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Ep 160: Why “Eat Less, Move More” Is Terrible Advice for Your Metabolism, Hormones, and Fat Loss
How often have you been told to “eat less, move more” to lose weight? Does this advice have any merit whatsoever? Philip explains why the common weight loss advice to "eat less, move more" is terrible. He discusses the importance of muscle mass for a healthy metabolism, how protein and strength training can help maintain muscle, and why simply eating less and doing more cardio isn’t always the best approach. He also talks about the role of carbs in fat loss and the benefits of cardio for metabolic health. Philip also highlights the importance of hydration, good sleep, and stress management for metabolic function. He discusses the impact of alcohol on metabolism and hormones and the importance of whole foods for metabolic health.
How often have you been told to “eat less, move more” to lose weight? Does this advice have any merit whatsoever?
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) goes over the real reasons holding you back from sustainable fat loss and optimal metabolic health, and it’s NOT because you’re not doing enough exercise or restricting your calories enough.
Philip explains why the common weight loss advice to "eat less, move more" is terrible. He discusses the importance of muscle mass for a healthy metabolism, how protein and strength training can help maintain muscle, and why simply eating less and doing more cardio isn’t always the best approach. He also talks about the role of carbs in fat loss and the benefits of cardio for metabolic health. Philip also highlights the importance of hydration, good sleep, and stress management for metabolic function. He discusses the impact of alcohol on metabolism and hormones and the importance of whole foods for metabolic health.
Philip bases his notes on the FREE Metabolism audit that you can take on the Wits and Weights website for a personalized assessment: https://www.witsandweights.com/free-metabolism-assessment
Today, you’ll learn all about:
3:25 Five-star reviews
6:32 Misconceptions about the "eat less, move more" advice
8:22 The importance of muscle mass for metabolism
9:53 Supporting muscle growth with protein
11:04 The principles of strength training and overload
14:07 Fueling your body and staying active
21:16 Avoiding sedentary behavior
22:30 Why the "eat less, move more" approach is destructive
25:17 Hydration, sleep, and stress management
30:05 Chronic stress and its effect on metabolism
32:56 Whole/unprocessed foods, dairy, grains, and alcohol
42:17 Personalized metabolism audit for optimal health
43:49 Outro
Episode resources:
When it comes to fat loss and muscle gain, the fitness world is awash with misinformation. One pervasive myth is the oversimplified advice to "eat less, move more." However, this advice ignores the complexities of the human body, particularly how metabolism and muscle mass contribute to sustainable health.
Understanding metabolism is key to achieving sustainable fat loss. It is not just about the calories you consume and burn; it is about the quality of those calories and how they influence your hormonal balance and metabolic rate. The episode highlights the importance of muscle mass in boosting metabolic health, emphasizing that even a small increase in muscle can significantly enhance daily calorie burn. The role of hormones is also dissected, providing a more nuanced view of weight management.
Philip challenges the misconception that carbohydrates are the enemy, explaining why a moderate balance of carbs, proteins, and fats is crucial for peak performance. He debunks the myths surrounding carbs, advocating for their inclusion, particularly around workouts, to aid recovery and provide energy. This balanced approach to nutrition not only supports an active lifestyle but is also key to thriving physically as the years advance.
But what about strength training? Frequency and progression are essential for muscle growth, and this episode provides actionable advice on how to optimize your gym time. The principles of proximity to failure and progressive overload are discussed, teaching listeners how to build muscle effectively. The conversation then turns to the importance of recovery, highlighting how underfueling and overtraining can disrupt hormonal balance and metabolism, ultimately making fat loss more challenging.
Hydration, sleep, and stress management are also covered as essential components of metabolic health. These factors often get overshadowed by diet and exercise, but they are just as crucial. Proper hydration post-exercise is vital, and sleep quality and quantity play a significant role in maintaining hormonal balance.
The episode concludes by emphasizing the power of whole, unprocessed foods in a balanced diet. It encourages a dietary approach that comprises mostly whole foods like meats, vegetables, fruits, seeds, nuts, and grains. The discussion touches on the impact of ultra-processed foods on metabolism and satiety, promoting moderation and mindful eating.
This episode is a comprehensive guide to rethinking health and fitness. It challenges common misconceptions and equips listeners with the knowledge to take control of their metabolic health for a more energized and muscular physique. For anyone tired of fad diets and looking for lasting change, this episode is a must-listen.
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
Are you tired of hearing the same old advice to eat less and move more when it comes to fat loss? In this episode, we're going to dive into the science behind metabolism and hormones. Revealing why this over simplified approach fails to give you sustainable results. You'll learn how to audit your own metabolism for improved hormones and fat loss. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 159 Change how you train hard forever with natural bodybuilders Steve Hall, you learned what it really means to train hard, and how to effectively apply scientific research to your own training. We got into the nuances of key training principles like reps and reserve proximity to failure and minimum effective volume and how these concepts relate to muscle growth. We discussed how to bridge the gap between research and practice based on your individual response to optimize your gains while minimizing injury. Today for Episode 160, Why eat less move more is terrible advice for your metabolism hormones and fat loss. We're going over the real reasons holding you back from sustainable results, and optimal metabolic health. And it's not because you're not doing enough exercise, or restricting your calories enough. Instead, you're going to learn why eat less move more is terrible advice and the roll that other factors like muscle mass fueling your body properly and moving the right way among others play in regulating your metabolism, which is everything. I'm basing my notes off today, the free metabolism audit that I have on my website, which you can access by going to Whitson weights.com. And you click the free Audit button, the big blue button at the top right. And you can take this very quick audit, and you will get a an assessment from me and my team as to what exactly it means. And if you wanted to go through that now, while you're listening to the podcast, the details that I'm sharing today are going to align with those questions so that you understand why I'm asking you that I'm going to be totally transparent. If you listen to this show, and you follow along with the audit, you could almost do your own assessment, I encourage you to submit it anyway, because we go into a little bit more detail than that and clue in on the specific things that are opportunities for you, let's say or strengths for you. And so if you want to get that free audit, just have to go to Whitson weights.com. And click the free metabolism audit in the top right or click the link in the show notes. Always in these episodes, I have a section called episode resources right below the text that gives you a concise bullet list of resources that you can go to that we talked about here. So before we get into the whole metabolism discussion, and I think it's gonna be very comprehensive today, sometimes I get into metabolism, and we cover one specific area. Today, it's kind of the whole ball of wax, and will allow you to decide what's important to you, and where are the areas that potentially you fall short that you want to improve. Before we do that, I wanted to share three more recent five star reviews from Apple. And I'm always grateful for these because not only do they give me good insight into how people perceive the show, but they also help others who are browsing, judge the value of it and whether they should listen like is it for them. And if you are listening right now, and you haven't ever submitted a review, this is one of the best ways you can support me honestly, just head over to whatever your app you use. Most of you, that's apple and Spotify and just submit a rating if it's Spotify, or a rating and review. If it's apple, just take you three minutes. If you need any help on what to write, or you know how to write it, I can let you know. But honestly, if you just sent me a testimonial, it'd be that put that in the review and I would really appreciate it. Okay, so the three reviews the first one is from number two, always helpful and insightful. Always learn from this gentleman good presenter of good info. And I just wanted to include that because I rarely get called a gentleman from somebody who calls themselves number two. Pretty cool. All right, the next one is to the point and helpful. I really like Philips approach to the whole body fitness, from muscles to mindset. He's a great podcast host energetic and thoughtful about the content of each episode. Great show. That term Whole Body Fitness. That's great. I don't know that I've ever used that. Some people use the term holistic, which I'm not a huge fan of just because it has some baggage that goes with it, I guess. But Whole Body Fitness, including your mind is a great way to put it. And oh and that's from linsell sorry, I didn't include them. Name, and the last reviews from some phonics, excellent info. I appreciate Philips no nonsense delivery of the facts. As someone looking to lose weight but retain muscle. I feel like I'm in the right spot, great podcasts easy to listen to, etc. Awesome. Appreciate those reviews concise to the point. They tell me how you feel and what you get out of the show and continue to inspire me and the listeners to keep producing these episodes. Alright, let's get into today's topic. Why eat less move more is terrible advice for your metabolism hormones and fat loss. Alright, let's be honest, for years, for years, and even to this day in the diet industry in the fitness industry, we've been told that the key to losing weight and getting healthy, right, and we can question whether even losing weight is the right goal. Let's we can go there. But the key to this is just eat less and move more. I see it all the time I see people posting on I don't know social media, and they ask for some advice. And occasionally we'll get commenters in there and they're like, eat less, move more. It's that simple. Like just do that, you know, like all these other commenters are just going on and on. And you just got to eat less and move more. The problem is this advice. Besides being simplistic like any bad advice, it overlooks the role of your metabolism and your hormones in regulating body composition, and overall health. Because both the eat less and move more sides of the equation can backfire. Big time, we'll get into the details why what you know, piece by piece here we are going to break it down. But just at a very high level. And I get asked about this on podcast to where they talk about why doesn't that work? Like what's the biggest misconception. And one of the biggest misconceptions is that number one, weight loss is a worthy goal. And number two, weight loss via a lot of running or cardio and then cutting your calories dramatically is the way to go. The problem is the body is very good at adapting the body is very good at saying okay, you want to run a lot, we're going to get really good at running and very efficient and burn as few calories as possible because you'd like to run and your metabolism goes down. And then you have to run more and more and more, if that's the method by which you're trying to lose weight. And then the eating less side well, the less you eat, the more your metabolism adapts downward metabolic adaptation, and the more your hormones down regulate, and the more your body fights back by being conservative and causing you to eat less and less. So both sides of that equation actually do the opposite of what we're trying to do. But rather than just hype on that theory, or principle or idea, the reason I created this metabolism assessment is to help you understand your individual metabolic health because you might be doing 10 out of 20 things perfectly fine to help you metabolism. And then the other 10 things are the opportunities, you might not know what those are, and why they are contributing to an inability to lose weight. And again, we don't want to just lose weight, we want to lose fat. So that means we're gonna lose weight while lifting weights. A separate topic though. And throughout this topic, we're going to tie the concepts from that metabolic assessment to the theme of like, Eat less move more fails to address all of these complexities. So let's get into some some of the science behind it, you know, behind metabolic health. And we're gonna see what's more, I'll say a comprehensive approach, which by the way, none of this can be explained in a 32nd array on Instagram. So, you know, keep listening to the podcast. Okay, so the first part of the assessment, and I might jump around a little bit questions, one, four, and five, focus on the concept of the importance of muscle mass for metabolism, a few things we have to understand first muscle tissue is metabolically active. And all that means is that it burns calories, even at rest, right, that's not something that fat tissue does adipose tissue. And so the more muscle you have, the higher your resting metabolic rate will be. And this is why building maintaining muscle is crucial for fat loss and metabolic health because it gives you that higher baseline of metabolism. Now, before you say, Okay, I'm just going to build muscle, and that's all I have to do. And I'm gonna burn 500 more calories a day, it doesn't quite work like that. The evidence shows us that maybe six to nine calories per pound of muscle that you add. So if you added 10 pounds of muscle, you would burn up to say 90 extra calories a day. Now that's not nothing. But where that gets compounded is that by having more muscle mass, you're probably able to eat more and live at a higher scale weight. Because the muscles denser, you look leaner, you look great and healthy and you can carry more weight on the scale that burns more calories on top of the muscle and being stronger and fitter means you're healthier to be able to go to the gym more often and push and not be as ill and injured and the list goes on. And all of that also helps with your metabolic health and even just calorie burn because you're more active. Okay, so that's covered by questions one, four and five. Now to support that muscle growth and maintaining your mouth So during fat loss, we have to consume adequate protein very common thing we talk about a lot. But if you're new to the show, it's always good refresher. And this is covered by question two of the assessment. It's about protein. You know, protein is the building blocks for muscle tissue, it prevents muscle breakdown. And here we are just supporting that by including as much protein rich food as we can. The simple rule of thumb is eat protein every time you eat. Like if you don't even if you didn't want to track which I'd definitely prefer you track for more precision. But if you didn't want to just audit a typical day, at a high level, do I have protein in every meal and snack? The answer is no. Add those in, take that first step, whether it's animal products, like meat, dairy, or plants like legumes, or even protein powder, totally cool with all of that include lots of protein rich food in all of your meals and snacks. And you'll, you'll help your metabolism tremendously for a variety of reasons. Protein is more satiating, it burns more calories, it helps body composition and helps with muscle. Alright, so these all work together synergistically. In addition to protein, of course, the big thing that we all want to be doing. And hopefully, it's one of the reasons you're listening to the show, or will stick around is engaging in regular strength training, right resistance training, putting a load on your body. And the best approach to that the principle that we care about here is proximity to failure, combined with progressive overload. And if you want to make it even more simplistic, I call this training hard or lifting heavy is really all it is, it's lifting heavy enough weight, for enough volume, as close to failure as you can. And by close means anywhere from like zero to three reps from failure, and then progressing in one of those training variables over time. That's it. Okay. And questions four and five, focus on the frequency and progression of strength training that is so important, it's not enough to say am I strength training, it's Do I have the proper frequency, and progression of strength training frequency is necessary to give you the stimulus to adapt, and then go into the gym again, and push to the next level. If you don't have the frequency. For example, if you go to the gym on Monday, and you don't go again, for six more months, well, you're not going to be able to progressively overload because you wouldn't have maintained that adaptation. But if you go Monday, and then Wednesday, there's a very good chance that that's the frequency you need as a beginner to progress and get stronger each session. So if you don't have enough frequency, you're not going to do it. And then if you don't actually progress, you're not going to build muscle and then the gym time is effectively going to waist and becoming more of exercise or more of just, you know, cardio. And so if I were to give you a simple rule of thumb here, I would say most people would do well to resistance train at least three times a week, and then challenge yourself by gradually increasing the weight and or the reps over time. Simple. Okay? Simple, but not easy, as are many of these concepts. Now, let's talk about the advice, eat less move more again. Because what it usually leads to is muscle loss. If you're just moving more in the form of cardio, and you're not training, or you're not training effectively, and you're eating less, and you know, I've heard people say, who lift weights, I'm going to go to a fat loss phase, and I'm going to stop lifting weights so that I can burn more fat. And that has asked backward. Okay, that is the opposite, because you're just going to lose muscle and get skinny fat, right. So eat less move more often leads to muscle mass loss, and then that slows down your metabolism because when you drastically reduce calories, and you increase your exercise volume, your body's probably going to break down that muscle tissue for energy, it needs the energy, right. And this lowers your metabolic rate, it also makes hard to maintain fat loss in the long run, right makes you live at a lower metabolic rate. And so instead of focusing on this, let's prioritize building and maintaining muscle through adequate protein and regular strength training, okay, uh, beating a dead horse on that one. But it's got to be the top priority for most people here. Alright, so then we get to the next section of the assessment. And by the way, I'm not sharing this. So even if you're watching on YouTube, I'm not like showing the questions. But again, if you go to Whitson weights.com, and you click the big button at the top right free metabolism audit, you could see the 20 questions, just 20 Questions scale of one to five and you can take the whole test in like three minutes. So now let's talk about the importance of fueling your body properly, and staying active for metabolic health, which is different than eat less move more. We're talking about fueling. And we're talking about activity in general, not not necessarily moving more at all costs, and for all modalities. So question three in the assessment talks about carb intake, carbohydrate intake, and I'll just say it again, if you're new to me, if you've never heard me before, I love carbs, I believe and I believe the evidence supports that they are essential for energy for recovery and performance in your world. workouts, if you're sedentary, if you're not training, yeah, carbs aren't going to do you a lot of good, just like most calories aren't going to do a lot of good and you're just gonna have to try to maintain your weight as best you can keep the protein high and avoid losing as much muscle as you can, that's not a great place to be that's surviving, I want to thrive, I want to be strong fit, till I'm 95. And I croak doing a deadlift, something like that, that's my dream. So carbs are gonna help you do that, because most of the time, you should be spending, building muscle, not losing fat, because that is gonna pay off big time. And carbs are gonna help you do that. Alright, contrary to popular belief, and I don't know why it's so popular other than lots of great marketing, cutting carbs to extremely low levels, is not necessary at all for fat loss. And it can hinder your progress even during fat loss. So when I work with clients, and we get down to, you know, kind of tight calories and fat loss, the carbs definitely come down. And if you're a female who's at like, 1200 calories or something like that, the carbs can be around 100 grams or less, maybe. But it's a temporary state of being, and it's still higher than they probably would have been if they were doing keto, or low carb, if your metabolism is much higher than that, which is I'll say, two thirds of people, it's gonna be higher than that, then you're up in the mid one hundreds or higher for carbs, which most people wouldn't say is low carb, and that's during fat loss. While you're building muscle, you could be up in the 200 304, hundreds or more, you know, the guy might be more than that. And, you know, the more the merrier. As long as you've met your protein minimums, and your fat minimums, all the rest goes to carbs. All right? Having said that, people will say, Well, so are you advocating for high carb? No, I'm advocating for what I'd call moderate carb. It's just most people are used to low carb, same thing with the protein equation, are you advocating for high protein? No, it's actually moderate protein. When you look at percentages of this kind of balanced approach, they're actually all reasonable. They're just different than what we're used to. So aim to include a balanced amount of carbs in your diet, if you want to support your workouts, especially around your workouts. And this could include everything from fruits, to grains, to vegetables, to starches, and like legumes and things that have carbs as well, anything, any carbs, you know, I'm not asking you to consume a bunch of added sugar or anything like that. So that's where you know, people get into these straw man arguments. I'm talking about mostly Whole Foods. Alright. So that's how you fuel your body, you fuel your body with what it needs. We talked about protein, and we talked about carbs. And then in addition to proper, oh, by the way, I don't even know if I covered this in the assessment. But step one for most people is just eating more so that you're not accidentally dieting, and that's part of fueling your body as well is knowing that to perform and to build muscle, you cannot be diet. Alright. Alright, so in addition to proper fuelling daily movement and low intensity cardio with with a little bit of medium and high intensity sprinkled in, can support metabolic health. This is very different from thinking I need to go on the treadmill seven days a week and run for an hour. All right. So questions six, seven and eight in the assessment focus on on this concept. And while high intensity exercise can be beneficial for sure, if your priority is lifting and building muscle, and overall metabolic health, I think it's important that it becomes almost like third on the list after training and low intensity cardio. And by high intensity, I mean both medium and high intensity. So for example, medium intensity would be like jogging, and high intensity might be sprinting, right medium might be going for a slightly vigorous bike ride. Whereas high intense, you'd be like spinning, you know, super intense. So I think the less intense the cardio, the more the body's ability to do more of it, you know, higher volume of it during the week without interfering with the other priorities is simple scale. So if you talk about walking, you could pretty much do as much of that as you want, right? Is there a limit to that even potentially at like 30,000 steps, or something where now it's eating into everything else you're trying to do. But for most people, you can walk as much as you want, then you scale up to medium intensity. And I would say you could do several hours of that a week with no issue. And if you're in great cardiovascular health, potentially up to like eight hours a week or even 10 hours a week, if it's like truly just medium intensity where you can do it for a sustained amount of time. And then I would say high intensity, which is like hit training interval training to Bottas. You know, I would limit that to like an hour at most a week. So those are kind of the upper limits. A lot of people are doing too much overall anyway. And you've got to listen to your body, you've got to listen to your recovery capacity. If you're a fat loss, it's probably going to be less of the medium intensity and more of the low intensity. And then the high intensity kind of stays in that same range of up to an hour week. So it's a matter of balance, right? The activities all of this movement definitely helps due to cardiovascular health. Okay, no doubt about that. They can also increase your energy expenditure, which is why a lot of people think they need to do it right to burn more calories and that's true, too. an extent, if you do too much your body will adapt. This is why I like modes of cardio that change up, and where your body doesn't really get used to a particular mode for too long and become efficient at it. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of wits and weights. I started Whitson weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique, and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to Whitson weights.com and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. And if we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show. The other thing is cardio can support your recovery from workouts. So don't always think of it as as bad thing, cardio is gonna kill your gains, we've got to get out of that old school mindset. And think about a nice balance of having it in there. The other thing I want to mention here, and I'm talking about it more lately is not being sedentary, that's different from moving in, here's why it's different. Think about your typical day or week, if you're a lifter, you might go to the gym three or four days a week for an hour, hour and a half. Alright, great, you got that covered, then you might walk a lot, right? You go for a walk after lunch, go for a walk after dinner. You got that covered. But now how many hours are you sitting in between those activities? probably quite a bit. Most of us who have desk jobs or work remotely, are working at a desk sitting even standing like I'm standing recording this podcast, but I'm in one place and I know I need to fidget and kind of move around and otherwise my back will start to irritate me just standing in one place for too long. So there's evidence that says not being sedentary is independently beneficial, of being active and of course, strength training. So I think of them as three different modes. There's kind of all the cardio modes, there's strength training, and then there's not sitting around for too long at a time. The eat less move more, let's tie it back to that that approach. One of the reasons it's so destructive is it leads to under fueling what you just talked about how detrimental that is just to building muscle, and also overtraining, right? So overtraining, disruption, metabolism, and can lead to burnout and can lead to injury, it can inflame your joints, you know, inflammation, and on and on, you know, tendinitis, all of those things. So when you don't consume enough calories to support your activity levels, your body becomes catabolic. catabolic is the state of breaking down muscle tissue for energy. Protein is anabolic, great the process of building tissue, and carbs are anti catabolic. Let me say that, again. Carbs are anti catabolic, they prevent breakdown, they don't necessarily contribute toward building muscle, but they prevent the breakdown of muscle. So that is why I think carbs are almost as important as protein. This catabolic state, it holds you back in a few ways, it holds back your performance and recovery, it means when you go to the gym, you feel drained, you feel like you can't get another rep. Worse than that, it may cause you to have bad form and get injured, right. But it also leads to hormonal imbalances, it could also lead to metabolic adaptation. And it makes it harder to lose fat in the long run. Now, metabolic adaptation, I've talked about it before it exists, you cannot do anything about it, it exists, it's fine. But you don't want to be causing that adaptation, unless absolutely necessary because you are on a deliberate fat loss phase. And a lot of you listening to this are in a metabolically adapted state perpetually for months and years without really getting the benefit of being in that state. And the benefit would be fat loss, and doing it as quickly as you can and getting out knowing that one of the trades for that is what you're gonna have to eat a lot less. And even less than that because of adaptation. But it's quick, quick meaning a month, three months, you know, even six months could be quick, if you have a lot of weight to lose, but it's not yours. We want to get back to the maintenance and back to muscle building. So instead of pushing yourself to extremes with excessive cardio and calorie restriction, I want you to focus on fueling your body that take a positive approach. If it feels like it's a negative like you are having to do this or I have to cut or I have to say no question it. We want to fuel our body. We want to have a balanced flexible diet incorporating a mix of protein, carbs, fats, and a mix of low and high end tensity activities, right? That's kind of what an athlete does, they balance all these things to train, perform and feel your best. And then ultimately, you're going to look your best as an outward expression of that fitness. So metabolic health, energy, sustainable fat loss are all tied to these concepts. All right, then we get to the next section of the assessment, which focuses on some of the less sexy things, yet they could be the most important for you. Hydration, sleep, and stress management. Okay, so question nine, is about hydration. And we know that being adequately hydrated, regulates body functions. And that supports metabolism, just think about, if you were, if you were depriving all of your cells of a little bit of water, and they all felt a little bit dehydrated, just imagine they're turning into like little raisins. Okay, not this is not a real thing. But just as a metaphor, how well would those cells perform, right, they would probably say, hey, I need to stop doing certain things until I can get more water just like we as humans at the macro level. You know, if you're in the middle of the desert, and you're, you're, you're dehydrated, you don't have any water, you're gonna start to slow down, you're gonna crawl, you're gonna find shade, and you're gonna just hunker down, imagine yourself doing that. And now that is your metabolism, those cells are the things that are converting your energy and using it. And the more you go into that dehydration mode, even mild dehydration, you're going to slow down your metabolic rate. So people don't think about that. But hydration is not just yeah, get your water and get hydrated like this, this ambiguous concept, it's because all of your cells need that water. And if they don't have them, they're going to start shutting down. And I don't mean that in a dramatic way, but they're just going to be more efficient, the mitochondria becomes more efficient. This has been shown in evidence, they've studied this in petri dishes that these things, they just produce the exchange less energy, okay? So aim to drink plenty of water and electrolytes throughout the day, especially during and after exercise after training. The more I learned about this more I realized the benefits of and not as much during I mean during is important, but especially after, and the electrolytes, I don't like to make it too complicated, like the supplements are, most of them are not that great or even worth the money even though I've recommended them in the past and occasionally take some myself, a lot of them like elements have mainly salt. Some, though, have more of the other things like potassium, I'll tell you what, though, a banana has a lot of electrolytes, like just look at the nutrients, look at the minerals in a banana, go log into macro factor and take a look. And you'll see why I love a banana as a pre workout now, or a post workout. Okay, so enough about hydration, questions. 10 and 11 address the other two big ones here, sleep quality and quantity, right. And I have them separate because they're two different dimensions. But both are essential for particularly hormonal balance, which then again, leads to metabolic function, everything's tied your metabolism. When you don't get enough restful sleep, restful, deep sleep, REM sleep, you don't get up more than at most once a day, once a night. And usually that's just because you have to go to the bathroom. Like for me, it's actually kind of annoying. If I go to bed at 10am I alarm set for six. Like clockwork, my body will wake me up at like 545 teams the bathroom, right and I'm like no and 15 more minutes. But I might as well just get up. So I'm talking about more like closer to insomnia or you get up multiple times a night and you're not really sure why. And all of that is disruptive to your circadian rhythm to your hormones. They lead to increased appetite and cravings as well. We know that sleep deprivation makes you hungrier. But it's compounded by lowering your metabolic rate as well. So it's like two things happening at the same time in the wrong direction. One is you burn fewer calories and the other your body's telling you to eat more calories. Now poor sleep also elevates cortisol levels, right. And this goes back to circadian rhythm. Like if you're waking up in the middle of the night. And then if you're on top of that exposed to blue light in the middle of the night, all of these things can elevate your cortisol. And when you get up in the morning and you haven't had enough sleep, your stress levels higher. So stress and sleep go hand in hand. And this promotes fat storage. This promotes muscle breakdown because your body's like I need the energy from somewhere. And it also what's the other thing I was going to mention? Yeah, I've said this before, but it causes greater fat storage in the visceral fat around your organs, which is belly fat. So if you don't want as much belly fat, two big things for that are gonna be alcohol and sleep. Seriously, just those two things right there are massive for the belly fat. So what's the rule of thumb here? Try to get seven or nine hours of quality sleep each night quality sleep meaning no blue light before bed, you know no screens before bed for at least 3060 minutes. Have some sort of calming ritual. Make it cool, make it dark, use a sleep mask if you have to use a cooling mattress like there's so many hacks I'm not gonna to go through the whole list, but identify the one for you that might be the low hanging fruit. Stress is the other critical factor here. Big time. Okay, and these are addressed in I have three separate questions related to stress question 1213 and 14. We know that chronic stress, life stress, elevate your cortisol over time. And this just wreaks havoc on your metabolism, it promotes more fat storage, it impairs immune function. So all you ladies, but also men out there who have had weight loss resistance, you've had trouble, you know, losing fat, you feel like you're on super low calories, and you've already tried bringing up the calories above maintenance and training and all the other things. Stress and Sleep are probably the things that are still holding you back, honestly. And you may not even notice it, because you are used to you're used to so much stress in your life, being a caregiver, a spouse. And by caregiver, I mean could be your children could be your you know, elderly parents or older parents. It's work, its obligations, its finances, it's all the things. And again, sleep and stress go hand in hand. So this is where finding even 30 minutes a day to yourself for relaxation, or mindfulness, meditation, deep breathing, tech, even just a nap. Like if you have a one hour block, and you got six and a half hours of sleep last night, maybe the best way to reduce your stress is to sleep more, it's just get a 30 minute nap, put your sleep mask on your head set in or earplugs in, set an alarm for 45 minutes, probably take you 10 minutes to get to sleep, and then you get a half hour nap. All right. All of this will lower your stress levels and support your well being and this is translated into your metabolic rate. That means you could eat more food. If I could just say this whole list is do this and you can eat more. Do I have you? I have you there? Tell yourself that but this entire list any of these things improve, you can eat more food. So the Eat less move more often looks overlooks the importance of these as well. Because when you're chronically under fed, and you're over exercised, how can you prioritize these? You're just kind of dragging? How do you even prioritize these things, right. And so neglecting hydration, sleep stress can definitely sabotage your fat loss efforts and have other health costs consequences that we touched on. All right. So I think those lifestyle factors are just as important as nutrition and training. I mean, they're all important, it's what we have to say, and it's going to come down to what's most important for you right now, the lowest hanging fruit, that's why I encourage you to go to Whitson weights.com, click the button at the top rate free assessment, take the assessment, what you'll get is by email, you'll get a rating of your metabolic assessment, and you'll get an understanding of why. And then you can go from there, decide what you do about it. Okay, so the next section is about nutrition or food quality, as well as alcohol. So now we get into more of the food stuff, questions 15 and 16 focus on the importance of consuming whole unprocessed foods. Now, the importance of it means the majority of your food like 80 to 90% is whole unprocessed foods, it doesn't mean you're 100% clean, quote unquote, or you are cutting everything out that's processed, it doesn't mean that at all. In fact, most people in the Standard American Diet consume something like 70% of their food from processed sources, ultra processed sources, this could be everything from fast food to packaged foods to like cured meats, and the list goes on. And unfortunately, they're the population that we get a lot of our data from that, where we correlate with, say, for example, red meat, when you see studies that, you know, there's this persistent myth that red meat is, quote unquote bad for you. And yet, when you tease it apart from the standard population who eats a lot of processed red meats, you realize No, actually it's if it's part of a healthy dietary pattern is perfectly fine. And if anything, red meat is highly nutritious, so we get into these dichotomies in our brain, and we start cutting out foods or food groups. And that can be actually detrimental. Also, from a practical perspective, any living and enjoying life perspective to be so acidic monk like about this, and requiring the sheer discipline and willpower to do that is definitely a massive problem. Because it doesn't align with just living and enjoying your life and feeling like Food is fuel. Instead, you're feeling like it's, you're punishing yourself in some way. Anyway, so when I say the importance of consuming whole and unprocessed foods, it's like 80%, which doesn't take a lot of effort once you think about it. And if you're tracking your food, just you go to the grocery store, you buy some things around the edge of the store, animal products, plant products, and starches and grains even and you start to mix them together in some meals, and you enjoy yourself and then hey, I want ice cream for dessert. I'm gonna have ice cream for dessert. That's my process, food allotment or whatever and bilott minutes pretty big allotment 10 to 20% So I wanted to get that out of the way. But going back to the importance of Whole Foods, these are foods that are just minimally processed or not processed. So we're talking, you know, meat, vegetables, fruit, seeds, nuts, grains, all of that. Now, some people might argue that grains are processed. And so this gets into the whole subjective argument of what do we mean by processing? There's levels of processing? And people would say, well, protein powder that's processed. Yeah, it's minimally processed, for sure. But then you could argue that every single food in the grocery store is processed, because you didn't go and slaughter the cow, did you? You didn't go and pick the carrot out of the ground, did you? It had to get quote unquote, processed along the way. So let's not mince words, or let's not be semantic about it. And just just assume that if it came out of the ground, or came from the animal, and had minimal processing, or no processing, that it's more on the whole side. And so grains, you know, yeah, we farm the wheat, and then we mill it into flour, and then you bake bread that is all processing, but you haven't really altered that, you know, chemically. And then people are like, Well, yeah, but they enrich it and this and they bleach it, and this, okay, I get it. So I'm never gonna win the argument. 100%. But I think you know what I mean, a piece of bread is probably less processed than a Dorito. Okay, that's where I'm getting it right to read all comes from corn that has to get mixed with other ingredients. And it's a bunch of macros thrown together from different sources. All right, I can go on and on and on, I better shut up about this. Whole Foods. Why do we like them, they are rich in nutrients, they're rich in fiber, and they're rich in other compounds, other compounds that are not on the food label, folks. Okay, if you look up nutrition facts, for an apple, there's a whole bunch of stuff in an apple, that's not in the nutrition label. Don't forget that. I was talking to my wife the other day about it, because we were saying how like, it's so great to have a variety of these fruits and vegetables in your diet, even though many of them look the same nutritionally, right, from a macros perspective, and even a micros perspective. But then they have specific compounds that complement each other. And it's nice to have that variety, because you just never know what's gonna be great for you, you know, have the blueberries have the apples have the bananas have the kiwi, like have it all in there. And then of course, the fiber and the nutrients are really important as well. So we want to aim to have at least 80% of our diet consists of whole unprocessed foods, so that vegetables, whole grains, lean proteins, healthy fats, but I am going to throw in dairy and grains in there, folks, I'm sorry, you know, anti gluten folks and anti dairy folks, if you can tolerate those things, have them in your diet. That's my position. Now, if you notice issues with digestion, with gut health, with your skin with anything, and you can pinpoint it to a specific food, then great, that's information for you that you can act upon. I'll be honest, I probably have some mild intolerances to things that I eat. And I may not even be aware of it, because I haven't done the elimination diet to get that down in detail. But it also hasn't prevented me from enjoying my life. Now I also have an autoimmune condition. So Could somebody argue that if I cut out a whole bunch of foods that would go away? Maybe? Do I want to make that trade off? Probably not. So you got to decide for you. It makes sense. All right. Now, ultra processed foods, if you have too much of them, they are definitely going to disrupt your metabolism disrupt hormone balance, for a number of reasons. The main reason with Ultra processed foods is just because they're so calorie dense and devoid of nutrients that you're just you're consuming a bunch of macros, so a source of energy but not getting any other benefit out of it. And they tend to not fill you up. So you over consume. Even if you're tracking and you don't over consume, you're going to be then hungry, you're either going to over consume, or you're gonna be hungry, right? It's one or the other. The reason we over consume is because we're hungry. So the more whole foods and nutrient dense foods, the less hunger becomes an issue. And then alcohol is the other thing I want to talk about because that definitely, there is no positive to alcohol. Okay, I'm not saying that to shame you. I still drink alcohol, even having talked to experts over through the podcast about, you know how, again, there's no positive to alcohol, why do we do it? And there's a lot of social stigma. There's a, there's a lot, I have clients who have had these conversations with and they're like, I just can't do it. I have to have a drink with my friends and get that buzz and that's part of the enjoyment. I'm like, okay, that's your choice, do it. I'm not going to judge you at all. Can you still meet your goals with drinking alcohol? Yes. And all I want you to do is evaluate how it makes you feel and achieve those goals. And experiment with the alternative experiment with not having alcohol in your diet for a few weeks, just from a health perspective, even if it's just for fat loss. Just try it out. That's all I'm saying. Obviously, alcohol has a bunch of what some people call empty calories, which is kind of a misnomer because there's both carbs and alcohol. The alcohol gets metabolized. It does create energy. But guess what that energy just gets stored as fat, which can of course be offset if you're just in a negative energy state if you're in a calorie deficit. So it's not like you can't lose weight while drinking alcohol. It's This doesn't help that much. And then it also causes other hormonal disruptions that do affect fat burning and fat storage, your sleep your hormones, that is the part of it. That is, I think, more serious, I have an expert coming on the show, specifically to talk about thyroid and your health. And now I know my audience, a lot of your listeners want to know a lot about the supplementation, which will be a tiny piece of that, but mostly, it's gonna be about lifestyle, which is I think, what we have the most control over who wants to be on a bunch of meds, right? So we're gonna talk about thyroid, other hormones that affect the metabolism, or, of course, cortisol, the stress hormone, and your reproductive hormones. And all of these need to be in some sort of balance. And oftentimes, that balance is driven by the stress you place on your body stressors, like under eating, like overtraining, right. And then those hormones, not only do they affect your weight management and inability to lose fat, they cause fatigue, they cause mood swings. And who knows what else, there's many other symptoms, right? So, muscle mass, nutrition, sleep, stress, et cetera, all of these contribute to your hormone balance and the hormones themselves, right. Of course, if you have a hormone imbalance from because of a medical condition that needs to be looked at, I'm not a medical provider, I don't dispense medical advice. But if you've got everything else dialed in, and you know, for a fact that you're just your lifestyle is on point, there may be a medical situation under there that needs to be addressed as well. The point with this whole thing is we want to address the factors that cause our metabolism to go up or down in a comprehensive way. Because that is going to directly correlate with hormone function, and your ability to regulate your metabolism and live a fun, fit life where you get to eat a bunch of food, train feel great, and you know, be the fittest person on the block for decades to come. It's what we all want. Alright, so eat less move more, I hope you have gotten the message that it's over simplified, and it's also totally ineffective. It is terrible advice. Right? Building maintaining muscle mass fueling your body properly, staying active managing stress, prioritizing sleep, focusing on nutrition, quality, these actually make the big difference in optimizing your metabolism and your hormones. So the metabolism audit or the metabolism assessment that I've referenced throughout the episode, it's going to help you identify areas for improvement and create a personalized plan for you, which I think is where the rubber meets the road. It's taking this information on this podcast and applying it to you directly. And so I want you to go to Whitson weights.com, click the button at the top for the free metabolism audit. And you're going to answer the 20 questions. This is going to help you gauge your metabolic health. This will help you identify specific strategies for you. The cool thing is if you want to do it while listening to this podcast, you can then think about your answer. Still be honest with yourself about where you are, you know, be brutally honest, that's the only way to get help. But now you put it in the context of what I was sharing today. Okay, I think that covers it again, go check out the metabolism audit by going to wwe.com Clicking free metabolism audit at the top right or click the link in the show notes. And in our next episode 161 The bioenergetic solution to low energy and chronic health issues. With Jay Feldman, you will learn about bio Energetic Health. What is that exactly? You're gonna have to stay tuned to find out. Jay is going to discuss the impact of maximizing cellular energy on mental health, metabolism, longevity, and more. He will address modern diet, culture, stress and lifestyle in the context of your health, and offer practical solutions for adopting a sustainable energy boosting diet without relying on restriction or willpower. Make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast app right now to get notified of that and all future episodes when they come out. And as always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits end weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wit's or wait. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 159: Change How You "Train Hard" Forever with Natural Bodybuilder Steve Hall
What does it mean to "train hard"? Is it training to failure, progressive overload, intensity, something else? Find out the answers in today's episode. Today, Steve Hall, the founder of Revive Stronger, a seasoned natural bodybuilder and podcast host, shares his expertise on essential training principles. Philip invited him to the show to share his insights on what it means to "train hard" and how to apply scientific research to your training effectively. They discussed reps in reserve (RIR), proximity to failure, minimum effective volume for muscle growth, and more.
What does it mean to "train hard"? Is it training to failure, progressive overload, intensity, something else? Find out the answers in today's episode.
Today, Steve Hall, the founder of Revive Stronger, a seasoned natural bodybuilder and podcast host, shares his expertise on essential training principles. Philip (@witsandweights) invited him to the show to share his insights on what it means to "train hard" and how to apply scientific research to your training effectively. They discussed reps in reserve (RIR), proximity to failure, minimum effective volume for muscle growth, and more.
Steve's journey in the fitness world began after a near-death experience at the age of 20 where he suffered a severe head injury. During his recovery, he discovered bodybuilding, which helped him regain control of his life and ignited his passion for self-improvement.
With over a decade of gym experience and years of coaching experience, Steve has definitely made a name for himself in the world of natural bodybuilding, placing second at the WNBF World finals in 2021. Steve's approach to training and nutrition is grounded in the latest scientific research, which he combines with extensive practical knowledge to help his clients achieve outstanding results.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
3:19 The link between bodybuilding and personal values
8:16 "Training hard" for hypertrophy
13:56 RIR and proximity to failure vs. other hypertrophy principles
19:20 Assessing repetition ranges
28:42 Applying research findings to individual training
39:43 Assessing and optimizing individual response to training
44:52 Full Range of Motion (ROM) vs. partial reps
52:22 Developing personal heuristics for effective training
59:39 The question Steve wished Philip had asked
1:01:35 Where to find Steve
1:02:20 Outro
Episode resources:
Steve’s coaching and podcast website: revivestronger.com
IG: @revivestronger
Embarking on a journey through the realm of bodybuilding, the latest podcast episode with Steve Hall, the mastermind behind Revive Stronger, offers a treasure trove of insights for anyone looking to elevate their physical training. As a seasoned natural bodybuilder, Steve provides a unique perspective on optimizing workouts for muscle growth and overall physical excellence.
Throughout the episode, Steve dissects the fundamental principles that govern effective training. Emphasizing the importance of specificity, overload, and progressive overload, he shares his wisdom on creating fitness programs that are productive, rather than perfect. His insights underscore the significance of progression in training, offering listeners a pathway to achieving their fitness aspirations.
In a candid reflection, Steve recounts his personal journey in bodybuilding, which began in the aftermath of a severe head injury. This transformative experience instilled in him values of control and self-improvement, underscoring bodybuilding's potential to serve as a conduit for broader life progression. He also delves into the technical aspects of training, including reps in reserve (RIR), proximity to failure, and minimum effective volume (MEV), guiding listeners on how to balance scientific research with individual physiological responses to maximize gains while reducing injury risk.
Steve's discussion further explores the psychological aspects of pushing oneself to the brink of failure, an often underappreciated facet of muscle growth. By sharing actionable strategies, he enables listeners to break through psychological barriers and embrace a mindset conducive to productive workouts. This understanding is crucial, particularly for those new to resistance training who may underestimate their capabilities, leaving untapped potential on the gym floor.
As the episode progresses, Steve illuminates the delicate balance between training intensity and recovery. He highlights the concept of max recoverable stimulus versus fatigue, illustrating the necessity of customizing training regimens to one's unique body responses. Through his expert lens, we gain an insider's look at the complex process of optimizing muscle recovery and growth.
In an enlightening segment, Steve shares his experience with calf training techniques and the role of biofeedback in achieving growth. He emphasizes the importance of understanding individual nuances, such as equipment preferences and full range of motion, in crafting effective training strategies. Listeners are encouraged to consider additional metrics beyond lifts, such as hunger and irritability, to refine their fitness and nutrition plans further.
Finally, the episode underscores the continuous learning journey in fitness. It advocates for a productive program that evolves with one's personal experiences and body responses. This philosophy resonates deeply with listeners, empowering them to embrace dedication and knowledge as they ascend to new heights in their quest for physical excellence.
In summary, the podcast episode with Steve Hall offers a comprehensive guide to mastering physical excellence. By blending scientific insights with practical strategies, it serves as a catalyst for listeners to transform their physique and mindset. It is a testament to the power of bodybuilding as a platform for self-mastery and personal growth.
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Transcript
Steve Hall 00:00
if people ever feel like lost and confused with these things, definitely pull it back to the principles especially when they get lost into program design. If they just pull it back to Okay, so specificity, overload, progressive overload, and what I need to achieve in my program, and then don't overthink it, don't try make the perfect most optimal program possible because we can't possibly know what that is. Get something together. Productive Do you feel like is hard and you're progressing overtime?
Philip Pape 00:29
Welcome to the wit's end waits podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights Podcast. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Steve Hall founder of revived stronger hosts of the podcast of the same name and competitive natural bodybuilder. Now I invited Steve on the show I'm a big fan of his and a follower of his show, and I wanted him to share his insights on what it really means to train hard, and how to effectively apply scientific research to your own training. In that context, we'll get into the nuances of training principles like reps and reserve, IRI, our proximity to failure and minimum effective volume MeV and how these concepts relate to muscle growth. We'll discuss how to bridge the gap between research and practice based on your individual response to optimize your gains while minimizing injury risk. Now, Steve's journey in the fitness world began after a near death experience at the age of 20, where he suffered a severe head injury. And during his recovery, he discovered bodybuilding, he revived stronger where the name comes from, which helped him regain control of his life and ignited his passion for self improvement. With over a decade of experience in the gym, and years of coaching under his belt, Steve has definitely made a name for himself in the world of Natural Bodybuilding. He plays second at the WNBA of worlds. In 2021, Steve's approach to training and nutrition is grounded in the latest scientific research, which he combines with extensive practical knowledge to help his clients achieve outstanding results. And in my opinion, his show the revived stronger podcast is one of the best evidence based podcasts out there. So go follow it when you're done listening to this show, Steve. Oh, man, thank you so much for coming on.
Steve Hall 02:31
The thank you so much. As we were saying all fair, it's always nice to be on the other end. It's always an honor to be brought on. And yeah, have my thoughts brought to the floor a little bit more. Because I get to speak to some of the brightest minds in the industry. I'm very thankful of that. But yeah, there's a lot of thoughts going on. And as I'm sure as a podcast host, you know this when you're listening to the other person talk, so many thoughts go through your head, and you don't always get to say them. So it's quite nice to be here on the other end. And thank you for the very kind intro.
Philip Pape 02:56
Absolutely, yeah. And it is a challenge of trying to really listen and absorb the message while we're just having that conversation and bring out your expertise. And it's true. And I went back and looked at your feed because I listened to every episode of yours. You're almost always interviewing these big names. And sometimes I'm like, Man, I just want to hear from you, Steve, you know, and so wanted to bring you on the show, because people probably have the same thought. And so before we get into the topic itself, I'm not going to say hey, what's your story, per se, I don't want to go that generic. I want to link this to the idea of improvement of how bodybuilding itself and building muscle while it could seem to be this vain thing that certain people are just obsessed with, right. And there's definitely certain behaviors that go behind that with like, food and orthorexia, and all these other topics. You're very passionate about it. So am I we have podcasts that where we talk about this stuff all the time. And they seem to be linked to values like, you know, having control of improving yourself. Tell us about the link between those. Yeah, for
Steve Hall 03:53
sure. Yeah, I think on the surface level, bodybuilding probably looks like so superficial. And so just like egotistical and vain and just like weird, right, especially competitive bodybuilding, where you see the guys and just the tiny little thongs on stage and they're all tanned up and greased up. You're like, what are these guys doing? They're flexing. And it was actually hilarious. This is a slight side note, but I saw a real it was Arnold, like Arnold Schwarzenegger. And he was like posing in front of this woman. I think it's in a film or something that was like he was part of, but it was like a meme. It was like, when you're a bodybuilder and all you've got about you as the gym and you go on a first date for the first time. And she's just like, she just starts laughing at him. He's like, this is a front double bicep. This is our front load spread, like trying to impress her. She's just what the hell like laughing her head off. So I think from the outside, that's the way people view it. But to actually like the process behind it. It's kind of like that's the peak of the iceberg. But like underneath, it's like, well, that's the chunk of the iceberg and that's where all these other values and things can be found. And for me like bodybuilding has given me a route to better health, for sure. or it's give it gives me direction every single day in my life. And it's also given me essentially a business. And it gives me something to look forward to every day. So yeah, there's so much you could dive into with that question. But the quote I love, I don't know exactly where it's from, but it's like progress is happiness. And it's a quote I love and that's the way I feel about bodybuilding every day, I feel like I'm progressing towards something like I get out of bed. And I always feel like I have a purpose, it doesn't matter what's going on in my life, what stressors are going on, if things have been bad with the business or at dinner, or had an argument with my girlfriend, or whatever it might be, I know that day, I've got a workout to do. I've got some nutritional goals to achieve. And if I do that, I know I've put in another little penny into my like muscle growth deposit. And it feels so great to be able to have that. And it also gives you kind of direction with various questions that come out at you. So if you just sort of a lot of decision making can be hard if you have no direction in your life that I'm like, This is gonna make me a better bodybuilder. Like I can look at so many things that I make 10 have choices in my life. Like, shall I watch this extra episode of whatever show I'm watching? Or should I go to bed? What's gonna make me a better bodybuilder, let's get to bed, like these various things. So yeah, for me, it gives me such a sense of purpose and direction that I owe so much to the bodybuilding as a whole, it's not even miss the competitive side is something else. But the whole philosophy behind progressing yourself bettering yourself, having that purpose, the routines and habits that have to take place, and how you can put those into other aspects of life, like growing a business or into relationships. And even with us, you mentioned, like you've been in the evidence based space for like five or so years now. Like, understanding that there's the science and principles behind this. And you can be skeptical about other things that you hear in life where you just don't accept someone's word at face value in this, if something sounds too good to be true, or what have you. You can be like, I'm gonna look into that myself. So it's given me some skill sets for day to day too. So yeah, like I said, I want to bodybuilding.
Philip Pape 07:05
And there's so much there that I resonate so hard with and I'm sure a lot of people do, but the idea that the physical pursuits required by bodybuilding, even, even if you're not competitive, even if you're just trying to, you know, be a lifestyle enthusiast in this translate to everything else, right. And I often say the physical has to almost has to come before everything else, because it enables those things. But your idea of of incorporating passion and excitement and purpose and driving these all together, and then they translate to business and everything else is a great message. I got a text from a friend this morning, he was quoting, I think, The Four Hour Workweek, Tim Ferriss, and he said, excitement is the more practical synonym for happiness. And it is precisely what you should chase it is the cure all and I get that from you have like, the passion and the excitement, you know, comes before the other things and then hey, you get to make a business out of this too, because you just love it so much. People want to hear and get your help. And it's a win win for everybody. There's no cognitive dissonance. So it's a great message, Steve. So then, like, let's segue into the topic as smoothly as you can, which is training hard. And honestly, a lot of this is, you know, how do we train hard? How do we progress in life and in bodybuilding? And so let's talk about the bodybuilding side and hypertrophy. Even when I go on shows, people say, Hey, you talk about lifting heavy what does that mean? Are you talking about training hard? What does that mean? Like just answered that that like super easy question, Steve. Right, super easy question to answer. And then we'll dive into details. Yeah,
Steve Hall 08:33
it's a good one. Because I think you have to specify training hard for the goal of muscle growth, because there's a lot of things I could do in the gym, that would be freaking hard, but they didn't grow me any muscle like squatting on a BOSU ball, or like a dyno sprint doing treadmill sprints. I've done those before. And that was hell. Class. You know, there's a lot of things you can go into the gym, and just like, I think most people think training hard is just like exhausting yourself. I know, I used to own a t shirt that said go hard or go home. So it was just, that's the kind of characteristic of, of bodybuilding, especially in the UK, with Dorian Yates and everything. It's like hard training, you know, but I think hard when I translate it to like a scientific term could look be looked at as overload maybe, like it has to be overloading for the body. So it has to be hard enough to cause a stress response for the body to have to respond to so as to be overloading and how do we make something overloading in regards to specifically for muscle growth? I look at there has to be overloading me and overload threshold for proximity to failure. In fact, some people may be able to grow very, very far from failure. I think there's studies on like, newbie cycling and they grow. Most of us who have been training for a few years are not growing from cycling. We won't maintain our muscle from cycling, we probably need to be quite close to muscle or sorry to failure as we're going to speak about a little bit more. So when I consider that for someone who's been training consistently for many years Like practically three or four reps from failure is about as far as you probably want to be going much further from that, you probably don't know where you are in terms of proximity, like, it's just too easy to really know that you're training hard enough reps need to have slowed down involuntary to you trying your hardest. And then you know, the body's actually trying like that's as simple as it gets, like, oh, a set actually got hard, it felt challenging when I was going through it. And then the other aspect of hard and a threshold for growth is you need to do enough of it, doing just one set of squats a week is I'm it wouldn't grow my quads or glutes, it would probably maintain them, I don't know, it might not to be honest, it's probably under my maintenance volume, probably maintain quite a lot of people's. And like I said it would someone new to the gym, I mean, that would grow them for sure. But after a while, it would no longer meet that hard slash overload threshold for growth. So we need to do enough of it to be able to grow. And that's that minimum effective volume you spoke of like that MeV, you need to do enough of that. And when I think of how low is that, as I've already kind of demonstrated, the newer you are to the gym, the less well adapted you are, the less of a stress, the less hard and hard is a lower threshold for you. But the longer you've been training and practically for anyone who's been training for a few years, like it needs to be a significant amount every week that you're doing there, the actual lower amounts, there probably depends on the muscle group, it will depend on the person, it would depend on the exercise selection or depend on how close you go to failure, there's so many things it depends on. Because there's a lot that goes into productive program design, I would view it as four to six direct sets for a muscle group is probably going to start growing you. So if you're at four to six, and you're anywhere from three, four RSR closer to failure, I think you're doing a good job to probably be growing. But I would test that assumption, see if there's progression. And I guess that segues into a slightly different discussion. But that's how I view heart is I would translate it into overload. And then I would think of overloading specifically for muscle growth, meeting thresholds for relative intensity. So it needs to be close enough to failure. And all add one actually, it needs to be sufficient volume, which I look at as sets of proximity to failure. And then actually the other layer there would be it has to be heavy enough. The reason I didn't introduce it is because there's such a wide range of kind of rep ranges, or loads that would grow you, I think you're all the way up to like 30% of your one rep max has been shown to grow at least over the studied time period. And so like five to 30 repetitions is probably a great range to be in with being that proximal to failure, you could go heavier and still meet growth thresholds is just inefficient. That's why I tend to have five is my kind of cap there. And above 30, we just don't have good data to suggest that you're growing particularly well at that point. And practically, even going above 20 reps isn't particularly fun. I think now, then it's a great thing to do, potentially, but it's not much fun. Yeah,
Philip Pape 13:00
yeah, I know, there's a lot of personal and practical aspects to these. And I want to get into that because you definitely let it laid out some boundaries. Like we can't, you know, we say it depends a lot, but it's not like it depends on anything. It depends on you certain principles and certain boundaries. So I like some of the metrics you gave us where you said, okay, there has to be a stress response. So we can adapt and grow. What does that mean? Okay, we have to push hard enough, okay, there's a certain number of reps from quote, unquote, failure, which again, is a could be a squishy thing for someone who's new, we can talk about that. And then Enough, enough of it with volume, because you can't just go you know, once a month or once a week and do two sets, and then heavy enough, and that's the other argument, I'm glad you gave a very wide rep range, you know, because there's definitely some dogmatic thinking, and especially old school, like strength versus hypertrophy rep range. And, and then you've got the effective reps model on the other side, which is like any rep range just has to eat 100 reps at the end. But let's drill into one of those, I want to talk about the psychological aspect of pushing that boundary when you're kind of a newer or even intermediate lifter, who may maybe it hasn't worked with the coach, and so they haven't really been pushed. What does it mean to feel like you are close to failure? Or even to have that heuristic of like, this is my failure point. What's a good way to get there?
Steve Hall 14:17
Yeah, it's a really good question. Because I effectively, I wouldn't, like it's hard to if you've never trained to failure, know what the reps before that unnecessarily feeling. Like, good example. I always use this put someone who hasn't really trained before and a leg extension. And they'll do like 10 reps. They'll start burning and they're like, man, that's that's I can't do any more. And then you'd be like, no, no, you're good. Nothing slow down. You're still producing really good concentric force. And then they maybe do another 10 And that's actually been examined within research when you get people to just like pick a load for how many reps they can do but then you push them and you give encouragement Hey, they get like a double the number of reps that they necessarily thought they were But if you're looking at people and even newbies who haven't used RL before, if you get them to rate it bike as they go, so you don't just get them to pick a load and then do 10 And dicho. Yeah, I thought that was my max, but You encouraged me to more, if you get them on there, you give them the load, and then they're like, or hammy, Jeff left, they realize they're better at writing IGI have more in me than I thought. And they can keep going. And they're actually much better at gauging it. The latest meta analysis, I think, essentially looked at saying that most people around a rep away from where they thought and I kind of they undershoot by a rep, so they probably had one more in them than they thought. So people are pretty good at gauging it. And when you go and you train it, but it's actually a quite nuanced discussion, because I think some people think it's like, hey, so three or four reps or reserve, you get a slow rep, the other ones before that, they all look about the same. So maybe it's a two second concentric, and it's dropped to one second. And then it's like, okay, then drops, like, again, 25% less than that, that's and that less than that, and then you hit failure. But for some lifts, and you're very know this to Philip, like, you can sometimes just hit a wall, like as soon as I hear. So Rob, that's one area, I got one more good rep in me. And then I'm done. I think that comes down to just different leverages on various exercises and things like this. So if we're talking about like a full range of motion lat pulldown, the lats themselves are strongest in the lengthen position at the top. But the exercise itself is hardest in the short position where your weakest. So suddenly, like you can't grind out reps maybe the same way, you could grind out some more partial reps up at the top. So it's a little bit different there. Versus pressing where if you're doing a dumbbell press, yeah, I mean, that's going to be a little bit more matched in terms of what's strongest, and where it's hardest in terms of that length and position, your strongest sort of hardest in that bottom position. And then some machines are just like a bit wacky Oh, no, I have this pendulum squat I'm using and even different pendulum squats can differ. I've got a Watson like old school pendulum squat I'm using. And I know as soon as I hit like a slow rep on there, I'm like, I am quickly toast, I watch a video of it. And I'm like, Ah, it looks like I had more in the tank. But I just know from having gone to failure that I don't. And I think that's the really cure all is maybe you start your training where you're like, Yeah, I'm getting some soil reps is feeling hard, it's feeling challenged, I have to really concentrate to get those repetitions. And they've slowed down, I've kind of finished that set. And I'm like, Yeah, my muscle felt challenged. But then you look to progress it over time. Progressive overload is a super important aspect of muscle growth, you look to add a rep, or add a small amount of load. And over the weeks maintaining good technique, you're eventually going to hit a point where like, I tried for a rep, I couldn't get it. And then you know where that is, you know how the reps have for it felt and you also have logbook data. So say you hit a benchpress 100 for 10 reps, the 11th rep you failed, you had a spotter, like you're you're still alive, you're fine. You know, if you start a new mesocycle, and you want to be three reps, reserve 100. For seven, you're pretty confident, all things being equal, you had a good night's sleep you ate well, you're not dieting, you can do that. And that'll be a good gauge of where your three Reo is hopefully over time, three REO now becomes like 102.5 for seven, and you'd like get stronger over time. That's that's obviously the goal is kind of marker for muscle growth, your strength increases. But essentially, I think that's probably the best way to go about it. I think some people just say, hey, like Pete newbies aren't good at training, in proximity to failure. So just train them all to failure all the time. Because they're not good at it. And I'm just like, it's a risky approach. First of all, because their technique often isn't great, especially as they approach failure, it's becomes very risky. Also, as we spoke about before, the people who can grow the easiest, are the newer people, and they can leave more in the tank, so you don't have to push them to that point. So I would say not even to take a bike, a barbell back squat, or even a bench press, maybe if you've spotted you can take it to failure. But do it on safer lifts generally, like do it on your maybe a smith machine squat is relatively safer, a hack squat would even be even better leg extension fine, like take it to the house, you know, nothing bad is going to happen if you do that. But yeah, for like your barbell free weight lifts, you probably don't want to do that so often. But I think you can learn enough from these other lifts, that you kind of get that experience. So hopefully that kind of answered the question.
Philip Pape 19:19
Definitely answered the question with as much you know, very comprehensively as I expected. So there's there's little pieces in here, I want to poke out pick out for what I know the listeners thinking. First kind of going backward. I know when I first started training, heavy or hard, you know, to actually using progressive overload and tracking sets across was also very helpful tool just because I didn't know my failure point, right? Where sets across, you know, progress each session, it starts to get into that failure regime. And then then you're like, Oh, now I know what failure is. So that's interesting, but a few things you mentioned. One is the slowing down. There's a lot of we want to get objective with some of these right? So when I think of slowing down, and I'm sure you've had this experience where You feel something's slowing down, you watch it back and it didn't slow down at all on video, right? And there's like this dis dilation effect almost. And in other cases, it's obvious like you said, with the lat pulldown, you just start to pull in, it literally just won't go. It slowed down. So what are your thoughts on that? Doesn't matter that much? If you're just progressing, or like, should people use video, we're not going to have velocity sensors or anything like that. But what do you think? Yeah,
Steve Hall 20:24
I was glad you brought velocity up, because I know that that's something that's being looked into our volume velocity trackers, but it just spoke to Jake, from data driven, driven strength, who they're part of Mike Zardoz, his lab, and they've been looking at the lacI trackers and trying to use them in practice as maybe a way of like, hey, it's a small investment for someone who maybe like ourselves, who uses Rei, we want to be more objective about it. It's not a crazy investment to do. I think it's practically might be hard in the gym. I've never used one. But he was just like, actually, it doesn't seem to be panning out how we thought it might, it doesn't seem to be that objective. So it is hard. And I think it therefore relies more on that personal experience with failure on various lifts and various muscles where it might be slightly different. I'm sure you've had it, Philip, Where I know, I've had clients where they hit a grinder and I'm like, Okay, you're done. And then they get like three more. And I'm like, okay, so they knew they had more in the tank. So actually, I can't look at the video and tell them that RSR. And this is something I think so many people get messed up is because they think there's just this one, like, Hey, you hit three is that slow to one, zero, it should look like this every person under every circumstance, but it is simply it just doesn't look that way. And so I always say to clients, I I never can tell objectively what your area is, like, just say if I think you had more or less. And then sometimes they come back to me like Steve, you know, you're right. Or they might come back with a suit. There's no way and I'm like, Okay, we're test that maybe, and see how it goes. But yeah, then on the same kind of line of thought you have the grinders, but then you have that person who just whatever about them, if they're fast, which dominant. And so they just fatigue very quickly, they just suddenly hit a wall and you're like, Oh, I didn't know expect that to happen. And I actually really had this was very cool. I got to train at das gym in Vienna, which if you haven't heard of it, or you haven't seen it, Google it, anyone listening, it's one of the coolest gyms in the world. And we managed to go there is a team. So myself, Pascal, and Mike Chalice, they're all coaches on the team and we train together. And it's just funny, because we're all so different. And how will you respond to things? Like I think I'm fairly average in terms of my grindability. And what our ER looks like Mike, on the other hand, he can just keep going, you're like, he's been like grinding for like five reps, hear what's going on. And then I would say Pascal slightly towards the other end where he he fails a little bit quicker than I do. And it's like, we're all very similar age, very similar number of years of training, muscular development, isn't that different between us yet, our AR can look quite different. So I think it really has to come down to personal experience with this. And the better you use it just like any tool, the sharper it comes like, the better you are at using it. And I think you mentioned something really important here is like, how important is it? If you're progressing over time, like I'll put up a squat video. And I'll say, Hey, I thought this was like zero RL and some will, Mike, I have a bunch of comments. Now you had more than a tank Steve, like Come on, push harder. And like, as you don't mind, if I did or didn't, I knew I was very close. And I knew that was a PR based off previous performance. And so if I keep PR and I keep seeing new numbers, new strength numbers, I'm fairly confident whatever I'm doing is mean those thresholds, that it's hard enough, and it's progressive enough. And I know I don't have to train, even to zero or one or, like, I don't have to train that hard, I can probably make up for a few of the volume. Now I don't want to. And I'm very confident in my area assessments. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because maybe I met hard and sufficiently overloading through a different variable I pulled on that volume lever a bit more. Whatever has happening. If I'm progressively overloading I know something good is happening. Yeah, yeah. And
Philip Pape 24:07
the converse of that is fatigue, right? Where if you were going to zero are constantly, it could have a negative long term impact on your ability to come back and the gym and hit that again, which is important, especially as we get older and recovery and joint issues start to become an issue or whatnot. Maybe we can get into that. One other thing comes to mind, I think you alluded to it was kind of in the lower rep regime, maybe testing one RMS or, I don't know using ascending sets or something like that to find your RPE like Do you have a favored one or two?
Steve Hall 24:47
Yeah, so normally I get it, get there through an accumulation. So I normally am like, hey, let's start out hard week one where you think you're anywhere from one to three reoriented to try and be a bit closer to three on those big compound heavy lifts, try and be closer to one on like an isolation base lift where it should have at cost, like you said, it's just much lower, whereas going to 01 RA on like a leg press week one or x, well, it's quite fatiguing, it might not be worth the trade off. And so you can get a better stimulus to fatigue trade off saying a bit further from failure, then next week, I want you to match or beat it and keep going match your beating, maintaining good technique, like you had in week one until you can't and then you have that objective number. And if you found that like your week, one numbers to your however long you're able to go for, say you were able to go for eight weeks, and you managed to add a lot of reps and load, you went to easy week one, but maybe you didn't Maybe it worked out like like, oh, I managed to add sort of 10% to my lift and match reps the whole way through it was five, six weeks. Sounds like you're a pretty spot on. So you quickly learn via that kind of just accumulation of going there. Other options would be and I think you kind of alluded to this, maybe take the last set to failure, it kind of then indicate where everything else was. And it's a quicker feedback tool than necessarily going weeks and weeks and weeks without going there. I with my clients will get formed videos week one. So I'm very making sure like, are they training hard enough in that week, because if they've leaving loads of reps in the tank, there's a real issue that can happen there is that they are not going to be generating that much stimulus, they might not meet that threshold. And they will feel very recovered because they're not training that hard. And suddenly, they want to add loads of volume. But if you add loads of quantity of work, the quality inherently goes down. And that can be a real issue, especially when you're already training maybe too far from failure. Now, it's hard to train harder, because you've got so much other things to be doing. So I'm very careful about making sure hey, we've definitely trade hard enough that first week because otherwise you can get into this kind of volume trap, I would call it which I've definitely been in by the way, which is why I kind of feel it. And I've worked with a lot of clients who have been there to where they're doing way more volume than necessarily need to because the quality wasn't there in week one.
Philip Pape 27:06
Yeah, I imagine you're asking them to self report on our IR RP or something that kind of comparing, like, maybe not right? You said you're a nine, maybe it's a seven, maybe it's a six. And the accumulation approach is is really smart. Because even when we get more experience, you're gonna cycle through and you're gonna introduce new movements at a certain point and you kind of get that minor reset of, okay, where should I be, you know, on these movements, I last did it you know, three months ago. So it's kind of a good approach. It's also in line with the idea that we shouldn't be going to the gym and just randomly doing whatever every day we need to progress on something so that we get past, you know, the neuromuscular aspect, as well as the self puristic kind of learning aspect. Other important principles.
27:50
Hi, my name is Alan. And I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Whitson weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and wellbeing. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly, and with dedication to provide coaching support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research. And Phillip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition, Phillip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, PhilPapers, the real deal, he knows how to assess and direct nutrition. And he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Phil.
Philip Pape 28:42
So let's get into a little bit of some of the underlying principles. Besides you mentioned, proximity failure mentioned progressive overload. And you mentioned minimum effective volume. Let's talk about the training variables. So we've got volume intensity frequency, you mentioned, you know, five to 30 reps could work. Now we're talking muscle growth hypertrophy, maybe not so much Max force production and powerlifting type training. But there are some camps like intensity versus frequency camps. What are your thoughts on all of that? Because I especially let's start with intensity. Let's start with load. Like, is there a time when someone should focus on the lower rep range? And why?
Steve Hall 29:24
Yeah, it's a good question. I can't say that there's any data suggesting that you need to focus on like a given rep range, and somehow that's going to lead to better growth in future, I wouldn't be against rep range being somewhat preference driven. Because of the fact that we don't have any, like, no real reason to say if you push that set close enough to failure, you're gonna grow just as well as different rep range. Again, we don't have long term data of using those higher rep ranges. But I think bodybuilders like have been doing this for so long, where they've been using such a wide swath of rep ranges, where it's kind of Like the anecdotal evidence, which is super weak, like it's not great evidence to draw upon, but it's kind of helped by the fact it's been done for so long. And it's actually like you mentioned with the camps, you have like your mike mentor, you have your Dorian Yates but then you have like your Arnold Schwarzenegger, your Jay Cutler, these guys who your Phil Heath, like, they had very different methods of how they trained. But I bet one not I bet, you know, all of them, did, they train hard. And if they met their overload thresholds, whether or not they pulled more on one lever versus another, it does seem to be that way a little bit, where there are things that you can do to generate a stimulus within the gym. Inherently, when you generate a stimulus in the gym, fatigue comes along with it, it has to, but if you so I don't know if there's always proportional fatigue. So for example, like a hack squat, one set of that produces you 10, stimulus, 10 fatigue, by leg extension, maybe produces, you know, five, so you have to do more volume on that leg extension to get the same from the hack squat. But it's like, you can both get to the same destination, like neither your SFR overall was the same. I don't know if that's the same for say, Hey, you train close to failure, you do less volume, to kind of get to the same destination as someone else who trades further from failure, and does more volume to get to the same destination, I can see an argument for that, especially if you keep them within these kind of, like you said, those parameters that it's like, Hey, pick your poison, any road to Rome, you're gonna eventually get there. Now, my kind of scientific and analytical mindset, likes to think and coaching mindset likes to think there's an optimal route somewhat, and it might be individual dependent, to some extent. And I do think it can morph and change over time, because I think fatigue dynamics do to, like out of a D load, when you're essentially the freshest you can be your stimulus to fatigue ratio, and how to get the best of that might be different to four weeks into the program. When you've adapted and you've accumulated fatigue, I can't say for sure that these are kind of some theories that I have in mind. So I generally, I don't know if this answers your question, but for my clients, what I like to do programming wise, is assuming they're coming in fresh that first week, we're at least meeting those minimum thresholds for growth, as I suggested, so I generally start people on those kind of isolation base lifts, higher rep ranges, lower fatigue cost lifts, two to one, Ari are not take them nicely close to failure, you're bigger compound lifts, maybe there are three to two, like a leg press more to three, like a lat pulldown, and then overall, maybe you got closer to two. And you could also individualize that on like, how, what's the volume tolerance of that muscle, if they're very volume tolerant muscle, and you don't want to have to do so much volume together, stimulus, pull boron intensity. So that's something I do for like ABS carves, I'm just like, hey, train those very close to failure, because not many people want to do a ton of sets of those, and they're very, very volume tolerant, raise your quads, most people's quads can't handle that much volume, so and they get fatigued very easily. So we pull back on the, on the intensity lever and put more onto the volume, because it's not that much anyway. So regardless, I meet that kind of minimum threshold week one, and then I'm just monitoring their performance, their feedback, and trying to get to to a point where I call it like maximum adaptive stimulus, Mike is retail obviously use the terms mineral effects volume, maximum adaptive volume, and maximum recoverable volume. I like to rephrase it into stimulus, because I think that encompasses more of training, because there's a lot of things that contribute to stimulus like intensity, volume, exercise, selection, rest times, maybe frequency, there's a lot of things that go into it. So I like to get someone to this point where I'm like, Hey, you're running an amount of volume, and amount of intensity that's really challenging you, you feel like you end every session where you're not completely destroyed. But you're like, Damn, that was a really good workout. And you kind of try and match and beat performance in that position progressively overload for as long as you can, until fatigue catches up to you. So for a lot of my intermediate to advanced trainees, that's anywhere from five weeks, up to like 10 weeks, depending on the person, their lifestyle, if they sleep really well, they eat super well, they're in a surplus, maybe less advanced, maybe they're closer to 10 weeks. Whereas for that more advanced person in a diet, they're sleeping poorly, they have lots of stress, that fatigue is catching up to them sooner, then back off and go again. So I'm just careful not to push too hard in any one direction and try and kind of find this theoretical sweet spot between volume and intensity. Because when we look at the literature, it's like, it's quite funny because we had the meta regression from Zack Robinson that came out where for the listeners like a meta regression, looked at lots of the studies, and then like, compared where on average is the best outcomes, and he was looking at our AR and muscle growth. And it seemed like there was this exponential exponential relationship between training closer to failure, the more muscle growth you got. So three to one, zero and to failure. There's exponential muscle growth. So People like well answered our question like surely best outcomes, trends failure all the time. But the studies that were looked at were frequencies of mostly two times a week. And volumes very low, not typical to what we would do. And then we have the other body of research, where the recommendations from the meta analyses that they've been doing, which is very similar to meta regression, I can't speak to the nuance differences between the two, I just know those terms. But again, a whole host of studies, and they find up between like 10 to 20, I think it's like 12 to 20 to the latest systematic review found. So that's quite high volume versus the what was found within the meta regression. It's like, Ah, how do we piece those together? And we're still trying to like unfoldings, and work through that puzzle. And I think, Martin Cephalo, who I know you're, you're aware of who I've interviewed a few times on a podcast, he's doing his PhD, literally in this subject of like, proximity to failure and muscle growth outcomes. ABC had like the the best study that's ever been done on this subject, where I think a lot of people thought the studies that had come out, but it looked at proximities to failure, were like, they were in the gym and doing Rei, just like we would, but most of them weren't, they'll just either not failure or failure. Or they're using velocity. And we're trying to estimate based off that, whereas his was the first study to actually have subjects who were very good at calling our ers in a gym, tutorial, one REO versus failure. And so he had subjects go through the same protocol, one leg doing one or the other leg doing the other protocol, what was the difference, and like there was there was basically no difference. In the end, there was some nuance differences, which were cool. But yet, it's still that that's I think study is just a great framework for other people coming up through the field to look and be like, Oh, maybe we can replicate that. But through different means, and have a different protocol to try and kind of work this out a little bit. But I am to not get too stuck in the weeds. And I think a lot of people like science man, it's so confusing. Like one time, it's saying this, the other thing saying this, like screw science, and I'm just like, I like to boil it down to, to maximize muscle growth, you basically want to train as hard as you can, for as long as you can, as often as you can do, there's a lot of ways to get to that kind of situation. And I can't tell you what the optimal route is. But so long as you know, you're working your muscles hard in the gym, often, you're making sure to most of the time recover, when you aren't recovering you back off, and then you go in again, and you're progressing over time, you're probably in a damn good job. And I think that's why there's so many jacked bodybuilders in the world who weren't aware of the scientific terms and things like this and their different approaches because I didn't fit their personality or their their own N equals one study, and they just found man, this worked for me, why would I do something different? The struggle is you can't copy a mike mentor and expect to respond the same way. You can't say, oh, look, Dorian did this. So everyone should be doing this. Because that's the beauty of science, you actually get a swath of people, you get them on isolated conditions. And then you actually get to report like averages and get a better idea of what the general population should be doing. And science will never give us the perfect prescription. I think a lot of people hope it will. But it gives you those guidelines, which we've spoken about a few times. So I don't know if I asked that question again. I kind of forgot what it was.
Philip Pape 38:18
This is why I brought you on man, I love the way you answered. And if anybody who doesn't like and listen to the show, they can unfollow and you know, we self self select our audience, but man, the I'm a perfectionist, right? Like in certain ways in that I used to, especially when I got into this world, I'd want to know the exact answer. And then I would do that right. And of course, you would glom on to certain experts, or people who are in that camp, and then you, you know, to the exclusion of everything else. And like you suggested, there's such a wide window. And if we just try to pick out certain studies, and then the latest and greatest that gets pushed on, you know, Instagram or whatever, we're just going to be bouncing around, I think, and it's maybe a better approach to just pick the things that, like you said, are preference driven. And to some extent, I mean, I've gone through cycles of programming with my coach, where I might be doing like an 852 rep cycle. And I'm like, I don't like the eight, let's do the 531. And it's like, you get the same result. It's just a little bit different rep scheme that I enjoy more, right. And that's part of consistency. And then like you said, everybody has different levels of fatigue, that can build up. So it's not, it's not in a vacuum, like the study that that showed, you should always train to failure, right? You're not just doing it once you're doing it over and over and over again. And then I'll tell you that certain parts of my body and others know like their low back or whatever, where the fatigue just, you get to the point where you almost dread doing a certain movement because of it. That's maybe your body telling you something. Either you need to eat more sleep or change it up whatever. One thing I did want to ask you about is when you program for clients, and you get past those first, the first week or two, do you program their loads, or do you continue to program our IR so
Steve Hall 39:53
what the way I prescribe it is that week one, that's the only week I really get them to focus on reps reserve after that, like it's in a good place, you don't need to worry about it anymore, match and be. Now, more my more advanced clients, I do want them to have a little bit of semblance of understanding of it, because if they're already like zero on, say something very fatiguing, and it's like or week two, then I'm like a match for like more so much performance because you're going to run out of runway or progression over time otherwise. But generally, I don't like people to worry about it too much. Have an idea that you're in a zone that you want to be in. Obviously, if you're hitting failure week to like, you probably shot your load alert too soon, or you've had a bad night's sleep or, you know, you've had an argument with someone and your fatigue is just shot through the roof, and then we can regulate that as we move forward. But yeah, past that point, I actually don't like too much focus on the reps or reserve, just knowing that they're within that range is is good enough for me. I don't need to know that they've hit a bull's eye. I just need to know they're on the dartboard. That's kind of the way I think about that.
Philip Pape 40:56
Yeah, I like that approach too. Because I think a perpetual focus on just RPE like maybe gives too much subjectivity there versus Hey, you've got a baseline, why don't we build off that baseline and know for a fact that you're exceeding it going forward? You also mentioned maximum recoverable stimulus as opposed to fatigue I like that concept to recently spoke to was it might have been Jordan Lipsyte or somebody who was talking about, like, the vast majority of people fatigue isn't so much the issue is they're not training hard enough. And I think it goes back to this discussion. Like, if you get to the point where fatigue is an issue, maybe that's telling you, maybe you've been training hard enough, and now we got to learn how to manage it. But there are a lot of I see it all the time, you know, especially beginners who are like, there's zero fatigue, that could be an indication you're not training harder, you know what I mean? That it's kind of they play off each other. So it's great that you're focusing on the let's get the stimulus as high as we can and then start to balance things out. Yeah, go ahead.
Steve Hall 41:51
Yeah, I was just gonna say, I think it's very true. I think when you look, your average person in the gym, I look at the average person in my gym, and I'm like, Man, people must look at me like I'm a bit of a weirdo, because, like, I make noises, like really challenging myself. And like, I've my sleeve like a bit of a crazy man. Because most people in the gym just aren't pushing themselves to that point of discomfort. Actually, that's part of it, too. It should feel like uncomfortable when you're getting into like it in a positive way. It's kind of hard. It obviously shouldn't be injury provoking. But the muscle should feel challenged, and it should feel uncomfortable in that muscle to some extent, then that's like an element of you know, you're going hard enough. But yeah, a lot of people will just go through the motions. And that's where that inbuilt progressive overload where I'm like, match or beat, match or beat natural beat. Because if you aren't doing that, you can definitely spin your wheels. If you don't log book and have data to pull up on, like you said, if you're changing movements all the time, you're relearning everything. I mean, you could be training hard enough and you could be progressing. You certainly can't be certain of it, especially as naturals we grow so slowly, we can't like reliably be like, oh, yeah, look bigger in the mirror. You probably really can't use that as a metric unless maybe in the first few months of training. I know you actually asked the question. I don't know if you want me to revisit it. rep ranges. He said, any time to do low reps versus high reps and differentiating between those. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I just felt like because you asked that question, like the audience probably
Philip Pape 43:15
notes here, man. We could talk for four hours. So it's really
Steve Hall 43:20
short. So just one thing practically, with rep ranges, something I like to think about is just some lifts are more suitable to certain rep ranges is just part of matter of fact, like a hack squat, plus 15 reps. It's not super practical, any sort of squat pattern above 50 reps, it tends to become quite a cardiovascular challenge. Whereas leg extensions, they're very suitable for like 10 Plus reps, 15 plus reps into that 20 plus rep range, below 10 reps on a lay extension, it just starts to become a challenge to stand the sea and you just feel it in your joints and like your knees and things, it just isn't very practical. So quite a lot of the time rep ranges can kind of sort themselves out via what's actually practical for this lift for that person, like a lat pulldown, again, doing less than 10 reps or a lat pulldown, it's hard to stand the seat and have stability because if you're any kind of strong, you know, so even like I've done it in like the 10 to 12 rep range and I'm like this is hard for me to stay down I'll do a single arm, maybe I can do it then where's the pull up perfect in that rep range, because it's already challenging to go much higher than that. Anyway, and so yeah, kind of rep ranges to some extent I think can be within ranges can be self selected via what's practical for the person to be able to do Yeah,
Philip Pape 44:35
yeah, totally. And it's again individual right, like some people may thrive on you know, doing sets of 10 or 12 squats and others are like This is torture. You know, I'm great with five so yeah, my adductors are starting to give or some weird muscle starts to pop, you know. So is it okay, so speaking of reps or rain, actually range of motion is what I was thinking of next, because partial reps and lengthen. partials have been all the rage lately as well. What are your thoughts on that? Both in the context of like intensity techniques and kind of add on work versus like your primary type of training?
Steve Hall 45:13
Yeah, I think it's, it's really, that's probably been the most exciting area of research because nothing too much else has changed. This is the thing where it's like, everyone's just like full ROM, right? Like, that's the thing, everyone should be training full ROM. And, again, the bodybuilders haven't been doing that they've been doing partials for quite a long time. And they certainly didn't have in controlling all their lifts. Either you're looking at some barbell bent over rows, or you're like on his cable rows, like he would just swing that thing back to get it short, you know. And so it's very interesting seeing that, and then see the research come out to look at these things. And in the past, I think forum was the thing that was promoted in, in the past meta analyses, as well as the conclusion of forums the way to go. Because the partial research look to short muscle answers virtually all the time. I don't think there really any long muscle and versus fall versus short. But when they do start looking at the long muscle and training versus full run, it seems that the long muscle length training seems to do pretty well. And I think I'm not the expert on this. Milo Wolff would be the guy who knows this. Because this is where his PhD has been. He did the letter latest meta analyses. And I think there's over five studies now that have come out that have compared like long muscle lengths to either forearm or some other muscle length among muscle lengths, they're even neutral to positive. So haven't seen an outcome where people have grown worse from focusing on that long stretch position. Do we know the mechanism yet? No. People will debate this is it stretch mediated hypertrophy done or added sarcomeres? We just we don't know what the mechanism is yet. For me, I don't particularly care unless it has practical implications. Because, yeah, I mean, I like the science, I get into the weeds. But I'm a coach. I'm a practitioner, and I'm a bodybuilder, I want to know what's growing my muscles. And I want to know how I can make my clients grow more muscle. So it does appear that spending a little bit more time focusing on that length and position is a good idea. So there's many layers to this. So you could take it as far as hey, I'm going to make the only modification I'm going to make by training is I'm going to buy a more long muscle and training. So I'm going to do maybe less leg extensions. And I'm going to do more squats, and sissy squats and reverse Nordics. And I'm going to do less spider curls. And I'm going to do more like Bayesian curls where the cables behind me and I'm getting a stretch in this length and position on my bicep, and that'd be cool. That's definitely one way you could take the research and I'm definitely going to do forearm, I'm going to squat deep, I'm gonna get a big stretch on my lats when I'm coming up for a pull down or a pull up. Then you mentioned other ways you can incorporate and there's a number of ways. So as we mentioned, lat pull downs before, because of the kind of opposite resistance to strength profile of that, you could fail with many reps, where you could have got partials, so you could extend your set. Once I can't get to my chest, I'm gonna go and just get as low as I can as low as I can of low as I can until maybe I aligned, you could call it, hey, I'm gonna keep doing my kind of forearm is arranged now for me on that pull downs. It's from like, clavicle to eyes. Once I can't get to my eyes, hey, I'm done. Because I think there has to be some sort of heuristic or standardization of where is your color? Otherwise, you're gonna be like, Hey, I'm getting a centimeter length. And maybe this is growing. And actually, at the moment, we don't know how. So a lot of the researchers looked at about a 50% range of motion, so they just cut off the last 50%. So you're not coming, like from it's coming to about eyeline for like a lat pulldown saying you're not doing all the way down the laptop and actually specifically been looked at. And that's some limitations within the research. They've looked at the curves a lot, which has been pretty cool. I've done a lot of Lendon partials for my cars, because the the research that's come out is pretty convincing, that we tend to grow more in that stretch position. So I've like, not been doing that last little like up off the calf raise. And so that's been quite fun. And I think they've grown and responded quite well to that considering how stubborn calves can be. I've been quite impressed by
Philip Pape 49:11
the progress. What's your favorite movement to do that?
Steve Hall 49:14
Good question. So I don't like bent knee variants generally, I don't think they make the most sense. Are they tend to bias the bias in the soleus? Because of like the CD? Yeah, yeah. So the soleus is not the chunk of the muscle, the gastroc is like the chunk that's visually aesthetic, and the soleus just sits behind. So I'm like, why would I want a thicker soleus? That might look a bit I already have like thick ankles, like why do I want to like it just a thick muscle there. So the straight leg variants hit both pretty well and they bias the gastroc a little bit more. The gastroc gets the most of the brunt of the work. So I like straight leg variants. And honestly, people should experiment I think to find what suits them. Some people recommend doing in like a leg press because then you don't axial loading which I think gives a cool idea, like it's not loading the spine, so theoretically less fatiguing. But I have this one machine, actually too, but there's one in my gym, that doesn't load the spine. And it's just I think it's normally like a V squat or something like that. I don't use it for that purpose. I just do calf raises in it. And it just hits me like nothing else. I know because I train other gyms and I tried to like, I did like a smith machine calf raise in a gym and I was like, I'm just not getting that stimulus I can get from at home, however, like that machines set up with the load and with the footplate, it just hits them perfectly. So I do think, experimented a little bit with straight leg variants as your primary if you want to do some bend nice stuff. Hey, how about it, I'm not going to stop someone. But I think the straight leg variant is probably the route to best growth, especially for like aesthetic carves. Yeah.
Philip Pape 50:45
And you just mentioned like, you know, let's see how you feel and try different movements. I mean, I think for me, the pitch shark, which I don't have one, but you can kind of rig up a similar idea of like a belt squat seemed to work for the calves. You know, I was just doing squats one day, and I said, let me just add some calves in here. Like, whoa, you know, gotta burn so yeah, yeah, calves are chicken when, especially when you have a home gym to try to rig things up just the right way to get it to work.
Steve Hall 51:09
Yeah, yeah, when I was, that throws me back to when we had the lock downs and all of that. And I was just doing stair carbs or like off like a stair. I was just doing single leg calves. I was using my dipping belt to like, way down harder and everything and mad. Yeah, the reps just got a little bit too, like high on that. And I ended up feeling a lot of my Achilles tendon, which is unfortunate that can happen with calf training quite a lot. Yeah.
Philip Pape 51:34
Cool, man. So all right, that we talked about the lengthen partials. Yeah, I know that's getting a lot of play now. So I like the idea of doing movements full ROM that just happened to have a lengthened and extended lengthened position. kind of took me back to the days of like, the 777 with the bar with the dumbbell curls, which, you know, you were trying to get the different ranges go in there. What about ones? Yeah, you know, or 20 ones? Yeah, right. Right. Exactly. Right. As far as all the so we've mentioned individual response. You've mentioned heuristics and like applying research to training hard. We've also talked about not like over relying on too many of these studies, I guess, I don't know if we missed anything in terms of somebody who wants to keep pushing it and train hard and get feedback from themselves later on. So you talked about the ascension and the fatigue and all that. Is there something people should be tracking specifically? Obviously, their lifts, but any other biofeedback, anything, even nutrition wise, or kind of correlating data that would tell them that they're training hard or not training hard enough or need to change up the programming?
Steve Hall 52:40
Yeah, it's a great question. I think there is divergent views on this in the evidence based space, because it's not something that's been researched very well, in terms of this biofeedback. But I think everyone can relate to the biofeedback that we'll discuss. And I think I see value in tracking some of these variants, because part of me is like, hey, there are at all and we don't have anything better to go off. Actually, in a funny way. I view them similar to a diet, and we're trying to lose weight, we tracked the scale, and someone is tracking their macros and what have you, they're trying to hit certain calorie protein fat carb goal. Some heuristics you might also track alongside is like, Hey, how's your app? Like, how's your hunger? How's your like irritability? Like how's hanger? Basically? Do we just ignore all of that? Or that can those be useful feedback tools, because hunger doesn't actually matter for fat loss? Well, not really. Like if you boil it down to calorie deficit, but someone might not adhere to the diet, they might binge, it might give you some feedback of hey, they're hungry today. So or this week, they said they're hungry, or look at their food plan. Or maybe we can put some boiled potatoes in a secret weapon, they stuff everyone, right? You're having too many Coco Pops have some more oats, these are the things that are going to satiate you more. Whereas if you ignored hunger feedback from a client, suddenly they're binging on the weekend, because I coach them and I can't stick these calories, it's way too hard. Whereas if you had that feedback, you can now make an appropriate adjustment to one of their meals and similar here to some of this biofeedback or make it make sense. So like the pump is something that everyone knows about, and it's heard about, you think about a balloon filling up and again to burst some muscles really get a very good pump, or they respond better to the pump than others. For me, like my quads, some of my quad pumps are just horrendous. I'm like, wow, like, This is the craziest thing ever. Calves my carbs would never get a pump until I started actually introducing Moreland and partial work, really pushing the relative intensity closer to failure as are now something's happening. And so the pump tends to correlate with some positive things. I think, whether or not that even could be Hey, Coach, I'm not getting a pump in my quads off to lay extensions. You look at them doing leg extensions, they're just flinging the weight around. They're not bringing it down deep. You're like, hey, control the eccentric, bring it down as deep as you can, like, do all of these things. And you'll get the feedback that either the pumps better, or it could just be like a foot placement difference on a leg press, hey, when I have my feet here, nothing too much here all. And obviously part of the pump is blood flow, I think blood flow go into muscles are a good idea, if you're getting a pump that muscles clearly working. So as a feedback tool, as a coach and practitioner, I find that feedback really helpful. And then some other indicators be like soreness is something you can can pay attention to. Now, and regarding the pump, the reason I say like it's divergent views is because we just don't have evidence either way, there's not really strong evidence suggesting you can use the pump is like, and then it even indicates cell swelling. And we don't know if that is a mechanism for growth. And the same for like whether or not it does. So there's some like interesting, it's an area that we need more research and study on basically. But obviously, bring it back to anecdote again, how many bodybuilders tip pay attention to the pump, I think virtually all. So as a coach, it's been useful for me and with my own training. And then soreness is another key thing that you can look at. Actually, before soreness, I'll come on to another element that I named stimulus. So it's something I get my clients to track within their spreadsheets. In fact, I used to have pump and disruption. So pump is as I described, disruption is more so the muscle feeling tight, lots of local fatigue. And maybe it's like quivering if you've ever done like leg curls, and many sets and then you come off, you're like my hamstrings feel like they're going to cramp like it's, it's kind of that disruptive feeling. Hamstrings don't really feel pumped and full, they kind of feel tight and heavy. Same with like the back muscles like this. So I kind of named that disruption, like, I now combine the two. So I kind of combined them as as pumping disruption rather than having my clients have to fill out all these different things. So how's the stimulus, think of pumping disruption is it's like nothing low, minimal high. And that gives me some useful feedback. And then the other thing I get them to think about is soreness. But I only get it if it's more after the session than than expected. So I don't particularly care if someone gets sore or not. In terms of dope growing, I don't think soreness you, I don't think you have to get sore to be growing, we have data, we don't have data to suggest that it's necessary. And in fact, it could be harmful. The thing I like about soreness is it tells me how far someone's recovering. And it also, sometimes you might finish training a muscle in a session and think not much happened. But the next day, suddenly you get sore that sometimes can happen. So I like it to kind of come in as like an afterthought. Did you get sore than you expected? If you did, okay, then your stimulus was more than you thought you were getting. So it can be useful there. And then how fast that muscle recovering you recovering way ahead of a session, or you're recovering just on time, or you actually saw when you're looking to train that muscle again. And that allows me to know about how are they dealing with the level of volume they've got through the week? How are they dealing with their frequency that they've got right now? Do I need to make a modification there? It might be that hey, my side delts are feeling recovered, like way ahead of time, they're doing two times a week, I'm okay, maybe we can go three times a week. And we can get more growth or maybe again, they're sore and overlapping. We need to back off on volume here. So that we're not creating such an amount of damage, muscle damage and stimulus that you're now that's excess fatigue, essentially, that's now leading to worse performance worse outcome. So there's some of yeah, like I said, stimulus pump disruption. And then soreness is something I like and then it says using soreness is also like a readiness tool. Are you feeling sore or not leading into a training session? There's some of the biofeedback measures that I think can be really valuable, like little toolkits, that similar to like hunger and appetite during a diet phase. Like they're not objective things that you use to program with, but they can give you little insights into small adjustments you could make to make things even better. Yeah,
Philip Pape 58:50
yeah, no, I love those. That was one of the best explanations of those that I've heard, because I know a lot of people disparage these sometimes, because like you said, you know, you don't need to be sore on the pump isn't necessarily an indicator of this or that. But it is almost objective. I know it's subjective, but just like biofeedback, hunger and whatnot, it may be subjective. In the moment, the trend over time tells you something because it's your body and you're listening to it, and in tune with it. And the idea that the soreness tells you your individual volume response, not only systemically but per muscle group. I think it's great for individuals, you know, who are listening, who even want to do that themselves, just start marking that in their training log, and really toning in on the different muscle groups and where you can add more volume and takeaway volume. So super practical, man. All right. So we're kind of we're at the top of the hour again here. So I'm going to go to that magic question. Because we talked about a lot today, but is there anything you wish I had asked and what is your answer? Yeah,
Steve Hall 59:45
great question. And I appreciate that. You thought that answer was a good one. It's always nice to hear so yeah, actually, he told me this question was coming and I'm still like, I should have saved something in my back pocket that I wish you'd asked about it I wonder some people just like no, you asked all good questions. And honestly, you did ask good questions. Yeah, I can't necessarily think of anything in particular that we haven't covered. I wanted to cover I just think if people ever feel like lost and confused with these things, definitely put it back to the principles, especially when they get lost into program design, if they just put it back to Okay, so specificity, overload, progressive overload, and what I need to achieve in my program, and then don't overthink it, don't try make the perfect most optimal program possible, because we can't possibly know what that is, get something together, productive, do you feel like is hard and you're progressing over time, then little tweaks. And that's all we're doing with our clients. It's like, we're making our kind of best guess, which is a pretty good guess, right? Because we're educated coaches who kind of work with a lot of people and have a good amount of experience, we make our best guess at first. And then I'm getting all this feedback, objective and subjective, to make the best cause to lead to the best responses for them, and learn your body over time and is a constant learning process. I've been doing this for like, I've been trading personally for over 15 years. And I always feel like I'm learning something. Like I said, for my calves, they've probably grown the most they have over the last year versus like, 10 years before that, because I just simply wasn't training them as effectively as I could have. You learn things all the time. So yeah, never stop learning. Man, you took
Philip Pape 1:01:19
it right back to the whole foundation of this discussion of personal growth and always getting stronger. And I love that going back to principles. Don't overthink it, especially as perfectionists out there. Don't overthink it. Train hard match or beat, collect feedback and tweak and you'll be fine. So awesome. All right. Where can listeners learn more about you, Steve? For
Steve Hall 1:01:38
sure. Yeah, thank you again for having me, Philip. It's been a really fun chat. People can find me at revive stronger. So revived stronger.com is our website, you'll be able to find our coaching. The podcasts will be linked there too. I'm also most active on Instagram as just the social media platform I enjoy the most at revive stronger over there. And you can find like, if you like podcasts, definitely check out the revived stronger podcast where I get to interview really smart individuals. And we also have the improvement season podcast which is a separate podcast that I do with Pascal, my business partner and coach on the team where it's a much more chitchat podcast, still somewhat bodybuilding related, we talk about our journeys, but yeah, we got off piste quite a bit on that,
Philip Pape 1:02:19
ya know, for sure, man, and I love it. I can't have enough of these in my feed, but then you got to figure out what to listen to. So revive stronger.com and iG at revive stronger and also the improvement season podcast. I'll throw that in. It's been a lot of fun. We covered a lot of topics, but I think it's all practical stuff people need to hear and want to hear. So thanks. Thanks again for coming on, Steve.
Steve Hall 1:02:38
Thank you for having me.
Philip Pape 1:02:41
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 158: The Science of Hunger and 9 Hacks to Outsmart Your Appetite (Especially in Fat Loss!)
Why does hunger strike when you're cutting calories? Do you want to know the best way to curb hunger during fat loss? In this episode, Philip dives into the fascinating world of hunger, the science behind it, and how it affects your fat loss journey. He talks about the hunger hormones — leptin and ghrelin and how stress and cortisol can make you crave that extra snack. He shares nine practical strategies to help you stay on track and how protein, spices, and water play an important role in these real-life hacks.
Why does hunger strike when you're cutting calories? Do you want to know the best way to curb hunger during fat loss?
In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the fascinating world of hunger, the science behind it, and how it affects your fat loss journey. He talks about the hunger hormones — leptin and ghrelin and how stress and cortisol can make you crave that extra snack. He shares nine practical strategies to help you stay on track and how protein, spices, and water play an important role in these real-life hacks.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:51 Hunger during a calorie deficit
4:45 The science of hunger
7:46 Cortisol's role in hunger and appetite
10:55 Managing hunger with quality of sleep
12:34 Influence of the senses on hunger
19:22 Nine hunger hacks
35:40 Outro
Episode resources:
When it comes to weight management, understanding the mechanisms behind hunger is pivotal for both short-term success and long-term sustainability. This episode takes a deep dive into the science of hunger and provides listeners with actionable strategies to navigate the complexities of appetite during a weight loss journey.
Hunger is not just a signal of an empty stomach; it's a complex interplay of hormones, psychological factors, and physiological needs. Leptin and ghrelin, known as the hunger hormones, play crucial roles in signaling satiety and hunger, respectively. When we're in a calorie deficit, leptin levels decrease, and ghrelin levels increase, leading to increased hunger. This hormonal dance is our body's way of trying to maintain homeostasis and can be quite challenging to manage when trying to shed pounds.
Chronic feelings of hunger could indicate a metabolic suppression, where the body maintains weight in a low-energy state, which is not ideal for long-term health. Philip points out that managing chronic stress is essential in this equation, as elevated cortisol levels can lead to overeating and weight gain. Stress management techniques, therefore, become critical components of a successful diet strategy.
Sleep is another unsung hero in the battle against the bulge. Sleep deprivation can disrupt the hormonal balance and increase the production of ghrelin while decreasing leptin, leading to enhanced appetite and cravings. Good sleep hygiene is, thus, not just beneficial for cognitive and physical health but is also a powerful tool in the fight against fat.
One of the most engaging parts of the episode is Philip’s personal top nine hunger hacks, a selection from his larger list of twenty. These strategies are designed to be high-impact yet low-effort, integrating seamlessly into one's lifestyle. For instance, he suggests prioritizing protein intake, which is known for its satiety-inducing effects, and aiming for daily fiber targets to aid in fullness. Additionally, he discusses the benefits of constructing nutrient-dense meals, such as the "big ass salad," which combines protein, fiber, and hydration to create a satiating and enjoyable eating experience.
Moreover, Philip highlights the importance of hydration in staving off hunger, suggesting water and low-calorie drinks as allies in the journey toward fat loss. He also touches on the psychological components of hunger, acknowledging that hunger during dieting can be both a physical and mental challenge.
In conclusion, the episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the hunger equation and offers practical, science-backed strategies to conquer cravings and enjoy a pleasurable slimming process. Philip’s expertise shines through as he blends scientific knowledge with relatable advice, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in effective weight management.
For those looking to delve further into these topics and adopt these strategies, the full episode offers a wealth of information and inspiration. As the episode underscores, mastering hunger is about more than just willpower; it's about strategy, understanding, and enjoyment—key ingredients for a successful and sustainable weight loss journey.
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
Have you ever struggled with feeling deprived, constantly hungry or even hangry while trying to lose fat? Today, we are uncovering the science behind increased hunger during a calorie deficit and nine game changing, but as always practical strategies for keeping those cravings at bay so you can stay consistent. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits &
Philip Pape 00:47
Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. In our last episode 157 Bill Campbell on aggressive dieting, dirty bulking and keto effects on muscle building. Dr. Campbell was back on to revisit the latest in rapid fat loss, including our findings from the Wits & Weights shred Tober challenge from 2023 that followed a protocol inspired by his research, we discussed progressive versus aggressive calorie deficits. When does optimal bulking become dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle building and a new study that bill's Research Lab is currently planning today for Episode 158, the science of hunger and nine hacks to outsmart your appetite, especially in fat loss, you're going to learn about the science behind why we experience increased hunger when trying to lose weight. Plus, I'm going to share nine hacks or practical strategies to help manage cravings and adhere to your fat loss phase. So you don't get too hangry. A big shout out to Luke P in our Wits & Weights Facebook community for suggesting this topic because apparently it's been a while or maybe I've never done a full episode on managing hunger, even though I have both a hunger hacks guide, and a hunger scale and diary available for free to anyone who wants it. So if you want the hunger hacks guide, you can click the link in my show notes. Or if you want that one or the other guide, either way, you can go to wits & weights.com/free, and grab a copy for yourself. Hunger is obviously very important. It's probably one of the most important signals during fat loss that makes it difficult for people to adhere. And I do think it is a critical topic. And so today, I want to make it make sure it's comprehensive in terms of understanding why we get hungry, but also give you some tools to manage hunger there. There's a long list, I have a full list of 20 in my hunger hacks guide. And today I'm going to share a subset of those some of that some of my favorites. So let's get into today's episode, the science of hunger and nine hacks to outsmart your appetite, especially in fat loss. Now, if you've ever tried to lose weight, for the purposes of losing fat, you know that hunger can be one of the biggest challenges. It is the first thing that I noticed within a day or two when I go into a fat loss phase. And I hear the same thing from clients are like, well, everything else is fine. Nothing else has changed. But I'm all of a sudden getting hungry. And it's a very common reason why many people struggle to be consistent or stick with that diet. And then they ultimately fail to reach their goals. Just today I was doing a client check in and she was talking about how we have a fairly aggressive deficit. And she was talking about almost trying to white knuckle it through. And I said well, we need to take take step back. As soon as you get to the moment where the hunger becomes all consuming, or the focus of your attention, or becomes an impediment to you continuing with something has to change and that something might be changing the rate of loss, adding in some refeeds, things like that. Now, I'm not going to talk about those strategies. Today, I'm going to talk about things that you can do to mitigate or manage or even stop hunger, if it happens to be, for example, psychological hunger, or to simply reduce the amount of time that you get hungry, all of the things that just make it a little bit if not a lot easier to continue with a certain calorie deficit. But having said all that, the answer may be you're in too big of a debt calorie deficit. So I just wanted to bring that up early in this episode, in case you feel that hunger can be completely eliminated, which is impossible. Hunger is a sign your body is doing what you want it to do. So today we're going to dive into why we experienced hunger during a calorie deficit. Okay, I'm not going to talk about hunger during a calorie surplus. That also happens, believe it or not, but it's similar principles we're going to talk about mainly during the deficit. And I'm gonna give you some strategies to make it more successful, more sustainable, so that you have a better understanding of how to navigate all of this stuff. So let's talk about the science first. Now this is this piece I may not have included if it weren't for Luke's suggestion of hey, just explain a little bit behind why we get hungry what is really going on. And so I'm going to start with the hunger hormones, leptin and greyling probably heard of these, but if not, it's good to know them, good to become friends with them and manage them right and kind of make them your, well, we'll just leave it at that. All right, when we're in a calorie deficit, our bodies are in a state that is not natural. And so they naturally want to return to homeostasis, they want to get back to that state of balance. But as we lose fat, because we're trying to do that intentionally, and our fat cells shrink, and I did a whole episode about fat oxidation, mobilization, all that, like what happens with the fat a little while ago, our body releases less leptin. Okay, Leptin is a hormone that tells you your full, it's a satiety hormone says, Hey, you're full, as we're losing fat or fat cells shrink, it sends a signal to your body to release less of it can it does that through your brain. And at the same time, the opposite happens with the hunger hormone, ghrelin, it goes up, and it makes us feel hungry. And so this, the shift in these hormones, is one of many ways that our body says, Hey, eat more food, because I need to get back to energy balance. And this is why so many of you through years of dieting, even when you don't lose weight, your body's adapted, you still feel hungry all the time. One of the first questions I ask somebody on on my free calls, or even a new client is how often you feel hungry, like are you living in a perpetual state of hunger, because if they tell me, Look, I'm not losing weight, and I think I'm at maintenance calories, but I'm hungry all the time. That's a good indicator that you are not at maintenance calories, you are maintaining your weight, but you're doing so in an energy deficit, not a calorie deficit, but but in a low energy state. So in other words, you're not in a deficit, but you're below where you could be not being in a deficit, right, your metabolism is being suppressed, and then that would cause you to be hungry. So that's important to understand that the hunger right there right off the bat is telling you that you're in a low energy state of some kind. The next quick thing I want to mention is carbs. Before we get into some more of the detailed science of the hormones, when we are in a dieting phase, or in fat loss phase, where we're eating fewer carbs, just by definition, if you're doing it the right way, when the focus is body composition and preserving muscle, your protein is kept high, so your fats and carbs come down and your calories are fairly limited. When we're eating fewer carbs, it is just harder to recover from workouts, then the workouts feel more challenging. And this is because carbs are the body's preferred source of fuel, especially for high intensity exercise, which includes our lifting sessions, believe it or not. And so when CARB is low, we feel more fatigued, and we're less able to push ourselves in the gym. So I want to I want to mention that as well, because it's not hunger, per se, but it's part of the whole equation of being deprived of energy, okay, and it all kind of feeds on itself. One of the most important hormones besides the two hunger hormones is cortisol. We know many of you know cortisol as the stress hormone. And it does play a huge role in hunger and appetite. Because when we're under stress, and fat loss is a stressor, our bodies release cortisol. Guess what that does? Well, it increases feelings of hunger. It also increases cravings for energy, which we see as high calorie high palatable, in our in our world, in the Western world, processed foods, high carbon sugar, and fat type foods, right foods that wouldn't exist in nature, but we are amazing at making them with our science. And hey, they're delicious. I like a good doughnut ice cream or pizza here and there. But when you're in fat loss, and when the stress is higher, and now you've got emotions in the mix as well, especially if there's some emotional eating that you haven't dealt with yet. All of it comes together as a perfect storm of cortisol induced injury. All right. Now, this is thought to be an adaptation to stressful situations. Like if you think of our evolution, when there's a stressful situation, we want energy we want to restore again, it's coming back to homeostasis. So we're gonna go find the most nutrient dense thing we can. It's just all subconscious. And so in today's world, because we also have chronic stress, we have these consistently elevated cortisol levels. And and we know for a fact that this is contributing to overeating and weight gain in a massive part of the population. But if you're listening to this, and I've never thought about the importance of stress in your life, get it through your head that stress and chronic stress could be the number one factor behind why you're having trouble losing fat or maintaining your body composition. And managing stress is also very important. Now what's interesting is, after this episode comes out, probably it might not be for a few months, I'll be doing an interview. I'm not going to say your name just yet, but I'll be doing an interview with some actually a couple of interviews coming up. One interview is related to self care practices, which is something I don't talk about a lot because it's we often put it in the whoo category or like and you know, it's like at the bottom of the list after strength training and protein and sleep and everything else. But it could be the number one thing on your list in your life right now. that is preventing you from getting what you want. So I just want to emphasize that stress itself is important when it comes to hunger. Because the stress increases the hunger and then it all perpetuates. Alright, and in managing stress, you know, there's techniques like meditation and breathing, exercise and training and all that, to regulate your cortisol levels. This is why I love strength training, one of the reasons, I find that the acute stressor of training hard, seems to lower chronic stress. And because it lowers chronic stress, it also helps with hunger, just like walking does as well, just like having good gut health. And I'm not even getting into gut health today. But the more I learned about this more, I realized that that's important in hunger. So again, we're talking to science, we're not even getting to the hacks of how to manage it, because the best hacks of all are having a well balanced, low stress lifestyle, while you're in fat loss. And that's why we don't want to start fat loss when we have a lot of stressors on our life. Okay, so the corollary to this is going to be sleep that, right sleep affects your appetite regulating hormones, as well. And it increases cortisol. So it's like one messes with the other, and just makes it worse and worse. So when you don't have enough sleep, it disrupts hormonal balance, for hunger and fullness. Because when we are sleep deprived, we produce even more gralen. That's the hunger hormone, and even less leptin. And then we get increased appetite and cravings. Okay, and this is probably our body's, again, try, our body's trying to get back to homeostasis. And it says, Well, if you're going to deprive me of relaxation, and recovery, and getting into those different levels of deep brainwave states, so that my brain can recover, heck, I need to make up for it somewhere else, I need to eat food. So I'm going to increase your appetite. And that is why getting enough hours and quality of sleep is so important for managing hunger, and maintaining the body weight, the body composition you're looking for. And I've mentioned it before, but being sleep deprived, will not only cause you to get hungrier, when you're gaining weight, or when you're gaining fat, it causes you to store fat more in the visceral fat area, the protective fat around your organs, which is the danger, or I should say the dangerous fat that causes belly fat, right belly fat, you're going to store it in your belly. That's what I'm trying to say. So again, sleep here is technically like a hunger hack. But it's not on my list of that I'm talking about here. But I wanted to mention it in the science of hunger. So aim for the seven to nine hours of sleep, you know, get the quality, sleep, hygiene and all of that to keep those hormones in balance and reduce the likelihood of a hunger being higher than it needs to be. Another thing on related to the science of hunger is the influence of our senses. In the perception of hungry, this is important food, that sight of food, just seeing food, smelling food, and the sound of food like chewing or crunching, somebody eating a bag of chips.
Philip Pape 12:56
That was totally me just acting. That's pretty impressive, right? Those can trigger hunger and cravings, especially cravings, even if we're not physically hungry. Ah, come on, you know what I'm talking about. And this is why it's important to be mindful. And I don't mean mindful eating. But that's important, yes, but mindful the environment we eat in, and the sensory cues that were exposed to, and those cues and some of my clients know who you are, might include, you know, someone in your family loves to bake goods, and they're always baking in the kitchen always smells great. And the food's always on the table. We've got the pies and the muffins and the cakes. And they're there. And even though they know they're trying to support you, and they know what your goals are, and you think you've got all your steel will discipline there. The queues are unavoidable to our primal brains, right? So simple strategies like keeping those foods out of sight. Avoiding environments that have strong smells when you're hungry, eating in a quiet distraction, free setting, right? All of those help us tune into our physical hunger cues, and avoid overeating in response to sensory triggers. Now, notice, as I'm telling you about the science of hunger, I'm actually already sharing things that you might consider strategies and hacks to minimize hunger. Okay. And in fact, one more comes to mind that isn't even on my hunger hacks list. And I didn't even have it in my notes today. And I just thought of it. And so you're gonna get this bonus hack right now. When you go to a restaurant, you're probably hungry, you're probably hungry for a few reasons. You're hungry because you didn't want to ruin your appetite ahead of time. Like when you go to a restaurant, you want to enjoy the food, and you're hungry because of the sensory environment that we just talked about. This is what triggered it. You've got the visual environment of the tables and the place settings and the clinking glasses, the silverware. The smells of the food coming out of the kitchen. Heck, the smell coming out of the restaurant before you even walk in. Right? I'm convinced they put some sort of little smell capsules in there to make it smell like you know, char grilled steak, even when they're not cooking. But, you know, especially like a barbecue place. Oh boy, don't get me started. So You go in there, you're already hungry, because of all this stuff. And you're already thinking in your brain about the wonderful foods that are gonna be there. The wonderful experience is this positive thing for so many of us. And so if you don't have a plan, if you don't think ahead, you're just going to dive in and just start eating whatever and you can easily over consume. Now, how can you enjoy yourself, but but not over consuming? Okay? Now, this is a lot harder during fat loss, I get it. But whatever the situation is, if we're gonna go to a restaurant all the way I would do it is, and I think I heard this on April serveis, that YouTube channel or podcast, start with a fairly boring, nutrient dense low calorie, appetizer, like a salad that it's not so boring that you don't like it. But it's boring enough that it doesn't have very many calories. And when you eat it, it'll still taste good, because you're hungry. So in other words, start with a more bland, kind of boring, calorie dense or nutrient dense stuff first, because you're just so hungry, and ravenous, it's probably going to taste great anyway. And you know what I'm talking about, or, like, you're just hungry for anything, you'll eat anything, and it just tastes great, even like, you know, stale bread. Start with that, and then it starts to fill up your stomach. And then you start to get less hungry, and you kind of space it out, and then move to the more calorie dense stuff as you go along. And the idea being that you won't eat as much simply because of your hunger cues. Okay, so that that was the hack, I just wanted to tie it into this whole sensory environment. Now, there's also a psychological component to hunger during fat loss, right? There's a huge psychological components, you know it from day one of your fat loss phase, I know I do when I go from a bulk to a cut. And I was eating five or six times a day, and I was eating, you know, 3200 calories. And now I'm going down to say 2000 calories, that huge jump, it may not cause as much physical as psychological hunger, because I'm just not eating nearly as much food and my brain is like, what is going on something changed massively. You are eating five times, now you're eating three, you're going these long stretches nowadays, eating what is going on. And you become more food aware, and you think about food more often. And that makes you feel like you're hungrier. Right, even if you try to do the hacks like drinking water, and going and being busy. It's still there, right? Even if our physical hunger levels haven't changed. So this is the science behind it. That's, that's as detailed as I want to get, I really want to get to the hacks now. But it is very important to recognize that hunger is normal, it is expected want to revisit that concept, it's not something you could just eliminate. If you're not accepting of any hunger at all, you're either gonna go to fat loss, and you're gonna fail pretty quickly, you're gonna fall on your face, because you're just expecting it to be this easy ride. Or you just want to go at a slower pace, right? And incorporate more of the things we're going to talk about today just to mitigate that so that the hunger is as low as it can possibly be to where it's very, it's very below the surface, almost. And you could easily do that. Think about when you're just at maintenance, you're generally not hungry. Well, what if you just ate like 100 calories less a day? Well, you would start to lose weight slowly over time, and he still wouldn't be that hungry. It's a matter of degrees. Okay. Now, I personally like to go very aggressive early in a fat loss phase, and then taper it, but some people will go less and some people will do something in between like, go aggressive, but then the weekends are gonna go up to maintenance. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights, I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today. I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. And if we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.
Philip Pape 19:22
So with that in mind, let's dive into nine of my favorite hunger hacks. And I mentioned that these are part of a full list. The full list has 20 Hunger hacks, this is my hunger hacks guide and it's completely free if you want it for yourself. Just click the link in the show notes or go to wits & weights.com/free, but the full hunger hacks guided by the way that website wits & weights.com/free. Or if you click free stuff, as a whole bunch of guys keep adding to it. They're totally free. Download as many as you want. Alright, here we go. Hunger hacks nine hunger hacks of the 20 in my guide, the first one is probably no surprise. Prioritize protein at every meal, and every snack when you're in At last, you need a lot of protein as a percentage of your calories, it ends up being 40 or 50%. For a lot of people, so just eat it all the time, just make it a rule for yourself that you're always gonna have protein. It's the most filling macro, it helps keep us feeling full and satisfied for longer, especially if you eat it from food sources. You might experiment if you're gonna have protein powder, experiment, having casing instead of whey and see if the longer digestion helps you feel full longer, for example, and all the all the protein sources or games, including game yeah, gave me lean meat, fish, eggs, tofu plants, it doesn't matter but have something that every meal and every snack, don't get hung up on the leucine threshold, don't get hung up on whether you have too much or too little. If your total protein for the day is met, you're good. After that point. If you're doing that consistently, you can go and look at other ways to optimize. Okay, so just prioritize protein at every meal and every snack. That's it. Number two, include fiber. Now, can you include it at every meal? Maybe not? Maybe not. If you have a primarily protein based meal, it may not have much fiber. But if you're looking for a number to hit, I'm going to try to hit for for women at least 20 grams a day for men probably 30 grams a day. Yeah, even during fat loss. And if you can go higher, even better. I came across one of my clients, his wife was doing keto. And so she buys all this keto food, you know, keto branded food, one of them is this keto bread. And I went and looked for something like that a Whole Foods and I found it because I wanted to try it out during fat loss myself. And it was like, it was like 80 calories for two slices of bread. Whereas normally two slices would be 220. And I looked at the package and it's you know, it's made from like wheat starch. The fiber was incredible. It was it was 10 grams a slice, or 15 grams, I don't know, it was some high amount, some crazy amount of it's like all fiber. Basically, you're Yeah, you maybe you're just eating cardboard, I don't know some people joke joke about it, right. But a lot of bread doesn't have a lot of flavor anyway. So it kind of works to hold things like a sandwich. Anyway, I got off set track there. But adding fiber will slow your digestion as well. So it's not just because of the goodness of fiber for your gut. And for your health. It's also for your digestion and for your hunger. It promotes fullness, big time, it bulks up the meals, it slows down the digestion. When you look at a packaged food, if you've ever scanned it into your food app, like if you guys use macro factor, but quick add here macro factor, download it, use a code Wits & Weights O N word, you get an extra week free trial, right out macro factor, okay? When you look at a packaged food label, and you look at the carbs, and the calories and the fiber, and it has a lot of fiber, you'll realize the math doesn't add up, if you use the normal calories per gram for carbs. So carbs we usually think of as having four calories per gram, just like protein. But fiber is less than that, because some of the fiber doesn't get digested. So the food companies are allowed to account for the true calories, which is fine like that, that's, that's honest, to be to be honest, they're not lying by doing that. For every gram of carbs, that's really a fiber gram, you're not quite getting four calories out of it, you might be getting two, three, or one, you know, it depends on the type of fiber and all that. In fact, there's insoluble right? Might be close to zero. So when you see net carbs, that's how they're calculated. My point is, it's an interesting concept when you think about it, because you're, you've got all this food volume, but the calories are lower. And that's kind of the benefit of fiber, right? That's what I'm trying to say. Good sources of fiber just from whole foods are going to be fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, legumes, you know, depending on how your diet fits those in with the carbs, maybe less on the table during fat loss or not. But definitely fruits, vegetables, and then again, whole grains it depends on carb levels. So fruits and vegetables are going to be my primary in that case. And that leads me to number three, which is incorporating vegetables and salads as much as possible. So I made this a separate hack. Because I think during fat loss, it's helpful that every lunch every dinner and then potentially one or two or three snacks including breakfast, you throw vegetables in there, you throw steamed, raw, maybe if you can handle it like raw vegetables, some people can't handle the digest, you know too much of that, especially like cruciferous or the FODMAP sensitivity or something but steamed vegetables cooked even like even pureed but the problem is I don't like that during fat loss because you're missing out on the chew ability which is gonna be a different hack that I'm gonna get to later. So I like what they call a big ass salad for lunch where you might have meal prep some chicken or pork or fish or you know, tempeh or whatever. And you incorporate it in a big giant salad with greens, peppers, zucchini, cucumbers, like all the things that are super filling I have my have a lot of water in them and very few calories. Okay, vegetables are great. I mean, I wouldn't even include some fruits in here like strawberries is a good one because it has five fiber and pretty low calories. So definitely throw those in your salad. Oranges are great. Orange is high satiety apples are high satiety but those in your salad right it's just Amazing. So this adds volume, right? The non starchy vegetables, they're low in calories or high in volume, they fill you up, they don't add calories to your diet, you know, go all out with all the different colors, enjoy yourself a lot of great flavors to enjoy freshness, you know, go with the seasons go with the farms, seasons and all that fun stuff. Okay. So if rule number one when a client says I'm starting to get hungry, Mike, I look at their data, say are you you got enough protein got enough fiber got enough vegetables. Usually they're good on the protein because we've already worked on that before the fat loss phase. But the fiber and the vegetables sometimes are lacking. And it's just, it's just a habit. It's just a matter of saying like, Okay, I need to meal plan a little bit to get these in, make sure I go to the grocery store, have them stocked up, you know, buy those giant boxes or bags of greens, make it easy on yourself, buy the pre cut up stuff if you want, or just chop it all up on a Sunday. Okay, number four, hydration, always I've got to have this on the list. I know everybody knows it. But a lot of people just don't do it. They neglect it. In fact, as I record this show, I realized I probably haven't had a glass of water in two hours. And that's a long enough time. And I'm a fat loss. That I'm probably feeling a little dehydrated right now, let alone the fact that it would have staved off some hunger now I'm not feeling hunger now because I'm doing this. Okay, which is one of those hacks I don't have on this list, but distracting yourself. But staying hydrated comes in a lot of forms. This could be water, of course water with electrolytes. It could be coffee, I know coffee is mildly diuretic. And of course you've got the caffeine to watch out for later in the day we do decaf, or have you coffee in your morning? Tea. Same idea. Diet soda. Okay, I am I'm a huge fan of diet soda. I love it. I know there's no there's no issues artificial sweeteners in my book. And if you have a problem with that, keep the hate to yourself, okay, because the science doesn't support any health risks whatsoever from moderate consumption of diet soda, just like there's not really a health risk of moderate consumption of just about anything. That's the point. It's moderate. It's moderate. Okay, so one diet soda a day to diet sodas cans a day, if that helps you curb your hunger. If you enjoy it, if it tastes great, if you'd like the fish and the experience, if you have a favorite flavor that you look forward to, okay, great. Enjoy it. Like it replaces the food in a way you know, mentally psychologically. It keeps you hydrated, right, it's something to look forward to. It's got it checks all the boxes. Thirst can be mistaken for hunger, you know this. So just staying hydrated on a regular basis can help. And then electrolytes like make sure to have electrolytes once or twice during the day will also help your body stay hydrated. Okay, so my point on that one is like if you feel hungry, and it wasn't that long ago, since you eat just go get a glass of water if you haven't had one yet, in a while. Alright, hack number five, spice up your meals, so that they taste better, and also increase satiety. So there's some science behind this, I don't I don't have the details. But I'm definitely aware that if you have more flavor, variety, more protein more robustness to the flavor. Your body perceives it as more satisfying, and therefore it can reduce the hunger. Right. And all you got to do here is add spices, herbs, anything you know, even mustard, anything that's like low to no calorie type seasoning to all your meals. Just go for experiment with different spices, find combinations you enjoy. This is the time to do it. Maybe you're meal prepping your meat, go ahead and experiment with a whole bunch of great spices at you know, the antioxidant effects of the capsaicin, right pepper base, spices, chilies, stuff like that can be great. But just just versatility in general and flavor without adding calories. Spices will be your friend. Alright, number six. Okay, this is one of those unique ones people don't talk about a lot. Having a consistent eating routine, a consistent eating schedule, can help regulate your hunger. And I believe it has to do with the fact that our bodies are very good at adapting. And when you are constantly changing things on your body, it will adapt. And in this case, the adaptation is more hunger. Whereas if you are eating the same day for same time for breakfast, lunch, snack dinner day after day after day, your body can expect it your body doesn't have to be stressed or seek out an adaptation. Because anything's changing. Nothing's changing. So it just kind of coasts along. And what I've seen happen to some people, when they get into a consistent eating schedule is not only does the hunger come down, but sometimes their metabolic rate goes up. Okay, I can't I can't guarantee that that's going to happen for you. But sometimes that happens simply because they're related. The two things are related. The fact that your hunger goes down is because your body has relaxed a little bit, become a little bit less efficient, which is a good thing with its calories. And so you burn a few more calories because your body knows the food is coming in on a regular schedule. So if your schedule is all over the place, this is a good one to look at, to help with your hunger. Okay, number seven, I got this one from Dr. Eric Trexler. I hear I mentioned it all the time, I think it's an amazing hack. I've used it myself, it works really well. And that is to choose harder, more substantial foods, foods that require you to chew more and it takes longer to eat. So this could be foods that are harder in texture, right, because they take more time to chew and swallow and they help you feel more satisfied. And that could literally be you know, instead of having ground beef, having sirloin that's maybe a little bit tough. Now, I'm not saying you know, badly cook your steak or cook it medium or anything like that, oh, I'm gonna trigger a lot of people with this comment. They can no more than medium rare for me, I'm sorry. But
Philip Pape 30:39
if you want a little bit, you hear a little bit harder. That's, that's what I mean. Now think about crunchy vegetables that just take a long time to chew. And there's almost no calories. Think about whole fruits. Okay, this is this is a reason not to put your fruits in a smoothie. Don't make a protein shake with fruit stirring fat loss, just have the protein powder with like water, almond milk or something, and then keep the fruit hole and eat it. That will actually help with hunger. All right, lean proteins, whole grains, all of that like whole grains, brown rice versus white rice. It's not just the extra fiber and the lower calories. But the extra to ability that tricks your brain and your stomach legitimately and physiologically tricks them via hormones to think that you're eating more food because there's more volume, they they require more effort to eat, they slow down the eating pace, they give your body time to register fullness. And I believe there's an aspect to your saliva as well. All the chewing, and the generation of saliva is also connected to this system of telling you you're eating something that's substantial, and therefore, you don't need to eat as much. So I think that's a really good one harder foods. Okay. Number eight is sleep. Okay, I forgot that I had this on the list. Okay, I did this, all this because I was telling you earlier, it's like, oh, here's an extra hack. Now it's actually on the list. And we already talked about it. So I'm not going to rehash all of it. But just in summary, not getting enough sleep will make you hungrier and will increase your cravings for a high calorie dense food. Because your body is making up for the lack of sleep. That's it. So prioritize your sleep for hunger. And then number nine, another one you might not expect is to practice positive reframing. If we can view hunger, since we know it happens, we know it happens. It's a sign that your body is responding to fat loss. So instead of you and hunger as a negative, you reframe it as a positive sign these your diet is working, you say, Okay, I noticed I'm hungry. That means I'm losing fat. Great. All right. When you feel hungry, you remind yourself, this is a normal part of the fat loss process, my body's responding to the calorie deficit. And I want to keep doing what I'm doing. And I've seen clients who check in with me and they're deep into a fat loss phase. And like, you know, I'm hungry most of the time now, because, you know, they're they're deep in right there almost at the end. But I'm also making so much progress that I, I accept it, like it's fine. It doesn't even take much discipline or willpower. I just know that the hunger I've experienced over the last 12 weeks has also correlated with the fat loss I've been going after, therefore, it's a positive thing. Okay, so that's it. That's number nine. So as mentioned before, these nine hacks are part of a larger list of 20 Hunger hacks that you'll find in my free hunger hacks guide. The guide includes 11 additional strategies for managing hunger during fat loss along with these nine, and the link to download the guide is in the show notes. Or you can go to wits & weights.com/free, to grab your copy. Alright, managing hunger during fat loss. It's a skill, it's a skill, like many of the other things we talked about, on this show, were all about learning knowledge, tools, skills, developing the expertise for long term sustainable success. And if you understand the science behind hunger, if you understand what it takes to just move the needle a little bit, you can make this whole calorie deficit thing a lot more bearable, right, because it's not supposed to be fun, but we want to be able to live life enjoy life and have the calorie deficit and get through it. Okay? The key to all of this is always finding what works best for you and your lifestyle. So, experiment with the different hacks, see which ones work for you. Reach out to me and let me know. Okay. And keep in mind that with everything we talked about, consistency is number one, and patience is right there as a close second. Because sometimes, you know, you might lack a little of one or the other. We need both. There'll be ups and downs along the way, always. And we want to celebrate the progress along the way, including the fact that hunger means we are losing fat, so that we don't get discouraged. Because if if you get hungry, and you get discouraged, like oh, no, I'm hungry, something's wrong. That's gonna set you back versus you know, hey, this is what's supposed to happen. And then you can achieve your fat loss, you can improve your health, improve your well being all the things we want to do. Alright, so again, if you want my full guide for hunger hacks, just click the link in my show notes or go to wits. & weights.com/free. And in our next app, Episode 159 Very exciting. Steve Hall is on the episode is called change how you train hard for ever with natural bodybuilders Steve Hall, you will learn what it really means to train hard. What exactly do we mean by that and how to effectively apply scientific research to your own training. We'll get into the nuances of principles like our IR, which is called reps and reps and reserve, proximity to failure and minimum effective volume MeV, and how these concepts relate to muscle growth. We'll discuss how to bridge the gap between research and practice based on your individual response to optimize your games while minimizing injury. As always, my friends stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 157: Bill Campbell on Aggressive Dieting, Dirty Bulking, and Keto Effects on Muscle Building
What practical tips can you implement to lose fat as quickly as possible? How does a keto diet impact muscle-building? Dr. Bill Campbell is back on the show to revisit the latest in rapid fat loss. We discuss progressive vs. aggressive calorie deficits when optimal bulking becomes dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle-building, and a new study that Bill's research lab is currently planning.
What practical tips can you implement to lose fat as quickly as possible? How does a keto diet impact muscle-building?
Dr. Bill Campbell, director of the Performance & Physique Enhancement lab at USF, is back on the show today. He was on the show in episode 92, where they discussed the latest findings on improving body composition through food selection, fat loss, training, diet breaks, and more. Philip (@witsandweights) invited him back to revisit the latest in rapid fat loss, including the findings from the Wits & Weights Shredtober challenge from 2023 that followed a protocol inspired by his research.
In this episode, they discuss progressive vs. aggressive calorie deficits when optimal bulking becomes dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle-building, and a new study that Bill's research lab is currently planning.
In addition to his academic work, Bill publishes the Body by Science monthly research review, which has now published 20 issues. In that review, you'll find a summary of the two studies discussed today and real-world guidance from two industry experts.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:29 Bill's thoughts on the experiment based on his protocol
8:20 The effectiveness of the protocol and cautionary approach to aggressive dieting
11:58 Optimal training program for rapid fat loss
17:03 No resistance training for the most aggressive plan
21:43 New research study on menopause and rapid fat loss
25:18 Exclusion criteria for the new research and the purpose of walking
28:22 Measuring metabolic rate and other considerations for the study
32:43 Progressive vs. aggressive caloric deficits and how to start
40:56 Dirty bulking (Issue 18, Study 1)
44:35 Muscle vs. fat gain limits
51:15 Anti-anabolic effects of keto (Issue 18, Study 2)
55:15 Outro
Episode resources:
IG - @billcampbellphd
'Body by Science' Research Review - billcampbellphd.com
Philip’s Rapid Fat Loss Guide with the micro-cut protocol inspired by Dr. Bill Campbell
Ep 92: Physique Enhancement, Rapid Fat Loss, Plateaus, and Processed Foods with Bill Campbell, PhD
In the latest episode of the podcast, we had the pleasure of welcoming Dr. Bill Campbell, an esteemed researcher in the realm of physique enhancement and performance. The central theme of our discussion was the intricate balance between losing fat and preserving muscle mass—a subject that resonates deeply with fitness enthusiasts and those on a journey to transform their physique. Dr. Campbell, from the University of South Florida's performance and physique enhancement lab, brought forth a wealth of knowledge on this topic, highlighting the Wits & Weights Shredtober (Oct 2023) Challenge.
The challenge, based on Dr. Campbell's research, aimed at aggressive fat loss while maintaining muscle mass, served as a practical case study for the discussion. Participants adhered to a carefully designed protocol that involved short periods of calorie deficits interspersed with refeed days. The outcomes of the challenge underscored the importance of maintaining a high protein intake and integrating resistance training into one's regimen to sustain muscle mass during periods of calorie restriction.
The podcast delved into the nuances of different dieting strategies, including the distinctions between progressive and aggressive calorie deficits. Dr. Campbell emphasized that while an initial aggressive approach might harness the motivation during the early stages of weight loss, a more nuanced, long-term strategy is vital for sustainable fat loss and overall health. Moreover, the conversation also covered the potential pitfalls and misconceptions surrounding the ketogenic diet in the context of muscle building.
As we ventured deeper into the science, Dr. Campbell shared insights from upcoming studies from his lab that promise to shed more light on optimizing body composition. The discussion explored the asymmetry between the processes of bulking and cutting, illustrating that a caloric surplus, beyond a certain threshold, leads predominantly to fat gain rather than additional muscle mass. This is crucial information for those planning their dieting phases and aiming for lean gains.
Wrapping up the episode, Dr. Campbell reflected on the role of individual preferences and psychological impacts when choosing a dieting approach. The take-home message was that there is no one-size-fits-all strategy; what works for one person may not work for another. Understanding this can help tailor a plan that aligns with personal goals, lifestyle, and dietary inclinations, thereby ensuring a higher success rate in one's fitness journey.
This podcast episode not only provides a rich source of information for fitness enthusiasts but also emphasizes the significance of blending intellectual understanding with practical application. For those eager to up their fitness game, the episode offers a comprehensive look at the art and science behind effective fat loss and muscle retention strategies. Follow Dr. Campbell's groundbreaking research and share this knowledge with peers in the fitness community as we all strive for excellence in our health and fitness pursuits.
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Transcript
Bill Campbell PhD 00:00
If you'd want to be aggressive and can be very aggressive for a short period of time, the evidence that I read would suggest that it's almost all positive in terms of body composition, meaning fat is lost, and muscle is retained.
Philip Pape 00:17
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. Back on the show today is Dr. Bill Campbell, director of the performance and physique enhancement lab at USF. And he was on the show back in episode 92, where we discussed all of his findings on improving body composition through food selection, fat loss, training, diet breaks, you name it, and I invited him back on the show to revisit the latest in rapid fat loss, a very hot topic we'd love to talk about, including the practical findings from the challenge that we ran the Wits & Weights shred Tober challenge back in 2023, where we follow the protocol inspired by his research. So we'll discuss some other topics from his body by Science Review, like progressive versus aggressive calorie deficits. When does optimal bulking become dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle building, and a new study that bill's Research Lab is currently planning I don't even know what it is. So it's gonna be a surprise to me when we get to that. I didn't ask ahead of time because I wanted to be surprised. So stick around to the end of the conversation if you want to find out more about that, in addition to his academic work, Bill publishes the body by science monthly Research Review. I think you're at 20 issues now and counting, right? Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah, 20. And I've read every single one. And they cover a lot of topics, a few of which we are going to talk about here. In that review, you don't just get the studies in their limitations, but also guidance from two experts in the industry related to that study, and that you can apply to your life. Dr. Campbell has also started holding some live trainings for subscribers, including recent ones that I've enjoyed on anti obesity, drugs, energy balance, and fat loss. So Bill, welcome back to the show. Yes, happy
Bill Campbell PhD 02:27
to be back.
Philip Pape 02:28
All right. So we want to start with rapid fat loss, everyone's favorite topic. And we can definitely get to your latest research and latest findings. But if you don't mind, we'll set the context with the personal experiment that I ran, we had members of the community run it out of 12 people who signed up seven got through it, which is pretty good. And I sent you a white paper and you were gracious enough to take a look and review and give me some feedback. So for the listener, just real high level summary of what it was, it was a 14 day protocol, four days in a 45% deficit. One refeed we brought the carbs back up. So the calories equated the maintenance calories, then four days in a deficit one day refeed four days in a deficit. So pretty straightforward. Target macros were a gram per pound of body weight for protein, around 25% for fat of from calories of vary by person. And the remainder for carbs, we tracked a bunch of details, I personally lost about 3.6 pounds of fat, and minimal muscle, you know, as best as I could measure that. And then the average for volunteers was three pounds scale weigh one and a half inch on the waist, and expenditure dropped by maybe 100 to 200 calories. A lot of people really liked the simplicity of the diet and how short it was, despite it being aggressive. So the conclusion that I had was it was effective to quickly shed fat while preserving muscle and kind of psychologically get through it. But I did identify some other limitations like would higher protein have helped? Would more satiating foods help would more, you know, properly using the refeeds and sleep and all this other stuff? Okay. So that's the context for the study bill. I'll stop talking and ask you like what are your overall thoughts? We can get into any surprises that you saw? Maybe maybe not. Whether you thought it was successful, and then we can talk about some of the details of the protocol. Yeah, my
Bill Campbell PhD 04:22
first thought was I love that you actually took the the idea and then implemented it because we don't have much research on this. I think last time we talked, I did a rapid fat loss study that was a 14 day study. And then I reviewed an extreme fat loss or rapid fat loss study in my research review that was only like four days or seven days happening I want to look at it. So I'm very appreciative of people like you that know physiology that you you kind of like you map that out as your own personal experiment. I remember you sending me like the methods and everything I'm like, This is great. So loved, loved the fact that this was a Yeah, it wasn't something that you're going to publish. But it was an experiment. So that's when I, you can feel a lot better about okay, well, now we have actual data. And then I guess you were able to recruit some highly motivated people to unzip the first just the fact that you could execute on it and get other people. I applaud you for that. And then the, that my, my impressions after looking at the white paper that you wrote, was, it was, I guess I was, I don't know about happy, but I was like, Okay, this is good. This is what I would expect. And what I would expect was, since it was short, well, days of a pretty aggressive diet out of 14, almost all of the weight loss appeared to be from body fat stores. So that's exactly what we want. And I don't know how much we got into this last time, but I used to my former opinion was avoid this type of dieting. And now I have to kind of kind of contextualize that, and I say, you should avoid this aggressive dieting for extended periods of time. So that's the caveat, because there's too much research now. And even in application like you and your group, if you'd want to be aggressive, and can be very aggressive for a short period of time, the evidence that I read would suggest that it's almost all positive, in terms of body composition, meaning, fat is lost, and muscle is retained. So those are my general thoughts.
Philip Pape 06:29
Ya know, it's, it's one of the biggest surprises from individuals running it was they were worried that it would be just disastrous, like, you know, from from a mental standpoint, or you wouldn't be able to, quote unquote, stick with it. But because of the high protein, you know, they were fairly full early on, it wasn't a big deal. The refeeds created these nice little moments of relief, and then it was short. So that's the key now, when people reach out and they say, How much weight can I lose on that? I say, you're gonna lose exactly the amount of weight that the deficit suggests you're gonna lose, like, that's my answer. Do you agree with that? Like, is there any, there's no magic to this? Or is there any tweak you would make like, even higher protein, you know, one and a half grams per pound or something to induce any better outcome of this diet?
Bill Campbell PhD 07:14
Now, my only consideration would be and I don't know how the the group of people that you got to follow it. If are they typically eating pretty high protein, I know, a general what I call general population person, they may struggle getting that much protein. So I would have a little concern that it might be too much. Now I'm always the more the better one dieting, that is my philosophy. And it's particularly with this when you're reducing calories, by nearly 50%. We want almost all those calories to come from protein. But bodybuilders wouldn't struggle with that they're used to that. But I've found that people that are relatively more new that don't appreciate what protein does in terms of its benefits for fat loss for for muscle gain. And like you said, it helps control hunger. It's just a big ask to ask somebody to get that much protein. But in this case, well, let me ask you, did any of your participants have any problems? And where would you rank them in terms of they're pretty experienced dieters? They've been resistance training for a while, how would you describe?
Philip Pape 08:20
Yeah, I naturally biased the study, to join the study, as you have to already be lifting and tracking your food. So it filtered that out, I did have a few closer to newbies who were just, you know, very committed and made it happen. And then when I took the results, you know, some people did drop out. So we were left with the seven who stuck through it. And I separated it into an HIE adherents like a full adherence and not full adherence, and the full adherence group was 98.7%. On their protein, the all group was still 96%. So that close close enough, you know, very close. Yeah, close enough. So that's what I found. But I agree, like the big caveat, whenever I bring this up is this is not a crash diet. This isn't just somebody who's like, I got to lose weight. I've never done any of this stuff before. Give me your protocol. Let me run it like that. To me. That's a dangerous approach. It's an advanced approach. Sounds like you agree. right with that? Yes,
Bill Campbell PhD 09:12
yeah. And the thing is, when you have I don't want to call them normal people who aren't fit. And when they try this, they don't they don't know. And they don't care about protein. They don't care about doing any type of exercise. So they're, they're really setting themselves up for ultimately having more body fat on their body because you have to maintain your muscle that's that's the key. So in the wrong hands, this strategy is is foolish and more harmful than good. In the right hands or with the right education and mindset. It's, it can be helpful and two things on that note, one, I like the idea of being really aggressive at the start of a diet, because that's when everybody's most motivated after you've been doing this for, you know, 14 days, you're kind of probably somewhat beat down and to ask somebody to continue is a big ask. So I like to use the language of let's leverage your high motivation to diet more aggressively in the first week or two. And we can get a bigger body composition, success in terms of losing body fat. The other thing is, when I've since I've been into this research literature, there's multiple studies that show that it actually is a better outcome. And most of this literature's in people with obesity. But if they have early Fat Loss Success, and let's, let's just define that as the more aggressive, they are early, the greater the long term weight loss is, and that's what we're trying to do, trying to get long term weight loss. And along with that, this is where the health benefits come in. If somebody is overweight, and starting this, and in an in tries this very aggressive approach, well, then we have all kinds of health markers, like triglycerides, or lipid panels, metabolic health, fasting, it's like all those other benefits, according to the evidence are also happening along with fat loss. Yeah,
Philip Pape 11:10
for sure. I love that approach. And I would add to that someone who has excessive weight to lose, will probably experience some body recomp, potentially, even when they're dieting, because they have the brand new muscle stimulus from training that they're just starting. That's one benefit. The other thing with the aggressive start is your metabolism is at its highest because it hasn't gone through the adaptations. It's about to experience through your dieting phase. So why would you take like the inverse approach and go take it easy. And then later on, try to grow go more aggressive, and the calories are even lower? You know, I just started my whole fat loss phase this week. You know what I mean? That first, that first week, you always have where it's just this major change. And, you know, the lack of energies is showing, but I have a lot of calories to work with. So I'm taking advantage of a huge deficit early. I think it's a good approach. Yeah. Okay. Training, we didn't get into the nuances of it last time, based on the study so far, or your current work? Is there like an optimal type of program you would put someone through during a rapid fat loss phase? Or is it more of the principles of Hazon? As a progressive overload? And the tensions there the stimulus? You're fine? Yeah. Tell me your thoughts on that.
Bill Campbell PhD 12:18
Yeah. So I've been actually I've been thinking about this a lot. And later on, I can tell you about some some research that we're planning. And as I look at this, this, let's just call it the concept of rapid fat loss or aggressive fat loss. I'm trying to think through different dieting lengths, and what each length would need to have in it. So on one hand, let's just say the shortest amount of time would be seven days. So there's, I have in my head, nothing on paper yet, but a seven day plan, then a 14 day plan, which is what kind of what you did. And then I would say there's also a 28 day plan. So the longer in longer the wolf and let me also say, if the the philosophy that one has to embrace, if you're going to do this is you are prioritizing fat loss. This is the, let's not pretend you're gonna gain muscle you're not. Let's also appreciate that, by doing this, you could lose some lean tissue. Hopefully not we're gonna try to do everything we can to maintain it. But that we are, we are saying, you know, what, if we put effort into fat loss, then we may lose some lean tissue. And I also want to say when we lose muscle, when dieting, it's not gone forever. We get that back pretty quick when the diet when the caloric deficit is over. So that's also some people think, Oh, I'm damaged for life? No, not not, not really, just it's a short term setback. So as we look at this 714 and 28 day, the longer the intervention goes, the more and more emphasis I'm going to put on a resistance training stimulus, because that's the longer a caloric deficit lasts, and the greater the likelihood of losing lean tissue. So now let me go to the very the, the the seven day what I call the extreme approach, I wouldn't I would not even have resistance exercise in that strategy in that in that seven day plan, and I'll explain why. And again, this is all theoretical, but borrowed from a published study in males with obesity, where they put them on a four day extreme diet, it was a 320 calorie diet, all those calories came from protein, and it was four days and then three days of going back to their pre diet maintenance calories, which again is what you did for your two refeed days. And that study again, now these weren't resistance training people, but I'm gonna borrow from them for days of this 70 75% caloric deficit it was they lost all body fat loss. They didn't lose lean tissue. shoe. And even water was accounted for after the seven days of refeeding. So we keep we even have that address that you know how much of that was water, etc. And my thinking is, if we look at the two tissues, fat tissue and lean tissue, that tissue was much more responsive, acutely, lean tissue was not. So yes, those subjects didn't lose lean tissue. And that's because I think that the, the intervention wasn't long enough, if you continue eating 320 calories, you're gonna lose lean tissue. And it's almost like you with this approach, go in hard, go in aggressive and then get out. And you get the body fat, adaptive response, the loss, but it wasn't long enough to cause a downregulation, or a an actual loss of lean tissue. Now, let's forward that to kind of a model that you did a 14 day now I think that's that is a long period, now you're not going to give somebody 320 calories, you're gonna give them more calories, but still be aggressive. Now, we need to have a greater stimulus for Annaba anabolism. So that we don't lose muscle. So that may look like you know, three days per week, four days per week, whatever that is, you know, at the end, this is all theoretical. But now we're going to at least we're going to have that as part of the plan. And then also with the 28 day plan, we're also going to make sure that there's a resistance training stimulus. So in your group, did you tell people continue to doing what they were normally doing? Or how did you manipulate?
Philip Pape 16:36
Yeah, I did. I said, continue training. But if not, I think I suggested you had to you had to already be training when you started. But there were a few that were like, I want to just start training. Can I jump in? I'm like, you could try, you know, see what happens. But I suggested some very basic, like big lifts three days a week, full body type stuff, you know, just keep the intensity high, the load high, not too much volume, to manage recovery. So that's what we did. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Now, so on the most aggressive one, you said no resistance training as part of the plan? Are you recommending to abstain from the training because of recovery issues, or whatnot, or just it doesn't matter?
Bill Campbell PhD 17:13
Yeah. So in that study, again, not really, this hasn't been done in resistance training people. And I'm going to do talk about what I have planned, I'm going to do this in females, at least, that's the plan. But a seven day extreme fat loss or rapid fat loss plan would mean hey, we are doing this because we want to lose body fat, that is the overarching the primary goal. So part of this plan is, at least in the research study, that's been published eight hours per day of walking, plus 45 minutes per day of upper body, cycling exercise or abdominal exercise with your arm. So your arms are like making pedaling motion on an armored domitor. So in that case, not only are calories at 320, but the very low intensity, physical activity, the volume has very high, again, eight hours in this public study. So at some point, we wanted to target fat loss. And if I were to say even if your resistance trained, let's also do a workout where now we're not maximizing what we agreed was the primary goal, which was fat loss. Now, again, at some point, whether it's 10 days, 11 days, I'm not going to have that same philosophy, we do one and resistance training stimulus. But we're going to be so aggressive in the seven day study, or the seven day plan. And by the way, the seven day plan, it's only four days of dieting, and walking the last three days, or rest and bringing calories back up. So we recover from that. Because again, if we did that for seven days, I think, well, we're probably going to lose muscle mass, then they're going to have extreme hunger afterwards. And they're going to gain body fat back. So it's very targeted, precise on the number of days and the the lower body, the walking as the exercise is very high volume. And I think throwing in resistance exercise is not going to accomplish anything positive for the overriding goal. Interesting.
Philip Pape 19:21
Okay, yeah, that sounds very aggressive, and a lot of work. But it's short, it's extremely short. I did some quick math on my end, like, I'm probably at a higher metabolism than then an untrained person. But even if I were to dock it down a little, it would result in like 700 calories for me six or 700 calories, and I'd probably lose two and a half pounds or two, almost three pounds in those four days. Just to put the numbers in perspective. I don't know if that's similar. What you're seeing is like, pound wise, it's probably like two to four pounds, right is what we're saying. Could it be more? I guess you're heavier? Yeah.
Bill Campbell PhD 19:55
In the in the study that I'm relying on in these males with a Obesity, they lost 5% of their body weight. So if they were 200 pounds, what that's 10 pounds, okay, over this seven days, and I'm reading this, and I'm thinking, I'm always thinking ahead, yeah, but they didn't keep that weight off. They did. They measured, they went, again, after four days, they went three days later. So seven days later, they still maintain their weight than they want a month out. They they gained a little bit of that weight back, but it was still they still had maintained almost all of that weight loss. And then they even did it a year out. They said, Hey, where are these people at a year out, and they still had significant weight loss from where they started. So that's where the the health benefits of this approach, again, in the right hands with the right perspective, can be an overall health benefit by losing this excess fat, because that's another thing. We have to appreciate excess adiposity is not healthy. And we're trying to address that first and foremost. And in that study, again, lipid panel increased fasting glucose, I mean, all of the the multiple markers were significantly improved. And they were maintained. Now again, I'm thinking before I read that study, if you told me yeah, this is what people did. And then they followed up a month later, I'm like, they gained all that weight back. Sure. They didn't. And it was again, it was very targeted and precise. So that's what's guiding me. And I'm going again, I'm designing a similar study around this principle.
Philip Pape 21:29
So we're gonna keep teasing people on that. Yeah,
Bill Campbell PhD 21:33
I'm happy to talk about it. We're very close to submitting the IRB for that study. So yeah, we're working on three studies right now. So we can talk about all of them. Okay.
Philip Pape 21:43
Well, the one that you specifically tease me about that you wanted to talk about? Is that that one is a different study? No, no, it's the rapid fat loss. Okay, we could just segue into it, and then get to the other topics, so we don't jump around. Yeah. All right. So
Bill Campbell PhD 21:55
what we're doing is, so I kind of have two interests. So my first interest comes from my wife, she had a very difficult time through menopause. And my wife is somebody who's been fit her whole life exercises and attracts her macros eats high protein, and she basically hit a wall. And being married to a fat loss researcher, I would often do, you know, experiments on my wife, test her on this, to have her do this type of diet monitor this. And for the first time, in her adult life, since since we've been married, she was non responsive to a caloric deficit. And I was like, wow, this is, this is challenging me, because this shouldn't happen. So I just mentioned that because I want to start investigating and reading a lot of the research in this aging female population, it sounds horrible, my wife would say, I'm not aging, but whatever I'm gonna call it aging, the aging female population in their 40s and 50s. So having that interest, and then also the interest of just this rapid fat loss, we're going to do what's called a case series studies, which means we get a handful of women in a six 810, that we're looking at eight, and we're going to put them on a very aggressive, rapid fat loss. For seven days, what I'm going to do is have two women that are pre menopausal, we're going to have them eat, let's just say you know, a couple 100 calories, then we're going to do 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, or point seven five grams per pound. And they're gonna walk six hours per day, for four days. So very low calories, as much or almost all calories coming from protein, a six hour walking event, and we're going to do blood work, body composition, body water, metabolic rates, we're going to do all of the tests. And two women are pre menopausal to women are in menopause, meaning that you know, they're currently in the the rough spot for for some females that experience this. And then for females that are clearly postmenopausal to have those four are on HRT of some type, and two are not on any type of HRT. So just gives us an idea. Again, it's not a full blown study that's going to you got to be careful about conclusions you're going to make, but it's going to be the start of an area or a of a category of my future research interests. And I'm excited about this and I also want to make sure I give credit to my my research coordinator for this as Landon Shanahan. She's one of my masters students, and she's she's going to lead this project for me.
Philip Pape 24:43
That's awesome. Yeah, I bet there's a lot of women listening who their interests got piqued because this is a very hot area today, right Peri menopause and post menopause for women. Because of like you said, there's things that we guys can't can't directly identify or empathize with necessary earlier with the hormonal milieu, right, changing so much at that time, and 40s and 50s is kind of that timeframe. So I love how you're segmenting into all these different pieces, the 200 calories. I mean, you're almost fasting, but you're it's protein. It's all protein, like you said. So point seven five grams per pound. And do you care about the starting weight being in a certain range for your subjects? Yes. So
Bill Campbell PhD 25:24
what we have so far as my team and I are discussing this, they have to be resistance trained. So people that currently exercise, we will put a an exclusion criteria if they're too lean, because there's no fat to no body fat to lose in that case. So probably the only exclusion criteria would be if you know, if they're like stage a lean to start, and I'm just going to predict those will be a lot of the females that would want to do the study.
Philip Pape 25:56
To nine or something like, yeah, exactly. Oh, man. And then the six hours of walking, what does that look like? Is this controlled on a treadmill? No,
Bill Campbell PhD 26:04
it could be depending on the weather. So we're starting with the idea that we're going to do this on campus, so any female would have to live in the Tampa area. And ideally, I mean, it could be outdoors, or it could be on an indoor track, or it could even be on a on a treadmill. And what we want is I don't I hate overcomplicating things. I like things to be practical. So we're going to the instructions are you walk at a comfortable pace? So we don't want them hurrying. We don't want them barely moving, just hey, how would you normally walk? And we're going to have we're going to also do heartrate monitor pedometer. So we're going to get data on this. But I would like if this seems like it would be helpful to recommend to certain people, I just want them to say, Okay, I've got a walk for six hours. Now, does that have to be consecutive? I don't know, just over the 24 hours, a, a six, yes, six hour cumulative, intentional walk. So we're not counting like I need to go to the grocery store. No purposeful walking. And I imagine if I were going to which I am going to do this, I'm going to pilot this. I would imagine like I would probably do it in two hour segments. So two hours in the morning, another two hours right before lunch, and then two hours in late afternoon, if I would get if I had to guess and remember the male study, they did eight hours of this. That's a plus 45 minutes of arm ergometry exercise. So
Philip Pape 27:31
yeah, I'd have to have a lot of podcasts and Netflix and everything ready to go my standing desk.
27:35
Yeah. My name is Tony from a strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil and his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that. And he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. And one of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talked with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him and help you out. Thanks.
Philip Pape 28:23
So Okay, a couple other questions come to mind. And one is, do you do a pre diet phase to measure their metabolic rate accurately.
Bill Campbell PhD 28:29
So we're going to have them track their calories for I think up to two weeks prior, also track their body weight so we can estimate what their maintenance calories are. And then we also will measure their metabolic rate. So what yeah, we'll have all that data. Now the reality is, that's good data to have, but because we're saying, we just want you to get 1.6 grams per kg of protein, and as little other additional fat and carbs. So what you know, sometimes something comes along with protein. It's not we're not looking at as much of a caloric deficit. This is a what most people would call a what a protein sparing modified fast. Yep. Yeah. So that's, that's essentially what it is. And we're getting we haven't submitted this yet. So we're still I'm glad that you're glad you're asking questions because I didn't even think of the cumulative or does it have to be all at one time? Or can they split it up? Like that's that's something I just had in my mind but when you're doing research you need to we need to put that stuff out there.
Philip Pape 29:31
Yeah, cuz I my head is it's kind of like when you first learn to train and you learn plate math, and it's just in your head all the time. You know, I have like expenditure math in my head all the time because I think I know you and a lot of the research talks in terms of like percent deficits and stuff like that. And I think in terms of like, percent rate per week, so it's more relative to your your expenditure and your body weight and and so when I hear like the term like when you said a non responsive to a calorie debt For sit right, I challenge that language a little bit. And you know, I did that by email to you with linear live trainings. Because to me if if you actually are in the calorie deficit, it will work. It's just that what you're saying is the attempt to be in a deficit resulted in you not being in a deficit?
Bill Campbell PhD 30:16
Yes. Or it become so untenable for a let's just say, for a female? Yeah, let's go to 600 calories. Good. There you go. Right. Exactly. It's not really what you know, nobody wants to nobody wants to do that. Yeah. Nobody wants to nobody wants to wreck Well, I don't want to recommend that. But yes, I mean, in theory in and maybe not even in theory, maybe in reality, hey, that's what if you want to lose fat, you're struggling, that's what you need to do? Or is there other things in play? And again, I'm, I'm admitting, I have a lot to learn in that population. But man, I'm telling you soon as my semester is over may 7, amen. I'm already getting the stack of articles that I'm going to pour through this summer.
Philip Pape 30:57
That's going to be awesome. Yeah, no, and coaches like us who work with those women feel free to reach out because when, you know, I see the strangest things, you know, I call it strange. It's just that there's some other variable at play. And it could be, you know, thyroid function and hormone imbalances. It could be the change in their behavior with life stress, and everything else, you know, there's a million things that come into play. And it sounds like what you're doing with this study is, you're like, let's just shoot way down under that threshold with the 200 calories, just just really drop it and see if that responsiveness occurs. And if it differs based on your menopausal status, which sounds like what you're trying to get out here. And that's pretty cool.
Bill Campbell PhD 31:32
Yeah, and maybe we recruit women, the two women in in menopause that are Peri menopausal, like, Hey, you, we want to recruit women who are not responsive. So let Yeah, like you're saying like, you're, you're telling me you can't? What if we have to be this extreme? Okay, yeah, well, I lost fat. But yeah, but you lost a lot less fat than the two women that are, you know, early 40s that are pre menopausal, or, or maybe, maybe they lose just as much fat. And then that's an that's a narrative that a lot of people don't want to hear like, Okay. When, when it's very well controlled. That was that was lost. So that that's a potential here, but I'm just excited to learn and then to, you know, to obviously publish this and share it. Yeah,
Philip Pape 32:19
no, I am as well. Is there anything else you want to say about that? Because I think you gave us a lot of the details. Yeah,
Bill Campbell PhD 32:24
I think that that's the extent of where we're at. And again, hopefully submitting that soon. So we can start collecting data in April.
Philip Pape 32:32
Nice. Okay. Yeah. Well look out for that, for sure. And I'm sure eventually will be in your body by science in some way. Get your? Yeah. Okay, so we have some other kind of related topics here. The next one is from your issue 12, study one. And he was on the progressive versus aggressive, slash consistent calorie deficit. The title for folks listening is efficacy of progressive versus severe energy restriction on body composition and strength in concurrent trained women, Vargas Molina at all from last year 2023. And just to summarize, the study, compared to strategies for restricting calories, right over eight weeks. And to clarify, because it gets confusing, constant aggressive, my understanding is, the intake was 25 calories per kilogram of fat free mass. So that's what it gets confusing people listening, because we don't usually think in terms of relative to fat free mass, right? Yep. So 25 calories, the progressive moderate, started higher at 40 calories per kilogram fat free mass, and then progressively dropped to 25. Both groups consumed a similar number of calories. But I know there's a caveat, because the progressive group didn't reduce their calories as much by the end of the study. And then they both lost similar amounts of body fat and lean mass and no differences in strength. What I find interesting before I even ask, the question is it seems the opposite of what you're talking about earlier? Starting more aggressive, right? Yes. 30? Yeah, less aggressive and getting more aggressive. So tell us about that study. And then maybe even like, is there a scenario that fits this? What are your thoughts on that? Yes. And
Bill Campbell PhD 34:09
I think there is a scenario that fits us and it is exactly the opposite of what where I believe is the ideal again, somebody says, I want to I want to lose body fat. Then I'm going to say, Okay, again, this pretending I'm putting my coach hat on here for a moment. You want to lose body weight. So you're motivated, how motivated are you? i Let me suggest that we be more aggressive, or as aggressive as you're willing to be this first week or two, because your body's going to be most responsive, and let's take advantage of your motivation. This study did the opposite, so to speak, it said, let's start. Very, very, you know, just let's just dip our toe into the water, have a very limited caloric deficit and then make it greater and greater and greater. As time goes on, and And what I've come to learn is, even though I'm gravitating towards this, let's punch you in the mouth, figuratively speaking, that's get into a deficit and, you know, and then and then come out of it. Wow, that's appealing to me. Some people do want no part of that. They would much rather let me start slowly. Okay, this is not ruining my life. Let's go a little bit more. So, the one thing I love about this study was, it provides an option and some evidence that it's just as effective as a, you know, let's just go on a diet and stay there. Or you can ease into it. And again, borrowing from other research where I like being more aggressive early. So it's all about the coach client relationship, and getting to know your client and what they prefer. That was my big takeaway from from that study, for
Philip Pape 35:51
sure. So it's interesting, you mentioned that some people would prefer that, to get their feet wet, I wonder, I wonder if we identify the buckets that those people fall into. And where I'm going with that is, like, when I work with a client, they want fat loss, we don't do it from day one, right? We spend some time pre diet to get everything in order, their training, the protein, their habits, get all the mental demons is out as, as much as possible, create that positive self identity, right. And then we go after it, in which case, the aggressiveness maybe is more palatable, versus somebody who's just like, I've never done this before. I'm just gonna jump in that that's kind of one bucket. But I suspect there is another bucket, like you said, that's different than you and me that just naturally in any scenario wants to take it slowly first and see if it's working. Do you agree? Or like, is there anything else I'm missing? Yeah, no, I,
Bill Campbell PhD 36:41
and I'll speak with confidence. I know, there's people that want to do the slower initial because I communicate with them. Like, I have a lot of conversations with people. It's kind of how I keep myself informed for research. There are there are people most of these happen to be women that I communicate with, like, yeah, I want to start slow, and then get, you know, kind of into this mindset. And if I had to, if you were going to tell me tomorrow, I have to cut my calories in half, like I would, it would just give me a ton of anxiety. But if it's only 10%. Now, again, I don't think that's personally I would never want to do that. But I I'm not a psychologist, but I I know enough. What you're motivated to do, you're going to do best. So what that's why I have to ask you these questions. And then we're going to come up with a plan that you will most adhere to, for you to get the most success. So yeah, that study was it is not how I would design a weight loss
Philip Pape 37:37
program. Right, right. And I totally understand what you mean, because I'll usually map it out on a graph visually for someone and say, Look, here are the three kind of glide paths that you get based on the aggressiveness. So you could make the trade off, you know, if you're psychologically you want to take it slow, just know it's going to take longer, right, just by definition, it's going to take longer, maybe like you said in this study, you actually ramp up the aggressiveness. And that's kind of a way to shorten the duration. What about the phenomenon in here where the progressive group didn't quite get to the level that was intended with the calories? Is that a big deal? Because it didn't seem like a big difference? But what do you do you know what I mean? Yeah, and
Bill Campbell PhD 38:19
this is where I'm speaking outside my, my expertise, I'm thinking, to, you're already dieting, and it's a lot of people struggle with just reduced calories. And then you look ahead, Oh, I gotta do some more next week and more next week. It's like, Where's the light? There is no light with that hurts not, it's not way into the future. So that could have been, hey, this approach does does, you know, it's, it has a limitation. And that's one of them. Which, by the way, let me just turn this around, when you start aggressive, and I mean, real aggressive, kind of like what we've been talking about so far. And then like, the next week, you're going to increase the calories. So you're doing the opposite of what this study did. You're like, Oh, I get all these extra calories. But it's still it's still it. Depending on the you know, the outlay of the diet, it could be a pretty, still could be a pretty large caloric deficit, but your perception is compared to what I just did last week. And I will whatever that psychology is. I love that, like I'm looking forward to these greater calories.
Philip Pape 39:22
Yeah, yeah, same thing. Same thing with refeeds. And diet breaks. I mean, your client says, Look, I'm going on vacation. I'm going on a cruise, should I and I'm like, let's stop right there. Chances are, Plan A is just, you don't even need to track you could if you want it's fine, but just just go back to maintenance. You're all you're gonna do is suspend it for a week and you're gonna have a blast on your cruise. Like, that's the goal of life. Enjoy your life.
Bill Campbell PhD 39:44
Since you mentioned cruises just when I was younger, many years ago, I used to be a personal trainer, and I did this full time. And there were an I used to work in country clubs where a lot of people will go on cruises, and I'll never forget A lot of these are more than a few times these people that I knew they would they would do a lot of the the aggressive chronic dieting to get in shape for their cruise. Oh, when they came back, it was more than one time, it was a significant amount of weight gain. So they did everything wrong. They starve themselves. And then we're on an environment where they had unlimited access to food, and probably not a lot of physical activity. So anyway, whenever, whenever somebody and you've mentioned, hey, I'm going on a cruise and diet, I'm like, Okay, let me
Philip Pape 40:40
Yeah, no, no, no, not at all. We might even like gradually get them up toward maintenance before the cruise just so they get used to being there. And it's not this binge fest. Yes. Okay, so yeah, let's, let's go to the next topic, because I'm really excited about this. A few questions came up in my head recently that I wanted to ask you, this is about dirty bulking. Okay. Issue 18. Study one. And this is about like, what's the limit for optimizing muscle gain versus fat gain. But a lot of talk about this recently, I've talked about the helms study that that we're, we're dealing with here as well, Eric Trexler, and others have been on podcasts constantly talking about it, as as I'm sure you have. So the study is, quote, effective small and large energy surpluses on strength, muscle and skinfold thicknesses in resistance train individuals, a parallel groups design. And they compare 1020 and 30%. surpluses above maintenance for building muscle and gaining strength. So both both measures, and they found that basically the 10% seem to be optimal, beyond which you gain more fat, and no more muscle beyond that. And it agrees kind of with the, if you put it in percent rate terms, like point two to point 3% body weight a week is roughly that same thing? That's generally I think, yeah, yeah. So you know, people use different terms like clean bulk, lean gain, dirty bulk, whatnot, I definitely want to ask you just about the general recommendation if people haven't heard this before, and then the pros and cons of for different goals. But then I want to get into some other questions. So what are your thoughts in general, like 10%? Do we think this is a very definitive finding here and agrees with all the other evidence so far? Yeah, my
Bill Campbell PhD 42:20
general interpretation of all the research would would, would be that that number 10%. Now real quick, that's not based on a lot of studies, but based on the studies that we have, as soon as you go above a 10% caloric surplus, so that's eating 10% more calories than you currently do, where you're maintaining your weight. What that study reported, and a few others that are, again, we're talking a handful of studies, what happens is after 10%, you're maximizing the your body's ability to maintain to increase lean mass. And above 10%, that's kept you're not building on more muscle. But any additional weight gain is now body fat. So anything above 10% is no more benefit to lean mass, muscle hypertrophy. And piling on which I can use those terms because we, that's what the other research would say, piling on excess body fat. And that 10% seems to be the the range. And let me also say this that study, a lot of people misinterpret that because even the abstract said, we put people on a 5% a 10% and a 15%. Surplus. That's not what they did. That's what they prescribed. But what the subjects did, approximately, and was what you said it was approximately 10% 20% and 30%. It was like, it was like 7% 18 and 28%. I'm just gonna say 1020 30 to make it easy. But a lot of people were like, they look at what they was prescribed, and they're like, whoa, 15% No, no, it wasn't, it was 30. It was almost 30%. So when you read that study, if anybody's going to read it, look, don't look at what the researchers prescribed, look at what the subjects actually ate, what their actual caloric intake was reported as. And I
Philip Pape 44:14
wonder if that was just a consequence of you're given a target you're trying to book. So you're gonna go a little bit over that target on a regular basis? Because that's the way I think when I'm talking I don't want to be under you know,
Bill Campbell PhD 44:24
yeah. So you might as well might as well go all in. So,
Philip Pape 44:28
yeah. Okay, so a few things come to mind what one thing people get confused about is, there's this asymmetry between losing and gaining, where when you lose if you're training, right, what the goal here is to maintain like 99% of your muscle mass and lose predominantly fat, right? So it's like, let's say even if you're not that successful, 95 to five ratio of fat to muscle loss when you lose, but when you gain there's this limit of you know, you're like in the 5050 range or the one to three, you know, two to three range of whatever, depending on your training age. And so you can't just like, from what I've seen, I don't know if you agree or not, the 3500 Calorie rule applies to fat loss very easily. But not there's, it doesn't apply mathematically to muscle gain, it seems you have to go lower than that, like more conservative to gain are like, Have you explored that topic or talked about it much?
Bill Campbell PhD 45:22
Well, yeah, I've I know that math. So a pound of fat is equivalent to 3500 calories. A pound of muscle, lean, lean mass is like 550 calories. So if somebody were to say, hey, 3500 calories, I'm going to gain a pound of muscle. No, I mean, if you were going to convert all of that to muscle, you would gain six pounds about you know, approximately six pounds of muscle. But as we all know, the body is slow to build muscle. So if you're going to overeat 3500 calories, say a week, you can you can rest assured that that's not going to lean tissue accretion. Yeah.
Philip Pape 46:03
And that's, that's a great way to put it, the ratio that you just said of like the 550 to 4100 of the total, right, when you add muscle and fat, is what roughly would you'd gain, of course, again, depends on your individual response as well. The second thing about this is there's this adage, right, mass moves mass, and there's there's truth there. I sent you a message earlier on an Instagram I think like that was going to bring this up, but I don't know if you saw, but it's okay. The concept is that you know, mass moves mass, the heavier we get, the more we can push our maximum strength, even if all we're gaining is fat, and a lot of people think well, if I just dirty bulk, if I go all in and just a 30% surplus, my lifts are going up, I deadlift, my squat, everything's going up. I've got to be building extra muscle tissue to support that right? And the answer still seems to be no, in which case, not why not. But why are the lifts continuing to go up? Because this study did show a benefit for maximal strength? In the quote unquote dirty bulking group?
Bill Campbell PhD 47:03
Yes. On an absolute basis. Yeah.
Philip Pape 47:07
Absolute exact not relative. And that's that's key, which then there's something at play, I believe it has to do a cross sectional area and leverages and things like that. Do you know, like the subtleties behind why the maximal strength continues going up with weight,
Bill Campbell PhD 47:22
not enough to say, I'm sure some, some biomechanics would say I'm all wrong, but But I will say I'll, my knowledge is what you said, the more maths you have, the more maths you're going to be able to to move. And the other thing is, when we look at all of the overfeeding studies, when they overfeed subjects by 1000 calories a day, or 500 calories a day, for weeks on end, they gain significant amounts of body weight, and some of that is lean tissue. So there's people aren't gaining pure body fat, they are gaining lean tissue even without lifting. So I'm not if somebody is a larger person, or they gain weight, they are going to gain some lean tissue and they will be stronger. And some of that is maybe because of the lean tissue they gain. But other things that like what we were saying earlier is they have more mass, they're going to be able to exert a greater force on an external object, because they have our larger mass. Yeah,
Philip Pape 48:18
and if we take it to the extreme sumo wrestlers, right, we know that they're they have tons of muscle mass. It's this, I guess, the old school powerlifting thought of why don't I just gain 150 pounds and get the not the relative strength, increased body weight, but just the absolute strength? And then when I cut, I'm gonna have way more muscle than somebody who did it the sort of, you know, the 10% surplus way, but I don't think it computes that way. Right? Is that, is that correct? Or is there a benefit to that?
Bill Campbell PhD 48:47
Yeah. I don't know the rules of powerlifting. But I believe there's it's always a relative strength, like they convert it to a Wilk score. But I'd have to, I'd have to text my buddy Leigh Norton,
Philip Pape 48:59
every hour, get them on the show. Okay, a couple more questions, then let's go the other direction. Lean gaming, everybody loves the idea of Lean gaining, maintain main gaining gained teeny, right? All the buzzwords of, okay, instead of the 10% surplus, I'm gonna go with the 5%. Or I'm gonna go a 2%. You know, just above that maintenance. Which, you know, my take on that as always, okay, if you want to spend years and years building muscle, you could do that. Is there a disadvantage from a relative from a relative standpoint in doing that? Or is it just a time? Like, you're just dilating the amount of time? Do you know what I'm saying?
Bill Campbell PhD 49:32
Yeah, I agree with you. 2%. I mean, that's not even outside the the rounding errors of the rice that I'm measuring, so 2% is probably not enough to move any tangible needle 5% Probably yes. That that would actually I would feel like okay, you actually are increasing your calories, but anything less than a 5% increment. I would say you're unless you're weighing your lettuce and your rice kernels. I wouldn't bother with 2%. So that I don't think any again, nothing. Very few people are going to be that precise.
Philip Pape 50:08
Yeah, good point, um, from a practical. From a practical standpoint, you would only know in hindsight, if you just over months like seeing the average weight trend go in that direction, but then it's too late. You've already gone past the point we made those decisions. And then what about women versus men? This this study was Was this on men? Yeah, train? Yeah. Yeah. All
Bill Campbell PhD 50:29
of the studies that I'm aware of, and in fact, I don't know if women would sign up
Philip Pape 50:34
for, say they don't want to gain weight for a study. Yeah. Because maybe there are I'm sure
Bill Campbell PhD 50:39
there are some but even not in one geographical location, I think you'd have a hard time recruiting. And And sadly, you don't have there's no trouble recruiting females for fat loss studies. Men, that's you know, that's, it's good for those that need to lose body fat. But I think we're both aware a lot of women think they should. And it's like, no, you're you're lean like it. Yes. It's unfortunate that you have whatever pressure that makes you have to lose her feel like you want to lose more. All
Philip Pape 51:08
right, in the interest of time, I wanted to touch one more topic, and that was the anti anabolic effects of the keto diet, study the issue 18 study to the effects of a ketogenic diet on body composition and strength in trained women speaking off as a fat loss study, regardless, Molina 2020, but they compare it to keto diet versus a high carb diet in resistance trained women, the keto diet group lost more body fat gained less muscle mass. The caveat there is they also ate on average, 270 calories less, but then you note that that could just be a result of the higher satiety of the diet. And then the higher carb group gain muscle mass and strength. So I have a whole bunch of notes here. But let's just jump in for time. You know, and talk to me about your thoughts, like let's is keto, recommended for anyone outside of medical conditions to be honest, for if you if you care about building muscle.
Bill Campbell PhD 52:01
So it is not the ideal diet if your primary goal is to build muscle? That study was a microcosm of other studies in males than the study was in females, but we have the same data in males. We have cellular data, where a ketogenic diet suppresses anabolic signaling in skeletal muscle. So if the goal is to build as much muscle less possible, it is not the best diet choice. On the flip side, if your primary goal is to lose body fat, the ketogenic diet has a lot of utility and value for the people who can follow it for expressing the reason that you suggested earlier. There is no other diet that suppresses appetite. Like a ketogenic diet, it's the best diet for making you have less hunger. So if it's a fat loss, I would put this on the table for clients like, hey, what do you think about this, you want to lose body fat? Here's an approach that would max that maybe help you with this? Again, if somebody wants to gain muscle, it's not the best choice. But then even then I would say, D, okay, you're not going to gain as much you're not going to optimize muscle. But do you like the ketogenic diet? Yes, yeah. I like it. Okay. Do you have any goals to step on Mr. or Miss Olympia stage? No, okay, then maybe this is still a diet for you to gain muscle, but you're just not going to gain as much as you could with this diet, because again, there's a little blunting of the of anabolic signaling. And we also have a study of males where it's suppressed testosterone as well.
Philip Pape 53:37
Yeah, right. And in this study, that was, yeah, you mentioned that that was an from a distance study. Sorry. Yep. And you also say, Yeah, repressed suppression and muscle protein synthesis, was what we're talking about here. Is keto, really more satiating? Or is it is it keto, compared to an uninhibited diet, more satiated? I say it like that. Because yeah, my clients I know, you know, eat a lot of fiber and nutrient dense foods, high satiety foods, you know, potatoes and apples and oranges are in there is if you're actually paying attention to satiety, is it more satiating? I'll say,
Bill Campbell PhD 54:11
maybe not if, if you're controlling for fiber, and if you're controlling for protein, so where that statement comes from, is, when you look at all of the studies where they didn't control for anything, ketogenic diet, sometimes or many times will lose more body weight. And then the false narrative is obviously it's better. It's like no, they significantly less calories. So there is some evidence to suggest that ketones help suppress or lower appetite. So in that case, it would be unique, but how much would that happen if calories and protein has controlled and fiber? Maybe maybe not as much, right?
Philip Pape 54:51
Yeah. And in a fat loss phase that gets fairly either drawn out or aggressive, the fat or the carbs end up being somewhat low. Oh, anyway, I would say not maybe not keto low, though, for because I guess we're defining is like maybe 50 or 30 grams, you know, some of that down in that range. Okay, cool. I know you gotta go. So is there any last thing you want to mention? Otherwise you can tell people where to find your stuff. And I'll make sure to throw those in the show notes.
Bill Campbell PhD 55:15
No, but I would love to have you contribute to my research review in the future. So hopefully, you'll take me up on that offer. You're a scientist. And I think you gave me some background of your past education, et cetera, et cetera. So, but thank you so much for having me on again. And let me talk about the things that I love to talk about.
Philip Pape 55:33
Thank you so much bill on on the record, I will definitely be I would love to contribute to your review, because I'm a passionate follower of it myself, as well as a lot of our listeners. So thank you. Again, I'm gonna you know, throw all this information that you review in there as well how people can find you on IG, and we're going to be in touch so enjoy the rest of your day. And thanks for coming on. Yes, thank you. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 156: How to Lose 1,000 Pounds
What would it take to lose 1,000 pounds? Find out the surprising truth about dieting and discover a radically different, evidence-based approach to transforming your body composition. In this episode, Philip talks about breaking the cycle of dieting and weight regain, strength training, and mindset shifts. It is not another quick fix or fad diet but a method that prioritizes long-term results through evidence-based approaches, focusing on body composition rather than simplistic weight loss goals.
What would it take to lose 1,000 pounds? Find out the surprising truth about dieting and discover a radically different, evidence-based approach to transforming your body composition.
In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) talks about breaking the cycle of dieting and weight regain, strength training, and mindset shifts. It is not another quick fix or fad diet but a method that prioritizes long-term results through evidence-based approaches, focusing on body composition rather than simplistic weight loss goals.
Philip touches on the societal trend of repetitive dieting attempts and weight fluctuations, shedding light on the struggles individuals face in maintaining sustainable results. He talks about the dangers of perpetual dieting and yo-yo weight cycles, emphasizing the importance of preserving muscle mass during weight loss. He also discusses the significance of strength training and muscle building for overall health and body composition.
Today, Philip also introduces the upcoming launch of Wits & Weights Physique University, a dynamic semi-private group coaching program meticulously designed to elevate your fitness journey. This experience is tailored to empower you with personalized nutrition and strength training strategies.
🎉 Pre-Sale Alert! Be among the first to secure your spot at an exclusive pre-sale price! Join the pre-sale list now and receive priority access to join Wits & Weights Physique University. Just 10 spots will be available before the price goes up.
👉 Join the Pre-Sale List
Don’t miss this opportunity to transform your physique and enhance your well-being.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
4:27 Wits & Weights Physique University
10:50 The truth behind dieting cycles
15:00 Weight loss vs. fat loss
16:31 Breaking free from traditional dieting
21:24 The importance of body composition
24:53 Put a plan in place
27:15 Improving body composition through strength training
31:05 Training has to be hard, and reframing your mindset
43:17 Outro
Episode resources:
Embarking on a health and fitness journey can often feel like navigating through a labyrinth of conflicting information and fleeting trends. Today, we are presented with a refreshingly straightforward and sustainable approach to dieting, strength training, and overall health transformation. The episode's underlying message is clear: traditional dieting paradigms are fundamentally flawed, often leading to a vicious cycle of weight loss and gain, also known as the dreaded yo-yo effect.
Philip opens the episode by confronting the harsh reality that traditional diets are typically designed for failure, leading not only to temporary weight loss but also to potential harm to our metabolism and overall health. Instead of fixating on the numbers on the scale, Philip urges listeners to shift their focus towards enhancing their body composition through muscle building. He makes a compelling case for the inclusion of all macronutrients in our diets and advocates for a flexible approach to eating, which does not demonize any particular food group. This philosophy is built upon the foundation of evidence-based strategies, which promise not just temporary reductions in weight, but genuine, lasting transformations in health and body composition.
The podcast delves into the psychological and physiological ramifications of yo-yo dieting, a phenomenon all too familiar to many of us. Philip underscores the importance of understanding the difference between weight loss and fat loss and the perils associated with the loss of lean muscle. Through a more holistic approach, which includes strength training and proper nutrition, listeners are encouraged to not just reduce calories, but to redefine their relationship with food and exercise altogether.
One of the most profound takeaways from this episode is the call to redefine fitness and shift our mindset towards health. Philip inspires listeners to perceive food as fuel and exercise as a celebration of what our bodies are capable of achieving. The emphasis on creating training habits and tailoring nutrition to individual needs is a testament to the podcast's commitment to providing actionable advice that resonates with a diverse audience. Whether you are a seasoned athlete or just beginning your fitness journey, the podcast serves as a personal guide to nurturing a healthier relationship with food and exercise, transforming them from burdensome tasks into joyous celebrations of health.
Moreover, Philip does not shy away from providing concrete tips on fat loss and ab training, often sharing insights from his own journey and struggles with fitness. His transparency and willingness to share both his knowledge and personal experiences lend an authenticity to the podcast that is both engaging and relatable.
In summary, this episode represents a call to action for anyone looking to break free from the constraints of traditional dieting and to embark on a more informed, flexible, and enjoyable path to health and body composition. It's an invitation to join a community that celebrates strength, nourishment, and the transformative power of a well-rounded approach to fitness. For those ready to challenge the status quo and embrace a new paradigm in diet and health transformation, this episode is a must-listen.
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
What would it take to lose 1000 pounds? What if that approach is exactly the opposite of what it takes to achieve the health and physique you've always wanted? Today you're going to learn a Surprising Truth About dieting and discover a radically different evidence based approach to transforming your body composition. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights
Philip Pape 00:45
community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. In our last episode 155 Six steps to rebuild your strongest healthiest body over 40. With Brian grin. Brian discussed how to find clarity tackle stress and make sleep your secret weapon for fat loss and muscle gain. We talked about nutrition myths, meal timing, and intermittent fasting plus effective strategies for training smart given your recovery capacity and joint health. Today for Episode 156, how to lose 1000 pounds, we're going to tackle a topic that might sound insane, but there's a method to my madness. And there's a reason I titled it this ridiculous number of 1000 pounds. And before he started thinking this is just another fad diet or quick fix, which would be kind of insane. Just hear me out right what we're really going to do. What we're going to explore today is the truth behind the dieting cycle that so many of us have experienced this is men and women. For most of our life. Let's be honest, when it comes to what the numbers tell us, which is 95 to 99% of people are always dieting to some extent and then fail to maintain those results. We're also going to talk about how it can hold you back from achieving the health and physique you've always wanted. So by the end of this episode, you'll either have a new understanding of or a refresher in. Number one, why traditional dieting often fails, why it can be harmful to your health to your metabolism. Number two, the importance of focusing on body composition and building muscle. We love muscle here, not just weight loss, and in fact, sometimes not weight loss. Number three, how flexible dieting and strength training can help you achieve sustainable results results that will give you lasting changes for the rest of your life. And the mindset shifts needed to do that. Now whether you've been struggling with this exact thing, yo yo dieting, dieting cycles for, you know recently for years for decades, or you're just starting your health and fitness journey. On this show, we are all about bringing you knowledge and tools. That's it knowledge and tools that you need to break free from some of the conventional traditional wisdom, quote unquote, on dieting, on eating on movement, and start actually making progress. Now, before we dive into the show, even though I'm really excited to get into the topic, I've also got something really special to share with you for the first time ever on the show. And it is relevant to today's episode. So let me ask you a question. Do you feel like you're stuck in that cycle, whether a cycle of restrictive diets, you go on keto, you come off, you go on Carnival, you come off, whether it's endless cardio, because you feel like you just got to keep moving to burn fat, whether it's your lifter, and you keep getting stuck, not quite able to build that muscle. And you just find yourself back at square one, whatever that means to you. And you're putting in all the effort. That's the thing. We're taking action. People listen to the show, if you're listening, I know you are learning and growing and trying to do everything, every trick in the book, to build muscle to lose fat and still not always seeing the results. And wants you to know that you are definitely not alone. And by that I mean, almost everybody on this planet deals with these issues. To some extent, myself included. And I was there several years ago, I've come a long way. And I'd love to share that on this podcast and help you do the same. And I've seen time and again, clients, the Facebook community, you know, my podcast listeners, people who are ambitious people who are in their 30s 40s, beyond who you know, faced life, and they've learned and they still have these challenges despite putting in the work. And maybe you've even succeeded everywhere else, your career, your family, your personal growth. But when it comes to your physique, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall. So I want you to take that. And now I want you to imagine a world actually, for those of you who are child of the 80s like me, you know from the 90s and 2000s. The movie, the guy who announced the movie trailers in a world where you're not just another member in a crowded gym. You're not just a follower of the fad diet are the influencers. I want you to picture yourself with a clear plan. It's Taylor Just for you, for how you like to live your life, or how busy you are. And you're able to build a strong, lean, healthy physique. You don't have to sacrifice a bunch of time and like carve out your schedule for a million things. You don't have to sacrifice your lifestyle you're eating out, you're going to vacation, your travel, you're enjoying baked goods, ice cream, whatever it is. And imagine feeling completely empowered physically, mentally, emotionally, like, I know what I can do, I've got this, I know that every action I take is going to create an output that I have control over. And then finally, you look in the mirror and you say, Yeah, I did that, like I did it, and I can do it again. So if that's the confidence you want, I am introducing for the first time on the podcast, something called Wits & Weights physique, university, this is launching in April, it's been a passion of mine for probably over a year now to take what I've learned from working with one on one clients from talking to so many of you in, in the free calls that I do in people in the Wits, & Weights, Facebook community, in all the experts with all the guests that I've had, and experts I've spoken to on podcast, and put it into a format that is more accessible to more people to make more of an impact. Now many of you may already know or maybe not that I offer one on one coaching right now one on one, coaching tends to be a lot more expensive. It's not for everyone, it's a much more tailored hands on approach. But this new program is more of a semi private group experience. And in my opinion, it goes way beyond typical, quote unquote, group coaching programs, because what I want for you is what I would want in something like that, okay, I would want education, I would want application, I would want personalization. And I would want a community that could support me actively, not just in Facebook group, you know, I love our Facebook group, something where you're completely dedicated with like minded individuals, going after the best version of yourself. But I don't want to keep it a mystery. So I'm going to tell you what you get. And then I think this coming Saturday, I'm going to record an episode specifically about the program in detail for people who are curious. But here's what you get in a nutshell, there are gonna be weekly live coaching calls. So that right there is an excellent learning and coaching opportunity, a custom plan based on a unique assessment that you take. All right, right there. Most group coaching programs don't do that for you. This isn't a template, this isn't like a macro prescription. This is you submit a form, I or my team take a detailed look at it and put together a plan for you that that's like an 1820 Page nutrition plan. I'm going to drop monthly workout programs, okay, based on the principles that I espouse when it comes to strength and muscle. And these will be for different skill levels, different equipment, different days per week, and so on. So just sticking around for those could be worth it for you. I'm going to have courses, this is the backbone of why I'm calling it university courses in everything from nutrition to training, to hormones to metabolism, I'm going to constantly expand this. So if you're in the program, you're going to get new stuff all the time and constantly be learning, because I want to bring you the ultimate DIY experience, which is crazy for a coach to say, right, because a lot of coaches, they want to kind of hook you into their program. My values are that if you can learn to do it for yourself, but you continually learn and grow, the continual growth is where the value is. And that's what I want to bring you, I want to take you from 80 to 90 to 95% to 99%. And then constantly be able to apply yourself and get better and better over time. And the cool thing is, as I mentioned earlier, it's accessible, I'm bringing it to you at a fraction, the cost of one on one coaching. And here's the thing, you'll be part of a private community, it's it's beyond what something like Facebook can provide, it's going to be much more personal. There'll be specific channels for different phases. So like if you're going after fat loss, you hang around with the fat loss crowd if you're going after muscle building, hanging out with that crowd. And you can jump around, depending on your needs. So I mean, kind of think of Reddit or slack or something like that. Put in a private community. And you can still get some one on one attention there with weekly check ins in the community, hence, the semi private experience. Okay, enough about that, because I don't want this to be a big sales pitch. But I did want to announce it for the first time and I'm very excited about it and hope you are too and you can hear my voice where I'm bringing all the awesome things of one on one coaching to more people. That's the goal here. So if you're ready, if you're ready to get that clarity if you want to launch your physique transformation, and do it sustainably in a community of like minded, curious ambitious fitness enthusiasts, right, that's what we are Wits & Weights physique University is where it's going to be. And I invite you to use the link in the show notes to put your name on the presale list. So I'm rolling this out in a way that I think is fair, the very first group to be notified will be my private clients and people who've had been intimately involved in our community with they've had calls with or they've attended my live events, and they've gotten on this special VIP He lists let's call it and then everyone else who's on the list that you're going to sign up here in my show notes. You loyal listeners of the show are going to have the next opportunity a few days later. And then finally, it'll go to more of a public lots. So those the first few slots, I think I'm going to make 10 slots available, it's going to be for 97 a month. This is basically free kits, like a like a guinea pig group, just to get the program going and you get first crack at it. And then the remaining presale slots are gonna go up to 147 a month, which is still an amazing value, and then the final launch price is probably gonna be around 247 a month. Alright, so if you want to get on that presale list for that early notification, just click the link in my show notes and again, Wits & Weights physique University is going live in April, and I'm gonna release more information all about the program on Saturdays bonus episode. All right, let's get into today's episode because the foundational principles of what we're talking about are completely irrelevant to the types of things you're going to learn and apply in the Wits & Weights physique University, today's episode is called How to Lose 1000 pounds. Alright, first, I'm going to explain why the title of the show actually makes total sense. Picture this because you probably can actually picture it because you lived it. First you decide to lose weight, then you start a new diet, keto, anyone, carnivore, anyone, vegetarianism, whatever. And maybe you get some success. In fact, you probably do have some quote unquote, success as in, the weight on the scale goes down. But then something happens, life happens. The weekend happens, the trip happens, the injury happens, the sickness happens. And before you know it, you're right back where you started. If not, let's be honest, a few pounds heavier. So if this sounds familiar, it's because it is so prevalent. You're not not only not alone, it's probably 90 95% of people have gone through this. And I did some research. And this is where the episode title comes from. It looks like most people try dieting at least 100 times in their lifetime. And I can believe this because I had a guest on a long time ago. I don't remember who I feel like it was a woman who said women that women tend to die at like 120 times on average. But men are not far behind. Let's be honest, we also have been wanting to lose weight and go through these cycles. Every time you die, you probably lost some weight, you lost 10 pounds, 1520 pounds. So if we assume 10 And you've dieted 100 times 10 times 100 is 1000 pounds. So to answer the question, stated by the title, how to lose 1000 pounds, most people actually do that.
Philip Pape 12:35
Okay, and it's not really a trick. I mean, I did trick you, let's be honest, I wanted to listen to the episode, but I'm giving you the goods. Now, the only reason people have lost that 1000 pounds is because of course they keep gaining it back and then having to do it over and over and over again. But here's the thing, is that cycle? Is that process of losing weight really what we want, like why are we going after that? Ask yourself every time you've stepped back into the Keto world, or the diet world or Weight Watchers, or Octavia or whatever it is, why, why are you doing it? And then when you lose the 1015 20 pounds? Does it make you happy? Does it get what you want. And today I want to dive into this. There's a lot of mindset stuff here, but there's some physiology as well. And we're going to explore a more evidence based way to transform your body and improve your health. So for those who are longtime listeners of the show, I think this is a great episode to refresh you on why we're doing this like and how this all works. So let's start by taking a look at the dieting cycle. We talked about how often people die at least 100 times in their life right there. If you just go by the number of years people live, I mean, even if somebody started when they were 10, and they went to their 90, and that's 80 years, that's still more than one diet a year. Right? Yes, crazy. And it's probably compressed into a certain timeframe right? For a lot of people might be starting in their teenage years, teenage 20s 30s, right kind of the vanity years, let's call it but then it might ramp up as you get the hormones start to kick in, especially for women, but men as well. And you just go on these cycles. But every time you lose weight, you also you also probably gain the weight back and then you gain more. And this is that yo yo diet, right? The effect of losing and regaining weight. It's frustrating for sure. But it's actually very harmful to your health into your metabolism even if you stayed the same scale weight that entire time. Because first let's think what happens when you diet. When you restrict calories, right? Your body starts to compensate starts to conserve. It induces metabolic adaptation, a totally normal process. Nothing you can do about it. That's fine, right? Your metabolism slows down, conserves energy, the more you die, well, if you are constantly dieting, you're constantly going into that mode, right? And then when you start eating again, you're now primed to regains energy that you've lost as fat. And if you're not tracking, eating flexibly, all the things we're going to talk about in a minute, if you're just indiscriminately eating, whatever, you're probably going to gain more So now let's add another layer on top of that, which is where I really think the rubber meets the road. And how vicious this cycle is. That is the weight loss versus fat loss comparison here. Because when you lose weight, if you're not strength training, if you're not eating the protein, you're going to lose muscle and you're gonna lose a lot of muscle, we're talking like 25% of it up to 50% of it as a muscle, it's a big number, you lose 20 pounds, five of it must be muscle, then you gain 1020 pounds back, it's all fat, you do it again, muscle, beginning back fat pounds and pounds and pounds of beautiful lean muscle tissues just fine off your body, the one thing we want to keep and grow, you're just losing, and you get more and more skinny fat, get more and more fluffy. But even worse, metabolic disease sets in, you know, fatty liver disease, you get more insulin resistant. Like all the things that we associate with obesity, and poor health and older age, even if you're not that, quote, unquote, heavy according to the BMI. But many of us do that as well. Because what you find when you lose muscle, is it's even easier to gain the fat. And then you end up gaining more and you get heavier, and then higher body fat percentage is this vicious cycle. And you're not sure what to do next, because all you've done in the past is diet. And it leaves so many people feeling hopeless, and feeling defeated. But it doesn't have to be that way. That's what I'm doing this show for. And that's what I love that you're listening today. Because this is going to change your life if you've never heard it before. And if you have, it's just hopefully going to re motivate you as to why this is important. One of the problems of traditional dieting is it's just too restrictive. And it's completely unsustainable, right? So I'll get to the Fat Loss Weight Loss thing, but right now I'm talking about the dieting itself. Because even when you are trying to lose fat and your strength training, and you're doing all the other things, right? The way that you approach your diet is extremely important. Let me ask you this, would you rather cut out foods or just cut out calories. And it's important to think of it that way. Because when you want to lose weight to lose fat, meaning you are, you're training to build muscle, you're holding on to the muscle, and you're losing weight to lose fat. When you want to do that, you have to be in a calorie deficit, you just have to be energy balance, right. And you can either do that by cutting things indiscriminately, so that somewhere down the line, it results in you eating less. Or you can go right for the jugular and say, you know, what's a more efficient way to reduce my calories? How about reduce my calories? Let me say that again? What's the most efficient way to reduce your calories? Reduce your calories? Now, what do most people do, they don't reduce their calories, they cut out carbs, or they cut out seed oils. So they cut out plants for God's sake on carnivore come on cutting out plants, right. And you start cutting out so many things that naturally cause and effect and effect and effect in effect, you end up cutting out, you know, the corn chips you normally have. And you cut out the alcohol you normally have you cut out the nuts, the big bag of nuts you have every day and you know, it ends up leading to guess what? A calorie deficit. So why don't we instead of cutting out foods, we just moderate the calories and the macros where we want them and then eat whatever the heck we want to hit those macros and calories. So I think it's very twisted. People get backward when they say Oh, I don't want to count calories. Oh, that's restrictive. Oh, you shouldn't calorie restrict, there is a time and place to go in a calorie deficit in a controlled manner when it's combined with healthy movement practices. And so when you're going to do that, why wouldn't you do it as efficiently and in control as you can? Right? So instead of cutting out food groups are drastically reducing the you know, your diversity of what you can eat, which not only deprives you of important nutrients, it simply sets you up for failure. The lack of things means you're going to want those things, period. You know it? I know it? Okay, I love ice cream. If I said I'm cutting out ice cream completely. All I would think about is when Can I have ice cream? How can I fit it in? When can I sneak it in? Oh, maybe I'll just cut calories here so I could fit ice cream and over there. And it becomes this whole restrictive talk this conversation in your head. Okay, who wants to live their life without pizza or ice cream Come on, or whatever that vise is for you. Now I did just get a ninja creamy, which I know is all the rage now. So I've jumped on that bandwagon. And I will say it is quite amazing when you can make an entire pint of ice cream that tastes like a frosty from Wendy's that has 300 calories, 50 grams of protein and very little fat and carbs. That is amazing. And I encourage you to take advantage of science in that way. That's perfectly fine. Okay. But the truth is here focusing on dieting in a restrictive way is not to your benefit. And I wanted to mention that because at some point there is a need for a calorie deficit to go into a fat loss phase and we want to at least diet the proper way. But now I want to go back to the conversation of dieting and weight loss in the first place. Why do we even do that? Right? Yeah, you want to be better physique, you want a better physique, because it'll help you feel great look great, you know, be a role model for your kids have more energy and so on. But when you've lost the weight on those restrictive diets in the past, did it give you that, and I posit that it probably did not. Unless you were doing a bunch of other things, to hold on to your muscle and improve your body composition. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights, I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique, and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. And if we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.
Philip Pape 21:24
Right, so let's talk about body composition. Because body composition is just what it sounds like. It's the composition of tissue in your body of fat to muscle. And we give it a lot of lip service. And people talk about it all the time. A lot of people I don't think understand exactly how to get there. And one of the big misconceptions I hear often is, well, I'm just gonna get lean before I build muscle. Very common, I just need to lose the weight before I build muscle and I've fallen trapped to this myself, I've fallen trapped to it as a coach with my clients who come in, they're not really that overweight, but they're just so uncomfortable with their body. And having felt like they've lost the ability to even control that aspect of it, that they want this, they want a quick wins. And so what I'm trying to balance is a quick win, but not a quick fix, right. And there is a very fine balance. Because for a client of mine who's working with me where I can monitor everything and do it in a controlled safe fashion, we can absolutely set up for fat loss for about 4678 weeks, without cutting calories, right? We set up for it, we get your training where it needs to be dialed in, where you're training heavy, but having lots of recovery. You're not doing too much cardio, you're just doing the right amount and you're walking, you are eating plenty of protein, all the things and then yeah, we can go after a controlled fat loss phase, even if in reality, I would really love that you would gain muscle first, okay? It's not my body, though. It's your body and I want to work with you. And because I'm there as your coach, I can at least help guide you through that process in a safe way. Get the quick win without the quick fix, doing it sustainably and then saying, Okay, I've lost a few pounds, I'm feeling good, I understand how this works now. And I trust you that I can go the other direction and build muscle with very little weight gain. And, and even if there is some weight gain, a lot of that's going to be muscle. Okay? Now the I don't want to make this whole muscle building talk because I did an entire podcast on that. I have a guide my muscle building nutrition blueprint that came out, you can get that at wits & weights.com/free, if you want the whole guide to building muscle, but I just want to talk about the fact that a lot of people unless you're very overweight, don't necessarily have to lose weight. You can maintain your weight. You can train strength train, right, apply this flexible dieting approach where we are tracking macros, and we're tracking calories. And we have this more sustainable way of eating whatever we want. Including the indulgences that we enjoyed maybe 10 20% of the time, instead of cutting out entire food groups, getting the right balance of protein, carbs, fat and yes, carbs. Carbs are important. Unless you're in fat loss where the carbs naturally get pushed pretty low. More carbs are generally going to make most people feel better. There are lots of carbs to choose from. So don't get don't get pigeonholed and thinking of carb is this one thing, right? There's fruits there starches, there's grains, those are the big ones. There's carbs that are contained in plant sources like legumes, right beings. So the right balance of all these things for your body for your goals. What are you still enjoy your favorite foods in moderation and make progress. I just had a talk yesterday with a client was wedding next year. This is a male client now about two thirds of my clients are female, third or male. And I expect every type of client that I work with, whether they're all about building muscle and gaining or they're trying to lose fat and get get lean. When Wits & Weights University comes out we're going to have plans for every style of goal the physique goal, but at the end of the day, everyone will go through every phase at some point, right? I'm a big fan of periodized in the nutrition and so he has a wedding coming up and we are talking about what makes sense If it's over a year from now, he wants to improve his physique a bit more, he's lost a little bit of fat, gain a little bit of muscle, what do we do? And I said, Well, you've got the time is on your side, like, if time is on your side, you're not pressuring yourself with a date. You know, like, I've got to be ready for the summer and you know, three months, which I get it, some people have those goals they want to put on themselves. And then we just need to do have realistic expectations. But if you got time on your side, it gives you a lot more options. And I always prefer the option that says, let's, you know, plan for the worst hope for the best. Meaning we put a plan in place that is conservative enough to give you weeks and weeks of, quote, unquote, falling off track. And normally I hate using that phrase, but most people know what I mean by that. And because you're planning it in, it's not really falling off track, you're basically saying, Look, life's gonna happen, I'm going to take a trip here, trip here, trip here, somebody's gonna visit me, we're gonna go eating out here, and then we're gonna have a party on this day, a party on that day, we've got the holidays on it ended up and because life is going to happen, assuming happens, planned for it and say, Okay, well, in an ideal world, this amount of fat loss or this amount of muscle building would take, you know, 16 weeks or 26 weeks, I'm going to tack on like 25% of that, because I've got all this time to work with giving myself the chance for diet breaks, or maintenance breaks, give me a chance for going faster or slower. That extra time gives you a chance. And that means you can have a flexible macro plan by macro, I don't mean protein, fats and carbs. I mean, like big picture, you can have this flexible plan for not only, you know, day to day or flexible, but week to week and month to month, the whole thing is designed with your life in mind, life is going to happen, right? And so he and I came out with it with some very conservative rates of gain and rates of loss that gave him a lot of buffer. And we said, look at any given time, you can choose to step on the gas pedal and go after it and be more aggressive. You know, within reason, right? We set limits, because you don't want to lose too fast. You don't want to gain too fast, or else you get unnecessary muscle loss or fat gain. And there you go. So when we talk flexibility, that's what we're talking about. Now, I'm kind of meandering, from topic to topic, but it all it all is gonna tie together pretty well. We talked about flexible dieting, we talked about body composition, how do we then improve our body composition in that context? Well, that's where the building muscle comes in. That's where strength training comes in strength training, with progressive overload, training, close to failure, so that you progress and get stronger over time, will help you look and feel better than you could ever imagine. Whatever the scale weight is. So that's the beauty of it. That's bringing me back home, in what I was talking about here, that instead of losing weight, why don't you build muscle, build muscle at maintenance, build muscle in a lean gain, or build muscle in a more optimal, slightly more aggressive game? Either way, it's going to benefit you in the long term, no matter what, even if you carry a little extra fat, the extra muscle is worth way more than any negatives from extra fat. Let me say that again, extra muscle is worth way more in on the positive side than any negatives from extra fat. It's so true, like muscle is the cure to obesity, that I'm just gonna say it that way. muscles, the cure to obesity, I have plenty of clients who are bigger guys, or even bigger. Women who are super strong have a lot of muscle. And they are in fantastic health. But if you looked at them, you'd say, wow, they carry a little extra weight. And they're cool because they want to carry the weight. They feel stronger, more capable, functional, and they're pushing a lot of weight. I have plenty of other clients were like No, no, I want to be lean, I want to have a six pack, I want to have the muscle definition. Okay, we still build the muscle first, and then we just lean out a bit more aggressively than someone else might. Having more muscle mass means you can eat more without gaining weight. Okay, that is a weird word in my book. I don't know. I mean, there's a couple reasons for this. The first is, muscle is an expensive tissue for your body to carry. It is not a natural thing to carry this extra muscle, we naturally lose muscle over time. But we have these beautiful things called weights and machines and cables where we can load our skeletal muscular system and actually prevent the loss of muscle mass with age and add new muscle mass, right? That muscle mass is expensive in terms of the resources required from your food from the amino acids, okay to constantly rebuild that tissue. And so you burn a few more calories by carrying more muscle mass. Not only that, you burn even more calories because you're probably walking around at a heavier scale weight. And this is again, the opposite of the dieting cycle thinking of I need to get skinnier, skinnier, skinnier No, no, no no no. We want to get leaner and stronger and fitter and more muscular but muscular doesn't mean bulky. It doesn't mean bulky ladies, muscular means, you know hard, tight, operate, good posture, like you look like a an athletic human being. That's what it looks like. Okay, men and women. Unless you're on steroids, you're not going to get bulky. Even men aren't going to get bulky without a lot had to work over many, many years, and a lot of eating. So having more muscle mass means your muscles gonna burn more, and your body is going to burn more all because you are carrying more weight, which also means when you die, and when you gain you do it from higher levels, not because you've magically ramped up your metabolism, it technically, other than the fact that you carry more of stuff that requires energy. So in that sense, you have like, does that make any sense? If you and someone else with the same body composition, you can't change your metabolism, alright, and I've used that term in the past incorrectly, you can't really change it, you can just change your body so that your metabolism is correlated with that new body. Does that make sense? So maybe it doesn't matter. Because you at the end of the day, you're burning more calories. And that's looks like changing your metabolism. So we'll we'll leave it at that. Okay, so I'm trying to, I'm looking at my notes, see, if I anything I missed in this section, with strength training, the thing to remember is being consistent. Okay, I did a quick wits about this recently about just getting started as often the hardest thing and then being consistent, the training has to be hard. Now, art is a very nebulous term. And I've talked about this in many contexts. But it should be hard enough to push your muscles close to failure so that they have no choice but to adapt when you're sleeping the next day, and get a little bigger, so that you can live more the next time and more than next time. Okay, strength training will help you build that lean, toned, hard muscle, whatever word you want to do, which actually will make you look smaller, in a good way. Right, lean or whatever word you want to use, and more defined, even if the scale doesn't change. Okay, so all of these concepts are really important to revisit, over and over again, in our heads and understand why building muscle is important, and also helps us get over the mindset of the fear of building muscle, which often requires gaining weight. So how do we make that shift? How do we make the mindset shift from focusing on weight loss to, I'm gonna call it health and body composition, because I think they go hand in hand, I think weight loss, which causes you to lose muscle, if you're not going after fat loss is what I mean, is detrimental to your health. Getting skinny by virtue of just indiscriminately losing a bunch of tissue is not good for your health. Whereas adding muscle, whether the scale goes up or down is, is supremely helpful to your health. All right, but a lot of it does start in the mind. And so if you've ever listened to me talk about reframing positive reframe Allah, very positive guide naturally, but I also have learned as a skill to reframe things in a positive way. And when clients check in and again, if you join the Wits, & Weights University, one of the earliest course modules I'm going to have in there, it's about mindset, all the aspects of mindset, it's not fufu type stuff, even though there's a place for some of that, if anybody knows me, it's evidence based. But it's also practical. Like that's what I want to be is like, what tools do we use to shift our mindset to serve us and our goals. So for example, instead of seeing food as the enemy, or seeing exercise as punishment, we reframe those things, right? Food is fuel food is nutrition for our bodies, right? It gives us the energy, we want more of it, we want to add in the foods that serve us add in the protein that helps us build muscle, add in the carbs, it gives us energy in recovery, add in the fats that support our hormones, add in the things that don't mess with our digestion, right? Add in the things that keep us full, adding indulgences here and there that keep us sane. So that's food, exercise or training is a celebration of what our bodies can do training and lifting weights, when you can go in there and push the iron around, move the cable around, whatever, and engage with your muscles and just bring it all together as this beautiful system that can work together and push things around. Like that is a celebration of your body. But you can do that. And you can do it more and more effectively. And you can push more force, the stronger you get. And then that causes you get more muscle definition and get bigger and stronger and leaner and harder. And all those great things. All right, very passionate about this. When we focus on nourishing our bodies, and moving them in ways that feel good, we're more likely to stick with the habits. That's where the consistency and habits come in. Not forcing ourselves to do it with discipline and willpower. But taking a little action, seeing the win that comes from fueling ourselves and for moving. And then we just want to do it over and over and over again, no matter how hard it is. When you approach health and fitness from this place of self care and compassion, right as much as I talked about lifting weights, yeah, it is a is an act of self care, as opposed to how to lose 1000 pounds, which is fun. caching yourself in restricting yourself. When you do that, when you care about yourself enough to prioritize these things, amazing things can happen because that is when you actually enjoy eating nutritious foods, you look forward to your workouts, you start to see changes in your energy, your sleep, your well being and yes physiologically to and things like your hormones. And of course, visually, your body composition, your physique, you get more muscle, less fat, and whatever drives you like for a lot of people having more energy is kind of a nebulous thing. But like, looking great naked in the mirror is very visceral. So take all those things, and they're all valid for you, whatever drives, alright, so the key, even though I just said, those drive you right, and you have a goal somewhere down the road, the key is to focus on the here and now for the process. Because if the process can be enjoyable, like eating the food, like doing the workouts, you'll get the outcome, and they go hand in hand, right? You get the small wins along the way. Like I lifted five more pounds this session than last session, I chose to have this or that at the restaurant. And always remember, progress is never linear. Like I have to I tell my clients this all the time, and it still comes up because it's in our nature to beat ourselves up. Especially when we're very ambitious. When we are do it yourselfers, we almost put perfectionism on ourselves. And then there's these ups and downs and the downs tend to be amplified. But what matters is you keep showing up because the UPS will outweigh the downs over time. And then eventually, mentally, you get to the point where the downs are tolerable, and then there and then you almost don't care because you know, with certainty with confidence, you are going to keep progressing, no matter what life throws at. All right. So to recap, man, I'm totally into this topic, I hope you guys are to the dieting cycle, the losing and regaining weight, in the form of mainly, not mainly, but fat and muscle is terrible for your health. It's also frustrating. So instead of focusing on that, why don't we prioritize body composition, prioritize health through these simple pillars of flexibility of sustainability. And it really pervades everything we talk about from a sustainable approach to lifting, which means prioritizing recovery, and progression and balancing all of that a sustainable approach to eating where you eat whatever you want, but you have the restraint of the energy balance that you need and the macro balance you need for your goals. And by shifting our mindset to one of self care and compassion. All of these things make it sustainable, because they are in tune with a positive, healthy psychology and way of living. That doesn't feel like we're fighting against ourselves. So if any of this resonates with you, I encourage you to start small, right? I encourage you to download macro factor and start tracking your food. I encourage you to commit to a string training program, right and schedule it in, get ready to go and reach out for help if you need to know how to get started. If you need any support or guidance on along the way you're listening to this podcast I want you don't know this isn't a podcast where you just consume information. Okay, this is a podcast where you can get resources to help. I'm a nutrition coach, we have a community we have the Wits & Weights, physique, university starting up, the whole purpose of that is to provide more and more impact to more people to navigate this exact journey and find what works for you, not what to cut out, not how much you have to run. But what works for you. Thank you so much for tuning in today. You know, we covered a lot. Thank you for sticking with me is what I meant to say. Right, we talked about the truth behind the dieting cycle, we talked about a more effective approach to transforming your body transforming your health, focused on body composition, flexible diet, dieting, and strength training. And that will help you break free from this endless cycle. And we talked about the mindset of self care and compassion. So as we close out today, I do want to remind you of a game changer. Okay, this is going to be a game changer in April. For those stuck in the frustrating cycle of diet of cardio of all the old usual things. The fifth floor answers the this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. Let's get away from all that. All right. If you've got little to show for all of your hard work so far, something's got to change and if you're ready for change, Wits & Weights physique University is launching in April, and it's going to be a unique semi private group coaching experience that in my opinion is unlike anything out there. It just isn't. I have not seen anything that has this much support value and personalization in a semi private setting, community setting. All right, this is where you're going to achieve the physique you want. Strong, lean, healthy, you're gonna get a program that blends personalized but flexible nutrition, strain training, you're gonna get monthly programs, educational courses, weekly coaching calls, an incredible community support system, and all of it at a fraction of the cost of one on one coaching. So if you're ready, are you ready for change if you're ready to transform your physique and join a community of like minded fitness enthusiast, who just don't want to stay stuck in the dieting cycle rat race, then jump on the presale list right now, by clicking the link in the show notes. secure your spot take advantage of the special presale price, which is just crazy low. Anybody who knows typical prices for you know, good nutrition coaching because I know there are a lot of terrible coaches out there. I'm not going to call them out by names. But if you if you run them by me, I'll let you know.
Philip Pape 40:49
It's a crazy price, and you want to get it before it goes up. So let's make this year the one where you finally achieve your fitness goals. How's that? Alright, in our next episode 157 Bill Campbell on aggressive dieting, dirty bulking and keto effects on muscle building. Dr. Campbell is back on to revisit the latest and rapid fat loss, including our findings from the Wits & Weights read tilbyr challenge last year that followed a protocol inspired by his research. He and I discussed progressive versus aggressive calorie deficits. When does optimal bulking become dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle building, and a new study that builds Research Lab is currently planning you're gonna have to listen all the way through to find out what that is. And I do have one more little surprise. All right, if you're not yet a subscriber of Bill's body by science research review, by the way, I have no affiliation. I don't get any kickbacks, none of that. Okay, if you don't subscribe you yet, now's the time because I had the honor. I felt so honored that Bill asked me to do this. But I had the honor of contributing as one of his two experts for the March 2024 issue. So all I'm asking for you as a favor is Go subscribe. You could do a monthly if you just want to get the one issue. But then you'll probably get hooked and unsubscribe or I think he has an annual option. So go subscribe to body by science a s AP, so you get the March issue because this episode is dropping in March. And I think he only includes like the last two issues when you subscribe. So definitely subscribe now. So you get the March issue. And I just want to support my friend Dr. Campbell. I mean, he does great research down at University of South Florida. And he's a phenomenal guy he's doing right by the world. And he's a great teacher as well. I've learned a lot from him. So hit me up if you do that, if you subscribe to body by science, hit me up by Instagram, at Wits & Weights or by email at Phillip at wits & weights.com. And just let me know, hey, I subscribe to Bill's review. I want to know how many of our community are taking him up on that offer with the contribution that I made in there because I made two contributions are going to find interesting one is on ab training. Okay, which I don't know if I've ever actually talked about on the show, other than like one quick quits. So it's all about ab training, both nutrition and training. And then the other one is on my entire fat loss protocol. Like how would I set it up soup to nuts? And what's the importance of fats and carbs in that equation? Alright, that's it. I hope you enjoyed this episode of How to Lose 1000 pounds and now you know exactly what I meant by that. It's not what we want to do is that we want to we want to get strong. And as always, I want you to stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 155: 6 Steps to Rebuild Your Strongest, Healthiest Body Over 40 with Brian Gryn
Can you regain your energy and strength while losing inches to turn back the clock by 10-15 years or more? Philip speaks with Brian Gryn, host of the "Get Lean, Eat Clean" podcast, author of "The Stepladder System," and the go-to guy for men over 40 who want to improve their health. In this episode, Brian shares his six steps for rebuilding your strongest, healthiest body after 40. He shows you how to find clarity, tackle stress, and make sleep your secret weapon for fat loss and muscle gain. They also discuss nutrition myths, meal timing, and intermittent fasting, plus effective strategies for training smart, given your recovery capacity and joint health.
Can you regain your energy and strength while losing inches to turn back the clock by 10-15 years or more?
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) speaks with Brian Gryn, host of the "Get Lean, Eat Clean" podcast, author of "The Stepladder System," and the go-to guy for men over 40 who want to improve their health.
Like Philip, he shares no-nonsense, practical fitness and nutrition advice. In this episode, Brian shares his six steps for rebuilding your strongest, healthiest body after 40. He shows you how to find clarity, tackle stress, and make sleep your secret weapon for fat loss and muscle gain. They also discuss nutrition myths, meal timing, and intermittent fasting, plus effective strategies for training smart, given your recovery capacity and joint health.
Brian is one of the good ones in the industry. He cuts through the noise, avoids fads and quick fixes, and gets real results. He's been in the health industry for almost 20 years, coaching middle-aged men on how to build strength and healthy habits they can use for the rest of their lives.
Brian has a background in Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. He is in the business of making health transformations tangible, focusing on what really works over the long term.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:53 Personal connection that led to the principles
6:33 Clarity in health goals and its impact on motivation and adherence
9:34 Journaling to align the mindset and setting a baseline
16:00 Managing stress in busy lifestyles, including stress reduction techniques like meditation
22:03 What to do when stress levels are high
24:38 The role of sleep in fat loss, muscle gain, and performance, including quality improvement tips
29:12 Core nutrition principles
32:19 Intermittent fasting insights
38:16 Debunking nutrition myths
41:10 Meal timing effects on metabolism and energy
44:06 Training strategies for men over 40, focusing on joint health and balancing various activities
52:05 The question he wished Philip had asked
55:12 Where to find Brian
55:40 Outro
Episode resources:
Brian's Podcast: GET LEAN, EAT CLEAN
Website: briangryn.com
The Stepladder System – https://www.stepladdersystem.com/
As men age, the challenge of maintaining peak physical and mental performance becomes more daunting. The latest episode features Brian Gryn, an authority in men's health over 40. He offers an in-depth discussion on revitalizing your body and mind, emphasizing the importance of fitness, nutrition, and mindfulness for men who are looking to thrive in their prime.
Brian's approach is not just about shedding pounds or building muscle mass; it's a holistic method that also focuses on mental clarity, sleep quality, and the timing of meals. These elements are vital for a sustainable lifestyle that fosters vigor and vitality. The episode delves into the power of positive thinking and stress management, showcasing how these psychological components contribute to peak performance in both sports and everyday life.
The podcast doesn't just provide insights; it shares personal stories and expert strategies. Listeners will learn how to transform their inner critic into a source of encouragement and how to use stress as a catalyst for resilience and success. Brian and host Philip Pape discuss how even the busiest individuals can incorporate moments of mindfulness into their daily routines, using simple meditations and breathing exercises.
An essential part of the conversation centers on optimizing eating habits for maximum satiety and tailoring workouts to individual needs. The dialogue touches on why certain foods can keep you full longer and how adjusting carb intake around fitness regimens can yield better results. Listeners will gain an understanding of the role of resistance training in maintaining joint health and muscle mass, especially as they age.
The final segment of the episode focuses on the mental aspects of fitness. It highlights the importance of tracking progress, setting incremental goals, and maintaining a positive mindset. The discussion reinforces the concept that physical activity is not just about improving the body but also about enhancing mental well-being.
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Transcript
Brian Gryn 00:00
Not everyone's meant to like benchpress I don't think I think especially as you get older, you know might be tough on the shoulders, the joints. And if you can find a better way to maybe utilize different tools in the weight room to help with joint integrity, I think resistance bands is something that I never used to use. And now I use it from time to time and it's the fact that
Philip Pape 00:20
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm speaking with Brian grin, author of The stepladder system and the go to guy for men over 40 looking to turn their health around. I brought him on the show because we are kindred spirits when it comes to no nonsense practical fitness and nutrition advice. And today you are going to learn his six steps for rebuilding your strongest healthiest body over 40. Brian's going to show you how to find clarity, tackle stress and make sleep your secret weapon for fat loss and muscle gain. We'll get into nutrition myths, meal timing and intermittent fasting plus effective strategies for training smart, given your recovery capacity and joint health. Ryan is one of the good ones in the industry because he cuts through the noise, avoids fads and quick fixes. And he gets real results. He's been in the health industry for almost 20 years, coaching middle aged men on how to build strength and healthy habits that they can use for the rest of their lives. With a background in Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, Brian creates no nonsense customized plans that give you more energy, a stronger body and a sustainable lifestyle. He's in the business of making health transformations tangible, focusing on what really works over the long term for men over 40 seeking a serious reboot to their health, including more energy and strength while losing inches. Brian is the real deal. Brian, welcome to the show.
Brian Gryn 02:09
Phillip, thank you for that introduction. Copy paste that onto my patch best. Happy to give it to you might have to take that from you.
Philip Pape 02:20
You gotta have the epic Avengers music behind it. You know, they're really set up.
Brian Gryn 02:24
Love it. Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Philip Pape 02:26
For sure. And we met on your podcast. And you were gracious enough to come back on here. What we wanted to talk about today was the six principles from your book. And I want to let the listener know, this was my idea. And we're not just here to promote a book, we're here because there's a ton of value in these six steps for overall health and nutrition. And before we dive into each of those, Brian, what is your personal connection or experience that led to you developing these principles?
Brian Gryn 02:53
Yeah, so the principles came about from my own personal experience along with working with clients. I mean, I don't think with these principles, there's nothing groundbreaking, I think that's why they're sort of principles, right? You're just getting back to the basics. It's like, I always equate everything to golf, it's like, you know, you can do all these fancy things, but a lot of it comes down to like grip stance, you know, setup. And you know, same type of thing with health and fitness, I think it's easy to get caught up in a lot of the minutia, the details that go on, you know, if you're on YouTube, or, or Instagram, and everyone's got a new tip of the day. But a lot of times extra can can sort of take you farther away from your goal, I think. So that's why I want to sort of create this book, just sort of put it all together, I almost think it's like a workbook, because you sort of fill out as you go. And it gets you into act taking action steps as opposed to just reading more information, because there's plenty of information out there people can find that as much as they want. Yeah,
Philip Pape 03:52
I mean to two great things you mentioned there. One is the idea that they are principles, a big fan of principles versus methods. I mean, we need methods at some point to take that action, but the principles never change. And you're right the 1% is where so much attention is paid especially on social media it gets the clicks you know the cold plunges the red light therapy, even things that we think are kind of ho hum like soft supplementations still are just that tiny percentage of what moves the needle. So it's it's great that you got to that point, but I did want to dig in a little bit more personally with you. I'm not asking Hey, what is your story you know, people can learn about you and I don't want to take half the podcast doing that they want to get the information but like seriously, like what what have you gone through what have you learned? What's the Hard Knocks that you've experienced? that got you to, hey, this is important for me to put out in the world. Maybe it's helped you to help clients. What's a on that?
Brian Gryn 04:44
Well, it's it's interesting because my journey through how I started as a trainer and just sort of coaching in strength training, nothing around nutrition, meal timing, things like that. Sleep stress, things that we'll touch on A and I think the one thing I learned from that is is like, I mean, resistance training is a big piece of the puzzle. But a lot of times with individuals, especially a lot of my clients, which are men that are 40. Plus, you have to sort of dig a little bit deeper and touch on other aspects, because they're all sort of intertwine, and I love resistance training and talking about that, but also realize that, for people to get optimal results, they're going to have to maybe focus on other things alongside resistance training to really get what they want. So I think that was sort of my big thing that has grown through the years because I just first started out doing one thing, and now I try to touch on all those different principles to help people get, you know, optimal health.
Philip Pape 05:42
Cool. Yeah, that's probably why it appeals especially to, you know, to guys like me, and a lot of our listeners here, I think we have very similar audiences, from what I can tell when I was on your show, because the over 40 crowd is growing. And it's the demographic where we've got issues that catch up with us in life, right, we've got our personal obligations and our life stress, we have recovery and joint health challenges. A lot of people in the age group may not have started until late in life, but now you can't just say I go lift weights, there's all these synergistic things that go along with that. So all right, great. Thank you for setting the context. And let's dive right in. I think I have the six steps lined up, the first one being clarity. And that's an interesting one to start with. How do you find clarity? What does that mean? Why is this the first step in your stepladder?
Brian Gryn 06:30
Oh, well, I mean, I think that a lot of times people want to go from like, A to Z in like 2.5 seconds and just get to where they want to go, without necessarily digging into why they want to get there. I know, like, was a Simon Sinek Yeah, cynic who's done a bunch of, you know, TEDx is and things talks about, like, you know, his the why. And I think it's important about, you know, health as opposed to and along with other areas of your life, but like, getting crystal clear on that. And, you know, having, you know, sort of complete awareness of any, like unconscious patterns that aren't serving you. And that have hindered your progress in the past. So I think if you create some clarity as to why you want to get to where you want to go, and, and then understanding what has not worked in the past, I think that's like a good first step to start with. And a lot of times that could be coming coming down to I think we talked about it with you on my podcast is sort of recording and understanding and tracking what you're already doing, or what you're not doing. And then in sort of assessing that, and then building a sort of a program from that. So
Philip Pape 07:38
like clarity, again, we're talking about not only your goals, as you just mentioned, but also what is maybe shouldn't be part of your goals, or the unconscious patterns from the past that have sabotaged you from reaching your goals. And that's always an interesting one, right? Because I don't know if you found this in your career, but early on. For me, I was surprised at how much mindset played into this, even though I shouldn't have been, I think that was one of my unconscious patterns is not realizing how much my own mind was holding me back. And a lot of people are in that situation where I just want to know what to do. Just Just tell me the steps stuff I need to do, I'll get it done. I'm an action taker. And yet it doesn't quite. It's not the whole piece of the puzzle. So the tracking and awareness is great. But give us some more ideas underneath that as to not only finding your why, because I don't think there has to be too complicated to be honest. But especially the what hasn't worked piece of that.
Brian Gryn 08:31
Yeah, how you perceive yourself, I think it's important as well, I'll I'll just give an example. Like I had a client, who I talked to him every week, he would always portray himself as a, like a bad guy. Like he, you know, he was repeating this, like this fat funny guy, right. And this is how he's perceived himself. And I think that I'm not saying you have to do some whole psychological analysis on people. But I do think it's important these these little things that you say to yourself on a daily and weekly basis, they mean something, and they could affect how you're going about getting to where you want to go. Because if you're always portraying yourself, as that in your mind, consciously or unconsciously, this is going to take a toll over time. And that's not to say that everyone is like that. But I think it's important to be aware like this self awareness, I think, is is a good sort of first step and how you portray yourself is important. And
Philip Pape 09:27
what what is one of your favorite exercises or ways to reflect on that and learn about that self talk in the context of what we're going for here, which is, you know, fitness, specifically because we could open up a whole can of worms. I remember early in my career as an engineer, getting a career counselor who had me do one of those assessments, right, those personality assessments, and then you sort of do some other exercises that help you reflect on what you're good at what you're not what you like, what you don't like, and then you develop this sense of self awareness. Other training I've had over the years has to do with communicating with others and having emotional intelligence. So we're really talking about the self here, and the unconscious patterns and what's held us back. Also the self identity you mentioned, of identify as a fat guy or identify as you know, the class clown. I'm trying to unravel this, what's a very practical strategy someone can do today? who's listening to discover that for themselves?
Brian Gryn 10:24
Well, I would say that writing down like in a journal, I know not everyone loves doing that. I mean, I literally write in my journal every morning, and it takes me two and a half minutes, like I am waiting for my tea to boil. So you know, it's not like I'm sitting down, we're writing a novel. So I think, in that I write down I've self reflect, and I write down who I believe I am, like, I'm a winner. You know, I'm gonna have health and happiness, you know, certain things that just might be basic things, but like, you know, like, I've just not to go off, but I just watched a four part documentary on Conor McGregor. And, and yeah, and I can't say I'm like, the biggest McGregor fan. But you can, what you learn from that is his mindset from the start was, there was no doubt in his mind where he was going and been, who he, who he was, and who's going to become. And you see that? And I mean, obviously, his work ethic is second to none. And, you know, but like, there wasn't any doubt, you know, there wasn't any. And I'm not saying people can't have doubt and insecurity, I mean, that everyone has that. But I think that if you feed yourself with sort of that right mentality, that that winner mentality that you're going to get to where you want to go or who you who you want to be, I think that does play a role in you know, a lot of men don't necessarily and even women don't want to necessarily even go down that road. But I think, you know, if you write a few things down, I would say those would be write a few things down of who you believe you're going to be whether you're that person right now or not, I think that can take you far. And he had he has like three kids now. But his first son, every every time every scene with his son called him a champ, you know, and that that's going to work on the subconscious mind. And you know, I'm sure with him he made his kid might end up becoming a champ, who knows. But anyways, so that would be something that I would advise, I think that's
Philip Pape 12:14
great, man. I mean, people know who listened to me I'm not I personally am not a big journaler as a as a actual tool. But I do love it for a lot of people. And I also do what you're doing positive affirmations, whatever you want to call them, you can do them verbally. You do them when you talk and write to people, you do them on the podcast when you It's like how are you communicating? And you kind of check yourself, the more you do it, because it's a skill, like anything else, you develop that skill of saying, No, I'm an athlete, I'm a winner, I'm going to get bigger muscles, like I'm gonna take care of my kids, whatever. The thing is, it doesn't matter, but it's positive. It also reminds me of something in positive psychology called optimism bias. Some people have this inherently. And some people develop it, the idea of just being optimistic about everything, and not being afraid that the optimism is going to lead to disappointment, right? Because you're thinking, well, if I'm optimistic about everything, and it doesn't turn out to be true, won't I be disappointed? It actually doesn't seem to work that way. It seems to shift everything toward you now taking actions to make that happen. And sometimes you fail, and that's okay. But you're always pushing in that direction. Now we're getting philosophical, Brian, thanks for bringing that out.
Brian Gryn 13:20
I mean, I like I like talking about this part. Like I always bring everything like I said, back to golf. And you see that with golfers, good, bad, some of the greatest golfers, but the great ones, they think they already in their minds believe that they're, they're great. And there's no doubt they don't, you know, you hear a lot of people on the golf course say, Well, I suck at putting, and they say that to themselves. And they'll say it out loud, because I coach high school golf. And I tell them, I said, you know, as much as you think that's not harming you, it actually you're saying that to yourself every day? Like, is that really going to serve you? In the long term? It's not so
Philip Pape 13:53
true. Yeah. And I tell my clients all the time, you're an athlete, you know, even if they don't want to admit, admit it or accept it. And sometimes you need someone else to kind of push you toward that, like you said, with the golf example. Arnold Schwarzenegger is another great example that I mean, you watch his documentary, you see,
Brian Gryn 14:09
I love I love a three part series. And I think people do it. Some they don't realize they're doing it. Right. Right. They don't realize they're saying I suck at putting in until someone makes them aware of that. So I think that's where a coach or someone can come into play and say, Well, you realize you're saying that to yourself, like every time you go on the golf course. Well, yeah.
Philip Pape 14:28
And even to add to that, like, just statements you make in general, when they are framed in a moral moral way, like when we talk about food or just your week, you know, when I hear clients say, like, I did bad or I did a bad thing. It's like, no, no, this is a reframing opportunity, right? Like you made a choice. Something happened. That's data, let's learn from it. Let's move ahead. And this this week, you're going to be proactive and do something positive to shift it. Okay, so that's, that's the clarity piece. I don't know if you want to, you know, add anything else. I don't want to like robotically go to the next one. If we're not there yet. But we can. Number two,
Brian Gryn 15:02
no, no, that's fine. I mean, the only thing I would add is like understanding where you're at. And I'll say I've talked about this before meeting, like, set a baseline, like, okay, maybe, you know, like we talked about like, Well, we haven't talked about it, yes. But we want to talk about my podcast is like a DEXA scan, or like something where you just know where you're at, at this point in time. Because if you can just make, you know, I think getting small wins, which is the next sort of pillar, I like to talk about it, I call it like small changes, big results, where you try to get these small wins that sort of give you these big results. And I think it's important to get those wins Well, in order to get wins, I mean, you we all I think it's important to know where you're at now. So you can sort of understand like, Okay, well, I've improved in these areas. And
Philip Pape 15:45
I agree, I agree. Yeah, getting a baseline and having objective data and getting the wins and celebrating all all good stuff. People need to hear this. All right. So let's, let's move on to step two, which I think is stress, right? Yeah,
Brian Gryn 15:56
yeah, exactly. These aren't in any particular order. I mean, the clarity one sort of is, but these read, the rest of them aren't necessarily in any order, I think it depends on the person. So some people are very good at managing stress. So we don't necessarily need to touch on that. But if someone's not, this is definitely a pillar that's going to be you're gonna want to hit right away. Because stress is something that everyone has, it's just about managing it. And I think how to manage stress is maybe different for everybody. But I think if you can create quality routines around your life, I think that can help you manage it. So
Philip Pape 16:31
yeah, okay, so let's dig into some of what you mentioned, from a context perspective, because you said, you know, we can't reduce stress, we can only manage it. And I know what you mean, I did an episode recently, it was all about stress, and talking about chronic life stress. Now, there's so much out of your control. And as the stoics would say, like, who cares, let's just let's control we can so and of course, you can change your situation that's causing the stress and then reduce the stress. But most people are going through life with big things that are not easily changeable, you know, today or this week, like they have kids or you know, they have this this particular job or live in a certain place. So before we understand how to manage it, why is it so important? I mean, you know, I probably have talked about on this show many times, but from a weight management hormones well being like, what are the big reasons that we care about chronic stress on health?
Brian Gryn 17:21
Well, I mean, first of all, if you're in a fight or flight stress mode, like the majority of your time, you know, that's going to obviously raise cortisol. And cortisol is both can be a positive and a negative. And it sort of goes in a diet, diurnal state, like meeting diurnal rhythm throughout the day, right. So we'll have a little spike in cortisol in the morning. And then it should slowly taper off towards the evening. And I recently worked with a company called FDN, where we do like a saliva test. And we see these diurnal rhythms based on different individuals and where their stresses out throughout the day, sort of pretty cool in the morning, midday and evening. And then you have a sum from that a lot of times, if you go get blood work, it'll give you a sum. But I think what's important to understand is sort of that rhythm of cortisol and how it interacts throughout the day and goes up or down. But yeah, I mean, obviously, we're going to hold on to fat. And if our cortisol is our high, cortisol is high all day. And so we have to sort of manage that as best as possible. And I think, most importantly, understanding like, you need to have your own self care and take care of yourself, I think, especially the audience that I talked to is 40. Plus, a lot of times, you know, they're busy with their jobs and their kids, and they don't give time for themselves and self care. And you have to find time throughout the day for that, whether that's early in the morning, or later at night, whenever it is, I always tell people, you know, there's not a perfect time, but it's the time that you can do consistently for yourself, and whether that's 15 minutes first thing in the morning, or later on, I think that, you know, prioritizing that is really important. I
Philip Pape 19:04
agree. And I also know that that's an area that I'm always improving because people who are tend to be go getters also tend to prioritize, you know, getting stuff done over quote unquote, self care and quote unquote, stress. And there's also this misconception that you need to do some advanced mindfulness or meditation techniques or yoga or something like that. So let's let's dispel that and make it very simple and practical for people who are stressed and don't want to get stressed out by a stress relieving technique. What are like, what's the entry point? What's the stepladder to stress reduction techniques?
Brian Gryn 19:39
Well, I'll tell you that I am a yoga fan. But I don't necessarily think everyone is into yoga and I'm in a lot of my clients aren't. But I think if you can find like, I'll do five minute meditation in the morning. So if you can five, five minutes and start with that, I think that's a good place to start. And you can use an app, you can just sit In silence, I think that's not a bad place to start really, and and, you know, everyone, we can find five minutes. So I think that's a good place to start. I mean, I don't think it has to be anything groundbreaking. It doesn't have to be an hour class. But you know, nowadays, there's plenty of apps headspace, whatever the excetera, there's a lot of them that sort of can guide you through that, and at least give you just some time for yourself where you can just sit in your thoughts a little bit. Alright,
Philip Pape 20:25
so the way I worded the question, I always work my questions a little bit in a little bit of a leading fashion, sometimes unconsciously. But when I said advanced techniques like meditation, that's, that's a form of self talk or assumption that I'm using, right by saying it that way. And what you just said was, hey, stop making excuses, bro. Like, not just me, but everybody listening, it just takes five minutes, you can use an app, get it done, you just sit and be quiet. You know, in the morning, oftentimes, I go straight to my phone, I want to get all the notifications out of the way, right? Because it just annoys me.
Brian Gryn 20:54
I would say turn off your notifications. Yeah, well, I
Philip Pape 20:59
don't mean they wake me up. But you know, when you when I wake up, I check my email and stuff like that. But um, you know, not doing that, and just taking five minutes to just sit is great advice. Would you consider activities that you're already doing for other things health related, like strength training, walking to those still fall in the category of stress management? Or they have to be done a certain way to sort of count in that regard? No,
Brian Gryn 21:23
I would say that counts, for sure. I mean, yeah, there's no doubt that lifting is a stressor, but it also can help relieve stress as well. Right. So big irony there. Yeah. So I think it works both ways. You know, if you only have a certain amount of time in your day, you got to sort of prioritize, you know what you need most. And if you want to be efficient, and you got 20 minutes to 30 minutes, and you know, you'd rather not use some of that on meditation, then maybe you do something active going for a walk or or lifting.
Philip Pape 21:56
Last question about stress. You mentioned your, your journaling and your meditation. Do you ever have a time when the stress ramps up due to some acute activity that happens? Or you know, some situation happens, right? Or you see this with clients? And then is there can there be a go to activity or something you go to shortly thereafter to kind of bring that stress down?
Brian Gryn 22:18
Yeah, I mean, you're talking about something that can just be done anywhere, right? Like, you know, if you're in the car, or if you're somewhere, it's like, sometimes you just need like something to fall back on. And I actually had a gentleman, his name's Avi Greenberg. He's from New York, he works with individuals and coaches them on how to breathe, just breathe correctly, focus on that. And I did some sessions with him, actually, after I interviewed him. They were like, 45 minutes long. And we literally, it was like a zoom call based on breathing. You're like, oh, that doesn't sound but it was like at the end of the call, you know, I just felt like enlightened and less stress and everything. And I mean, so breathing is like this underrated thing that you can really dive deep into it. And I'm not saying you have to do like Wim Hof breathing, but you know, breathing in through your nose, even out through your mouth. I think, you know, nose breathing, obviously, is huge, becoming bigger and bigger now, like these mouth tape companies, but like, right, you know, you got your best filters in your nose. And so I think it's important to focus on that. But yeah, if you just need something go to, you know, is I would just say focusing on breath. Yeah,
Philip Pape 23:26
that's a good one. We did a session with So Alan, he's in our community did a an alternate nostril breathing session. Okay, that was very interesting because you get that flow through into one nostril out the other and it almost it's almost like a neti pot of air, so to speak. Yeah, flows through, it's very nice.
23:45
That's a Philippe and awfully for a long time. I don't know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.
Philip Pape 24:31
Alright, so then the next one, which is often tied together or related in many ways to that in terms of recovery is sleep. I think we know sleep is critical. Everyone emphasizes that point. And yet I still feel and I see with clients that it's extremely you know, we're under rested when it comes to sleep, both in terms of quantity and quality. And it affects a lot of things in our life. So tell us tell us more about that.
Brian Gryn 24:55
Yeah, I mean, sleep gosh, I mean, we could talk an hour on sleep as far as Improving and you know, insulin sensitivity, glucose metabolism, helping prevent weight gain. And one of the big things is also that can affect sleep, digestion. And I think sort of like, I like to try the action steps for people that sort of hit a lot of different things. And one of those things is making sure that you give yourself enough time to digest and you eat early enough in the day. And you're seeing studies come out like this chronal nutrition where if you've consumed most of your meals before a certain time, how that and you're in, you're allowed to digest the metabolize food earlier in the day, this can help on a number of fronts that I've already, you know, insulin sensitivity, but glucose metabolism, and just helping quality of sleep.
Philip Pape 25:44
I want to stay with that, because I feel like I've heard that three other times on podcasts just this week. And I want to emphasize it. Because Coincidentally, I had a big dinner with a group a couple of nights ago, and I posted like on social, some graphs of my, you know, my weight trend, but also my HRV and my resting heart rate. And, you know, it was like six 7pm It wasn't super late, but it was huge. It was huge. It was like a 2000 Calorie dinner. I mean, for me, that's, you know, pushing it. And so I slept through the night, but I didn't feel well rested, my HRV dropped, my resting heart rate went up, right. And it was like a significant variance from from the norm. And I posted that to show people like, here's the effect of eating too much close to dinner, because you're just digesting the heck out of it through the night. I've also heard protein, you know, almost like protein itself, because it takes more energy to digest, kind of shifting that earlier in the day, even though all those muscle heads are like no, I gotta get protein six times a day. Right? That and then the the drinking that drinking too close to bed. So I'm glad you bring that up. And I want people to hear this. Because that alone is kind of a simple change to impact sleep quality, what is your recommendation on that recommendation,
Brian Gryn 26:53
as far as like, I would say, establishing a time to cut off your eating window. You know, I used to be pretty big, like intermittent faster, I've cut back a little bit on that because I found I wasn't consuming enough or my like activity level and where I wanted to go get with goals within the in the weight room and, and things like that. So but one rule I've always stayed with was cutting off the time that I've done eating. Now I'm not saying I do this, like we were just on vacation. And you know, we did eat early, we're my wife. Luckily, my wife likes to eat early too. So we you know, we eat with the senior citizens around like 530 ish. And when families that have kids, so if you could cut off that and give yourself three to four hours to digest food, I think that can help quality of sleep. And we all know, sleeping will help with repair and muscle growth. And you know, obviously releasing growth hormones that aid and both of those things. So the biggest thing I would say first and foremost is picking a time for me. It's typically 630 to seven, I like to be done eating
Philip Pape 27:58
and drinking too. Or just just eating.
Brian Gryn 28:00
I'll drink. Maybe, you know, I used to be big into tea later. But I found that I was that was getting me up because I was keying a lot. Yeah. So I would say ideally, both would be great. Occasionally I'll have like, I don't know, carbonated water. You know, maybe I might have something a little bit later on. But I tried not drinking as well. I think that yeah, yeah, both would be great.
Philip Pape 28:22
I think that's a great technique. And I'm glad you know, just like you when you have guests on like it's almost like a selfish, like a coaching call away. Because I'm getting all these techniques and thinking about my own routine. And I don't know how many people listening are are snacking close to bed. And, you know, besides the whether or not that serves your goals or not like for me, I can eat a lot because I'm building muscle. And so sometimes I just don't have enough food, even when I'm done with dinner, and I just eat at like 8pm and then I go to bed at 930. And it's like, I'm used to that, because it's not a lot. But then I wonder if I just experiment with, you know, stop at seven after dinner and do that for a week and see what happens. You know, it's good advice. It's
Brian Gryn 29:01
a great rule of thumb, honestly, it's probably one of my top ones out of everything. I
Philip Pape 29:06
love it. Okay, that's a really good tip. Okay, so what would on nutrition, we've touched on it a little bit. You and I talked about it a lot last time and your podcast is kind of, you know, predicated on that given the title, but let's go with your principles and your philosophy overall, just so the audience knows where you're coming from. Yeah, so I mean, I know it's a loaded.
Brian Gryn 29:27
zealot. Ya know, I mean, I think my principles have like, changed through the years. I was low carb for a while, a little bit like you, I think, right? You went through sort of different stages of trying different things. But I think first and foremost is sort of, for every individual. It's like a sort of a self experimentation stage for everybody to try different ways of eating and sort of finding what works. I think it's important because you're going to hear different opinions about a balanced view about a carnivore about, you know, a vegetarian. And I think for For me, it's it's changed. I'm trying to consume more now. And I think that comes back to saying, Okay, well, let's track, right, let's understand what we're eating and how much we're eating. And then from there, just figuring out what works like one of the things I've used for myself and realized is my second meal a day, I find I don't, I don't need much, you know, like, I'll have a decent breakfast, which I used to not have. And I don't have that like, first thing, but let's say 910 o'clock, decent amount of protein, maybe some fruit, yogurt, something like that. And then my second meal, I find that I don't need as much. And then my third meal is maybe a touch on that is like the main meal. But I'm having that earlier, so I have time to digest it. And that is, that's what what has worked for me. So for most clients, I don't try to push one way or the other as far as like a certain style of eating, I think it's important to, you know, I know you're big into sort of this flexible eating, where it's not necessarily about being perfect, but it's just about being sustainable for the long term. And, you know, you're seeing a lot of like carnivore, this carnivore craze come. And I think a lot of these, quote, unquote, like diets work for a lot of people, because one, it's taking them off sort of that standard American diet and getting them away from a lot of foods and ultra processed things that aren't serving them very well. And going to more of a whole foods diet where it's creating satiety, which I think is really important. I had Marty Kendall, I don't know, if he's been on your podcast, Marty Kendall, he does a lot of great writing around satiety, and how if you can sort of lead with that, I think that can really help sort of balance your day and make it so you don't have to feel like you're over consuming. And you know, getting your arms around satiety is not easy. But you know, for most people in a lot of times, that's obviously prioritizing protein. But there are a lot certain carbs, even like potato that are have been shown to be highly satisfying, and sort of keep you from snacking all throughout the day. And so leading with that, I think it's really important and wrapping your arms around satiety is a good sort of place to start.
Philip Pape 32:12
Yeah, I mean, in the intro, I said, we're kindred spirits, there's definitely a lot of this we agree on. Because we're agreeing on principles. We're not we're not, you know, dicking around with specific protocols, because there is no specific protocol for any anybody is individual. And the idea of self experimentation. You know, I had never thought of the fact that all the diets I had tried and you know, my clients tried and women try 120 diets in their life, on average, something like that, really. It's huge. It's vastly more than what men cycled through just, from what I've understood, we can now reframe those as positive experiences that taught us about ourselves. I like that, right? I have a lot of clients now coming off of carnivores, I'm gonna call it who, who said, Look, I liked all the food, and I love to eat meat and eggs, and you know, butter, I felt great after I switched to it. And I got some decent results. But I just couldn't stick with it. And that's, and that was the big sticking point was the sustainability piece. And you'll you'll see all these arguments about some of these diets like Well, no, you know, all the short term, blood markers and health markers all great or better, or this and that. And it's kind of taken out of context, like you said, with what Bill, you're changing about 50 variables when you switch from the standard American diet to any other diet. So let's pick the best thing that works for us. satiety also, totally agree that that is huge, especially during especially during fat loss, right, when you have less calories to make it easier. But even when you're not, you can get hungry even when you're building, right. And satiety leads to like you said, choosing protein, choosing fiber choosing, you know, nutrient dense foods anyway, I'm just commenting all the stuff you said because it's good. Well, and
Brian Gryn 33:51
you know, one thing I'll say that when I was doing some more fasting, what it taught me to understand about my body was like true hunger. What that was, because what I've noticed, going back to consuming more and eating Lexus 83 whole meals is I'm craving more, which not necessarily a bad thing. But when you do do bouts of fasting, you sort of I think you sort of get in tune with your hunger cues. And, like, understand that, like a lot of times your body's just going to creature you're a creature of habit, right? So if you're used to eating at these times, your body's going to give you these cues to eat then I think sometimes it's good to just mix it up and just say okay, what would happen if I just skip a meal? And how to how would I feel and like just understanding and being more self aware of like your hunger as opposed to just being okay, I'm just going to eat the second I get like this urge to eat and you just sort of lose in touch of of what really is. What really is hunger and what's just sort of your body being used to eating all day long.
Philip Pape 34:52
Yeah, and I wonder how long it takes to get to true hunger because I've never done more than like a day and a half fast. Have you done Unlike three day fast,
Brian Gryn 35:01
you know, I was never Yeah, never a big long term one. But yes, something like you i At times I did like a day and a half to two in that range never really much more than that. And, you know, I don't necessarily advise it for most people, but just at least if you have never done it, at least sort of give yourself some space between meals, I think it's important unless you're like, you're really in a building mode, and you want to eat like six times a day. But if you're not, you know, giving yourself space between meals, and then I like to call it like, like, almost like bumper, like, you know, what is it bumper bowling where you get the, on each side of that? Sure. Yeah, yeah. So there's Yeah, yeah, was it? Yeah, bowling with bumpers, it's just eating with bumpers, right. Don't eat too close to bedtime, and don't eat the second you get up. Like, I like to start with those sort of like just rules of thumb right off the bat. And then you can sort of adjust it as you as you go.
Philip Pape 35:56
I mean, that's another good tip in there is to schedule your schedule your meals, at least come up with a routine and have those, you know, quote, unquote, we call them rules, but they're really just your own guidelines at work for you. You mentioned with the fast what was I going to say there? Oh, what just a funny thing that came to mind. Like, a colonoscopy is like a forest one day fast to prepare for it. So take advantage of that if you're over 40. And, or actually, I guess it's 50. But I've had mine earlier. But anyway, the fasting, I heard something recently about how a lot of us, myself included, when I've done these one day fast, it's been a long time, I can't even imagine doing them anymore. But I used to do them regularly, like once a week, where you get this set, you get a little bit of hunger. That's not kind of you realize it's not real hunger, right? Your body says, Okay, you're not feeding me turns off the hunger signals. And then you get this sort of clarity, this interesting clarity that you get. No, I did hear something recently that they've studied that phenomenon and found that that part of that is, is pure perception. It's like a pure mental thing. Really. Which is interesting. Which I guess it doesn't matter. Right? If you perceive it that way, it is that way for you. But But anyway, I just I'm going off on a tangent because there you can learn a lot from fasting as what you're saying about not only hunger, but other things, too, about your yourself, including what do you do with yourself when you're not constantly eating? Right?
Brian Gryn 37:14
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You don't realize how much it takes up of your of your day. But yeah, I mean, I think it's a good tool. Right? I think it's a tool. You know, for example, I just came back from traveling, we were on the plane, didn't really want to eat my plane food or airport food. So you know what, it's a decent time to do a little bit of fasting. Nothing crazy. But you know, I think if you can sort of look at and find times where you're going to be around food that's not going to serve, you can use those times as as good sort of testing times to the fast a little bit. That's
Philip Pape 37:46
a great point. Yeah, yeah. If anybody is used to getting into that flow state where you're working, and you just time goes by, you can go hours and hours and hours without eating and not being hungry. And you realize it is it's more of a habitual thing than a real hormonal thing. Is there any anything else about nutrition? You know, because again, a lot of what we're gonna say, the audience has probably heard from me too, but myths or hot topics or anything going on these days? It's like top of mind that you wanted to share? Yeah,
Brian Gryn 38:16
I mean, there's a lot of I guess there's a lot of myths. Probably that been debunked eventually. But you know, I think there was a recent one regarding protein distribution throughout the day. Oh, yeah. The 100 grams study? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you've touched on that. I haven't yet.
Philip Pape 38:31
I mean, not on the show itself. It's a good one. Did you want to talk about it? You know, it's
Brian Gryn 38:36
funny, I was just looking through it. I probably don't know enough to sort of comment on it. But to the listeners. Yeah. There was a recent study done on what was it testing, like, protein distribution throughout the day, and whether it matters, you know, if you have a certain amount for each meal, right, right. It measured I believe, like, 25 grams versus, like, 100 grams. Yeah. versus zero. Yeah. versus zero. Yeah. So I can't say I'll comment too much about it, because I haven't gone through it all. But what I think the conclusion was, was the fact that you can consume more protein than you think and your body will will be able to handle it. And not necessarily just like, not absorb, I guess, I don't know. I I have to look a little bit more into it. Did you? Yeah, I did.
Philip Pape 39:20
I didn't want to take away your thunder. But since you brought it up, we might as well like I actually coincidentally went to a live training that Bill Campbell did last night. Oh, his body by Science Review that his subscribers get access to these things. And he talks about the exact things if I hadn't seen that I know less about it. What they found is from zero to 25 grams, you get like 25% more muscle synthesis from 25 to 100 grams, you get another 30%. And so there's no upper limit is what they've what they've determined to how much protein you have in one bolus in one meal. And the postprandial, as they call it muscle protein synthesis simply extends longer and longer, the more protein you have, that's That's it. And past studies that looked at like 20 and 40 grams, actually were in line with this. It's just that they were kind of misinterpreted. And some of the studies didn't look past like a couple hour window. So we didn't know. But yeah, so the conclusion is like getting your total protein and how you distributed almost doesn't matter.
Brian Gryn 40:19
Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, for people who, and that not to say that I'm a big fan of like, one or two meals a day, for some people it works, they can consume a decent amount of protein, and their body will be able to utilize utilize it as opposed to thinking they have to eat it six times a day, or four times, four times a day was sort of, I think, with some of the protein experts out there, I think that was like, sort of the ideal amount of meals for growth.
Philip Pape 40:48
I mean, if you if I went back in time a year ago, that's what I would have been saying, like, now you got to eat maybe four or five times a day to get the optimum, you know, right? Not really not really. That's a great example he brought up of the science just evolving, and the evidence can, you know, taking us in the right direction, it's good. So the next one on your list of the six, six principles, we're up to number five now is meal timing, which is I look at that good segue, we were talking about time. So I mean, meal timing can influence a lot of things. But I also wonder if some people, you know, put it above other things that are more important, like getting total protein, but what are your thoughts on meal timing? Why is it important, and so on? Well,
Brian Gryn 41:28
I think one of the things I we talked touched on it a little bit is the fact that we're more insulin sensitive early in the day, and our muscles, which means our muscles are better able to absorb and utilize glucose, as opposed to later in the day where we become less and less insulin sensitive. So I think that's an important thing to understand. I mean, I don't think it's like the end all and if you have to eat if you're working all day, and you have to eat later, you know, it is what it is. But I think it's another sort of tool that if there's a day where you feel like you're going to have a bigger meal, perhaps you have that meal earlier on, because your body is more insulin sensitive, as opposed to eating that later on in the day. But again, I don't necessarily think it's like the end all. But it's interesting research that that is around eating later versus earlier in the day. Okay, that's
Philip Pape 42:18
good to know. And that's related to cortisol right and related to. So now we're also talking about carbon take is your general recommendation, again, knowing that this is maybe not a huge thing that moves the needle, just to shift your carbs earlier in the day. Yeah,
Brian Gryn 42:33
I think if you're going to Yeah, if you're going to eat, especially if you're going to like simple carbs, or sweets, you know, you're better off eating them in the morning or early afternoon, when you are more insulin sensitive than then late at night. So I don't think and I'm not necessarily anti carb, but I think if you could just focus your carbs on, you know, like fruits, vegetables, maybe, you know, boiled potatoes or something like that, I think, or even, you know, rice from white rice from time to time, I think, you know, that's a good way to go about it, as opposed to like, the breads and the pastas and the pastries, you know, and if you're going to have those have it earlier on. So have breakfast in the morning. But you know, again, from that standpoint, I you know, I had like Dr. Don layman on and he talked about the importance of getting that, that first meal to have a high protein meal. So, again, we all know that protein is important. And if you can start the day with a higher protein meal, but also, you know, if you're going to have carbs, I probably have them in the middle of the day. Not too late. Yeah,
Philip Pape 43:35
I'm not going to show you my food logs, man. You're gonna see a lot of carbs in there.
Brian Gryn 43:42
No, I'm not anti carb.
Philip Pape 43:44
I know. Some of the foods you mentioned though. Yeah, I like all the carbs. Let's just put it that way. Just every type is a friend of mine. Oh, okay. You know, other than you know added sugars I'm not a huge fan of if you can keep those those down a bit. But there's also a workout and training window aspect is that when you go into that as well in your in your book about meal timing that for training? Well, I
Brian Gryn 44:09
would say that unless like you're trying to train or your bodybuilding and for competition, I think the best time to workout is that what works for you? I don't I don't think there's a perfect time. I mean, I was just on vacation. I worked out mornings in the mornings that because before the day got going, because I wanted to get it done. And you know, my wife was sleeping so I just got it done then and I was in a fasted state and the workouts were you know, we're solid, you know when when my normal routine is, is middle of the day workouts, but again, whatever works, whatever is sustainable for the long term, but as far as working out, I think it's easy to get caught up in this all these details around the perfect time to workout but I think it's the time that's that's most consistent.
Philip Pape 44:54
Yeah, I would agree and it might change you know, as your schedule changes. I used to work out in the middle of the day as well. Now workout in the morning. And it's funny because I'll hear arguments four different times a day. And even those don't agree like, well workout at night because you get a little boost in performance, you know, because you're, I don't know why. But you know, you've been up your cortisol curve has dropped a bit, you're well fed, whatever the reason. But then other research that says, Well, if you do it in the morning, there's these huge mental health benefits that actually translate to the rest of the day and better nutrient utilization, and then it ends up making you perform just as well. Like, just do what works for you. That's where we get into the minutiae going back to your opening, right? Yeah,
Brian Gryn 45:34
yeah, yeah, by the time that works, and even if it's a short micro workout, I talk about micro workouts all the time, I think, you know, you know, something's better than nothing. And I don't think you need to be in the gym for an hour and a half. Yeah,
Philip Pape 45:48
something's better than nothing. Well, so that segues to the last step, which is your activity upgrade you call it, which is an interesting term I want you to explain, but then we can get into micro workouts and effective training. And, you know, for the older guys, to what what this all means. Yeah,
Brian Gryn 46:03
you know, one of the things I found through like COVID was creative ways to to get the workout done. And, you know, in your basement or in your home, because every one wasn't going anywhere. And so I think that these micro workouts sort of became started to get popular then, and I've had him on my podcast podcast a few times, Dr. Jake wish, he has this x three bar, which is cool, like I got really into the x three, over COVID. Now I do it from time to time, it's not every workout, I do like traditional lifting as well. But one of the things I learned from doing that is, gosh, I would do, you know, short sort of upper body workouts and lower body workouts, I sort of split it like that. And, and they weren't long workouts, but I found that I was building muscle. And one of the things that I learned was also using resistance bands was a little bit easier on the joints. And so I've implemented that with a lot of the 40 plus year old individuals that I work with, because, you know, I don't think everyone's meant to like necessarily, not everyone's meant to like benchpress, I don't think I think especially as you get older, you know, might be tough on the shoulders, the joints. And if you can find a better way to maybe utilize different tools in the weight room to help with joint integrity, I think, you know, resistance bands is something that I never used to use. And now I use it from time to time. And it's it's effective.
Philip Pape 47:26
And that this is consistent with your principle of the whole theme of the show, which is, if you're not going to go into the gym and do a benchpress, you might as well do something that's just about as effective. That's not a benchpress like it's the zero versus doing it. And the shoulders and all these other connective tissues. People can you know, people have issues with those, and they have surgeries, and maybe they may have an injury or whatever, I've had shoulder surgery, and I'm seeing how that affects different things. And you can get creative, you get different grips and bars and whatnot. But right? I do, I used to be a little more dogmatic about dogmatic myself, and like you said, there's many ways to Rome and many roads to Rome, so to speak with this, you call it an activity upgrade. So tell me about that.
Brian Gryn 48:09
I call it an activity upgrade. I guess that depends on the individual. Okay. But if this is some of that's coming from not doing much at all, obviously any activity or work, you know, it'll it'll help. You know, I think that if it's someone that's more experienced, then it's then it's wrapping your arms around, you know, building muscle as you get older, which obviously can be more difficult, but I'm sure with you, you see with your clients, and Andy Baker, who I've had on my podcast talks about being really you can build muscle, no matter I mean, he has I know, he's got some clients that are really up there. And they're, you know, deadlifting and doing things that most 20 year olds can't do. So I think it depends on the goal of the individual, but the upgrade is finding a way to get the time efficient workout in. So it sort of takes the excuses out. And that's one of the reasons why I like you know, some type of like 20 minute workout that that we can establish. So we'll try to build a routine in 20 minutes. And you know, they have to be efficient. And it's maybe not like they're not like training to be a bodybuilder, but they're just training to find a way to stay consistent, and still build muscle in a short period of time.
Philip Pape 49:15
I love it, man. So to two things came to mind now that you brought this up. One is the idea of the short workouts, I think, I don't know if it was when I was talking to Dr. Eric helms or who it was, but the question often comes up what can I split my workouts for example, like what if I do do want to do an hour long, full body workout, but I just don't have the time? And maybe I have a home gym? Because it's harder. You don't want to like drive to a gym twice a day usually? And the answer is not only Yes, but a maybe it is slightly more effective to split your split, split them up because you have been in recovery and you can go all go all out in that second session. Whereas if it was on the second half of the first session, you'd be fatigued. And so I wanted to point that out. It's it's it's great advice from a efficiency and performance perspective, but then also the time efficient work. Coutts, Brian Borstein is coming on. And he's a huge fan of intensity techniques. And when he talked about upgrading your activity, I thought, Oh, that's good way to think about, like always improving and personal growth, even if you are an intermediate lifter, who does all those moves, and you just want to keep getting better. And you want to save time, what can you do, right, and so like the mile reps, and the drop sets, and all that fun stuff comes into play. The point is, listen to what Brian's saying here. And like, Don't make excuses, there is something that will work for you, whatever level you're starting from. So I love your message on that. Yeah.
Brian Gryn 50:32
And I mean, as far as improving, one of the things I've been doing a little bit more, which I never used to do is log my workouts. And we talked about that maybe on my podcast, and you know, you can use an app, or you can write it in a journal, but I think logging helps it sort of understand sort of where you're at, I never used to do that. But then like, the next time you go into the gym, even if you increase it by a little bit, two and a half pounds, I know you can also increase it other ways, right? By by rep range and things like that. But just finding that variable that you want to increase. And I think it helps get you into, like a healthy habit of just creating those wins when we talked about right, like it makes you feel a bit Oh, last time I did 185 10 times. And now I just did 190 for 10 times, you know, and so I think those creating those small wins, helps motivation and helps you coming back and sort of get you going to stay consistent and you know, improve every time. And people
Philip Pape 51:29
need to hear that I still get questions like, Oh, should I log my workouts and I'm flabbergasted right? Because I just assume that you're gonna log your workouts. But I guess when you go back in time, and think you know, when you're in your 20s, going to the gym and just say I'm gonna do upper body today. And next time I'm going to do lower body and say you weren't logging, you're missing out on a huge opportunity for tracking your and measuring your outcome, like you said, and then improving, getting the win getting motivated. Hey, look, I'm looking 10 more pounds. I really want to go to the gym again to get another five pounds. Good stuff, man. All right, we're wrapping out on time here. So I do like to ask a question of all guests. And that is because we did go through your six pillars, your six principles. What one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Brian Gryn 52:10
Well, how about this? I asked everyone on my podcast, what one tip would you give that individual who's looking to get their body back or her mind potentially what it once was 1520 years ago, or 10 years ago. So I mean, I for me, I think a big habit that's really influenced my life, in the most positive manner is daily walks. So simple, everyone, for the most part can do it. And I think it's a great way to get out in nature, maybe get some sun if you're not in Chicago, and you're somewhere else where the sun actually comes out. But you still get sun even with the clouds, right? And we talk about your sort of diurnal rhythms throughout the day. You know, cortisol is one thing that, you know, sort of starts higher in the morning, and then slowly drifted towards night. And I think getting up in the morning can help that, and also help you with quality sleep. So morning walks, I love if you can't, if the morning doesn't work, I always say your best bet next after that is walking after meals and help with blood sugar regulation and help with digestion. And it's just yeah, I mean, it's just something I have two dogs, so I'm sort of forced into that. But even when I go on vacation, I still do it. And it just got me into that habit of doing it getting up and going putting on your gym shoes. And so I like to find things that are that are sort of excuse proof. And and do them.
Philip Pape 53:34
I love it. Yeah. And you even opened up the excuse people make about, like, if it's cold or whatever, embrace it, I hate Right. Like if people ask me that they say, What do you do when it's cold or rainy day? I said, Well, why? What does that mean? You can't walk just because it's cooler, throw on a nice big coat, you know, enjoy the freshness of it all and the smell the rain or whatever, you know, like find a positive way to do that. If not, you're gonna be walking around your house a lot. And that that'll that'll do the job too, I guess.
Brian Gryn 54:00
I mean, yeah, I guess that's, that would be a second. So I'm looking right now, I'm going to take my dogs out after this. And I'm looking at it, it's raining. But you know, we go most of the time the dogs don't mind unless it's like really cold. And then and then their paws can't last last long time because of the assault and all that. But like, I mean, it's 40 and raining. You know, you put some layers on you put a hood on and you go and you can happen. I think it's and I think just goes back to just the positive like putting in positive habits and creating that positive momentum for the day small wins. And like I was just reading limitless Jim quick. And they he just talks about even just like making your bed first thing in the morning. Like okay, you just did something right like that. It's creating momentum in a positive manner. Because, you know, I talk about this and there's another great book called and I'm drawing a blank but time will either expose you or or be on your side. And so it could be On your side if you if you start doing positive things that that'll that'll serve you and your health,
Philip Pape 55:04
we'll leave it on that message. It's a great message, Brian. I had a lot of fun talking with you today. And I want listeners to be able to find you. So tell us where they can learn more about you and your
Brian Gryn 55:14
work best place. It's just Brian green.com, sort of the hub for everything. And yeah, I'm on Instagram at my handle has changed a bit, but it's Brian, underscore Men's Health is by Instagram handle. And, yeah, you can find everything stepladder system, my book, it's all there, both in PDF and in self cover. Yeah,
Philip Pape 55:36
and I encourage everyone to check those out. I'll throw those in the show notes, Brian green.com. Or at Brian underscore Men's Health and I'll even include the link directly to the stepladder system. Make it easy for folks. And of course your podcast. Get Lean eat clean. I'll make sure the link is right and let people know. Thanks again for coming on, man Bill. Thanks for having me. I loved it. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 154: Stop Medical Gaslighting Against Women (How to Self-Advocate for Your Health)
Have you ever felt dismissed by a healthcare professional when discussing your symptoms? What strategies can women use to advocate for themselves in the face of gaslighting? We two women from the Wits & Weights community, Elizabeth and Brienne, who have firsthand experience with medical gaslighting and will share their stories. Liz, a medical professional herself, will share her journey of fighting for a hypothyroidism diagnosis at a young age when doctors didn't believe it was possible. And Bree will detail her decade-long battle with mysterious symptoms before finally getting to the root of her hormone issues. They also talk about the incredible resilience and self-advocacy of women like Liz and Bree, who had to fight for the care they deserved.
Have you ever felt dismissed by a healthcare professional when discussing your symptoms? What strategies can women use to advocate for themselves in the face of gaslighting?
WARNING: This episode may contain discussions of medical trauma, sexual assault, and gaslighting within the healthcare system. If you're sensitive to these topics or feeling vulnerable, please listen with care, or feel free to skip this episode.
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) invited two women from the Wits & Weights community, Elizabeth and Brienne, who have firsthand experience with medical gaslighting and will share their stories. Liz, a medical professional herself, will share her journey of fighting for a hypothyroidism diagnosis at a young age when doctors didn't believe it was possible. And Bree will detail her decade-long battle with mysterious symptoms before finally getting to the root of her hormone issues. They also talk about the incredible resilience and self-advocacy of women like Liz and Bree, who had to fight for the care they deserved.
If you've ever had a doctor make you doubt your own reality, if you've ever been made to feel like your pain wasn't real or your concerns weren't valid, this episode is for you. As a nutrition coach, Philip supports everyone's complete agency and advocacy of their health.
If you ARE a healthcare provider, we hope this conversation will be a call to action to ensure you're listening to, hearing, and validating what your patients are telling you. It's time for women to be heard, believed, and properly cared for the way we all want to be.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
4:14 How they found the Wits & Weights community
7:03 Elizabeth's story of hypothyroidism at a young age
12:44 Brienne's decade-long journey before hormone issues were identified
16:30 The emotional toll of having health concerns repeatedly dismissed
26:17 Strategies for self-advocacy and pushing for proper testing/diagnosis
29:01 Red flags and signs that a patient is being medically gaslit
38:12 Advice for listeners facing similar struggles with being heard by doctors
43:36 Thoughts on holistic and functional doctors (alternative / complementary medicine)
48:15 The power of sharing stories to validate others and spark change
55:45 How to connect with Liz and Brienne
56:15 Outro
Episode resources:
Brienne on IG – @ModernMountainHomestead
Liz on IG – @fitnurseliz3
In the realm of healthcare, women have historically faced an uphill battle when it comes to receiving accurate diagnoses and treatment. Our latest podcast episode dives deep into the personal narratives of two women, Liz and Bree, who have each navigated the complexities of the healthcare system and emerged as powerful advocates for themselves and others.
Liz's journey began as a tenacious medical professional fighting to validate her hypothyroidism diagnosis. She encountered dismissive doctors who were reluctant to listen to her concerns, a story that is all too common for many women seeking medical care. Despite the hurdles, Liz's perseverance led to a diagnosis that enabled her to take control of her health and well-being.
Bree, with her passion for research, encountered similar challenges. For years, she battled to unravel the truth behind her hormone issues, facing medical professionals who minimized her symptoms and concerns. It took a decade-long battle for Bree to find the answers she needed, demonstrating the critical importance of self-advocacy in the face of medical dismissal.
These candid tales highlight the need for a healthcare system that is responsive and respectful to the needs of patients, particularly women who are often underrepresented and unheard. The episode discusses the systemic biases that contribute to medical gaslighting and the detrimental effects it has on patients' trust in the medical system. It serves as a powerful reminder that individuals must trust their intuition and persist in their pursuit of accurate healthcare.
Moreover, the episode addresses the irony of a system where doctors are compensated regardless of patient outcomes, prompting a critical examination of the patient-doctor dynamic. Through Liz and Bree’s experiences, we learn about recognizing red flags and navigating medical advocacy, equipping listeners with the knowledge to make informed healthcare decisions.
The podcast also explores holistic healthcare, including personal anecdotes about breaking away from conventional treatments in pursuit of wellness. This episode is not only a call to action for patients to become more engaged in their healthcare journey but also a beacon for healthcare providers to refine their approach to patient care.
As the discussion wraps up, it underscores the transformative journey of self-improvement and health as we age. The stories shared are a testament to the fact that feeling better in our 40s than in previous decades is not only possible but achievable through advocacy, determination, and a willingness to explore all avenues of health and well-being.
In conclusion, this episode of our podcast serves as an inspiring guide for anyone seeking to overcome the challenges of medical gaslighting and advocate for their health. It is a compelling narrative of resilience, empowerment, and the relentless pursuit of better health that resonates with anyone who has ever felt sidelined by the healthcare system.
By sharing these stories, we hope to foster a community of informed and empowered individuals who can confidently navigate the healthcare maze and advocate for the care they deserve. We invite our listeners to join us on this journey toward a more responsive, patient-centered healthcare experience.
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Transcript
Liz 00:00
The trick is finding someone who will also listen and take your, you know, personal suggestion of this is what I'm finding, and this is the homework I've done and can't we just try it? And sometimes they say yes, and so you're like, but were those other times still valid like whereas I still gaslit yesterday but today you're appropriate it's it can be really such a mind game,
Brienne 00:20
I really feel like that's how it should work with medical professionals is that it really should be a collaborative experience because they have a lot of knowledge and expertise and things they can bring to the table and they kind of hold the keys to the gate when it comes to a lot of the testing and prescriptions and a lot of these other things that you want to have access to in order to have this you know, elevated sense of wellness. It should be collaborative, because it's still my body.
Philip Pape 00:43
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Before we start the episode, a quick disclaimer this episode may contain discussions of medical trauma, sexual assault and gaslighting within the healthcare system. We'll be talking about experiences of having serious medical issues dismissed or misdiagnosed by doctors and the long term impacts this has had on the well being of our guests. If you're sensitive to these topics, or feeling vulnerable, please listen with care or feel free to skip this episode. As always, if you're struggling with your physical or mental health, please reach out for support from a trusted friend, family member or qualified professional Wits & Weights community Welcome to another very special episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we'll be tackling a surprisingly common but extremely overlooked issue related to your health and fitness, the epidemic of medical gaslighting against women. Now far too many women, many of my own life that I've heard from have had their symptoms dismissed their concerns minimized and their intuition about their own bodies disregarded by the very professionals they turn to for help. This is what we mean by gaslighting, which is basically just not believing what someone says, and maybe trying to convince them they're crazy or ignorant or uneducated or misinformed. And the consequences of this gaslighting can be profound, leading to delay diagnoses, worsening health, and a very deep erosion of trust in the medical system and doctors in general. So today, I'm very excited to have invited on two women from our community, Elizabeth and Brianne, who have first hand experience with medical gaslighting, and will share their stories. Liz is a medical professional herself, she's going to share her journey of fighting for a hypothyroidism diagnosis at a young age when doctors didn't believe it was possible for that before. And Bree will detail her decade long battle with mysterious symptoms before finally getting to the root of her hormone issues. So through these experiences, we'll examine the I'll say insidious, disturbing and unbelievable, very unbelievable often ways that gaslighting can manifest in healthcare, the systemic biases that allow it to persist, and the toll it takes on women's physical and emotional well being. But it's not all negative. We're going to talk about the incredible resilience, self advocacy of women like Liz and Bree, who fought and fought and fought for the care they deserved. So if you've ever had a doctor make you doubt your own reality, if you've ever been made to feel like your pain wasn't real, or your concerns weren't valid, this episode is for you. I am not a health care provider. But as a nutrition coach, I want everyone listening to have complete agency and advocacy over their health. And I figured inviting a couple amazing women on to do it would be a better way to put that across them than me saying it. And if you're listening and you are a health care provider, we hope this conversation will be a call to action to ensure you're listening to hearing and validating what your patients are telling you. It's time for women to be heard, believed and properly cared for the way we all want to be. Now, let's meet and hear the women of the hour. Liz and Bree, welcome to the show. Ladies.
Liz 04:11
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Philip Pape 04:14
So I want to start off on a light note. Let's start with you, Liz No, no particular order. I just want to know how you found our community. And you know what, why, why you're here today.
Liz 04:23
So I love podcasts. I have a wide prep plethora of podcasts that I listened to, and I was looking for something that would help me level up my nutrition and, you know, weight training and different information. And I love the evidence based perspective. I'm sort of a dork in that region. And so I want the real rationale behind things. And so I happen upon your podcast and yeah, no looking back now.
Philip Pape 04:50
I love it. Yeah. And I seem to attract you know, curious people like you just are trying to figure it out and cut through all the noise out there which is just there's a lot of it right? a dork that appeals to beat dork nerd geek. I'll put me in those categories.
Liz 05:04
I'm okay with it.
Philip Pape 05:06
And same question to you, Bree. How did you find our community?
Brienne 05:09
I'm glad to know I'm in nerd nerd territory i That's, that's my jam. Like all good podcasts love stories, they found your podcast through a podcast, or you are a guest on Karen Martel's podcast, which is called the hormone solution. Now it used to be called something else. Yeah. And I had found her podcast through searching for answers and a myriad of health issues that I wasn't getting answers to, in the way that I had hoped. And so when looking for my own information came across hers. And she had gotten kind of down the rabbit hole on a lot of her episodes, and then came across one where she had you on. And immediately it was, it kind of clicked for me because the idea of being evidence based not evidence bound, that's 100%, my jam and where I like to live I my research and data nerd. So that was very intriguing to me. And I knew that she was going on to your podcast as well. So it kind of followed my way on over there. And very quickly found like this was like, this was a good community. This was something that I could connect to, it felt very, very welcoming to be in a space that was based off of research and data and not bound to the party line, so to speak of the fitness and health world. Awesome.
Philip Pape 06:15
Yeah, no, it's amazing. Yeah. Karen, Karen is great, too, by the way, and I know a lot of people kind of we found each other, or people found each other through that show. So we hooked up again recently. And then you and I had a call. It was a while back was probably like early 2023. Right? Something like that.
Brienne 06:29
Yeah, I wouldn't say it was like summer fall of 2023. Yeah.
Philip Pape 06:35
Okay, yeah. No, I can't I can't keep track of time. Okay, cool. So now that everyone's met you, we're gonna get into a little bit of gaslighting and stuff and what it looks like because I think I'm sure people are listening. Some folks are very experienced with what this means whether it's women or men or men supporting women. Others may be like, What is this? Because when we brought up the topic, I know I had a few people say, What are you talking about? What do you mean by gaslighting? And I think it happens a lot of people even when they don't have a term for it. So let's let's again, start with Liz, your your experience, right? Can you just share an overview of this experience with hypothyroidism, maybe how the doctors didn't initially believe it could be happening at your age, and we'll go from there. Yeah, so
Liz 07:17
I was about eight years old, when I suddenly gained 20 pounds in the span of a year, which if you don't know, pediatric, or kids, that's a lot of weight, that probably be a lot of weight, even for an adult in a year. I also had some other symptoms I had thinning hair had a lot of cold sensitivity, I had dry hands that were so dry, they would crack and bleed. And I was eating and playing the same amount as my sister, who was three years older, and she had none of the symptoms that I did. And so fortunate for me, my mom is a nurse, and she actually also has Hashimotos hypothyroid itis. And she took me to the provider, you know, I was, you know, still like playing and running and trying to sort of keep up and cope. But she could see that I was struggling to and so she had her own suspicions. While it was unusual that you would have hypothyroidism, she encouraged the doctor to administer blood tests to see, you know, could that be the answer? And they were very adamant that it was more likely that I was doing something else outside of outside of what she was telling them, you know, could I be hiding candy? Could I be you know, doing something else that would be causing these, this awakening. And she was like, There's no way I know my kid. So you know, great to have a wonderful advocate on my side. And of course the nurse helps. Lo and behold, they finally did do some blood tests. And they found my TSH was over 100, which is pretty staggering. And so you know, fortunate enough that you just keep tagging, tagging them with questions, and I need an answer and being very persistent, helped get that diagnosis at that time.
Philip Pape 09:00
Now, when I hear stories, I guess I mean, people shake their head, I shake my head every day when I hear stuff like, what what is it that? I mean, you're eight, right? So there's a certain trajectory when you're a kid, I mean, I have kids who are now 10 and 12. And yeah, there's the charts, right, the weight gain charts and stuff like that. So first question is, were you far off on that chart in terms of like an outlier? Or was it somewhat within the range? Potentially? I
Liz 09:23
was definitely an outlier on the growth chart, or wait, yeah. Okay. And
Philip Pape 09:27
how did they so without your mom having advocated for you, do you recall? Did she tell you the stories about did the doctors say this was an issue or bring it up as a concern in the first place? You
Liz 09:40
know, I think that it was sort of like oh, your daughter's overweight and move on. versus you know, is there anything else going on that could be a problem and I it's funny because I think back to about you know, my hands were cracking and bleeding and they gave me lotion for it. They prescribed lotion for it for exactly the band aid for the pro problem when, you know, I continue to say that's really not helping, it's not doing anything like what else could it be? So definitely, there was a lot of ignoring all the signs that sort of you have to bring them together to get the clinical picture of me as a patient at eighth. Yeah.
Philip Pape 10:14
And ask questions too, because I could imagine, like, I've had clients who will, you know, say, x is x is happening. And I'm thinking, okay, the root cause could be, you know, A, B, or C, but let me ask questions, at least to get the data. Who did did the doctor ask questions? Or was it just boom? Like, check the box? Let's move on. Yeah,
Liz 10:33
I recall a lot of box checking, you know, not really willing to get in depth on the answers. And I think, you know, that's part of a larger discussion about like, medical care in general. And I think that's why we find a lot of medical gaslighting that, do we even have the time as providers to stop and ask questions. Is that built into their day? No. So they're trying to, you know, survive. And I think that we as patients are the victims of that sometimes, you
Philip Pape 11:02
make a great point that doctors are a product of a system, right? And, and the system may be the root cause. But if that system exists, we need to be aware of it to know what the consequences for us and maybe, maybe not rely so much on what we think their doctors can and will do, and maybe just assume it's not going to happen, sadly, right? Because that's the state we're in? What was the impact of finally getting the diagnosis, then you got the appropriate diagnosis, they finally did the blood work, which I'm curious if this kind of blood work should just be done on a regular basis. But I understand you don't want to like over test for things. What was the impact from that point, like, just tell us about that?
Liz 11:39
Staggering. So you know, the different than, like, feeling sluggish, and tired and cold, and you know, having no appetite, even when you want to go run and play and do all of those things? You know, it was a big difference for me as a child at eight. And it has been an interesting trajectory over the last 30 something or 20, something years trying to continue to stay well, because hypothyroidism can be such a roller coaster. So I feel like it's sort of set me on a path very early to, you know, be in tune with my body and understand what feels good and what feels not good for me. And really being able to just kind of keep getting better along the way has, it's made all the difference. Awesome.
Philip Pape 12:22
Okay, I want to own a turn a brief story, and then kind of go back and forth. And you're juggling to both of you here with the two stories, but what what will be interesting to see is the similarities. And then also, when I come back to you, Liz, we'll probably get into, you know, later on, like, how can the listener benefit specifically with understanding things like hypothyroidism, which is quite common, and maybe even Hashimotos? Since you said, your mom had that, and we get into that. So Bree, you mentioned that you had like almost a decade of gaslighting Share, share with us the symptoms you had, how the doctors responded things like that? Well,
Brienne 12:53
for starters, I have had, she's also. So there's, there's definitely going to be a lot of overlap. And it kind of actually ends up playing into a lot of the gaslighting that I experienced, it took a long time, I come from a long genetic line of Hashimotos, but was not acknowledged as anything auto immune for a really, really long time. And then once it finally did, that actually ended up kind of being the bucket that a lot of stuff got poured into it, a lot of the medical professionals that I was interacting with was like, Oh, well, it's probably just Hashimotos, it's probably just that. And it really delayed getting help. So for context, I don't want to get into all of the details of the other side of this. I'm glad you have a disclaimer up front. But there was some trauma almost 10 years ago, that my family and I went through where we were involved in a live shooting event that I don't need to get into the details on but we were very rapidly moved out of the place that we were in, we were kind of put into a safe zone where we've lived for the last almost 10 years now. And very rapidly after that happened, the kind of trauma that experienced just flipped my health on its head. And I had already been managing Hashimotos. And I'd already at that point, I'd already been diagnosed celiac as well. So I had gone gluten free. Like I was doing a lot of the things I had been feeling a lot better for a while at that point. And then this event happens. And everything flipped upside down. And within six months, I gained 85 pounds. Yeah, and again, it could just get chalked up to it's, it's your house you use like obviously this has gotten out of out of control, and you must be depressed. And so you're probably just eating more than you realize, and you're probably not moving as much as you should be. And it really just always got shocked into that. And then very rapidly that it also became, well, if you lost weight, you'd probably feel better, which is like the non stop that I got from medical professionals over and over and over and over again. Even my thyroid specialists that I was seeing for the Hashimotos like well, you know, have you tried maybe doing a little bit more of this or a little bit more of that and
Philip Pape 14:54
just Just Eat more, eat less move more.
Brienne 14:56
Exactly. I mean doesn't always just come down to that like It's just that easy, of course, of course. And it really felt like I was constantly being dismissed. And when, like you were saying was, I feel like when you have some of these kinds of chronic illnesses, especially an autoimmune disorder, you get really in tune with your own body. And you kind of know, when something's off when something's wrong. And when you've had to advocate for your own health for long enough, he's paid a lot of attention to those kinds of things. And the number of times that I would sit in front of, you know, a primary care physician or my thyroid specialist, or you name it kind of medical professional, or even, like fitness trainers or whatever, and be told, Well, it's probably like, Are you tracking what you're eating? Have you paid attention to, like, maybe you need carbs a little bit more, and, you know, like, it was always those kinds of responses, and it was just chalked up to these other things. You know, maybe maybe we'll play a little bit with your medication. But, you know, this, this really is probably that you aren't doing what you should be doing. And it just was very dismissive. And it I knew something else was wrong. I knew something had snapped or broken somewhere in that process. Because you don't just gain a five pounds in six months, for no reason. No, like medical tracking reads like there's there's something there. There's something. Right?
Philip Pape 16:14
Yeah, yeah, most people gain all their weight in the holidays, from obvious things. Yeah.
Brienne 16:19
And the effort it would take to gain 85 pounds in the holidays like that would be remarkable. That would be like somebody should get a trophy if they were capable of that, because it's just really not something that happens that easily. So it was very dismissive for years and years and years, and I changed healthcare providers. And I changed, I even changed insurance at one point, and I felt like I was chasing, chasing, chasing. And I had learned early on with the Hashimotos experience that I really did have to advocate for my own health, but was in a not awesome headspace after all of those events have taken place. And so advocacy becomes very, very difficult when you're in that kind of a state anyway, and I had a lot of social anxiety that was going on, and a lot of other things that had kind of kicked up in that trauma situation, that made it very difficult to do the work to advocate for myself, because I didn't feel like confronting physicians or other health care professionals to try to fight for what I felt like I needed, I just knew that it wasn't, they weren't giving me what I needed. And a lot of that just you know, was kind of shut down and was like, Well, fine, I'm just going to conveniently cancel that appointment. And then I'll see if I can make one with another person and see what they get. And then it would be the same thing over and over and over and over again. And it really wasn't until not long before, long before I found your podcast. And a lot of it was related to Karen's podcast, but some of the other literature that I had come across again, data and research person, so I was the person in the pandemic, who had like the stack of medical journals on the bedside table, you know, just for funsies. So I don't mind reading through a lot of that stuff, or getting into the nitty gritty. And it just the consistency that I was coming across it like, there's something here with the adrenals. There's something here with the hormones. And when I finally got to that answer, I had already done so much. I'm not afraid of the hard work. So when it was things like well, maybe it's maybe your sleep is a problem and was like cool, I will get a sleep coach, I will retrain myself on how to sleep properly, because I wasn't getting enough sleep, and didn't have a great understanding of how much sleep I actually needed. So I did that. And that didn't fix anything. And then was like, Well, maybe it's adrenal is maybe my stress is that issue, because I got told that one a lot by doctors, you just need to stress a little left. Right, right. You know, just you know, it's like when you're really upset, and somebody says Calm down, because that always works. And don't be depressed. Just yeah, don't be anxious. Have you thought happier thoughts? Yeah, it's it was in that vein. And so I, I did some stuff that was actually very helpful with stress. And we saw the reaction with the adrenal testing that I was getting done when I had done some training and transcendental meditation. And I actually had done some hypnotherapy. I mean, like, I'm just literally willing to try anything I have long since gone past pharmaceutical options. I was like, you name it, I'm trying it. Let's just see if it works. And I did see good results with like cortisol and things like that, when I did that, but it still didn't fix the issue. So then I got medically cleared to start exercising again, which I had been a little bit restricted on. And, you know, I sit on do chronic cardio, because that's not great for my system at all, but started adding in, you know, resistance training, and I was in the pool, and I was doing reformer Pilates, and I was like I was literally like six days a week. And nothing was changing. And so I looked into gut health and it was like, Alright, then I tested positive for SIBO. So let's do treatment for that. So I did treatment for that. And we got to where I was testing negative on it. Nothing was changing. So I felt like it went round and round and round and round and round. And every time that I thought I found an answer. It wasn't an answer until it finally was like, Well, what about hormones? And I got tested for them and I had no detectable levels of estrogen or progesterone in my system. And my testosterone was at a nine c Which is pretty low. So it was like bells all went off was like, is it this is it this is finally like this has got to be it. This has this interacts with all of these same areas that I've been trying to address. And when I took it to my doctor, when those results came back, and I was like, alright, let's sit down, I've done my homework, I've done my research, I looked into this thing, I looked into this thing. Let's talk about how we're going to address this. And she stopped me mid sentence and said, I'm very upset that you went and did that. It was like that I went and did what she's like the wind and you looked at other medical information, and that you looked at other doctors recommendations on this, I'm very upset. This is my area of expertise. And I'm really upset that you did that. I was like flabbergasted because I've worked with this doctor for years, and did not see that coming at all shut down the entire conversation. And when I asked if I could retest it a month, and maybe we'll just come back to it. Then she said, I'm never testing your hormones. Again, this is not the issue. This is not a problem. We're not going to be talking about this again, and wanted to go back to talking about thyroid issues instead. And it was devastating. I
Philip Pape 21:02
don't even know where to start. I don't even know where to start. Because Oh, I mean, women in my life might live very close to me male and female doctors, I've heard stuff similar to that where they'll say, Well, you know, you're too young, or no, it's not the hormones, it's something else. And B you actually got tested had a reasonably low numbers, obviously. And you had tried everything else. And here, here's the sanctimony the arrogance, right, this dot like that's, I'm feeling it right from the start.
Brienne 21:30
Well, in so much of that thing you get where it's like you tell like No, no, I've done this I've done I'd been tracking everything for so long. And like, I can show it to them. But if it's like, but did you really like? No, I really, really did. I've been tracking my sleep for seven years, I've been tracking my food for four and a half, I'd like Like, I've got all of this on paper in writing, and I'm that person. So like, it's all there and to have it just utterly dismissed. And then to have it in test results. You know, I have those, I have those test results in my you know, my shirt system and all of that, like it's there. It's in black and white and have it just dismissed to be told. And then and now we're not even going to talk about this. This is a non issue. I was 38 years old at the time, and it was like, your hormones are not a problem. We're not even gonna talk about it. It's like, no, yeah.
Philip Pape 22:16
And honestly, and maybe Liz can chime in here as medical professional, but is there like, Are there books that you know, you go through training, and it's basically root cause decision tree type books. And I asked this because one time when I was in my rheumatologist offices because I have a minor connective tissue autoimmune thing myself. I was looking, I was just snooping through their stuff. And there was a big book there. And I actually looked up, like my condition. And it's it. It was like if this do this, if this this if this do this. And I was like, Wait a minute. Is that what they're doing? Like? Liz? I'm just curious China,
Liz 22:47
there are some sub specialty texts like that, that kind of give you guidelines as far as treatment. So yeah, it can be kind of prescriptive like that. But oftentimes, there's some anecdotal things that happen to like, what did your What did the person who taught you, you know, teach you about it? And so that's a lot of the experiential learning of healthcare, too. But yes, sometimes some of it is very simple and straightforward. And if this then do that, and so it always amazes me when providers kind of can't help take that next step, that really, we're coming to them with a have A plus B equals C, you know, I have a helped me get B and then it'll equal c, right? Sometimes that can be that simple. But
Philip Pape 23:27
yeah, and this, this doctor of yours free to just saying that, like, how dare you get tested elsewhere? Like, I'm just I'm not sure where that comes from? Oh, no, I wonder how many doctors are like that. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories. Well,
Brienne 23:43
in what's wild is she was actually the one who did she actually was the one who ordered the first tests when I had requested them. Yeah, and then wouldn't do him again to the aisle further testing. After that I've had to get done myself. I hadn't done it. I had him read done a month later, because of course, the gaslighting part of the kind of insidious part of it is that it really starts to make you doubt yourself. And even though that I've done this, and I've lived, I live in this body, every day, and I've had to advocate for myself. And I've had to kind of pay a lot of attention to how I'm feeling and what works and what doesn't for a very long time, and to have that reaction. And to know something is not right. But then to immediately doubt my own lived in my own body experience. And if that was real, because of this reaction from you know, a professional. That was like, I finally had to then go out of pocket to go get retested a month later, because I was like, Maybe Maybe there was something wrong with the test, maybe, like, maybe I am missing something. I'm not a doctor. So you know, maybe I'm wrong here. And they came back exactly the same a month later, you know, it was confirmed and it was but I had to go do that out of pocket because she would not talk about it ever again.
Philip Pape 24:46
Right. And I understand a lot of hormone treatment and testing does have to be done out of pocket. I've experienced that as well. And you talked a couple times now about the friction we have against even self hack of advocacy, right? The friction like first of all, if you're not Have the right headspace. And you're trying to trust these professionals. Secondly, just the system itself and the healthcare and the financials. It goes on and on. And probably third, I mean, there's a whole long list of like, because we are not the experts, we're questioning how much should we internet Doctor ourselves, right. And I'm coming to find talking to you here and others that we should doctor the hell out of ourselves. Like, basically just assume doctors know nothing, but then collaborate and correlate, you know, against stuff, they know,
25:32
that most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help. And Phillip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
Philip Pape 26:17
I know we had our chat, and then I know you found Karen, like, Where was this? Was there a spark somewhere specifically with the hormones that that got you on that track that people listening can say, okay, maybe I can try that.
Brienne 26:29
I mean, I was noticing the correlation between some of these, because there was already deep diving on podcasts and books and a lot of different opportunities to learn more about what is it that I'm experiencing? And how does that align with like what this could potentially be? Because it wasn't, it wasn't just adrenals, it wasn't just an issue of cortisol, it was not just an issue of sleep, it wasn't just an issue of what I was eating, and how much and how much I was working out. And so in that process of diving into what could the answer be, when you start hearing things in the hormone world about a lot, frankly, a lot of symptoms that can sound a little bit more like the thyroid issues where you've got brain fog, and you've got trouble sleeping, and you've got, you know, belly fat. And I mean, everybody loves talking about meadow belly and all of that stuff, you start to see some correlations, where it's like, okay, this is, this is what I'm experiencing. So maybe let's just find out, maybe, let's test and that was, it was a very like, light intro to when I went to that doctor the first time and like, I don't know, I'm curious, and I am getting closer to 40. And there's already fertility issues when you have autoimmune thyroid disorder. And I've got two kids, and I wasn't looking to add to that number. But my sister had lost, she'd had a miscarriage and lost the baby late term. And so it was just kind of Top of Mind of like a and let's just, let's just see where things are at and an asinine gotten that testing when it came back is not detectable, it's like, okay, so this is clearly a problem. So treatment probably would make a really big difference. And to then be immediately rejected on being able to go further on treatment, it was the last time I had an appointment with that doctor. But I had to find, and I had to find other care, because I didn't have the option. It's very expensive, I didn't have the option of paying out of pocket for full hormone treatment. As it is I even through insurance, I still go through a compound pharmacy for the treatments that I use. And it's still really expensive. And I think it's really unfortunate that I think that that's probably a pretty big barrier for treatment for a lot of people. Because it has been a night and day experience once I started to get on actual treatment for all three hormones that I'm having replaced. Got
Philip Pape 28:30
it. Yeah. And I've heard, you know, you would think there's a simple argument can be made that if it's so profound, for women, for lots of women who probably have hormone imbalances, why doesn't insurance cover it, but then I think the cynical and maybe realistic answer is that there's more money in the pharmaceuticals, perhaps for treating sickness? I don't know, or it's just the system set up that way, right. Like, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist. But you know, let's, let's go to I'm skeptical of everything. So that's how it works. Let's go back to Liz, like, Do you have any thoughts on anything we just said first, and then before I go to another question.
Liz 29:04
So as a medical professional, Mike, my question is always, if you're gonna run a test, it should impact what you're going to do next grade, it should have some sort of impact on the treatment options you're exploring. Otherwise, why are you doing the test if it's not going to inform the next step for the patient? So if you ever encounter that, I would say the best advice I have is run from that provider. Because, you know, why are you charging my insurance for a test that means nothing to you that you don't value? The data from? Like, that's a very big red flag to me. And I know we're probably going to talk about that. But, um, you know, incredible amount of homework that you do. And I think reading studies on a Friday night is a very exciting, right and I so, you know,
Philip Pape 29:47
either add that to stress relief or to sleep pack, like one or the other for her
Liz 29:50
one or the other. Right? So, I think an incredible job that Bree did just advocating for herself and, and yeah, so unfortunate. that we are all experiencing this. What?
Philip Pape 30:02
You know, I wonder if a doctor asked. So I've heard doctors will who won't even get the tests, ordered the tests because you're 38 or whatever, like, as if that's some, there's a magic number you have to get to like 50 or whatever. That that's one thing that comes to mind. But the other is, you're right. If she had the test, was she hoping that the numbers would be good enough that she could just tell you? Okay, let's move on to the next thing, you know, just speculating if that was what it was. You mentioned red flags. Liz. So, I mean, how about you? What were some other red flags on the way? And again, I know it was, we're talking about when you were young, specifically, or was there another situation later on as well? More recently? Yeah,
Liz 30:40
I like that. It's been the roller coaster of healthcare. And I think we've sort of touched on that with Hashimotos, especially, but I have a primary care provider that I really value. And I appreciate. And she's done a phenomenal job of, you know, letting me participate in care and really interact with me. And so recently, I went to her office and, you know, again, starting to feel some symptoms again, can we get a blood test? It's been a little bit. And those results were sort of borderline, which for someone with Hashimotos. It's like, okay, great. What does that mean? What do we do with that, but you're having symptoms, write symptoms should really drive sort of what are we going to do for you. And so she had also been having this conversation with me about, oh, you're starting to sort of edge towards overweight, your BMI is escalating, we really need to be mindful about those things. And you really need to work harder to lose weight. And I said, you know, here's some of the things I'm doing, what exactly different would you have me do? And she was like, oh, no, you're doing great. Keep on the same path. So when this came up, I said, so it's borderline and you tell me, I'm gaining weight? Why wouldn't we tweak my medication? She was like, Oh, sure, let's do that. So it was sort of this, like, it's gaslighting. And then it's also, the trick is finding someone who will also listen and take your, you know, personal suggestion of this is what I'm finding, and this is the homework I've done. And can't we just try it? And sometimes they say yes, and so you're like, but were those other times, still valid, like, whereas I still gaslit yesterday, but today, you're appropriate, it's it can be really such a mind game. And so for me and other medical experiences that I've had, and I think, you know, the OB GYN is another one for a lot of women where we get gaslighting. And belittling language, to me is a lot of what I see, I see it in peers at the hospital that I work with, or you see it, you know, in my own medical care that, is it just this or could it be, you know, this belittling language that sort of diminishes your experience? Like Bree was saying, it makes you second guess your own lived experience. That's a big one for me. And I think also, when providers act frustrated and angry, that's a big red flag to me, you know, my care, my lived experience, what I feel well is should never anger a provider. And that, to me, a huge red flag of, you know, if mean, eating something is going to interact with, you know, how you're going to interact with me, then I don't want that provider to be caring for me and giving them that that time. And that To be frank, give them my money, either.
Philip Pape 33:15
Yeah. So, so much, so much of what you say I've seen it firsthand with people. And you're right, that it can be even worse when it almost seems like the doctors going along with you. Like you said, I think what you were saying is that your current doctor is kind of maybe better than the average, but maybe not quite where you wish they were because she waited for you to take action and mention what you wanted to do. And she's like, Yeah, okay, fine, almost almost patronizing. Lee, right. Yeah. Yeah. You literally language. Okay. And then yeah, when fighters are frustrated, angry, I mean, I don't know, as a nutrition coach, like, I just want to be a detective and figure it out? And if I don't know, let's figure it out. So I don't understand where that attitude comes from in the medical industry. Do you see it more often than not? And is it because of the training? Is it because of medical school? Like are you do what do you know where that comes from?
Liz 34:06
I think there are a lot of providers that go out into the world and get, you know, medical training and knowledge because they want to help people and they do have them that. But I think there is a certain point where ego does come into play. And when they don't know the answer, and they can't help and they can't fix, which is all they've been know trained and taught to do, that sometimes it can be a threat to their ego. And so I think there are wonderful providers out there. And I think there are providers that are absolutely threatened by not having the answer. And unfortunately, you know, I think that can come into play.
Philip Pape 34:38
I love your positivity. I mean, that is I like that you keep coming back to hey, there are gonna be good apples out there. I agree. It doesn't necessarily excuse that how prevalent bad actors are, when you compare it to maybe other industries or something? I'm not putting that on you at all. Oh, man. Something came to mind when you said that. And what was it? I don't know. Let's keep going here. Bri did you want to anything because I can definitely get into more specific questions as we go forward.
Brienne 35:03
I fully agree with everything you're saying was, I think that those are a lot of the really big red flags, those that kind of being dismissed to being angry being resistant to a collaborative experience. And I really feel like that's how it should work with medical professionals is that it really should be a collaborative experience, because they have a lot of knowledge and expertise and things they can bring to the table. And they kind of hold the keys to the gate, when it comes to a lot of the testing and prescriptions and a lot of these other things that you want to have access to, in order to have this, you know, elevated sense of wellness, it should be collaborative, because it's still, it's still my body, still my life, it's still all the things that I have to live through and go through on a daily basis. And so when you don't have a collaborative healthcare professional that you're working with, that's really, that should really be a flag right there. Ego is certainly a huge flag too. I feel like when you find a physician, whatever their specialty, whatever their capacity in the medical field, when you find one that is collaborative, and you find one that is open, that encourages you to do I feel like it's more of a green flag. But when they encourage you to do a lot of your own research and provide you with resources that you can dive deeper on, they are worth their weight in gold, like you hold on to them as much as you can, because I do feel like they are unfortunately quite rare. And when you don't have that collaborative spirit, that's that's a huge red flag.
Philip Pape 36:23
That's a really good one for listeners to take home. A couple of things come to mind, Bree and Liz was first it's it sounds ironic that doctors pretty much get paid whether they fix your issue or not. Right. And that almost seems ironic, because then well, maybe it isn't maybe it is because of that they just want to move to the next thing. Or somebody who's incentivized to do that to actually address the issue without would put more into it. But then Bri your comment about if someone is open to you doing the research, right. I have heard I've had personal experience with with this two very different gi doctors one who I had a minor issue with my voice was getting hoarse, which is a podcaster was a nightmare. My voice is getting hoarse. And I had been taking this steroid inhaler thing for esophageal, esophageal thing. And I said and I Googled it, and it said, steroid induced hoarseness that oh, okay, let me stop taking it. And it went away. And I went back on it came back and went up. So I told the doctor, I did this three times I'm going away. Anon, that's not a thing. That doesn't exist, you know, two different doctors actually a GI doctor, and what do you call your ears and throat? So it's a thing like I did it. Okay. All right. Well, that's fine. You could. And then I had to say like, Can we do a different steroid or different options? Sure. Sure. We can. It's the same thing that yeah, insane. And then there was another doctor, I wish I still had him. He was my primary in the old town I used to live in who taught students and you know, he was older. So you think a lot of times you old school doctors are kind of like stuck in their ways. And he was always I was bringing in papers and stuff. He's like, Yeah, that's great. I heard about it. It just came out last week. I think I think we should try that. Like, let's do that, you know. So for those listening, like, these are good green and red flags to look for. So thank you for bringing all those up. And then I guess, you know, if someone feels that they're experiencing gaslighting right now they're listening this insane. Okay, I recognize those signs, those flags, like what's the first bit of advice, you know, one or two things they might do to take action today and move in the right direction? Where to go first? I mean,
Brienne 38:30
I'll jump in on it certainly my one of the most these more recent experiences with this, the hormone situation. It was when that happened when I got shut down and dismissed. And this is a full stop, we're not moving any further. That to me is like, I'm done. Okay. And I remember having like, it's funny, because you talked about the OBGYN field and how this happens too much there, too. I feel like this happens a lot to women who are pregnant and are, especially when you get closer to labor and delivery. You get a lot of this. And I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine, who was she was just passed. I mean, like a day passed the 40 week mark, and her doctor was really, really pushing on like, you were just going to have to induce because you're at my favorite phrase, you're a geriatric pregnancy. So we have to induce you, we have to induce you, and I'm having a conversation here of like, they're not going to show up to your house with an ambulance and force you in it. Like, you can just say, No, you don't have to do that. And I feel like every now and then I have to remind myself the same thing is true for my own health. And the doctors I'm working with, I don't have to stay with them. I don't have to keep working with them. I don't have to take their advice. I don't have to take the medication. It's like you're talking about going on and off to kind of test and learn on your own with this like steroid inhaler. You don't have to just do what they say they don't get to make all the decisions and own your life. You can walk away and so if you're experiencing some of this, cancel the appointment, find a new doctor. You can like you don't you don't owe an explanation. Nothing. You can just move on On, and you don't have to confront if you don't want to, if you feel like it more power to you, I'm not a terribly confrontational person that gets hot and bothered if I do that. So I prefer not to and I'm totally fine just being like, Okay, then I'm now done. And I will cancel the next appointment. And I will say thank you for your time, and I will leave and I just won't come back again. And I'll find somebody else.
Liz 40:20
I think that's a great point spree. And I think some other things, just one other thing that I would really add to that is to sort of recap the conversation and rephrase it and send it back to them and say, like, Am I understanding this correctly? So for example, you know, you got this hormone testing done, my estrogen and my progesterone were completely now. And you're saying now that we should not treat that? Is that correct? Am I understanding that correctly? And can you help me understand why, you know, sometimes I think it definitely puts the burden on the patient, right? That's not fair that we have to then argue for healthcare and say, like, you know, go above and beyond to keep arguing for what we think is right. And we know to be right for ourselves. But I think sometimes it does sort of gut check them to say, Oh, wait, that actually doesn't make sense. Now that you've said it back. Maybe I can come up with something else. Or I think also saying, Well, this is one console that I'm doing. And I'm I'm looking for other providers who would also be experts in this field. So I'm going to take your recommendation of doing nothing, and I'll go see what another provider has to say, because I think it's very transparent to say, that's not an option for me doing nothing is not going to help me be well. And that's my goal. That's why I'm here. So you know, I think you can be transparent, you don't have to be I don't like to be confrontational, either. But I think, you know, sticking up for yourself is, is it's hard. And sometimes I just feel like we have to say, say something.
Philip Pape 41:43
Yeah, you're a pro. You're a pro at this. I love that. I love the wording. Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying this? Is that correct? I mean, just that's it, right? Because then if they're like, Yeah, you know, what, why are you telling me if my hormones have dropped to nothing? I'm doing nothing? Is that what you're saying? We just do. And walk? Yeah, right.
Liz 42:02
And I feel like I advocate for patients all the time in the hospital. Like, I feel like I've gotten really good at saying, Okay, this is the result, you're telling me, that's really what you want to do. And, and so sometimes it does jar them into that, oh, I should do something
Philip Pape 42:14
about that. Right. And for the listener listening in Advanced Practice, practice, nurse. I don't know, I don't know if this is just a perception. But it seems like nurses, PAs, like anybody other than doctors, for some reason seem to care more just on average. If that's what you've experienced in the field, I
Liz 42:32
feel like as a nurse, our worldview is a little bit more holistic, we care about the whole person, not just maybe the dataset in front of us. But what does that also mean and the grander scheme of that patient. And I feel like we being a nurse, you have to advocate for your patient, that's one of the best and hardest parts of being a nurse. So I definitely think that a lot of people get into that profession to help people. And it's a lot easier to start as a nurse or a PA than it is as a doctor to so it helps remove those barriers. And I think that's, that's part of why I like so many of those providers when I seek out care, too. Yeah,
Philip Pape 43:06
that's true. And then that leads me to thinking, Okay, if people are looking for another provider today, we have a lot of resources, right? Even word of mouth on Facebook, like, like a, I'm looking for a doctor who works with people who train with barbells, who's a lifter himself or something, you know, like, where is that? And then people will chime in, although I did that once. And then somebody else said, Well, he's not a doctor, because he's a PA. And I'm like, Oh, I think I do want to see this guy. You know, because it's these. It's this elitism around the letter sometimes. Hey, what do you guys think about holistic and functional doctors? Because especially in the hormone world, it almost seems like that's one of the only ways to get somebody who wants to solve the problem with you. What do you guys think about that? Maybe three or less?
Brienne 43:49
Yeah, I grew up in a home that was very respectful of the medical professional and like medical professionals in general. And that's a good thing. And a bad thing. Sometimes, I think it's part of why when, especially when I was first trying to get a lot of the treatment after after the shooting had happened. And there was a lot of other issues that it kicked up with that and I went the traditional methods, and you know, had the anti anxiety medication and had the depression medication and had all of these other things that were just like the very traditional routine and weren't working. And I think it took I had a conversation with a good friend who had kind of like, sat me down and had a real heart to heart conversation of like, look, sometimes those things work for the majority of people and sometimes you aren't the majority of people and sometimes you need to go move outside of the traditional accepted haves in find another option and maybe you'll find something that works for you. And I felt like that kind of unshackled me in a lot of ways, which is how I ended up going to other pathways and things I probably honestly never would have considered before. And then they worked to were really helpful. And it was like, oh, there's an entire other world out here. And I'm still this is part of why I was so attracted to a lot of the stuff that you say felt Like I still care about there has to be data and research. One of my absolute favorite phrases like literally gonna probably buy the t shirt that comes from a different podcaster. He constantly says it in his podcast where he says, who I'm gonna have to say this correctly. Think Critically, Google competently? Should I love that? That's like a mantra that I can like now live by to think critically and Google competently because I'm not afraid to step out of the lane. Now I've worked with functional medical medical doctors, I've worked with the advice given from medical professionals, but I'm not directly their patient aren't because they've written books or stuff, but because they aren't getting access in the mainstream spaces. And just having conversations, people who maybe have gone through it before and say, Look, I don't know, this one worked for me, why don't you try it, and allowing yourself to kind of experiment on your own self, when you're not getting the help with the traditional routes. Anyway, opening all of that up was really, really huge for me, and it's what moved the needle. And it's what eventually got me to a completely different side of health in my own life. I mean, when I finally got hormone treatment, I didn't start hormone therapy until March of last year. So we're coming up on a year. And it took a little while to kind of dial in those dosages of what I you know, get it all working and clicking on all the things that my body needed. And like, almost as soon as we got it, nailed it by June of last year, not that it was all about weight, because it was mostly about how I felt but the got 85 pound weight gain that had been stuck with me for nine years. All of that has been gone since by December, like literally like six months on six months off. Yeah.
Philip Pape 46:27
Change any of the other lifestyle. It was already dialed in. Yeah, all
Brienne 46:31
the other stuff was was I was already doing all the other things anyway was a good part about I guess, doing that for no reward. But getting to the other side of that where it's like, oh, wait, maybe maybe if you do go out of the lane a little bit, there's something to that, and being open to it. Still, you know, thinking critically googling competently. But you can find other options that are that will work. That will actually mean something, do something shipped something, and you don't have to be stuck to the traditional paths.
Philip Pape 46:57
Love it. I'm glad I asked that. Because yeah, I think people are wondering about that doesn't have to be a doc, you know, a traditional doctor, definitely not. So Liz, do you want to add to that,
Liz 47:05
I want that phrase cross stitched on something, really, I want to say, I think there's so much value in complementary and alternative medicine, I think there's, you know, it would be foolish to just think that, you know, medicine prescriptions are the only way to be healed and to be well and to be healthy. And so I think acupuncture and chiropractic medicine and vitamins and supplements and, you know, healthy lifestyles and sunshine and grounding and putting your feet in the dirt. Like there's so many different ways that wellness can be enhanced. And I think if you can use all of it, I think it can just only make you better. And often more well,
Philip Pape 47:42
you know, what you may have made me think of here is that, like if we had a pie chart, traditional health care, it would be this tiny slice. Because even what we do even talking about lifestyle, just lifting weights and caring about your nutrition kind of puts you in a minority these days, but it is a form of health care. And in fact, you've heard the criticisms, those health care versus sick care, right. And you can almost like put traditional medicines to that sick care slice. And then all the other things are what we try to do on our own toward health care, although there's a time in place for for medication and whatnot. Cool. All right. So we're going to close here soon, what I really want to get to the root of is, why did you think it was important to share your story today, because I reached out in our community, and I brought up the topic and you guys raise your hand, you're courageous enough to come on here. And you know, everybody's nervous about going on a podcast and all that. Why was it important for you to be here, let's start with Liz. And then three,
Liz 48:37
I think we are the number one person who can take care of us. And it's so crucially important to advocate for ourselves, and to really speak up and get the things that we need and reach out to the next resource if we're not getting it. So, you know, so many things that I've learned as both a nurse and as like a human being in the world had been from hearing someone else's experience and going, Oh, that sounds similar to mine. Let me learn something, let me do something with that information. And so I just I feel like the more we can share our stories, the more we can advocate for ourselves and be better patients and maybe not even be patient. You know, that'd be the goal. But I just thought it was important that, you know, we continue to have these conversations about gaslighting and how to advocate and, and more importantly, how to be happy and healthy.
Philip Pape 49:25
I love it. So I mean, two things, you really struck me there just advocating for yourself, like you said, right, because no one else is really going to do it for you, even our closest loved ones they try. But we have our best advocate and then taking what you have and sharing it with others and helping others see the same thing, which is what we're trying to do here. So Thanks, Liz. Absolutely, Bri
Brienne 49:43
I completely agree with that. I feel like my entire life looks completely different than it did even even a year ago or two years ago or 10 years ago it everything was so different and I sounds almost cliche to be like, Oh, I'm 40 and it's you know best have ever felt bit like it's, that's that's real. That's true that happens. And I, I have this kind of like, desperate need to convince other people that they really need to, like do this too. And like, like to the point where I kind of have to like hold myself backwards, like don't don't start trying to diagnose people or something because that's not helpful. But like the idea of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, you don't have to be like your story doesn't have to be, you know, my back hurts every day or I never get any sleep or I've gained all this weight, I don't know what to do with it or how to get it back off, or my doctor never listens to me or I feel crappy all the time. That doesn't have to be anybody's story, there are options. And if if it helps to share what I've experienced, and somebody else can recognize that and then go, maybe I'll give that a try and see what happens like that I don't, I will probably never know. But it's really helpful to know that I've done my part to at least share what I experienced. And then it could be better for somebody else, because
Philip Pape 50:56
I love it. And I know people, somebody you will impact at least one person and probably more than that. No, I'm not saying the show has millions of listeners, but there's enough people who listen and are kind of in that demographic of you know, we're in our 30s 40s 50s. And, you know, wondering what the heck we might do even if lifestyle is dialed in, and maybe lifestyle is not dialed in. And if you know who you are, if that's the case, nobody needs a robot in your face, right? Like we want to work both together and figure out the solution. So that is awesome. I mean, this has been this has been really fun. And before we let everyone know how to connect with you, I do want to give a voice from someone else in our community. I mentioned this before we started recording. Um, her name is Stella. And I'm just she gave me permission to share her story I want to share in her own words. So again, the warning we had before this could be you know, serious topic here. Quote, I had severe anemia written off as depression without any testing by the doctor who drugged and raped me. He was successfully sued for malpractice by others. But I didn't feel safe to come forward about it at that time as I was only 19. The mental health misdiagnosis has never been removed from my file. So I've never received actual testing or investigation into any of my other health issues. It all gets written off as crazy patient syndrome. To save my life, I had to do over 10 years of research, and watch my mom's diagnoses to find out what else was going on. She was gaslit about a thyroid issue for two decades until diagnosis. And doctors continue to refuse to order tests along the lines of my research. So there's no way to formally confirm or deny this. However, I brought myself back from being almost bedridden, while doctors did nothing. I think it's important to speak up about how militias, predatory doctors can destroy a patient's ability to receive health care for their entire life in court. So it's a very different story from you. But there's a lot of similarities and obviously very heavy and what sellers had to go through. Did any of you want to say anything about that? You don't have to I can, you know, close the episode here.
Brienne 52:53
I don't have good words. Okay, absolutely horrific. But unfortunately, not as rare as it should be.
Liz 53:00
I think it's so important that, you know, we speak out because it gives other people permission to speak out, too. I think so many times we've seen this happen where women have an experience and they think I'm the only one I'll just keep it to myself and and I'll live with this forever. But you never know how many people are out there, you know, live having the same lived experience that just don't quite have the courage to speak out. And so, you know, my heart breaks for her that she had a provider that you know, use it abuse and absolutely broke every oath that we make as healthcare providers. inexcusable, but, you know, I hope that she can find someone who will advocate for her and care for her and, you know, help her get the things that she needs to really, again, get back to wellness, whatever that means for what a courageous thing for her to share her story to incredible,
Philip Pape 53:52
very much. Yeah. And she lives in a place where the infrastructure is difficult. She wanted to be on here, you know, couldn't but yeah, it's it's, you know, total spectrum. As we see it's a spectrum everybody is different in the care we receive is different, but it's all the same principles behind it. And you to express beautifully how we can take back control of our health. So I do want to express you know, the deepest thanks and gratitude to both of you, Liz and Bree, for your bravery, vulnerability, because you are also sharing your you know, details of your life. And your experiences just tell us how common it is. I mean, not just to yours, but also those that you've lived with and know and lives as a medical professional as well can give us that perspective. And it affects our well being and affects our health. That's why I wanted to bring on this show because it affects everybody, even men, listening men supporting women, it happens to everybody. And so to our listeners to our viewers who've had symptoms dismissed or your concerns minimized or your intuition about your own body ignored by medical professional, you are not alone at all. The stories here are just like a small sliver of this pervasive problem that we have in our industry. But you know, lism really showed us that there is power in self advocacy and being the number one, advocate for yourself. And trust your experience, seek second opinions, advocate with your appointments and like you can cancel on a doctor if you have to, as we heard from Bree, maybe even you don't have people that go with you to appointments can be helpful, too. And keep pushing for the care and answers you deserve. And if you're a healthcare professional listening, just like Liz, I urge you to reflect on how you can create a safer, more validating environment for your patients to voice their concerns. So yes, change starts with what we had today with this conversation. And I think we could all work toward you know, a future where this doesn't happen again. That's that's what we want. So with that said, I know I've been talking a lot here, Liz, where do you want people to connect with you?
Liz 55:50
And the easiest place to find me is on Instagram. I'm at nurse Liz three. All
Philip Pape 55:55
right, Instagram fit nurse Liz three. I'll throw that in the show notes and Bri same question.
Brienne 56:00
Instagrams probably easiest place to find me as well. My whole little mini farm experiment up in the mountains is all on ball all on there. So you can find me on Instagram at modern mountain homestead. Modern
Philip Pape 56:12
mountain homestead. I'll put that in as well. Any final thoughts? I want to give you guys a last word. If you have anything else you want to say. It's
Liz 56:19
been such a pleasure to talk to you and Bree, I thank you so much for sharing your experience. And I just got so much out of this conversation that I hope that helps someone else. One person would be more than enough. Awesome. I'll
Brienne 56:31
echo that was really great to be with this group is such a fun group. I'm glad we have a whole like collaboration of nerds makes me happy. But just truly for anybody out there who listens. You can it's okay to advocate for yourself. It's okay to make your own decisions here. And I really, really hope that you are encouraged to do what's best for you.
Philip Pape 56:51
Well said I had a blast. So you guys are awesome. I had so much fun. This is one of the most favorite interviews I've ever done. And so I hope the listeners and viewers felt the same. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Brienne 57:01
Thank you.
Philip Pape 57:03
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 153: Time-Efficient Muscle Growth, Cardio for Lifters, and Metabolism Myths with Jordan Lips
Want to unlock time-efficient muscle growth? Tune in as Jordan Lips spills the secrets of hypertrophy optimization and the truth about metabolic adaptation! Philip is joined by personal trainer, ex-gym owner, and MNU Certified Nutritionist Jordan Lip, who shares his expertise in three big areas: time-efficient hypertrophy, incorporating cardio as a lifter, and clearing up some of the misconceptions about metabolic adaptation.
Want to unlock time-efficient muscle growth? Tune in as Jordan Lips spills the secrets of hypertrophy optimization and the truth about metabolic adaptation!
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) is joined by personal trainer, ex-gym owner, and MNU Certified Nutritionist Jordan Lips, who works exclusively online with people who want to get healthier across a broad range of goals.
Philip invited Jordan on the show because of his straightforward approach to topics like metabolism and building muscle, which are often misconstrued in the fitness industry. Today, he shares his expertise in three big areas we're hearing a lot about: time-efficient hypertrophy, incorporating cardio as a lifter, and clearing up some of the misconceptions about metabolic adaptation.
Jordan has over 15 years of experience as the mind behind Jordan Lips Fitness and offers both 1-on-1 and group coaching. His online group programs, including 'The Hyper Trophies' for the gym and 'Home Bodies' for those working out from home, are designed to respect your time and lifestyle. And it doesn't hurt that Jordan deeply understands biomechanics, nutrition, and individualized program design. His podcast, "Where Optimal Meets Practical," is focused on optimizing your training, nutrition, and mindset but doing so in a practical way.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:50 Time-efficient hypertrophy
7:29 Intensity techniques for muscle growth
11:52 SFR and time efficiency
13:58 Muscle-building for beginners
16:03 The foundation of strength
19:25 Workout splits based on experience level
24:27 Cardio for lifters
40:04 Cardio during the fat loss phase
43:12 Defining metabolic adaptation
50:47 Does metabolic adaptation accelerate?
55:02 Are diet breaks/refeeds psychological?
59:46 The effects of hormones, alcohol, sleep, and stress on metabolic adaptation
1:03:19 Philip's metabolic adaptation after his surgery
1:06:38 The question Jordan wished Philip had asked
1:10:35 Where to find Jordan
1:11:01 Outro
Episode resources:
Podcast: jordanlipsfitness.com/podcast/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA1dws6_fvP1ue7auf31QOQ/featured
Group training programs for people in the gym or at home: https://jordanlipsfitness.com
In the world of fitness and muscle building, there's a prevailing myth that one must live at the gym to see significant gains. This notion has deterred many, particularly those with packed schedules and varied commitments. But what if I told you that it's possible to achieve your dream physique with a well-structured, three-day workout routine? This is precisely the topic that was explored in a recent podcast episode with Jordan Lips, a personal trainer and nutritionist who specializes in helping busy individuals maximize their fitness without overwhelming their schedules.
The conversation began with a discussion on the concept of efficient hypertrophy and the realization that many of us could see gains without being gym-bound six days a week. The key lies in maximizing per-set stimulus by taking sets closer to failure. This method increases the effectiveness of each set, thereby reducing the overall number of sets and gym time required. It's not just about doing less but doing it smarter. By employing techniques like drop sets and myo-reps, one can significantly enhance the muscle-building stimulus of each workout session.
Delving deeper, the episode examined the advantages of using compound lifts and machines to save time and increase efficiency. The rationale is straightforward: by focusing on movements that use more muscle mass and provide greater stability, you minimize energy leaks and fatigue that could detract from your main goal—muscle growth. For example, substituting a back squat with a hack squat allows you to better target the quads without the added complexity and energy demands of stabilizing the body.
As the conversation continued, the topic of metabolic adaptation was brought into the spotlight. A common concern among fitness enthusiasts is that their metabolism might become 'damaged' due to rigorous endurance training or dieting. However, Lips explained that metabolic adaptation is simply a natural response of the body to caloric restriction or increased activity and is not something to be feared. Instead, focusing on controllable factors like weight training and maintaining step counts can help counteract the subconscious reduction in movement that often accompanies metabolic adaptation.
Furthermore, the episode addressed the role of cardiovascular fitness in a hypertrophy-focused training regimen. While cardio may not directly contribute to muscle growth, it does play a crucial role in overall health. Cardiovascular work enhances pulmonary function and fills a significant portion of the 'optimal health pie chart,' making it an indispensable part of a balanced fitness routine. It was emphasized that strategic, low-intensity cardio could boost endurance without compromising muscle gains.
Finally, the emotional aspects of fitness were tackled, challenging the fixation on calorie numbers and encouraging listeners to prioritize personal health indicators and biofeedback. The discussion highlighted the importance of adopting a mindset for sustainable progress, ensuring that listeners were equipped not just with physical training strategies but also with a mindset geared towards long-term wellness.
In essence, this podcast episode was not just about sculpting the body but also about shaping the mind to approach fitness with a balanced, informed perspective. It underscored the importance of fine-tuning your fitness journey with science and personal insight, making it a must-listen for anyone looking to elevate their health narrative without letting fitness consume their life.
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Transcript
Jordan Lips 00:00
The greatest indication of recovery is performance. And so am I consistently performing? You know, and that means ability to progress that stuff. And so if we were to take a hypothetical of a person who lifts who wants to do some cardio, how do they know they're doing too much? And it's like if you start showing up to your lifts, and you can't progress and you start to regress, and I don't just mean as a one off by the way, that shit happens. You know, you have a day you know, something didn't progress you match last week. No worries. I'm talking about a trend of regression.
Philip Pape 00:30
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today, I'm excited to be joined by personal trainer X gym owner and MNU certified nutritionist Jordan lips, who works exclusively online with people who want to get healthier across a broad range of goals. Now I invited Jordan on the show, because not only do I follow his podcast, it's called where optimal meets practical, so make sure to follow that. But I really appreciate his straight up approach. And the way that he communicates topics like metabolism, and building muscle that often get misconstrued or at least overcomplicated by the fitness industry. And Jordan just tells it like it is. So today we're going to have him drop his expertise in three big areas that we're hearing a lot about time efficient hypertrophy. So how to save time while getting jacked, incorporating cardio as a lifter, and clearing up some of the misconceptions about metabolic adaptation. Now Jordan has over 15 years of experience as the mind behind Jordan lips fitness, and he offers both one on one and group coaching. His online group programs, including the hyper trophies for the gym, and home bodies, for those working out from home, are designed to respect your time and lifestyle. And it doesn't hurt that he has a deep understanding of biomechanics, nutrition and individualized program design. Now I also mentioned his podcast already where optimal meets practical. And that is exactly what it sounds like optimizing your training, nutrition and mindset, but doing so in a practical accessible way. So definitely give Jordan show a follow up. Today's conversation resonates with you which I know it will. Jordan man, thank you so much for coming on Wits & Weights.
Jordan Lips 02:33
Now that is an intro. Thanks, man. Appreciate Yeah.
Philip Pape 02:37
Yeah, man, I was very excited for this. Because again, I follow your stuff. And I heard you on a few other podcasts recently, and wanted to dive into the hot topics, right. And we'll get into your story and, you know, real world kind of interaction as we go along. But time efficient hypertrophy, we've got a lot of folks listening who are maybe they're in their 40s, like me, I'm a dad, we you know, we're busy, we have obligations, we're not looking to compete, but we all are looking to look our best and have this sort of fitness lifestyle. How do we design that lifestyle? We can get into details as we go along. But what's your general approach to that? Thank you. The
Jordan Lips 03:13
first thing that comes to mind to me when I'm thinking about people who are interested in efficiency is just kind of taking a small step back and acknowledging and maybe just shifting people's expectations of how much they need to do in the first place. And so I think people who are interested in efficiency, I think those are the same people that would benefit from understanding actually how little you need to do and to make gains, let's say. And the truth is that every time we we look into this, the bar gets lower and lower, you know, specifically for strength. But also for hypertrophy, we don't need to go into super specifics here. But there are people out there that are like trying to train five, six days a week for five, six days a week that could also see gains from from three days a week. So when we're talking about time efficient hypertrophy, I think the first thing to understand is, you know, a lot of people probably don't have to do as much as you think in terms of time allocation. If you do some of the stuff that we're gonna talk about today, you can shrink the time allocation for a weekly perspective, more and more and more, the more knobs you turn in your favor in this regard. So I do think that the first thing people say, oh, I want to be more efficient. And they're like, Well, I train six days a week, I'm like, Well, for starters, you could just do what you're already doing, like three to four days a week, and you'd still also make gains. And so just first understanding that and kind of just maybe calming down some of those expectations of all I have to do a whole lot to see any progress whatsoever. That is the first thing comes to mind for sure. Yeah,
Philip Pape 04:27
fair enough. And then it's kind of like this false alternative people have have like, I either have to do all this training and frequency and days per week, or I'm just not going to work out because you know, there's a middle ground to get the 80 90% that I'm looking for. And yeah, I've had a lot of clients that come in just doing way too much. And it's usually a it's like a, an not an obsession, but they just love going to the gym or they love doing stuff and they feel like if they don't, they're just going to lose everything. So let's talk about some of the specific techniques we can start with maybe how At a beginner, intermediate, lifter, you know, spend as little time as possible just to get great gains to begin with.
Jordan Lips 05:06
Yeah, you want to always say it in a way that might sound complicated, but then we'll break it down as you want to maximize your per set stimulus, right? If we use the number of sets I'm doing, it's just a proxy for how much time in the gym, we want each of those sets that we're doing to be maximally stimulative. So what are the things we can do to make each set more beneficial, so that we don't have to do as many of them and the biggest one by far is going closer to failure. And the closer you are to failure, the more you get on that, the more stimulus you get from that set, the less of those you'd have to do to kind of amass an amount of stimulus that you need to make gains over time. Now that there's a smidge of nuance to that but I think on average, if we're talking, hey, I don't have a lot of time, I want to make gains, guess what we're training on average, Artur, that is the biggest, most important one, by far the most. Everything we talked about today is secondary to taking resets close to failure. If you're somebody looking to save time, want to get the most stimulus per set, the best way to do that is to train freakin hard. And to go close to slash to slash beyond failure, depending on the context. And so don't leave an intensity on the table would be the would be the biggest one for sure. Yeah, I
Philip Pape 06:15
love that. And we were joking about Brian Borstein was recently on the show, we got into all the nuances of intensity techniques and things like that, but just at the principal level here training hard. How do we reconcile that with the volume and the frequency of that heart? So you know, people are asking, Well, what does that mean? Does that mean I have to do I do the compound lifts? And then I go toward failure? Do I you know, how many days per week like, we want to go to that next level? Sure.
Jordan Lips 06:44
Sure. If we and we want well, I can list out what I would do if I was speaking with someone whose goal is efficiency. And we can pick apart any of them that we'd like I think the stuff for starters, remind people that they probably need less of the less than they think if they do these things, number two would be the most important thing is going closer to failure, then the utilization of intensity techniques like drop sets, my reps, shorter rest periods in general, you can talk about Super setting lengthen partials, on average, use more compound lifts, on average, train more in the length of position of a muscle, use exercises that provide more stability, and potentially utilize lower rep ranges. If you do all of those things, your program will get a lot of stimulus per time. And you will have to spend as much time doing.
Philip Pape 07:28
So you mentioned intensity techniques, more compound lifts. That makes a lot of sense, right? More, you're using more muscle mass for fewer movements and less time training more in the lengthened position. Stability, I want to I want to dive into that one a bit. And then you said lower rep ranges, right. Yeah. Yeah, of course, stability, expound on that one. Yeah, the
Jordan Lips 07:46
more Listen, the more the less work your body and other muscles have to do to stabilize, the more output you can get at the target muscle. And so if we look at something like a back squat versus a hack squat, a hack squat takes care of a lot of the stability, you're moving on a fixed path, you don't need to stabilize the hips, the machines doing all that for you. And so you're able to get greater output in the quads. There's bad exercises, we could do more stability slash less technical, less coordination heavy. And so the more you know, I listen, I think free weights are amazing. This isn't like an anti free weights thing. But on average, if I can find a really great machine option, or a really great cable option, chances are I can get greater output there. Because I'm going to be provided the stability that normally I'd have to create internally. And so when it comes to rows, let's get a chest support. When it comes to squats, hack squat, leg press, leg extension, more controlled environments, less technique, heavy, less coordination requirements, less stability requirements, you'll get greater output at the muscle or set. That doesn't mean remember, we're talking about a spectrum, we're talking about skewing things on average, we're not talking about only doing I wouldn't say only compound, I wouldn't say only lengthen, I wouldn't say only mega high stability, perfect scenario stuff. But But on average, if you're like, Hey, I'm writing my program, should I have a hack squat? Or should I do a back squat, I only get one squat pattern for my quads. It's like, you know, the at least appeal to what would be more optimal for your quads, you'd go with the hack squat because of the additional stability because of the fact that you don't need to use hips and glutes as much. Yeah, and
Philip Pape 09:15
I totally agree. And honestly, in my personal experience lately, running some bodybuilding type training, mainly to manage fatigue for me, you know, being that I've had low back fatigue and doing a lot of the big lifts for so long. I definitely get it the counter argument people might make is, well, with the squat, you're working out so many different muscle groups. And yes, stability as part of that. That's actually by definition part of it. So why isn't that more efficient than breaking it up? Now I have to do four different movements.
Jordan Lips 09:42
Yeah, that is fair, if you're going to say, well, if I'm going to do a hack squat that's hyper biased towards the quads, or I'm going to only back squat and I'm going to make it kind of, you know, the, the I say annoying term because people aren't using it. But the term that we were taught is Omni just meaning like covers many bases, covers more than one thing and not just squatting to squat. And we're getting a decent adductor stimulus, decent quad service, decent glutes stimulus, yes, if I only get one lower body movement, it wouldn't be a hack squat, it would be a balanced, it might be a hack squat with a higher foot position, right, engage a little bit more glutes, it wouldn't be something hyper specific from a biased perspective. But I would still pick something of more stability. I mean, if I only get one lower body, let's say lengthen position movement, it's gonna be a leg press or a high foot hack squat, let's say, still, with the stability, but I just wouldn't bias towards one thing too much. And neat and not, but I don't know where your listeners are on the spectrum of like, terminology. But like, there's no such thing as like a stabilizing muscle. And when we're just talking about muscle growth, having to expend extra energy stabilizing or engaging the core, we're just talking about muscle growth, those are negatives, those are energy leaks, those are things that you're doing that are going to take away from ultimately bringing the target muscle close to failure too much, you know, I need to brace my core, I need to think about what my core is doing, you know, I need to make sure my technique doesn't break down, I mean, 99.999% of people are going to stop an RDL or a back squat, because of a technique breakdown, or core demands or breathing demands or lower back fatigue. Notice how none of those things, you know, had to do with lower body musculature. But if I asked you why you stopped doing a leg extension, it's because your quads hurt. And that's it. And so, the goal for hypertrophy is to take target muscle, or muscles close to failure, not something else. And, you know, the amount of precision that you need to target one muscle at a time becomes greater than more advanced, you get becomes more general when you're just starting out. And so that definitely is another piece of context of where people are in the journey. But but it's not, it doesn't change all that much. I think at the end of the day, we are looking for, on average, more stability, on average, more output, on average, closer to failure to get a bit more bang for the buck.
Philip Pape 11:51
So this concept of stimulus fatigue ratio, you're basically saying the denominator, the denominator, the fatigue is what we're trying to minimize here through this process and eliminate the leaks, eliminate the, I'll even say psychological effort, right with some of these high technique lifts all of it compounds into fatigue, that doesn't translate directly into our goal,
Jordan Lips 12:14
which is to build muscle not to pick that at all, because your heart isn't right. 100% right, you can you can nitpick it though, or those are all appeals to SFR to make that ratio better. But what's interesting is we're talking about efficiency. And I don't want to take it to the extreme in the sense of a full blown minimalist. But what's interesting about efficiency, when you're training with someone who's I'm, I'm looking for time efficiency, is if you look at SFR, the the F really doesn't matter that much. Because it's unlikely that in three to four days of lifting, unless they're really long workouts, which again, kind of goes against the efficiency thing, it's it's on likely that you're going to run into a fatigue endpoint. And what I mean by that is like it's, it's more about maximizing the percent stimulus I'm when we talk about maybe adding in cardio, and all of a sudden, somebody's doing a lot of training, lifting and cardio, that overall fatigue is certainly something we need to focus on. But like not to be, again, everything is nuanced. Everything is context. But if I have somebody training three days a week, there's just three days a week, 60 minutes, let's put a cap on it. There's just nothing they could do in 180 minutes per week, and I'm worried about them overtraining, unless they're in a huge deficit, and if death in the family, and they got laid off, and they're, unless you have a ton of extra life stress, I'm less concerned with the F part of that equation. And I'm more concerned with the s part of that equation. Because I just don't think, you know, you're going to sooner run into an issue of I'm not progressing because my stimulus isn't high enough, then I'm not progressing because my fatigue to
Philip Pape 13:38
that totally fair point, right. And maybe the fatigue comes in when you're violating the whole premise here, which is you're not being efficient, and you're using too much volume. Also intermediate or advanced lifters who are maybe, you know, incorporating big lifts or things like that, like that. That's where I come from sometimes. What about the rank beginner, who, you know, we talked about a lot of times here, just maybe focus on strength and compound lifts initially, because they're simple, they're effective, you recover fast as a beginner, but I know there's some counterpoints to that when your goal is specifically to build muscle. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah,
Jordan Lips 14:13
I think the truth is that they're the things that are better for building muscle or better for building muscle for everyone all the time. And it's like saying, Oh, do beginners need to be in a calorie surplus, it's like, they'll build muscle just a lot faster, just like everyone else does in a surplus. So I agree with your initial statement of like, Well, I agree with the sentiment from your initial statement was that if these things matter less, they matter less because no matter what someone does, it's above the minimum effective threshold for growth. It's like, you know, if you're just starting to learn a language, go grab Duolingo or something on your phone and like you'll be you'll be infinitely better than you are today in a week. But that's still not a great tool if you want to be if you want to be fluent and that might you know, that might not matter in the first week in the first month, but at some point you're like, oh, this tool is no longer meet no longer taking me further, I need something else. And so in the big anything anything is is enough for you to grow. And so these nuances, they certainly matter less, but they are applied equally. So like I have a rank beginner is like I want to grow muscle as optimally as possible, or as efficiently as possible. I'm like, Great, let's, let's use the leg press. And if we do that, that person still has, let's use three by 60 minutes, that's just like a rough proxy for someone who's trying to train efficiency efficiently, I'm gonna use that person's 880 minutes a week, the same way, it just, they can lose less sleep over whether or not they've been doing something else for a while a lot of people that come into the hypertrophy space, they discovered that as a term, and they're like, Oh, my God, I need to be only doing these high stability machines. And it's like, okay, like, you're probably you probably haven't left a ton of gains, or you very least have been gaining just fine without this stuff for a very, very long time. And so the principles all still apply in a relative sense, were like a beginner will still grow way better. And a surplus, a beginner will still grow better with the same things that you know, Arnold would be growing better with, but it just matters less in the sense of you can probably make gains that you're satisfied with without worrying about something. Okay,
Philip Pape 16:04
yeah. And to be even more specific, where I was going with that is the idea that there has to be some foundation of strength to really push the hypertrophy movements. And I know there's a little bit of a an assumption there that that's flawed. Maybe but that that's the argument that's made, right. Yeah,
Jordan Lips 16:20
I you still finding that you're saying that is that I have a man who said we're just gonna take a small d I'm gonna derail us for just one second. It's all good. And I have a clip from the mind pump guys basically making this like just react, just want to talk about this. And so I have a clip of, of the mind pump guys basically saying like, the best thing you could do for muscle growth is like spend a lot of years getting strong, just like, literally makes no sense at all, as if they're two totally different things. As if you're not getting stronger doing hypertrophy, as if there's some base of strength that potentiate greater hypertrophy later, it doesn't derail us again, that they just had Dave Asprey on the podcast and and I kind of went off in the comments section, and there's like, 900 notifications of people ripping me apart in there, which is hysterical, but I don't know where they're going with that. But anyway, anyway, anyway, this idea that you need a strength base, just it's just like, it's more of this like, romanticized being from like, the old 70s and 80s. And clanging and banging the weights around before you can get into the nitty gritties is not true at all, like, you know, there's hypertrophy and strength in the beginning, are there overlap? Imagine a Venn diagram, the overlap is like, basically completely overlapped in the beginning, you're getting stronger and building muscle as fast as humanly possible, simultaneously, for a very long time. And then if you want to diverge into more strength related pursuits, then yes, they diverge, you know, the further you do something, but you certainly don't need to be like, Oh, I should be focusing on sets of three to five in the beginning, because I'm a beginner and I should focus on getting strong first, it's just, you just, there's no rationale for that at all. I mean, if you want to build them, I mean, what could be a rationale for that? Just psychologically, maybe there's something cool to expose people to like, you know, heavy hard sets, maybe there's something psychologically there, but I actually think even more so. Working with more moderate loads in moderate rep ranges, probably more beginner friendly. So you don't need a strength base, you're gonna get stronger doing hypertrophy. Sometimes I'll have people in my group, which is, it's literally called the hypertrophy. Alright. So like, obviously, that's our goal. And I'll have people come in and you know, they're like, Well, I really was really hoping we'd focus on strength. I'm like, you should be doing that. Every time you come to the gym. You did eight last week, for nine. Like what even is strength? Strength is a vague thing, like strength is a contextual word like strength at what like, do you want to get better at a one rep max, deadlift is that strength? What about an eight rep max? RDL?
Philip Pape 18:48
Right, right. Yeah, you're right. You know, it's like the specificity aspect of it, I think, is what people talking about with strength, right in the low rep range. But you're right, there's, you know, my coach, Andy Baker comes originally from the starting strength world that definitely has broadened into what we're talking about. And, you know, he's makes the argument that if you if you work, your leg press, it won't translate directly to a max PR squat the next day, but once you get the neuromuscular adaptation back, you'll get there quickly. Yeah, yeah,
Jordan Lips 19:13
that's, that's a site and again, you got your your added context was translate to a backs back squat, which with that added context changes the game for sure. So
Philip Pape 19:23
maybe one or two more things around this aspect of time efficiency. What about splits? We talked about minimalism in terms of number of days, what do splits look like that for say, beginner, intermediate, intermediate versus advanced? You know, do we like you said, you do need five or six days at some point, or can you be pretty effective at say for once your intermediate
Jordan Lips 19:42
forever? Yeah, that's a good question. I think if I am my I'm a bit of a bit of a cynic, maybe even a bit of a nihilist with this sort of thing where I think that you know, if you are a beginner that you grow with anything, grow with two days a week, grow three days a week. me for a very, very, very, very, very long time you can grow with three days a week, especially if you're doing some of the stuff we talked about four days a week, starts to be the muddy water of like, maybe this is all you'll ever need. But if I was like, you know, someone puts a gun to my head, like, hey, like, you need to be the biggest possible human you could ever be. I probably would train more than that. But I think over a 10 to 15 year span, a training career, so to speak. I think that the four day we trainee and the five or six day a week trainee who have been doing all the right things, all else being equal look, look indistinguishable from each other outside of on stage. And so I think that there's a bit of a I know in my trading career right now I know what I would have to do to get a little bit bigger is such a bad ROI. It's I'm at such a diminishing returns point, I'm not even that big, I already think my diminishing, I'd have to be in gaining phases for most of the year, I'd need to be up in the five, six days a week push really pushing my maximum recoverable volume not doing nearly as much cardio, and I probably would get bigger, for sure. But I do think that if you get to four days a week, I'll be honest, it's probably very practically speaking, I think, outside of people who want to look like bodybuilders. And the image you have in your head of the body you want can be achieved three to four days a week. And outside of like, I want to be looked like this person who has IFBB pro underscore on their name, you know, yeah,
Philip Pape 21:26
and then extrapolating that because it's not, you know, it's not so much the number of days so much as what the number of days get to you. And so if someone's schedule was like, they have a home gym, and, you know, so they're not commuting, and they have much, they don't have very much time for their sessions, could a five or six day kind of spread out the fatigue program match a four day program in that sense. Absolutely.
Jordan Lips 21:49
I mean, without a doubt, I actually quite like this approach for people with home gyms. I quite like this for myself for a while I train seven days a week for a while. And then I went to six days a week for a while, well, what maybe two to three exercises a session maybe like 20 minute sessions. And it worked fantastically well. I mean, there was emotionally looking at that workout, there was never a moment where I was like, Oh, I can't get through incline dumbbell press, single arm, half kneeling, pull down bicep curl, you know, there's just there was never like something that had happened to me where I'm like, I can't put 20 minutes in. And so that made that was really accessible. I do find that psychologically, it wasn't my favorite over the long term. It was really great to experiment. But I really liked having, like when it comes to, there's almost like a buy in fee in terms of fatigue, where for me, it was like, you know, after doing that, for many months, I was, I started to add in some cardio, which I'm sure will transition to at some point. But it felt like a lot of two days. Now all of a sudden, were just when I was looking at that as again, instead of doing this for six days, even if they're more like these workouts, snacks, again, total work across the week, equating to let's say, you know, 180 minutes across the weeks, I'm four by 45, or three by 60. This was like six by 30. Right? 180 Cool, good math. Once I started incorporating some cardio, it felt like I was having two days all the time, which psychologically now that started to take a toll. But you're kind of initial comment of like, okay, but what, you know, days per week doesn't really tell us much. It's a proxy for work, potentially. But someone's like I'm training six days a week, they're doing two exercises per day. That is not a high volume program, even if it's a high frequency split, let's say so you're 100% right, what the total work you do across the week matters. By far the most, the only way to really violate that is to try and squeeze a five day work program with like 25 Plus working sets into one workout. But I've seen people do pretty well on like twice a week, two hour sessions. Yes, I think that there's plenty of arguments that there's probably some percentage of gains left on the table again, because that's a pretty extreme example, but it does have you know, whether we're talking about three or four or five, I think how you split it up is less important than do you get the work done. Yeah,
Philip Pape 24:00
no, cool. I want people to be aware of that. And also not violate it in the other direction by saying, Well, I'm going to work out six days a week for 90 minutes each day, because that's not what we're talking about. The other thing you mentioned was like, if you have six or seven days, like you pretty much can't have any zero days or else your schedule gets off. And that's the psychological part. I'm guessing you're talking about where it's just you got to be super, super consistent, constantly. Yep. So cycled between things can be helpful. All right. So cardio, first of all, what is the role of cardio? If you're not an endurance athlete, but you're prioritizing hypertrophy, because that's the assumption I want to make the start.
Jordan Lips 24:35
Yeah, why do you think that there's a whole host of theoretical, physiological routes, we can go with this conversation. But I will start with saying I don't think there is any and I know it's a bit of bit of an absolute. And I'll probably walk it back from that as far as an absolute statement, but I actually think that there's like, for hypertrophy, you're just free to rest a little longer if you want. So we're talking about like, Hey, I only care about means should I do cardio? Not really, you know, you should do it for general health because a generally healthy person probably builds muscle a bit better. But if you're not watching this on YouTube, I'm squinting pretty hard when I say that. And so I think this should be I think, when we talk about cardio, how
Philip Pape 25:16
old are you squinting? Because like, if you're lifting and have that lifestyle, you're generally healthy. No,
Jordan Lips 25:21
no, no, I'm saying because I don't think that it's going to make you better at hypertrophy in any meaningful fashion.
Philip Pape 25:29
Okay, so even even even the word capacity and all of that you don't think has, I
Jordan Lips 25:32
think the word capacity shows up in your ability to recover between sets. So from an efficiency standpoint, I get, let's say I do split squats, and I do my right leg. Man, at my worst peak, 30 pounds heavier than I've been here, no cardio 220 pounds, I rest three minutes between legs, I do one leg, I lay down on the back on my back on the floor. Now in the best cardiovascular shape I've ever been in, which is to say, like, average, across like a population level. You know, I could do 75 seconds, I could do 60 seconds, you know, I could train that my right leg really freaking hard and be kind of ready to go again pretty soon. So my ability to do more work in a short span of time is better. So efficiency can improve efficiency. Look at that, like this, like better work capacity. It's interesting is better work capacity. The implication is I can do more work now. But I'd be interested if the ability to do more work is one of those physiological adaptations that have made you able to do more work, as that also turns you into a person who has to do more work. Right. If we talk about some of the adaptations from an a&p CAE perspective, from a fiber type perspective, I don't even think they're all that meaningful. I'm already transcending into something I don't think matters. But I don't think, Oh, I'm in better cardiovascular shape. Thus, I can do more work. We've already decided we are talking about this, this in the context of a bit of efficiency. And so the ability to do more work, it's like, Yeah, but I'm already capped for time. And so I think this matters more from going in a state of poor health to a state of generally better health. So if we're talking about somebody who's, who has obesity, potentially not in a metabolically healthy place, if we get them to a place where they improve their cardiovascular fitness, they can now probably survive an hour of hard training. But if you're already kind of a generally healthy person who can do an hour of lifting without, like keeling over, like getting an even better cardiovascular shape. I don't see how that makes you better at hypertrophy. I'm the biggest advocate of people doing cardio. So let's just like get that out of the way. I'm, that's like, I'm a complete cardio. Yeah, we
Philip Pape 27:32
can talk. Yeah, no, we can get into that. But yeah,
Jordan Lips 27:34
yeah, not, I'm not sold on that as an aspect, I guess.
Philip Pape 27:37
And you know, I want to connect to that in like with real world examples here, because a lot of my clients are longtime lifters who want to work on their nutrition. Some of them have desk jobs. So they get like 3000 steps a day, there were their resting heart rate isn't as low as it could be. Right. They have some of the lower cardiovascular health, but it hasn't really slowed them down. And that is kind of what you're saying. It really hasn't. I want to say sir, walking a little more, they get a little bit healthier. They don't get out of breath as much. But like you said, maybe it doesn't quite move the needle, unless you're coming from a very obese, very sedentary situation. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. So then if there's not much of a, let's say, positive, other than a little bit of this in between set, recovery, what other reason we have cardio or, you know, should we do cardio? What's the dosage like that? That's where I'm going because, and also fat, fat loss versus gaining because people think of it as a cardio or a calorie burning thing, which we know there's a lot of misconceptions there as well. So yeah, go down all that rabbit hole. Cool.
Jordan Lips 28:36
I've just closed the book on that. Just to clarify, before I have the pitchforks out, it's like, I just don't think that the average person who's only like, if someone's like, I'm doing cardio, I'm like, What are you doing before and they're like, so I can get more jacked. It's like, there's the I don't think that there's a direct route that you can point me towards, but moving to like, why you should do it. general health. I mean, general health is a bit vague, cardiovascular fitness pulmonary function, just like every other. Like, if you think of health as a pie chart, and you think of all of the things you could do, and having a full pie chart, every kind of sliver filled is the optimally healthy person. The truth is, and I've been, you know, I grew up as a very hypertrophy focused, complete, you know, egomaniac only cared about how I looked like, which by the way is great, it kind of whatever, it served me as like a young 20 year old idiot. Like, you know, if somebody were to ask me, Hey, Jordan, I lift and I eat nutritious foods. I don't have too much body fat, and you know, I get, you know, a decent amount of steps, but that's it. I don't do any cardio. Is that enough to be optimally healthy? The technical answer is no, because you use the word optimally. If you said is that enough to be generally healthy, I'm good, go to my doctor and have good blood markers. Absolutely. And if people are trained four days a week, get 10,000 steps. eat nutritious foods try not to have too much body fat and are doing just fantastically well. I think that is if we talked about the pie chart, filling it a ton. It's a filling that pie chart a ton, but that pie Listen, there's this blank sliver here and it's covered by something more intense than walking, right, some sort of cardio more intense by walking and then even that sliver is balanced a sliver like a small sliver, it's actually quite a big sliver in terms of optimal, the pursuit of optimal health is going to be covered by some form of higher intensity, higher, just meaning higher than walking the dog. And so I think for general health, we're talking Listen, CDC physical activity guidelines, we're talking 150 minutes of low to moderate intensity cardio, which for some people could just be intentional walking, risk walking, other Morfitt people, just on average for that person is going to mean maybe zone two training. And then we're 75 minutes of vigorous exercise, which is, you know, whatever more in that like, north of zone to jogging sports, something where you're, you know, really get your heart rate up huffing and puffing so 150 minutes, low to moderate 75 minutes. vigorous exercise is, you know, the CDC guidelines for physical activity and what's funny is like, people were like really anti government recommendations for stuff the RDA for protein sucks the RDA for salt sucks, like, we can have those chats, but they get this one spot on and spot if you are like a confused person for where to start. 150 minutes a week of low to moderate intensity cardio and two days per week lifting bad is their recommendation and it is incredible and they get it so spot on. I just chuckled because I feel like I feel like there's just such an anti like governmental government recommendations when it comes to health, but they really do get that spot on.
31:29
Hi, my name is Alan. And I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Wits & Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Phillip works tirelessly, and with dedication to provide coaching support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research. And Phillip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Phillip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, Philip Pape is the real deal. He knows how to assess in direct nutrition, and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Phil.
Philip Pape 32:20
So if we were to extrapolate a person's lifetime, right, let's say they're that they're a lifter, they lift three this week, they get 10,000 steps, they eat nutritiously. They get enough sleep, their stress is good. Longevity wise, because that's the other people argument people make or maybe there's complicated things going on at the cellular level with mitochondria with everything else, right? Is Is there anything that says hey, you're gonna miss out or you're going to like die five years unit sooner or something like that without having some little more vigorous cardio in there. We don't have
Jordan Lips 32:49
a longitudinal study of people who didn't do any cardio and another group who did just like looking into like a, like looking into those people's lives for the last 25 years seeing when they die. We don't necessarily have that. But we do have a non perfect piece of data that vo two max is the correlates the greatest it's the single greatest correlate to healthy aging to longevity is VO two Max, not muscle mass and I'm not muscles again, muscle is the fucking Fountain of Youth man, I'm big, biggest again, biggest advocate of lifting. It's just like, there's nothing like it. It's completely unique. You need to be doing it. And I wouldn't. There's a lot of people who are like, let's say more on the cardio is way better side of things, which I'm not that will hang their hat on this research of hey, VO two max is the single greatest correlate to healthy aging that we have. And it's a correlate. You know, people who live longer probably also have healthy beauty maxes. And so, you know, there's a bit of healthy user bias maybe. And so it's it's not, it's not a human randomized control trial. It's not a 30 year cohort study. It's not like this amazing, amazing thing, but like it is can't really get away from the fact that improving your VO to max is whatever and VO to max doesn't need to be complicated. Let's use that as a proxy for cardiovascular fitness. Who cares? People with good cardiovascular fitness. That's like an amazing correlate for healthy aging. And so it's really hard to reconcile that.
Philip Pape 34:08
Okay, so then the other side, fine. Yeah, and I'm totally on board with all of that, because I don't want to start telling my clients, you need to do three HIIT sessions a week, or you're gonna just die young. The other side is what the interference effect. And we know, we know, that's been overblown as well, but there is some negative from too much cardio, I would suspect so. And also depending on your recovery capacity, your age, and also if you're gaining or losing, given all of that, like what is general recommendation for dosing, if you want to have that in there, maybe because you enjoy it, maybe just because you'd like to do it or you're doing a sport, something like that.
Jordan Lips 34:42
Yeah, I'll start by saying, you know, you're doing too much if you start to regress, and I don't want to just be myopic and very reductionist and make it all about that, but the greatest indication of recovery is performance, and so am I can consistently performing, you know, and that means ability to progress that stuff. And so if we were to take a hypothetical of a person who lifts who wants to do some cardio, how do they know they're doing too much. And it's like, if you start showing up to your lifts, and you can't progress, and you start to regress, and I don't just mean as a one off, by the way, that shit happens, you know, you have a day, you know, something didn't progress you match last week, no worries, I'm talking about a trend of regression, a trend of, of feeling fatigued trend of showing up to the gym not being able to match what you did the previous week, that is a sign of, I'm doing more on average than I can recover from. Now, you can blame the cardio there, but it is technically more of like your cup is full with, with ever from everything you've poured into it. And if you care about lifting, then you'd look at the cardio as hey, that's interfering with what I really want. If you're an average lifter, and you're like, Hey, I hear Jordan talking about this like sliver of health thing that I should probably care about, but but I really like statically care about getting jacked, and I'm short on time, where do I put my eggs, I would start with, if you had two days of cardio, one of them, I would do low intensity zone to training one of them, I would do something higher, something in the zone 345 I think there's a lot of room for not needing to be so crazy with where you are in that context. But I think that there are adaptations that happen at higher intensities, that that happened much better there. And there are adaptations at a low intensity that, you know, the biggest benefit of doing low intensity cardio is it's less likely to interfere with your lifting. There's all this talk about So in true training, there's so much hype right now, the biggest benefit of zone two is that it has an elite SFR is you can do so much zone you can do and benefit from so much the way by coach Alex viata. Shout out Massmart describe zone two as it has a really low floor in terms of how much you need to do and get a benefit. And it has no ceiling. And so it's like you can do 30 minutes of Zone Two, and it's helpful and not fatiguing. And you can do 300 minutes a week or zone two and not get tired. And it's it's not so black and white. Technically everything has a fatigue cost. But practically speaking, if you're a lifter who's like, Man, I don't want I don't want to do that thing Jordan just said where I show up to my lifts and I can't progress. Cool. Start with some zone two sessions, which just means slightly, slightly more intense than going out for a walk in the park. You know, some incline walking, you know, for doing Stairmaster a little bit faster, some biking like something that's a little bit more intense than walking the dog.
Philip Pape 37:28
Maybe rucking. Yeah. So now we'll explore that a little bit. I heard you talking about the SFR of endurance activities. I think that may be on Jeff's podcast, I thought it was a nice, parallel, because we always use it in the lifting world. And I think they have more well established understanding of that, if anything in the Cardio World. But if, let's say in a fat loss phase, recovery capacity is limited. And you're trying to keep that expenditure relatively high. And you normally would get, say 10 to 15,000 steps. Would it be more effective from an SFR perspective than to replace some of those steps with zone two in this context and get more for your time? Without added fatigue?
Jordan Lips 38:05
Yeah, definitely. Oh, my God, definitely, I think if you're, if you're someone who normally gets on the treadmill and walks at three miles an hour, and you're looking for a way to not cost yourself more time, but get more benefit, yeah, walk at three miles an hour on a 10 incline, get your heart rate, whatever, you know, roughly in like 120 to 150, it could differ for people who've been helping telling clients that like, Hey, I'm not, we're not necessarily looking for an addition of another session. But when you're already going for a walk outside, you know what if you jog for 30 seconds, five times throughout the walk, and you were able to just reach up and get a little bit of that benefit that's at higher that you can only get at higher intensities. You know, I really am a probably said this on just podcast. But every time we talk about cardio as a person who comes from a lifting background has a big community that is very lifting dominant, we run the risk of making people feel like they have another thing they have to do. And I know this is great. Trust me, I have a great chat here about efficiency like you're super in, Your Honor, you obviously work with real people, because that's where you're coming from here. And so I really do think that Okay, guys, listen, we're not trying to say you need to go ahead and all of a sudden do five days or zone two, but maybe look at, it's like when people are trying to increase their portion of their protein intake. It's like, before we freak out or anything, take the protein you're already eating and increase the portion size, scale it up. Right. And so that's kind of what we're saying here. If you already get on the elliptical, 510 minutes, let's say you do like, let's say you do like a five minute warm up before your session. Maybe it's 15 minutes now and it's sewn to and maybe on the back end of that you throw another 15 minutes and it's slightly faster. The thing about Zone Two is like actually challenging Zone Two is more boring than it is hard like you're done with a zone two session and you can't wait to get off more because you're like kind of just want to go do other things less because you're like knackered I don't know why I've never said knackered in my whole life but that's the word we're gonna go it's cool.
Philip Pape 39:52
Oh, man, that was a word used on the other podcast, I thought was like the word of the day. You must have like a thesaurus ready to go with it was concomitant ly Yeah, let's go. Okay, well, one more cardio question and that is during the fat loss phase how what are your just general thoughts on using cardio for expenditure? When you can fit it in? Is it anything beyond what we just talked about? Because some people again, I think overdo it.
Jordan Lips 40:15
Yeah, I definitely think some people overdo it, I would put at the top of that hierarchy of like steps as a proxy for overall movement. And certainly the thing that I would talk about most get X amount of steps, do it in a way that you enjoy that feels sustainable. Let's have a discussion about fatigue. If you're first to answer to that question, have you doing nothing but a ton of high intensity sprinting and running because then I think we might be looking at some fatigue bleeding over. But I'm way more concerned with people getting enough total movement in a way they enjoy that feels sustainable. Before I'm worried about what and how they're doing that. I think I've been more open to the idea of, hey, if you always walk, what have you tried doing some so to like, it's rare that I'll encourage somebody to change what they're doing. If they're already getting like eight to 12,000 steps, like I'm super pumped that you're, that's a very active person. But there is something to be said, maybe when people who are even more active like, just walk all they do is walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk 15,000 steps, there. And if they are looking for, they're like looking under a rug for something to help them push fat loss a bit more, maybe they've hit a plateau and they don't want to go lower calories. There is some I'll take a complete flier, I'm putting a million disclaimers here because I don't think it's a big deal. But But changing what you're doing based on a theoretical efficiency that you've built doing that thing. So if you just walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, you're getting 15,000 steps a day, Man, am I going to tell you to go to 20 and just walk even more, you're probably so efficient at that movement that those next 5000 steps, that's a 33% increase, you're not getting an extra 33% calorie burn off, it's a lot less. So maybe I'm like, hey, you've been Walk, walk, walk, walk walk at like zone one more like just just getting like movement throughout the day. What if you did a couple days of higher intensity a couple of ways and so on to maybe you change the modality, you don't even have them to higher intensity, you're like, Oh, you were walking let's bike, let's do something you're a little less efficient at. And efficiency is great for performance. It's less good when you're trying to burn calories, which true. We're not trying to make cardio all about that. But I also think in the same breath like, that is a good thing. Cardio does like it let's be real like It's like moving more as if you're like, yes or no moving more will correlate better with like weight maintenance, like yes, but I wouldn't want like getting super hyper focused on the calorie burn side. Nice.
Philip Pape 42:34
I think there's a really important message for people to hear, because we do hear that a lot. I've had people say, Well, I'm doing 20 or 25,000 steps like oh, you know, how much compensations probably going on to it's it's the exact same thing. And yeah, I've heard that argument before. If you if you're really clumsy at biking, you never do it go bike because you're going to be burning a ton more calories per work put in. So yeah, great, great ideas. And you're sort of quotable from this section that I liked that was just very simply put was the greatest indication of recoveries performance, you just want people to remember that, because that is a great, self limiting thing that you can experiment with and measure. All right, metabolic adaptation. Let's get into that moment here. I've talked about this on the show many times, and but I enjoy the brutally clear way that you explain it, especially the fact that it just exists, you know, we can't change that it exists. And people misconstrue that concept with behaviors and lifestyles and things that you can do around the fact that that adaptation exists. So what is it? Why or why doesn't it matter? And what should we really put our energy into carrying about?
Jordan Lips 43:38
Cool, good. Let's see, let's keep it succinct, keep the vocab going. Metabolic adaptation means when we're talking about in the context of fat loss, is the reduction in metabolic rate beyond which you'd expect from the weight loss alone. So if you were 200 pounds, and you're now 150, like you're a smaller machine that requires less energy, metabolic adaptation as well, based on mathematically, how much we would predict how much less energy we think you would need based on the fact that your record is the size, we see that there's an additional reduction in metabolic rate beyond which you'd expect from just the weight loss alone. So that is what metabolic adaptation. The reason I and I think metabolic adaptation and hormones are fascinating to learn about fascinating to talk about and should never come up in your brain as a regular person. Like it's just they're simultaneously fascinating, but also not anything they are. They are things that like that we won't go to hormone side, let's stay let's stay focus here, Jordan, or metabolic adaptation perspective. It's just the truth is like, the things that you should be really focused on are modifiable variable. And so like, you know, except the things you cannot change all that that whole quote thing, but like you can't do anything about metabolic adaptation. You know, you can do things is to continue to see success in the face of metabolic adaptation. But as an isolated variable, you can't affect metabolic adaptation, you can do things like lift weights, you can do things like cuts, maintaining muscle, you know, gives you that slight, slight slight benefit of having more muscle, you can maintain a step count, because what we see is that the greatest reduction, the greatest portion, where reduction happens is in your subconscious movement. So if subconscious movement is going down subconscious, by definition is something you can't do anything about. You can manually override by making sure you're hitting your step count. And so you can do things to make metabolic adaptation less of an issue, but you can't do anything to affect it. And the reason I think that's such an important distinction is because there is so much rhetoric around fixing a damaged metabolism, healing, metabolic adaptation, reversing metabolic adaptation, like there's just nothing, no reason to believe that that's even possible. While it is possible, but it's just not ever, it should never be the thing you're trying to do. Metabolic adaptation exists when you when you go into a calorie deficit, your body doesn't know if that's a starvation million years ago, or a voluntary calorie deficit and 2024. And so process has happened down regulation of thyroid and sex hormones, cortisol goes up, you know, hunger signals go up all of that, but you can't do anything about it. Now, you can do practical things to make your fat loss phase more successful, but they don't have anything to do with blunting metabolic adaptation, or reverse dieting at the end to heal metabolic adaptation. And the reason I'm so bullish on this is because if this was an area of research that we didn't know a lot about, and we were doing a lot of like mechanistic speculation of like, oh, this would make sense. And, you know, metabolism can upregulate Emily have a ton of research, metabolism can up regulate, and I can word vomit on that. But if this was something we weren't quite sure about, and we were really trying to fill the gaps with something we think made sense. And this kind of, you know, has some people out there who have had experiences like this. Fine. But we do have a ton of research on this. Like we have a ton of we have boatloads we could seek the Titanic with the amount of research we have on weight loss and weight regain, and changes in metabolism when people do that. And so that that, to me is something that Eric Trexler opened my eyes to in the last couple of years of like, you know what, like, if this was something we weren't all that sure about, like I would, I could change my tone and accept people making like logical leaps. But we have a ton of research that and when I say ton of research, what I mean is that the idea of alright, what are my biggest gripes here? Let me get the gripes out on the stage is that if you are if you go into a calorie deficit, you lose weight, and then you gain that weight back, there is an idea that if you keep doing that, that you will have a reduced metabolic rate. That is not something we see in the literature, we see the complete cessation, the complete reversal, the complete undoing of metabolic adaptation all the way back to baseline when people regain the weight back. And so this idea of you're not losing weight, because of metabolic adaptation, or because you were a chronic Dieter are because you're a chronic under eater, and you've damaged metabolism, and you have to eat more, so that you can fix it. It's, it's, it's that I don't even remember what this guy's name is. Oh, my God, it's so depressing. The like, it never happened to guy but like, it never happened. It's made up like,
Philip Pape 48:14
yeah, I don't know, my writer,
Jordan Lips 48:17
I'm not sure what to say. But like, that just doesn't happen. That's just not a thing. And my last gripe with that is I like, there are people out there listening to this right now. They're like, Jordan, that's not true. That's what happened to me, I increased my calories. And I started losing weight, or I increased my calories. And then I was able to go down and cut at higher calories. So they have a lived experience that seems to go counter to what I'm saying. And I love that for you. I'm so happy when someone's like, no, Jordan, I was eating 1200 every day. And then my coach reversed it up to 2000. And now I'm cutting on 1700 and losing weight. I'm so happy for that person. But I've mean this in the nice way. Like that did not happen. Like, technically that did not happen. Your experience totally happened. But you were not eating 1200 and by going by changing your targets in my fitness palette 2000 What What actually happened was you were able to be more consistent, actually adhere to your calories, and actually probably reduce the average calories you weren't eating, you are eating because at 1200 You benched every six, seven that day on the weekend, are you forgetting calories here and there? And so I just think metabolic adaptation isn't something you can do anything about it exists in differing amounts we we have it's highly genetic, highly individual. And it's not stopping you from losing weight. It's not the reason you're overweight. I'm not not sympathetic to the fact that weight loss is hard. All I'm saying is that's not the boogeyman I agree with everyday
Philip Pape 49:41
man. I mean, I did an episode A while back called Why reverse dieting doesn't work like you think because the same thing Trexler was actually on the show. We talked about that and you know I use recovery dieting with folks all the time. It's it works wonders. Just come right back to maintenance. It's the best way to recover. So a few things come to mind. First, you mentioned that you can't do anything my metabolism your baseline metabolism, right, you can definitely change your neat, which, like you said is the thing that unconsciously goes down and actually made me think of our cardio conversation because I like to track cardio and steps separately sometimes because if people add cardio, their steps will go down, often, right? Compensating, even when they don't realize it, even though cardio is a proxy for steps. But there's a hint Greg Knuckles was talking about it on stronger by science recently, the tolerance that we have for BMR in the population around the the mean that calculators tell us is like 800 calories. But for any individual, it hardly changes right over your entire lifetime until you're like in your 60s and 70s. And it starts to drop. And that could be because of muscle mass. Anyway, that's one. And then I did want to ask you a question. However, because this comes up, you know, we want to keep the rate of loss reasonable when we're in a dieting phase, not just for the sustainability of it, right, but also the the metabolic adaptation or the loss of muscle mass, we don't want to lose too much muscle, does metabolic adaptation accelerate, you know, is there like a curve? Where if you go too quickly, the adaptation above and beyond? Like you said, the weight loss changes? Or is it fairly linear? Like to give me an answer that,
Jordan Lips 51:08
yeah, absolutely, you should have Martin McDonald come on and talk about this. It's like a rubber band, metabolic adaptations, like a rubber band, if you pull a rubber band back three inches fast of it's actually a bad example, because if you let pull it back fast and let go quickly, then it will react with the stronger force. But if I pull it back quickly, three inches and hold it there, where I pull back slowly, three inches and hold it there, there's the same amount of tension on this rubber band. And so this idea of like, all your gear, gotta be go, I have more time. If you're like, we want to rant rant more on this, but this idea of, you're gonna go so low, in cat don't go so low in calories, because then you'll have nowhere to go. I just doesn't make any sense at all. It's I'm not saying to diet aggressively. I think there's practical reasons not to go aggressive for sure. But it's not because Oh, you'll adapt, and then you'll have nowhere to go, you know what the biggest adaptations that you'll make to 1000 calories. A ton of weight loss, like the biggest adaptation we make is the accrual of or loss of tissue, muscle tissue, fat tissue, all tissue. And so if you're like, you know, two and a pound person, and there's someone out there, like don't go to 1000 calories, because it's going to tank your metabolism, or you're going to adapt too quickly, and you'll have nowhere to go, you will adapt a lot quickly. At 100 By the time you're 150 pounds, so
Philip Pape 52:20
you'll lose a much better way to Yeah, now. Now, again, that's
Jordan Lips 52:23
not a suggestion. It's only just to remember the calorie number you choose to use. That's just not a factor in your decision making. I'm even more bullish on the muscle loss isn't a factor in the decision. And that's, I think that's a contestable thing that I happen to stand on the side of, I don't care if you lose, you know, if you lose 20 pounds, and more of it is muscle. I think you've gained those four pounds of muscle back in the next four months of training and eating with more food, so I'm not too worried about it. I think if you can avoid losing muscle, you absolutely should. But if I have a client who's you know, going to perform better on their overall calories on point five grams per pound of protein? Again, I think from a satiety perspective, I do not see them higher from the other practical. Yeah, for muscle building perspective, I'd nudge them higher. But if they're bullish, I'm like, I don't want to eat that much. And I'll do my calories, but I'm not eating them. Okay, great. I'm not worried about using muscle, you're gonna lose 20 pounds, you're gonna be super mega happy, as long as you're training. I mean, the training stimulus is like, infinitely more stimulative towards muscle growth than the deficit is catabolic than the protein is anabolic. Yeah, I'm not worried about short term deficits causing muscle loss. I'm worried if you're a chronic lifter, you know, I mean, if you're a lifetime lifter, then this is just a non issue that we're looking at a graph of like, that would be going up in lifting. It's like you're digging a hole. And every time the hole gets deeper, you're building more muscle. It's like, okay, for this one deficit, you kicked a little dirt in the hole, but like, you're still digging, so okay, the dirt went in the hole. And, you know, the next three months, you're still bigger than you were before. So I'm not so worried about that. Yeah, bodybuilders
Philip Pape 53:53
show us it can be done over and over again. Don't get down to crazy leanness over, you know, eight month long cuts. And it still works. And it's funny because Dr. Bill Campbell is on he's gonna be on next week as well. We're gonna talk about rapid fat loss because he's doing all that research. Yeah, she's amazing. And I think was able to survive. He say his name, you know who I'm talking about. He was recently talking about the exact thing you said where, and maybe we shouldn't be so concerned about the muscle loss if you're training hard. And if you want to go more aggressively, just do it. If you want to go 1.2 1.5% And you can handle it, do it. Now. There's the practical and sustainability factors where, you know, most of my clients, I'm not going to do that with them. But occasionally, lifters Yeah, we'll do that two week, you know, super fast microcut get them out. And like you said, Yeah, metabolic adaptation increases with sodas, the weight loss, you're kind of getting one for the other. And when I look at people's expenditure curves, generally it just trends fairly linear in parallel with their weight loss. So it's not like it's dropping away down below the rate of rate loss. Okay. I was gonna ask you a bunch of questions about like, rate of loss and stuff, but I mean, people have heard that a million times here. or what else about metabolic adaptation? Do we want to address because there's the psychological aspect? You know, you talked about the one of the illusions, I think Trexler called them the illusions of it. Diet breaks, refeeds, things like that, you know, we talked about on the show that these are mainly psychological. Do you agree that 100% That's what they're for? Or is there some other benefit?
Jordan Lips 55:18
No, I think your psychological and I probably was, there was a period of my coaching where I went really hard on that rhetoric and treated, listen, let's be real, like, the goal is to get your clients the best success that they can. And that means I got really bullish about, Hey, you don't need to die breaks unless you need to. And what that means is like, the implication is we're going to die with an open ended timeframe until you feel like shit. And then we'll die break. All right, and then we'll die break on any timescale we want. Maybe it's a day at maintenance, two days of maintenance, three days of maintenance, you know, the shout to Bill Campbell, brilliant man, but his diet refeed study had some flaws. And I don't think that for the average person, it makes any difference physiologically. But I said circled back around recently, just an alternative appeal to psychology saying, maybe people do better with loose timelines. And so I couldn't bind them to the two of them. And I'd say, hey, like, we're starting this diet. I'll first ask, Do you have something on the calendar, a life event that we could shoot for and say, Hey, let's take a break them. And if we're along the way and you feel like crap, let's take a break. And so giving people a light at the end of the tunnel, but keeping the door open is as Ben become my new mentality and on the metabolic adaptation thing, things that I'd be remiss if we didn't say would be there's no amount of eating more that will change how your body adapts in the future. And the reason I'm so that's so powerful is because there's there's just so much rhetoric of that's exactly what people are doing selling you reverse dieting, and I want people to think about this for a second if you ask any bodybuilder I had. Oh my god, Australian dude. Great, great content, Steve.
Philip Pape 56:56
No, not see. Australian.
Jordan Lips 57:00
bodybuilder coach is wife is Lauren Simpson. Sorry, I'm NorCal Oh, my gosh, okay. Okay, I had more Carolyn pockets, and we're talking about the guys coached a million women to stage and if eating more changed how your body adapted to less calories in the future, bodybuilders would have the easiest job ever, because and then as I said, Mark, like when you're dieting people to stage for the 10th time, does it get any easier because think about it 10 times they went down, and then they and then they reverse diet it and if that process of eating more affected how their body would adapt in the future, it should get easier every time it gets. If anything, it gets harder every time. And Mark says it almost to the to the exact calorie comes out to the same. And so the entire offseason that a bodybuilder spends eating more food doesn't change the fact that they go to the exact same calorie amount to get to the exact same body fat level. So there's there's no amount of eating more that will change how your body adapts to calories in the future. Like even if the metabolism adapts upward, which it does. Of course it does it metabolic adaptation happens in both ways. We didn't talk about it or whatever. There's no of like starting with a higher calorie number has nothing to do with where you'll ultimately end up. Metabolic adaptation happens within 24 hours. And so you know you again, not to shout Trexler. But like when we looked at research of like the what are some of the common factors of people who undergo the most metabolic adaptation? The common factor of people who undergo more metabolic adaptation when they're dieting is having higher baseline metabolic rates. It's like the ultimate irony. It's like the the people who saw more metabolic adaptation, we're starting with higher calories. And so this idea of, well, if I could just start with higher calories, or even like, that guy over there that I know, Jordan Jordans, it must be so easy for him. He starts at higher calories than me or that isn't technically true. And what I loved in that initial episode between Eric and Greg is Greg talking about the fact that Greg is like, he was like, 220, at the time trying to lose weight. And he was on 1800 calories. And he was having so many people say that's too little. That's too little. That's too little. Yeah, making the assumption that he must be tired, must be losing muscle must be hungry, must be eating up his metabolism. And he's like, guys, like, I feel fine. I'm losing at a half pound a week. What am I supposed to do with that information? Like I mathematically, it's like eight times bodyweight, right, which we think might be low. But we need to get less emotional about the numbers and absolute and start dealing with the facts of how my client feels and what the data is telling. Yeah,
Philip Pape 59:32
agree because there's things you can't change. I think the biggest indicator of your BMR the correlator is your organ size. Okay, do you have a couple more minutes? Yeah, I got some, okay, because I love talking about this. And one of the things that comes up often is hormones and we don't have to go down too deep a rabbit hole, but like thyroid hormone, for example, which we know is kind of a direct regulator of your metabolic rate in some sense, do we do we include that in the equation of metabolic adaptation or we can assuming that a different variable that affects your metabolism, and you know, caused by imbalances or dysfunction or something like what are your thoughts on that?
Jordan Lips 1:00:08
Yeah, I'm counting it. I'm certainly counting it in there. It is one of the adaptations that happens metabolically just because of its impact on metabolism. So for sure, the the interesting thing, so people will say that to me all the time about well, what, what about what if my thyroids tanked? And I'm like, well, first of all, if you need medication, get medication. I think if you have hypothyroid, that's like, you're absolutely right. You should fix that. Well, let's say you're just an average person who thinks your thyroid is tanked. I'll use that word because that's the one that's sorted out from dieting. It's like so, okay, so when we deficit, thyroid goes down. And your your plan is to eat more to make thyroid go up. do you think's gonna happen again, when you go back to eating less, I just mean like, it is interesting to me that you're there. Like you're like trying to fix a problem that was caused by x. Assuming that when you go back to doing X, that same problem won't come back. And so it is a outside of like, mega mega niche scenarios. I don't even know if there aren't megami scenarios, that niche scenario being somebody who needs brews court requires medication. A lot of people Yeah, well, whatever your hormones are in a bad spot. I'm like, What did what caused the hormones being in a bad spot? You're like dieting? And I'm like, Well, what are you going to do after you eat board? They're like, diet, I'm like, What do you think's gonna happen that they're like, not the same thing that happened last time. Like, I just don't like crack up. I'm like, this is yeah, we're not getting anywhere. Yeah,
Philip Pape 1:01:23
no, I like to ask because there's a difference, like you said, between medical condition and just the natural cause result of dieting, I definitely have had some clients, you know, pre menopausal women, who all of a sudden had medical issues with their thyroid. And if we had been tracking properly before, then we see a very different metabolism all of a sudden, and then that's a red flag, alcohol, sleep stress, all of these other factors, again, do they affect metabolic adaptation Are they just affect the kind of compensatory factors that cause you to burn fewer calories?
Jordan Lips 1:01:55
Yeah, they, they affect your experience. And they affect your dieting experience. And so lack of sleep stress, they are things that will make this harder, they aren't things that will make you lose less weight, transiently, we can talk about water fluctuations up and down. But I think that that's almost again, a non thing to talk about, because it is transient in both directions. But lack of sleep. And having a lot of stress are more likely to impact how you feel on a day to day basis, your proclivity to want to get up and move your feelings of optimism, your likelihood to do something that's good for you, you know, even willpower, which is a bit vague, but a kind of willpower kind of bundles up a lot of that stuff. You're like, natural clippety to want to make decisions that are positive for you that that is all affected. But they are all to the left of the equation. They're not an outcome. They are things that impact your experience and how you feel and they're super duper relevant. I mean, God, I'm almost I've gotten to a point where I'm like, we're not doing a deficit until you're sleeping seven hours. Yeah, just because I've seen how hard that can make things. Right. But again, if someone's like, Hey, I'm not sleeping, and I lose weight. I'm like, Yes, physiologically. Sure. Yeah.
Philip Pape 1:03:07
Some of the misunderstandings, I think, come from the fact that the sleeping, lack of sleep makes you hungry. And therefore, if you weren't tracking, you end up consuming more thinking you're consuming the same, you know, things like that. Just a couple more questions. One is, and this is actually kind of a selfish question, because I had a very interesting experience last year with surgery, rotator cuff surgery, where post recovery, and apparently there's, there's studies that support this from like the 80s, that show your metabolic rate skyrockets during the recovery process, because of all the new tissue being rebuilt after a rotator cuff repair. And my metabolism skyrocketed by about 300 calories within like, a few weeks. And so I started to lose weight, but then it dropped and it dropped much further than it was before. And I'm in a gaining phase. And then it started to build, build, build, build, build, and is almost back to where it was. Is that a case of like, The Biggest Loser phenomenon where it just takes a lot longer to recover? But it's still gonna recover? Is there something else going on? Like, Hey, maybe I might need just wasn't as high, which I think it was, but just wondering about your thoughts.
Jordan Lips 1:04:07
So you had surgery and the reparation process boosted metabolic rate, which it totally does. And then after that process was done, you'd return to the tissue back to baseline, you're saying that it, the data would say that your metabolic rate dropped lower than that 300 lower than whatever it was elevated. Right.
Philip Pape 1:04:27
And I'm using macro factor, so and so you started. Yeah, and then I Well, I've intentionally been gaining weight ever since last April. And my point was the expenditure dropped even further below where it had been before and it took a lot longer to recover from previous cycles. Because we talked about earlier I brought it up because you mentioned earlier how like bodybuilders, we always get back to the same levels no matter what. And I've seen that personally every bulk every cut, and this one was different because it's like not up to where it normally is by a few 100 calories. So I just wanted to throw that That sounds like an interesting scenario. And what are your thoughts on it? That's yeah,
Jordan Lips 1:05:04
that is interesting scenario. I
Philip Pape 1:05:05
mean, I'm not to put you on the spot. It's good. It's
Jordan Lips 1:05:08
good. It's good to talk about these, just from a hypothetical standpoint, I don't think that it is the case that there was like a, an some sort of recoil effect, some sort of like, oh, it bounced up really high. And that the physiological response of you know, that you're like, I'm not saying you said this, but like that your body was like tired from pulling, putting all that tissue. So it recoiled by reducing metabolic rate thereafter. You know what I do at times like this, like, as much as we're having great conversation about, like, what we know about metabolism? I do think that that is also why I come back to center and say, We got to deal with the data in front of us. Yeah. There's a reality balance. There's a healthy balance of being a detective and trying to figure out why something's happening. And being a realist and acting upon what is happening. And I think a lot of people spend so much time in the Why am I up a pound today? Why did I lose weight this week? Why aren't I losing weight? Why isn't the number that I got from this calorie calculator working? Instead of I'm not this is not yielding the response that I should be getting? What do I do about a lot of I should be losing weight? I should this be should I shouldn't have to go this low. I should be. Unless of like, this is my limited reality. Let me take how I feel and the data into account and act on it. But as a hypothesis, I really don't know. That's interesting, though.
Philip Pape 1:06:23
Yeah, we can follow up on that. I mean, yeah, so like you said, so what did I do? I just adjusted my calories really needed to be based on that. And I've been writing ever since I
Jordan Lips 1:06:30
dare you. Not freak out. It just it just your calories.
Philip Pape 1:06:33
I know. It was fun when I got to up them significantly after surgery, even though I didn't need them because I couldn't train for a few weeks. But anyway, okay, cool. So I do like to ask this question of all guests, Jordan, what one question is you wish I had asked, and what is your answer? Yeah,
Jordan Lips 1:06:49
it was the thing I just said. So I blew it. And it was what like, what's like, what's like a, where do you find the most frustration with the metabolic adaptation, reverse dieting community? Where do I find the most frustration and it's this the rhetoric of feeling like they shouldn't be losing weight. And it's the emotional attachment to numbers and absolute. And so I talked about this client once a while, and which is unfair, invariably, people get upset. It's like a client, she's 160 pounds, like pretty active, pretty muscular. And when we die it she's regularly in the 1200s to lose weight, you know, eight times body weight, let's say, and she loses at a rate that would indicate that that's not a huge deficit, she loses half a percent to 1% a week, she loses maybe three quarters of a pound a week. And she has maintenance calories that are quite low. And the reason that I think I share her so much is because she came to me from like, many, many, many, many coaches reverse dieting her to the point where she gained 40 pounds. And she gained 40 pounds, because the coaches couldn't believe that she was gaining on x, right? I say x, because that's how you should think of it. She was gaining at 150 pounds 14,000 steps on 1700 calories. bloodwork looks great. Thyroid was great sex hormones were great. Biofeedback was great, sleep was great mood was great lifts are great. But without looking at that number. This was a person who was by all accounts at maintenance calories arriving, but the number and absolute when seen by the coaches, fuel them to raise her calories. And then when she started gaining weight was told, Hey, you just need to keep doing this, keep doing this, keep doing this. And when she ultimately jumped ship, it was you quit too soon. And so she's had so much success, lost 30 pounds be in the best shape of her life, and fee. And I don't just mean at the expense of her health. I mean, while like if you were to watch her biofeedback trends, if you could somehow map all of them, you'd be like, wow, this person was in a very moderate sized deficit from a state of good health in print to deep into underweight. But when I tell you the calorie number, people freak out. And so I think that there's this emotional attachment to the number. And when people are really emotionally attached to the number, what it says is they think this is a very exact science. They think that they cause I think I'm eating X, I'm really eating x because the package says it's it's 340 it's really 340 Because I'm the, you know, the calorie tracker says this and the net carbs. And there's so many variables that go into this, that, like you said, from metabolic perspective, we take if we take averages, there's, there's up to 800% on eight and 800 Calorie difference from what the calorie calculator told you. And so, I think a lot of coaches and I'm not saying if you have 180 pound person who comes to you and is saying, Hey, I'm not losing weight, and they're like, how much are they you eating? And they're like, 1200 that you should say, yeah, go ahead, just eat 1100 Like you it's okay, if that sets off an alarm. And that alarm should sound like let me make sure they're actually doing that. I think that should sound off. Verify that yes, that should sound off and I'm okay with you. Being a skeptic. You should if someone's like eating eight times bodyweight 10 times body weight not losing any weight. By the way, times bodyweight super rough back of the envelope math, not the ranges though. Yeah. You shouldn't be like, Okay, let me make let me go through and make sure they're doing as close to within a reasonable deviation of what they say they're doing. But after that, like if I could take away the emotion, I just dealt with the client, how they feel what the data is telling me, I'll see a lot more success.
Philip Pape 1:10:14
Love them in that we're going to leave it at that because I think people need to hear that message. It's like you said, x is different for everyone. Don't compare yourself to others. Don't use the static calculators and assume that to you, like you've got to get this awareness and as we've talked on this show, you've got to track you've got to measure and go from there and make decisions. All right, where Jordan can listeners find more about you and your work. Yeah,
Jordan Lips 1:10:37
I hang out on Instagram Jordan lips fitness I also podcast where optimal leads practical, I'm guessing similar host of golf guests. I have a YouTube where you could watch them as well and as 1004 videos if that's something you're interested in, but uh, yeah, if you have a question shoot me a message on Instagram. I'm I'm not too hot shit to answer. I'll answer to
Philip Pape 1:10:59
men yet. You're super responsive. So I'll throw all those in there all the links as usual. Man, this was a blast. It was even better than expected I knew is going to be good. But you covered a lot of great stuff today. So thanks so much for coming on. It was it was a lot of fun. Thanks, man. I
Jordan Lips 1:11:10
appreciate I appreciate it.
Philip Pape 1:11:13
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 152: My Complete Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint (Bulking to Get Lean and Fit Over 40)
Philip shares how he built 10 more pounds of muscle at 43 and your complete nutrition and training blueprint for doing the same thing. He discusses why you would want to gain weight on purpose, the fear of weight gain while building muscle, and the exact protocol behind it. Philip also talks about four bulking scenarios, how to distribute your macros, training principles, a new mantra to frame your mental state, and many more.
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) hosts a live training with the Wits and Weights community. He shares how he built 10 more pounds of muscle at 43 and your complete nutrition and training blueprint for doing the same thing.
He discusses why you would want to gain weight on purpose, the fear of weight gain while building muscle, and the exact protocol behind it. Philip also talks about four bulking scenarios, how to distribute your macros, training principles, a new mantra to frame your mental state, and many more.
Philip also shares a downloadable bonus guide, his Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint, that details the EXACT steps to set up your nutrition, training, recovery, and tracking to build as much muscle as possible (while minimizing fat gain) for an effective bulking phase.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
1:16 Why would you gain weight on purpose?
3:58 What is bulking, and what drives it?
6:13 Why Philip doesn't recommend scales of fat percentage sensors?
7:52 Four different bulking scenarios
2:07 Your rate of gain and tracking what you eat
15:16 How do you distribute your macros?
18:32 Should you eat carbs before or after a workout?
23:26 How do I compensate for missing carbs after cutting out alcohol?
24:13 Do you adjust the next few days if you exceed your calories?
25:22 Training principles
30:11 New mantra to frame your mental state
32:10 Things you can track
35:05 Philip's muscle-building phase
41:35 Outro
Episode resources:
Embarking on a journey of muscle growth can often be shrouded in myths and misconceptions, particularly when it comes to bulking. Many individuals, especially women, fear the process, concerned that it will lead to excessive fat gain or an undesired bulky appearance. However, with the right strategies in place, bulking can lead to substantial and transformative muscle growth, all the while enhancing metabolism and forging a healthier body composition.
The podcast episode is not just about crafting an impressive physique; it is about empowering individuals with knowledge and tools to achieve physical self-mastery. With the host's personal experience of adding 10 pounds of muscle at 43, the episode offers listeners a pragmatic nutrition and training blueprint, irrespective of their dietary preferences or fitness levels.
The conversation tackles the process of bulking head-on, dispelling fears and providing a clear path forward. One of the primary focuses is on the importance of a calorie surplus coupled with a balanced intake of macronutrients. Protein, the building block of muscle, is emphasized, with the recommendation of consuming 0.71 grams per pound of body weight for effective muscle synthesis.
Furthermore, the episode delves into the intricacies of various bulking strategies, highlighting the optimal range of gaining body weight as a balance between muscle gain and fat control. For beginners or those who have taken a hiatus from training, a more aggressive approach may be warranted, with the potential for gaining a bit more.
Flexibility in nutrition is another key topic, with the discussion including a range of dietary preferences, from carnivorous to vegetarian. The importance of including a variety of protein sources, digestible carbohydrates, and healthy fats is outlined, as well as the potential for incorporating smoothies and treats to maintain mental well-being and diet sustainability.
Tracking progress is another pillar of successful bulking, and the episode emphasizes the need for a robust tracking tool to measure weight and muscle gains accurately. The psychological aspect of bulking is not neglected, with strategies to maintain motivation and navigate the challenges of mini-cuts presented.
Lastly, the episode touches on the broader impacts of muscle gain, including increased metabolic rate, improved body composition, and the psychological benefits of achieving personal fitness goals. The host's message is clear: with the right mindset and a tailored approach to diet and training, anyone can unlock the secrets to substantial muscle growth.
As the podcast wraps up, Philip invites listeners to engage with the community and continue their journey toward achieving their dream physique. The episode serves as a powerful reminder that bulking, when done correctly, can be an empowering process leading to a stronger, healthier, and more confident self.
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
You can intuitively build muscle if you've never done it before, while also optimizing the process. So you can gain muscle, but you might gain a lot of fat. Or you might have a bunch of plateaus on the way if you try to do it intuitively, versus just getting the result you want as quick as possible. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip Pape. And this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights
Philip Pape 00:41
community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. So we are here today in our live training with the community talking about how I built 10 more pounds of muscle at the age of 43. And more specifically, the complete nutrition and training blueprint for how to do that. And if you're listening and watching, if you're watching the replay, you get a bonus guide that goes along with this that is much more detailed. And I might bring that up here in the training later on. But we're just gonna dive right in and talk about these topics, those who are alive through your questions in the chat. And we're just going to start by answering the question like Why would you gain weight on purpose? You know, a lot of people it's obvious, a lot of guys especially are like, yeah, I get I want to gain I want to build muscle makes sense. A lot of women might be fearful, some guys are fearful, you know, there's no gender divides when it comes to a fear of gaining weight, because so many of us have spent our lives dieting, not dieting, dieting, not dieting, and kind of chasing that number on the scale thinking that that's going to get us where we want to be for how, how we look how we feel, whatever, whatever reason we're going after. However, if you just just do some simple math with me here, if you weigh 150 pounds at 20% body fat, which for a male is kind of average above average, maybe probably average for most men, if not a little bit less for females just add 10% to that, if you're on a 50 pounds 20% body fat at the age of 30. And then you don't do anything the rest of your life in terms of training, or nutrition, which is the majority of people, right? Most people are not resistance training. Most people don't eat enough protein, etc. And what do you gain or lose weight over time, you're gonna lose 1% of your muscle every year. So after 30 years, by the time you're 60, you've now lost pounds and pounds of muscle. If on the other hand, you start training, you start eating the right way, even if you don't gain a lot of weight, right, even if you don't go on a muscle building phase just to maintain your weight, you are going to have at least avoid losing that muscle. And then if you do what we're talking about today, and you take time to build muscle, you can add 20 3040 pounds of muscle in your lifetime. For men, it's 40, maybe a little more for women, it's like 30. That's a lot of muscle. And if you just do simple math and say okay, I go from 150 pounds to 180 pounds of pure muscle, which implies that you've gained maybe you've done a fat loss you've gained to go down to fat loss over time to get there, you're going to be at a lower body fat percentage, right. So you're going to be like 16% body fat at 180 pounds. And so that's a that's a profound thing to just let sit with your brain that you can be 30 pounds heavier, but look leaner look more well muscled, get the physique, you're actually going for the shape that you're going for. Not only that, it gives you a higher metabolism, your baseline metabolic rates higher because muscle is more expensive, and your overall metabolisms higher because you're just carrying more weight, everything you do takes more energy, you can push more in the gym, etc. And then that means you can eat more. And that means fat loss is easier. And that means you're not dieting all the time you're instead energized all the time, energy fullness, food freedom, whenever you want. So that's what we're going for right? Throw in the chat if that's not what you want, in which case, today's session is not appropriate for you. Okay, so let's keep going. Alright, so let's bulk right, what is bulking? Exactly? The word itself scares some people because they don't want to get bulky, especially women I talked to but you know, you're not going to look like Arnold, I would love to look like Arnold It is never gonna happen. It's fat fat. It'll never happen without steroids. But I can still, you know, look great, especially for my age. And you can too. And so bulking is just the idea of gaining weight deliberately to gain muscle. There's four things that drive an effective bulk. And if you miss out on any of these, it's going to be significantly less effective and lead to more fat loss or just just not just fits and starts. And you can see those on the screen but they are your surplus. So that's eating more calories than you burn. Number two is protein getting sufficient protein, which is the building blocks of your muscle tissue in the form of amino acids, that's protein. So we're going for around a gram per pound of body weight is the universal evidence base standard. You can be a little bit less than that in a bit. loading phase to be honest, you can be as low as point seven and be just fine. Some guys, some women love protein love to eat meat. And they're higher than that. There's always a trade off with fats and carbs. So being at that minimum is what's important. Number three is training for progressive overload. This is honestly the one that most people miss. And by Miss, I mean, they might be going to the gym, they might be training, but they're not doing it effectively. They're not actually progressing over time, in some form of intensity volume sets, you know, to actually demonstrate that they're getting stronger and putting those calories to good use building muscle. And then number four is recovery. A lot of people shortchanges, they're like, Well, I'm eating more food. So recovery is less important. But sleep, protecting your joints, lifting in a way that allows you to get to the gym the next time, so you're not excessively sore, or have you know, achy joints, or give yourself tendinitis are all important ways to continue that building phase efficiently. And quickly, just like in fat loss, we want to get it over and done. Well, in a building phase, we want to actually, you know, pack on that muscle, because we know there's fat coming along for the ride. So you kind of want to balance the two as best you can. And then I see some questions coming in the chat. I'll either answer them if that makes sense. Or I'll hold off on them. Let's go with this one. I think I heard a podcast you don't recommend scales of fat percentage sensors. Why? What do you recommend set question for later, okay, I'm just going to answer that. Because they're inaccurate, they're highly inaccurate. So whatever number they tell you, you can't believe they could be off on any given day. However, if you take the trend over time, they tend to be much more valid. So if it says you're 22%, body fat, you might be 17, you might be 27. But if it says 22 Now, and then 21, the next week, and then 20, the next week and 19, the next week, you're probably losing fat. So that's it. Okay, so the the four drivers of the bulk, as I said, with a surplus, the protein, the training, the recovery. And then there's one more, that's kind of a bonus, but a lower priority. And that's the timing of nutrients. I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't train fasted, unless there's a really good reason to, and also that you can be smart about timing your carbs and protein around your workouts to give you more performance, and thus, more out of your training. Okay, so let's keep going here. Are we talking about the C food diet, SCE food diet here, a lot of people when they think of bulking, they think just eat whatever you want, you gain a bunch of weight. As long as I'm gaining weight, I'm gaining muscle. Yes, I know that if you're gaining weight, you probably are gaining some muscle if you're doing the other things. But we also don't want to gain too much fat. And the first book I ever did was back in 2019 and 20 timeframe. And I did just that I drink a bunch of whole milk, I eat a bunch of processed foods, I eat whenever I wanted, I didn't track and again, like 50 pounds and a few months, including a lot of muscle, but also a lot of fat, and then it took time to cut it off. I'm going to lay out the four different scenarios here. And why I think one of them is optimal for most people. Okay, so the first one is a lean bulk when people think lean gain, main gain. What's What's the other words people use? Gain tain right? They think, Okay, I'm going to gain as slowly as possible so that I don't gain any fat. But I still gain muscle. The problem with that approach is now you're just stretching out for many more months, if not years, the time it takes to build the same amount of muscle you could have built in a few months, and then cut off the fat in like a month or two, you know, the timescales don't make a lot of sense, unless you're okay, delaying the muscle gain, because you just don't want to be in a fat loss phase ever. And that's a valid reason. If you never want to diet ever, and you just want to take longer doing this process, you can do that. The second rate of gain, okay, so for those listening, the lean bulk is very barely above maintenance. So like point one 2.2% of your body weight a week, in that time in that rage, a little bit more aggressive than that is what I would call the optimal range. And that is point two to point 3% of your body weight per week. Now, this is been held up time and again by studies including one by Dr. Eric helms at all that came out in 2023. It was reviewed in mass. I had Dr. Bill Campbell on the show, and he talked about it. And I think I did a whole episode on it as well. So I'm pretty confident that this rate again, from my own experience, as well, is solid, and it's not that aggressive, but it's aggressive enough that you're gonna see meaningful weight gain over time. So point two to point 3% body weight per week is that sweet spot where your use an individual can probably maximize muscle and not leave much on the table, but also avoid getting too fat. Okay? However, if you're a beginner, or if you're D trained and you have or you haven't been training effectively for a while, you might want to go a little more aggressive and this is what I call the aggressive rate of gain. And that's point three to half a percent body weight a week. And you'll see this recommended by a lot of coaches. You'll see A male centered coaches like guys, like Danny Morgan, or Cody McBroom, or whoever might talk about these rates of gains like half a percent of your body weight a week, yeah, you're gonna gain a little more fat, but you'll definitely gain all the muscle. However, I think it's too aggressive for late intermediate or late novice, early, intermediate or more advanced athlete. If you're a beginner, however, I would go for that, because your body is going to respond favorably to the muscle building signal, and probably pack on a really good ratio of fat to muscle. All right, and then the most aggressive rate is the dirty or dreamer bulk, right, the one that I went through before and I don't know, maybe raise your hand, if you've tried this before, it's kind of like the easiest one to do. And, and it's fine, but you're just going to gain a ton of fat. And the only reason I would suggest doing this, either, you're a beginner, and you're totally cool with the fat game, maybe you're lean, maybe you're skinny, 22 year old male. And it's like totally worth going after that for your first novice linear building phase. Or if you're trying to push your max lifts. So here's a very interesting thing. I used to have a theory that if I pushed the amount of weight that I gained, that the muscle would scale up, because now I'm able to lift a lot more. We know that like adding tons of weight, mass moves mass, your lifts go up. Why would that translate extra muscle, but what we find is beyond this optimal rate of gain, you're only gaining pure fat. And the strength gains are not relative, their absolute, meaning the you're only gaining, you're only gaining strength because your weight is going up, you're not actually getting stronger relative to your weight. And that makes sense because of leverages cross sectional area, all that that gives you a better ability to push more force, but you're not gaining more muscle doing it. So if you're a power lifter, if you're going after competition, you don't max lifts for that reason, strongman, whatever, yeah, maybe it worked. Maybe it makes sense for you, right? Other than that I would go with aggressive for beginners are optimal for everyone else. Alright, so we have questions in the chat, if anything is not clear as we move forward. So how much should you eat, I'm going to suggest that you have two options. One is make it easy for yourself, use macro factor, use my code Wits, & Weights for the free trial, try it out, you're going to love it, and it's going to calculate everything for you. Because this can get a little bit complicated, it actually gets more complicated than losing fat. Okay, and I'll explain why in a second. So if you want to do it by hand, just for fun, or because you don't want to use an app and you want to make it hard on yourself, which is fine. And then update it every week, based on your metabolism, this is how you would do it. First, you will find your maintenance calories, the only way to do that accurately, is not a wearable, not a calculator. It's to track your food for two or three weeks while you maintain your weight as best you can. Whatever you ate on average, is your is your metabolism, it's very hard to do by hand. So I suggest just using macro factor get moving past it and being efficient, but you do it by hand. That's how you do it. Now once you've got your maintenance calories, let's say it's 2500, you're gonna pick a rate of gain, like we just talked about. So aggressive or optimal, most likely. So we're going to say for this example optimal at point 3%. And then you're just going to calculate your weekly gain as your wait times the rate. So here we go. The, in this example, imagine you're 180 pounds, and you want to gain rate at point 3% pounds a week. 180 times point 3% is point five, four pounds a week, it's about a half a pound a week, right about a little over two pounds a month. So the surplus you you need to eat above your maintenance calories is only five, four pounds a week times the 2500 calories divided by seven days. All right, a lot. I know it's a lot of math here. So so that gives you 193 calories. Now you're probably wondering where does 2500 come from? Okay, you've probably heard of the 3500 Calorie rule when you lose fat. A pound of adipose tissue is about 40 4200 calories and a pound of muscle tissues about 800 Something calories, because it's much more dense. If you subtract the two, you get 3500 calories. Well, when we're losing weight, we just want to lose fat. So we calculate for fat. When you're gaining muscle, you want to gain some muscle and some fat. You don't want to gain fat, but you're going to and assuming a 5050 ratio, right? Because it's another question you might have, I would say most people can assume 5050 is in the ballpark of what they're gonna get. And my last two building phases. That's exactly what happened with me when I wanted that optimal rate. If you do that, and you say, Okay, I'm gonna take half of a pound of adipose tissue and half of a pound of muscle tissue and add them together, you get 2500 calories, not 3500 calories. So a lot of people might be gaining too quickly, thinking they're gaining at a certain rate when they're actually getting more fat because of that, okay, so the surplus you need is probably less than you think. And this is how you would calculate it. If you use macro factor. It does it for for you, and it adapts to you, as it realizes that you are gaining at a slightly different ratio than 5050. So if you gain more quickly or slower than it expected, it knows you're actually gaining a different ratio of muscle to fat. And we'll adjust accordingly each week. Okay, macros are next people wonder how do I distribute my macros. So again, macro factor will do this really well for you, based on the evidence, but let's start with Protein Protein is the muscle macro array, we needed to build new tissue, we're going to aim for point seven, one gram per pound of body weight. And so in the same example, we just use, if you're 180 pounds, you're going to eat 130 to 180. It's a big wide range. And if you're not already eating sufficient protein, I would say, figure that out first, at maintenance, understand what foods you can choose to get there. And then once that's locked down, you know you'll you'll be ready to go into your building phase. For most people, I recommend eating two to five feedings a day for practical purposes. Many of you probably heard the recent study, the big meta analysis that showed that you could even eat 100 grams of protein all at once, and your body is still going to use that effectively over time by just extending the window of muscle protein synthesis. But who wants to get 100 grams of protein in one meal, that's that's the thing. So in reality, you're trying to scarf down 3000 Plus calories a day for most people, women is probably less and you don't want to feel distended when you eat. And you want to be able to eat throughout the day and not feel hungry. So two to five feedings says it makes sense for most people, practically speaking, there's no need to fast, definitely no need to train fasted, and you're not trying to lose weight. So just eat. That's at the end for hard gainers. That's one of the problems is they come to me say, Look, I can't lose weight, how many times you get in a day three times, okay, we hit that's part of the problem, let's eat four or five, six so that you get more of an appetite. All right, fats, fats are pretty simple. I like.
Philip Pape 16:56
Generally for my clients, I just tell them eat what they like, and the fats are going to work themselves out, especially in the gaining phase. But if you need a number 20 to 30% of calories is in the ballpark for most people. If you're more, if you come from a low carb environment where you ate a lot more fattier foods like dairy, meat and such eggs, you can go a little higher, it's just going to eat into the carbs a bit, but you have a lot of calories to work with. So 20 to 30% is reasonable. And then the rest of the calories come from carbs. And why do we need carbs for muscle building? I am going to say that is almost 0% of the time do you want to go low carb while you're building muscle, unless there's a medical reason, like if it's related to diabetes, type one diabetes, particularly if you've got some sort of intolerance to like a million carb based foods, or something like that. Otherwise, I want you to experiment with your body and performance. Bringing those carbs up to a decent level which could be to something three something 400 Something grams of carbs, which might sound crazy to a lot of you I did a whole episode called more muscle, more carbs. And I got some hate on that from the people who are just anti carbs still, and I don't get it. Because we do it. If you do it and you try it, you'll see what it does for your lifts for the amount of reps you can bang out in the gym, for how you sleep, or how you recover. I mean, the list goes on and on. And we know from the evidence you can build five times as much muscle having moderate high carbs versus a low carb or keto approach. I'm not saying you can't build muscle on keto. I'm not saying that's not what you like, don't do it. I'm just saying if you're agnostic to it, go for the carbs. Got a comment in the chat? Let's see. Would it make a difference to eat the carbs within an hour or two after the workout? If during the day carbs have been part of the diet? Intake nighttimes my preferred time for workouts within an hour or two after the workout? If during the day carbs have been part? Would it make a difference? Oh, you're saying after. So bowling No, not as much. That's a good point. If it's at nighttime, and you want to get to sleep and you don't want your sleep interrupted by your digestion, and you're working out that late, I would say experiment number one. But number two, I think it's more important to get the carbs ahead of time, then necessarily afterward and then the next day you're just going to refuel anyway. But like with any of these these very specific answers, I would say experiment with yourself for like two weeks and see how it affects your sleep. See how it affects your recovery and see how it affects your performance the next time in the gym. Okay, so protein carbs around workout sets. So my general recommendation is like within an hour or two before within an hour or two after have some protein and carbs have like 2530 grams of protein or more and have at least a one to one or more of carbs to protein. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights, I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life. their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique, and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. If we are, we'll get you started this week. Now, back to the show.
Philip Pape 20:46
Alright, so as far as what should you eat, I don't want to spend too much time on this. When I work with clients, I don't give them meal plans, like I want, I want people to come up with their own meal plan based on the options available to you based on what you like, and your lifestyle and preferences. But I'll help you figure that out. It's pretty simple. You need a lot of everything. So everything goes. That's the general idea here. You know, 80 90% Whole Foods is always a great approach with the rest of it being indulgences as opposed to 100% Whole Foods, which can be unsustainable, as well as hardly any a Whole Foods, which isn't great for your health. So starting with protein, you've got me you've got dairy, you've got plant based proteins as well. You know, if you're vegetarian, you have the option to go higher fat like ribeyes instead of sirloin, like a whole milk versions of dairy instead of one or 2%. So this is your option, add a little more flavor and pizzazz to your food. Carbs anything goes but like white rice, and potatoes and fruits are great sources of carbs that go down pretty easy, could add more calories. If you need them in the form of olive oil, maybe a little butter. I don't like lots of butter, because the saturated fat but some butter in your stir fry. And in your, you know, rice can be delicious. Smoothies are a great way to just breathe, digest a bunch of food. So it goes down easy if you need the calories. And then indulgences like this is your moment, if you like the bagels and you weren't eating that during fat loss, or if you like ice cream or pizza or whatever, have it, have it occasionally. And give yourself that mental relief to say yeah, this is a flexible approach. I love living this way. But I'm not going to do a dreamer bulk of like, you know, candy and junk food and pizza doughnuts all the time. Alcohol is the other thing I wanted to address. Alcohol is never a positive for your health just period. It just never is. But it's a lifestyle thing. And it's your choice. If you enjoy it for other reasons, it does increase fat storage, it does inhibit muscle protein synthesis, and it does disrupt sleep. And it does increase your visceral fat accumulation as part of the fat that you're gaining. So if you want to avoid all those things, I would limit or replace alcohol with non alcoholic versions. I'm a big fan of na beer these days, there's a lot of great brands and even non alcoholic liquor is available. So give that a shot. Let's see a cut out alcohol and I'm having trouble making up for the missing carbs. Okay, so I want to poke at that Aaron because alcohol does have some carbs I agree but it also has a lot of other empty calories. It's called it's you know, its energy, its alcohol, but it has to get metabolized by the body and it doesn't get used for anything other than fat storage. Missing carbs. I'm feeling my finding myself full but still needing more calories and the foods jessen's To replace the alcohol. I mean, you could have that's where you could have a beverage if you're looking for a beverage you can have a smoothie of some kind with dense foods in there, you know, think anything based on a nut like peanut butter, think adding oil to foods like that, you know, more refined carbs, which I know is like a huge nono in some spaces. Like we're fine. No, everything's got to be the whole or brown varieties. But like white rice, white pasta based foods, if you're gluten tolerant, not everybody is. But if you're gluten tolerant, it's a long list. Fruit. Also, you know, the more denser fruits that are that have a lot of calories. So what else comes to mind if you if anybody else has ideas, throw them in the chat. When you go over your calorie count from indulgences, you just take the loss, I think you're seeing the loss or you adjust down the next day or two. Okay, it's an interesting one. If you're in a gaining phase and you go over calories, just start the next day it's fine. Like you'll just get a little bump that day, if you're in a fat loss phase. Okay, whatever phase you're in, I don't like making up if that's the principle, I don't like making up the calories. So I would just look at what I did. Readjust the next day come up with a better meal plan and learn from these minor mistakes so that you continue having a flexible approach going forward. But don't ever make make up for it. dates, dried fruit. Yeah, great dates, dyed fruit, dried fruit, raisins, yeah, great options, and then supplements. Creatine. I mentioned creatine here just because I think everyone would benefit 20% of people are non responders. The tiniest tiniest piece of fraction of people are allergic. It's very rare thing I like to mention it. So if you have a weird reaction, that's why but most people are responsive. And it's good. It's supposed to be good for brain health as well. They're finding the evidence. Okay. So training, alright, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on training today, because it's more about nutrition. I do have a lot of podcasts I've done specifically about training. But here are my principles. Okay, spend enough time building muscles. So you actually get the benefit. That's the first big one. A lot of people, they do all the training things, right. But then they only spend two months and then they stop. So six months, I like six months, some coaches say four or five, I like six because it's that stretch goal. And lets you think of your schedule ahead of time, and plan it out with the seasons. So for me, I like to like right now I'm in a fat loss phase, ironically, as I give this muscle building talk, but it's going to be done going into spring. And then I'm gonna just bulk all the way till February. So for me, it's like nine months, I love it. And now you're going through the fall of the party season, the fall, you're going through holidays, all of that. So spend at least six months building and plan out your week gain accordingly. Workout 3d five days a week. So if you if you're gonna build muscle, you can't be a one or two day mean, unless you're an advocate of low volume training and have a really good program for that like as a powerlifter something, most people are going to benefit from three to five days a week, or six. But I mean, three to five is usually optimal. As far as what what the program should look like, oh, there's, there's a million, there's a million out there. I mean, you could buy ones from like mine pump from Andy Baker, there's stuff on TrainerRoad, there's a million programs that are work. Principle wise, I like anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half, where you're doing about four to six movements, you're doing about three to five sets, and they're in the four to 15 rep range. And I realized that's like a wide range. Because all of it can be effective. We're trying to build muscle, we're not going for maximal strength. But a strength based program can still build muscle. That makes sense. So I like a little both, which were the which I call power building where I'm doing like a compound lift, then I'm doing a compound lift accessory. So I might do a deadlift that I might do like an RDL. And then I might do two or three more isolation movements. You can do body part splits, bro splits, you can do push pull legs, you can do upper lower can do conjugate, the list goes on and on. You can do Texas method, high medium, you know, heavy light medium, the sky's the limit. Okay? Don't use that as an excuse to prevent you from making progress. Christo says working on maps powerlift right now, and I'm super impressed with the results. Beautiful. It's a great one, my clients, I can give them access to all the mind pump programs I own. They're a big fan of coaches just kind of giving away their stuff. So if you work with me, we'll give you those train zero to two reps from failure. Proximity to failure is one of the most important principles. Because if you're going into the gym, you're banging out 10 reps and you've got five reps in the tank, you are just not giving your muscles the stimulus they need to grow. So 02 reps from failure. Usually that means two reps or so on a big lift closer to zero reps on isolation work, use long enough rest periods. Okay, this is another one. If you're going to the gym and constantly doing the intensity stuff like 30 seconds rest, you may not be getting the most benefit from some of the bigger movements, where if you took the three minutes or even four minutes to rest, now you could hit all the sets and get all the effective reps. Now conversely, intensity techniques rely on the opposite approach, deliberately sorting the rest period, so that you're closer to the effective reps on the next set right away. So I just want to make sure that people are using long enough rest periods when they need them. And and I wanted to mention that, okay, adding weight and reps every session, this is the gold here progressive overload, right, something has to go up something, either you bang out an extra rep, or you increase the weight, or both, or you even at a set, whatever the programming calls for, you can't be static, if you're gaining weight in your body and you're not going up in weight in the gym. Not only does that demonstrate you're not building muscle, it demonstrates you're getting weaker, because your heavier body should be able to push more weight. So it has to go up it just has to and if it's not, something needs to be addressed. Okay. And that's, that's a good opportunity to kind of dive in. Last but not least pick a program you can stick with that you enjoy. That's it, like pick something you love. If you tell me I hate going to the gym. Well, maybe that's not the right program for you. Or you're just not, you know, using one of these principles. Okay, I'm wired up today. I don't know this stuff excites me. You guys like this stuff? Okay. See nutrition wise, what do you think about the approach of three to four weeks on a surplus fall by one week on a deficit and repeating the cycle for the purpose of minimizing fat gain. I don't like it Christos. I don't. If you're in fat loss, and you took a diet break, the only thing that's going to help with is your mental state. We know that there's no physiological benefit. Same thing happens the other way around. If you're gaining muscle, and then you take a break. Yeah, you're not going to gain more fat, you're not going to gain more muscle. Right? It makes sense like you're just slowing it down. I do like the idea that I was going to talk about it later if I get to it, but if not, it's in the guide. I like taking up getting cut in the middle of a long building phase potentially, to lop off some fat and then continue. But you got to be very deliberate about it. I wouldn't do it frequently. loved my energy. Good. Good. Been talking all day. So I'm losing my voice here. All right, your new mantra. All right, I've got a, I've got a quote up on the screen. I'm gonna say it out loud for those listening. And I want you guys to kind of say this to yourself. You're if you're on mute now want to say it out loud with me, please do. I'm excited to gain weight for the first time in my life, because I'm an athlete who wants to be lean and well, muscle, I'm intentionally gaining weight with a plan. And we'll be putting all those calories to good use. I accept the fact that I'll gain some fat. But that's a small short term trade off to gain so much muscle, more than I've ever gained in my life. I will focus on my lifts, how great I feel, and all the other positive things that come with gaining muscle. Okay, I think this is important. I think framing and mental state is important. Because you can't focus on the fact that you're gaining fat. Because you'll get discouraged. You just Well, I did a whole episode called why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked. And I have those insecurities. And I look in the mirror and I'm like, Yeah, you know, but then I realize that it's, that's nothing for what I'm gaining out of this process. And most people just don't have the mental fortitude to even attempt it. And so you guys are all here, you're ready to go. This is step one. Okay, as far as how do you know you're making progress? You've got to track the things that tell you you're making progress. sounds obvious, but a lot of people will come to me like, I'm stuck. I can't gain weight. Same thing with the opposite. I'm stuck. I can't lose weight. Why are you tracking your food? No. Okay, track your food. Right? Or, I mean, there's a million reasons why but it often comes down to you just don't have data. And if you're gonna tell me that it's too tedious, then I'm going to say okay, then it's not as important to you, as it should be. Like, there's no way around it. You can't intuitively, you can intuitively build muscle if you've never done it before, while also optimizing the process. So you can gain muscle, but you might gain a lot of fat. Or you might have a bunch of plateaus on the way if you try to do it intuitively, versus just getting the result you want as quick as possible. So things that you can track, you can track your scale weight, of course, to know that you're gaining, you track your Trend weight, which macro factor does for you. That's a three week moving average. you track your body measurements, not to focus on your waist, because that's going to go up. But your biceps, your thighs, your chest, your neck, those should go up and indicate fat or muscle gain. You can measure your body fat using the Navy formula, if you want, you definitely need to log your your lifts and know that you're progressing. You can log your biofeedback I find it less important during gaining and losing, because all biofeedback tends to be positive. But if you track your biofeedback, and you're like in a hard gaming plateau, you might notice that, hey, I'm hungry. Well, that's a good indication you're not eating enough. And then bloodwork is always nice to have just as a before and after. So you can track other things beyond that. If you have like an aura ring, and Apple Watch all this. It's fun, cardio, health, all that. But these are the main things. If I had to pick two or three, what would they be? Well, I didn't even have food on this list, right? Because we talked about that separately. So it would be food. But then I would track your average weight. And I would track while I let it. I don't like these questions, but you have to only pick a few right?
Philip Pape 33:24
I shouldn't have taken the bait. So I would track weight, and I would track do you have to track your training? Gosh, I feel like you have to. Yeah, wait and training. That's it. Everything else you can kind of tell by how your pants feel how you look. Right? Your weight tells you you're you're putting in the calories in your training log tells you you're getting stronger, good body measurements, I like them weekly, just for to make it a habit I do on Sunday mornings and then put them in a spreadsheet. And by the way, I'm gonna I have a tracker for that it's going to be part of part of something that's coming up that I'm gonna mention in my bonus surprise at the end. So I'm not gonna, like I say now, Okay, keep going. So don't be done. What holds people back? Okay. Not tracking stuff. Like all the stuff we just talked about. Going too quickly or going too slowly, of course, because if you go too slowly, you're just going to stall out. And if you go too quickly, you're going to get too much fat. Not doing it for long enough like we talked about not training hard, not recovering hard gaining and staying there meaning you know, your heart gaining and then you just don't do anything about it. Fear of getting fat we talked about and then letting life deter you like making an excuse. All this happened, oh, I got injured. Oh, I look, I had surgery. I didn't let it deter me. I know people all the time get injured, and they work around it. I know people that they have to go on a three week vacation. They make it work. Like you can make it work that that is life. Like that's the norm the norm is life. So unless you know there's like three months where you're going to be in a cave without access to a gym, and even then you could like rig up some rocks. Well, you need food too. But anyway, don't let life deter you. Okay, So, we're already we only have 20 minutes left, see this, I knew what would happen. The rest of this presentation is a walkthrough of my real life muscle building phase, proceed with caution only if you truly want to unlock the most muscle gains possible and save time and hassle. Should you continue in the same morning as in the guide. So here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna fly through this because I want to leave like 10 minutes at least to answer questions, and then everyone here is going to get the slides. And they're going to get the blueprint itself, that's going to explain everything, when you can always reach out to me if something doesn't make sense. Okay, so my plan was, I wanted to get jacked, I want to go after as much muscle as I can. I barely I just started training hard, like four years ago. And I know a lot about this stuff, but I don't have the results I want yet out of it, I have great results, but I want to keep going. So I'm gonna gain at four I did this is over, I gained at point 3% body weight a week. I did it for I aimed for six to nine months, it ended up being 10 months, including a month of layoff in between because of life. I had surgery and I had a rapid fat loss phase that I did. And my target weight was 185. It started at 165. I later adjusted it to 190 and never lock yourself in to an exact number be adaptable. Was I successful? This information will all be in the the blueprint and even way more detailed than this where I explain everything. What was I successful? Well, I gained 11.3 pounds of lean mass, and I gained 12.9 pounds of fat. If you assume there's like a pound or two of fluid in the lean mass, then the ratio is maybe slightly worse. But it's still almost 5050 I'm happy with that, like for a guy who has been training, you know, for years. So I consider myself intermediate 5050 is great. For a beginner, I would say a little more lean mass than that. And then for an advanced athlete a little bit less. So my effective rate of gain was point four, eight, which was almost exactly what I was going for. And all my all my circumference measurements went up. So my waist went up three inches, you know, chest, an inch, bicep inch and a half thigh, 1.7 neck half inch. And I'm very happy with that. And so body fat wise, it went up about 5% what I know from my own personal experiences, I feel leaner than I ever have at 190. I mean, now I'm like 183 because I am in a fat loss phase and going back the other direction. But you will find that every time you gain every time you cut fat, you're able to go higher and higher and higher weight but still feel leaner, it's a great thing. Okay, my metabolism was all over the place. This is why you should use macro factor to be honest, because there's no other way to do this easily. My metabolism, if you look where it started, when I started gaining, it actually went down, then it kind of stayed around. Then I had rotator cuff surgery. And then it shot way up. As my shoulder healed itself. It shot up by 200 to 300 calories. I couldn't train as you know, I couldn't train at all after the surgery. And then I had to slowly get back into it. I didn't let life deterred me, I kept working on it. I went to maintenance that I went back into again. And my metabolism actually kept dropping this whole time. Not sure why like my activity was fine. But I think it was just because I wasn't training hard during this period. And then we had our shred Tober rapid fat loss phase. For 14 days, my expenditure dropped even more than I started building again. And ever since then climb, climb, climb, climb back to a reasonable level. Now, in previous building phases, I've been up to like 3400 calories. So I ended this one around 3100. And this just tells you that our bodies can, you know, be unpredictable, is split says. But it does give us good information of like what happens in different phases. And when somebody asked me, should I stop tracking because I'm sick? Or because I'm this or that? Assuming the tracking itself isn't a stress a stressor or problem? I say yeah, keep tracking because it gives you information on what your body does during these anomalies. Okay, so that's my metabolism, my trendweight went up from one, about 168 to 190. And you can see that it was pretty smooth, even though the scale weight goes up and down constantly. But the trendweight kept going. And I had surgery, I lost weight, a little bit of weight because my metabolism shot up as you saw on the last slide. So I went into what amounted to a hard gainer phase, unintentionally, I actually ate more and more and more, but I couldn't keep up. And then finally it turned around. And I started to gain again. Then I had the rapid fat loss phase where I lost about four pounds of body fat, which was cool. And that's an example where he like to crystallize his question, you could use a mini cut or micro cut in the middle of a phase to help you extend it. And then I continued from there and it was smooth sailing pretty much for the rest of the build. If you look at my nutrition, I'm pretty consistent. I'm pretty boring. People who are boring tend tend to be successful with this stuff. Because they just eat the same things and are just dialed in. Not everybody's like that and you can still get great success even if you're If you have more variance, you have to be consistent, but you can have more variability. So if you look at my graph here, my protein carbs, or protein, fats, carbs pretty much stayed where they needed to be the whole time. And you can see the nutrition trended with my expenditure. So it went up and down, you know, every week, depending on what I needed to keep the surplus the same. And then all the spikes are just like parties or nights out or I was like GABA, just wanna eat what I want today, which you have a lot more flexibility to do that in a building phase. The blue that doesn't have a color is probably alcohol. So occasionally I drink. I rarely drink these days, maybe once every few weeks, but that's what those are. Okay, measurements, I already mentioned that they went up, I'm not going to dwell on this, this is all my, you know, my waist went up as a gain fat, and then my chest, biceps and thighs all went up as I gain muscle. So I was happy with that. And you should be too if you see things go into that direction. My body fat went up as expected by about four or 5%. This is based on the Navy formula, which uses my neck and waist. So it's a simple ratio. Little bit complicated formula, you can put it in a spreadsheet, or you can Google it, and you can track the trend. I don't care about the number. I care about the trend now am I leanness when I started at Wayne 168 I was about 15 16% body fat, which you might say well that's not even that lean. And I agree and so my fat loss phase now my intent is to get closer to 10% which I've just never been there my entire life. I've always been a bit fluffy or overweight and that's why I love shaving my body this way. Okay, any other questions? Cool. Well thanks everybody for coming again. I will send out everything by email. If you don't get that you can always reach out to me Philip with one L at Wits & Weights comm or Instagram at Wits & Weights, or our Facebook group or everywhere else. So pixel for coming. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 151: The Surprising Link Between Gut Health, Fat Loss, and Body Composition with Josh Dech
How do gut bacteria affect your metabolism, hormonal balance, inflammation, and overall physical performance? What foods and nutrients can nurture a healthy gut microbiome to enhance fat loss and improve body composition? Philip speaks with Josh Dech, an ex-paramedic and Holistic Nutritionist specializing in gut health. They explore the complex, often misunderstood link between gut health, fat loss, and body composition. They bust some common myths and highlight strategies for maintaining gut health and giving it the attention it deserves.
How do gut bacteria affect your metabolism, hormonal balance, inflammation, and overall physical performance? What foods and nutrients can nurture a healthy gut microbiome to enhance fat loss and improve body composition?
In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) speaks with Josh Dech, an ex-paramedic and Holistic Nutritionist specializing in gut health. They explore the complex, often misunderstood link between gut health, fat loss, and body composition. They bust some common myths and highlight strategies for maintaining gut health and giving it the attention it deserves.
Josh, also the host of ReversABLE: The Ultimate Gut Health Podcast, knows all about the connections between your gut and the rest of your health, body, and mind. And it was the successes his clients have had with complex digestive diseases, previously thought to be impossible, that got him connected to some of the world’s most renowned doctors. Josh has been recruited to the Priority Health Academy as a medical lecturer, helping educate doctors on a holistic approach to gut health.
Get an EXCLUSIVE bonus interview with Josh on home gut health tests, pre/probiotics, the connection between gut health and urinary tract infections in women, and more. Click here: https://witsandweights.com/bonus
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:15 Personal connection to gut health
4:41 Gut bacteria and its impact on hormones
7:19 The role of gut bacteria in weight loss
12:06 Gut microbiota imbalances and hormonal disruptions
13:57 Factors altering gut bacteria and strategies for a healthy gut
16:09 Gut health, imbalances, and inflammation
21:36 Strategies for a healthy gut bacteria
25:29 Nutritional principles and gut repair
27:08 Food choices and nature's influence
31:52 The role of fiber, pre/post/probiotics
38:20 Intuitive eating
41:54 Effects of exercise on gut bacteria
43:24 The question Josh wished Philip had asked
45:29 Where to learn more about Josh
46:18 Outro
Episode resources:
ReversABLE: The Ultimate Gut Health Podcast - reversablepod.com
Website: The Gut Health Solution – gutsolution.ca
Facebook: @joshdech.health
IG: @joshdech.health
As the wellness industry continues to expand, new revelations about the human body emerge, shifting paradigms and challenging long-held beliefs. Among these, the role of the gut microbiome in health has sparked a revolution, attracting the attention of holistic nutritionists like Josh Dech. In a recent podcast episode, Josh explores the intricate relationship between the gut microbiome, weight management, and cognitive function, providing a new perspective on well-being.
Our gut microbiome is an invisible universe teeming with life. Comprising trillions of bacteria, this complex ecosystem is integral to our metabolism, immune system, and even our moods. Dech highlights the importance of nurturing this delicate balance through dietary choices and lifestyle habits. But it's not just about what we consume; it's understanding how each individual's unique bacterial blueprint can influence their overall health.
The discussion extends to how imbalances in the gut microbiome can lead to inflammation and a cascade of health issues. Josh sheds light on the 'silent saboteurs' within our gut that may manifest as skin conditions, autoimmune diseases, and mental health challenges. These revelations underscore the potential for a more personalized healthcare approach, one that caters to the individual complexities of the microbiome.
In the realm of weight loss, Josh debunks the calorie deficit myth by examining an experiment with mice that suggests our gut bacteria could significantly impact our ability to shed pounds. He posits that perhaps it's not just about the calories in versus calories out but also about the state of our gut health. This groundbreaking insight could transform the way we approach fat loss and metabolism.
Furthermore, Josh discusses the significance of early life factors, such as childbirth method and breastfeeding, in establishing a robust gut microbiome. These early interactions with bacteria lay the groundwork for future health, influencing our susceptibility to diseases and our ability to maintain a healthy weight.
Building a strong immune system, Josh explains, involves not only nurturing the gut but also avoiding substances that harm it, such as alcohol and environmental toxins. He emphasizes that prevention is key and that by making healthier choices, we can strengthen our body's natural defenses.
The conversation doesn't stop there. Josh delves into the role of prebiotics, probiotics, and postbiotics in digestive health, using analogies to simplify these complex concepts. He stresses that not everyone needs prebiotics and that certain probiotic strains can be strategically employed to address specific health concerns.
Physical activity is another piece of the puzzle, with Josh explaining the bidirectional relationship between exercise and gut health. Physical activity promotes the growth of beneficial bacteria, enhancing immune function and potentially leading to a more favorable body composition.
As the episode concludes, listeners are left with a wealth of knowledge on how to achieve optimal health through understanding and supporting their gut microbiome. Josh’s insights from his podcast 'Reversible' serve as a testament to the power of the gut in shaping our fitness and cognitive clarity.
The conversation with Josh Dech is more than just a discussion; it's a transformative lesson in health and well-being. The gut microbiome's role in our lives is profound, and by embracing these insights, we can embark on a journey to not only better physical health but also mental and emotional well-being.
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Transcript
Josh Dech 00:00
Many of us are overfed but undernourished. And so we're seeing a lot of these things coming through. So you just have to give your body the tools, remove the things causing the problem, and it has the ability to heal itself. Right? Headaches are not a byproduct of aspirin deficiency. Pray there's something else going on. And that's what we have to look at. Here it is, where's your body? What's blocking it from doing this job?
Philip Pape 00:23
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm speaking with Josh Dec. in X paramedic and current holistic nutritionist who specializes in gut health. I wanted to bring him on the show to explore the complex and often misunderstood link between gut health fat loss and body composition. Specifically, how does gut bacteria affect your metabolism, hormonal balance, inflammation, and overall physical performance? What specific foods and nutrients can nurture a healthy gut microbiome to enhance fat loss and improve body composition. And as always, we'll bust some common myths. And we'll highlight practical everyday strategies for maintaining gut health and giving it the attention it deserves in your routine. Josh, who is also host of reversible the ultimate gut health podcast, go subscribe and follow right now. That's reversible. The ultimate gut health podcast knows all about the connections between your gut and the rest of your health, body and mind. And it was the successes his clients have had with complex Digestive Diseases, previously thought to be impossible, that got him connected to some of the world's most renowned doctors. Since then, he's been recruited to the Priority Health Academy as a medical lecturer helping educate doctors on a holistic approach to gut health. And he will definitely educate you and me today, as we dive into the surprising link between gut health fat loss and body composition. Josh, welcome to the show. Philip, it's
Josh Dech 02:12
a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Philip Pape 02:14
As we talked about before we started recording, this is the first deep dive we'll be doing into gut health. So I know the listeners are excited for all about it. And just so that they understand your expertise in this area, just tell us why gut health in particular appealed to you in the context of holistic health.
Josh Dech 02:30
It truly wasn't it's one of those things that was actually love at first sight. You know, I used to be a paramedic and I was in the reactive health care space, I want to do more proactive and really help people change the lives where I do now. And so it was just very, very different. When, in long and short after chain of events was at a trade show, I heard somebody speaking from a holistic nutrition school about the gut and gut biome. And I heard that I said, that isn't I'm going to do for the rest of my life. So I started saving up and I went back to school, and I've been hooked ever since. We talked about the importance. And I'll tell you as kind of a quick overview, we can dive into this one, Phillip more if you'd like. But our guts, I argue our gut and our gut microbiome is it's a bacteria community living inside of our gut, I argue they're more important than our DNA, at the very least as important. Because if you think about it, we have 23,000 genes in the human genome, right? That make up a human being, we have over 3 million genes inside your gut bacteria. So they are vast in number they outnumber your own body cells 10 to one, they do everything for you from detoxification, to hormone balancing to producing vitamins in cellular health and immune response. And they determine how socially we feel like being and what diseases you will not get. They are everything. And it's one of the most fascinating emerging sciences that I've ever seen.
Philip Pape 03:49
Yeah, I was gonna say when he first started saying you fell in love with it, it was like, people don't see it as a sexy topic, so to speak. Right. But when you really get into it, I mean, you're speaking to me from what the science and kind of engineering background of and I've talked to my girls about this before, we have more bacteria in our body like, well, more bacteria than our body than anything else. Just effectively walking. Hosts, right.
Josh Dech 04:12
Yeah, I mean, the question is, are you you? Are you more microbes? Right? You probably were like Pigpen you know, from Charlie Brown, this dust cloud of microbes pulling around us and following us everywhere. It's it's really wild. Yeah,
Philip Pape 04:24
and especially that it affects so many different things. One of the parallels is we talk a lot on this show about building muscle and I've come more and more to believe that muscle is the center of of so many metabolic diseases and health issues we have even more than than weight management right and so I kind of hammer home that message. I like your message here that maybe gut health itself can have a profound you know, cascading effect on everything else. I want to get into that and the audience here listens to the show specifically cares a lot about body composition and fat loss and building muscle and that kind of thing. So we don't necessary have to get into every single facet of of health. But how does it directly impact those things, you know, body composition hormones, maybe, maybe appetite satiety, those kinds of things?
Josh Dech 05:09
Well, probiotics, right be a bacterium living inside of your gut or oral probiotic supplements you take, they work as signaling messengers. So they have all kinds of stuff we're still truly learning about, there are trillions, but 100 trillion bacteria inside of your gut. And we're still just learning about most of them, we really have really firm studies on about 100. These are the ones we can really see inside GI maps, we're exploring different things with different genus and species. But it's all very rudimentary stuff in the grand scheme of it, we're talking as rudimentary as you know, bacteria knowledge really, in contrast would have been in the 1800s, when we just discovered that they exist, right? We haven't even discovered really, the use of the biome started becoming a thing back in the late 80s, early 90s. And understanding the gut and gut bacteria. So it's really quite complex. And unfortunately, the truth is Philip, we don't fully understand how the gut bacteria relates to weight loss, but we do know some. So there are certain strains, for example, that influence inflammation, hormonal balancing, insulin and carbohydrate metabolism. A really big one popular in media right now is akkermansia. And that's when we do see quite a lot in that, again, helps dozens and dozens of benefits for that one specific strain. But I'll give you an interesting anecdote. And effectively, the study concluded that it helps but we don't know why. So researchers actually gave mice a heavy dose of antibiotics to wipe out the gut bacteria, right, they wanted to test the effects of calorie deficits or calorie restricted diets to see what they lose weight. So in the control mice, right, that was a healthy, untouched gut bacteria. They found calorie restriction, of course, like anybody else, reduced body weight, and it had tons of benefits to their gut and gut biomes that increase their growth of beneficial bacteria, of course, growth hormone and muscle retention, all the things you typically see from having a caloric deficit or from fasting. But in the mice who are given antibiotics, they flushed out as much bacteria as they could from their gut, they didn't get the same benefits from calorie restriction, weight loss was either fully restricted or limited. And so they really effectively lead to the conclusion that our gut bacteria have a direct role in weight loss, right? So it begs the question, like if your bacteria is damaged, can you still lose weight? And so to reference another study, they fed obese mice Because mice eat poop, right? That's just the facts. I'm talking about eating feces, I'm not saying you guys should eat most poop. What they did is they gave these mice, they fed the obese mice, diets that were mixed with feces from lean healthy mice, and the obese mice were able to lose weight effectively. And on the flip side, right? lean mice are given bacteria from obese mice, and they are more prone to weight gain. And so it just goes to really show our gut bacteria have a major role in weight loss. And so they don't really understand fully how it works. But we know that it does work. That's something we're still exploring. But the studies really indicate like it has a role in the food reward system and all kinds of stuff for compulsive eating, and no dietary driven behavior. So there's lots of really amazing connections there.
Philip Pape 08:07
So I want to explore that, right? Because I I fully subscribe to the idea that we don't have to know why things work always to understand that they work, especially when they're very complex. Like even when it comes to why how muscles respond to a stimulus and grow it. We're still trying to figure that out. So when you talk about the the mice experiment, is this an isocaloric? Experiment, like both are fed the same calories, there's ad libitum, like they get to eat whatever they want to be referred the
Josh Dech 08:35
same. So they're identical diets. It's okay idea is if we want to compare, of course, right, any comparative analysis has to be as identical as possible on both sides to produce as many complicating factors or restrictions as possible. And so that's what they done, they gave them the same diets the same calorie deficit the same everything and found that the disruptive bacterium did not lose weight, which, besides the obvious, right food and insulin and 60% of you know, America being considered type two diabetes, or prediabetes. We can actively see all the food and all the things that 17,000 plus pesticides how they actually disrupt our gut microbiomes and lead to disease processes. In that way alone, I believe that's a large contributor to the obesity crisis.
Philip Pape 09:16
That makes a lot of sense. And I want to poke at that one more, one more level, because when I hear that the deficit was the same, I would challenge that in the wording because I imagine that there was the reason they didn't lose weight was because they couldn't maintain the same deficit in those mice. Because the other side of the equation probably probably decreased right them a tablet, I gotta, I gotta imagine their their expenditure came down. And that was why they couldn't lose weight, right? Because we know energy balance is what it is.
Josh Dech 09:41
Well, you're right. So there would be some complications there. Right? For example, if the mice were bloated, having pain they might lay around more, they might not be as active or as energetic. So definitely, that's a factor that it comes part and parcel with altering any microbiota, right? I specialize in Crohn's and Colitis, and those people are some of the most fatigued, drained exhausted people. You In medicine next to cancer patients actively going through chemo. So those are the factors we can't control. But if we even look at just testing, you know, a BMR, or an RMR, we can see a lot of congruence in there as well. So you're very, very right to state that Phillip because is it the only factor? No. Is it a major playing factor in the overall outcomes at the end? Regardless of its mechanism and pathology? Yes,
Philip Pape 10:21
yeah, it's important for people to know because then then they understand what the MEK it's kind of like sleep right? When you look at sleep deprivation studies. And we know that it increases hunger, and can lead to more consumption. But in studies where they've controlled the calories, it also leads to differences in weight loss, but that's because the expenditure has changed for the sleep deprived group, right, they're there, their body compensates. So I was just curious about that. So you're saying we don't really know the mechanisms per se. And part of that is because there's a lot to work, a lot of work to be done. And you said, we only understand 100 species out of 100 out of a trillion or 100 trillion. What was that? So
Josh Dech 10:55
we have roughly estimate, say, between one and 2000 different species, seven to 9000 strains, some estimates are now saying two to 4000 species it's ever evolving at this stage, we've really scratched the surface. But even if we take the one or 2000, with seven to 9000 strains, we can multiply it out to say there's 18 million different bacterium multiplied out into about 100 trillion different individual bacteria within the gut. And so we look at that that's sort of when we say we only know 100. I say that because it's what we test for. So we use gi mapping, which is a stool sample, which I'm sure you're familiar with, and maybe many of your listeners are, it's a GI sample or stool sample, we sent to a lab for analysis with a give us a cultural count of all the bacteria individually, either their species, umbrellas, like all lactobacillus or Bifidobacterium. Or there are some other tests that can really break them down by individual genus, so you can see the strains of each individual and what's lacking. And so with those, again, we maybe see upwards of 100 different genus of bacteria on these tests. And that's it, we can actively test or have some sort of ability to intervene on via supplementation, probiotics, or probiotics, those types of things. Okay, so
Philip Pape 12:06
then, is there a set of profiles or an ideal profile? Where we maybe a balance of the certain species that we're going for in most humans? Or is it highly individual? And then how does that balance affect some of this, for example, hormonal disruptions? You know, what I'm asking? Yeah.
Josh Dech 12:23
So we look at reference ranges, the thing is about lab testing is pretty arbitrary, for the most part, right? We know this, because look, for example, at blood labs, right, I'm sure you've seen your fair share of blood labs or steady blood work over time. And those reference ranges are based on a population where 90 plus percent of people are not metabolically healthy, they're actually very sick. And so what we're considering normal is far from optimal. And the challenge further with these lab tests, this is just the truth of them. They're useful tools, but often nondiagnostic is that you only need for adults 120 different reference points to create lab reference ranges for this test, we can say 120 people, maybe they have sick bacteria, maybe they don't. And so you and I fill up as total strangers share approximately 99 to 99.9% of our DNA, right? Never met total strangers, we share only 20 to 30% of the DNA of our microbiome. And so we look at these reference ranges for me, I'm not looking to get people ideally at back in the green if you're on the red, you're not detectable, that's a problem. But you know, dealing gut and gut health and gut disease, I look at these reference ranges is exactly that the references, but oftentimes we use them to try to clinically diagnose right now if you detect pathogens, salmonella, you know, type of pathogenic strains of E. coli, Clostridium difficile, we can see those go okay, yeah, this person is very ill they have an infection of those parasites. But what reference ranges are ideal for that person's physiology? I'd say still, to this point, looking at probably, you know, two dozen GI maps a month. I think it's a crapshoot, no pun intended.
Philip Pape 13:56
So is there a baseline you can establish for an individual then when they're young that would that would tell you that are like right out of the womb, you already have this big divergence?
Josh Dech 14:03
Yeah, so I'm not going to give your listeners anything useful here. So unfortunately, it's really building an awareness around what it means. But here's the deal. When we're born again, we have such a variety of different species and strains. And that depends largely on what's consumed, how active we are your bacteria, right? If you're vaginally born versus C section, dramatically different because you're actually inoculated covered head to toe. Even orally, you'll get some of that in you. If you look at bottle fed versus breastfed, we know the incidence rates for SIDS or sudden infant death syndrome is twice as high from a meta analysis of 19 or 20 Different studies, it's twice as high for babies who are bottle fed than those who are strictly breastfed. And so we know these microbes have a role to play the nutrients that come from it. If you look at, for example, people who grew up on farms versus those who live in apartments in New York City, very different microbes and microbial diversity or variety of bacteria that live inside the gut. So it's all about exposure, getting outside playing with animals, letting them lick your face playing in the dirt touching, you know, grass and food and natural things. And that's how we develop variety. The challenge is, again, the baseline we might get from a baby to answer the original question, can you get a baseline when you're born? Well, that thumbprint so to speak, that blueprint of mycobacteria, that microbiome DNA actually sets in differently for each person, but it really establishes around four years old plus or minus a year. And so we could take it from there. But then the question is bottle fed, breastfed hold, raise playing outside helicopter parents? What kind of food? What kind of diversity is a child picky? All those things matter? And so it's such a, unfortunately, well, I'll say fortunately, unfortunately, fortunately, we know enough about it, we can take action on a lot of these things. And I use gi mapping and almost every Crohn's Colitis patient that I see, the unfortunate part is that it's such a wide array of variables for missteps, or, you know, Miss judgment or misdiagnosis, it really is impossible to say here is our answer. Here's the definitive line, because there's way too much variety, and we're dealing with trillions, we probably won't know for another 100 years.
Philip Pape 16:09
Okay, good. So we've established that. So now we can maybe take the bigger picture approach of, first of all, I do understand the link with some things that you mentioned, like inflammation, and others that might be associated with obesity and peoples who struggle with weight management, because we often attack it from the behavior and choice and lifestyle perspective, which I think is good for everybody to do. But some people don't respond as well. And I want to understand that link, and what what is destroying our gut bacteria or altering it as we live our life? And then of course, we'll get into how do we develop healthy gut bacteria? So I just threw like three different questions that you, but I think, I think you got it all.
Josh Dech 16:51
making notes. So let's deal with inflammation first. So inflammation coming from the gut comes from a lot of places, primarily, we're gonna see it from bacteria. Now, every bacteria lives in the gut, right? Well, not every bacteria lives in the gut, the ones that live in your gut are responsible for your gut, we do have microbiomes all over the body, right? Oral nasal, on your scalp, your hair, skin, eyebrows, groin, right, rectal, vaginal, oral, these are all different microbiomes. And everybody has a unique one. And so inflammation comes when there's disharmony or imbalance. And so the acronym I typically use or the analogy, rather, is that, you know, everything in this world has a role to play in the economy, or in the general ecosystem of a city, a town or neighborhood. And whether we agree with it or not, even the crack dealer at the gas station has a role to play in the local economy, right, or the local judicial system that's got a role somewhere. And so they have a role to play. So even the bad bacteria, the Candida, the Clostridium, those ones still have a role to play when they are in regular normal levels. But if every gas station, every grocery store, every coffee shop, sold nothing but crack. Now we've got a problem, right? Things just fall apart. So in the same way, where you have an overrun of these bad what we call opportunistic or pathogen, bacteria, the dangerous ones, then we have imbalances. Just the same if you have too much good imagine too much gentrification. It's all you know, 25 year old white girls moving into a neighborhood now you have 15, Starbucks and no groceries. So it's another
Philip Pape 18:23
trigger a bunch of people on this this episode represents.
Josh Dech 18:28
So we look at this, we have to understand the imbalances that are the problem. Everything lives. It's not about competition. It's about harmony inside the gut. And so when people are triggered, high cortisol, high stress, high inflammation, creates disharmony. And so when we look at these and say, Okay, there's imbalance in the gut bacteria, these do three main things that we'll start to see. Number one, we can see actual toxins being produced, right, like we go into the term of LPs, it's labeled polysaccharide. Or another word is endo toxins, right. And they'll just meaning within the toxins created by these bacteria. Now they get out, they create inflammation, they lead to more imbalance. Inflammation also creates imbalance because healthy, happy bacteria can't live inside of a house is on fire. But the bad guys love that. They want to move into inflammation, they want to create inflammation, they want sugar, alcohol, breads, those types of things. And so that's one way imbalance creates actual inflammatory markers or byproducts from the bacteria. The second thing we see from the inflammation is leaky gut. Now there are some people who still say I leaky gut BS, but there are some really great informations out there about leaky gut, we know it exists. We know the role of Zonulin, for example, that actually creates further leaks. But when you have inflammation, the cells in your intestines spread apart further than normal. Now, typically, they're held together by something called gap junctions. It's a little binder that holds them together, and healthy things by nutrients pass through that wall, the small intestine. It's only one cell thick before it enters your blood you can get to lymphatic system They're all kinds. But that's micro molecules to at an appropriate size to transfer through the tissue to get into your blood and circulate as they should. But if you're inflamed, and you have large leaks and large gaps, now macro molecules, these endotoxins, these things can pass through getting around the superhighway of your body, which is your blood, your lymphatic can get to your brain, your joints, your skin, and when it gets there, it disrupts those microbiome. So we see acne, psoriasis, arthritis, hair loss, all kinds of other things, anxiety, depression, and things get into the brain. Because these leaks go beyond they create leaky lung. So I've seen asthma from a gut inflammation, we see leaky brain anxiety, depression, schizophrenia, other mental health conditions can all be connected back to the gut, and immune conditions. One of the primary legs, actually autoimmune conditions is leaky gut. So lupus and MS, all that stuff goes back to the gut. So that's our main two ways. endotoxins, leaky gut, the third way that we can see would be actual immunological issues, because you know, 70 to 90% of your immune system is within your gut, right? The actual B cells and T cells, these immune cells are grown and matured in the gut. Or we see an imbalance in things like neurotransmitters, which have a feedback loop to creating stress to creating inflammation, gi changes, which again, further disrupt things. So those are kind of your main umbrellas in which we see inflammation coming from the gut. Okay,
Philip Pape 21:21
yeah, no. So assuming there are too many crack dealers, or rich white girls, you're going to have you're going to have the toxins create inflammatory markers, the the leakage for the macromolecules that can then spread throughout the body and immune issues, immunological issues. So yeah, that's good. So then how do we how do we reverse that? How do we either develop healthy gut bacteria in the first place? If someone is listening to it, and maybe he's younger? I assume there's a time factor to this, but maybe I'm wrong. of age and lifestyle? How do we how do we develop the healthy bacteria?
Josh Dech 21:50
Great question. So we can go all the way back to birth? Right. I mean, we know like we talked about we mentioned being born vaginal and breastfed changes, everything in breastfeeding actually changes the structure, the bone structure, the nose, the mouth and the skull. You'll notice people who knows breathe when who are breastfed tend to have a wider John more square shape and wider, broader cheekbones, and those who are maybe bottle fed and mouth breathe, right, they can actually see that shrinking. And so there's physiological changes there which translate to the rest of your health. But of course, the immediate inoculation of bacterium from breast milk, right? And then, of course, that inoculation from being vaginally born through the birth canal. Those are our top two ways from birth. Now, nobody listening to this podcast is a baby. So I'll just skip ahead to the next bit. It's growing up, right? If you have kids, and they're outside playing, let them get their hands dirty, let them touch stuff, right, let them go and pick their nose, you're gonna introduce bacteria, they're gonna get sick, their immune system is going to build it's going to adapt. That's the adaptive immune system. Again, like we talked about, farmers have the most diverse, robust micro biomes of all that are typically tested or again, like native tribes and native indigenous tribes living in the jungle living off the land, right? They have the most inoculation of bacteria and are the healthiest coincidently don't have a 10th of the health issues we have. And so that's number one is development. It's exposure. It's from birth, it's regulation. Hey,
Philip Pape 23:15
this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this guest interview on Wits & Weights. If you're finding it valuable, you can get a bonus conversation we recorded. If you're on our email list, just go to wits & weights.com/bonus, or click the link in the show notes. Insiders on our email list will get a link to the bonus conversation where my guest will give you the exact steps to take related to one of the topics in today's episode. Again, these conversations are only available if you're on our free email list. To get the bonus exclusive content with today's guest. Just go to wits & weights.com/bonus, or click the link in the show notes. Now back to the show.
Josh Dech 23:57
Now, if we talk about the things, how to basically create a better gut, we want to stop talk about prevention. Number one, we want to prevent damage. That's your alcohols, your sugars. I'm a big advocate against gluten for the most part, especially in autoimmune disease. Those are huge, huge components. We have to look at antibiotics, medications, smoking, fried food, packaged foods, high fructose corn syrup, things that damage the liver, because everything's connected, right? Western medicine has this very reductionist view of the human body where it's just your gut, just your thyroid, just your brain, just your skin. We have skin issues with topical ointment, but your skin is a detox organ, largest organ in the body. It's typically a reflection of internal issues coming out externally. And so we have this reductionist view or it's systematic one thing at a time, but your entire body's connected so we have to look at that general health. So if we're doing things to disrupt that high stress, basic principles like not chewing your food, eating garbage, food, those disrupt the gut, or anything that disrupts the biome pesticides, right we dump a billion pounds of pesticides on our food every year. There's about 17,000 different pesticides approved for use in the USA. And there's 50% more highly toxic pesticides used in the USA than say in the UK, for example, of highly dangerous stuff that we know causes genetic damage. DNA damage, destroys gut bacteria glyphosate being one of the worst. One of the worst offenders that we see right now. Oatmeal for those listening. That's, that's Roundup, right? Yes, Roundup. Absolutely. And all your grains, right. They're sprayed and covered in this stuff. And that's the problem is we're being fed, poisoned effectively. We look at things in our water. We know there are forever chemicals, these PF A's, we know that 60 plus percent of all Americans take regular prescription drugs, maybe it's 50%. But 60 70%, over 5060 years old. Take two or more regular drugs. So imagine how many pharmaceuticals birth control all that goes into our water? So drinking filtered water, these are all prevention steps, right? It's like how do I get my house to stop burning down, we'll stop pouring gasoline on it first, number one. Number two, we want to talk repair and rebuild. That's where we won. After we've stopped. We let things cool off. We improve inflammatory responses, we give your body the tools it needs in the form of resources, which is food, nutrients, nutrition. Many of us are overfed but undernourished. And so we're seeing a lot of these things coming through. So you just have to give your body the tools, remove the things causing the problem, and it has the ability to heal itself. Right? Headaches are not a byproduct of aspirin deficiency. Pray there's something else going on. If that's what we have to look at here is where's your body? What's blocking it from doing this job?
Philip Pape 26:36
So I know, I know what people are thinking right now already. They're like, Oh, here we go. Again, that sounds so overwhelming, right? All the snaps that I have made. And, you know, we talk a lot on this show about flexible dieting and doing what works for you. And not not necessarily changing everything all at once. But taking steps day by day. And I guess I know that I know. That's what the listener is thinking, right? Because you said alcohol, sugar, good medications, birth control, smoking. You know, some things are the big ones like smoking. I mean, I hopefully nobody's doing that. I mean, people are doing that. But hopefully that's like a big one that you would cut out. But you know, when you say sugar, or when you say gluten, right? A lot of people might say, well, you know, I tolerate gluten fine. And I need to eat a lot of carbs because I'm building muscle. And I'm also meant managing my weight. Okay, and I feel okay, where's that line? Where's that balance? Because I know people don't want to just restrict a whole bunch of things. I'm just, I'm just asking what of that were that is for you. Yeah,
Josh Dech 27:27
that's, that's what you're really willing to sacrifice. Like, I am covered in tattoos. I know heavy metals are bad for my body. And I'm probably gonna fight these the rest of my life. And I made a decision. I was like, I want them anyway. So we make bad choices. You know, ultimately, the closer we get to nature, the further we get from disease and wherever that line is, is up to you. For me. I'm a big advocate for animal based diets, but I don't eat carnivore, I eat a lot of meat. I still eat some fruits and make soup for my wife or something, you know, maybe then I'll have I'll have some vegetables. But that for me is where I'm most comfortable. I feel that one's nourished. Some people say, Well, I want to go and drink. Well, the good news is, well, bad news is we know zero milligrams of alcohol are ever good for the human body. But the good news is you have an immense amount of defense mechanisms. In fact, there's something in between in your stomach between the stomach and small intestine called TLR. For its toll like receptor number four, and they stand guard, and they basically say you can come in, you shall not pass by the standard, like Gandalf at the bridge. And so what they want to do is they control and regulate things coming in and out. I'm sure we've all eaten something or those sensitive guts. No, I've eaten I've drank Tim Hortons coffee. I've had something and ran right through the 10 minutes I was on the toilet. That's actually your toll like receptor for opening up deliberately creating leaky gut. Leaky gut is a defense mechanism. It's a good thing. So it opens the floodgates, right? Like putting your thumb over a hose on the driveway to wash things out and push them through so it will not toxify the body. Your body does that with gluten. It recognizes it now. Not everybody has a notable bloated gluten sensitivity. But Dr. Tom O'Brien he says to me says the ones who have gut issues with gluten are the lucky ones because they know pretty quickly it's the gluten but those who have arthritis, skin issues, brain fog, mental clarity issues two, three days later, we're not putting it together. But they say everybody has some kind of issue with gluten, whether or not they tolerate it, whether or not they have celiac, everyone has some kind of issue. And those toll like receptors open that floodgate up in some way. Now, the other hand, those toll like receptors when you drink alcohol, well what are the main uses for alcohol, right? We use them for drinking. So it's either celebration or commiseration. Whatever your preference is. We use it for sanitization. And we sometimes use it as additives or ingredients for tinctures. But that's about it. Otherwise, alcohol has no main purpose really, maybe as a preserve or something else. It didn't but that's it. And so we know more. We know for example, for using a sanitization it destroys bacteria, but most of our backs Serial living our large intestine, the vast majority, like 90 plus percent of our gut bacteria are there, it's three to five pounds of it making up two to 3% of the average human body weight. Now imagine taking alcohol in a colonoscopy and rinsing out the colon one, it would burn like hell, but two, you would destroy everything in there. So these toll like receptors do have a defense mechanism. What they do is they block that alcohol and trickle it through ever so slowly, you can absorb some to the mouth, some through the stomach, which very few things can absorb in the stomach itself. And it trickles it through at a rate that your body can absorb it into the blood to put it through your liver, would rather put it to your liver and your brain that into your gut to destroy gut bacteria. That is how sacred our gut bacteria is to the body. And so there are defense mechanisms, sugar feeds bad bacteria, some people can tolerate it better. If you have Candida, if you have imbalances, those guys love sugar, they will make more toxins. I'm not saying sugar free forever, right? But if you have an infection, maybe look at it for six weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks as a remedy of sorts, right to get you to healthy where you can tolerate the influx of the sugars. Yeah,
Philip Pape 31:05
so a couple of themes come to mind. One is our body's ability to withstand some level of toxicity, but not very much. And it really depends on the toxin you're putting in. So like you said, there's always a trade off. And I definitely I definitely agree on alcohol, like there's no good that comes from it. And even the rationalizations people use for having it, I think there are substitutions for that. But the the other thing was that I'm also a fan of elimination diets. So like what you're suggesting, even though I don't 100% buy into everything about gluten, and we can agree to disagree, that's fine. We're not gonna solve it here. And that's okay. But on the Elimination Diet piece of and I'm sure you walk clients through some version of that, where you basically, you know, they stop exposing your body to a whole bunch of things, and then maybe reintroduce as needed to see what the offender might be. I do want to ask about related to food, fiber, and prebiotics, people ask about that all the time, like, what is the role of fiber or how much we kind of know the general guidelines, but some people swear by more some people say the tube, there's too much fiber you can have, and what exactly the role is of that. And then also prebiotics, and both foods, probiotic and prebiotic foods and supplements. So I don't know how many, again, big topic, but yeah, I'll grant everybody what everybody wants to know about,
Josh Dech 32:19
I can skim those short. So let's talk about pre post and probiotics. So use the analogy of fish in a fish tank, right? Your probiotics are the living organism inside, that's the bacteria, that's the goldfish in the fishbowl, right? The prebiotics are the food, that's what the bacteria or the fish eat post biotics or the fish poop. That's what they produce. Now that poop can be a very, very good in the ecosystem, there are critters that eat that poop as food, there are critters that utilize it, it can be a good thing. But if we have too much poop in the tank, right, it gets really muddy and the fish die. And that's the same thing with the bacteria. If we have too much byproducts that are not being utilized too much bad bacteria producing excess bacteria poop so to speak, then that becomes problematic. And so prebiotics are the food that we want to know, right? So not everybody needs prebiotics. If you have a really nice healthy balance. prebiotics might be helpful for you. If you have imbalance or like a low floor of good bacteria. prebiotics might be very good to bring them up to par. If you have lots of high bacteria and bad bacteria, they're producing too much fish poop, right? And that becomes problematic. On the other hand, they compete for space, right big fish, eat little fish, some other fish, they compete against each other. And so we introduce certain species of probiotics. I use them strategically in my clients. If someone has an overgrowth, for example of C diff, right a lot of people dealing with gut disease have gone through the wringer been in hospital treated with antibiotics. There are actually certain strains and species of lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium. We can use to inhibit or reduce the risk factor of getting a C Diff infection. Somebody's dealing with Candida right certain overgrowth, we can use like saccharomyces boulardii, for example, to help inhibit candida overgrowth, or SIBO and overgrowth of bacteria, Lactobacillus reuteri might be very good for that. Bacterial vaginosis reuteri and RAM Gnosis are great for that, like women who get UTIs my clients literally give them a coconut oil of Tom take a tampon, put coconut oil on it, and take this is one by metagenics called Ultra floor women's. And it's got Lactobacillus reuteri and Rab Gnosis I'll have empty a capsule on the tampon insert, leave it overnight, and nine out of 10 times it's gone in one day, so far 100% of the time has gone on to it's even been used for yeast infections, but because it's a urinary tract infection, and when veterinary tracking the use of infections, that's right. Okay, because those infections are imbalances of bacteria. That's all it is. And bacteria compete for space. And if you use vaginally native bacteria, right, like rhamnosus and reuteri, they can get in there and do their job and the same happens to the gut. And we can use bacteria strategically competing for space. So that's kind of the overview of prebiotics, probiotics and post biotics Now, let's talk about fiber. I'm in the air on this one. So as it got specialist dealing with, again, Crohn's Colitis being one of the most severe gut diseases next to colon cancer people, these people, they're so inflamed, they can't breathe, they can't do things they can't go out. Sometimes if 3040 50 bowel movements a day with blood and mucus, it's quite debilitating. And so a lot of them can't handle the fiber can't break it down. Right? It's very rough. But even myself, I have a very healthy gut. But I don't eat a lot of fiber and my bowels are great. In fact, I actually I tried on a challenge carnivore for like eight weeks, give or take. And I did my bloodwork and my GI maps a month or two before in several months after I went carnivore and then still animal based to this day, my blood work was improved dramatically, my GI map, my stool was improved dramatically, and I get very little fiber. And so I truly am on the fence fiber can be great. I use it in samples, for example, someone comes back and they have very low diversity, I will give them you know, probiotic based foods, fermented food, probiotic supplements, spore probiotics to get in and grow. And I will nurture those with prebiotics and food. But right now, it's something that I'm very interested in learning as the research is still coming out. The conventional wisdom is your bacteria need fiber, because they take that they ferment it, they turn it into butyrate, and valerate and propriate, these short chain fatty acids and byproducts. But on the other hand, you get people who don't eat a lick of fiber, but have a very healthy body and a very healthy gut. And I think a lot of this data, like we talked about is very, very skewed. Because for example, we get people coming in with such diverse micro biomes. And our samples are from a sick population. And if we were to go over to, you know, the jungle somewhere and take these people living off the land and test their micro biomes, they eat very little fiber, maybe some fruits, but most plants are poisonous, or very few plants are going to be healthy. But most animals, we can eat something like 2% of plants are not poisoned, and 98% of animals are safe to eat. And so they eat primarily carnivore based or animal based diets, and they don't have the diseases we do. And so I'm curious to see as the research that may be coming out soon on the microbiomes and microbial diversity of these indigenous tribes. And that I believe should be our reference ranges for North America, even though we have different land, different culture, different species and strains. It's what is the standard of food and nutrition? Do we really need that much fiber, like the argument of fiber is eat it because you can't break it down. So it scrubs you and it feeds your bacteria. But the argument against me is don't eat it because you can't break it down. So which is right, we can't have it both ways. And so my clients do very, very well on animal based diets, very few do well on plant in my experience.
Philip Pape 37:38
Okay, that's another another area of where we probably have a little disagreement only because which I love. Let's Let's go. Yeah, and but people also know me as a nice guy, I'm not a big I don't I don't have big debate show to be honest. And when it comes to fiber, honestly, there's different reasons people eat it, right. Like, in some cases, it's where satiety, and I've definitely heard of people who become more regular and feel better with more fiber. But I've also seen where I've just got too much fiber, or people with UC and IBS and stuff like that, where it's like, gotta be really careful what kind of fiber you get. Other bodybuilders are like, let's just pack on the insoluble fiber when we're in a diet, you know, because it all goes through, you know, so, again, I'm not I don't think we're going to resolve that here. And there's all different camps, who the next thing I really want to talk about is then physical activity, and gut health, you know, walking and things like that, because I know that walking after a meal seems to help with digestion and blood sugar control with a lot of folks. I'm but I'm looking at bidirectionally. How does, What's the link between physical activity and gut health? You can get specific if you want, what types of activity or just more general?
Josh Dech 38:42
sure if I can back that up. One sec. For you, Philip, I agree with you on the disagreeing, I think it's wise to and I vote for intuitive eating. I still to this day, even though I advocate for animal based do make heavy plant based diets for my clients. Because everyone's different. And that's the interesting thing is we just don't know, there's evidence on both sides. There's things that and this was I want to get this for the listener because I don't want to say, you know, eat meat, nothing but meat. I'm an advocate for animal based. But I've had people like I said, thrive with more plants because they need it. I think it's all individual. Once we develop a level of intuitive eating, there's a difference there between cravings, right? Like why do women crave chocolate when they're on their period? Well, they're looking for iron, magnesium, and carbs or sugars to create progesterone. And so that's a large part of its intuition. But if you drive past the McDonald's thing that smells good, that's not intuitive eating. That's a craving, right? It's genetically modified food to trigger your brain. And so when I look at this, for me, it's what works well for you. And even though I'll recommend diets to my clients, ultimately they are the judge and they know it doesn't doesn't agree with them. And so for the listeners, take what I say with a grain of salt, do your own research test on yourself. Take what Philip says try it take what I say try it and come to your own conclusion. And that's very, very important.
Philip Pape 39:57
Oh that's for sure Ray because I used to say that I won't work with vegetarians or vegans in my program. And I started to open that up when I realized that they can be successful. It just requires a lot more work when you're kind of on the fringes of different diets. And I've seen the same on the other direction with with carnivore. Interestingly, when you're trying to get a lot of protein, if you're omnivorous, it's going to be a lot of animal products anyway. Yes. But then the and then the plants come in there to kind of fill it in with the nutrients and the the data and the fiber and stuff. Agreed. Cool. So yeah, physical activity. I'm
Josh Dech 40:28
curious about because we will activity short. So let's talk physical activity, that bi directional relationship. We know physical activity actually influences the growth of beneficial bacteria influences the immune system promoting detoxification, right sweating major detox pathway, lymphatics, blood, liver, guts, skin, they're all major detox pathways. Even respiration is a detox pathway for certain things. And so they're very, very beneficial all that regard. But it's interesting. So back to these mouse studies, they had actually shown the metabolic benefits to blood sugar and insulin and blood pressure, other vital signs of mice who are given a transplant of fecal bacteria, like oral transplant from fit mice. So lazy, not in I won't say lazy, they're not lazy. They're made to be lazy. But inactive mice who have poor metabolic health, we're getting bacteria from mice with good metabolic health. And the poor health mice became healthier simply by gaining those bacteria. Because again, these bacteria produce all kinds of byproducts, they have all kinds of signaling pathways that go back and forth to every cell in the body. Right? Even probiotics, right? It's very hard to culture them, a lot of them are actually dead in capsule, they're not living organisms anymore. But they even have these positive post biotic they made that coming through the system, even though they don't culture, they go through Cree benefits because those byproducts signal back and forth to cytokines and cells and neurotransmitters and all kinds for production. So it's part of the ecosystem anyways, and exercise benefits all regards. Now. I wouldn't say go and eat a meal than to go for a run, you're gonna vomit. I mean, everybody's gone swimming after a large meal like crab, that's fine. But in general, there is a bi directional relationship of good bacteria to producing healthy metabolic benefits allowing better Hormonal Health, metabolic health. Energy, blood pressure, insulin, right output, strength, neurological health, and vice versa, or exercise directly benefits your bacterial profiles.
Philip Pape 42:25
Yeah, no. Love it. I mean, there's no there's no disadvantage to being active. And it's fascinating that you can transfer the profile, the gut profile of active Meissen to inactive mice, they're going to they're going to be looking for that as another. Give it two years. It'll be right because just like we have the weight loss drugs now. Yeah. Fecal
Josh Dech 42:43
transplants if they're already trying to patent certain strains. And like, I see that 50 years from now, I made a prediction already that the very wealthy will be purchasing fecal transplants to have to exercise less and get the benefits like the doing the surgery and pills today,
Philip Pape 42:57
for sure. Yeah, no, it's insane. And I'm a big fan of lifestyle change. And I know that's, that's what you're an advocate for here. And even if we can't understand the why we can understand the what to do about it to some extent, you know, we could at least compare and try and experiment. We're going to be recording a small, a small mini episode after this to answer a few more questions for listeners who are on my email list. So for folks who want even more from Joshua, we're going to answer some things as well as q&a. But before we leave, is there anything you wish I had asked you, Josh? And what is your answer?
Josh Dech 43:27
Wow, that's a great question. We've covered so much. Here's my thing that I think everybody should know. Maybe it's kind of a last word here. Your gut bacteria really like we talked about? Here it is everything the power of one small thing? Are you familiar Phillip with toxoplasmosis?
Philip Pape 43:44
That sounds familiar. Is that the one you get from cat? Pouches? Yeah,
Josh Dech 43:49
that's the one so anybody who's been pregnant by no other doctor says like, don't change the litter box, because they contain a parasite are prone to containing a parasite called Toxoplasma gondii. Now, these toxoplasma are parasites. Their goal is to get into the belly of a cat, right? Because they want to live their best life. They want to do what they do and breed and grow and, you know, hashtag live, laugh, love, and so they get to a cat. How do they do that? Well, they actually will make themselves get into mice because they know mice get eaten by cats. This little individual parasite knows this. But it goes two steps further number one, it actually burns out the dendrites the fear center of the mouse's brain and to make less afraid of cats as a prey animal, it runs the other direction. So now it's not afraid of cats, but it takes it a step further. The second piece is it rewires the mouse's brain in order to be sexually attracted to the smell of cat urine so will then seek out cats not be afraid of cats, increasing the likelihood of ending up in a cat's belly. And we've seen tests from people for example, who have been really heroic running into a burning building to save a stranger jumping into the street to push a baby out of the way of a moving car who's not paying attention. Many of them have been infected with toxoplasma bacterium so much so the US military has been mutterings about using it in soldiers for that suffering a battle. But the idea being this one little parasite, right? Has that much power to rewrite an entire biological organism from a mouse to a human, that's one, you have 100 trillion bacteria inside of your gut. If they are in line, picture what they can do for you, if they're out of balance, imagine what they could do to you an afterthought I'll leave you with.
Philip Pape 45:21
And it's a positive one, in my opinion, right? Because now you have the power of choice and control over that to some extent. 100%. You do? Awesome. That's, that's what I take from it. So Josh, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? So
Josh Dech 45:34
easiest way to get a hold of me is over at gut solution.ca. I do work worldwide for those dealing with Crohn's and Colitis. There's links there, of course, to the podcast, any information you want. I'm biased. It's a great show. If you want to learn more about gut specifically, every single week, we have some sort of world famous expert, Steven Gundry. William Lee, we have a famous plastic surgeon from Beverly Hills actually coming in to talk about wound healing, all kinds of cool connects between your gut and your everyday health. And we also do weekly episodes, just q&a. From our listeners submitted question, we make an episode for you. And that's like you mentioned reversible, the Ultimate Health podcast but it can all be found at gut solution.ca. Cut
Philip Pape 46:12
solution.ca. So that's out of Canada. Yes, sir. Calgary,
Josh Dech 46:15
Alberta.
Philip Pape 46:16
That's right. All right. We'll definitely put that in the show notes. And for those listening, follow the podcast reversible, and get all the great content that Josh just mentioned. Josh, it was a pleasure to have you on the show, man.
Josh Dech 46:27
It's a lot of fun pleasure being here. Thanks so much. Hello.
Philip Pape 46:31
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 150: Why You Can’t Lose Weight While Others See Great Results
Does losing weight and, more importantly, losing fat feel impossible no matter how hard you try? Have you ever lost 10 pounds only to gain back 15? Do you dread stepping on the scale because it never seems to budge? If you can't figure out why the formula works for others but not you, this co-created and co-hosted episode breaks down the real reasons you haven’t been seeing results. Join Philip and Scott Friedman as they lift the curtain on common weight loss mistakes and provide actionable solutions. You’ll walk away ready to troubleshoot plateaus, optimize body composition, and create a plan that finally helps you shed fat for good.
Does losing weight and, more importantly, losing fat feel impossible no matter how hard you try? Have you ever lost 10 pounds only to gain back 15? Do you dread stepping on the scale because it never seems to budge?
If you can't figure out why the formula works for others but not you, this co-created and co-hosted episode breaks down the real reasons you haven’t been seeing results.
Join Philip (@witsandweights) and his special co-host today, Scott Friedman, as they lift the curtain on common weight loss mistakes and provide actionable solutions. You’ll walk away ready to troubleshoot plateaus, optimize body composition, and create a plan that finally helps you shed fat for good.
Scott Friedman (@scottfriedman24) is the host of The Power of Progress podcast. Scott bridges fitness and mindset with his podcast, aiming to end self-sabotage in fitness routines, inspire consistency, and promote a healthier lifestyle. His podcast dismisses fad diets, magic pills, and best routines, focusing instead on personal growth and the journey towards better health.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
3:29 Narrative shift: Fat loss vs. weight loss
6:47 Understanding the road ahead (pitfalls)
9:06 Restrictive diets vs. flexible dieting (the hamster wheel of diet)
14:50 Uninformed optimism or informed pessimism
19:56 Not tracking or inaccurate tracking, and intuitive eating
31:00 Top 5 foods that have hidden calories
41:56 Giving up too quickly and overcoming plateaus
49:53 Too aggressive with the rate of loss
55:20 Understanding what ‘hard’ feels like and getting discouraged
1:01:16 Not prioritizing hunger management: not enough fiber
1:08:51 Not moving enough
1:10:58 Not training with enough load or "intensity"
1:16:28 Cardio for fat loss
1:19:39 Not sleeping enough, too much stress, or too much medium/high-intensity cardio
1:26:25 Outro
Episode resources:
Scott's podcast: The Power of Progress
IG: @scottfriedman24
Youtube: @powerofprogress
Website: scottspeaksfitness.com
Episode summary:
Embarking on the weight loss journey often feels like navigating a labyrinth, where each turn comes with its own set of myths, misconceptions, and unseen challenges. The pursuit of lifelong health and fitness isn't just about shedding pounds but mastering a sustainable lifestyle that harmonizes the body and mind. In the latest podcast episode, we explore the multifaceted world of weight loss, bringing to light the strategies that pave the way to lasting change.
At the core of successful weight management is understanding body composition, which transcends the digits that appear on a scale. This comprehensive episode dissects the significance of muscle mass in maintaining a healthy metabolism and outlines the fallacies that lead to weight loss plateaus. Co-hosts Philip Pape and Scott Friedman provide a roadmap to navigate common pitfalls like inaccurate calorie tracking and the psychological cycle of dieting that hampers progress.
A critical aspect discussed is the psychology of dieting and the power of flexible nutrition. The conversation illuminates how strict, restrictive diets can backfire, causing binges and a yo-yo effect, whereas a flexible approach allows for sustainable, long-term adherence. Emphasizing adaptability and a realistic perspective on health, the hosts guide listeners through the importance of goal-aligned dietary patterns.
Moreover, the episode underscores the value of tracking progress as a tool for managing nutrition without stress. Personal anecdotes illustrate how tracking can cultivate an understanding of portion sizes and caloric intake. Yet, tracking is not proposed as a lifelong dieting tactic but as a temporary educational step to develop mindful eating habits.
The psychological journey of setting and pursuing fitness goals is another cornerstone topic. The discussion touches upon the behavioral changes necessary for sustainable health improvements. Recognizing that a well-informed mindset is vital to prevent the common pitfall of abandoning goals due to uninformed optimism or unrealistic expectations.
As the episode progresses, listeners are equipped with practical tips for managing hunger and maintaining muscle mass during weight loss. The hosts share their personal experiences and the science behind hunger management, highlighting the benefits of protein-rich and fiber-filled diets for satiety.
In the realm of fitness, the podcast delves into the efficiency of training for fat loss. It dispels the myth that more workout volume is better, advocating for high-load training and the importance of consistent lifting. This section serves as a reminder that smart training is just as crucial as nutrition in the weight loss equation.
Lastly, the episode touches on the essential roles of sleep and stress management in weight loss. The hosts offer actionable advice for enhancing sleep quality and managing life's stressors, demonstrating how these lifestyle factors are intertwined with weight management.
By the end of the episode, listeners are armed with a comprehensive understanding of the complexities of weight loss. The hosts emphasize that the journey to health is an ongoing process that requires a balanced approach to diet, exercise, and mental well-being. The goal isn't to chase quick fixes but to build a foundation for a lifetime of fitness and health.
In essence, this podcast episode is more than just a guide to weight loss; it's an invitation to transform your relationship with health and fitness. With every strategy discussed and every myth debunked, the message is clear: mastering the maze of weight loss is within reach, and the path to a healthier you is ready to be crafted.
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
What if losing weight and more importantly, fat? feels impossible no matter how hard you try, have you ever lost 10 pounds only to gain back 15? Do you dread stepping on the scale because it never seems to budge. If you can't figure out why the formula works for others, but not you, this episode breaks down the real reasons you haven't been seeing results. Join me and my special co host, Scott Freedman of the power of progress podcast. As we lift the curtain on common weight loss mistakes and provide actionable solutions. You'll walk away ready to troubleshoot plateaus, optimize body composition, and create a plan that finally helps you shed fat for good. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community and
Scott Friedman 01:07
the power of progress team.
Philip Pape 01:10
Welcome to a very special co hosted episode co created episode of the show. I'm Philip Pape of the Wits & Weights podcast for skeptics of the fitness industry who want to live longer by getting stronger with strength training and sustainable nutrition.
Scott Friedman 01:25
And I'm Scott Friedman, the host of the power of progress podcast where fitness meets mindset. And for those of you who have trouble getting started and finally want to have long term results. Awesome
Philip Pape 01:35
and this episode is being dropped into both feeds. This is a first ever co created co hosted show where we are teaming up to bring you double the value.
Scott Friedman 01:45
And today we're tackling the frustrating questions of why some people struggle to lose weight while others seem to shed pounds effortlessly. You'll learn about the hidden obstacles that sabotage even the most disciplined dieters from inaccurate tracking up to the weekend and indulgences that erase a week's worth of progress. You'll come away with a clear solution to manage hunger, maintain muscle stimulate fat troubleshoot plateaus based on the latest science on nutrition, metabolism and physiology. You'll also
Philip Pape 02:14
learn a framework for translating motivation into lasting results, we're going to peel back the confusion on how fast you should lose weight. Where does training and movement come into it and the power of your mindset so you can finally make progress. Consider today's episode, your blueprint for optimizing body composition, and designing, eating and training plans that flex to suit your needs. So you can ditch the diet hamster wheel once and for all.
Scott Friedman 02:36
Before we jump in. If you love this show, then you'll love both our shows. And the best way you can support the show is to follow subscribe to both of these shows on your favorite podcast app and get notified for future episodes.
Philip Pape 02:50
And of course, if you're listening on Wits, & Weights, I want you to go right now and check out the power of progress with Scott Friedman and give it a follow.
Scott Friedman 02:57
And if you're listening to power progress follow Wits & Weights with Philip Pape on the podcast app of your choice.
Philip Pape 03:04
All right, man. So now that we've gotten to that very awkward, scripted intro,
Scott Friedman 03:08
probably mostly because of me. No,
Philip Pape 03:10
no, no, no, no, you know, we're experimenting, but I'm sure I'm sure you guys listening are loving it. So we're gonna get into today's topic, which is why you can't lose weight, while others see great results. Now, if you're watching the video, and we're doing this fun little thing where the topic is going to come up on screen. But don't worry if you're only listening to audio, because we're going to say the topic before we get into it. And I'm just going to start with the basics. We're talking about why you can't lose weight, right. But the question I think you should ask yourself is do I want to lose weight? Why am I trying to lose weight? Is that really the goal? And I don't know about you, Scott like it. When you think of the avatars, when you think of body composition, what people want? Do you want to be skinny? Or do you want to be lean and muscled? Right? Lean
Scott Friedman 03:53
and muscle? Right? Like I feel like that's everyone's goal. When they say they want to lose weight? I feel like they're said they want to have lean muscle versus just kind of having this skinny bill. That's my opinion, not at least,
Philip Pape 04:03
exactly right. And I think especially for a lot of women who come come into me as a client, I'm sure you see the same thing. It's more of a reframing to say, Okay, why does the number on the scale matter? Maybe it doesn't matter so much as the performance, the fitness how you look how you feel. And so I always like to make that distinction of fat loss versus weight loss, right? Scale, weight doesn't mean a thing, if how you look how you feel, how you perform isn't what you want. And you know, I have personal experience with this right now, because I just started a fat loss phase. And some of my lifting buddies are saying, Why are you losing fat, you look pretty lean, and I'm 190 the heaviest I've ever been, quote unquote, lean. And I see this with women all the time to where it's like, they can carry 20 more pounds and be lean because they've spent time building muscle first. So before we get into like, here's why you're not losing weight, and if you want to be in a fat loss phase, ask yourself if that's the goal. And then if it is because of fat loss Then we have to get into the details. Scott and I are going to talk about calorie deficits tracking all the other things to get there. So that's my take on that.
Scott Friedman 05:07
I agree. I mean, I think that we have this weird thing in the industry that's like, hey, I want to lose weight, I want the we just use weight as like, the Kleenex term like Kleenex actually isn't the brand, like it's not one brand of tissues actually called facial tissue, but everyone calls a Kleenex, because that's the brand when said, we want to lose weight, they just call it weight loss versus fat loss, because it gets fast, not sexy, or whatever it might be. But the reality is, if your goal is to literally just lose pounds, and that's it, sure, weight loss is great. But if your goal is to look better, than we might want to be talking about fat loss, and if that's the case of scale, doesn't matter. And it really, you said it perfectly, it's just a narrative shift, we have to kind of change that story. Every person I've ever talked to comes to me and says, I want to lose weight. And I'm like, Are you sure? Because if I put him in, so I, my brother and I were about the same height, same weight, so we both weigh about 175 Give or take, I work out, he does not shirts off, we look very, very, very different. But weights all that matters, right? So no, clearly there's something else there. So I think diving into like the fat loss, and people understanding how to look better, from a fat perspective, I think is really what's gonna help people move forward. For
Philip Pape 06:19
sure, man. And one last comment on this. And then we get to the next topic is really weight is a number just like your circumference measurements, just like you know how many calories you eat, just like how much sleep you're getting. And it's important in terms of, okay, if I have a goal, and I know for sure, I'm going to keep training, and then I'm going to go into calorie deficit and lose 20 pounds of fat, I need to know that I'm losing 20 pounds of fat. So of course, weight becomes a relevant statistic over time with the trend. So we can get to some of that. But I want to shift it over to the next topic, Scott. So I'm gonna bring that up on the screen for you. Yeah,
Scott Friedman 06:55
understand the road ahead. I mean, it's building a perspective of what you need to do in order to succeed. So most people jump into a goal without understanding what the road ahead actually looks like. So my example I give for this is, you're not going to go hiking in high heels, like if you know you're going hiking, you're not going to pack high heels to go hiking, very simple, but most people decide that they are going to do that and they are going to wear heels. That's very common when you're trying to lose weight or lose fat, because you think it's going to be the straight path, the straight line for it is going to be super simple. This is it. But the reality is there's gonna be bumps and Ben cracks along the way that you did not account for. And that's what causes a lot of people to quit.
Philip Pape 07:40
Yeah, so what you're saying is, it's not a straight line, it's like any plan, you come up with a plan, it's going to change on day two, I don't remember the famous quote was probably Winston Churchill that had to do with that, like, you have a plan. And you'll get to your end goal at some point, even though it changes on day two. Whereas if you don't have a plan, you just never get there, right? You just meander forever lost in the woods, maybe wearing heels as well. So
Scott Friedman 08:02
overnight wearing heels? I think it's I mean, if Winston Churchill said that's pretty far everyone has a plan to get punched in the mouth, right? What is the plan to go? Do? I'm gonna lose, I'm gonna lose 40 pounds of fat, I'm gonna do all this and then not realize that, Oh, wow. For week four to eight, I didn't lose. What do you use weight here as a catch all term for the moment. But oh, I didn't lose any weight for four to eight weeks. It's like, yeah, like, that's probably going to happen along the way. And if you're able to account for that, when you go through it, you're going to be less discouraged moving forward, and therefore more likely to stick to what you're doing. And so that's kind of the, the emphasis of understand the road ahead. Because if you just think, perfect, awesome, things will always go my way, you're going to be disappointed. And that disappointment leads to failing, if you can understand, okay, throughout the 40 weeks or 20 weeks, what I whatever I'm doing, there's gonna be issues that are going to arise, I'm going to have the cake at the wedding, I'm going to do this, I'm gonna go on vacation, if you can plan for those things, or at least acknowledge they're going to happen, you are significantly more likely to stick with what you're trying to do long term. And I think people just kind of missed that. They just think it should be perfect all the time.
Philip Pape 09:06
And I think that's a perfect segue into the next diet. We're talking about restrictive versus a flexible approach, which is exactly what you're saying. It's like having that adaptability for life. Because life is going to happen as opposed to seeing life as this anomaly that came out of nowhere that you couldn't plan for it's going to happen, right? We we look at the history, we look at the science of dieting, it's no surprise that when you tell yourself, I'm not going to eat these 80% of foods that are available to me that you're going to eventually binge and you're going to fall off the wagon, so to speak, and get off track, whatever you want to call it because you've given yourself such a restrictive, prescriptive approach to your diet as in I'm only going to eat meat carnivore folks, or I'm not going to eat carbs, keto folks, right. And I always say like, Okay, if you love eating that way, I'm gonna use that word. Like if you just just crave and love and you get up every day, you're like, Yes, I'm on keto. Like this is amazing. I get to keep for the rest of my life. Perfect Man for you. How many people do that? How many people are like, hey, I really want to have a car I'm here and, or even on cardboard or like an orange would be nice. I don't know. So we you know, without getting into all the science like that goes back for decades. restrictive diets cause you to binge they caused you to gain weight again, it's hard to maintain the weight loss. And it's because just what Scott was saying, You're not giving yourself room, Grace, flexibility, you know, whatever adaptability. But if you say, You know what, I'm going to stick within some targets that align with my goals, but give myself 100% freedom to pick what I want to eat to meet those goals. Compare those two approaches, and imagine which one's more successful.
Scott Friedman 10:42
I might take a slightly different approach on this I kind of I like it because I am very much anti like dieting 100%, but maybe not for the same reasons I do think you have. Let's just say there's 30 Major diets out there, you know, carnivore keto, which I've done, I've done a lot of these whole 30 I guess, vegans, Titan thing, one, but that's more of a lifestyle thing. Whatever it is, they
Philip Pape 11:04
want you to think it's a lifestyle, right?
Scott Friedman 11:08
They all say that in their lifestyle. Half the people that do it are like, this is the greatest thing ever. And they can show you research, they can show you status studies that is like this is so beneficial for you. The other half are like this was terrible. I didn't see any result. And the research they show you is horrible, terrible. You shouldn't do it for your body for you can talk about keto is a great example how you know, there's evidence to support keto evidence against keto, what's true, it's probably somewhere in the middle. So my take on that is, you know, first, when you're doing a diet, if you're not trying to learn how to do it on your own, and you're consistently being restricted all the time, and don't really learn why you're doing or what you're doing that I think it's a giant waste of time, because it's not sustainable, long term. If you're like, look, this is what I love, like you were saying before, fine, go for I have nothing against people who do keto long term, I have nothing against people who don't who are vegans long term I know nothing against because if it works for you, and you can do it and you enjoy it, and this is the goal you want to go for, because they probably do work for the right person. But the reality is most of these diets are meant to be kind of a medium to get you to the result you want. And then you stop. And that's the issue. Is that the stopping point? So if you get to the issue of keto, right, the biggest issue with keto in my opinion, is people will do it, they lose either keto, I lost 25 pounds in two months. And I didn't gain it back because I knew exactly how to do the reading the refeeding period, most people finish their goal gave me I did it and then they go, Wow, that cake looks delicious, those dogs are great, they get back into old habits. And without that strict that strict protocol, they gain all the weight back. Because they didn't learn it, they don't know that they just did a goal. They didn't learn anything. And now they're not eating as restrictive and therefore, they're not seeing the results anymore. So that's where I take a little bit of a different approach of like, it's more of like, if you can go into it. Number one, knowing this is what you're going to be doing. Or you can learn how to almost undo it. Like when you're not get to keep the results when you're done, then I'm kind of look go for it. But overall for the average person for me specifically, like I don't flexible dieting, I like to eat what I want to eat, when I want to eat it for the most part, obviously, the hit your, your macros, and we'll probably get into that a little bit later. But that's my kind of my take away of the eating and how do you have to enjoy it? I'm not sure I enjoy what I'm eating now. But I also have a lot of restrictions because I have a really bad stomach. So you know, it's almost like I kind of eat just I eat to survive Most of the time. So I'm not really sure I'm the best example of it. But that's kind of my slightly different take on restrictive dieting.
Philip Pape 13:41
Yeah, no, I hear you. Sometimes when I get a conversation with a client, and I'm like, I make a suggestion like remember, I don't eat I can't eat this, this this and like, Ah, that's right. That's right. That's right. I should have looked at my notes on that. You can't eat
13:52
turkey every single day for a year.
Philip Pape 13:57
Yeah, no, I mean, we're pretty aligned, you know. And our however we communicate this may resonate with different people. But I was talking to Bill Campbell religion, as I mentioned, and he talks about the keto diet and muscle building. And again, it comes down to your specific goal, if you want to use it short term versus long term, all these things. And for some people who are eating just the standard American diet with like 70%, ultra processed foods, if you went to keto or carnivore or Mediterranean, whatever, it'd be a massive improvement. And it would jumpstart you toward you know, better health. But then the problem is people get in their mindset, oh, everything associated with keto needs to be retained, because it's better as opposed to, oh, I ended up you know, getting rid of like some toxic things I was intolerant to and I got rid of the processed foods, and I learned how to be more filled, you know, satiety, and they don't introduce things back ever right and that's what leads to the restriction in my opinion, but up All right, anyway, we're gonna talk a lot more about dieting and stuff as we go through. I want to get into some mindset stuff, Scott, because that is where your expertise lies. So take it away with us next time. Okay, so
Scott Friedman 15:00
this is kind of the behavior change aspect of things. This is kind of where my bread and butter is I love nutrition certified fitness or all that stuff, same as you, but you definitely had the mechanics and I kind of go through the mindset aspect a little bit more and uninformed optimism and informed pessimism, what does that mean? So I'm gonna use New Years as kind of the the catch all here. That's what the easiest way to understand that what happens on New Year's every single year right and I'm not making fun this is just this is what happens is you say, Okay, I'm gonna jump into this, I'm going to do this amazing, I'm gonna go to the gym, I'm gonna lose all this weight, it's gonna be awesome. Or my friend told me about this new awesome diet, or all you have to do is order the smoothies and you're going to lose 40 pounds, you jump into something, you hear something shiny, you're like, oh my gosh, that's so let me do that. I'm gonna jump over here. Then you start to do it. And you're like, ah, yeah, this sucks. Like, I no longer wait, like, this is harder than I thought it was. The results are harder, I had to do way more, I thought it was just buy this drink this I'm gonna get I thought it was all this easy stuff. And now you're realizing that wow, this really is not as easy as I thought. And you get to the informed pessimism. So the uninformed optimism aspect of kind of goal setting, jumping into things is I'm happy, I'm jubilant, I can't wait to do it. I'm so excited, motivated to workout every day motivated for this diet, then you realize, Wow, this isn't going to be as easy as I thought it was gonna be. And then you get to the informed pessimism where now you're sad. Now you're discouraged. Now you're annoyed, frustrated, whatever the word is you want to use, because it's not we thought it was, it's harder than you thought it was. And now it's like, you kind of hit a crossroads, or you kind of hit this thing called the valley of despair, where you have a couple choices. One, you can either jump to the next shiny object that you see, another friend is doing a different diet or a different workout program, you jump to that with uninformed optimism, and you go through the same cycle. Or you can stick with what you're doing realize you may have made the mistake, but if you keep going, you can progress through. And people kind of hit that that that point. And so it's kind of it looks like I think it was a reverse parabola, I think is the word I want to use. For all your math, people out there is the very bottom, they have a choice to either go back up, or circle back around. And a lot of people just circle back around. Yo Yo dieting is the exact the exact example of this, where it's just up, down, up, down, up, down, or a different diet every six months, because it's not working. It was easier, harder, easier, harder. So that's uninformed optimism, informed pessimism. And the biggest thing is just don't jump into things without actually maybe taking five minutes to look it up. Look at reviews, look at what you actually have to do talk to someone talk to someone who's done it before, how hard is this? Like, is this actually super easy. And I think when you put yourself in a situation, that can give you negative a negative feedback loop, you're just significantly less likely to continue moving forward. And that's why a lot of people quit. People, a lot of people quit, no goals aren't specific enough on New Year's or, you know, I didn't realize what I was doing, or I jumped in too fast. All of this stuff can be avoided, if you just take a second to think about or ask an expert, or whatever it is, what does this actually look like? What do I actually have to do for this, get some information, and then you can make your informed decision so that you can actually start seeing results and actually understand that this is what heart is going to feel like this is what's going to feel like as I do this, versus wow, I didn't realize that was gonna suck, I should start over or just give up forever, you burn out and you stop. And a year later, you're talking to Philip, right? Hey, I need to coach because I gave up a year ago because, you know, I didn't realize what I was doing, I would get really depressed about it, which happens all the time. So just taking a little bit of insight prior to is super important that
Philip Pape 18:33
impulsiveness, which I can be accused of, of wanting to jump into things, you've learned to temper it a little bit, like you said, with sleeping on it, you know, just sleeping on it, and then getting the info. It's what marketers used to latch on to people and take advantage of their, their high when they get exposed to like the shiny object, right? It's like, I gotta lose weight, and I'm ready to go. And by the way, you're gonna get a 20% discount if you sign up right now and right, all of that, that's kind of take advantage of that psychology. So the converse, like you said, is like, you know, take it easy, get get informed, listen to our podcast, which you know, will educate you. But also, when you're trying to do things like don't do so many things. Don't take such a huge leap. You know, maybe dip your toe in and do those baby steps, do the you know, push your comfort zone, don't don't go way outside your comfort zone. All of this is great, like mindset from day one before even get to any of this and decide that I'm just going to do some crazy diet or program for for weight loss. Anything more on that? No,
Scott Friedman 19:28
I think that's it just I think the takeaway is, look, when you're looking to do anything, it doesn't matter what it is just don't just jump into it, take a second read if the offer is too good to be true, or they're like, Oh, this is the last hour to screw them. Like just take a second, you know, and think it through. And then when you make your decision, whatever it is, stick with it, hammer it out. Don't give up after one week, give it some time to see if it actually work and then push forward with it. So those would be my takeaways as they get through and push for once you do it.
Philip Pape 19:55
Cool, man. Yeah. So let's keep going with this train here and get into one My favorite topics which is tracking and I want to say like 80% of the people that reach out to me, you know, Facebook or wherever else and and have an issue a challenge like, Hey, I'm having trouble losing weight, or now I'm a woman in my 40s menopause, perimenopause hormones are catching up to me. I can't lose weight. One of my first questions always is, do you know how much you eat? Like, are you tracking? Just a very simple thing like that. And this can apply to lots of things in life, but we're talking food here. You can't possibly know that you're actually in a deficit if you don't know how much you're eating, and how much you need to eat. Right? Simple as that. So what are the biggest roadblocks for people when it comes to weight loss? Fat Loss is just they don't know how many calories they burn. They don't know how much they eat. They don't know how much fiber do I need macros, like all that stuff. On top of that, it's a mystery, what their life looks like in a given week, meaning they graze from their kids plates, they eat the candy from the bowl in the office, they drink, you know, three glasses of beer, not just one or two, right? Or it's a big heavy Imperial Stout that I love. And it's like 400 calories, not 200 calories. But it's only one glass, one glass. It's a glass of beer, right? They're all the same glass, glass of beer. Right? So you have all these hidden calories, and then the weekends. So the classic like Monday through Friday, I'm quote unquote, good. And then I eat a little bit more on the weekend. Now even a lot more on the weekend, most likely, I could go to the Mexican restaurant in town with my wife and like even having eaten a big lunch and not be too hungry. And I'll easily come out 1500 calories from my dinner from the chips and all that you know the cheese, right? So people talk about intuitive eating. And I like to always push back and say, Look until you've developed the skill of knowing you how much you eat, what you like to eat your habits, your meal, timing, all of that. Even, you know, irrespective of dieting and gaining just awareness, just knowledge until you have that. You can't be intuitive in anything. Like what is intuitive. I'm just going to eat till I'm full. I mean, you might disagree. I don't know we can get into like Intuitive Eating versus the skill of intuitive eating that you develop after tracking. But yeah, one of the biggest problems is that you're just not tracking for some time to gain that awareness, even if you're not going to track long term. Yeah,
Scott Friedman 22:17
I mean, I am when I first started, and I think people would be surprised to hear this is I tracked everything. I mean, I'm talking I would literally buy a bag of baby carrots and I would literally count 12 Carrots owl for 35 calories and write it down. Okay, that's it I was made fun of all the time. It's just like crazy. Religiously tracking it like just craziness. And but a built the system. Like I was able to kind of No, I don't do that. But I was able to build the system. Okay, I kind of now I can eyeball this. I can look at this and say okay, that's a portion of here. I have now have that skill set to do it. I think tracking is monumentally important. I'll give two major examples. One I had a client, I should have a client. Many clients were like, Hey, I eat great. Look at what they're eating. Oh, you are eating great. That's perfect. I'm not losing weight or fat. I mean, okay, well, are you sure you're tracking everything? Yes, I am. Okay. Well, first thing is you're not they've the Phantom calories hearts about the one Oreo they pick up or the what? Oh, yeah, I forgot track that read that people always forget to track kind of the nuances. They don't realize serving sizes are actually significantly smaller than what we think they would be, I believe, as I said, or is one Oreos like 70 calories. I mean, just just throwing it out there for everyone. Like that's, that's not a small number like because you're not eating one or you're eating for so like that's a little bit different. I also think that when it comes to people don't realize you can over eat unhealthy food too. I mean, healthy foods great. It's great for nutrients. It's great. Such a feel your body, but you can overeat it. My dad was trying to lose weight a couple years ago, and he was eating awesome. I was like you're eating healthy. How are you losing weight? This is perfect. And then he tells me he's having a bag of almonds every day. And I'm gonna go, What do you mean the 100 Calorie pack of almonds? No, I don't Well, I don't know, a bag of almonds shows you the bag. The whole bag is like 800 calories worth of almonds. They go let's go dude, like your 500 above your main like you can't. And so I think when you don't track it, it's very difficult to understand what's happening. I'm not saying you have to be a religious track because a lot of people don't want to track because it's it can be hard. It can be tedious. It's restrictive. But I find that when you start tracking number one, you're instantly cutting off about 300 calories a day because you don't put number one you don't want to put it on the sheet to show your Coach Self accountability. Right like you had the receipt and you don't want to show me when you had that. It's number one you get or you realize, oh I didn't realize I was doing that you get start getting rid of your calories. Number two, you're able to kind of see how much of something is and then start to kind of build that quote unquote, intuition over time as you kind of get better at it. So I am a huge believer in tracking I think there's a time in place for I think that at least track your main meal right at least get the main culprits or what you can track out Obviously, not every restaurant has, you know, the tracking mechanism available, right. But like, maybe there are a lot of mainstream restaurants that do so do it where you can, and the more you can do it, you are decreasing the percentage chance that you get it wrong, that's all I'm trying to do is just decrease the chance that we get it wrong, let's increase your probability of success doesn't be perfect. You know, 80% is better than 50%. Right. And that's what I'm trying to do. So I think tracking is important. And what I tell people to do is if you just if you hate tracking fine track for three days, let's get a baseline of what you're trying to do. The intuitive eating part, my first gut instinct to Intuitive Eating is like, go pound sand. Like I think it's the dumbest thing because, like, how can you have intuition? If you've never done it before? Or you have like, your intuition got you elicit I'm not trying, I'm not trying to mean either. Like, the reality is, if you're trying to lose 50 pounds, you're probably obese. And your intuition got you there.
Philip Pape 25:54
Got you there. Yeah,
Scott Friedman 25:55
got you there. So using that same method, how is it gonna get you I know, maybe you're paying attention more, but I think you need to something's disconnected, I think you need to learn the skills. And then over time, I think you'll you can gain the skill of intuition or the intuitions as skill, not just a trait, I think you have to learn it. And then once you get good enough, then you can start being well, this was about this or this is, by the way, it's still I've been doing it for over a decade. And it's still difficult, I still screw up olive oil, or whatever it is all the time. And I'm over eating or handfuls of stuff. So I think that tracking is monumentally important, because it's just it's very difficult to do on its own. All
Philip Pape 26:31
well said, I want to expand on a couple of those. So just with the intuition and the intuitive eating, I find that when you're at maintenance, when you're just trying to maintain your weight, if you've gone through one or two phases, where you have tracked a bit, and you get a sense for those hunger signals, and you've regulated the foods that you're eating, right, where you're now eating the protein you need and everything. And you just keep eating that way. And listen to your body, it's it's pretty good for keeping you, you know, at roughly the same weight, give or take, say two, three to five pounds, once you have that skill, but as soon as you try to go to fat loss, for example, which I'm doing right now, myself, I've done this like five times. And I always forget the hunger and some of the other aspects that you know, not at you, while you're in that phase, where if I wasn't tracking, I would have to like, they would require some level of discipline and willpower above and beyond. Because I'm not tracking to say like, I need to, I need to sit with that hunger, knowing that that hunger is telling me I'm in that deficit. And it's kind of a weird thing, you know, but if I had the numbers, I'm like, Okay, I got 1000 calories left, I'm just gonna plant it in, I'm going to sit with my hunger and work around it next day. Right.
Scott Friedman 27:32
And it actually like people take the hunger as a bad thing. That's a great point. And think about that. Like, if you have that hunger pain, we'll call it from one day of not eating all the way as we do in the US. But if you have 500 calories left, you know that you can eat more. And if you're not tracking almost mentally, like oh my god, what do I do? Do I eat? Why not even try to lose weight? Am I over? Just take half of that discipline out of the equation? And the discipline goes, Look, if I'm out of calories, I know a lot of calories today. And I got it now my body's just fighting me. This is normal. And it takes a little bit of that stress off. That's great. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah.
Philip Pape 28:05
And even and even when you are tracking, it's it also gives you a calibration against the hunger so that if you're trying to improve the signal, the hunger signals, like if you're trying to, you can never out game hunger, but there's like tricks, you know, that we all try to do. If you can do that and say, Okay, now I know I'm in a deficit, and I've mitigated hunger as much as possible, it's a great place to be, you know, it gives you that confidence. As far as like the minutiae of the friction of tracking, which comes up all the time, like, oh, that sounds tedious, like I like to come in from from it from two perspectives. One on one side, at least when I have a new client, it's let's not worry about all the different specific food selections right now, let's just get more protein and fiber in there in general, right in every meal, because that's going to that additive approach is going to start displacing other things and crowding out the other foods, and you're gonna start feeling better and fuller anyway, at the same time, while you're tracking, I don't want you to get neurotic about it. Like, I want you to just, if you feel tedious about it, reach out to me, because I will probably give you a hack that's going to make it less tedious such as when someone says like, well, there's 20 ingredients on my salad. Like, how about just track the one ingredient that gives you the calories in that salad or you know, like, type in house salad and look it up and just ballpark it. Trust me if you're within 30% That's actually good enough. Even the evidence has supported this like plus or minus 30% of what you think it is. versus not tracking at all is actually good enough to get you to your goals just so people don't stress out. There are ways around that friction.
Scott Friedman 29:31
What's the most important track of all so calories? Protein, carbs, fat Well, or sugar fiber? What will be like your like numbers, they're like they're fighting you. What's the one thing you will at least track this?
Philip Pape 29:42
Oh, yeah, that's it's between protein and calories. It depends because like, you can kind of know you're getting enough protein without tracking it. But it's a lot harder to know you're getting enough calories without tracking it. You know what I mean?
Scott Friedman 29:54
Yeah, I switch it based on the client that has based on need, like what is their specific goal and feel like If it's weight loss, I might do protein, because they're not losing weight that we know or just eating too many calories versus protein. I want to reserve as much muscle as I possibly can. So sometimes I'll switch it off. But yeah, it's tough one, right? Check the one thing, it can be tough. And
Philip Pape 30:14
for people listening to your podcast and hearing me, all my clients track and and we track a lot. So like, if that doesn't appeal to you, you're not going to work with me. It's just it's a binary thing. So like, I don't do portions I don't do, you know, intuitive, I don't do just this or just that. We track everything. But trust me, I use tools that are very, very frictionless to make it as easy as possible. And to me, like if you get those quick wins, and you're using that low friction process that works together. But if you're using tools that are a little bit more frustrating, or you're not, you're not taking a 8020 approach, that's where you can like shoot yourself in the foot no matter what you're doing. What's like,
Scott Friedman 30:49
what's like a tool, like what you mean by a tool, I got a hotline like calculator or like, What do you
Philip Pape 30:53
mean? No, I mean, so my clients whose macro factor by stronger by science, it's a food logging app.
Scott Friedman 30:57
Got it a specific app. Yeah, gotcha. Makes sense. I wanted to give a little bit of a takeaway, or we can kind of split up a little bit, but like the top five things that do like hidden calories, what were your take, what are your top five foods or whatever it is to have like hidden issues that people don't realize is like, Oh my God, this has so many calories in it. And if you either eliminate or do half of what you're doing, you actually just couldn't see
Philip Pape 31:18
instant results. Yeah, you want me to go through all five that I've got? Yeah, go for it. Okay, so, yeah, what I came up with is first high calorie drinks. Super easy to change, right? You can go from coke to Diet Coke, Coke from alcohol. The lighter alcohol or non alcoholic beer, which I'm huge into right now is non alcoholic beer. It's fun, it's tasty and a lot less calories. And then the fancy coffees, everyone gets a Starbucks Come on, like, oh, it's Olivia, dessert. Me? No.
Scott Friedman 31:46
You don't need all that you're drinking 1000 calories for coffee. It's not uncommon. Just pump that sugar and call it what it is. Sometimes it's a milk smoothie or whatever it it's just like it's not even real coffee.
Philip Pape 31:56
It is and I think some people have like there's a little bit of a blind spot that there are options. And so sometimes it is just information like hey, you love hot chocolate. Did you know hot chocolate is like cocoa and some sort of milk base that you can take like almond milk, cocoa and some stevia and have like almost no calorie hot chocolate. It tastes pretty good. Like, you know, hacks like that. So that's, that's the first one. Second one is sauces and dressings. And that's a catch all for like, hidden stuff that's in restaurant food. But even when you make a sandwich, and you slather some Manny's on there, man, if you weigh that on a food scale, you'll see like a very thin, like scrape of mayonnaise will give you like 100 calories. So you know, just watch out like mustard is great too, and it's almost no calories. So that's number two. If you're in
Scott Friedman 32:43
anywhere in Chicago, I think they're started open up more across the country but Portillo's has like this house trusting that they have the tiny brick into this big 250 calories and they give you two to three of them to put on your salads. Your salads like 600 calories, add 1500 calories and you don't even realize it tastes so good. So yeah, I agree understand sauces dressings. Just be careful because it up some shocked at how little you need to get the serving size and most service sizes are pretty hefty. I mean, these aren't they're not small. No,
Philip Pape 33:17
they're not. And it's mostly because of the fat right? It was very calorie dense. When I met my wife, you know, she eats salads dry. Like she doesn't use any dressing, which was shocking to me, because I love blue cheese dressing and you know, oil vinegar. But what I'll do now is I'll get like the I don't know if it's bubbles, or what's that brand of barbecue sauce. It's like almost no calories. You know, and barbecue sauce on salad sounds weird, but it kind of tastes like that. Like, what does that berry French dressing or whatever. I know it sounds weird, but you gotta get the right type. It tastes like what's that orange dressing? French dressing
Scott Friedman 33:49
mustard, beautiful bustled salads.
Philip Pape 33:51
No, that's crazy, man.
Scott Friedman 33:55
But by barbecue sauce is where I am not advocating for barbecue sauce on salads. I also don't eat barbecue sauce. So that's just oh, your various reasons. That's okay. But boy, I can see what you're saying. I mean, my favorite dressing personally is balsamic vinegar. I love that. So that's my, that's my go to for almost everything. And
Philip Pape 34:12
one other hack there. Just Just before we go on is like if you have a salad, I like chicken thigh salads when I'm in fat loss phase, because the little bit of extra fat on the chicken thigh acts as a dressing on the salad without very much fat at all. So it's like just coating that salad with a little bit of that mouthfeel from the fat is what we're going for, right? Yeah. Number three would be everything that's called Healthy that they sell in the store in the middle, in the middle aisles. So everything that's a healthy package snack. Not everything. But I mean, just to kind of look at the data, just look what's in there could be much more calorie dense than you think. And I think we know this if you go back to like the 80s when they started the low fat craze and snack walls and all that to today. It's all food science is meant to be highly palatable and getting you to eat more of it and no matter what it's it's going to compare If not going to be favorable compared to Whole Foods, right? No matter how healthy they call it,
Scott Friedman 35:05
oh 100 I mean, and we're also not saying By the way, just because it's calorically dense or than you think it is that you shouldn't eat it, we're just saying, be aware because for example, I buy this granola that is relatively healthy all things considered for granola pretty healthy, you know, organic stuff. And like, that's a serving, like it's so small, and I will find myself eating from the bag, I'll have like six servings without even trying and eat servings 150 calories, and it's just, it's dense, you just have to be aware of it. Because food companies are not your friends. They're not your friends are the opposite of Finding Nemo fish are friends, not food, like these people are not friends at all like they're, they're hunting you like sharks, they know they know they're doing, it's deliberately set to you. So yeah, anything that's labeled healthy or even low calorie is I still think, probably a trap is my take on it.
Philip Pape 35:57
Yeah, 90% of the time. Now, there's some interesting little hacks, Scott that people look at me weirdly when I say it, but like if I have a client who's in fat loss, and I'm fairly low calories, and they're like craving a sandwich, like look, you know that you know, the Excel these this keto bread, it's kind of interesting. It's made with like, wheat starch mixed with a bunch of fiber. It's all it is. And it's actually like 15 grams of fiber and a slice for 40 calories. So I'm like, you know, so there's a magic of food science out there that could serve you, depending on the context we're talking about. Right? So yeah, number four hidden thing would be eating out, just eating out in general. Because just like food manufacturers, restaurants want you to enjoy, have as much food as you can have a bunch of sugar, salt, fat, so you say it's the best thing you've ever had. And then come again and tell your friends how wonderful the food was. If they're not trying to serve your body composition goals, they don't care about. They just care about a delicious meal, which is why you go out to eat, usually for the experience and for the food. So I'm fine. If you want to eat out, plan for it, and know what you're getting into. And then make some smart swaps or choices, not to the extent where you're like suffering and feel like it's not a fun experience like that. That's the counter to his argument is I want you to enjoy the slight indulgence of what you're getting in a restaurant, but do it in a smart way.
Scott Friedman 37:17
No, just I say never eat out does don't do that. Don't go
Philip Pape 37:21
don't eat out food hack.
Scott Friedman 37:23
Hidden calories. Food, don't eat food. You don't eat food. You can't get calories. Now. I agree with you. I think I went to a restaurant recently, actually, shockingly. And this is this. I think this will shock people. I think it was it was either a mozzie it was like a cheese cake five, seven along those lines. I don't know exactly. But the burger and fries was less calories than the salad. Oh, yeah. Like, I'm sitting here. Like, I went ahead and there was an omelet on there as well for breakfast, more calories in the salad. And I was like, How is this possible? And they just they just I mean, we're talking 1500 2000 calories for a meal. That's not even I mean, it's filling but like that's only for one meal, you have a whole rest of the day to go. You can eat your entire daily allotment in one sitting in a restaurant. So it's not that you shouldn't eat out. It's just that be aware of when you're eating out that if you're going to do it, you're doing it and just be aware of it. So it doesn't negatively affect you mentally. Because that's the biggest thing I eat. I eat out. I had wings the other day. I mean, it is what it is not barbecue wings, but I had something. And but yeah, so I agree with you eating out is crazy.
Philip Pape 38:29
Yeah, and the last one I think we touched on already, which is just mindless eating, you know, the grazing? Well, well, what let me let me add nuance here, because mindless isn't just the hidden things that you don't know you're eating. It's the fact that we in modern society are always stimulated by something and doing something we are working or what maybe we're reading a book even but we're always like watching an iPad, watching our phone, doing something eating at the same time. And that can cause you to consume way more calories than if you just were a little bit mindful about I'm not asking you to do like these complex you know, meditative practices of mindful eating that take you know, 45 minutes you can you can
Scott Friedman 39:07
Should we do a reverse? Should we do a reverse influencer take where it's like it before every bite you must meditate like Wim Hof for 30 minutes before every bite of popcorn you can do that. There you
Philip Pape 39:18
go. And that one bite is going to just feel be so filling you won't want another bite of popcorn. Yeah, I know.
39:26
Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach Philip Pape with his coaching I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in so the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you he presents it, it makes even more sense. And another thing that he had was a hunker guide. And that really helped me. So thank you below.
Scott Friedman 40:09
What do you could do is like it, you know, like, I tend to graze. Because I work I work from home. Alright, so my kitchens over there, it's very easy to get to one day I try and do is basically if it's not on a plate, I don't eat it. So I had to pour it on a plate or a bowl. So I could physically see how much I mean. Because if you just do it from the bag, it's just unless we put on a plate, at least you can see it and I believe, don't don't quote me on the size on this, I believe, as you see, we put on a smaller plate, it'll look bigger, and therefore as quote unquote, a hack to make you think you're eating more. There was actually a study done that says our perceptions will indicate our fullness on what we're eating. They basically did, they the three persons that control group study where they gave someone a 300 calories smoothie, they gave one group, the same smoothie was that was 100 calories, they gave a second group the same, so they said it was 900 calories. And they reacted as exactly as you think they would the group that got 100 Calorie smoothie was like, Oh, we're so hungry, we gotta keep going. And the group that had the 900 Calorie smoothie, all the same calories was like we're so full, we can't keep going. So perspective plays a huge role in that grazing mentality. Because you just every 20 minutes go, you're like, oh my god, anything. But if you put on a plate in a bowl, and you see it, it could again, it could help you not eat as much just little things that no extra effort at all.
Philip Pape 41:24
There's so many things like that. I mean, my wife makes the best desserts, and she doesn't like a lot of sugar. So she just leaves out a lot of the sugar. Now sometimes it's replaced with more eggs or butter, which is kind of defeats the purpose. But if in general, it's just a reduction in sugar, I get this, like, you know, this cake and I end up like logging it as a cake. But then realizing I'm actually I'm satisfied. But I noticed that I don't get quite as many calories as I think over the long term because of the fear workout. You know what I'm saying? So like you said, you can trick yourself a little bit in that regard. Okay, so yeah, that was the five things you want to go on to some more mindsets of yours just jump all the way or officially just jump to the next topic? Let's do it. perfect
Scott Friedman 42:05
segue my audience like learn Oh, my audience like no talk more about the foodstuff? We Scott talks about this too much. So basically giving up too quickly overcoming plateaus. I mean, it's I, when we are in the journey, it's very easy to get frustrated here all the time, hey, when do I have to switch my workout or, Hey, it's been two weeks, I'm not seeing weight loss results. Sometimes it takes time. And I think knowing that, again, we talked about kind of builds on each other, knowing that when you go into it and prepare for it, it helps you set proper expectations. If you're three weeks in and quit, because you don't see a change in the mirror on this terrible scale right away. It goes into you're trying to win at something when the reality is there is this concept out there that I call the infinite versus finite paradox of health. And what it is, is basically take a board game, for example, monopoly, there is a clear winner and loser at Monopoly shots, there's a clear winner and loser at shots. Those are finite games, there is a determined ending to determine rule set, and there's a winner. There's just ends. When it comes to your health. It ends when it ends, okay, morbidly like it was not great. It ends with S, but it doesn't end until that point. It's an ongoing cycle forever, right until the last day. And so the issue is we're playing like a, we're playing a chess game. But there's no end to it. And the issue is we think there's this end to it's when people Oh, my God, I lost 40 pounds, and then stop what they're doing. Right? They're like, Oh, and then they gain the 40 pounds back because they stop what they're doing. So the same concept applies, oh, my gosh, I had a bad three weeks. Okay, so what you have another 88,000 weeks to go and you have so much more time to go. We're playing an infinite game where there's no direct winning and losing, it's just about getting to where you want to go and maintain it over time. The key is maintaining it over time. Versus once you get there, nothing magical happens. You're not a better person. I mean, maybe you are but like nothing changes except you just have to keep doing it. Now once you get there becomes easier because you've done it and it's easier to stay I think once you get there, but it's don't go into a journey and spend all the time effort. And number one give up before you even make results because I plateaued well don't just keep going the one thing, think about any field in life, almost any field in life, I can't think of one that is more definitive than fitness and nutrition. There is a clear one to one ratio, eat less calories, lose weight over time, you know, so on so forth, very clear directions. You don't have that in relationships. You don't have that in your job necessarily. You don't I mean, there's nothing that really is like that. And yet it's one of the hardest things for us to accomplish. But take that perspective and take it like a 30,000 foot view and go okay, hold on a second Am I just do this over and over and over and over again. I might not get the instant gratification that I want in the mirror right away. It's on my one bicep curl and look in the Myranda Okay, one bias look like you're not going to get that at the gym. But if you just keep going, and you track over time get not not terrible, not no double crazy what you're going to see results, because there is a direct correlation to what we're trying to do here. And you learn, you grow, you get experience, but people give up so quickly, because they want this, they want to win at this game. And they don't realize that well, what happens after you win, you usually revert back to what you're doing beforehand, which is bad and got to where you were in the first place. And then they don't realize that you have to maintain it over time. So I think going into it understand that this is not something that you do to win, you do it for longevity, you do it so that you can maintain it forever. And I think that it's a very difficult in almost intangible mindset to have. But that's the true nature of health and fitness is that there's no winning at it, it's just yet to get there and maintain it. And that's the game. It's forever. So that's my take on it.
Philip Pape 45:54
It's a very profound concept. And that was that's a really good take. Because, yeah, I want to be deadlifting when I'm 95, and then just keel over the next day like, right, that's
Scott Friedman 46:03
the best way to do it. I
Philip Pape 46:04
don't know, where I'm gonna extend that, because when you talked about tracking and data and awareness, and like, it's not an on off switch, one way that I think we can make it more tangible, right, I'm sure you would agree is the process itself. Like, where can we set ourselves up to get wins daily, I mean, daily, multiple times a day, that's objective, so that we know there's there's going to be something in three weeks or three months or six months, knowing that it works. Now a lot of people don't have the confidence that what they're doing is going to work, because they've tried this, that and the other for the last 30 years. And none of those have worked. Why should we trust Scott, why should we trust Philip, and that is, that's a big barrier to overcome, right. And so that's where like other people who have gone through that you have to to look at objectively at the space and not, you know, not trust marketers and salespeople necessarily, but maybe talk to individuals who've gone through this. And then think about in your own life, as you're listening to this. If you're trying to build muscle, like Scott said, the bicep curl in and of itself isn't going to show you anything. But if you curl, you know, 20 pounds last week, and now your goal is like 22 and a half. And then you do it. Like that's objective data you got stronger that you can get a win from and be super happy about and celebrate, and then go to the next day and the next day after that. So if you can apply that to all the different areas of fitness, not one day, not right now. Like instantly, just pick one thing and then build on it. That in my opinion is a way to not give up too quickly. Because you are seeing progress even on a daily basis.
Scott Friedman 47:33
I just think I think the hard part is doing that. I think the hard part is because people look in the mirror and go I haven't changed. I worked out three days last week, I haven't changed. It's how do we get them from the like, stop worrying about the physical and worry about what we can actually track right now. And we will track the physical, but that just it just takes time. I mean, think of I told my client once I got in trouble for this, so I don't recommend it. But this is me, right? A Nutshell is basically, you know, it was three, we work it out for three weeks together, and they came like once or twice a week, right? So it's very much like, okay, good, good job. But like, we got to do more. They're getting now I'm not seeing any results. This is ridiculous. Of course, we're not even doing diet or just personal training. So I'm like, great. I tell him I look them. And I'm a young gun at this point. So I probably should have been doing this. And I've had decades
Philip Pape 48:19
ago, years, decades. I mean, okay.
Scott Friedman 48:23
And I was like, How old are you is like I'm 40 years ago. Okay, cool. And how long have you been like this for? It's like, ah, since you know, 25? Okay, great. It has been 23 years that you have been doing all this crap to your body, right? Your way doesn't work your way. Got You Here. How will you give me more than three weeks to show you my way? Right? Like it takes more than three weeks to undo 23 years of crap. Alright. And so that's the idea. This is takes a takes a long time you don't go into a company and expect to be CEO in the first three years. Like that's this. This is not how it works like things take time. I'm not sure why we don't have the patience for it. Maybe it's social media, maybe it's just instant gratification that we need now. But I think it's being able to if you can delay gratification of what you're looking to do. For as long as you possibly can, you will see more and better results than you ever thought possible. Period. End of story. There's no nuance to if you can delay gratification. Yeah,
Philip Pape 49:19
no nuance, and I think you alluded to a few times, having support, whether it's a coach or a community or something like that, who you can, even if it's just event and say I'm frustrated, I'm not making progress, and they can be like, school, be patient. We're here for you. We've all been through this. It does take time and Okay, cool. I trust you. And I'll keep going. So like you said, you know, kind of doing it on your own is a little harder only because you have to just be committed and do the experiment and get the data and then see what comes out the other side. Maybe it didn't work, maybe it will. Either way. It's gonna take time to change your body. Cool. Why don't we go to the next thing which is what is the next topic? Okay. Speaking of being impatient, one of the biggest mistakes of course with weight loss is trying to do it too quickly. All right. And part of that is marketing. Part of that is, you know, the restrictive diets, in my opinion, can induce very fast weight loss. The challenge there is that we're trying to lose fat, not weight, going back to the very first point I made. And there's a limit at which your body can shed the energy from the fat cells to turn it into ATP and all that, versus go and consume your muscle mass, right. And we don't want to have that muscle mass deteriorate and waste away. And I like to use these like visceral terms, because I want people to know how bad for your health it is that we lose muscle because it's already happening to you. If you're sedentary, then you exacerbate it by by dieting, by dieting aggressively by by aggressive, I mean, like more than 1% of your body weight a week. If you went on keto, and you did it like all in, and then you lose, you know, 40 pounds in a month, that's probably too aggressive, right? Because that's well beyond the 1% a week. And if you did like a DEXA scan, or you did caliper measurements, you would see you lost some muscle mass. Some of it'll come back, like as soon as you gain weight, but some of it's just gone until you strength train and build it back. So if you're having trouble losing weight, it could be because you're you're going too aggressively with the rate of loss in the past with your yo yo dieting, and your body is adapting very quickly. The hunger ramps up, you binge back and you stop dieting. I'm kind of rambling, Scott, but you can you can bring me back.
Scott Friedman 51:26
I thought it was very clear. I mean, okay, okay, at the end of the day, basically, what you're saying is, your body's going to resist the change, your body's designed to stay in homeostasis, which is basically a status quo, I don't want to change survival. And every time you're trying to lose weight, your body gets signals, okay, hold on a second, we're losing energy here, because it's all about energy that doesn't know that you had a salad you're trying to lose, it doesn't care, it's like, I need this amount of calories to live. By meaning less than this, we need to adapt our physiological functions to this new caloric energy expenditure that we have. So it will lower your metabolism. And if you go too quickly, your body is just going to push way back, it feels like it's dying, and it doesn't know what you're trying to do. And you can't tell it what you're trying to do. It's just, it's just not going to work. And you'll have a lot of bounce back, you know, you're not going to get into like, you know, having to reverse diet and all that kind of stuff, when you go too low for too long. But the idea is your body's going to resist you. So I think he said actually very well, I wasn't I mean, I followed it. So I don't know. Yeah,
Philip Pape 52:20
you know, what I got held up is in my notes, I was trying to separate the ideas of going too aggressively in your past dieting history with yo yo diets, to where you've lost muscle, and it just makes it harder and harder to lose weight versus what you then alluded to, which is metabolic adaptation, you go too quickly, your calories drop severely, and therefore you hit a plateau. And then you're you have trouble losing weight from that point on, which are all valid concepts. I just had a conversation with Jordan lips, you know, Jordan lips, he's, he's a coach, what Jordan loves fitness anyway, he loves to talk about metabolic adaptation. And we had a discussion about how it just exists, like you can't avoid metabolic adaptation. But you can definitely exacerbate it with your lifestyle choices. Right? I mean, we want to Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, so So you can't it's not like you can game it by, you know, reverse dieting and recovery, dieting, all of a sudden, now you burn more calories than you would otherwise, for the same weight and deficit, you're still going to adapt to that same exact level for you. And so the question is, are you doing it at the right rate, that's reasonable. And also practical, like you don't want to be going so aggressive, that it's just, you're hungry all the time, and you're miserable, you have no energy and your hormones are tanked. You can't sleep and you can't train, right? We want to be in that sweet spot where you can go good 1216 weeks, whatever it takes, or even if you need a diet break, and then you continue to actually make that progress. Would you
Scott Friedman 53:41
mentioned earlier, and I want to kind of give a an example to the point. So basically, you said that you're losing muscle when you're not working out, right, you'd be kind of made that point, right. As you get older, it is starting to fade. So basically, you need to maintain your muscle over time. So to me that sounds like is not working out is deflation for your muscle, as inflation is for our money. It's not usually too noticeable, excluding the last three years, but it's usually like 3% a year, similar concept of muscle over the course of the years. If you don't do anything, and you just kind of stay where you're at, you're going to lose muscle might take you a while to figure it out, but you're gonna lose a lot. And then by the time you're 67 years old, like it's like, holy crap, I got you know, I got nothing left. And then it's very hard to build it back up. And so doing it now is actually a very, like, important thing. I just want to kind of make that kind of mental imager people. Yeah,
Philip Pape 54:32
okay. Yeah, let me let me add to that because we lose like 1% of our muscle mass a year from like the age of 30. I mean, it's insane. And I talked to people like you know, guys want to build all this muscle. You know, even if you're not enhanced, you're not on drugs. We want to build all this muscle. And I usually tell people like the most muscle you can build in a lifetime is around 40 pounds for most average males. That's a lot of muscle. But still, we think oh, that's it. However, I want you to to add that muscle to the muscle you're not losing. When you compared to somebody else. So now think of the math, those people are going negative, they're going below zero, right? They're just losing muscle. And now they're 70. You know, let's say 60 years old. And now you have like 60 pounds more muscle than them because of what they've lost versus what you've gained. And I want people to think about how profound that is. That's a great point.
Scott Friedman 55:20
Great point, Don.
Philip Pape 55:22
All right, what do we got next? Man,
Scott Friedman 55:24
I definitely stole this from Alex or Mozi, when he was talking about this, he wasn't talking about fitness, per se. But I love the concept of just look, you're when you go into this, most people don't think this is easy. Most people know that the fitness journey, getting healthy, it's going to be hard. And then they get surprised when they're frustrated. Days go wrong, they're annoyed, they're sad, they're hormonal, whatever it might be, they're just, that's what they want to give up. Take a step back and realize, you knew this is gonna be hard. This is what hard feels like. This is it when you have your hunger pains, when you want to have that slice of cake when your friends are pushing you to do something, and you can't do it because you have this goal. That's what hard feels like. And so next time you're having those struggles, understand that you signed up for this, and you knew this was not going to be a cakewalk. I mean, that would be a cakewalk, then probably gonna change the perspective there. But we knew this wasn't gonna be easy. So going into it, say, hey, look, like if you're feeling like this is bad, or this is hair, well, this, this is hard to do. Great. That's what it feels like. And it's also a sign that you're on the right path. It's also a sign that you're doing the right things. Because if it was easy, then you're probably not doing enough. For example, just from a weightlifting example, if you're doing 10 reps on any exercise, and you get done, I got easy, done great. You probably didn't do it, right. Because if your goal is 10 reps, that 10th rep should be very, very difficult to complete. And the the same concept applies to losing weight or going in fight as we keep building that habit, whatever it might be, there's a specific point of impact that you're going for. And if you don't feel that intensity, that feel that discouragement almost so that that annoyed to get off. I'm looking in the mirror, it's been three weeks, I have not done any inches yet. Great. That's what heart feels like, then you're on the right path, it's just a matter of time, if you're doing the right things until you're gonna see results.
Philip Pape 57:20
Do you think there's like a hardness curve. So for example, there's, there's a huge amount of friction at the beginning. Once you start getting some sort of progress, even though it's hard, you develop some resilience, where the hard is, I guess you can sit with it better, or you can receive it better, or the fact that it's hard becomes a thing you look forward to like what are your thoughts on all of those concepts? Oh,
Scott Friedman 57:43
gosh, there's two, I have two thoughts on it. Because I don't think I have an answer. Because I think it's both I think that one as you get better. I'm not sure it gets easier. But like with the knowledge and experience and even strength that you've gained through it, that you're just more confident. And that confidence of it is just like, Okay, I know it's gonna be hard, no big deal. It's not like for me, like, for example, I'm trying to lift 100 pound dumbbells at any easier than then when it was getting to 70 pound dumbbells, it's still just as hard. My confidence is what's changed? I think it's more of a confidence question than a hardness question. I don't think it ever necessarily gets easier. I think your perspective of what you're doing gets easier, because you have now the experience, you have the social proof that you can do it. And I think that leads to sticking with the program longer and getting those results even though quote unquote, it could be easier Horrocks, I would argue that it's harder to live 350 pounds on bench than 225 in almost every category, regardless of where you're at, just because it's physically heavier, just because you could do to 25. Now whatever, even though you're stronger, I still think it's just as hard to get to that point, if not harder, but I've just had more confidence. I know that's a very niche example is that everyone's doing that. But like, I don't think losing weight gets easier. Inherently I think that you just become better at it. That's my general general take on it.
Philip Pape 59:02
No, that's a great way to put it. And one nuance on that is she mentioned lifting weights, right like curls, we probably all as guys don't mind going and doing curls, right? But you take something like a Bulgarian split squat, which is like on the top five hated exercises or something Oh, hard. And it's like, what is it about those things? And, you know, do Is there any way to make them comparably? Hard to the things that are less hard? Yeah, but what I mean is like, if you really love bench pressing, but you really disliked this other thing. Can we reframe it in a way where we can almost like this as much as benchpress in the context of knowing it's hard, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I
Scott Friedman 59:39
don't know. I don't think I've ever done that. I mean, I think I just do it, and I hate it. And I know I'm gonna hate it and I push it Yeah. And I say I hate it. I just I think maybe that gives me the strength to get past it because I like Benji and I hate Bulgarian split squats. I mean, in the example so is there a way to reframe it? Yes, I 100% think there is a way to reframe it. I'm not sure I have the best answer to do so someone probably smarter and more experienced than me probably has something some sort of Guru reframing method of, but I think also the person's personality takes into effect. I mean, if you talk to a brad Ritter, who is the School of Grandmaster if you know him, but he did this amazing channel, he's all about challenging, almost like a David Goggins kind of deal. They have that mentality of that they love to torture the body. I don't necessarily have that. I'm not sure I can reframe or I don't think they reframe it. I think they just do
Philip Pape 1:00:29
it. They just do it. I don't think that's necessarily healthy for most. I
Scott Friedman 1:00:33
don't I'm not sure it's healthy either. So I think there's ways to reframe, I hesitate to give any specifics on how to do that. But I bet you usually have that personality, you could i My personality is like I had to do this, I'll see results, I'm gonna feel good afterwards, I just kind of have to talk myself up. But it's about the discipline of just doing it in my mind. So
Philip Pape 1:00:51
maybe the principle is for those listening, like, think about a way that you could make it easier for yourself from a reframing perspective, you know what, it's something individual to you. Like, for me, it might be okay, I'm surrounding it with all these other movements that I do love. I'm going to do this one thing, because I know it's going to smash my quads. And that's what I'm working on right now. And then I'm going to measure my my thighs every week, and it's going to get bigger, you know, like somehow to make it a little bit more palatable. But I could be doing this other movement. That's more fun. Okay, so speaking of things that are hard, it's the hunger during fat loss, right? When we talk about having trouble losing weight, I think you talked about it already hunger exists, it's going to happen, it's a sign that your fat cells are releasing energy, I actually just did an episode all about the science behind it very nerdy, very mechanical about the mechanisms in the body of how like fatty acids get turned to ATP. The cool thing about it, Scott is I didn't, I didn't know that 84% of the energy release is carbon dioxide. Like, yes. Did you lose weight? You probably didn't do that. And 16% is water. So I had forgotten that. Because people are always like, Well, where does it actually go? Does it come out in your you know, your urine? Or let? Anyway, hunger happens? Right? So the question is, Can we can we do anything about it? A lot of it is perception, right? Because a lot of hunger is emotional, or habitual, or psychological in some way. You know, like, if you go from a building phase to a fat loss phase, you're eating six times, now you eat three, those other three gaps in the day, your brain is telling you Where's my food? Right. And that's not real hunger necessarily. There's also the way you set up your diet. I'm a huge fan of answering three questions when you set up your diet one, does it fill me up? To do I enjoy it? And three, can I guilt free? Like those are pretty solid questions to ask yourself, that if you violate them, there could be improvements. So when it comes to hunger, you know, things like fiber and protein are the classics. Of if you have the protein in there, which should be fairly high during fat loss, probably around half of your calories, depending on what you know, calorie level you're at. If you have fiber, which can be hard to get if you're not paying attention to it, right. And if you have enough nutrient dense filling foods, you're gonna do everything you can to mitigate hunger. I do like other hacks, like, you know, hydration or vegetable soups. I like eating harder foods you have to digest like, don't throw the fruit in a smoothie in fat loss, like eat the fruit. Eat the fruit, it'll take time you chew it, the saliva, the what do you call hormones in your gut, and your brain will tell you that you're actually getting fuller than if you process the food in a blender. So that's just to get the discussion started. What else you want to add to that?
Scott Friedman 1:03:29
And I mean, that's actually a really I was gonna ask you that question cuz I don't actually know the answer. I'm like, Does eating like for example, I have a smoothie that's probably 400 calories deep. And I can have a I don't feel full from it. And but there's plenty of protein in it. Versus I can have, let's just say ground turkey with with quinoa and veggies, right, whatever I have, which is 350 calories or something like that. And I will be significantly more full from that all things close to equal maybe more protein over here, but like, less calories, maybe because I'm chewing it. Or it's maybe it's a different source of protein. That could be it but I guess Yeah. Is there something to chewing your food versus putting in a smoothie for hunger? I guess hunger retention or not hunger retention?
Philip Pape 1:04:10
Yeah, I think I think it's multiple factors. I think there's there's hormones that get secreted. But there's also the time factor, like you're taking time to eat it. And so it's getting into your stomach and sitting there and starting to trigger those hormones leptin and ghrelin, but even like some magnetite, everybody knows that from the anti obesity drugs. That's like a, I believe that's like a stomach centered hormone, just like serotonin is in the gut, you know, and there's a link between gut health and like, how you feel good and sleep and everything. Between all of those, it's pretty fascinating. But the more you can eat whole foods, take time eating your foods to them, you know, it's gonna help a little bit with hunger. Now, these are hacks, I always like to say they're hacks because at the end of the day, you're in a deficit, and you're going to be hungry to some extent. So it's like, identifying and documenting how that's occurring because something simple like by tightening the feeding window or shifting carbs or shifting, you know, your workout or whatever could be just the ticket to, you know, making the hunger just a little bit less. And the whole point of making it less is just so that you stick with it long enough to get to your goal. Conversely, if hunger is just too much, and you've done everything, you're probably in too big of a deficit is willpower is gonna get you to the end, which is hard for most people like bodybuilders do that. But most of us are not bodybuilders. So, yeah, what do you think?
Scott Friedman 1:05:28
I think I like you said, two things that I specifically do. So people are gonna call me crazy. But I so I do two things. Number one to help hunger measure. So I intermittent fast, I go from right around 14 to 16 hours, I'm trying to gain weight, I'll probably shoot down to 14 to 12 hours, I'm trying to lose weight or maintain weight, I'm at the 15 to 16 Mark, usually, sometimes I go more, but that's the average. So I have eating windows, it helps me I stopped eating at, let's just say 730 Every single night now before is fine, whatever, you know, 30 minutes before, but what it does, it blocks it for me. I don't care how hungry I am. I know I ate for the day, I'm done eating. I don't start again until roughly 10 o'clock the next day or so. Give or take or whatever the the actual math is on that. But what I do is I actually work out at the end of my fast. So from like, 730 to 930. I'm at the gym, not for the full two hours. But do I do sauna. So I'm gonna calm down to our work. I'm not saying two hours, gotta do saunas. And I work out during that. So I workout fasted, and then I get home, I'm feeling great. And then I break the fast with a nice high protein slash carb meal to kind of help with the hunger that I'm having. And then I kind of get the rest of the day. But I think having those windows of eating should not even from any sort of metabolic physiological thing, just from a routine structure standpoint, is so valuable, because it's a rule. And there's it's black and white, don't eat after this time. Don't eat before this time. Again, you're on vacation or not. But regularly speaking, it really helps maintain it, your body adapts to it. But again, after two weeks, if you're like dying from it, of course, we got to switch things up. But overall, if you can kind of find that sweet spot, I think is very helpful when it comes to hunger management.
Philip Pape 1:07:11
That's huge. The principle of it, right? Like people don't have to fast per se, just be routine about it and have a fixed feeding window. And you might get you might go so far. So like schedule it in it first. It's just like tracking, it's like tracking your food might sound a little neurotic. But if you've been all over the place, like just putting on your calendar like this is when I eat you know and get do that for a week or two. And then you're in a routine and there you go. Your body actually your metabolic rate. This is a valid point you brought up, physiologically your metabolic rate will actually down regulate just a bit if you're not in a routine, because of that, like unpredictability of the food supply to your body. So it's like, Oh, you gotta conserve calories. Yeah, yeah, it's so many things can impact your metabolism. And that's when we talk about dieting and weight loss and fat loss. Like a lot of it is about food. But a lot of it is about your lifestyle choices to make eating food easier and able to eat more of it as you're losing that weight. So yeah, other than that, I mean for hunger, I would say swapping foods out, the more you get into a fat loss phase where calories are tight, where you hardly notice a difference, you know, like refined versus white carbs or what did I have in here? My notes? Oh, these were all Ultra processed foods that yeah, okay, this was like soda and candy. You could have diet soda. Like I'm not against diet soda. I have no problem. You aspartame is not going to kill you. That's That's my understanding of the evidence. Just it's better than regular soda or you know, in terms of like trying to manage your calories and sugar and take a whatnot. Alcohol is another one. You know again, if you don't want to cut it out completely be smart about it. Drink light beer, you know, drink, drink fewer times a week, do non alcoholic, which is not alcohol, but it tastes like it. So yeah, that's it. We can go on about hunger, we go to the next topic.
Scott Friedman 1:08:54
This one will be quick. The next one will be quick. All right, basically not moving enough. Pretty. I mean, I think this one's pretty simple, is just move that there was a study done that was like basically, if you walk for a brisk walk for 20 minutes a day, it will decrease your chances for any kind of long term illness or disease by like upwards of 30% I mean, it was crazy amount walk, you burn more calories and you walk, you're gonna feel better when you walk, you're gonna lose more weight when you walk, you're gonna be using your body moving your body, there's just there's so much benefits to moving. Even if it's not, again, I recommending resistance training, but even if it's not that just moving itself is so valuable on a regular basis, and it's gonna help your mood, which, for example, have you ever tried to make a decision while you're sitting on the couch? Don't I always tell people, especially if that decision is not aligned with their goals? So you're like, Oh, I'm so hungry. I'm gonna go I have this popcorn right here before you eat it. Stand up, walk around for 10 seconds and then ask yourself the same question. I would argue that your your answer is going to change change a little bit. Because when you're sick, when you're not moving, everything, just kind of just, it's like stagnant air just kind of sits there, when you're moving, things are working, you're at more oxygen into your head. Like there's a lot of things that have happened in that. And so I think moving is so significant from a multi faceted approach that just got to move, just try and move for 20 minutes every single day, do something as you were starting from nothing, that is the best piece of advice, because just you got to get going, and that it's just shown to help you in so many different areas, not just weight loss, but in every area.
Philip Pape 1:10:28
Yeah, it's not much more to add to add to that, I mean, walking helps with your mental health, like you said, it helps with your, you know, just getting calories to your brain, your brain consumes 20% of the energy of your body, and it's very bio energetic. A lot of people that I know are lifters, and they just lift but then they won't move. And they're actually independent things like lifting weights for acute stress, you know, acutely stressed sessions, it and then not moving at all, there's still a lot of health consequences to that you've got to move. So agree there's not much more to add to that, we go into training. Alright, so training, one of my my my fun topics here is, of course, when you're in a fat loss phase, because again, we're talking about losing weight. And we don't want to lose weight, we want to lose fat, like we want to lose body mass, but we want that body mass to be fat. And the only way that's going to happen is we have sufficient muscle building stimulus, you have to tell your body that you're at least attempting to build muscle in the attempt to at least preserve the muscle maintain the muscle, the cool thing is that it takes a lot less volume, like training volume to maintain muscle than it does to build muscle. So when you go into fat loss phase, the wrong approach is to say I need to burn fat and burn calories, therefore, I'm going to do more like I'm going to do more reps, and I'm going to do more volume, it's actually the opposite. Like you could do almost less as long as you keep the load pretty intense train close to failure, like Scott mentioned earlier, like, gotta feel like it's hard. And it might even feel harder because you're in fat loss. And that's a very efficient way to work out, like three or four days a week, whatever your program says, you might even cut the number of movements and just go heavy. And then now you have all this recovery time to take advantage of the fewer resources you have. But you're still going to hold on to that muscle, which is what we're trying to do.
Scott Friedman 1:12:13
Actually, I'm curious to hear the answer on this one. So let's say at a normal muscle building phase, and you're trying to build specifically muscle, we believe believe that the best ratio of sets per week, or whatever the intensity is about 10 to 20, depending on the person and their training level. If you're in a fat loss phase, what would you say the sets per week for a muscle would be in order to at least be you know, it was that range.
Philip Pape 1:12:39
I mean, if you go by the studies on volume for maintaining muscle, it could be as low as like a quarter to half of your volume. But But I wouldn't just I wouldn't cut it by that much like in practice. Yeah, that's more of like if you've if you've been training a long time, and now you want to do other pursuits, and you don't want to spend so much time in the gym kind of thing. But when you're training, I would just say, Do what you're already doing and gauge the biofeedback you know, in those first few weeks how you feel, but the most Yeah, but the most important thing, honestly, is going to be the stimulus to fatigue, but also the the results with your lifts. Meaning if your lifts are pretty much maintaining more or less, you're probably fine. Right? You're gonna lose strength, but you're probably not gonna lose much muscle if you're doing it that way. And I
Scott Friedman 1:13:24
think a point from a practical point, and when you're losing weights, if you're losing weight, and you can maintain, so let's say you do 100 pounds on whatever the lift is, and you keep doing 100 pounds at 10 reps or whatever the rep range is right? That's actually you're actually gaining muscle because you're losing weight. So if you let's say you weighed 100 pounds, and you're lifting 100 pounds, now you weigh 99 pounds, and you're lifting 100 pounds, that ratio is it's slightly different. That means you're stronger than you were before. Now you're 9897 96. Now eventually what's going to happen is at a certain point, because it happens all of us, unless you're a bodybuilder, are really, really good at this, like the lift is gonna go down. So you could expect the lift to decrease. But you should not do that on purpose. It's just just because you're not strong enough anymore. Because you are going to lose some muscle when you're losing weight. The idea is to lose as little as humanly possible. And that's how you're going to see it. So if you're losing weight and your lifts are staying relatively the same, that's great. You should not I repeat this 100 times everyone has this question. If you are in fat loss phase, do not deliberately decrease the weight that you are training at. You want to stay there until you cannot stay there. So um, for some reason, there's this, I guess, myth out there that, oh, I'm in a fat loss phase, I need to decrease the weight that I'm lifting, which makes no sense to me. No, like nothing changes other than your it's gonna be harder to maintain that in my perspective.
Philip Pape 1:14:43
Yeah. And you hit on you know, there's some counterintuitive things that people just aren't familiar with, like the fact that your relative strength could go up as you're losing weight. I mean, my chin ups and pull ups start to fly when I'm starting to lose weight initially, right? Because I'm just losing weight on my body. Yeah, but what was the other thing I was gonna say about that? It was counterintuitive man and slipped my mind these conversations, it's like I have three things in the buffer and I maybe get to one or two, you know what I'm saying? Oh, yes, I know what it was is recovery and volume. So, again, counter intuitively, you may find it more beneficial, especially if you're older and have like recovery, more limited recovery to work more days a week, but shorter sessions during fat loss, like I've seen that be very successful for people to work. Like if you're normally doing three or four, now you go to five or six, but they're like half hour sessions with three movements. And now you're spreading out that fatigue, and never over stressing yourself from like an energy perspective with the fewer calories coming in. Not for everybody, though, you know, like, especially women can handle more recovery than men. But I've seen this be successful with men too. So just one of those cool little things. I like it.
Scott Friedman 1:15:48
I mentioned point of impact earlier, but basically just make sure you're training whatever rep range, you're doing that last rep. It should be. I thought a huge train of failure guy, I think training near failure is more effective, at least for the average person. I'm not talking about the advanced lifters. But yeah, so like whatever you're doing, if you're doing 10 reps, and you're in the weight loss phase, and you can do more, you probably should do more. And that's probably the wrong weight or the wrong rep ranges that be in Yeah,
Philip Pape 1:16:14
and one last thing I mean, no, I agree about the the RTR reps and reserve like isolation movements, go for it, you know, go to failure, cheater reps, drop sets, whatever intensity stuff you want to do. But like the big list, you know, yeah, one to two, maybe even three from failure depending on what you're doing. One thing we didn't cover, I don't know, if we would have done it on the movement section is just cardio in general cardio can be a huge variable when it comes to fat loss in terms of a negative in my opinion, like doing too much cardio, during fat loss can raise the stress on your body and also make it harder to lose weight. So I know it didn't seem like we had that in the list. Very important, ladies, especially who love to do the spin class, the boot camps, the F 45. The all this stuff. Fat Loss is the last point. Fat Loss is the last phase where you want to actually think exercise equals calorie burn. No, don't do that. Please don't think exercise equals calorie burn, walking and movement and being active. Yeah, that can contribute to that. But if you are running a lot, and now you're affecting your joints, and you're tearing up muscles a bit more, and you're impeding recovery, now your body says well, I need to recover from that. So I'm not gonna have as much to recover from lifting, for example, and I'm not going to have enough to keep your metabolic rate where it needs to be. So now all of a sudden, you start burning fewer and fewer calories. That's not to say you can't have some like medium intensity cardio in there for cardiovascular health and a little bit of calorie burn. But it's got to be, you know, moderated.
Scott Friedman 1:17:38
Yeah, the way I think about it is just like don't do any more than you normally would do. Because you're trying to burn fat. If you're on the treadmill for 30 minutes, that's your that's, that's your fun thing to do. Or you play basketball or pickleball, which is the new thing, you know, do it go do it. Understand, though, first and foremost, it's going to put you in a larger deficit. And that's where you get into trouble with these. And that's really what I think the issue is getting these large deficits, where your body will react negatively, either push, you will fight you really hard or will lower the amount of calories gonna burn in a day. And therefore you get into this cycle of, okay, whoa, I'm burning 500 calories on the treadmill. And I'm only netting 1200 calories a day eating like total eating wise, your body is going to slowly shut down, and then you think, Oh, I gotta eat less, or, or burn more. And then you're only putting in 1000, and then 800. And then you're not losing any more weight. And you get into this kind of cycle. And it's not good for your body. So you know, you want to stick to the I think is a five to 10% deficit, from your caloric maintenance part, which you can find online, whatever it was your coach, whatever it is, and then from there, just kind of try and maintain that. So whatever you do for that, that's what you should do and eat back the calories. So I actually in a fat loss phase, I actually use cardio to eat more so that I can like so. So that I have that I do I do net, I didn't net deficit. So if I have to eat, say just say 1800 calories, what I have to eat to lose a pound a week, I will divide 300 calories on the treadmill, I know I can eat 300 more calories that day to 10. Net, my 1800. So I had to do a dual shifter that I use both kind of ranges to kind of get me there to give me trouble if you don't track it properly. But I do find that it's valuable for some people.
Philip Pape 1:19:15
That's interesting. That's interesting, because I wouldn't use it on a daily day to day basis necessarily like that. But I could see a weekly incorporate Yeah, weekly where like Now you've seen how your expenditure if it's actually gone up and you can increase your calories and then you kind of take advantage but you know, if you're in tune with this stuff, that's the point. If you're in tune, you're watching your numbers and your weights going where you want it to go then great. You're doing everything you want to do. So let's let's go to the last thing because they're all kind of related to stress on the body overall, causing a change in metabolic rate. What's What's the issue here was sleeping stress. Well,
Scott Friedman 1:19:49
one of the biggest things is that you can be doing everything right. And if you're not sleeping enough, you're your again your body. There's a lot of intangible things in your body. We don't See when they're invisible to us that are currently operating on every single day. And a lot of things will happen if you don't sleep well. So I mean, if you don't sleep enough, right increases irritability will increase hunger, you might store more fat because of it, it reduces expenditure, there's so many things that are going to happen if you're not sleeping properly. So the idea is, if you actually also I think if you do too much high intensity cardio, I believe there's a stress threshold or stress threshold that we have, where if you too much stress in the body, and one day, your bed very difficult to sleep as well. There's another thing, there's if you're just hammering it, like you might find that you're having trouble sleeping, which then in turn, will make it harder to lose weight, because other aspects of not having enough sleep are negative. So a lot of things there when it comes to not sleeping enough. So having that kind of self awareness, when you're doing this is pretty important. Because if you're not sleeping well, and you know, you're not sleeping, well, trying to identify, Okay, what am I doing that's causing this lack of sleep? is important? Is it coming from to doing too much? Or is it coming from more of an habitual routine basis? And what I mean by that is, what are you doing before you're going to sleep? Are you you know, watching TV? Are you eating? Are you drinking? What's the activity before bed? What are you doing? And then if you can identify what's happening? Can we reduce or take away something to see it that helps you sleep? So for example, I got the aura ring, not a paid advertisement. So do it at your own. Due to your risk.
Philip Pape 1:21:36
All nutrition coaches have one right?
Scott Friedman 1:21:38
I love I love it. It's interesting. I think I give it like a B on the scale of like 85 out of 100. I think that's where I would scale it right now from the information, but I use it to track my sleep and sudden I'd say hey, man, your resting heart rate was super high last night, like try doing X, Y and Z instead. So what are some things that get my heart rate going? Number one, if I eat too late, which some again, on the weekend or something, if I don't follow my structured routine, that will happen. So if you I believe you might have better knowledge on this than I will I tell people try to eat roughly an hour and a half, two hours before you go to sleep. Right? Like if you're eating 30 minutes for bed, that could cause issues like that will might cause you to be up longer and not get good sleep. Are you drinking before bed that might call again could cause you to wake up more times than you wanted to wake it up once it's probably fine during the night. I don't think that's an issue at all, but multiple times that could cause a disruption and get you where sleep. Are you watching TV. And if you're watching TV, that stimulation, just the stimulation itself. So phone, TV, any sort of stimulation, any argument you have whatever, like your brains up and going. The second thing what that is blue light, how much blue light are you pushing your eyeballs I have, I'm trying to look around, I got blue light glasses over here. So if I'm watching TV later on the computer, like I put these on, and it tastes with a blue light. So at least I get rid of that because I know blue light in me. That's what causes me to have trouble sleeping. So there's a lot of things that you might be doing that you don't realize that are inhibiting your ability to get good sleep, which then silently secretly, Phantom li inhibits your ability to lose weight or lose fat in the long run. And you wouldn't know whatever correlate watching an hour of TV, a high intensity drama tv show that gets your heart rate going to bad sleep to then not losing fat, which it's kind of a loose correlation, but it is there. And so making sure that you can identify any of those stressors can be very important if you're struggling with it.
Philip Pape 1:23:28
Yeah, I think you've covered most most of the stuff like I mean, I know people have heard the Sleep Sleep hacks a million times on all sorts of podcasts, right? But they're always subtle things that might work for you. And there he goes, putting on the glasses. I have the amber ones that I wear at night and sometimes I just fall asleep on the couch wearing those things they work. So what Scott mentioned right, like, is this sleep poor sleep the route the the symptom of another cause? Or is it the sleep routine itself, he brought up a bunch of things I would just say like also if you can find a way to let your mind unwind at some point, and it might not even be right before bed it might be earlier in the day, we're just taking 20 minutes to yourself to literally not get stimulated by anything in the world because everything is stimulating us to get your thoughts out and process those that can actually have a lot like hours later when you go to sleep. That's just a little hack a lot of people don't think about because we're just on and on and on all day. Cool, man. So sleep and stress very important as well to losing weight. We're going on what an hour and a half. So this has been pretty epic and and it's been fun and we covered I mean a vast majority of topics there's probably even more we could have covered. So you know people can check out our shows. I had a blast covering all this. I hope people listening will take one thing you know you don't have to do all 20 Just take like one thing that resonated with you and take that baby step and action forward. And you know do the hard thing like we said it's gonna be a little bit hard but that's that's where the beauty comes from the process. Anything you want to say before we sign off?
Scott Friedman 1:24:56
No, I mean, we covered a vast array topics. It's Obviously, No, you listen to it, you'll get like 20% of what you listen to the first time. So listen to it again and get another 20% and see and kind of get more of it. I think that remember,
Philip Pape 1:25:07
listen to it on both podcasts. Well, yeah, the
Scott Friedman 1:25:10
most important thing you can do is to subscribe to both podcasts, because you're gonna keep hearing this information over and over again. So this is great. Listen to this awesome. Share this with everyone you know, listen to Wits, & Weights, listen to the power of progress. Wherever you're at subscribe, there's YouTube, there's Apple podcasts, or Spotify. Because the more you listen to it, the more you're gonna gain the knowledge, gain the experience, gain the confidence, and you're gonna start seeing results long term. And it's literally completely free to do all of that. So that's the most important thing you can do today is subscribe to both shows, because you'll get the most information and that's the best ROI of today's episode.
Philip Pape 1:25:46
There you go. I don't think I can add to that. I mean, I was gonna say Go Go follow our progress. Go follow Wits, & Weights, wherever you're listening to this in your favorite app, give us a follow, give us a follow. that'll really help us a lot. Don't just download it, give it a follow, share. And we'll be there in your ears for you know, there's our beautiful resonant voices to carry along your fitness journey for months and years to come. Right. I
Scott Friedman 1:26:06
think you have the nice voice I have that like nasally annoying voice. They LISTEN TO ME ON 3x speed to get her over with
Philip Pape 1:26:12
Oh, don't get me started listening quickly. That's another way you can de stress is actually don't listen to. It's funny because my voice is kind of torn up now. So alright, so I just want to thank everybody for listening. I want to thank you for joining me and Scott on this very cool, co hosted co created experience. Todays was valuable, I hope and we covered a lot and I hope you you know, take that step, take that step, whatever it is reach out to us as well. All that information is in the show notes if you need any help and we'll be here to help you. And we'll talk to you next time on Wits. & Weights and power progress. All right, take it easy and stay strong. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 149: 4 Surprising Ways to Lose That Midlife Belly Fat with Megan Dahlman
Are you grappling with persistent belly fat? Are the hormonal shifts typically experienced by women over 40 posing challenges to your fitness journey? Philip speaks with fitness expert Megan Dahlman, the sought-after trainer for women over 40 who want to feel their physical best for years to come. We discuss the fun yet frustrating topic of belly fat in women over 40, including the physiological and hormonal changes that affect belly fat and common myths about it, plus 4 surprising, evidence-based strategies for fat loss.
Are you grappling with persistent belly fat? Are the hormonal shifts typically experienced by women over 40 posing challenges to your fitness journey?
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) speaks with fitness expert Megan Dahlman, the sought-after trainer for women over 40 who want to feel their physical best for years to come.
We discuss the fun yet frustrating topic of belly fat in women over 40, including the physiological and hormonal changes that affect belly fat and common myths about it, plus 4 surprising, evidence-based strategies for fat loss.
With a degree in Exercise Science and as a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (CSCS), Megan has an uncanny ability to take complicated aspects of your body and make them simple, doable, and actually sustainable.
Through her top 1% podcast, Self Care Simplified, and online training programs and courses, Megan genuinely cares about every woman she interacts with and coaches. Her mission is to empower every woman to feel strong, pain-free, and body-confident, regardless of age.
Get an EXCLUSIVE bonus interview with Megan on the 6 BEST core exercises for women of all stages of life & 3 exercises to avoid if you have a weak core
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:34 Her philosophy on building muscle
6:31 The gap between the general population and athletes
8:41 Why belly fat is talked about so much
14:32 Hormonal changes during peri and postmenopause on belly fat
17:57 Science behind belly fat accumulation in women over 40
19:55 Belly fat myths
23:48 Sleep and its relation to cortisol and inflammation
26:09 Stress management and the importance of saying "no"
30:20 Nutrition for reducing belly fat
35:02 Tracking and how to eat
39:54 Strength training versus cardio for muscle building
43:31 One question Megan wished Philip had asked her
47:53 Learn more about Megan and her work
Episode resources:
@megandahlman on IG
5-day Core Tune Up: FREE program that safely strengthens your tired, flabby core muscles and restores proper function to your entire midsection!
Episode summary:
When it comes to health and fitness for women over 40, the game changes significantly. The battle against belly fat becomes more complex, and a deeper understanding of one's body is required to navigate through the physiological and hormonal shifts that occur during this stage in life. Megan Dahlman, with her 17 years of experience in fitness training, offers a treasure trove of insights into this transformative period.
Women in midlife face unique challenges that can derail their fitness and health goals if not properly addressed. As estrogen levels fluctuate and eventually decline during perimenopause and menopause, women experience changes in muscle mass, appetite, and fat distribution. These hormonal shifts can significantly affect one's ability to maintain a healthy weight, particularly around the abdomen. Dahlman highlights the critical role medical support plays during this time, urging women to seek out professional guidance to ensure they are on the right track.
The podcast episode delves into the common misconceptions surrounding core workouts and their effectiveness in reducing belly fat. Contrary to popular belief, focusing solely on abdominal exercises does not directly result in a flatter stomach. Instead, Dahlman promotes a holistic approach to health, emphasizing the importance of sleep, stress management, and a well-rounded fitness regimen. She also touches on the detrimental effects of excessive calorie restriction and the overemphasis on cardio as a means of fat loss, advocating for a more balanced and sustainable approach to fitness.
One of the more enlightening discussions in the episode centers around nutrition, particularly the role of protein in a woman's diet during midlife. Dahlman encourages a gradual increase in protein intake to support muscle mass maintenance, offering practical tips for incorporating more protein into one's diet. She simplifies the nutritional landscape with the 'eat your pros' approach, advocating for a focus on protein and produce at every meal without the hassle of calorie counting.
As the conversation progresses, Dahlman shares her "rule of threes" philosophy, a concept that underscores the timeline for fitness results. This principle suggests that it takes three weeks to feel a difference in one's body, three months to visibly notice changes, and three years for new habits to become an integral part of one's identity. It's a reminder of the importance of consistency and patience in the journey towards long-term wellness.
The episode wraps up with an invitation to the listeners to connect with Megan Dahlman through her podcast "Self Care Simplified" and her Instagram, where she continues to share valuable advice and motivation for integrating wellness into daily life.
For women over 40, this podcast episode with Megan Dahlman on serves as a roadmap to mastering midlife fitness. It's a conversation filled with practical advice, evidence-based strategies, and a reassuring voice that empowers women to take control of their health and fitness with confidence and knowledge.
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Transcript
Megan Dahlman 00:00
Don't judge something in the first three weeks, please. Like just give it time to settle in and work for you. And then let's make sure that by three weeks you're starting to feel your body improve. And then around three months, we should be seeing some visible changes. It's probably not going to be this giant change. We're all about no quick fixes around here. But that's a really good benchmark to aim for.
Philip Pape 00:29
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm joined by fitness expert Megan Dolman, who in her 17 years of training professionally has become the sought after trainer for women over 40 who want to feel their physical best for years to come. I brought her on the show to tackle the fun and often frustrating topic of belly fat, especially in women over 40 will separate fact from fiction, you'll learn about the physiological and hormonal changes that affect belly fat. And Megan will share four perhaps surprising but as always evidence based strategies for reducing belly fat. Megan's insights will give you more confidence in tackling that mid life, which he calls fluffin. Top, whether you're looking to enhance your health or physique, or better understand your body with a degree in Exercise Science. And as a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. Megan has an uncanny ability for taking complicated aspects about your body, and making them simple, doable, and actually sustainable. We like that word here sustainable. Through her top 1% podcast, self care simplified, and online training programs and courses. She genuinely cares about every woman she interacts with, and coaches with a unique attention to detail, grace and patience. Ask any of your clients and they'll say that Megan isn't just an outstanding trader. But she's a phenomenal coach that truly cares. Megan's mission is to help every woman no matter their age, feel strong, pain free and confident in all aspects of her body. Megan, it is a pleasure to have you on the show. Hello,
Megan Dahlman 02:25
thank you. What an introduction. Excited to be here.
Philip Pape 02:30
That's the thing we do here, Megan, you know, I've been following your work for a bit now. And I loved immediately what I was hearing. And what I was hearing was that you emphasize strength training, and building muscle and a lot of the evidence based stuff that we talked about. But it's also I'll say, nuanced and accessible at the same time, especially for women who are just getting started, you know, you, you kind of take them along for the journey of it's okay, don't stress, you know, one step at a time. Tell us about your personal philosophy, your mission to help women get strong, pain free and confident.
Megan Dahlman 03:02
Yeah, you know, I got my start as an athletic performance specialist. So training like high level athletes, and I always thought that that was so impressive, you know, what a cool thing to have on your resume to be like an Olympic trainer. And it was fun but but how it kind of evolved to who I work with now of primarily 40 plus year old women is I would train athletes, many of them would be young, that their parents would be in the wings watching and they'd be like, Wait a second. Can I work with you like that looks way more fun and effective. Then the Zumba class. I'm going to the My Jazzercise class, you know. And so it started evolving to training adults, kind of the general population of people who are like I really want to move and operate and work like an athlete. Because when it comes down to it, that is how our bodies were created and designed to move period. And so it's fun to bring things from this athletic world, into the average individual and show them how amazing their body can operate. When we focus on those things that help you optimize the way that your body moves, the way your body functions on a daily life on a daily basis. It's so exciting. And I think unfortunately, in the fitness industry, there's this giant chasm between trainers and people who are really fit and athletic. Who this is their life. They love it, they live it, they breathe it like they just know a lot about it. And unfortunately, the large majority of the population where fitness good nutrition, taking care of your body is a foreign concept and really hard to do. And so I keep seeing that gap getting wider between people who are deep into the research and real into it and I care about, I don't care what the study say I just, I want to be able to go through the day and not have my knees hurt. And so that's really my mission is to kind of fill in the gap and be I will, I will bring the evidence based work to you, I'll meet you where you are, I won't bog you down, I won't overwhelm you, I'll keep it as simple as possible. And in the long run, that's gonna make it doable and sustainable and get you excited to keep going. So that's really the philosophy behind and my mission behind everything I do. I think the
Philip Pape 05:36
way you explain all that was the most succinct, direct way that I've ever heard for what many of us are trying to do seriously. I mean, I've interviewed a lot of people on this show, but a few things that stood out to me first, having trained athletes, and then the general population saying, I want to be trained like that right there. That's great evidence that there is a gap and made me wonder, you know, why is that right? And maybe we could explore that a little more. But you also said it's the way we're intended to move. And the word athlete as an identity is very important to people. I found working with clients, men and women, but especially women, when we use that word, I'm like, you are an athlete like, No, I'm not. Yes, you are. And look how far we've come using the principles of an athlete of training and progression and performance and fueling yourself all these positive things that you want to build and not, you know, do the restriction and all the other things that the industry talks about. And then you said there's still a giant chasm, and it's getting bigger. So let's just explore that for a second. I know, we'll get into the topic, but why is it getting bigger? Why is the evidence based stuff not as accessible as it needs to be? Well, I think
Megan Dahlman 06:39
two things are happening right now. I think we have the people who are interested in health are starting to really dig deep. We're getting more and more studies that are coming out all the time. We're starting to get this whole like section of the population that's really interested in like biohacking methods and, you know, kind of those little final one to 2% tweaks. And that starts to be really noisy, especially in the social media space because it catches a lot of attention. And then at the same time, we have the opposite end of the spectrum where the general population America is getting unhealthier and unhealthier. And I think the obesity rates right now in America is staggering. I think we're pushing 50% not just being overweight, but literally obesity. And so these two things are happening. And it's just this, like people are getting the Healthy People are getting so dialed in healthy, like it's almost obsessive. And the unhealthy people are getting even unhealthier. And so there's such a big gap that nobody's like, when the unhealthy people are looking at what you need to do healthy to be healthier. That's what they're seeing. They're seeing the biohackers that are working on that final 1% tweak, like cold plunging is not going to solve my health issue.
Philip Pape 08:08
Red light therapy, right. And
Megan Dahlman 08:10
it's like, and so then they try those biohacking things. And it's like, Well, that didn't work. Because that was so extreme and such this giant leap from where their life looks like today. You know what I mean?
Philip Pape 08:23
Yeah, no, that's a great way to put it. I think of food in that context as well, where you're not even eating whole foods or enough protein, and you're worried about grass fed beef, wagyu, beef, whatever it's like, just just get there from where you are today. And it'll be a huge improvement a step change. Okay, so now one of the things that we're going to talk about today, which is belly fat, has has been in the space for a long time as one of those topics that I don't know, maybe it could be click Beatty, or associated with the, the the training programs related to you know, crunches and all sorts of crazy 1% solutions that you just talked about. Yeah, so we want to take a nuanced approach based on the evidence, but also that's accessible to everyone listening. Before we do, why is this even a topic?
Megan Dahlman 09:10
I think because it is so as statically annoying, for lack of a better term. There's obviously all of the health related issues with carrying excess body fat around your midsection. We know that having what's called visceral fat, especially the fat that is kind of intertwined around your organs, that is extremely unhealthy for your body, your chances of having heart disease and diabetes like they just go through the roof and all of these metabolic syndromes when you have visceral fat, that type of fat that just gets lodged inside of your gut and inside of your torso. It's it's more dangerous than the kind of fat that's more on your limbs. However it in addition into that, I have to say that the belly fat this, this excess fat around the midsection, especially women, but I think men too, we have always had this discomfort with the way that our midsection looks. There's this like obsession with having a nice trim, Veldt figure, you know, where we have a beautiful waist. And so anytime we feel like we're outside of that, where we feel like we're squishy or, or wide or thick around the midsection, we feel like we're not falling into the aesthetic norms of our culture. And that really aggravates us and makes us lose a lot of confidence in our body. And so whenever I'm helping coach, people through this, it's like, let's really make sure that your intentions moving forward are more based on getting you as healthy and functionally fit as possible. And then we'll let the aesthetics fall where they lie. Because I find that when people come at it from it from an angle of I just want to see my abs or I just want to look good. It's a motivation that doesn't very often points you in the wrong direction, you kind of end up feeling like willing to do whatever it takes. And that tends to lead you down an unhealthy route. So if we can be pointed in the direction of like, okay, let me approach chat, like taking care of his belly fat from it, from the healthiest aspect possible from coming about it from as, as healthy as I can and get as healthy and fit as possible, and then let the aesthetics fall, where they live, you're gonna have a much better time and and get the results you really want and without damaging your body in the process.
Philip Pape 11:55
Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. Because the athletic figure many people are going for is an outcome of many, many other things that it may not be a one to one root cause or, you know, proximal, cause. It's funny, because I've just recently recorded an episode of mine coming out soon called, why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked. And it's a it's just a real honest conversation in my mind about my own fluffiness and belly fat as I gain weight, but I'm doing it on purpose. I know that the final outcome once I lose fat later on will reveal you're working out. But I'm not. I don't care. Because I'd rather get strong right now. And I know it'll pay off just just somewhat tangential. And from a male's perspective, we do have those insecurities as well. Yeah,
Megan Dahlman 12:39
yeah. And it really is that mindset shift and be like, what do I really care about in the long run? Like maybe right? On the surface, I say that I really care about, you know, having a really slim figure or having visible abs. But on the in the hole, if I zoom out and say like, what do I really want for my body? Where do I want my body in five years, 10 years, 20 years, do I want to have a body that has zero back and hip pain that I can say I have extremely dense bones through my spine, I don't have to worry about disc issues or functional issues, I can be fit and active and move like an athlete well into my 70s and 80s. I'm gonna raise my hand at that all day long, and say that that is a higher priority to me, then being able to look great in a swimsuit. And I know I have to just trust that in the back of my head, me pursuing that long term outcome is also going to achieve these more surface level goals that I also have for my aesthetics, and be okay with that. And it just might take a little slower. And like you said, you might have a little fluff in the moment, when you're doing it the right way. Sometimes it it doesn't happen the way we want it to.
Philip Pape 13:59
It's true. It depends on how much of that you want to accept during the various cycles of getting there. Everybody's everybody's body is different. genetics are different, where you lose fat first or not. Changes, you know, men versus women especially. And of course, the place that we gain fat first, and it comes off last as the place we least want it to be. And when people ask about that, usually my response is it's probably just a it's probably just booty call it catch 22 And that that's where you've been seeing it your whole life because you're prone to gaining the fat there. So let's let's talk about we do we do need to dress somewhat of the belly fat piece itself. And what causes that since we know there is a health component not just an aesthetic component, especially the hormonal changes. I want to get into that either during Peri and post menopause or just in general. Tell us about the connection.
Megan Dahlman 14:50
So as you enter perimenopause and then in those postmenopausal years, really what's going on as your estrogen production is declining. Your razors simply not producing as much estrogen. There's other hormones involved too. Even in women, there's the progesterone and testosterone. And then also in men as as men age, there's less testosterone production. But we're kind of talking mostly about the perimenopause and menopausal belly fat. Estrogen, I like to call it the magical hormone, it does so many things in your body, it maintains muscle mass, like it keeps, it's like a little protector and shield around muscle mass loss it, it manages your hunger, it actually is an appetite suppressant and natural appetite suppressant. Estrogen actually helps provide energy and as a mood booster. So your motivation is often a lot higher during the time of the month, when you have high levels of estrogen, you're more likely to want to get out there and get after it, versus like hunker down and not really do much. Estrogen also keeps inflammation at bay, it's an anti inflammatory. So when we see of, when we look at it like that, like, okay, these are all the wonderful things that estrogen does. Now, we know on the flip side, when your body stops producing estrogen, all of these things now start to become a problem, we start to lose muscle mass, we have to work a little harder to maintain and even build muscle mass, our hunger cues start to get all out of whack, we tend to be a little bit more hungry throughout the day, we don't have as high of a mood or motivation if feels like a struggle, we don't have as much energy, we tend to be a little bit more inflamed throughout our body. So we might have some joint pain and achiness due to that inflammation, or maybe excess bloating and just discomfort, which can impact our desire to want to exercise. So all of these things can really be related to that estrogen lack of estrogen production. And then when you also have that estrogen being a little bit more dominant at any given point than progesterone, that can also be a problem, you've probably heard of estrogen dominance, where, yeah, your estrogen is declining in production, but it's also like way out of balance with the other hormones. So all of these things are just kind of like, all out of whack. And now you realize, in my 20s, and in my early 30s, all of these things were so easy, I could exercise and I could see results pretty quickly. Now we have an environment where everything is just a little bit more challenging. And it can make that belly fat situation far more challenging. And we're gonna get into, you know, what we can do for the belly fat. But all of those things that I mentioned, can all point back to an increase in fat storage around the belly region,
Philip Pape 17:57
that alone is a fantastic thing to understand. For women, when it comes to these imbalances. What do we know the mechanism by which fat stored in the abdomen increases due to that,
Megan Dahlman 18:07
we tend to have more of those Alpha receptors of estrogen and those sex hormones in the belly fat region. And so when your hormones are a little bit off kilter, those fat storage cells in the fat area in the belly area tend to be a little bit more sensitive, and they kind of want to hold on to that a little quicker, and release it last. So it's kind of that area. And Women also tend to have those in the tricep region. And in the thigh region, we have a lot of those receptors for that type of hormone fat distribution. So those kind of get a little bit more sensitive when your estrogen levels are not as high.
Philip Pape 19:01
Okay, the triceps I wasn't aware of, but I could I could picture that happening in older women. You know, when you see that visually, what about is there any impact on thyroid or metabolic rate independent of the factory metabolisms affected by all the other things you mentioned? Yeah.
Megan Dahlman 19:17
I mean, it's, it's tangential, you know, it kind of goes side by side with that. A lot of women going through perimenopause and menopause might not have thyroid issues at all. Many of them that is one of the symptoms of menopause is seeing a change in those thyroid hormone production. So that's where working with your doctor and getting those blood tests taken and seeing your thyroid hormone levels, in connection with those other hormonal levels can be really helpful. But not always. So it's yes or no. Yeah,
Philip Pape 19:50
it's complicated. Yeah, as always, it's kind of complicated. So you posted a real recently on Instagram about four strategies for reducing belly If and of course we know how short form video is, maybe there's six maybe there's a you know, the you may have more than four and your feel free to we can add to the list. But it was about the science behind belly fat accumulation women over 40 we're talking about. And I wanted to start with, instead of getting into the four things, are there any other myths or misconceptions on this topic that people will say, maybe the one percenters or even just falsehoods about reducing belly fat before we get into the real things at work,
Megan Dahlman 20:28
I've come up with three, there are three big things when it comes to the belly fat is first and foremost is like spot training, saying, Okay, I have an extra accumulation of fat in my belly region. So give me all of the ab exercises that I can possibly find. And you can spot strengthen, but you cannot spot reduce. So you can't do exercises for one specific region on your body and expect the fat distribution in that region to decrease. However, if you do a bunch of exercises for those particular muscles, those muscles will get stronger. That's how they work. So keeping that in mind, like that is a big misconception, I have a really popular core training program, just a simple like five day core tune up and I get a lot of people signing up for it being like, this is really great, I've got a bunch of fat to lose in my midsection, it's like way, way, way, way Wait, this is good for that in the long run, but for a different reason, I don't want you to go into it thinking that the intention of this core training program is to get rid of the fat around your belly, it doesn't work like that. So spot training is kind of the the first thing and hold on.
Philip Pape 21:41
And a different reason I'm gonna guess is that by having the extra muscle definition, you can reveal it at a higher body fat later on correct.
Megan Dahlman 21:48
And by having a stronger stable core, in the long run, you're going to be able to train with greater capacity and build that muscle over the rest of your body. So, so yet it it's so foundational to everything else you're going to want to try to accomplish. So the second misconception is just straight up calorie reduction. Like I've got excess fat on my body, I gotta just keep cutting, cutting, cutting calories back back back, then unfortunately, there's a lot of women out there that are only consuming eight or 900 calories a day. And now we have reduced metabolic rate. We have muscles that are shrinking because of it. And it's this like backwards effect. And you get to this point where now I'm spot training really hard on my abs. Now I'm cutting calories like crazy. Why is this not working? Let me add in cardio. That's the other misconception. The third one, the third one, so adding more cardio. So that's kind of our go to in our brain of like I have fat to lose. So I better like ramp up my cardio
Philip Pape 23:00
and just cut that energy into that that restricted state. Yeah, exactly. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this guest interview on Wits & Weights. If you're finding it valuable, you can get a bonus conversation we recorded. If you're on our email list, just go to wits & weights.com/bonus or click the link in the show notes. Insiders on our email list will get a link to the bonus conversation where my guest will give you the exact steps to take related to one of the topics in today's episode. Again, these conversations are only available if you're on our free email list to get the bonus exclusive content with today's guest. Just go to wits & weights.com/bonus, or click the link in the show notes. Now back to the show. Okay, so that's what doesn't work. Let's go over the four things you talked about maybe in the order you mentioned them. I don't know if that's important if the order matters, but the first one was sleep or do you want to reveal these the first one sleep so?
Megan Dahlman 23:59
Yeah. So I think it really does help understanding that what's going on with the belly fat is so hormonal II related. And when you understand that you can say okay, I can do a little bit more thorough approach to attack it. Because we don't in our brains, we have a hard time understanding that a lack of sleep will impact our belly fat, like it doesn't make sense. It's hard for us to make that connection. Like if I get a good night's sleep. How is that gonna reduce my belly fat, like that doesn't like directly relate, but it does. Because when you lack sleep, if you're sleep deprived, your body thinks that it's so stressed out and it creates more cortisol and creates this more inflammatory environment. Especially when you have when your body's bathing in cortisol. It loves to hold on to especially belly fat. Those belly fat receptors are just like really prime to Hold on to that visceral type of fat. So sleep is really, really important. The likelihood of someone who gets excellent sleep, and also has a significant amount of belly fat is, is really low likelihood. So often, if you look at someone who has a lot of belly fat, most of the time they're very poor sleep, or they might have sleep apnea, they might have sleep disturbances like that, or really bad sleep hygiene. And they're very closely related. So sleep is number one, is it getting the point where you can get between six to eight hours of sleep a night? And yes, hormones do impact your quality of sleep. And I know a lot of women going through midlife feel like I, this feels so out of my control, I hear what you're saying, but I don't feel like I can get better sleep. The other things that I'm going to mention, we'll circle back and improve your sleep. So even if you feel like I'm doing all the sleep hygiene stuff, I'm still not sleeping well. I'm trying I really am. These other things will improve your sleep quality, too. So sleep is absolutely first. I agree. And
Philip Pape 26:11
I, there was a study, I've referenced it in the past, I forgot the details of it. But they took two groups, one that was sleep restricted, like five or five and a half hours, the other had eight hours. And they found two different things. One was when they were in a ad libitum like calorie surplus. The group that was sleep deprived, gained more belly fat, yeah, or I'm sorry, isocaloric. So both groups had the same calories, but they were gaining the group that had the sleep deprivation gained more of that fat in their belly. Yep, correlated with what you're saying. And then secondly, when you are allowed to just eat whatever you get a lot hungrier when you have less sleep, so then you gain more weight. So that's just another negative, there's many negatives of poor sleep. We know that sounds good. Okay, they're
Megan Dahlman 26:49
all intertwined that sleep. The second one is stress, stress management. So usually, when I mentioned this, someone will say there's so many things in my life that caused me stress that feel out of my control, and I really can't, I can't get rid of these things. Whether it's, you know, you're a caretaker for other family members, like that is a burden on your life. That could be very stressful, and it's something that you are called to do, like, that's what you have to do. So it's not about getting rid of stresses, sure, if there are things in your life that you can eliminate, like, let's get rid of those like, like leave for work 10 minutes earlier. So you stop dealing with the traffic stress, you know, like, let's, those little things can help. But it's more about how you manage your stress. When your stress is going unchecked. Your body is constantly in this fight or flight response. It's in that sympathetic nervous system environment where it's constantly pumping out those stress hormones, once again, that cortisol, high levels of adrenaline, which adrenaline, which directly impacts your ability to sleep, if you're going to bed stressed, your body is in a fight or flight response. It's in this like geared up charged up state, and it's going to impact your sleep. So I always say, let's come up with two, maybe three things that you can do each day to just manage your stress. It doesn't mean that you have to try to eliminate all your stress, we're just going to figure out how to manage it. Whether you feel like you need to or not. Those things should be constant every day, whether or not you're stressed out so that when you hit a season of life, that's super stressful. You already have these stress management mechanisms happening routinely in your day. You're like I got this, I already have a way to manage my stress system. Great ways to do this is getting up a few minutes earlier and just journaling in the morning or reading or praying or three thinking whatever it might be for you. It could be every afternoon I close my computer, I make a cup of tea and I read my book and I take a nap. I'm a Napper. And then every evening, I go for about a 20 or 30 minute walk. It's not for fitness. It's for stress. So in my normal life, there's three things I do every single day for stress management, whether or not I actually feel stressed out. So that's what I recommend for people is just like always having these things in your life that just keep your stress levels like at a manageable level.
Philip Pape 29:36
Yeah, I love that. We recently did an episode about stress and ask the community what are all your examples and it's, it's beautiful, how many different things people have, whether it's like playing an instrument or walking on the beach, you know? And of course, those of us who lift lifting is an acute stressor that reduces chronic stress as well. Yeah. Especially apparently when done in the morning, which is an interesting thing. It kind of burns down some of that cortisol So great ideas totally agree, I think of the idea of doing something every day consistently, not just because now I'm stressed, let me do this thing, which can be stressful to be like, I need to do something to reduce stress can help. And then since you talked about sleep, I don't know if you're gonna mention this, but more stress can cause an interruption in your sleeping or vice versa. Yep,
Megan Dahlman 30:19
exactly. Yeah, they really go hand in hand. And then of course, that leads us to the next one. Nutrition. Obviously, that plays a role in your belly fat. And the most important things when it comes to having an environment in your body that releases those excess body fat stores and brings you to a good body composition is having good amounts of protein. I think we're all protein fans around here. And reducing those sugars, processed carbs, processed foods in general. So I always like to attack nutrition from a what can we add in more of mentality? Like, what can we wait? Yeah, additive mentality. So what can we put on your plate like more and more and more and more, it, it's such an easier way that will start to kind of crowd out the unhealthy foods. So especially women in midlife, this is the number one thing that most women are not getting enough of his protein. And whenever I mentioned, how much a good ideal amount of protein is for them, their jaw always drops to the floor. And they're like, but I'm not a bodybuilder, I'm like, but you want to keep muscle on your body. Trust me, I know. And so usually, for my goal with women is like, let's, let's just establish a baseline, let's just get a good idea of kind of how much you're eating. Now. I think, on average, most women I work with are kind of around the 10 grams of protein per meal mark, you know, they'll have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Or they'll have a hard a hard boiled egg. Or they'll have you know, something that kind of
Philip Pape 32:06
one slice of meat on there.
Megan Dahlman 32:09
Yeah, or they'll have like a bowl of cereal that's like protein that you know, a Special K protein, like, right, right? Oh, wait a second, that has six grams protein,
Philip Pape 32:18
there has to be more protein. And if you had a slice of bread, yes. Cereal? Yeah,
Megan Dahlman 32:24
it's like, okay, let's just get a good sense of like where your protein is at now. And then what can we do to add a little bit more in and then just gradually over time, that way, we're not going from, you know, you're used to eating 30 grams of protein a day. And we're suddenly to like trying to get over 100 grams of protein that can feel like a huge leap. Like, let's just slowly ratchet it up, adding a little bit more kind of bringing in a higher quality of looking for I'm, I'm already having Yoker, how can I switch from having like regular yogurt to Greek yogurt that can double it just like that. So, so little tweaks of things that you're already eating, what can I do to what I'm already eating to boost that amount of protein, naturally, so I'm getting close to that 100 grams a day mark. For a lot of women, that's a great threshold to try to get to. Man, if I could get women eating, you know, one gram of protein for how much they weigh or their target weight, that would be amazing, it would make huge difference. That's the stretch goal. Yeah, on their body. But that can feel like a big leap. And that's okay, I understand that. So just figuring out where you're at now and how to just grow that and then the other side of the plate, produce loaded up with produce as much as you can. And that gives you that fiber that helps slow down your digestion, it just helps your body with inflammation, all the things so one really simple hack that I love on the nutrition side is just think eat your pros. Eat your pros. Every meal, look down at your plate, see protein produce protein produce, like if you can just operate throughout your life.
Philip Pape 34:02
Oh, that's where that comes from. Okay, I hadn't looked into that. I thought the pro just meant protein now yet protein and produce good, okay,
Megan Dahlman 34:09
keeps it so simple. You know, it makes sense. You're not like counting, you know, you're not having to like track things like you could go to a restaurant, you can go to a buffet, you can go find yourself in all these challenging eating environments and say like, where's the protein? Where's the produce? If it's from the produce department, like that counts? Like, I don't care if it's fruit or vegetables, like just eat it? This is good. Like, yeah, it's so it's a great way to just say, I know that if on my plate, I see protein here and I see produce here. I'm doing a pretty good job.
Philip Pape 34:41
And if you go to the grocery store, it starts with produce, then it's usually the meat department. Yeah, then it's usually dairy and eggs, and that is all your protein right there. Outside of greens and stuff like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I love it. I don't know. I could ask a million questions about nutrition because that's like 90% of what we talk about here and I know we'll talk about it on your show as well. All. But two things come to mind. It sounds like you favor a more maybe intuitive and less track approach and maybe wrong because maybe there's different levels, depending on the clients you work with. So maybe address that. And then the second thing is vegetarians and vegans. What are what are your advice for them? Yeah, so
Megan Dahlman 35:16
the first part, I always recommend for women to come into it by starting as simple as possible. Like, most people are coming from a place of like, I'm so haphazard. With my eating, I'm starting at like scratch here. So jumping straight to like more challenging, eating skills, like like tracking and counting calories. And counting macros is pretty advanced, like when you're starting from scratch. So I say, let's just start with the how of eating, how to put protein on your plate, how to put produce on your plate, how to eat slowly, how to hydrate, how to pay attention to how food makes you feel, we have to start there, rather than jumping to more advanced skills. And for a lot of people, that's enough, that gets them to a place where they're really healthy, they feel great. They feel like it's not like taking over their life, and they're getting the results that they want. And so if that's the case, it's like, that's awesome. Like, there's no reason to do it any harder than that. Occasionally, if you're really consistent with the basics, and feel like you do need to dial it up a little bit more, you're not getting the results that you want. It's like great, let's explore those slightly more challenging things. And that's where we can bring in the tracking. There's lots of ways that we can track that are pretty simple, like we can just track of, did I have protein today? Did I have a splurge today, and I like to just use like simple checkmarks to start with, of like, we don't need to like measure numbers yet. Let's just have an awareness tool first. Because you might be splurging five days, five times a day and not realizing it. Let's start with that. Like, can we get your splurge isn't a splurge would be anything outside of like the protein produce good healthy fats, good whole grains, anything that lands outside of that, just put an X on your chart? How many x's are you getting a day, you know, if Can we somehow get that down to mostly checkmarks and just 1x. Awesome. And maybe that'll get you the results that you want without ever having to count anything. So I always say let's start with the lowest common denominator. See if that works first, before we go to something a little bit more tricky. So then talking towards the vegetarian vegan side of things, the protein and produce still works is just a lot of your protein is going to be also produce, which is great enough. My recommendation for more plant based eaters is making sure that well understanding that the protein that comes from plants is most often not complete, doesn't have all those nine essential amino acids that your body needs is the building blocks. So when you're looking at your produce, or your protein that goes on your plate, I say pick two. So to keep it really simple, if you're going to put beans in that meal as your protein also add nuts and seeds, if you're going to have lentils also have peas, if you're going to have tofu also add quinoa, so that you've got like two sources of protein on your plate, rather than just one because if you do eat animal products, you can get plenty of protein and all the essential amino acids you need from just the one source of protein. But if you're a more vegetarian or vegan, you're probably going to be able to cover your bases if you have to plant based protein sources on your plate. That makes sense.
Philip Pape 38:57
Rice and beans. Yes. It's funny because I agree. And that's that's often my advice as well. And the quantity is harder a little bit harder sometimes because now you're competing with fats and carbs, foods. But I have a colleague, he's a coach, he's he's a plant based. He's an omnivore, but he prefers a more plant centric diet. And he has some debates with me and others friendly debates about the complete amino acid thing because he'll show like, even just a very sparse plant diet, you can still get your complete amino acids he likes to show like through all the data, bla bla bla, but we have arguments about that. It's fine. I just wanted to mention that
Megan Dahlman 39:32
it's really tricky to do like that's, you got to really know your stuff. Like you have to really know like, this plant source has these ones. And then this has these ones and then educated Yeah, you have to really be educated and which is cool if you want to nerd out on that stuff. Like go for it. But for the average individual is really challenging. It's really tricky. Yeah. So
Philip Pape 39:54
let's get to the fourth one, which is my favorite. What is that strength
Megan Dahlman 39:58
training so Strength training. So when it comes to belly fat, this is where your brains like, oh, well, let me just do the things that's going to burn the most calories. Well, okay, yes, makes sense. But what ultimately what is the thing that will burn the most calories, and it's anything that's going to put muscle on your frame. Because that is a more thorough approach to having a body that has a faster metabolic rate. And so if you can prioritize strength building or muscle building work, whether that's coming from weightlifting, or using your own body as resistance, I always recommend starting with that start with just bodyweight only work first so that you know how to move and control your body without putting things in your hands and having to figure multiple stuff out at the same time. A lot of people don't think that bodyweight stuff is strength training, like Well think about how heavy your body is you're pushing and pulling that around. That's resistance. Megan,
Philip Pape 41:03
you don't have to convince me I just did leg races this morning. Speaking of vectors that are tough, yeah. Oh,
Megan Dahlman 41:11
man. Oh, yeah. So we can do a really thorough, highly effective resistance training workout without any equipment. So but just something that keeps you in, you know, it's a good strength building routine, and muscle building routine, if it kind of stays in the, like six to 12 repetition range. And if we're, if we're getting significantly outside of that, like six to 12 repetition range, now we're kind of moving a little bit more in the stamina side, it's not going to create as much of that hypertrophy in your muscles. So I always say, let's do the bodyweight only wait, like work first, let's get confident with those movements. And then let's see how once you have the confidence, let's see what we can do to keep ratcheting up the load so that you keep staying as you're getting stronger, you keep staying in that six to 12 repetitions range, which, honestly, for those of us that strength train a lot. That's actually a pretty wide range. I don't know about you, but a workout that has 12 reps, feels very different to me than a workout that has six reps. And to be honest, like, I'd rather do the workout with the six reps.
Philip Pape 42:28
I agree. If people find that out, they do. They're like, Oh, you know, I mean, I'm not just constantly doing all these reps in the gym. No, you're not. It's actually a little bit more fun sometimes. Yeah,
Megan Dahlman 42:36
yeah, I love the heavy, the heavy weight, heavier, low reps, heavy loads is my favorite kind of weight training.
Philip Pape 42:43
It's fun. It is definitely fun. Ya know, I like that six to 12. You know, I've used everything from like, you know, four to six on the strength side to up to 12. And then beyond that, it depends if you have certain bodybuilding programming and specialized stuff you're doing that you did a great episode about this recently, I wanted to mention for the listeners, so you should definitely subscribe to your podcast, self care simplified, because it wasn't long ago, although probably a couple months behind when this comes out. That was about strength training, how to get started, you know how to get started for women, you talked about body weight, and then dumbbells and things. So check that out. In the interest of time, I want listeners to know what we're gonna do. Outside of this episode, for those on our email list, you're gonna get a bonus episode that Megan and I are going to do about the best core exercises themselves. So we're gonna save that for that. But like I asked all my guests before we end up if Is there a question that you wish I asked? What is your answer?
Megan Dahlman 43:37
You know, I think a great question, especially when we're talking about making changes to belly fat is when can you expect to see results? I think this is, you know, you're starting to like, implement the strategies and you're like, Okay, when can I expect to see results? I think most of us want to see them right now. And I think it's really helpful to have a good understanding of when results actually happen. And I like to go with my rule of threes. So usually, once you start doing or implementing a new habit consistently, usually it takes three weeks to feel the benefits of that new habit. So if you're starting a good core training program, usually it takes three weeks to feel your core functioning differently than it had been before. Three months is kind of the next benchmark at three months of consistently doing a good habit and I keep using that word consistent. Because you just need to you need to keep showing up and typically bringing yourself to the table at three months is usually when those visible results really float to the surface. Usually around that three month mark is when you're like okay, I can actually see I can see my muscle because now I can see the fat distribution changing my body composition changing. Most people like I want to see I want those visible results at the three week mark, it's like, well, maybe. But often No, if you don't see anything yet three weeks, like, you're on track. You're, you're not, you're not doing anything wrong. Like, let's make sure you're feeling a difference. Like that's a great indication that you're on the right track. Usually, at the three month mark is when people are like, okay, I can actually, my pants are fitting looser around my midsection. And that's to say, you know, not to say that you won't get some of those results earlier. But I like to give people that really realistic timeline expectation, because it's like, don't judge something in the first three weeks, please, like just give it time to settle in and work for you. And then let's make sure that by three weeks, you're starting to feel your body improve. And then around three months, we should be seeing some visible changes, it's probably not going to be this giant change. We're all about no quick fixes around here. But that's a really good benchmark to aim for. And I find that that's really helpful mentally when you're embarking on something that's hard. I
Philip Pape 46:22
love that. Yeah, three weeks to feel three weeks to see the muscles, or three months to see if
Megan Dahlman 46:27
there is a third benchmark. And I'm always hesitant to mention this one. But it's actually wager three years. Yeah, actually, okay. Three years is when it's now your identity. It usually takes someone of showing up consistently and making their fitness and nutrition a priority, where there's something that happens around the three year mark, where it now is so ingrained in who they are, that they don't have to think about it anymore. It's just part of their life. So it's so habitual. And so I get a lot of women and men that I work with, you know, in the first year where they're like, Why is this still so hard for me to show? Why do I still need accountability? Why do I still need to be like, fighting to make this a priority in my life? And I'm like, you're on track. Like, you haven't reached that three year mark. You know, you're you're still in that baby phase of like, your, your will get there. Right around that three year mark. And I have time and time again. I asked people I work with when they've been at it for three or four years and like, can you imagine your life without this? Like, oh, gosh, no, like, I can't even imagine not doing this. Exactly.
Philip Pape 47:35
Oh, I love that. So three weeks to feel three months to see and three years to be
Megan Dahlman 47:40
Oh, that's good. Oh, there you go.
Philip Pape 47:43
I didn't know I don't know if you're gonna say that another like that'll fit. Become that athlete that we are. That is core to identity and that we are now turning into love it. Okay, Megan, where can people learn more about you and your work? Definitely
Megan Dahlman 47:57
check out my podcast self care simplified. So we are releasing two episodes a week Philip, you're going to be on the show same week that this goes live, which will be really cool. So come check that out. I love to break things down in really, really simple ways. Make them super approachable. And then definitely over on Instagram. I'm there every day multiple times a day. You can find me at Meghan, Dolman, just my name. Love to come say hi.
Philip Pape 48:23
Perfect. I'll throw those in the show notes. As always. This was awesome. Again, we're gonna do a little mini episode that people can catch up there on the email list. And thank you again for coming on the show.
Megan Dahlman 48:33
Thank you for having me, Philip. This has been definitely
Philip Pape 48:37
thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 148: Q&A - Full-Body vs. Split Routine, Faster Recovery, and Hybrid Training (Lifting + Cardio)
Which is better, full-body training or body part splits? How can you recover faster between workouts, especially when doing a lot of high-intensity cardio? How can you balance lifting and cardio for a hybrid training approach to get the most out of both? Philip is answering these three questions on today’s episode.
Which is better, full-body training or body part splits? How can you recover faster between workouts, especially when doing a lot of high-intensity cardio? How can you balance lifting and cardio for a hybrid training approach to get the most out of both?
Philip (@witsandweights) is answering these three questions on today’s episode.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
3:46 Should I do full-body or target areas daily for lifting or strength training?
10:11 Do you have any advice to improve recovery so I can do a third workout within a week?
28:27 How do I balance resistance training and cardio?
38:50 Outro
Episode resources:
Episode summary:
Philip takes listeners through an enlightening journey to uncover the secrets of maximizing fitness gains, shedding light on the perennial debate between full-body workouts and targeted body part splits, providing insights tailored to different experience levels. For those embarking on their strength training journey, he outlines the benefits of full-body sessions, emphasizing their efficiency in promoting rapid strength gains. Conversely, Philip explains that split routines offer the volume necessary for experienced lifters to break through plateaus and continue progressing.
But what about when the weights are down and the sneakers are tucked away? Recovery, Philip stresses, is not a one-size-fits-all solution. The podcast delves into innovative recovery tactics, addressing even those with the most hectic of schedules. Philipdiscusses the importance of aligning recovery tactics with individual fitness goals and provides practical tips for maintaining fitness on the go, highlighting nutritional hacks and active recovery strategies.
The conversation shifts to a conundrum faced by many gym enthusiasts: the balance between maintaining muscle mass and improving cardiovascular health. Philip breaks down strategies that allow for this delicate balance, such as the use of adjustable dumbbells and microplates, and how to integrate cardio into your regimen without compromising muscle gains. The episode explores the nuances of workout alignment with personal aspirations, be it muscle building, fat loss, or marathon preparation.
Philip also answers questions from the fitness community, emphasizing personalized training plans that align with individual goals and recovery needs. He offers insights on proper nutrition, sufficient protein intake, the impact of fat loss phases on recovery, and the importance of hydration and sleep. He provides actionable advice for truck drivers with limited options, recommending portable high-protein snacks and strategies for improving sleep in challenging conditions.
Listeners learn about the versatility of strength training with adjustable dumbbells, particularly for those with limited gym access, and the importance of technique in maximizing muscle and strength gains. Philip also touches on the importance of varying workout intensities to aid muscle recovery and overall well-being.
In summary, this episode of Whits and Weights presents a comprehensive guide for anyone looking to refine their fitness regimen for optimal results. Philip’s expert advice, combined with practical strategies and personalized insights, offers listeners the tools to revolutionize their training regime and unlock their best bodies through custom workout strategies.
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
Which is better full body training or body part splits? How can you recover faster between workouts? Especially when doing a lot of high intensity cardio? How can you balance lifting and cardio for a hybrid training approach? To get the most out of both? I'm answering these three questions on today's episode.
Philip Pape 00:20
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. In our last episode 147 A brand new way to workout at home with Josh York, you learn about a company called gym guys, and it's unique in home training model, you'll learn about Josh's intense personal workout and health regimen and how he balances everything. His views on the fitness industry and some practical strategies for training, building muscle and optimizing your fitness. Today for episode 148. We are answering three questions in a q&a questions from the community about training, splits, recovery, and balancing lifting and cardio. And I pulled them together from three different sources, one from Instagram, one from a voice message on our families page and one from Facebook. Now it's been a while since we did a q&a, mainly because we do them all the time in the Wits & Weights Facebook group with our weekly ask Phillip thread. So I wanted to take a quick moment of course and mentioned that yes, we do have a Facebook community that's totally free. Where we do a weekly live q&a. We do free live workshops, lifting form checks, you can post questions and get very positive supportive answers at all times. Just click the link in the show notes to join the Wits & Weights Facebook group and check us out see what it's all about. We'd love to have you. Now before we get to the q&a, I did want to share a couple of fresh five star reviews from Apple so that you can hear directly from listeners. These are very short. The first one is from neuron Tillman. Thanks for leading with value. I love the fact that you give so much valuable information, your transparency is refreshing. Thanks for being so passionate. And he was talking about transparency in the context of the episode I did with the five foolproof strategies for hitting your macros. And one of those I suggested that you use AI tools to give you a meal plan, even though I'm a nutrition coach, and I think that's what he was talking about. Now the second review from T dawg 117, I needed this inspiration. It's a new year. And I'm always looking for more advice on what to do in the gym, and how to be healthier. This podcast does exactly that. I'm so glad I found this. And I will be following from now on. Thank you. Thank you very much for the follow. And by the way, anyone who's listening right now, if you do love this show, the best thing you can do for me is follow the show by following me and click the Follow or subscribe button in Apple, it's called follow. And that will ensure that you get future episodes you get notified. It also though, helps the algorithm the ranking algorithm so that people can find the show is based not just on downloads, but also follows. So that would be very helpful. If you liked the show already. And you'd like to listen to it. Go ahead and click follow. Alright, now let's get to those three questions again, one from Instagram. That's the first one. You can send me a message or a question anytime on Instagram at Wits & Weights. I love to chat with folks and just audio messages, video of text, whatever. All right, this is from AP Cal, MCIL requestion. Lifting better to do full body or target areas each day. All right, she's asking the age old question of should I do three full body sessions each week that involve upper and lower movements in every session and tend to be on the longer side? Or should I split those into body parts or upper lower or push pull leg splits across four, five or even six days a week in a split routine? So let's just break it down at a very high level. What are the differences? full body workouts you have? You're doing upper and lower body movements every session now they may be the same movements are very similar. Like you may like in starting strength where you're squatting every session, you're doing a presser benchpress and you're doing a deadlift. And so this gives you frequency. This gives you significant frequency. You're going three times a week and doing the same movements rather than say once a week on a typical split or maybe twice indirectly. And for a new lifter even an early intermediate. This is fantastic for making progress because you can increase the weight on the bar each session and just push push push and make significant and serious strength gains. very quickly. The other thing is it's it's time efficient in the sense that it's fewer days per week even, even though the sessions might be a little bit longer. So if you're commuting to the gym, and you're trying to just get a lot done for your time, and you're using big compound lifts, it's very time efficient. Now, split routines where you're doing four or five, or even six days a week, you get more volume during the week, this is often needed when you're an elite, intermediate or advanced trainee, because you can no longer progress. If you you know, if you went three days a week, you would just kill yourself, you wouldn't be able to recover, you wouldn't be able to progress. So we, we split it up where you say you're only squatting one of those four days, but then you might be dead lifting or doing other leg movements, another of those four days. So you get more volume, over four or five or six days, because the sessions are a little bit shorter, but now you're doing more sessions. And you could still have frequency with indirect targeting of muscle groups, right? Like you can, you can bench press one day, and close grip bench press a different day where you're focused on triceps, both cases, you're also hitting the chest. So the recovery is also an issue here. Because, yeah, the frequency may be less, but you also need that extra recovery, because you can't advance as quickly as a beginner, right, especially for things like low back recovery and things like that. Now, given your experience, you might already have a good sense of what works for your body in terms of volume and recovery. But we did have a follow up conversation and you mentioned that you're self taught, and I could sense a little bit of a lack of confidence of has what you've been doing, then the best thing for you. So either you already have solid form and technique, or even green some bad habits over the years that need to be unlearned. Either way, here's my recommendation, try a simple Full Body program, something like starting strength, which I talked about how to pick a program way back in the archives in episode two, episode two, and I go back and listen to those early episodes. And I cringe because I like, you know, I feel like I've grown a lot since then as a communicator, however, the content is still solid, I still stand by it. And I think you'll learn a lot about my thinking of the very basics here of what you can incorporate as a beginner. And even if you've been training for 1015 years, and you have so so called bad habits, you may still be a beginner when it comes to proper progressive overload and strength training. So try a three day program like starting strength where you squat press, or bench and deadlift, every session, focus on improving that form, but also making some serious strength gains before you switch to a split. Then when you're ready for a split, I like something like a classic four day upper lower split for most intermediate lifters where, for example, very simple bench on Monday, squat on Tuesday, press on Thursday, deadlift on Friday, and then you have like three or four movements after those big lifts that include, you know, some of the less stressful compound lifts like RDLs, for example, or incline dumbbell presses and so on. And then maybe some isolation work, you know, if you're working on your biceps or shoulders, lateral raises, calf raises, things like that. And then after that the sky's the limit in terms of what options are available to you from pure bro splits, which I talked about with Andy Baker recently in the podcast. So go search that you can go to wits & weights.com/podcast, and search for any past episode with a search box there and find the topic, but look for Andy Baker. And we talked all about bro splits. You could do push pull legs, you could do there are even three days per week programs that are kind of like full body programs. But for more advanced lifters where you're doing like a heavy light medium, instead of going all out every session. And then there are even high frequency programs, which I'm not a big fan of. But for some people they work. Women tend to recover better than men, it might work for you, and so on. As always, as I'm going to say on the show many times. It depends on your goals, your lifestyle, how your body responds. And you know, have fun with it. Like experiment. Life is a journey you have many years to try these things out. The principles are always the same progressive overload, right? Training, hard training, close to failure, having a managing stimulus versus recovery and fatigue. And eventually you're going to cycle through different programs, you might spend anywhere from like 12 weeks to many months, or even a year or more running the same program before you switch it up, depending on how well it's designed. So again, if you haven't gone back far in the archives if you haven't like been a binge listener, go back to episode two attitudes a strength training program. And if you're listening to my podcast and you haven't heard that, or many of the old episodes, definitely go check all those out the very first like 10 episodes were these foundational education series that I put together, which I'd love to revisit at some time to be honest, but they're still pretty solid. And then after that there's a Many, many episodes on these topics. Always reach out to me if you want on IG since we're already connected there, or go use the Wits & Weights comm slash podcast, podcast finder. Okay. Question number two is from the fan list page we have, okay. And this is, if you got a fan list.com/wits & weights, you can submit a voice message. Yeah, it's like old school, you know, call in radio show. And so our second question is from James Carr. And I'm gonna play that for you live on the show right now.
10:32
Hello, my name is James Carr. And I'm a big fan of your podcasts. I love the information that you have. I listen every week, multiple times through the week. So I really appreciate what you put out there on the podcast, and over the road truck driver. 54 will be 65 years old. In February. My question is about recovery. At work out. I'm not new to working out. However, I have deconditioned over the last probably 1012 years. I've just started working out again in about six months ago. I've seen some gains. But my question is, my recovery is so slow, that it's hard for me to get more than two workouts in during the week. And I do a hit style workout. I have dumbbells I gotta eat like barbells. But I'll have at all I have access to this set of adjustable dumbbells and do calisthenics mixed in with some dumbbell work. And I do a certain hit style circuit workout. Play sweet. Daily, it takes me three, sometimes four days in between workouts to get in my next workout. You have any advice, any tips for me to improve my recovery so that I could possibly get a third workout and during the week? Again, I thank you so much for all that you do all your information. All and hope to hear your response. Thank you so much. Have a great day.
Philip Pape 12:21
All right, James, Thanks for leaving a voice message. It's really It's always great to hear directly from dedicated listeners like you, especially in your own voice. It's so cool. So as your question. First of all, I'm, I'm always going to route for someone like you who is committed to working out despite the challenges of being on the road with that kind of lifestyle as a truck driver, the schedule you have, you know, I imagine there's just a lot that interferes with having a typical, you know, routine, both on the nutrition and training side. And here's what I'm going to do for you. Okay, I'm going to answer two questions, I'm going to answer the direct one that you asked. And then I'm going to answer the one that I think you need to hear. Because I bet there are a lot of folks listening or watching who face a similar dilemma of managing recovery. And it's it affects everyone, but especially affects it affects us as we age, right? Those of us over 40 5060, whether you've been doing it a long time or not. There are limitations in a recovery just from the aging process. It's not an excuse, and there's ways to work around it. But we have to be cognizant of that when we think of what our bodies are capable of, and what stress load or capacity they have. And as well as what goal you're going for. So first, the actual question you asked the literal question is about improving recovery, and being able to train a third time each week because you train twice right now. And we're going to talk about your mode of training, which is focused on calisthenics and cardio. So it's effectively an endurance based style training. I know you're using dumbbells, and I realized that that is some level of resistance and load. You didn't however, mention specific program or plan of progression on those. So I'm going to assume they're more you said circuit based. So that's more like a p90x type of deal, which really is endurance, it's good for conditioning, and a little bit of initial strength build, but then it kind of plateaus quickly on the strength side, and it becomes mainly a form of just movement of activity. Okay. And you could already hear in the way that I'm framing this part of the question, where I'm gonna go with a second question and answer that you need to hear, but I'm not there yet. So the issue of recovery, slowing down is pretty common as we age as I mentioned, especially when we're de trained, you said you were getting back into it. So that implies that some lack of conditioning, you're deconditioned. And then these things are compounded by, by age, by the inconsistent schedule by the lack of routine. I'm not saying you don't have a routine, but I'm saying your lifestyle and your job may make that difficult, right? And all these sorts of life factors, sleep and so on. You might be doing too much too soon and just you gotten ahead of your ability to recover. And or you might not be engaging in the behaviors between your workouts needed to recover, right? A lot of what we do has nothing to do with the workout itself so much as what we're doing in between those workouts, which is what I get the sense for what you are asking. So let's start with nutrition, always, are you getting enough protein for for that muscle repair for holding on to that muscle? Again, even if we're not talking about strength training, per se, you know, we all need protein. And the older you get, the more you need, aiming for that, you know, point seven to one gram per pound of body weight. And are you getting enough carbs for energy and recovery, when you do a lot of what we call glycolytic activity, right, where glycogen is a primary source of fuel, like the cardio style that you're doing the hit style, carbs can be extremely beneficial. Before and after your workout, kind of around the workout, you can play with it. So don't be training fasted is when I'm going out with that. And then as a truck driver, you might have limited food options. So definitely get creative with portable, high protein snacks. I don't know if you have a refrigerator or ways to keep things cold in a cooler, because I always go to like Greek yogurt and cottage cheese. But then there's things like nuts and protein bars, protein shakes, jerky, all that kind of stuff. Also, are you eating enough? Overall, I should have asked that to begin with, are you even eating enough calories total, because if you're trying to, if you're in a fat loss phase, which you didn't specify, that's going to have a big impact on your recovery as well. And at least with my clients when we're in a fat loss phase, we're also strength training and we try to keep the cardio pretty reasonably low, it's mostly walking with maybe a little bit of medium intensity, maybe hit session thrown in but not much at all, because the priority is the lifting and holding on to the muscle. So if you're dieting right now, that could that will definitely have a big impact. And so just maybe spend some time in maintenance, recovering all of that and seeing if that helps you get that third session in hydration, or you hydrated, right? Again, being a truck driver, I don't know what you have access to if you're drinking a lot of caffeine or diuretics. But staying hydrated mineralizing your water with electrolytes, something as simple as salt and lemon juice, or you can get convenient powders that can go in there. Right. So hydration. Sleep is vital for all of this. I mean, honestly, I should have said that number one. Besides nutrition sleep is the most important thing when it comes to recovery. Getting enough quantity of sleep quality of sleep. If you have to sleep on your truck, man, I don't know what the situation is. But I'm gonna go for quiet. Cool, you know where sleep mask put stuff in your ears. There's even this cool mask I just started using called URENCO. It's like an electronic eyeball massager, eat an eyeball massager you can use earlier in the day to kind of call me down. So having a quiet sleep environment where there's absolutely no light coming in, is going to be vital. And then having enough sleep, of course, or fit in naps when you can. There's also the idea of active recovery, right? If your primary mode is cardio and endurance, then you really don't want to be doing that same thing on your rest days. So are you just taking it easy and just walking. And by taking it easy, I mean, you still want to walk and move and kind of stretch out especially if you're sitting in a car all day, and get that you know, 810 1000 Steps ish to stay recovered between your sessions. But you also don't want to compound your stress with more cardio. And so we're thinking of like your blood flow, we're thinking of your muscle recovery, we're thinking over digestion, all these things that are aided your gut health and so on, aided by just taking it easy, but but getting the steps in the workout intensity comes to mind as well. Okay, I don't know how your two day sessions look. But maybe they need to be different in the sense that one is like super high intensity one is more moderate. Right? It's kind of like the high intensity pushes the moderate maintains but allows recovery, we do the same thing with strength training with a like a high, medium, low, Heavy, Medium light structure with training where you go, you know, super high intensity, then you go medium, or then you go light, then you go medium, I'm kind of fumbling on my words, but you get the idea. The idea is, rather than put go all out on every session, which could sort of get ahead of your ability to recover, you go all out on one session, and then you dial it back for the second so that you can recover but maintain and then you're able to go out for a third session of maybe somewhere in between, right or maybe it's one high two mediums, something like that, or a high medium and even like a take it easy session where you're you're at least working out, but it's nowhere near the intensity of the other ones. Runners, for example, you know, can really beat themselves up if they're always going after distance or they're always going after speed. And so playing with the training variables, and then working in different cardio zones, you know, split up some zone twos versus the zone four or five with a hit can maybe benefit your recovery. post workout recovery when it's when you're talking cardio. I don't know if you particularly have any particular areas or spots that were used to be injured or you had surgery where you need to massage foam or or, you know, use a lacrosse ball, things like that. You know, I generally like for lifters, I don't worry about that too much unless they have very special circumstances. But those things can help recovery when you kind of warm up or massage out part of your body that you've just used a lot for that session. And then of course, listen to your body. Like if you need the three to four days of recovery. Your body is telling you that it needs that time, right? And so you don't want to get overtrained. You don't want to get injured. And I should have asked us at the beginning, but why do you need to work out a third time? Is it mental health, like if there's a reason you want to work out that has nothing to do with making some sort of gain or progress, there might be an alternative is where I'm going. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights, I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today. I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. If we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.
Philip Pape 21:46
Now, here's the thing, I'm gonna give you the answer that I think you need to hear. Because based on what you shared about your current training, and the goals you're aiming for, which I think you mentioned gains in your audio message, right. And you listen to this show. So I assume, James that you want to get stronger. You want to build muscle you want improve your health, you want to prove your body composition, even your physique. And I'd strongly suggest moving away from calisthenics and circuit style training, to traditional strength training. Because I think that more than anything than anything I just told you, which are just kind of band aids on on the fact that you're already just doing hit style training, strength training more than anything will unlock the gains that I think you want and improve your recovery time. And they will still support your work capacity and your cardiovascular health. All right, and here's why. So let's talk about the very big principle underlying all of this muscle growth based on progressive overload. If you want hypertrophy, if you want gains, if you want to get stronger, you want to build muscle, you've got to have progressive overload, right? It's very straightforward with free weights. Now, if you don't have access to barbells, I get it. Dumbbells can still do the job as long as they can go up heavy enough. And if you're, you know, a typically strong guy with your truck driver, and you probably bigger guy, I don't know I'm making an assumption, maybe you're not doesn't matter. A male, there's a female, you probably need dumbbells or adjustable dumbbells that go up to 90 pounds, not just the 52 pound ones. So those aren't going to take you very far. So that's the kind of investment you gotta make, you got to make that choice and get those heavier dumbbells, right. And that'll give you a lot of runway to build some of that strength. You should also have some microplates, to put on those dumbbells so that you can progress in smaller increments where needed. And go ahead and just run a straight forward, you know, sets and reps across strength training program with dumbbells, like there's a million out there, I can point you to one you can, you know, reach out to me directly, we can follow up. But you're not going to do a circuit style training, you're going to do like three or four movements, probably a squat type movement, a press type movement, a hinge type movement, you know, pull type movement. And you can do that three days a week. And you're going to progress in weight over time. And that's how you're going to get stronger. And guess what, it's going to give you more time to recover. It's gonna be way less stressful on your body than these hit style workouts. You'll still build cardiovascular health because when you're lifting heavy, your heart rate goes up. And then you can walk the rest of the time. And you can still do a hit session or two in now I'm not saying you can't. Alright. Now if you can focus on compound movements, like we talked about, you know, squats, deadlifts, presses, it's more efficient with your time, right? It's not as much volume to impede your recovery, you're still gonna make big gains. And you can still do that with the dumbbells as long as they go heavy enough, right? I mean, there's other options like bands and TRX and stuff like that, but I definitely prefer the free weights. Another thing is that when you're training with, say, dumbbells or barbells, you can adjust your training load to manage your fatigue better and make sure you're not pushing beyond what your body can recover. I feel like when it comes to hit and cardio, we get in the zone or the endorphins are firing. You know, our heart rates up we go out And then before long, we don't realize we've actually maybe gone too hard for our recovery ability. Whereas I feel like with lifting you don't, you don't hit that same limit, you can manage it much easier, and then recover faster, and workout smarter. Alright. There's also the fact that if you lift, the three days a week is going to be no problem. I think, like, if you just lift weights, right HIIT sessions could beat you down, beat you up, the lifting sessions, especially when you're getting started, you're just building that initial strength, you can recover pretty quickly, you know, even at whatever age 5060 years old, okay. And that's going to be more beneficial than the high frequency nature of circuit training. Because it's going to provide your muscles the rest that they need to grow, I feel like the circuit training just tears them up. And then you go at it the next time, and you're just sore, but you're not actually building strength and muscle. What else? Let's see, I was going to talk about technique and stuff like that. But I mean, I don't want to get too detailed down the rabbit hole here. The other thing is free weight training, you know, strength training is very versatile, right, you can adjust all these training variables, sets, reps, rest, and programming itself, to work with your truck driving schedule and your recovery capacity. And then I alluded to before that strength training will increase your work capacity naturally. And you can still throw in a few short sessions of medium or high intensity cardio, if you need to increase your conditioning further, which is fine, like some people need to do that. And for others, just adding in a few extra 1000 steps of walking makes all the difference. I didn't, I didn't see details about your step count. But like if you're just doing the cardio, and then you never walk and you just sit all day in your truck, for example. That's another piece of it that could be impeding your recovery, which I kind of addressed when I talked about recovery days. So James, my man, I hope that you will shift your focus toward traditional freeway training, if possible, because I think that's going to yield you much better results in terms of hypertrophy, but also the Recovery Management you're looking for. I've had so many clients start with me, female and male who are just doing too much, and they're doing too much cardio, and we strip it all back, we go to a three day Full Body program, kind of like what I talked about in the first question today. And all of a sudden the stress comes down, the recovery goes up, they're able to eat better sleep more on and on and on kind of compounds on itself. Now, this isn't to say that what you've been doing isn't beneficial. So I don't want to be like, No, you need to stop doing that. But I know when you ask a question like this, for this show, you're looking for a little bit of guidance a little bit, a little bit of coaching, and I'm trying to provide that because I went through a lot of this myself. I did CrossFit for eight years. I've said that many times. And yeah, my conditioning was okay, but nothing else was where I wanted it. And it wasn't until I started lifting weights with progressive overload, that I started to make progress. And so given your goals, what are your goals, a pivot could be what you need to unlock what you've been striving for him, right? Let's think about working out differently. Let's think about optimizing your sessions for the gains you're looking for, and the recovery you're looking for, rather than trying to fit another day of what you're already beating yourself up with, into your already packed schedule. All right, keep up the hustle, James, keep it up. And, you know, please check in again, I want you to check in again. And send me another message with an update on your progress. You know, a few weeks from now, like whatever it makes sense, take action, whatever it is, if it's if it's continuing to do what you're doing, but getting smarter with all the things we talked about nutrition and rest and everything, and walking, go for it. If it's strength training, go for it either way, let me know how it goes. Alright, our last question today is from Facebook. So we're covering all the bases today. And this is from Ryan P. And Ryan says, quote, lately, I've been wanting to learn more about hybrid training. For a long time I only lifted no cardio. Now I'm doing both. And I'm wondering best how to balance them, as I sometimes feel that I'm spinning my wheels trying to make serious progress in both areas simultaneously. And I responded to him on Facebook and I said, Look, this is gonna be an awesome question. And I'm looking forward to answering it. But I wanted to make sure I got this right. When you say you're trying to make serious progress in both areas, simultaneously, that that is that is what the question is centered on it is not just, hey, I want to lift and maybe throwing cardio, it sounds like he really wants to make progress in both. Now we didn't go into details beyond that. I don't know if it's, if you're a competitor and endurance athlete, you know, if it's Ironman Triathlon, that kind of thing, Spartan, you know, whatever, and then you also want to lift, but I think the the advice I'm gonna give you today, the answer I'm gonna give will still be applicable. Alright. And this is a fantastic question, because it's very common. It's a very common dilemma today, because I think a lot of lifters are looking to incorporate more cardio into their routine, but they don't want to sacrifice strength and muscle gains, right. And this idea of hybrid training or concurrent training, it's sometimes called is is about finding the right balance between resistance training and cardiovascular work, so that you have the complete package for your training. Now there are there are some myths that persist one of those is the interference effect. Now there is some truth to the interference effect, the idea that if you do a certain amount of cardio, it will interfere with your recovery and the adaptation from lifting and thus interfere with your gains. But what we've come to find over the years is that it requires a significant amount of cardio to do that. And so there's a large tolerance of cardio that we can handle just fine as lifters. And I'm going to talk about a little bit here how there are even benefits to having cardio for recovery, as a lifter, mainly in getting your cardiovascular health, your work capacity up to snuff up to a certain level. And there are I've had clients, it's very interesting, they're super muscular, they've been training many years. And, but their cardiovascular fitness isn't quite there. So it's a kind of huff and puff in some of the longer workouts, they might not be able to get all the reps. And we just and it turns out that they're only getting 3000 Subs a day, because they have a desk job. And we upped that to six or seven and all of a sudden, boom, resting heart rate comes down, you know, HRV improves, you know, their zone two is is tolerable, and on and on. And that's all it takes. Other people need a little bit more than that. Okay. The key, though, is not to overdo it. And so here's here's my thoughts for you, Ryan. All right. First, what is your primary goal? Like? And I know, I know, you've probably thought that as well. Others have told you this. But you've got to decide which aspect of fitness is more important to you, at the moment, not for your whole life. Just at the moment like by at the moment, I mean, the next three, three months, the next six months, the next year. And I like to face things I like to face Tuesday. I like to face nutrition, I like to face training, even cardio. So in your case, you want to decide what is your goal right now? Do you want to gain muscle? Do you wanna improve cardiovascular health? Do you want to achieve fat loss? Do you want to perform an endurance competition, and then this is going to dictate how you prioritize your training, right? It doesn't mean neglecting one for the other. But understanding which one takes precedent because then you can say, Okay, I've got to set everything off for success for that one thing. And then see what capacity I have left are the other things. It's like, if you have, you can't have 10 of your favorite hobbies that you're doing all the time. You know, unless you unless you don't work or something, but you can't have like, Okay, I like woodworking. And I like, you know, playing video games, and I like playing music and I liked you know, snowboarding and I like this. And this, this is, and you're not going to do all 10 of those things, like almost every day of the week, right, you're gonna pick one that you go through a phase of learning and growing at, and the others you kind of maintain, and then you switch to another one, maybe you can do two at once, but then you're not doing them optimally, you get what I'm saying. So there's a first of all, if lifting is your priority, I would just say hey, lifting is my priority. And I'm going to incorporate strategic cardio, this is what I would do for that I would have low intensity, steady state cardio, okay, this could be biking, for example. And I would do those on your non lifting days or a few hours after your strength training, it's much less likely to interfere, no matter when you do it to be honest, and it can help with blood flow and recovery and work capacity. So I'm cool with that. So two, three, maybe even four of those sessions for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, something like that. Or if you need an hour long session, you know, have fewer of them. And then high intensity interval training if you prefer that. So there's different different schools of thought on this. One school of thought is do it the same day as your lifting session, right after your lifting, but not on a leg day. So like if it's a leg based hit, do it on a non leg day. So that you're kind of doing it in between the leg days and not interfering with the leg workout on the adaptation. But you're also not interfering with overall recovery. By putting it on a rest day you're putting it on after another lifting session, or putting it sufficiently spaced out like 234 hours spaced out if you lift in the morning to hit in the evening, right? Although I don't like high intensity exercise too late in the day, because I interfere with sleep and stress, cortisol everything else. Alright, anyway. So I think I just rambled on. But basically, if you want to have one or two high intensity training sessions, I think that's fine. I think more than that is too much when your priority is lifted. Now, if you want to use periodization, what I would do is structure your training in cycles. So you might focus more on lifting with minimal cardio for a few months, then switch to pre period where the cardio is the the precedence, right. And now instead of like for lifting days and two cardio days you might have for cardio days into lifting days, and the lifting days or just for strength maintenance, you have just the amount of volume needed to maintain, which studies have shown can be as little as a fourth or a fifth, the amount of volume just to maintain your muscles. So you're not trying to make any any progress on your gains. You're just holding on to your progress. And then you're focusing on the cardio, right? So periodization is a great strategy. Nutrition, of course, you're going to have to optimize that but generally it's not going to differ too much unless We're talking about a competition like an endurance competition where you need to carb load and kind of lower the protein, increase the carbs as you get closer to the event. Other than that, keep the protein high, make sure you're eating enough calories, make sure you have carbs to to refuel your energy storage of glycogen, getting plenty of sleep, you know, keep the rest days in there. This is why I like having cardio sometimes on the same day as you're lifting but spaced apart, so that you have full rest days where all you're doing is just walking. Okay? Also monitor all the things like monitor all the things that you want to track, and then adjust. And so if you're a data nerd, like me, I would go all out with all the things that you need, based on what your priority is at that moment. So whether it's strength levels, or your, you know, your body composition, how you feel your biofeedback, if you're an endurance data nerd, you want to look at your zone, what zone, you're in your resting heart rate, your HRV, all that stuff. And then if you notice the progress stalling on the thing that you care about right now, then that's a sign that something's off, right. And then there's also experimenting with different schedules. So despite everything I just said, you said that you're struggling to do both simultaneously. I suspect you're just doing too much. And you're not focusing on one over the other, like we talked about. But you may also want to move things around. So think about your schedule, and see both Should I lift and do cardio in the morning at night, on different days, on the same days, like try different permutations of those, see how your body responds because your life schedule, your work, your family obligations, your stress, your sleep, your food schedule, all of that are going to be tightly interwoven with your training approach. So it's a lot I know. And I kind of tried to answer a bunch of stuff all in one answer. But hopefully that gives you a good idea of how to balance and gives you ideas to balance both. Long story short, prioritize one goal at a time, be strategic, it takes longer to build muscle than to build conditioning. So unless you have a competition that you're going after, I would mostly prioritize building muscle, but then periodized in periods of the conditioning, the endurance, and then when you're doing that you can maintain your muscle. So there you go. Alright, hope that answers your question. That's all we have for questions today. That was three big meaty questions from from everywhere. And if you want your question answered in an upcoming q&a, I would say the best way to do that is either not either join our Wits, & Weights, Facebook community, it'll be one of the best decisions you ever made, because it's totally free. And we do live q&a is in there. There are masterclasses tons of resources a supportive community, right? We announce things we give you early releases of podcasts, episodes, things like that. So join the free Wits & Weights community. You can however, also send me a message on IG at Wits & Weights, look for both links in the show notes. Alright, in our next episode 149 Four surprising ways to lose that midlife belly fat with Megan Dolman making those awesome. I mean, she and I had such a great talk we actually recorded on each other's shows because it just it's such good chemistry. She's, she's amazing. And I like how she treats this topic. It's a fun and you know, frustrating topic. For many of you, especially many of you women, it's the topic of belly fat, especially in women over 40. And she gives it an evidence based treatment that I very much appreciate. You know, we're going to separate fact from fiction, you're going to learn about the physiological and hormonal changes that affect belly fat, right, the visceral, more dangerous fat around your organs. Megan will share four surprising but evidence based strategies for reducing belly fat, and she's gonna give you that confidence to tackle with what's called the midlife fluffing top whether you're looking to enhance your health or physique or just better understand your body. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits. & Weights podcast.
Philip Pape 38:57
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 147: A Brand New Way to Workout at Home with Josh York
Philip talks with Josh York, the dynamic founder and CEO of GYMGUYZ, a mobile in-home fitness training provider with over 150 locations across 30 states and three countries. Discover the journey behind GYMGUYZ's rise to a global fitness brand and their unique in-home training model. You'll learn about Josh’s intense personal health regimen and how he balances everything, his views on the fitness industry, and practical strategies in the world of strength training, building muscle, and optimizing your fitness.
How did Josh York transform a simple idea at his parents’ dining room table into a global fitness phenomenon? What practical strategies can you learn from Josh about strength training, muscle building, and fitness optimization?
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) talks with Josh York, the dynamic founder and CEO of GYMGUYZ, a mobile in-home fitness training provider with over 150 locations across 30 states and three countries.
Discover the journey behind GYMGUYZ's rise to a global fitness brand and their unique in-home training model. You'll learn about Josh’s intense personal health regimen and how he balances everything, his views on the fitness industry, and practical strategies in the world of strength training, building muscle, and optimizing your fitness.
From a simple idea at his parents' dining room table, Josh catapulted GYMGUYZ into an international fitness phenomenon, featured on the Inc. 500’s list of fastest-growing private companies. His journey has redefined the fitness landscape with GYMGUYZ's innovative mobile in-home training model, bringing personalized fitness solutions to your doorstep.
Josh also has what some might call an insane daily routine, sleeping just 4-5 hours a night, with a rigorous 4 am workout followed by a sauna session and a 27-degree cold plunge. As a motivational speaker and author, Josh lives a life fueled by passion and purpose, inspiring others with his journey and embodying the ethos of pushing boundaries and reimagining possibilities.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:21 Creating GYMGUYZ and the concept behind it
6:22 How to get started
7:48 Strength training, programming, equipment
11:00 Where is it available
11:20 Personal routine including sleep as the "enemy"
15:16 Your workout/nutrition, general philosophy of fitness
19:25 Consistency, motivation, staying positive
23:27 Balancing personal/business
28:05 Opinions on the fitness industry now and into the future
31:24 How to connect with Josh
31:47 Outro
Episode resources:
Josh's podcast: Fuel Your Drive podcast
Website: gymguyz.com
Instagram: @gymguyz
Youtube: @Gymguyz
Facebook: @GYMGUYZ
Episode summary:
As the fitness industry continues to expand and evolve, it becomes increasingly clear that the conventional gym experience isn't the only path to achieving physical fitness and wellness. One trailblazer in the industry, Josh York, has taken a distinctive approach to fitness, proving that innovation, combined with unwavering dedication and discipline, can not only lead to personal success but also create a global fitness empire.
Josh York's story is nothing short of inspiring. He transformed his passion for fitness into a business model that has revolutionized the way people exercise. By establishing GYMGUYZ, a mobile in-home training service, York identified a unique niche – providing tailored workouts to individuals in the comfort of their own homes. The company's growth is a testament to the viability of this concept, proving that convenience and customization are highly sought after in today's fast-paced world.
One of the most striking aspects of York's journey is his personal routine, which speaks volumes about his commitment to fitness and discipline. Rising before the sun at 4 AM and limiting sleep to only a few hours a night might seem extreme to some, but for York, it's all part of his philosophy of pushing the limits and setting the standard for the level of dedication he believes is necessary to achieve greatness. This routine is not merely about physical strength but also about mental toughness and resilience, traits that are invaluable for any entrepreneur.
York's approach to leadership within the fitness industry is also noteworthy. He embodies the 'first in, last out' philosophy, earning him not just respect but also credibility as a fitness leader. This principle extends to his belief that to inspire and lead others effectively, one must practice what they preach. His leadership style emphasizes the importance of being a role model and maintaining the highest standards of personal fitness and professional conduct.
The conversation on the podcast delves into the future of the fitness industry, including the role of social media influencers and the potential integration of AI in personal fitness. York's insights into these trends highlight the importance of authentic, lifestyle-focused solutions over transient fads. As the industry progresses, it's apparent that the most successful fitness brands will be those that can offer genuine, long-term value to their clients.
Aspiring entrepreneurs and fitness enthusiasts alike will find invaluable lessons in York's story. His blend of passion, perseverance, and a strategic mindset exemplifies what it takes to not only succeed in the fitness industry but to create a movement that redefines it. For those looking to follow in his footsteps or explore opportunities with GYMGUYZ, York's journey offers both motivation and a blueprint for success.
In a world where the pursuit of wellness is more prevalent than ever, the innovative approach of GYMGUYZ stands out. Josh York's story is a powerful reminder that with the right mindset, discipline, and innovative thinking, it's possible to turn a simple idea into a flourishing business that changes lives and shapes the future of an entire industry.
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Transcript
Josh York 00:00
You need to move. No one's gonna be moving for you. The only one who moves is yourself. And if you think some pair of goggles or something's gonna change your life, it's not you got to work out, right like sometimes, you know, look, if it's not broken, don't fix it like people are trying to reinvent like the basics of like working out and exercise. Sometimes sticking the basics is all you need to do to get great results. It's really not that it's like this is not rocket science. It's pretty simple, you know.
Philip Pape 00:24
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm talking with Josh York, the dynamic founder and CEO of gym guys, a mobile in home fitness training provider with over 150 locations across 30 states and three countries. I brought Josh on the show so you can learn about a brand new way to work out from home. Now maybe it's not new to you to you, but it was to me, and I want you to discover the journey behind gym guys his rise to a global fitness brand, their unique model, I want you to learn about Josh's intense personal health regimen, how he balances everything. His views on the fitness industry and practical strategies related to strength training, building muscle, optimizing your fitness. Starting from a simple idea at his parents dining room table. Josh catapulted Jim guys into an international fitness phenomenon featured on the Inc 500 list of Fastest Growing Private Companies. His journey has redefined the fitness landscape with Jim guys his innovative mobile in home training model, bringing personalized fitness solutions right to your doorstep. Josh also has what some might call an insane daily routine. He sleeps four to five hours a night has a rigorous 4am workout followed by Sauna, 27 degree cold plunge, all kinds of crazy stuff we're gonna get into today. And as a motivational speaker and author, Josh lives a life fueled by passion and purpose, inspiring others with his journey, and embodying the ethos of pushing boundaries and reimagining possibilities. Josh, welcome to Wits. & Weights.
Josh York 02:18
Oh, thanks very much, Philip. I appreciate having me on the show. Yeah, man. So
Philip Pape 02:21
let's just get right into the whole gym guys. Concept, how you started it, expanded it? Well, we'll learn about you along the way. But I know folks are like, what is this if they've never heard of it? And how did you build it? What kind of resistance did you get along the way?
Josh York 02:35
Yes, so I started this in my parents dining room in 2008. Started with the laptop and the vision and the vision has always been to be the largest fitness brand in the world. And we are the largest in home. And onsite personal training, let alone personal training company in the world. And soon we will be the largest fitness brand in the world are continuing to grow rapidly. big year for us. 2023, we opened up new locations, over 203 new cities we expanded into this year and next year, we're going to double that. So very exciting time for us. But for me, I've always been a trainer, loved helping people love changing lives. But being a personal trainer, I always like to say it's just like being a doctor, a doctor without patients is unemployed. And a trainer without clients is unemployed, I used to always say how can I make money when I'm not working? But, you know, the problem is a lot of people who are in the personal training space don't realize, like, they're very, you know, short term, they don't think long term. So they look at it, you know, because honestly, you know, till we've like created this personal training has always been like a job, you know, you can't really make a real strong career out of it. Unless you get into like, you know, Well, honestly, not even if you get into the celebrity stuff side of it, because you're gonna have an expiration date. And I tell everybody that we've created a career path year where people start as trainers for time go to full time become territory managers, area managers, general managers, then franchise owners, but how it'll happen was, I was training pretty much out of high school. I started in high school and I was doing very well very, very well. I was making high six figures as a personal trainer and I gave it all up to take a $30,000 marketing job, because that's what I was taught, you know, you go to school and you get a nine to five job and I'll never forget that first day I walked into that office. The negative energy was literally pouring down the walls. It was just horrible. Everyone's miserable. Everyone hates Mondays Wednesdays a little bit better. And today, people are bouncing off the walls right and if you if you live for two days a week for the rest of your life I'm telling you right now you are broken and you better figure something out because you need to be happy with what you do. And I said you know what, I can't do this anymore. I gotta go back into fitness. I always figure things out. There's always a way every no always gets me closer to a yes and started building up my clients again, right. I gave up all my clients. So I had to start from scratch and one of my clients at the time came in late and said Joshua Washington come to my house. They Just don't have any equipment. I was like, wow, this is like the most simplest idea. No one has ever professionalized this service. No one's ever franchised it. I'm gonna do it got a van stocked with enough equipment to provide you a fantastic workout. 365 days a year backed by our three C's convenient, customized and creative workouts came up with the name Jim guys is an acronym for get you motivated. Goals uniquely yours is zero excuses. The band started out white eventually went to red Red's our color and said I'm gonna go out there and service clients and started driving up and down the expressway and slowly but surely started getting calls and the demand was incredible. Got another band got another van. So our franchising in 2014. We are now franchising once March hits, we'll be franchising now. March 2, I'm gonna be officially sold our first franchise but soon as soon as January one hits will be 10 years we've been franchising. And today we are the largest in home and on site, personal training company in the world. And we service over 1000s of cities, we're in multiple countries, we'll be expanding into more countries this year. We're in 30 states and rapidly growing, and super exciting. And that's kind of how it started. And that's where we are today.
Philip Pape 06:08
Yeah, so what I take from that as you love what you do, for sure, you're super passionate about and I'm assuming you bring that energy to the business, and then it percolates down to the people taking advantage of this with the red vans coming to your doorstep. So I know a lot of folks like myself haven't really heard of the, at the actual model in their thinking, what is this? Right? Because we usually have a few options, we either go to a gym, and you hear people complain all the time, like the commute and the culture of the gym, you know, especially women with the intimidation factor of the gym, sometimes, maybe there's not one near them, or they often don't have power racks and things that they need for like a good workout. Then you have Well, I live in an apartment, I don't have much space, you know, I can't build out the gym in my house, or I don't have the money to afford it. So it sounds like this fills a big gap that I hadn't even thought of and like you said, it's a simple idea. But those are sometimes the best ones. Right? Nobody's serving. So tell us about the specific concept. How does it work? How does it you know what's unique? Just from the time somebody looks you guys up so they get their training session done? Yeah, absolutely. So the
Josh York 07:06
first visit we always give out is free. So they're gonna get three assessments, a body assessment, nutritional assessment and assessment, learn more about themselves, we're gonna obviously get some information about themselves, take some initial measurements, go through, you know, their fat, skeletal muscle, visceral fat, BMI, so on and so forth. That's done through our high tech body analysis machine, we use that we go through nutrition, we do have a whole nutritional platform. And also meals as well if clients are interested in that, and we put them through a fitness evaluation, where we test them in 15 different categories based upon that we then customize the program for each person and get them get them going. And that's what it's all about. And I always say it's great to make a living much better to make a difference. We are in the business of changing lives and helping people and we love we love it. We love what we do.
Philip Pape 07:47
So what if somebody says okay, I, I specifically want to do these kinds of workouts, right? I want to I want to work on the big lifts, right? Or I want to use progressive overload with with certain like a bodybuilding style programming Do you offer the programming is a custom programming, is it templates? Do you work with others programs and bring the equipment like how does that all work? Yeah, so
Josh York 08:06
it's all custom, everything's custom. You know, you know, the majority of our clients, you know, are not body builders, right. Like, we don't have many body builders, as clients, you know, the majority of our clients are people who are looking to increase their fitness, their lifestyle, be healthy living, healthy living, live a healthy lifestyle, excuse me, you know, build some nice, lean muscle tone. But then again, we do have you know, sometimes when clients come on, they want to, you know, get stronger, but we do that too. But people don't realize, like, you know, health is not just about lifting heavy weights, right helps being overall healthy and fit, right, like, can you run a mile? You know, can you go up the stairs and are huffing and puffing? Can you also do an exercise for 1520 reps and, and build that muscle endurance? You know, there's so there's lots of different avenues of what it takes to really be a fit individual. But we're creating a healthy lifestyle for people and that's what we do.
Philip Pape 08:53
Okay, yeah, I really want to get more specific, though, man. Like, if someone Someone wants to live, they do want to lift weights, and they do want to do you know, get overall fit? What is the equipment look like? Like? I'm just trying to imagine how does it come out of the van? How does it get constructed? Like, what does it look like we have,
Josh York 09:08
we have 365 pieces of equipment or vehicle everything's from dumbbells, weights, body bores, pool equipment, isometrics, Plyometrics, boxing equipment, agility, pilates, you name it, everything's in that vehicle, you know, we have barbells, cambered, bars, everything, there's enough weight in there to do whatever you want to do, right? So all that's there and obviously, based on the workout and based on what you're doing that day, based on the customized program that we're giving you is no template, everything's customized to us. You know, we're going to then obviously provide you that workout for that day and then take our stuff and be on our way and come back for the next workout and get you on your next workout. So it's, you know, it's very, very, very obsessively detailed, right, like I'm OCD guy, make sure we provide ourselves with excellent customer service. Our net promoter score has never dropped below 90 in the history of our company. I don't know if a lot of the viewers are familiar with the Net Promoter Score, but the NPS score is a score rated by to consumer anything over 5150 is considered like world class one of the top scorers out there is Ritz Carlton. They're like a 74 we have literally never dropped below 90 in the history of the company. So we really, you know, pride ourselves in providing not just, you know, convenience, but great customer service. It's very, very important to us.
Philip Pape 10:16
Right? Okay. Yeah. So if so you'd have right like, you'll bring your set up a rack and everything for bench presses and stuff like that
Josh York 10:22
we would bench presses, we're usually doing dumbbells, or, you know, we're not doing you know, no one is a gym guys, client bench and 500 pounds, you know, so some of the facilities we do work in have obviously that equipment there. But then, you know, we have, you know, obviously experienced certified personal trainers, so they can be going dumbbell presses, they can be doing straight bar presses, super setting with dumbbell presses, they're gonna be throwing in push ups in there, like, trust me when I tell you, you put up any tough, heavy, strong individual, they'll go through a gym guys workout, oh, they're going to be worked. Let me tell you, and they will be blown away. How challenging and also how rewarding it seems.
Philip Pape 10:59
Yeah. Now folks listening to this show. Are there all over the world? Where do you serve us? So
Josh York 11:05
we serve as the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom? Okay.
Philip Pape 11:08
And you're like in a lot of the big cities are, how hard is it find you guys.
Josh York 11:13
You already have the big cities pretty much true. Coast to coast. Yeah. Cool.
Philip Pape 11:17
All right. Yeah. That was curious about that. What about your personal routine? Because I know a lot of people are interested in that, right? Yeah, my
Josh York 11:23
routine changed since I'm 16 years old, never changed. Never. I am literally so dialed in. I can't be touched. I'm literally I'm the greatest in the world. That's what I believe. I believe I'm unstoppable. You should believe the same thing. Everyone should be the same thing. But I literally take the same step at the same set at the same time, every single day. And I never miss I don't get sick. I don't believe in sickness. That's not for me. I'm just I'm just on a different level when it comes to being mentally tough. And my routine doesn't change them up every day at 329. No matter what some days, I do get up earlier, like last week, I got up at 125. So I had a call in the UK that five hours ahead at 7:30am calls at 230 call. But I'm up every day at 329 Like clockwork, first thing I do, I literally go right into my ice bath. I've been doing this since I'm literally 1617 years old 27 degrees, I go right in for three minutes I come out, you know, wash up, you know, eat a little bit something, get my workout in workout. And then a day I'm used to doing you know, some type of intense cardio, followed by a sauna or if I'm not doing the sauna that day. I'm just you know, doing my cardio, and then I'm coming back home getting ready. I'm at my my building, usually around seven to 715 in the morning and you know, cranking away and you know, putting in about 1617 hours a day and do it all over the next day.
Philip Pape 12:34
So where did the self discipline come from? You said it was since the time you were 16? Because I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to like, well, I don't have that inherently. How do I develop it? Or how can I least change my identity? My mindset to have that, you
Josh York 12:46
gotta You have to want it. It's very simple. You know, I used to do crazy things. Here's the bottom line look, normal doesn't work. If you're a normal, it's just never going to work. The only thing that does work is not normal, right? I am there's nothing about me that's not normal. And if you want to, you know, become successful and spend your time around, successful people, they just move faster, talk faster and faster. That's that's just a fact. Just a fact. But um, I've always wanted to be in shape. I always wanted to be like, just out of control and in incredible shape. And I used to just, you know, I think about what I used to do back in the day, I used to get up literally when I had nothing to do all day and I would bike almost four miles to the gym every day at the crack of dawn, like so I've been doing this like my whole life. And I just I don't know, I just see it with me like when I believe I'm number one. That's what I believe. And I always believe in number one. No one's better than me. That's what I believe. So I've always like had this like thing, this game I always played myself that I have to be number one everywhere. Like even in school back in the day. I had to be number one to go out to recess I had to be number one to get to lunch, like so when I get to the workout. I mean, number one to be there. Like no one can be there before me. I before I got to swim in my home, I used to play this game with myself that when I was in there, I couldn't leave until I was the last person standing. So if someone came in, like in sometimes I was dying in there. I'd be like, you know, sir, you know how much time you have left? Highlands? Well, I once literally made this guy step outside for one second so that I could leave, because I wouldn't leave. But like that's like that's the level of what it takes. Like if you want to achieve great things. You have to be on a whole nother level have a mindset like like just a mindset that is just to most people. Some people might even be listening to that, man, this guy's crazy. And you're damn right. I am crazy. There's nothing normal about me. Like I said, normal doesn't work. And if you cannot get comfortable being uncomfortable and putting yourself through pain every day like suffering, you're not going to go anywhere in life. Because trust me when I tell you the easy way will never pay you well, it's never going to happen. The only way that pays is the hard way. And if you think it's going to be hard to do to do what you want to do. It's going to be a lot harder than you think it's going to be try like 700,000 times harder. It's a very painful experience and when you put yourself through challenging moments and suffering times and do that on a consistent basis like people work out I work out like my Sprint's alone would put your property in a hospital. Like I do things that probably 99.9% of people would not do. Just want to do it. But I do that because that's what makes me unstoppable. And that's what gives me that edge. And that's what I believe. Let
Philip Pape 15:16
me ask you, how does this permeate your business, like down to the personal trainer, and even to your clients? Because now I'm wondering man, people listening to this is like, holy shit this guy, like, if you're in the top point, 00 1%. Man, how do I get at least a 1%? You know, a lot of people are floundering, right? How does that permeate the culture? And how do you get people motivated? Yeah,
Josh York 15:34
good leaders will always create other good leaders. I was just giving this example a couple of weeks ago, I went to this doctor, because I was trying to find a new doctor, right, I can get some up, I want to get my blood drawn. And you know, I was wearing a hoodie, he couldn't tell I guess I was in shape. And he's telling me about how important it is to be in shape. This guy's belly was so far out that he couldn't probably need to see his feet. Now, does that make any sense to you? That someone like that is trying to preach how important it is to work out? And you look like that? And you're preaching
Philip Pape 16:05
to the choir when it comes to doctors, all these? Oh, yeah, so that makes zero
Josh York 16:08
sense. Okay, that makes zero sense. If you want to be a good leader, you better walk it and you better talk it. I'm the first one in and I'm the last one out every single day, I always the last everyone who's before me, okay, I go above and beyond because I'm a leader. And that's what I do. And if you want to be a good leader, you better be a good leader, if you can motivate, inspire your team and get them fired up and get them to keep moving and stay driven. Because you think it's all sunshine and rainbows there are so there is so much pain involved in growing a brand. We're not talking about a business like this is we built a brand, like when you're growing a brand, there is so much involved, if you are not on top of your game, you're not gonna win.
16:53
The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive. And coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embody all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
Philip Pape 17:38
People who do your workouts, do they get this kind of intensity?
Josh York 17:41
Not everybody, you know, not everybody, not everybody obviously knows me. But you know, my, you know, some of my original clients that I used to train I haven't trained in over a decade are still trained to this date. But you know, look, I am on on another level percent of what I what I am, you're going to be in a very, very good position. But you know, people, you know, people say, Oh, it's not possible. Listen, let me tell you something, it just by you saying that it's not possible. Exactly right, tell you anything is possible. You can do whatever the hell you want to do, as long as you put your mind to it. And you believe that your belief must be so strong that it overpowers everything else because the problem is, most of you people are listening to people. Like he could even be your own mother or father giving you advice when they haven't done what you're trying to do. So why are you taking advice from someone who hasn't done what you're trying to do? It doesn't work. Sometimes that could be the worst advice ever. You have to be the believer because when I started this, you know many people laughed in my face. I could sit here for hours telling you how many trainers I went through before I kept one longer than three months over 60 All you people listening guarantee would do a quit after the 10th one, maybe even a fifth one. Because the majority of people are weak and soft, and fooled by cheap chairs and quit. And the next day could be the day that changes everything. But you give up. It's very simple. If you want to win, it's a game. You got to play the game and the one who plays the game longer stays in the game is one who's always going to win.
Philip Pape 19:10
Yeah, yeah, I heard something yesterday on I don't know if it's unimpacted or whatever. The guy said, you know, if you can't you must kind of came to mind when you said that. Right? Like, first of all, if you think you can, and you say it, of course you're not gonna be able to do it. But anything you can if you play the game, so, men, yeah, you're intense. You're an intense guy. I'm sure you get this. And I don't know, you know, everybody likes different communication styles and personalities. So I'm just trying to kind of kind of keep with you on that level. Tell us a little more on the practical side because the people listening I mean, I'm sure there's entrepreneurs out there and I know you've got a big franchise model and everything but this is more for you know, people just trying to improve their fitness trying to live to eat better, all that. A little more nuts and bolts about kind of your routine or what do you think works well for most people, when you think about your client base and what you guys recommend through gym guys, maybe start started with nutrition. You
Josh York 19:56
know, look, if someone's trying to achieve a goal You gotta just do it right, everyone's waiting for like this perfect moment and like, your fitness is what I believe to anchor to everything in your life, right? Like, couldn't be very successful and have all the money in the world and be a fat animal, you're not successful, okay? You can be, you know, in shape, have all the money in the world and they're horrible relationships and not successful. Like you need to have all three of those components. You need to be able to have money to be, you know, to have that success, have great relationships and be in shape. Because let me tell you something, I've seen people driving around in Ferraris, and they come out and look horrible. Like, I wouldn't trade my life for them for anything like I don't care like I would, I just wouldn't. Like you gotta have all three of those variables. But look, it's very simple, like people overcomplicate this crap. You know, eat protein, every meal, right? Have a carbohydrate, bounce it out, have a color have a vegetable, like people think you need to eat like that all the time. It's called the 8020 rule. You won't even get crazy go 7030 You're still gonna look better than everybody else. But like, tonight, I'm going out to dinner. I'm gonna have my well done chicken parm, I have probably three baskets of bread. I'll have my rigatoni Lavaca. Dude, I like this all the time. But is it every day? No, but I do it pretty much weekly. And I'm rich I got a six pack I'm in great shape. tip top shape. It's about balance right like people like when you think you have to eat salads every single meal and starve yourself like look fasting there there is some very good you know components to fasting I'm I do it myself. But the bottom line is like it's just about consistency and being disciplined. That's the problem. You know, if you want to start, start slow, right, just start with some small steps like just move your body, start getting like 10,000 steps a day to start, that's not hard to do. Make sure every meal like look, if I'm gonna have like a pizza because I want a pizza, I would never have it for a meal, it has to be after a meal like because all my meals are always protein. Same rules apply. If you're gonna have a cheat meal, and you want to go crazy, make sure it's protein, make sure it's like a chicken dish or it's a state issue. It's got any protein, don't just get like a pasta dish. Make sure this chicken in there, make sure the steak in there. That's the rule of thumb. Yep, nutrition is very important. Also, make sure you hydrate right like I drink this water every single day. But we will also make another mistake. Water does not hydrate you water with Himalayan salt or salt extolled electrolytes. If you take salt, like I have salt in there, right now you sprinkle little salt in there, my store container. I don't know if everyone's seen this video. But literally, I think a pitcher that every single day, and I pop it right into my water, because that's what really hydrates you. But these are things you learn over time. But if you want to become a better individual, move your body every day and start with that. And trust me, you want to be successful in life. And let me tell you something, working out is what's going to give you that discipline because what really defines you as a person is how disciplined you are. Because people are getting ready to have these No, these leads nonsense New Year's resolutions, New Year's resolutions are the biggest joke in the world, to be honest with you, you want to have a resolution fine, but you should be having them all the time, quarterly monthly, weekly, not just once a year, because New Year's resolutions die all the time. It's about setting those goals, and you got to do it when you don't want to do it. And you got to act like you love it. Man,
Philip Pape 23:12
there's a lot of good stuff in there. And I would say I agree with 100% of it. Especially the you know, the flexible dieting we talked about all the time. And you mentioned 8020 7030 I mean, the average American is is like 3070 You know the other direction like 70% processed food, right? And starting with one small step, you know, working out giving you discipline, you know, we talked about that too, all the time, just whatever it is the the commitment that it takes to do that. And the fact that you're controlling how your body is changing, right, and you're putting something hard on yourself and seeing it change, you know, your muscles and so on leads to discipline in other areas. So what I'm wondering about you mentioned, fitness isn't non negotiable, you need it in unlocks everything else, you wouldn't want a lot of money if you're not going to live long and you're gonna be you know, fat, you wouldn't want terrible relationships, but with a lot of money. So how do you how do you what is the balance between those and I hate to use that word because sometimes it really is not so much balance as you're just going after it all the time and it changes but what's your thought on that? It's
Josh York 24:06
very simple, right? You need to do all of it. Right? It's look, first of all, there's no such thing as balance but to like equal them all out. Look, I'll give you an example. I was having a conversation with someone the other day. Okay, you know that ice cream thing that ninja creamy
Philip Pape 24:22
ninja creamy. I don't know that man. Okay,
Josh York 24:26
so there's a really good good cheat code here. Okay, you could pretty much make ice cream. You know pretty much you make ice cream in this ninja creamy okay, you get like so a protein shake pour it in there. Put like some
Philip Pape 24:39
Oh, this is Oh, this is this is an appliance yeah creamy. Okay, got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah, just to
Josh York 24:43
give you like, like when you talk about like making changes. You could you could pour it in their freezers overnight then on freezing you mix it in a stain you go put like an Oreo or two in there. Let's say the things probably 300 calories. Okay for like I'm talking like a nice size. You get that same The size of like a Haagen Dazs that's probably like 2700 calories. That's a small change you like hamburgers, soda, why? Okay, go to McDonald's, get a hamburger, or come to my grill and get a hamburger, right? Because they'll have it on a bun, you can still have the same hamburger, you still have same Geez, it's not saturated butter, you can make different choices, you can put some healthy vegetables on there. It's about making small changes, that that your foods can still taste amazing. And you can enjoy it. So that's how you kind of balance that area on fitness. It's a non negotiable, you know, like, God wants you to take your clothes off and stare yourself and tell me if you like how the way you look. Because I love the way I look when I'm naked. And you should love the way you look. But how do you do that? By exercising? It's it's it's it's how you represent yourself. Like, when someone when you walk in there, like when I walk in the room. I demand presence. I don't even say a word. It's just the way I look. It's the energy that comes from me, it's my confidence. That's because I know I'm the greatest and I know I'm number one. But that's because I take care of myself. That's because I you know, you can see my muscles do my share you it's a it's your calling card. So you better do that. Because that's another way to really, really not just, you know, control situations, but get respect. And when you get respect and you have that confidence. People want to work with you. And the last part relationships, man, look, it's everything. If you don't build relationships, you're never going to win, to keep everything. It's the way to open up every single door. You have to be able to build great relationships. And when you can really balance all those out and make all those work. Great things are gonna happen for you and your life. Now. Do you think I like to work out every day? You think I really like waking up every day at 329 in the morning? Really? Ask yourself you really think? No, never I hate it. I don't like it every day you think I like jumping in my eyes fifth, believe it or not honest, true that scares me every single morning I go in every single morning, I have the same feeling. Especially now I live in New York, it's freezing. So all my garage, it's like in the 20s. And I'm jumping in a 27 in the ice bath. But you know what I think I say to myself, no one's gonna do shit like this. No one does what I do. That's why I am who I am. I'm unstoppable. And I jump right in as three minutes of my day, three minutes. And if you do it over and over and over and over again, it's like anything else? It's easy. You
Philip Pape 27:19
don't even think about it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the thing about walking into a room and commanding attention, I think that could apply to anyone listening. And I've seen it with folks who are just even just going from never working out to working out two weeks later, bigger posture, all of a sudden, more confident, you know, physically not much has changed, but they're standing taller. And I think that's a great visual, because you know, somebody listening might be 60 training for the first time have a lot of weight to lose, you know, they know they're going to have to look a certain way. Like as if they were 30 in a few months, but relative to where they are now, man, it makes a huge difference in everything else. Right? It's just Matt a massively ramps up that confidence to do the other things. And like you said, hard things become easier and easier, even though you don't look forward to them. You still do them because you know the result you get. Cool. So what's like, what's your opinion on the fitness industry overall? You know, we've got so many fitful answers now on social media, we've got a lot of different programs, recommendations, people talking about, you know, all the fad diets, all that stuff. Like I'm just curious about your your
Josh York 28:17
opinion, I think you need to follow and pay attention to people who actually look the part. That's what I think that's number one. Right? You shouldn't be trading with someone who would that if you don't want to look like that right. Now, then again, it depends like, you know, I you know, I have some trainers on my team who have lost hundreds of pounds. Like, that's different. But it's all like you got to align with what you want to align with. Right? And you got to make sure you do the research and you understand what I think about the fitness industry, I think there's a lot of fitness beds out there. You know, the majority of treadmills become amazing clothing racks, a lot of these technology pieces of equipment, no one uses people and actually procrastinators, they don't turn it on. We live in a world that convenience. You know, AI is never replacing fitness. Like when people say that I laugh that makes sense. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. Like, you need to move, no one's going to be moving for you. The only one who moves is yourself. And if you think some, some pair of goggles or something's going to change your life, it's not you gotta work out, right? Like sometimes, you know, look, if it's not broken, don't fix it, like people are trying to reinvent, like the basics of like working out and exercise. Sometimes ticking the basics is all you need to do to get great results. It's really not that it's like, this is not rocket science. It's pretty simple, you know, but, you know, I just think there's a lot of people talking out there and you know, again, look like the work always has to come before the price. You know, a lot of people are out there and they're trying to like, promote something or say something and they've never actually done anything. So just make sure you're paying attention to the right people and listening to the right people because that's very, very important. Yeah,
Philip Pape 29:46
yeah. And that's why I asked because that some people find that a difficult thing to do to kind of separate that from the noise. And would you say look apart just to clarify. And like you said, some of your trainers, they may have lost hundreds of pounds, and if you just looked at them, you'd say well, maybe they're not the fittest person I've ever seen, but actually, in relative terms, they've made a huge improvement. So that's maybe where some of the confusion is, because then there's also like bodybuilders who may not be very good coaches. So how do you separate that you
Josh York 30:10
just kind of really be smart and do the research. If you don't do the research and you don't understand the background, you know, the, you know, then it's not gonna work, right. So you got to really make sure you do your research, it's very important, before you start jumping to conclusions to say, alright, you know, this person is great for me or not, like, you got to really figure it out.
Philip Pape 30:25
Yeah. What about the future of your industry? Right? The the gap that you fill where things going?
Josh York 30:30
Yeah, look, it's very simple. I'm not just saying this being biased. I'm, you know, I'm being very real, like, we're gonna keep winning, because we're not, we're not a fad. It's a lifestyle, what we do, and at the end of the day, look at the world we live in, right? I'm sure everyone on here is owner of Amazon a minute ago, an hour ago, we can go chances are, you're a prime member, if you're not if I pass out, that's not going anywhere, and true stat 90% of people that have a gym membership don't even go, right. If you look at some of the most successful gym models out there, they're based on you not going because who's going to cancel his membership or five $10 a month. So at the end of the day, this is why we're gonna keep winning. And, you know, I think the people who are obviously, you know, continue to focus on, you know, what we're doing are going to be the ones who keep winning.
Philip Pape 31:09
Cool, man. I mean, we've covered a lot of different things. But I do always like to ask if there's something you want me to ask or a specific thing you wanted to get into that we hadn't already.
Josh York 31:17
You didn't ask me how I'm so handsome. But I'm good, man. I didn't know I think we covered a lot.
Philip Pape 31:23
All right, man. Cool. Well, where can listeners find more about you and your work?
Josh York 31:28
Yeah, you know, go online. You know, you can visit Jim guys.com You know, to learn more about our service. So maybe interested in a franchise? This you know, we do not sell franchises, we award them just make that very clear. We look for the right people, people who are rockstars you want to find out more about me, you just type in Joshua, and I'll pop up pretty much everywhere. And yeah, and that's
Philip Pape 31:47
it. All right, man. I'll add those in the show notes for sure so people can find you. Really thank you for being on the show.
Josh York 31:53
Yeah, my pleasure. I appreciate you having me man. Thank you so much.
Philip Pape 31:58
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 146: How Your Body Actually “Burns” Fat During Weight Loss (Where Does It Go?)
What really happens to fat when you lose weight? Where does the “stuff” go? How does it leave your fat cells and then your body? In today’s episode, Philip unravels the super-interesting, complex, and surprising journey of how your body burns fat during weight loss. From the moment you hit a calorie deficit to the result of a slimmer waistline, tune in as we decode the metabolic processes and bust common myths about fat loss.
What really happens to fat when you lose weight? Where does the “stuff” go? How does it leave your fat cells and then your body?
In today’s episode, Philip (@witsandweights) unravels the super-interesting, complex, and surprising journey of how your body burns fat during weight loss. From the moment you hit a calorie deficit to the result of a slimmer waistline, tune in as we decode the metabolic processes and bust common myths about fat loss.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
04:57 Exploring how the body burns fat during weight loss
07:19 Fat cell mobilization and the role of hormones
11:45 Fatty acid oxidation and energy
18:10 Water and CO2 loss
20:02 Weightloss through strength training and exercise
25:01 Common fat loss myths debunked
31:18 Practical takeaways for successful fat loss
34:33 Free guides on fat loss
35:44 Outro
Episode resources:
Episode 40: Everything You Need to Know About Fat Loss (Simple Strategies for a Fitter, Leaner Body)
Episode summary:
This episode offers listeners a myth-busting expedition into the true mechanisms of fat loss and body recomposition.
The episode kicks off by addressing a question that has piqued the curiosity of many: Where does fat go when we lose it? The answer is as astonishing as it is scientifically sound—most of the fat we lose is breathed out as carbon dioxide. This revelation is the tip of the iceberg in understanding the metabolic processes that govern the way our bodies handle fat.
Diving deeper into the discussion, the podcast explores the intricate dance of hormones and enzymes that orchestrate fat mobilization. When the body finds itself in a calorie deficit, it triggers a series of hormonal responses that initiate the breakdown of fat cells into free fatty acids and glycerol, which can then be used as energy. The key players in this process include adrenaline, growth hormone, insulin, and cortisol, each with a specific role that contributes to the liberation of energy from fat stores.
However, the episode does more than just dissect the biochemical pathways of fat loss; it also dispels common myths that have long misled the fitness community. One such myth is the concept of spot reduction—the false belief that one can target fat loss in specific body areas. Another is the misunderstanding of overnight weight changes, which are often attributed to fat loss but are predominantly due to fluctuations in water weight.
Strength training emerges as a central theme in the podcast, highlighted as an essential component in boosting metabolic rate and enhancing fat oxidation. Contrary to the misconception that lifting weights is solely for muscle gain, the episode elucidates how strength training plays a pivotal role in increasing one's basal metabolic rate, thus aiding in the fight against fat.
As the conversation shifts toward the art of sustainable body recomposition, the emphasis is placed on the pitfalls of rapid weight loss, which often results in muscle depletion and an unsatisfactory physique. Instead, a gradual approach that focuses on muscle retention is championed for long-term success. This strategy encompasses not only strength training and consistent exercise but also a balanced diet rich in protein, adequate sleep, and recovery practices.
In wrapping up, the podcast touches upon the practical tools for tracking progress, underscoring the importance of body measurements over scale weight. By understanding that the body can undergo significant changes in composition without a corresponding shift in scale weight, listeners are encouraged to look beyond the numbers for a true gauge of their fitness progress.
In essence, episode 146 of Wits and Weights is more than just an informational session on fat loss; it's an empowering discourse that equips listeners with the knowledge to navigate their fitness journeys effectively. By unveiling the metabolic mysteries behind weight loss and debunking entrenched fitness myths, the episode stands as a beacon for those seeking to achieve physical self-mastery through evidence-based methods.
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
What really happens to fat when we lose weight? Where does the stuff go? How does it leave your fat cells and then your body? In today's episode, we are unraveling the super interesting, complex and surprising journey of how your body burns fat during weight loss. From the moment you hit a calorie deficit to the end result of a slimmer waistline. Join us as we decode the metabolic processes and bust common myths about fat loss. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights
Philip Pape 00:56
community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast in our last episode 145 Brian Borstein on failure training intensity, home gyms specialization and cardio. Brian shared his vast knowledge on training methods, such as length of partials, maximizing metabolic stress, intensity techniques to save time and ramp up muscle growth ideas for leg movements in a limited home gym, his thoughts on cardio and how to specialize your training for specific body parts and epic conversation back on 145. Today for Episode 146, how your body actually burns fat during weight loss. Where does it go, you'll learn the hidden mechanics of fat loss, which I must admit, took me back to my love of basic science. And this was a good refresher on how all of this works. This is something I've been fascinated with for a while. Today, you're going to learn how your body transforms fat into energy during a calorie deficit. The very interesting dance of hormones and enzymes that mobilize fat cells. And the surprising ways that fat literally exits your body, which is what we're going for, to cause your weight to trend downward over time. Now to make it a bit more practical for this episode, it's not just the science, I'm also going to debunk some of the more persistent fat loss myths explain the impact of activity and strength training on fat loss, and concluded practical, sustainable strategies for effective fat loss and body re composition. I want to give a big shout out to just Cetus in our Wits & Weights Facebook group for suggesting this topic, I had created a post where I asked about things that you wish you knew more about, but haven't heard lately, on a podcast. And we have a lot of people who are avid podcast listeners not just to this show. But if you listen to this show, you probably listen to you know 20 3050 100 other shows like it. And of course, we're trying to be unique here and hit on things that aren't covered as much in other shows. And that's why I wanted to find out what you you know were interested in. So this was definitely an awesome idea. Just see it as something that I'm surprised I hadn't come up with because I've been fascinated by it myself. I've lost sleep over thinking about what the heck is happening. When I go to bed at one weight and I wake up and another what is going on. So huge thank you for the idea. Speaking of the Facebook group, if you're feeling like you're going it alone and would benefit from some real support and engagement by people with the same or similar goals as you, such as body composition, building muscle, losing fat, all the things come join the 100% free Wits & Weights, Facebook community, it's an extremely positive community. Now I've been in a lot of Facebook groups. And I've met people who just don't get a great feel from a lot of these groups. But then they join our group and they're like, this is the one group I'm going to be in and I'm going to use Facebook just for this. Because it's so supportive. So positive. We've got experts that come in, I post a lot of exclusive content. There's the Ask Philip read every Friday where I answer your questions live in the group. So you can post your question throughout the week and then I'll answer it live. We have exclusive workshops, like the mindset workshop on stopping self sabotage with Paul Salter exclusive lives challenges so many things in the group. So I invite you to click the link in my show notes. Always there every episode no matter what your episode you're in, you'll see a link to join the Wits & Weights Facebook group, so you can see what it's all about. Good always leave if you don't like it, but I am pretty sure you're going to really love the atmosphere. And then you could talk to other driven individuals who are looking to improve their body composition using the evidence based approaches that we talked about. For training, nutrition, health, physique, all of that. Again, just click the link in the show notes or search Wits & Weights on Facebook to join the Wits. & Weights Facebook community. Alright, enough of that. Let's jump into today's very, very intriguing topic, how your body actually burns fat right weight loss, where does it go. So when you're in a calorie deficit, meaning you are consuming fewer calories than your body is burning, the body says, whoa, what's going on, you're asking me to do things like exist, move, lift weights, whatever, you know, pump your heart, but you're not giving me enough energy in the form of food. And so the body needs to pull from its energy stores that sells That's right, that's, that's, that's what we love about it. They're like, they're like our battery cells, and we want them to shrink in certain cases. And it's gonna pull from those energy stores those fat cells to make up for the lack of energy coming from that. So the main energy store in the body is fat, it's stored in what we call adipose tissue. And to tap into those fat stores, the body goes through this complex metabolic process to release the energy contained in those fat cells and make it available for the body to use. Now you might have heard it's, it's pretty easy to gain fat, but it's also not so hard to lose it, right. So it kind of is a fast process. When we look at how this all works. Now, our body stores this, this any excess energy that comes in, in fat cells, it converts it in some way, and we're not going to go through that process. But those fat cells those adipocytes, they get stored energy does in the form of triglycerides. So you've probably heard of that, because triglycerides get measured. If you ever get your blood work done, you see your LDL, HDL and triglycerides. And this is why one of a kind of a general proxy for poor health is high triglycerides, because it indicates higher fat storage, right higher body fat. Now, to tap into these fat reserves, you need to be in a calorie deficit, meaning you consume fewer calories than you burn. However, I said that earlier, however, you can tap into these fat cells, even when you're not in a, a total gross deficit. But you're building muscle at the same time. And your body ends up being in a net deficit after accounting for the energy to build that muscle. So it gets a little confusing, because you're like, Well, how do I lose fat, even when I'm not in a deficit, it simply because to your body in terms of what it needs for energy, it thinks it's in a deficit, because you've already used some of that energy to build muscle, just to simplify it, and it and it's like, wait a minute, I still need more energy. So I'm gonna pull it from the fat cells. But to keep this simple, we're going to just say that you are in a calorie deficit, meaning you're eating less than you burn, and then that'll make it easy to understand. Alright, so I want to start with a concept called fat cell mobilization, for fat burning to occur. And you know, when we say burn, we don't mean like it's literally on fire. But yet, there is some sense of reality to that, because we are expending the energy for fat burning to occur. First, the fat itself has to be broken down into what's called three fatty acids, and glycerol. And it does this through a process called lipolysis. This occurs when hormones that regulate your fat metabolism, trigger those fat cells to release their contents. So that's very high level, right? There are hormones that regulate your fat metabolism, they trigger the cells to release their content. And there are 1234 Key hormones that I'm going to talk about briefly here. The first one is adrenaline and noradrenaline kind of a combo. So a lot of the terms I'm going to throw out here are sciency. And even I don't understand them all, because I'm not a biologist, but I'm saying it verbatim. So catecholamine hormones, think that's how you pronounce it, are secreted by the adrenal glands. So you know, the adrenal glands, which produce adrenaline, and this happens in multiple times, but especially during exercise, fasting, which is just another fancy way to say calorie deficit, meaning even within a given day, there are times at which your body is in a deficit, but even over the long term as well. And also stress, right? So these hormones that are secreted activate an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase HSL, that directly breaks down the triglycerides into free fatty acids. I'll put another way. They bind to the receptors on fat cells, signaling them to release stored fat. So just that just to summarize, right, you do certain things like going to a calorie deficit. There's hormones that get secreted, and they tell the triglycerides to break down into free fatty acids, right. Then we have growth hormone. So growth hormone is secreted by the pituitary gland. And it's done. So impulses which I think is really interesting, especially during sleep and high intensity exercise. So growth hormone activates lipolysis. Remember Life policies is this conversion process through triglycerides, triglyceride lipase enzyme and by boosting the effects of other fat burning hormones. So this is as complicated as is going to get trust me, but if you nerd out on this stuff, I hope you enjoy insulin, we all know about insulin. This is an anabolic hormone. It's an anabolic hormone. We love insulin in the strength and lifting community as much as a bad rap as it gets. For in the anti carb world, it's something we are happy to have, because it's anabolic, and it promotes glycogen, fat and protein storage, when you have lots of nutrients. But when you're in a deficit, the insulin drops and your low insulin levels, further facilitate lipolysis. And then finally, we have cortisol, right, the stress hormone, it's released again, by your adrenals, another hormone released by your adrenal glands, when you are fasting, or you're in a starvation mode, or in a calorie deficit, right. This is why fat loss is stressful for you. Cortisol raises blood sugar, and it promotes gluconeogenesis. And providing fatty acids as fuel, right. gluconeogenesis is when you convert protein into glucose. It prevents adipose tissue from taking up and storing circulated fats. So this in this case, that's a positive that we're going for, because it's actually preventing the storage of fat cells. So the combination of all these hormones in this very complex dance end up bringing the fatty acids from the triglycerides, and these free fatty acids and the glycerol, enter your bloodstream. And now they can be transported to your tissues for energy production. So we're not even talking about the loss of fat yet, we're just talking about the release of the energy from your fat cells, which your body needs, that's why you released it, your body didn't have enough energy, because you were effectively starving it with a calorie deficit, it now needs that energy to kind of make up the difference before it then has the byproducts that lead to weight loss. So we're gonna get to in a second. Okay, hope you're still with all right. So that was, that's all mobilization. Now we have fatty acid oxidation. So once those fatty acids, those free fatty acids are circulating in the bloodstream, they can be transported to your various tissues, like your muscle cells, right and the enter the mitochondria of the cells. Now, you may remember that term from biology, and they undergo what's called beta oxidation at the end, the end result is they produce ATP, adenosine triphosphate, ATP, is the body's usable energy. You may have heard about ATP with when if you've ever learned about energy systems, or the fact that we need that ATP when we we strength train for that when you take creatine, it increases the uptake of ATP into the muscles, which helps with your lifting, right? ATP, it's effectively the the atomic unit of energy for the body, atomic Nami atom but but like a single, it's the ultimate unit of energy. Here's what happens. Number one, fatty acid molecules are broken apart in various stages. And these release what are called acetyl groups. Number two, the acetyl groups go through chemical reactions in the Krebs cycle. Again, biology, I'm not getting into this, trust me, this is as detailed as I go. That Krebs cycle then causes these to produce electrons, those electrons feed into the electron transport chain, and that generates ATP molecules, again, the body's energy, currency. Now you don't have to understand any of what I'm talking about in this episode, to lose fat. But it's really fascinating. At least I find it so. So this process of using oxygen in mitochondria, to break apart fatty acids and generate ATP is what we call fat oxidation. Right? So you see why it's called that we're using the oxygen in the cells break apart, the fatty acids generate ATP. Now, before you actually lose weight, lots of the energy released as ATP is, of course, used by your body for all of its cellular processes, like digestion, keeping your organs functioning, your heart pumping, you're exercising, you're walking, you're using all of your muscles, lifting weights, even sleeping, basically, every breathing, right, everything that makes up your body's metabolism, and adds up to what we think of as your maintenance calories, right, your TDE all the all the energy you need throughout the day, from you know, 12, midnight to 12. Midnight, the next day you're TDE is you need energy from somewhere. So if you don't get it from food, because you're in a deficit, you get it from your fat cells as ATP that's been oxidized. Now, since you're in that calorie deficit, right, and your body has pulled extra energy from fat cells that it couldn't get from your food. Here's where the magic happens. That causes you to lose physical weight on the scale. All right, the carbon atoms from this process are ultimately released as carbon dioxide and the hydrogen atoms combined with oxygen atoms to form water. And this is where we get all of the weight loss during fat burning. These turned into three things. Okay, two I just mentioned and then a third I'll mention a second. Carbon dioxide, water and other minerals So carbon dioxide, around 84% of the mass loss from fat comes from you breathing out co2. Each Tria GLIs Trius sigh glycerol molecule holds a bunch of carbon atoms. And this is a byproduct of the oxidation process we talked about earlier. And all the cellular processes that occur that get used, that were that use the fat cells, what you're left with is this triacylglycerol molecule, and it has a bunch of carbon atoms that get released. And they combine with the carbon and oxygen combined co2. So 84% of the weight you lose, you're breathing it out. That's it. Right. And I was, I was shocked to hear this, when I learned it a couple years ago, I always thought it was your sweat your urine, you're going to the bathroom, a heat, you know, but 84% of the mass loss comes from reading out co2 16%. So almost all the rest come out as water. So this is the loss of hydrogen atoms combined with oxygen to form water. And that comes out through your sweat, your urine, your respiration, like your breathing, where there's there's liquid in your breath as well. And then some other physiological processes. So it's not nothing still 16% of what you lose does come out in the form of water. But 84% of is carbon dioxide. And then there's a trace amount like a half percent or less, that come out as other minerals like phosphorus and sulfur, which you know, can come out in your urine, for example, hence the smell. Okay, so the carbon dioxide, co2 production happens continuously, right? It's always happening, you're obviously always breathing out, but it could reach its highest rates after you eat or during aerobic exercise. And this is why they're all these links between exercise and fat burning and types of exercise, fasted training and all these other things. At the end of the day, don't try to gain the system when it comes to fat burning in that sense. Just be consistent and do the work. And it'll happen. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights,
Philip Pape 17:10
I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today. I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. And if we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.
Philip Pape 18:10
Now, the water loss tends to be steadier. Right? It's not continuously like the co2, it's more from sweat from urinating, it depends on your breathing rate, things like that. So in summary, here's the thing. The fat exits fat cells enters the bloodstream, it travels to cells for energy processing, and then leaves the body as co2 and water resulting in weight loss from the loss of carbon atoms. That's it. You're losing carbon. All right. So that's the metabolic process. I hope, hopefully, I kept it high enough level and simple enough that you're like, wow, that's interesting. And maybe I want to learn more about bits and pieces of that. And maybe I'm shocked or surprised that most of it comes out of co2. And that's how you're physically losing weight. Right. Now, real caveat there is that your day to day scale weight doesn't tell you enough information to know how much of that is from the loss of co2, because the water weight fluctuates significant. We talked about that before on the show. But if you're new to the show, or you're wondering about scale weight, the reason we'd like I like my clients to weigh themselves every single day so that we get used to the fact that your weight fluctuates by multiple pounds almost every single day. And only through the trend over time. Can we tell if you're actually losing fat, these carbon atoms are actually leaving your body over time. So it's almost like that the carbon atoms leave slowly, you know, to the tune of, let's say, a pound a week. But every day water, water molecules go in and out at a rate of you know, 123456 pounds a day. So the signal in the noise is hard to detect. Unless you're capturing your weight daily over a long time. And by long I mean two to three weeks to see that that it's actually trending your body mass is actually reducing Carbon atoms via carbon dioxide. Alright, so I did want to touch a little bit on exercise strength training your metabolic rate, how they engage with this process of fat storage and using fat for fuel as well. And then we'll get into common fat loss myths. So just the act of engaging in physical activity really helps with the process of accessing and utilizing fat for fuel. Now, you know that we are a diet neutral show, we don't emphasize one, quote unquote, diet or another. I'm a big fan of flexible dieting and using what works for you. I don't vilify carbs, I don't vilify fat, either any macros really. And we don't really get into the discussions of like, becoming a fat burner, but you know, versus carb burner in the Keto world, you know, going to ketosis, all of that. You use fat for fuel, regardless whether it's your quote, unquote, primary source, because you're short on glucose or not, you you end up using fat for fuel. And, of course, liberating fat from fat cells in the process we just talked about, that's the whole point. That's what fat loss is, is liberating fat, getting those fatty acids available as an energy source via ATP right. Now, being mobile and moving a lot and strength training. These all these activities regulate the hormones that are behind fat metabolism, like cortisol, right, you can become more adaptable to your cortisol curve, you can burn down some of that cortisol if it's too high, when you strength train, and so on. And this only improves the fat oxidation during and after exercise. So there is evidence to say that independent of a calorie deficit, you're going to be more effective at burning fat by being an active person by getting enough sleep by strength training, right. So it's kind of a it feeds on itself. Not only is it beneficial for the the building muscle aspect, and the cardiovascular aspect, it also helps you become better at burning fat. And we know of other things like the fact that if you're sleep deprived, you'll you'll store fat in the more dangerous visceral area, and things like that, that have been demonstrated by the evidence. So there's obviously some connection there. There's both the I'll say the aerobic aspect for the calorie burning aspect, like when you just walk or run or swim or cycle or anything, where you are going to burn, you're going to burn calories, and some of those are going to be fat, calories, you know, there's glucose, there's fat, you're always going to burn some fat. And it's quite a bit, you know, depending on the activity, right. And, of course, this leads to fat release and transport after you exercise. So there's some, there's some evidence that shows that fat burning goes up, even after exercise. So it's not massive, right? We never want to over blow these things. But you've probably heard that before. And so again, just it feeds on itself. Strength training, burns, fats, burns fat in multiple, okay, the primary way that I I love about it, is it increases your metabolic rate, right building muscle elevates your BMR. You know, again, not massively, but to the tune of, you know, six to 10 calories per pound of muscle, that you just burn for having that muscle. And, you know, a male can gain 30 or 40 pounds of muscle in his, like a natural, lifting career, maybe a little more. So I mean, if you had the full 40 pounds of muscle that's 400 calories a day you're burning, versus the person that doesn't just for existing, right. So that's an amazing thing. Strength training also boosts fat oxidation, which is what we were just talking about, it enhances your body's ability to use the fat, it shuttles it into your muscle cells for energy, because you need that, boom, just the act of lifting weights as a fat burning activity. And then it improves insulin sensitivity. We know this as well. It encourages, you know, obviously, muscle growth itself, it needs the insulin and the anabolic result of that insulin, and it balances the insulin activity as a result, right? You're effectively saying, Yeah, give me that blood sugar spike, or give me that extra insulin because I'm going to use it and it bounces off and therefore you become metabolically resilient and more insulin sensitive. And then it's harder for you to store fat over time. I always question statements like that, because in the right calorie surplus, you're going to store fat. But I've seen this anecdotally. And I've heard it for many, many people that the more muscle you build, just the the harder it is to gain, it seems to gain fat after you build up that muscle. And it also seems harder when you're a little bit leaner. Even though some people think it's the opposite. But it seems to be like a runaway effect when you start getting too much body fat. Whereas if you stay leaner, kind of in this nice range is healthy range. I don't know for males, let's say 10 to 20% or so, not something that's a reasonable range right there that you're kind of in an optimal area to not getting too fat more quickly than you want. It's still going to come down to how well trained you are, how much muscle you already have and what rate of gain you go, of course. Alright, so that's how activity plays into At Bat, there are a bunch of misconceptions around how our bodies burn fat that I also wanted to address. So these are, you know, common myths that I came up with. So these are four in particular, that I still hear. The first one is spot reduction. Okay, you can't do you can't target fat loss from a specific body part with a particular exercise or, or anything, right, that cells throughout your body are oxidized, like indiscriminately. One of the few, I guess caveats to that is, you can seem to gain fat in certain areas. For example, if you have if you drink more alcohol, or if you don't get enough sleep, you'll gain belly fat. And also women because of changes in hormones and Peri and post menopause like the change in estrogen may cause more belly fat storage. But again, it's it's a matter of where your body tends to store fat, you can't target the reduction of fat from a particular area without something drastic like surgery. So that's the first one. So if you're trying to reduce belly fat, or you're trying to reveal your six pack abs or whatever, the best thing to do is train your abs and lose fat. That's it when you have some lose fat. Alright, the second misconception is that fat turns into muscle that doesn't have, okay, fat and muscle are two different tissues that cannot directly convert into muscle mass. After it's lost, there are two different things that are happening potentially at the same time. Like you can be burning fat while you are building muscle. Two different things. The third one is I guess I'll call it overnight fat loss, right? Like, if your scale drops two pounds overnight, on the scale, you didn't lose two pounds of fat. Sorry, that's not what happened. Okay, you whatever fat you lost was probably equivalent to your calorie deficit. So if you're in 1000 calorie deficit for the day, okay, that's 1/7 of two pounds. Okay, so that'd be like, if you lost two pounds a week. That'd be like a seventh of that, which is a fraction, a fraction of a pound, I'm not going to do the math, right. The point is, if your scale drops by 234, or five pounds overnight, it's water, it's mostly water. Alright, the noticeable fat loss occurs over time, and it will happen over weeks and months after a cumulative calorie deficit through your diet, right, and also through, well, no exclusively through your diet. But of course, being active and burning more calories and having more muscle allows you to be in that deficit, potentially eating more food. That makes sense. There's no shortcuts, no shortcuts, right? Number four, the fourth is about rapid fat loss. So I've talked about rapid fat loss before I even have a rapid fat loss guide. And Rapid Fat Loss is a very controlled protocol done for a very short time, two weeks, two weeks at the most, where you are training really intensely, not intensely, but the intensity of your training is high, the load is high, right, the weight on the bar is high, and your protein is quite high. And you're able to hold on to most of your muscle mass while losing a bunch of fat two weeks. That's that's a controlled Rapid Fat Loss protocol. But what most people do is they lose fat way too quickly. Not using one of those protocols, but just on a regular diet or, you know, extreme restriction, or a named diet where they cut out a bunch of food groups like carbs, or cut out all, you know, plant products like carnivore, and they lose a bunch of weight very quickly. A lot of its waterways initially, but then they might lose a bunch of tissue. But the problem is, it's not all fat. In fact, probably 25% or even more is muscle muscle loss, let alone the diet not being sustainable. Right. So yeah, your weight on the scale is going to drop really quickly. If you do that, but you just lost a ton of muscle that's going to take time and effort to get back, you're gonna look skinny fat, it's not the physique you're going for at all. What's the point? Why would you do that? Don't do that. All right. So you can speed up fat loss, fat loss just will occur at the rate that it occurs. And if you push the needle too far, you're gonna start losing muscle. It's just like in the other direction, when you're trying to gain muscle, you can't speed up muscle building, by just gaining more weight, you're just gonna gain more fat, the body has limits, which it can do these days. All right, and then I mentioned briefly before, and I want to touch on it again that it is possible, especially for individuals who are training but but are still newer in their training journey to burn significant fat, not not just fat, but a significant amount of fat without necessarily losing weight through body composition, right? This occurs when you're building effectively an equal amount of muscle mass to replace the lost fat. You're not converting converting fat into muscle, but you're doing both at the same time. And so you're you're eating at this level of calories that appears to maintain your weight. But chances are it's actually more than that, because you're compensating for the fact that your body is building this extra tissue. And so it's actually burning more than it would otherwise, right? And, and that's why body recomp can be deceptive. So some people, when they start lifting, they're like, their waist goes down, they start getting stronger, and but they're not gaining or losing weight. So that could be happened, for sure. And I mentioned why before, it's because your body thinks it's in a little bit of a deficit. Because it doesn't have enough energy leftover after the body uses what it means to build muscle, the more advanced you are, the less this is going to happen, because muscle gets added at a much slower rate in more advanced trainees, and therefore, the comparison of muscle gain to fat gain is lopsided, like you can't gain that much muscle in that scenario. So you're either just not going to gain much muscle have maintenance, or you're going to have to be in a slight deficit, I'm sorry, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to gain weight to build muscle, or you're going to primarily lose fat, even when you're at meat, so not gonna build much muscle. Okay, I hope I explained all that. When it comes to body fat in general, body measurements, like your waist circumference, you know, how you look how you feel in your clothes, things like that are gonna give you better insight than either the scale or some sort of body fat measurement device, which are very inaccurate. So I'm not going to get into that on today's episode. But if you're curious about more, you can always reach out and ask me, Hey, how can I measure my body fat? Okay, practical takeaways. I want to conclude with that. So the first, the first big takeaway is tracking.
Philip Pape 31:25
How often have I mentioned this, and people don't do it. I have people reach out to me all the time saying, like, I I can't lose weight no matter how little I. And my first question is, are you tracking? No, no, no, I'm not tracking, it's tedious or whatever other excuse, insert excuse here. Alright, well, come back to me. After you track for about three or four weeks go use Mac, go download macro factor, use my code, Wits, & Weights, best app around it dynamically adjust your metabolism, you will know very quickly what you're putting in your mouth quality, how much protein, all of that even if you don't try to hit targets just to be aware just to get that you know, level of awareness, then you can use that same tool to be very precise with your fat loss phase and be very confident that you're going to get there in a reasonable amount of time without floundering around and constantly hitting plateaus. The second thing related to that is going at the proper rate of loss. We mentioned earlier that rapid fat loss is not sustainable, and it kill it reduces muscle mass, we want to keep that rate of loss between a quarter and 1% per week. Okay, strength training is a must period. If you listen to the show, you should be strength training. I'm not gonna say by now if it's the first episode you ever listen to go check out a bunch of my other episodes and, and kind of get the bug for why training is pretty much a necessity for everyone on this planet. If you want to be strong fit and have great body composition as well and have good health. But you have to be strength training with progressive overload. You want to be walking. To some extent, you know, eight to 12,000 steps is reasonable. For most people, it's a great target. You're not there yet, work your way up over time by incorporating fun activities that gets you those steps. And then other cardio is really kind of optional, but in certain scenarios. During fat loss, it can be helpful to add a little bit to the calorie burn. Prioritizing sleep prioritizing recovery, prioritizing yourself care. And of course, eating plenty of protein, and eating in a sustainable way that lets you get through the diet without feeling too miserable. Because it's not the most fun to be dieting. It's not like a walk in the park. But it should be as easy as you could make it and if you missed it or you want to go back in the archives. One of our most popular episodes is that covers all of this much more detail is episode 40 Episode 40 Everything you need to know about fat loss simple strategies for a fitter leaner body. Again, just search for episode 40 and have a listen for my detailed breakdown on fat loss. Alright, so to sum it all up fat burning is it's complex biologically, it doesn't have to be that complex practically. So biologically, it's this dance of hormones, of enzymes of intracellular transport, respiration, metabolic processes, all these things that happen that unlock that pesky store fat from your fat cells to create energy that then eliminates waste products for from your body in the form of co2 and water, ultimately resulting in both weight and fat loss. Okay, so before we sign off, I did want to mention that among our free guides are three that are related to fat loss that you might be interested in. And I might be adding more soon here. One is on Rapid Fat Loss one is on female fat loss, and one is on fat loss refeeds but again, if you want just the big picture and fat loss, go check out episode 40. If you want one of these three guides, check them out at wits & weights.com/free or click the link in the show notes. So you can always just go to wits & weights.com and click free stuff at the top as well. And you can find all the free guides with more being added all the time. Okay, so I hope you enjoyed the little bit of science a little bit of practical, a little bit of bit of myth busting, like we do on the show. And in our next episode 147 A brand new way to workout at home with Josh York. Discover the journey behind this interesting company called gym guys. And it's unique in home training model. You'll learn about Josh's intense, and I mean intense, and he's an intense guy, his intense personal health regimen and how he balances everything, his views on the fitness industry, and of course, some practical strategies for training building muscle and optimizing your fitness. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 145: Bryan Boorstein on Failure Training, Intensity, Home Gyms, Specialization, and Cardio
Have you ever wondered how to maximize muscle growth while saving time? Tune in as Bryan Boorstein reveals intensity techniques that’ll transform your workouts! Philip is joined by Bryan Boorstein, the mastermind and training genius. His extensive knowledge of training methods takes center stage as he delves into captivating topics. From lengthened partials to maximizing metabolic stress and from intensity techniques for efficient workouts to ideas for leg movements in a limited home gym, Bryan shares insights that will elevate your fitness game.
Have you ever wondered how to maximize muscle growth while saving time? Tune in as Bryan Boorstein reveals intensity techniques that’ll transform your workouts!
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) is joined by Bryan Boorstein, the mastermind and training genius. His extensive knowledge of training methods takes center stage as he delves into captivating topics. From lengthened partials to maximizing metabolic stress and from intensity techniques for efficient workouts to ideas for leg movements in a limited home gym, Bryan shares insights that will elevate your fitness game.
As a true “Renaissance Man” of health and fitness, Bryan’s training approach seamlessly integrates elements from bodybuilding, powerlifting, and athleticism. His content and coaching exude knowledge, nuance, and infectious passion, all aimed at helping YOU optimize your physique and performance.
With 25+ years of training experience, Byran collaborates with top athletes. As founder of Evolved Training Systems and Paragon Training Methods, he offers goal-oriented online programs for strength, physique, and skill development. Bryan co-hosts the Eat Train Prosper podcast, sharing practical strategies on nutrition, training, mindset, and lifestyle. His philosophy blends science, experience, and intuition for effective workouts.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
3:20 Lengthened partials - Bryan’s take
9:06 Failure training vs. effective reps - resolving the debate
15:59 Failure vs. submaximal training
24:21 Metabolic stress techniques - favorites and periodization
30:33 Strength vs. hypertrophy training
35:43 Building legs without machines
49:32 Optimizing cardio for muscle growth
58:09 Basic specialization approach
1:02:20 The question Byran wished Philip had asked
1:04:19 Outro
Episode resources:
Instagram: @bryanboorstein – Tons of programs
Episode summary:
Philip Pape invites training expert Brian Borstein to share his extensive knowledge on enhancing physical self-mastery. The episode unfolds with a deep dive into the intersection of cardiovascular fitness and muscle recovery, which, when balanced correctly, can amplify muscle development. Brian enlightens us on the concept of stretch-mediated hypertrophy, where exercises are performed in a muscle's stretched position, a technique that can maximize tension and muscle growth. They explore the benefits of lengthened partials, metabolic stress, and intensity techniques that could revolutionize home gym workouts for leg day.
Brian brings a fresh perspective on cardio, once thought to detract from muscle gains, now understood to be a synergistic component when properly programmed. Cardiovascular work is not only an integral part of fitness and fat loss, but also plays a crucial role in enhancing recovery and allowing for increased gym volume. In this insightful conversation, Brian and Philip dissect the effective reps model, the concept of training to failure, and the merits of personalized workout regimes. They share their personal victories across various training volumes, laying out a roadmap for listeners to tailor their path to fitness success.
As they continue, the focus shifts to the evolution of training methods and intensity techniques. Philip recounts his journey through various fitness programs, from the high-intensity MaxOT to the sub-failure efficiency of CrossFit, and the influence of the evidence-based fitness movement. They touch on the mental and physical challenges presented by intensity techniques like rest-pause and drop sets, emphasizing the need for balance and a sustainable approach that maintains health for lifelong fitness.
Moving into practical application, the episode details how to optimize quad and hamstring training with adjustments for different gym environments. Brian provides actionable tips for those limited to home gyms or commercial gym settings, demonstrating how innovative methods, like the foam roller hack squat, can mimic experiences one might get from professional gym equipment. He further discusses the relevance of single-leg exercises and their versatility in targeting specific muscle groups.
The conversation takes a turn towards the relationship between cardio and muscle gains, busting myths surrounding the interference effect. They delve into recent research that underscores the complementarity of cardiovascular and resistance training, emphasizing improved fitness, recovery, and adaptation from workouts. Brian shares his personal experiences with zone two heart rate training, a measure of cardiovascular fitness that can indicate better mitochondrial function.
Lastly, they explore strategies for body part specialization within a training program, discussing the concept of rotating specialization cycles to focus on volume for targeted muscle groups. The discussion includes practical implementation advice, adjusting exercise order, and proximity to failure to achieve the best results for physique optimization.
This episode is a treasure trove of knowledge for anyone looking to elevate their fitness regimen. Brian Borstein's insights and Philip Pape's engaging discussion provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the latest strategies in muscle growth, cardio synergy, and the art of personalized training. As they conclude, listeners are left with a wealth of information to apply to their workouts and a motivation to push the boundaries of conventional fitness wisdom.
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Transcript
Bryan Boorstein 00:00
It seems intuitively that if you're able to increase your cardiovascular fitness at least to like a decent base level, that this then improves your recovery adaptations allows you to do more volume in the gym and thus you know elicit better gains across the board.
Philip Pape 00:16
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm joined by mastermind and training genius Brian Borstein. I brought Brian on the show to share with you his vast knowledge on train methods. And we're gonna get into some fun topics like lengthen partials, maximizing metabolic stress intensity techniques to save time and ramp up muscle growth, ideas for leg movements and a home gym. His nuanced and Recently Updated thoughts on cardio and how to specialize your training to get jacked and swell in all the right places. Brian Borstein is a renaissance man of health and fitness. His approach to training combines the best of bodybuilding powerlifting, and athleticism. And he always brings knowledge, nuance and infectious passion into his content and coaching to help you optimize your physique and performance. With over 25 years of training experience, Brian has worked with some of the world's top athletes. He's the founder of evolved training systems and Paragon training methods, offering online goal oriented training programs for strength, physique, and skill at all levels. He's also co hosts of one of my favorite shows, eat train prosper, along with Aaron Stryker, where he shares practical strategies on nutrition training, mindset and lifestyle. Ryan's philosophy combines science experience and intuition to create effective and enjoyable workouts. He's also an intellectually curious dude who takes knowledge from multiple fields, everything from neuroscience and psychology to elite athletic coaching, and even philosophy and he makes cross disciplinary connections that would elude narrower minds. Brian challenges the myths and assumptions in the fitness industry and today he brings his formidable intellect to Wits & Weights, to share his wit and wisdom to empower you to become your best self. So if you self identify as an athlete, aspiring athlete, or you're just a seeker of excellence and personal growth, get ready to learn and be inspired by the master the innovator Brian Borstein. Welcome to the show, Brian.
Bryan Boorstein 02:37
Hey, man, you know, I had high expectations coming in and and you exceeded them. So, you know, that is that is a great trait upon yourself to be able to go in with high expectations and then come out, still exceeding them. So I appreciate the introduction. I'm glad to be here. And yeah, thank you for having me.
Philip Pape 02:56
Yeah, we were joking before because when I reached out to Brian, just for the listener knows what the epic introductions. I sent him a funny video some of my past intros. He's like, ah, the bar is really high, man, you gotta you gotta top that. So Challenge accepted. And, and well deserved. So anyway, you know, I want to jump right into some of the topics. I think the audience will get to know you what you do and your philosophy through our conversation. And I just want to start with lengthen partials. This is a technique where also called long length partials and I think Stretch, stretch mediated hypertrophy, where you perform only the bottom half the exercise, right where the muscles are most stretched. And the intent is to increase tension to produce more hypertrophy. My question for you is do you use these in your personal training? And then do you find them effective?
Bryan Boorstein 03:42
Yeah, you know, I started using them and experimenting with them back in, I want to say 2019, maybe it was early 2020. But there was this initial study by Mao and colleagues that came out around that same time and ascent, it was the first one of this era of research to kind of promote the benefit of lengthen partials or not even LinkedIn partials per se, but that there is benefit to training at long muscle lengths. And so in this study, what they did is they simply compare to a seated leg curl in a hip flexed position, where the hamstring is pre stretched to a lying leg curl in which the hamstring is not pre stretched, and transited shorter muscle legs. And the most interesting part of this whole study wasn't just that the hamstrings grew more from the seated leg curl. It was actually that three of the hamstring muscles grew more from the seated leg curl, but the was it the chrysalis. There was one specific hamstring muscle, the one that wraps around, it's not the chrysalis. It'll come back to me. But one specific hamstring muscle grew more on the lying leg curl Sartorius it was a Sartorius and it's because the sartorius is actually more lengthened, more stretched out in the line. Lying leg curl. So three of them grew more in the seated leg girl because they're more stretched out. And one of them grew more in the lying leg curl because it is more stretched out. And I am always one to jump on things early not to sit there and try and promote to the world that this is the greatest thing. And like one study says we need to do this. So everybody needs to train with these stretch mediated movements, more just that I had been training 20 years at that point. And the opportunity to experiment with something new, was really exciting to me. And so I began training with this notion of long muscle lengths at that time. And then that progressed very quickly from the next sequence of studies that came through that actually did compare lengthen partials to full range. In fact, the next study that I was privy to was Pedrosa and colleagues. And they compared leg extensions that were done at five different ranges of motion, but the only three of them are really important. So they compared one group that did full range of motion leg extensions, one group that just did the bottom of the leg extension up to 50, or 60 degrees of range of motion, or 50 to 60% of the range of motion, it was up to 150 degrees, maybe 140, something like that. And then the third group only did the the short range of motion. So they went from that, like 130 degrees of knee flexion, all the way up to 180, where the legs would be straight, and they just did the top half. And so the the group that did the bottom half only outperformed not just the short muscle length group, but also outperformed the full range of motion muscle group, muscle range group. So at that point, I was like, fully, and that was 2000 22,021. And I began experimenting with them in pretty much all of my movements at that point.
Philip Pape 06:47
And I mean, so just for the average guy who's you know, running a standard hypertrophy Program, or 40, split or something like that, do you recommend adding them in replacing sets with them doing a more for isolation work versus, you know, some bigger lifts because I know, Jeff nippert and others, you know, post content about this all the time, and he's doing them with squats. So what are your general recommendations there?
Bryan Boorstein 07:07
Yeah, I've been a little slower to jump on the bandwagon for lengthen partials for movements that are already lengthened. And so for that, you know, we have movements like an RDL. We have movements like a squat, we have movements, like dumbbell bench press, things like that. And so in my mind, for the first few years of this experimentation, I was thinking, Why would I need to do a lengthen partial on a movement that is already lengthened, overloaded, it's biased to that range of motion already. And even now, I have been experimenting with those, I still mostly feel the same way that you know, there might be very, very, very slight benefit to doing lengthen partials in those movements. But because it is lengthen, overloaded, all the real benefit is by doing a lengthen partial there is spending more of your time under tension in the length and range. Whereas I think a movement that is short overloaded in nature, think, pull downs, rows, leg extensions, leg curls, things like that. Lateral Raises are another really good one, if you're spending the majority of your time or the movement is hardest in the short position, it seems to me that there would be even extra benefit in doing lengthen partials there, and or going to failure at the full range and then letting range of motion drop off as fatigue increases. Ya
Philip Pape 08:34
know, it's interesting, because I have friends that are that are, you know, swear by it. And it's not like it's, it's easier, necessarily, especially when you're doing like you said, for movements that are already lengthen, you know, if you try squats, you realize that, like you said, you're just constantly under tension, it's pretty hard. So it's just trying to, you know, these nuanced things, like you said, they're the become hot topics in the industry, everybody wants to try them, but they're not, you know, they're not gonna replace what's tried and true there may be going to enhance and optimize. So alright, yeah, I was just curious about that. Cool. All right. So another topic that's that's big these days. And you you recently posted about it is the effective reps model, you know, failure training, but specifically the idea that only those last few reps, you know, before failure are the ones that actually count are the ones actually stimulate muscle growth. And for various reasons, the motor motor unit recruitment, the velocity slowing down, whatever. And yet, you pointed out that you can still see effectiveness by modifying volume, even when you're using low or IR which isn't in that range that regime. You in your post, you concluded by saying the following quote, There are many roads to Rome, hypertrophy is extremely forgiving, and that you can train in a variety of ways and achieve hypertrophy. Just make sure the big rocks are satisfied, sufficient effort, sufficient volume, sufficient recovery. So doubling down for us. What are your thoughts on the effective reps model without a four hour podcast and always
Bryan Boorstein 09:59
Yeah, this was from a four hour podcast by data driven strength. And so for anybody that wants the full unabridged version, you can go check that one out. But yeah, I mean, you know, I get questions from young kids all the time in my DMs or elsewhere on the podcast, whatever. And they're always really obsessed with these super nuanced topics like long muscle length training, or like training to failure versus volume, or volume being the primary driver of hypertrophy and all of these things. And at some level, that matters, eventually. But I think that what gets you the most benefit, and probably who's going to take you to 98, or 99% of your genetic potential, is just going to be doing it for a really long time, doing a decent amount of volume, and working pretty damn hard. And recovery is a necessary evil that comes along with that, right? The more work you do, the harder you do that work, the more you have to recover. Another thing that these kids often forget to consider is that they want to do this for life, potentially, they don't just want to get jacked in five years, and then be like, oh, sweet, I'm jacked. Now I can stop training as hard. And I can just go like, be jacked. And that's not really the way this works. I mean, it's a, it's a lifelong game. And for somebody that's been doing it for 25 years, there's a sustainability piece to this as well. And so even if we can look at this new envious study that came out, where it's like, oh, 52 sets to failure per muscle group per week, is gonna get you the most jacked. People fail to look at that, and extrapolate out and back up and say, okay, even if during six or eight weeks, or whatever that study was, the people that worked up to 52 sets did get more jacked than the people that were doing less sets, you got to think of the long term and what does 52 sets a week to failure due to your motivation? What does it do to your joint structures? What does it do to all of the elements that go into creating a lifelong commitment to this endeavor? And so I think, dialing that back to back to the effective reps model is that there are many ways to rope. I have heard so many stories in the trenches from people that swear that, you know, they were doing high volume training. And when they cut their volume back, and they just started going to failure on one or two hard sets, their physiques completely changed. And then I've heard the exact opposite, where people were going to fail, you're doing one too hard, too hard sets per muscle group. And they're like, everything changed when I started doing high volumes and stopped going so close to failure. And I've heard enough of these stories that I just believe them, I think the literal Right, right. Everybody's right, everybody's getting jacked, and everybody's doing things. And so ultimately, my sense of this is that whatever method it is, that speaks to you, and keeps you motivated to train and keeps your body healthy, is probably the one you should do. And so for many people, that's, you know, hey, going close to failure, maybe your form gets compromised, and you end up tweaking your shoulder, tweaking your low back, jacking up your knees squatting, whatever it is, maybe you're not the type of person that should be doing one or two hard sets to failure for each muscle group, maybe you'd be much better off doing 20 to 30 sets at four to six RSR whatever. And so, you know, kind of dialing it back to that actual study. And the thoughts on the effective reps model is the effective reps model essentially states that the closer you get to failure, the more stimulus you get. And I don't really think that that's arguable. Right? Right. The part of it that is arguable are the people. And there's plenty of them out there that say that nothing prior to five reps from failure is stimulative. And that's kind of kind of absurd to even like I almost like struggle to even fathom that, that somebody could say that, because they're literally saying at that point that somebody could do 100 sets, but because they're all at six reps from failure, that they're not going to get any gains. And like, you can just look across the board through anecdote at the way football players have trained for years or the way Olympic lifting athletes train like explosive athletes, and they almost never go to failure. They're just idling technique gets all submaximal work styling technique. All these people are jacked. And so yeah, I think that, you know, there's a number of misconceptions out there about that. But the one thing that isn't arguable is the closer you get to failure, you get more stimulus. But what you do with that is up to you and how many sets you decide to do is going to be dependent upon how close to failure you train.
Philip Pape 14:40
Yeah. And the reason I'm asking you all these is it is kind of a little bit of a bait, but you knew it was coming because that's what you get all the time to get into these other principles of why these things matter. I think Eric helms said recently on his show, like science looks at the norm right looks at the population mean, no matter how big of a sample size you have, what the takeaways are, what may work for most people most of the time, well, that leaves a huge percentage of people that it doesn't work for, like you said, and it's going to vary. So number one experiment right over time, don't just assume that one thing is going to work for you. And I'm sure you see that as somebody who programs, you know, for people, but keeping your body healthy, you know, I didn't start this young, like you or maybe others have, there's a lot of folks who listen here just getting into this, like in their 40s, or 50s. And whether you started young or not, recovery is a huge issue. And you know, we get injuries and surgeries and life and stress and all these things that pile on, I would rather find something that is modest volume, slightly submaximal. That doesn't kill the joints, but still gives me like you said, the 98% progress. A friend of mine, were joking about these nuanced things that the 20 year olds bring up or like that that might be for the point zero 1% elite, that's not you. Like that's just shut up? At least not yet. Now, yeah, not now. Go for it. But it's not yet. Right. So have your views changed at all over the years on the failure versus submaximal training, like, as you've aged, and as you've trained all this time? Yeah, I've actually gone through
Bryan Boorstein 16:08
a number of iterations of training philosophies through my life. So I have a number of different experiences. If you don't mind, I'll just take you through like, very brief version of it. But when I first started in 1997, I stumbled across a group on a community chat board at the time, if you know, there wasn't social media, so it was a easy board. And the group was called power in bulk. And the big voice in power in bulk at the time was a gentleman named Paul Carter. And we all know Paul Carter. Now, Paul Carter is a very antagonizing voice in the industry. And I think that, you know, I personally don't agree with a lot of what he says these days. But one thing that he did that I really think was great for me starting out was he told me back in the late 90s, to basically pick six big movements. And it was a it was a horizontal push a horizontal pole, a vertical push a vertical pole, a squat and a hinge. And he was like, just do those six movements get brutally strong at them, when you can, you know, bench 300, squat, 400, deadlift, 500, then you can start thinking about body part splits and volume manipulation and all of these things. And I thought that was incredible advice. And so that's exactly what I did. If you fast forward about 15 years, I found him on Instagram, seven or eight years ago, and I was like, Hey, dude, like, thanks so much for that great advice you gave me so many years ago, you know, and he goes, Oh, that was stupid advice. I would never give that advice again, you know, and I was like, Well, I thought I thought it was really good advice. But anyway, so I did that for three or four years, basically, three times a week, full body with those six big movements spread across the week. And I got great results. Nothing to complain about. I learned how to train hard and it was super important, mostly like kind of five by five or three by eight type stuff. And then after that I got distracted by the muscle magazines would probably be the best way of saying that as as many of us do. And I followed some of the like Muscle and Fitness body parts splits for a while. But luckily, I then stumbled across a program called Max O T. And God, are you familiar with Maximus? You know, I haven't heard of that one. Alright, cool. So Max O T is a program, you actually can still find it online at as T sports science. It is a body part split program. But what they promoted was low volumes, so is six to nine sets per week per body part. So it's like, you know, Monday's chest day, Tuesday's back day, Wednesday's legs type thing. But it was six to nine hard sets per muscle group, and everything was in the four to six or four to eight rep range. Depending on isolation movements were like the eight, six to eight rep range. But all compounds were four to six. And every set was taken to absolute failure. But because the proximity, or because the volume was low, you could get away with taking all these movements to failure. And then they also did something that was pretty unique at the time, which is that they promoted a D loader Recovery Week, every eight to 10 weeks. So this program I ran off and on literally until 2009, I would say I ran that program off and on for like six to eight years. And I thought it was extremely productive. The best gains that I made through my entire training history was was on Maxa tea. I think that could have been partially because that's when I was turning into a man. And you know, I was eating a bunch of food at the dining hall at college and all that stuff. Yeah, you can't just just give credit to the program. But it did happen to to be that timeframe. After that, I found CrossFit in 2009. And I went through about seven years of competing and coaching in CrossFit. And so that was a completely different stimulus to anything I had done prior. Pretty much everything you do in CrossFit is sub failure because it's all about maximizing efficiency over Time. So that was definitely different. And then when I popped out of CrossFit in 2016, there was this whole new evidence based sphere. And it didn't exist. In the past. There wasn't Brad Schoenfeld and all of these different research RCT research controlled designs and, and all of this stuff. And so I became obsessed with it as as the nerdy science brain that I have. I was like, Oh, my God, like my brain was exploding 20 years into training, I was like, felt like a newbie in the gym again. And the first thing I stumbled across was RP. And Mike is retail. And so that was really my first experience into purposefully not training to failure, and purposefully trying to prioritize volume over proximity to failure stimulus
Philip Pape 20:45
to fatigue ratio. Yeah,
Bryan Boorstein 20:47
yeah, exactly. And, you know, working on exercise selection as an important component, like, does this exercise give me better stimulus to fatigue and that exercise, and so it opened up this whole new world of framing how I was training. And so that was interesting, because I found myself continually trying to push volume. And the way that they programmed at RP and they still do is to the best of my knowledge, is they start mesocycles, far from failure, and then they progress them closer and closer to failure until you reach a point where you're basically at failure, you fatigue is super sky high, and then you d load you recycle and repeat. And so I did that for about two years. And I think it was fine. I, I, I would say that if anything, I lost motivation. It was like the volume was so high, and the fact that you could start a mesocycle at one hour of training. And by the time you add volume, and add proximity to failure and all this stuff, you finish a mesocycle. And your sessions are taking two hours. And they're doubly as hard as they were in the beginning. And so to me, that didn't make a ton of sense. Then I kind of went the other way, and began slowly reducing volume and slowly working closer to failure, which has sort of settled me on the philosophy that I've used for the last few years now where, for the most part, I stick between six to 10 sets per body part per week. And one thing I actually do that I think is semi unique is I took from the RP approach is this progression of proximity to failure across the cycle. And I also in a sense, progressive volume, but I do it very differently than they did. So they would progress it by adding sets week to week, what I tend to do is I add intensity. So we'll go from two reps from failure to one rep from failure to failure by week three, and then on movements that are conducive to it, we'll go into partials and then we'll do rest pause sets. And then we'll do drop sets, and then we'll do lengthened sets. And so each week from three on, we're adding intensity techniques to further bias the length and position to further add stimulus. But we're not doing it by adding a full set, we're just adding like a little teeny dose of stimulus. And, and I've found this to be extremely productive for me. And for clients for the last three years or so.
Philip Pape 23:11
Man, there's so much there. And I could identify with a lot because of your age. And when you've been alive, you're sort of at the ground floor of all of these shifts that we've seen over the last 20 years, from the muscle magazines to the training with the maxilla team and I was in CrossFit for eight years myself. So I get it I started at around 2011 and wasn't very consistent with it. But first time I ever touched a barbell was in CrossFit. So give them credit for that. It's funny because it sounds like you've come a little bit full circle back to the max O T stuff you were doing the 60s and like roughly the same volume per body part, roughly the same kind of in that low end hypertrophy, high end strength range, let's call it you know, my coach is Andy Baker, you probably know any Baker. He's been on the show a few times. But a lot of what you're talking about reminds me of like conjugate style programming does a little bit of that, right? Where you're testing your one RMS to get the intensity, but then you have this dynamic work. That's at a much lower, you know, that's submaximal later in the week. Anyway, it's cool stuff. So with the RP, Renaissance periodization stuff, that's that's all RPE based, right? You were saying? Yeah, well, I
Bryan Boorstein 24:14
mean, that's what I started back when I came out of CrossFit like 2016 1718 That was kind of my RP time. Yeah.
Philip Pape 24:20
So then you mentioned intensity technique. good segue. You've been recently talking about that a lot, too. And I love that stuff, too. Man, the rest, pause the dog crap, rest, pause and drop sets and things like that. So you've been talking about metabolic stress intensity techniques, techniques, like mile reps and drop sets. Why is that principle important? Is it mainly for saving time and taking advantage of the training to failure theory we just talked about or is it? You know, is there another reason to incorporate them?
Bryan Boorstein 24:47
Yeah, you know, I think metabolic stress is certainly a piece of doing rest pause sets and drop sets that that you wouldn't get by just doing straight sets. But I do. I do. would say what you said May is probably more of the reasons in that, it ensures that you're close to failure, especially for clients like intermediate clients that I'm working with that really need to know where failure is, there's nothing like getting them to failure, then making them do rest, pause or drop sets, drop sets can be a little tough, you don't want to drop too much weight, or else it just becomes they're not really reaching failure because of metabolic fatigue, or mental fatigue. It's just like it burns too much. It's like cardio. Yeah, exactly. But when I do drop sets, I tend to drop very little. So the typical drop that you see in studies is like 30 to 40%, I'll usually drop 20%, at most. And so it's usually getting about the same amount of reps that you would get from a rest pause. So if I'm doing a set of eight reps to failure, close to failure, and then I do a rest, pause, where it's 20 seconds rest, I might get three reps, maybe four, if I do a drop set, and I dropped 20%, but I don't take any rest, it's basically the same thing, you're getting four, maybe five reps. So you're still in that zone, where you can actually be confident that you're hitting failure without it being because you're mentally weak, or it burns too much, or it's metabolic fatigue, or something like that. So I love both of those. For that reason, I also love them for time saving, which you also noted, because, you know, everything comes back around in the industry like drops, this used to be so popular in the muscle mag days, you would always be like 10 864 Plus drop set back to the 10 rep weight, like that was that was the way we trained, you know, 26 for increasing weight, you hit a setup for failure, dropped the weight back to the 10 go to failure, again, that was so standard, and it was so effective. And then there was this this period of time and the evidence based space where it seemed as if drop sets got this really bad rap because you're reducing load, which means you're reducing mechanical tension. And mechanical tension is the primary driver of hypertrophy, or whatever. But in reality, my statement is always the muscle is a dumb piece of meat. And it only knows tension. And it doesn't know if you're like this, this is an example, if you're doing a hack squat or some sort of squat pattern movement, and you're taking long as rests at the top of every rep, you can do more weight. But that doesn't mean you're getting more mechanical tension that if you did constant tension reps and therefore used less weight, your your muscles only know the tension that they're receiving. And so when you look at it from that perspective, things like drop sets and rest pause sets and these other intensity methods that force weight reduction, they should be in theory just as effective as doing the straight sets with higher quote, mechanical tension, because you're using higher loading, right? And it seems like the new studies are showing that man, if you look at I think it was Max Coleman was part of the group that led the recent study on drop sets and meta analysis. And they found basically the same thing that I mean, I could be misquoting this, but I think it was five sets of one top set plus four drops was the same as doing three straight sets. Which if you think about it, man, like that's a way faster approach that way faster. Yeah, do a set rest three minutes, do a set rest three minutes, right, you can do one top set, drop that shit four times, and you get the same effect as doing three straight sets. So at least when it comes to hypertrophy, I have been a huge fan of those techniques. And then the other thing I've been using a lot is the progression into lengthened work. So many people that are into lengthened work, they use it from the get go and week one, it's like, Hey, we're biasing this lengthen position go. I really think it's something that you can use as a tool to elicit a higher stimulus throughout a mesocycle. So why not get those easy gains in the beginning in weeks 123 When you're sensitive to the stimulus, and then use the lengthen work more as a tool to increase that stimulus as the mesocycle drags on. Man,
Philip Pape 28:54
I love all that just even the fact that you can use these techniques to teach yourself about failure. You know, my coach has a lot of these programmed in just yesterday I was doing earlier in the week, xe presses with rest pause and it's like, you get 10 then you get five then you maybe get to you know, on that last set, you're just like I can't lift it. So obviously there's some stress there and some and you get a pump and everything so it makes sense.
29:19
My name is Tony, I'm a strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells he trains heavy you notice that he has made but he trains heavy so if you talk with him about getting in better shape eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you You talk with him and help you out thanks.
Philip Pape 30:04
Descending sets are another one actually where you know, you work in a rep range, and you simply drop the weight 10% with the full rest period. So, rather than an intensity technique, you were talking about the fact that we should still be able to get just as much hypertrophy even at a lower weight, a lower load. That's another example that comes to mind. That's not an intensive technique, right? But you can at least let's say you're, you're in the eight to 12 range, and you hit eight or nine reps, you drop the weight after the rest period, and now you still hit it eight or nine, you're still training close to failure just had a lighter weight. What's the counter argument, though? You mentioned for hypertrophy, what about the argument that intensity has its own benefits in terms of load for, say, motor recruitment? Is that reserved mainly for strength and specificity in that regime, like with the big movements, or whatever? Yeah,
Bryan Boorstein 30:50
I mostly speak from a hypertrophy angle. And so I'm getting the sense of the fact that you work with Andy Baker, I'm getting the sense that you have more strength or neural based goals along the way,
Philip Pape 31:01
which I'm actually running his bodybuilding track right now. Okay, personally, it's a six day like a lot of what you're taught, okay, actually, but yeah, but like,
Bryan Boorstein 31:08
even conjugate and stuff like that, like, I don't use I don't touch conjugate type stuff. But yeah, I mean, everything that I come from, from my perspective is in optimizing hypertrophy. And so if we're talking strength, or neural adaptations, or skill development, or anything along those lines, yeah, the game changes for sure, I mean, rest becomes extremely important, because you need to optimize efficiency. And if your like, the biggest problem I see with strength work is people going too close to failure. And when they go too close to failure, they're compromising their motor recruitment. Like, you can just imagine, you know, what a deadlift looks like at rep eight to failure versus rep one, when you're seven reps from failure. And there's not a single person in the world that can make rep eight look exactly the same as rep one, or maybe like, you know, professional powerlifters. And whatever can but but the majority of people out there, there's going to be something that is compromised in the technique, even if it doesn't look like it to the naked eye, even on camera. There's something internally, that joint angles are just slightly shifting, different muscle groups are coming in to do the job. And so it seems to me from what I understand of the research, that the strength gains are just better, manifested further from failure. And I remember a study a number of years ago, that compared four sets of 10, to five sets of and noted to five sets of 10 to 10, sets of five or something along those lines, it was something where the volume was matched. But the group that was doing the sets of five was using their 10 rep max. And what they found was that hypertrophy was relatively equivalent across the groups, I think the group that was going to failure at 10 rep sets actually did better. But the group that was doing the sets of five, with five RSR on each set, they got significantly better strength gains. And so that just speaks to exactly what I'm saying. I mean, you just have to move perfectly. My basketball coach used to always say, practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect and bad practice makes bad habits permanent. And and I think that that applies to, to to strength training as well.
Philip Pape 33:20
So is there is there a logical leap from that to say to saying that, maybe you don't need deadlifts in your programming, if you're going for hypertrophy, like and I'm just making a big logical leap. Right, but because it's such a big taxing movement that requires that motor, you know, yeah, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, no,
Bryan Boorstein 33:40
I don't program deadlifts for for clients. I haven't programmed to deadlift for a hypertrophy client. In since I left CrossFit, really, I mean, literally, it was Mike is retelling the Renaissance periodization group back in 2016 17. When I started following that, they were big on that train of why would you do deadlifts when you can do RDLs or stiff legged deadlifts and get more for the target muscle with less fatigue to the other muscle groups stimulus to fatigue ratio, right. And so yeah, I haven't programmed deadlifts. I don't personally do deadlifts. I brought them back into a cycle for myself during a strength cycle maybe two or two and a half years ago. And for like, two weeks, I was like, Yeah, deadlifts. This is awesome. I haven't done deadlifts for so long. And then by week three, I was like, What am I doing? Like I am so taxed.
Philip Pape 34:30
There's so toxic. Yeah. So,
Bryan Boorstein 34:33
yeah, I don't really think they have much of a place and a hypertrophy program, I think that I could program them in in an intelligent manner. And if someone was really adamant that they wanted them in there, right, they could be used as a hypertrophy movement. But it's like it's so ambiguous as to what they even train you don't know do you put it on like upper body polling day do you put it on in ham day like, like, where do you put it? Because it just it trains everything. It's true
Philip Pape 34:59
is through and and I've seen that rationale of like, sometimes they're included in that particular programs just because people want them just want to do them. Or maybe they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. It's like a power building, you know, program where you maintain some of that specificity for strength, but then also build muscle. But you're right. It's so fatiguing for us older guys, too. Like that's one of the areas you really get hit. When you do too many deadlifts. Yeah, I can tell from personal experience. Cool, man. So I know. Here's the here's another segue then since you were just talking about hamstrings and leg work is a lot of folks are working in their home gyms and I know you, you offer programming for folks who you know, online, who may be going to their own commercial gym or at home, speaking to the home gym goer, so to speak, legs are one of the toughest, at least in my experience in talking with my nutrition clients of trying to get a good well rounded workout because now you need like eight different machines, if you're trying to get everything done. Like for I personally have a vertical leg press and I have a leg developer which is more than most people have in their own gym. We have a rack and maybe maybe a leg developer. How does somebody with you know, and I joked chicken legs? Who wants to build those clauses hands, get the bigger legs? Do it at home? What are your, like two to three most effective movements or equipment or whatever? Yeah,
Bryan Boorstein 36:17
you know, okay, we just did an episode on the train, prosper where it was, it was quads training. And we cool, we basically discussed how you would optimize your quad training for a commercial gym for a home gym. And then for people that only have dumbbells. And so there's three different tiers of kind of how you could go about this. And really, what you just want to do with the home gym, is try to emulate the commercial gym as closely as you can. And so when we're like us, for legs, specifically, we're not just looking at quads, so I'll give you two or three movements for quads, two or three movements for hamstrings. Yep, cool. So for quads, the first thing is to focus on what is your big compound squatting movement going to be. And so you don't have a hack squat machine, you don't have a leg press, you don't have a pendulum squat. But we have two really cool variations that you can do at home. And the first most accessible easiest one is simply the foam roller hack squat. And this was an incredible creation that came out of COVID times basically, a you Jack a foam roller up behind your back horizontal, you put it in the bottom, crease your low back, you put your feet out in a proper squat stance, and you squat down and you grab some dumbbells off the ground, and then you just keep squatting. And the foam roller against the wall essentially acts as a back support for you. And that was a primary movement that I did for six months during the beginning of COVID. And I found that it was extremely productive for quad development. Now if you don't want to do that movement, or you want some other variation, a heels elevated back squat is an extremely quality movement as well. I love doing the heels elevated back squat with a three or four second eccentric with a two or three second pause at the bottom with your ass your ass on your ankles, basically, getting as much knee flexion forward as you can, which is the benefit of the heel wedge there. And then high bar high bar you're so high bar. Yeah, so this is this is the caveat is when you ascend up, the first thing that people want to do is stick their butt up in the air and let their torso fall over. But by doing that, all you're doing is shifting all the tension to the glutes. So what you're gonna have to do is you're gonna have to drop the weight about to 60% of what you would use for a standard back squat without a heel wedge, just doing it for load. And you're gonna now we're doing it for hypertrophy. So what I would I would, here's an example, I would squat, safe 365 For six would be my best like, just hey, I'm going to try and get strong high bar squat. When I went to the heels elevated squat the way that I just talked about it with the slow negative the pause at the bottom, the big chest coming up not making making sure my house doesn't fly up first. I dropped the weight first down to 225. And I stuck there for a few weeks. And then eventually I worked up to 265 for sets of six to eight. But that's a paltry weight compared to 365 You're literally talking like two thirds of the weight and it took me months and months to even work up to that. So I would drop the weight to 60% maybe even less dial in that form your quads will be screaming at you sounds
Philip Pape 39:22
like a man. But is that is that a do? Can you just have weightlifting shoes with plates underneath? Is that enough? Or do you need like a really steep ledge? Yeah,
Bryan Boorstein 39:30
you can do weightlifting shoes with a plate underneath that's fine. The the wedge, even the wedge that I would recommend would probably be a 20 degree wedge. And so that's not like a super super high wedge. I find for most people if you have weightlifting shoes on, you can use a 10 pound plate which isn't even that high, and that'll give you enough knee flexion for most people. If you have really bad ankle mobility, you might want to use a 25 pound plate, but now you're looking at stability concerns potentially. So you do kind of have have to walk that fine line there.
Philip Pape 40:01
And it sounds like a safety bar be a good option for this safety bar would be the best. Yeah, I
Bryan Boorstein 40:06
mean, if you have a safety bar 100% Yeah. Okay, so those are the first two quad movements. Then you have single leg squats of all varieties, you have front foot, elevated split squats, rear foot, elevated split squats, walking lunges, glute dominant, or quad dominant, and that basically just is determined by your torso and Shin angle. So just much like the heels elevated back squat. If you want to target your quads, you want your torso super high up and you want your knee super far over your toe. If you want glute dominant, you send your torso forward, almost like a hybrid RDL squat type movement. And then you try to keep your front chin vertical. And if you can keep your front chin vertical, and how to send your torso over your knee, you're gonna get a lot more glute priority from that exercise. So, so single leg squats of all varieties. And then the last quad movement that you need is something for the rec FEM. And since you don't have a leg extension machine, the go to that I always uses sissy squats. Some people aren't huge fans of sissy squats. So we'll use the reverse Nordic or some people call it the bodyweight leg extension. Kind of hard to explain, but you basically kneel on the ground with your feet behind you, and you kind of fall backwards, but you fall backwards without your hip angle changing. So your torso should form a straight line through your quads, and you fall back till your butt touches your heels, basically. And then you come forward again, without breaking your hip angle at all. Yeah, that'll
Philip Pape 41:37
really stretch out that. That quad tissue there.
Bryan Boorstein 41:39
I'm like, exactly, yeah, so those are the those three quad movements are gonna slay. And then hamstrings are not super challenging. The one thing that you really struggle with with hamstring work without a commercial gym is leg curls. And so the primary movements that we've used in this situation are different hacks to do them at home. My favorite one is actually a slider leg curl. So you put your heels on a towel on a floor, and then you'd kind of lift your hips up, and you just basically slide your feet back toward your butt and then slide your feet back out and slide your feet to where your butt and slide your feet back out. That'll get you a nice hamstring stimulus. You can also do it with banded leg curls. So you can set up a band anchored against the bottom of your power rack, and you can do lying leg curls that way. The problem with the band is it often loses tension at the length and position. And so I've found if you connect two bands together, so you have like a really thick band connected to a slightly thinner band, and then you're basically further away from the anchor point as a result of that, but it kind of evens out the resistance profile for you a little bit. And then another one you can do if you have a rower like a C two rower at home, is you can put your heels onto the seat of the rower and with your back off the edge of the back of the rower on the ground. And essentially do the same slider leg curl where their heels are coming toward you and your heels are going away from you type thing. So that'll get you that RDL stiff legged deadlifts you don't need a commercial gym. For that you just need a barbell or some dumbbells. And then if you have the ability to do any sort of, like you mentioned, a glute ham developer, that that's kind of a semi typical piece of equipment that you might have in a home gym. If you can do any sort of those hip extension, back extension type variations, that will also give you a really solid glute and ham stimulus there as well. So now you've got six exercises, three for quads and three for hams that, you know, should be really solid to get you some good gains.
Philip Pape 43:36
Those are good. And to clarify what I meant developer, it's literally just an attachment on a incline bench to do leg curls, leg extensions. Okay, which day, which is kind of chintzy because like you have to literally stack the whole thing to get to the load you want. And it's wobbly, you know, but um, I really miss the GHDs at the CrossFit gym. That's one thing that they had loads of, yeah,
Bryan Boorstein 43:58
you know, another cheap piece of home equipment that I would just encourage most people to buy if they're at home is a 45 degree hip extension. And, like, if you go on Amazon, there's models for anywhere between 102 $100 and you'll get a ton of use out of that. I mean, very, very effective. I used one for a number of years, just one of those cheap models. And just last year, I upgraded to a like really solid $500 Nicer hip extension 45 degree, but those 100 to $200 ones do the trick, and you'll get plenty of stimulus from those two.
Philip Pape 44:33
How does that compare to a 90 degree? What's what's the difference?
Bryan Boorstein 44:37
Yeah, so it's basically in where the movement is hardest. So when you're using the 90 degree like GHD, but the hardest point is going to be when your torso is horizontal to the ground. So the hardest point is going to be at the top of rep, and because of that, you're going to lose a bunch of tension at the bottom. So when you're hanging off at the at the stretched position where all the muscle is lengthened. You're just not going to get a significant stretch when you're in one Another 90 degree ones. But when you're in the 45 degree, the hardest point of the movement is actually again, where your torso is parallel to the ground. And thus, the top of the movement is actually slightly easier. So it's more of a mid range overload. And you continue to get solid stretch in your hamstrings and glutes, even at the bottom of that rep. So in most cases, if people have the option, I would prefer to have them at the 45 degree.
Philip Pape 45:23
And then last thing, going back to quads if you have a landmine attachment, which is pretty simple thing to get. What do you think of trying to emulate Hack Squats there?
Bryan Boorstein 45:32
Yes, landmine Hack Squats are great. Most people have a problem once they get strong enough getting the bar up to their shoulder. So a couple hacks there is you can put a you can slide a bench, really close to the anchor point of the landmine and then prop the landmine up against the bench. And then that way, when you walk under it, it's basically already at shoulder height. So that works pretty well or rather not at shoulder height, because then you wouldn't be able to squat with it. But you basically go under it into the bottom of the squat and then stand up. So you kind of have to mess around with the where the bench is set. Another thing you can do is you can set your landmine to sorry, I just got a call, you can set your landmine up on a J clip. So that the so that you can just load it right there and then kind of take it off the J clip onto your shoulder from there.
Philip Pape 46:20
Yeah, make make sense that Yeah, I do mine on spotter arms. Same way, you know, to get it to work. Alright, cool, man. So we want to talk about cardio as well. Yoga. Yeah, sure. Okay. Yep. Cool. Yeah. Because I know listening to your show even your own thoughts on that have evolved a little bit over time. Let's let's just break it down. Right. Because when people, there's there's camps when it comes to cardio, and I don't think there should be like, I think cardio is great, to some extent. And it all depends on your priorities. And you've talked about this as well, depends on what your goals are. But there's a lot of misconceptions about the interference effect, losing gains, you know, how do you prioritize incorporate cardio, what's the point of cardio like all of those things, as well as fat loss versus when you're not in fat loss. So I know, I just threw a lot at you, but just I know, you can handle it. What are you know,
Bryan Boorstein 47:10
cart. So interference effect, I think is something that really has changed over time. And it was a number of studies, initially, maybe seven or eight years ago that made people scared of cardio, and I can't reference them specifically at this point. But they were showing that there was in fact, an interference effect. And then there were a series of studies. More recently, in the last, I want to say three years, four years. And they demonstrated that if the programming is done in such a manner where you have a Priority A and a Priority B and one of them is I want to say taking closer to failure. But like you wouldn't take cardio to failure, it's just this idea of one you're working harder on and one you're working not as hard on, they actually can be really helpful to each other. And in fact, now it seems like it's even gone further. And you have this, this view of the bodybuilder athlete that is so under recovered and are not under recovered, but under conditioned, that they're having to rest excessively between sets. And it's not just that they're doing less volume because of this excessive rest that they need to take. But it's then bleeding over into their body's inability to get parasympathetic after the workout. So they're finishing their workout, and they're so out of shape cardiovascularly that their body stays in this heightened sympathetic nervous system state for not just hours, but days like affects you while you're sleeping. The next day, your body is literally not recovering fast enough between weightlifting sessions, because your cardiovascular fitness is so poor. And so it seems intuitively that if you're able to increase your cardiovascular fitness, at least to like a decent base level, that this then improves your recovery adaptations allows you to do more volume in the gym, and thus, you know, elicit better gains across the board.
Philip Pape 49:03
Now that that is interesting, I have to admit I hadn't heard I don't know you talk about it. I just had it didn't sink in. You know, I listened to the podcast, a million podcasts and for some reason, that exact issue of the parasympathetic nervous system and recovery. Now I'm really interested and I'm interested for selfish purposes as well because I used to be in CrossFit like I said, high vo two Max super conditioned and I've done I do way less cardio today than back then. And I work from home. So like you know, there's no excuses. I'm just saying that that's the state of things right now. First of all, how do you measure that fitness level? So that you know what you need to incorporate? Like what are the objective measures whether it's vo two max or HRV or whatever else? And then what is kind of a reasonable you know, you've got life you've got so much time you still want to be training for five, six days a week, amount of cardio to fit in to get past that threshold. Yeah,
Bryan Boorstein 49:52
I'm not so convinced that vo two max is the best variable to use because you're never actually going to Your vo two max or needing your VO two max to recover between sets or even to get parasympathetic after sessions. I think the better metric is zone two, which I think that we can use as a general viewpoint of functioning of your mitochondria. And your mitochondria are the little things, your energy cells that are working on repairing reproduction all the time, like they're always in the background, just typing away, you know, writing new code for your body. And so what I tend to use with people and with myself is the amount of watts per kilo that you can generate while keeping your heart rate in zone two. And so zone two very generally, is going to be peaked like the high end of Zone Two for most people will be 180 minus your age. And that's very, very general, I usually start people at 180 Minus fifth minus their age plus 10. And then have them work up to 180 minus the age, but I'll generally have them work. So I'm 41, we'll just say I'm 40. For easy math. 180 minus 40 is 140. So that's the top of my zone two. So I tried to do my zone to between 130 and 140 beats a minute. If I'm above 140, I feel like I'm getting into zone three. If I'm below 130, I feel like it's pretty easy sledding, and I'm probably in the high end of zone one. And so I tried to do my zone to work in that range. And then I look at what are the watts per kilo that I'm able to generate during that exercise. Now, most people may not have access to watts, that's something you would have on an exercise bike or on a rower or something like that. So essentially, there are other metrics you can use, but you just want to see the output that you have improved over time, while your heart rate stays consistent. So if I could say generate 1.5 watts per kilo, when I started, this is actually my story. My peak, zone two was 1.5 watts per kilo that was like right at the high end, I was like pushing the boundary. So I weighed 90 kilos, I could do 135 Watts, and that was my zone to now, a year and a half later, maybe almost two years, I am up to two watts per kilo. So I'm doing about 180 to 190 watts. And my heart rate is still in the same range, right in that 130 to 140. So I've essentially improved by 33%, or something along those lines. And I've noticed along that same trend, significant improvements in recovery time, sleep quality, HRV resting heart rate, general sense of well being energy throughout the day, ability to focus, all of these kinds of subjective metrics that we feel on a day to day basis have improved as my zone two has improved. Got
Philip Pape 53:01
it? Okay, so no, you are you're actually I was not asking the right question. But you answered the question I was attending, which is how can you how can you measure it to see that the improvement is, you know, to go after the improvement during your activity? And then like you said, there are other measures after the fact like your HIV resting heart rate and so on that that are and biofeedback that are other indicators. Do you know if that the watts per kilo is it's not something we can measure on like a ring or watch, right? It's like one of those
Bryan Boorstein 53:26
show? No, no, but you know what, like, like, you just want to improve your n of one. And so if you have if you have a bike where you can monitor speed, like an indoor trainer bike, and it doesn't give you watts, some bikes do, but it gives you speed. And so you're like, okay, my zone too, right now is that 14.7 miles per hour, well, then you're just trying to increase from 14.7 miles per hour while keeping your heart rate consistent. So you just need to find some subject, something that's objective, some objective metric of performance that you can track on your preferred cardiovascular source modality. And then just try and look and see that go up over time. Perfect, man. Cool. Yeah.
Philip Pape 54:13
I know myself, I've been telling myself I do want to incorporate more cardio now especially get a head into a fat loss phase here after nine months of building which is, but but a lot of people ask this question all the time and my own clients, nutrition clients, it's like, no, we don't just want to walk but like, how much cardio do you do and how does it interfere or not? Now what about during fat loss when you know, recovery capacity is lower and intake is lower? How does that change if if at
Bryan Boorstein 54:41
all? Yeah, I mean, it definitely increases the interference. I mean, I so I do think that you, if if weight training or muscle mass or strength or any of those barbell pursuits, are of top priority to you, then you need to be very cognizant about where you put your cardio training. especially if it's more vo to max or interval style training, I generally consider zone to work to be somewhat cathartic, almost like a pseudo recovery modality. If you're pushing zone to work to the point that it's super fatiguing. I think you're doing it wrong, I think you're doing it too hard. So my general view is that if you're doing Zone Two, you should be able to put that more or less anywhere, although I would caution against putting it really, really close to leg training, certainly not like directly before leg training, but probably also not directly after leg training. But I think anytime like within a few hours, and having a meal in between should be fine or a separate day should be fine. Even like if your quads are sore, and you go do zone two, I don't think that's a problem. In many ways, it actually kind of helps flush some metabolites out of there and helps your recovery. So zone two, I don't think you need to be quite as specific with but any sort of interval work where your legs are really actually working against a resistance. That's not just fatiguing for your legs, it's fatiguing for your entire being like your whole body becomes fatigued, your mind comes to see there's psychological fatigue associated with it work. And that detracts from your ability to focus and put primary energy into your leg training. And then the same would apply if your cardio modality is something that works the upper body, like if you're rowing or you're doing the ski ERG or you're doing one of these other upper body dominant, not dominant, but where the upper body is a large part of the cardiovascular experience, you probably should be cognizant of that as well. Like, I probably wouldn't go row rowing intervals and then go do a back workout or something along those lines. So So yeah, I mean, there's a few things you need to be cognizant of. And then I didn't actually address one of your questions, which was what's the dose that you need to do for this? And so it's very gold dependent. You know, Peter Attia? Are you familiar with him? Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. He often talks about for health and longevity, having for zone two sessions and one like zone four zone five hit type session each week. And I think that that's kind of a high end for people whose top priority is something involved with weightlifting. I think that's great. If your goal is longevity and wanting to live the longest, healthiest life that you can, that's that's where I tend to fall these days, I've sort of gradually moved away from optimizing physique and more to optimizing, longevity and lifestyle. So I do try to hit what Peter at TSS most weeks, I think for somebody that is really trying to prioritize physiques or, or strength sport, that getting to zone two sessions is a bare minimum, and maybe one hit zone five type session. So you'd have three cardio sessions a week at that point. Cool. Yeah,
Philip Pape 58:01
I like that. All right. Cool, man. I know, we're almost out of time here. Do you have time for like one or two more questions? Sure. Yeah, go for cool. Because you did want to talk specialization briefly. And where I was going with this is a lot of folks are running, we'll call it a template program or a standard program, or even if they have a custom program, and they're just not happy with a certain part of their physique. For guys, maybe it's biceps, right, it might be back might be shoulders, what's kind of a basic specialization approach in terms of like, adding on to your program or supplanting the existing part of your training, just to accelerate a specific body part? Sure,
Bryan Boorstein 58:39
because it's kind of becomes a runaway train at that point. So what we're what I'm actually doing, Jeff hain, who is our mutual friend, he's a client of mine, I'm working one on one with Him. And so he and I have been in deep nerdy talks as we do, about how to optimize physique. And over the last couple of years, the data driven guys have been doing a lot of, and I don't want to say it's research because I don't think there are specific research studies on the topic, but intuitive analysis of, of the topic. And they've kind of ascertain this idea, that rotating specialization cycles where you dial up volume for two or maybe three muscle groups, and then dial down volume for the other five or six muscle groups would be an extremely effective way of going about this. Because we know through research that maintenance volume or the amount of volume you need to maintain gains is so low like literally studies have shown it could be as low as 30% of what it takes to get there. So say it took you 15 sets to grow your legs, you might be able to maintain your legs on five sets. So if we harness that knowledge, and we say okay, well if volume is going to help us grow more and we know we can maintain on less volume, we can jack up the volume on a few muscle group groups, pull down the volume on the remaining muscle groups and do this in kind of a cyclical manner where we spend two to four months on a few different muscle groups, and then switch the rotation, spend two to four months on some different muscle groups, et cetera, et cetera, just kind of roll through like that. And so that's been the way that Jeff and I have been approaching it. Now for a number of months, we've done a lats and triceps specialization. We're currently in a chest, biceps and lateral delts specialization. And we'll probably just continue rolling through these every few months and following those parameters. And then so in that same vein, there's a number of different levers, you can pull, we talked about volume as one, but you can prioritize proximity to failure. So you could take some movements and work them closer to failure and other movements further from failure, you could prioritize exercise order. So you could have some exercises at the beginning of the workout and others at the end. And that's one of the things we're actually using right now with Jeff is, it almost seems taboo to put bicep work before back work. But because back work is no longer a priority for us. That is literally what one of our days looks like we have three bicep movements, then we have a lateral delt movement, I think, or something a tricep movement, and then we have a back movement. So back is literally like the last thing you're working. Whereas in most cases, you would always put back first and then finish with biceps. So you can prioritize exercise order, you can do volume, you can use frequency. So you could train muscle groups more often and put other muscle groups less often. So there's a number of kind of these different levers that you can pull, and just need to figure out kind of how you want to set it up and manipulate it. Yeah,
Philip Pape 1:01:43
that makes a lot of sense, right? Especially the exercise order. People don't often think of that they always think, Oh, do the big lift first or, you know, like, don't write, you don't want to pre exhaust this, but like you said, well, doesn't matter because this is our priority. And also the point that that maintenance doesn't take nearly as much. It's just like when we're in a fat loss phase. And we have to get reframed the mindset that you're not actually going to build new muscle, but you're going to maintain and guess what, it takes a lot less volume. So now you're trying to maximize recovery. Take advantage of that right for a while. Really, Colin? All right. I could talk with you for hours. I mean, it's why I love your show, you know, listening to just all these topics, and I knew I would learn a lot. And I'm hoping the listener learned a ton as well. Is there anything you wish I had asked? that I didn't cover today?
Bryan Boorstein 1:02:24
Yeah, you know, I knew this question was coming in. And I honestly think that we had a really great conversation. There isn't exactly anything that I think you'd ask. I feel like, you know, if we want to come back on we can. One topic that I think is been really interesting, and I've received a lot of questions about recently has been from new dads, and how they would change their training as a result of having a newborn or having a really busy schedule with kids sports practices, or like any other number of things that come along with, you know, being a dad and being busy and having kids and trying to balance everything. So maybe a topic for the next time we get to chat.
Philip Pape 1:03:02
I love it, man you are already inviting yourself on which is good, because I would have done it myself. No, no, that's good. And give me a topic too. So love it. All right, well, where do you want people to find out more about you and your work? Yeah, so
Bryan Boorstein 1:03:16
primarily, you can just find me on Instagram at Brian Borstein. Like you said in the intro, I have two group trading programs. Evolved training systems is kind of my original one. But I don't put a whole ton of time and effort into it at this point. It's more of like I call it my science lab because it's a much smaller population compared to my other programming group, which has Paragon training methods. And so evolved is cool because I get to kind of do what I want. I don't have a business partner. And the programming is what I want it to be. I can get really kind of intimate feedback from the members who have been there with me for a while. And then Paragon is my other larger company we have 15 different programs at this point, we have a full gym, a home gym, and a dumbbell only program for five day four day or three day programming. So literally whatever your equipment is, and whatever your desired training time per week is we have a program for you we have a great community with tons of coaches in the group to kind of help answer questions for you do form checks and and stuff like that. So awesome,
Philip Pape 1:04:19
man. Yeah, definitely include that in there and everyone listening I mean Brian, Brian knows a ton about this, definitely check out the podcast E train prosper as well. And um, check out his stuff because it's you're gonna learn, you know, 1010 things every time you're exposed to some of his content. So keep it up, man. This was a pleasure. It was awesome to have you on I appreciate the conversation today.
Bryan Boorstein 1:04:38
Yeah, I appreciate you having me. Thank you.
Philip Pape 1:04:42
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then stay strong
Ep 144: How to Overcome Yo-Yo Dieting and a Toxic Body Image to Build Your Fittest Physique Ever
How do you overcome the demons of yo-yo dieting and negative body image? How can strength training be a gateway to a better physique and mindset? Philip sits down with Isis Alvarado, a long-time member of the Wits & Weights community and a fitness and health enthusiast with a 15-year journey marked by personal struggles and triumphs. You’re going to learn the real, tangible strategies that Isis used to overhaul her relationship with food and their body. You’ll discover how strength training can be a gateway to a better physique and mindset. Most importantly, you’ll learn how to apply these lessons in your own life, breaking free from the myths and misconceptions that hold you back in your fitness journey.
How do you overcome the demons of yo-yo dieting and negative body image? How can strength training be a gateway to a better physique and mindset?
Today, Philip (@witsandweights) sits down with Isis Alvarado, a long-time member of the Wits & Weights community and a fitness and health enthusiast with a 15-year journey marked by personal struggles and triumphs, which is exactly what they talk about today.
Isis isn’t just a fitness enthusiast; she’s a warrior who has battled and triumphed over yo-yo dieting and negative body image. As an adult, she broke free from the chains of restrictive eating, discovering the world of strength training and evidence-based nutrition. This wasn’t just a physical transformation but a mental and emotional one. Her story is about resilience, solid information, and transformative impact.
In their conversation today, you’re not just going to hear another transformation story. You’re going to learn the real, tangible strategies that Isis used to overhaul their relationship with food and their body. You’ll discover how strength training can be a gateway to a better physique and mindset. Most importantly, you’ll learn how to apply these lessons in your own life, breaking free from the myths and misconceptions that hold you back in your fitness journey.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:57 Childhood environment and its impact on health and body image
5:42 Experiences with yo-yo dieting and beliefs about genetics
7:52 Early adulthood decision to stop dieting and relationship with food
15:32 Catalyst for shifting to strength training and changing fitness approaches
19:03 How the right information led to significant results in less time
28:44 Influence of strength training on physical, mental, and emotional well-being
34:46 Shifting food relationship from restriction to flexibility
40:24 Strategies for finding reliable, evidence-based fitness information
50:57 Impact of fitness journey on personal relationships, career, and goals
53:54 Practical advice for listeners starting their health journey
57:56 Future goals in fitness, health, and helping others
1:00:47 What question did Isis wish Philip had asked
1:04:19 How to connect with Isis
1:05:36 Outro
Episode resources:
Episode summary:
Embarking on a fitness journey can be a transformative experience, not just for the body but for the mind and spirit as well. This is the central theme of the podcast episode featuring Isis Alvarado, whose tale of resilience, strength, and joy is nothing short of inspiring. Throughout the episode, listeners are treated to an in-depth look at the many facets of sustainable fitness and health, debunking common myths and exploring evidence-based strategies for lasting change.
The conversation begins by exploring Isis's early challenges with weight and the negative impact of diet culture. Growing up in a family where weight issues were prevalent, Isis was introduced to dieting at a very young age. This early exposure to the dieting mindset had a lasting effect on her relationship with food and her self-image. As we delve into this part of her story, it's evident how societal pressures and family influences can shape our health narratives from a young age.
Transitioning into the topic of weight loss misconceptions, the podcast takes a critical look at the misunderstandings surrounding genetics, metabolism, and the often underestimated caloric content of snacks. This discussion sheds light on the complexities of managing weight and emphasizes the need for a balanced approach to nutrition. The conversation also touches upon the emotional and psychological impact of restrictive dieting, revealing the turmoil caused by labeling foods as 'good' or 'bad.'
The transformative power of exercise and a shift in mindset come into focus as Isis shares her journey from grueling workout programs to the discovery of weightlifting. This chapter of the episode highlights how finding joy in exercise can change one's approach to fitness and overall well-being. The podcast also celebrates a listener's success story, which echoes the importance of a strategic and informed approach to fitness, showing how knowledge and proper planning can lead to more effective and enjoyable workouts.
Community support plays a crucial role in any transformation, and the podcast emphasizes this through a discussion on the motivating and supportive online space created for listeners. The sense of belonging and the ability to share experiences with others on similar paths provide a valuable source of encouragement. This sense of community is further enhanced by the podcast's focus on the empowering effects of strength training, not only for the body but also for mental clarity and self-perception.
The latter part of the episode delves into the mental and physical challenges of entering a gaining phase, an often-overlooked aspect of fitness. This transition requires a different mindset and approach, highlighting the importance of setting realistic goals and trusting the process. As Isis discusses her experiences and the changes in her mentality, the conversation becomes a testament to the value of embracing the journey and focusing on long-term goals rather than quick fixes.
Navigating through the overwhelming amount of information and misinformation in the fitness world is another significant theme of the episode. The podcast encourages listeners to be open to accurate information and to share helpful resources, emphasizing the readiness to act on evidence-based strategies. This discussion is crucial for anyone trying to sift through the conflicting advice that often circulates in the health and fitness industry.
The episode concludes with a powerful message about the comprehensive benefits of consistent and sustainable fitness habits. It's a reminder that transformation is possible at any age and that the journey towards better health is ongoing. The final words of the episode express gratitude for the insights shared and the impact they have had on listeners' lives, encouraging everyone to continue on their path to self-improvement.
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Transcript
Isis Alvarado 00:00
For me now I'm trying to embrace the fact that it's just the journey that I'm enjoying and that is just bringing me closer to everything that I always dreamed I could never have.
Philip Pape 00:13
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I am thrilled to sit down with ISIS Alvarado, a longtime member of the Wits & Weights community and a fitness and health enthusiast with a 15 year journey marked by personal struggles and triumphs, which is exactly what we're going to talk about today. ISIS isn't just a fitness enthusiast, she's a warrior. She's battled and triumph over the all too common demons of yo yo dieting, and negative body image. Her journey began in a family where weight struggles were the norm, leading her to her first diet at the age of 10. This early challenge set the stage for a life altering journey through the highs and lows of self identity, health and well being. But here's where the usual trajectory was turned on its head because as an adult, ISIS broke free from the chains of restrictive eating, discovering the world of strength training, and evidence based nutrition. This wasn't just a physical transformation, though. It was mental and emotional. And her story is about the power of resilience, the importance of having solid information rather than misinformation, and the transformative impact of a balanced and sustainable approach to fitness and nutrition. In our conversation today, you're not just going to hear another transformation story, you're going to learn the real tangible strategies that ISIS used to overhaul her relationship with food and her body, you'll discover how strength training can be a gateway to not just a better physique, but a better mindset. And most importantly, you'll find out how to apply these lessons in your own life breaking free from the myths and misconceptions that hold so many back in their fitness journeys. ISIS. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Isis Alvarado 02:18
Thank you for having me here. I'm very happy to be here.
Philip Pape 02:22
Yeah, I'm so excited to have you on. Because you you've got an incredible story to tell. You've also been very engaged with our community and have a very bright positive spirit, which is appeals to me for sure. And I'm sure our listeners. So let's go way back in the time machine to your childhood, because that's where your early self identity was shaped right? That you told me that you quote came from a family where most were overweight. And even in my home where we would eat healthy homemade food all the time. My mom was overweight. And I consider myself overweight too, even though it probably wasn't. So how can you share what it was like growing up in an environment where, you know, weight struggles are prevalent? And that how that shapes your early perceptions of health and body image?
Isis Alvarado 03:08
Well, yeah, ever since I can't remember. I remember hearing my mom and my aunt talking about diet, about that diet that made them lose like 10 kilos ate with that doctor, you know, like so it was like kind of romanticizing this diet culture, losing weight, and they will see it as you know, like this, for example, this diet that it was the Atkins diet, something like the keto diet. So they, they always thought about it, about how successful it was they lost 10 kilos, but they would never say that actually, they gained more than that way. So it was not as though they weren't caught up in this vortex of dieting, losing weight, and then getting it all again. So I grew up here in this. And when I was about 10 I did my first diet with the full support of my family, of course, and I was praying for losing weight. And even I remember doing one diet when I was like maybe 11 years old, not even tall, which was almost not a thing. It was called the cabbage soup diet. So yeah, yeah, you're supposed to lose like four or five kilos in a week because they weren't eating anything was your soaps, they were surviving on 500 calories a day or something. Course. I did that diet for three days.
Philip Pape 04:28
Yeah, and then you gave up
Isis Alvarado 04:30
right away, right? We'll add up all my life. That was my mindset, you know, like you need to diet to lose weight. But at the same time, it was normal to never be successful like to always lose diet and like lose weight and then gain it back again. Because it was not seeing us as a lifestyle, you know, a sustainable lifestyle but at something you had to know a goal to reach and then what happens like we don't care you just lose the weight and hope Fully pray that it was the body that would never have.
Philip Pape 05:04
I mean, your story is so relatable to probably everybody, everybody listening to this and myself included have been somewhere in our past where we lost weight getting back lost again and back. And just the very idea of what it means to lose weight. First of all, losing weight being the goal, like why is that the goal, we just have been trained to be that that's the goal for some reason, even though we're never happy when we do that. Secondly, how we lose weight, and then it never, we can never maintain it. So it's like this on off switch. And then the kind of I got a little sense of disgust almost when you said you you did a diet at the age of 10. Because that I don't know how common that is for listeners. But I know women especially have a lot of struggles in their childhood with an attention on weight from their parents reflect on that now knowing that that happened, like do you know a lot of people who've been through a similar situation where they were officially dieting at the at that young age? Yeah,
Isis Alvarado 06:00
for sure. Yeah, I come from a country where you know, like, the standards are very unattainable. I come from Venezuela. And like, that, even the people, like men who compete on the men's beauty patients, they already look amazing, and they make them lose more weight. There is this, this idea of beauty that is unattainable. So yes, like, with all my girlfriends, we always talk about diet, even at this age. And at that time, it was pretty much normal. Like no, like, if you say to your parents, I wanna lose weight, I want to go on a diet, they are like, happy for you. Like why not that that's what they thought it was? Good. You know. So, like, reflecting on that. It's, it's actually, for me, like, the biggest damage that it did for me, was the toxic relationship with food that I started developing from that age, because I would say, food as something that will make me be fat, you know. So creating that mindset that you need to eat as little as possible to as much as exercise as possible, in order to look a certain way, until I made that decision that I'm not going to diet anymore. I'm gonna work out because I want to be healthy. I want to live a long life. But I'm not going to restrict myself anymore. So I'd be you know, Chelsea forever.
Philip Pape 07:28
Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you that and you're right, just the very image of certain foods like bread or potatoes. in some people's minds. It's like that equals fat. And, you know, I have clients all the time where I say, Well, have you eaten potatoes? Like, that's a great option for satiety during fat loss. And like, Yeah, well, that's carbs, and, um, and fat loss, and you seem to eat potatoes, like, we just have these links to food. So alright, so then let's fast forward a little bit. Because then in your teenage and college years, you said, that's when you started this yo yo dieting, right? This, lose weight, regain weight, lose weight, regain weight. And you said that you believe being fat was in your genes. And the only way we mean like genetics, right. And the only way to keep away from that was through a lot of food restriction and exercise. A lot of listeners definitely believe, or I'm sure they think that their genetics are sort of hardwired and they're everything. And they're restricting food, and they're doing lots of exercise, especially cardio. So tell us about your life at that time.
Isis Alvarado 08:27
Well, I did believe it was in my genes, because when my aunts were, you know, overweight, even my mom. And as I said, my family in my family, wait, very healthy, we rarely out, etc. But then I realized, you know, my mom was, you know, I call the time snacking and stuff. And that adds up, you know, so she was actually it was not on the genes. Then at some point, I started the thing that I damaged my metabolism forever. And that was worth the work. I did so many diets that now it may I grow it. But now,
Philip Pape 09:03
yeah, hold on, hold on. You said hold on. You said something very interesting about your mom how you thought so you saw her as overweight, but you thought she was dieting, but she was really just sneaking the food in and so she was just over consuming food. I think that's important, right? Like we all we all lie to ourselves in that way many, many times that we just don't know how much we're eating. Yeah, exactly.
Isis Alvarado 09:21
And it's something that I discovered after I started tracking food that, you know, something that things like that harmless little snack, it's actually 500 600 calories. And if you're already in your calories that your body should be eating with your three meals. And actually, that's that's a lot. You know, like if you do two or three times a week, which is very often, you know, some people they snack, like all the time and some people they never do like my dad, he will never snack. But my mom yeah, she's in the kitchen and she's always you know, like, eating here and there. So of course, now that I realize is that yeah, I mean, she He went overweight because he was eating more calories. And was he was burned? Is not that, you know?
Philip Pape 10:05
And then that leads to, well, now I'm overweight and I got to go on a diet, right? I have to just like cut all this weight as fast as possible to get back to some magic number. Yeah,
Isis Alvarado 10:14
exactly. And that made me believe that it wasn't possible for me to be lean, because it was in my genes, I would always say that even you know, eating, I was getting fat from air, you know, but the truth is that I was, I was restricting myself most of my life, you know, like, on and off, because when you restrict yourself, then you have periods in which you restrict yourself to become Feel free. And, you know, the thing is that I was just making my metabolism slower. And at that time, and that's something I started also to understand with the macro factor and thinking your, and nature going up and down. And I realized, of course, I was just my body is just a perfectly good, functioning body that was adapting to the little calories I was given. And I should actually be thankful for that. Because my body was very good to adapt to that. And you know, I love not your new thing, or the way my body was just that acne, like you're eating less now you'll find some with that. Yeah,
Philip Pape 11:18
yeah. And that's another great point for folks listening is that you could be even if you're not losing weight, you could be in this perpetual low energy state where you're eating less than your body needs, but not so little that you're going to lose much weight. And now you're just under fed your metabolisms lower. And you think that you have to eat way less calories than you do for losing weight, or whatever it is. So yeah, all these revelations are important. But let's continue the let's continue getting close to the present. Because I want to, I want to understand the experiences you went through because in early adulthood, you said that you promised yourself you were never going to dye it again. Because you love food and the restrictions that you thought you needed to be lean, were just too much to happily handle. And you started to exercise intensely and regularly and eat quote unquote super healthy, right? Lots of veggies, restricting carbs, having a huge list of foods you love but shouldn't eat because they make you fat. And you thought you could never be lean because it would take too much effort and you couldn't sustain it. So again, clean eating, cutting out carbs and you know foods is good and bad. Just this is your relationship with food at the time, right? Still, not the healthiest.
Isis Alvarado 12:25
Not not that not healthy at all. It was a very unhealthy actually not only for my body, but also mostly for my mind and you're always it's not just it's not only that you end up binging on food more often than not it's also the impact of those changes in your emotions you know, like in your in your mind you know, you feel like you're a failure you feel that you're never gonna be able to do it you know why I can control myself always be like, what's going on? Like? I do very well in other almost all areas in life and Letson mess with food
Philip Pape 13:07
Yeah, falling out quote unquote falling off the wagon all the time right or whatever labels we use.
Isis Alvarado 13:11
Yeah, it made me feel like out of control which I never found in any other areas in my life. It manifests are out of control. So powerless, so frustrated Yeah. So it was all this emotion that he was creating. Not only like the extra calories that I was consuming, because my body was trying to compensate but always okay, it was in my mind,
Philip Pape 13:35
chaos in your mind. And what did the exercise look like? Then you said you were exercising intensity? This is before you got into lifting? What did it Yeah,
Isis Alvarado 13:42
what I was at the end when I start to hate doing 3040 50 minutes of heat, but I went through almost everything I could find and I was just I wanted this one called insanity probably heard about it. Oh, yeah, sure. All for a left off was
Philip Pape 14:02
I was hoping it was a Beachbody one of those programs
Isis Alvarado 14:05
Yeah, it was dance for like hour already. The warmup was like giving me exhausted and I'm not. Wait, am I doing like that? So yeah, I then so
Philip Pape 14:17
it wasn't fun was it probably wasn't fun, either. No,
Isis Alvarado 14:20
I was not enjoying it. I was. And I actually I ended up like, taking to hate for the longest because it was short intervals of time. So I know in my mind, it was nice. 30 seconds you can do 30 seconds. Right? I think so it would feel easier. It will feel more manageable. You know, but I never really enjoyed it. I did and I felt very well afterwards. And I could see that you know, able to help my body somehow I never looked like really fit but I will say that it looks so
Philip Pape 14:57
nice as I can. I mean doing CrossFit for a year. I can relate to that were like, because people have asked me that, well, where are you in shape? And I said, Well, conditioning was there, like you had pretty good heart health probably. Yeah. And and you burned a lot of calories, kind of, but your body probably compensated a little bit as well. But it's because you're just working so much and putting all this intense work in. And we're not saying hits bad, right? Like even as a lifter, a few hit sessions can can be a great thing if you, especially if you can make them enjoyable, but that was your only mode of exercise, which sounds like torture. Okay, so now let's get to the fun stuff we come to like about a year and a half ago, you started lifting,
Isis Alvarado 15:36
right is that about a year and a half? A year? Less than a year and a half a year?
Philip Pape 15:40
Okay. Yeah. And you said that there was a significant shift in your approach to health and fitness. Now, as an adult, you're in less than a year and a half ago? What was the catalyst? What was the thing that led you to break away from the cycle of the eating stuff, you know, restrictive eating, and you're you're dieting, but also the training.
Isis Alvarado 15:57
So first, it started with the training, I was doing it at home, I had worked some you know, after the pandemic, I ended up buying a few things here and there. And then I, I met this friend who was a personal trainer, and she had been training all her life. And she told me, let's work out together a couple of days a week. And I was happy to because I never had friends who wanted to work with me. On the contrary, and not like I had to back them. And so I started working with her at the gym, and we were weightlifting, because that's what she was doing. And I started I realized I actually liked it. Way more than any other kind of exercise I actually liked. You know, Korean liked it. So I started weightlifting with her. But we were just William follow any strategy, we were just there. And she's like, we're just conditioning and now like, in next few months, we'll start with a strategy but I think she really didn't want to get there because he's been doing that all her life. And now she's on her lazy years.
Philip Pape 17:00
Oh, she's just maintaining, so it was more of exercise, not training, we had to actually
Isis Alvarado 17:05
see what it's like so eager to for me to join her because she was not able to bring to the team. Okay, an example activation for so I started and I liked it. So I started to read more about weightlifting, I you know, that's when I discovered your podcast and all and I started, I started to realize that, okay, first I need a strategy. I cannot just go there, to the machines, I can actually I was doing more than what I'm doing now. I was doing seven, eight exercises, you know, like, each time and like pushing very hard, but at the same time not tracking anything. So it was depending on how I was feeling that thing. So I started to realize, okay, I need a strategy. Then also, I became again, open minded to taking care of my nutrition in with an objective in mind with that strategy as well. And I have found the calories before here and there, but I didn't really see. I mean, I didn't know how many calories I had three, you do these calculations online, but they don't work for you. I mean, regulations I read online, were not correct after you know, using manufacturing for a while, so I didn't really see resource. So eventually, I match this together and say now I'm gonna try I started studying and listening to podcasts rather beginning taking notes. And I started doing progressive overload. I designed like I didn't design I took it from different sources, my workouts, I started, I bought macro factor started to follow another calories, they told me and in like maybe four months, I've seen more change that I have ever seen before in my life. And the AFR has been like a fraction of what I actually what I usually have to do to see any kind of changes in my body.
Philip Pape 19:03
Okay, okay, okay. I'm beaming right now ISIS, okay, I have to interject, I'm beaming. Because this is like, what I wish everyone who listened to the show would do is exactly what you're doing is you took action, and you started me took notes, which I love. You've been to the show, and hopefully got a few nuggets, which makes makes me really very proud. And I still am surprised when I hear people say that, believe it or not, I still very surprised. We were like, Yeah, listen to your show. And it actually helped change my life. That that makes me feel great. But for you to say that it helped you get more control and do it in a way that felt like you weren't sacrificing anymore, and you're able to get progress. Like that's what that's what we want. That's what people want out of this journey for it to be a fun thing for it to be a productive thing that doesn't require all this, you know, guts and sweat and discipline and willpower. So I just congratulate you on like taking that action. You made it happen for yourself, but you took the information so, so thank you and I want to applaud you for that.
Isis Alvarado 19:59
Thank you. And now I wanted to find any also to tell you how grateful I am with everything that you share. And like, You're very generous with your time and the the information, also getting people together, I usually don't belong to any online communities. And if I do, I'm just there like knocking on the desk. And you'll have created that space in which I feel also inspired and motivated to share my experiences with other people, you know, like I do have some kind of virtual long distance connection with other people who are going through the same journey, as we all are.
Philip Pape 20:44
That's beautiful ISIS, and I've heard that from a lot of people. And I agree, like in the sense that I'm also in a lot of Facebook groups, and some of them are not very active, or it's just a different fields, a different culture. And having come from, like the world of CrossFit, I was very much missing the community aspect of that, because I work from home, but also with the podcast, knowing that people would reach out and say, Hey, I listen to this. And it helped me out. I'm like, Well, how can we get more and more people who do that who listen to the show, to kind of interact with each other? Because every day we see people come in, who are where you were, like two years ago, or five years ago, they come in, and you can see their questions are like very basic questions, that I'm always surprised that they don't know the answer to but we've all been there. And so our community just said, hey, at any dive in with a very positive attitude, you you'll chime in and somebody who's, you know, an expert lifter will chime in, or whatever the answer is, to improve all of these things. So yeah, I'm glad you said that. And I want to go back to you ISIS with the the recent transformation, you said, because it's, you said you had all this chaos in your mind before, right? Yeah. What it what is your mental state now? Like, how has it changed, and what specific strategies allowed that to change?
Isis Alvarado 22:00
Well, I, you know, and I have self diagnosing, diagnosed myself with that I have a toxic relationship with food, and that I am an emotional eater, et cetera, et cetera. But then also, I realized that man, the biggest trigger for me, was my food restriction, I never worth an emotional eater in INR, I was going through some trauma, or bullying or wherever it takes no, my own my, my relationship with foods started, like the toxicity of it started by restricting the food by restricting the quantity and by restricting the diversity of food I could eat and by relating eating certain foods, so being fat, which is something I never wanted to be, and now that I'm eating more, like, I feel always, I never feel hungry, that I'm eating a lot of carbs. And that I'm eating probably more protein that I never I had never eaten before. It that the desire to be in shape, almost never there, that for once and for like, the other thing is that I also wanted to thank you for it, you talked so much about the sustainability, that it finally made a weight inside of my mind. And for example, when I would bench I would just try to compensate. And the next two, three days, do it at least as little as possible to balance that out. Right. At some point, I you know, I realized that this is not sustainable. You know, like, one day, you just fall off the wagon, which happens to absolutely everyone, even with people who are not, who don't have any younger, unhealthy relationship with food, you'll hear them talking about how they finished the bag of Doritos or whatever, you know, and you am here punishing myself because I did that. Instead of just, it's okay, I ate 1000 calories extra. So what you're not like, maybe if I'm trying to lose weight, it's just gonna, you know, it's gonna delay slow you down a tiny bit. Yeah, and there is no end goal anymore. You know, like, it's just, it's, this is just a process for me. So it's not like before, when with this diet mentality, I want to lose, thank you. And that was the end goal, you know, now is like, I'm just trying to make myself stronger. And hopefully, that will also shed the extra fat. And, you know, just, it's more like a vague goal, like the call is actually in the process to follow this process in a way that is sustainable for my body and for my mind. So is this content I can contact constant mentioning of Sustainability also shifted something in my relationship with food in my binges, you know, like, now if I do, it is very, like rare is just an isolated event before I would bench and then I would try to restrict myself in the next two or three days to compensate the calories. So then I would end up painting again one day or two days later. So it would be always like three, four in a week. Instead of use one, just take it you know, because also, when you see that, you know, black and white, this is bad, I did something wrong. It also brings, you know, the guilt, the feeling of not being enough, but like what's wrong with me. So that makes you self sabotage again. So it all, you know, like all this process has also helped me a lot, mentally and emotionally in my relationship with food. I'm starting to see things with a completely different field. And I don't like now when the last time I didn't, it was the day that my period came. I just wanted to do like eight adventures. I was like, what just happened? Why? And then maybe you can say, Ah, okay, now exactly. It's that I don't and I don't feel bad about it. It's like, okay, whatever, you know, like, I just life goes on. I'm not gonna change anything. Absolutely. And
Philip Pape 26:28
I says you have such a level of self awareness. And you're right that like the buzzwords we use, like sustainability, I say it all the time. And I think it can be it can be overused when you don't explain what that means. And I think you did a really great job explaining different facets of what we mean by sustainability. So what you basically said was, overall, that I heard is, it's part of your life, it's part of your process. You don't think of it as dieting or not dieting, and you talked about the binge restrict cycle, you can't binge on a regular basis, if you're not also restricting on a regular basis to have that cycle. So if you're simply accepting that you can enjoy the foods you like, incorporate them, plan for them. Obviously, we don't want to eat to excess or do anything in excess. We don't want to do that. But your body won't feel great when you do that. Anyway. So incorporate the things you love. Like you said, You're not You're hardly ever hungry, right? And, and maybe you still get golf, golf a little bit here and there because of hormones, because it doesn't matter, you accept it, it's reality, and you move to the next day. You also said that the goal is in the process. I love that quote. He said it's just a process, the goal is in the process. And every day we can have goals, right? Whether it's training, or you know, hitting our macros or making sure that we are satisfied or non fitness related goals as well. I agree. That's how we make things sustainable is just going after those on a regular basis, and then pushing the comfort zone a little bit on the areas where we want to improve. Last thing you said was the no guilt from the black and white mentality. So again, same philosophy, same principle of just do things in moderation, right? Do things in a way that that you can live with sustainably, so you don't have that dieting mentality. And then finally, you mentioned getting stronger, which we all love here. Because if you have a goal to be athletic or strong, or you know, build muscle, it allows the food to support that. And then you're never really restricting. And of course, you can go through a fat loss phase. And you know, we talked about that all the time. Sometimes you do have to do a level of calorie restriction with it for a fat loss phase, but you're still not restricting the types of foods you eat. So thank you for kind of laying the whole masterclass out of sustainable sustainability, ISIS. So yeah, that was just a lot of commentary. So let me ask you another question. Because strength training was critical. And it still is critical to your transformation no more P 90 intensity workouts right. Now so how is it tell us about your training? What does it feel like? How has it transformed your your physique and your mindset? Is it because it's okay to want to have like a great looking body, you know, and I think you do it in a healthy way. So tell us about all that.
Isis Alvarado 29:09
So Well, as I said, I really enjoy my my training. I really love them. I always look forward to going to the gym. And I I didn't realize how much of an impact it has in my mindset until I had to stop for a couple of months, and then vomit and I was also going through some difficult times that were making it a little down. And the moment I went back to the gym, I did that first training after two months, I felt so empowered. You know before I was feeling like I was letting go is he does not bring me down but I was feeling like a little like a bit like a victim. I just did that and I don't know what it is in my brain. I feel like I feel normal again. You know, like I feel like myself again. So definitely that I enjoyed that I enjoy. Like when I'm training, I like the fact that it permits I can meditation, because I have to focus on one thing like Todd, which is like, you can do 10 reps or whatever how many reps I can do is like you can do it, my mind goes down where for a minute, like, for a millisecond, then as my strength goes way up, I think about like, whatever you're not like, I have to boom, it's also it's a mental exercise for me. And yeah, I really am planning my work as now, I plan in the way that I'm going to do the rest I'm going to it. I don't know, more or less. I don't know if that answers your question. It
Philip Pape 30:49
does. No, it appeals to me and the whole structure behind it. Because what you're saying is that, you know, just just so people are listening who may not be as familiar, we are talking about training, where you have a plan, you have sets, reps, movements, yeah, loads all planned out, and then executing on that. And there's a sense of empowerment and control, but I liked it you. You could compare what it was like to not train for a while after having trained and come back and realize, whoa, like I really want this in my life. Because it's just mentally invigorating. And you feel powerful and strong. And I I've seen I have never seen anyone who didn't feel that way, to some extent about strength training. Now, that's different from exercise and like randomly working out and all this high rep stuff and cardio that's different than what you're talking about. You said this is like a form of mindfulness. It's a process you focus, like, there's a common theme here. So you definitely answered the question. I want to inspire people that training can be more, it's more than just building muscle and getting strong. It's a lot of other things.
Isis Alvarado 31:49
Yeah. And actually, like, if you're lucky enough to do it, like to do it with a friend, which I was doing before. Hopefully, I go back to do it in a few months. With my friend, it's also time for socializing, I really enjoy that our friend time in our images that they just, you know, catch up on thing than the weekend or whatever. So if I like it, then you know, like, you have a lot of time for yourself now that I'm going to learn is like, a lot of me time. Okay, I have somebody says I will have to do some online shopping in between that.
Philip Pape 32:25
That's so true. Yeah. Yeah, I
Isis Alvarado 32:27
love it. I know they there is nothing I don't like about strength training. And yeah, it empowers me as well. And for sure, in my physique. I've never seen such a change in my life, even when I have lost like 20 pounds with a diet or something. I've never seen that change. Because actually, when you're used to losing weight without strength training, your body's just becoming smaller, but very slowly, right? So you get in the state in the mirror, maybe when you see a picture of how you were before you're like, oh my god, did I look like that? You know, like you realize you have changed. But with strength training now well, following of course, following a plan a strategy. So in like, three, four months, like now when I'm at the gym looking at, you know, the actual, like exercise, say like doing something and looking at myself in the mirror. I don't recognize my body. Yeah. Is that that's also that definition. So yeah, just yet change with strength training, because it's like, you are not only losing fat, you're building muscle. So you're like, becoming a little smaller, which is not very noticeable, maybe, but then muscle. It's not the Opsahl. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's actually very motivating. I mean, not that I need it to go to the gym because I'm lucky enough to understand to really love everything about it, but I get a few I'm not, you know, so much into it. Yeah, no, it's
Philip Pape 33:52
true. Yeah, I agree. And, I mean, I can see your delts and shoulders right here popping, you know, like on the screen. I mean, it's fun to have that physique even when you gain some weight.
34:03
Hi, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to give big shout out to my nutrition coach Philip pape, with his coaching I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in so the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunter guide and that really helped me so thank you below.
Philip Pape 34:46
So like I wanted to ask you about that. Have you gone through a dedicated gaining phase where you actually gained a little fat as well and and what was that like or have you not done that yet? That's the thing that started okay. Yeah, okay.
Isis Alvarado 34:58
Yeah, remember, I gone from this mentality that putting away these bad days has been like, a challenge for me. I just I was in that guard for like four months. And I decided, Okay, I think I'm ready to go into maintenance, which I'm, I'm now in maintenance a little above maintenance. And I'm still like, I mean, I'm very happy with all that I ate. Very exciting. But I'm still here. I'm like, mentally getting there to go into the gaming thing. I mean, it's gonna be scary for me, but I trust the process now. 100%
Philip Pape 35:33
good. Yeah, no. And I recently did that episode, right? Why I'm getting fluffy before I get jack. So hopefully it helps. That
Isis Alvarado 35:40
one that the one that inspired me to say, Okay, it's time, let's go, like, a month in losing weight is just gonna slow down my metabolism. And, you know, I already look alien enough. You know, before I when I started, it was like, very hard for me even though recommended also like to start, but my mind is still like, you know, reluctant to like if I see myself fluff in the mirror to it about my maintenance calories, but now it's like, Okay, enough. You're looking already, you know, fit enough. It's time to go into the gaining phase. Yeah, which is what I'm doing. I've been like two weeks in at maintenance. So I'm going to stay two more weeks, and then I'm going to increase a little bit more considerably the calories. So I can Okay, cool.
Philip Pape 36:27
Yeah. And if it's your first gaining phase ever, you're probably gonna go go after something like, point 2% A week or something like that, maybe maybe a couple pounds a month gain is what we're looking at, yeah,
Isis Alvarado 36:38
I got both pounds a month, that will be something I'm comfortable with. Exactly,
Philip Pape 36:42
yeah. And, you know, figure, if you did that for six months, that's anywhere from six to 12 pounds, but you're gonna gain, you know, six pounds of muscle or something like that, which is incredible, a credible amount of muscle that you're going to gain. And what I'll say is like, when you're at that phase, where you You're, you're kind of maybe not beginner anymore, but you're getting into intermediate phase, now, you still have the chance of somebody recomp along the way, where, you know, you may gain more muscle than you think you may not. And it's it's embracing the things that you can control and that are a measure of your success in that phase, which is not leanness. It's, it's your lifts, right? It's your muscle, it's even when you want to look in the mirror, it's like focusing on your biceps and your shoulders and things that can be defined even while you're gaining weight, and not focusing so much on your belly ears or other spots that may gain a little more fat. It's, you know, part of the process, you
Isis Alvarado 37:33
know, I'm still hoping that I can, you know, even if I go into client surplus, I will still keep losing weight. And by then,
Philip Pape 37:43
yeah, you may lose your fat while while gaining muscle, fiber
Isis Alvarado 37:46
and muscle because that they can enter my even though I started like lifting like a year and a bit ago, I actually started niche there with a strategy four months ago, or months ago. So I'm still a beginner. So I still gain a lot of muscle.
Philip Pape 38:05
You definitely can you definitely can. What are your thoughts, though, on if you do start to gain some fat? So for example, are you going to take body measurements like your waist circumference, biceps, things like that, so that, you know, whether it's muscle or fat?
Isis Alvarado 38:19
Well, now I'm trying to embrace the fact that, you know, it is a journey, and doesn't matter. And you know, like, you know, we all want this and this idea body, right? Focus on that, for me is now I'm trying to embrace the fact that it's just the journey that I'm enjoying, and that it's just bringing me closer to a physique that I always dreamed of. And I could never have. So of course, it's gonna, as I say, I have a lot of resistance to go into even maintenance. I was like, especially because it's so easy, that it's like I feel I could do, I could continue on account for months on end, because he didn't feel difficult for me. Right. Or to everything. You know, all I have done in my life before that. So it's it's an emotionally challenging, challenging for sure. But I'm willing to trust the process, because it has worked so far. For sure.
Philip Pape 39:19
And I can't wait to see your gains and see you get super stronger in that phase.
Isis Alvarado 39:24
They all said they want the right.
Philip Pape 39:29
Yeah, it's and it's funny because you say that it's going to be its own challenge, right? Because people always think of dieting and cutting and restricting as as a challenge, so to speak in the dieting mentality. But when you are gaining weight to gain muscle, it has its own challenges of doing that from a nutrition intake and carbs and performance perspective, which is kind of fun, right? Because it's the other problem of like, I gotta eat enough. And you maybe and you haven't experienced that yet. It sounds like but when you do it'll be another Yeah, it'll be nice. Yeah. I wouldn't say yes. Yeah, yeah. And it has its own, it'll teach you a lot of things. As far as like you'll, you'll learn about yourself even more about the meal timing and carbs and stuff like that. And if you start to fall behind macro factor will let you know, right? Because you'll start to flatline. Keep keep us up to date in the community as you do that, you know, post some screenshots and stuff, because we'd love to see that. So, all right, I wanted to ask about information and misinformation, because one of the things you mentioned was, you know, took all those years before you finally found like this podcast, and probably some others like it that you listen to now, how do people navigate through that today, knowing that there's so much junk on social media, there's just so many, the things that get all the attention are usually the extreme fringe ideas, or they're like the 1% of like cold baths and red light therapy, and like, all this stuff, that just doesn't matter versus the basics, how do people navigate through all that? How do you do it?
Isis Alvarado 40:59
I didn't know anything for a long time. I thought it wasn't easy, I thought it's not it can be easy. So this is something that, you know, like, actually goes against a lot of what I believed, you know, that I was not gonna be hungry, and I that I was gonna work out on these four days a week, you know, for a very short intervals of time. So it's, you don't really, I didn't really believe we could work until I decided to give it a try. And I think, you know, I still have many friends from my childhood from my college years, who are still struggling, like with weight issues. And they are like barely eating, exercising a lot. And even sometimes I try to tell them, it seems like they're not ready to late. And so I guess, when you are ready, the information will find you. And you will be open to receive it. Because even my friends can see that it's working for me. They just done. They they want to go on one hour, run it very little, etc. I'm like, Okay, I mean, I guess it's not about the information. It's about you being ready for that. Ready?
Philip Pape 42:18
Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Yeah, all the information
Isis Alvarado 42:20
in there. And maybe this information passed through my eyes a while ago, and I didn't need them. Because in my mind, my mindset at that time was thinking that that's not possible. At manatee, you know, like, eating that much. Just working out that little. Yeah.
Philip Pape 42:38
Oh, that you know that I just thought of something when you said that. Because for years, I did low carb diets. And anytime I would see anything that said anything to the contrary, like, no low carb diets are not necessary. Carbs are good for performances. I would just my confirmation bias or whatever bias I had was like mineral that can't be right, like, and so I would ignore anything related to that, which would have led me down this to this world of evidence based fitness. Right? Yeah. My first question to you is, Have you shared this podcast with them?
Isis Alvarado 43:04
I haven't.
Philip Pape 43:07
We'd watch it, share it, share the podcast with everyone just yeah, just very passively say, hey, there's a podcast I really love. Not everybody listens to podcasts, but like, Hey, this is my favorite podcast, send it to them. I'm shameless plug on my part. But honestly, if it helped you, Hopefully we could help.
Isis Alvarado 43:23
That's what we all want, you know, like, to help each other to support each other, you know, to share what has worked for us. But yeah, I mean, they, they I was also doing keto low carb for so long. So then also because I realized that nutrition, it's like, an, you know, like many things in life is like everyone Asian, you know, people, it's like a religion. Yeah, there is one, one universal truth, even amongst professional people, you get bias with what you believe in. So it's not until you are ready. That's why I say you have to be ready to break free from your religion and open your mind to something completely different. You know, like, listen to it. So yeah, it's like
Philip Pape 44:10
being saved from a cult. It's a being being rescued from a cold. Not everybody's ready for it. Right back
Isis Alvarado 44:20
out of there. Oh, yeah. Wait for the like, I'm ready. Yeah,
Philip Pape 44:23
yeah, that's why I guess the best way the best we can do is like love and support people who are in our lives, even if they're maybe making the choices we don't think are best for them. And and gently encourage them and provide support and maybe there'll be when they're ready, you know, it'll be there for them. So that's a, it's a good approach. Plus the idea of, of it being a religion implies that, like you said, a universal truth. If if you are listening to this, and you have if you have the lease like that right now and you're listening to ISIS a story and you can relate to everything she said, you're like, Hmm, maybe I should question some of that. I would go back to your concept of sustainable To me, sustainability is like a principle rather than a dogma, right? Rather than, like, if you have sustainability, it means you can eat in a way for you for forever. And therefore, there's no one right way to eat, it's the way it is for you. So kind of kind of embrace that idea, rather than a specific, you know, these are the right foods.
Isis Alvarado 45:22
Like I really enjoy with weightlifting, but I can see why for some people, they would never enjoy it, you know, they will never get into it. It's just a different way of No, like, working out. So some people, is
Philip Pape 45:36
that true? I just hold on, hold on. I want to challenge that because I have a lot of conversations with this on other podcasts about that, where they'll say, Well, what do you say to people who just don't like weightlifting? And And I'll say, Well, are they doing it the way that I would do it? And if you start like, getting stronger because you're using a training plan and progressive over like, I've never met anybody who doesn't start to like the training, then that's my opinion. What do you guys
Isis Alvarado 45:58
Zack my opinion, but they wouldn't they wouldn't even want to try or they wouldn't wouldn't try it long enough to to like it because of everything. You cannot like something like there is no love at first sight with your workout.
Philip Pape 46:14
True. And it's hard. It's hard, right? Yeah, people. Yes,
Isis Alvarado 46:18
they are very resistant to it, especially women. But now more I see more and more women who are into weightlifting. Actually, much more than before. So yeah, I guess I guess I would believe that everybody would love it, if they give it a try if they are rational enough to understand it enough to decide whether they like it or not. And for sure, they would like it more than any other kind of any any other kind of exercising. But as I said, like some people, they're not even willing to make
Philip Pape 46:53
it true. So that's a lot of wisdom right there seriously, that you just dropped that. You may not like something the first time you try it, but you stick to it, and then you'll see if you like it. And with weightlifting with lifting weights, it seems to be almost universal, that if you do it the right way and start to build muscle, you're going to like it. And there's something like natural about using your body and using your muscles as a human being. Again, in my opinion, I'm very passionate about this. But I've seen people who did not like lifting, and they've done everything. And then all of a sudden, they maybe do some bodyweight movements that help them solve a problem in their life, like an older person who has trouble getting off the couch. And then they start squatting. And now they can get off the couch and their joints don't hurt. And now they're like, Oh, now I see the value in this. And so if you're listening and you like you think you're not gonna like it, you've got to give it a shot like ISIS is saying and tie it to a performance goal you have or a health goal you have or something very specific that you can then train toward, you know, don't just train to be have a great body and a lot of muscle like a year or two years from now. That may be too vague. Do it for the process. Do it for the short term wins and salsa. So yeah, good.
Isis Alvarado 48:02
I think I also think regarding weightlifting, there is a lot of you know, like, people like him when I was younger, and I started going to the gym. Way nifty and for me it was for like bodybuilders so and a lot of people still say like that, at least, where I'm from where I come from, you know, like, like lifting heavy, like we met would have like these tiny little numbers to pink, lifting heavy weight. And using all the machines that was like on he wanted to be like Mr. Olympia, like, gigantic, bulky in the gym. So I think a lot of people still associate by lifting with that, because not long ago, and she messaged me asking me what what do you think, what can you tell me about intermittent fasting? And I was like, what, for losing weight or for health? In general? She's like, No, I just want to lose some weight. And I won't say well, I did it for a long time. And actually, I didn't lose any weight. Because of it. You may or may not, but it does. It's not gonna make you lose weight, per se. But this one, I can tell you how to lose weight very easily. And I kind of talked to her about it, like you have to lift weights, etc. As you say, No, I'm doing for that. She's like 45 And I'm not too old for that. And first, like, actually, you should start lifting weights. If you want to avoid like osteoporosis or whatever, you know, that's the best anyone to do. To avoid all these pains you start on all these health issues you start having when you grow it because of your bones, bone density, etc. So as I say, as I said, if it weren't addressed as I say whenever you want I can guide you to it you just need to find probably a personal trainer who will like help you understand you know the correct one, that's all and they want
Philip Pape 49:52
one ear out the other. Well, she's not ready. She's not ready to leave the call.
Isis Alvarado 49:56
Okay, well, you know, that's what I can do. I just and they plan
Philip Pape 50:00
to see that's true, it's true. And that's a good point too, because some people will hear it over and over and over again. And then like two years later, they'll finally you know, after frustration, they'll finally reach out. And, by the way, for anyone listening, there is an age at which you're too old to lift, and it's the day after you die. That's the age that you're too old to it. And I mean, that literally, because recent studies have shown in your 80s, and 90s, you can build new tissue, I mean, that is so amazing. My own mother's approaching 70. And she's lifting for the first time in her life, she loves it, and she's getting stronger. That's what it's about. It's not just physique, even though physiques a nice side benefit. It's about being a human like, we're, we're mechanical, right, we have these joints and skeletal muscle, and if we don't use it, it all just starts to waste. And you start to get frail. And just like anybody else you see, walking around, your trajectory is poor health, metabolic disease and all of that. And ISIS here is like staving all of that off, she's getting younger every year of her life by lifting. So what else has it improved in your life? Besides, you know, the physical and mental, like, relationships, career personal goals, anything else? Well,
Isis Alvarado 51:08
I mean, already that emotional part of it. And, and the physical part of reading, like a lot, emotionally, it has improved a lot. As I said, when I, this period, in which I was like, a little bit too down, like working out made me feel like myself, again, that's already a huge improvement. I realized that exercise, and it's not just exercise, just because I exercise because I have if I had done some hate or some party or whatever, I would have felt like I wouldn't have felt the same, I would have felt like no,
Philip Pape 51:45
yeah, I'm just exhausted.
Isis Alvarado 51:48
Love me power. Yeah, it makes me feel empowered, then that I would say that the effect in the IP every single aspect in my life, sir. Beautiful,
Philip Pape 52:00
ya know that we hear that a lot of the confidence you get sometimes it sometimes it feeds into other areas where maybe you, you make a decision you would have made otherwise or take take, you know, be work on personal development or make you know, you speak up at work or something, sometimes people have a very specific thing they tie it to with confidence, you're already a very confident person, it seems I suspect a lot of that is inherent in you as well over the years. But the fact that you've found yourself and you've kind of got past the emotional side of it, and now it's been more positive, I can just see it on your face and how you talk. And I think that alone is you're gonna inspire a lot of people, just in general, by your interactions with them. It sounds like already you're doing that. As well as being on the show. I don't want to give the show too much credit, but like, seriously, you're gonna you're gonna inspire a lot of people because it's just just so positive.
Isis Alvarado 52:47
That's mine. Well, that's my job, I
Philip Pape 52:50
for sure.
Isis Alvarado 52:51
I hate to hear people struggling with, you know, their weight issues every time. And every time I talk with my college friends, they're always you know, like, telling me how hard it is why they cannot lose weight. And they are like doing everything and they tell me what they eat. I'm like, Oh my God, you just need to eat more.
Philip Pape 53:10
You know what, you're gonna share this episode with them? Right? All your friends, everyone, you know, like, Hey, look at me, I'm on this fate. I'm famous. I'm on the show. Now, you know, millions of downloads and share it with that. And then maybe they'll get the message and they'll they'll laugh because I'm saying we're saying all these things about the
Isis Alvarado 53:29
identities that religion? Yeah. Another afraid they're gonna be like that.
Philip Pape 53:35
Yeah, maybe maybe you never know, you might be surprised. Now probably be surprised. Like, we're gonna give them the benefit of the doubt when they're
Isis Alvarado 53:42
watching me know for sure. I think a lot of people you know, like, it just takes time. It takes time for some people to like, get the message and be ready. For sure.
Philip Pape 53:53
So tying this all together. For listeners who might be where you once were right, if they're feeling stuck in the unhealthy patterns, maybe it's your friends who are listening to this, but anybody who's listening? What either what practical advice do you want to give them? Like one or two simple tips to start their own journey? or thought of another way? What would you have told yourself, you know, like 15 years ago to kind of jumpstart this, knowing that there's the mental piece you have to get past the this religion of like bias, you have to get past what what would you say?
Isis Alvarado 54:24
Well, I would say that definitely like things are simpler than what you think they should be. And consistency. And sustainability is the main my magic ingredients in this part of my journey. Like being consistent, because I don't see it anymore as an end goal to lose this amount of skills. So it means that it's just my life journey. So of course you have to be consistent. It's okay to like, fall off the log on once in a while, it's okay even if it's twice in a week, whatever, is just keep on the journey. Just keep walking this path, and period. And sustainability helps it consistency. Because the more sustainable you do, like you have to create your own process. Like, for example, I was trying to balance when I was having like my, my once a week, meal out, I was trying to balance my calories of the day to be able to fit that 1000 Calorie burger. And then I realized that, that was putting too much stress in my mind. And you know, I was feeling hungry or whatever. And I say, Okay, I'm just gonna eat enough. And if this day, I eat more calories. Who cares? You know, it's more sustainable for me to do it this way, than to like, do it the other way, which is sacrificing my other two meals, to be able to see that delicious burger that I like to have once a week. So it's all you know, you have to make it sustainable for you. And that will help you be consistent. So
Philip Pape 56:06
true. So true. I mean, you've you got it, you've got it like you figured it out. I just like if you can plan your day, your week, your training, your food, your movement, all that in a way that you can do it or that if it's your life, of course, then you can be consistent. Yeah, some people have a backward they like trying to force in the consistency with some discipline or willpower, with things that they don't like, right? Well, you're saying, Well, if you like it, and it's a process, and it's giving you wins every day, you'll just do it. Just like you
Isis Alvarado 56:36
can, you can't rely on willpower. This is something I have learned the hard way. You can't rely on willpower because it is not an infinite resource. And food is always available. I mean, like if we're talking if you have issues with food, with power on a lawn, it's not gonna get you anywhere, because food is always there.
Philip Pape 56:57
And now the temptation is always there. So why Why try to make it? Yeah, yeah,
Isis Alvarado 57:01
it's not something like alcohol or cigarettes that you can just, like, make disappear from your life completely. So yeah, willpower is not gonna help. You just do create a system that works for you in a sustainable way. They send that that is enjoyable, that doesn't feel like a sacrifice. And now with the right information, I have realized that this system exists for me, it's not a sacrifice, I eat as much as I want. I eat everything that I want, you know, in moderation, of course, I plan it out. And it works very well for me, and it doesn't feel it doesn't have to feel difficult. That's my main main livelihood feels difficult, that's a red flag, you have to find a different way.
Philip Pape 57:48
I love it a system a system that sustainable, enjoyable, doesn't feel like a sacrifice. And that is 100% possible for everyone listening. So I want to know is this what is next in your life? Well, it besides this amazing conversation we had and of course, you're going to share this with all your friends who are going to get you know, converted out of that religion into you know, this sustainable way of life. What are your future goals for your fitness, your health, and this spreading awareness that you seem to be really good to do it here
Isis Alvarado 58:16
are my, my bigger goal right now is to completely heal my relationship with food, do not feel guilty for like not feeling any kind of feeling of guilt or, or self they fade or not being enough because of the way it I want to feel that freedom that you know, I can eat wherever I want. Not literally, but actually I like to eat healthy. I just want to break free from that mental chaos, which is now almost zero, where they learn in my subconscious mind still, like you know, whenever I eat extra calories, it's like tomorrow you will eat those calories that and then I already say that doesn't work for me. And you know, you know, like just heal completely my relationship with food. I am very confident that in the physical aspect of it on the right track and there's no way back. I'm looking forward to my first cycle full cycle of gaining and then Jamie I think to see how it looks. But yeah, mainly my main goal now is focusing on the emotional side of it because everything else it's already it feels it fits perfectly. I I already you know I feel well with what I eat, etc is just the mental side of it, but it's still it's still there. It takes time because it's your subconscious mind. You know, since I was a child, feeling guilty for what I ate, feeling that I had to eat less you know, like sometimes and thinking like maybe I could just go back into the gut you know, like yes Yeah, totally agree. Yeah. All in mind that telling you like, what, are you doing anything too much?
Philip Pape 1:00:06
Right? I mean, it sounds like you've come so far. And you're right, you know, we're always gonna have things that we struggle with or things from our past. And you put it nicely when you said subconscious. And I would even say unconscious, in some cases, pattern, like their patterns, right, their patterns that are just like trained in you. And if it started when you were 10, that's even harder to break because it goes so far back. But since you said that, it reminds me we, you know, in the Wits & Weights community, you know, I would love to have more content about emotion and, and self sabotage and like, you know, unconscious patterns and things like that as part of our, you know, information and maybe some future podcast episodes about that. So I'd love your input on that as we go forward. I do like to ask this question of all guests that we think you know, what's coming, but what one question, did you wish I had asked it? What is your it's
Isis Alvarado 1:00:55
okay, yeah, I had to take about four days. So my.
Philip Pape 1:01:01
So you thought about it in advance, and it was hard. Right. Okay. All right. Oh,
Isis Alvarado 1:01:05
no. So what's the most difficult part of this new
Philip Pape 1:01:09
journey? Okay, good question. But what's your answer?
Isis Alvarado 1:01:13
And the answer is the, the emotional part of it, they're transitioning from the old mentality that I have to do more sacrifice more illness, etc. To this new mentality of things have to be simple and eating? Because it's kind of like, it's like counterintuitive, you know, it's like, it's like, when you're, you're afraid of heights, and you you're gonna jump, even if you tell your mind and say it's safe to jump, let's do it. Your subconscious mind, like, keeps you there, like, frozen. And I can do it, I'm kind of facing that right now. Almost, like very frequent that you have to realize that in the like, you have this internal battle, like, this is too good to be true. This is doing say what you know, like, is it gonna work? How is this gonna work? Like, I have to think much more difficult if they haven't worked? Why isn't it work? So that is my only actual challenge right now with this new way of doing things? Because everything else is? What is there than what I always done? So yeah,
Philip Pape 1:02:26
so the emotional shift in all of your beliefs? Is is difficult. Yeah, yeah.
Isis Alvarado 1:02:33
You are changing from mindset in which things have to be super hard, and you're turning into something easier, it's still difficult for your brain, because your brain gets kind of like, hooked to that mentality, or the idea to that level of difficulty. So when you don't have it, your brains like, Hey, what's going on?
Philip Pape 1:02:54
Because it thinks something bad is gonna happen, right? And thinks, thinks that, that, so So why don't we just why don't we make everybody feel a little bit more easy about or relieved about this? What is the worst that can happen? If you make a quote unquote, wrong decision, like with your food, or your training? What's the worst is going to happen? Like that? Maybe it's hypothetical. But, you know, right. What, it's probably no worse than what's happened in the past when you haven't been doing anything. Actually,
Isis Alvarado 1:03:20
I had this. No, no, no, like, what's the worst that can happen? I'm gonna put away well, I've been putting on weight all of my life. Exactly. My name is not in you. So yeah, you're right, let them happen. It's nothing new, actually, something you've been going through all your life. Exactly.
Philip Pape 1:03:38
And the way we do things and the way ISIS does things, and I know, we didn't get into a lot of detail on that, but it's the awareness. And the control comes from the tracking and monitoring of what you're trying to measure, like ISIS, you know, tracks or food and tracks or lifts and stuff. And it's not quote unquote, calorie counting or like, this very, you know, has to be exactly this thing. It's more just, hey, what's going on with my choices with my body and with the outcome so that I can be that back and change what's happening. And if you have that awareness, you know, if things are going off in the path you don't want, and you can just correct it the way you do. Yeah, yes,
Isis Alvarado 1:04:09
exactly. And it's not about perfection. It's about on constant that consistent. Yep. Sustainability
Philip Pape 1:04:16
and consistently Awesome. All right, is ISIS. Do we want to let anybody know how to reach you here? Or do you want them to find you in the community?
Isis Alvarado 1:04:25
While I'm on the community, I don't really have like a public in social media persona. So it's just personal friends and all but I'm happy and I'm happy to interact with people and on the Facebook community. Beautiful.
Philip Pape 1:04:41
So for everyone listening, we're talking about the Wits & Weights Facebook group, totally free. It's a private group, but it's free. And as I mentioned before, very positive, very supportive. And you can join using the link in our show notes, or just searching Wits & Weights on Facebook, and you'll be able to find ISOCELL Lorado in there. I'll see if I can like link. I don't think I can link to a pro So far, but we'll link to the group so you can find her. Other than that this has been a pleasure, an amazing conversation. I'm really glad we had you on. I'm inspired just talking to you, you're so positive. And again, I'm grateful you came on ISIS.
Isis Alvarado 1:05:11
Thank you. And I really enjoyed this conversation too. And as I said, Thank you for everything you share, like this information has changed my life. And not only the scientific facts that you shared, but also your approach to it. That as I said, it has sunk in my mind and it has been like, it has been a key factor for the changes that I needed to do.
Philip Pape 1:05:36
That means a lot to me and says thank you, and thanks for coming on.
Isis Alvarado 1:05:39
Thank you. Really nice to meet you in person. Well,
Philip Pape 1:05:45
exactly. It's awesome. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 143: Unique Over 40 Workout Strategies for More Muscle, Energy, and Recovery with Brad Williams
Do you know the fitness principles that can be adapted to the over-40 age group? Discover practical tips to maintain a strong and healthy lifestyle beyond 40! Philip speaks with Brad Williams, host of the Over 40 Fitness Hacks podcast. Philip asked him to come on here to talk about the unique challenges and approaches for the over-40 demographic, when he was honored to be on his show recently. They discuss Brad’s motivations behind focusing on this age group, how fitness principles can be adapted to their age, and common age-related fitness myths. Brad shares his insights on effective training styles, managing stress and inflammation, and optimizing nutrition.
Do you know the fitness principles that can be adapted to the over-40 age group? Discover practical tips to maintain a strong and healthy lifestyle beyond 40!
In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) speaks with Brad Williams, host of the Over 40 Fitness Hacks podcast. Philip asked him to come on here to talk about the unique challenges and approaches for the over-40 demographic, when he was honored to be on his show recently. They discuss Brad’s motivations behind focusing on this age group, how fitness principles can be adapted to their age, and common age-related fitness myths. Brad shares his insights on effective training styles, managing stress and inflammation, and optimizing nutrition. Tune in and learn practical strategies for maintaining a strong and healthy lifestyle beyond 40.
Over the last decade, Brad has owned and operated three gym locations in Orange County, and oversaw more than 40 independent personal trainers, each with their unique training styles. He built a loyal following and sought-after client/trainer community culture within his gym locations.
Post-pandemic, Brad had to focus more on online training and started his fitness podcast called Over 40 Fitness Hacks. The show revolves around Brad’s passion for helping the over-40 crowd fight the aging process while still having a social life.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:17 Why focus on over-40 fitness
5:30 Personal fitness and health changes now that you're over 40
10:36 Training principles and adjustments for over 40
15:05 Common misconceptions or objections to training over 40
20:25 General training and programming principles
26:54 How to manage inflammation and stress
33:42 Mental health and fitness
41:08 Counting micros (not just calories/macros)
46:16 Muscle gain and strength expectations for 60s/70s
49:28 The question Brad wished Philip had asked
52:17 Where to find Brad
52:48 Outro
Episode resources:
Podcast "Over 40 Fitness Hacks" and website www.Over40FitnessHacks.com
Join our free insiders list to receive an EXCLUSIVE bonus interview with Brad on how he uses intermittent fasting, 36-hour fasts, EAAs, and more for his personal nutrition approach (and why)!
Episode summary:
As we age, the importance of maintaining a healthy and active lifestyle becomes more apparent. In a recent episode of our podcast, we had the pleasure of speaking with Brad Williams from the Over 40 Fitness Hacks podcast. Brad, an expert in midlife fitness, shares invaluable insights into the best practices for staying fit after 40.
For many, turning 40 marks a pivotal point in their fitness journey. This episode breaks down the myths surrounding midlife fitness and provides listeners with practical advice to help them navigate the changing landscape of their bodies. We discuss high-intensity training, the benefits of time under tension workouts, and the underestimated importance of everyday movement.
One key takeaway is the role of mitochondrial health in combating the aging process. High-intensity workouts, though daunting for some, are crucial in maintaining mitochondrial function. However, the emphasis shifts from the frequency of workouts to the quality of exercise as we age. Brad highlights how a change in mindset is required to adapt our fitness routines to our body's evolving needs.
We also delve into the significance of nutrition in maintaining vitality beyond 40. The conversation includes the crucial role of micro-minerals and the personalization of wellness routines. Stress management, mental health, and managing inflammation are also discussed, with strategies shared from our own experiences in thriving despite these challenges.
The podcast also covers the importance of raising your basal metabolic rate (BMR) by building lean muscle and the necessity of a high-quality diet. Personal anecdotes reveal how food allergies and nutrition can impact overall health. The discussion also touches on the importance of journaling to track how foods affect your body, the connection between stress, cortisol levels, nutrient absorption, and the role of consistent routines in achieving health goals.
The complexities of stress management and its impact on overall well-being are also explored. We examine the strong connection between physical and mental health, highlighting how fitness routines can alleviate anxiety and depression for many. Personal experiences emphasize the importance of perseverance in the journey toward mental health.
Lastly, we discuss the importance of tracking micro-minerals for nutrition, particularly potassium, calcium, magnesium, and vitamin D. Surprising benefits, such as reduced water retention and improved muscle function, are noted when adjusting these nutrient levels. The use of resources like EatThisMuch.com for tracking micros in food is recommended, along with the importance of regular blood work to identify deficiencies.
In conclusion, the episode not only sheds light on the intricacies of midlife fitness but also empowers listeners to take control of their health as they venture into the prime of their life. With Brad's expertise and actionable fitness hacks, our audience is equipped to fine-tune not just their body but their entire approach to well-being.
For those interested in connecting with Brad, he shares how listeners can reach out through his podcast and website. The episode wraps up with a reminder to follow the podcast for more episodes aimed at enhancing both mental and physical strength.
Join us on this invigorating journey as we redefine what it means to be fit after 40. The wealth of knowledge shared in this episode is sure to inspire and motivate anyone looking to maintain their health and fitness in midlife and beyond.
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Transcript
Brad Williams 00:00
Doing a little bit of high intensity training, you know, there's people out there that just love it to death and you know, good for you, I hate it. But having a little bit of that per week actually helps boosts the mitochondrial levels in your body, which is just part of the aging processes. As we slow down, we age we move less, our mitochondria count starts dropping in our body, and that's what keeps us youthful. And it's also the powerhouse in ourselves that utilizes fat and burns fat.
Philip Pape 00:29
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm joined by Brad Williams, host of the over 40 Fitness hacks podcast. I had the honor of being on his show recently. And I asked him to come on here to talk about the unique challenges and approaches for the over 40 demographic. We'll discuss Brad's motivations behind focusing on this age group, how fitness principles can be adapted to our age. And we're going to of course, debunk common age related fitness myths. Brad will share his insights on effective training styles, managing stress and inflammation and optimizing nutrition. And of course, you're going to learn practical strategies for maintaining a strong, healthy lifestyle beyond Florida. Over the last decade, Brett owned and operated three gym locations in Orange County, and oversaw more than 40 independent personal trainers, each with their unique training styles. He built a loyal following and sought after client trainer community culture within each of his gym locations. Post pandemic, Brad had to focus more on online training, and started his fitness podcast called over 40 Fitness hacks. He wanted the show to revolve around his passion for helping the over 40 Crowd fight the aging process while still having a social life. Brad psyched to see you again. Have you on the show?
Brad Williams 02:08
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on your show is great. Yeah, so
Philip Pape 02:12
it's so much fun, man. The over 40 thing is so hot right now, one of the most common questions I get all the time, is you know what to do for this thing over 40 Whatever it is training, nutrition, you name it, as if it's some magic arbitrary number. And you know, I kind of pick your brain on that, why the over 40 crowd, let's just start there. Yeah.
Brad Williams 02:30
So you know, just as a frame of reference in your intro, you know, I've been a personal trainer for 15 years owned and operated gyms in Orange County. And I think just kind of those were the over 40 crowd was kind of who could afford you know, private personal trainers or semi private personal trainers, which is what I did, you know, I trained a few people still kind of catered the workout, each one of them, but you know, allowed them to share the cost. And just got really good at it. And, and, you know, would always notice the over 40 crowd, you're talking about their aches and pains and how, how much harder it was then in their 20s and 30s. And, you know, I always give them some props for that I get it. But you know, we could still work hard, we can still get there and kind of grind grind, you know, let's, let's get that motivation as being the personal trainer. And then you know, fast forward 15 years, you know, doing everything I've been doing. And finally turning 40 myself. And now I'm seeing the the problems, you know, it's harder to keep the weight off, I'm tired, you know, you got life, work life, family balance, and I'm like, Oh my God, all these all these clients were right, it is harder. But you know, I've got that personal trainer mindset where I refuse to quit, I will literally find the best ways of quickest ways, you know, and safest ways to still get that healthy body that athletically and aesthetically pleasing body. But also, you know, I've also kind of changed my mindset to more longevity as well, over the last few years. So that's, that's kind of where I am now. And I just love helping people, you know, being in our 20s and 30s. That was great. But you know, we had aids to help us out on that. And now we have to worry about a lot more stuff than just how many days we can get to the gym. It doesn't work like that anymore.
Philip Pape 04:17
That's a solid answer. So first of all, thank you for your honesty on saying like it was the people who could afford it like initially is I totally understand. When I was getting into marketing, I'm like, Well, you know, I'm probably not marketing to 21 year olds need high ticket coaching or whatever. So that's funny but then you said that you know, you yourself hadn't quite experienced that yet being in your 20s or 30s at the time and and then you kind of aged into that and now you can really empathize empathize with your clients, which is also a good point because those listening you know, we have a lot in that demographic don't hire 20 year old coach come on, hire the guys that have been through it or grizzled got the little bit of the gray hairs you know, we understand? Exactly, we understand right and then and then the idea of of refusing to quit and like continuing to push appeals to me and I can relate to wanting to get younger, the older you are like now that you're in your 40s. It's like, Forget Father Time, like, we're gonna figure this out, or we're gonna keep going and making progress. But then the idea of people not having age anymore to help them is another good quote you said, because folks are listening to like, Yeah, I know what you mean. Like, in my 20s, I could do anything. And now I've got things happening, like stuff is just happening, whether it's from built up life stress, right, from obligations and their family and stuff like that, or just what happens with your body? So you said you're 42, I'm 43, we're pretty much the same age and the over 40 crowd, is there something that you experienced in the last five years that you attribute to age that you just absolutely couldn't relate to in your 30s? Because you alluded to some of that? Yeah.
Brad Williams 05:51
So you know, I just picked 40 is the number but you know, I started noticing playing real competitive flag football with a lot of my buddies, and noticing some injuries at 30 to 35. Those were the first times I saw ankle rolls, and, you know, almost some meniscus tears in the knees, just from playing a simple sport like that. And I'm like, God, you know, so we train and try to be more functionally fit and do this things. And, you know, it's just you're just, you're fighting a losing battle, you know, if it My thing is, I mean, if you really love and it's gotta be part of your life, then you make it happen. But for me, I finally decided that, no, I'm not getting paid millions of dollars to be an NFL athlete, why am I doing this? You know, there's other things I want to do with my life. So I pretty much just took sports out, you know, minus some pickleball or, you know, whatever. But uh, that's that's kind of the thing. And then right around, I think 37 I had a pretty prominent lower back injury. And you always have to tell people it has nothing to do with the gym or any my workouts. I always got to put that out there. But it was you know, I was the I was the gym owner, I was running three gyms I was the accountant, the bathroom cleaner, the marketing guy, the front desk guy, you know everything right and so I can get these gyms going. And part of it was moving equipment around to keep it fresh and everything. So one day, I was just moving out of one of my gyms, a couple pieces of equipment and, you know, walked in, it was more of a warehouse style gym. And we use these little eye bolts that were anchored into the ground, and we hook our battle ropes to it. So they're basically OSHA trip hazards, right? So we usually put orange cones on him when we lift the shed door. While I was sitting there to grab a couple things. I'm like ADD, though, you know, I don't need to do that. Literally, as soon as I went in there, talk to someone grabbed a frame weight rack, about 45 pounds turn and totally forgot, went out tripped on this thing lunged out so violently, taught myself and stupidly held onto the rack. And immediately I heard the pop. And basically, long story short, I blew out my L five s one. And oh, it's just a nightmare experience. So with with that, and over the, you know, a five year period of time of two surgeries, tons of chiropractor visits, physical therapy, visits, everything, you know, a finally, you know, that's kind of a shock to, you know, humbling you and seeing what's what's worth it to you on, you know, what you can do now what's in it for your future and kind of longevity, you know, stuck with me like how am I supposed to play with my kid later in life, you know, what I want to be able to walk and, you know, deadlifting 450 pounds is just not my future anymore, even though I was functionally sound and safe doing it with all the, you know, personal training principles that I had. But now it's, you know, I had to adopt more of a philosophy of time under tension, you know, a lot of people have different names for it, do negatives or slow mo training, and I just call it time under tension, taking everything I do, slowing it down, you know, instead of one to two seconds to finish each rep of whatever exercise you're doing, I'd take four to five, sometimes longer. And really get that mind body connection, control, feel the contraction, but it allows you to use about half the weight. So now I've just you know, given myself that much more time expended on my body, as far as joints and you know, my spine as well. So, and I've been doing great with that. And we'll talk about other hacks that I've learned that you know, everything is about quality now not quantity. And it's not just movement, and how many times at the gym, you can get, you know, there's now sleep, inflammation, different kinds of stress, all these things that I've incorporated, that we probably should have done in our 20s That's true. But we just didn't care didn't listen to our bodies and we just had so much drive and you know that young energy that we just push past all those things?
Philip Pape 09:43
Yeah, I've yet to meet someone in that age group who will listen, I guess, who will just say, oh, you know what you're saying is very wise. And I understand it's gonna happen to me, so let me know. It's just never happy like we all learn from the school of hard knocks and you're thinking about back surgery. So I have back surgery to I get it l five s one, same thing. So many people listening, have you know, they get the tendinopathy, or the tendinitis or tendon nesis, right, depending what you call it, they get the they have the surgeries. And you get to this fork in the road, you get to these decision points, the older you get, the more you get beat up of what do I do now. And I like your principle of finding something that allows you to continue to train and not using it as an excuse, but also not being stupid, and just saying, Well, I can do the exact same thing that I did before. So we'll get into training a little bit because I liked the idea of modifying tempo, modifying your lifts, it's all good. Like, I'm not dogmatic about that stuff at all, when it's the best thing for you. So, stepping back, what are the big rocks, like the principles for over 40. And again, I know 40 is an arbitrary number, but it's a good transition point. You know, men and women that's in your testosterone hormones start to decline, you know, during menopause, for women, it's when we all get into mid career. So all the stresses there are kids are like 10 years old, roughly. So what are the principles that do change the approach you have to take, like recovery, joint health, you mentioned stuff like that. Yeah,
Brad Williams 11:11
so that's, that was kind of hard for me to grasp, even after the back surgery was, you know, to get to get what I wanted, I would have to put minimum five times in the gym, lifting heavy, you know, to get what I want. And what I noticed was after adopting, you know, this other style of slowing everything down, you don't need to go five times, you know, sometimes I only do two to two days a week. Usually I try to get three, but just how important movement is it doesn't need to be, you know, heavy lifting, obviously, you can do, you can do quite a bit, which is two to three days, and then your other time spent, it'd be walking, right and why I like rucking with a little light weight vest. And movement is really what matters. And I like to preface during COVID When a lot of us trainers had to go home. And we had the luxury of taking some of our gym equipment home and keep it going where our clients, you know how to use whatever they get. They had, and we would still get great workouts for an hour, hour and a half. And then for the rest of the day, we would sit there and do nothing because we weren't even really supposed to go outside, right? Every single one of us gained like 15 pounds. So we did the same workout got all our protein every day. Yeah, that was the one problem was movement, you don't realize like how much we were moving being trainers. And, you know, for me jumping from gym to gym to gym, and just hustling. No, we're not doing that. And that was the first time I was like, oh my god movement, all his matters just as much as you know, lifting to tear down the muscle and rebuild to get that lean muscle mass. And then so going down that rabbit hole, you know, that's why listening to other experts and just really getting into this over 40 Fitness theories of you got to start looking at all this stuff and slow down, give your body time to repair, you got to worry about sleeping better. Supplements stuff only if you can't get it or won't from your diet, there's people that just won't do it. So okay, we've got to supplement it. And then another big one was I really learned the benefit of doing a little bit of high intensity training, you know, there's people out there that just love it to death and you know, good for you, I hate it. But having a little bit of that per week actually helps boost the mitochondrial levels in your body, which is just part of the aging processes. As we slow down, we age we move less, our mitochondria count starts dropping in our body. And that's what keeps us youthful. And it's also the powerhouse in ourselves that utilizes fat and burns fat. So right there is a flag that saying that you're not moving as much you're not doing a lot of this high intensity stuff. You're aging. That's why we're putting on all this fat. I mean, I'm doing the same amount of workouts, I even cut my calories down even more. I'm eating more protein than I ever did. And why might Why am I getting heavier it's because you're not you're not having that same effect of having all that mitochondria. So that was a an addition I had to start adding it and sure enough, it was really easy to start boosting that and without any effort you know one day a week started seeing the results start coming in faster so that's what just kind of threw me down that rabbit hole and now I've got all these different buckets you know one for movement was more contrast one yeah, all that stuff and you don't have to master at all but if you dabble in a little bit of each one of them now being over 40 Oh my god, you can do so much damage. Alright, so
Philip Pape 14:30
there's a lot I want to unpack because I love even the last time you said dabble in each one of them is is a great way to put it because it people try to do maybe they try to do too much. Or maybe they think they have to do everything in every category. But like you said, dabbling, maybe what you're getting at is consistency or you know, having that spread of doing all the basic routines and habits in your life. The healthy routines to some extent most people are not doing any like or most people are doing very little. So you're gonna be way beyond the next person just by doing some of that. A couple of print Suppose I want to tie him because before we started recording, we talked about how there's, there's things we may, quote unquote, disagree on or have controversy on whatever. And we'll probably talk about that at the end and put that in a bonus content for people to listen to. But the idea of doing too much, and moderating your volume and frequency, when I hear you talk about the importance of movement, I think of energy flux, right, I think of your expenditure. And like, like you said, at the cellular level, you're engaging this. But you also mentioned the time and attention principle. And I think there's probably different ways to get to that result, because I had a similar experience in the pandemic, where I had been doing CrossFit for years, which was added like crazy level, I stepped back and just started lifting three days a week. In a sense, I was reducing volume by doing that. And all of a sudden, I could recover and seek more and build, although I was lifting very heavy, but not that heavy, because it was relative to my strength. Yeah. Anyway, the principle though, is the same when people are listening. It's like, don't do too much, you know, realize that recovery demands are higher and your recovery capacities lower with age, move, walk through on a rucksack. Get your sleep, like these are all super important. Right? So thank you for Yeah, I think I think it was good. Those are the big ones. You can chime in when you want because sometimes I just ramble. But the opposite of that is the misconceptions or excuses people make that are not true. Or they cuz I'm sure you see that as well. Like we just talked about what you do need to be cognizant of what do people say? Well, I'm now I'm 40. So you know, what do they say? Yeah, well, one, one, they
Brad Williams 16:31
say, I just don't have time for this? Well, we have we have a solution for that. You don't have to work out as long and hard as you think. And then, you know, others say, well, is you're fighting a losing battle? Well, I mean, you could say that with any aspect of life, right? We're all gonna die someday. But my thing is, when like hate said was especially like women, you know, that are kind of referencing their 20 year old bodies and college life and their friends with their friends, kids, like how I can't get back to that way. And I was like, first of all, you have denser bones now just happens with age and then eventually goes back the other way. Our body just needs more water, it has survival mechanisms to hold on to more fat, you're going to be heavy, no matter what. So the weight, the skills gotta go. Everything is about inches, how you feel, you know, having that muscle to feel functionally well, that you can walk upstairs and do anything you want. And then I mean, there is a diminishing return as we age of being able to simulate protein, how well our digestive tract works. But you don't give up, you still got to optimize it and just work smarter, not harder. And you can you can get real close, like I feel like I have my 29 to 31 year old body. And I think I can hold that for another 2030 years, and I'm barely doing any effort, because I've got my routines down pack. You know, I enjoy life. I know that. And that's the biggest thing is you got to find stuff that works for you. And we'll talk about later. But you know, what I think of for diets and all that, but I've never put anything on anyone. And I just like being a detective what we got to find things that make you feel good for, you know, diet wise, you know, things that you like for exercise, and just keep you moving. And my best thing that I tell clients is, you know, after they've been with me for a while and they're still crying about you know, I don't have my 20 year old body in VR, I talked about that. I was like, Hey, let's let's just look at you. You've been with me for a while and you feel great. And you know everything let's let's put you against your peers, all your friends the same age, how does that look? They're like, Oh my god, I'm
Philip Pape 18:34
so much better, like top 1%
Brad Williams 18:38
Just, you know, in some of my older clients, how much more quicker they are mentally in talking and some of their counterparts are just barely moving, talking so slowly, like that's huge. Now not everything has to be about the six pack and, and dude, I have I spent my whole 20s and 30s trying to keep and hold that six pack. And when it comes down to it, you see these bodybuilders who, you know, look effortlessly holding them, but what they're taking and what they're using for dehydration and all these compounds and chemicals. It's not representative and they only do it for that one Photoshop. What do you think they look like the rest of the year? I see them they're in my gym. they puff up just like me.
Philip Pape 19:21
And where are you? And where are you seeing this the algorithm? Right? You're seeing the algorithm. So oh, man, the the idea of looking at your peers is really powerful, because a few things come to mind. Brad, one is that it doesn't take much to get you there like and you've seen this you can take someone who's been sedentary and within harsh weeks, even there are things that can start to, relative to their peers seem like outliers, like I've seen people who you know, they're starting to get that hunched over posture, even in their late 30s and 40s. You know, they're walking on the desk all day, and then they start lifting weights and two weeks later, you see him standing up like this, right? You know, older books in their 60s 70s who have trouble getting off the couch. Just a little bit of squatting A week later, they're getting off the couch like that stuff is is life changing? And and you talked about like the bigger and denser bones. I think it's all funny, right? Because you're right, women were just like, see how much more powerful muscular they are compared to their peers from a little bit of this? It's, that's I love that approach. It's good. Yeah, yeah. No. And you mentioned like protein MPs declines hormones. Yeah. All that is a fact. So what are you going to do about it? You just do control what you can. Okay, so I actually have a few questions from our members that are Wits, & Weights community for you. I'll sprinkle these in. The first one is really about training and programming. So I think it's a good segue into that. If we're talking over 40, and your goal is body recomp, you know, body composition, which I'm sure most of your clients are looking for that hypertrophy, physique, that kind of stuff. What's your general principle for training and programming? You know, not knowing the individual who we're talking about here? Just general? What are your principles? Yeah,
Brad Williams 20:59
it's still very similar to how I preach to my 20s and 30s. You know, everything is about raising your BMR, your basal metabolic rate, building more lean muscle tissue, when you're burning calories during the workout, to your burning calories, while you know, the aftermath of recovery and the protein synthesis that's happening, and the thermogenics that's burning more calories, and then having a higher BMR. Because now you have you know, three, five pounds more muscle, you're burning more calories at rest, even when you're sleeping than you were before. So that's always been my theory, my whole 15 year career. But now it's just, you know, what changes after 40? Well, we're still going for that. But you know, like I mentioned before, everything's got to be quality, not quantity. So first thing is we really got to start cleaning up the diet. And if, like, one one thing is really hard is, you know, some people can do it. But I mean, I can't all my, almost all my clients can't do it, just get enough protein in the day. Okay, so we tried first real food, but now we got to use protein shakes. Well, you know, I've had bouts of problems with cheaper whey protein concentrate, because it was always the cheapest stuff. And later in life, actually found out I had a severe allergic reaction that was building up to that, that sent me to the hospital twice anaphylactic shock. And now I know I have a milk protein allergy that's been building up. And now that I look back in time, I had noticed almost every single time I had that shake, I was getting a little itch or something wrong with my lip. And those are all the telltale signs that your body's changing and liking something. I'm allergic allergic to a whole slew of other things, by the way, but we don't really have the time to talk about that stuff. So one is this, like, we got to start getting quality stuff, stuff that works with your gut. You know, there's all this science and stuff coming in about your gut biome and who knows which way to go right, but easiest thing to do is start journaling. How you feel like after you eat after you drink anything, I mean, you should never have that bloating feeling seen your liver blowed out. You know, I found out I was allergic to red wine gluten, obviously the milk broccoli, like where did that come from? I almost had a, you know about it that last year, just a good amount of broccoli and just had not like a severe allergic reaction, but enough to cause enough inflammation enough discomfort IBS slightly. And I've noticed that anytime your body's inflamed anytime your body's stress, either no pain or mental heal your cortisol levels, raise your guts not working properly. And so everything you put in your body is just a waste, it's not going to process it correctly, you're not going to get those nutrients until your body is calmed down. And so the best results I've ever gotten is journaling and making sure that everything that I put into my body, my stress, everything is just top notch, my sleep top notch, and then you start seeing the needle just start going like crazy. You're getting all the results you want. So it's not just alcohol anymore. You know, that was a big thing in our 20s and 30s. Like, well, you know what you're getting yourself into if you're drinking on the weekend that pretty much everything's turning to the fat. Well, all these other systems are doing the same thing too. So you have to watch everything now.
Philip Pape 24:16
Yeah, first of all, I feel bad for you. Well, those allergens because like, it's hard for me to relate to some people because my body for whatever reasons, like a tank with anything, I could just put any garbage into it and it's fine. It's just amazing. Other than you're right, some protein patterns, you gotta watch out that certain, certain negative side effects depends. But I think that's important, right? Because as we get older, these tolerances start to show up, or you may develop an allergen. What I found to Brad is people have been living in this state of fog for years not realizing it until they eliminate it from their diet, right. Oh, there's the clarity I was missing. Even alcohol does that to some people. But um, you talked about stress and cortisol and gut kind of malfunctioning and therefore kind of the nutrient partitioning isn't up memo, which is, it's one of these hidden things that people need to be aware of. The journaling is a great tool. So when you talk about journaling, I assume there's many ways people can do this. Is there a particular way you really like and find that people stick with and find useful when it comes to journaling?
Brad Williams 25:17
I don't really have like an app to use, I'm real big, and just keeping paper, I love paper, getting my To Do lists, and then little journals like that. But other clients, they use, like Microsoft notes, or, you know, or just text it to themselves, but just just something that habit and not not only for watching those items. Another one is, you know, we talked about building your routines when you finally feel like, what's the best diet, you know, what are you supposed to eat on there, you know, what type of movement you're doing each day, because you should do something and you need reminders. So you know, I have this down, and probably in mid day or late afternoon, I always see what my to do list is, next page is, you know, all these routines and like, Oh, crap, I forgot to take some fermented food products, but you know, because that helps with your gut biome, allegedly, and it does feel good to me. But just things like that, or your protein powder, you fried take your second shake, if that's something that was important to you. You know, it's hard once you start building these to remember day in day out, and you let three months, six months go by and then you're like, why is nothing working? And then you go back through this stuff. You're like, I forgot, like six of the things I was doing. Yeah. So it's just that's just not how our brain works. You know, some people probably have photographic memories, but no,
Philip Pape 26:29
no, yeah, I hear you're saying, right, because like I used to take to Brazil nuts every day for selenium, that I remember that dropped off at some point. And I used to have a reminder, my phone and I don't anymore, and I'm like, oh, okay, maybe
Brad Williams 26:42
like that. I do nutritional yeast and eggs for the same thing. But I'll forget. I'll forget the nutritional yeast for like, a year.
Philip Pape 26:49
Yeah, yeah. So you gotta write this stuff down. I mean, whether it's a notebook and app reminder, I probably 20 reminders a day for all little things like take my vitamins, you know, or, yep, do this. Do that. So yeah, it's human being human. Okay, so inflammation and stress. You mentioned, physical and emotional, of course, I'm sure when we talk about stress, which increases with age, and part of it is the decades we spent not taking care of our body, like I said, or life becomes stressful with obligations of family, financial obligations, and so on. So, you know, and I'm even putting you to sleep here. Oh, you know, as well as we have this podcast, because we're probably got some stress. Just kidding, man. For those that watching the video, he just just yawns I was joking. Oh, no, I
Brad Williams 27:29
was coughing. I'm muted, so I can pop. That's good. Oh, I
Philip Pape 27:32
thought it was a yawn. That's so funny. And I only say that brand, because I own all the time. And I feel like I'm offending people every time.
Brad Williams 27:38
My teeth, which is why I have some other issues with teeth, although it
Philip Pape 27:42
sounds good. So the question is, how do we take care of the inflammation in the stress? Like, where did those come from? And are there some practical things that people can kind of easily do and then maybe more advanced strategies if you have those? Yeah, so
Brad Williams 27:56
for inflammation as far as like, you know, we already went through that you know, what you're putting in your body, okay, you've written all that down, you're feeling great, your body's never really bloating up, you're working on your, your mental stress, you know, what's going on with work your family, I mean, that could take some time, too. But I'm telling you, until you take care of that, my job is a personal trainer, and your job, you know, trying to go through this journey. It's just, it's not going to happen, or it's going to have marginal results. And one of my favorite stories on that is one of my clients, a female at the time, she was I think, 32 she had been coming for about a year and she wanted to go the distance like almost, you know, bikini prep, if she wanted to, I'd have to refer to someone else that did that kind of stuff. We got great results. Just couldn't get that last, you know, five to 10 pounds off, maybe eight pounds Max, it didn't matter how much better on nutrition, you know, we gave her more movement homework to dues and, you know, progressive overload, like crazy, like we mapped it all out. And throughout that whole time, you know, I would I was noticing that, you know, she'd always talked about work and how she hated her coworkers, her boss, and she had jumped from job to job, she's just, you know, I'm not that person to I couldn't work for corporate anymore and deal with that stuff. But just just the stress, I didn't know how bad it was. And I I was friends with their husband as well. And he told me how bad it was God is, you know, you need to take care of this. And eventually, she got her wish her husband got a like a higher paying job and was able to give her her dream of going out, consulting, you know, LLC and doing it on your own. And I don't think it was maybe eight days, nine days, she lost like eight pounds. Like all the pounds that we were trying to get off and all sudden they came off and we had kind of given up on some of this extra work due. So she reverted back to the lesser time, you know, maybe three, four days a week, and she lost all that weight out of nowhere. That was my first time I've seen the effects of cortisol and how how that can just sit there and work against you. And you know putting seven days a week on it. Two workouts a day isn't gonna isn't gonna do anything until you solve that problem.
Philip Pape 30:09
Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this guest interview on Wits & Weights. If you're finding it valuable, you can get a bonus conversation we recorded. If you're on our email list, just go to wits & weights.com/bonus or click the link in the show notes. Insiders on our email list will get a link to the bonus conversation where my guest will give you the exact steps to take related to one of the topics in today's episode. Again, these conversations are only available if you're on our free email list. To get the bonus exclusive content with today's guest, just go to wits & weights.com/bonus, or click the link in the show notes. Now back to the show.
Brad Williams 30:51
So that was more on that side. And then for stress as far as pain, you know, I went through that chronic pain for sciatica, I don't know how bad yours was Phil, but mine, you know, I got to level 10 And then had to start counting by 10s, I got to like level 70 pain like I would have rather put my hand on a frying pan for 10 seconds, if you would have taken my back pain away. And recovering from all that still having issues and I met someone that helped me with a breathing process called diaphragmatic. Breathing. We're basically just you know, the people call it like belly breathing too. But learning how your nervous system if you can calm that down. It's not just your cortisol levels, but it's just your nervous system as well. Calming that down. And with within three days of doing this style breathing, like 70% of my paying gone. So it's just the power of using these systems properly optimizing them, you got to know about them. First of all, like I've gone down. I've been doing this for a while interviewing tons of guests. I'm sure you have as well. And you just keep learning and finding out new tricks and trade. You know, I thought I never thought I knew everything about personal training, I thought was really good until you meet people more. So
Philip Pape 32:03
it's true. Yeah, when they're specializing. I mean, stress is one of those. It's funny because I'm putting together a podcast episode just on stress for the new year. Because of that, I think this episode might come out after that. But anyway, it's like a hidden like you said, it's this hidden insidious thing that's working against you. And it's probably the one pillar of all the nutrition and training pillars. It's like most nebulous Yeah, exactly. Right. Like eat sleep, you get sleep, it's like hours and do your sleep hygiene, right? training, nutrition, all that's pretty straightforward. With stress, it's like, okay, what do I do, you know, like, you can't necessarily eliminate sources of stress in your life, although that is one way to do it. But it's also how you cope with it. So like these breathing exercises, and things like that are great. I wish there was a kind of a prioritized or kind of simple approach for most people on what to do first. But I don't think it works that way. Because in reality, everyone's going to glom onto something different, right? Like, if you told me to, if you told me to meditate, I'm gonna say go pound sand. It's not my thing. You know, but if you said go for a walk, and then, okay, I got it, I can do that, you know, like, so we got to meet people where they're at. Exactly.
Brad Williams 33:09
You know, for me, I found after I learned this breathing, you know how boring it is to sit there, you know, and I want to meditate. You know, I'd knocked out two birds with one stone, you know, we'll talk about, you know, I've referenced counting your micro minerals, not just your macro minerals, and we can talk about that. But vitamin D was a huge deficit for me and taking care of that was a huge one. So I Married those two together. So I do my belly breathing, while I'm sitting out there getting some sun so I get some vitamin D. So bam, I enjoy it. I love it. I'm not really meditating. I'm almost like kind of fallen asleep. But you know, I'm getting benefit from both. So it's just finding the systems and routines that are working for you. Yeah,
Philip Pape 33:45
the habit stacking that's, that's always really good. Okay, so mental health is another thing I wanted to ask about, sort of tied to that because, you know, at least the more I learned and talk to experts, I'm sure you have as well we see how linked physical health is with mental health to the extent that I've seen people who suffer from anxiety and depression for their whole life. And they just introduce some sort of fitness routine and it starts to improve their mental physical health. What was your experience with that, especially as we get older, you know, and again, the stress probably is tied into that a lot of women I noticed have issues with like anxiety and depression. So what are your thoughts on that?
Brad Williams 34:22
I've seen different things from all walks of life and people on on working on that and finding it in different things. Some people find it in supplements, some people find it through nutrition, I'm one of those people and we talked about that what some were just getting more sunlight a ton of them were you know, finally moving and getting the endorphins and all those hormones from working out. And you know, some people didn't like circuit training and weight training, and that's what I offered. So okay, well, you know, go ride a bike or go do this or go do it outside and something but for most people, it's just know that you have an issue. Know that, you know, maybe there's something out There are some people that there's just no hope you'd ever want to say that, you know, work with your health and wellness professionals on that, that maybe you need more crazy drugs or whatever. But just don't give up. That's the biggest thing. So, you know, being a personal trainer, I'm sure you're the same way we just we get to know clients, we kind of almost become a therapist, at some point, we don't want to give too much direct advice. But what I always give is, I mean, we know this is an issue, this is probably some of the reasons we're not getting the results we want. You got to you got to start searching for answers for this. And you know, I've got some suggestions. I'm not a therapist, I'm not a doctor. But you know, you've heard these things, start looking for it. And just write write in your journal, okay, I tried this, I tried that, you know, I tried a different type of workout, I wouldn't got some sun and don't give up. And, you know, one of the things that I had issues with, from pretty much sixth grade all the way to, you know, my first year in college was very mild, the semi severe depression. I don't know about anxiety, but I suffered through depression. And you know, people who have depression will never let anyone in the whole world know that they have. And, you know, I was one of those people, until finally, as I just can't do this anymore, you start you start looking and not really looking for help, some people need that, but I just never wanted to devote that to anybody. I just went down rabbit holes and went on YouTube, and, you know, listen to experts on podcasts and started trying out different stuff. And lo behold, you know, I find peace with changing my nutrition up and go and more on a Keto low carb diet. And, you know, I never preached that to anybody because there's no diet, that's for everybody. It's what works for you. And then I, you know, we try that with different clients and find what works. But for me, you know, ever since I did that, within less than a week, all my depression, you know, and other issues gone. And it's been like that for I think, six years now. Not once Is it ever reverted back. I mean, that's just tells you that, that doesn't mean my story is gonna be the exact same for someone else. But just, you know, just don't give up, you got to try different stuff never stop. That's
Philip Pape 37:07
the principle I think you that people want to grasp onto is looking for answers and taking control of your health. In my community, we talk a lot recently about gaslighting, especially for women in health care. And, you know, I want to have some peeps of women on my show to talk about that. But it really applies to everyone in that no one else is gonna give you that answer. And even if you have a coach like us, even if you have a doctor, they may not be the person who has the answer. At the end of the day, you have take control and I like to tie it back to the journal and really understanding the correlations in the data between this stuff. Because I've seen very simple things like taking ashwagandha right like I noticed a lot of all of a sudden somebody was in just a woman who was in a terrible mood for two years and felt like like it was a hormonal nine it could be hormonal but started taking a little bit Asha gone and it all went away it's like just from that Yeah, wow, something was deficient and it's somehow helped regulate right and you know, it's hard to figure out what it is so don't assume other people are
Brad Williams 38:03
gonna know or be and you know take take everything with a grain of salt and you know find that people that are kind of vibing with you that have helped you but you know, I have seen doctors research scientists on both sides all attacking each other that know my ways the best way there but otherwise, it's like endless is you can go on a you know, social media rabbit hole like looking at this stuff. And then all the trolls that are commenting attacking each other. Oh, yeah, mine is just like, Okay, I understand that side. That's what they're worried about. And my my side that I kind of believe in, okay, maybe I should not go overboard. So in life, my thing is, you know, find things that work for you. And just do stuff in moderation. Like if you're worried about, you know, I just recently started getting into cold plunging and I saw some doctor renowned doctor on tick tock that was talking about how the heart medical Heart Association doesn't recommend it. And you know, what, why would you go against them? Yeah, I just had a person, a doctor, medical doctor on my podcast three weeks ago, that basically was just trash talking the medical Heart Association and how he has friends on the board, and how they were talking about how they just discovered that they've just totally effed cholesterol and everything about it, but they can't let the world know about it. So it's like this is what's happening behind closed doors. So, I mean, we can only do the best we can do I bet you like 100 500 years from now, we're doing everything wrong. But you know, for now, we just kind of work with what's working.
Philip Pape 39:25
But you talk about being a detective early on in this podcast, and N equals one like experiment on yourself when it comes out. And when you when you talk about trying keto, or going to keto to help when I hear people going to carnivore help. I'm like, you know, there's some truth there. So what is the truth? We need to uncover that and for an individual that could be you know, you just change something that was negative detrimental for you. You've gotten out of the way by going to XYZ, whatever it is, it's keto. Now maybe it's not the same thing that's gonna help somebody else go to their thing. But try it. That's cool. Try it out. Like I've had clients who did carnivore a bunch of things. He's got resolved, right, like gut issues and other stuff got resolved. But then we got them out back to a more balanced diet. And they were still okay. Because we identified okay, it was a couple of things that that were in there that were toxic to you. You know what I mean? So that that's, I think, a reasonable approach to take here, not just assume this is the answer. Exactly.
Brad Williams 40:16
And even for myself, like I've even modified back down the other way, from hardcore keto, to basically just a low carb diet, and I'm able to sustain everything, all the benefits that I had before. And it just works with my lifestyle, but
Philip Pape 40:31
your intolerance is I can see how it'd be like, You got to be careful of like, which which is causing the issue. Exactly.
Brad Williams 40:36
So I think no matter what diet anyone's on, or regimen or anything, you know, just, you know, I think everyone across the board knows that movement is good. You know, drink clean water cleaner water, if you can mineralized water, if you can, you know, non processed foods, almost everyone's on the same page on that. But I think once we get past that platform, you know which direction you should take, that's where all the fighting is happening. So you just kind of got to find it through your own journey.
Philip Pape 41:01
Yeah, and just again, to allude, for the listeners, we're gonna have a little conversation, that's a bonus bonus episode to the email list about one of these controversial topics. So maybe it's intermittent fasting, we'll see. Okay, so one more thing about nutrition is the micros right? Not just kept tracking calories and macros but also micros, potassium, calcium, magnesium, so on? What are your thoughts on that? What What should people track what's important for those over 40? You know, what's, what's your approach there?
Brad Williams 41:28
Yeah, so I came across more of that. Another guest that came on my show was just nerded out on all these micro minerals and all the benefits and no, I knew some I didn't really come from an education on that, but you know, I get my bloodwork done, my doctor tells me I need to, you know, increase my calcium, increase my vitamin D, all that kind of stuff, but no, to really optimize it. And so you got to be careful there because you never know what conditions people have always gotta throw out there. You'll do this with your doctor. That's what I did. You know, I found a doctor that vibes with me that's more kind of a little bit on the holistic side and, you know, have a frame of reference to bounce stuff off. And then if he Okay, is it then I do some of the stuff I want to do. But basically, this guest that was on my show just said, you know, start counting your micro minerals and you know, he everyone believes that different RDA or where it should be. I just said let's play it safe. Let's just Google RDA is what's out there and the Medical Association. And he said you'll, you'll be surprised that you'll be very deficient in some of these minerals. Number one being potassium, okay, let's check it out. I was deficient in calcium deficient magnesium severely deficient in potassium, just like he said, high in sodium, even though I was sitting there trying my best to keep that down. And you really the thing was, you didn't really need to watch sodium too much. If you had potassium high enough to match that sodium. Well, your body works great. And he was right on that. But the other one was vitamin D. Like I mentioned before, I'm a cave dweller. I live in gyms. I don't go out ever in the sun, you know, hardly ever. And now that I do more podcasting, it's even worse. So, you know, I had to get a routine with going outside getting some sun and then supplement the rest. Right? And so
Philip Pape 43:05
how did you hold on how did how did you test all this? Was it like with hair with just blood bloodwork bloodwork?
Brad Williams 43:10
Yeah, it'll it'll show your vitamin D or calcium, magnesium, potassium, all the other ones I don't really test for but I just I basically made a graph took all the RDA is of all the all the vitamins, all the minerals. And then I discovered a cool website, when I'm trying to sit here and you know, use trackers to find all the stuff and I'd I'd see all these popular trackers, I can't remember the most popular one. But you know, it was more of a brain for users to update stuff. And they would totally just skip putting all the the micros in, they would only do the macros, right? Right? So you didn't know how much potassium calcium phosphorus was in any of this food. So a cool website that I found was eat this much.com. And basically, you could take every single raw food on this planet. And it would tell you all the macros and micros for being in the raw form or cooked because it does change and it does matter. So I started doing that and just nerd it out and made a whole graph on it. And that's how I discovered oh my god, my potassium is next to nothing. And had some other issues too. And sure enough, I started working on that food first and then supplement if you need to sell more bananas. Yeah. Well, on my Keto world, I can't have stuff like that. So I have a use for avocados and a little bit of coconut water and stuff like that. And green and green veggies. So after I started doing that all sudden, I just noticed a lot of bloat. You know I've always teetered around single digit body fat, but my goal is I want to be able to get back to but yet still having a social life right. And that's that's been the struggle being over 40 Well, I noticed about three pounds of waterway kicked off just by increasing my potassium right there because that's, that's what potassium and sodium do just do a dance with each other so sodium will hold more water in your cells or in your skin attack. sem will pull it intersect intracellularly into your cells and any excess it'll expel out. So already benefits from that. I felt better in the gym because potassium was plays a big role in your electrical components of your muscles and just felt amazing. So that was another thing I really started pushing on clients, you know, be careful, I couldn't really write anything for them. I don't have the degrees to do that. But just put it on their radar. So, you know, that's all I do is just start, like you said, find the detective and trying to find the deficiencies or, or things that can get them to start looking at.
Philip Pape 45:34
Yeah, I think that's great. Especially especially if you have a diet that is restricting something right? Like, whether it is a Keto or vegan for sure. vegans are probably the most at risk of certain deficiencies that may be found mostly in animal products, not not, I mean, you could pretty much get everything from plants to I get it, but it's harder, it's a lot harder. So tracking these in some way. I like that eat this much.com The app that we use on my clients whose macro factor also can track your, your, your macros macros, okay, be aware of it, because some, like you said, it's like stress, it can be hidden in there some deficiency going on, and that's behind a lot of us like poor sleep. Maybe it's magnesium. Just you just don't know. Yeah, that's another one. Yeah. All right. I want to I want to reserve some time. I think one more. One or two more questions here. One, one was from the community, what about very much older individuals like wishing their 60s and 70s? In terms of muscle gain, like, what can they? What can they expect, if let's say they're just getting into it. Now they're training, they're using progressive overload, you know, anything different, there's really the same principles.
Brad Williams 46:37
Same principles, but just know that as you're getting older, the one thing is injuries that are recovery time getting older, is so much setbacks, it can't happen. I mean, right now, I'm 43. And it can't happen. Imagine, you know, my mom is going through osteoporosis, she's, I think she's turning 70 today, actually. And she's going through that she literally just broke her hand, doing some landscaping, a very soft fall, and she put her hand out broke both her bones in her forearm, like, unbelievable. So that's kind of a thing that we're going to be working on. And she's always been standoffish with working out in strength training, but God that's, it's so great. You're building up bones and all that, yeah, and also calcium playing a big part. But you got to you got to worry about these things. And, you know, that's why I kind of revert back to my doing more time under tension, you can cut half the weight down, you can still progressive overload, because, you know, cut the weight down. As long as you can get the four to six seconds doing everything slow, like I've been talking about, and you can go up in weight go up and wait. There's nothing saying you can't do that. And you might still be able to get to the weights that you were doing before. You know, there's, there's all these theories of you know, that that eccentric contraction or doing negatives, gives you get to that ability to recruit more muscle fibers to get you stronger for your other lifts. But I would still, you know, slow down and watches as you age for those types of injuries. And one of the cool things that I've seen in my life for individuals who have like osteoporosis, and that kind of stuff is, remember power plates when those were big? Yeah. So now there's all these different companies that have like, you know, come in the market that cut the price down. But, you know, the whole theory behind the power plate is, you know, it's using G force, by, you know, moving up and down, left and right back and forward to a certain frequency. And it's been shown that, you know, it's like putting you on Mars or a different planet with there's a little bit more gravity. And you can do simple bodyweight movements with no weights, and get just as great as results if you're using 2030 pound weights. And I've seen that and one of my clients bought a machine for his wife, and she started reversing her, her score, whatever the score was for osteoporosis going the other way. So that's what we're, I'm trying to work on with my mom now, because she's not a huge fitness buff. She doesn't want to go to the gym. All right, I'll train her for free or this. Yeah, for sure. But if I can get her on there for 10 minutes a day, and literally just hold a squat, that's it, you don't have to do anything else. You there's benefit in that. So that's, that's going back to that theory of don't give up find something that's going to work for that client. Love
Philip Pape 49:15
it. No, but the idea of that it takes longer to recover is definitely important, especially if you're getting into it, you still have that level of frailty or fragility. I mean, I definitely seen dudes in their 70s, who have been training for 10 years, and they're, they're stronger than me. And you know, they're fine, probably. But this recovery is still slower for other reasons. Okay, last thing, is there a question you wish I had asked? I know, maybe there's some topics we intended to get to and didn't but is there some burning question you wish I'd asked? And then what is your answer?
Brad Williams 49:43
Tough one. I mean, we're gonna we're gonna kind of talk about maybe fasting in the next little segment, or whatever it is. I'm real big on that whole longevity things. So, a lot. I think I've really gotten into that in the last year, year and a half talking all these experts and just seeing cool Old plunging, doing more sauna type red light therapy, no everything's about stressors and in my life, you know, I understand that. That's the whole business of working out and stressing the body to repair itself. And we knew as personal trainers, like, it's not just how much weight you lift, it's, you know, volume two. And it's not just about destroying muscle fibers or they repair themselves, it's about getting the stimulus to trick your hormones into fixing this problem of being under this stress. So now, I'm starting to see that, you know, longevity is a big thing too. And bodybuilding looks great. But at that high elite level, there's nothing longevity about smashing 300 grams of protein every day, destroying your body like that. When all the signs for longevity says we should probably not be working, you know, all this stuff. So
Philip Pape 50:49
bright, low protein don't work out calorie restriction, all that same thing,
Brad Williams 50:53
it comes back to where do you fit in all this and for me, and my podcast, I want to be that middle ground, the liaison between all those research scientists that are putting out all these things on longevity and other research on worms and mice. And these are the longevity supplements you should be taking or cold plunge and all that, but also seen how they look and move. No, I want to I want to have a little bit more muscle mass and you know, feel like a man and still have my personal training. So I kinda want to be the middle ground and doing a little bit of both, though, you
Philip Pape 51:25
know, I also cannot avoid making that, that declaration that these guys just they look like they're about to just break in half and fall over have some disease. And you're telling me to live out if you have to live long, like that. Forget
Brad Williams 51:39
wasn't paying. Yeah. So I was talking to my brother about this. And he's like, my, one of my goals is to make it the 120 I want to be a guy 120 Still, with some decent size and all that. And he's like, you know, who's got the record? And it's like a, you know, some guy in Asia or I think it was a Chilean mountain man made it to like 133 that's just what's recorded, who knows what happened in the past and all that. And then I pulled up a picture of him showing my brother and he's like, shoot me by ever. Yeah. So that's, that's the other problem is I want to look good and, and be functionally fit not just my organs inside this body that's worried by the sun and wilderness. Alright, so
Philip Pape 52:19
on that positive note? No, I'm just kidding. On that, no, no, this has been awesome. Man. This is a really good conversation. And I want listeners to know where to find you. Obviously, there's the podcasts or 40 Fitness hacks, podcasts that they can subscribe to or follow right now because they're listening to the show. Where else can they find you? Yeah, so that
Brad Williams 52:36
podcast and basically just my website over 40 Fitness hacks.com. And it's for zero not spelled out 40. And pretty much those are my main three, I don't do a whole lot of social media. Even though I am on Twitter. The best is just the hit my website and I have a contact form on there, and just shoot me an email.
Philip Pape 52:52
That's one way to keep stress down Stance. Okay, so I'll definitely put those in the show notes. Of course, so listeners can find you, Brad, this has been a really fantastic conversation. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me and coming on the show. Yeah, thanks
Brad Williams 53:05
for having me, Philip. It's been a pleasure.
Philip Pape 53:09
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 142: 5 Foolproof Strategies to Hit Your Macros and Finally Master Fat Loss
Are you struggling to hit your macro targets on an almost daily basis? Is your protein too low or fats and carbs too high during a fat loss phase, making it difficult to hit your target calories without somehow being off-balance or going over? Philip reveals five easy-to-follow techniques to help you consistently hit your daily macros! By following these strategies, you can ensure that you meet your macro goals and optimize your nutrition to support your fitness and health goals.
Are you struggling to hit your macro targets on an almost daily basis? Is your protein too low or fats and carbs too high during a fat loss phase, making it difficult to hit your target calories without somehow being off-balance or going over?
Today, Philip (@witsandweights ) reveals five easy-to-follow techniques to help you consistently hit your daily macros! By following these strategies, you can ensure that you meet your macro goals and optimize your nutrition to support your fitness and health goals.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
0:00 Intro
3:46 A client shares what strategy worked for them
6:28 Balance the bars
10:30 Copy your best days
13:44 Fill in gaps with protein powder
15:54 Smart swaps
18:15 Use AI-generated meal plans
23:16 Outro
Episode Resources:
Download my free Ultimate Macros Guide and High-Protein Recipe Pack
MacroFactor app – use code WITSANDWEIGHTS to extend your free trial to two weeks
Episode summary:
The journey to achieving fitness goals is often intertwined with mastering the art of meal preparation and understanding the nuances of macronutrient tracking. It's a path that requires not just knowledge but also strategic planning and consistent effort. Our latest podcast episode provides listeners with five essential tactics that are foundational to anyone looking to sculpt their physique, whether the goal is fat loss or muscle gain.
Embarking on this transformative journey requires one to develop a reliable system for hitting macro targets. It's not merely about knowing what macros are but being able to apply practical methods to ensure daily dietary success. One such strategy discussed is the concept of 'balance the bars', which involves keeping a close eye on your macronutrient intake throughout the day and making adjustments as needed to ensure you're on track.
Another key tactic is the use of a meal template based on previous successful days. This approach helps alleviate the dinnertime decision fatigue that many face and streamlines the diet by replicating what has already worked. This replication not only simplifies meal planning but also reinforces the habit of healthy eating, making it more sustainable in the long run.
Protein intake is a critical component of any fitness-focused diet, and the podcast delves into how a simple addition of protein powder can help meet daily targets. This strategy is not only efficient but also eliminates the complexity of meal preparation, especially for those with busy lifestyles. Protein powder becomes an easy solution, and when consumed with meals, it can help balance out the macronutrient profile of the day.
Smart swaps are another tool in the arsenal for those seeking to master their diet. The podcast highlights how cravings can be managed through smart substitutions, offering a flexible approach to dieting. Instead of seeing cravings as setbacks, they become opportunities to make better choices without feeling deprived.
Finally, the episode discusses the revolutionary impact of artificial intelligence on meal planning. With AI, the creation of meal plans can be tailored to individual macro targets, making it easier for anyone to achieve nutritional balance. This innovative approach leverages technology to make meal planning more efficient and less daunting.
As the podcast episode unfolds, listeners are not only provided with actionable advice but also the encouragement to reach out for personalized guidance if needed. The episode is a testament to the host's commitment to helping listeners navigate their fitness journey with clarity and confidence.
In conclusion, the journey to achieving your macro goals and mastering meal prep is an ongoing process that requires both dedication and a willingness to employ new strategies. The five tactics discussed in the podcast serve as a roadmap to dietary success, providing listeners with the tools they need to take control of their nutrition and ultimately, their health.
By incorporating these strategies into your daily routine, you can simplify the complexities of meal planning and macro tracking. The end goal is not just to achieve a balanced diet but to foster a lifestyle that promotes optimal health and well-being. The podcast episode stands as a valuable resource for anyone ready to transform their diet and elevate their fitness journey.
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
Are you struggling to hit your macro targets on an almost daily basis, maybe protein is too low, or fats and carbs are too high during a fat loss phase, making it difficult to hit your target calories without somehow being off balance or going over. Today, I'm revealing five foolproof strategies to hit your macros consistently. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip Pape. And this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights
Philip Pape 00:49
community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip Pape. And in our last episode 141 Why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked. I discussed the emotions that you might feel about your body when gaining weight to build muscle and getting a little fluffy on the way I shared my personal journey regarding body image and strategies to help you navigate these challenges. Today for episode 142 Five foolproof strategies to hit your macros. And finally master fat loss, we are diving into the art of macro tracking for effective fat loss, you will learn five foolproof strategies to accurately hit your macro targets, which is an essential skill to develop when you first start tracking, whether it's during the initial awareness stage, or going after a goal like fat loss or building muscle. Now my goal for this episode is to include some strategies that you may not have thought of, but are some that I commonly recommend to my clients. And the fun thing about this podcast is occasionally I think of topics that are really annoying people every day when they reach out to me, things that are should be simple, should be foundational, and yet they get stuck. And the purpose of this podcast is to get you the information you need to get to that foundational skill level, you know, I want you to be able to be training and eating the way you want for your goals, tracking for awareness, all the things we talked about here, before you would ever think about picking up the phone for coaching from me because my goal is not to take you from zero to 80. It's to take you from 80 to 95 or 99. And what I mean by that is I value action takers. I'm an action taker, I love to try to do it myself early on, and build some of those basic skills. And that's why as a coach, I'm not big into recipes and meal plans and things like that. I'm more about helping you go from good to great and optimize the things you've already started to do. So for example, when people when people reach out to me, they're already doing pretty good, and somewhat consistent with things. But now they want to go to the next level to get to that 95 99%. So the fun thing about some of these episodes is they give you all the information for free on how to build those basic foundational skills. And when I hear that people are frustrated in a particular area. As with some of these basics of macro tracking, this is the perfect way to get you those answers. So earlier this week, a client sent me a message after we had used one of these strategies to help with meal planning. Because in my weekly check in one of the questions I asked is, What are your wins for the week? I asked about your momentum builders your lessons. And rather than say, here's how you should do it. I like to ask clients, how would you do it or given the different options I've given you? What is the one that works best for you in your life and your lifestyle, very personal approach because we want it to be sustainable. So here's what she said, quote, clearly, it's easier if I plan a day ahead, what I think I'm going to eat, I'm not one of those people that has to eat with a feel in the moment. So it's very doable, I just have to put time into it for the whole day, instead of just one meal. I did enjoy cooking some chicken breasts and flavored them really nicely. Working from home, it's sometimes hours before I think of eating because there's no one to eat with or nowhere to go. It's very satisfying to plan the meals a day before and see the totals and know that it's going to be better than winging it. Now, this is basic meal planning. And she had already had lots of success, this client with tracking and shifting HER protein and strength training. And she wanted me to work with her because there was just some some nagging areas that were keeping her stuck and preventing her from fully optimizing exactly what she wanted to be where she wanted to be on a consistent basis. And so I helped her use some very simple strategies and hacks to track better and this was meal planning specifically, which is one of the strategies I'm going to talk about today, but I'm going to mention one Very simple hack to make it easy. And she used that, to take it forward. So I'm gonna give that to you for free today. Like anything else, it's a skill. And if you're feeling overwhelmed, even after listening to this episode, and you want a few personalized ideas, just like I shared about my client, just reach out and set up a free call with me, use the link in my show notes for a 30 minute results breakthrough session, and we're just going to hop on a zoom and answer your questions. More importantly, I think is we're going to get you clarity on the next steps so that you can make progress. So you might be stuck not sharing where to go, not sure where to go next. On that call, it's just you and me, you know, no selling no pitching. And by the way, I'm a pretty friendly and compassionate guy to talk to. So it's the same guy you hear on this podcast. So if you if you like what you hear, it's the same thing. If you don't, then you know, I get it, no hard feelings. So if if you're nervous if you're intimidated about having a call with me for some reason, just remember, I'm a fellow human with the same dreams, the same struggles. And what you learn on this show is what you get in real life. So I invite you to click the link in my show notes to set up that free call. I always have spots available, I keep my calendar open, and then I add new ones as needed. You could also go to wits & weights.com, and click free call at the top and set that up. Okay, let's dive into today's topic. Five foolproof strategies to hit your macros. And finally master fat loss. Here we go. The first strategy is what I call balance the bars. If you use macro factor or another nutrition app, I don't know why you would use another app. But let's just go with Matt macro factor for now. If you don't use it, what are you waiting for? Maybe this is the first time you've ever heard of it, because it's the first episode you listen to. You're really lucky then because I'm envious of you for having heard about macro factor for the first time. Go download it. I'll include the link in the show notes, use my code, Wits &, Weights all one word, to get an extra week on the free trial, it's going to change your life as far as nutrition tracking goes. And by the way, the comments I mentioned earlier about helping you go from 80% to 95, or 99%. Most of my clients are already using macro factor before they start working with me, because I've mentioned it to them and they follow the podcast. And they want to set up that initial awareness. But whether you are or you're not, it's a game changer. So in macro factor when you go to your food log, and you tap the macros at the top, it takes you to a screen called nutrition overview. And on the nutrition overview screen, you can see a lot of things you can see your micronutrients. And you can see your macros, of course, you and it shows you the information for today. You can also view averages for the last few weeks, months, and so on. But just for today, you could see where your macros stand in terms of percentages. So carbs, protein, fat, or I should say fat, or protein, fat carbs and that order. And it will tell you what percentage of each relative to your target you've eaten so far. So there are little horizontal bars, I think of them almost like runners in a race. I wish there was little like, you know, turtle and tortoise and some other animal on the three bars. But you're trying to keep them in line throughout the day, your goal is to keep them more or less in sync, and then adjusting the ones that are farther behind to help them catch up in the race. And I know that sounds kind of trivial, but it really isn't. Because how many times have you gone through the day, and it's now mid afternoon or maybe approaching dinner. And all of a sudden, you have been logging your food, but you haven't really been paying attention to the relative percentages necessarily. And you notice that one macro is far behind, maybe it's carbs, maybe it's protein, for a lot of you it's protein, fats are usually not the issue. And honestly, in my opinion, fats can just land wherever and if they're behind, they're behind, I don't even worry about it. I worry more about carbs and protein, unless you as an individual are the type of person that just avoids fats at all costs. And we need to get more fat in your diet. But that's pretty rare. So what I often see is you fall behind on protein, or if you're in a gaining phase, right? If you're trying to build muscle, you might be falling behind on carbs. That's that's pretty common. That's what's going on with me. Now, during a fat loss phase, it's usually protein. So you look at the percentages, and it's very simple. Balance the bars, when you have breakfast, balanced the bars. Let's say they're not balanced on your next snack or meal. Pick, pick foods that balanced the bars, pick foods that take the ones that are falling behind and helps them catch up. So if protein is behind, then that's your priority for the next meal. If carbs are behind, that's the priority for the next meal. So it's a quick visual takes two seconds, you click on it, check out where you are, okay, you know, proteins behind and we gotta get on top of that. And there you go. The visual tracking aspect of it. There's actually there's research that supports it being a an enhancer to adherence and you know, sticking With things, I just think it's convenient and quick, so it takes less time. And I'm always a fan of things that take less time, rather than trying to figure out the numbers, right? The other thing is by looking at it as relative percentages, you don't have to think in terms of grams necessarily just know that one is behind, and you need more of it. So treat it as this fun daily challenge balanced the bars, and even low in protein at lunch plan, a protein rich dinner, and you'll be all set. Okay, so that's strategy number one. Strategy number two. Now, I don't have fancy names for all these strategies. Strategy number two is just to copy your best days. So this is the meal planning strategy. That's similar to what I used with my client who I quoted earlier. And all you have to do is go find a previous day, when everything just clicked, and you hit your macro targets effortless lessly. You know, you call them an eye, the ideal day or your lucky day or your perfect day. I mean, there's no such thing as perfect. But in terms of quantitative numbers, it's the day that got pretty darn close to what your intended on a daily basis. And now that's a blueprint, that's a blueprint for future success. Now, of course, it should be a relatively routine day that you can easily replicate, as opposed to some oddball, you know, you're on vacation and went, and just everything clicked in that way, a routine day, and all you're going to do is replicate it as a meal plan. That's all you're going to do. It's a template, you've got the confidence, he did it before. So now you could do it again. And now this is your template for a new successful day.
Philip Pape 11:35
Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights, I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique, and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today. I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. If we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show. The advanced tip to take this to the next level, of course, is pre planned tomorrow, right now, based on that template and pre log your food, you know in macro factor or whatever tool you're using pre log it and treat that as a meal plan. Right. That's your personal meal plan based on what you like to eat. Because you've done it before, not because I as your coach or some template online is giving you a meal plan. Alright, so there you go. If you're busy, if you have a busy week, if you lose track of time, if you forget to plan out your day, you've already got your plan in your back pocket. It's any successful day you've had in the past. Just go back and repeat it. And if it was recent, chances are you have similar foods in the house. Maybe if it's even something you prepped, go after it. That's it. It can be so powerful to simply give yourself a plan for the next day and relieve all that decision fatigue and all that stress and just execute and guess what, if you don't do it perfectly, it's fine, you're gonna get close. And as you're going through, you can make swaps it's fine, but at least you've got a template to work from rather than a black hole of uncertainty. All right, strategy number three is to fill in your gaps with protein powder. Alright, protein powder is a versatile tool. It is not I don't really consider it a processed food. It's a minimally processed food. I also don't consider it a supplement per se because it is food. It's not like you're trying to kind of have a shortcut by filling in your nutrient gaps with with a pill. It's just food it's just processed from milk, or it's ground up you know P and rice in terms of a vegan powder. And when you when you fill in the gaps of protein powder, you have a quick and easy decision ready to go and you're gonna hit your protein. One way I like to do this I think I heard this on mind pump a while back is to add a half scoop or even a full scoop to a glass of water and drink that with every meal. Just make that your drink with your meal. Instead of thinking of it as like separate protein shakes, or whatnot. The other thing that holds people up is they're trying to make these fancy shakes. They're like protein powder and yogurt and Pete You know, peanut butter powder and some cocoa powder and then we add a little bit of sweetener or maybe a banana. They get complicated and thinking that protein powder can only deliver heard in that way, guess what, a nicely flavored protein powder and throw it in water, you go the down, it tastes pretty good, super easy. Get a blender bottle, shake it up, you're fine. Or mix it with almond milk, which has almost no calories, but has that creaminess of more creaminess like milk. There you go super easy, don't make it more complicated. Alright, so we know how important it is to get protein, I'm assuming that your protein target is sufficient for muscle building, and you're listening to the show. That's a whole nother topic is what the macros need to be. We're not covering that today, plenty of other episodes that I can point you to for that. But getting enough protein, there's all sorts of ways we do it. Adding that half scoop to a glass of water and drinking out with every meal is a quick way to add in what half scoop has like 15 or so grams. So that's, that's three meals, that's 45 more grams of protein right there. Okay, strategy number four is smart swaps, right? Flexibility. We're all about flexibility and adaptability. And that means that even if you do have a meal plan, it can change, that's fine. If you're craving something, find a similar food that satisfies the craving, for example. All right, so an example would be, you have a sweet tooth. So go for a really sweet fruit, like strawberries. In a fat loss phase strawberries are amazing, because they are these big, juicy, you know, plump, sweet, I mean, almost tastes like there's just sugar coming out of them. And yet, amazingly, they have very few calories, you know, you could have a huge bowl of strawberries for like 100 calories, they're full of water, so they fill you up, they have fiber of all the things and and they satisfy your hunger and they satisfy your sweet tooth. Right. And so now, I just went off on a tangent because the point of this, the point of the strategy is for macro balance, right, we're talking about how to hit your macros. So my point here was swapping one food for another that has a different macro makeup, even though it's a similar food, okay, and that could be like if you're going to have ice cream. And I don't know if these are the best examples in my notes, I actually didn't put down examples how to think of somebody ice cream, which is mostly fat and sugar, fat and carbs, right from the from the milk, and sweet sweeteners and whatever other ingredients, and you swap it for a protein like a casein protein with almond milk kind of pudding, that's like ice cream. And now all of a sudden, you've gone from fat and carbs all the way over to protein, like that's a huge swap. So the key is to find a similar food. Okay, and similar doesn't have to be like the exact same thing. It could be. You know, it could be chicken breast versus chicken thigh, but it could be quinoa versus rice versus potatoes. It could be ribeye versus sirloin. It could be any mix of any macros that are similar but have a different balance. And usually that balance comes in the form of for example, protein density. So even going from
Philip Pape 17:59
going from cottage cheese, you know, full fat cottage cheese to 1% cottage cheese, or, you know, zero fat. Yogurt, right? So any any swaps that give you a different macro makeup. And this is actually going to lead to my fifth strategy here, which I think you can use for the last one, and that is to use AI generated meal plans. Now, this, you might be like, Wait a minute. So your nutrition coach telling me you use AI generated meal plans? Yeah, cuz I hate making meal plans. I don't know why you like I don't want to make meal plans. I just want to enjoy my food and hit my macros. And as I evolve the food selection that hits my macros, that becomes future meal plans just like step strategy number two, right, copying your best days. But guess what? There's chat GBT and all these other AI tools that I think are, are terrible for certain things. They're terrible for taking away creativity. But they're great for tedious things. And so if you have a certain target for calories, proteins, fats, carbs, you just feed it into the tool and say, create for me an entire day's meal plan of, you know, three meals and one snack to hit these calories and macros. Right and just let it come up with a plan for you. Now you can get more fancy, you could say, you know I have these foods. What meal can I make that meets this macro balance, right? Or? Here's where I am on my macro balance. What can I eat to correct it and make it more balanced? Like I'm behind on my protein? What can I eat? So it takes all the guesswork out. It avoids lots of again, decision fatigue. When things seem daunting, you know, technology can sometimes be helpful in that regard. And before long what's going to happen is you're going to find and gravitate to foods and meals that work for you with that balance and you will become an expert at your own ability to balance everything you will know as soon and I've seen it with the worst cases people who are just way off of what they need to be, they have no idea how they're going to get there. And we take one step at a time. And we start balancing, balancing balancing get closer, closer, closer, and before long, you're getting your 160 grams of protein, you're keeping the fat, modest, and you're getting your carbs, right. And it works. So those are five strategies. Just to recap, number one, balance the bars balance all the macros in your nutrition, overview and macro factor. Number two, copy your best days, use the days when everything clicked as your template for future meal plans. Number three, fill in the gaps of protein powder. One easy hack is to put half a scoop in a glass of water with every meal. Number four, make smart swaps. Find foods that have different macro different macros than the one you are going to have. Because you're trying to get things to be more balanced. And it can be similar food, or it can be a completely different food, but just make a swap. And don't assume you have to stick to the exact plan that you put together for yourself because we want to be adaptable and flexible. And number five, use AI to generate meal plans for you or generate meals or suggest foods or whatever that can fill in those gaps. And that way, if you're working, you know, even if you're working with me if I'm your coach, have I used AI in the backend? Absolutely what I encourage you to use AI for yourself. Absolutely. I'm a big, you know, do it for yourself type of person. My goal is to help you find the resources that work for you. And if you want to, if you don't want to use AI find we're gonna find, you know, five other potential options that will work for you. I've got lists, I've got guides, I've got tables, I've got all that stuff, of course, but we might as well use tools and you know, engineering and systems and all of those to make our lives easier. Why not? There you have it. Alright, five foolproof strategies to hit your macros every time. There are many more out there. Of course, if none of those struck or resonated with you always reach out and ask for more strategies for your specific situation. You can do that by going to our Facebook community. Totally free you join, you use the Ask Phillip thread, which is a weekly live q&a. And you can ask me a question. Also, as mentioned earlier, if you're feeling overwhelmed, even after listening to this episode, and you want a few personalized ideas, just reach out and set up that free call with me. Use the link in my show notes. It's a 30 minute results breakthrough session on Zoom will hop on that Zoom will answer your questions and we'll get you clarity on the next steps. So you can make progress on one human to another making a habit together. Just go to wits & weights.com, like free call and or use the link in my show notes for the free 30 minute results breakthrough session. Okay, so that was a fairly short one. As far as these episodes go. I hope it was helpful to you. Reach out if you have questions or follow ups or other tips. In our next episode 143 unique over 40 workout strategies for more muscle energy and recovery with Brad Williams, you'll learn about effective training styles, managing stress and inflammation and optimizing nutrition and of course practical strategies for maintaining a strong, healthy lifestyle beyond 40. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 141: Why I’m Getting Fluffy Before I Get Jacked
Do you struggle with your body image when gaining weight to build muscle? How can you cope with the emotional challenges of getting a little fluffy on the way to your fitness goals? Philip gets real and raw about the emotions you might feel about your body when gaining weight to build muscle and getting a little fluffy on the way. Philip shares his journey regarding his body image so that you'll gain some insights and strategies to help you navigate these challenges. Tune in for an honest, heartfelt conversation about embracing strength, inside and out.
Do you struggle with your body image when gaining weight to build muscle? How can you cope with the emotional challenges of getting a little fluffy on the way to your fitness goals?
Today, Philip (@witsandweights ) gets real and raw about the emotions you might feel about your body when gaining weight to build muscle and getting a little fluffy on the way. Philip shares his journey regarding his body image so that you'll gain some insights and strategies to help you navigate these challenges. Tune in for an honest, heartfelt conversation about embracing strength, inside and out.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
0:00 Intro
3:06 Benefit to building muscle first
6:44 Motivation for building muscle mass
10:26 Women can build muscle
16:29 Your goal and feelings are correct
22:40 Challenges when you're bulking
28:24 Have realistic goals
38:39 Focus on the long-term progress
39:44 Outro
Episode summary:
The pursuit of muscle growth is not just a physical endeavor; it's a complex emotional journey marked by peaks and valleys of mental resilience. As we endeavor to sculpt our bodies, the inevitable weight gain that accompanies muscle building can be a source of internal conflict. Despite knowing the scientific rationale behind the process, the sight of rising numbers on the scale can trigger a torrent of emotions, from doubt to frustration. It's an intricate dance between accepting temporary weight gain and keeping our eyes on the ultimate prize: a stronger, more defined physique.
This emotional landscape is further complicated by societal standards of beauty and fitness. We are constantly bombarded with images of chiseled bodies and lean physiques, setting an expectation that can feel at odds with the bulking phase of muscle development. The pressure can be especially pronounced for women, who face unique challenges in reconciling the desire for strength with the societal ideal of slimness. Yet, it is in the heart of these struggles that the true transformation occurs—not just in the mirror but within the mind itself.
The process of getting 'fluffy' before becoming jacked is not one to be shied away from. It is a strategic cycle that, when embraced, can lead to significant muscle growth and improved body composition. By accepting the discomfort of temporary weight gain, we lay the groundwork for success, whether navigating this journey independently or with the guidance of a coach. As fitness enthusiasts, we must also appreciate the adaptability of our bodies and their capacity to grow stronger, regardless of age or gender.
The psychological side of this journey is equally critical. Overcoming mental barriers involves recognizing that plateaus are natural occurrences in the realm of strength training. The frustration of extended periods of not seeing the desired physical changes can be mitigated by setting performance-driven goals. By focusing on what our bodies can do—lifting heavier weights, performing more repetitions—we shift the emphasis from aesthetics to functionality, fostering a more empowering relationship with our fitness routines.
Adapting to our body's feedback is crucial for progress. When a plateau hits, it may be an indicator that it's time to adjust our strategy. Whether that means increasing caloric intake, enhancing sleep quality, or modifying training variables, such as volume or intensity, these changes can lead to breakthroughs in muscle growth. The key is to remain attuned to the signals our bodies send us and to respond with calculated modifications to our training and nutrition plans.
Finally, addressing body image concerns is a significant aspect of the muscle-building journey. It's essential to set realistic expectations and develop a comprehensive plan to navigate the bulking phase with reduced stress and anxiety. Patience and self-understanding are vital as we come to terms with the idea that gaining a bit of extra fat is a manageable aspect of the process. This acknowledgment empowers us to continue pursuing our goals with confidence and self-compassion.
In essence, the journey to muscle mastery is as much about building mental strength as it is about physical gains. By embracing the full spectrum of emotions that accompany this process, we can emerge not just with a transformed body, but also with a fortified mindset that will serve us well beyond the gym!
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
Today we're getting real and raw about the emotions you might feel about your body when gaining weight to build muscle and getting a little fluffy on the way. I'm going unscripted today to share my personal journey regarding my body image, so that you will gain some insights and strategies to help you navigate these challenges. Tune in for an honest heartfelt conversation about embracing strength inside and out. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip Pape. And this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights
Philip Pape 00:53
community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits &. Weights Podcast. Today I'm doing something completely different. I am going raw, I am going real, I am going mostly unscripted. And by mostly anyone who knows me knows that I could never do something like this completely without thought or planning whatsoever. But I assure you, if you were looking at my notes in front of me, they're extremely minimal. Usually I spend quite a bit of time preparing an outline, references, side notes, quotes, things like that. And today is a little more unscripted. And what I wanted to do was talk about the feelings that I've had and the experience that I've had, while gaining a little extra weight during the muscle building phase. Now there's nothing super unique about this phase, versus the last few times I did this. But these things recur, right, they come up again. And a lot of the things I feel and experience are very common among my clients, and individuals I've spoken to. And they're the fears, a lot of them are fears of those of you who've never gone through muscle building phase before. And this topic comes up time and time again, because we talk about how important it is to build muscle. And yet, if you've got, let's say 20 or 30 pounds to lose, and by that I mean you're kind of carrying a little extra weight, and you don't feel great in your body, and you don't feel comfortable in your clothes. And so you think logically, the next step is to lose weight, even if you do it the quote unquote, right way and lose primarily fat and hold on to muscle. Because you're eating protein, your strength training and all of that, you may still feel like you that's the direction you have to go, because then you'll feel better and you'll be in a good place, and a good level of leanness from which to build muscle. Now, that's not necessarily a false thing, I have had plenty of clients who the first thing we do after the pre diet phase is going into a fat loss phase, who might lose 1015 20 pounds, maybe more if they're bigger, and then build muscle. And we'll tend to work together for maybe 912 months or longer because it takes that much time to go through these full phases. However, if you're not excessively overweight from a health perspective, and you don't mind about being in the body, you're in for a little while longer, I think there's a lot of benefit to building muscle first, just because of the downstream effects of having that extra muscle for your health. But also for your ability to lose fat later and become leaner and get the body you're really going for in the physique you're going for, but possibly at a much higher weight on the scale. In other words, it makes scale weight less important, which is the end goal here because we don't want to be focusing on just that number. Now, I'm saying all this because the biggest fear people have even if they have gone through a fat loss phases, I'm going to gain all this weight back and I'm not going to look great. I'm not going to like my body. And it seems like it's going to take a while because it takes time to build muscle. And the answer is yes, yes, yes. Like those feelings are valid, that you may not love the body or in. But also remember that to get where you want to go requires some trade offs in the meantime, to get something else. And that's something else is the strength and the muscle required to build up that that physique that you're looking for that defined toned, lean whatever physique. So I've come to terms with this over the years. And I was lucky, I was lucky because the first time I ever built muscle properly. And you may have heard me talk about this on other podcasts. I gained a lot of weight in the process because I wasn't tracking my nutrition. And I was just indiscriminately eating and drinking. And by drinking I mean lots of whole milk. In all my shakes, I had whole milk. And I was just eating a lot of food including a lot of processed food, junk food, whatnot. Not a lot of fiber, not a lot of fruits and vegetables, just just maybe with dinner when my wife would cook that for me, but I wouldn't include a lot otherwise, thinking that I just needed to gain tons of mass. Now, on the plus side, I realized how helpful that was to building muscle and strength because all my lifts doubled or tripled in that first that first novice progression I went through. Would they have gone up as much without eating as much I have no Do I haven't gone through it. But I know from working with clients that if you're at maintenance, or if you're not eating in much of a surplus, it's going to be harder, and you are going to build muscle at a slower rate. So having gone through that, and sort of got lucky in that I gained a bunch of weight at the time, not on purpose or not, in spite of my fears, but just because I thought that's what I had to do. And I did it. I realized then oh, no, I wasn't, I wasn't thrilled with how much extra fat I had put on. And that's what led me to my first fat loss phase. And I did that, and that probably took Ooh, 1620, maybe 24 weeks it was it was rather drawn out, because I was kind of learning the ropes at the time, and I didn't have a coach, if you have a coach, you can do it much more efficiently and effectively, with all the plateaus on the way you know how to get through them. But I got through that fat loss phase got down to fairly lean level. And then I went through several muscle building and cutting phases since then, each time learning a ton more about my body, but also realizing that there are patterns that repeat themselves. And one of those is that as I'm gaining weight, when I'm say, four or five months into a six to 12 month building phase, I start to get uncomfortable with my body in several ways, you know, physically and visually. And I've learned to embrace that. Okay. And that's what I'm talking about today. You notice this is totally unscripted, not polished. I'm not I'm not sharing reviews on the podcast, I'm not, you know, giving you a call to action or anything like that just gonna jump right into today's episode. And there's a reason I call it what I'm calling it. And that is why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked. Okay, that's the name of the episode. You know, my motivation is for wanting to gain weight and muscle mass is to continue to be strong, capable, confident to be able to walk into a room and people kind of turn their heads like, well, that guy is an outlier. To be able to be, you know, the fitness guy on the beach, all of this. And look, I'm in my 40s. I didn't start this until I was almost 40. And some of you are wondering, Well, can I even do this at x age 4045 5055? The answer is yes. If you've never done anything like this, if you've never lifted properly followed your nutrition, gone through cuts or books, or even a proper maintenance phase, you can still do it at any age and get massive progress and results. But the biggest sticking point for so many people is the building muscle phase, because it takes time. And by time, I mean, at least six months. Okay, it takes time. Now, if you were to work with me for, say, six months in my coaching program, and you said, I love this message about building muscle, I'm willing to give it a go, I'm willing to even gain a little fat in the process. But I also want to lose fat, I would first I would say what's most important to you. But then I would say okay, we can actually, we can actually break this up to do both. And we're just going to compress the timelines to be less optimal. So we'll spend probably a month with the with the maintenance phase, getting the habits down to training that consistency, then three months or so. Or maybe even Yeah, three months or so building muscle, okay, and then and then a month and a half or so and fat loss phase. And then we come out of that into maintenance. So you're kind of compressing everything. Now if you have a year to work with, you can think of a year in terms of seasons, and periods of nutrition. And once you've done this a once or twice, you can start to synchronize your muscle building and fat loss phases with the season. And where you're dieting at most, two, maybe three months out of the year, but more likely to and then you're building or maintenance the other 10 months. And the dieting phases are lined up with where you want to become the leanest for the year, which for a lot of people is the summertime, right or the you know, beach weather, the warm weather when you're not wearing as many clothes. So if you think about that timing, that means that 10 months out of the year. So let's say theoretically, from late summer, to the following spring, all through the holidays all through the the Cold War, cold winter months, and when you tend to eat a lot as well. All that time is at least at maintenance calories, or building muscle. And if your goal is to become leaner and develop a better physique and push your PRs in the gym, and train effectively and feel great while doing it all. I'm going to strongly encourage that you build muscle which means you want to be in a calorie surplus. Now that calorie surplus is not going to be massive, it's going to be the the amount of surplus that allows you to gain if you're a male, probably two to three pounds a month. If you're female, probably one to two pounds a month. Now do the math. We're gonna go with females here because I'm gonna be honest, women will make up about two thirds of my client base and probably Be my podcast listeners are also ones that tend to express the most fear about gaining too much weight during this process, I tend to have less men doing that even though some do, because a lot of men are like, Yeah, whatever, I'll just I'll put on the belly. And, you know, there's, there's a little bit of a double standard out there as well, let's be honest of how people are judged for that better or worse perception or not. All of that, okay. And I'm not going to get into the politics of all body image stuff. But where I was going with this is if you're a female, and I say, hey, let's, let's build muscle for 10 months, at, even if it's one pound a month, we'll do the math, that's 10 pounds of weight gain. And if you are, like 150 pound female, that might seem like a lot, like 10 pounds of weight gain is a lot, especially if you think in your head your quote, unquote, ideal weight is, say, 130, well, aren't we going the other direction. And so I'm going to throw in a few caveats to that right to try to convince you but one of those is going to be, you know, of those 10 pounds you gain, if you're a newer, lifter, half of that, or more is going to be muscle, and then you only then have five, or four or five pounds of fat to then lose, which will take no time at all. And now you get into a cycle of like, Okay, that's interesting. So I can be spending most of the year, eating a lot of food, feeling great in the gym, getting stronger, my lists going up, getting more sleep, having less systemic chronic stress, because I have these beautiful, like, acute stressors of being in the gym and lifting heavy. And all of this and my hormones are fully firing in an optimal mode. Are you going to take that right, like and that's, that's part of the sales pitch, so to speak for,
Philip Pape 11:38
of one of the things I'm going to go through throughout this episode is like getting back to focus on on the positives, focusing on the positives of what we're getting out of it. So I might ramble a little bit in the show, but hopefully not because it's just you and me, right? You the listener, me we're having a conversation. Imagine your favorite beverage in your hand or whatever activity you're doing. And just, you know, you know, we're having a conversation and think about the fears and the scenarios that I bring up and whether they relate to you and then what we can do about them. So, back to back to sort of my personal experience with, you've might have seen me or heard me joke about the power belly, I talk about it with my lifting buddies and clients as well, it's usually it's usually guys that are talking about that, and we talk about the power belly. And that is just having more abdominal fat, which men tend to have more abdominal fat, but women tend to have more thighs, but everyone's a little different. And I know for me personally, like the first thing to go when I started gaining weight is my abs. And honestly, I didn't have them for my whole life until a few years ago anyway. So I'm cool with that, knowing that I can get them back. And so the power of belly is just that you're starting to get this app abdominal fat. And correlated with that is your lifts all start going up. And so you're, you're more powerful, you're more strong, you're able to push more, you can think of it as like, Power Lifting belly, right, like, Okay, I've got a power belly, but I'm hitting PRs on my deadlift. So hell yeah. Right. So that it's part of the muscle building process, right? Now, that's not to say that I don't every day, look in the mirror and think, oh, man, I'm like, months away from seeing my abs like, I've got, you know, a saw, I'm saw, right. And we see that about ourselves too soft, I posted a photo of myself doing my best to try to get in just the right angle, and show off a little bit of bicep, where I've got no definition whatsoever, because everything's covered in fat. And if you look at some of the really strong bodybuilders or lifters who've been doing this for many years, when they go into a building phase, if you look at their photos at the end of their phases, they've lost a ton of definition. All right, and you rarely see those photos because it doesn't sell on social media, right? You rarely see those. So the picture that you're fed on social media of people who are jacked and ripped all the time is 100%. False, let's just put it that way that is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of people who look that way first of all, and the algorithm is just showing those to you. And secondly, you can only look that way at your leanest at a practically an unhealthy level of leanness. Now, there is a healthy level of leanness that you can walk around with, after you've built muscle for say, five to 10 years, and you've gotten closer to genetic potential. And you're fairly lean, but not super lean that everyone, anyone I've ever met would be completely thrilled with to be at that point. I think that's what we're trying to get what they call lifestyle lean. And yet even with that, if you don't spend some time in a surplus, gaining some body fat and losing a little bit of that definition, you're not going to maximize the speed at which you build the muscle. And you might be okay with that. So you might be okay taking the next 15 years to try to slowly build muscle. But a lot of people I've met would rather build, say 80% of their potential muscle. I'm just throwing a number out there over the next two or three years. Then take 1015 years to maybe Get there, right. And then over the next two to three years, you're making some sacrifices in terms of your body fats. Okay? So there are these complex feelings we have about body image. And I definitely hear that a lot more from women than men, but I have them, the men I talked to have them as well. And there's also a sort of different backlash out there, where very strong lifters will make fun of or joke around with people who are trying to lose body fat and saying like, Hey, don't you know, you're skinny man, you're too skinny, like people will say that. And that's, that's a, that's a similar form of quote unquote, body shaming. Now I personally don't, I find it hilarious because the people I hang out with we joke with each other. And we know we're doing that. And it's all good. But if anyone listening who knows someone else, who is in this journey for their fitness, they're going to be at a different level of strength, and muscle building and fatness and health than you, and also at a different level than other people their age, right. And if you're this person, you know who I'm talking about where, especially if you're a woman, and guys in the gym, make comments about you, that are just unwarranted. They're just inappropriate. And they're stupid, right? They have no idea what you're going through. And by the way, and you could joke in your head, like, I bet I can, you know, I bet I can deadlift more than that guy. Right? But but maybe you can't. And honestly, it doesn't. It doesn't matter. I'm just saying that that's something that, you know, we joke around. I guess what I'm going with all this is, is very personal. And if you're listening, just know that whatever you feel is correct. And also whatever your goal is, is correct. And the question is how to accept all the things that go along with pursuing and achieving that goal. So that on the balance, you are not in cognitive dissonance, but actually very satisfied with the choices you've made. And that's hard, because if your goal really is to get stronger build muscle, and you know, it takes gaining some weight in the process, you have to and this is one of the few times I say you have to you have to accept the fact that you're going to gain weight, so the scale weights gonna go up, and that there's some body fatness that comes along for the ride. That's just a fact. But you also can recognize that there are many, many, many, many benefits that go along with that before you even get to the, to the end goal. Alright, so the reason that you have to gain some fat along with muscle is simply because that's the body's storage mechanism. As you are bringing in energy, it's very easy to gain fat. And you can only build new muscle tissue so quickly. So you know, as you're training really hard, you're eating your protein, you're eating your calories. If you try to speed that up, your body can't go any faster on the muscle side. So it's going to go much faster on the fat gaining side, the counter argument to that as well, then I'm just going to, I'm going to stay barely above maintenance, so that I don't gain any fat. But it just doesn't seem to work that way. Assume that you're going to gain half of the weight that you gain as fat. That's a good assumption. It could be even more than that if you're more advanced. But I've definitely in my current gaining phase right now after having done this three times in the past, using my rough estimates of body fat, I'm about a 5050 Right now, a one to one, which is awesome. That's the best I could possibly hope for. So I want you to assume that at least half of what you're going to gain no matter how slowly you try to go is going to be fat. The positive about that is that you might as well then go as fast as you can go until the point where fat starts to outpace muscle. And we kind of know what that is, we know that that's around, like I said before, two to three pounds a month for men, one to two pounds for women. And so it equates to something like point two to point 3% of your body weight per week. Yeah, I think I got that right point to 2.3% of your body weight per week on the upper end, the more advanced you are the lower you go. So once you accept that, then you know, it's a fact and it's logic, that you're gonna gain some fat to gain muscle period. Let's just accept it. That's the first thing. Now let's keep going. Because if you're not going to accept that, then you have to accept a much, much longer road to building muscle and getting the physique physique you want. Then there's this dichotomy between all of these insecurities I just talked about, and the societal judgments and the people making comments. By the way, get those toxic people out of your life, stay away from them, or give them the peace of your mind. Like tell them, hey, this is wrong. Stop making comments about my body. Like this is not appropriate. And if you're in a gym setting, go talk to the manager. Go talk to the instructor, right. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights, I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they train for other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way more one on one coaching focused on engineering, your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance, and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. If we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.
Philip Pape 20:48
They're the insecurities of what happens when your body shape changes, especially because the place that we usually dislike the most is the place where fat goes to first. And that's not coincidence. It's because we are used to the fact that that's the fattest part of our bodies. And so we've we've tied that to our overall body image. And so it kind of is a vicious cycle, right? So you take those insecurities, but then you take the confidence and the positives about getting physically stronger and building muscle. And we know that changing your body composition for the better, can improve your self image can improve your confidence. And so one of the things that comes to mind is, is there a way to still exude and embrace that confidence that comes from knowing you're stronger, you're bigger in a good way, there's muscle there, right? You're filling in your shirts, you know, slit, the shirts are getting a little tighter. But it's not like in the past, just because you were getting fat, it's because those muscles are starting to pop, right? You're creating this marble sculpture underneath this little layer of fat that's going to just be there ready to get revealed when you when you carve out the fat. And yes, you're going to have emotional ups and downs throughout this. But coming back to the positive of embracing the bigger, stronger body and what you're able to do with that body, not just in the gym. But in real life. Maybe you can help somebody like moving furniture around. One of my clients said that she she had to put something in the car, she went with her husband to Home Depot or something and put something big in the car. And she was like, Whoa, like I it was super easy. I had no idea I'd be able to just like Chuck it over there. And she's in a building phase. And she's she's bigger and stronger. Right. So that's, that's one thing that comes to mind. See, I told you this will be unscripted because I have some minimal notes here I'm trying to get through. But but I'm trying to address each of the things that I relate to. Another thing is, the challenges when you're bulking include us kind of the reverse of what happens when you're losing fat, which is you hit plateaus. So when you're losing fat, we all know we hit a weight loss or fat loss plateau, we get stuck. And we're not sure why. Right? We've talked about that in the past, I'm not going to rehash all the reasons why. But we have the same reasons the other direction, where when you're trying to bulk or lean bulk, whatever term you want to use, you're gonna hit plateaus along the way, for a variety of reasons. And the reason I bring that up here with the whole insecurity discussion about getting fluffy, is because number one, when you hit those plateaus, you feel like it's going to take longer. And now you're like oh, now I have to be fluffy for longer, like, Come on, let's get let's build, let's build it's built. And you know for sure if you're in a plateau, if along with those scale, a plateau, your lifts, all of a sudden that week seem like they're harder, like obviously, you should be progressing anyway. But sometimes the progression to the next level feels a lot harder than the last time. And sometimes it feels easy, you know what I'm talking about. And oftentimes, that's correlated with your metabolism ramping up, and you're not eating enough to keep up with it. Even if you're using macro factors, which I highly recommend everyone listening this app on the market for this fact, the only one that can get you to precisely bulk at just the right rate. So you don't gain too much fat, but you also don't accidentally go into a diet. And if you use macro factor, of course you use my code Wits & Weights, all one word. That's my only plug today. All right. So if you're using macro factors, even then, what I often see and tell me if this isn't true with you, in your head, of course, because this is a one way conversation right now that you hit these plateaus on the scale. And sometimes they your weight even goes down, you're like what is going on eating, you know, whatever it might be, I'm eating 2600 Or I'm eating 3000 Or I'm eating 3200 calories a day. Okay. And I'm still not gaining Well, what's probably happening is if you look at your expenditure chart, it's probably increasing pretty quickly. And macro factor doesn't want to be over responsive, it's conservative. And so the if you're working with me as a client, we see that and I recognize it as a true plateau. We will simply get ahead of it by eating more. And I know that sounds like oh, that's an easy solution. But when you know your expenditure, and you know that the weight stall is because the expenditure is going up, and no other variables have changed, that's excellent information to make a decision from to eat more, without the risk that, oh, I'm going to gain a bunch of body fat, because I'm going past the rate that Philip just talked about of like the one to one. And so by doing that, you can get out of the plateau pretty quickly by being proactive and upping those calories as it ramps up. So one of the big challenges and I talked about this on the heart gaining phase is just eating more and more and more and more. And then, and then that correlating with your feeling of fluffiness, or being bloated or being a little bit uncomfortable, because your stomach is always bold, basically. Or maybe you have a little bit more digestive issues, because now you're just eating so much more. Maybe you have more processed food, maybe you have more or less fiber, right, we know the deal. Eating a lot of food has its own challenges. And so you correlate that with being fluffier, like, yeah, I feel like a slob, right? Like, the I just black. I feel like blah, okay. It feels it. It's like, Oh, am I doing the right thing by eating so much? Like, is this okay? That I'm eating, eating, eating? And yet, at the end of the day, you know, you're not unless you're over consuming by 1000s and 1000s of calories. If you're tracking, you're still gonna stay within that correct ballpark to, to get through the plateau and make progress, but not do it so fast that you gain too much fat. Right? That makes sense. So I kind of wanted to address that piece of it. Because a lot of us will. A lot of people will give up. Like they get to these things. And they think, Am I just pushing myself to be like, too fat? Am I just pushing myself out there? And this is this is disgusting. Like, what am I doing? Right? These doubts that we have. I've been through it enough times now to know that I'm going to hit these sticking points, maybe three or four or five times in a, say eight month building cycle. It'll happen quite a bit. And I actually just went, I think I'm coming through it right now. And every time it happens, here's here's how we spin it around. Here's how we reframe it, instead of saying, oh, that's disgusting, what am I going to do, but blah, blah, embrace the fact that, oh, you know what, I can even eat more this week. Now, you might not think of that as a positive. Because if you're already hitting 3200 3400 3600 calories, and you're getting a little tired of it, that's a different issue we need to talk about. Because if you're at the point where you're 789 months into a building phase, and you just are sick of eating, we don't want to be in that mental state, like physiological. You don't want to be there. And it's probably time to come out of that. But assuming you're not there yet, we can embrace the positive, like I just did this week. And I said, All right, well, I guess I need to overcome snap II too, but I'm going to overshoot my calories by maybe one to 200 every day. And I know it's going to be fine. Because I'm trying to break through a plateau right now. All right. So enough about that one. What else? Okay, so, as we go through this building phase, you're going to have lots of self talk, you're going to have this internal narrative about how your body's changing. You might even say like, what happened, I did all this hard work to get my diet under control. And, you know, this flexible dieting approach I'm tracking, I'm strength training really hard. Maybe I even went through a fat loss phase. And that's leanness, and definition where I wanted to be. And I feel like I'm throwing it all the way. This is where I think some combination of self care and coping with the mental aspects of this is going to be important. And so what does that mean? So first of all, we want to have realistic goals, right? That's one thing that comes to mind is assuming we're going at a reasonable rate of gain. And we know that we're following an effective program, and we're lifting more and more each session. Okay, those goals are the ones that we want to go after, not the a year from now I'm going to be leaner, because that's too vague, and it's too far away. So I would rather you focus on performance, performance, performance, and not aesthetics. Even though my comment earlier was that there is a way to embrace your fluffier aesthetics, especially when you have a shirt on and you just look bigger and stronger. Now, I know this is different between men and women. But But ladies, you know, when you've got those bigger thighs, because you're building all that muscle, you know, that's, that's something you can embrace. Or maybe it's the back, right, like, whatever it is for you. Okay, for me, it's like, you know, having kind of broader shoulders, bigger biceps, kind of a big strong back. Now, again, if I took my shirt off, I would feel more insecure, because I've gotten a little extra fluff. But then I'm like, so what? I'm big and strong, this is going to pay off later. However, that's a little piece of it. The rest of it is performance is this holistic view of wow, I am able to go to the gym every single session and get more out of my workouts each time over and over and over and over again. And if you're doing a building phase the right way. Okay, so just like when I my clients are, are focused, right? But they also have a plan and we're able to adapt and use that data that we're tracking to adjust each week, assuming you have that. And you know that if you're coming close to stalling on a lift, there's a A reason why it's either because you're not eating enough, sleeping enough, taking enough rest periods, whatever, you can quickly adjust and keep moving in a building phase, you quote unquote, should be able to constantly make progress. Now for a newer lifter, that might look like squatting three times a week and going up five pounds every time. But as you get more advanced, might look like your squat goes up once a week, or, you know, or twice a week, and then once a week, right? Or maybe you get an extra set in each week, and then you reset to a higher weight and get more set. Whatever it is, you get what I'm saying it's progressive overload, but you should be able to constantly progress. That is the sign you're getting stronger and building muscle. If that if that plateaus or regresses that is where you get concerned and look at what's happening. And adjust because that's really what we're going for. Right, the aesthetics and being fluffy and all that, frankly, it shouldn't matter at all right. But I didn't want to make a podcast episode that said, no, just don't worry about that.
Philip Pape 31:04
That's not how we are as humans. So instead of worrying about that, focus on this, and this is performance, in the more holistic view. Okay. The one thing I can't always address as, as much as maybe others can, I never really had, I never really had an experience with I'll say, disordered eating, like an eating disorder, or super poor body image, like some people face when they're younger, I never was happy with my physique, I always thought I was either either a little bit, a little bit fat, or a little bit skinny fat. And I simply accepted that, like, I would never be able to change that. And so I guess it in its own sense, that is a form of poor body image. It's like, it's, it's accepting fate. And just moving on, which, for anyone knows me, I'm very positive person like I, I like to reframe things I like to think of, well, it could be worse, right? It could be worse. And so that's kind of, it gives me a sense of resilience of mental resilience that has helped me cope over the years with these things. Whereas others might have more anxiety, disorders, depression, things like that, as a response to these things, right. I'm also a male, not a female. So there's certain issues that I never had to face being a male. And I also did lots of diets over the years. So you could argue that I'm right now in the midst of making this podcast, doing some form of rationalization or denial, and in reality, every time I would go on a diet and restrict, it was me responding to some insecurity I had about my body, right? I'll accept that for sure. If I'm just to, you know, kind of open up my, my mindset to my past here and try to be more reflective of it. So if you can do the same, and kind of tap into your experience with past disordered eating patterns, or body image, and how those resurface, right, as you try to gain weight, and what kind of reframing and mental shift we want to have, toward the positives of why we're doing this, which is different than why you gained weight in the past. It's two different things. Right? In the past, you gained weight, unwillingly, you know, unwittingly, or unintentionally, probably from overconsumption, probably didn't have nearly enough protein that you needed, and probably weren't strength training effectively, you were gaining a lot of fat. Well, now the mental shift here is we are gaining a lot of muscle. Oh, by the way, there's a little fat that comes along for right now we're going to cut off later. So we're going to shift it that way. It's, it's a little bit different, isn't it? Right. And also, the fact that we can't live with the societal physique ideals that are out there are, first of all false, like I mentioned before, right, where you equate a six pack abs, you know, with your worth, which it doesn't even exist for 99.99% of people. And instead, focus on the functional strength goal. Now, if you see somebody online, who's similar to you, who's power lifter, or they lift weights, and they're deadlifting, way more than you, it's your body weight, and you're a little bit jealous of that and want to get there, take that driving energy, like I'm not going to criticize you for that, right? Because I think I think funk I think strength and performance is a great thing to go after. Just make sure that it's realistically within your grasp for this building phase. So if you currently deadlift 185, and you're in a six month building phase, your targets probably not going to be 475. But it's going to be some reasonable level, assuming you know, X number of pounds per session or week jump over six months. And you know, a little bit of conservatism built in in there for your life. And you say, Okay, this is a goal, I'm gonna go. I'm at 185. Now my goal is going to be 305 for example, I think those are great goals to have, and ideals to have when you're trying to build muscle. So, what else comes to mind? By the way, reach out to me on Instagram, if you find this, if you find this episode helpful to you, it's very unscripted as you can tell. And I'm almost like cringing in my own skin right now with the lack of detailed notes I have and doing this, but maybe you appreciate where I'm coming from. Right? What I have found is that when you've done it, the first time you do this is the hardest. The second time is still hard, but a little bit less so. And then it should get easier from there. Now, you may have a different experience, this is what I found. I do have a client I can think of in particular who went through a building phase, and then a fat loss phase, she got leaner than she's ever been. And was kind of on the fence about like wanting to lose more versus gain more and was worried about gaining that extra weight back. And we got to a point after mapping out like what are the micro goals for her lifts? Exactly what programming is going to be best for her because she was kind of program hopping for a very short while they're trying to hit other goals that weren't necessarily string focused. So what is the exact program that's going to get you there in the next six months? How can we go at a rate of gain where the end weight on the scale doesn't really sound scary, but it's big enough to push you to gain muscle? Right. And once you have all that in place, once you have a plan and goals and numbers to go after and objective measures, and you're tracking your data and all that, it really does take a lot of that stress off, right. And so there's there's an element of patience, there's elements of no element of knowing yourself, and knowing yourself better. And by that, I mean, once you've gone through it, you will know yourself better, you'll know what works and what doesn't. And what's the worst that's going to happen, the worst that's going to happen is you're going to gain a little bit extra fat than you want it. And you're going to take an extra week or two in the fat loss phase to get it up. Think about that. If you know how to build muscle and you know how to lose fat. What's, what's the big deal of this whole thing anyway, if I'm if I am going to give you a flippant response that sums it all up is what does it matter anyway, you know, you know it's gonna happen now you may not have the confidence because you haven't gone through this before. And I get that. And that's, that's a lot of the people I'm speaking to is if you've never gone through before, you're just not sure. And you're scared. I get it. And that's why I'm that's why I'm putting together this episode just to say that I go, I have the same fear. Like as I sit here, you know, I can grab my belly fat, and I'm like, Okay, I still I'm trying to gain about five more pounds during this building phase. And then I'm gonna do fat last week. But you know what, I've gone through a fat loss phase like three or four times before, and I know it works. And because I know it works. I don't have to be scared about where I am now. Alright, so I'm not sure I covered all the possible things that are in your mind about this topic. And if I didn't, again, I want you to reach out to me on IG at Wits & Weights, where you can email me Philip with one L at wits & weights.com. For a conversation like CRC just say, Hey, I listened to your episode. What about this, like you didn't cover this, let me know, hopefully, I covered most of the big issues. I think that embracing the power belly, or the power hips, or whatever it is, is a positive way to contribute to your strength, your health, your well being because muscle is medicine muscle is primary muscle is the thing that is going to help you live longer, be stronger, eat more food, make fat loss easier, have even more food freedom, right be able to be there for your grandkids, your great grandkids be deadlifting until you're 95 muscle is super powerful. And if that can overwhelm any self doubts about a little bit of fat gain, then embrace it. If you're struggling with similar issues, as I've talked about today, if you're struggling with what it feels like to gain a little bit, a little bit of fat along for the ride, focus on the long term progress over the short term, look in aesthetics. But you can do it by focusing on short term performance focused goals, I can override those doubts about your appearance. So I hope that all makes sense. It wasn't too rambley. And again, if you you know, if you enjoy the episode of the story resonated with you in any way, if you want to chat about your experience your fears, goals, or strategy. If you have a question, you can always send me a message on Instagram at Wits & Weights, or an email Philip at wits & weights.com. Actually, I also have an ability for you to send me a voicemail, which would be really awesome. I don't get a lot of those. I don't know if if folks are afraid to use that or what? Because I get a lot of questions via text, you know, written questions, but you can go to the link in my show notes. I think it's the very last link at the bottom to leave an audio message and I will play that message on the show and answer the question for you. Or even if it's just, you know, not a message without a question. I'll play it on the show. I always love to hear from listeners, even if you just want to say hello. And as I said before, today's episode was a little more than scripted. So that's that's it. That's it for today. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits. & Weights podcast Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights if you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.