, and so I'm going to throw some links to those previous episodes in the show notes. You can look for those. Those are interview episodes, because I'm not really an expert in gut health per se. I'm an expert in helping people find out what they're missing with their diet, with their nutrition and training, and doing those things and incorporating those things and then being consistent, knocking it out of the park and finally getting lean, finally getting the fat loss, finally getting the thing that they haven't gotten in years. They've been spinning their wheels because, A they weren't sure what was missing and, b they needed help actually making it happen, being consistent over time and looking at the data to tell them that it worked. Being consistent over time and looking at the data to tell them that it worked Okay.

Philip Pape: 14:43

So now that we understand the importance of fiber from the perspective of its use as a buffer in your body, right? It regulates so many things and makes it easier, makes fat loss easier, improves your health. How much should you be eating? How much fiber should you get? It's pretty simple. The more complicated answer is 14 grams per thousand calories consumed. The easier answer is men maybe 35 grams, women maybe 25 grams or more, and if you're far less than that, you'll know it. You'll know it if you start tracking. It doesn't have to be that tricky. You can simply use a food logging app. That's the easiest way to do it, or you can just manually track it. Either way, you'll know. Okay, I'm getting around 10 a day and I really need to be up at 25. If you're already in the ballpark, you're probably more or less okay.

Philip Pape: 15:29

Everybody has a little bit of a different tolerance. My personal favorite, of course, is Macrofactor. Others, like Chronometer, have decent nutrient tracking. What I like about Macrofactor is when you set up the nutrients explorer, it will automatically set up targets based on your gender and how much you're consuming, and those targets will float with your goal and with your targets, and then, every time you log a food, it'll tell you how many grams of fiber that contributes to the total and then you can look at the total for the day, the total for the last week, for the last three months Really good way to tell. Am I on the right track with my trend? You know, some days you're going to miss, some days you're going to go high, that's fine, it doesn't matter. Just as long as your trend is averaging out to that 25, 30, 35 grams, you're probably good.

Philip Pape: 16:18

As far as how to get more fiber, I mean, like with any food, you have to prioritize it, and I would start right with your first meal of the day, right with your breakfast. How do you get more fiber in there? Oatmeal, berries, chia seeds so many great foods to choose from. Again, they're in my guide If you join my email list and just ask for the fiber guide. So witsandweightscom, slash email and it has a whole list of things. Fiber guide. So witsandweightscom, slash email and it has a whole list of things. One of my clients who just joined last week she's eating a bunch of raspberries.

Philip Pape: 16:46

Raspberry is one of the highest fiber forms of fruit and berries. It's really good, very low calorie, but you can snack on vegetables. You can have whole grain options instead of refined options. You can add beans and lentils to things you enjoy. Fruits with the skin like eat your fruit, don't put it in a smoothie, eat it, get the fiber in there. Experiment with all sorts of fun foods that you may or may not like, but once you prepare them, you know, you roast them, you steam them, you stir fry them. Artichokes, brussel sprouts, avocados, like so many things have fiber that you might not even realize. And then, when you do this, just do it gradually. Don't try to solve it all in one day, just you know. Allow your digestive system to adjust. Make sure to drink plenty of water. Help fiber do its job, right those BMs right. Help it do its job and you'll be golden.

Philip Pape: 17:38

Now for those of you who listened to this episode because of fat loss specifically, it's not just about satiety, remember. More fiber actually allows you to eat more physical volume of food for the same calories. Ah, now think about that, right, fiber-rich foods, they're often less calorie dense, they're more nutrient dense. And so you can eat a huge bowl of strawberries, but you can only eat a half sleeve of Pringles, right, I mean, that's just an extreme example. The other one I like is sweet potato versus a Pop-Tart. They have the same macros, but one is much more processed and calorie dense, so you'll hardly feel like you ate anything. We're talking about the Pop-Tart, in case you were wondering, and then the sweet potato kind of like fills you up, right? Some of the top high satiety foods are also high in fiber. Not just white potatoes, but also an orange, and orange has a lot of fiber and it's also very filling and it's also sweet and delicious. So there we go.

Philip Pape: 18:31

The other cool thing remember how we talked about fiber stabilizing blood sugar and energy. This can lead to improved insulin sensitivity over time and that, combined with strength training, which is the other huge leverved insulin sensitivity over time, and that combined with strength training, which is the other huge lever of insulin sensitivity, is going to make your body then more efficient generally at how it uses its nutrients, and that can often help with fat loss as well. There's so many unintended positive side effects. By adding fiber to your diet, you're not just creating a more stable environment like a buffer, getting it back to our buffer system. You are potentially making all of your fat loss phases easier and more sustainable, and we love that.

Philip Pape: 19:13

So to recap the whole episode, it's basically just, if you do nothing else, you may be short on fiber and adding more fiber can potentially unlock a lot of the things you've been missing.

Philip Pape: 19:20

You may be short on fiber and adding more fiber can potentially unlock a lot of the things you've been missing. And if you found value in today's episode and you want my guide that I mentioned earlier a couple of times to identify the specific ways to add fiber to your diet and construct all these delicious, diverse meals so many foods to choose from just join my email list at witsandweightscom slash email and then reply to the welcome email and say hey, philip, can you send me that fiber guide? Send me that fiber guide. I'll know exactly what you're talking about and I'll send you your free copy, no strings attached. Again, go to witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in the show notes. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember sometimes the small changes, like adding more fiber to your breakfast, can lead to huge results. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How to Eat Healthy When Your Family Doesn't Have the Same Fitness Goals | Ep 209

Are you trying to eat healthy, but your family’s eating habits are making it difficult? Are you constantly torn between reaching your fitness goals and keeping your loved ones happy? If navigating mealtime feels like a struggle between your ambitions and their preferences, you’re not alone.

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the common dilemma of trying to eat healthy when your family doesn’t share the same goals. Inspired by a listener question from Colton Y., Philip shares practical strategies for staying on track with your nutrition while maintaining harmony at home. Whether you’re dealing with a spouse who loves junk food, picky kids, or traditional calorie-laden family recipes, he offers three powerful strategies to help you. You’ll walk away with actionable tips that empower you to pursue your health goals without feeling isolated or causing friction at home.

🤝To get support and ideas from like-minded people who DO want to be healthier and more fit, join my free Wits & Weights Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/witsandweights

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:49 The importance of a supportive community
4:06 Defining “healthy eating” and the personal nature of health journeys
6:52 Strategy 1
10:37 Strategy 2 
14:55 Strategy 3
17:13 Revisiting strategies with specific examples for real-life situations
25:02 The ripple effect of your healthy choices on your family’s behavior
27:49 Outro

Episode summary:

Achieving personal health goals can be challenging, especially when family preferences lean towards junk food and calorie-heavy meals. The latest episode delves into effective strategies to maintain your health objectives while fostering a supportive family environment. This blog post will expand on the key topics discussed in the episode, providing actionable advice to help you navigate mealtime friction without sacrificing family harmony.

The podcast begins by addressing the common dilemma of maintaining healthy eating habits when family members aren't on board. Whether dealing with a partner with a sweet tooth, children who refuse vegetables, or parents clinging to traditional recipes, the episode offers three essential strategies to balance personal health goals with family dynamics.

The first strategy discussed is the importance of leading by example. Rather than trying to change others, focus on your own choices and demonstrate the benefits of healthy eating through your actions and results. By consistently making healthier choices, such as adding extra vegetables, choosing leaner proteins, and adjusting portion sizes, you can subtly influence your family members. Over time, they may begin to notice your progress and feel inspired to adopt healthier habits themselves. The episode emphasizes that the key is to be patient and consistent, as these changes won't happen overnight.

Effective communication is the second strategy highlighted in the episode. Openly discussing your health goals with your family can foster a more supportive environment, even if they do not share the same habits. By explaining your choices and the reasons behind them, you can reduce potential conflicts and increase understanding. The podcast suggests scheduling a family meeting to discuss your health goals, meal planning, and grocery shopping. This approach ensures everyone is on the same page and allows for collaborative problem-solving. Additionally, seeking support from like-minded individuals, such as joining a supportive Facebook group or finding training partners, can provide motivation and practical advice.

The third strategy focuses on finding creative compromises. Instead of trying to overhaul your family's eating habits, look for ways to incorporate healthier options into shared meals. For example, you can use the "build your own" approach, where everyone can customize their plates with a variety of healthy ingredients. This method allows for flexibility and ensures everyone's preferences are acknowledged. The episode also suggests gradually introducing healthier ingredients into family recipes, such as swapping pasta with zucchini noodles or using Greek yogurt instead of sour cream. By making small, incremental changes, you can nudge your family's eating habits in a healthier direction without causing resistance.

The episode also explores the importance of managing your food environment. By keeping tempting, unhealthy foods out of sight and stocking your kitchen with nutritious options, you can make it easier to stick to your health goals. The podcast provides practical tips on portion control and creative meal ideas to help you stay on track. For example, preparing meals in advance and using meal prep containers can simplify the process and reduce the temptation to opt for unhealthy choices.

Throughout the episode, the host emphasizes the importance of staying positive and patient. Changing family habits takes time and persistence, but the long-term benefits are worth the effort. The podcast encourages listeners to focus on their own journey while being respectful of others' choices. By maintaining a positive attitude and leading by example, you can create a ripple effect that influences your family's eating habits over time.

In summary, this episode provides valuable insights and practical strategies to help you achieve your health goals without sacrificing family harmony. By leading by example, communicating effectively, and finding creative compromises, you can inspire healthier habits within your household. Managing your food environment and staying positive and patient are also crucial components of this process. For additional support and motivation, consider joining the Wits and Weights Facebook group, where you can connect with like-minded individuals and share your experiences. Start implementing these strategies today and take the first step toward a balanced, healthier household!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

So you've decided to transform your eating habits. You're aiming for a healthier lifestyle, but there's this one little problem your family isn't on board. Every meal feels like a battle between your goals and their preferences. You're torn between sticking to your plan and keeping the peace at the dinner table. Does that sound familiar to you? Today, we are tackling the dilemma of what to do when your family isn't fully on board with how you eat or even your overall health and fitness goals. You'll learn how to navigate this tricky situation without sacrificing your goals or your relationships. Whether you're dealing with a spouse who loves junk food, kids who refuse vegetables, or parents who insist on traditional, very calorie-laden recipes, this episode will help you find both balance and success. After all, who doesn't want a little bit of harmony in their household? Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:05

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're diving into a topic that hits close to home for many of us, and that is how to eat healthy when your family doesn't. And this was inspired by a really good question from one of our listeners, colton Y. Colton sent me a message. He reached out and asked me this question. I gave him some personalized advice, but I wanted to address it in general for those listening and give you some of my favorite strategies for this that I've helped clients with, and I want to give Colton a shout out for his question. Here's what he asked how do you go about being the only one in your family trying to eat healthy? How do you balance being or eating healthy with a family who isn't interested and I hear this all the time. I get asked about this on podcasts, both for family in general, but also kids, right, it kind of all applies to the same thing. So you're definitely not alone, colton. Many of us face these challenges of trying to balance what we find extremely important with family dynamics where not everybody necessarily finds it as important or even cares. Right, or even, in some cases, they try to sabotage you because they feel threatened. Right, there's a lot of different reasons for it, but today we're going to take a positive lens on this and we're going to explore strategies that will help you stay on track without causing as much friction at home and kind of make it all work without changing other people. Right, if you can inspire other people. That's awesome, but you can't expect to change them. So how can we focus on ourselves to make this successful?

Philip Pape: 2:37

Now, before we dive in, if you are facing any challenges like this and you have questions about balancing your fitness journey with family life or anything like that, I want to invite you to join our free Facebook group. That is a very supportive community where you will find like-minded people who are supportive of your goals, who have similar goals, and you could ask questions, you could share your experiences, you could share your wins, you can get advice from other people, and then you could even post a personal question about your situation in our Friday Ask Philip live session. So I will basically do a Q&A in a live and I will answer your very specific context-based question. So to join our Facebook group, just click the link in the show notes or search for Wits and Weights on Facebook. Pretty simple.

Philip Pape: 3:22

Now let's get into today's topic, which is really how do you eat, quote unquote healthy. Now, healthy is a subjective term, but it's basically how do you eat the way you want for your goals to build muscle, to lose fat, to live a long life, to get the nutrients you need all that stuff when others in your household might not want to eat the same way and they may even have a different opinion or belief on what healthy is for them. They may have health goals and yet still believe that, for example, you have to cut carbs and they just don't eat any carbs and you do because you know it helps building muscle and give you energy. So there are differences we can have and preferences we can have. That don't mean that we're not supporting each other on our goals. It's just that the way we want to get there might differ Different perspectives, different strokes, different folks.

Philip Pape: 4:09

So today we are going to cover this challenge, what it looks like, what do we mean by this? We're going to go over three strategies that I really like. I could definitely give you 10 more, 20 more, as always, but I don't like to overwhelm you. I want to just focus on three that I think you can apply just one of these or all three for maximum effect and maintain harmony in your family, and then how to implement them with some real life situations. So I want to break it up that way and, starting with just this challenge, like what is it and can you relate to this and what it looks like, is this eating differently from your family?

Philip Pape: 4:45

Because food is such a cultural and personal experience, it can feel isolating, and I've felt this many times myself over the years where I had these extreme diets. My wife wasn't really on board, which I couldn't blame her in hindsight. I was kind of the one pushing for something that didn't quite make sense. And you have this tug of war, you have this battle brewing. So it could be between you and your spouse. It could be between you and your kids, who don't want to eat certain foods. The older they are and the less that they've been educated that way, the harder it is. It could be with a roommate as well. It could be when you go to family events with your grandparents who want you to eat their famous baked goods and will feel insulted if you don't. You might face skepticism, you might face teasing, you might face all sorts of resistance from loved ones who just don't understand your choices. And what does this lead to? Stress, stress at mealtimes, temptation to give up on your goals because it's just too much to fight. It can lead to strain on your relationships. I do think this is a really important thing, and so, colton, your question is very pertinent and I wasn't even going to address this anytime soon, so I'm glad you brought it up Now.

Philip Pape: 5:57

You, you, dear listener, you, me, everyone our health journeys are very personal, right? They're very, very personal. Even if you and the person next to you both want to build muscle, both want to lose fat, both want to be healthy, the way you get there is still going to be personal, and so even that can create friction. And, at the end of the day, what are we doing? We are making choices that align with our values and our goals. That is it, and the challenge lies in pursuing those goals while maintaining the positive family dynamics which can often go against them, right? So I'm just laying out what this looks like. You, listening, might have a very specific scenario you're thinking of, and if, by the end of the episode, I don't address that scenario enough for you, please just reach out and send me a message. You send a text message. You can contact me on instagram at wits and weights. All the info is in the episode, in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 6:53

So let's dive into three very powerful strategies to navigate this situation, and then I'm gonna come back to these again just to reinforce them, but with examples. So the first one is it's really all about you leading by example right, focusing on your own choices, owning them, having agency, being empowered and not pressuring others. So, on one hand, you are being the person you aspire to be. You are living into that identity. Who are you? You're that athlete, you're the person who trains, you're the person who supports and fuels your body right, and you therefore make choices for that. You don't cut things out, you don't deprive yourself, you don't feel like you can't do things. When you go to a party, if you choose to have that cake, you choose to have that cake, you have it, or you choose not to, and you say I'm not eating the cake, that's it. That's just my choice and I'm not going to pressure you one way or the other.

Philip Pape: 7:59

You also demonstrate to others how healthy eating and by healthy eating, again, I mean an overall healthy dietary pattern full of whole foods, full of protein, fiber, things that support you you demonstrate why that helps you through your actions, but also through your results, and so, over time this is what I found as well people will start to ask me questions like hey, how are you eating? How is that working for you? What's working for you and you can use that as an opportunity to open up the dialogue once they've asked, and they can choose to do it or not, because all of this stuff takes a little bit of work and it takes change and not everyone is ready for that. But if you've at least demonstrated through your actions and they see you're getting healthier and you're looking more vibrant and you have more energy and you're looking jacked and you're looking great in your clothes, whatever the thing is that can inspire others. And finally, as part of this whole thing, when you think about how you communicate and are open about your journey, you're not doing it to preach or to criticize others' choices, and it is a fine line.

Philip Pape: 9:00

Sometimes I kind of relate to other choices we make, like we homeschool our kids, and let me tell you, people are easily open to criticizing and judging you for doing that. And yet I would never judge someone for sending their kids to public that. And yet I would never judge someone for sending their kids to public school, even though I would love to retort with whatever claim they're making against us teaching our kids at home why it might be 10 times worse sending your kids to public school, in my opinion. In my brain right. We think those things. Same thing with food. Somebody's like well, carbs are going to make you fat. I'm cutting carbs. Why are you doing that? And you want to be defensive and you want to preach about it. That's not going to win any battles at all. It's probably going to make people more stubborn.

Philip Pape: 9:39

There's a famous quote that goes those convinced against their will are of the same opinion. Still, people have to be open to the change. So, talking about it in a way that is about you and not them saying, hey, I chose to do this for this reason. This is why I'm doing this. I love doing this, because I'm very excited about this, because, right Again, when people ask us about our kids and homeschooling, they're like well, are you worried about socialization? And I'm like, oh yeah, I was so worried about that. That's one of the reasons we chose a homeschool, because we get to have our kids with all kids of all ages. They get to be socialized with their parents, who are, in our opinion, their best influence. And I can go on and on and make the argument, but my point is you're not starting with the preaching or the criticizing. You are simply responding to what they say and being excited about it and putting it back into your own experience. So that's leading by example and again I'm going to come back with how to put these into action with some more specifics related to eating in particular.

Philip Pape: 10:39

The second one here is the second strategy is kind of the in-between strategy and that is finding creative compromises. So you're not trying to go all the way and change everybody else. You're not changing even if you're the primary chef of the family or the cook of the family. I say chef kind of like a joke, because many of you may have a to order system where three different people have three different meals, including your kids, and you're making it for them as if it's a restaurant and you could laugh maybe, but there is something there to think about whether that's the best approach for everyone. But when we talk about creative compromises, if you can cook a shared meal, right, the meal that everyone eats at the table, that's a little bit customized so that everyone's preferences are acknowledged and met in some right. So where you might have five foods and Jimmy has two of those foods and your wife has two of those and you have two of those and all the food's getting eaten but not everyone is eating every food. Ah, that's a nice way to compromise, where you're still getting the high protein piece over here or the vegetable over here that maybe not everyone else wants, but you're kind of overlapping with each other at the table, also introducing, let's say, healthier versions or nudging family favorites, things that you have on a regular basis that everyone already likes, and kind of nudging them in a healthier direction, either by simply modifying some of the main ingredients or, I'll say, sneaking in vegetables. But you should probably talk about it, let them know you're doing that. But once they realize, hey, this is not so bad, maybe can do this, it kind of opens up the doors.

Philip Pape: 12:14

And then, of course, planning ahead. We always want to plan ahead when it comes to eating, when it comes to food, when it comes to macros and calories and all that Planning ahead is always going to produce the emotion, the decision fatigue, the gut reactions later on. And so, if you can plan ahead for family gatherings, big meals, big holiday meals, to ensure that you at least have some options in there that align with you. And one great way to do this is say, hey, I'm going to bring a dish or two for you guys, that's two less things that you have to make. Um, I do this all the time with my in-laws, where you know they make. They make a good spread of meat, but let's just say the vegetables are a bit limited. Or there are things like macaroni salad right, people love macaroni salad, but it's pasta with a little bit of veggies and some cream. And then I'll say, hey, I'm going to bring some roasted Brussels sprouts, right? Or I'm going to bring some green beans or a big salad. And so you can get these compromises where you're not forcing anybody to do anything, you're just getting in the foods that you want, right. So that's the second strategy is some sort of compromise that nudges things where you are satisfied and you're able to meet your goals and you're not really changing anyone else. But again, you're showing through your actions maybe you're kind of tying this to the first strategy that some of these things can be tasty and delicious and you might want to try them. Maybe, maybe not, we'll see. So that's the second.

Philip Pape: 13:35

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits and Weights. I started Wits and Weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s, 40s and beyond who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they lift. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential, whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and Weights Physique University, a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized, done-for-you nutrition plan, custom-designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest, leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape: 14:55

The third strategy. Okay, and I was arguing no, I was. What's the word? I was wondering whether I should put this first or last, and I kept it for last, but for many of you, this actually needs to be the very first thing, and this is communicating, needs to be the very first thing, and this is communicating, communicating openly, communicating openly and, as part of that, getting the support you need. So this may or may not apply to your situation. You may not have the relationship where this can happen, but I think almost any relationship just talking through things, even if you're scared about what will happen, is often the best thing you can do. It gets things out in the open.

Philip Pape: 15:33

You have an honest conversation with your loved one, with your family, with your kids, with your extended family, about your health goals and why they're important to you. You're not convincing them, you're not telling them they need to do this. You're not guilt tripping them. You're simply saying here are my here's, why they're important to me and here's why I tend to make some of these choices that you might find weird or be skeptical of or try to pressure me against. This is why I'm doing it. That's it. This is why I'm doing it. This is why I don't drink alcohol. This is why, when you bring your famous Waldorf salad, I have a very small portion. You know Waldorf salad, I have a very small portion. This is why I do it. Okay, I love what you make. It's delicious and I also have these goals that I'm meeting. So this is why I do it.

Philip Pape: 16:17

So you want to have the honest conversation, but also then ask for their support. My friend Carl Carl Berryman. He would say ask for a spot, right, ask for their support, ask for a spot Even if they don't join you in changing their habits. Ask for them to help you out. And we'll talk about some specifics, but one that comes to mind, for example, is just your food environment. If they want to eat what they want to eat, fine, let's just make it less visible. Can you help me out with that? Little things like that? And, of course, if you want to extend this whole support thing to the next level, it would be actually actively finding like-minded people who do share your values and goals. That may not be in your family, right, they may be in our Facebook group, they may be friends, you know other people, your training partner, so that you could get, you can motivate each other, you could get ideas. You could ask them hey, what would you do in this situation? And you know that you're not alone, you're not on an island, all right. So those are the three strategies. Now we're going to revisit them here with some specifics that will help.

Philip Pape: 17:19

Sometimes I don't these days I don't do like a lot of how to and I think in this case I wanted to give you a picture of how these could be applied. There are a million ways to do it and, of course, if you want to know how to apply this to your situation, this is where I encourage you to reach out to me. Schedule a free call there's a link in the show notes or just send me a message and say hey, that was great, I love this idea, but how do I apply that to my situation? X? Xyz.

Philip Pape: 17:45

So let's go back to leading by example. How can you lead by example? One way to do this is adding extra vegetables, choosing leaner proteins, adjusting the portion sizes of your own plate. Now, you're like duh right, listen to what I'm saying. Your wife serves you. Let's say you may clean your plate. Well, what if you instead ate all the lean protein? You asked for more vegetables and then you may not eat as much of the starch because that's your portion size. Now, again, this may not work with everybody. This may offend your wife, whatever, and this is where I think talking through this stuff is important, where you could say, hey, can I have just a smaller portion of that and a larger portion of that, and start to nudge your plate.

Philip Pape: 18:31

When family members then notice this and when they ask about the weird choices you're making, that is where you say you can explain your goals positively, say, yeah, I know, thanks for noticing. Here's what I'm doing. I'm just trying to up my protein and I noticed I wasn't getting enough. My coach is having me track that. You could always use your coach as an excuse, even if it's like you're not paying it for a coach and it's your podcast guy, philip, just just call me your coach. Yeah, my coach asked me to eat more protein, so I'm trying to do this. And hey, if you want to try this food that I'm eating, go for it, like if you're curious about it. It's pretty cool. I put this awesome sauce on it and the spicy rub on it, whatever. And then the other thing is you could share how you're progressing and how you're feeling as you make these changes, again focusing on you and the benefits that you're experiencing. So leading by example can literally start on the plate at the family dinners by choosing the foods that work for you and putting that in combination with having those options available for you without trying to force anyone else to do anything.

Philip Pape: 19:34

The second strategy about creative compromises. What can you do there? All right, for a shared meal I kind of alluded to this earlier but you can use the build your own approach. Okay, yes, it's kind of like a buffet, but it's not like you're providing 20 options. You're setting out some ingredients or a couple sides and a couple meats, something like that. And this is where meal prep can be very helpful, because if you've meal prepped a lot of these things, then you can mix and match throughout the week and so people can customize their plate a bit. Right, this could make it fun. You could have taco night, you could have salad bar, you could have stir fry and yeah, my mind just burped right there because I was in the middle of a non-thought, kind of like a black abyss in my brain for a few seconds, and I'm going to keep this on the recording for you guys, so you could maybe relate. Okay, and then you could, as part of fighting creative compromises, gradually introduce healthier ingredients into family recipes.

Philip Pape: 20:33

Again, I say healthier, I just mean, in relative terms, of things that you want to eat more of. So swapping pasta with zucchini noodles or using Greek yogurt instead of sour cream, I mean some things like that one Greek yogurt you don't even notice, like put it on your taco and don't tell anybody and they're going to be like, ooh, this sour cream is delicious. Now, some people may be more sensitive to that with their taste, but some things are not that different. And then when you go out to eat, suggest restaurants that offer the range of options that suit everyone's preferences not just yours, but others. You know, always be cognizant of what other people want. You're not trying to change them. You're not trying to go somewhere that has, like all the high protein stuff you love but nothing no one else likes. You want to find things that kind of satisfy multiple preferences. It's like my friends who are vegan or vegetarian. I've got to be cognizant that we're not going to necessarily a barbecue place every time where they have all. Their only option is like broccoli slaw. You know we're going to some other restaurants that have more options. So that's what I'm talking about with being creative.

Philip Pape: 21:35

And then the last thing communicating openly and seeking support. Specifically, what can you do here, I would schedule a family meeting or just, hopefully, you talk to your spouse, your wife, your husband on a regular basis I mean, if you're not doing that to begin with, that is a good place to start anyway and then discuss your health goals, just explain why you're making the changes, how it's going to affect your meal planning, where you store food in the house, like in your fridge and cabinets, your grocery shopping. And this is a great opportunity for you to step it up and volunteer to do some things, volunteer to do a chore, volunteer to do the grocery shopping, and you kind of get a two-for-one you are providing support to someone else. They don't have to do that thing and you're getting a little bit of control over the situation to help yourself out. But remember you're not trying to push away or push out other people's preferences as you do that. You're simply trying to add in the things that will support you.

Philip Pape: 22:31

And if someone else is doing the grocery shopping, you say, hey, do you mind if I add some things to the list and if you can give them a little flexibility? Right, don't necessarily say I have to have this exact thing, this exact brand, blah, blah, blah. Now, in some cases, you know, like with my wife, I'm like fair life chocolate milk. You know, right, she knows, just put it on the list, honey, and I'll get it. It's no big deal, but it affects everything. It affects your planning for your meals and all of that. But you have to talk about it.

Philip Pape: 23:00

Also, ask your family for specific ways that they can support you. Can they keep the foods out of sight that are tempting you? Are they open to trying new recipes together? Are they open to it? And then you can make a fun thing of it. You can say, hey, let's look for recipes together, or maybe even bring up ones that look good to you. Say, hey, which of these three things do you like the most? Giving them options. It's like which of these three things would you like the most? And there's gotta be something that people like, even if their preferences are a little bit different.

Philip Pape: 23:32

But the key here, the key here is to focus on your own journey, your own experience, while being respectful of others' choices. Right? That's where you're going to find that balance. And that honestly applies to everything, right? Everything in life. And the cool thing about all this if you do it that way, that is ultimately what is going to have a positive ripple effect on your family. Even if they're not actively participating and making that choice right now, they're going to see those results.

Philip Pape: 24:02

Research has shown that when one family member adopts healthier habits, it can influence the behaviors of others over time, and that's called the halo effect time. And it's that's called the halo effect. Hello, hello. No, that's the halo effect, which means your choices will subtly inspire changes in others, in your family's eating habits, definitely in your kids. I mean, kids are super impressionable when they're young, so why not impress them with good eating? And you may not even realize it that they're doing this because you're just not trying to force it on them. There's a study published in the international journal of behavioral, nutrition and physical activity that found when parents increase their fruit and vegetable consumption, their children are more likely to do the same. So if you're not even doing it yourself, that's going to be a problem. The person who asked the question today was was starting with the premise that they already were making those healthier choices for themselves and their family wasn't quite on board. The person who asked the question today was starting with the premise that they already were making those healthier choices for themselves and their family wasn't quite on board, but the more you do it in front of others and then they see the results, the more they're going to want to do it.

Philip Pape: 25:02

So stay consistent with your habits. Stay consistent with your habits, that's very important and then you're planting the seeds maybe most likely for positive change beyond you, beyond you to your family, to your loved ones. And it's not gonna happen overnight, just like your own journey isn't an overnight thing. It's the commitment to these goals over time and that's the catalyst for the healthier household in the long run. And you hear how positive and the kind of positive energy I have about this. I think that's the way it's most helpful when you're communicating this, as opposed to a negative lens, because that is what people will respond to and they'll know that you're excited about it and there's a reason you're excited for it and you're persevering. When you do this, you're doing the hard thing, but you're sticking with it, even if it feels like you're the only one doing it. I know I with it. Even if it feels like you're the only one doing it, I know, I know it can feel like an island. Know that your actions are making a difference, both for you and, potentially, for your loved ones.

Philip Pape: 26:00

So, as we wrap up, let me just recap the main points. Number one leading by example. Super powerful. You don't create conflict by doing that. You simply do it from your own experience. Number two finding creative compromises. So compromise, you get something, they get something, no one is made unhappy. You're actually adding into the situation so that you can stay true to your goals but still respect family traditions, family preferences. And then third, open communication.

Philip Pape: 26:29

You have to talk about this stuff with people. You just have to talk with people both inside and outside your family, anyone who you interact with regarding food, I mean maybe not the guy at the food truck, right, but the people you eat with, because it's such a deep cultural experience that we put so much pressure on ourselves with and we're not trying to change it all overnight. We just can't. It's so deeply embedded. We just want to create the environment, nudge an environment toward where we can thrive, where you can thrive in your journey and maintain those positive relationships.

Philip Pape: 27:03

And Colton, who wrote in the question, and everyone else who's facing this challenge you're not alone. You're not alone. I mean, this is so common you don't even understand it. It's almost every client of mine has some situation like this in their family, some situation, and there's always a little different flavor to it and we have to attack the problem very specifically for them. But it's absolutely possible, no matter who you are Right, and if the situation is so toxic that there's no way at all, that's an indication of other things that you might want to deal with. So I'm kind of assuming that your loved ones are people you love and they love you, and therefore there's room for compromise, there's room for discussion, there's room for creativity and patience, and then the rewards are going to be there for your health and for your relationships. So two for one, you get two for one there.

Philip Pape: 27:50

All right, if you found value in today's episode, I encourage you to join our free facebook group because that is a great place to connect with others who for sure are going to support you. They for sure are on a similar journey, whether it's food training, and in our group it is even more of a kind of narrow niche of people specifically focused on body composition. They know the importance of muscle for longevity and health. They know the value of carbs and balance and flexibility. Like carbs, protein, fats. They don't exclude things they don't restrict. If you're looking for that environment of people and if you want to be able to ask questions and get very specific answers, join our Facebook group. Link in the show notes. Search for Wits and Weights on Facebook Very easy. Reach out to me anytime and until next time, keep using those wits, keep lifting some weights and remember that your health journey is yours, it's uniquely yours, but you don't have to go it alone. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Diet Soda Is Good For You | Ep 208

Have you heard that diet soda is harmful or causes weight gain? What if we told you it might actually help in your fat loss journey?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives deep into the controversial world of diet soda with his friends Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich from the Working Weights LLC podcast. They’ll explore how these fizzy, zero-calorie drinks can fit into a smart nutrition plan, debunk myths about artificial sweeteners, and examine the surprising health benefits of diet soda. 

Dustin Lambert is a seasoned strength and nutrition coach with over a decade of experience. Dustin specializes in helping clients with metabolic syndrome. As a co-host of the Working Weights LLC podcast, he translates complex nutrition research into practical advice, breaking down health and fitness trends with clarity and humor.

Dwayne Ulrich is the “everyman” co-host of the Working Weights LLC podcast. Dwayne offers a relatable perspective on health and fitness. His diverse background includes roles as an educator, coach, firefighter, police officer, and x-ray technician, making him a valuable voice in the fitness community.

📨To learn more about flexible dieting so you can enjoy whatever you want (including diet soda), join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:30 The scary things about diet soda
6:14 The benefits of diet soda
9:23 Is diet soda cancerous?
13:02 The composition and differences of sweeteners
17:43 Myths about diet soda and weight gain
27:53 Drinking diet soda for enjoyment
32:19 Diet soda and blood sugar
47:48 Diet soda and cardiovascular health
52:28 Caffeine in diet soda
1:00:54 How to connect with Dustin and Dwayne
1:01:40 Outro

Check out these related episodes on the Working Weights LLC podcast:

• Sweet Talk: Decoding the World of Artificial Sweeteners

• The Artificial Dye Debate

• Is coffee bad for your health?

Episode summary:

In this episode, we take a deep dive into the controversial and often misunderstood world of diet soda. Titled "Debunking Myths and Unveiling the Science Behind Diet Soda," this episode brings expert guests Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich to the forefront as we explore the health and science insights of zero-calorie beverages. We challenge the common fears and misconceptions surrounding diet soda, comparing it to other beverages, and provide an evidence-based perspective on its role in weight management and overall health.

Can diet soda really be a healthier choice? This episode aims to provide clarity on this question. The discussion kicks off with an examination of the conventional wisdom that often portrays diet soda in a negative light. We scrutinize the fears of its links to cancer and metabolic issues, presenting robust scientific evidence to debunk these myths. Dwayne Ulrich shares a captivating story about soldiers consuming overheated diet sodas, which led him to investigate the safety of artificial sweeteners like aspartame.

A key theme of the episode is diet soda's place in a balanced lifestyle. The conversation compares diet soda to other common beverages such as alcohol, highlighting the importance of context and relative health risks. This discussion underscores the value of flexible dieting and making incremental dietary improvements rather than adopting an all-or-nothing approach. The potential health benefits of diet soda and sweeteners like aspartame are explored, encouraging evidence-based decisions in nutrition.

The episode also delves into the complex relationship between artificially sweetened beverages and weight management. Findings from a recent randomized control trial suggest that diet sodas can be more effective for weight loss and maintenance than water. The role of gut microbiota, blood sugar, insulin levels, and cardiovascular health are discussed in detail, challenging the myths and misinformation surrounding diet soda.

We challenge the conventional wisdom that diet sodas are detrimental to health. We examine how these zero-calorie beverages might actually aid in fat loss and overall health. Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich provide insights on the ingredients in diet soda, the potential health benefits, and the misconceptions driven by fear-mongering. Dwayne recounts a story about soldiers consuming overheated diet sodas, which led him to investigate the safety of artificial sweeteners.

We explore the polarizing topic of diet soda and its place in a healthy lifestyle. The discussion covers personal preferences and experiences with diet soda, including the reasons why some avoid it due to taste and nutritional considerations. The potential health impacts of diet soda, particularly the classification of aspartame as a probable carcinogen, are scrutinized. The conversation emphasizes the importance of context and relative health risks, advocating for a balanced perspective when considering diet soda consumption.

We dive into the various aspects of artificial and natural sweeteners, focusing on their safety, composition, and consumption limits. Common sweeteners such as aspartame, sucralose, stevia, and neotame are discussed, examining their origins and how they are processed. The perception of these sweeteners as carcinogens and the actual risks involved based on advisable daily intake levels are explored. The episode concludes with practical advice on the consumption of diet drinks and the importance of understanding the ADI to make informed choices.

We then examine the complex relationship between artificially sweetened beverages and weight management. A recent randomized control trial by Joanne Harold and colleagues is discussed, showing that replacing sugar-sweetened beverages with artificially sweetened ones can lead to more effective weight loss and maintenance compared to water. The issue of reverse causality and the role of confounding factors such as family history and individual behaviors are addressed. Additionally, anecdotal evidence and a Harvard study suggesting that certain artificial sweeteners might affect brain signals related to satiety are considered.

Next, we address common concerns about diet soda, specifically whether it causes increased appetite or weight gain. Epidemiological observations and rodent studies suggesting a link between artificial sweeteners and increased calorie consumption are explored. Human randomized control trials indicating that substituting regular soda with diet soda results in weight loss and lower fasting glucose levels are highlighted. The role of gut microbiota and gut-brain signaling in these outcomes is discussed, suggesting that diet soda might influence these mechanisms to promote a slight decrease in calorie intake.

We then focus on the impact of diet sodas on blood sugar, insulin levels, and cardiovascular health. The idea that small amounts of insulin can help reduce glycogen stores in the liver and muscles, potentially leading to lower fasting glucose levels and improved homeostasis, is explored. The effects of artificial sweeteners like sucralose on insulin resistance are considered. The role of diet sodas in weight management and their independent effect on reducing blood pressure are discussed, highlighting the potential cardiovascular benefits of diet sodas as a substitute for sugar-sweetened beverages.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:07

you've heard that diet soda is terrible for you, that it causes cancer, weight gain and metabolic issues. But what if conventional wisdom is not only wrong. What if these cold, fizzy, zero calorie, artificially sweetened beverages could actually help you lose fat and improve your health? Today, we're challenging assumptions to support the seemingly strange concept that, yes, diet soda can actually be a helpful tool. Whether you're battling sugar cravings, trying to create a calorie deficit or simply looking for a guilt-free treat, this episode will give you the nuance and, very possibly, peace of mind you're looking for when it comes to diet soda.

Philip Pape: 0:54

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're diving into the controversial world of diet soda with my friends Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich from the Working Weights LLC podcast. Go, follow it right now. Pause, find it. Follow it. Dustin, who's been on the show before, is a strength and nutrition coach with over a decade of experience specializing in metabolic syndrome and helping countless clients transform their bodies. He's also one of the best guys I know when it comes to unraveling nutrition research.

Philip Pape: 1:27

Dwayne is the everyday ombudsman on their podcast. He's a renaissance man of sorts, having been a high school educator in history and science, a coach for track and field, softball, baseball, volleyball, soccer, everything except the Olympics, a firefighter, police officer and x-ray technician. In short, I think he's ready for anything. Today, we're going to discuss how diet soda can fit into a smart nutrition plan and examine the potential health benefits which might surprise you. We'll also dive into the evidence on artificial sweeteners and diet soda, including fat loss, obesity, insulin, diabetes and more, to give you the full picture, so you can unfollow the fear-mongering fitfluencers and rely instead on evidence to make the best decision for your goals. Dustin Dwayne, welcome to the show. My friends, thank you, thank you.

Dwayne Ulrich: 2:13

Glad to be here, man. Glad to be here, it's an honor.

Philip Pape: 2:16

So I actually want to start with Dwayne, as the every man on BuzzAid Break the ice dude.

Dwayne Ulrich: 2:38

Just get it out of your system, okay, and Dustin's ego is going to be just fine here. So I think I think so. Here's my question for you, super simple what are the some of the scary things that dive off into the ingredients and what the sweeteners were? It kind of freaks me out a little bit.

Dwayne Ulrich: 2:48

The only thing that and my interest in diet sodas came to me when I heard about I believe it was like I think maybe the army or something that guys really wanted a lot of diet Coke. Diet Coke was one of the favorite things that they had. So you know the US shipped diet Coke over to to them on these big pallets but they sat outside you know they're in like, I guess, in Iraq and heat on these Diet Cokes and these guys were drinking these Cokes but they'd been sitting out in the heat and they started getting lethargic and sleepy and I'm like that doesn't sound right to me. So that's when I started taking a deep dive off into what the sweeteners were made of and what they look like. Just listening to chemical contents or maybe about which we're not going to really talk about today, but chemical contents and how they're made kind of freaked me out a little bit. It's weird.

Philip Pape: 3:41

Yeah, yeah, I would agree, man. You know we've heard for years like the fewer ingredients the better, or if it's made in a lab, steer clear. Or if you can't pronounce the ingredient, don't eat it. There's, who is that on instagram. She's hilarious, the nutrition, oh, you guys might know who she is. She will like talk about a food that has all these chemicals and then she'll reveal that it's a banana you know, she'll say like there's all these chemicals and it's actually a banana I can't remember the name, uh gosh.

Philip Pape: 4:07

Yeah, I know you're talking about yeah, like a dietician, pharmacist, whatever, yeah. And then the diet coke in the army thing. I hadn't heard that. What would you say today? So do you drink it today, duane? Do you drink diet soda?

Dwayne Ulrich: 4:17

no, no, not really because it scares me or anything. But okay, man, I just don't like the taste.

Philip Pape: 4:22

You you don't like the taste, kind of chemically to you.

Dwayne Ulrich: 4:24

Well, I just want to say I need to be full disclosure. I drink almost no soft drinks Okay cool. I don't like the taste of the diet cokes. I don't drink a lot of the diet drinks at all, never have and the content of sugar and other soft drinks. It just doesn't fit my nutrition plan.

Philip Pape: 4:46

Sure, yeah. So perfectly valid reason. You don't like it. It doesn't fit for you. Yeah, love it. Dustin, now, if diet soda kills you, why are you comfortable drinking it right now? And what are you drinking?

Dustin Lambert: 4:58

Yeah, that is a good question, there we go.

Dwayne Ulrich: 5:03

Oh man Wait a minute.

Dustin Lambert: 5:05

He's got the classic the silver can, the classic I have the silver can, although I do think that the that dr pepper zero probably tastes the closest to the real thing. However, where I have currently moved to like, a 12 pack of something is insanely expensive. So buying a 24 packpack of Diet Coke so that's the only reason I have Diet Coke is just because of the price, but I do like the Dr Pepper Zero's best.

Philip Pape: 5:32

It is one of the most profitable products on the market. I mean, you think they're just adding a tiny bit of, they're squirting in this tiny bit of syrup into water and they're basically selling water, right? So again why am I not dead? Yeah, why are you not dead? I mean, we know how awful this stuff is. Man, what are you doing yourself? I?

Dustin Lambert: 5:49

guess. Um, I don't know, maybe I'm a superhero.

Philip Pape: 5:52

Yeah, I mean, you are right so your, your gut, just like, just like churns that stuff into gold and you're good, right, pretty much.

Dustin Lambert: 6:03

Pretty much, yes. And then, um, you know, the rest of it is excreted in urine. Through excellence, so through excellence.

Philip Pape: 6:10

Okay, got to bottle that up, all right, so all right. And also quasi seriousness. We don't have to get all serious, can the premise of this, this episode and people are looking at the title, thinking diet soda is good for you. It sounds like clickbait. They're going to turn it around. It's going to be this myth that we're breaking, like no, of course it's terrible for you or it can't be good for you. Can it be good for you? Like, let's start there and then we can break into the details.

Dustin Lambert: 6:35

Yep, so can it be good for you? I think that the answer is yes. It's kind of a weird position to defend here, but yeah, so I'm definitely up for the challenge, looking into it and so just to caveat, the entire podcast here. I don't think it's the best thing that you could be drinking, but I'm going to be the lawyer for diet soda here today and I'm going to make the case that it can be particularly good for you, especially in certain circumstances. So, context matters is what you're saying. Context definitely matters, yeah.

Philip Pape: 7:12

Okay, how would you put it compared to alcohol, on the spectrum of beverages that are, quote unquote, good for you in general or depending on context?

Dustin Lambert: 7:22

On a scale of one to 10, it's probably a 12. Better than alcohol, all right.

Philip Pape: 7:29

Okay, just lay in the relative things for people, because everybody loves to drink alcohol.

Dustin Lambert: 7:36

Yeah, I was going to say so that might jump into the cancer concerns right away. So there are concerns for cancer regarding this stuff. Probably the one sweetener that most people are familiar with would be aspartame, and that was recently added to the IARC list of carcinogens. Now it's in the category of 2B, as in Bravo, which is a probable carcinogen, and it's in there with other things like pumping gas in your car, asian pickled vegetables, like a whole bunch of stuff. And it's in there with other things like pumping gas in your car, asian pickled vegetables, like a whole bunch of stuff. And it's hard to argue against the word probable, like is is stuff probably carcinogen? Yeah, probably.

Dustin Lambert: 8:15

Alcohol, on the other hand, is a definite known carcinogen. I believe that's class one class one. I could be wrong. So there's class one, class two a, class two B, and then you have class three, which is just not at all. Uh, so alcohol is, I believe it's a class one carcinogen. So, on the basis of you know whether it causes cancer or not, like should you drink diet soda instead of an alcoholic beverage? Yeah, absolutely yes.

Philip Pape: 8:45

And that's a. That's a great point. Right there I think we're going to hit on throughout the show. A lot of this is relative. It really is relative.

Philip Pape: 8:51

I was on a show recently with and I'm not going to name names a very established nutrition coach who was asking me about some of these corner cases and things and I said you know, in a flexible diet, in context, these things are okay in small amounts, no big deal If it works for you. What I want to do is take somebody from a 60% ultra-processed standard American diet with probably three cans of regular Coke, to something better than that, at least as step one, and then continue down that line. So this kind of all or nothing like we need to eat clean, we need to cut everything out. How dare you tell your clients that they can drink diet soda? I think it's self-righteous at best and then it's unhelpful at worst. So if someone says okay, why, if there's a probability right in quotes of it being cancers? Why just be safe? Better safe than sorry? Why not just avoid it completely because of that answer?

Dustin Lambert: 9:45

is why just be safe? Better safe than sorry. Why not just avoid it completely because of that? Yeah, you could make that argument and, again, context matters. So it really depends on where you're starting from. So, like you said, you want to take somebody from an ultra-processed diet, where maybe they are consuming sugar-sweetened sodas or other sugar-sweetened beverages, and we want to gradually, over time, get them to something that's more whole food, single ingredient. You're consuming water, tea, stuff like that, so using it throughout that process and then even during fat loss phases. For if you're periodizing your nutrition plan, which you should be, it can be quite helpful in those cases, formalizing this logically wise though to make that argument. Well, if it's probably carcinogenic, why don't we just avoid all the things on the probable carcinogen? Stop driving your car. Stop wearing clothes that have dye in them. Using cell phones? Yeah, stop driving your car. Stop wearing clothes that have dye in them. You know like. Using cell phones. Yeah, stop using cell phones.

Philip Pape: 10:48

Using cell phones or being in the sun. Let's let's be like yep, yep, right, going out in the sun. So, dwayne, what are your thoughts on, from just again, the everyday guy nutrition plan, thinking about where you've come over the years, a lot of it with, with coach Lambie's guidance actually, is there something that you continue to enjoy? That's like a little bit of a vice, where it doesn't matter because what you do today in context is significant improvement from where you were before.

Dwayne Ulrich: 11:15

Man. So I don't know if that's a fair question in this context, because my vice is ice cream, so let's stick to soft drinks.

Philip Pape: 11:25

Well, what about all the ingredients in ice cream? Well, that's another podcast.

Dwayne Ulrich: 11:32

No, but you know, just for me it's like I've tried to like diet drinks and I can drink maybe half of a Coca-Cola or half of a Dr Pepper. Maybe Just after two or three or four sips of it I'm done. But I just wanted to add on to something you guys were talking about, especially in the aspartame thing. I did some research with Coach Lamb and we did a podcast on neotame and a while back we did a whole big old podcast on sweeteners and on the aspartame thing.

Dwayne Ulrich: 12:03

So yeah, it's a known carcinogen but I mean, you'd have to, you have to like consume like 80 something for 150 pound person. You'd have to consume like 80 packets or 17 or 18, you know diet drinks in a day to like even start to be considerate, concerned about it. So it's, it's like the thing you guys were just saying don't go outside, you know, don't breathe air. So as much as I would like to say coming into this podcast, as much as I'd like to say that, oh, yeah, yeah, diet drinks are bad for you. Diet drinks are bad for you. I think that there's a component of consuming diet drinks that can maybe turn against you. But man, I just I can't find a, I can't find a solid reason to say no, you know, or?

Dwayne Ulrich: 12:48

that it's bad, I can't.

Philip Pape: 12:50

Yeah, and we'll. I know what you're alluding to. We'll dive into some of the arguments people make against it. Besides, the artificial sweeteners, we'll definitely go there, but before we get to that, I just want to kind of close out the topic here on, maybe, maybe from Dustin's standpoint as the expert here, having looked at a lot of these and talked about them a lot on his podcast the different sweeteners we have aspartame, we have sucralose, we have stevia, which is not artificial, technically right, and we have neotame, which you guys talked about. What are the differences? What is the history and composition of those that we need to be aware of as we make these decisions?

Dustin Lambert: 13:24

that we need to be aware of as we make these decisions. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think we need to be aware of composition and how they're made and stuff. Yeah, so we have different sweeteners. We have some that are natural. We have some that are synthetic Aspartame I think I probably could make a good case that aspartame is about as unnatural as cheese is because, quite frankly, it's just two amino acids that are bonded together through a process of fermentation. Now it, like it, looks really scary when you look at pictures of the vats and everything and how fermentation is done. However, when you look at how butter is made today and how cheese is made today, uh, you know it don't get me started on prosciutto, man, yeah so you know, like, yeah, so the history of most of these things.

Dustin Lambert: 14:15

As far as, like, maybe stevia and some other stuff, you can go down to the hardware store, like closer home depot or something, and buy a stevia plant right and you you can touch, touch the leaves or taste leaves and they're sweet. So the process of getting sweeteners from plant sources and stuff is just kind of like the same as tea. You kind of boil them in water, boil the leaves or whatever in water, and then through a process of distillation you remove the water from that and you're left with the sweetener Synthetic sweeteners. On the other hand, some of them are made from natural chemicals and some are from man-made natural chemicals. Some of the processes can be scary to think about.

Dustin Lambert: 14:56

In the grand scheme of things, knowing what they're made of or how they're made, I don't think is important, but knowing the upper limits, as Duane alluded to.

Dustin Lambert: 15:05

So we have ADIs on these things. That's the advisable daily intake and that is set really conservatively low from what is known as the no observable adverse effect level. It's usually 100 times lower than that and that usually comes from rodent studies where we give rodents tons and tons and tons of this stuff until we start to see that bad things happen to them, right, and so we say okay, at this amount, which is usually like a milligram per kilogram amount. Per kilogram amount. They'll usually bring that down a hundred fold to give us our adi. So it it could be the case for some of them, um, like sucralose and saccharin, those the adis on those are are a little bit lower. So it might be like five diet sodas a day versus something like aspartame, which is like 17, where you're reaching the ADI. So you do run the possibility of reaching that upper limit where you may start to see some bad things happen. But I think that's the thing to be concerned with what contains?

Philip Pape: 16:14

sucralose.

Dustin Lambert: 16:16

Just tell it so the listener is aware just just remind, just tell it so the listeners aware.

Dwayne Ulrich: 16:25

Um yeah, let me see so sucralose is known as splenda, so anything that has splenda in it.

Philip Pape: 16:27

Yeah, yeah, splenda, splenda yeah, yeah, and I believe most, most like typical diet.

Dustin Lambert: 16:30

Sodas have aspartame, but they also have combinations yeah, ace k would be the other one, or acyl sulfane potassium aculfame potassium.

Philip Pape: 16:39

Is that in the same boat as Splenda or is that more like aspartame in terms of the toxicity level?

Dustin Lambert: 16:44

Well, toxicity, yeah, so it's more like aspartame. It is really a natural thing. So an interesting little tidbit about Ace K is Ace K can actually be used to detect how much urine is in pools, because we don't metabolize it. So every bit of it you excrete, like 99.99999% of the acyl sulfate, and so they've actually done some studies, and an Olympic-sized swimming pool on average contains about 70 gallons of urine.

Stephanie: 17:18

So okay, All right.

Philip Pape: 17:21

Hey, I'm glad you brought the Olympics into this. The transcript will have SEO, but that point about how much is absorbed metabolized is important as well. You guys did that episode on neotame. Thank you for doing that, because that's been coming up more often and that's one of the points you made was the level of absorption is so tiny, you have to account for that yeah.

Philip Pape: 17:44

So these are important. All right, let's move on to Okay. So I think we've established that there's a certain level that is far beyond what a typical human is going to consume, and even if it is five or six cans a day, maybe that's in excess for any particular thing. Anyway, for someone.

Philip Pape: 17:59

I'm guessing right. What about the evidence on? Let's go to the next thing body weight, weight management, because we hear two sides of the equation. We hear, on one hand, these are zero calorie beverages, so of course you're not consuming any calories, so that's a benefit for for intake. And you know, you feel something, you put something in your stomach, whether it's water, diet, soda doesn't have calories. Maybe that helps with weight management. On the other hand, all these claims about insulin being spiked and your sweet tooth is triggered, so now you're going to seek out other foods. Lay it out. What does the evidence say on all of this? And maybe we can break it down and go one by one, starting with just the weight management.

Dustin Lambert: 18:39

Yeah, so on the weight management aspect of it, which kind of ties into whether or not it causes you to consume more sweets or more food in general, those are kind of tied together. So what we're looking at is a discrepancy between experimental trials so people wouldn't know this as RCTs or randomized control trials, something like that and then what we see in epidemiology In randomized control trials, when we take people in and we put them in an experiment and we say, okay, we're going to randomize you guys, this group is going to get water, this group is going to get diet soda and we see what happens. People lose weight and we have trials as long as a year, going on a year long here. Let me see if I can find one. Yeah, so we have one titled non-nutritive sweetened beverages versus water after a 52-week weight management program, a randomized control trial. This is by Joanne Harold and colleagues trial. This is by Joanne Harold and colleagues, released in the Journal of Obesity in 2024. So very recent stuff, yeah. So when we put people through these trials where we're actually randomizing them to one group or the other and we're going to replace sugar-sweetened beverages with either an artificially sweetened beverage or some other beverage normally it's water, we see weight loss. We also see better adherence to weight management, weight loss management right. So people tend to lose more weight in the artificially sweetened beverage trial versus water, and they also are able to maintain more weight loss than the water arm.

Dustin Lambert: 20:17

When we look into epidemiology, what we see is that higher rates of adiposity, obesity, overweight, bmi all that stuff tends to correlate with higher intakes of artificially sweetened beverages, diet sodas We'll just use diet sodas to make everything easier. And so what a lot of the fear mongers, as you alluded to in the beginning. What a lot of them do is they will take the correlation, the association from the epidemiology and just kind of run with it. I say that's the results. Here it is, but we have a discrepancy between the two, and it doesn't exist in every prospective cohort. So we're talking about prospective cohorts here, but a lot of them do. So we have to explain why, we have to account for why this discrepancy exists, and so the reason for that is that in these prospective cohorts, a lot of times what we're missing is a temporal component. So we want to know if X came before Y or if Y became before X.

Dustin Lambert: 21:18

So did people start drinking diet soda before they became overweight and obese? Or does being overweight and obese necessarily lead to people consuming more artificially sweetened beverages or diet sodas in an attempt to gain weight loss or to maintain some amount of weight loss? There are other confounding factors. I hate to use the word confounding, I'd rather use the word mediating or moderating. There's other things like family history of obesity, all this stuff, and when we look at the cohorts and we take the ones that we actually have data for that we can actually make those adjustments right.

Dustin Lambert: 21:55

So reverse causality is what we're looking at. Did diet soda cause obesity or is obesity causing the consumption of diet soda? That would be reverse causality, and we adjust for all of these things. What we find then, is that that association that we're looking at actually goes away. Good meta-analysis here is by Lee and colleagues the relation of change or substitution of low and no-calorie student beverages with cardiometabolic outcomes, a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective cohorts and what they did is they took some cohorts that had the data that they needed to make these adjustments and they adjusted for reverse causality and some of these other things that might confound those results, and what they found is that actually, sugar, sweet or diet sodas are associated with weight loss small amount and weight maintenance, not the other way around.

Philip Pape: 22:54

I love how you split those up too, because, on one hand, we're actually looking at causality, like you said, with the randomized controlled trials, and then, on the other hand, it's just a bunch of data that had been observed and now we have to link it together properly and have it in the right time-based direction. Dwayne, what do you, what do you think about all this? I've heard how you talk with Coach Lambie on your podcast. It's it's so confusing, it's so overwhelming. The average person is not going to be reading a bunch of papers, let alone reading one paper. And they're trusting us, they're trusting people. What are your thoughts on that, this or in general?

Dwayne Ulrich: 23:29

Well, just a couple of things. One of the things that I looked at real quick. I just want to put this out there before I forget about it but I looked at a study that came out of Harvard and so like, for some of the sweeteners and some of the soft drinks, particularly aspartame, had a tendency in animal trials to affect the animal's brain in such a way that it didn't know when to stop eating. Now that sounds like I'm fighting for the other side. I believe that what the data shows us, as Coach Lambie showed it, is that it can help you with the weight loss or at least maintain, and that seems to be the overwhelming deal there. But anecdotally, I see people that in my own life just people that I know that they drink a lot of artificially sweetened soft drinks. For them they maintain. Most of the time they maintain. I know people that are already obese that drink artificial soft drinks. Do they get bigger? Not over my experience, not for as long as I've known some of these people.

Dwayne Ulrich: 24:38

But I do believe there's a responsibility on the individual. Going back to nutrition, because if you just drink that and think that's going to help you lose weight, that may not be really the case for you. But by the same token, if you're tanking on soft drinks that are artificially sweetened, there's a possibility for you to eat more. I see that as a thing, just anecdotally from what I know. And then when I go look at things like the Harvard study, I'm like maybe there is some causality there. It kind of helps you forget when you need to stop eating. I do see that. So what is it? I can't find any reason to tell somebody you shouldn't drink that because you're just going to gain weight. That doesn't make sense. It's just not a sensical conversation or an argument. And when you look at the data like Coach Lambie just went through, yeah, it doesn't really bear out. I mean, yeah, there's a possibility that maybe it affects your brain and you just don't know when to stop eating. I think that's an exception more than it is a rule.

Philip Pape: 25:41

Does that make sense? Yeah, and it makes total sense. And you're hitting on the nuance here. There's so much nuance. What comes to mind for me is if I had a client who we're going to do fat loss, I'm not going to prescribe them Diet Coke, but if they were drinking regular Coke and said I really crave these things, I can't help, I drink them all the time, we'd have the discussion Hmm, have you tried Diet Coke? Like, why don't we try that? Like let's experiment and see, right. And that's one thing that comes to mind. Another is I think we're trying to add the nuance so that people don't think like Diet Coke absolutely causes weight gain, because we see that that's not the case either.

Dwayne Ulrich: 26:21

Correct.

Philip Pape: 26:22

And things are personalized. And you're right, who knows? With the context of these individuals? I grew up in households that there was a lot of Diet Coke consumption and you're right, I see it in obese populations. There's a lot of that and, like Dustin said, there's confounding, mitigating factors going on and maybe they just incorporated it at some point, hoping to lose weight, but nothing else changed. And now you're like, okay, what are we really looking at here? So the data is important, but also the individual. You know history with this.

Dwayne Ulrich: 26:49

Right.

Philip Pape: 26:50

Do you think, dustin, we cover the first piece right of? It probably doesn't cause weight gain and it probably is a helpful tool for a lot of people, especially when substituting something with calories. Just okay, good.

Stephanie: 27:03

We're in agreement, do you?

Dustin Lambert: 27:03

want me to elaborate on that. No, no, no.

Philip Pape: 27:05

That was like. I'm like blabbering, I'm rambling on here.

Stephanie: 27:09

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 28:26

Let's go to the next thing, which is enjoyment. So what about the fact that it tastes sweet drink enjoyment? It has carbonation, all of that stuff. Where does that come in?

Dustin Lambert: 28:36

Yeah, so it does taste sweet. So all of the sweeteners are some multiple thousands of times sweeter than sugar, which allows us to use a lot less of them. As Dwayne alluded to, he doesn't really like the taste of it. So I'm with you. My clients are a little bit different than yours, where I'm dealing with people who are knocking on the doorstep of diabetes and in those cases I am often am prescribing it because many people are drinking, you know, six to 10 sugar sweetened sodas a day, and it's kind like well, hey, listen, like I get it.

Dustin Lambert: 29:13

There's more to this than just the food, right, there's a genetic aspect to it. There's also a psychological aspect to all of this stuff and it's like I, I, I understand it. Uh, so let's start maneuvering our way into, you know, instead of six to eight regular sodas a day to six to eight diet sodas a day, and then again the time. You know, I tell everybody like it doesn't matter where we get in the next six months, what's important is where we get in the next six years. So even if we're consuming a 12 pack of diet soda a day right now, right, as long as there's an exit strategy to get to that point, we need to be there.

Dustin Lambert: 29:49

It does, you know, handle the sweet tooth. When I go through fat loss phases and I'm craving sweet things myself, a diet soda often does alleviate whatever that craving is. You know, the carbonation in it also helps. I think people feel full and that can help during weight loss periods or fat loss phases. You know, you're not always going to outrun the ghrelin monster forever. It's going to catch up with you at some point.

Dustin Lambert: 30:15

So again, nuance to all of this stuff. But yeah, it can cure. Not cure, but it can help alleviate sweet tooth cravings. It can help with that psychological aspect of you. Know, I've been drinking soda for a while now and I, I love them. I don't want to give them up, uh. So okay, well, let's just let's swap over to this that reduces the amount of sugar intake that that my clients are seeing, which brings their fasting glucose down, their hba1c down, all that stuff. So yeah, for the everyday person, um, you know, if you're, if you're looking to maybe reduce intake of certain foods that are sweet or whatever the case may be, diet, soda certainly can help in that aspect.

Philip Pape: 31:01

Yeah, I agree. I'm actually in fat loss again now and I typically will have a can of diet soda almost once every day during fat loss, just in the afternoon, like I'm doing right now, because it it fits in that window, it hydrates me and it tastes good. I mean, I don't see anything wrong with it and that's kind of what we're here to to give people that peace of mind of it's okay, it's okay, it's like. You know what do you think, duane?

Dwayne Ulrich: 31:25

yeah, oh I, I completely agree. It's like um, yeah, I for one thing. It's like the long term is is thinking it in short term. You have to think in a longer term. We all like to change things right away. We're in a hurry, I've got to have it now. I've got to change right now. I've got to lose all this weight right now. I've got to stop being a diabetic today. It's a process. It's a process compared to sugar-sweetened soft drinks, what they call SSB, sugar-sweetened beverages. Man, the amount of sugar in a regular soda water, man, I'm just kind of sorry I started reading that, but it's staggering.

Philip Pape: 32:08

So, yeah, I think the artificially sweetened soft drinks, it's a definite plus, it's a definite plus, and I'll tell you a few times you mentioned the amount of sugar A couple times. I might have gone and asked for a fountain soda at a place and they gave me the sweetened version of it instead of the diet, and usually I can tell that they're really good. With the Coke Zeros and everything, it almost tastes the same. So I'm drinking it and I'm getting that kind of sweet smacking kind of taste, but I just finish it thinking in my head like no, no, they gave me the diet. And then I come to find they didn't and I'm like, okay, that's 300 calories right there, like I just make sure to track it sometimes you can almost feel it feels like fur on your teeth.

Dwayne Ulrich: 32:45

What was that?

Philip Pape: 32:47

yeah, of course like you said, some people don't like the artificial sweetener and you don't have to drink this stuff. We're not saying it and there could be haters and trolls on this. In fact, I welcome you guys who are like how dare you tell us to drink any diet soda, eat any seed oils, blah, blah, blah. We love it. Bring it on. So, dustin, did we address the part about whether it causes you to eat more? I mean, we address that studies show it doesn't cause weight gain, but what about this idea that it both spikes your blood sugar but and or causes you to eat more? Yeah, okay, so there are two different things. Let's start with the eat more thing.

Dustin Lambert: 33:22

Yeah, the eat more thing. Okay, um, so, yeah. So if we're looking at the epidemiology and we would see that, um, higher rates of of overweight and obesity correlate with higher consumption of diet sodas, and then we also might just observe people in our own lives who have been overweight their whole life and they always drink diet soda and we're like, well, that's not helping out at all. So I can see where that idea comes from, comes from. And then, as Duane alluded to, we certainly do have rodent studies where they give them artificial sweeteners and it leads to an increase in spontaneous consumption of calories, hitting on the rodent stuff. And this goes into gut microbiome research and cancer research as well. So there have been several papers. I brought up a couple of them in our artificial food coloring episodes and then there was one that came out very, very recently in dealing with cancer. I believe I don't have that one pulled up, but Dr Allo, dr Muhammad Allo, he brought that up on Twitter what we see from rodent research regarding translation to human outcomes. So if we just look at the amount of rodent research where we might be trying to develop a drug or something to treat human disease, the amount of drugs that we'd start testing in rodents and even psychological outcomes and even cancer outcomes. That actually makes it to first phase clinical human trials and then even less once we get to FDA. Approval of things translates to about 5%. So 95% of the rodent research that's out there does not translate to human outcomes, okay, okay.

Dustin Lambert: 35:09

So if we have a rodent study that shows we give rodents this sweetener and it spontaneously increases their calorie consumption, we might look at a few things how much of it are they giving? You know, what is the length of exposure that they're allowed to have, all these things. But then the other aspect is that, well, it probably doesn't translate very well to human outcomes because we have human randomized control trials where we give people diet soda and they don't eat more, they eat less. So just substituting and a lot of these trials that we're talking about. We're talking about a substitution of two beverages a day, so two cans.

Dustin Lambert: 35:55

Substitution of two beverages a day, so two cans. 12 ounce cans of soda per day is the is, uh, what most of these trials shoot for with a minimum of three sodas per week. So even at a minimum of three sodas per week, we are seeing spontaneous weight loss. So whatever is happening there as far as the impact that these might have on brain regulation or gut regulation is leading people to eat less. It's not the other way around, right, because when we actually test it, what happens when we give people diet soda and we're actually measuring these outcomes? People lose weight. They don't gain weight.

Philip Pape: 36:28

So do you think it simply comes down to energy balance at the end of the day here and that there are no other aspects of the in our guts or gut? So also all that?

Dustin Lambert: 36:55

stuff. And then we also know that gut microbiota or um, what's the term? I'm looking here for laura the um, no, the whole thing. So I saw our entire digestive tract right. So there's all stuff going on and we have a gut brain and we have drugs out now that stimulate hormones that are produced in response to things that happen in our gut and that signals our brain. So I certainly think that there's something happening there.

Dustin Lambert: 37:23

We do know that there are changes that happen to certain microbiota or flora within our gut when we consume. A lot of people take that as being negative. However, when we look at the outcomes, I would have to say that those changes have to be a positive effect, because we're seeing the outcomes that we want to see. We're seeing people lose weight, we're seeing lower fasting glucose numbers. Long-term HbA1c comes down a little bit, but a lot of those trials just aren't long enough to notice a change there or they're not looking at it.

Dustin Lambert: 37:58

Yeah, so so is it? Does it just come down to calories, like is it just that I'm replacing 150 calories with zero calories? I don't think so, uh, because the amount of weight loss that we're seeing would lead us to believe a little bit more. I think that whatever's happening to the changes in the gut and the changes whatever may be happening in response to that in the brain is spontaneously causing people to eat just a little bit less. It's not huge, all right it's. This isn't magical and it's not going to get. It's not the staff of Moses here. So yeah, but I think that there is something else to it.

Philip Pape: 38:32

That's an interesting one, cause we've now we're we're almost taking the benefit even that one step further. The gut health thing is talked about more often now as as a negative and, like you said, maybe there's something else going on. If we use the transitive property right, like if you do this and then on this side, it results in weight loss and we know gut health and cognitive function, whatever also affects that weight loss, beyond what energy balance would explain. Therefore, the diet soda is doing something. I mean I, I get that logic. Yeah, we have the comparison to water.

Dustin Lambert: 39:02

So we have zero calorie versus zero calorie and in the diet soda arms, they lose more weight. So there has to be something that's happening there that's causing just a little bit more of a calorie deficit, which we can only assume is people are eating less.

Philip Pape: 39:20

Could it be the satiety effects of it? Sure, have they compared carbonated pure water as?

Dustin Lambert: 39:27

well to soda, yep, yep. So when we compare the diet soda to the water arms, people are allowed to have carbonated beverages and a lot of these trials are free living trials. It's not a metabolic ward study. A lot of these are free living right, so people are just at home doing stuff. So what happens when we give people diet soda and they're at home and they're not advised to try to lose weight and we're looking at a carbonated, artificially sweetened beverage? And a lot of these are not just diet soda, but it's also the waters that you can get, the flavored and sweetened waters that are zero calorie, that are carbonated. But in the water arms they also are allowed to have carbonated water. So it's not just an effect of well, maybe this one has carbonation, this one's plain water. There's something more there.

Philip Pape: 40:15

And could it be just psychological hunger? Because I feel like even in my own personal experience, it takes away the craving. It kind of rubs that itch and therefore you don't eat. And it's as simple as that. What do you think it could be? Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Well, whatever it is for an individual, they can they can look at the data and see what happens.

Dwayne Ulrich: 40:33

And so I agree, I agree with that. I read some studies about, uh, the carbonated water also kind of having the same effect. I agree there's something more about the diet soda as opposed to just carbonated water. But carbonated water has a more, I think, a more intense effect than just plain water itself. And I want to go back to the rodent thing I said earlier because I don't want people to misunderstand about, you know, certain sweeteners causing you know animal trials to where they didn't know when to stop eating. The thing Coach Lambie said about when we're using rodent studies, a lot of times what they're pushing for is they're just pushing for the maximum amount. When do we get an adverse effect? So I think we were doing a study on neotame on our podcast. You know when do we get an adverse effect? So I think we were doing a study on neotame on our podcast, and so they gave the animal subject. Like what, coach? Was it 7,000 times what the normal would be?

Dustin Lambert: 41:31

That one was just a petri dish.

Dwayne Ulrich: 41:32

Oh well, petri dish.

Dustin Lambert: 41:34

Oh no, no, I just referenced stuff in the past that we looked at.

Dwayne Ulrich: 41:39

Yeah, but it's just massive. But they give massive amounts to. I mean, just look at the. We talked earlier about aspartame. Well, good lands, you've got to drink 17, 18 sodas before there's any adverse effects. I don't want people to be misled.

Dustin Lambert: 41:54

Not even that. That's just to reach the ADI.

Dwayne Ulrich: 41:56

Yeah and I don't want people to be misled by that that that's, oh my gosh, something bad's going to happen. So there's obviously something happening in the gut biome that you know. Something's happening down there.

Philip Pape: 42:07

I don't really know what it is, but I think it's effective the longevity guys pushing low protein based on rats and I just I drew the line there. I'm like no, no, we're not doing that. Okay, let's talk about insulin response. Okay, I think that's the other one here right, cause you do talk about prescribing this for diabetics as a alternative to sweeters. But let's take people who maybe weren't drinking diet soda at all. Maybe in randomized controlled trials they've looked at this. You add it in. Does it affect your blood sugar?

Dustin Lambert: 42:46

Yes, it affects blood sugar. So we can speak to the fear mongers because I think this is another criticism that people have about it is that, well, this thing is sweet, right, and when you taste it, your brain thinks it's receiving sugar, and that stimulates the production of insulin and that leads to insulin resistance. Okay, so, not even just going into trials, but if we just logic this argument out here, okay, so let's just say, for the sake of argument, that that's happening right. As soon as it hits your taste bud, your brain goes ah, there's sugar release, insulin. Well, number one. That's not how insulin is released. Again, let's just say that it is all right. So let's say that it's a big bolus of insulin, right. So your brain thinks that you're getting whatever seven teaspoons of sugar, and so it signals to your pancreas to release the amount of insulin to dispose of seven teaspoons of sugar.

Dustin Lambert: 43:49

If I woke up first thing in the morning without eating anything and I drank this diet soda here and my pancreas released enough insulin to dispose of the amount of sugar that would be in a sugar-sweetened soda, I would go into hypoglycemic shock, right, it would induce vomiting, it would induce nausea, I would probably lose my vision and I would most likely become unconscious. Now that's not happening because I haven't eaten anything today and I, this monster, and I am also drinking this Diet Coke, so that's not happening. Okay, so it's not a large bolus of insulin. Maybe it's a small one, right? Maybe it's a little bit. Okay, fine, let's say that that's happening.

Dustin Lambert: 44:34

If you are of the position which most of them are, that high blood sugar is bad and you need to reduce that, you should be having as little amount of stored glucose in your liver and your muscles and everything as glycogen as possible. What would small amounts of insulin do? If I just had this diet soda and I didn't eat anything and I had high blood sugar and I had fatty liver maybe and fatty liver can come from excess glycogen within the liver Well, these small amounts of liver would reduce my homeostatic blood sugar, my blood glucose level, fasting glucose levels, just a little bit, and that reduction would signal glucagon to tell my liver that blood sugar has come down. Please release some glucose into the bloodstream to bring us back to homeostasis. If I did that several times a day over the course of weeks and months, what I would end up with is a liver with lower glycogen stores and also lower glycogen stores in my muscle and also a lower fasting glucose level. So if that were happening, I'm not really sure how you could make the case that that's a bad thing, right? So that's one.

Dustin Lambert: 45:52

Number two it doesn't stimulate insulin. Okay, so the way insulin is stimulated is that your pancreas has a large artery runs right through it and it pulls blood out of that artery to sense how much glucose is floating around in your bloodstream and that's how it knows how much insulin right, and also receives some signals from the liver. The liver and the pancreas work together to keep blood sugar levels stable. That's why type 1 diabetics have such issues. Also type 2 diabetics, right, because at some point they start losing control of that thing and you no longer have homeostasis. You start dipping into dangerously low levels or dangerously high levels.

Dustin Lambert: 46:32

People love social media. There are tons and tons of videos of people out there wearing a CGM and will drink a diet soda and show you it does absolutely nothing. It does nothing, so they don't stimulate insulin. Now let me put the caveat. Okay, so I will say as far as like an insulin resistance aspect goes, I have seen some stuff on sucralose that would give me pause in recommending that, right? So that's the Splenda. So yeah, I have seen some stuff. So there is another guy on YouTube and he did a pretty good three or four week look into sucralose and looking at insulin resistance and there's something there that gives me pause. I think maybe if you were to have a little bit of that, so one packet of it or something in your tea for lunch, probably not going to be a big deal, but that would be the only one.

Philip Pape: 47:23

All right, yeah, just want to put that to bed for people Again. If you just look anecdotally and, like you said, logically follow it through, people aren't getting, you know, insulin shock, as if they just injected themselves on a regular basis Because guess what? A lot of people are drinking them while they're fasting, so you would see this often. So, man, we'll take care of those intermittent fasters right now.

Dwayne Ulrich: 47:48

Just feed them a bunch of diet soda.

Philip Pape: 47:49

Okay, so that's good. So we're ticking off all the boxes here, I think. And we sort of alluded to how it of course helps with weight management, it helps with diabetes. Is there anything in the realm of cardiovascular disease stroke we wanted to cover? I mean specifically because obviously those risks also come down in concert with these other risks coming down.

Dustin Lambert: 48:07

Yeah, those risks come down. So if you substitute some sugar-sweetened sodas with artificially sweetened sodas, you're drinking diet sodas now and you managed to lose some weight. Obviously you're dealing with fewer carbohydrates coming in. That's going to have an effect on blood glucose. Let's put all of that aside and look at where we have adjusted for weight loss and other things. Do diet sodas have an impact in and of themselves on certain risk factors for cardiovascular disease, diabetes and stuff In terms of diabetes? I don't think that in and of itself it has anything that really has to do with lowering your carbohydrate intake and also the weight loss. Now there is an effect on blood pressure that's seen independent of weight loss, independent of anything else, and when we compare diet soda to water again, what we end up seeing is a reduction of about 2.5, about 2.6 millimeters of mercury systolic. So that's the top number. That's independent of weight loss alone. We did an episode on coffee not too long ago and we saw kind of a similar effect there.

Philip Pape: 49:18

So hold on these. Caffeine containing soda. Caffeine containing soda yeah, okay, not diet, this is not with caffeine free.

Dustin Lambert: 49:26

Right, Not caffeine free. Yeah, so it would be just low calorie, no calorie. Sweetened beverages in general I'm just using the word diet soda to be the simple here right, so they may contain caffeine and they may not. But overall, when meta-analyzed, what we see is that artificial sweetened beverages tend to lower blood pressure just a little bit more than water when we substitute sugar sweetened beverages. So it's about two and a half millimeters of mercury systolic top number.

Dustin Lambert: 49:58

It's estimated by the American Heart Association that a three millimeter of mercury reduction in systolic blood pressure on an individual basis is clinically meaningful. So on itself all alone it almost gets you to that clinically meaningful reduction. Right, If you manage to lose weight now, you're in a clinically meaningful reduction. So that reduces your risk of coronary heart disease and it also reduces your risk of stroke. On a national level, on a population level, 5.5 millimeters of mercury, that would lead to a 15% reduction in coronary heart disease and a 27% reduction in stroke. So that's at 5.5.

Dustin Lambert: 50:50

So if we do some quick math here, we go down to 2.5, 2.6, what we're looking at on a nationwide level would be somewhere around a 6% or 7% reduction in coronary heart disease incident, Not risk incidence of coronary heart disease and somewhere around a 12% reduction in stroke incidence. So coronary heart disease, we're talking about stuff like heart attacks and other things like sudden heart failure, pectoral angina, all that stuff. There's about 800,000 people who have heart attacks every year and there's about 800,000 people who have strokes every year. What that results to if this were to be the case, if we could get a nationwide reduction of 2.5 millimeters of mercury systolic blood pressure, that would be about 40,000 fewer heart attacks every year and about 100,000 fewer strokes.

Philip Pape: 51:42

So, dwayne, you're going to start drinking diet soda now, right, not only do we say it's not bad for you, it's good for you, it's good for you. We got some diet root beer in the fridge right now the root beer is caffeine free, so just make sure you pick the time of day you want it.

Dwayne Ulrich: 51:57

Oh, I drink my coffee. I do drink coffee.

Philip Pape: 52:00

Yeah, yeah, ah, it's so fascinating. Right With the blood pressure, is there a concurrent reduction in blood lipids like LDL? Do they have data on that, because that's again another factor for CBD.

Dustin Lambert: 52:12

Yeah, so there is reduction in blood lipids. I think that probably has more to do with the weight loss than anything.

Philip Pape: 52:18

Wow, crazy. So yeah, seriously, we are delivering on the promise of this episode so far. I think that there is a case that it can be good in some cases for certain people, in certain contexts. I'm going to keep saying that. Oh, speaking of coffee, you guys drink cryo brew. You ever tried that? It's a brewed coffee. So I mean brewed chocolate.

Dustin Lambert: 52:39

It's brewed, chocolate brewed oh, that's my alley here.

Philip Pape: 52:41

Yes, yeah, check it out, attention, check it out. So it's got almost no caffeine. So for me it's like having coffee at night. You know, I can have that cup of coffee at night again during fat loss. It's kind of like diet soda it itches, the flavor and the craving and the having something in your mouth, but with the more um, the bitterness and like thickness of coffee, of a coffee.

Philip Pape: 53:00

Yeah, I'm a foodie, if you couldn't tell, I could. So, speaking of so, where does caffeine fit into all this? And that's why I alluded to it, because that's a strong factor, I imagine, depending on what you're studying.

Dustin Lambert: 53:13

Yeah, so the caffeine? So you know caffeine levels vary between diet sodas. So what I found between the diet soda stuff and the coffee stuff is that caffeine is a diuretic, so it will cause you to pee more. However, diet sodas are 95% water. We don't see dehydration happening from consumption of diet soda or coffee. That's not happening, and so, despite caffeine being a diuretic, it just may be that you're drinking enough water along with it to counteract that effect. Duane, did you look into the sodium excretion?

Dwayne Ulrich: 53:51

yeah, it's. It's kind of. It's kind of just um, and it's kind of like social media fodder, just like, uh, being dehydrated because you drink too much caffeine or you eat too much coffee. The same thing with diet drinks. It's just social media fodder. It's like, oh my gosh, you're going to deplete your potassium levels because you're going to start offloading all this stuff because it's diuretic. We saw in our podcast on caffeine that it doesn't hold true to the data.

Dustin Lambert: 54:22

It doesn't, so I don't think that that's an issue at all, I think there may be some effect of increased sodium excretion to go along with it. So, in terms of the coffee, there was a trial that we looked at where they did measure sodium excretion and it was higher in the coffee group than the water group, is higher in the coffee group than the water group. So the fact that we see blood pressure reductions independent of weight loss, from from artificial, artificially suited beverages that may have caffeine, I think there may be a case to be made there too that you're having an increased sodium excretion from that which is going to put the hydration status, but also with the blood pressure thing yeah, that's and that's a positive.

Dwayne Ulrich: 54:58

But again, going back to what I was saying is like, as far as other base minerals in your body, you're not going to deplete things like potassium, magnesium and stuff like that. There is a sodium offload. That is a boost. I mean that's a plus. But I was just saying overall elements in your body. It's just you're not going to offload a bunch of stuff. That's going to hurt you.

Philip Pape: 55:18

Go eat a banana, go eat a banana.

Dwayne Ulrich: 55:20

Absolutely not going to offload a bunch of stuff to hurt you Go eat a banana?

Philip Pape: 55:23

Go eat a banana, Absolutely Actually this.

Philip Pape: 55:28

Then sodium comes up as a thing too because the soda I'm drinking has 60 milligrams and some diet sodas have quite a bit more 200, 200 something milligrams. And I know, coach Lamba, you're big into not over subscribing to the fact that we're under salted. Right, there's this narrative that we're all under salted and maybe some people have too much salt and it's causing high blood pressure. It's interesting because there is a lot of salt. I guess I don't know Relative. Is it a decent amount of sodium that we should be worried about? It sounds like it reduces your blood pressure, so maybe not.

Dustin Lambert: 55:56

Is there a lot of sodium in the diet sodas? Yes, yes, yeah. So it varies from one to the. You know, I think diet coke has like 55 milligrams of sodium, 40 milligrams of sodium, so so it varies. Like, am I concerned about somebody having a diet soda with 40 milligrams of sodium three or four times a day? Not really, you know. So we're looking to stay under 2300 for the day. You know, if you have three or four diet cokes, you know we're at 200, like there's plenty left to salt your food.

Philip Pape: 56:24

All right, all right. Um, there's one other benefit I thought of, and that is a cavity cavity risk.

Dwayne Ulrich: 56:30

Oh yeah.

Philip Pape: 56:31

Which.

Dwayne Ulrich: 56:32

I took a deep doubt on this. I just oh, did you.

Philip Pape: 56:34

Okay.

Dwayne Ulrich: 56:35

Yeah, I found it fascinating. So I think we just need, first of all, we need to take a look at sugar sweetened beverages first. It's just like your mama said, that stuff's going to rot your teeth out. So for a child, there's a term for it. I just can't remember what it is Primary dentin, I can't remember.

Dwayne Ulrich: 56:54

Anyway, for a child, sugar sweetened beverages are just caustic, just tear the child's teeth up. If they drink a little bit of a soda man, you need to wash those teeth out and brush them. And then in your teens, your young adulthood, it doesn't have quite an effect. An older person I'm still talking about sugar-sweetened beverages so for an older person, you don't have the cavity issue but you have an erosion. It increases erosion in your teeth.

Dwayne Ulrich: 57:25

But now going to the artificially sweetened ones, so there's a thing that happens is that I think it's called karyogenic is that when your body, when you drink a sugar sweetened beverage, the sugars break down into an acid and so that's what's tearing up the enamel in your teeth. So artificially sweetened beverages aren't karyogenic, so your body doesn't take that stuff and generate an acid. So there's really not much impact on your teeth, even on what's called a primary dentinate I think it is, and middle age, like so early teens to 20-something and even adults. There's not that much of an impact there. The only impact that I found in studies that I was looking at was that artificial sweeteners are used a lot on foods or treats, especially that are highly acidic, and so whatever you're going to get is probably going to be coming from a higher acidic type food or treat or sweets or whatever Gosh. The first thing that comes to my mind is those nasty little like the worms and the.

Philip Pape: 58:33

The gummy worms.

Dwayne Ulrich: 58:33

Put the sugar on them, sour patch gummy worms, sour patch kids, those, I hate those things. But so you know, if you find those with artificial sweeteners, you know it's not the sweetener that's tearing you up, it's going to be just the acid from the food. Sure, sure. So it's a plus.

Philip Pape: 58:50

I mean, all right, hey, we're busting this stuff in right, can you have the sugar sweetened beverages? Pshe, phosphoric acid is an ingredient in soda and that might be a cool episode for you guys to do, because that's another one that has been fear mongered with like they'll show teeth in a vat of phosphoric acid and it's like rotting away, and then you look at the amount that have to be exposed to for long periods of time, far beyond just what your saliva rinses from you and hopefully you brush your teeth.

Philip Pape: 59:19

It's a non-concern, but it's interesting how the acidity from the sugar breaking down is more the concern, and then the artificial sweetener tends to solve that problem via substitution. So now we're just finding so many cool things here today. So, guys, as we wrap up, I think we've addressed the general premise here about whether diet soda is harmful or not, and in what context and what the evidence is, and we're kind of scratching the surface, because I realize there's a lot out there. Is there one thing that we didn't cover that you wish I had brought up?

Dustin Lambert: 59:51

Yeah On whether or not these things are banned in Europe. Wow.

Dwayne Ulrich: 59:55

Didn't even think of that.

Philip Pape: 59:56

Okay, that's a good one, let's go there.

Dustin Lambert: 59:59

Yeah, so that's a common criticism on a line by the fear mongers, and you know the answer is, quite frankly, no. So what people are missing about things that are supposedly banned in Europe? So they'll say a lot of things are banned in Europe. Bha, bht I think aspartame was the latest one. Europe doesn't use the word. They have an e-designation for food additives. So if you want to go and look at it, you can just Google European Food Safety Authority food additive list and you'll find e-designations for things. Aspartame is under the e-designation E951. Ak is E950. Sucralose is E955. Yeah, so these things aren't banned in Europe. The people that you're listening to just don't know anything. There we go.

Philip Pape: 1:00:48

Anything to add to that, Dwayne?

Dwayne Ulrich: 1:00:51

No, but well, I will add this there are some plant extracts that are banned in Europe as well, Like cannabis. Cannabis good Maybe that's a podcast for one of us to do. Yeah, I'm with coach on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 1:01:09

I mean, I tend to my skepticism. Hairs go way up when you say Europe or California.

Dustin Lambert: 1:01:14

So yeah, same difference man.

Philip Pape: 1:01:16

Same difference.

Philip Pape: 1:01:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, man Cool. So your friends? Yeah, yeah, all right, man Cool. So this has been awesome. I think we had fun. I think I learned a few things that I didn't know, which is always real, real gold. When I have these conversations, I do want to ask you where you want people to find, you guys. But since, for sure, you have a podcast, the working way to LLC podcast, is there a specific episode that I'm thinking the artificial sweetener one, but maybe another one that you want to send them to and we can throw it in the show notes?

Dustin Lambert: 1:01:40

The artificial sweetener one would probably be good. It ties right into this. And then there is the artificial food dyes. I think would be another excellent one for people to listen to, to get a better idea on how to kind of understand the research regarding these food additives. Cool.

Philip Pape: 1:01:56

Yeah, that's a good one. Especially, people talk about protein powders, for example, which have sometimes have the dyes in them and they're consuming lots of them, so we'll I'll include a couple of those in there.

Dwayne Ulrich: 1:02:06

I'm going to point them towards caffeine, the coffee thing.

Philip Pape: 1:02:08

The coffee one. Yeah, yeah, all right. So we're going to have a nice library of links in here Point people to. Is there anything else you want to send them to IG or anything else?

Dustin Lambert: 1:02:22

Not really. I am on Instagram, but not terribly. I'm just not too terribly active on social media, so the podcast is probably the best way, sounds good, dwayne, same thing.

Philip Pape: 1:02:28

Just go to the podcast.

Dwayne Ulrich: 1:02:29

Yeah, go to the podcast, Absolutely.

Philip Pape: 1:02:31

All right, man. Well, thanks guys for coming on. We threw this together last minute this week and it came together really nicely and I hope people learned a ton. That's the goal is to learn to be curious, to apply this to themselves, to ask questions, don't just assume that what you see on Instagram is correct and that's the way we do it. Thanks for coming on, guys. Yeah.

Dwayne Ulrich: 1:02:49

Good deal.

Philip Pape: 1:02:50

Yeah, thanks for having us Thanks a lot.

How Your Spaces Are Sabotaging Your Fat Loss (The 6S Method) | Ep 207

Are your personal spaces getting in the way of consistency with your nutrition or training?

Learn about how the 6S method from engineering can make it much easier to achieve your goals. You can transform your kitchen and gym into powerful allies by reducing friction. It's about making small yet impactful changes.

What is 6S?

1. Sort

2. Set in order

3. Shine

4. Standardize

5. Sustain

6. Safety

Listen to the episode for a definition and some examples for each!

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

Main Takeaways:

• Your environment plays a crucial role in your fat loss success, often more than willpower alone.

• The 6S method (Sort, Set in Order, Shine, Standardize, Sustain, Safety) can be applied to optimize your spaces for fat loss, making healthy choices easier and more consistent.

• Small, strategic changes to your environment can lead to big improvements in consistency and results by reducing decision fatigue.

Episode summary:

Can your environment be the secret weapon to achieving your fitness goals? On this episode of Wits and Weights, we unravel how the 6S method from engineering can revolutionize your journey towards a lean physique. By sorting, setting in order, shining, standardizing, sustaining, and ensuring safety, you can transform your kitchen and gym into powerful allies. We dive into the nitty-gritty of reducing friction and making small yet impactful changes, like placing nutritious snacks at eye level or keeping your gym bag visible, to support your meal and workout plans.

In the first chapter, we explore how your environment can either support or sabotage your fitness goals. Using the 6S method from engineering as a systematic approach to optimize your spaces, we discuss how sorting, setting in order, shining, standardizing, sustaining, and ensuring safety can transform your kitchen, gym, and other spaces into powerful allies in your quest for a leaner physique. By eliminating unnecessary items, organizing what's left, keeping areas clean and functional, and maintaining these practices, you can reduce friction and enhance your consistency in sticking to your meal and workout plans. Practical examples, such as arranging nutritious snacks at eye level or placing your gym bag in a visible spot, illustrate how small changes in your environment can lead to significant improvements in your fitness journey.

Next, we focus on identifying and overcoming obstacles in your fitness journey, specifically through the application of the 6S method to optimize your environment for success. We explore how to create a personalized plan for fat loss, muscle building, or body recomposition by understanding what is holding you back and providing a three-step action plan for immediate results within 90 days. Additionally, I offer free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessments to help you clarify your goals and develop a concrete strategy. Remember to keep using your wits and lifting those weights as you work towards your fitness goals.

The first step in the 6S method is sorting, which is about eliminating things that are unnecessary. This could be physically clearing out things that you just don't want or need, like those tortilla chips or the snacks or the candy in your pantry, drawer, or fridge. It could be eliminating things from your home gym that you don't use so that you have space for things that you do, and it could even be prioritizing the things that are important to you in your calendar, such as training. By sorting, you create a clean and clear environment that makes it easier to make progress.

The next step is setting in order, which involves organizing what's left after you sort. In your kitchen, this might mean putting the snacks that you really want—maybe they're the high nutrient density, lower calorie snacks—at eye level in your fridge, in the front of the cabinet, or in the front of your drawer. Putting these items where you see them before you see the higher calorie options helps you make healthier choices. This principle can also be applied to your home gym or even your equipment that you take to the gym, ensuring that everything is easy to see and get to.

Shining, the third step, is about keeping your environment clean and functional. Think of it like feng shui; a clean kitchen, for example, makes your meal prep more appealing. Keeping your counter clean and functional by organizing your kitchen appliances and utensils can go a long way. This principle can be applied to other areas of your life as well, like your tool chest or your basement, where organizing things can reduce stress and make tasks easier.

Standardizing, the fourth step, is about creating systems and routines. This could involve setting reminders in your calendar or phone, setting an alarm, or putting a post-it note on the fridge to remind you to do something. For example, always packing your lunch the night before or having a set meal prep day each week can help you stay on track. By standardizing your routines, you reduce friction and make it easier to stick to your plan.

Sustaining, the fifth step, is about maintaining the changes you've made. Once you've created a clean, well-sorted, shiny, functional environment, you're likely to take pride in it. This pride can help you maintain the changes and create habits that reinforce the systems you've put in place. Sustaining your environment can lead to continued progress and success.

The final step, safety, is about ensuring that your environment helps you feel safe, less stressed, and confident in what you're doing. In a home gym, this could mean having the right equipment to ensure your physical safety. In your kitchen, it could mean having a clean and organized space that makes meal prep easier and less stressful. By creating a safe environment, you can reduce burnout and support your progress.

Throughout the episode, we discuss how willpower is a finite resource. Every time you have to make a decision, whether to eat that donut or go to the gym, you're using up some of that willpower. By optimizing your environment using the 6S method, you reduce decision fatigue and make it easier to stick to your plan. When your kitchen is stocked with the foods you want and your gym clothes are set up the night before, making healthy choices becomes the path of least resistance.

The beauty of the 6S method is that it's not about drastically changing everything. It's about making small, strategic tweaks that add up to big changes over time. Start with one area of your environment and go through each of the six S's. Sort, set in order, shine, standardize, sustain, and ensure safety. By taking it one step at a time, you can create an environment that supports your fitness goals and makes the choice that serves you the easy choice. In conclusion, the 6S method from engineering can be a powerful tool in your fitness journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

It might be that your lack of progress isn't due to a lack of knowledge or effort. It's your spaces that are sabotaging you. What do I mean? In today's episode, we are diving into a concept straight from engineering that could help you discover how your environment might be quietly undermining your efforts. You'll learn a systematic approach to transform your spaces into powerful allies to reduce friction in your quest for this leaner physique. Today, we'll uncover why your surroundings matter more than you think when it comes to consistently hitting your goals.

Philip Pape: 0:51

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring a concept that might be the missing piece in your fat loss puzzle the 6S method and how it applies to your environment, your fitness environment, your food environment, all of your spaces. You've probably heard me talk about the importance of systems and efficiency. Well, today we're taking that to a whole new level, because we're going to break down the 6S method, a principle used in manufacturing and engineering that can be applied to set up your environment for success, and by the end of this episode, you'll understand why your environment could be working against you right now, but how you can flip that around and make it an ally in your journey. So let's dive in. Let's explore how a little bit of this engineering wisdom can transform how you look at things. Let's talk about food for a second. Have you ever wondered why it's so hard to stick to your plan, even if you have a meal plan, even if you've thought ahead of it, when there's a big bag of chips sitting right on the table? Or why you find it easier to work out or train consistently when your gym clothes are laid out the night before right? These aren't random. They're prime examples of how your environment shapes your behavior, how you're able to increase or reduce friction and then, ultimately, the success that you have when it comes to behavior and habits.

Philip Pape: 2:16

And so there's this concept from engineering and manufacturing called the 6S method. It was originally developed to improve efficiency in factories. It was then later applied to offices, and we can take these principles and apply it to any aspect of life. And that's what we're going to do today. And what it is. It's a. It's a systematic approach to organizing and optimizing your environment.

Philip Pape: 2:41

And the six S's they actually come from Japanese, but they get translated into English to keep the S's, and they stand for sort, set in order, shine, standardize, sustain and safety. And throughout my engineering career I've used some variants of this. There's different ones, there's five S's, there's six S's, and for me it was often in the office. Somebody would come by and they'd say, okay, do you have everything organized so that you can easily find your documents? You know what's in what drawer, things like that. Of course, today a lot of people work from home. People aren't walking around checking your home office, but the principles still apply. So let's break down the six S's. Just go through each one and just quickly give you an example of how it might work. S's. Just go through each one and just quickly give you an example of how it might work.

Philip Pape: 3:25

The first one is sort, and this is about eliminating things that are unnecessary. This could be physically clearing out things that you just don't want or need, like those tortilla chips or the snacks or the candy or whatever in your pantry, in your drawer, in your fridge. It could be eliminating things from your home gym that you don't use so that you have space for things that you do, and it could even be prioritizing the things that are important to you in your calendar, such as training, if training is number one that comes first and you kind of create a list and then at that bottom of the list you say can I eliminate this or can I delegate this if it is not necessary? So there's all different ways to sort things to make our environment more pleasant, more clean, more clear for us to start making progress. Number two is set in order. This involves organizing what's left after you sort and so in your kitchen this might mean putting the snacks that you really want maybe they're the high nutrient density, the lower calorie snacks at eye level in your fridge, in the front of the cabinet, in the front of your drawer, putting it where you see it before you see, the higher calorie options, the things you want less. Now, when you're in a multi-person household, this might involve some conversation, but if someone there is supporting you, they should be okay with you putting their Oreo cookies in the back so you don't see them as easily. Very simple concept of organizing what's left. This could apply to your home gym as well. This could apply to even your equipment that you take to the gym. If you go to a commercial gym and you have your blender bottle, your protein, your gym bag, your squat shoes are those first sorted and then set in order so that they're very easy to see and get to. For example, if your gym bag, if your squat shoes, have a place in the front room, where you're going to walk by it every day on the way out, even when you're not going to the gym, it's a great visual reminder of that, a behavior that is part of your life.

Philip Pape: 5:25

The third S is shine, and this is about keeping your environment clean and functional. Almost think of like a feng shui right, when you think of the extreme of a living room that is just very clean, minimalist and it's functional. You have your area to sit, you have your area to get work done, things like that. So a clean kitchen, for example, makes your meal prep more appealing. So simply literally cleaning right, literally making the counter clean, and also not just you know, not just cleaning it, but also keeping it clear, keeping it functional.

Philip Pape: 6:00

You can have some decorative things, of course, but think about all your kitchen appliances. Which ones do you use more than others? The ones you don't. Maybe they go in the cabinet, maybe you have a rack up top that you can hang pans from, or kitchen implements, tools and things. Maybe the drawer you can reorganize your utensil drawer right Little things like that that can go a long way. I think about my basement, where I have my tool chest, and ever since we moved in I've been working to organize that. There's a lot of tools and I was thinking, you know what? It's a little bit frustrating and stressful when I have to do a small job and I go down there and things aren't where I want them. Same thing applies to our meal planning. You know, are your casserole dishes in the right place? Your pots, your pans, your ninja creamy, all the things that you use on a regular basis? So that's shine, keeping it clean and functional.

Philip Pape: 6:47

The next S is standardize. Now, this is one of my favorites. This is about creating systems and routines, and so this could involve initially setting for yourself a reminder in your calendar or in your phone, or setting an alarm or putting a post-it note on the fridge that gets you to do something, but that something is, for example, always packing your lunch the night before, or always having a set meal prep day each week, or always prepping your gym bag the night before, and standardizing, having a system. This doesn't have to be super automated and using AI and all this fun stuff. We're just talking about your food, your gym environment and making it as frictionless as possible. Number five is sustain. Now this some for some people is the hardest part is maintaining the changes you've made. But if you've already gotten rid of all this friction, you've created a clean, well suited, well sorted, shiny, functional environment, you're probably going to have some sense of pride in it. And if they then lead to you making progress, it kind of feeds on itself and you create habits and you consistently reinforce the systems that you've put in place.

Philip Pape: 7:59

And the last S is safety. Now, in manufacturing, this usually refers to physical safety when you're dealing with high voltage electricity or sharp tools or heavy equipment, but when it comes to nutrition and training, this could be making sure you have an environment that helps you feel safe, feel less stressed, feel like you know what you're doing and you know what to do next. It could be physical safety in a home gym, for example, by making sure you have barbell clips and spotter arms, safety pins all the right equipment so that you don't feel in danger at all. It could be making sure that you are tracking the things that you want to measure, both with your food, whether it's scale, weight measurements, lifting so that you have the confidence that what you're doing is going to produce the result, so that you know you're recovering right. When we say safety, do we mean physically being safe in the gym, with your form and recovering? So there's a lot of different ways to create an environment that supports your progress and prevents extreme measures, prevents burnout and allows you to recover and have some time to yourself.

Philip Pape: 9:03

Now we often talk about how willpower is a finite resource Discipline willpower. Every time you have to make a decision whether to eat that donut, whether to go to the gym you're using up some of that willpower. But when you optimize your environment using the 6S method, you reduce decision fatigue, you reduce the number of decisions you have to make because you've done it in advance. You've set your environment up to have as little friction as possible. It's just like when you make a plan, when you have a meal plan, and then you execute. You've already done the work ahead of time, when you had the energy to do the work, that did not require very much willpower, and then, when the time comes, the emotion is out of it and you just execute because you have no choice.

Philip Pape: 9:44

The environment is what it is when your kitchen is stocked with the foods that you want the lower calorie, higher density, the whole foods or even the indulgences, but the ones that you want and you have them in the right place, where there aren't just random temptations. Everywhere, eating well, eating for your goals becomes the path of least resistance when your gym clothes and your blender bottle and your squat shoes and your lifting belt are all set up to go the night before going to the gym actually becomes the easy choice. The harder choice would be to undo all of that. Now you're no longer fighting against your environment. It is actually working toward you and guiding you. It's like holding your hand and saying here we go Like. This is the way we do it, and this is why I often say that systems are going to outdo willpower. Any day of the week, you can have all the motivation in the world internal, external, doesn't matter. If your environment is constantly tempting you or making it difficult to stick to your plan. That is friction. You're fighting an uphill battle in that case.

Philip Pape: 10:45

Now the beauty of taking a method like this, the 6S method. It is not about drastically changing everything. It's take one thing take one of those S's and take one aspect of your environment and just start chipping away Small strategic tweaks that will add up to big changes over time. Start with your refrigerator or, if that's too overwhelming, start with one drawer, one cabinet. Start with the one gym bag drawer. S-trick right. It's about engineering your surroundings to make the choice that serves you, whether that is for fat loss or anything else the easy choice. So just pick one area of your environment and go through each of the six S's, starting at the top Sort. Just start with sort, and you might find that one of them is unnecessary or it's easy and you go to the next one. Just start with one and do it. You don't even have to go to the next one the same day if you don't want to. You could. And once you sort, then you set things in order and that'll make those choices even easier. Then you keep it clean, you keep it appealing and functional, you standardize, you sustain these because you've got the pride and you've done the work to put it in place. And then you make sure everything supports you and supports the safety for you.

Philip Pape: 11:57

This is an aspect of continual improvement, constantly refining your surroundings to better support your goals, and it never really ends. You'll always find opportunities to do this, so go back to this episode in the future. If you're like hi, I need to work on my environment. Something in my environment just doesn't feel right. It feels dirty, it feels like it's going against me. I always eat this snack food that's sitting there on the table and analyze, optimize, iterate. Of course, in the car or you're walking, you may not have the full environment, but really everywhere you are is part of your environment. So you might be surprised. In your car, for example, it might be a little dirty, you might have things that are not as efficiently set up for you for your commute, for listening to that podcast.

Philip Pape: 12:49

What are the little things that are holding you back from your goals?

Philip Pape: 12:53

What's hindering you?

Philip Pape: 12:55

And then, how can you apply the 6S method to make the environment work for you?

Philip Pape: 12:58

All right, if you are not entirely sure how to apply this to your life, or you wanna take this concept and take it to the next level and figure out for you what is my plan, what is my fat loss plan? What is my muscle building plan? Body recomposition I have free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessments that I do all the time where I get on the call with you, I get on a zoom call and we just talk about your goal, where you are, where you want to be. What is the one thing holding you back? And then give, give you a three-step action plan to get you immediate results in the next 90 days. Maybe it's about refining your environment, maybe it's something else, but you'll only know if you book it. So book your assessment with me. Go to witsandweightscom, click the big button at the top or click the link in the show notes. That is it for today. This is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights. Until next time, keep using those wits, keep lifting those weights. We'll talk to you then.

Eat These 5 Foods and Lose 20 Pounds By Next Week | Ep 206

Eat these five superfoods and lose 20 pounds by next week! Grabs your attention, doesn't it?

It's the kind of promise that floods our social media feeds, beckoning us with the allure of quick, effortless weight loss or other results. Are you tired of falling for these? Why do they never deliver and are you ready to do what actually works?

Philip (@witsandweights) debunks the biggest myths in the fitness industry and reveals how to achieve real, lasting results with a sustainable approach. He discusses why these magic bullet approaches fall short and can be harmful. He shares strategies for navigating the misinformation that clutters our social media feeds, from focusing on fundamental principles to understanding the importance of personalization in fitness and nutrition. By the end of this episode, you'll have the tools to become a more discerning consumer of fitness content, ensuring that you stay on the path to real, lasting results.

📨To learn more about the silly claims in the fitness industry that just aren’t true and what to do instead, join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:57 The appeal of quick fixes
5:50 The truth about detox teas and quick weight loss
6:56 Debunking the 10-minute ab workout myth
8:26 The keto craze and other diet fads
11:30 Recognizing oversimplified, unrealistic promises
15:54 Five strategies for navigating fitness misinformation
23:24 The evolving nature of fitness
26:34 Final thoughts on sustainable fitness approaches
27:19 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs.

Related episodes:

• 7 Biggest Fitness & Nutrition Myths Busted After 200 Episodes (According to Listeners) | Ep 200

• The Perfect Meal Plan | Ep 112

• Mike Matthews on Energy Balance, Training Volume, and Priorities for Novice and Intermediate Lifters | Ep 94

Episode summary:

Host Philip Pape dives deep into the pervasive myths and deceptive marketing tactics in the fitness and diet industry. This episode aims to empower listeners to become savvy consumers of fitness advice, enabling them to avoid the traps of one-size-fits-all solutions and embrace sustainable, personalized approaches to health and fitness.

One of the key topics discussed in this episode is the allure of quick fixes. From detox teas to magic exercises, these so-called solutions promise rapid, effortless results. Philip highlights how these products flood social media feeds with enticing claims that are often just believable enough to make you wonder if they might actually work. However, the reality is that these quick fixes often fall short, failing to deliver the promised results. Detox teas, for example, are usually just laxatives that lead to temporary water weight loss rather than actual fat loss. Similarly, short 10-minute ab workouts might provide some minimal benefits but won't lead to a six-pack without significant changes in diet and overall exercise regimen.

Philip emphasizes the complexity of the human body, shaped by genetics, lifestyle, and hormones, making it unlikely that a single change can lead to dramatic results. The episode encourages listeners to be skeptical of oversimplified solutions and to understand the importance of a holistic approach to fitness. By becoming more discerning consumers, individuals can better navigate the cluttered world of fitness information and avoid falling for gimmicks that promise too much and deliver too little.

The episode also tackles persistent myths in diet culture, particularly the ketogenic and carnivore diets. These diets often claim to be the only effective way to lose weight, with proponents arguing that carbs are the sole culprits of weight gain. Philip debunks these claims by explaining the fundamental principle of energy balance, which dictates that calorie deficit, regardless of the diet followed, is necessary for fat loss. He also highlights the importance of a personalized approach to diet, as what works for one person might not work for another. This personalized approach is crucial for long-term success and sustainability.

Intermittent fasting is another hot topic discussed in the episode. While intermittent fasting can be a useful tool for some, Philip clarifies that it offers no unique benefits over other eating patterns except for lifestyle and adherence. The episode demystifies intermittent fasting, explaining its potential benefits and limitations. Philip stresses that sustainable weight loss typically occurs at a gradual pace of one to two pounds per week, and unrealistic expectations like losing 20 pounds in a week are both misleading and harmful.

Variety in diet is another significant aspect covered in this episode. Philip emphasizes that there are no "magic foods" for weight loss or fat loss. Instead, a diverse diet helps prevent nutrient deficiencies and supports overall health. Sustainable habits and understanding energy balance are crucial for long-term success. The episode offers practical advice on how to navigate the minefield of fitness and nutrition information, providing five key strategies to stay focused and realistic.

First, focus on principles over tactics. Instead of getting caught up in specific foods or exercises, understand the underlying principles of nutrition and training, such as energy balance and progressive overload. This approach allows for more flexibility and personalization in your fitness journey. Second, be skeptical of extreme promises. Rapid, dramatic results with minimal effort are often too good to be true. Real, sustainable change takes time and consistent effort.

Third, consider the credentials and experience of those providing fitness advice. While credentials are not the only indicator of reliable information, they can provide a good starting point. Look for individuals who have a well-rounded background, relevant education, and a proven track record. Fourth, understand that context matters. What works for a young fitness model may not work for an older adult with different lifestyle factors. Tailor your approach to fit your unique circumstances and goals.

Finally, embrace personalization. The most effective fitness and nutrition plans are those tailored to your individual needs. This may involve some trial and error, but finding what works best for you is crucial for long-term success. Whether you work with a coach or figure it out on your own, personalization is key.

In summary, this episode of Wits & Weights provides a comprehensive guide to navigating the often confusing and misleading world of fitness and diet advice. By debunking common myths and emphasizing the importance of personalized, evidence-based approaches, Philip Pape equips listeners with the knowledge and tools they need to achieve sustainable health and fitness. Tune in to this episode to learn how to separate fact from fiction and embark on a more informed and successful fitness journey.

📲 Send me a text message!

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Eat these five superfoods and lose 20 pounds by next week. Now, that is the kind of promise that floods our social media feeds, beckoning us with the allure of quick, effortless weight loss or other quick results. Sometimes they're just believable enough to make you wonder if they actually work, and that's the insidious underbelly of the fitness industry. Today, we're exposing oversimplified fitness solutions, from detox teas that promise to melt fat overnight to 10-minute workouts guaranteed to give you six-pack abs. We're going to unpack why these magic bullet approaches not only fall short, but are the very bane of the existence of this industry, and something you'll want to craft some effective and intelligent armor against. No, this episode will not tell you the five foods that will help you lose 20 pounds by next week unless those five foods are water but it will help you sift through the misinformation to become a more discerning content consumer, and, ultimately, that is what will get you the exact results you're looking for. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're dealing with a topic that's probably frustrated every single one of us at some point in our fitness journey, the do this one thing advice that's plastered all over social media. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about. It's these posts that claim if you just eat these five superfoods or you just do this one magic exercise, you'll insert result here. You know, lose 20 pounds in a week, get a six pack overnight. Insert result here lose 20 pounds in a week, get a six pack overnight. And oftentimes it sounds just reasonable enough to maybe, just maybe, work. And then it snags you in through enticing marketing copy or an unbelievable price. But be honest with yourself. How often have you tried following this kind of advice and then found that it actually delivered on its promise? Yeah, a big fat goose egg. And some of this advice is sillier than others, but it's all worth examining so that we can understand the patterns and the logical fallacies behind them, not to mention, often, the motives.

Philip Pape: 2:17

Now speaking of silly fitness myths, if you want to stay updated on the latest silly myths out there and my sarcastic take on why they're silly and much less silly, evidence-based solutions that actually work, delivered straight to your inbox, join my free mailing list at witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in my show notes. Again, I love to send out myth-busting type emails about these things so you get a more nuanced picture of what actually works. And I don't tell you it's only this thing. It's usually much more nuanced and personalized than that. So to get those, click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email.

Philip Pape: 2:55

Now, today's episode was inspired by a message from one of our listeners, jen Emma, and some recent discussions I've seen on Reddit as well. Jen, shout out to you, thank you so much for bringing this up. Your frustration is shared by so many people out there, myself included, and for years that's kind of the trap that I fell into wanting that next easy thing or that one thing that works. And it's the exact kind of myth busting we love to do in this show, with this lens towards skepticism and curiosity that I want everyone to have. Let's start breaking down why these one-size-fits-all solutions are so appealing and why they ultimately fail. Then later in the episode, we'll talk about strategies to navigate information online without having to learn how to read scientific papers. This is where, hey, you could listen to guys like me. You can listen to ladies and men who have podcasts, who you respect, who you trust, without necessarily having to dive all the way deep and spend four hours a day reading papers.

Philip Pape: 3:58

First, what is the appeal? The appeal is that these quick fixes promise fast results with minimal effort, and we all know that fast and cheap are two of the pillars of marketing and results and why people make their choices. If I told you it takes six to 12 months to lose the fat you want to lose, or you see a billboard that says you can get it done in one day with liposuction, and even if it's five times the cost, you can see why people make the decisions they do. We see the same thing with well, I'm not even going to go there and talk about pharmaceuticals in any way today, but you get the idea and these quick fixes. They're often backed by carefully selected quotes cherry-picked from studies, or even studies themselves that are cherry-picked from studies, or even studies themselves that are cherry-picked, or definitely, testimonials are huge Testimonials from people who look like they've got it all figured out before and after photos. And in a world where we're all short on time, we're bombarded with information. We love instant gratification.

Philip Pape: 5:01

A simple solution is incredibly attractive and it doesn't have to be crazy. The diets that are out there, something like keto that says just eat this and don't eat this. That is simple and it's attractive, but it doesn't necessarily mean it works. The problem here is that our bodies are complex systems. They're influenced by a multitude of factors genetics, lifestyle, your stress levels, your sleep quality, everything you're doing every day, your age, all these things, your hormones right, and the idea that one single change is black and white, dramatically will transform your body is, frankly, ridiculous. Speaking of ridiculous, I trolled the internet and I looked for some real world examples and Reddit is a great place to go for these, by the way and I found four that were interesting and not too crazy, actually, and people believe these and oftentimes jump into them and you hear the marketed quite extensively.

Philip Pape: 5:55

So the first one is detox teas. These teas are usually marketed as a simple solution to weight loss. Right, weight loss is the thing everybody seems to want, and they'll say things like drink this tea every morning and lose 10 pounds in a week. But guess what? These teas are just laxatives. That's all they are. It's just reducing what you eat, causing you to expel it from your body, drinking a bunch of fluid, and they lead to temporary water weight loss. They're not burning fat. They're not detoxifying your body right. That's what your liver and your kidneys are really good at doing, naturally. And this premise of losing weight fast is found in lots of these claims, and oftentimes it's because it actually quote unquote work. Like when you go on keto and you cut out a whole bunch of carbs all of a sudden and you cut out all processed foods all of a sudden, you're probably going to drop calories massively and you're going to drop water weight massively, and so that first week or two you're going to have multiple pounds of weight loss. Little to none of it is actually fat loss. So detox teas are one.

Philip Pape: 6:56

The next one is the 10-minute ab workouts, and I bring this up because back in the 90s, when I was a teenager and then actually it might've been the 2000s, I was in my 20s I definitely fell prey to the idea of the very short workouts every day that can produce these maximum results, these amazing results, and 10-minute abs, or six-minute abs even, are one of those, and you've seen these for years and years and years, and they keep popping up on Instagram influencers claiming that if you do a specific set of exercises every day for just 10 minutes, you're going to get a six-pack in just a few weeks. Right Now, any form of movement training exercise will do something for you. It may not be the thing you're looking for and it may not be the best thing for you, but for someone who hasn't been working out at all, then starts doing something, it's going to give you some result, right, it might help a little bit with your core strength. It might develop your ab muscles just a tiny bit. But then you get very disappointed when you realize not much visibly is happening and not much is happening beyond that, because you're not changing your diet, you're not changing your body fat percentage, you're not actually training overall for strength and muscle in the proper way progressive overload, those kinds of things. So anything that just promises something in only a few minutes a day you have to be skeptical of. Having said that, there are minimum effective dose ways to train that you don't have to train very long and can get pretty good results. But it's going to be very personalized and it's going to be a little more nuanced than something like this.

Philip Pape: 8:27

All right, the next one is I'm just going to call it the keto craze. It continues to this day. You can fill in the blank and replace keto with carnivore, if you'd like. Some influencers are pushing these diets. Take the ketogenic diet, for example, as the only effective way to lose weight, and you see the zealots out there, because they'll reply to other posts that are more nuanced and they'll say no, it's.

Philip Pape: 8:49

You know, not all calories are equal. Energy balance is not how it's done. It's carbs are making you fat, right, or it's. This is making you fat, or you know it causes it's inflammatory or it's toxic or whatever, and it really does ignore the fundamental principle of energy balance that you have to be in calorie deficit, regardless of the diet you follow, to lose fat. Now, that doesn't mean that certain foods might not be triggering for you, and by triggering I mean they can cause inflammation or they can cause a change in your stress levels, or you may have a bad reaction or an allergengen or something like that. But again, it's very personalized and this is where an individual has to go through a process of figuring out what those are, not just saying I'm going to cut all these things and the be all end all, because guess what happens? Right, when you cut out all carbs, most people are miserable and you've just eliminated wide swaths of your potential food, delicious foods on your plate, that could be perfectly fine for you, and not only fine for you, optimal and beneficial for you. So just replace the keto craze with the carnivore craze or the vegan craze or whatever specific diet you want to put in there.

Philip Pape: 9:56

And then the fourth one I wanted to mention today is it still persists intermittent fasting as this cure-all. And I actually saw an article recently talking about one of the more recent studies looking at autophagy and longevity, and the interpretation people were coming away from it was oh see, intermittent fasting, you have to do it because then you'll live a long life, again, not realizing that it didn't account for so many other factors of longevity, including muscle mass. And a lot of these studies are either observational, or they are done on rats, or they are done where you isolate one mechanism from all the others. And so intermittent fasting is really the big one, because it's a hugely popular trend and it hasn't stopped, and I did it myself for years and people will push it for much more than it probably is beneficial. So what do I mean? They push it as a solution for weight loss, muscle gain, mental health, right, everything, longevity and again, I like to separate what's true from what's not, and what's true is intermittent fasting can be an effective tool for some people, particularly for managing calories and meal timing and your hunger signals, and that's it. If it's good for your schedule, if it's good for your adherence, then it could work for you. But you don't have to do it and it offers no benefits versus not fasting, versus eating five, six, seven meals a day and spreading out the feeding window no benefits whatsoever other than the lifestyle and the adherence perspectives.

Philip Pape: 11:30

Okay, now let's circle back to our main claim. Right? The title, the title of the episode eat these five foods and lose 20 pounds by next week. Anything that sounds like that. This is the perfect example of the kind of oversimplified, unrealistic promise we're talking about, and I admit I used it as clickbait to get you to listen to this episode, but it's because I want to emphasize how ridiculous it is.

Philip Pape: 11:53

Because, first of all, losing 20 pounds in a week is not just unrealistic, it is potentially dangerous. Right, healthy, sustainable weight loss, fat loss typically occurs at a rate of about one to two pounds per week. That is the vast majority of people. A tiny group of people might go a little faster than that, especially if they're bigger or maybe they have a lot of muscle, a higher metabolism. Any tiny, tiny people will go slower than that because they can't go that fast. Their metabolism is lower. They're a smaller individual, right, they don't want to eat so few calories, but one to two pounds is pretty typical. Secondly, while certain foods because again we're talking about the five superfoods or the five best foods certain foods can definitely be part of your healthy dietary pattern. No single food, no small group of foods, no quote unquote. Superfood has the power to cause dramatic anything on its own. Hey, this is Philip, and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits and Weights. Anything on its own only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life.

Philip Pape: 13:13

If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential, whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created Wits and Weights Physique University, a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. Wits and Weights Physique University a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever With a personalized, done-for-you nutrition plan, custom-designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community. You'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest, leanest and healthiest version of yourself.

Philip Pape: 14:07

Now back to the show. Having said that, I am a huge fan of incorporating diversity in lots of different foods and knowing that if you have nutrient deficiencies, there are certain foods that will help with those deficiencies. But even then, it's not just one food. Right? The things you get from mushrooms, you might be able to get from asparagus. The things you get from I don't know squash, you get from spinach. Right? There's a lot of crossover here and diversity is where it's at. And when we talk about weight loss or fat loss, we're talking about energy balance. And then we're talking about sustainable habits, not magic foods. Right? Do you enjoy what you eat? Can you make tasty recipes? Right? Can you meal prep and find the stuff at your grocery store and then see how that can fit around your meal plan and your macros and calories and nutrient needs. That's the way to go.

Philip Pape: 14:57

So now, why do people push these solutions? I mean, I think the biggest reason is they're marketable, right, it's a lot easier to sell a simple solution than a complex or boring or nuanced or personalized one. And many of these influencers who are already, let's say, fit or thin or whatever the look we're attracted to, they've probably put in years of consistent work, training in the gym, actually tracking their macros and focusing on their nutrition and not actually using the thing that they're selling. But again, it's not catchy. Now, I'm not saying that all advice on social media is bad. Of course not. There are tons of knowledgeable ethical trainers, coaches, experts out there sharing great information. There are also lots of well-intentioned people who inadvertently share poor information. I'm really most concerned about the ones that deliberately and unethically share known and correct information and they push it for marketing purposes.

Philip Pape: 16:06

The key here is to learn to distinguish between the realistic I'll call it evidence-based advice. But again, you have to be careful. People aren't calling themselves evidence-based and just cherry-picking evidence. So we have to learn between the difference between that and the flashy stuff, the quick fixes and then they're not always obvious because they're not always as crazy as some claims. So I want to give you some strategies now to navigate this minefield of information, because I do get that question all the time and this does go back to Jen's original question, a listener who I gave a shout out to of like, what do I do? There's so much you know, do this one thing? Advice out there. All right. So five simple strategies.

Philip Pape: 16:44

The first one is to focus on the principles, not the tactics. So, instead of when you see information where they're talking about a specific food or exercise, always know that anything specific where it's black or white, where they're excluding things, typically they are violating the principles of nutrition and training, which allow for a lot more variety than what they are claiming right. And if you know how energy balance works, how progressive overload works, the importance of being consistent, right Behavioral change, you can then say, okay, does this thing violate any of those principles? And having said that, I realize that sometimes I will say that I have a favorite way to do things. So, for example, I am a huge advocate of compound lifts as the fundamental way to train, but hopefully I've never said that that's the only thing you should do or that's the only right way to do it. Instead, I make my argument based on the cause and effect. I'll say okay, compound lifts use more muscle mass, you can lift heavier weight and they save time because you're using multiple muscle groups. Therefore, from a time efficiency standpoint, which many of you are going for, it's probably the optimal approach. So you got to listen to how it's worded as well. So focusing on the principles and applying them to what you hear instead of the method itself like there's a one right method can be very helpful.

Philip Pape: 18:38

Number two is be skeptical of extreme claims. Always If someone promises rapid, dramatic results, especially with minimal effort, your BS detector should be on high alert. Real sustainable change takes time and effort. When someone reaches out to me to ask for help and I can tell that they're maybe interested in coaching and working together One of the five questions I send them. Okay, I just send five questions. One of the five questions is how important is sustainability to you? And sometimes I'll get an answer like I'm not sure what that is, or I'm looking for results in 12 weeks, and then that's a red flag for me and it's like, okay, that's unrealistic, this is what it actually requires. If you are good with that, of doing it the right way for the first time in your life I don't necessarily say it that way then I would love to help you, because this is going to change your whole perspective of how you do this. And if they're like, no, no, I really need to lose, you know, 20 pounds in 12 weeks, I'm like okay, I'm not the coach for you. You know, good luck. So be skeptical of extreme claims.

Philip Pape: 19:43

Number three, the third of the five principles here is looking for credentials and experience. Now, it's not a guarantee that someone with a credential is going to be any good, but what you want is kind of the whole picture. Does someone have the relevant background, education, experience and kind of the totality of that put together, where you can see the authority they've developed over the years? You can see other people who trust them. They get around, maybe they're on a whole bunch of other podcasts and you can go see who trusts them and what kind of shows they're on. A guy like Dr Eric Helms has been on my show a couple of times. You can't help but just find him all over the internet and easily figure out. He knows what he's talking about, Whereas somebody else. If it takes you a while to Google them and you have trouble even finding information about them and they have this special program that's kind of locked down behind you only find out if you pay the $27 to get the guide right.

Philip Pape: 20:40

There's a spectrum of things and I don't think you have to have a degree, that's for sure. Right, I don't have a degree in the nutrition side. I have a PhD, but it's not in nutrition. But I do have a lot of. I do have coaching certification. I do have a lot of experience. I've worked with a lot of people. I have this podcast, right, like, I've put a lot into the world that allows you to validate me and kind of do a background check on me. So do your background check on someone, right? And that includes how they train and how they eat and what they're posting on their story and all that good stuff. That's number three, all right.

Philip Pape: 21:19

The fourth principle of navigating this minefield is understanding that context matters. Context matters, and one way that context matters is that, for example, what works for a 22-year-old fitness model or bodybuilder bikini competitor might not work for a 45-year-old parent with a full-time job who's in perimenopause, right. Your approach needs to fit your lifestyle and goals, but also the information out there needs to be clear what context it falls in. If somebody is just making a blanket claim without context, that is a red flag. So not only should it have context. That context then allows you to understand whether it makes sense for you, and we tie that to principles and it all comes together. The fifth principle here is embracing personalization, right?

Philip Pape: 22:11

The most effective fitness plan, workout program, nutrition plan is the one that's tailored to you. Now, who does the tailoring? That might be you, that might be you with a buddy or friend, that might be you posting on a group that you're in and other people help you figure it out, and that might be a coach helping you do it. What it's not is a cookie cutter plan or a one size fits all plan that's out there. I do love efficiency, so I'm fine with templates, like when it comes to macros and you know that your expenditure is 2,500 calories and then you go online you find like a 2,500 calorie meal plan. Well, sure, that is a great template to start from, to give you an idea, to give you some inspiration. Similarly, if you work out and you want to go four days a week, up or lower, and you go to, for example, the Boost Camp app, which I use personally. In fact, I can throw a link to that. I think I do have a link to that in the show notes further down, free programs from experts. You can then say, hey, I want to build muscle, I have four days a week and I have a home gym with barbells, and then kind of find a template that works for you.

Philip Pape: 23:22

Even then, however, with the meal plan, with the workout program, you may need to make modifications. You probably will need to make modifications for your individual needs what you like, what your schedule is, what your circumstances are, what things you can train with, what food you like to eat, and on and on. So the fastest, easiest way to do that is working with a coach. The slower but still effective over the long-term way to do that is some trial and error to find what works best for you. And if you listen to this show, I can definitely point you to specific episodes on specific topics that will give you some inspiration on how to do that trial and error, how to experiment. All right.

Philip Pape: 23:58

So the big picture here fitness, getting fit, getting jacked swole looking better, losing fat, building muscle. This is a process and it's very personalized to you. It's not a destination that you just do this one thing and get a result. It's building a new system for yourself, a system for you based on habits. Now if you're wondering, okay, I, even as a certified coach and fitness professional, I don't have all the answers and I hope I never claim to. In fact, one of the most valuable things I've learned is the importance of saying I don't know, or it depends, and that can be frustrating for people.

Philip Pape: 24:39

The fitness industry it's constantly evolving as new research emerges, so even things we think we know sometimes get turned up on their head and change, like this idea of the anabolic window and eating protein. We know now that you can eat tons of protein all at once and your body will still use that to build muscle, and so now we know we can eat whatever amount of protein we want, as many meals as we want, as long as we get the total protein for the day, and that can be liberating. Once we start to learn the nuances from the research, other research might show us that, hey, we've confirmed time and again that you probably need to eat at least 0.7 grams per pound of protein every day or you're going to have some negative outcomes in terms of muscle mass strength, hypertrophy, health, all that right. So there are some I'll call it thresholds, or there are some things that are kind of like the law of gravity, where you kind of know they're true, but it took years of research emerging and confirming that right. What we thought was true a decade ago might be disproven today or might continue to be confirmed, and that's why it's important to stay curious, to keep learning, to be willing to adjust your approach as you go.

Philip Pape: 25:52

And this mindset, this continuous learning, this adaptation, this growth mindset, is far more valuable than any single piece of fitness advice, Even something that I might say on this show. It's just a little blip of information. What matters is how does it work for you? Are you learning about yourself? Are you adapting and growing? And that allows you to evolve with the science. It allows me to evolve with the science as a person who is a proclaimed quote unquote expert and I barely even want to use that term. It's just because I'm obsessed with this and I've spent thousands of hours looking into this stuff. It allows you to experiment with different approaches and then find what works best for you. And that is where we're trying to go. So the next time you see a do this one thing post, instead of immediately trying to implement it, ask yourself how does this fit into the broader principles of training and nutrition? Is it sustainable for me? How might I need to adapt it to my situation? And this approach? It's hard to say, it's not sexy, it's kind of boring. It's doing the work, it's putting in the effort, it's not a quick fix, but I promise you it is the smart, efficient way to go to actually get long-term success that you sustain for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape: 27:11

All right, as we wrap up, let's recap the main points. Number one one-size-fits-all solutions rarely work because our bodies are complex and individual. Number two be skeptical of extreme claims and quick fixes. Number three focus on the principles rather than latching onto tactics or methods. Number four personalization is where it's at. What works for someone else might not work for you. And number five have that mindset, embrace that mindset of continuous learning and adaptation. The goal is not to find the perfect diet or workout plan. It's to build the nutrition and training system for you that runs 24-7, the nutrition and training system for you that runs 24-7, always works. Lets you enjoy life while doing it.

Philip Pape: 27:51

All right, if you found value in today's episode, if you want to continue learning how to separate fitness facts from fiction, make sure to join my free email list at witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in my show notes. You're going to get regular updates on common fitness misconceptions. You'll get science-based solutions things that I do with clients actionable strategies so that you can figure out what works for you and actually achieve your goals, and you're not going to fall for empty promises. Join my email list at witsandweightscom slash email and arm yourself with knowledge, plus a little bit of my quirky personality and writing to make informed decisions about your health and your fitness. All right, and then later this week you're going to see an episode called Diet Soda is Good for you. That plays into this theme of skepticism and how to evaluate what you read online.

Philip Pape: 28:42

Make sure to follow the show right now in your podcast app. Click follow so that you don't miss it. You'll get notified when it comes out. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, keep lifting those weights and remember there is no one right way to get fit. Find what works for you, be consistent and enjoy it. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The Hidden Brain in Your Gut Might Be Controlling Your Cravings with Dr. William Ferro | Ep 205

Are you struggling to lose weight despite trying every diet? Could your gut be secretly driving your cravings, mood, and performance? Are you ready to unlock the power of your "second brain"?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the fascinating gut-brain connection with Dr. William Ferro, founder and CEO of Betr Health. They explore how your gut—the "second brain"—might be the secret to transforming your health, conquering cravings, and achieving your fitness goals. Dr. Ferro shares practical strategies to reset your gut, reduce inflammation, and take control of your food choices through personalized nutrition. He also highlights why it's not your fault if you're struggling with weight loss and how understanding your body's unique needs can make all the difference.

Join Philip and Dr. Ferro for an in-depth discussion that could change your perspective on your diet, health, and fitness journey.

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15-minute call.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:30 The role of the gut microbiome in genetic expression
4:18 The enteric nervous system and its significance
6:32 The bidirectional relationship between the gut and brain
9:27 How gut health impacts metabolism and performance
15:31 Personalized nutrition and elimination diets
28:04 Dr. Ferro’s approach to reducing inflammation
30:44 The benefits of fermented foods and fiber for gut health
36:20 Sugar and artificial sweeteners in your diet
40:24 Gut health and autoimmune conditions
42:35 The role of strength training in gut health and overall fitness
44:47 How pets can positively (or negatively) affect your gut
47:06 The question Dr. Ferro wanted Philip to ask him
49:50 Where to find Dr. Ferro
50:28 Outro

Episode resources:

• Dr. Ferro's website: betrhealth.com

• Quacks and Hypochondriacs Podcast

Related episode:

• The Dark Side of GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs (Ozempic, Mounjaro, Zepbound) with Amy Wilson| Ep 183

Episode summary:

Dr. William Ferro, the founder and CEO of Better Health, takes us on an enlightening journey into the profound connection between gut health and overall well-being. This episode delves into the science behind the gut-brain axis and offers actionable tips to help listeners harness the power of a healthy gut for improved mental and physical wellness.

Dr. Ferro begins by discussing the concept of the gut-brain connection, often referred to as the gut-brain axis. This bi-directional communication system between the gut and the brain plays a crucial role in regulating various bodily functions, including mood, food choices, and physical performance. The gut, often dubbed the "second brain," is home to a vast microbiome that influences gene expression and overall health. Dr. Ferro emphasizes that the gut's dynamic nature allows it to adapt quickly to positive changes, making it a powerful tool for improving well-being.

One of the key topics covered in this episode is the role of an elimination diet in achieving health success. Dr. Ferro explains how a well-curated elimination and reintroduction protocol can help reduce gut inflammation and identify food sensitivities. This approach involves temporarily removing certain foods from the diet and then gradually reintroducing them to observe their impact on the body. By doing so, individuals can pinpoint specific foods that may be causing inflammation or other adverse reactions. Dr. Ferro highlights the importance of having a coach to guide individuals through this process, as well as the benefits of using advanced technology for dietary tracking and compliance.

The episode also explores the principles of a gut-reset diet designed for sustainability and family inclusion. Dr. Ferro discusses why eliminating specific foods like pork, turkey, tuna, salmon, broccoli, and cauliflower can lead to better initial results by reducing variables that might impede progress. He emphasizes the importance of using high-quality ingredients, avoiding iodized salt, and cooking with broth instead of oils. Hydration is another critical aspect of this approach, as increased intracellular water contributes to weight loss and metabolic health. Dr. Ferro provides real-world examples to illustrate how sticking to a curated food list, even for a short period, can yield significant improvements in energy levels and weight loss.

In addition to dietary changes, the episode delves into the impact of lifestyle factors on gut health. Dr. Ferro discusses the importance of whole foods, adequate calorie intake, and the pitfalls of inadequate sleep, insufficient water intake, and lack of dietary diversity. He highlights the role of intracellular water as a key indicator of improved metabolism and the importance of removing external interferences, such as certain skincare products, to optimize bodily functions. A heartfelt testimonial from Nancy underscores the positive impact of Dr. Ferro's guidance on her daughter's nutrition and body image.

The discussion also touches on the historical wisdom of Hippocrates and the practical advice of health pioneer Jack LaLanne. Dr. Ferro shares promising research on fecal transplants for conditions like anxiety and autism, emphasizing the critical role of diet in maintaining a healthy gut microbiome. He advocates for the benefits of natural probiotics found in fermented foods and the importance of dietary fiber. Dr. Ferro argues that the body's innate ability to heal should be supported by wholesome, natural foods rather than supplements. Real-life examples illustrate how simple dietary changes can lead to dramatic health improvements, from better digestion to enhanced skin and hair quality.

Another significant topic covered in the episode is the impact of gut health on mental well-being. Dr. Ferro explains how gut health influences the production of serotonin, a neurotransmitter that plays a crucial role in regulating mood and anxiety. He emphasizes that restoring gut health can significantly enhance the effectiveness of emotional and mental therapies. This holistic approach to wellness underscores the interconnectedness of gut health, inflammation, and overall well-being.

The episode also explores the specific challenges faced by women with PCOS and other autoimmune issues. Dr. Ferro discusses how reducing systemic inflammation and insulin resistance can lead to improved fertility and pain management. He highlights the benefits of strength training for both muscle and bone health, especially as we age, and emphasizes the importance of professional guidance in fitness routines. Additionally, the conversation touches on the positive impact pets can have on gut health and stress relief through the release of endorphins.

To provide listeners with practical takeaways, Dr. Ferro offers actionable tips for optimizing gut health. He recommends incorporating fermented and fibrous foods into the diet, using elimination diets to identify personal trigger foods, and choosing natural sweeteners like honey over artificial options. He also emphasizes the importance of balancing intuitive eating with precise tracking for body composition goals and being mindful of how cravings can signal nutritional deficiencies.

Dr. Ferro concludes the episode by highlighting the benefits of an elimination diet as a way to reset and improve overall health. He encourages listeners to explore the resources available at Better Health, including personalized coaching and advanced tracking technology. Dr. Ferro's holistic approach to wellness, grounded in the principles of gut health and informed lifestyle changes, offers a comprehensive roadmap to achieving optimal health.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

you've tried every diet out there, maybe track your macros, you still feel powerless against those irresistible food cravings. What if I told you that the key to conquering these cravings isn't more willpower, but understanding a hidden brain in your gut? Today we're diving into the fascinating world of the gut brain connection. My guest will share how this second brain in your gut could be secretly controlling your food choices and what you can do about it. From the impact of gut bacteria on your cravings to your mood and even physical performance. We're going to geek out today on a new way to think about your body. Get ready to discover the power of your gut-brain axis and how it could transform the way you look at your health.

Philip Pape: 0:42

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I invited on Dr William Farrow, founder and CEO of Better Health, a leading health and wellness company focused on gut health and personalized nutrition. He's also the host of the Quacks and Hypochondriacs podcast. Dr Farrow has observed firsthand the limitations of conventional healthcare and has since championed a holistic approach to well-being, putting gut health at the center of his methodology. Today we're discussing the surprising links between your gut and other aspects of your health, why personalized nutrition is so powerful and how understanding your unique gut-brain connection might be the missing piece to your health and fitness.

Philip Pape: 1:43

Dr Ferro, welcome to the show.

Philip Pape: 1:48

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Appreciate the offer. So, doc, what is this second hidden brain in our gut that we've heard about, and what kind of superpower does it have?

Dr. William Ferro: 1:54

yeah. So we spend, you know, most of our time studying the 10 trillion human cells of the body. Give or take a few trillion. We focus on the dna, the human, and yet there's 300 trillion natural bacteria some people call it the microbiome that are living on your skin, living into your cheeks.

Dr. William Ferro: 2:12

I call it cheek-to-cheek nutrition because a lot of people think that the digestive system, your stomach, is an internal organ. It's actually an external organ. Its whole job is to only let good things in and keep bad things out. And that gut microbiome, that bacteria, is something that over the last 20 years people kind of scoffed at like could that really be a thing? And that's just because we didn't have the scientific instruments to look at it very well. So it has exploded onto the scene and now study after study is just showing that everything from 99% of your genetic expression so for those of you who think that I'm doomed with my genes, I have bad genes, I'll never lose weight 99% of how those genes are expressed have to do with your gut, and that's just one specific area of how it keeps you healthy.

Philip Pape: 2:56

So a couple of interesting things you mentioned. There is how it's on the inside but it's still on the outside, kind of this barrier, this tube, if you will cheek to cheek, and with tons and tons and tons of bacteria, the genetic expression part of it. How much control do we have over that? Because I think of genetics but I also think of epigenetics and what percentage of the impact genetics has versus the things that we do. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. William Ferro: 3:20

Yeah. So epigenetics is the right term here, and the studies are showing, you know, put a percentage on it 90%, 99%, whatever you want to say. A good percentage has to do. The expression of those genes being turned off or acting a certain way has to do with how healthy your gut is, which makes sense, because how healthy your gut is also makes how healthy your diversity of the food that you're eating. It also is how healthy your external environment is. How much exposure do you have to chemicals and pollution in the body? So it's more important about the world and the environment you're living in.

Dr. William Ferro: 3:56

This shouldn't be called Ayurvedic medicine, excuse me. Ayurveda. The practice is about how you're reacting to your environment or your environment's acting upon you, and that's the same thing. When it comes to genetic expression, epigenetics is way more powerful and you have so much control over it and it's not a journey. I think people think well, how am I going to do this? Within minutes and seconds of feeding your body and nourishing your body, you're already changing that expression and that's how fast your body works to try to get back to homeostasis.

Philip Pape: 4:25

Yeah, and that's a good way to put it right. The body is always adapting to the stimulus you give it, and it can be very quick. We see that in strength training. You know people who haven't trained for years and then all of a sudden they start training and within a week they're just much stronger and feeling differently, and it's amazing. Before we get into more of that, I am curious when it comes to talking about the gut as a brain. It's kind of the connection I wanted to explore here. There's a term called the enteric nervous system right, a bunch of nerve cells in there. I actually am not too familiar with this concept and I'm not sure the listener is, so can you explain that for us?

Dr. William Ferro: 4:58

Yeah, so full disclosure. I'm a gut health enthusiast more than biological expert. I just have watched it work wonders within my own practice. So maybe I'll give you a little background. I'll go into that.

Dr. William Ferro: 5:10

I was a chiropractor. I had 30 chiropractic offices and gyms. I was watching people struggle. We added in physical therapy, massage, medical doctors, we had every modality known to man working inside these clinics, inside these big gyms, including personal trainers. And then I was young in my world thinking I can out-science the body. So I started doing breath tests, saliva tests, poop tests, you name it. And as I thought I was getting closer to the truth, it just took me further away until I started realizing we keep blaming the plant and not looking at the soil, and that's what got me down the road of digestive health. So I know just enough to be dangerous, but I do things like.

Dr. William Ferro: 5:49

One of our medical doctors is from Duke University. You know Paul Wishmeyer. You'll hear him on our podcast. He knows every study that has ever transpired. He can trace every molecule in the body down to the enteric nervous system. So what I will just say is that the gut brain, or the cheek-to-cheek nutrition I'm talking about every step of the way, relies on good gut bacteria and that's where the gut bacteria is actually creating a lot of these neurotransmitters which you just mentioned, a lot of the hormones within our body, and they're communicating back and forth. We think that your brain is just controlling your body, but actually they're starting to realize that more of it's coming from the gut. Now there's a direct line connection from the vagus nerve, so there is a nerve connection, but if you really looked at it pound for pound, there's more neurologic activity actually coming from the gut brain, from the rest of the body, than the other way around. So that's why they're calling it the second brain and some people are saying it might even be the first brain.

Philip Pape: 6:47

Yeah, that's really fascinating. So it's bidirectional. Not only is it bidirectional, you're saying, maybe this second brain is more predominant in our outcomes. So maybe we could break down what does that mean for how our gut health then influences? We know it influences digestion, but our mood right, Our cognitive function, the things that we normally associate with our brain, even our performance and things like that how does that work?

Dr. William Ferro: 7:13

Well, I think it does go this way up, because your brain can't eat an apple, right? Sure, even if I didn't think about it, if someone forced me to eat an apple, I'm going to get the benefit of that apple. And so this is what's so important to me. Number one if you're listening, it's not your fault. If you take nothing away from this podcast, it is not your fault. I just watched another Instagram post yesterday of some beefy character telling people you just got to work out, you loser, you're a piece of crap, you're lazy, you're unmotivated and I'm like, okay, great.

Dr. William Ferro: 7:47

So here's a baby being born in the last 20 years, exposed to over 256 chemicals before it takes its first breath. 200 are cancer causing. Then it comes out, most likely C-section, because C-sections have risen. It doesn't get past the mom's good bacteria. So one of the best gifts your mom's ever going to give you is that first culture of bacteria to propagate this ecosystem, this soil, this cheek-to-cheek nutrition. So a lot of people are devoid of that.

Dr. William Ferro: 8:14

And then what do we do? We give antibiotics immediately. So we do everything we can to kill off that microbiome. The studies show one round of antibiotics can throw up your gut for up to a year dysbiosis, and so this already you start, not at the starting line behind. Then you get into the world of okay, well, the drinking water. Now, if you can Google this, is the rainwater safe for human consumption. Nope, there's forever chemicals, and not just in cities. Every part of the planet you find forever chemicals PFAS you can look that up. I always love when I hear things like they're still not sure if it can negatively affect the body. I can tell you clearly any chemical that is man-made, don't eat it. So that's that.

Dr. William Ferro: 8:57

Then you look at the pharmaceuticals in our drinking water. You look at the microplastics in our bloodstream, the rates of infertility and inflammation. That is what is causing this disruption of the brain-gut connection and I think, to start the podcast, that's what's going to make you feel like you're running an internal marathon. That's what's going to get your adrenal glands fired up. That's what's going to get your body craving sodium, potassium and sugar, because it's constantly in fight or flight or freeze mode and your body is actually doing, is acting healthy to an unhealthy situation and is exactly doing what it's designed to do.

Dr. William Ferro: 9:27

So stop thinking your metabolism has left you for a younger man or a younger woman. Stop blaming yourself that. It takes willpower. And I understand that you're full of doubt because every commercial tells you you should be doubtful, that you should look outside for your health. But that's just not the case. If you start with this gut, the gut takes over and puts you on autopilot. And so me sitting here and thinking well, if you get the gut it's supposed to be, I'm going to lose weight effortlessly and easy. No way, that's how you were designed right.

Philip Pape: 9:56

Yeah, no, I love it. So first of all, about those beefy 20 something fitfluencers on Instagram, you know, this is why I try not to get too beefy. People think it's easy, right? You mentioned a few things there, not least of which is from birth. You're exposed to things and there's choices your mother did or didn't make, and we're not judging any of that. We're just saying you don't control that. It happened and it's in your life. I've even heard whether you have pets, whether you eat food from the ground versus from the store, all of those things throughout your life and that your metabolism is very sensitive to things. I know that for sure. It's funny.

Philip Pape: 10:30

I'm going through shoulder rehab. I had rotator cuff surgery last year and it was getting very inflamed recently and my metabolism was dropping. I had a little cortisone shot after getting an MRI. My weight dropped like three pounds in a few days and everything just started to change in my metabolism. Right, I mean, it's just so sensitive to little things and I like how you're starting with one thing. You're starting with the gut and we're going to talk today about what can people do about it, because I know what people are thinking right now. You mentioned chemicals and pharmaceuticals Are you going to give us the whole? You got to do these 20 crazy things and avoid EM radiation and do cold plunges and red light therapy. Okay, so that's what I want people to know is probably a simple approach here and I want to start getting into that. Do we want to jump right into that or there's a more context first?

Dr. William Ferro: 11:21

Do a little bit, but my goal here is to first make you independently healthy and then, if you can get independently healthy, then you can do all that fun stuff and spend all the you can biohack the rest of your life, but right now we can do such small steps to maximize your health. I'm going to tell you the exact thing I take everybody through. There's no secret. You don't have to go through a labyrinth for me to tell you exactly what I discovered. So this is what I've discovered and now I've had I started with. You know probably 50, 60,000 patients of failure, so I know what failure looks like. And now I have probably 150 to 250,000 people after I learned and I feel bad for those people because I didn't keep their names and numbers. I wish I could call them from my old clinic, but now I know what success looks like. So here's what success looks like when you work with us, get you on the phone with a coach and we say all right, we believe that the gut is important and we know from science that the gut, lining the enteric system you talked about, can replenish itself. Give or take two weeks. I know that it actually starts to heal right away, but completely repair or whatnot for most people to about two weeks, and then I know three weeks in my experience is if I can reduce inflammation and things that are causing inflammation in your body for three weeks, that gives your body enough time to repair completely to the point where all the allergens are out of your body, triggers are down, and then I can bring back in food one by one so you can figure out what food works best for you.

Dr. William Ferro: 12:46

So I'm not a genius. It's an elimination reintroduction protocol, right, it's a gold standard. It's always been there. The difference is is I've had the opportunity to watch 50, 60,000 people fail and quarter of a million people succeed, and so I manipulated my what I call level one food list to be the list that I'm like. I can't tell you why I don't have broccoli or cauliflower or salmon on my list, like scientifically, you know, because if you read the plant paradox, you read a carnivore study. Someone's going to prove me wrong and switch studies in 10 seconds, flat, right, great. If that works for you, awesome. I'm just telling you that I've made people take pictures of their food for the last decade every single day sleep, mood, bowel movements, stress levels, activity levels.

Dr. William Ferro: 13:30

I've watched all this and I'm telling you that if you just stick to the food list that I give you and follow the protocol which some of it's counterintuitive you will see success. So this is what I do. I tell you all right, get you on the phone with the coach. Coach will say all right, do you cook or not cook? First question if you cook, great, we have some really easy recipes.

Dr. William Ferro: 13:47

If you don't cook, I have a nationwide meal delivery service. Because of some of the health plans that we're covered by, we only get paid for performance. So I didn't want to be in the food business and I'm not really. But it's actually cheaper than cooking yourself because I have people on Medicaid Medicare coming to us. They can't afford half the time to go buy all this stuff or they live alone, so it doesn't make sense sometimes to cook. So we have that. So basically, we have all the resources you need to be successful. But the coach's job is to say hey, let's just pick an upcoming Monday where you can just start to follow the protocol for three days. Three days of no alcohol, no artificial sweeteners.

Dr. William Ferro: 14:19

Oftentimes we send you a scale Now. Weight loss to us is just a byproduct, but it's an indicator of fluid retention inflammatory retention that, if you look at a daily basis, can give you a lot of insight. So we send them the scale. There's no app to download. All of our technology is built through text message. Now Even our AI 24-7 is built to that. It's really awesome because you can just take a picture of your dinner and it can take all the ingredients and pull all the ingredients down and then ask you hey, is this all the ingredients? 10 years ago this wasn't possible. It was awful technology. Now it actually amazes me how good it is. They can take a Chipotle bowl and tell you everything that's in it.

Philip Pape: 14:53

Hold on. Is that a part of your backend technology? Yeah absolutely, that's cool.

Dr. William Ferro: 14:57

Okay, I had an app and our app stinks Long story. But what I learned from it is I started with an online portal over a decade ago that morphed into text messaging and then text messaging with pictures, but we couldn't scale it because there was no backend back then. Now I created a backend so my coaches can see that text message and the AI can jump in between. But the great thing is is that I tell someone no alcohol, no artificial sweeteners, beef, chicken, steak, lobster, shrimp. You can be vegan, vegetarian, you could like Mexican cuisine, Indian cuisine, I don't care what.

Dr. William Ferro: 15:28

We have tons of recipes for you and the food delivery if you need it. And make sure this weekend you get prepped. You know the prep is everything right being prepared. So we just focus on that prep. We make them take pictures of their grocery cart, we make pictures of their food prep and then we say, great, you're ready to go. If you don't do that, you didn't fail. We just postpone you to next week. And if you don't do that, we postpone you. There is no such thing as failure. It's just being not prepared and we're not going to let you start unprepared.

Philip Pape: 15:55

No, I was going to say. It's like when a client says, well, I did bad or I did good, it's like, no, you just you missed your target or you hit your target right. It's data, let's move on, yeah.

Dr. William Ferro: 16:02

Agreed, and I mean you'll catch me eating a slice of pizza on a Friday night with my family, Like this isn't about, you know, being the restriction yeah, no way. But during the level one, I try to get people to stick to it as closely as possible, but I don't have to put a hammer on them because, say, look, here's the food rotisserie, chicken, mason jar, salad, simple things that you can make and your family can eat it. So here's the difference If you go on a keto and I'm not knocking any of these things, but anytime you go on something that your kids can't do, your family can't do, it's not going to be sustainable. And now you have the food prep for you and the other bozos running around your house, like my boys. So instead, because I'm using rice and burgers and chicken and they can eat along with me and they understand that, hey, this guy's not eating for calorie counting. So I never have people count calories and not weighing it. I'm just asking them to stick to this food.

Dr. William Ferro: 16:51

If you can get the highest quality meat, great. If you can get organic, phenomenal. You can't. But more importantly, I just don't want iodized salt in it. I want, you know, celtic or sea salt. I don't want you to saute in oil, olive oil, I want you to use it for flavor, cook in broth, so we give you some ways to cook. And then, if you just get up in the morning and weigh in, if you take pictures of your lunch and dinner, you have your fruit. In between we have apples, strawberries, blueberries, oranges and grapefruit. That's the kind of where we start. And then again, no pork, no tuna, no salmon and no turkey. Those are the only things we avoid. And then certain vegetables like broccoli and cauliflower, which always boggles everybody's mind Like oh, is that because it's a cruciferous vegetable? I have no idea.

Philip Pape: 17:35

Gwaetrogens. Wait before you continue. What's with this big and growing no list? I'm curious. You said alcohol and artificial sweeteners. There's also iodized salt. You mentioned certain actual what most people think of as like tasty lean foods, like pork. What's with that? What's the principle behind that?

Dr. William Ferro: 17:51

Yeah. So it's just my observation that when I'm trying to reset the gut, the people that were having pork products didn't get as great results. People with turkey products didn't get to get results, and so I just try to eliminate the variables. The faster I can get you to see results, the better it is. Now, remember that's only a short period of time, it's only a couple of weeks, and then when you bring it back in, it may be fine, or it could be the difference. So you could buy chicken at Publix and you can buy chicken at Lowe's and the person could literally have a different response. So I am just trying to reduce as many of the variables.

Dr. William Ferro: 18:25

To start, turkey right, sliced turkey versus actually someone made a turkey Bacon. I'm in North Carolina. This is like the bacon capital of the world. I can tell you that there's certain places. If you get the bacon from, it's going to react differently than the bacon gets somewhere else, which makes sense because of how they process it, what they put into it. So that's why it's just about eliminating the variables. And salmon holy crap, what did they do to salmon?

Philip Pape: 18:48

Even wild-caught salmon.

Dr. William Ferro: 18:50

No, so they didn't get sockeye.

Philip Pape: 18:56

Okay, yeah, no, I just I wanted to interject because I've definitely seen lots of different elimination diets. Some are very generalized. It's like cut out dairy, cut out gluten, cut out a couple other things. Do you have major groups or is it actually this very specific, curated list?

Dr. William Ferro: 19:08

It's a curated list. We do cut out gluten for the first little bit. We have dairy sparingly, because if you're a vegan or vegetarian it can be tough to get the proteins. Certain beans I cut out initially, but if you're vegan or vegetarian so we adapt it. And again, it's not steadfast rules. It's like all right, at least stick to this for three days.

Dr. William Ferro: 19:27

But here's what happens in three days you lose weight. Your energy goes up, even if you haven't lost weight for 30 years. You lose weight. You're like what the heck? And then, of course, you're like well, doc, that's just water weight. I don't care what weight it is, it shouldn't be there, right, whether it's fat or water. And I can prove to most people that it's fat. And the way I know that is when I was doing this in the clinics. I was doing bioimpedance testing before and after, because I was nervous. I was like people are losing weight, so dang fast on this, they're probably losing lean muscle tissue. So I started doing bioimpedance testing and then I realized, oh, actually it was fat that they were losing and I was increasing their intracellular water by like 60%, which is the big thing. Right, if you get water into your cell, that's where your metabolism is at its highest, you can stave off cancer. So I didn't put people on this just blindly.

Philip Pape: 20:12

So let's stop there again. Cause that weight loss people listen to show they know there's energy balance, but there's also the metabolic side of it and, like you said, water weight fluctuations. Do you know for sure that calorie equated? We see this and therefore it's due to like an increase in metabolism due to more water in your cells or something like that. Is it that well known?

Dr. William Ferro: 20:32

What I can say is that they're drinking on average depending on the person. We have people in their 70s or 80s doing this protocol, so I'm not going to make them drink 90 ounces of water, but generally people are drinking between 40 and 70 ounces of water, which, if you weighed out, is two to five pounds. Okay, so if I get you on the scale and the scale is going down by a pound each day half a pound depending on your size right, this is all relative, the net weight. Is it really water weight? Because you drank two to three, five pounds of water plus you're down, drank two to three, five pounds of water. Push it down.

Dr. William Ferro: 21:03

I just tell people that inflammation is leaving the body. Your body is getting in a state of ease. You're sleeping better. This is the number one way to lose weight. Right, it's to sleep better. As soon as I improve your sleep, your body's just converting more fat to energy while you're sleeping. So there's all of these factors combined versus just one or the other, and when most our average person, by the time 30 days up, they're down five and a half to seven percent of their body weight. To me that's just a high five.

Dr. William Ferro: 21:25

But what they learned was what healthy foods were causing an increase in retention of fluid, and I don't care if that fluid's fat deposit or water. They just learned how their body reacts. And once they learn that, the whole goal is just to get into a state of ease, which is the opposite of dis-ease. And when you're in a state of ease, your body functions the way it was supposed to do, which is go to sleep at night, get into a resting state, convert fat to energy. Let your brain let go of the day before that's the other thing Do the healing. And how does fat really leave the body Through respiration? But what does every one of these listeners think? They need to be in a treadmill, incline at a 45, in the target heart zone, getting their ass kicked. In my experience, exercise is counterproductive to fat loss initially.

Dr. William Ferro: 22:13

So like we work with a gym chain it's EOS Fitness. It's 100 gyms plus. They sign up 50,000 new members a month. All of their personal training clients get to do our program. That's 5,000 people a month.

Dr. William Ferro: 22:24

Imagine me explaining initially to a personal trainer hey, I don't want you to really work them out real hard in the first couple weeks. It took me since 2011 to work with gyms because I kept getting shunned everywhere. Finally they said, okay, well, what clearly we're doing, which is knee buckling workouts, flipping tires in parking lot, a cross fix and herding no offense to cross fix, I call it cross fix. Anyway, all that inflammation. Do they have a sprained ankle? Yeah, would you run around the gym in a sprained ankle? No, well, they have a sprained digestive system because they live in this environment like we all do, and if you don't focus on that first, you're just going to be spinning your wheels, you're just going to get frustrated. Yeah, you can fool the body into weight loss, no matter what you do. You can pick any fad or fake out you want, but it always comes back because you never actually healed the gut, you never got the inflammation out of the body and once you do that, it becomes the most sustainable thing that you could ever accomplish.

Philip Pape: 23:16

There's a lot of good stuff here. So have these groups or your clients gone through studies where you know, with randomized studies comparing the two groups and also any higher level of tracking with calories, macros and things like that, and their expenditure correlated with this? And the reason I ask is it's multivariate, right? If you're going to make this big change in your diet, of course you're changing a lot of variables all at once. One variable you're probably changing is your calories are probably going to drop just because you're eating more whole foods. Potentially, right. That's why I asked are the calories equated? But probably, naturally, you're going to do that.

Dr. William Ferro: 23:50

I missed your question because I'm always yapping yes, so you're right. So what ends up happening is right. You're eating these healthy foods, and I consider them the highest octane foods. Your body gets what it needs out of these high octane foods and whatever it needs outside of that, it gets while it's sleeping from your reserves. So, without a doubt, your calories are going to drop, but most of the time when someone does a program, they have such dieting mentality that we're literally screaming at them, like we just saw. That's why I make you take a picture too. I'm like you're not eating enough at them, like we just saw. That's why I make you take a picture too. I'm like you're not eating enough.

Dr. William Ferro: 24:23

By and large most of the weight loss stalls we ever see. Here's the number one culprits behind the weight loss stalls. Number one not enough sleep hands down sleep. Number two not enough water, because now you're eating all this fibrous food and it needs extra water because the fiber is soaking it up, so you actually need to drink more water. When you're putting in that fibrous food and then just not eating enough, not rotating your proteins, you keep eating chicken all the time. You're not diversing the bacteria. You don't have enough digestive enzymes. I just take everybody through this algorithm and then I teach them to ask themselves these questions Right now. It's cool that AI is doing it it's actually analyzing all this stuff but before that I would just teach the clients, because those are the culprits. People will say well, do you think it's going to work for me? I know your body works, ma'am. You built a baby in nine months without Googling it. You think this should be physical?

Philip Pape: 25:13

It's like the principles are all the same. Your individual response will differ, but you're taking them through the process of discovering that for themselves, hence the re-edition of certain things and tracking all the data, which I love. And the reason I keep kind of harping on the one little piece in my mind of your metabolism and your expenditure is I'm a big fan of energy flux, like eating more to move more, not restricting, not cutting, and even during fat loss, I want people eating as much as possible and still losing the weight they want to lose, which, like you said, sleep is huge, like five 700 calories a day of overconsumption when you don't get enough sleep, let alone the belly fat storage and the different body composition you know, nutrient partitioning and all that. I'd be very curious to see how much people's expenditure, metabolism has increased just in and of itself from this kind of approach anyway.

Dr. William Ferro: 26:03

Yeah, I could equate to the fact that I know their metabolisms have increased or improved from the intracellular water. That's hands down. When I used to do that biometric, that was the thing that got me. It wasn't so much that I saw better body fat, it was the fact that you were increasing intracellular water, and that is huge. Right. You want the water in the cell get that tenacity so it can do what it needs to do.

Dr. William Ferro: 26:25

But the people that come to us I think from a study perspective we are a CDC-approved diabetes, fully recognized diabetes, which means we had to submit data. But all they were really looking for is how fast we can get somebody to 5% weight loss and how sustainable it was. And compared to our peers, not even close. Because people are so stuck in that paradigm of move more, eat less. All you got to do, it's so simple, like everyone else, and I'm just saying just get out of the body's way and remove interference.

Dr. William Ferro: 26:51

You realize that when I do the call we have 400 people on our Zoom call each week. I'll say, okay, does anyone have a lotion right next to them? And they'll say, yeah, I said, pick it up. What's the first ingredient? It's either aqua or water. Why is that? Well, because it can sell you a bunch of water, basically, and a bunch of chemicals and call it something cool. I said do you think that water actually moisturizes your skin? No, if we absorbed water in our skin as soon as we came out of the shower, we would be a hundred pounds.

Dr. William Ferro: 27:18

Like a sponge, yep we would be a hundred pounds Like a sponge. Yep, yeah, it's not that case. They just do it to sell you. And if it's water in it in a bottle, what else do they put in to keep it from having bacteria and antibacteria? So you're literally killing off all the skin bacteria, which is a huge part of your ecosystem. Does that really cause an issue? Take it away. Watch what happens. Take that stuff away. All these little minor things you can do to get maximal improvement.

Nancy: 27:42

Take that stuff away, All these little minor things you can do to get maximal improvement. Hi, my name is Nancy. I'd love to give a massive thank you to Philip of Wits and Weights for his work with my 16-year-old daughter. When my 16-year-old came to me, you know she wanted some support with her nutrition. She wasn't happy with her body image and the trend that her weight was going. We were very concerned about what kind of help we could get for her, and all of those concerns were completely allayed by work with Philip. You know he was so respectful of any of our concerns. He adapted any of his programs to really fit working with a teen rather than the busy professionals that he normally works with. His coaching style really resonated with her and we're just literally so grateful that he has taught her so many of the skills and life habits that we hope now she'll take through her entire life so huge. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape: 28:33

You were talking about the elimination diet at first, getting in tune with your body. You mentioned things like stress. You mentioned inflammation. I don't know if you mentioned immunity gut immunity yet either, but maybe let's start from there the stress and the inflammation because that can get really fuzzy in the way influencers talk about this stuff. It's out to lunch speaking of quacks. Educate us.

Dr. William Ferro: 28:56

So the studies are out there, anxiety-related. So they're doing fecal transplants. Now, right, so you can take fecal transplants. They just launched a new study for autism where they showed promise in doing fecal transplants. So fecal transplant is taking the poop from somebody healthy and implant it to somebody who's unhealthy. They have studies on mice. You know overweight mice, skinny mice. They changed the fecal matter and the obese mice get skinny and skinny.

Dr. William Ferro: 29:20

So to me there's volumes of information to say, yeah, this gut health is real. What really gets me the most, though, is the father of modern medicine already told us this 2,500 years ago and said look well to the gut for the root of all disease. That's Hippocrates. He also said let food be thy medicine. So I just take those two as my standard, and the only other person that I watched and learned from.

Dr. William Ferro: 29:43

I got to see Jack LaLanne speak at one of the health and fitness trade shows, and I forget. Just like I told people, don't forget, it's not your fault. He said to me if man made it, don't eat it. And that's the simple principles behind it. Now, does that mean go run out and buy a probiotic? Does that mean that you have to go get your gut and your breath test to make no, no, no, no, no, no. Your body knows what to do. The best pharmacist or chemist is already here. You just have to get out of its way.

Dr. William Ferro: 30:11

And you're talking to a guy that I have supplements, I have probiotics and enzymes. The only reason why I did it is for it's like insurance. I want you to having kefir, I want you having kefir, I want you having sauerkraut, I want you to have real fermented foods that actually can help you repopulate the gut. But if you don't also eat the fiber, so when you eat apple and you're eating fibrous foods like salads, and even the proteins, it goes to your large intestines. Your body can't break it down, so it ferments. Well, that's a good thing, because that's what the bacteria live off of. So if you take, you know, some probiotic or the new fancy ones they have and say this is the greatest thing, it's like oh, did you eat an apple today? Because if you didn't, no prebiotic. Oh well, that's okay. I took this other powder, prebiotic fiber. I'm not in those things, I'm just saying it's sitting on your counter already, the prebiotic fiber. An orange, Just go grab that. It's going to have much more bioavailability than anything in a bottle.

Philip Pape: 31:03

Let's address that, because I totally agree and I think people overcomplicate this stuff and they try to fix everything with a pill and just eat more fiber, eat more types of fiber, diversity of fiber, and it tastes great and it fills you up and it's not very many calories. It's like everything win, win, win. I have a sweet tooth. All right, try some grapes or whatever. I know one question people talk about is if you've gone your whole life let's say 40, 50 years very bland diet, you have all these things against you in early childhood potentially. And is it possible that your gut bacteria is so wiped out and depleted that there's just not much there to feed? How do we restore that?

Dr. William Ferro: 31:40

So the refluorization happens, as I said, within seconds. The second you go to the store and go get kefir that has no blueberries in it strawberries right, a real good kefir, and so you can even make yourself home and you can have it infinitely for the rest of your life. Then you have an apple. That second, your ecosystem is already starting to get better, and then you just add on that. So it's very simple. It's step by step, minute by minute, day by day. Every cell, tissue and organ in the body is constantly replenishing themselves. So you'll see, on our website, when we talk about dramatic transformations and guaranteed jaw-dropping transformation, my jaw-dropping transformation isn't just that you have a good before and after picture. It's the fact that when I started, your refrigerator looked like a carnival and when I'm done, it looks like a farmer's market. And you mentioned something about cravings. What ends up happening is, as you just go step by step, day by day, your brain and gut start communicating it and they start craving good stuff. If you go through all my video testimony, people say I can't believe I'm eating more apples. I probably ate more apples in the last 21 days than I ate in the last 20 years, or I ate more and be like I don't know if I could do that, just give it three days, see the results, see how it goes. And then on the fourth day you're gonna say, all right, this is working. And then, day seven, 10, people say why does your skin look so good? Why is your hair so strong? The most intense thing that I've seen two intense things. Number one, by the elimination.

Dr. William Ferro: 33:09

There was a woman named Julie Hughes. She was working out at Eos Fitness. She had a personal trainer working out with them three times a week for a year, loved the trainer, loved the strength, loved the you know it was part of her lifestyle Didn't lose more than a pound. So what do we do when that happens? We don't blame the trainer, we don't blame the doctors, we blame the client. Oh, you must be out eating Chick-fil-A and all this other stuff when you leave there, which, of course, if you beat her up enough and her inflammation's high, she's going to crave Chick-fil-A after that workout. Not her fault. So, anyway, she does all this, but she stayed true to her diet, right, and if you looked at it, it was turkey, it was lean proteins, it was all the things that you could get on any magazine she was doing right. The trainer says, hey, go check the doctor. The doctor checks thyroid, checks the liver. You know thousands and thousands of dollars to check this woman out.

Dr. William Ferro: 33:52

She has outrageous anxiety and almost to the point of depression. And guess what happens? She starts getting gaslit into thinking there is something wrong with her, just like every person who's struggling with their weight. Everyone's struggling with oh you know what? It's just me, I have no willpower whatever. She goes on the program reluctantly. The trainer's like just try it Three days in. She's like okay, this is working. Four days in within 60 days she lost like 37 pounds. Great, high five. Whatever.

Dr. William Ferro: 34:18

I brought her in to talk to all the trainers at the gym. I flew out there and she said that wasn't it for me. The fact that I backed off on my exercise reset my internal system was what really started to get the weight off. But then my anxiety went away and I just could sleep and I had energy in the afternoon and those were the real non-scale victories that were great and I said okay, well, lastly, tell everybody here what you uncovered from your trigger foods right, the foods that actually weren't working well for her Quinoa, greek yogurt and raspberries. Every one of your listeners right now is probably like, yeah, I have Greek yogurt and I'm not saying it's bad, but it wasn't working for her. So unless humans as buff as you are on anyone go through an elimination like I, think you talk about this.

Dr. William Ferro: 35:03

It's about experimenting with yourself. Unless you go through this experiment, you'll probably never know. You'll probably be cycling through it. You'll probably fall for every bottle pill and fat out there because you're desperate, and then you'll be preyed on by guess what? The pharmaceutical industry. Who's going to say we got this GLP-1. We got this, and I'm not mad at you.

Dr. William Ferro: 35:25

People say, well, that's because people want a quick fix. Dude, we all want a quick fix. If my car breaks, I don't want the mechanic to take a month, I want to fix things to do. So you go get this GLP-1, which is basically the same chemical that's already made in the digestive system, the epithelial cells, and the one they made in the pharmaceutical lab is only 80% like that GLP-1. Or just let your body do it. And what we found? Our studies show that someone doing this protocol will lose double the weight in half the time and obviously at a fraction of the $1,000 a month that these stupid drugs are costing, and I guess stupid is not a great word. I understand why you're doing it, but if you're doing it you can come off of it. Help, of course, but getting you to think that outside in is the way to get your health. No, it's all inside out.

Philip Pape: 36:12

Yeah, I'm fully with you and we did an episode recently about all those drugs too, kind of the dark side of them and who may benefit or not. But yeah, I hear what you're saying there. So a few things. You mentioned First that fermented foods, fibrous foods, can help. I think the term you used was reflora-ize your gut Is that what you're saying? Like the flora of your gut. I think it is a big misunderstanding that you have to take probiotics to do that. So that's a good takeaway.

Philip Pape: 36:36

The second is the fact that this elimination diet if you've never done this before and honestly you're getting me to want to do one again Do it the way that you suggest, because I want to try that out Could be a game changer for the rest of your life, because now you know what your trigger foods are and they're not necessarily what everyone else's trigger foods are and you can't tell what they are until you do that right, until you get rid of them for a bit. Skin hair, you said looking better. All that, okay. Going back to the foods, what are the things you mentioned before? You said alcohol. That makes sense. Sugar there's a lot of debate about sugar and artificial sweeteners. What are your thoughts in general, and let's separate maybe the types of sugar so people don't lump fruit in there necessarily. What are your thoughts on those?

Dr. William Ferro: 37:15

So as soon as we say the word artificial, jack the Lane man made it, don't eat it. So it's like one of the hardest things, I think, for most people. Well, what about my coffee creamer and all this other stuff? And I said, look, put cream in it, put honey in it, put a natural form of sugar. If you need it, do it. If you can avoid it, great, you're going to get enough of those great sugars from the fruit that you're eating. So again, start with three good days, see how it goes. I think, as long as it's a natural sweetener, wives, don't listen to anything you say. I got too many stories about that, her coming home saying I think I should start doing something for my gut health. I saw something on Dr Phil. This was a long time ago. Not Dr Phil, dr Oz, and I'm like you know, this is what I do for a living.

Philip Pape: 37:56

Oh geez, Don't try to coach your wife. That's not going to work.

Dr. William Ferro: 37:59

Rule number one she was drinking those Zevias or the xylitol thing, and I'm like I know this is going to be the next worst thing out there. Just have it natural. If God made it, put it on this planet and it's not highly processed, that's your best bet. And my honey is a good way to go, if you can get a nice organic honey and put it in there and sweeten some things and what you'll see is that your gut bacteria, as it floralizes or refloralizes it, will crave just the right amount of everything. So I think you talked about like macros and micros before.

Dr. William Ferro: 38:27

Unless you're training, training, right, so I would come to you and say all right, listen, I got their baseline. This person's ready to start doing next level stuff. Yes, you got to do macros, you're training them, you're putting them through more strenuous stuff, so that's what you have to do. But for the regular Joe, your body's going to know what macros and micros to give. You crave it, just like when you get dehydrated. Someone can do a test and whatever tastes funny to you is what you're missing from a mineral standpoint.

Philip Pape: 38:53

Yeah, and I understand. So there's always a debate between intuitive eating and tracking, and my position is you can have both work together. It depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to change your body composition or your weight very deliberately in a certain period of time, the more precise you can do that, the better the outcome. And if you combine it with what you said eating the right foods for you, developing intuition, listening to your body while you do that you can kind of get the best of both, in my opinion.

Dr. William Ferro: 39:18

It starts with tracking, it gets back to intuition, totally agree.

Philip Pape: 39:27

Yeah, and you can always throw tracking back in or it depends on what you're tracking. And all that Cravings yeah, I think that's really important as well, because I think we make excuses for ourselves when it comes to emotional eating Again a big hot topic out there but oftentimes you're trying to solve the trauma from your childhood to fix emotional eating, and I don't think it has to be that way Most of the time, like you said, it could be cravings, it could be emotional hunger, that once you find things that work for you, that work well for you, you can kind of satisfy what the craving was satisfying right With something that works with you.

Dr. William Ferro: 39:54

For sure. So there is a chicken and egg scenario there. So in my opinion, if you do not first start with restoring the gut-brain connection, it's very difficult to have therapy emotional, mental therapy to actually work. So a good example would be go to a 22-year-old these days and say hey, how many of your friends are anxious and depressed? They'd say who is it?

Dr. William Ferro: 40:16

Well, 90% of your happy hormone, or one of your happy hormones, serotonin, is made in the gut, and so we've been giving kids SSRI uptake inhibitors forever, not doing anything. The same way that when someone has acid reflux, we tamper down, we give an anti-acid. Acid reflux is your body saying I'm not breaking this food down properly, I'm trying to produce more acid to get the job done and you're bringing it down. You're not doing anything. So when it comes to this gaslighting of someone who has anxiety, depression, like well, I want to first just focus on your digestive health, get the soil right, and then, when you start to unpack those traumas, you're ready for it. And then, when you start to do those things that can bring to the, your body can absorb it much stronger, just like it can absorb nutrients much better if your digestive system's working.

Philip Pape: 41:09

So it all comes back to the gut, love it. So then, another question for health with a lot of folks today is autoimmune conditions, everything from Hashimoto's for the thyroid to rheumatoid arthritis. Right, just how much of that is tied into the gut, do we think?

Dr. William Ferro: 41:21

So I'll just say this If you go on a website of any autoimmune and say what is the etiology of Crohn? No one knows right, there's no known etiology for all these conditions. They're just we observe a certain thing that's going on with the human for three or more months and call it a chronic condition. And then we have markers. Right, there's some markers.

Philip Pape: 41:41

Antibodies and stuff. Yeah, antibodies.

Dr. William Ferro: 41:43

Markers. In my experience, things like PCOS women who all of a sudden realize they have PCOS. They can't lose weight, they have very tough times with fertility, fertility rates or infertility rates are going up. Some of the best. We have Carolina Conceptions here locally. They've been sending members to us forever and this was by accident. My neighbor was like hey, I did your program. Did you know? I was having trouble conceiving and getting pregnant and I actually was able to get pregnant naturally, after trying IVF and all this other stuff.

Dr. William Ferro: 42:11

Anytime you bring inflammation down the body, you reduce insulin resistance. Of course you can reverse type 2 diabetes, but all of this plays into a woman's hormones, the autoimmune issues, most of the time. So what got me frustrated as a chiro is we're doing all this work on somebody and their pain was getting better for a short period of time. Why is that was? Were we bad? Did we not know the right motions? Were they not? Was the member not doing the right? No, they have systemic inflammation. Inflammation is the root of all pain and so you don't get rid of that. You're going to be chasing pain all your whole life. So 100% is a correlation there. And of course, go just go back to Hippocrates, look well to the gut for the root of all disease. And if you're going to talk autoimmune, which is just seems to be getting higher and higher each year, glycophosphate Roundup Ready. You know 50 years. It's 50 year anniversary of Roundup glycophosphate in our agriculture and it's got into everything.

Philip Pape: 43:04

Everything, yeah, everything, yeah. I eat a lot of oatmeal and I get organic. For that reason, for the oatmeal, I know.

Philip Pape: 43:11

Okay, yeah, man, I have a million other things I could get to here, so I'm trying to keep the list narrow for the interest of time. But you mentioned exercise and I totally get and again I talk about this as well like too much cardio, too much movement. Your body sometimes has a response, a negative response, to that because you're overstressing it, especially when you're not in a relaxed state to begin with. But what about strength training? Like, where does that fit in? Is there any tie-in that you look into related to lifting weights, especially heavy weights, and the gut health?

Dr. William Ferro: 43:41

Yeah. So that's why my relationships with people like you and with the gyms is that I'm really good at this 30 day. Let me just help you reset your lifestyle. Let me reset your movement. What will happen is, as your energy comes up, some weird thing is going to happen. There was a time that we used to drag you from the gym. Now we're going to have to drag you out. And now you're going to say, oh, now I know what it's like to be like a gym rat, because you always thought that gym rats had some type of mental superiority over everybody else. Their system was working properly. So as you start to add those foods that give you that more energy I think you talked about it more fuel to do more things, then you start craving it.

Dr. William Ferro: 44:20

So, if you come in, strength training is one of the strength and flexibility, right. So you're either training for strength for today, but also at my age I'm about to turn 50. I'm turning 75 right now. So strength training, without a doubt. You know people, when they work out, right, you put weight. You're like, yeah, I'm building muscle, but you're also building bone, right. So that is for strength wise, especially for females and put weight. You're like, yeah, I'm building muscle, but you're also building bone, right? So that is for strength-wise, especially for females and males alike. You really want to do a strength training and do it the right way with a professional. If it's in your budget, get a professional. Everybody in the world who has a coach on anything does better. When it comes to fitness, it is the most important thing. What they can accomplish in a 15-minute session. You'd be walking around the gym for 45 minutes doing this every set 100% man, 100%.

Philip Pape: 45:10

Yeah, you're going to learn what it would have taken you three years of trial and error in one session. Very important, okay. So those listening yet another reason to do what Dr Farrow is saying to get this reset so that you can have a better aligned nutrition. Gives you fuel, gives you energy, and then you want to go into the gym and now you have another craving and that is lifting weights and being active. So we love to have that. And then it's not willpower, it's not like an excuse, a punishment, a thing you have to do, it's a thing you really want to do and can't stop doing, which is fun. What about pets? So we have two dogs, we have hamsters, chickens I've heard a lot of good things about pets and gut health.

Dr. William Ferro: 45:46

Yeah, so they are bringing something to your environment, right, soil, probably from the outside, which is probably the best. You're petting them against some soil. So I think that I'm not an expert on this, but I've thought about that too. My pup is sitting over there. I think the endorphin release you get from petting a pet is probably the one that's going to calm the gut down the most, and so, without a doubt, I think it's a positive. Now, it also could be negative.

Dr. William Ferro: 46:11

So I had people go through the protocol and they're following it. When I go through these 10 triage things that I've learned, like sleep, water, all the things I mentioned, rotating proteins, not eating enough Then I go all right, we exhausted that list. Why is this person on a stall? They have bowel movements, everything's going. What's the stall? What's the plateau? Well, I just moved into a new apartment. Ah, what did they have? Is it carpet? Yeah, are you allergic to anything? I'm allergic to cats. Well, they probably had a cat, you know. So, when it comes to certain people, it could actually be a health detractor and could cause inflammation and couldn't make it difficult for them to see results in their health, because it's just another environmental factor that's causing issues.

Philip Pape: 46:56

Yeah, fair enough. I used to be allergic to cats and then we got cats and the allergy went away and it all worked out, but I definitely know what that's like.

Dr. William Ferro: 47:03

Points too. So like there's some people that start my protocol and say I can't have dairy, like don't even try it, and I say, okay, well, let's just go through 21 days and let's just bring it back in. But let's bring a high quality dairy in and see what happens. They go. Oh my God, my body's fine. Same thing with gluten. We have people that think that they're sensitive to gluten, but when they get rid of it for a little bit and they bring it back in, they bring a high quality one, one that's not got garbage in it, maybe fresh baked or start with sourdough type things they go. Oh, wow, I can now enjoy this finally.

Philip Pape: 47:33

Yeah, it's so true, and I suspect that even one of the things we track with digestion is, even in the moment, the things you're eating. If you could eat mindfully. I suspect there's a lot of awareness of how things make you feel. That gets amplified through this process, because now it's like you totally got rid of it and now you're boom, adding it in. You can detect that easily, yeah, okay. So I'd like to ask this of all guests, doc, and that is is there a question you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Dr. William Ferro: 48:04

That's a great question about a question you wish I had asked, and what is your answer? That's a great question about a question. This is what I'd like to leave with, because I wanted to give them practical stuff. I hate to like be the well. Only if you sign up with us, then you can. If you go to better healthcom, b-e-t-r healthcom you can go and find under our blogs I think it is it's the very first blog always is it's pinned and basically it's like the whole protocol is laid out what to eat, how to eat. You can get it for free. You can go download it all for free.

Dr. William Ferro: 48:31

The only thing I'm offering is part of the community, a coach, like I mentioned, to give that guidance, planning and, of course, accountability. Man, it's always just helpful to have that accountability. And then, of course, the technology, the AI stuff. It's phenomenal for tracking, but you can absolutely do this yourself and you could literally start right now. You could go on there and just start following those things and I bet you you'll feel different very quickly.

Dr. William Ferro: 48:54

The only thing I ask you to do if you're going to do it is if you get prepared. Let's say you're so gung ho, you go to the 24 hour grocery. Get all stuff, weigh yourself first thing in the morning, no clothes on. Now don't do that in your kitchen or in the front room just yet. Do it in the bathroom, weigh yourself and then, literally for yourself, take pictures of everything you eat off of that list. Track your sleep, track your bowel movements, check all those data elements and do it for three days and you will see such quick success that you will be amplified. Say all right, I think I can follow us.

Dr. William Ferro: 49:26

It's a simple procedure, it's not rocket science, and we've been helping people reverse type 2 diabetes. We're covered by, you know, not only a direct consumer where people can pay out of pocket. We're covered by Blue Shield of California, florida Blue. I work that hard by getting them to do pay for performance. But some of the craziest things I've seen. We had a woman, 72 years old. She was on metformin, she was on Wegovy. She came off of all that and she loved it. She was down I don't know 30 pounds, whatever the poundage was, all these other great non-skill victories and she said, doc, I'm starting to get headaches and my vision's blurry, oh man. So I went through all my resources, couldn't figure it out. She went to three primary care. Finally, she goes to the eye doctor. Eye doctor says your prescriptions changed, oh. And I said okay, that makes sense.

Dr. William Ferro: 50:13

She said no, it got better oh interesting and then when you start googling blood sugar and insulin and I, you know, you know, your you start to see that how you eat can affect your vision within days and it seems like such a miracle. But it's like then we step back, like oh duh, like yeah, of course, right From every cell in your body will start to get better instantly. As soon as you start focusing on nourishing the gut. You are instantly better.

Philip Pape: 50:43

It makes total sense. Well, thank you for that. That's super powerful for folks to go to betterhealthcom and get that article, and it ties in with a lot of what we talk about here, and a lot of people are already going to be weighing themselves and tracking. So this little extra step of the elimination diet to kind of reset yourself could be super helpful. I'm going to go find that myself and shamelessly borrow from that as well for my clients and send them your way too if they need it, and the medical tie-in and insurance is all really, really great. So I think you already answered my next question, which is where can listeners find you? I think you want them to go to betterhealthcom, right?

Dr. William Ferro: 51:14

Absolutely.

Philip Pape: 51:15

Okay, is there anyone else on social that they can reach out, or is that the best place?

Dr. William Ferro: 51:18

That's the best place. I know we have Instagram and stuff, but that's not my, not your bag. However, I'm going to put you on the spot here, so are you now going to become a guest on my podcast?

Philip Pape: 51:28

Let's do it All right. Yeah, all right. Of course we're going to do it. Yeah, cool, absolutely.

Dr. William Ferro: 51:35

I don't know what we're going to talk about, but it'll be fun.

Philip Pape: 51:38

It's going to be all fitness. We follow the Quacks and Hypochondriacs podcast and you'll get that episode as well.

Dr. William Ferro: 51:45

All right, Doc, thanks so much for coming on. It was a pleasure, my pleasure, it's fun talking to you.

Eat More To Lose Weight? (The Iron Triangle of Fat Loss) | Ep 204

Just eat more food and you'll lose the weight!

This advice has been floating around the fitness industry for years and it still persists. Today, we are going to use an engineering concept called the Iron Triangle to show why this idea doesn't hold up.

What looks like "eating more" might actually be your first step toward effective fat loss, but not for the reasons you might expect.

To learn more about losing fat sustainably, join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email

Main Takeaways:

• The Fat Loss Iron Triangle (Energy, Sustainability, Speed) reveals why "eat more to lose weight" advice often fails. You can't optimize all three factors at once.

• Accurate calorie tracking is crucial. Many who think they're undereating are actually consuming more than they realize, leading to stalled progress.

• Sustainable fat loss requires finding your personal balance within the Iron Triangle, prioritizing consistent, moderate progress over extreme measures.

Episode Mentioned:

• Your Very First Cut (Lose 10-30 Pounds of Fat) | Ep 197

Episode summary:

We take a deep dive into the persistent myth that eating more can lead to weight loss. This notion has permeated the fitness industry, creating confusion and frustration for many. Through a comprehensive examination of energy balance, metabolism, and the engineering principle of the iron triangle, this episode aims to set the record straight.

The episode begins by addressing the widespread belief that increasing calorie intake can somehow accelerate weight loss. Philip Pape uses the iron triangle concept—comprising cost, quality, and schedule—to illustrate the fallacies in this idea. Just as in project management, where optimizing one aspect often compromises another, the same applies to fat loss. The iron triangle's principles are applied to managing energy intake (cost), sustainability (quality), and rate of fat loss (schedule).

Heather's journey is a poignant example of how misguided coaching can exacerbate confusion. Misunderstandings about energy balance and metabolism often lead people to believe they are eating too little, when in fact, they are not accurately tracking their calorie intake. Heather's story underscores the importance of precise calorie tracking and how a perceived increase in food intake often results from more balanced eating habits rather than simply eating more.

The episode then delves into the complexities of energy balance, emphasizing that a calorie deficit is essential for fat loss. The notion that eating more will boost metabolism and lead to fat loss is debunked by highlighting the importance of accurate calorie tracking. When individuals begin to track their calories meticulously, they often discover they are consuming more than they realized. This newfound awareness allows for better dietary adjustments, which can seem like an increase in food intake but is actually a move towards a balanced diet.

The iron triangle's relevance to fat loss is further explored by breaking down its three components. Energy, or calorie intake and expenditure, is the foundation of fat loss. A calorie deficit is necessary, but it must be balanced with sustainability and rate of loss. Sustainability refers to how well one can adhere to a fat loss plan over time. An overly aggressive calorie deficit might lead to faster results but is often unsustainable due to increased hunger and lower energy levels.

Rate of loss is the third component, where a moderate, sustainable rate of loss is emphasized. Rapid weight loss can lead to muscle loss and other negative health impacts, making it crucial to find a balanced approach. The episode advocates for a moderate calorie deficit that allows for muscle preservation and overall well-being.

Consistency and realistic goal-setting are highlighted as the secrets to long-term success. The importance of setting achievable goals and maintaining consistent efforts cannot be overstated. Listeners are encouraged to focus on sustainable practices rather than quick fixes, which often lead to frustration and setbacks.

The episode also tackles the psychological aspects of weight loss. The belief that eating more will lead to weight loss often stems from misunderstandings about calorie tracking. When people start tracking their calories accurately, they become more aware of their actual intake, leading to better dietary habits. This newfound awareness can make it seem like they are eating more, but in reality, they are simply eating the right amount for fat loss.

Philip Pape's engineering background adds a unique perspective to the discussion. By applying the iron triangle principle to fat loss, he provides a structured framework that helps listeners understand the trade-offs involved in any weight loss strategy. This approach encourages a more analytical and evidence-based mindset, moving away from oversimplified and misleading advice.

In summary, this episode of Wits and Weights offers a comprehensive guide to debunking the 'Eat More, Lose Weight' myth. By examining the concepts of energy balance, metabolism, and the iron triangle, listeners gain valuable insights into effective fat loss strategies. Heather's story serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of misguided coaching and the importance of accurate calorie tracking. The episode underscores the necessity of a sustainable, moderate calorie deficit to preserve muscle mass and overall well-being. Consistency and realistic goal-setting are emphasized as the keys to long-term success.

For anyone struggling with conflicting weight loss advice, this episode provides clarity and actionable steps to achieve fat loss goals effectively. By focusing on the right balance of energy intake, sustainability, and rate of loss, listeners can navigate their weight loss journey with confidence and achieve lasting results.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:03

Just eat more food and you'll lose the weight.

Philip Pape: 0:06

Have you ever heard that advice? All you got to do is eat more calories and the weight's just going to start flying off. This advice has been floating around the fitness industry for years and it still persists. Today, we are going to use an engineering concept called the iron triangle to show why this idea doesn't hold up. This claim doesn't hold up. We'll explore how misunderstandings whether it's energy balance or other elements behind the scenes are leading to people continuing to make this claim. You'll learn why.

Philip Pape: 0:35

What looks like eating more might actually be your first step toward effective fat loss, but not for the reasons you might expect. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're breaking down the eat more to lose weight idea or, shall I say, myth using a principle again straight from engineering the iron triangle, also called the project management triangle or the cost quality schedule triangle. This notion that eating more will boost your metabolism, will speed up fat loss, has become very popular, and it often comes from a misunderstanding, namely of how many calories we are actually eating and actually burning. Just this week, I talked to somebody in one of the communities I'm in who didn't realize that your metabolism adapts and changes, and that's just one of the misunderstandings going on. Today we'll uncover how people who think they're eating too little often find out they're eating more than they thought once they start tracking accurately. And that's the discovery that can make it seem like you are eating more to lose weight, when really you're just finally eating the right amount for fat loss. I do want to give a quick shout out to listener Heather M, because Heather sent me a message about struggling with this advice that inspired today's episode, and her experience shows the confusion that many people face with calorie tracking and weight loss plateaus. Let's break down this myth using our engineering lens and uncover the truth about calories, metabolism and effective fat loss in the context of the eat more to lose weight advice.

Philip Pape: 2:31

Now, this advice usually pops up when someone has been dieting for a while and then they hit a plateau, they stop losing weight, and then they hear this idea hey, you're probably just not eating enough, you need to eat more. If you eat more, you'll boost your metabolism and you'll start losing fat again. And it sounds very appealing, right, and it sounds like one of those. Ooh, I didn't realize that that must be it, especially when people put the label science-based or evidence-based and yes, I use those labels as well, but it's often used as a bait and switch to get you into their coaching program to say, look, all you've got to do is eat more food. Doesn't that sound great? But this is an oversimplified approach. And then it makes you more frustrated and confused when it doesn't work, or doesn't work like you expect, or you get blamed by your coach for not hitting the exact number. And then, oh, you didn't hit your exact. You know 1953 calories that I told you to hit. You're over by five or 10 and that's why it's not working. And specifically, I'm talking about a real person here who wrote in again Heather. She was told to eat 2000 calories a day and when she went over by even five or 10, she was criticized for overeating, right. And this is ridiculous. Like I can't imagine coaching somebody and being that much of an a-hole about it and blaming the client in that way. And this, this is ridiculous. Like I can't imagine coaching somebody and being um, that much of an a-hole about it and blaming the client in that way and obviously the guy had no idea what he was talking about. And that's why I have a podcast, um, to kind of dispel these things, because this kind of advice is nonsense and it doesn't work and it's not going to be consistent and it causes so much confusion. And so here's what we're going to do today I'm going to introduce something called the iron triangle and then we're going to apply it to this concept In engineering, in engineering project management specifically, the iron triangle represents the balance between three factors that effectively compete with each other cost, quality and schedule.

Philip Pape: 4:23

And the principle states that you cannot optimize all three simultaneously. If you improve one, it often means compromising on another. And so let's apply this concept to fat loss and its overall energy and calorie situation. First, we have cost. What is cost in our case? In our case, cost is energy your calories consumed, right, what you eat, your calorie intake and your calories burned or expenditure. So it's just the balance of energy that is your cost. Okay, the cost generally thinking in fat loss, your cost is the deficit that you're in to be able to get that fat loss.

Philip Pape: 4:59

The second leg of the triangle is quality. In our case, that quality is sustainability. It's how well you can adhere to the plan long-term, how high quality the plan is so that you could actually adhere to it and get it done. And then the third leg is schedule, or time, and in our case that is our rate of loss, how quick we're going to go and lose the fat. Right, and just as in engineering, we can't optimize all three.

Philip Pape: 5:23

So think about engineering. If you want to go faster, if you want to create the product faster, it's going to cost more. It's going to cost more in terms of people and overtime in getting suppliers to send you parts faster. So you're going to have to compromise by costing more. Or if you want to go faster, you might have to lower the quality, you might have to reduce some of the requirements and not get as many bells and whistles in your product or software. So, similarly, we can't optimize our energy balance and our sustainability and our rate of loss. In other words, we can't eat 5,000 calories and lose fat or we can't go at a super fast rate of loss, like lose three pounds a week and maintain a decent amount of energy right, we'd have to be in an extreme deficit to do that, right, or we'd have to compromise, sustainability and quality, because it's so hard to do it. So it's the same idea. And let's just break each of these down so you can see what this has to do with the eating more to lose weight.

Philip Pape: 6:27

Let's start with energy, energy, calorie, energy balance right, this is your cost. Okay, this is the foundation of fat loss. It's the foundation of changing your body mass, right, from a nutrition perspective. We're not even going to talk about strength training or specific macros. We're just talking about changing body mass. Your body needs a certain amount of energy to function and especially to function optimally. Right, that's where the compromise comes in. Like, we know we need a calorie deficit to lose weight, but if the calorie deficit's too high, we're going to start influencing negatively our hormones, we're going to lose energy, we're going to crash and burn, we're going to have cravings, we're not going to be able to adhere. Our sustainability is going to go down, right. So the size of your calorie deficit directly impacts the other two factors your sustainability and your rate of loss. Right Now let's talk about eating more.

Philip Pape: 7:17

A slight increase in calories can sometimes help in terms of your energy, your metabolism, your hormones right. But if you'd simply do so without regard for energy balance, it's not going to lead to fat loss, unless you're in a deficit. You're not going to lose fat period period. You still have to be in a calorie deficit, all right, so let's set that aside for now. That's the first leg in the iron triangle.

Philip Pape: 7:42

The second leg is our quality leg, sustainability, and this refers to how well you can adhere to your fat loss plan, both short-term and long-term. Right Meaning by long-term, I mean if it's going to take many weeks, we want to stick to it. But even in the short term, we don't want it to totally rip us apart within a week or two and then we give up. A more aggressive deficit might lead to faster results, but it could be harder to sustain due to increased hunger, lower energy, the impact to your social life and how neurotic and obsessive you have to be about all the tracking and effectively saying no to things. Right, we don't want to be in that state. This is where many people stumble. When they're told to eat more, they might again feel better temporarily because they have more energy, maybe they're no longer in a low energy state. But then, if it puts them out of a deficit, if it puts them up to their maintenance calories or higher, it's not going to give them the fat loss. It's not going to be sustainable for fat loss either. Interesting, right, it goes both ways. That's the second leg.

Philip Pape: 8:44

The third leg is your time, your schedule, which, in our case, is how fast we lose weight or lose fat. This is how quickly we go, our rate of loss. And, yes, a larger deficit will lead to faster fat loss, but it might compromise sustainability, right, because it's just too fast, you don't get to eat very much, you become hangry and miserable and it could potentially lead to muscle loss, which is even more dangerous. When we talk about fat loss, we don't want to lose muscle. If we go too fast, we're going to lose muscle. So when we go back to, should you eat more to lose weight?

Philip Pape: 9:17

It often ignores all of these factors, right, but it essentially promises a violation of the iron triangle. It promises quick results without a cost, right, and the sustainability kind of falls in between, because of course, eating more is gonna be more sustainable, but it's not gonna give you fat loss. So we have to balance all of these, that we consider the rate of loss along with the other two factors. So how do we do that right. So if we're violating the iron triangle with this nonsense claim that you can eat more and lose weight, how do we apply the iron triangle to make it effective? All right Again, let's start with energy, with cost. Instead of eating more, why don't we focus on eating the right amount, which means we have to actually create a deficit that aligns with our goals? And the only way to do that is to track and measure. And so here's where I'm going to talk about.

Philip Pape: 10:12

The biggest, I'll say, cause of people giving this advice is that you are typically okay. Let's put it this way. Let's say you do eat more and you start to lose weight. Is it because you ate more? No, it's because you think you're eating more. Why do you think you're eating more? Because you probably weren't tracking your calories accurately in the past. Now you are, and now that you know what you are eating, you probably start to tighten up what you eat in response to trying to hit certain targets, and you feel better and you have more protein, right. And now you set the deficit that you actually want and it seems like you're eating more than you were before, but you're actually eating the accurate amount because of your tracking. And another reason for this is usually, when you are not tracking, you're binging on the weekends, right, and you're starving yourselves during the week. When you start tracking, you start to balance that out and it seems like every day you're actually eating a little more because on most days you probably are, and on it seems like every day you're actually eating a little more because on most days you probably are, and on the weekends you're eating a lot less than you were, and the net effect for the average for the week is a deficit. Okay, a lot of this is mental. So, as far as energy goes, you have to know what your maintenance calories are and what your deficit needs to be.

Philip Pape: 11:26

Go listen to my recent episode called your First Cut Lose 10 to 30 pounds of fat, something like that, your first cut. And I talk about these principles. All right, the second part of the triangle we can apply is the sustainability or the quality piece. This is where we choose a deficit that you can maintain consistently over time. It may be a slower rate of loss than you quote unquote want, right, but it will lead to you sticking with it and getting the result. I think I posted a threads post recently. It said something like.

Philip Pape: 11:56

Unsuccessful people will say I need to lose 20 pounds in eight weeks. A successful person will say how fast can I go where it's sustainable and I can do it? And then, how long will it take me to lose 20 pounds? Right, there's a difference between the two. The third leg of the triangle, then, is the rate of loss, the time right, understanding that faster isn't always better. Effectively, what I just said a moderate, sustainable rate of loss, like half a percent of your body weight a week. That is what leads to you getting the outcome and sticking with it.

Philip Pape: 12:29

And now you've got the triangle nicely balanced between energy, sustainability and time, and you could actually get there, rather than this weird, nebulous, uncertain state you were in before, where you're like I don't really know what I'm eating. I feel hungry sometimes, not others. I'm probably binging on the weekends, but I'm not sure how much alcohol I had at the Mexican restaurant. This fit pro, 22 year old, on Instagram, says I just need to eat more to lose weight. And lo and behold, I start eating more and I lose weight. Well, not really Right, or you probably don't, actually, because you weren't accurately tracking before, and now you are All right. So the problem isn't that you're eating too little, it's you're not accurately tracking what you're eating, right?

Philip Pape: 13:15

I've had clients come to me convinced they're eating 1200 calories a day and not losing weight. Right, I'm just. I've cut my calories so low I'm down to 1100. I'm still not losing weight. One of the first questions I ask is are you tracking? And usually the answer is, well, no. But and right there I know what the problem is. And so when we implement precise tracking, we discover they're consuming much more on average per day. Right. On average, it might be 1100 calories Monday through Friday, and then 2000 calories on Saturday and Sunday. Right, and so sometimes it's you know, hundreds of calories more than what they thought, hundreds of calories more than what they thought.

Philip Pape: 13:51

And that is why the eat more advice is so, so dangerous and so misleading. Because if you're already eating more than you realize, if you just indiscriminately add more calories, it's going to move you further from your goal, you're going to start drifting up in weight. And now you're going to say what the F? You know what is going on. That's nonsense, and it is, and if you can understand this and understand the iron triangle, that there is a, there's a balance between cost, quality and schedule or, in our, our cases I'm sorry, in our case energy balance, sustainability and rate of loss. Ah then, instead of blindly following advice to eat more, you find the right balance of those three things for your specific situation. So let me just recap Eat more to lose weight is an oversimplification and usually completely false. The iron triangle energy, sustainability, rate of loss helps us understand the trade-offs involved in any weight loss strategy. Success comes from balancing these three, not from just increasing calories. And then tying this all together is accurate tracking and measuring, which is crucial to understand your true energy balance so that you can make informed decisions.

Philip Pape: 15:07

All right, if today's episode resonated with you, if you found it interesting, if you're like, oh, I never thought of it that way before. The iron triangle, that's pretty cool, or ah, now I understand why eating more to lose weight isn't what I thought it was, or why it may or may not work, depending on your situation. I want you to just share this episode with a friend who's been struggling with the conflicting advice out there. We are skeptics of the industry here. I want more people to be I'll call it enlightened, but really just to be inquisitive and curious, asking these questions and getting answers that apply to them, that have the nuance and context necessary to make them work in practice. So share it with a friend.

Philip Pape: 15:47

If you want to take that next step and really, really support me, please give me a five-star rating and review. In Apple and Spotify, we don't get enough of those. Very few people actually take the time to do that. I understand there's friction involved, but it really doesn't take long. Just go right now in your podcast app as you're listening to me right this moment scroll down to where it says write a review. Click that button and give it five stars and type a little blurb just what's on your mind. Hey, I love how this show XYZ done send. I would really appreciate it. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that in fat loss, as in engineering, it's all about finding the right balance. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Why Women Get Bigger, Leaner, and Sexier But Not "Bulky" From Lifting Heavy Weights | Ep 203

Is the fear of getting bulky holding you back from lifting heavy weights? Are you confused by all the mixed messages about how strength training affects a woman’s body? Do you wonder if strength training will give you that lean, toned look or make you bulk up?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) shatters the myths and uncovers the truth about how lifting really impacts your physique. Whether you’re aiming for a lean, toned look or worried about bulking up, he sets the record straight and empowers you to lift with confidence.

Philip breaks down the science of how lifting weights impacts women’s bodies. He explains how muscle growth, when combined with proper nutrition, actually contributes to a leaner, more defined look. Philip also addresses the role of cardio in your training regimen and offers tips for balancing it with strength training to optimize your results.

If you're ready to transform your physique and boost your confidence, this is a must-listen!

📩 To learn how to balance cardio and lifting, a weird little trick to burn more calories from cardio, and a sample weekly training plan to combine lifting and cardio for maximum results and recovery, join my FREE email list and ask for my “Cardio for Lifters” guide: https://witsandweights.com/email

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:41 Listener question about lifting and body composition
5:10 Muscle growth and body changes
8:10 Eating for muscle gain without adding excessive fat
11:38 Peri or post menopause and RED-S
13:57 How to efficiently incorporate cardio into your routine
20:36 Muscle as a fat-loss accelerator

Related episodes:

• My Stair-Step Fat Loss Process to Get Lean and Ripped

• How to Get More Fitness Results for Less Effort (The Pareto Rule)

• Energy, Workout Nutrition, and Performance-Based Strength for Women Over 40

Episode summary:

Are you hesitant to lift weights because you're worried about getting bulky? It's time to debunk this pervasive myth and unlock the incredible benefits of strength training for women. In this episode, Philip Pape dives deep into the science behind muscle growth, the role of testosterone, and why women can confidently embrace resistance training without the fear of excessive muscle mass.

Understanding the impact of strength training on women's bodies is crucial. Contrary to popular belief, lifting heavy weights won't turn you into a bodybuilder overnight. Women simply don't have the testosterone levels necessary to build massive muscles without extreme effort and often pharmaceutical assistance. Instead, strength training helps women achieve a toned, strong physique that is both aesthetically pleasing and functionally powerful.

One of the key points Philip emphasizes is the importance of progressive overload and a slight calorie surplus in supporting muscle growth. By gradually increasing the weight you lift and ensuring you're consuming enough calories to fuel your workouts, you can build lean muscle without gaining unwanted fat. This approach not only enhances your physical appearance but also boosts your metabolic rate, making it easier to maintain a healthy body composition in the long run.

Nutrition plays a vital role in the muscle-building process. Philip discusses the significance of consuming adequate protein and balancing your macronutrients to support muscle growth while maintaining a calorie deficit for fat loss. He also addresses common concerns about eating enough to support muscle growth without gaining excessive fat, emphasizing that a slight calorie surplus, when done correctly, can lead to lean muscle gain with minimal fat accumulation.

In addition to strength training, the episode explores effective fat loss strategies. Philip highlights the importance of a moderate calorie deficit, proper nutrient timing, and sustainable practices to preserve muscle and energy levels while losing fat. He warns against the pitfalls of extreme dieting methods, which can lead to muscle loss and decreased energy levels, and instead advocates for a balanced approach that includes alternating between calorie deficits and maintenance phases.

Cardio is another crucial component of a well-rounded fitness regimen. However, it's essential to balance cardio and strength training to achieve optimal results. Philip suggests incorporating efficient conditioning methods like supersets and circuit training into your strength workouts to maximize calorie burn and improve cardiovascular health without feeling overwhelmed. He also emphasizes that cardio should complement, not compete with, your strength training efforts.

Throughout the episode, Philip addresses real-world questions and concerns from listeners, such as Valerie F., who shares her struggles with conflicting advice on diet and exercise. By providing practical solutions and evidence-based insights, Philip aims to empower women to embrace strength training with confidence and clarity.

To further support your fitness journey, Philip offers a free "Cardio for a Lifter's Guide," which provides valuable tips on effectively combining cardio and strength training. This guide is designed to help you maximize your fitness potential and achieve your goals without sacrificing your progress or well-being.

In summary, this episode of Wits and Weights is a must-listen for any woman looking to transform her body through smart strength training. By debunking the myth that lifting weights makes women bulky and providing actionable strategies for muscle growth, fat loss, and overall fitness, Philip Pape empowers listeners to unlock their full potential and embrace the benefits of resistance training. Tune in now and take the first step towards a stronger, leaner, and more confident you!

📲 Send me a text message!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Imagine wanting to transform your body through strength training, through lifting heavy weights, only to hear conflicting advice at every turn, like lifting makes you bulky or no, it actually makes you smaller. Meanwhile, you're left wondering will I get the lean, toned look I want, or am I doomed to look like a bodybuilder, assuming that's a bad thing? But in today's episode we're cutting through the noise. We're exposing the truth about how lifting weights really affects a woman's body. You'll discover why the fear of getting bulky is misplaced and how heavy resistance training can actually help you achieve that coveted lean, sexy physique, even if there is an aspect of getting bigger but not bulky. Whether you're a lifting novice you're just getting started or you are an advanced, intermediate to advanced trainee, this episode will reshape your understanding of the physical, how muscle metabolism and the female form all come together, and then you can embrace the iron with confidence and with purpose. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling a very hot topic that comes up all the time. It's caused more confusion than almost any other how lifting weights truly impacts a woman's body? Now, yes, I am a man, but I've worked with many women and I get asked this question all the time, particularly when I go on podcasts that are geared toward women audiences, and I think it's really important, because we received yet another question from a listener about this, who I'm going to give a shout out to in just a bit, but before we dive in, I do have something special that I think is going to help you out, because part of the discussion today is around cardio and how cardio interacts with lifting weights, and so I created this guide for private clients called Cardio for Lifters, and I'm giving it to you for free as a podcast listener. In this guide, you'll discover how to effectively combine cardio and strength training a weird trick to burn more calories through cardio, not what you think, not just doing more cardio and a sample weekly training plan that balances the two for maximum results and recovery. So if you want the free copy of this Cardio for Lifters guide, join my email list, go to witsandweightscom, slash email or click the link in the show notes. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in the show notes, and then, when you're on the list, just send me an email and say hey, can I have the Cardio for Lifters guide and I will send it right over. This is not publicly available, it's only for listeners. So you get the inside secret link here if you reach out and I will send it over to you.

Philip Pape: 2:46

All right, so let's get into today's topic, which was inspired by a listener, valerie F. She is a longtime listener Actually, I don't know how long she's been listening, but she's definitely been active in our community and reaching out, which I absolutely love hearing from listeners and she inspired this episode. Valerie, like many of you listening, many of you women listening has been barred with the conflicting information about lifting weights, strength training, body composition, health, all the things, not to mention diets and cardio and all of that, and she wrote the following quote that I think encompasses the confusion out there on this topic. She said quote basically, I need to focus on strength training and eating in a deficit, while also eating enough protein to lose fat, but also do a lot of intense cardio to keep my heart healthy and eat lots of fiber and vegetables and protein, but still be in a deficit, but also not be in an energy depleted state, because that's bad, but don't worry, because my muscles will get tighter but also bigger when I weight train. End quote. And again, I think I love that part of the quote. She actually gave me a pretty detailed email of like this expert says this. This expert says this you have one person saying that cardio won't make you bulky, but you have, like Steph Gaudreau, who was on the show, saying, well, it actually does make you bigger and we should embrace that, but like what does it all mean and what does it look like? Like what do you do Right?

Philip Pape: 4:08

So let's start by tackling the big myth that usually gets asked is does it make you bulky? That lifting weights makes women bulky, and this is a very outdated idea, but it still persists. And here's the truth Women lack the testosterone levels necessary to build massive muscles anyway without extreme effort and often some pharmaceutical assistance. Right, women start during puberty with I'm not going to call it a disadvantage, it's just factually less muscle. And yet women can build the same percentage of muscle throughout their life, but they can't. And yet women can build the same percentage of muscle throughout their life, but they can't.

Philip Pape: 4:49

I mean, the joke is I can't even get big and I try. I lift weights a lot and I've made a lot of strides from my 30s to 40s when I did this right and I'm a guy with decent testosterone levels yes, I've had it checked and even I can't get big. So to even get afraid of being bulky from that context it is kind of ridiculous. And I don't mean that as an insult, I just, if you step back and think about it, you realize, oh yeah, actually that's kind of insane. But let's really get into it here. What actually happens when women lift heavy weights? What happens? They get stronger right. Their muscles then do grow Absolutely, but this growth is nothing like what you see in a professional bodybuilder or even somebody who's fairly quote unquote large and bulky like what you wouldn't normally see in a woman. Instead, it creates that coveted toned look.

Philip Pape: 5:35

Just look at the Olympics. I know the Olympics just happened as I recorded this, not sure. When you're listening to the episode. You look at the Olympics, you look at female athletes and you see this wide spectrum and those athletes who have a strength or muscle kind of focus, the types of sports that require being fitter from the body composition perspective. What do you see? You see strong, healthy, sometimes bigger, but not bigger in a negative way athletes. They're powerful and capable, right. I mean. I think it's beautiful, it's sexy, it's all those things. If we're going to go there, right, and that's just a combination of they built muscle and they lost fat. And we're talking about athletes and let's be honest, if you're listening to this, most of you are probably not going to get to that elite athlete status. Potentially, some of you might be, but even if you're just general population wanting to get a better physique, you don't have to worry about it. So there's another twist on this right and I've even used this terminology before.

Philip Pape: 6:32

You might've heard that lifting then it makes you physically smaller because muscles get tighter right, muscles denser than fat, so it actually is going to make you smaller. That's kind of a misunderstanding and a misinterpretation of how the whole thing works. You know, muscles are obviously muscles themselves aren't changing. They're not getting tighter. You're actually building more muscle and so your cross-sectional area of your muscles become bigger because you have this dense tissue and you have more of it right, and they get more defined as they grow and then you lose fat and so you are going to probably have your shirt size go up, right, and they get more defined as they grow and then you lose fat and so you are going to probably have your shirt size go up right, your arm size go up, but your waist comes down. So, like, the proportions change a bit, but in a good way. Like, muscular arms are beautiful arms, like men and women. If you look at them, it's usually not a problem, even when women have muscly arms. And, yes, muscle takes up less space than fat for the same weight. So as you build muscle and lose fat, you might find that your weight on the scale doesn't change much if you're doing a body recomp and kind of staying the same weight, but your body composition improves dramatically and so your shape is changing and you are going to probably need clothes, not because you're getting huge or bulky, but because your shape is changing in all the right ways. You might need pants that allow for a bigger booty, for example right or shoulders or arms, but like in a good way, not because you're bulky, because you're actually filling them out and you're not just like skinny fat.

Philip Pape: 8:02

I hope none of this is triggering for any of you, because I am talking a lot about physical appearance here, but that is where the question comes from, doesn't it? Let's address another concern the fear of eating too much when trying to build muscle. So that's part of the bulking fear of like actually getting fat. Okay, and it is true again that to build muscle you need to eat enough to support that growth. You can generally build muscle either in a surplus or sometimes at maintenance. If you're a newer lifter, right, it's very rare that you're going to build much muscle in a deficit, although it can happen, but it's just going to be slower and that's not really the priority. When you're in a deficit, it's more to lose fat.

Philip Pape: 8:41

Now, when you are at maintenance or even in a slight surplus, it doesn't mean you're going to automatically gain a certain amount of fat, but you probably, the bigger that surplus is, are going to gain some of that as fat. When you do it correctly, when you do it precisely, a slight calorie surplus. So for numbers sake, I would say gaining around 0.2% to 0.3% of your body weight a week. And again, if you want to be conservative and be on the lower end, that's fine. 0.2% of your body weight a week, it's not that much. If you do the math right. It's at most a couple pounds a month for, like, an average size female.

Philip Pape: 9:18

That, combined with training properly right Progressive overload, progressing over time in the gym, going to the gym three or four days a week that is going to lead to plenty of lean muscle gain with minimal fat accumulation. And by minimal I mean maybe a third to a half of that is fat. And you're like, oh so if I gain 10 pounds, up to five of that is fat. I don't think that's the way you should reframe it. I think you should frame it as so if I gain 10 pounds, a full five of that is muscle. Holy crap, that's five pounds of muscle that I never had. And then I can easily drop whatever fat I gained in a cut, you know, in a fat loss phase. Wow, five pounds of muscle is massive when most women are walking around losing muscle year after year at the age of 30, eventually leading to sarcopenia and also osteopenia, weakness, frailty and ultimately death, and I hate to paint a negative picture. We all die someday, of course, but the chances are much higher when you don't have the muscle. So that's the health argument for muscle.

Philip Pape: 10:18

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits and Weights. I started Wits and Weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s, 40s and beyond who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they lived. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential, whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created Wits and Weights Physique University, a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized, done-for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. I can't wait to Now.

Philip Pape: 11:30

For those of you in peri or postmenopause, you might have heard warnings about limiting calories in a deficit or a severe deficit causing something called REDS relative energy deficiency in sport. In fact, steph Godreau, when she was on the podcast, we talked quite a bit about that I may have talked with I'm not sure I talked with anyone else around about it, but it's a valid concern, for sure it exists. But for most of you listening, you're not going to be in that level of a calorie deficit and doing it for so long like an elite athlete or bodybuilder to have to worry about that right. If, of course, you're crash dieting and if you're dieting for a long, long time and you're doing it super aggressively, which is not the way we do it here, yes, you are at risk for that right and amenorrhea and all those things.

Philip Pape: 12:33

But for most of you it doesn't mean you can't be in a calorie deficit, right? The key is doing it at the proper rate of loss, a moderate deficit, with the proper nutrient timing for you, right, the proper meal timing for you. Or you're not doing all this crazy fasting, cutting carbs just to cut carbs, like all that stuff. Just have a balanced diet, go at a moderate rate of loss that's not so fast that you lose muscle or lose too much energy, that lets you get in the gym and you're not trying to hit a number on the scale. You're not trying to hit a target. You're trying to do something sustainable that slowly releases fat and helps you do it successfully, which most people can't do. Most people aren't doing that right.

Philip Pape: 13:07

So short, controlled periods of a calorie deficit interspersed with maintenance phases, right. Or, even better yet, some building phases, can help you lose fat while preserving muscle, preserving hormonal health, and you won't be anywhere near that REDS, that low energy availability state. So if you hear all these fitfluencers and 22-year-old nutrition coaches saying like you need to eat more to lose weight, need to fix your metabolism, you're probably just under eating. I mean, there's a tiny bit of truth to the under eating part in some cases, but it's not magic, it's just a function of calories. That's all it is. We just need to identify okay, how much are you under eating? By what's your current maintenance? Do we need to be in maintenance for a while and clean things up and do things right and then get back into a deficit? It's those kinds of things. Let's be reasonable, let's not be a fear monger about this.

Philip Pape: 13:58

Okay, so I've talked about quite a few things related to physique with energy, to deficits, to health. I want to talk about another health aspect here, related to cardio. Valerie's email mentioned cardio and I was like, hmm, should I do another topic, a separate topic about this, but I think I want to cover this all in one kind of spot. For women Again, you're worried about getting bulky, which means you're probably in many cases over-correcting by trying to stay thin and lean quote unquote, I have quotes up here by doing lots of cardio, by doing Pilates, by doing forms of movement you think are associated with lean muscles in some way, and it's a total myth. It really is. The only way you're going to get that lean toned look is to add muscle, to add muscle, and then you cut off a little bit of fat if needed. Okay.

Philip Pape: 14:51

But let's talk about cardio where it fits in here. Because, yeah, if you listen to experts, there's all sorts of recommendations. Some experts recommend the government health standards, which is something like 150 minutes of vigorous cardio per week, which honestly isn't a bad kind of average number for a lot of people to shoot for. That's two and a half hours a week and if you're lifting, say, three or four days a week for at least an hour, that two and a half hours of cardio equates to about half the time that you lift, which is the recommendation I usually get. It's not out of the ordinary, it's not super high, it's not super low, it's kind of in the ballpark.

Philip Pape: 15:34

Now, cardiovascular exercise in general is important, okay, but it doesn't have to be separate from your training, meaning like you don't have to do special medium and high intensity cardio sessions. Your strength training alone, plus walking, for many women, for many people, is plenty, is actually enough. And if you want to incorporate some medium and high intensity cardio because you enjoy it and you want that little extra calorie burn and that little bit of extra heart health to go with it, I'm all for that. In fact, I do like a little bit of concurrent training in there. Once you get past that initial phase of like, hey, I'm just learning to get my protein, I'm just learning to lift weights.

Philip Pape: 16:11

Once you get past that initial phase and things are kind of dialed in, then I would say, okay, now where do we fit in a couple sessions throughout the week, either on your off days from lifting or like many hours after your lifting sessions, and make sure that they're maybe not on leg day but they're on your upper body day, like little tweaks like that. And I did mention the cardio for lifters guide early on. Again, I actually explained those in there I explained the types of cardio, how to incorporate it with your lifting, how to balance it, and then a little trick that I like to use to get a little bit more calorie burn from your cardio. Okay, just join my email list, whitsandweightscom slash email, and send me an email that you want the cardio guide and I will send it to you. All right, but if you are like juggling a family, your work, your training, meal planning and the idea of fitting in separate hours of cardio sessions on top of strength training can seem overwhelming, if not impossible. Right, and this is where the efficiency comes in. I'm all for efficiency here. You can incorporate some conditioning into your strength training.

Philip Pape: 17:16

So, women, ladies, if you do like those bootcamp classes, if you like the Pilates, if you like you know spin, whatever, I'm not against having, like supersets, a little bit of circuit training work, a little bit of just kind of what you would see in CrossFit, like box jumps or stuff like that kind of thrown in, but they're second priority to the lifting or they're incorporated as part of the lifting. So, for example, you might do, you know, your normal heavy squats, then you might do some leg presses, but then you're going to go ahead and do some calf raises and leg curls and you're going to superset them, and because you're supersetting them and taking very little rest, your heart rate's going up right into zone two, maybe zone three. Right there you're spending a good minutes 10 minutes in a medium, if not high intensity cardio state while lifting weights. Boom, you just got two for one. You can get plenty of cardiovascular benefits just from lifting weights, without having to double your gym time or do things that you don't enjoy doing. Okay, so the goal here isn't to do everything at maximum intensity all the time. Right, we've talked about 80-20 in the past. Go look up my episode called the Pareto Principle is in the title where you just have to do enough to get the minimum effective dose, and then that is the maximum use of your time, where you can make progress without burning out, and then you can decide if you want to do more than that. Can make progress without burning out, and then you can decide if you want to do more than that. And this might mean this probably does mean focusing primarily on strength training, because now you know you're not going to get bulky, but that is the way to get the lean you know bigger in a good way, lean and sexy physique. That you're going for Strategic cardio compliments right. Doesn't compete with your lifting, and that's the approach I would take when it comes to cardio. You don't have to be doing a bunch of treadmill work, a bunch of stair climbing work, right. Just walk, lift and then incorporate cardio where it makes sense and make sure you enjoy it.

Philip Pape: 19:16

I think there's one more thing that I kind of forgot to mention earlier about the calorie deficit for fat loss, because I was thinking of cardio and how many of you use cardio to try to increase your calories and help with fat loss, and that is not what cardio is for. Cardio is for heart health, and that's pretty much it. It burns a little bit more calories, but you don't want to overdo it, and so when we moderate the cardio and we focus on lifting and then use diet as the dial right, periodizing your diet, having proper fat loss phases, cycling your calories as needed, this can allow you to get the result efficiently in a fairly short period of time. So let's say, 10 pounds over 12 or 16 weeks, and then you get back to maintenance for a while and then you build a bunch of muscle and then you do another fat loss phase. I've talked about this in the past with my stair-step fat loss approach. Approaches like that that I do with clients all the time.

Philip Pape: 20:13

Right, we roll up the sleeves and we say what's the most creative way to structure your diet? Your lifting, your cardio, so it's fun, so it's sustainable, so you can go out and have fun on the weekends and you don't really feel like you're dieting like you used to. And then what do you get for it? You get a physique that you you know, your dream physique, your ideal physique that you're going for here Not bulky, not bulky, but lean, toned, sexy. All of those things let's talk about.

Philip Pape: 20:39

This is the last thing I'm going to talk about here, a concept that gets overlooked in all of this the very act of building muscle can make fat loss easier. It makes fat loss easier in the long run. Muscle tissue is the most metabolically active tissue. That means it burns more calories at rest than fat does. Fat does have some burning, but not nearly as much as muscle, and so by focusing on building muscle through heavy lifting, you are upgrading your body's engine, your metabolic engine. You're making it more efficient to burning calories. And here's the thing that people miss. You can carry more scale weight so you can be bigger but leaner. And because you're bigger, you're burning even more calories and you get to eat more food. Who doesn't want that? So this is why focusing on strength training rather than cutting calories endless cardio, high rep, high cardio type workouts can often be the game changer for women looking to transform their bodies, and why you should not be afraid one iota about lifting weights One iota. You are improving everything about your life, your health, your function, your capability, your metabolism. There is zero, absolutely zero downside to building muscle, one of the most powerful things you can do for your body.

Philip Pape: 21:59

So, as we wrap up, I want to recap some key points here. Number one lifting weights will not make women bulky. It will not make you bulky, that's it. It'll make you leaner, stronger and, yes, sexier. Maybe that last one's a subjective thing, but I'm a guy, so I can say that. Number two muscle growth and fat loss work together to create the toned look. You've got to spend some time building muscle, but then occasionally you focus on fat loss. Number three balancing that nutrition with your training is key here. Right, but it doesn't have to be complicated. In fact, it should work with you and your lifestyle preferences. Number four cardio is important, but it can be efficiently incorporated and prioritized below your strength training. And then number five building muscle is the best thing you could do. It is a powerful strategy for long-term fat loss, for metabolic health, for everything.

Philip Pape: 22:50

So I hope the message was clear. The goal isn't to conform here to some idea of a perfect body, right, but it is to dispel the myth that women are going to get bulky and instead, when you lift weights, when you focus on muscle, you will become the strongest, healthiest version of yourself. As long as you're fueling it properly, you progress and you track the right things right. You do the right things. You do what we talk about on this podcast. You reach out for help when needed, because that's sometimes the best way to accelerate your results, and you watch as you transform and it won't take that long. But you're going to transform not only physically, but with your confidence and your capability and your ability to show up for yourself and for others. All right If you enjoyed today's episode, if you want to learn more about really everything, but specifically what I mentioned today, if you want to balance cardio and training, because that's sometimes where the big question mark is.

Philip Pape: 23:48

Don't forget to grab your free copy of my Cardio for a Lifter's Guide. Go to witsowheightscom, slash email or click the link in the show notes to join my email list. Then, when you're on there, reply and say hey, philip, I would love the Cardio for a Lifter's Guide. By the way, what else do you have? And I to send you all my free stuff? Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember your body is capable of amazing things when you give it the right muscle building stimulus. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights Podcast. Talk to you next time.

Hollywood-Level Fitness for Everyday Fat Loss with Celebrity Trainer Obi Obadike | Ep 202

Have you ever wondered how celebrities achieve jaw-dropping physical transformations for blockbuster roles? What if you could unlock their secrets and apply them to your own fitness journey? 

Imagine sculpting the body of your dreams with practical, totally doable strategies.

In today's episode, Philip (@witsandweights) chats with Obi Obadike, the powerhouse trainer behind A-listers like Steve Harvey and Morris Chestnut. He is a fitness industry icon, TV host, and best-selling author. He is one of the most influential fitness experts, and he's been featured on major talk shows like The Today Show.  

Obi shares his approach to rapid yet sustainable fat loss, emphasizing balanced nutrition and personalized training plans. He discusses the importance of health screenings, the impact of genetics, and practical methods everyday people can use to achieve their fitness goals. 

Whether you're aiming for quick, dramatic results or sustainable, long-term health, this episode is for you. 

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15-minute call.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:40 Creating training plans under tight deadlines
2:52 The trade-offs of rapid transformations
5:12 Real-life celebrity transformations
8:29 Monitoring body composition
12:01 Maintaining muscle mass during fat loss
14:38 Sustainable fat loss for everyday people
17:52 Balanced nutrition and macronutrient ratios
20:12 The perfect diet for an individual
24:02 Importance of recovery and listening to your body
31:00 The role of sleep and recovery in fitness
32:17 Lifting heavy and its impact on joints
38:23 Maintaining long-term fitness results
41:40 The impact of genetics on maintenance
45:24 How to find Obi
46:30 Outro

Episode resources:

• Obi's websites: obiobadike.com and ethicalinc.com

• Instagram: @obiobadike/

• Facebook: @obi.obadike

• Twitter: @obi_obadike

Episode summary:

Have you ever watched a blockbuster movie and wondered how actors achieve their jaw-dropping physiques in such a short amount of time? In the latest episode of our podcast, we sat down with fitness expert Obi Obedike to uncover the grueling regimens that stars like Morris Chestnut endure for their roles. But more importantly, Obi offers a balanced, sustainable approach for everyday people who want to get fit without the extremes.

Obi begins by sharing the behind-the-scenes of Hollywood transformations, emphasizing that the rapid fitness changes we see on screen are often achieved through intense, unsustainable methods. These extreme regimens involve rigorous two-a-day cardio sessions, heavy weightlifting, and severely restricted diets. While these tactics can yield impressive short-term results, they are not practical for long-term health. Obi stresses the importance of setting realistic goals and timelines to ensure sustainable success, noting that the pressure to look a certain way often leads to unhealthy practices.

One of the key takeaways from this episode is Obi’s focus on balanced macronutrient ratios. Many people fall into the trap of extreme diets, such as cutting carbs to keto levels, which can leave them feeling drained and defeated. Obi explains that a well-rounded diet, rich in proteins, complex carbs, and healthy fats, is essential for maintaining energy levels and overall well-being. He debunks the myth that specific macronutrient manipulation is the key to weight loss, highlighting that a caloric deficit is what truly matters. This balanced approach not only helps in losing body fat but also ensures that individuals can sustain their diet in the long run.

Obi also delves into the importance of tailored advice for different age groups. As we age, our bodies require different nutritional and exercise needs. He emphasizes that maintaining lean muscle mass becomes crucial, which can be achieved through adequate protein intake and resistance training. The discussion extends to the significance of rest and recovery, particularly for older individuals. Overtraining can lead to injuries and hinder progress, making it vital to listen to one’s body and allow ample recovery time.

Another critical aspect covered in this episode is the psychological and physical benefits of taking breaks from intense workouts. Obi advocates for at least two rest days per week to enhance both mental and physical well-being. He points out that recovery is as important as the workouts themselves, as it allows the muscles to rebuild and strengthen. This holistic approach to fitness underscores the necessity of balancing workout intensity with adequate rest to prevent overtraining and ensure long-term health.

The episode also touches on the challenges of maintaining fitness gains in the long run. Obi reveals that understanding your body’s set point and regularly monitoring body composition are crucial for sustaining your desired physique. He discusses the role of genetics in determining body composition, noting that individual predispositions can make maintaining lower body fat percentages easier for some and more challenging for others. Having realistic expectations based on your genetic makeup is key to long-term success.

Overall, this episode with Obi Obedike is a treasure trove of practical knowledge and motivational insights. Whether you are aiming for rapid but controlled results or seeking sustainable long-term health, Obi’s expert advice can transform your approach to fitness and wellness. Tune in to learn how to achieve balanced health without the extremes and create a fitness plan that is both effective and maintainable. Don’t miss out on this invaluable episode that could change the way you view your fitness journey.

📲 Send me a text message!

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

If you're like most of us, you've probably wondered how celebrities achieve those incredible physical transformations for a movie or TV show. You see them looking fit or sometimes totally ripped, like Chris Hemsworth prepping his Thor for the next Marvel movie, and think, what is their secret? But it's not just for the stars. In today's episode, we are chatting with one of the fittest people on the planet and the trainer behind the scenes to big celebrities like Steve Harvey and Morris Chestnut, you are going to learn practical, totally doable strategies that can help anyone celebrity or not achieve the body of their dreams, whether you're aiming for quick but controlled results or sustainable long term health, this episode will tell you exactly what it takes to get there. Welcome to wits and weights, the show that helps you engineer your best physique for maximum results with minimum wasted effort. I'm your host, Philip, and today I invited on Obi obedike, a fitness industry icon, a telly award winning TV host and a best selling author. He's written over 100 articles for top fitness magazines and websites, and his book, The cut, co authored with actor Morris Chestnut, has helped countless people transform their bodies and their lives. Obi has been featured on major national talk shows like The Today Show, and his expertise has earned him recognition as one of the most influential fitness experts today, you'll learn about OBS approach to achieving rapid and sustainable fat loss, the strategies he uses with both celebrities and everyday clients, and how you can apply these methods to your own fitness journey, plus stick around to find out, is there a perfect diet for you? Obi, welcome to the show, my man. Hey, Philip,

Obi Obadike  01:38

thank you so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate it.

Philip Pape  01:41

So, man, I just want to jump right in and have you imagine that moment when a celebrity client, right, who's desperate to make a change, and they have this very tight deadline before a major film or TV shoot, they walk into your gym and they look in the eye and they say, this role could change my life, but I'm nowhere ready for it, right? How do you create a training and nutrition plan under such pressure and know without a doubt that it will succeed?

Obi Obadike  02:05

Yeah, you know, that's a good question. You know, I think with unfortunately, you know, sometimes when you have to get somebody, a celebrity, ready for a big project, most of the time, they never really give you enough time. And now and you feel the extra stress and anxiety, especially if they say, Hey, we need to look like this and like, you know, eight weeks or nine weeks, you're like, that's not enough time, you know? So I've never, ever felt that I've been given enough time to help somebody get ready for a big project. And so what happens is that you feel the extra stress, you feel the extra anxiety, and they always end up having to over train, you know, over training the client, because you're, you know, doing so much, you know, yeah,

Philip Pape  02:52

that's a good point, right? Because if you have a deadline, we always talk about when you're setting up your fat loss phase, for example, you know, don't necessarily have a date in mind, and try to go aggressively toward a date, come up with a reasonable approach that'll get you there, and then get the results that come but some people have a wedding, they have a photo shoot, your clients have a date that they're going after. And it sounds like it leads to some level of trade off or extreme that maybe is not, quote, unquote healthy in the short term, but it gets you to the result. I mean, would you agree with that? And if so, you know, the everyday person listening, we're going to get into like, the pros and cons of that. But what are your thoughts on that approach for the everyday person?

Obi Obadike  03:27

Yeah, you know, for the everyday person, I'm not an advocate of doing anything extreme, so it's really contradictory to my beliefs. When I'm trying to transform someone, when I have an everyday, average person that wants to get in shape, wants to lose weight. It's very important for me to get as much information from them as possible. I call it a health Screening Questionnaire. Get their height, their weight, their fitness goals, their dietary preferences, foods they like to eat, foods they don't like to eat, past or present, injuries, medical concerns I need to be aware of. So I want to get all of that detailed information from them, which allows me to create a tailored program for them, and then I really try to give it an honest time frame on how long it would take for them to lose the weight. Because a lot of times when you have to help someone get in shape within a shorter amount of time, the program is extreme, particularly if the time frame is limited. And so when you have an extreme program, exercise or diet. Typically, people can't maintain that, because the extremity is just too much, particularly when you're having someone work twice a day, or somebody that has to is on some, you know, extremely low caloric diet. So those type of training and diet program is too much. So again, I'm not an advocate of that, and the everyday, average person is really what to be honest with you, I enjoy training working with because I don't feel the stress and anxiety to have to get someone to look a certain way within such an extreme short amount of time. Yeah.

Philip Pape  05:00

Yeah, I feel you on that. And love the fact that you gather all that information, right? Because me, I get questions all the time, What is your answer for x? And it's like, it depends answer my questions first, because I need to understand you as an individual, and I want the listener to understand that, you know, when you see somebody up on a screen or whatever, it's like a bodybuilding competition. You know, there's a above and beyond. It's almost like a performance related goal that at all costs in some cases, right? So you mentioned, you know, two a days and very low calories and things like that. So maybe tell us about a specific like transformation you went through with a celebrity, so we can understand what some of those trade offs are, and then we can kind of pivot into Sure, the everyday client. Yeah. Well, when I,

Obi Obadike  05:41

when I got Morris Chestnut in shape for the best man holiday, this might have been about 11 years ago. I was given a time frame of, like, literally, like, I think, like 1011, weeks, if I'm not mistaken, and people don't believe this, but he came to me overweight, so he had to really drop about 30 to 33 pounds to get in shape for the movie. So, because we were so limited in time frame, I had to do two a day workouts with him. Where we were, you know, he was doing two a day cardio days, and then he was obviously lifting weights in the morning time. And then I probably had him starting off at his daily calories was probably I had he was 220 I got him down to 187 and I think the daily calories that I had him at the start was maybe about 1900 and then every couple of weeks we would drop it down to 100 and I think he probably at the lowest might have been at 1600 calories, because I was really trying to strip all that body fat from his body, and I wanted to make sure he was in an extreme deficit. And so that is not how I would never have anyone do two a day workouts, you know, that's like, like, if you're training for the Olympics or something, you know, but when you're limited in the amount of the limited time frame, that's, unfortunately, you have to do that. So he was on a low caloric diet, and then he was over training, you know, he was burning a lot of calories daily. I think we might have been doing this about like, five days a week. So they had given me, like, you know, four months or five months. Then the program might have been like, you know, maybe four days a week. And then would be, you know, four days a week of weights and four days a week of cardio. And maybe the daily calories would have been slightly higher, and it wouldn't be so low. Whereas, if someone where I've had other clients, where maybe some guy came to me and he weighed 240 pounds, and he wanted to lose 30 or 40 pounds out on average, start them off at maybe 20, 102,000 calories, maybe drop them down to 18, 1700 have him working out four to five days a week. Probably cardi wouldn't be more than maybe 3040, minutes at a time. So it'd really be a slow, incremental process, the whole one to two pounds per week, you know, Healthy Weight Loss type of thing, as opposed to someone that has to get in shape for a big movie. And he's got a limited amount of time frame, and he's dropping like, you know, four pounds or five pounds a week, which is not really healthy. It's doubled what is suggested by the CDC and what is really suggested by a lot of health and wellness professionals, which is that one to two pounds per week, yeah,

Philip Pape  08:16

for sure. You know, sometimes we talk in percentages to, like, 1% a week, above which you might lose muscle mass. And we're hearing a lot of, you know, the rapid muscle loss with like the ozempic and those kinds of drugs and everything as well, because of the rapid weight loss. So what you're saying is, you know, if you got 10 weeks, three or four or five pounds a week, you're talking 1500 2000 calorie deficit, ish, something like that, which you're kind of making the calories not drop as low as they could drop by adding some cardio and movement on top of that. How do you monitor in that situation the body composition to get where you want? Because I imagine, for someone going into a role like that, it could literally just be get as shredded as possible, regardless of muscle loss, and that's the trade off. Or it could be, no we need to maintain some of that because of their starting composition. Yeah,

Obi Obadike  09:02

I'd had Morris weigh himself every week when I was working with him, and then I would have him we would do like body fat composition test, maybe once every three weeks, once every month, you know. And the weight loss, obviously, as we as we know, first two weeks of any weight loss program, more than half of it is always going to be water loss anyway, not body fat loss and body fat. I always, I'm not really an advocate of checking body fat every week. It takes a while to really see the incremental drop. So I always like to do, if I'm going to do a body composition test, a body fat test, and check the body fat. I think once a month is enough time to see the incremental drop. So that's kind of what we were doing. And so what was fascinating, and then I also actually had him lift heavy weights because he was and that I increased his protein because he was in an extreme deficit. Wasn't getting as many calories. What was going to help with, with trying to minimize the muscle loss, was the increase in his protein intake and then lifting heavier, because we don't want him looking stringy. You know what I mean? We don't want to want him looking flat. He's supposed to be a professional football player in the movie, and he had the reason why it was so important to get him to single digit body fat was that so funny. He's got all these he's got a huge female following, you know, that wants to see that, that shirtless scene, that little V around the you know, that was the money shot. You know what? I mean, it's so funny. You train your butt off intensely for eight, 910, 1112, weeks for one shirtless scene, you know, in a movie which is so funny, you know, but that was it. So what was really cool about it was that, at the time, think he was like 43 or 44 at the time, so that was the best shape he'd ever been in his entire life. And so because at, you know, before social media exploded, it was all about fitness magazines. You know, if you were a fitness professional and you weren't in a magazine, before social media exploded, you didn't exist. So at that time, magazines were still relevant. And so I had those relationships with all the fitness magazines. So I was able to get him on a fitness magazine cover at the time that the movie came out, to capture this new, transformed physique. So that was really, really cool that I was able to use my relationships. And surprisingly, even though he's been on magazine covers, he had never really been on a fitness magazine cover, believe it or not. So that was kind of really cool to be able to capture this, you know, transform physique. And so when he was promoting the movie, they were showing that magazine cover, you know, it was really, really cool. So, yeah,

Philip Pape  11:49

yeah, no. I mean, you make some good points there, right? Like, some of this is a snapshot in time, right? When people are scrolling through Instagram and seeing all these great looking physiques, it's like, that's a snapshot, right? That's the that's probably at their best, at their leanest. I've heard you mention, you know, even just to have six pack revealed, you've got to be sub, like 14% body fat, or in that range,

Obi Obadike  12:08

if you're a guy, yeah, he was probably at the time, you know, just going off of my head. Don't quote me on it, but he was 220 he might have been probably in the, you know, body fat was probably in the 20s, you know, maybe 23 24% there. You know, he wasn't, he gets it. He was in the, definitely in the worst shape. So we took him down from that 20s, down to probably about, maybe it was probably at 8% seven to 8% something around there was,

Philip Pape  12:38

he already a lifter before then, like he had, he already built some muscle. Yeah,

Obi Obadike  12:41

he he was a fitness guy. He definitely wasn't like someone that was like, he definitely worked out. How do I put this? I wouldn't say like super, super fitness guy, but definitely was fitness minded, you know, more like, he liked doing athletic things, playing basketball, you know, as opposed to someone who was in the gym lifting weights every day. So he was definitely a physically active person. And for the most part, most movies that he'd ever been in where he did take his shirt off, it was never a problem. But I think at this time, you know, he's in his 40s at the time, and he was in New York, where it was really, really cold prior to the him the movie getting green lit, and he kind of was just staying in his apartment. Wasn't working out for months, and, you know, had no desire and motivation. And then all of a sudden he gets a call that this movie's got green lit. And the director's like, hey, we need you to look like this. And he's like, Oh snap, okay, I'm nowhere near that right now. How much time we got, you know? And so that's when he contacted me, and that started the working relationship and friendship as well. Too.

Philip Pape  13:44

Cool, man. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, a lot of people can relate to just that time in their life. They're kind of letting things go for whatever reason, and now they need the kick in the butt to get back to it. What better way than a big role?

Obi Obadike  13:55

Yeah, it happens with everyone. Happens with everyone. You know. We're all human beings, you know, and sometimes, whether it's stress, whether it's grief, whether it's depression, you know, so many different variables that can affect your motivation to want to exercise or do anything. You know, we all go through that, but some people are able to really always use exercise as a form of as an outlet, you know, as therapeutic. So, yeah,

Philip Pape  14:26

yeah. All right, now, so talking about the everyday person, I do want to quickly segue to, like, your rapid fat loss or rapid weight loss for that population where it's sustainable and safe, and that's I kind of want the listener to understand that, because, yes, there's the reasonable, longer term approach that we probably should be taking, but then there's okay. Maybe I have been lifting. Maybe my nutrition is dialed in. I know how to hit the protein that OB is asking me to hit. Is there, you know, is there some sort of protocol or approach that you would take with a client like, Sure, well, I

Obi Obadike  14:57

really believe in balance. I'm really. Of an imbalance. So I'm not a believer in extreme macronutrients, where your carbs are extremely low. Or I really believe a great starting template, macronutrient ratio wise is 4040, 20, which is 40% protein, 40% carbs, 20% fats. And then start to make your maneuvers from that starting point. So I feel like if you eat in a balanced way, I feel like you're gonna optimize your energy levels when you're trying to drop body fat and trying to drop weight, I feel like I don't feel like the processes should be where you're lowering your macro nutrient ratio because you believe you're going to drop more body fat, like, let's just say, for example, you're dropping your carbs down to 5% carbs. You know, maybe a Keto aspect. Not everyone can do that. You know, now your energy levels are so low and the process is very difficult for you, because you're probably enough affecting your mental ability to stay alert, you don't have the energy levels to be able to function, especially if you work a job that requires you to work long hours and stuff like that. So, you know, all the research shows that, yes, if you're on a low carb diet, will you drop body fat? Will you drop weight? Yeah, you drop weight the first you know week or two weeks, but it's water because of the glycogen once you drop your carbohydrate levels and stuff like that. But all the research has shown that you're not going to drop any more body fat if you're at carbs. Are five to 10% of your diets coming from carbs, as opposed to your carbs being higher. You drop body fat because you're in a deficit. Okay, you know. So when you know, I always say that when you the whole 30 diet, the keto diet, the Mediterranean diet, all of these different diets, why are people losing weight? What's so unique? What's so different, if they're losing weight because they're in a deficit, full stop, that's it. So once you understand how it works, then you're like, Okay, well, then I don't need to go that razor low on my carbs or my fats, or I could still have it where I'm getting enough, where I feel like my energy levels are optimal, and I can still work out with high energy. I could still play with my kids, be with my spouse. I could still work long hours, and my energy levels are going to be optimal because my macronutrients are balanced. So that's my approach in being able to get the optimal result. I don't believe that we have to go really razor on the macro nuture ratios and deplete you to get you to the goal. And you're absolutely miserable every week. I don't think it should be an unpleasant experience, you know. And then also, you have to also look at it from a long term perspective, you know, like, Okay, you're getting the person to that final goal, right, and, you know, but you're trying to create a program that they can continue after they stop working with you. So, okay, I got you to the goal in a miserable way, in a way that every week you have no energy whatsoever. And now this person wants to maintain this body, he's like, Oh, my God, I have to stay at this level. I have to stay at this, you know, 30 grams of carbs per day. I don't know if I could do that. I got there. Love my body, but that was tough. That was miserable. You see what I'm saying?

Philip Pape  18:30

Oh, I see what you're saying. Man, we are 100% aligned. I'm glad you're on the show telling people carbs are important and balance is important, because you're totally right. Man, the most hate I got on a podcast episode was called, more carbs, more muscle. And it's like the Keto and the low carb zealots come out like, you know, again, we talked before we even started recording, like people eat cherry picking science or trying to, you know, the thing that they're trying to sell saying that this is optimal, just because they're trying to make money off of it. And, like you said, recovery, energy, balance, sustainability, all of the boxes are checked when you're just in a reasonably balanced diet, most people the protein's too low or the carbs are too low. And this

Obi Obadike  19:05

is my thing. As long as you understand what you're doing if you're on a keto diet and it's helping you lose body fat and weight, God bless you. And if you're okay with that, that's cool. But what I'm trying to say, and what you're trying to say, is that, hey, this is what you're not losing body fat because you're on a Keto you're losing it because you're in a deficit. The science and the data shows that your macronutrient when someone is dropping body fat, it's not because of the Mac the the macronutrient ratio being dropped, or it has everything to do with your macronutrient ratio. It's because you're in a deficit. It has nothing to do with, you know, dropping your a certain nutrient level down to a minimal level, and that's why you're dropping body fat, and that's the science says that. So I think it's just understanding what you're doing, and then you could make the decision on which path works for you. And that's. What I believe in is just providing the information and, you know, pick a program what works for you. But I'm going to be honest and say, Hey, this may not be sustainable for you, you know, and then you have to make that decision, what you want to do.

Philip Pape  20:12

Yes, that's a good segue into the question like, What is the perfect diet? Because you've already alluded to the fact that these named diets are not necessarily the way to go, that it's got to work for you. It's got to be customized. You know, what are those big factors besides macro balance, which is super important, and it can shift right? It can shift somebody might do better on higher protein or lower carbs or whatever. What are kind of the boxes you would check for the perfect diet for an individual?

Obi Obadike  20:36

Well, I think the perfect diet is, as I was saying, it's the perfect diet is a diet that's balanced, that you're getting your proteins, your carbs, your healthy fats, complex carbs, your fruits and vegetables with every meal, your protein with every meal. You know your complex carbs with every meal. So I believe in the whole fruit rainbow effect, where you make sure you have your greens and your fruits and your vegetables with every single meal. You have your protein with each meal, especially if you're an advocate of wanting to maintain your lean muscle mass as you as you know, as you get older, every decade after the age of 30, you can drop anywhere from two to 4% of lean muscle mass. The only way to combat that, that muscle mass decline is lifestyle change. So protein, as you know, and resistance training, they work hand in hand, so making sure your protein is you're consuming that with every meal. I do believe in at least a gram of protein per pound, having your complex carbs and your breakfast, you know, lunch and your dinner, having your fruits and vegetables with each meal. So I just really believe in the balance approach. Obviously, if you're an athlete, and your activity level requires an extreme amount of physical activity level, and your carbohydrate intake is going to be probably double or triple the average person, because you're feeding off of that fuel to be able to sustain the activity level. So a lot of times your you know, your macro neutral ratio is really depending, is physical activity dependent. So this is not when I'm saying balanced in your ratio. I'm talking about the everyday, average person walking on the street. I'm not talking about a professional athlete. That's a completely different ball game, you know, in terms of what your ratio is, because if you're talking about an athlete, that carbohydrates gonna go really, really, really high, you know,

Philip Pape  22:26

yeah, man, it's funny. I had a guy in the show. You'd love him. His name is Ben Lewis. Went through a massive transformation, you know, 280 he, like, lost 100 pounds. He got 60 miles a week of running. He qualified for the Boston Marathon. But he also lifts three days a week and has retained his muscle. It's amazing, but like, 4700 calories, you know what I mean. So a lot of that is going to be carbs. Wow.

Obi Obadike  22:48

Exactly. How many miles a week does he run? 6060, miles? Oh, my God, jeez, I wonder. How old is he? He's 55 I'd love to know how his joints are, man, how his knees in his hips? No, that's

Philip Pape  23:02

what I'm saying. I think you'd love him. We can touch base later. I'll because his episode is out before this one. Yeah, okay, so I mean, everything you're saying is, I'm sure the listener is like, okay, cool. I got it like the gram per pound of protein and having balance and having fiber and complex carbs and all that. What about the 8020 approach? A lot of us talk about, where, from a sustainability perspective, you got to have some indulgences in there? Yeah, sure. I'm

Obi Obadike  23:24

a big advocate of that. For sure, 8020 and sometimes, some people need to 7030 like me sometimes. So I feel like, if you can, we all need it from a psychological perspective as well too, to ask someone to eat a certain way so strict seven days a week, I just don't think that's realistic. So you can still accomplish your goals with the 8020 rule, 9010 rule, and even push it to 7030 if you're exercising enough physical activity level that would give you that extra buffer to bring you from 8020 to 7030 so I am a huge advocate of that. I think that, as they say, indulging within moderation. And there's a word that people don't use in fitness called extreme moderation. And so moderation in how you eat and how you exercise, a lot of people don't understand when you exercise. There's a two it's a two prong effect. The first prong is you're working out and you're tearing down your muscle, so that's important, right? And then you're resting and recovering. And while you're recovering, it's rebuilding, so the rest is just as important as you're tearing it down. And people don't understand anything. It's tear, tear, tear. When is it recovering? When is it rebuilding after you've torn it down. It's a two step process. You know, I know people that have over trained, over train, over train, over train, like I'm always sore, I'm always sore, and I'm not improving my strengths. And they take a couple weeks off from the gym, and all of a sudden their strength levels jumped up. You know what I mean? Their lips are up well over training. Body, as in, you're not giving your body enough time to recover. Took me years to figure that out. When you're young, you think you can you're supposed to live in the gym seven days a week. And you get older, you realize, man, no, the rest is just as important as is working out.

Philip Pape  25:16

Yeah, I'm with you. Man, that like stimulus to fatigue and that fatigue builds up, and the older we are. I hear you. I didn't really get into this properly until my late 30s, so it started to affect me, you know, not being as young of a guy anymore, and most of the people we talked to on the show in their 40s and 50s. So that's actually a good transition to you know, how important is that recovery and how much more important does it get as we age? You mentioned joints, right with the runner I was talking about joint health, connective tissue, all that like, what are the specific challenges individuals in that age group should really be thinking about, how do they recover and prioritize that?

Obi Obadike  25:50

Sure. Well, I think that when you're talking about someone in their, you know, 40s, and they're in their 50s and stuff like that, I feel like the older you get, the more your rest and recovery is important your body. The thing when you get older is that the difference between someone who's in their 40s or their 50s or older than that, between someone who's younger is the recovery aspect, where you don't recover as fast. That's the problem when you get older. It's not the fact that you can't lift as heavy as you did when you were younger, but the recovery aspect is the issue when you get older. That's why, when you see an older athlete, the reason why they may not have the best performance is back to back performance, and they have back to back games the recovery. They don't recover as fast as someone who's younger. So you have to understand, as the older you get, you have to give yourself maybe even more recovery time. You know the idea of you working out seven days a week, or was, I've never been an advocate of that, but six days a week, you know, you'll probably find out you'll be able to have better performances in the gym, or even better body composition maintenance if you're training less, as opposed to more, particularly if your whole if your objective is Just to maintain your shape. You don't have any like you're not a marathon runner, or you're not competing in something or whatever. Maybe you just want to just stay in shape for your age, you know, and maintain your muscle mass. You don't have to be in there six days a week.

27:15

Hi, my name is Alan, and I just want to give a shout out to Philippa of wits and weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research, and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, Philip papers the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition, and it continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Phillip,

Philip Pape  28:07

so what are your thoughts then on, because you mentioned the frequency, and I have a lot of discussions with this, about this, with trainers and lifters. What if a three day a week program that has a certain amount of volume got split into six days, the same amount of total volume. In other words, you're spreading out the fatigue. Can that? Have you seen that actually be a beneficial input, you know, change for recovery, you know, I'm saying so this is more days, but the same amount of volume just spread over six days instead of three. Okay,

Obi Obadike  28:35

yeah, no. I mean, I don't have an issue with that whatsoever, you know, because if you're spreading it out over six days, right? But the every day is probably a lower workout output. It's really not, maybe it's 30 minutes a day or whatever. It's not that much, you know. So you're not, you're not taxing the body at the highest level every day. So your body is given enough time to recover, because you're not taxing it to the point where you might need a day or two days to recover. So I don't have an issue with that whatsoever. I feel like when everybody's different, I feel like the mental, psychological approach of like just being able to have a couple of days from going to the gym and exercise. Sometimes it's really good just to have that psychological break, as opposed to, you know, I know people that just love the gym and they can't stay away from it, but sometimes just having that mental, psychological break from being in the gym, you know, at least two days, or, you know, at least two days. I think can actually help you. I know, for me personally, I used to train like this back in the day, six days a week, and you know, but I feel like me. Personally, I feel like I enjoy it more when I'm away from the gym at least a couple days a week, and then when I go back in there, I enjoy it even more. Uh, you know, as opposed to being in there six days a week, there's not only the physical approach to the physical recovery aspect, there's also also the psychological aspect as well too. I think at times, yeah,

Philip Pape  30:14

I asked because, I mean, personally, I've experimented with both, and we talk about it on the show too. Because, like you said, the archetype of the person who always has to go to the gym every day. Do we scratch that itch by going to the gym every day? Or do we actually assess that maybe we're doing too much by going to the gym every day and using those off days? And also, I found one benefit of it is I'm a morning gym goer. Those extra recovery days just means I can get that extra hour of sleep. I mean, that can be huge, you know, for people just to sleep, you know? Yeah. And

Obi Obadike  30:40

the thing about it is just, the most important thing is just to listen to your body. You know, because the human body is amazing, it'll tell you when you've done too much. It'll tell you when you need a break, if you're so sore. And I think it's so important to listen to it, and a lot of people don't, you know, so when you're able to listen to your body, it'll tell you, yeah, I probably made me to take a day off today. You know, I'm tired.

Philip Pape  31:00

I know, man, yeah, recovering sleep are not sexy topics. You know, as much as we hammer home how important they are, you know what? I mean, people always want to talk about the on switch rather than the off switch. Yeah,

Obi Obadike  31:11

I personally think if people can incorporate recovery and sleep and really incorporate that as part of fitness, okay, it's like, okay, exercise is part of fitness, but no one ever really talks about sleep and recovery is part of fitness. It is. It's really connected. If you truly want to optimize your goals, optimize your gains, it is part of that. And please stop watching some of these. You know, juiced uprooted bodybuilders tell you, you got to be in there seven days a week, you know, three hours a day. Well, they're taking drugs, man, you know, yeah, of course. You know, if I'm taking all that stuff, I probably could work out like that too.

Philip Pape  31:52

I didn't know if you were going to get into the PDS too, because I know people have questions about that, but, uh, it's funny you ask. You say that, because I know if somebody asks, Hey, I missed some reps. You know what's going on? Should I lower the weight? One of the first questions I asked is, did you get enough sleep? Like, did you get enough rest? Are you taking long enough rest period? It's like, the absence of the stuff is usually supporting the stuff, and so, right? You gotta it's part of your fitness. Yeah, it's good one. What about lifting heavy? Because you mentioned lifting heavy, and that's kind of a I use that term all the time, and people are like, What do you mean for older folks especially? I mean, I am a big advocate of lifting heavy No matter your age. I don't care if you're 90, like, I think it's great. It's great for your skeletal muscular system. But what do we mean by that? And how does that come into play with connective tissue and joints and things like that,

Obi Obadike  32:36

right? Well, I think as you all you get when you get older, I feel like, if you're lifting really heavy, I feel like, over time, it's not really good for your joints, especially when you're in your 50s. I still think you can push the muscle without going super heavy, like a power lifter. I'm not really an advocate of doing a set less than 10 reps, you know? I just don't really see the value of that, unless you're trying to be a power lifter. And the older you get, once you start lifting really heavy, you can fill in your joints. You're going to fill in your knees, you're going to fill in your elbows, you're going to fill in your hips. So I know that there's a high end of lifting heavy being strong, but you know, if your goal is to maintain muscle or even build it. Whether it's building or maintaining it, the muscle doesn't know that you're lifting 150 pounds. All it knows is the tension you've applied to it. It doesn't say, wait a minute, I'm lifting 120 pounds now. Now it's time for me to build. Now it's time for me to grow. All it knows is the tension. So when you understand how the muscle adapts to the stress that you put on it, then you realize you don't have to lift heavy to maintain the muscle or even build it, because most of it is really associated with the calories that you're in taking. But then the stress you put to the muscle, you can still stress the muscle without going heavy and go higher, repetitions go slower. So once you understand that, then I think it makes sense, okay, what's the better approach to longevity? You know, to protecting my joints and not having issues where I'm always in pain, my joints are always in pain, you know, because I'm lifting so heavy, we all eventually have to make those adjustments as we get older. I had to, I'm 48 I had to make those adjustments. I'm not going out there squatting four or five or whatever anymore. Back in the day, I who am I competing against? And then also, I don't want to have a knee replacement, I don't want to have joint issues and stuff like that. So I had to make those adjustments, you know. So, yeah,

Philip Pape  34:42

yeah. And my thoughts on this have been nuanced and evolving over the years as well. It's kind of still mixed, right? Because I have a lot of friends and people listen to the show that are power lifters, or they are in their 50s and 60s, and get into lifting, and they, you know, they do the fives, right? They do the triples, they do the doubles. And it can. Managed, right? It's one of those things of like, you got to be really on top of everything. But even so, you do hear about tendonitis, and you hear about joint issues and people pulling stuff and whatnot, because if you're just out of the wrong position, you know, in the wrong position on a very heavy load, something can happen. So it's kind of a nuanced thing. But yeah, I hear you.

Obi Obadike  35:18

I think as long as you're aware of the risk involved in it. That's the most important thing. I would never tell someone what not to do, but just understand, if you're lifting, really having your power lifting, let's say you're in your 40s and your 50s, you're not going to be doing that in your 70s. You're not going to be like, like your body will tell you to make the adjustment. You know, your body's gonna say, my elbow is killing me, my knees are killing me. I can't lift you know, I've seen it. You have to have seen a power lifter in their 70s or even their 60s, you know? And if they have like, God bless them. And if they are power lifters, they just started as a senior citizen, they weren't doing it for like, 3030, years or 40 years. It's true.

Philip Pape  36:01

There is that if you start late, you get that advantage.

Obi Obadike  36:04

I want to make the adjustment earlier and just understand, like, I don't want to be in pain, man, as I get older, you know what I mean? And I want to enjoy my life and and, yeah, it's good. We all want to push ourselves in the gym, and I do it. But there's a number that I don't go higher than anymore. You know, I don't like, even when I do flat dumbbell chest press back in the day, I'd go up to 120s or I don't go more than 100 anymore. Man, that's that's the max. It's 100 for me. It's just trying to maintain the muscle. And that's where I'm at. If you've been lifting for more than 10 years consistently, you're considered an experienced fitness enthusiast, and so once you've been lifting for more than 10 years consistently, the theory is that you've hit your genetic potential. You can't improve anymore. You're not going to get any more muscle. So when you know that, you're like, okay, even if I increase and go heavier and heavier heavier, I can't improve anymore. You know, like we're all going to we're all dealing with the gravity aspect as we get older, it's inevitable. Like I say, Father Time is undefeated. What are we doing? We're just slowing it down. We are slowing the decline down. That's what we're doing. Okay? We're just, we're trying to freeze that mofo without the fillers and the Botox. Excuse me. No,

Philip Pape  37:19

I hear that look. I mean, I know a lot of lifters that go after the PRS, but then there comes a time when they have to switch it up, switch off the mode, go into some more bodybuilding and some higher up stuff, and they might occasionally dip back into chasing the PRs. And maybe there's a weight that's an extreme, like anything. It's like bodybuilding. It's like, you know, Morris going through his transformation. It's like the short term extreme at some cost of your health short term. But it's like, we're humans. We want to do that, just

Obi Obadike  37:45

like someone in their 40s or 50s still playing rugby. You know when you're when you're in your 20s, and you know when you're young. You know young kid you play tackle football in the rain with no pads. You didn't care, you know if you got injured. And then when you get old, you're like, Oh man, I want to get injured, kidding me, you know, you just start making calculated decisions. I don't want to go crazy like that anymore. You know, I got nothing to prove, you know, but, uh, you know, like anyone that could do that, and, and, and they're able to stay healthy, God bless them. You know, I'm not hate, you know, like, wow, I'd be probably a fan. I can't believe he's able to lift like that at that age. Wow.

Philip Pape  38:24

Yeah, no, awesome. So I guess the last piece here, because you've alluded to it a few times, is maintenance of, you know, maintaining long term results. And I can think of a few different scenarios, not just longevity as we age, maintaining muscle, but like, for example, if you lean out right and you're really dialed in, and you want to just, yeah, we want to have a good physique. And maybe you're in your 30s or 40s, you're not like up there in your 70s. Yet. How do we maintain those results long term? Does it start with, like you said, having that balanced ingrained in the whole process, or is there some trade off that has to be made once you say, get to a certain leanness that you know, if you just had a little bit extra weight, it wouldn't be nearly as difficult to maintain that long term. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah,

Obi Obadike  39:03

you know, I feel like you have to figure out what your set point is, and everyone will know exactly what you're doing regular body composition test. There's a thing called the in body scan that I use with that I've used with clients and stuff like that. And you do the body composition test, and they'll tell you exactly how many calories that you need to consume to maintain your body weight, okay? And once you get an idea of that, then you'll know exactly, okay, this is the amount of calories that I can consume to maintain my body weight, and this is how I should probably spread out my calories, you know? So I think it's important to find out exactly you know how many calories is needed to be able to maintain your body weight. And you'll get that in a body composition exam, you know. And I do the in body scan, which I like. And I think that once you you know that, then the amount of calories you're consuming. And to maintain your body weight. And then that, to me, is probably more crucial than anything in terms of your body composition, and that obviously making sure that you know you're training enough consistently to be able to support the calories that you're consuming. So I think the amount of calories you're consuming that is needed to maintain your body weight is probably really important to be able to maintain your body composition. You know what I mean? So let's just say, for example, you know, you do a body composition, and it's saying that, hey, you know, if you consume 2200 calories a day, that's able to maintain your body composition presently, right now, which is what you're happy with right then, you know? Okay, well, this is what I need. And I maybe I spread out my calories in a 4040, 20 way, or maybe a 4030 you know, figure out what that macro split is. So I feel like the calories that you're consuming needed to maintain your body weight is probably critical to maintaining your composition over a long term period of time, and then making sure that the exercise activity is also mirroring that as well.

Philip Pape  41:10

Yeah, I like that. You brought it to just the simple, practical energy balance answer of like, to maintain you got to be a maintenance calories like, there's no sense or buts about it, because we get a lot of people expressing fear, for example, after a fat loss phase of I'm going to regain all the weight, or what have you. And assuming they've already been tracking, and they kind of know their calories down to that point to have gotten there with that control, you know, I like to say, like, just continue to track and continue to be aware, and the awareness is going to prevent you from just randomly over consuming What about the mental side of it? Let's say a guy has gotten down to, like, 10 to 12% right, which is pretty lean. It's not like, you know, the movie star lean, but it's also not like a lifestyle, kind of where you start to lose your six pack. Okay, so 10 to 12% is that sustainable for a long period, or is it really highly variable based on, you know, the individual, their genetics and things like that.

Obi Obadike  42:02

Well, you know what? It depends, depends on your genetics. We don't talk about genetics, you know. So for example, for me, right? I'm a natural ectomorph. I'm a naturally thin person, right? You know me maintaining a body fat of like eight or 7% or six to 767, to 8% is easy for me. That's maintenance for me, right? But that's my genetics, you know? And I have to be honest, I have the genetics right that helps me to maintain those low body fat levels where someone else that may not have the genetics, that may not be a mesomorph or whatever, or someone that can maintain a high amount of muscle or state and have low body fat levels may not be able to do that like they're coming down to 10 to 12% but they're having the diet they're bought off. They haven't eat perfectly. And then if they eat in a normal way, without being in and they were extreme to get the 10 to 12, and then when they eat normally, that 10 to 12 goes up to maybe their set point. Their set point may be probably about 1516, 17% so why is that set point higher than mine? It's genetics. It sucks, man, this whole genetic lottery thing, it sucks because some people are just gifted, and they don't have to work, they don't have to probably eat like somebody else to maintain their set point. And that genetics is really going to dictate to how extreme you have to be to maintain a certain level of body fat, body composition that might be unreasonable for someone else, but reasonable for another person. That genetic lottery thing, it's a real thing.

Philip Pape  43:50

Yeah, no, I agree. And it's like we have to acknowledge that and not let it defeat us. Have realistic expectations, right? Have realistic expectations. As far as Yeah, my set point is probably 14% or which is much higher than yours. And you know, I was never in shape my whole life until I got older. So that could be part of it, too. You know, genetics, epigenetics, from when you're young. It

Obi Obadike  44:09

definitely could be. Because I think once you get to a point where you get comfortable training and eating a certain way, just your body starts to it, becomes used to it. But if you're someone who started late in the game. You know, it does take time for your body to get used to it. For me personally, I don't really eat. I eat when I'm hungry. I don't have I don't write down my calories, you know, and I don't even, surprisingly, I don't eat that much. I'm not really a big breakfast eater. I kind of more in the morning time. I do more of an intermittent fasting thing, and then I my biggest meals are lunch and dinner and then snacks in between. But that works for me, people that have been around me. So this guy doesn't eat that much. How he's able to maintain that type of muscle? You know, it's interesting. You know,

Philip Pape  44:52

it's very interesting. And I think if you do have a tendency to be on the heavier side, or it's harder to get down to the body fat, maybe. That's a good clue to, like, focus on building muscle, you know, instead. And just kind of because it does offset it a bit, I will say, from personal experience, like you see your abs at a higher scale weight when you have more muscle, like, that's just the fact of it. You still have to get lean, though, right? So it's kind of a blend, all right, man. So this has been a cool conversation. I do like to ask this question, of all guests, Ovi and that is, is there anything you wish I had asked today that I didn't and what is your answer? No,

Obi Obadike  45:24

no, no. Look, I anytime I get opportunity to talk about health and fitness and diet and nutrition, it's always a blessing, and I hope that anybody listening was able to take some nuggets and apply it to their everyday life. So I appreciate the opportunity. And I just wanted to say, hey, I have a supplement company called ethical inc.com and if anyone's interested in uh, purchasing any uh, weight loss supplements, like an appetite suppressant or a probiotic for gut health or even a multivitamin, go to ethical inc.com and if anyone's looking to want to get in better shape online, you know, I work with everyday people and celebrities, you can go to Obi obadiah.com and that's it. And I'm on social media, and for anyone's looking to I'm always posting articles and free health and wellness articles, you know, every other day to try to motivate and help people for free. So yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much. What's

Philip Pape  46:15

the best social platform for you?

Obi Obadike  46:16

Instagram, I would say. But I'm on Instagram and Facebook. I'm on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. I'm active daily. So, yeah,

Philip Pape  46:23

got it? Got it? Yep, super responsive. All right. So ethical link.com, obediki.com, and Instagram, Facebook, Twitter handles. We'll throw those in the show notes. Thanks again, man, it's been a pleasure. A lot of great knowledge in here. I'm sure people will learn you know at least a few things that are gonna level up their game. So thanks so much, man, Philip,

Obi Obadike  46:39

thanks a lot for having me on and much success to you and keep doing what you're doing. My brother.

Philip Pape  46:43

Thank you, sir. You.

The Paris 2024 Olympics Strategy for More Muscle and Less Fat (Optimization Theory) | Ep 201

How do Olympic athletes achieve peak performance while optimizing their body composition? The 2024 Paris Olympics are in the final stretch this week, so we're celebrating with this special themed episode!

Olympic athletes (and most athletes) strategically cycle their nutrition to achieve the targeted goal at the targeted time.

We're applying this concept to YOUR goals (on YOUR schedule), using the engineering principle of Optimization Theory. You'll learn how to use nutritional periodization to build more muscle, lose fat, prevent plateaus, and make your diet more effective and sustainable—and then optimize it for your unique circumstances.

If you're tired of yo-yo dieting or struggling to improve your body composition, this episode will show you how to engineer your nutrition like an Olympian preparing for Paris 2024.

To learn more about optimizing your body composition using this approach, join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email

Main takeaways:

• Nutritional periodization, inspired by Olympic athletes, can be adapted for everyday body composition goals.

• The cycle includes Building, Maintenance, Leaning Out, and Recovery phases, each with specific nutritional focuses.

• Optimization Theory allows for continuous fine-tuning based on individual responses and data.

• This approach not only leads to physical changes but can transform your relationship with food and your body.

Episodes mentioned:

• My 3 New Dieting Methods for Smarter, Easier Fat Loss in 2024 | Ep 186

• My Stair-Step Fat Loss Process to Get Lean and Ripped | Ep 191

Episode summary:

We dive deep into the principles that Olympic athletes use to achieve peak performance and optimal body composition. By aligning nutrition with your body's natural rhythms and incorporating periods of progress, maintenance, and recovery, you can avoid the pitfalls of yo-yo dieting and inconsistent energy levels. This blog post will explore the key topics discussed in the episode, providing you with actionable insights to transform your body and achieve your fitness goals sustainably.

Nutritional periodization is a strategy used by elite athletes that involves cycling through different phases of nutrition to optimize performance and body composition. The four distinct phases are building, performance, leaning out, and recovery. Each phase plays a crucial role in muscle gain and fat loss, making the journey toward your fitness goals more effective and sustainable.

The building phase focuses on muscle growth. During this phase, you create a slight calorie surplus and increase carbohydrate intake to fuel your workouts and support muscle development. It's important to consume enough protein to aid in muscle repair and growth. This phase might come with some weight gain, but it's essential for building a strong foundation.

Next is the performance phase, where you maintain the gains achieved during the building phase. Here, you shift to maintenance calories, ensuring you have enough energy to sustain your performance levels. This phase helps you hold onto the muscle and strength gains while preventing unnecessary fat accumulation.

The leaning out phase involves a controlled calorie deficit to improve your strength-to-weight ratio or reveal muscle definition. During this phase, protein intake might increase to preserve muscle mass while reducing overall calorie intake. This phase is particularly beneficial for athletes who need to make weight classes or individuals aiming to achieve a leaner physique.

Finally, the recovery phase brings you back to maintenance calories, giving your body a break from dieting. This phase is crucial for mental and physical recovery, preventing burnout, and preparing you for the next cycle of nutritional periodization. It's a time to focus on sustaining your habits and enjoying the benefits of your hard work.

Optimization theory, an engineering principle, plays a significant role in nutritional periodization. By maximizing or minimizing a function, you can find the best solution for your fitness goals. This approach involves continuously gathering data and making small, calculated adjustments based on your individual response. Tracking metrics such as scale weight, circumference measurements, lifting progression, and biofeedback like hunger, recovery, energy, digestion, sleep, and stress levels are essential for fine-tuning your nutrition plan.

One of the most transformative aspects of nutritional periodization is its impact on your relationship with food and your body. Instead of perpetual dieting or avoiding structure, you adopt a strategic and purposeful approach to nutrition. This method not only leads to physical changes but also fosters a healthier mindset toward food and body composition.

For example, one of our clients, Sarah, experienced a profound transformation through nutritional periodization. After years of yo-yo dieting, she learned to map out her nutrition over six to twelve months, aligning it with her goals. By starting with a maintenance phase, she relieved the pressure of constant dieting and developed sustainable habits. During the leaning out phase, she achieved significant fat loss without crash dieting. The recovery phase allowed her to maintain her results and enjoy a balanced approach to nutrition.

Nutritional periodization offers a structured approach that can be tailored to anyone's body composition goals, not just elite athletes. It provides a clear roadmap, enabling you to progress efficiently and sustainably. Whether you're aiming to build muscle, lose fat, or improve overall performance, this strategy helps you achieve your goals without constant struggle.

To further support your fitness journey, we invite you to join our email list at witsandweights.com/email. By signing up, you'll receive exclusive content, practical tips, and direct access to our community. This is an opportunity to gain valuable insights and support as you work toward your fitness goals. Remember, achieving your dream physique requires a strategic and personalized approach, just like the athletes preparing for the Paris 2024 Olympics.

In summary, nutritional periodization is a powerful principle that aligns your nutrition with your body's natural rhythms. By cycling through the phases of building, performance, leaning out, and recovery, you can achieve sustainable muscle gain and fat loss. Optimization theory helps you make small, calculated adjustments based on your individual response, ensuring efficient progress. This strategy not only transforms your physical appearance but also improves your relationship with food and your body. Embrace nutritional periodization, and start your journey toward peak performance and sustainable fitness today.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

What we're talking about today is how these Olympic athletes strategically cycle their nutrition to achieve peak performance, but also optimize their body composition, as some sports call for that. And if you're listening to this and you have a goal of leaning out, of building muscle, losing fat, we are going to talk about using the engineering principle of optimization theory to do that to build more muscle, lose fat, prevent plateaus, make your diet more effective and sustainable. So if you're tired of the yo-yo dieting, if you're not sure what to do with your diet, if you're struggling to improve your body composition, this episode will show you how to engineer your nutrition like an Olympian. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip P, and I want you to think about this. You've been dieting on and off for months, maybe for years, and sometimes you make progress, sometimes you don't. Your energy fluctuates, your workouts feel inconsistent, you're not quite sure if you're building muscle or kind of spinning your wheels and going up and down Sound familiar. Well, what if I told you that there is a way to structure your nutrition that allows for both muscle gain and fat loss without feeling like you're constantly fighting this uphill battle and not really making progress. And this is a method that aligns with your body's natural rhythms, perhaps even with your schedule, with periods of progress, with periods of progress, with periods of maintenance, with periods of recovery. Whatever life throws at you, you can handle it, and that's what we're exploring in today's episode, which is all about optimization theory. We're going to break down how you can apply the nutritional strategies of Olympic athletes to your own body composition goals, even if you never plan to compete or step on a platform or go to the Olympics, like most of us won't.

Philip Pape: 2:09

Before we dive in, if you're enjoying the show, if you want more content on building muscle and losing fat efficiently, if you want content on periodization, sign up for my email list. The link is in the show notes or you can just go to witsandweightscom slash email and you will get all sorts of unique angles, interesting strategies, helpful content. Some of it's psychology, some of it's training, some of it is nutrition, special promotions, challenges all that fun stuff that you would only get on the email list. Again, click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email. So when most people think about dieting, they often fall into one of two camps the chronic calorie cutter, who's always restricting you know who you are. Or the eat whatever whenever crowd or eat in moderation. Or, you know, cut carbs or whatever, who avoids any form of structure other than some general blueprint or diet. Here's the thing neither of these approaches is optimal. I think you know that they're not optimal if you want to achieve and maintain your best physique and not even optimal. They're not even effective, they're not even sustainable, and that's the use of optimal that I'm using today.

Philip Pape: 3:13

But that is where a concept called nutritional periodization comes in, and it's a strategy used by athletes in general. That's where we get the concept from, but it can be definitely applied to you. It's not just for elite competitors. We can adapt it to body composition for anyone, and in fact, it's exactly the approach that I take with my clients, whether it is in Physique University or one-on-one clients. That is what we do. So I want to talk about optimization theory and you'll see how this all comes together, about optimization theory and you'll see how this all comes together In engineering. This is a principle that is about maximizing or minimizing a function to find the best solution. In our case, we are using nutritional periodization to maximize fat loss and muscle retention, or to gain muscle and minimize fat gain, right, all while minimizing the negative impacts of our dieting, because we want it to be at least sustainable, if not enjoyable, depending on what process we're in.

Philip Pape: 4:15

So if we think about the Olympics and we think about athletes and how they do this, right, they do periodize their training. That is not what we're talking about today. I wanna talk about how they periodize their nutrition. That is not what we're talking about today. I want to talk about how they periodize their nutrition, and they tend to have four different phases or seasons. And so the one phase is the building phase, and this is where you are focusing on building muscle. You're in a slight surplus, you have higher carbs and you're either building strength or muscle. You're working on that skill and you're not selling yourself short in the energy department. You're giving yourself all that you need and, yes, it might come with a trade-off of you're going to gain some weight, kind of like the off season. Okay, that's one phase.

Philip Pape: 4:58

Then we have the performance phase. This is where you shift to potentially maintenance calories. Right, you've gotten the skill development, you've gotten the strength, you've gotten the muscle and now you're going to balance things out and fuel your performance and hold on to those gains from the building phase. Then you might have a leaning out phase, especially for sports where they need an improved strength to weight ratio. Right, think of endurance athletes, where you need to lean out and get a little bit lighter. There's a lot of examples of this. Not all sports apply right. In some sports, bigger, bigger, bigger is better, and I'm not really talking about those. So the lean out phase this is where we now introduce a gradual calorie deficit. Maybe the protein comes up a little bit, you reveal some of the muscle you've built, or you lighten out just to reduce scale weight, maybe for a weight class or some other performance metric. But again, if you just care about how you look or your physique or aesthetics, this is also simply where you're going to reveal that muscle.

Philip Pape: 5:51

And then, finally, we have the recovery phase, which is where we get back to maintenance calories. We come out of the dieting phase and then we focus back on getting to the routine we were in before before we get back to the next cycle of building. Now, through all of these cycles, the principles are roughly the same, but there are changes. There are differences. It cannot be helped. The calories change, the hunger signals change, the goal is different, even though the principles are roughly the same.

Philip Pape: 6:21

And again you might be thinking look, I'm not an athlete, do I need to do all this? Do I need to do cuts and bulks and all this stuff? And the beauty of this approach is it doesn't have to be extreme, it doesn't have to be even that difficult. It could be very gradual and you can spend as long as you want in any of these phases. You could even skip some phases in certain cases. And it really comes down to how quickly not quickly as in quick fix, but how much you're willing to go in one direction or another and really step on the gas pedal to, overall, improve your body composition a little more efficiently than someone else who might be okay coasting for a while, right?

Philip Pape: 6:56

So for the average person, what does this look like? All right, in the building phase, you might have a very slight surplus, something like this a quarter percent of your body weight a week, right, and that's where you would have plenty of protein. You would still have good quality food. You might have to have extra food, though, to get the calories in. You're gonna have more carbs and you're gonna be training really hard and really building your growth, your muscle, without excessive fat gain. And for some of you, building phase can be very lean, but I typically recommend around that sweet spot of 0.2 to 0.3% body weight a week.

Philip Pape: 7:31

The performance phase, that's the next one. That's where you get out of the building muscle and you come back to more of a maintenance phase where you stay there for a while. You sustain your habits, you sustain your body composition. Maybe you're a little bit heavier and you're ready for a cut, but you've come out of that building phase and this may be as short as zero days for some people who just want to go straight into a cut, or it may be hey, I'm going to hang out here for a while and take advantage of my larger body mass for my numbers and everything else.

Philip Pape: 7:58

Then we get to the leaning out phase and most people listen to my podcast. They're coming here. They're like how do I lose fat? Or most people sign up as a client. You know how do I lose fat? Not everyone. Some people want to go straight into the building phase, but leaning out is where we apply that moderate calorie deficit. You know, moderate for you, which could be aggressive for someone else, but for you it might be moderate to aggressive, depending on your calories, depending on your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 8:21

And we do it strategically and we do it for a defined period. And by strategically I mean there's many ways to do it. We could do it as a straight line, like every day you're eating these calories, or we can alter it, we can cycle it, we can even cycle the dieting phase with breaks and these are topics I've talked about extensively on some of my recent episodes, such as my stair-step fat loss process or my three new dieting methods. Go check those out. And then we have recovery. We always have to have recovery out of a dieting phase, right, not a reverse diet, not a reverse diet. We recover straight to our maintenance calories and we give our bodies and minds a final break from that deficit. And we've revealed our muscle and now we are ready to walk around and just maintain those results for as long as we want, until you get the bug for the next building phase, which many of us do. So that is what we mean by periodization, and this allows us to optimize our nutrition for our goals at different times, just like Olympians do, just like athletes do, but tailored to your everyday life and body composition goals.

Philip Pape: 9:22

Now, I mentioned optimization theory before and I really want to tie it to that and show you where it comes into play, because throughout this process, we're constantly gathering data and making adjustments. Without that, you cannot do this, you simply can't. It is going to be so much more frustrating. You're not going to know what's going on, there's going to be much more uncertainty and it's going to take a lot longer. My clients want to be efficient, they want to get it done, they want to know what's happening, they want to have confidence and they want to be able to fire me and do it on their own. And so this curiosity of hey, what's going on with my body? What's going on with my? Well, we're going to talk about the metrics. We track, but what's going on, so that I can make those adjustments and rapidly prototype my body along the way and go from start to finish as efficiently as possible, rather than blindly following some fixed plan.

Philip Pape: 10:14

We're optimizing it based on our individual response, and that means tracking not just your scale weight which you should and daily would be ideal but also your circumference measurements your lifts, your lifting, progression, progress photos and, most importantly, honestly is how you feel, your biofeedback, your hunger, your recovery, are you recovering well from workouts, are you sore? Your energy, your digestion, your sleep, your stress. All of this is valuable data and then, like an engineer fine-tuning a system, we make small adjustments, just small adjustments. Right? Maybe you need a few more carbs in the building phase to fuel your workouts. Maybe you can handle a slightly larger deficit in the leaning out phase without losing muscle. And the key here is we are not making drastic changes. We're making small, calculated adjustments to optimize our results. And that's exactly what Olympic athletes and their nutritionists do, and they pay them a lot of money, or somebody pays them a lot of money and you can do this on your own. You can do this with a little bit of support. You can get a little extra support by reaching out to me and we can talk about that. But they're constantly fine tuning, based on their performance and based on their body composition data, to get where they need to be. And the real power of this just to give you a little bit of a surprise here at the end is nutritional periodization. While it does give you the physical changes. It profoundly transforms your relationship with food and your relationship with your body.

Philip Pape: 11:43

All right, so one of my clients I'm going to call her Sarah. She came to me after years of yo-yo dieting very common, right, you've been dieting for years and she was either always on a diet and she tried all the fad diets, including keto, which is probably the most popular one today, other than, say, carnivore. Uh, I think she did weight watchers in the past as well. She was either on or she was, you know, off the wagon, off the track, right, there's no in between. And even if there's an in between, it's like no man's land uncertainty.

Philip Pape: 12:13

And we started with the maintenance phase, at the recovery phase, as the lead up to the leaning out phase. And we talked about periodization and how, hey, we're going to map out the next six to 12 months and I mean literally map it out Like I will take a whiteboard, we'll draw a quick, quick and dirty little graph for the next 12 months and we'll scratch out what it looks like to periodize your nutrition over time. And it completely changed her perspective and I see this all the time. It's this aha moment of oh wow, like I can actually do this and I know with certainty that I'm going to go from here to there and here there maybe. Maybe as simple as I'm going to lean out with 15 pounds of fat loss right During the building phase.

Philip Pape: 12:53

Uh, you then, once you've leaned out, what's cool about that is, once you've leaned out, now you're confident you can do it. We can go the other direction and you're confident you can do that without gaining too much weight, just gaining the right amount of weight and doing it on purpose, to build muscle. And then you learn to eat, not for emotion or because you can't help yourself, but you eat for performance, you eat for recovery, you care about nutrient density and whole foods because they fuel you and they feel good, not because they're quote unquote healthy. When you're in a maintenance phase, you practice sustaining the new habits, and Sarah did exactly that right. She now knew what to do. She didn't have the pressure of being on a diet, but it wasn't like going back quote unquote back to whatever you were eating before. It's still eating the same way. It's just scaling things a little bit.

Philip Pape: 13:38

And when she was in a fat loss phase, she learned that she could lose fat without crash dieting. And that's the key it's controlled, it's controlled and then you don't do it forever. You give your body a break with the recovery. And this is so typical of pretty much everybody I work with. And in her case, by the end of that fat loss phase it was about 16 weeks she had lost something like 18 pounds. I was looking at her data. She lost about 18 pounds of fat, lost several inches on her waist. She actually gained some muscle because there was a net improvement in her body composition while she was losing fat, so she had some recomp. She actually built some muscle and lost some fat, so she didn't even have to lose that much weight on the scale. The most important thing is she now had this sustainable, fun, enjoyable approach to nutrition that she can maintain long term. She knew how to handle vacations. She knew how to handle vacations. She knew how to handle going out. She knew how to handle being in the summer versus being in the winter, versus the holidays versus the spring.

Philip Pape: 14:34

And that's the power of nutritional periodization, right, it's not just about the physical, it's the approach that keeps you progressing year after year and you enjoy the process All right. So, as we wrap up, let me just recap all of this. Number one nutritional periodization is a powerful principle that we can live by, that is used by athletes and we can adapt it for our own body composition goals. Number two it involves cycling through different phases building, maintenance, leaning out, recovery each with its own focus, each with its own goal. Number three by applying optimization theory, we can continually fine tune our approach in those phases, based on our individual response and data. It's not fixed. And number four this strategy not only leads to physical changes, but can also transform your relationship with food and your body.

Philip Pape: 15:30

Achieving and maintaining your ideal body composition, your dream physique, whatever you want to call it, isn't about perpetual dieting. It isn't about avoiding structure. It's not about intuitive eating. It's not just quote, unquote, listening to your body. It's strategic planning. It's purposeful nutrition with intent and ongoing optimization based on your feedback. That's it. That's really what it is when you put it all together, it's clarity and confidence.

Philip Pape: 15:55

All right, again, if you want to learn more about optimizing your body composition using this approach and many of the other things that we'd use, just join my free email list. That's all you got to do Join the list, you'll get the information and then, of course, if you ever want to reach out. You can reply and say hey, philip, what's up, I have a question and I'll answer it. That's it, simple. Go to witsandweightscom, slash email or click the link in my show notes. You'll get exclusive content that I don't share anywhere else tips on how to apply principles like these, journey, and you have a direct line of connection to me and our community. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember, in nutrition, as in the Paris 2024 Olympics, it's all about strategic periodization and optimizing. For you, this is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights and I'll talk to you next time.