Wits & Weights Podcast
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Ep 85: Mental Health, Physical Fitness, and the Power of Advocacy with Marc Paisant
Today I am chatting with certified personal trainer and mental health advocate Marc Paisant. You’ll learn how Marc turned adversity into a mission to raise mental health awareness, including the essential role of physical fitness in maintaining mental health and the importance of seeking support and maintaining balance. We’ll explore misconceptions about and how we end the stigma surrounding mental health.
Today I am chatting with certified personal trainer and mental health advocate Marc Paisant. You’ll learn how Marc turned adversity into a mission to raise mental health awareness, including the essential role of physical fitness in maintaining mental health and the importance of seeking support and maintaining balance. We’ll explore misconceptions about and how we end the stigma surrounding mental health.
Marc Paisant is a Certified Personal Trainer and the creator and host of the 6AMRun.com and Relatively Normal podcasts. In his shows, he shares his experiences with ADHD, anxiety, and depression to show that no one is alone and there is always someone willing to listen and help. He advocates for therapy and counseling and talks about the years of therapy that he has used to manage his mental health.
As a former collegiate athlete, Marc uses physical fitness to help with his mental health and encourages others to end the stigma surrounding mental health and spread awareness.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:20] Marc's personal journey with ADHD, anxiety, and depression
[7:28] The importance of seeking help and support
[13:27] The potential misuse of exercise as an escape from problems
[17:52] The evolution of his relationship with fitness
[22:16] Philosophy on fitness and getting started with training
[29:41] Allan is grateful to Philip for his refreshing approach to nutrition coaching and how it has impacted his fitness
[30:15] Lessons from youth sports and collegiate athleticism
[35:39] Daily routine for maintaining physical and mental health
[40:12] The connection between lifting and running
[45:51] View on psychotherapy and counseling
[50:37] Debunking misconceptions and myths about mental health
[57:36] The question Marc wished Philip had asked
[59:17] Where to learn more about Marc
[1:00:00] Outro
Episode resources:
Marc's podcasts: Relatively Normal Podcast and 6 AM Run
Instagram: @paisant_fitness
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marcpaisant/
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Transcript
Marc Paisant 00:00
The last time I checked everyone living and breathing and talking right now has a brain. Last time I checked, feelings come from your brain emotions come through your brain. So guess what? Mental health is, is always on the horizon with me.
Philip Pape 00:18
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm chatting with certified personal trainer and mental health advocate Mark Pesach, you'll learn how Mark turned adversity into a mission to raise mental health awareness, including the essential role of physical fitness in maintaining mental health, and the importance of seeking support and maintaining balance. We'll explore misconceptions about and how we end the stigma surrounding mental health. Mark paisa is a certified personal trainer and the creator and host of the 6am run.com podcast, which I had the honor of being on recently, it's how we met and the relatively normal podcast. In his show, he shares his experiences with ADHD, anxiety and depression. He shows that no one is alone. And there's always someone willing to listen and assist when it comes to coping and managing all kinds of stress. He's an advocate for therapy and counseling and talks about his years of therapy that he's used to manage his mental health. As a former collegiate athlete, Mark uses physical fitness to assist with his mental health. He has learned that both can be combined and used to help work through any life issue. And his goal is to inspire others to ask for help. And to end the stigma when it comes to mental health and awareness. Mark. Thank you, man for doing this. And welcome to the show.
Marc Paisant 01:59
Philip, I appreciate it. This is my honor. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Philip Pape 02:03
Cool, man. So I really do want to learn about your story. You know, you've turned this personal journey of yours managing HD, ADHD, anxiety, depression into a platform for raising mental health awareness. Can you walk us through the the key moments of that journey and how they've shaped your current mission?
Marc Paisant 02:21
Oh, wow, chemo? Well, you know, it's, it's, I mean, there are key moments. You're absolutely right. And it's the at the time, I didn't know there were key moments.
Philip Pape 02:32
I live in hindsight, right. Yeah, hindsight,
Marc Paisant 02:34
you know, growing up, and I won't spend too much time I'm a grown up, I was a very sensitive kid. I mean, I was an athlete, I was, you know, one, one half of a set of twins. And, you know, Michael, and I play basketball and soccer grown out went to the same schools, you know, for the most part had the same friends and, and we were just known as the twins, and we couldn't have been, you know, more different, because, you know, he had that quote, unquote, that alpha male personality that that macho guy, he, you know, he didn't really show a lot and he was really the, the, for, you know, for sake of not finding a better word, the masculine one and the traditional masculine one where I was the one that was, you know, what would have would be sensitive would would cry would, you know, I was the one that always wanted to, you know, show emotion. And, you know, growing up, I thought something was wrong with me, I thought that was the wrong thing. I thought I always tried to be like him, even into my early 20s and late 20s, probably honest with you, and there's a lot of comparison, internally, externally. He was he got better grades. He excelled in sports faster than I did. And then he got a lot more attention from the girls who were younger. So at that time, like self esteem is just, I mean, on the outside looking in, you would think everything's great with this guy, like he plays, you know, goalkeeper, he's plays basketball. He's got a lot of friends. He's very personable, he has, you know, he makes people laugh. But, yeah, the masking started early age. And then as I get into college, you know, a key point in college was me being thrown into a just those shark infested waters of everyone was the was the man at their school, you know, oh, my God, I you know, I was Allstate goalkeeper. I was, you know, all county and soccer. I was recruited and you go to a place like Clemson where everyone was that and more. And I really couldn't handle it to be honest with you. So that was my first take at therapy because I didn't know what else to do. I had no one to talk to. I didn't think anybody wanted to listen. And and I finally started just Just that journey to for self exploration and understanding that I could write my own story like I could, I could make my own happiness, I didn't have to look for external motivations. And now fast forward into my adulthood. You get out of college and you're, you probably do the same thing. You're looking for a job trying to put your stake in the ground, trying to figure out who you are. And I ate too much, because it made me happy. I thought, excuse me, I thought it made me happy. You know, without too much spend money, I didn't have drank too much. And ended up gaining over 100 pounds after college and absolutely just hating myself. And I don't use that term lightly. Just hating myself and was in a toxic like, everything toxic work environment, I wasn't happy with my body. I wasn't moving, I wasn't staying fit. I wasn't hanging around with the right people. And then, through a stroke of luck, I got involved with the right therapist. And on and off, I was with him for you know, almost 10 years, maybe 10 or 11 years, where he got to really know me and finally use those words. You know, anxiety and depression. Like I didn't want to use them.
Philip Pape 06:22
Yeah. That was gonna come up, right. Some people are either in denial or not even aware, they have something like, I wasn't
Marc Paisant 06:29
aware of the anxiety, like the depression is one of those words, or it's like, people throw it around. Like, it's, it's, you know, but, you know, I was given him just a, just a high level view of my life. And he says, oh, yeah, you're, that's high functioning anxiety. And I was like, what? And he explained it to me as like, I've had that since I can remember memory like I've had. And I'm like, No, not everyone thinks like this, or has these ongoing emotions and feelings. He's like, No, this is not everyone, but it's you. So let's work on it. So since then, I've I've, as you said, I've been an advocate for therapy. I've been advocate for people finding the right therapist, because a lot of people go in the first time and they just don't feel a vibe. They don't they don't feel comfortable with that therapist. And that's fine. I mean, there's no such thing as a bad therapist. There's just a bad therapist for you. And so that's kind of what got me here.
Philip Pape 07:28
Cool. Yeah, there's a few things there in that last comment you made about the right therapist getting involved with the right thing. I was going to ask about that. Because I didn't know if that was a deliberate choice of words. And it sounds like that's pretty critical to your past, and also how you help other people. So just dig into that a little bit more.
Marc Paisant 07:45
Yeah, well, you know, I had a, I had a night when I was working, I was in my mid to late 20s. And it's one of those nights, it was a bad night and, and I really thought about just swinging my truck in oncoming traffic, like I really thought like, I was like, someone has to listen to me and I, I didn't do it, I ended up calling my EAP of the company I worked for and talk to a wonderful woman on the phone. And she set me up with a therapist. And it was the quintessential therapist that you see where there's the couch and the corduroys and the loafers and the notepad and all that stuff. And you know, I'm talking to him. And I don't really feel like he's, he's hearing what I'm saying. Like, he's, he's, he's, he's doing his job, but I don't really feel like I have a connection to him. So the third session comes up, and he kind of ends it with with like, law. Okay, that's, uh, that's all the time we have. And that's all you know, you EAP affords. Exactly. And I listen, and people have to understand, like, when you're on when you're a therapist on these programs, you don't get paid as much per hour, like I understand that part. But you have the ability to be to say that and say, hey, I can refer you or you can go through your insurance company, I don't accept your insurer. Like, there's so many things you can do. So I had a really bad taste in my mouth for therapists at that time. And I thought that I was just I was just broken. And, you know, I got fired from from that job. And I totally deserved it. I totally deserved it. And then went to a job that had a manager who can't who cared about me and wanted me to succeed. But I still had these feelings that I was going through, and I go through EAP again. And that's when I find Dr. Nadler. And I remember going into like sixth or seventh session with him thinking, okay, when when is this going to end? Like, when is this going to end? And I said, you know, one time I was like, okay, so I guess we only got a couple more of these and he looks, he stops and he's like, What are you talking about? I was like, Well, you know, I mean, it's EAP and he's like, no one your insurance covers this and too, we have a lot of work to do. And I'm going to, I'm going to be with you until we, we take care of your triggers and get some coping mechanisms. But don't don't worry about that at all. And it totally like changed my perspective on therapy. And he's a great guy. And we've had a bunch of sessions. And it's one of those things where I'm glad I gave it another chance.
Philip Pape 10:23
One of the things I wanted to ask you about today was asking for help. And this, this, this ties into that because your story reminds me of so many I've heard where there's various forms of either incompetence, or gaslighting, or just not a good fit, you know, I mean, that can happen, right? It's just not a good fit. Even with therapy, I've heard stories where that just the approach that the therapist takes, even if they do listen, can make can be a game changer for one person to the other. So, I mean, who Who do you rely on most? Now? I guess that's one question I have. And then how can others reach out for help?
Marc Paisant 10:59
You know, that's, you know, I haven't been when I moved back down to Georgia, I, I, my therapist got his temporary license, so we could have virtual sessions for a time as I found another therapist, and I got hooked up with a great therapist down here. And I stayed with her for about a year, but then, you know, I noticed that our session sessions were going smoother and smoother. And I felt really good. I was in a good spot. And we, you know, we decided that okay, you know, it's been good. I'm available if you need me, but, you know, it's kind of like what I tell the, you know, the girls that I coach at a young age, I'm like, my job is not to coach you forever. Like, my job is to prepare you for the future. And I know that hurts. And I know some people like oh, we want you to like and I would love listen, I would love to coach them forever. But like that, that doesn't do anybody any good.
Philip Pape 11:52
That's a form of codependence Right. Exactly,
Marc Paisant 11:55
exactly. And I, I depend on myself, making sure that I'm one that I'm honest with myself, and that I look for the triggers. And I don't just look for time to heal all wounds, basically, like I used to where I would get depressed. And I would just say, okay, in a couple of days and a couple of weeks, I'll be fine. And just write it out, and just literally write it out. And it was a terrible couple of days, couple of weeks. But now you know, there is the positive self talk, I'm not so negative to myself anymore. When I when I speak and there's let's be honest, there's a gym, you know, there's running, there's forms of exercise, there's getting up and dancing at my desk, there's writing, there's, you know, talking to friends that I never used to do before, like, I used to get in a depressed state and go lay down and just lay in the dark for hours at a time. And just wait for it to go away. And I that's not hyperbole when I there was one time I sat on a couch for two days straight and only got up to like, check my work computer, and to go to the bathroom and eat two days straight. And I was just, I was beating myself up internally. I was like something as you need to do better. Like I wasn't treating myself like a friend. And now I've turned that around. And for lack of better term. I'm cool with myself now. We're good.
Philip Pape 13:24
Yeah, that's awesome. No, that's great. So the gym thing, here's what's interesting is that you were an athlete, young and you went to like you said, Clemson the shark infested waters and all that. And so it sounds like the gym or lifting exercise running whatever was not a coping mechanism, and it became one. So how did how did that happen?
Marc Paisant 13:44
That's correct. Well, you have to understand that in a lot of people do. Like from the time I was sick to the time I was 21, someone was telling me to stay in shape. And someone was telling me to go for a run. And someone was telling me that I had a game and I had to practice and, and I absolutely despise the gym. When I went to school when I was in college and high school, I despised it, I I didn't really care for it. It was something we were forced to do, I didn't see any benefit to it. And I kind of just went through the motions when I was there. Looking back, I probably lost a great opportunity to get myself in shape and use that as a coping mechanism. But you know, once I, when I was gaining the weight, I knew in the back of my head that something had to change. I didn't know what was going to change it. But something had to change. And I thought it was gonna be my wedding. And I had nine months 10 months to prepare for my wedding didn't lose a pound. And then, you know, my wife and I started talking about what our future is gonna look like and how many kids we're going to have. And I'm like, Okay, why I want to be around for them. And I want to be able to play with them and practice sports and just go outside and be a dad with them. And that's when it clicked. And I, I just started running like I literally is like the Forrest Gump thing I just started running like it was hard as hell. But I did it. And the only looking back, there was two things that I did, I'm not going to say I did wrong, because that'd be critical. I'm just going to say I didn't know any better. One was the shoes I was running in, I was 653 20. Running in some shoes with no support. Nothing has Nike, I wear Nikes now, and sock and ease, but I was running in the wrong ones. And I was running away from my day when I went on my runs. So basically, if I'd be stressed at work, if I'd be stressed at home, I just, I'm gonna go for a run and forget about it. And I know some people are listening to like, oh, that's what I do. That's a good thing to do. The only thing about that, for me at least is that I still had to come back to that. I still I so it ruined my burn at the end. Like I feel good that I sit back down like crap I still have this call to get on are still have to deal with this. So
Philip Pape 16:04
where's the fine line there? Right between this unhealthy escape? And how escape? Where is that? Correct?
Marc Paisant 16:11
And, you know, the unhealthy escape is basically getting something that stresses you out and saying, You know what, put my shoes on? I'm going because you're taking that into taking that negative energy. And what I've done, I've kind of flipped it is I've I've seen the stressor come the trigger come and I've taken a moment to put perspective around it. How big is this? Is this going to ruin my day? Is this going to burn the house down? Is this, you know, whatever? Oh, it's not okay, I need to reframe, I need to refresh. Let me go for the Romney hit the gym, and I'm going to lean into it. And what happens nine times out of 10, especially on my runs, is if I have something that is complex, that I need to really think about all my runs, I get this, this sense of urgency and this reframing of the issue and I come back and I'm like, Oh, I got it now. Or at least I'm calmer now. I don't, I don't try to not think about it during my run. I actually lean into it now. And use
Philip Pape 17:11
the run to reframe it. Oh, I love that. That is really I could see, I could definitely see that from from my personal experience when I'm like doing heavy squats or going for a walk, or where you're just processing and you're processing. It's a form of meditation in a way, you know, even though you're exactly
Marc Paisant 17:26
exactly what it is exactly what it is.
Philip Pape 17:28
Yeah. So going back a little bit, you talked about a few different phases first, being forced to do stuff, which I get that especially as we're kids, I mean, just just a trivial example, I grew up in South Florida, and they made us take Spanish when I was a kid. And I just rebelled. I did not want to learn it. And so now in hindsight, I'm like, I should have learned it, I would have been, but you know, you're a kid, there's so many things that are different at that age. Then later on, you said that you had an incentive of your wedding, but it wasn't enough, which is what we might call that an extrinsic motivator and it just wasn't sufficient to overcome the friction against it. And then being a parent to help it click right. And I mean, to me that that's there's a depth of meaning there that didn't exist. Otherwise. I mean, how just exploring that a little more. What what do you think was the difference? Because for some people, a wedding is enough, perhaps, at least in the short term.
Marc Paisant 18:22
Yeah. I, I, you know, my, my wife had before we got married, we were together for 10 years, and it's not as easy as just being together. Like, she graduated the year before me. We live separately. We live in different states. It's like when you when you add it all up, we were together, probably less than five are less than four together. But we were pretty, you know, we knew each other we were comfortable with each other like there's there was nothing we didn't talk about. She saw me at the skinniest and she saw me gain this weight. She was not staying in shape either. But she liked salads. And I liked hamburgers. So I mean you can you can understand if no one person is like I really feel like a good salad. I'm like, Okay, you get that I'm gonna get the hamburger and fries. Which one which one is going to gain the weight so it's not like either of us were in great shape. So, you know, although in our wedding photos like she looks amazing and I look like I'm 320 pounds but it is what it is so but you know it got to a point you know, we're living together. We're married. You know we we have an apartment and we're saving up for our first house. And like life is starting to click because it's like wait a second like you're you. You got married like you're about to own a home. Your kids is net like it all started like something hit me where it was like, I want to coach like I want to be a cool I want To be a good dad, I want to be the dad that goes out and I want to I want to go to the beach with them. There's so many things that I want to do with these kids that these people I don't know yet. But I don't have the energy to even walk for five minutes now. Like, I don't have I'm not comfortable taking off my shirt at a beach right now. Like, it's, and I'm not saying yeah, if you're a big guy, don't do that, like live your life, like love yourself. Like, um, you know, whatever. Wait, I was right now, I'll tell you right now be cool with that. But I was like, I started to think about my time as a kid, and what my parents did for me, and my mother was overweight. And then she lost a bunch of weight. And she started hanging out with us. And my dad was always in shape. And he was with us. And I think it just started to click like, I, I want to be the father like my dad was. And I can't do that. If walking five minutes, makes my ankles hurt. Or waking up in the morning, I can't I have to stretch my back. Because it's so tight. It's just all these things kind of just threw themselves at me at once. And I said, Okay, I got to, I got to do better, I got to do better. And the biggest part of that actually wasn't even the running. It was really the nutrition. Yeah. And that was a huge part of it. And my wife helped me out a lot with that we downloaded the app, we started counting calories, we started counting, you know, carbs, and sugars and sodium, things like that. And, you know, once I made that switch, like I dropped 75 pounds in nine months.
Philip Pape 21:30
Yeah, way to do it. Yep. However you did it, you found a way. But roughly how well how old? Were you that if I could ask.
Marc Paisant 21:38
So I got married when I was 31. And this all started to happen around 3031 or 32. So right as delivery right after my wedding. So we It all happened very quickly,
Philip Pape 21:54
it seems the same seems things seem to accumulate, you know, in through your teens and 20s, where you make all the choices that don't necessarily have consequences, and then they start catching up, and you're always in your 30s, around 40. It seems I hear I hear these stories. So let's talk a little bit about your routine. Because I do want to get into the physical fitness side. You've you've alluded to things here. And there. You've alluded to running and and your nutrition. What is what is your philosophy? What is your recommendation on working out for people who are listening in general? How does someone get started? Do they go to the gym? What did they do to get get going?
Marc Paisant 22:28
Well, I say well, I you know, I went through a couple of different things. And of course, you know, I did the whole the I don't know if I can name drop with a gym that ends in olds and starts with a G. But I did the whole Hey, come in and try us for you know, a week for free and you get in there like how did I end up with a three year contract? Like what happened? And so I started there, and it just didn't work out because I went to I'm a first time gym goer, this is back in my 20s. And I'm going in at six o'clock at night after work. And it's like everyone goes this clock after work. So couldn't find the machine I wanted didn't know what I want to do I want to run on the treadmill do I want to do Stairmaster? Did I want to do weights, I didn't know what to do with the weight other than benchpress. I didn't know anything. So that stopped Of course. And then so so basically,
Philip Pape 23:21
you fit into the exact target market of big costumes cover and then stop coming, please.
Marc Paisant 23:28
That was that was me. That was me. And so I just stopped going. And then I started up again. This time I had a friend going with me every day, but or every other day, excuse me. But you know, neither one of us knew we were doing and I was I was getting in better shape, but I wasn't eating well. And so that's you fast forward to me starting to run. And I will say this about anybody who who wants to run or get into a fitness program. Don't join the gym upfront, because it involves discipline, it involves commitment. Test yourself, if for 30 days, you can go for a walk for 30 minutes, five times a week. If you can do that, if you can have that discipline, then maybe try the gym. But I would not say go to a gym upfront and start going unless your plan is to get a personal trainer. Because at least that way you will learn what you're doing. But of course now we're talking about spending more money. And people might not want to do that.
Philip Pape 24:34
But hold on. So I think you're hitting on something very important for people, right? Because I didn't have anything stick until I did CrossFit like 10 years ago and that was because there's a coach telling you kind of telling you what to do. Of course I wanted them to tell what to do. Yeah, and a structure. There's some structure because we do like to go out for the get the shiny thing, even if it's food tracking. If we don't know what we're doing, we just get an app and we just go it may not be the smartest approach until We take that one first step, okay, I'm gonna try protein, or I'm gonna do this one thing, you know, habit stacking the traditional, like, take baby steps and then eventually build. So I think that's really important. So don't necessarily just go to the gym, figure out what you want to do and take one step first and eventually get there. Yeah,
Marc Paisant 25:14
yep. And a lot of us have friends that have gym memberships that they tell us all the time, they're going to the gym, like, if that is the case, go as a guest a couple times, you know, go don't just go and jump in, you know, you know, headfirst, because that's where most of the failure comes from. And it's kind of like I equate it to a New Year's resolution where, you know, every year someone has decided that they're going to get in shape, they're going to eat, right, they're going to save money, they're going to get the new job they're going to marry there are all these like, it's all these things on like, what do you think changes you from December 31 to January 1, like you're the same person. So it has to be baby steps. And the reason I say this is, one, I've been through it, and two, this is how you set yourself up for success. This is how you do it. Now there is someone who I know people personally who have gotten a gym membership January 1, and then you see them in June, you're like, oh my god, you did it. But of the people who do that, seven, seven out of 10 of them revert back because it's not sustainable. What they're doing, what we're trying to do is build sustainability. And that's what a lot of coaches will talk to you about, once you've reached your target weight, target goals, target fitness level, whatever it is, like the good coach will have already talked to you about sustainability before then. And that's what you know, I'm, I'm, you know, training my sister right now. And, you know, she's made very good progress. In the few months, we've been together. But at the beginning, she had this unhealthy approach to it, where she just wanted to, like, lose this part of her body and lose his weight and fit into this and blah, blah, blah. And I told her, I was like I can, I can get you down in weight, if that's what you want. But one, I guarantee you're not going to like me, and two, it's not going to be sustainable. Like if you want to do hard cardio every day, and then, you know, limit your limit your calories to 1000. Like, we can do that. But you're gonna be hungry all the time, you're going to be grumpy, your mind fog, it's going to be hard to work. It's gonna be, you know, I went through, I went through nine months of that,
Philip Pape 27:27
tell me and tell me about it. Yeah, and you know, because you said getting a trainer can be not a shortcut. But getting a trainer can at least help you go to the gym or do a program or something like that, as a coach, I would never have somebody dieting, until at least six to eight weeks in. And that's a coach. And that's somebody who I'm gonna get you the result as fast as possible, versus doing it yourself. And yet, still, you're not going to be dieting for at least six to eight weeks, if at all. Because you may, you may realize building muscle is more fun. But
Marc Paisant 27:53
you know, the only the only thing which I asked my sister to change is is when she ate and to understand where the sugars are coming from. Because a lot of people will, they'll eat a great protein filled breakfast, they'll, you know, they may do a small lunch and then do a healthy dinner and then have two glasses of wine every night. To say Can she ate when she ate when she ate and the sugar where the sugar is coming from?
Philip Pape 28:21
Was the wind to get her to get her to just be aware that she's eating when she didn't realize she was like unconsciously
Marc Paisant 28:27
Correct. Correct. Yeah. So she, you know, she, she has the tendency to be a night owl sometimes. And of course, when you're a night owl, you snack and you have another glass of wine. And it's like, you don't see anything of it. But it's like there's you're kind of taking away your gains if you if you do that. And you know the thing about the coaching and the thing about the personal training is not telling somebody that they can't do it. Like I'm not going to tell you you can't do it. But the fact of the matter is that you might not know how to right now, like I didn't know how to cope with my triggers until I went to a therapist. I didn't even realize I had high functioning anxiety and no, that was the thing. You know, it took another therapist to kind of say, hey, talk to your, your, your doctor about ADHD because from what you're telling me? Yeah, so again, we're not experts in everything in our life. Like it hurts to say it to a lot of us. But you know that stuff
Philip Pape 29:31
the more that you acknowledge that that you're not experts in almost everything, the more you can grow, right because then you're gonna seek out those experts to help you out. Yeah.
29:42
Hi, this is Al and I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape Wits & Weights for his nutritional coaching. His coaching is based upon science research, intellect and wisdom. His coaching is safe, supportive, connecting, and it actually has helped raise I set my compass in terms of how I direct my health, the action steps I do, and really, really has helped me regain trust and belief in what my body can do and how my body can change.
Marc Paisant 30:15
The team that I coached the soccer team I didn't replace was there, the team name is Sky Blue after the wsa team, but our jerseys are purple. So the girls name themselves the grapes, the savage grape, so I think it was great. So we thought of it, we thought of an acronym for grapes, and the A in the grapes stands for except that you don't know everything. That is what it stands for. Because once you accept that, then you're open to learning. You're literally opening to open to learning. And, you know, I started running heavy to begin with, and I didn't want to go, I fell in love with it. I really did. But I also fell in love with limiting my calories and looking at that scale every morning. And if it did not go down by at least half a pound every day. I thought I failed.
Philip Pape 31:06
Okay, so we're saying you care. This was later or this is you cared some of your mental health?
Marc Paisant 31:11
Yes, this is getting? Yeah, this is at the beginning of my fitness journey. So when I started to run in, I'm thinking I'm doing the right thing at the end. The thing about it, Philip, is that people are seeing, you know, saying Oh, Mark, good job, you're looking good. You're looking great sharp, keep it up, keep it up. So I'm here in that and I'm getting validation. And I'm like running more. I do a 5k I do a 10k I do a half marathon like I'm killing it. And then one day I, I hear a snap in my foot when I'm running. And I'm like nuts. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. I'll walk home and I'll just ice it. I'll be good. A week goes by I can't I can't walk on it. Go to podiatrist. He's like, Oh, I think he just did this. That's wrap it wraps it. And you know, I go on vacation, I come back, still swollen. I go to finally go to ortho check. Yeah, you broke it. You broke him. And you're gonna need surgery, I need two pens in your foot. And I was like, So when can I run like that? He's like, Well, after the surgery, you gonna be in a soft cast for two weeks, then you're going to be in a hard cast for six weeks, and you're going to be in a walking boot for six weeks in the UPnP T for three or four months. So he's like, minimum, six to nine months. And I was like, him I was so my life was running at that time I had but like you talk about CrossFit. And the people who are just like, that's a religion running was my religion, I could do like, I didn't want to go to the gym, people like you should try swimming, I don't want to swim, I want to run
Philip Pape 32:59
bike. And now it's just ripped away from you
Marc Paisant 33:03
ripped away from me. So I go through that process, I gained about 40 pounds back. And I go to the physical therapy and it's just it's not feeling right. My foot and ankle are just not I'm still in pain. And I'm pushing and pushing myself through runs every run hurts. So finally go back to my doctor. I'm just like, I don't I don't know what else is going on. And he tells me like I need to go back in like, I don't know what happened, I need to go back in and show me where the pain is real quick. And I showed him on the side of my foot. So we go on ankle and he goes in. And he gives me a micro fracture and cleans up a bunch of cartilage damage. And it was like, it was just thank God, like he said, Ask that one extra question. And this was, this is you know, scoping. So it was you know, in and out. And within two weeks I was walking. It was like, all the pain is gone. All the pain is gone. started running again. And this is where like things get bad. Because I start starving myself. And I start running about 120 to 150 miles a week. I'm 6565 and I get down to 206. And I still want it and my wife looks at me and people look at me like okay, like you're good. And I looked at myself in the mirror. I'm like I still don't like this. Like I didn't like 320 I don't like 206 Something's not clicking. And finally one day I said and I had been to the gym again. Same thing I told you before is I just didn't. I didn't know what to do. I was like, I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna do the physical. I took the two Time to work on my mental health with a therapist who was a mental coach, I need to do the same thing for my physical health. And I have never, ever looked back, it was the best decision I have made in the past couple of years in my life, because one I love to learn, I'm always in a growth mindset and to just, you know, being physically strong and mentally strong at the same time, like I can't, I can't really explain that feeling like it is it is euphoric. Because I was doing one, but not the other. End. Now I'm doing both. So
Philip Pape 35:40
I'm missing a little bit of a piece of the puzzle here because I want to connect the physical mental health, which comes first. And maybe that that is too simplistic, but from the point you got your foot repaired, but then you started doing all this running and losing all this weight. And then you said, you got a coach, and then never looked back on that. So the feeling the specifics on that piece for us.
Marc Paisant 36:02
So, you know, we, you know, I was in the DC metro area. And we, you know, a few years ago, I lost my mom and she and she lived down here and my my wife had made a decision that we wanted to move down here to be closer to my family and her family. And you know, so the stress of the move, the stress of getting kids into new schools is like everything, I wasn't able to work out that much. And, you know, started to gain a little weight, and then I lost it by running. And then, you know, it was doing a lot of work at that specific time, mentally. Like I was in therapy. I was working on my mental health, I was making sure I was taking care of that every day in the mirror, whether I was a 206 to 15 to 25 to 35 back to 220 back and you see where this is going because that's one of the most unhealthiest things to do is Yo yo, I just never was something was in my head. I knew something was missing. I knew something was missing. And you know, COVID hits and no one's going to the gym. You know, I'm just running and still, I wish I could I wish I could verbalize like the feeling in my head because don't get me wrong. I looked in shape. I looked in shape. I looked happy. You would think he's going to therapy. He's good. But my body I didn't like my body. I didn't like it. And yeah, I just one day thing about the thing about runners and if you're a runner, I apologize. But you know this already, if you just run you know, you're pretty weak. Like that's it is what it is like you're pretty weak. You have your graded endurance, like you're really using a lot of the long muscles and you've got to steal, but oh my goodness, like, I went to benchpress and the you know, I put just one plate on and I was like, oh my god, this is heavy. This is that. Why is this so heavy?
Philip Pape 38:02
Okay, so that's what we're talking about a strength training, because that's what I didn't. I didn't connect the dots. Okay.
Marc Paisant 38:06
Yeah, it was strength training. And so yeah, exactly. So and, you know, I didn't and I made the decision. I was like, I'm gonna, you know, and what happened? And I'll tell you, right, what would happen is I went into my first training session. And it was only 30 minutes. And I felt like I had been there for hours because this guy was just killing me. I thought he was killing me. But I just I was just weak at the moment. But, you know, he automatically challenged me, just like therapists challenge their, their, their clients, to look for triggers to you know, be nice to themselves to open up be vulnerable, things like that. That was the first time that someone was challenging me that I didn't really have. I wasn't responsible for going like he wasn't a coach and the fact that my how my high school and my soccer my college coach was that I was I had to go to practice. But he was kind of challenging me to be a better version of myself. And I started to look at that I'm like, There's something here. There's something here that I can connect to what I'm doing in the rest of my life. And I think a lot of people miss that point filled by and a lot of people miss the fact that they see the gym as this place where people go to get big and vanity and they they, they see that but it's like, you know what this is? This is a place where people go to be at peace. You know, this is a part of my day. This is a part of, of, you know, my morning routine. This is a part of my relationship with my sister. You know, this is a part of, you know, me being a better version of myself. And I think people don't realize that until they're involved with it.
Philip Pape 39:53
Yeah, man. I totally agree. I totally agree that and those of us who will I was never an athlete and then it wasn't a vanity thing, because I just never aspire, thought I could aspire to that. And then when I got into lifting, you know, definitely the side benefits are a physical manifestation of your health. But, you know, we're, I don't know, if we were talking here, yeah, early in the show about meditation about lifting being a form of meditation. And actually, my friend Carl and I, we both know, we're talking about that on his show, or my show one of our shows about how you just get in the moment. And it's not just the act, right, it's that you are changing something about you permanently, permanently, and growing. And I guess I don't know much about running other than I've done it over the years and never liked it. To an extent I like sprinting, I'll be honest, but you can only I guess you can only progress so much in that way. Doing running is that is that the contrast for me because I wanted people to make a very concrete contrast with like maybe the physiological connection between lifting something heavy, being that human experience being in the moment, and what you get out of it and compare it to other forms of movement.
Marc Paisant 41:04
I want people to, to understand this wholeheartedly. Lifting, helps your runs, literally helps them it's not hyper. It's not me just saying it. But anyone who's listening, who's a runner understands that feeling of like, you know, we have when you start running, you're like, Oh, this is so hard. How do I do this, and you have this thought in your head, like, okay, it's gonna get easier and easier and easier. The runs, if you don't do weight training, the runs never get easier, you literally are just pushing yourself through all the time. Like, I literally thought to myself, like, okay, it's gonna eat it. And mentally, I was just exhausted, because I'm telling myself to keep going and keep going and keep going. Because you don't understand like how much of your core, how much of your hips, how much of your upper body that you actually use when you're running. And I started to build that little bit of core strength. In the first couple months of working out in the gym. Every one of my runs was easier. Every one of my runs was easy. And I was going the same speed going the same distances. And it was all because I built up the other muscles in my legs, my core strength. And I tell you right now, running doesn't really help you. With the weights. Actually, it does the opposite. It kind of kills your gains, I'm sorry, it's true. It does, I've lived it. But lifting helps your runs. It's amazing. And what people don't understand is there's a big thing, especially with women that say I don't want to get bulky, I don't want to get bought, I don't think people really understand what it takes to bulk. Like none of us are going out eating 1000s of calories that we need to burn off every day. Like you don't just bulk by going to the gym every day, like bulk about your nutrition. Exactly. But I tell you what, if you are eating correctly, and you know, running burns all your carbs and all your sugar and you put it right back in your body. But if you do the right thing and keep your heart rate at the right levels, and you will build that muscle that you've that you've absolutely killed running. And because think about it, it's physiological. And you know this already, like when you run you have little micro tears in your muscles, just like the same when you're lifting weights. But when you run like when you're burning those calories, those your sugars and carbs your body wants those immediately. So you put those right back in it does not help your muscles rebuild your literally your muscles. Yeah, but when you do the weight portion of it, and your body and you fill that with proteins, amino acids, the fats, things like that, and you actually start building that muscle. It it's an it's an amazing feeling. And I think people really should at least try that. You don't have to go heavy like no one's saying you go heavy. I'm not telling you to
Philip Pape 44:22
go really heavy. Relative you know,
Marc Paisant 44:25
I mean, if you don't start with three plates on your squat, yeah. Are we even talking? No, but it's like and the cool thing about people think I gotta get a trainer every day that you can get a trainer for once a week for 30 minutes. Literally once a week for 30 minutes and that will be enough for a lot of people that will be enough. And trainers are great too. They're like if you ever need any help, like text me or call me like trainers are all my trainers we're friends now his daughter plays on a basketball program that I daughter play we see each other like we're friends now we're he's cool as hell. So Oh,
Philip Pape 45:01
just having somebody there, you could ask a question to add sort of the when it comes down to because I know, even to this day, I'm in a barbell club that has a really good trainer, and I've squatted 1000s of times. And yet Sal said in the video, and there's some little thing he'll see, so it's worth it. For sure. Yep. Yep. Yeah, man. Yeah, no, I could talk about lifting all day. With the running. One other thing came to mind is how muscles are also a glycogen sink. You know? So when we're talking about blood sugar control and all that it's really, really helpful. But running I mean, it's, it's you're doing, you're doing a million partial squats, right? As as you run. So even if you don't run all the sudden you get stronger, everything in your life, including running just feels lighter and easier. Yes. Not only all of that, like we want to be capable. So and then it ties into the mental health. So let's segue back to back to that we talked about mental health. We talked about psychotherapy and counseling, kind of the more serious aspect of when people have a real issue that they have to deal with. How can someone be aware of that and know that they need counseling? And then what are your thoughts on the psychotherapy? We talked about it a little bit, but just want to touch on that?
Marc Paisant 46:13
Well, here, I'll start by saying this, everyone, everyone could benefit from counseling or therapy, everyone could do it. Like it's not. When when you mentioned that I'm trying to get rid of the stigma on mental health, like, part of that is understanding that when we bring up mental health, it doesn't have to be this depressing. Sad. Oh, my gosh, yeah. And the thing, it's not, it's not you, it's like we see it everywhere, where it's everything that happens negative in the world, or in our lives. Like, that's when we start talking about mental health. That's when we start talking about oh, have you do you see a counselor that's, but that's like that, shouldn't I don't just go to the gym when I'm weak. You know, I'm gonna I went today, and I think I'm pretty strong like, but because it's that maintain that maintenance of your life. So what I want people to understand is that you don't have to be going through life altering changes, you don't have to have, you know, witnessed the death of a family member or just gotten laid off or, or broken up with your significant other or, you know, whatever. To really talk about your mental health, mental health is when someone's interviewing for a job and they feel those butterflies in their stomach. You know, it's when you wake up in the morning, you think, Okay, I gotta, today is going to be the day that I you know, it's mental health is all the time. And that's why I think it's so important to at least continue this discussion. And I know people think that I probably talk about it too much. And honestly, I don't care because I want to talk about it more and I want people to be okay, talking about and being vulnerable. And it's, you know, it's nothing that has to be prefaced with like something okay, hey, guess what I'm gonna I really want to talk to you about mental like, no, it's, it's, it's you coming in and being honest with your loved ones and telling them that you're stressed, telling them that you don't feel up to it today? Being honest, and how many times that we forced ourselves to do things that we did not want to do? And the only stories we hear about in regard to that or is, is I didn't want to do that, but I did it. I'm glad I did. We never hear the stories of that. I didn't want to do that. I did it. And I feel worse for doing it. We don't hear those because no one talks about that one. That's the one I want to hear about. Because someone didn't listen, you didn't listen to yourself you got like it's one of those things where yes, you know, behavioral based cognitive based therapy, psychotherapy, all that stuff is great, you know, Medic, getting the right medication, making sure people that are bipolar, get the right medication, or major depressive episodes and all this stuff. Like I want that to of course be a focal point I want people those people to be taken care of. At the same time. I want people to understand that. The last time I checked everyone living and breathing and talking right now has a brain. Last time I checked, feelings come from your brain emotions come through your brain. So guess what? Mental health is? is always on the horizon with me.
Philip Pape 49:39
So many thoughts, you sparked all these synapses in my brain? Because Oh, man, okay, so there's a bunch of things. I'm gonna break this down. The first thing the idea that mental health is actually the root of everything is that's kind of where I'm glad you kind of ended there. Because we are talking about physical health, but none of that means anything unless you have this brain that lets you think and control your muscles and control your hormones. And I mean, it does everything right, you think my hormones are controls that controls everything, let alone the amazing creative thinking and ability to empathize and the ability to like know what other people are thinking, which is unique probably to humans, we think maybe dolphins can do it or something. And in fact, there's some aspect of human evolution, if you look at how only tribes survived, there's a genetic component to being social creatures using our mind and understanding others minds anyway, I'm going off on philosophy or put a few other things. I used to be the type of guy that was very cynical about formal men's formal psychotherapy. And, you know, I use the word shrink, disparagingly in the past, and so on. I don't do that anymore. But I've also never sought formal therapy. However, in the last year and a half, two years since I've been in this nutrition, coaching space, doing podcasting, and talking to a lot of people, especially people who caused me to be more introspective like you, Carl, and many other people that I've met, who also inspired me to look into positive psychology, which is the idea of not always focusing on all the ills of mankind. But even when there aren't ills that we still need to elevate ourselves, I realized that therapy is all around us, if we look for it, it's our spouses, it's our friends. When you help somebody else, the evidence shows you get the biggest boost of happiness just from helping somebody. And then again, podcasting. So I just this is my take away, it's like a rune big revelation. And I want people to hear that, like everybody can be your therapy therapist, so to speak, without seeking formal therapy. But the social connection and relatedness is probably the key that the glue, the glue that holds it all together. What do you think about my read?
Marc Paisant 51:49
Definitely is it definitely isn't, I want people to understand, like the first episode of relatively normal was titled, be a friend. And what I meant what I meant by that is, think and it takes intent by people need to be intentional with this. But yeah, take just the three words. How are you? How many times that's that said in a day? How many times you hear that in a week? How many times? How's it going? What's up? You know, whatever it is? And how many times we actually answer that question. We rarely do we rarely come off cliche, or in passing whatever. And, you know, my how're yous are authentic, like, I want to know, and I think more people should want to know, because I forgot who said it to me Lastly, but you know, it, you know, we, I say it all the time, as you never know, what someone is going through. Like, think about, think about, maybe this conversation is the one that saved somebody, you know, maybe this time I spend is what gets somebody, you know, over the hump. And I'm not I don't mean to put pressure on people. Like that's not the point of all this. What I mean to do is, is have people really be intentional with not just the words they say, but the conversations they have, because this is a thing that happens all the time, and especially around men, like women do it all the time, but especially with men in corporate environments. So she went around, is that think about I want everybody listening to like the next meeting, you're at the next conversation you have with multiple people. I want you to take just count of how many times someone speaks right after someone stopped speaking, like literally right after. And then think to yourself, there's no way they could have paid attention or been listening to what they were saying. They were just waiting for their turn to talk. That's all they were doing. And, you know, men kind of do it as banter because it's fun. We go back and forth. We're learning. We're saying movie lines, and we're being stupid and silly. But I can't tell you how many times early in my career, early in my life where I would be in the circles and people will be talking it'd be a serious conversation. And right when someone would talk about something that affected them, the next person would talk about something that affected them to Oh, yeah, I know exactly. Talking about this happened to me and blah, blah, blah. It's like, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Slow down. We need to go over with this person just was vulnerable enough to tell us about. Let's not just jump into comparisons. And to be honest with you, I really don't care what you have to say right now because my friend is hurting. I don't want to jump in and say I'm guilty of this. I used to do it. But it's one of those things where you have have to be intentional with as this person is speaking, you're taking in what they're saying you're being an active listener, and then you're pausing for a moment after they're done talking, because you want to take it in. And these are the things that you kind of learn, once you do it long enough, and once you start, like, that's what a friend does, a friend doesn't just jump in to say, hey, the same thing happened to me. This is what I did. You should do it, too. It worked like a charm. And it's like, Oh, thank God. I mean, and it's, you know, man, we're built to be like, we're built to be problem solvers. I understand that we shouldn't stop doing that. But at the same time, it's like, listen, not, not every you know, screw needs your screwdriver. Like sometimes you need to sit back and watch somebody else fix their own problems, because that's what they want to do.
Philip Pape 55:55
You got me very hyper conscious right now about my listening skills with everything you just said. Because that is so intense, man. Like, it's true that we interrupt and we jump to conclusions and caught husbands and wives. It's just a classic stereotype of, I immediately want to fix my wife's problem as soon as she and look now I'm talking about myself, but I think I am really
Marc Paisant 56:21
my wife called me out. My wife called me out on that she literally did, because we were talking about love languages and what she needs and the quality time she needs. And she told me, she's like, You don't, you don't really listen to what I'm saying. You cut me off a lot. And then it goes off the rails. And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I do that. I do that. So now I'm very conscious about getting into a mood where it's like, she is talking. She is explaining her day, she's nice enough to include me in her decompression of her day. Like that's, that's that that's only I get that like, only I get that in this world. I'm the only one that gets that. And I'm taking this for granted. So, yeah, it really is. It really is.
Philip Pape 57:05
Wow, that's a lot for people to think about and all this stuff. I would have said a few years ago, that doesn't matter for your physical health. And I completely the opposite now, right? Like just and you put it in perspective throughout this, this conversation. So I've had about five or 10. Other questions I could have asked. But since we're short on time, I'm going to leave you with my favorite penultimate question mark. And that is, is there something you wish I had asked you in? What is your answer? Um,
Marc Paisant 57:35
something I wish you had, you know, I wish you had asked me. How are you? Now I'm kidding, I'm joking.
Philip Pape 57:48
But, you know, what, we could have just said a guy, like we always do.
Marc Paisant 57:52
I'm joking. You know, you know, I wish you would ask me like how this whole change in my perspective and becoming that whole mind body connection has affected my relationships with with people in my life. Because, you know, it's, I'll be honest with you, my, my circle has gotten smaller and smaller, as I've learned more about myself. But as you start to figure out, where's the where's the positive energy coming from? Because I'm a big, I become an energy person, not the guy who's gonna go buy crystals and lay them out. And I'm not vegan. I'm not gonna, I'm just kidding. I'm joking. I don't want everybody giddy at me. But
Philip Pape 58:31
I think you'd lost zero subscribers of this podcast, so
Marc Paisant 58:35
good. So but you know, I'm all about the energy I put out, and the energy I get in, and I think about what is this person adding to my life? Because I know I'm confident enough to know that I add to other people's lives. And that's not me being cocky. That's just me knowing what I'm worth. So I think, what is this person and my my circle is actually quite small now. So that's the only thing I wish you would ask, but I think I answered it. Now you
Philip Pape 59:04
answered it. And that's a reminder that it's not about how many friends we have on social media, or how many friends we think we have in real life if they're not real true friends that add value to us and vice versa. So great message. All right, man. Well, where can listeners learn more about you?
Marc Paisant 59:19
Well, I'm usually on either Instagram or LinkedIn. I do a lot of work on LinkedIn because I like that platform and but IG you can find me at pays not underscore fitness for the physical fitness part. And you just go to a relatively normal podcast on IG to find more about that. And of course, you can head up to 6am run on Instagram, as I am the ambassador and host of that show too. So we're doing a lot with 6am run right now. So I really liked that company. And I think it's not just about running a lot to do with running has run in the title but you know, really good people really good community and a lot of good motivation there. I
Philip Pape 1:00:00
agree. Yeah. encourage everybody who's listening to follow those podcasts. Very easy to do right now. I was on 6am which is which I was surprised because I don't run. And you're like, This is not just a running POC and it worked out really well because I got to meet you very special guy with a wonderful story. And I think people get a lot from this episode. So thank you so much for coming on.
Marc Paisant 1:00:21
I appreciate it. Phil, let me take care of yourself.
Philip Pape 1:00:25
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 84: Why Working Out LESS Burns More Calories and Boosts Your Metabolism and Fat Loss
Can you supercharge your metabolism and maximize fat loss with LESS exercise? In today's episode, we talk about the four key components of metabolism and debunk the myth that more exercise equals more calories burned. We also dive into the drawbacks of over-exercising and the role muscle tissue plays in boosting metabolism.
Can you supercharge your metabolism and maximize fat loss with LESS exercise? In today's episode, we talk about the four key components of metabolism and debunk the myth that more exercise equals more calories burned. We also dive into the drawbacks of over-exercising and the role muscle tissue plays in boosting metabolism.
We talk about strength and cardio training, underlining the multiple benefits of cardio, from enhancing heart health to boosting lung capacity, while also spotlighting the lesser-known yet equally important gains from walking. Overall, you'll learn how to make your workouts not just rigorous but efficient and sustainable for building muscle, losing fat, and improving your body composition.
Tune in to this episode and tap into the science of getting fit.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[1:55] Reading of two 5-star reviews
[3:23] Components of metabolism
[4:49] Exercising more to burn calories
[7:16] The importance of strength training and muscle
[8:58] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[11:26] Constrained energy model
[13:43] Benefits of working out less
[15:26] Effective amount of cardio
[19:04] What is a results breakthrough session, and how to get a free call
[20:37] Outro
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
So if you're running a lot, right, if you're a marathon runner, that's the extreme. But even if you're just running on a regular basis, your body's gonna adapt to that. It's going to become more calorie efficient. And so it is going to burn fewer extra calories for extra, every extra calorie of work put into it, and it becomes less and less efficient. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I hope you enjoyed our last episode 83 with Christopher Mar, where we explored stress management and the fascinating intersection of eastern and western medicine in the context of your body's well being today for Episode 84, titled Why working out less burns more calories and boosts your metabolism and fat loss. We are myth busting the idea that the more you workout, the higher your expenditure, or your daily calories burned, more exercise, more cardio, more soreness, more sweat more suffering, these are not necessary. And in fact exercise are what we're going to use, we're going to use the word training from here on out can be both intrinsically rewarding and be fun, and a way to massively ramp up your metabolism to make fat loss easier for the rest of your life. No, you do not have to get destroyed, wiped or drained by your workouts. You can do a lot less during the week and make tremendous progress, in fact much more progress than most people who are slaving away with exercise all the time and doing it effectively. Now before we get into the details, I did want to read a couple recent five star reviews from listeners. The first one is by the very own Dr. Bill Campbell of the body by science research review. I'm a subscriber to that I was thrilled to see that he wrote a review. And he said, quote, a well informed podcast that gets away from the fats and brings the attention back to where things should be relative to our exercise and nutritional programs on the things that are sustainable and repeatable over time. I'm glad he gets it. And I've been following Bill's work for a while now. He will be coming on for an interview soon. So if you want to catch that, make sure to subscribe again, subscribe or follow to this podcast right now so you don't miss it. And if you're watching the video do the same. Another review is from Heather former hooter who says quote, I liked the show more than I was expecting to Okay, so I got to do a better job on my marketing there. Great expert guest very nuanced and non judgment, judgmental discussion about health and weight, highly recommend star shooting star Modi. All right. Thank you, Heather, especially for the words nuanced and non judgmental because that is definitely what we are going for. All right. Now let's dive into today's topic. The title of this episode is why working out less burns more calories and boost your metabolism and fat loss. And to do this, we do have to understand a little bit more about metabolism. I'm going to try to keep it brief. You know how I can get sometimes I get excited about this. But I'm going to first define the components of metabolism. talked about this before in several shows, but it's always good to have a refresher. There are four components, the BMR t f, neat and eat. BMR is your basal metabolic rate. This is the calories needed to perform basic life sustaining functions like breathing, and it accounts for roughly two thirds to up to three quarters of your expenditure. Okay, that's number one. Number two is your thermic effect of food. This is the energy required for digesting absorbing disposing your nutrients. And that's one 10% Then we have neat neat is my favorite This is everything we do that is not sleeping, eating or intentional exercise. So it's walking, cleaning, fidgeting, this can vary a lot based on your lifestyle, your job or how much you move throughout the day. And it can account for anywhere from like 10 to 30% of your expenditure. And then finally we have eat exercise Activity Thermogenesis oh by the way, I don't know if I defined I don't know if I define neat but it was non exercise Activity Thermogenesis. So eat is exercise Activity Thermogenesis, and this is structured planned exercise, whether it is lifting, playing a sport running. And this accounts for something like 5% a really, really small percentage of your metabolism and here's the thing. So here's the underlying practical theory that we're going to touch on multiple times throughout the show. When you try to exercise the calories or when you try to exercise over over every day, lots of running lots of cardio, lots of eat, okay, just to quote unquote burn calories, your body tends to compensate. It reduces energy expenditure in other areas, either in your neat, like you just move and fidget less than other times of the day without realizing it, or even by down regulating your hormones to reduce your expenditure to actually conserve more energy. So that's like, that's a core of why we're going to say that too much exercise is actually hurting you. And also, who loves to do all that exercise, nobody talks, like generally, nobody does. Very, very few people do, right. And in this community, we're we're, we're thinking about our body composition, our health, and longevity and all these things. We want it to be sustainable, right, going back to the five star review about being a sustainable approach, that's what it is, sustainability is something you could do for the long term until you're in your 70s 80s 90s. Literally till the day you die, you can do these things. Okay. The other thing that's really important for metabolism is the role of muscle muscle is muscle tissue is metabolically active. So it increases your metabolism, the more you have, and just recently, I think stronger by science reviewed the data again, and showed that roughly nine to 10 calories per pound of muscle per day. So it's not a massive amount, but it's also not nothing, meaning if you add 10 pounds of muscle over the next, you know, eight to 12 months, your new lifter, and that's a reasonable amount, and you're gonna make an extra 100 calories a day, add another 10 pounds of on top of that over the next few years after that, another 100. So you can be walking around with 20 pounds more muscle burning 200 more calories a day. That's a significant difference, right? 200 calories day is 1400 calories a week, it's almost a half a pound of fat, a week of flexibility. So muscle is metabolically active. And these both these concepts, the idea that your body adapts to too much of too much high intensity cardio or movement. And that muscle is important for increasing your metabolism. By increasing your BMR like the calories you burn all you burn all day, even while you're sleeping. That's really important to this discussion. So that leads me to the first assertion I'm going to make, which is that strength training is extremely important to this whole process. And we've talked before about training versus exercise, right? Exercise is going to the gym moving a lot. It's generally not structured and maybe may have a little structure to it like a class structure. But it generally does not focus on improving some skill over time progressing over time, in particular, strengthen muscle mass, which is what we focus on. Okay. So we know that strength training leads muscle growth, and then that muscle leads to the metabolic benefits of muscle and increases your metabolism. Higher metabolic rate, but there's also a little side benefit. And I looked into the literature and feel free to challenge me but it's called oh boy, what is it epoch? What does that stand for? It's like the afterburner effect, okay. Now, it's been downplayed quite a bit over the years with as more evidence comes out. But the idea is that after some form of more intense deliberate exercise, whether it is training, lifting, cardio, whatever, you will burn more calories the rest of the day than you would have otherwise. And they do show that this can last for anywhere from like two to 10 hours, it used to be a lot more than that they thought that about two to 10 hours, and it can burn up to something like anywhere from 100 to 200 more calories from a lifting session. Then, then other types of of sessions, so lifting or high intensity, cardio, alright. It's a little side effect. I just wanted to mention it but I also wanted to not overstate it. Because if people are like yeah, that's the reason we want to lift because you're gonna get this huge afterburn effect. That's not that's just a tiny thing.
08:58
My name is Tony Romo strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning and that's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy you notice that he has made but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and help you out. Thanks.
Philip Pape 09:43
One other side benefit I thought of was strength training is its role in blood sugar control, right? I hear about this a lot. And I talk about it a lot and the guys like Brandon Cruz and others how muscles are a sink for your glucose right? And they control blood sugar in there, folks. I just recently had a a Results breakthrough session. These are the free calls that I provide with somebody who he's 50 been lifting most of his life big, strong guy, you know, wants to lose some fat. And his doctor basically said, Look, if it wasn't for all the muscle, you have your blood pressure and your all your other numbers, you know, lipids and so on would bleed or your blood sugar and so on, would probably be in an unhealthy range. But they're actually in a fairly normal range, mainly because you have all this extra muscle mass. And the reason I mentioned that is because that also contributes to metabolism and fat loss, and just makes the whole thing easier. It just makes the whole thing so much easier. All right. So that's, that's the importance of strengthen muscle. Now, what about the other side, the training and the excessive cardio, right? Going back to that endurance adaptation that I talked about. Not only does your body compensate, but it also just overall adapts to that specific mode of training. So you've probably heard the concept of specificity, or stress recovery adaptation. We talk about that from a muscle perspective. But it also works from an endurance perspective. So if you're running a lot, right, if you're a marathon runner, that's the extreme. But even if you're just running on a regular basis, your body's going to adapt to that it's going to become more calorie efficient. And so it is going to burn fewer extra calories for X every extra calorie of work put into it, and it becomes less and less efficient. Now there's something called the constrained energy model proposed by Herman Ponsor at all. And he wrote a book called burn about this phenomenon. And it tends to be misunderstood, misapplied, mis interpreted, whatever. But generally, if you go from sedentary to some level of movement, you're gonna burn quite a bit more calories just doing that. But if you go from being somewhat active to more active, the extra calories burned, tend to not tend to not match the extra work put into it. So that's where I'm going in that, when you do all this extra work and think you're gonna burn a lot more calories, your body will just keep getting more and more efficient, like stingy with those calories. It says, Hey, you're telling me that all these cows, this energy coming in needs to be constantly burned, I'm just going to make it very efficient to do that, because that's what you're telling me. I'm going to downregulate my, the thyroid and the metabolism, and I might even up your hunger signals a bit to make you hungrier, and so on. Whereas when you strength train, you don't have that effect. When you walk a lot, you don't have that effect. Okay, so couple that with the fact that a lot of movement every day, can easily lead to overtraining. And overtraining affects recovery and thus, metabolism. So the, the extra stress on your body, the impact here, your muscles, you get muscle tears, from lots of running and other types of types of cardio like that. The the lack of sleep, or you're not able to sleep as much, or maybe you just don't have as much time to sleep, because you're doing all this exercise versus strength training, where you just need that sleep and recovery and you get it. This could affect your cortisol, which is your stress hormone, it can disrupt your sleep and disrupt your mood. And then you even have a greater risk of injury, when you're doing all of this exercise. Just, you know, strength training is one of if not the lowest chance of injury of like all the sports modalities. You know, soccer is way up there near the top, anything when you're running around gets you smack heads with each other is going to be a higher chance. But even just running in higher stress forms of cardio can do that. So a lot of this exercise where you're just constantly moving all the time, has these other side impacts that you don't often think about that you don't have with lifting. Okay. So what are the benefits of working out less, number one, improved recovery, you simply have fewer sessions that you're working out. So you have more time in between more time to rest, not only between workouts, but between exercises in between sets of those exercises. If you are lifting heavy by heavy we mean things like barbells and dumbbells, maybe some cables, but up in the four to six rep range for the big compound lifts like squats like deadlifts, or maybe in the anywhere from, you know, six to 12 range for some more direct work. But it's almost a failure or within a few reps shy of failure. It's heavy, you take longer rest periods, you take longer rest between sets, and you don't go as often throughout the week, beginners three days a week, advanced for maybe five. Six is is a specialized thing, which is its own thing if we're talking about spreading out the fatigue and stuff like that, but let's just talk about three or four days a week, which is a lot this lot less than seven days. All right. We talked about another benefit of having of working out less is because you're focusing on strength training, you have more muscle that muscle burns more calories. Awesome. This also manages hunger. Okay, and As you get more rest, you get less stress, you get improved sleep, all of these contribute to your metabolic rate. They all spiral on top of each other. Because if you get less sleep, you your hormones down regulate, and you get hungrier, and your metabolism goes down. And that doesn't help, because now it's hard to stick to a diet and so on. So forth. Right? Okay, so what do we want to do with all this? I didn't want to make this too long of an episode. But the last thing I want to talk about is cardio itself, like, am I telling you never to do cardio? Of course not. Of course, now, I've come to the realization through the evidence and experience, that cardio can be a great form of movement, if done right and done effectively from a programming perspective, meaning we prioritize our lifting. And then we don't do more than half of the time lifting as cardio. So if you lift three days a week for an hour, up to an hour and a half a week of cardio, cardio can improve your cardiovascular health, hence the name, it can improve your view to match your lung capacity, brain function, mood, you know, endorphins, we all know that most people don't like lots of it, though. So it can be helpful in short, highly effective bursts, like high intensity interval training, or even a medium intensity cardio just for maybe a half hour at a time, a few days a week. Okay, cardio, yes can burn a lot of calories in a short amount of time, which can contribute to fat loss or in a fat loss phase, but so can lots of walking. And it's easier to walk all day, but you can't do cardio all day, and you get all the other recovery and impact negatives from cardio. Now, there are forms of cardio that are less impactful like biking, swimming, pushing, or pulling a prowler sled where they're primarily concentric on the concentric, half of the muscle movement. So if you think of a bike, you're pumping the legs, but then they come up without any force. Whereas when you run, you are your force forcing on the lake. I'm not speaking very clearly here, but you're basically pounding into the pavement right here pushing off and you're, you're holding your weight as it compresses downwards. So that is an eccentric load that you're placing each time, let alone the impact on your knees, joints, everything else, especially compounded when most people have terrible form when they run that. So yes, you can burn some calories. Now here's the cool thing. Walking burns almost as many calories as running per mile, especially when it's when it's brisk walking, said this before, and I'll say it over and over again, you can only run for like 2030 minutes generally, before you start to get winded, you can walk for 1234 hours cumulative throughout the day, when you add it all up to get 10 12,000 steps, and you're gonna burn almost many calories. So if you're talking just apples to apples with calories, that's one way to do it. And again, walking is extremely low impact and sustainable. So, combine strength and cardio together in this nice beautiful way. And you will reap the benefits of both. Remember that working out less will not meaningfully reduce your expenditure and may actually increase it if you shift from a constant movement, endurance style high rep for high rep form of exercise to a lots of rest and recovery. You know, intense short workout sessions when I say intense, I mean like heavy with the barbell or whatever you're using for your lifting. And you get all these other benefits. So just to recap, metabolism is made up of those four components, one of which is controlled by your muscle mass, another is controlled by walking. And then the other is controlled by exercise, which is a very, very tiny amount. The body is compensates the body adapts strength training is the most important mode of training we can do if we care about our body composition, health and longevity. There are drawbacks with endurance adaptations with overtraining on recovery, when you do too much of this other movement, as well as its side impacts on sleep, stress, mood, cortisol, and so on. And so working out less can definitely increase your metabolism and fat loss. All right. So I hope you have now
Philip Pape 19:05
a good place to start when you ask that question. But if you've listened to all this, if you're still wondering exactly how do I structure this in my personal routine, how do I change the way I move and lift so my expenditure does not take a hit and I get all the benefits that Philip talked about. And if you need some more clarity and confidence, click the link in my show notes for a free results breakthrough session with me seriously, this is a free 30 minute call with me where I give you a clear strategy and action steps to take right away that's all he do. I map it out on a whiteboard. And we say we want to go from here to here. How do we do it boom, boom, boom, here's some actions gives you more certainty to move in the right direction. Whether it's your health, your fitness, your physique, all those things. Again, just use the link in my show notes for the free call. And then we can go over where you are now where you want to be and get you that laser focused vision. I do not sell you pay He or mentioned my services at all on the call unless you ask. I've helped dozens of people who do not become clients, but they are now finally making significant rapid progress toward their goals because we had this call. So click the link in my show notes and let's make that happen. Next week for episode 85 is an interview with Mark piont. I was on his show earlier in the year. And then I had him on to talk about the role of physical health in your mental health, coping with stress, managing stress and knowing that you are never alone on this journey to fascinating discussion. So definitely follow or subscribe to the show right now in your favorite podcast app so you do not miss it. As always, stay strong. And I will talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 83: Overcoming Chronic Stress for Health and Performance with Former Navy SEAL Christopher Maher
On today’s show, we dive deep into the topic of stress and its connection to emotion, physiology, and physical pain and trauma. We explore the concept of Strauma, and how it affects your well-being. We also discuss the difference between stress management and stress resolution and explore the effectiveness of stress management tools so you can transition from a state of struggle and strife to one of ease and grace.
On today’s show, we dive deep into the topic of stress and its connection to emotion, physiology, and physical pain and trauma. We explore the concept of Strauma, and how it affects your well-being. We also discuss the difference between stress management and stress resolution and explore the effectiveness of stress management tools so you can transition from a state of struggle and strife to one of ease and grace.
My guest today is Christopher Lee Maher, an author, inventor, entrepreneur, speaker, coach, and innovator in the fields of health, wellness, and longevity, and he is going to share his perspective on these topics and more as we get into our conversation.
Christopher was a Navy SEAL with 1.8% body fat at 22. He had no idea how stress would impact his physical, mental, energy, and emotional health.
He didn't realize he was sick. Eventually, he had joint pain and impaired vision. Christopher discovered that Strauma, or accumulated stress, becomes trauma and causes serious harm. In his mission to alleviate his discomfort, Christopher developed True Body Intelligence technology, a comprehensive system of total healing and integration.
With his help, Christopher’s clients have succeeded at the highest levels in sports, entertainment, business, medicine, and international politics.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:59] The pivotal moments that shaped who Christopher is today
[13:01] Using stress as a motivator
[20:16] Voluntary hardship and transition to ease and growth
[28:01] Identifying the psychological root cause based on the physiological symptoms, and the concept of traditional Chinese medicine
[30:44] Carol is grateful to Philip for helping her be consistent with nutrition and understand the importance of taking rest days
[37:59] Body mapping for achieving Results
[45:15] How to improve your health and learn "bestersize"
[51:34] What training does Christopher recommend
[56:31] What he wanted Philip to ask him about
[58:58] Where you can learn more about Christopher
[1:00:27] Outro
Episode resources:
Christopher’s website: truebodyintelligence.com
His book: Free for Life: A Navy SEAL's Path to Inner Freedom and Outer Peace
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
🥩 Download Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here
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Transcript
Christopher Maher 00:00
Do you mean whatever's in my body is in my life. Whatever is not working in my life, I can point to and find a place where I have an excessive relative and reflective amount of tension and stress stored in that particular part of my body.
Philip Pape 00:18
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. On today's show, we dive deep into the topic of stress and its connection to emotion physiology, physical pain and trauma. We explore the concept of Strama and how it affects your well being. We also discussed the difference between stress management and stress resolution, and explore the effectiveness of stress management tools. So you can transition from a state of struggle and strive to want to ease and grace. My guest today is Christopher Lee matter, an author, inventor, entrepreneur, speaker, coach and innovator in the fields of health, wellness and longevity. And he's going to share his perspective on those topics and more as we get into our conversation. At 22. Christopher was a Navy SEAL in his prime, with a sleek one point a percent body fat and one of the fittest people on the planet. He was also completely unaware of the full impact that stress would eventually have on his physical, mental, energetic and emotional well being. His internal health was compromised and he didn't even know it. He suffered from pain in every joint his hearing was shot and his vision was poor. Christopher realized that piled up stress, which he calls Strama, transforms into trauma over time and causes severe damage. Christopher devoted his energy, time and resources seeking answers to alleviate his discomfort, and eventually developed true body intelligence technology, a comprehensive system of total physical, mental, emotional, spiritual healing and integration. With his help Christopher's clients have succeeded at the highest levels in sports, entertainment, business, medicine and international politics. Christopher, I'm delighted to have you on and your unique perspective on the show today.
Christopher Maher 02:24
Thank you, dude, that was the best intro I've had so far. And I've done a bunch of podcast.
Philip Pape 02:30
That's what I strive for, man. It's all about, you know, showing you
Christopher Maher 02:33
your homework cool or detailed. Cool. Yeah, no,
Philip Pape 02:37
I appreciate it, man. No, it's well deserved. People need to know who you are, and want to set up for the conversation. So we know we're getting into. And yeah, so your background is very eclectic. I would say you're a Navy SEAL. You have experience with Chinese medicine, you have an approach to stress management that that sounds very unique. So of all of your life experiences, what were the pivotal moments that you think shaped who you are today.
Christopher Maher 03:06
I mean, there's a lot, right, but there's one that sticks out the most for me. And I was driving from my girlfriend's place to teach a class on a Wednesday night in July. And this is some years ago. So this would be what 1999 or 2000. So either 1999 or 2000. And I'm driving this green light, moving through the green light slowly and out of nowhere, a car comes through the intersection and slams into my car. Since a car round car hits a light pole so hard, then it spins back the other way. I go to hospital. And the next day when I wake up, pain has now shifted from outside of my hip to the middle of my hip. And now I can no longer override things with my will. Right? You can imagine you go through SEAL training your navy seal, it would be assumed that the person has an intense, indomitable will. And I definitely had one of those. And then I had an ice pick in my hip throbbing every two to three seconds. And when you have that kind of unrelenting discomfort, you're eventually going to break your strategies and my strategy at the time was emotional self reliance. So if I was in pain, you would know about it. Because guess what I was indoctrinated to never bitch moan, complain or whine. I'll go to boarding school for 10 years. That was involuntary too. So everybody knows I was I didn't want to go to boarding school, my grandmother sent me. And then I volunteered for the military and to go to SEAL training being a SEAL team. So now that was voluntary discipline. So when you're signing up for something there is, and you know that you're the one who signed up. There is some ownership in that, right? So I took responsibility for my pain psychologically, mentally, like, well, you put yourself through all that. Don't complain anyone? You did it, you should have investigated, like, why didn't you get to Coronado, meet a bunch of guys that used to be in the SEAL teams and ask them, how's your body working? Because if you did, you thought to yourself? Yeah, do I want to feel like hell at 40 at 4445 35 years old? No, I don't know, maybe I would have made a different decision. So I didn't do my homework. And I ended up with a body full of intense amounts of stress. And look, their job is to stress you out, right? Because they need to know something. Does this guy make good decisions when he's cold, wet and miserable? Think about that. Does this guy make good solid decisions? When he's cold, wet and miserable. Anybody can make a good decision on a bright, sunny, warm day. Okay. So I, I understand the process. But what I didn't account for is all the childhood stress that I dealt with in the childhood trauma. I had a mother who committed suicide when she was 29. What does that let us know? She was mentally and emotionally unwell. Okay. Our father died of cirrhosis of the liver. What does that let us know? He was mentally and emotionally unwell. Okay, now I'm the next generation. And by the time I'm my mother's age, 29 years old, I have a body riddled full of pain. What should that have told me. He's mentally and emotionally unwell. I didn't put that together. Right, because I associated all the discomfort that I was in with my desire and passion to be fit, right and to prove myself. And my goal at the time was to qualify for the Olympic trials, it was never going to happen. I had the will. I didn't have the body. I had the will. I didn't have the mind. I had the will. I didn't have the emotion. Okay, because I had fragmented and overstressed myself so much that I was stuck in the state of trauma. And if I say Strama, what I mean is stress plus time, right? So you take unresolved stress, plus time equals strong was that mean? If I'm driving down the road, and I fall asleep at the wheel, and I run into a telephone pole, that's blunt force trauma, right? happens in the moment. But Strama is what all humans are dealing with that are in their 30s or 40s, in their 50s. And what it is, is it's stress that is unresolved in a 24 hour period that gets piled into the next day. So Monday's stress ends up in Friday. And then Friday ends up in next Friday. And then January ends up in March and then March ends up in August. And you know, do that for two or three decades consistently. And eventually, you're going to bend down to tie your shoe. Okay. And you're gonna go to get up and your back's gonna go, pop. And you're gonna go Oh, my God. Suzie honey, called the doc. I can't move. What are you talking about? Bill? My back. I can't move. Well, you look normal. Can you just call 911? I need to get someone here. Honey, I can't move. Now is are you supposed to get injured when you bend over to tie your shoe? No, of course you're not. But if you have an intense amount of unresolved stress, Strama tension and distortion, it's eventually going to happen. So anyone who's listening, trust me. If you do not deal with or let's say not a different way, if you continue to avoid removing, and diminishing your lifetime accumulated stress load and the Strama that's in your system, the daily accumulated stress that got piled on day after day. Eventually, one day you're gonna wake up and you're gonna have some kind of pain, and whether that's an unrelenting toothache, you're starting to lose your vision. You're turning into an insomniac. It's impossible for you to fall asleep. It's difficult for you to stay asleep. You're getting up and urinating five or six times a night. You've got these intense menstrual cramps. You're having involuntary abortions, okay. You know, the miscarriages are now creating a lot of emotional stress for you. You know, you're super talented. You're super smart, but they the amount of money that you're being paid for the work that you're doing is unfair and inequitable. Like there's 100 ways in which trauma affects you, right? You got unrelenting headaches. And guess what? They start out very small, right? Like, oh, I got this little weird pain in my head. It lasted for an hour, decade later. It lasts a whole day, two decades later. Now you haven't twice a week, three decades later. Now. They're full blown migraines that last three or four days, right?
Philip Pape 10:58
So this is, yeah, yeah, no, go ahead.
Christopher Maher 11:01
So so when you have this type of stress, and everyone has that, like, let's be clear, anyone who's listening right now is full of a massive amount of stress, tension, distortion and Strama. It's, I've done 100,000 hours of research, right? So they tell you, in order to master any one thing, it takes 10,000 hours, right? I've done 100,000, it's 10 of those. So I wouldn't be a master of something, I would be a grandmaster, right. So when it comes to this field of study, and in information that I've given you, it has been tested, and tried again, and again, and again, and again. And whether someone's seven, or they're 77, you know, what, they have the same amount of stress and tension in their body, in their, in the health of their tissues.
Philip Pape 11:52
Yeah, this this concept is, I wouldn't have believed it when I was younger. And having gone through some of the experiences I have, and having dealt with back pain and and then when that happened, talk to other people, some of who were able to deal with those issues. by resolving some emotional stress, and dealing with that side of it without any other interventions. It's it totally makes sense for me. And the way you describe that whole process of accumulated stress. And I've heard the, you know, accumulative load makes us realize that the accumulation is part of the part of the relevance here, right? We're talking years and years. It's not just something you can fix overnight, necessarily. It's also not a fit just a physical thing. Like I think a lot of people think, Well, I'm unhealthy. So I get all my lifestyle practices in order from a physical perspective, which I help clients do. But that's not all of it, right? And even the stress piece of it, I don't think a lot of people give it as much attention or depth as you're, I think, already starting to dive into here, which then should lead to that understanding should lead to what can we potentially do about it? People can gain from this. So he talked about the Navy SEALs, just real quick on that. I have heard how like, you know, Navy SEALs use stress as a motivator, they turn stress from a negative into a positive. Is that some Is that some sort of rationalization going on there? Or is that true thing for a certain subset of, of those guys that maybe don't already have the previous stress? I mean, help me understand that.
Christopher Maher 13:22
Yeah, I mean, eventually there will be, eventually the law of diminishing returns, will turn on. Okay. The body can only potentially hold so much tension and stress and distortion. And we use stress in the beginning to strengthen the mind, right? And then the mind gets really strong. But when the mind becomes so strong, that it ignores the physical needs, the emotional needs, and the psychological needs of the body, and of the person's life, eventually, you will turn a win into a loss. Okay, so that mindset is great. Take that mindset, go through things that are difficult. So you can build your will to achieve the things that you want to experience. Once you've experienced the things that you want to experience, and you need to keep having those experiences to validate who you are. Now you're in trouble. Because at some point, you're going to go over the edge of what your body can recover from. And if you do more than what your body can, can recover from, you're now creating damage. And why would anyone show up and knowingly put damage in their body? The only reason why they would continue to do that is if their identity was attached to their achievement. Hmm Okay. And that's what I mean by you now you take a win, and you turn it into a loss, right. And so the thing about it is humans are in this very unique place, where now we get to test everything right? We can go into a sauna, and being there for 30 minutes, come out for 10 minutes and go cold water, go back in for 30 minutes, right. And then we can take, we can withdraw some blood, send it to the lab and see that we've increased our human growth hormone by 36%. Right? So we can test and and we can evaluate if you're someone who's into fitness and wellness, and you want to push the edge, because you want to learn about what's the healthy functional state of being wonderful. But when you go too far, and now you have excruciating joint pain, okay, to attempt to prove your philosophy. And what it's doing is it's reducing your body's ability to heal, because you're lowering your restore repair recovery, right? So the purpose of elevating your ego. Now, instead of having a win loss, you now have a loss loss. Sure. And so the question is, for me, for the listener is, do you want to do things that are rational or irrational, in the beginning, the things that you're going to be doing, you're irrational because your body's never done them before. But then, any good thing that you do, like vitamin C is great. If you, if you have too much, it becomes a problem. Juicing is wonderful. If you use too much, it's a problem. Steak is great. If you eat too much, it's a problem. Sleep is wonderful. But if you sleep too much, it's a problem. Sex is awesome. But if you have too much, it becomes a problem. And so the thing is knowing your threshold, right? And we're at this place in time where we get to decide how we want to grow. I want to be more emotionally present Great, there's a course somewhere on the internet, okay? I want to have a more loving relationship with my wife and be a better communicator, there's a course somewhere on the internet, right? There's people out there like you, there's people out there like me, that are coming together having powerful conversations so that people like the listeners can tune in, and they can learn something valuable that they can implement, right, they can extract it and put it into their life, test it out, take it to its edge, see what the result is. If the result is dysfunction, then your choice is dysfunctional. Right? Never ignore the data, always collect the data. So I think that's the guilty mindset is wonderful, to a point. Okay, I'm not going to put 50 pounds of sand in my rucksack in my backpack and run down the beach. Because I know for 50 miles because I know at some point, I'm wearing away at the joints in my low back. Right. And so Hey, maybe I throw 50 pounds on and I run for a mile. And I do that once a week, once every two weeks, you got to know your body. And you've got to pay attention to the signals. And pain is always the last indicator that something is wrong. So when you have a little pain in your shoulder, it's not a little pain. It's a big problem. And this is the thing that most people don't understand that I understand too well, because I was someone that continued to keep pushing the edge. And so now I know to listen to the signposts on the side of the road that says slow down. Okay, curb, go 15 miles an hour. When I was 19, I might go 60. Right. Sure. For sure. Okay. All right, now that I'm moving towards 60, maybe go 30? Because that's who I am. Right? I'm always going to want to push the edge a little bit.
Philip Pape 19:28
Right. Yeah. And pushing that edge a little, as he alluded to, it's it's a form of I think the term is for Mises, right. It's like that acute stress that is beneficial as humans, you mentioned the sauna and other things like that, where there's a short term stressor that leads to some some benefits down the road unless you do it too much or too hard. And I was thinking of the stress recovery adaptation model of lifting as well as how you can accumulate too much fatigue and continue to push yourself and never give yourself that chance to recover. And you also mentioned the shoulder pain which I've had And I totally can empathize with the idea of, hey, it's just a little pain, push through it. And now all of a sudden pop and you make it worse. You should have just, and the pain, like you said, isn't even the first signal. There's there's other things before that, that that you that your body's telling you. Okay, so this, this is great stuff. What about? So you mentioned voluntary hardship. And the transition from a state of struggle to one of ease and grace, I want to understand that that phrase, and that thought, right. People want to be stoic. We talked about this, this whole concept you said with the Navy SEALs, kind of taking it to the extreme of just sucking it up, and it's gonna make you a better person. But don't. You're saying don't keep doing that forever. So when life is constantly pushing back on you, how can someone do that? How can they transition to a life of ease as you call it?
Christopher Maher 20:55
Okay, I mean, one, they need to understand the model, right? Like, how do we get stress first? I mean, we have to have a rudimentary base understanding of how we get to pain. And so anytime someone has a symptom, right? Most people in the fitness and wellness so they're running along. And no, this is better. They're playing tennis, right? With their girlfriends. Then they're going to go out in the afternoon and lay in the sun. And they're whacking balls back and forth. They're doing backhand forehand. And then the girl wakes up the next day and her backs like incredibly stiff. She can be stoic, okay, and she can pretend like, I'm okay, I just need a few days, and the swelling will go down. The truth is yeah, the the swelling will go down, and the discomfort will disappear. But what she's not thinking about is this, you should be able to go and play tennis. And if you wake up the next day and your back hurts, it means that there's something wrong with your back. You should be able to knock balls for an hour or two. Across the net, have a nice time wailing away at these balls. If you wake up and you've got excessive swelling and a stiff low back the next day, you need to go huh? Would a healthy structural person be having this discomfort? And the moment you ask that question and you in and you include healthy, what you're going to get is absolutely not. The healthy person should be able to knock balls around for an hour or two and wake up the next day and be totally fine. The challenge is this. People have symptoms and they don't know where the symptoms come from. So you alluded to this idea earlier, that people have physical pain, stiffness in their low back that are connected to emotional, unresolved challenges from their childhoods when their minds were in a pre cognitive state of function. What does it mean when we say a mind is in a pre cognitive state of function? What we mean listeners is, this person doesn't understand context. Children don't understand context. Okay? They understand. Oh, this lollipop. It's sweet. I liked the taste. They don't know who made the lollipop. They don't know how it's made. They don't even understand that mom had to go to the grocery store to get it. They don't know that dad had to earn money to buy it. They have no clue all they know is this thing in my mouth tastes sweet. I like it. My mom didn't give it to me. Now I'm upset. Okay, now here's the thing. When a woman or man is playing tennis, knocking balls back and forth across the net for our to wakes up the next day and they have pain in their low back. It always always I can say that 100 times, always is related back to something that's unresolved emotionally. And if you know what emotions go through the middle of the legs, right? All circumduction in the body is controlled by the function of your liver and the function of your gallbladder. And if you know that the function of the liver, its high function is freedom, helpfulness and the seed of emotion. And you know, the gallbladder is the Center for decisiveness and devotion. Well, if I have pain in my back after playing tennis, which requires an intense amount of circumduction whom What's the opposite Feeling free? Oh, repression. What's the opposite to being decisive, indecisive. And now I look back over my life and go, Wow, that's so funny. When all my friends sit down for lunch, I'm always the last one to be able to figure out what to order. Because I'm indecisive, right? Whenever I go out with my friends, and they start having these conversations about things that I'm uncomfortable with, I never say anything, because I want people to like me. So then I closed off my throat, and I repress my real feelings. Okay, so the way that someone's functioning emotionally and psychologically, is what leads to the physiological and structural pain and discomfort. And if you know what each part of the body is related to emotionally, energetically, psychologically, and instinctually, you now have a game plan. So now that girl, she knows someone who knows me, and I go, Hey, look, you need to go have a conversation with Christopher, let, you need to go have a conversation versa. Okay. She gets my number, she sends me texts. Hey, listen, I was playing tennis. It happens every time that I do this. How do I resolve this? I just asked a simple a couple simple question. How indecisive Are you? When you sit down to order food? Always. They always give them the same answer. What I mean by that is whatever is in your body is in your life. If something is distorted in your body, there's something distorted in terms of your behavior in your life. Well, what's the only thing that can distort behavior, excess excessive unresolved stress and tension. So if I removed the tension, then I removed the stress. Instead of being indecisive, decisive. Instead of feeling repressed and suppressed, I feel free to communicate my ideas and like feelings or emotions to those around me. And now that I'm decisive, and free, want to go back when I go to play tennis, the next time I wake up in the morning, guess what? No back pain. Hmm, that's curious. Oh, so you mean whatever is in my body is in my life. Whatever is not working in my life, I can point to and find a place where I have an excessive relative and reflective amount of tension and stress stored in that particular part of my body.
Philip Pape 27:43
Okay, so what I spotted this morning, I'm sure the listeners thinking okay, how do you how do you do that? Well, I mean, so my skepticism here is always get up with everything. It's just how I it's great. And that's cool. And actually, I wanted to explore like the the Chinese medicine and Eastern versus, versus not versus but complementarity with Western principles. But the let's take that one example, the woman playing tennis with the low back pain is, I mean, a lot of people get low back pain. Are we saying they're all indecisive? Or is it the way that they describe that pain to you gives you that indication of what to ask? Yeah, what
Christopher Maher 28:17
we're saying is because I know her activity, and she was playing tennis, and that means that she was rotating, she was twisting. I know that the pain is coming from the inability to circum ducked correctly. Okay,
Philip Pape 28:33
right. Okay. Yeah. And then what? And then what would happen next, when you said okay, well, you're, you're not indecisive people who are indecisive and I know some in my own life. Like, how do I, how do I become decisive?
Christopher Maher 28:44
How do you become decisive, you become decisive by removing the stress out of that channel. So you brought up, which was perfect timing, the concept of traditional Chinese medicine. So the Chinese have mapped out the body in terms of lines of energy that move through the body. They're called meridians or channels, right? So you have 12 primary channels, you have four extraordinary channels, every one of these channels moves through the belly of a muscle, literally, right through the belly of the muscle. The Chinese, they studied energy, they didn't study anatomy, right? That's not how they came up with traditional Chinese medicine. They studied the energy in the body. Well, here's what happened. Guess what else is right above below that Meridian nerve. So the body's been mapped out, right? It has very specific ways in which it functions. And when you know those ways that it function, it allows you to then see the roadmap and then reverse engineer the problem. Once you can reverse engineer the problem, and then I take it a step further, I teach the person how to do it. So they're not relying on me. Why? Because I'm allergic to codependent relationships. Sure. Yeah. I can you understand yourself empowered man, you know that if you have someone who you're imparting wisdom and knowledge into their life, and you're showing them how to do it on their own, eventually, one day you want them to disappear. Right?
Philip Pape 30:31
Right. So then the fireman is a coach. I put it sometimes Yeah, yeah,
Christopher Maher 30:35
like, come on. Look, I hope you're only here for three months. So then you can go away and the next person can come in. Right.
30:44
Before my coaching session with Philip, I was really struggling with staying consistent with my nutrition, Phillip really showed me the importance of being consistent day to day, he also helped me see that it's not a bad thing to take a rest day, he really helps me get in that more positive headspace of a rest day being something really good for me. I've been doing this for a month now. And I'm finally starting to see some progress and my numbers. And I'm really excited about that. And I just appreciate so much the help that Philip has given me. He's always willing to answer questions to offer resources that are totally free, and very, very helpful. So I just want to say how much I appreciate that. Thanks, Phil.
Christopher Maher 31:30
For all the listeners on the call. Now, in order to empower yourself, you need to understand some very, very simple basic things in the body. You need to understand fascia, fascia works, you need to understand how your muscles work the names of those muscles, you need to understand the organs that are connected to those muscles. Because see, when the nerves leave your spinal cord, they go into an organ and then they leave in Oregon and where do they go? They go into a muscle. So whatever's going into my muscles is going on in my organs. Whatever's going on in my organs is going on in my nervous system. Whatever's going on my nervous system is going on in my brain. Whatever's going on in my brain is going on in the soles of my feet. That's the map. Once you understand that map, you're like, oh, wow, I'm having some digestive issues. Oh, you are this is interesting. Okay, now I know which Meridian goes through which muscle? This? Oh, I'm stealing with a lot of bloating. Okay, I got you covered. Let's push around a little bit. Oh, sure that there's pain right where it should be? Do we remove the discomfort come in the next week as your bloating Oh, not bloated, at all? Easy. Without understanding and knowing the map see before the only map I had was fitness going hard all day, every day, all the time, I accumulated so much stress in my structural body, it started to affect the way that my systemic organs were working. Every one of your organs is connected to a sense organs. So every one of your organs like your liver, your lungs, your large intestine, your spleen, your stomach, your pancreas, your kidneys, your bladder, your brain, your sexual organs, every one of them is connected to a sense organ. So when my systemic organs are being stressed out by my structural tissues, because they're so tight and toxic, now my sense organs suffer. That's what I start losing, I start losing my vision, I start losing my hearing, I start losing my smell, I start losing my taste. Okay, so when they say everything is connected, they literally mean everything is connected. So whatever is going on, on the soles of my feet is an indication of how well my organs communicate together. If my organs have really good communication, my body's relaxed. But if my body is stressed in a reflective and relative manner, so are my organs in my organs, and my structural tissues are stressed. Now my sense organs are stressed. And once they're stressed, and you start losing vision, you start losing hearing, you start getting very stressed, because you're not picking up the information and data that you need in order to be successful. When you get in your car, and you want to go to the grocery store, you want to get from A to B. Okay, you don't want to get halfway down the hill, and then suddenly, half your vision drops out of one eye. Because you're severely overstressed. So, unresolved stress manifests this tension tension creates structural distortion and structural distortion. transforms into physical, mental, emotional and spiritual pain. What is spiritual pain? It means I have an ineffectual amount of energy to do the things that I desire, and I'm unable to be ethical, moral principles and be Integris. That means I'm spiritually sick. Okay? Then there's emotional pain was emotional pain, anxiety, okay, I'm depressed, I'm feeling hopeless. I'm feeling repression and suppression. I'm finding it difficult to connect with others. Now, I know I'm emotionally in pain. Well, when you're in physical pain, that's the easiest one. The easiest of them all. If you go in and you solve your physical pains, you solve your emotional, spiritual and psychological pain simultaneously. So yeah, you can be fit and healthy, or you can be fit, and unhealthy. And most people are fit but they're unhealthy. So
Philip Pape 36:09
it's funny because the human body is is very complicated, very complex. And I think we have, we have a hubris, and I see it, the older I get in the medical community, I have less love for doctors than I used to, you know, certain things, especially when I see things like women's health and other areas that seem highly misunderstood or neglected or even worse. And you just put for me, I guess, in the first time that I've either been willing to listen or, you know, hear it, what to me is actually a very logical set of relationships here in the body. Because we still don't understand the brain as much as we could or that our nervous system. And when you when you first talked about meridians, I was thinking, okay, that that's the analogy for our nervous system and how it all connects. And you you kind of said as much connected to the organs and in the sense organs and everything else. And then even talking about spiritual pain again, I'm like, Okay, here we go, you know, spiritual, what do we mean by that? And you're kind of grounded in in those things that, that people can relate to, of having that emotional and energetic deficiency, right, and not enough to give not enough to give to others. They haven't even taken care of themselves. And then finally said, Look, if we can solve the physical pain, I think what you mean is the root of the pain, right? Not just the symptom itself, that it's this whole chain of events between that emotional, spiritual, so hopefully, somewhat paraphrase what you just said, Yeah. In the layman's term that I understand it right now. And I'm open minded to this stuff. So I really want to understand, especially if someone can say, this information now empowers me to try something that maybe never tried before. That's still grounded in understanding my own body and listening to it. So this is very powerful stuff, Christopher so far. Yeah.
Christopher Maher 37:56
Here's the thing for me. Thank you for that. I can't live in fantasy. But I'm in my mid 50s, heading towards 60. I can't live in fantasy man. Yeah, like other people, you can live fantasy, all you want, I have to be in reality. What does that mean? That means people show up at my door on Monday, and they knock on my door. And I opened the door. They come in, and they sit down and the seat that I give my sit across from them and say, Hey, why are you here? And they go, Well, that, then I have to go? Why are you really here? What's your intention? And when they say that intention, I have to produce that result. So I don't have the ability to live in woowoo. It's just me, I have to live in science. And what I mean is, I have to produce a verifiable, repeatable, predictable outcome for them. And if I don't produce that, come Friday, they're going to be unhappy. And they're going to feel like I wasted their time. I wasted their energy, and I wasted their resources. So I can't fuck around in fantasy. So I had to figure this shit out quickly. And it had to be applicable to every single human on the planet. And so I dove in for 100,000 hours to produce something that does what it says it says what it does, because I can't afford to live in fantasy. Why? Because people are relying on me to give them good quality information, but also to produce a result that's beyond what they could have ever imagined. So every week, I gotta pull a rabbit out of my ass. Okay, yeah, everybody Come under that pressure. And so, you know, I'm in Montana right now working with a lovely woman who put a knife through her hand. And she is suffering from some lack of movement and energy. And she wants things to work correctly. So I have to use everything that I know. And I've got to be willing to trust my instinct, okay? Be in alignment with her intent. And not Yes, I can help you and then get the job done. The benefit of being in the SEAL teams is this for me, when I walked across the stage, and they gave me my diploma, I knew I was my own man, I'd been through a rite of passage. What I learned to understand more about that experiences, it gave me the confidence to know I can get the job done. So no matter what you bring to my table, I'm gonna figure it out. Right? The body is simple. It's very, very, very, very, very simple. And if you do these very specific things, you are guaranteed to get this specific result why? Because this is how the body functions. And if you understand the math, you can reverse and you can reverse engineer, any state of dis ease. If you understand the map, and I went in to study the map, that's why I went to medical school. Okay, I went in there to study the map, I need to know the map. Once I understood the map, and I started to create and produce systems that were reflective of the information in the map, I started to produce verifiable, repeatable results that were predictable. And so I am impassioned, because people want to feel freedom, they want to feel happy, they want to feel joyful, they want to have their energy back. Okay, because no one understood the map before, when I was a kid, nobody understood the map is somebody understood the map, my mom would still be alive. If somebody understood the map, my grandfather might still be alive. Okay. But they didn't understand the map in the 60s. Right. And when I went into going into the SEAL teams and training for the Olympic trials and wanting to make my goal, I didn't know anything about the body. I just got up and I used it like a skateboard. Hey, take me over here. Hey, take me over there, I didn't realize that we were endowed with the Starship Enterprise. I thought we got to skateboard. So once I investigated into all of these different systems, and I started to see these correlations, and then I started to implement strategies to neutralize the expressions of these different levels of dysfunction. It became really, really easy. And so I think what I want the listener to understand, it's very easy once you understand the math, right now, most people have a map on how to get fit, how to get some more testosterone in their body, how to get a better night's sleep, what better what are the better foods to eat? How can they employ fasting to maintain a high state of alert, but also to reduce their body fat, you know, they can learn all that stuff, right? And that stuff is great. But none of that will get you to understand the true map that you have. This body is so much more complex. Okay. And it can achieve so much more than what we've been told. Then what we know I'm letting the listener know, I figured out the math. I got it. Alright, so how
Philip Pape 44:13
I think we're talking about your true body intelligence technology and maybe yeah, in general, while the principles behind that the festival is behind the idea that someone can have agency is definitely appealing to everyone listening right because we've gotten to a state especially with the medical industry where it's, let's let's just fix whatever happened or try our best to fix it with pharmacology with some sort of, you know, band aid after the fact it's not. Not only is it not preventative which I know that we're trying to change that just minimally in the industry. It's not the full empowered control and knowledge of your body to change it and I think people are definitely open to the idea of I've had all these issues have gone all these doctors I've gone to these special was whatever still not working? There's gotta be something else there. Right? If we don't if we don't know it in that scope of knowledge, the knowledge has to be somewhere. And maybe we don't know it at all. I know you're saying we know some of this, but regardless, people would like to the power over their, their body and their results. So what's a specific example? you've alluded to kind of the front end of this process, but how would somebody then do something here? What action will they take to improve their health and their outcomes using this approach?
Christopher Maher 45:28
Well, I mean, the first thing you'd have to learn as best are sighs Okay, that would ostracize. That's the best or sighs me Easterseals s. T. S. Exercise, right? Why we call it Bester? sighs because it's the best form of exercise. Why? Because it includes concentric isometric and eccentric contractions at maximal force. Okay, sounds okay.
Philip Pape 45:52
Sounds like back squats.
Christopher Maher 45:53
Okay. And, you know, in tons of different dynamic positions, okay. Why? Why? Why? Why would we want to use pesticides? Why? Because when you get into each one of these positions, each one of them affects the different organs. It affects the different sense organ, it affects a different muscle. Okay, it affects a different quality of energy, it gives you access to higher forms of intelligence. Why? Because the concentric contraction does what it strengthens, we need strength. Okay, if you have to go to the bar, you need enough strength to pick up your beer. Okay? Right. If you're going to drive to the grocery store, you have to have enough strength to hold your keys. Sounds ridiculous, I know. But let's say you want to do something profound, right? Like you want to use your body to complete a marathon or a 10k never done anything like that it needs strength in order to do it. But in order to have maximize strength, you need to be able to recruit tissue. So now in order to recruit new tissue, new tissue tissue that's been turned off, you have to use isometric contractions, because isometric contractions force you, in order to stay in that position another second longer, you need to recruit more tissue in order to be able to do it. And then that new tissue that you recruit, it needs to be what it needs to be lengthened. So I got to strengthen, recruit a new fiber. Now lengthen that new fiber, now strengthen that new fiber. Now recruit another fiber, right, you can see the cycle. As you keep doing that, guess what happens you're going to turn on the entire belly of the muscle, all the way out to the edge of where it connects into attended. Okay, now I've got the whole thing fired up. Now that all that all that intensity in that intent, all that energy in there, you know where it goes, it goes into the feeds my Oregon, which Oregon does it feed, it feeds the Oregon connected to the channel that goes right directly through the belly of that muscle, muscle belly, Chinese medicine, they call them tendo muscular channels. Okay. Now, wool, I've lit that up. And now the Oregon's being fed. And when I wake up the next day, I'm looking around for something to eat. I've got five choices in front of me, I picked the one eggs, I picked the one that my body needs the most. You want to know why? Because now my Oregon is communicating to my brain and it's saying, Hey, we got five choices here, we usually choose number three, actually, let's, let's choose number one. Why? Because I have more intelligence inside of my body. So what they're discovering in science right now, which I've known for at least three decades, is that we're surrounded by magnetic energy constantly. Here's the interesting thing about Bester sites. When you're in a position and you're performing concentric, then holding an isometric and then maximal force for the eccentric when you open that channel. Now that universal magnetic energy gets sucked into your body. And now it starts filling up your organs with more energy, when they have more energy. So do your sense organs. Now I can see better I can hear better, I can smell better. Now because I have more information, I can make a better decision. Okay, now I make a better decision. I have a better life. So whatever's in my body is in my life. Whatever's missing in my body is also in my life. So when I'm low function, okay, I'm not attracted to high function. When I'm high function, I'm allergic to low function. So what do you want to do you want to use best or sighs so that you can turn on all those high functions inside of you. And you can make amazing choices because your whole life is based on your decisions. Hmm, should I invest in real estate? Or should I invest in crypto to invest in real estate investing in crypto? Where should I take this money invested in my business, invested in my business invested in crypto invested in real estate? I know what I'm going to do, I'm going to work on the muscles associated with decision making. I'm going to get into my gallbladder channel. I'm going to open that up. And now I'm gonna pose that question again. And immediately, you're gonna go, Oh, I'm gonna invest in my business.
Philip Pape 50:47
It's interesting. I'm letting you talk here. Because you know, some of this stuff is is blowing my mind. But I there are definitely parallels of some of this, how I and others might describe them differently. Like the example of choosing the food for you is so true, because I see the mindlessness of of many people when it comes to food on a regular basis. And, yeah, oftentimes, there's additional movement and training and just physical interaction with the world that you've never had before. All of a sudden turn something on, where now you can hear your body, you can hear what it's telling you to, you know, to eat, how much do you what types of things? You know, no, I don't want to eat that, quote, unquote, junk food or candy or whatever it is they used to eat, because just my body's not telling me I want it. I can see that. So but Bester sighs that's an interesting term. Would that would you categorize? I mean, are you basically talking about strength training and all its forms? Or is there a specific one that you recommend the most?
Christopher Maher 51:44
No, that it's, it's getting into a position. So here's the great thing about the SEAL teams SEAL team, they teach you how to master your body through calisthenics. Okay, so they had the right idea, right. But they have limited position. And they left out the other two contractions. Right? So they learned the isometric contraction, and they left out the eccentric contraction, wisdom, most important. Why? Because it's 30 to 50% stronger. For every 100 pounds, you can lift, you can lower 30 to 50%. More weight, you
Philip Pape 52:22
can always get down on my squat mat can always come up. Yep, yes.
Christopher Maher 52:25
Right. Yeah. So so if you if you put that to the test, and you thought about every single muscle group in the body, then you did the same thing. Isometric concentric eccentric contraction, so you sent your contractions at maximal force, right? Now you're going to open your body, and when you open your cavity, your ribcage and your shoulders, structurally, everything starts dropping into the right place. Why? Because now your bones are rotated in the correct position. When my bones are rotated in the correct positions, my heart has to spend less energy, pushing blood around my body. Now, instead of having to go buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, but it can go boom, boom, boom. Or other people, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Why? Because they have this excessive amount of structural tension, stress and distortion. I'm not talking about yoga. Okay, if you're into yoga, I'm not going to dog yoga. This is this is not what we're talking about. Okay. I'm not talking about length ability. I'm talking about flexibility. When they say flexibility. What's the first part of that word? Flex. Okay, what does flex mean? That means for muscle to shorten it, does it mean for it to lengthen? Hmm, that's curious. I thought flexibility meant length ability. No, no, no, no, no, I'll talk about flexibility, right? Getting the muscle to contract at maximal force. Because when I do that, guess what? It becomes 20 to 30% longer. Yep, counterintuitive, right? So Bester sighs really means bio energetic, self transformational sequences. Okay. And I've, I've spent the last 22 years I learned a few from someone and then I took it and I created hundreds of those. And once you implement those, now, the whole system functions in a way that you can't even imagine because your hearing gets better. Like me if I close my eyes right now. I can hear my heart beating football. Football. 25 years ago, I couldn't hear my heart beating unless I just got done sprinting right 800 meters as fast as I could. Okay, so I can hear my heart beating. My hearing. Excellent. My sense of people my ability to read their emotional state what they need my ability to meet them in their style of communication, my ability to be out frantically self expressed and regardless of the environment that I'm in, all these levels of intelligence keep rising inside of you, they get higher, the more you open your body, there's so much inherent intelligence inside the human race that's gone undiscovered. Okay, because we haven't been willing to acknowledge how important the body is, and we've isolated the mind as our major form of intelligence. The brain is only one organ, there's 15 other ones? Well, each one of those organs has as much intelligence as the brain. But it's a different form of intelligence. Here's the wonderful thing. We have a God that created a bodies. Okay? If a human created the body, we'd be stuck with just one form of intelligence, right? But you have a God that created the body, do you think that someone would send you to earth a God, a God would send you to Earth without being equipped with what you need already inside of you.
Philip Pape 56:14
It's a beautiful concept, right? That there's this, this unleashed or not unleashed potential that we need to unleash. So I think the listeners are gonna have to probably listen to this one a couple times to absorb everything we've talked about here. I know, we're short on time, we could keep going on forever, probably. But I'd like to ask guests, Christopher, what, if there's anything that I you wish I would have asked you that we didn't cover? And if so, what would be your answer?
Christopher Maher 56:44
What's the most important thing to understand? When you're talking about human development?
Philip Pape 56:52
Okay. Please answer the question. I'd like to know.
Christopher Maher 56:56
Yeah, yeah, the most important thing to understand is intent. And that intent is the driver. For anything that happens, like whenever you're looking around the world, and you see a result, that result was created by someone's intent, whether it's harmful, or it's helpful. Okay, so knowing that, well, if someone else can create an intent, that would create harm, that means I can create an intent that would create health, ease and grace. So I think the most important thing for anyone who's in health and wellness is take five minutes, pull the chair up to a mirror, look inside of your own eyes, and ask yourself, Why am I here? What do you need? And how can I help you? And connect to your soul to get your answers rather than your negatively conditioned personality? Connect to the inside of you, and ask those deeper questions. And then once you have those answers, start setting clear intents around what it is you want to experience in relationship to the answers that came back from your soul. And if you're willing to spend five minutes, and I spent two hours 27 years ago, I spent two hours in front of a mirror. And I got the help that I really needed. Okay, because I was willing to ask myself those questions. And now I have a life while I'm in service continuously. And every moment is magical.
Philip Pape 58:44
Look at yourself in the mirror and ask Why am I here? What do you what do you need? And how can I help you? Yeah. And then use intent to
Christopher Maher 58:53
bring it to drive those answers. Right. Exactly. Right. Love that. Yeah, well, let's
Philip Pape 58:57
let's leave it at that. I do want to ask you, Christopher, where people can learn about you and learn about your
Christopher Maher 59:03
work. You can go to true body intelligence.com We're redoing the website case you have some comments, withhold those and read the book I wrote. I mean, it's simple. I'm actually I'll read the book, listen to the book that I wrote. It's called Free for life, the US Navy SEALs unique path to inner freedom and outer peace. And then if you want to get in contact with me, you always have to read the book first. Then you email my assistant at support at true body intelligence.com. And then she will set you up for a phone call. And if you decide like you'd like to learn from me as a student, or you'd like me to work with you privately, then I'm open to that conversation.
Philip Pape 59:53
Excellent. And you suggested for your book free for life to get the audio book. Is it by you? Yes, it's
Christopher Maher 59:59
narrated by me
Philip Pape 1:00:00
yeah well nine Apple know your voice now and yeah, hopefully the trust in that like, oh yeah, this will be a relaxing experience and the lightning one as well. So all right well I will definitely include those in the show notes and give you all the love and you know the attention that's that comes out of this episode of of sharing with the world and hopefully people have taken a lot from this I know I have you've given me things to think about. And even the the exercise at the end to go into the mirror and just do that is very helpful. So thank you. It's truly an honor and pleasure to have you on the show, Christopher.
Christopher Maher 1:00:30
Oh, dude, it was a pleasure to be here, man. You're very talented at what you do. And you're obviously passionate about helping people and you care. And I could that came across from me the whole time. Appreciate that. So really, thanks to you for advice. Share with your peeps.
Philip Pape 1:00:50
Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 82: How to Bulk and Lose Fat to Maximize Muscle Gain and Get Ripped with Andy Morgan
Today I'm honored to sit down with none other than Andy Morgan, the passionate, knowledgeable, and well-muscled force behind RippedBody.com. You'll learn about Andy's experiences, his no-nonsense approach to fitness communication, and his thoughts on training, muscle-building and fat loss phases, and related topics like body fat percentage, scale weight fluctuations, and challenges during fat loss. Andy will also share his insights on the fitness industry, using data and solid principles to get results.
Today I'm honored to sit down with none other than Andy Morgan, the passionate, knowledgeable, and well-muscled force behind RippedBody.com. Originally from the UK but living in Tokyo, Andy has carved out a very clear path in the crowded world of fitness, and I've learned a ton from his books and online content, which is why I had to invite him on the show.
Today you'll learn about Andy's experiences, his no-nonsense approach to fitness communication, and his thoughts on training, muscle-building and fat loss phases, and related topics like body fat percentage, scale weight fluctuations, and challenges during fat loss. Andy will also share his insights on the fitness industry, using data and solid principles to get results.
Andy Morgan is a fitness coach, author, and entrepreneur who has been helping people achieve their physique goals for over a decade. He works with busy working professional men who are recreational, physique-focused trainees, and he uses a simple but data-driven and effective approach with his clients.
In addition to his website RippedBody.com, he co-authored the hugely popular Muscle and Strength Pyramids and wrote The Diet Adjustments Manual to eliminate guesswork during cuts and bulks. What I really appreciate about his content is how he simplifies complex concepts but uses data to back everything up while calling out the nonsense in the fitness industry with a healthy level of skepticism.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[3:38] How Andy developed his approach to fitness communication
[7:13] How he communicates the science and principles of nutrition and training and their applications
[15:54] Advice to people who want to start lifting
[19:56] How staying longer in the muscle-building phase is beneficial
[33:02] Andy's recommended rate of gain
[39:03] How important are body-fat percentages, and Andy's thoughts on using photos
[49:31] Training during the fat loss phase
[55:44] What is Andy most proud of in his coaching career
[59:46] Where to learn more about Andy
[1:00:56] Outro
Episode resources:
Andy’s website: rippedbody.com
Instagram: @andy_rippedbody
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https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
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Transcript
Andy Morgan 00:00
When you're new to lifting, you're gonna get a certain amount of muscle gain and fat loss. At the same time. However, the more advanced you get, the harder it is to achieve both at the same time to any measurable degree. And when it's very hard to measure something, it's very hard to manage for it. And then it's very hard to stay motivated.
Philip Pape 00:26
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm honored to sit down with none other than Andy Morgan, the passionate, knowledgeable and well muscled force behind ripped body.com originally from the UK, but living in Tokyo, and he's carved out a very clear path in the crowded world of fitness. And I've learned a ton from his books and online content, which is why I had to invite him on the show. Today you'll learn about Andy's experiences his no nonsense approach to fitness communication and his thoughts on training, muscle building and fat loss phases, and maybe some related topics like body fat percentage scale weight fluctuations, and challenges during fat loss. And he will also share his insights on the fitness industry using data and principles to get results. Andy Morgan is a fitness coach, author and entrepreneur who has been helping people achieve their physique goals for over a decade. He works with busy working professional men who are recreational physique focus trainees, and he uses a simple but data driven effective approach with them. In addition to his website, ripped body.com. He co authored the hugely popular muscle and strength pyramids, and wrote the diet adjustments manual for eliminating guesswork during cuts and books. What I really appreciated about his content is how he simplifies complex concepts, but uses data to back everything up while calling out the nonsense in the fitness industry with a healthy level of skepticism. Andy, it is a pleasure man to welcome you to the show.
Andy Morgan 02:16
Felipe Thank you honored to be on and frankly, I would love to hire you to walk into every room 30 seconds before I walk into that room just to announce to people quite who is walking in. And I didn't realize how important and special I am. And now I do. And you know, I've got all those warm, fuzzy feels.
Philip Pape 02:36
That's what I wanted. Man. I wanted that warm, fuzzy feeling with you to really break the ice. And it's funny because we talked we were talking about the the intros to the podcast beforehand. Some people read them live, some people record them and I learned years ago and trying to do speeches with people how important was to introduce them live. And so I like to carry that spirit into a podcast.
Andy Morgan 02:58
Yeah, you make a good point, though. I am currently on a break from my pod, but I think it works super well. And I'm going to switch that style as well. Actually, there's a couple of things that I've picked up from listening to your podcast that Mike. Yeah, that really, really? Yes.
Philip Pape 03:13
That's awesome, man.
03:14
It's good. It's good.
Philip Pape 03:15
That's great. All right, because I'm telling people, man that I've kind of been idolizing you for a bit since I got into your work years ago. And I invited you on. I'm like, I gotta have Andy on. That'd be awesome. And so that that makes me feel warm and fuzzy, by the way. So here we go. It's a love fest on the show. All right. So speaking of one of the things that appeals to me about you, and how you communicate is you get right to the point. And I think the first time I was exposed to your work was it used to be called The Last Read, right? And now it's the diet adjustments manual. I had an on Kindle or something back in the day. And I have no idea how to control my results. And some of the stuff you broke down very simply do this. Here are the steps. Here's some stick figures that explain who you are. And here's some graphs that tell you how it works. People overcomplicate things all the time. Right. And that was refreshingly the opposite. So how did you get to this point and develop that unique style that you have?
Andy Morgan 04:13
That's quite a tricky question. Ultimately, I've always been writing for myself. But at this point, my early 20s self it's the stuff that I wish I knew, written in a way that I that would have resonated with me. And now as I've gotten older, the the way that that would have resonated with me that language has changed slightly. But it's always been about trying to simplify and save myself from the, the vast, vast amounts of nonsense out there in the fitness industry. So I want people to stumble across the website and feel? Alone. Wonderful. Someone who's not just trying to trick me out of my money, someone who doesn't have a little supplements at the end, I'm not saying that all supplements are nonsense, but the vast majority are. And so if I was to start selling one, in all of a sudden, you're going to question my credibility for all of them. So they don't. And, you know, they can read the website, yes, they could purchase a book, if they want to get pretty much what is on the website, but with in a more organized fashion. And that would be worth their time and money. And a lot of people feel so bad. No, it's all free. All the results are here from different clients over the years. And then if these are the client results that I have, then obviously, they can imagine that it's probably 10x more readers, and they've had similar results. And then there's a very non in your face. Look, if you're interested in coaching, go here, this is what I do. So I've tried to make it all about helping myself back then not go through all of the crap that I went through, in my physique struggle to get where I am now. It's like, the mentor that I wish I had. That's kind of the approach that I've tried to take to it.
Philip Pape 06:29
Okay, okay, which is probably at that, like, at the feeling when I go to your website, like this is just right there, like the information is there. There's nothing I have to wade through, and I have to go and click a million links. And I'll have to figure out what you're talking about. Probably the original book appealed to me to appeal to me that way, as well. And maybe it's why a lot of us do what we do, like with this podcast, you know, I went through years and years for decades of not knowing. And then it's like, I've learned from guys like Danny and others, like, it's just simple principles that you can apply, you know, lift heavy, you know, be consistently whatever they are. And I want to help people get that shortcut. So it sounds like you're doing that, as evidenced by the whitespace on your site and the clear information. So I love that. Thank you. Well, we talked about evidence based fitness and nutrition science and research that some of that is where it can get very overwhelming even though it's great information and great work people are doing. How does that reconcile with the idea of providing simple, simple, actionable advice? Like why should people trust you that you are telling them the truth, so to speak, because you're cutting all that other fluff out?
Andy Morgan 07:32
Why should people trust me? That's a difficult question. May I come back to that? Yeah, sure. I think the key is a science communicator that I am, I consider myself to be a layer down from my co author, Eric Helms, who I know that you've had on as well as the co author on the muscle and strength pyramid books. He sits in between myself and the, the actual researchers, and yes, he's, he's done research himself, but generally, he's a science communicator, translating and explaining the latest studies, he's directly reading those himself, he and his colleagues, between them, they will read something like two 300. Maybe under doing it their per month, scouring as many relevant journals as there are out there, and then putting out the most relevant information for us who are chasing physique and a strength and body common goals. And so, I learned from that, as a fitness professional myself, anyone else who's not a fitness professional is welcome to learn from that. But often that content is a little too heavy for the average person to dig into. And so I write for the person I kind of serve as an intermediate layer. Writing for now, it's, you know, I'm gonna turn 40 This year, people my age, generally, they're married with kids, they're getting well on in their careers, they're usually doing really well there. They have given their, you know, they give it all to their career and to their family. They've ended up letting their physical health slip, and they're far from the prime that they had while they were in college. And they want to get that back but they just don't feel they have time or they felt that there. They feel guilty about giving time to it and when they have tried to give time to it. They just kind of got sucked in by different fad diets or pills, potions, false promises of the fitness industry, and they tend to often they tend to at some point, sadly He quit, because they just get ripped off with tricks so much and think this isn't allowed me a certain portion of those who are left they've kept on persevering. They come to my website, or those or your podcast or, you know, people like us, and they're like, Ah, okay, well, this is information that is simple enough for me to apply. It's just a, if this is your situation, Do this, do this, do this, do this, a little bit of, of course, contextual language here, you know, explaining for different circumstances, but it's very much a how to, rather than too much of a science done. And the way that I try to be a say a little different is I try to help people understand the principles of nutrition and training and body comp, which is mainly body comp, it's not so much on the powerlifting strength side, although they kind of go hand in hand, as as you know, I try to help people to understand the frameworks that go behind the decisions that they can make, so that they're then free to make those decisions themselves. And they understand why a certain decision is the right decision for them at that time. So what do I mean by that, I'll give one quick example of a framework. And then one example of how to apply a framework might be the nutrition pyramid, that Eric popularized, I think, in a 2013 video on YouTube, talking about how adherence is obviously the foundational layer of the pyramid. And then as you ascend up the pyramid, the things get less and less important. So after adherence, you know, sticking to what you can actually do, then we've got calorie balance, then we've got macronutrient, intake, then micronutrients and water. After that, and nutrient timing, this is your meal timing. And then after that supplements. So this is a framework for thinking of the pyramid of importance. So if you're thinking about what supplements you should be taking, but ignoring calorie balance, well, this is getting this is putting the cart before the horse, this is getting things out of order, and you're unlikely to get to where you want to go. Now, given that this is the pyramid of importance, at certain phases, at certain points in our life, we may decide to try to implement all layers of this pyramid in a in as rigorous and as optimal, quote, unquote, optimal way as possible. However, there will come times, let's say you get married, have kids have a really busy time at work, where you are just totally unable to then have the perfect, perfectly spaced for meals with your optimal morning training session, after you're perfectly timed one hour before protein shake, because otherwise you'd be training fasted. And, you know, you have to then know, okay, how far can I simplify things, given my situation, without really compromising my results, or by compromising my results by the minimal amount? Because when people don't know that, they get themselves into this? All or nothing mentality, which is the key thing that I tried to get clients to avoid. So I've been coaching now for over 12 years. If I see a client, who is able to do what they can when they can, but except when they fall short, but still do what they can not just like be like, they, they have the effort mentality. I don't know what your policy is on swearing here, but they're like, I can't do this. So I'm not going to do any of it. This is a breakfast buffet, my family want to eat this breakfast buffet while I'm away. Normally, I don't eat breakfast. So how I'm just going to enjoy this vacation and have my breakfast and I have all of the ice creams and you know, they're just everything goes to hell. If they can, if they understand where they can make compromises, or make simplifications without really compromising their results, then that gives people freedom. And that's what I want. Yeah.
Philip Pape 14:51
I think you explain that very well, from the context of having the framework because adherents are consistency we use works like that. And people do conflate that with always on the game, always doing what you have to do every day. And as soon as you mess up, it goes off the rails. So I like how you spoke to your audience, which is also a lot of my audience, and it's me, technically, people who are around 40, I'm 42. This evening on that much time, let's get real, like, this is reality, right? You're not going to, like you said, you're not gonna work out at 5am Every day, have your carbon protein before and after, you know, have exactly everything, everything lined up. So I like that. So you were you work with physique, focused men who are already lifting? So there's sort of a premise that they have some level of understanding or education about that it's coming in working with, which is good, right? That's like your carving, you know, who, where do you need to be first before I work with you. So I actually want to focus just on the left side of that point, just for a second, because on your site, you say, Hey, you can get a personal trainer, you know, I don't work with people directly in person, it's an online thing you have to be lifting. Do you have advice for people who want to seriously lift, they're lacking the information, and what kind of programming resources should they follow to get to that point where you can help them.
Andy Morgan 16:12
So I would like to think that those people could come to my website, read it, implement it, and know exactly what to do it the coaching, the coaching is for a more specific niche. And part of that is marketing. And part of that is, because that's what I'm good at, because that's what we are good at, but written body. But they're kind of feed fed themselves over time. And it's become a self fulfilling thing. So as I've niche down further and further, so it's like only people who lift only people, only men, only men who are over this age, only people who agreed to not use their phones, When emailing because we do everything over email. And people come in constant when they using their phones with email. It's just kind of become, we've got better and better and better at this niche, and worse at everything else. But the website, I like to think of it as you know, day to day when I'm introduced to people, and I want to be able to say to them, oh yeah, just go to the website. And know that they can be, they can get what they need from that. So there's some simple programs on there, we've actually got the programs and the muscle and strength pyramids on there, we've got a few others for free as well. We've got some simple nutrition guidelines on there. We've got an guides for form, we've developed some myself actually on, I have a Japanese website as well. And with the Japanese team, we, we developed a product for how to bench squat and deadlift. But I've got some free guides on the website. That's our comm slash squat, slash deadlift, slash bench. And then those are all free. Eric Helms and his team at 3d muscle journey, they've got a great resources, they've got something called their lifting library, which will teach you the form of pretty much all of the lifts that you'll find in the gym and how to execute them properly. Which seems obvious, but it can, it's something worth revisiting, let's say every, if you're new, say every couple of months, and then after that, maybe every year or so. Because you can forget. But I've also got resources section, so rubberduck COMM slash resources, and you can see my recommended resources, and then where for readers, and then also where I learned from. So yeah, I Yeah, that's what I'd recommend. And the reason I say that I say my own stuff, and you know, I've kind of poured my heart and soul into that. So it's not necessarily an actual thing I can say, Yeah, okay, my stuff. I can vouch for that. And then, you know, there's so much other stuff that I could say, but you know, when you give them a let's get an option,
Philip Pape 19:17
yeah, no, that's good. And I think in like one of my very first episodes on this podcast, I'm sure I mentioned, among a very few select resources, one of them mean like starting strength and some stuff by Greg knuckles. And I think I mentioned you're, like 42 video, lifting guide or whatever it is 42 Whatever it is, something like that, right? Because I do think it's important that people you know, start from where they're at, but if they know when it gets to a certain point, and take advantage of these other resources, they have to have these prerequisites in place. It's kind of like when people talk about just wanting to lose weight or lose fat like Well, are you training it? No. What does it have to do with losing family? Well, there's a big connection between, you know, body composition and and training. So I think that's important. Going back real quick to the requirements you have one of those is that people eat meat? Is that also just from the natural process of niching? Down? Or is that a more specific thing because of the challenges of working with vegans or vegetarians, like on the protein side.
Andy Morgan 20:10
So this is gonna sound like a weird one. But there was a time that I can basically remove it now. I would say, when it's vegan, things get more complicated. Although someone's vegetarian, it doesn't really matter. There was a time when I thought that it was a big deal. But it doesn't seem so anymore. whether someone's protein sources going to be animal versus plant based, as long as they're eating a sufficient amount of protein in total, then pretty much good. All the research seems to show that they're pretty much good. So yeah, I could, I could take that way.
Philip Pape 20:55
There you go, man. So update update the say, No, that's got us wondering, because I've been interviewing guys and talking a lot about plant, just talk to Eric Trexler, too, because he's all plant based, and just really trying to understand that topic. And you're right, the more and more we find out, it is simple against simple principles of just getting enough protein is the big part of the pyramid. Right? The other stuff is it is gravy as icing, if it's even necessary for other things like nutrients or hard health or whatever. Cool.
Andy Morgan 21:26
So it's yeah, it's when you know, like the the kind of when you can peek behind the matrix and look at these, you know, the different? How can I say you've got the different mental maps, you've got the different layers, the principles here, you can kind of see, okay, fat loss, what is that, in the simplest times, okay, you want to have a calorie deficit, which means that you're burning more than you are taking in, whether that's liquid sort of solid drinks or food. And so then, if you were to have roughly, in fact, I'm not even going to go that deep, I'm not even going to talk about the number of calories. So burn more than you take in, and then tell your body to hang on to muscle mass, the next most important thing is to tell it to hang on to muscle mass with strength training, some form of hard resistance training, that's hard enough to tell it that that muscle that you have is important. And the more training experience you have, the harder you're going to need, the newer you are, the less you'll need. And then the next layer on that is going to be eating a sufficient amount of protein getting enough protein in the day in total. And then the spacing of that protein, the spacing of those calories and where those calories are coming from. Otherwise, that's all much much, much lower down on the pyramid of import of sorry, much higher up on the pyramid of importance. It means Yeah, so much smaller, much, much less important. Sorry, the one thing I needed to mention there in terms of calories is losing weight at an appropriate rate. So this isn't two ways, that's what you can sustain. And then that it's at an appropriate rate for your current level of body fat. So if you are carrying a lot of body fat, you can get away with faster rates of weight loss than someone who's say sub 10% body fat and going to be stepping on a bodybuilding stage in a couple of months. For those people, they need to be very, very careful about their rate of body fat. So something between point five and 1%. The sweet spot tends to be point seven, five for average folks, and then maybe about point 5%. For those who are, you know, getting very, very lean, and then you can nudge up and down from there. Based on your mood, energy levels, how your sleep is going hunger, etc. Yeah.
Philip Pape 24:06
And that's where you start to get into the little extra corner cases that people ask all the questions about right like, but what about me with this, you know, what about this? But it still comes down to principles. So I like the idea, just starting from the basics. And then if you got those down, because if not, let's not even worry about the rest just yet. But before we get to fatloss one question I wanted to pick your brain on because I I'm not sure I've seen the most clear answer on why this is the case. But when we talk about muscle building, and one concept I learned from you early on was stay in that muscle building phase for like 567 months, you know, a decent amount of time. Don't do it for only three months. But break it down for this. Why is why is it important physiologically, maybe it's neuromuscular? Maybe it's hormone something when you build for six instead of three months?
Andy Morgan 24:54
Sure, so I'm not I'm not good at the science.
24:58
Okay. The same way that however you want to explain it, I'm Derrick Alex's privato, folders, etc. But
Andy Morgan 25:05
the in broad times, when you, if we back up for a second, when you're new to lifting, you're gonna get a certain amount of muscle gain and fat loss. At the same time. However, the more advanced you get, the harder it is to achieve both at the same time to any measurable degree. And when it's very hard to measure something, it's very hard to manage for it. And then it's very hard to stay motivated. And so you need to then choose between phases of fat loss and phases of weight gain with the goal of mainly muscle gain, or rather with the goal of muscle gain, which is unfortunately going to attain some fat regain. But that's just how it is. Now, in many cases, that's going to be obvious. People know whether they need to lean at football cup. And there are some cases where it's not. And I've kind of written a nice call about that. If you just go to rip out comm slash cut hyphen, or hyphen, bulk, I've tried to keep all the URLs as obvious as possible.
Philip Pape 26:20
That's a listener actually, that's a go to for sure.
Andy Morgan 26:24
Thank you, thank you, this cut hyphen or hyphen book, I've tried to keep them simple. So people can just type guests as they type things in. And then if it doesn't come up, then there's a search box, and it'll come up. So then, so then what you need to know is that Celeste, you're cycling between cut and bulk phases. But when you end the cut and transition into a bulk your body, there are some hormonal changes that take place when we cut, and there are some hormonal changes that happen, kind of reverse. And also some new ones that happen as we move into a calorie surplus. But there's a lag on the timing there. And because there's a lag on the timing there, you can't just switch from a cut to a bulk, do that for three months, and then switch straight back into a cut and think that you are having three months of pure, highly optimized muscle gain period, because your body just isn't in a state where it's charged to be gaining muscle just yet, it can take a few weeks. And so and potentially longer depending on how lean you got and how long your previous cut was. And so that's one thing. That's one reason why you want to have longer booking periods than just say a short three months. The second is, muscle gain is exceptionally slow. Let's say you're an you're an intermediate lifter, you're gaining point seven 5%. Which would be good actually, point seven 5% of your bodyweight as muscle mass per month, let's say that you could do that, that might be about a pound of muscle per month. If you were to gain in the two months, you have left there, two pounds of muscle when you cut down again, because you're going to have to cut the fat off that you've gained, are you going to actually be able to notice that difference? Probably not right. And then it's going to be very difficult to feel that you've that that time that you've spent has been worth it. And so then that's going to be it's going to have a big chip on your motivation. So you need to spend longer enough that you have that you give your body enough time to accrue enough muscle mass so that once you've cut back down again, and you've revealed all that muscle mass after you've taken that cumulative fat gain off, you're looking at enough of a difference where you're like, yes, I've done it. Yeah, you know, like
Philip Pape 29:26
Eddie ripped off like it was Superman. Like, you know, he just ripped off the shirt. Yeah.
Andy Morgan 29:31
I wasn't quite sure. But I'll take it. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I feel that this was absolutely worth it. So you might say cut for. I don't depending on how much body fat you have. It could be three months, it could be six months, and then you're going to move into a bulk phase. And let's say you bulk for only like four or five months. And then you cut the fat off again. It potentially could take you just a couple of months. But let's say you dig around a bit and it takes you three and a half months because you struggle to get Get back into it. Or then now you've spent in that bulk and then cut, you've spent like eight and a half months, and you've got maybe four pounds of muscle to show for it. And you can't really tell because muscle muscle and muscle mass is a really tricky thing. Yeah, you you it benefits you to have longer bulk phases. Yeah. And then I like that. Yeah, go ahead. No. And then the trick, of course, or the part where people get themselves in a mess, is that they, they don't get lean enough, before they balk. And so they end their bulking phases, or gaining phases of bulk is a scary word for you. They end their gaining phases too early, because they start feeling too fat. And then, of course, they end up in that problem that I just said, where they don't feel that they've actually made a meaningful difference. So very often. Rather, one good way of thinking of it is that the, the bulkhead phase should be spent at the extremes. At the point where you're failing on the bulk end, the end of the bulk end, slightly too fluffy. And on that end of the cut phase, slightly too lean for your comfort. And you try to just navigate between kind of in waves, and between those two levels. So the never feeling so uncomfortable that you want to that you want or need to stop.
Philip Pape 31:37
So much of what you said is psychological, right? Let's just be honest, like the only the first point was related to this lag of hormones getting out of metabolic adaptation, recovering, and moving past that, but the rest of it is so important. And I can attest to the. And I'm still figuring it out. Because I've only been doing this for like three, four years myself. And it's like, when I get lean, I'm like, am I lean enough? You know, how is this good, I can see the six pack, but like not enough, maybe it should I just but then at the same time, and you didn't mention this benefit is I want to be eating a lot of food most of the year, like let's just be honest, I want to be in a bowl for most of the year. And that's one benefit. I tell people to just do you want to be dieting all the time, like you have in the past and then struggling or just like three to one four to one ratio of being in a surplus. But the point about not being lean enough, is good, because you I think you talked about in some of your content, like if you first have a lot of weight to lose, you're gonna get that off, and you can get down to certain point in your in this range. Now, where's that range for you? Right? Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. And before we get there, the muscle building rate of gain. So the evidence says hey point one 2.25% of your body weight per week, which always seemed pretty tight and precise to get to. And I know we both use macro factor now that kind of helps. But I've seen you recommend higher than that for like newer lifters. Right like point 4% is something like a one and a quarter one and a half pound a month something or for Yeah,
Andy Morgan 33:25
I don't actually think in terms of weeks. I'm having a making me do my
Philip Pape 33:31
point. Florida 1% A month there. Yeah, point 41%. What is your recommended rate again, based on training age? Let's just put it that way.
Andy Morgan 33:38
Yeah, sure. So. So I work with guys. Most guys, by the time they come to a bulking phase, they're going to be somewhere between 140 and two underpants, depending on how tall they are. Alright, and their level of training experience, right? Say 130, sorry, it could be lower. Actually, obviously, depending on height, of course, you take the extremes of the height range here and the extremes of the level of lifting experience. And there are going to be outliers here. But let's say somewhere between 140 and 200 pounds. Practically, then, what that means is that the the rate of gain that I would recommend is typically somewhere between two and three pounds per month. And this is because I don't tend to work with really really advanced lifters and I don't tend to work with the completely new people. And that two to three pounds a month. This is something that is measurable and therefore manageable and something that people can stay motivated for. Anything less than, say two pounds a month or point five pounds per week is going to be very hard to measure because of course of the fluctuations in it. In weight from water got got content and glycogen changes, even if you are taking daily averages. And so what does that work out to? about somewhere between one and 1.5% of body weight, so sorry, somewhere between one and 2% of their body weight. And part of that is, you'll notice a difference there. You've got point four 1%, you said per month, right? And I'm talking about, well, somewhere between one and 2% per month, which is double. And that's purposeful, because I'm acknowledging that some of the weight that you're going to gain is going to be fat. And if you are to set your rate of weight gain at the maximum muscular potential, or that sorry, at the likely rate of muscle gain, if you do everything right. Well, I've never seen anyone only gain muscle. So we may as well set our calorie surplus higher, so that we've got enough of a buffer there to maximize our potential muscle gain at that time. So if you were to only try and gain a pound per month, and let's say that you could measure and manage for that, and technically, yes, you should be gaining a pound of muscle, well, you're probably only going to get half a pound of muscle and half a pound of fat anyway. So just bank on the fact that you're gonna get half man, half fat. If you do everything, right, or the best case half of its going to be fat anyway. And, and and plan for that, and accept that. Now, the thing to say to yourself is like, Look just before, you know, you're saying, Am I lean enough. But one way of thinking about this, if you are in that range of what I just said, and you can maybe take a third off of this if you're smaller, or you're female. Once you're at the point where you think you can bulk, ask yourself over the next six to seven months, if I were to gain 10 pounds of body fat, and 20 to 25 pounds overall. Would I be okay with that? And if the answer's no, you may need to get leaner. And of course, you need to modify those numbers down if you are a smaller person. But for the guys I work with that works out it's a fair heuristic. And for some of them, they would not feel comfortable, they can just look back at their photos, you know, previously, or their measurements. And they know so then they know they need to get leaner, and if they feel that they can, because their hunger fatigue levels of manageable and their training is still going well enough. And the performance is still okay. Then, yeah, then they'll continue with that. And then last thing, and then I'll shut up. The reason I say 25 pounds, even I said 10 pounds of fat. And we're talking about a theoretical one on one. So the reason I said 25 Or not 20 pounds that because we're going to have anywhere from like, two to five pounds of water, gut content and glycogen regain after to overshoot the finish the cut? Yeah, exactly.
Philip Pape 38:31
I love it, man. So this is again, where it's like decision points. It's decision trees, at least the engineer in me enjoys that. Like if this this if this this. If you're good gaining 25 pounds and 10 of that is fat. Then go then you're lean enough, right? So I'm going to my friend Carl, I hope he's listening. Actually, the episode with him just came out today and he's bulking and I think he can push him more. So listen to this, listen to this that I hear my man. And I might change my rate again and macro factor myself who knows? We'll see. Really push it. So body fat percentage is another aspect of this, right? Because you talk a lot about using photos which is which which is I'll say objective like we call it subjective. But in reality, it's something you can see change over time. I mean, that's my opinion. You also talk about using the Navy calculator, which I found is pretty good for trends. You know. My question is should we care about body fat percentage really like the number should we care? And if so, why are most methods pretty much horribly inaccurate? And photos still the way to go? Is that your recommendation?
Andy Morgan 39:35
So I listened to your buddy Carl, listen to the episode. Parts of it anyway. And so I disagree with him on on this one. Because he mentioned who we got, you know,
Philip Pape 39:52
I don't like to I don't call out. Yes, you know, no,
Andy Morgan 39:55
no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not knocking someone. One of the pitfalls of Using a body fat percentage measurement device,
Philip Pape 40:03
or the Rambler device? Oh, yeah, I gotta call them out on that, I hear what you're saying,
Andy Morgan 40:08
I assume so bioelectrical impedance analysis, I assume it was most of these home devices aren't, it's something where you step onto a scale, they've got some metal plates, it sends an electric current through your body. And it's not actually measuring body fat percentage, it's measuring the resistance of current, it's then the sorry, the impedance. And then, based on some clever equations, it's then estimating your fat free mass, and then based on your scale weights, and coming up with a number for an estimation of your body fat, unfortunately, hydration status, have glycogen status, which is how many carbs we've eaten recently, and therefore, how have full muscles are, how full our guts are, with food, which is going to change not just whether we've just pooped, or a lot, or a little, but also the types of foods that we've had. Because we don't eat, what most people don't eat the same thing every day. And so you're going to have fluctuations in these readings. And so the problem is, not only are these machines that we have access to, not only are they inaccurate, but they aren't necessarily consistent with their readings either. And so you can be 2% down one day, 2% up in two weeks time, despite feeling and seeing that your shorts are physically looser, it can tell you that you're you've gained a couple of percentage points of body fat, and because people tend to look at, but of course, cow is a product, he knows. He knows that that is impossible, and he knows that it must be an erroneous reading. But the vast majority of people don't. They have an idea that gut says, we'll ship that's not right. But they're like, No, there's a number on this expensive machine that I paid for. And all the marketing says is amazing. And therefore I have definitely lost muscle and gain fat is what they told themselves. And then they get themselves into this mental spiral. And maybe they click and it's really sad. And so I never use any of these devices for clients. I don't even recommend they go for Dexter's DEXA scan, it's, it's expensive, it's a little better. Where these devices are useful is in assessing group averages, which is essential for research. And but for the individual, I recommend that we don't use them, I recommend taking weight, taking your weight each day and averaging it. And noting that at the end of the week, and then noting that across the week's macro factor, we'll do that for you. Which I know you're a fan of. And but you can just literally just write that down in a notebook. It's a math isn't hard, or a
Philip Pape 43:16
nerd out on this and people know It's 20 day exponential moving average. So put that in Excel. You're good to go. Yeah, it's that easy, right? Yeah. Yeah, you
43:28
could do it in your head.
Andy Morgan 43:30
And then lost my train of thought dammit. Put me up, put me up
Philip Pape 43:35
about using the photos. You were saying? Yeah, you could use a weight scale recommend other measures? Yep.
Andy Morgan 43:42
Yeah. So scale away. Note the averages if you want to do all in your head. In fact, this is how I do it with clients. I don't use a moving average. I just have a look at the the averages across the weeks. And then I know what their adherence to their diets works. They know that in the spreadsheet as well. It's a percentage of their total calorie targets for the week. So if they go, say Timpson over, then they'll write 110% If they were 5%, under the under eight that week, it'll be 95%. So I can see that. And then I've got kind of a report telling me like any occasions where they went off their diet, and they maybe they had a birthday party or whatever. So now I know that timing compared with the numbers to then I know we're likely to be a bit bloated on that day. I'll then have them with their body measurements. I get people to do it in nine places. So their limbs, their. Their limbs when flexed their chest back measurement and their waist and three places on the stomach. So at the navel and then three finger widths above the navel, and then three, three finger widths below the navel and that's because fat loss tends to come top down, and isn't, doesn't come from everywhere at the same time. And so with those two things you can, with that combination of things you can capture how your progress is going with the photos, that's a good idea. I do get clients to take them every month, you could take them more often than that, but I wouldn't base any decisions on what you see in the photos more often than that data is really where I put the, I put the emphasis on when making decisions. And that's just because you know, photos, even with the same lighting, and the same time of day, it, it's, it's a bit subjective, and our mind can play tricks on us. We may be slightly more pumped up from particularly good session, or maybe you had a few more carbs and therefore muscles are for us, I really like to use those scale weight averages. measurement points along with the nutrition adherence when assessing these things, for sure,
Philip Pape 46:03
yeah, the more of this data you have, and it's not once you get in the routine, it's not that complicated to make it just part of your habit. Those key data points all come together, if anyone is missing, you're kind of missing that piece of the puzzle, right? If if, you know, if a client if their weight is not moving, well, is it really a plateau? Or would their body measurement show their waist going down? And they're, you know, going through body? recomp? Things like that. Right? Um, you talked to one of your reels you, you talked about skill? Wait, sorry, did you want to say something? Yeah, it
Andy Morgan 46:32
was just, I didn't answer your question. Forgive me for that. I'm sorry. Good. So so before we we come back to that, you asked me like, do I recommend is it important that people know their body fat percentage, right? Not really, I think it's most important that directionally, they are, they know whether they're making progress towards their goal. But then, you know, you can give descriptions around whether someone should bulk or cut. And as part of those descriptions that can be useful to give people an idea of what they might look like, when they're considering bulking when they should consider cutting. And so for that reason, I've got an article, I'll just call it my body fat guide, is body fat percentage pictures, compare your body fat level, so report.com/body-fat-guide. And then I've got a collection of what seven to 9% looks like, what 10 To 11% Looks like what 12 To 14% Looks like 15 17% looks like? It's all men, unfortunately, because these are all client photos over the years. But I've got, I think there are something like 50 photos in here of clients. So you can see what it's going to look like on different people at different heights, right at different body fat percentages. So then you can compare and get an idea for yourself. And I should caveat, this is all based on my eye. So I'm just kind of giving you an idea of what I think this is like, but hopefully that's helpful when you pair it with like the should I cuddlebug guide and that kind of thing showed in terms of assessing your progress? No, absolutely don't need to know it. And yeah, I just think it's a it's a it's a game that's gonna, that you can't win, and it's gonna lead to heartache.
Philip Pape 48:29
It's true. All right, yeah. And those physique photos are helpful, especially when you have people of different body types at the same body fat percentage can look different. And so you kind of find, you know, where's my body typing there, and then you realize how delusional you are about your body.
Andy Morgan 48:45
Essentially, like that there's a the golden rule is, you are fatter than you think. And when you finish your first cut, you will be you will have less muscle mass than you thought. Sorry, it's haven't met a single person ever, ever. breaks those those rules.
Philip Pape 49:05
So when you are in a cut, then let's let's get segue to this. There's conflicting information about certain things in a fat loss phase, like how to train right? People think everything has to change in a fat loss phase dramatically. How to Train, how do I use cardio? You know, people get complicated with nonlinear dieting strategies. I'm actually doing a training on refeed days. So I understand like, that's one of those things, you know, most people don't need them, but some people will. What are some, I guess, questions or misconceptions that come up for you often during fat loss that people could really benefit? hearing your perspective on? It could be hunger, it could be psychological stress, whatever, whatever comes
Andy Morgan 49:41
to mind. Well so people talk a lot of shit on the internet, and in podcasts, and surprise price, right? And so then the questions that I get Ah, highly varied. So instead of answering your question, okay. I'm instead going to change this as, what do I recommend? That someone does? That'd be alright. Sure, go for it, please. Okay, so
50:19
plasma chain, remind me that the question again,
Philip Pape 50:23
fat loss during a fat loss phase, just what do you do? Because I was asking about training, cardio
Andy Morgan 50:29
training. Yeah. So how should someone think about training? Well, you have fewer calories coming in, so your body has far less potential to create muscle. While you are now in this calorie deficit is compromised your you risk going into a recovery deficit. So you can keep your training program that you used when you are bulking. But you need to be mindful that as you progress into your cut, you may start to feel unusually high levels of soreness, your joints may start to get crankier than normal, you may start to Well, you probably will start to plateau, and then potentially regress with your lifts. And when any one of those things happen, you could consider just tapering back the training volume a little. Now you can do this on an individual lift basis. Or you could do this globally, I think you should consider a mix of both of these. So let's say that you've worked up to five sets of bench twice a week, when you're bulking and that was working really well. But as you are cutting, you're now find yourself struggling, or you find that your shoulders have started to get cranky, even though you haven't changed your form at all, you might consider for that exercise to reduce the number of sets that you do to four per session, so eight per week. Again, this is just an example. And then that the crankiness might resolve and you may be able to maintain your strength better there. Now, let's say that you start to feel really tired, is getting a drag getting out of bed, you're kind of dreading going to the gym, you're sore everywhere. Well, in that case, you might consider just globally reducing volume everywhere. Not necessarily everywhere, everywhere, but you might consider lopping off a set or two per movement per week. Actually, let's, let's make it even simpler, you may consider slashing one set from each of your exercises, barring perhaps for isolation work. So your main compound movements in each session, that will just be one very simple way of going about it. This is the basis of how I tend to think about these things. The training program itself does not need to radically change from a cut to a bulk phase, because what your body needs hasn't really changed, you need to tell it to hold on to that muscle mass. And that signal to hold on to the muscle mass, when you're in a calorie surplus is the same signal to grow. It's just the what you're fueling your body with the amount is different, so it can't. And then when it comes to cardio, I would just say that is one way of addressing calorie balance. It tends to be a fairly inefficient method for doing so. And yeah, it's it's something that should be used sparingly, because it's much easier to control your math than it is to. It's much easier to not have the 400 Calorie Frappuccino than it is to spend 50 minutes running for the equivalent energy button, if you're lucky, might be more than that. So while you can add cardio in, do it sparingly. And one thing I know that you're a fan of this as well, I believe you're a fan of this as well. It's just keeping up a minimum step count if you can, as you cut just so that your overall energy expenditure is kind of maintained. Because when we are in a calorie deficit, you know, we're in an energy deficit. We tend to get lazier, we're not necess already aware of it as step counts can plummet, and then that can make us forces to reduce food even further and further. So by purposefully keeping your step count up, it can really help make the diet more manageable because you're able to continue to eat more as a diet progresses.
Philip Pape 55:19
Yeah, for sure. I mean, some people don't realize how, how much of an impact that can have. And it happens pretty quickly, at least I've seen with some clients how just updated up in that sub panel within a week you start to see a response. Okay, do you have a hard stop? Because I know we're Time flew, this is a good conversation where it's been an hour. So maybe just one more question or two? Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask you, what are you most proud of in your coaching career?
Andy Morgan 55:47
Hmm. So I get pride, pride is a tricky one. I like to think that the website is a good thing. It is in I'm proud of the website. Because there are many ways that I could have sold out to have many millions of dollars in the bank. But I chose not to. Because I wanted to do a good thing. And that's important to me, I want people to stumble across it. And, you know, just feel grateful for it. And to be one of the voices in the industry that you know, one of the few people in our corner the industry that's, you know, really doing right by people. Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people that are good in this industry is just that the the charlatans, the bad ones, they tend to stick out, right, just because of how the algorithms work. So I think if I think about my career generally, is probably just the website and putting, trying to put out good quality information and not cluttering it up. And then the, the impact that that has, because what you know, while I'm sleeping, fat is positively impacting many people's lives and continues to do so. So it's not really about who I've worked with, or what I've done while working with people. It's about what the website is able to do. And then there's a process of that a small percentage of people decide to click the coaching page, read through, decide that it's for them, and then how to start a conversation and maybe hire me. And it's been a pleasure and honor to work with so many people. So it's all of that combined. Really.
Philip Pape 58:00
I love that answer, right? Because the web, if you just said the website, right? People want to know more because that it's just this thing out there that you've built, right, but reminds me of a science fiction book I read years ago where humanity was going to collapse. And they had to figure out how to how to encode all of our knowledge. And they'd like what's the one medium we can put it in, and it was stone, like carving on stone and putting it on Pluto or something right? And a website, as mundane as it sounds like you've put your heart and soul into it. And there's a level of integrity there. You will you said you want people to feel grateful, and I'm sure they thank you all the time, and I do as well. So you've been making that impact. Love that.
Andy Morgan 58:38
It's not that I want people to feel grateful. I know, that's not what
Philip Pape 58:43
I wrote on my notes that you said I probably miss. Sorry.
Andy Morgan 58:47
No, I want people to feel that this is something that they can trust. They can put it into practice, that they can just use it and not need to pay anything. And I think this just puts out, you know, good vibes in the world and those things come back. And then worst case, if everything goes tits up. I you know, I've got beer credits in many different cities around the world and then potentially even couches to sleep on. So
Philip Pape 59:18
yeah, well, you know, still they're gonna, they're gonna have gratitude because they were able to get that from your website. So that's all I'm gonna say. What are you saying that? Alright, so second, the last question. You knew this was coming? Is there a question you wish I had asked and what is your answer?
Andy Morgan 59:34
No. You've done a great job. I said at the start of this off the like, you're a good interviewer. You know me and you knew what to ask. And yeah, notice there's nothing
Philip Pape 59:45
but appreciate it. That's good enough answer for me. Where do you want listeners to find your work in case we didn't talk about your website? Enough, right.
59:54
Sorry about that. Yeah, no, no, I
Philip Pape 59:55
don't I don't mean that as a dig at all. I'm just saying people should know by now. Rip body.com But is there anywhere else? See?
Andy Morgan 1:00:00
Exactly. That's it. If you want to follow along on Instagram, it's Andy underscore ripped body. But the detailed stuff, it's all on. It's all on the website. The Instagram is some short reels. I tried to put the detailed information I have on the site into short real form, but it's really tricky. And I much prefer writing. And then in the stories, it's more just kind of like life in Japan and kind of what I do day to day.
Philip Pape 1:00:32
Yeah, yeah, the reels are good, because they're just, you know, how to everyday it's like a how to write you had one recently about weight fluctuations and how to experiment on yourself to see how much it fluctuates, right, like, right this way, see how much fluctuates weigh yourself, like before and after bed, see how much flux, so good stuff like that. All right, website IgM. And add all the links of course in the show notes. I appreciate everything. Appreciate your time and also listening to my show at a time. That's that's an honor to me. It was cool to have you on so thank you.
Andy Morgan 1:01:03
Thank you. I appreciate you. And thank you listeners for taking the time.
Philip Pape 1:01:10
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 81: Wellness Through Positive Psychology and Upward Spiraling with Darlene Marshall
We are talking today with Darlene Marshall about the fascinating interplay between holistic wellness coaching and positive psychology and how it can help unlock your full potential. We'll go into holistic wellness, upward spiraling, habit priming, neurological flexibility, and more.
We are talking today with Darlene Marshall about the fascinating interplay between holistic wellness coaching and positive psychology and how it can help unlock your full potential. We'll go into holistic wellness, upward spiraling, habit priming, neurological flexibility, and more.
I met Darlene through Carl Berryman of Inspired by Impact podcast. I began following her podcast, which explores ancient traditions and modern science. Recent episodes cover topics like the benefits of time outdoors, mindset issues such as analysis paralysis, and the additive approach to nutrition.
Darlene Marshall is a Holistic Wellness Coach and an expert in fitness, wellness, and well-being. She was named America’s Favorite Trainer by BurnAlong in 2021. Darlene has Masters in Applied Positive Psychology, certifications in Nutrition Coaching, NLP, Alignment Yoga, and training in various areas.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[3:00] Influence of positive psychology on coaching values and approach
[5:30] Shifting from a trainer to a holistic wellness coach
[7:44] Differences between applied positive psychology and traditional psychology
[11:42] Holistic wellness: definition and concept
[13:36] Emergent actualization and upward spiraling for resilience and performance
[22:46] Habit priming and the role of BDNF in neurological flexibility
[28:36] Helping those with negative mindsets and self-imposed limitations
[32:02] Max thanks Philip for helping him prioritize his health and dropping 45 Lbs
[32:48] Moving clients toward actualization
[35:37] Relationship between agency, empowerment, and co-dependence
[40:23] “Fake it till you make it” phenomenon and confidence-building
[41:05] Perspectives on the term “coach” and its appropriateness in fitness
[43:53] Leveraging emotions as information
[48:40] Balancing ancient traditions and modern science in wellness coaching
[52:50] Current trends, research, or developments in the fitness/wellness space
[56:19] Personal favorite episode or recurring theme in the Better Than Fine podcast
[1:00:38] The question Darlene wished Philip asked
[1:03:02] Where to find Darlene
[1:03:51] Outro
Episode resources:
Darlene's podcast: Better Than Fine
Instagram: @darlene.coach
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
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IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Darlene Marshall 00:00
So a lot of times what I'm trying to do is really look at, well, what is this thing that we think of as kind of Woo? Where is the science? underneath? The thing that most people think of as kind of Wuhan upward spirals is a perfect example. It sounds really hippie dippie. And in actuality, it's measurable effects.
Philip Pape 00:24
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. We are talking today with Darlene Marshall about the fascinating interplay between holistic wellness coaching and positive psychology and how it can help you unlock your full potential. We'll explore the concept of holistic wellness how emotions can be used as information and the power of upward spiraling for building resilience and enhancing performance. We'll dive into habit priming neurological flexibility, and the balance between ancient traditions and modern science. Darlene Marshall is a holistic wellness coach who has been working in the fitness and wellness space since 2012. She's an expert at the intersection of fitness, wellness and wellbeing, and was named America's favorite trainer by Bernal along in 2021. She hosts the better than find podcast make sure to follow make sure to subscribe better than fine and is certified with NASM in wellness coaching and personal training. I was personally introduced to Darlene through my friend and fellow podcaster Carl Berryman of inspired by impact, and then I started following her podcast better than fine. And she explores the interplay between ancient traditions and modern science. So topics on her recent episodes, things like the benefit of time outdoors, mindset topics like analysis, paralysis, and even the additive approach to nutrition. So check it out. She has a master's in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, and additional certifications in nutrition coaching, Neuro Linguistic Programming, 200 hour ytt and alignment yoga and training in sleep coaching, motivational interviewing, meditation, and mindfulness. You can find her on Instagram at Darlene dot coach or on her couch with her two cats. Darlene, I am truly excited to welcome you to the show. Hi, Philip,
Darlene Marshall 02:32
thank you so much for having me, I am excited to be here with you.
Philip Pape 02:35
Awesome. And I want to start right with that unique background you have we were talking about beforehand, which is holistic wellness coaching, but also this degree in applied positive psychology. And the combination really appeals to me, because behavior and psychology, they really seem to be at the heart of why people do or do not achieve the results they want. Or you know, put in place the wellness practices that that will serve them. So help me in the listener understand how your expertise in positive psychology has influenced your values in your approach as a coach, maybe it's even the foundation of your practice.
Darlene Marshall 03:09
I think it'd be hard for me to tease them apart at this point. But I you know, I came in the positive psychology space, primarily still working as a personal trainer. So I was teaching yoga and mindfulness meditation, working with my clients one on one, and entered the positive psychology space with every intention to primarily bring those tools back into a fitness context. And then the pandemic hit. And you know, obviously, things change for a lot of people. But part of my study, part of what I was really diving into was on positive, lasting behavior change. And really, the big shift for me came was in this big recognition of how people actually change effectively. And so much of the fitness paradigm is prescriptive, right, we're telling people what to do, when in actuality, a lasting behavior change comes from having an internal shift on your behavior. And that's where really the coaching paradigm can took over my practice. And of course, the other big lens shift was in the fitness space, I was trained that a lot of times you're looking for during the console like, okay, what are they doing wrong? What's their movement? And where are their faults in their movement patterns? Where are they like messing up and their nutrition. And that was the lever that you tried to angle right to sell your package. And that really was the paradigm I was trained in as a trainer. Whereas in a positive psychology lens, you're not looking at what's wrong with people, you're looking for what's right with people, and then how do we use that to help you get to where you want to go. And it was really this shift to focus on. I'm not going to tell my client in the console everything they're doing wrong anymore. I'm going to praise their positives. I'm going to Look for their strength, their resilience and their calling and purpose, which then gives them a reason to change from a positive lens. And so those are probably the biggest paradigm shifts that led me out of only working as a trainer and a fitness professional context. And now doing this much more holistic, hybrid kind of everything, everything in the kitchen sink except for career.
Philip Pape 05:26
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, at least it makes sense to me. But I do want to dig in a little bit. You said, you evolved from the training, which I never did training, like I came from the corporate world. I was a manager, a coach, people leader, I think a lot of those aspects resonate, like what you say resonates with me is like why people do what they do. And understanding that first is helpful. You went from a trainer to this other paradigm. I mean, was there a particular client that really helped you make that transition was it just bit by bit over time it happened? Well,
Darlene Marshall 05:57
even when I came into grad school, I was coming in having already gotten certifications in nutrition, sleep, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, NLP, motivational interviewing, like, pick your thing, I had the piece of paper, it was just missing the the positive psychology piece. And the clients I was working with at the time, I graduated in 2020. So I was finishing grad school in lockdown writing my master's thesis in lockdown, and all of my clients have gone remote. And obviously, we were all under this big pressure cooker of of a massive, not self imposed change. And a lot of the conversations we were having at the time were on resilience behaviors and burnout. And And so really, that suite of clients was a lot of the pivot for how do we build sustainable resilience that isn't a buzzword, but it actually is fostering the person that, you know, a decade from now, when you look back on this time, who do you want to have been? How can you create that person with intentionality? And really, that was a lot of the incubator for what I'm doing now.
Philip Pape 07:08
So isn't it amazing how the pandemic cause that for many of us and working from home, you started to have all this special training and special interventions and like, at risk and high risk for retention, at least again, from the corporate world, it's sounds very similar, where you started to focus on the individual well being but it was kind of given lip service in many contexts, or, you know, it's kind of this forced training. Yeah. And what you're saying is right, that, you know, we don't want it to be buzzword, you you dive down and really understood that. That's awesome. As a as a coach, and we can get into that what a coach is, because I know that's a whole thing. It's like, I know what you mean, when you're working with clients. And like, they asked you a question, I'm not going to find the answer in this book over here about nutrition, you know, there's this deeper thing going on that they need help with. So just just one more level deep on the field of applied positive psychology. The words are obvious, right, linguistically applied, something that you do versus theory and then positive as opposed to negative. Right. Sounds great. How does it differ from traditional psychology? And why should we care about that distinction?
Darlene Marshall 08:11
Yeah, so traditional psychology really focused on what's wrong with people, right. And in no fault to you know, the great grand Pooh Bahs of psychology, it really was because, you know, when you're looking at scientific disciplines, you got the hard sciences of things like chemistry, physics, mathematics. And so those early psychological practitioners wanted to be taken seriously. And at that time in that milieu, you know, we're talking mostly about European educated, affluent men, you weren't going to be taken seriously talking about love. Right? You were going to be taken seriously saying, we're going to solve the problems of the mind using a Western medical model, which was identify disease and correct it. And that's really traditional psychology. Yeah.
Philip Pape 08:57
I'm laughing because I'm just thinking like, just the classic man woman paradigm. You know, what I'm saying, like, my wife knows, I always try to fix problems and you know, and try to be more empathetic and not do that anyway, keep going. Well, and,
Darlene Marshall 09:13
and I'm not throwing shade at that, like, that's a well intentioned for any scientist, regardless of discipline that you identify a problem. You develop a hypothesis, you run experiments. But But where we ended up by the mid 20th century was okay, maybe we've got some, like, decent treatments for, you know, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, right, the dysfunctions in the mind. But I know this was my experience with therapy in my 20s. Okay, the absence of all of the bad stuff, I've mapped all the trauma, I've done all the cognitive behavioral therapy techniques, I can get myself to neutral gear, the absence of the bad stuffs not the same as the presence of the good stuff. So we took out all The stuff now the buckets empty. What do we put in the bucket? Positive Psychology is the focus on all the things that are good with people. So I don't refer to it as the science of happiness I refer to as the science of well being human well being. Because there's so much more to a well, well lived life. That's the phrase we're trying to get out there, there's so much more to a well lived life, then, soft Cody's here happiness, because happiness is a state just like sadness is a state, and happiness can come and go but purpose meaning calling love, you know, the ability to build a sustainable lifestyle that then supports me in actualizing on my purpose is so much richer. And that's really what positive psychology is about, when Martin Seligman who was considered to be the founder of the field, but he's not the only one. They all are affluent white guys, and also, to their credit have recognized the gap that that creates, and so we're trying to do better as a field. But Seligman, when UPenn, offered to start a positive psychology program, he insisted that it had to be an applied program, because you don't build wellbeing by thinking about it. And I always use the metaphor of the gym, you don't get stronger by thinking about lifting, you got to pick up the heavy stuff. You don't build wellbeing by thinking about, Oh, these are all the things I should be grateful for an effective gratitude practice, you're actually taking the time to pull up the emotional experience. And so just writing your three gratitude things is an exercise an obligation, not in cultivating an emotional state. So you have to do it for it to work. And that's where the applied piece really comes in. That's,
Philip Pape 11:40
that's great. So it's like the when we talk about holistic wellness, it sounds like positive psychology fits into the pie of psychology to give you holistic psychology, I guess, right, which is a piece of wellness. I mean, where does it? Where does it fit into wellness? Overall, if you were to make that into a big diagram or something?
Darlene Marshall 11:58
Yeah, it depends whose model we use. So my show is produced by NASM, the National Academy of Sports Medicine, I was one of the authors on their wellness coaching certification, and I'm very proud of it. They define it as mental physical and emotional betterment of life, as wellness as a whole. And then the tools of that being movement, nutrition, sleep, recovery, and regeneration and mental and emotional well being. I if we're going to make the pie metaphor, I would say positive psychology is the pan. If we include embodiment, as part of the modality and positive psychology obviously, I'm a body person. That's primarily how it works people. Positive psychology for a long time focused only on the mental experience. And fortunately, one of the evolutions in the space has been to include the fact that like, hey, we have a body and how you take care of it is going to directly impact state, and more and more we're seeing that play out in the world. So I'm grateful to see it all evolve.
Philip Pape 12:58
Yeah, we're not a disembodied brain. That actually sounds like a nightmare. But yes, not all of us. Yeah, that's funny, because that again resonates like the language I sometimes use was is this physical self mastery how like to exist and function in the world. It is a physical world. So I wouldn't everything integrate with that in some way even mentally, right. So all right, because sometimes people think of holistic in the fufu set sense of it, right? annotation, mindfulness, right, we will. For others, it's maybe the more definition, the literal definition of whole right, everything integrated approach. So I guess okay, I guess we talked about holistic wellness. So you mentioned actualization before. So we talked about the mind and positive psychology and applying all of these practices, and then actualization becoming more of I guess your aligned self is the way you've put it? Where do we go from there? So where do we take where do we take it and actually put it into practice? So well, I want
Darlene Marshall 13:55
to circle back to the UI Sure, go for it. Because I do think that that's an important piece. And where I settle on that, especially with a client is around belief. You don't have to believe what I believe in order for us to have a meaningful conversation around belief. But that's going to be an important mechanism when it comes to building your lifestyle. Because your value system your meaning making is all going to come out of however you think all this works. And you know, you mentioned like yoga and meditation is kind of like a woowoo thing. But when we look at even the mechanisms of the nervous system, and what something like meditation is doing in the nervous system, you don't have to believe in a higher power for that school skill set to be true. So there's Fortunately all of these layers that we're getting to examine now because we have the technology to look at things that 50 years ago, we're being poo pooed as nonsense. So it just it's a very exciting time to be a practitioner in the space. And then you could ask me another question that I honestly don't remember where you're
Philip Pape 14:59
from. Yeah, I wanted to get into like emergent actualization and upward spiraling you want to we can jump into that. So because what you, I had never heard that term before upward spiraling, right, yeah. Which is, again, linguistically the opposite of downward spiraling. It's these positive feedback loops, right? To reinforce things reinforced while being create momentum, build your resources and so on. So explain the concept. How will they help us be more resilient, perform better? And do it
Darlene Marshall 15:28
and how we can do care? Yeah, are you care and I love to just point out the differences between this and like, some of the woowoo like wellness nonsense, and I, I was allergic to the word wellness, I had no desire to be a wellness practitioner, when NASM approached me about contributing to their wellness coaching certification. It's essentially like, Hey, we're building the thing that you always wanted to exist, do you want to be a part of it? Oh, hey, you just have to Swallow this pill. And I was like, Okay, fine, Apollo wellness. But when we talk about upward spiraling, we're talking about integration, we're talking about actualization, we are talking about measurable effects in the human experience. And so upward spiral specifically, or when you take two or more phenomenon in someone's life, two or more interventions, or practices, whatever you want to call them. And they create a positive feedback loop that is building, whether we call it capacity, we call it resilience, you know, there's all these different ways that we can measure it. But we'll take for example, you know, a meditation practice, like a mindfulness practice and a positive emotional priming practice. So this would be something like you're doing morning meditation, and you're doing evening gratitude. And because of the morning meditation is increasing your mindfulness and the gratitude is affecting your default mode network construct in the brain, you start sleeping better, and your mood is improving. And now because you're sleeping better, and you're moving, improving, it's easier to meditate longer, your gratitude practices getting richer, so you're sleeping better your movies improving you feeling so much better, your relationships improve, now you're communicating better, because you have more self awareness. And, and, and, and there's, there's, you know, a doe today, I want to say there's two dozen documented upward spirals. But there's many theorize that we just haven't gotten the funding of the research to go out and measure yet yet being the operant. Where my work comes in what I wrote my master's thesis on was the way in which these upward spirals which have been measured in the short term, integrate with one another and creating compounding positive effects toward sustainable lifestyle change. Right? What does lifestyle transformation actually look like? And what I found in my work was when we take something like Maslow's peak experiences, right, these are your big touchstones, the birth of a child standing at the edge of the Grand Canyon and experiencing your own smallness. Going to space, right, the Overwatch effects is one of my favorite things. Resources is what happens to an astronaut go into space for the first time. And they have this profound feeling of awe and wholeness and oneness with all of humanity. And then they end up coming back and like starting nonprofits and doing doing like completely divergent work from where they were before, because of that profound tilt, transcendent experience. And when I talk about actualization when I talk about wellness for integration, and I'm talking about is the way in which our wellness practices or self development practices, leadership development, whatever work we're doing within ourselves is really looking for what's the next lesson, what's the next important skill set that I'm going to integrate into my lifestyle in a sustainable way, so that I can serve my purpose, my calling, whatever that is right now, and also recognize that I'm continuing to grow as a person. So oftentimes, when I have conversations that actualization people think it's like one thing, and it's never going to be one thing, because you are in an emergent experience of your life. And as that horizon continues to grow back, you're gonna have new and exciting experiences of actualization if you allow yourself to keep growing in that way. Okay, so that's the big kitten caboodle.
Philip Pape 19:25
Oh, no, you played it really well, because I've heard it talked about once or twice and, and kind of understood where you're going. But I always like to get very concrete for people, especially, you know, selfishly, how can I use this to help people in my practice as well. And I remember taking, actually a friend of mine, her name is Stephanie Caputo, and she and her husband have a company they, they do, there's something called navigating life and it had these three spider they call them spirals and they were overlapping and one was relationship. One was physical, and then one was another and I can't remember what it's the same concept of, you're not gonna you're not gonna improve everything at once and it's not a switch right? and pick the things that are, maybe you have strengths and pick the things that are the big go gets maybe and kind of work on those. And then as they improve, the other ones get brought up. So you mentioned 12, or you said two dozen, there's two dozen these, like there's actual things that are upward spirals, like. So give me an example of one specific one.
Darlene Marshall 20:19
So mood and self directed physical activity. So especially if you do it with other people, so choosing a physical activity that you enjoy, we know that within the next 24 hours, you're more likely to say good things happened. And you'll say more good things happened in 24 hours after you engage in some kind of physical activity. Well, because of that, like literal increased sensitivity to positive experience, we can now measure it when the initial tests, when the initial research were done on that effect, we couldn't measure it yet. Now we can measure that physical activity makes you more sensitive to your own serotonin through the endocannabinoid system. So okay, you're more sensitive to your own serotonin, you fill up my new friend or being nice to me, I'm gonna have a mood boost. Now because I'm in a better mood, I'm more likely to repeat it again tomorrow. Now I continue that positive effects of being like high on my own serotonin supply. That's an upward spiral dynamic, right? Because I'm in a better mood, I'm going to be looking for more opportunities to continue to grow and improve. There's upward spirals between meditation, mindfulness and relationships. They're, you know, I'm trying to pop them off the top of my head, I didn't have them ready. And to fall, I'm just thinking of like, okay, what are the upward spirals? I know, it's probably about two dozen. But that number might be wrong. I don't want to I don't want anybody to go hunt and be like she said, it was two dozen. And it's only 18. Like, yeah, no,
Philip Pape 21:53
I didn't mean that. What was interesting was that it was these concrete lists that we were starting to compile, which then of course, my brain goes to Okay, now, let me see that list. And then we can sort of work on on the checklist of things. Let
Darlene Marshall 22:06
me plug a few things in for you. The books are Barbara Fredrickson is the world's leading researcher on positive emotional experience. The the broaden and build theory of positive emotion is the foundational work that then put upward spirals grew out of her books are positive. Thing is positivity, wholeness. Yep. So positivity, and love 2.0. My master's thesis was on all of the stuff I'm talking about. So if you literally just search like UPenn, positive psychology, Darlene Marshall Capstone, it'll come up and download it and go nerd out super hard, along with all theories about how this stuff works,
Philip Pape 22:45
I'll tell you, your stuff is going to be in my stuff before long because this is this is this is really connected with me. And I think a lot of people listening to like, Oh, this is a big missing piece. And it's not that we don't do this, to some extent, not know what to call it, right? There is some of that, like, I see all the time with clients where one thing leads to another and all of a sudden, just everything in their life is a win, because these other things are now no longer giving them the stress or holding them back. And it's it's it's incredible to watch, right. But to be able to actually induce that, right. That's, that's where the power comes in. So yeah,
Darlene Marshall 23:19
that's what that work is about. And I'll just throw this out there. So the three things I start every client with in order to prime and I'm happy to unpack the science underneath each of these practices. In order to prime the effect is some kind of appreciation or gratitude practice every day, 20 minutes of moderate intensity cardiovascular exercise to increase their sensitivity to their own serotonin. And after I up regulate their brain derived neurotrophic factor, and a mindfulness practice some kind of meditation. So what I'm trying to prime there is not only their malleability to change, but also the positive emotional priming, because we know that someone in a positive emotional experience is more open to new information. They have neuro more neuro flexibility, they have greater self regulation, they're more likely to explore, they're more curious. Like there's all of these things that happen when someone's in a positive emotional state. Not that challenging. emotional states aren't useful, and they can be. But positive emotional states have a different effect in the brain and the nervous system that lend themselves toward the self work. So by getting clients to start with that flexibility, everything else that we want to come next, they're leveraged into the upward spiral effect.
Philip Pape 24:30
And are those three habits that you gradually build in the first few weeks? Is that the idea or do these are three things you do every day? Right off the bat?
Darlene Marshall 24:37
Most clients, this is the one place that I tend to be prescriptive, most clients if they're not already doing them, that's the firt that's a prescription that comes right out of the console like okay, you're going to work with me, I want you to do these things between now and our next meeting, so that they're more flexible.
Philip Pape 24:52
And here's just a little thought that popped in my head right. You know, we like to say people have personalities and some people are were positive and others optimistic than others. And, again, I will use that labeling myself and like feel like I've always been a positive, optimistic person who just brushes off things. And yet, when I look back at I know, it's because of my environment, there's the social psychology aspect to it. The opportunities I was given as a child, my family and so on. What do you think of that concept? And where I'm going with this is, is it? It's gotta be easier for some people to do this. Right? When you start with them, potentially? And how does that play into it? Or do we just is it pretty much the same? Same approach, no matter who you are, it just might be easier for some people.
Darlene Marshall 25:34
How technical you, I
Philip Pape 25:37
love tech, I love tech, the listener stays tuned. I'll see my apple sense later.
Darlene Marshall 25:42
So we're getting theoretical a little bit. We know that we all have a certain bandwidth of wellbeing and disposition towards, you know, thriving, right? Some people aren't yours. Some people are piglets, and some people are everywhere in between. optimism and pessimism, we think in the positive psychology space or not. personality traits are what we call explanatory style. It's the lens that you are looking through on the things that happen to you. So pessimists in that context, are looked at as when something goes wrong, is it they view it as permanent, pervasive and personal. So this sucks, it's always gonna suck. It's because everything sucks, and it's because I suck. Whereas the optimistic explanatory style looks at it like, Okay, this sucks, but not everything sucks. It won't always suck and stuff happens to people. It's not anything wrong with me. And so think about optimism pessimism in the positive psychology space, it's less about like that bandwidth I'm talking about that we all kind of have. Now on the upward spiral side, when we're talking like you said, some people this stuff is easier for it's more accessible. The theory is that the way that upward spirals work, is, you have something called Vantage sensitivity, how much sensitivity Do you have that you can take advantage when the good stuff happens? Right? The same thing happens to the piglet and er, er is going oh, and piglets like whatever. Right? So your vantage sensitivity is directly related to something called Vantage resources. Do you have the mindset, the emotional social support your foundational needs met all of the factors that go into a lifestyle that support you to take that what we call a capitalization opportunity, can you take advantage of the good thing emotionally and come in neuro chemically? Now, like you said, we don't necessarily know why some people are more of a piglet than an ER. But we also know that if we teach the ER certain skills, give them access to whether we're talking about relationships, support or community organizations, you know, psychological skills, reframing techniques, get them moving their bodies, you know, there's all these things that we can do for the ER, that increases their vantage sensitivity. Now, do they end up in the same place as piglet? Not all of us, but expecting them to is also toxically? Positive? And really from my lens as a coach, it's what is what is er want for me? Or if yours okay with who they are? I don't force it onto them like a moral obligation. But if they want my help, I'm here to do it. Fair
Philip Pape 28:34
enough. Yeah, right. That relative change? You're right. Yeah, this is great. This is good stuff. I think this is awesome. Definitely. Wow. Okay. I'm taking a ton of notes, because this is this is. This is I'm down. So you talked about the habit priming. And I don't know if we already addressed this. But you said you talked about Barbara Fredrickson, I think you mentioned the FR. Fr. fMRI studies on one of your other shows how that show how the positive emotions affect the body differently than negative emotions, right? Neurological flexibility, broaden and build. So how does that pathway work and contribute toward the upward spiral?
Darlene Marshall 29:06
Yeah, so there's actually the foundation for upward spirals. And so the deal if we take it to from an evolutionary psychology approach, we all have something called negativity bias. And it's because our ancestors were the ones who when a threat presented itself, they were looking out for that threat, and then they never forgot it. And the ones who are kind of like, oh, whatever, weren't likely to survive and reproduce, because they were more likely to be susceptible to repeated threat. So from an evolutionary psychology standpoint, that negativity bias, we're more likely to think about all the negative stuff but negative emotions narrow our focus, right. And that's, that is also an evolutionary benefit. Right? The Tiger comes over the hill and we all have to be ready to respond. The problem Because now we're not living in that world, because that kind of challenging emotional response is very intensively stressful to the nervous system and therefore the entire body, right your autonomic nervous system, your vagus nerve, it is enervating all of your autonomic nervous system function. So everything automatic that we don't have control of so blood sugar and hormones and heart rate. And I think blood pressure, I didn't say that one yet. It kind of everything else in between. And so that upregulated stress condition is not that great for us. It narrows our focus, we're looking for threats, the flip side of that positive emotional experience, our pupils constrict, so that we are not so alert to threat, our blood pressure comes down, resting heart rate relaxes, you know, there's all of these physiological changes. But on the psych side, you have less subconscious biases, you're more curious, you're more creative, you're better problem solver, you're more likely to explore your environment, it's easier to make friends, it's easier to learn new material, because in times of calm, that's when we would be bonding, that's when we would be exploring, that's when you would be learning new skills, you're not going to learn new skills with the tire coming over the hill. But we're going to you know, you're going to teach me cool stuff, when we're all just hanging out. And so that also has a significant reparative function to the nervous system and the tissues of the body. Because now all of those baseline processes that happen when you're in your parasympathetic, your calm state of your nervous system are kicking in when you feel the positive emotional experiences. So that is the broaden right? I'm broadening my cognition build is learning skills and resources. Broaden and build theory is the foundation for upward spiraling.
Philip Pape 31:53
Okay. Love it. Yeah. So that, and that was a spiraling effect you just talked about with the positive experiences causing you relax, making you more creative and one thing leads to another.
32:04
Shout out to Philippe an awfully for a long time and know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. But most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet links from body is what you're looking for. Really paid Easter guy
Philip Pape 32:48
to be a little negative here. What if you take somebody who's on the opposite extreme, who's really struggling with a lot of things and very negative about themselves and making excuses things are holding themselves back. And there's reasons for these right in people's lives. Usually they might be overwhelmed. They're busy with life, they family, kids career, whatever. Or they've tried a lot of things that and they think they're they're applying themselves over the years. And then those things don't work, right, which is just reinforces this. So where would you start that conversation or the process to move them toward that actualization, I guess is the word.
Darlene Marshall 33:21
Yeah. So the first thing I always like to throw out in a conversation like that is the recognition that a coach, a positive psychology practitioner, a personal trainer, we are not clinicians. And very often when we are working with someone in a state like that, they may have untreated mental health considerations. And making sure and I am very direct with my clients about scope of practice. And the recognition that one, if we bump up the edge of the scope, and I'm worried about you, I'm going to tell you that you need to go to therapy or or I'm not going to continue working with you. Or they're already working with a therapist, and I make sure the therapist knows that I exist. And I respect them and all that. And so there's that piece of so often, the struggle bus and the overwork and the hyper productivity is reactive to some kind of unprocessed trauma or mental health consideration. Right? Why? Why would we want to create a life that burns us out? Right? So it starts there from my perspective. Now, if you've got somebody who's already working with a therapist, and then we enter that conversation, and they're on the struggle bus, and they feel overwhelmed, and they feel overstimulated and it in it in it in it always comes back to what is it that matters most to you, my client? What is your purpose, meaning calling? Why are you here? Why work with me now? And if they can give me that information, I can help them make better choices about who they want to be when they grow up, because they're working with me for a reason.
Philip Pape 35:00
Ain't they reached out to you? They took that step. Yes. Right. So
Darlene Marshall 35:02
they want change, there has to be some vision of something else they want, or they would not have reached out. Or if they reach out and there's nothing there, they wouldn't have gotten past the console. So they're going to be feeding me. What is it that you're here to do? What is it that you want for you? What is the example you want to set for your kids? What is the change you're trying to make in the world? What is your leadership, your mission? And anything else? To me, all of the lifestyle stuff is in service of that for it not to you know, just be narcissism.
Philip Pape 35:36
Fair enough. Okay. So then where did he so then we're talking a little bit also about ideas like agency empowerment, right, taking control of your life and so on, where do these concepts comport with those? Which are the opposite of codependence right? And I know we're talking we talked about coaching and training and all that we don't want that we don't want to codependent relationship, what what you're talking about here? So maybe explore that a little bit. Darlene? Yeah, sure. I
Darlene Marshall 36:01
think you know, what you're talking about is the difference in codependence and interdependence, right. And I'm a strong believer that in effective lifestyle practitioner should not be trying to like Bootstrap some codependence in the client, which is not what I was taught as a trainer I was taught, it's always easier to keep a client than get a client. And so you try to keep the clients forever. And the people who stay with clients forever are the most effective people. And really, I'm like, if after three years of working with me, you can't work out on your own, I am not good at my job. Yep. Because my job is to empower you with information. Now, if we find that that same person just knows that this is the right thing to do, and they cannot find truly authentic internal motivation. Okay, then let's create accountability structures. And that's different than I'm trying to trick you into renewal, which is, again, what I was taught as a trainer. And the reason is that if I'm truly helping someone, like walk the path to their authentic self actualize on their purpose and meaning and calling, they won't need me after a certain point, because they'll have learned everything that they were meant to learn. And then they're gonna go, you know, with whatever their belief system is. And if not, there's some other resistance there. And I just wasn't like the magic practitioner. And that's okay. Right. Not everything works for everyone all the time is one of the most important things I've tried to put out there. If any practitioner tells you they have the perfect answer, just do my do my five point system, system and reset system run, because not everything works for everyone all the time. And no, one practitioner has all of the answers for everyone. And if they think they do, they're actually just a narcissist.
Philip Pape 37:52
Yes. And and did that happen? So can you recall a time where that happened to you? Where perhaps at the end of it all, you realize that you couldn't be the magic practitioner? And yeah, maybe learn from it? And oh, yeah, of course. Of course. Yep.
Darlene Marshall 38:06
Of course. I mean, it's happened. How I don't know how many?
Philip Pape 38:12
Oh, god. No, no, no, I guess you learn something from working with every client?
Darlene Marshall 38:16
Oh, sure. Yeah, but specifically, the failures like, you know, if you've, if you've got a big coaching audience, I'm happy to talk about accepting and learning from and then moving on from the failures. And, you know, I, I know a thing or three about helping people. And there have unquestionably been clients that I sit down with my notebook, and I look back at and I go, Okay, what did I get wrong? And without the sense of ownership, that it was my, you know, it's my work, it's their work. But maybe it's the recognition that you know, what, I should never have accepted that renewal. I knew that we were on the wrong path. They asked to stay and I let them stay. And I never should have accepted that renewal. I should have heard them out. Or I knew six months before that, that I didn't want to be doing that kind of work anymore. And I you know, it was the pandemic and I wasn't worried. Yeah, no. And so I did it, but I wasn't aligned. And every time there has been a part of me that knew that we were not, we weren't it. But I kept pushing, because I tried to convince myself and I think one of the big lessons for me and one of the big lessons for every client is that there is a voice inside of you that you know, is your authentic voice. There are things about yourself that you know to be true, if you are honest with yourself. And when that voice says you shouldn't be doing this anymore. Listen to it. It's not a failure is just the next step.
Philip Pape 39:50
Yeah, and I think that even applies to the other side, right? If you're listening and thinking I'm working with someone and you your job to interview them right and hold them accountable to it. You want and make sure you ask them the questions that that set would set off any red flags for you. And if don't try to force the coach into doing what maybe isn't their thing for you. And vice versa, right? That's yeah, that's makes me as well, because I definitely can think of some clients that I should never have taken on. You know, when you're like, well, they're super eager. So we'll work it out. Cool. So a couple other other topics I want to dive into. What are your thoughts about the fake it till you make it phenomenon? Right, the idea of, I guess, manufacturing confidence to push through an obstacle come out the other side, and then incrementally build your natural confidence.
Darlene Marshall 40:41
Oh, you know, it's funny, I thought when you were saying fake it till you make it that you were referencing something else?
Philip Pape 40:46
That's okay. That's okay. So yeah, well, I
Darlene Marshall 40:50
just, you know, there's there's a lot of people out on the interwebs, who use the word coach that aren't paying this coaches, let's get into that qualify. Yeah, we can play this game. Which direction?
Philip Pape 41:03
Yeah, well, just just, let's just be real about it. Right. So the word coach has a definition. Let's define that. Let's define what not what is not a coach. But also the idea that people who are not coaches, let's make them aware of that, and how they can become better coaches in the context of what you're talking about here. So that's a positive way to approach it. Yeah, let's
Darlene Marshall 41:24
look at so you know, let's recognize there's two uses of the word coach, right. There's like, my nephew's basketball team. And his coach, that's a coach, great, there's coaches and all levels of sport. And the rest of us out here using the word coach are talking about individuals who are educated in the skill set of holding space, asking good questions, making an informative, you know, paradigm with their clients, or giving them good information, and then empowering the client to make good decisions for their own progress towards their own self directed goals. A coach is not being prescriptive, right, a coach will give information, and then they get out of the way. They might give guidance, they might give a particular shape. But that's what coaching really is, you know, working through ambivalence working through resistance, helping people get unstuck, but not by saying, this is exactly what you do, right? That prescriptive model. If that's not what you're doing, you're not coaching, and no shade on other modalities of change. But that's not coaching. It's something else. And so I mentioned, I come from the fitness industry, like personal training is not coaching, and even working within the corporate setting I was in, you'd get to a certain level, and they'd start calling you a coach, because they want to charge more money for your work, but you're still making a prescription with everything you're doing. You're you're telling them what to do. So it wasn't coaching, it was training. And I see a lot of trainers out in the world who you get a certain amount of certifications, and you want to distinguish yourself from other newer trainers. And so you start using the label coach, the problem is it creates a ton of confusion in the market, people end up not understanding the difference. And then they pay for something thinking they're gonna get one thing and they get the other and then they're upset. And so I I have fallen into this pit, I have clients, I have referred to someone because I thought they were coaching and then they turned it out making prescriptions. And that's not what I wanted for that client, and ended it in. And so it is a pet peeve of mine, I'll own but I'm attached to it. Just it just grinds my gears.
Philip Pape 43:52
Yeah, no, let's No, let's play devil's advocate, because earlier you mentioned you there is something you prescribe and that is those three habits. And then less than two weeks. Yeah, yeah, no, and that's okay. But that's context. And there's also my interpretation of what you're saying a little bit is, is meeting the individual and understanding what they want. They're asking for something, then then you can guide them. But you do have to give them information and giving information. So for example, if if someone very simply just wants a nutrition plan, right, not not a meal plan, but just they want to understand how do I go from here to here? Lose Fat, right? Just a very simple practical thing. And you have to give him that calorie deficit to do that. So is providing guidelines for how to do that and targets prescriptive and not coaching even though you're coaching them on how to stick to that and how to do all the things to get there.
Darlene Marshall 44:45
In my opinion, yes, because it as somebody who's been a nutrition coach for 10 years. Additive nutrition coaching is not a prescriptive protocol, but There are also times that someone's working toward an outcome that requires a prescriptive protocol. Right, I got friends who are competitive fighters and bodybuilders and rugby players, and you know, you got to make weight. So if you got to make weight, you need a prescription. That's when you need a really effective expert practitioner, who is a trainer or nutritionist specialized in those ways. But that's not coaching a process that's prescribing a paradigm. And again, I'm not demonizing doing that. I'm just saying like, can we use the word for the thing? We mean?
Philip Pape 45:33
Yeah, I'm trying to understand where there's like a hybrid in there, which kind of seems like there's a, you know, are you doing
Darlene Marshall 45:39
out there? Right? Yeah, I do do both. Many of my clients are hybrid clients, where I'm like, Okay, we got two hats here. And you when do we get to your movement, if what you want is prescriptive movement protocol, because, you know, your movement screening is showing significant dysfunction. I used to do these, and they, but they consent to it. Right? I am transparent with them about the difference between coaching and training. And when they say, Yeah, that would be amazing. Could you train me, and then I'm writing their exercise protocol. So that we get that specific outcome, that's when prescriptive is appropriate. But it's also not coaching. That's a hybrid coach trainer model. And that is how I run my business.
Philip Pape 46:19
Love that. Yeah. And you made me think about a book that I wish I could remember the name of it, it's about asking for feedback. I don't know if you've heard this book before. And it distinguishes the, like three types of feedback that you want from someone that the important, the important thing is do you need to ask for the feedback you want, don't rely on somebody else to guess it what you need. And coach coaching is one of those. And but there were like two other types. And it kind of sounds like a similar categorization as you're giving me here. It's interesting. Yeah, I was reflecting on that ever since Carl brought it up as well, that I know some of my clients where we have a prescription for, say, macros, but then they they learn the process and can do it themselves. After a while we don't even talk about it anymore. And I'm like, that's, that's an interesting, you know, it's kind of like one shifting into another. And then meanwhile, all these other things, having nothing to do with the prescription seems to be where people get hung up the behavioral stuff, the change the whatever, you know, so it's just, it's fascinating philosophically. Yeah.
Darlene Marshall 47:18
And yeah, like, I think you're leading into what I want to say is like, this is my opinion, right? Like, it's, it's all made up by people anyway, right? We're just we're making up words and slapping them on the stuff. It's all a construct that we invented, and we get to evolve and change. And my argument is just like, hey, wouldn't it be better if we were being specific about the thing that we say we're doing and like, not just everybody is suddenly a coach, even though you have no education in facilitating meaningful behavior change. And the flip of that is coming from the fitness space, a lot of fitness industry, education and behavior change is just outdated and wrong. And so then you're working off of paradigms that aren't effective, calling yourself a coach. So that's that's my argument.
Philip Pape 48:05
No, I love it. And there's a transparency element and there's a you know, the trying to make money off of these things and these labels and certs and Pathak, you know, credentials you have behind your name. And it's not like we could all just stop people from being hucksters. That's like humanity's always kind of been like that. But those of us who want to do better and learn and hopefully you're listening to this podcast into your stuff, can at least start to describe it more precisely. And as we have our sales calls, or our discovery calls or talk on our podcast, it's like, make a distinction between those. So I will be doing more now after learning this from you. So there you go. He made an impact. Okay, so what else do we want to cover? Oh, your podcast, your podcast, I like the premise right of of examining ancient traditions and modern science. And it kind of strikes me as it's like the parallels between evidence based science and anecdotal experience or common sense. Like what you discussed, I think, on your episode, and additive nutrition was what I was referring to, how do you balance those perspectives? So separating like the fringe ideas of from ancient traditions, and maybe I'm using the word fringe in a loaded way that might actually work things that work but aren't really considered evidence based? Because they're rooted in ancient traditions? Yeah, well, I
Darlene Marshall 49:25
think, you know, first off, like, let's just layer on, there's so much appropriation in the wellness space, right, like, there's a lot and as a middle aged white woman, I gotta own, you know, respect for whatever culture or lineage we might be using as inspiration or influence in a particular practice. Obviously, alignment yoga, it's an ion guard derivative, you know, that is a big base of my entry into these alternative ways of thinking that we're now just really starting to measure and understand and more and more nuanced ways. And meditation is such a perfect example, where within our lifetime and making some assumptions about your age, within our lifetime, it's really gone from this like esoteric, woowoo thing to totally mainstream with a ton of research. And we can we can thank the Dalai Lama. And we can thank Jon Kabat Zinn, and you know, all of the hippies for having brought those practices back, and then we examine them. And so a lot of times, what I'm trying to do is really look at, well, what is this thing that we think of as kind of Woo? Where is the science underneath the thing that most people think of as kind of Wuhan upward spirals is a perfect example. It sounds really hippie dippie. And in actuality, it's a measurable effects. And in terms of, you know, like the additive nutrition thing, really, that comes out of the recognition that people get a lot more nutritional traction, they make more progress longer and sustain it longer. I said that all in the wrong order. When you focus more on putting in the good stuff, instead of removing all the things that have been demonized, and it's really that simple. And so when I first start the nutrition conversation with my clients, I don't give them a list of all the foods they're going to avoid that is useless. And their next birthday party or the weekend, heck, I got a client right now who the her doctor gave her a single printout sheet of her new diet, and no support in actualizing on it. And she said to me, she's like, I'm not starting this till Monday. Sunday is Mother's Day, and my birthday is this week, like, why would I do this? I'm like, great. Can I just get you to eat more protein, please? Yeah.
Philip Pape 51:45
Oh, yeah.
Darlene Marshall 51:48
So specifically, from the additive nutrition piece, it's just how do we apply what we know about behavior change and the human experience. And what we know is that people are not getting enough of the right things in the right ways. Yet, we're all just talking about how evil sugar is all the time. And the more you demonize like it's the pink elephant thing, right? When I was trying to quit smoking, and I just kept thinking about how badly I wanted a cigarette, that was totally different than when I filled my life up with enough positive things that I no longer needed the stress relief of the cigarette, right? This is going back 15 years,
Philip Pape 52:23
ya know, for sure. And there's there's a parallel there between positive versus negative or positive or traditional psychology as well. And I'm seeing these constant themes of focusing on the positive, whatever we mean by that. And the idea and I use that same analogy with the protein of when you just when you try to get enough protein, it starts to crowd other things out, you just can't help it right. And when you go to the grocery store and look for protein, you end up being on the outside of the store, because that's where all the protein is, you know, so I hear what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, dig, I dig it, too. It's pretty cool. And the fringe i The these, what we think are fringe ideas or hippie dippie, or whatever, when you could actually validate them with science and show how they work. There was a guy on my podcast, it hasn't come out yet. What's his name? Christopher. I can't forget his last name. But he taught he basically is Eastern medicine, traditional medicine and like meridians and some of that, and I have my skepticism meter. So hi. Let's talk about it. I was even asked about it. But ya know, and the way he described I'm thinking, well, there's something there with the nervous system and, and muscles and everything else. Lines. Yeah, and go Yeah, exactly. Like does so
Darlene Marshall 53:31
many of the main meridians track with what we now understand to the fossil lungs. And in 2018, Dr. Neil Thiess, published his research showing that fascia is actually an Oregon and the interstitium. And so the, you know, along the interstitium, things like vibration and sound and light travel further than other connective tissue structures, called the physics of it, okay, right. So we're just starting to measure what the intersted GM can do in a way that allopathic medicine, Western medicine can quantify. And part of what made makes northeast brilliant as a practitioner, his book notes on complexity comes out this week is he's also a Zen Buddhist, in addition to being one of the world's leading liver pathologist. And so he's bringing that influence into trying to show Western medicine that there's a much bigger scope than we are necessarily taking into account. But like the meridian lines, follow interstitium main, like main lines, and I guarantee you in our lifetime, we're going to have better ways to measure what that's really on about. And I could go on and on about like prana versus chi versus your mitochondria. And essentially this idea that these these traditions that are so much older than In Western paradigms, were using their vernaculars to try to explain something that they could observe. But they didn't yet have the technology to measure. And add to that our most advanced physicists understand that we can measure about 5% of the phenomena in the universe. Right?
Philip Pape 55:24
That's where it's good. That's what that's true. We know very little so right? Yeah.
Darlene Marshall 55:28
If we can only measure 5% of the observable universe as we experience it, there's all kinds of stuff that we don't know. And what I do when it comes to application with my clients, the placebo effect is still in effect. I don't care if that's placebo, I care. Did it make you more better? And did it move you towards the thing that you wanted to work? Yeah, who cares? If it's placebo?
Philip Pape 55:53
I agree. I agree. There's a lot of things like that. We just do them. They work and we don't understand them. And that's okay. Exactly. That's okay. Women's Health, I don't even want to get into it. I'm just saying I'm thinking of a lot of parallels with women's health and what we don't know, the gaslighting and everything goes on because I have women in my life and clients that have dealt with that. It's just terrible. But, but there's there's hope, when you talk about, you know, uncovering some of the mysteries as we go along. Okay, so do you have a couple more minutes? Sure. Let's go. Okay. I wanted to ask what your favorite personal episode of your podcast is just to help you like plug it a little. But also, I want to understand what your favorite theme or episode is. Your you just asked
Darlene Marshall 56:33
me to pick my favorite toe, like,
Philip Pape 56:36
oh, pick one or a theme? That was part two, or a theme that you like,
Darlene Marshall 56:41
I can't tell you my favorite episode here.
Philip Pape 56:43
I couldn't either. So
Darlene Marshall 56:44
your favorite eyelash, like it's a tough? How would I will because it's such an extension of myself conception and when it comes to being like Hotelling. Um, you know, I think the cool thing about the show is how much it's evolved. So I started the show originally in February of 2020. When NASM invited me onto their podcast network, we had to do a reboot, because I had been cursing in all previous episodes, and they didn't want me to swear on the network. Okay, fine. I'll take
Philip Pape 57:12
a lot of pressure right there for you. Right.
Darlene Marshall 57:15
Actually, I originally the plan was to have you seen the good place? Yeah. The plan was to like, yeah, to like the way they do cursing on the good place. Yeah, weird words that had the same leading letter. So that was originally my plan. I was like, no that. But it would make it too obvious. So anyway, so we had to do a reboot on the show. It's now been on their network for a year. So we're just had our 50th episode on the network. But originally, it was really going to be like, say, ancient wisdom, modern science through a well being lens, the fitness industry and all that and of the pandemic kit. And so the first two years of the show were really focused on, like, what is the emergent thing that we're all experiencing right now? And how could I give you tools to help with it? And then as we came out of the pandemic, and now we're moving into, who are we now? How do we take these major forces of the human experience like species level challenges, learn from them integrate and step forward? And this recognition that as millennials, you know, young Gen X, millennials, like we're the adults in the room, now, we get a say, so if we're the adults in the room, what are we going to do with it? And how do we do it in a holistic, positive additive way, in a world that has a lot of challenges? And so how do we dismantle some of the toxic stuff that we've been given? Obviously, the fitness and wellness spaces have a lot of that. And so one of the things that we're doing right now, is a series with one of the program directors at NASM. So he runs the teams that are pulling together the new courses, they're they're kind of cultivating the educational materials that NASM produces. Well, he's been on the show this, so he's about to come in again next month. So we're getting a clip of like, every six weeks or so he comes on the show, and he's done a full deep dive literature review into a topic that's controversial in the fitness industry. And we talk about why the conventional wisdom is wrong. So we just did that is in public health. Next. The next one we're going to do is on BMI. We did want to January on why is dieting actually bad? Why is everything you think you know, I mean, even in this conversation, Philip, you mentioned caloric restriction and changing body composition. What most people think that means is actually detrimental to their long term well being and doesn't actually work. But we've been taught to think it does. So that whole episode is him going through all the scientific evidence and us talking through it in a way that would empower For the listener to make better choices. Cool. So yeah, the show's evolved a lot. And it's been really fun to do that.
Philip Pape 1:00:07
Yeah. I love that that you answered the question that way telling us the whole story of how it's changed because my podcast is only a year or what is it a year and a half. And even in that short time, it's just amazing how things go. And the skepticism, you know, my mission is also to kind of put the skeptical lens on, and you're ramping it up for me here, which I love. Like, it's really challenging. It made me think you also probably guess my age when you said, Gen X millennial, so you got it, right.
Darlene Marshall 1:00:33
I was assuming, at this age,
Philip Pape 1:00:35
I was born in 1980. So try writing three,
Darlene Marshall 1:00:37
this is my 40 year.
Philip Pape 1:00:40
Oh, congrats, I guess. And then take each species level challenges and learn, but I love the ambition. And it's great. This is awesome. Good stuff. So second, the last question I asked all guests, Darlene and that is one question. Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?
Darlene Marshall 1:00:57
You know, I tried to I have my answer for this. And you actually ended up asking. I love when that happens. Okay, so I've got a new one. I think one of the most important conversations we need to be having as a species as especially in the technologically advanced countries, is about loneliness. We are experiencing a loneliness epidemic, that we are only just beginning to understand the ramifications of the mental health crisis that we are having. But a lot of it is due to the lack of feeling authentic connection and compassion and open heartedness to one another. And it sounds really Woo. Except there is very hard science on this, I did do an episode on loneliness in the middle of the winter. And I encourage if you're going to listen anything, go back and listen to that one. Because the physical, emotional and mental health ramifications of loneliness are profound. It is more impactful than diabetes and smoking. But we shrug it off like it's Nbd. And there was a there was a very cute study that came out earlier this year that showed that what reaching out to your friends that you haven't talked to in a long time, you anticipate that they're not going to care and actuality they get this huge boost. So if you take one thing away from me, to our listeners, go tech, somebody you haven't talked to in six months, they need to hear from you. Because we all need each other really desperately right now. Not only for our short term well being but there's no way we're going to solve the problems that we're all facing alone, we got to do it together, which means we have to figure this loneliness thing out.
Philip Pape 1:02:45
So if you're listening, think about that person, go through your history, go through your contacts, find at least one maybe three people that you haven't talked to in a long time. Say hi, yeah, there you go. And send them a funny meme or something else. Go for it emojis. All right. Cool. So definitely, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? They have if they don't know already? Yeah, so
Darlene Marshall 1:03:08
obviously, the show is better than fine. I've got a substack costar dot sub sect.com, which is all just almost all of its application articles. It's like whatever that thing. Is it your Yeah, more the subsets called more better. shows better, the fine, more better. And then Instagram. I'm Darlene doc, coach. My website is Darlene doc coach. I like to keep it all neat.
Philip Pape 1:03:32
Yeah. All about branding. All right. So this has been a lot of fun, Donnelly. Really, I'm super excited. I'm glad Carl recommended you. So I want to give him a shout out for that. I found you and your content and the whole just everything. It's so refreshing and resonates and I think the listeners gonna get a ton of value from this episode. So thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you very
Darlene Marshall 1:03:53
much for having me.
Philip Pape 1:03:57
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 80: Flexible Dieting, Evidence-Based Nutrition, and Protein Strategies with Alan Aragon
Today we are diving into flexible dieting and evidence-based fitness with nutrition researcher and educator Alan Aragon. You'll learn about the importance of evidence-based practice for the average person looking to improve their health, rigid vs. flexible dietary control, and the practical side of nutrition, such as protein sources, distribution strategies, and anabolic resistance. He addresses behavior change, food tracking, intermittent fasting, and research gaps in nutrition and fitness.
Today we are diving into flexible dieting and evidence-based fitness with nutrition researcher and educator Alan Aragon. You'll learn about the importance of evidence-based practice for the average person looking to improve their health, rigid vs. flexible dietary control, and the practical side of nutrition, such as protein sources, distribution strategies, and anabolic resistance. He addresses behavior change, food tracking, intermittent fasting, and research gaps in nutrition and fitness.
Alan is a leading advocate for evidence-based information in the fitness industry, with over 30 years of experience. He writes a monthly Research Review, publishing cutting-edge information in popular magazines and scientific literature. Alan co-authored the most-viewed article in JISSN and led the development of the ISSN Position Stand on Diets & Body Composition. He also designs programs for athletes and individuals seeking optimal health.
Alan's book, Flexible Dieting, transformed my perspective on food, coaching, and evidence-based practice. I'm thrilled to have him on the show.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:36] His purpose and journey in evidence-based fitness and flexible dieting
[8:33] Importance of evidence-based practice for the average person
[13:18] Selecting and evaluating studies for the monthly research review
[19:45] Rigid vs. flexible dietary control and sustainable results
[28:05] The spectrum of diet control: Intuitive eating and its impact on goals
[30:11] Addressing behavioral challenges in the context of flexible dieting
[31:32] Stephanie shares her experience with her one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[35:35] Incorporating treats and indulgences sustainably
[40:25] Best protein sources and distribution for muscle building and recovery
[42:42] Muscle anabolic resistance in older adults and its implications
[46:26] Ideal protein source split for overall health
[48:16] Protein/carb distribution and carb cycling during a fat loss phase
[55:12] The question Alan wanted Philip to ask
[1:00:24] How to reach out to Alan
[1:00:57] Outro
Episode resources:
Alan's website: www.alanaragon.com
Instagram: @thealanaragon
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https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
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Email: philip@witsandweights.com
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Transcript
Alan Aragon 00:00
If nothing else, flexible dieting is a way to individualize the dietary variables to suit the individual's personal preference, personal tolerances and and goals.
Philip Pape 00:14
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip Pape. In this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we're diving into flexible dieting and evidence based fitness with nutrition researcher and educator Alan Aragon, you'll learn about the importance of evidence based practice for the average person looking to improve their health, rigid versus flexible dietary control and the practical side of nutrition such as protein sources and distribution strategies and anabolic resistance. We'll tackle common challenges people face related to behavior change and tracking food, as well as nonlinear dieting, such as intermittent fasting. Finally, we'll touch on the latest findings and research gaps in nutrition and fitness. Alan Aragon is a nutrition researcher and educator with over 30 years of success in the field. He is one of the most influential figures in the fitness industries movement toward evidence based information. Alan also writes a monthly research review with cutting edge theoretical practical information. His work has been published everywhere. It's been published in popular magazines in the peer reviewed scientific literature. He co authored nutrient timing revisited the most viewed article in the history of the Journal of the International Society of sports nutrition, and is the lead author of the ISSN position stand on diets and body composition. Alan maintains a private practice designing programs for recreational and professional athletes. And of course, regular people like you and me and him striving to be their best. Finally, Alan is the author of one of my newer favorite books, flexible dieting, a science based reality tested method for achieving and maintaining your optimal physique performance and health. His work has personally impacted the way I look at my relationship with food, my coaching practice and the meaning of evidence based practice, which is why I was thrilled that he accepted my invitation to come on the show. So Alan, welcome to the podcast.
Alan Aragon 02:30
Philip, thank you so much for having me here. It's so great to be here. And it's such a privilege.
Philip Pape 02:35
Yeah, man, you I mean, so you, you are a pioneer of this space. And I've heard you talk about the various stories behind flexible dieting, and If It Fits Your Macros, and the forums and all that, and you've seen this industry go from, from where it was two, three decades ago to where it is now, with social media and everything else. And the fact that health is probably one of the most in demand things that people are trying to work on. You have a lot of great information out there. And then you have a lot of misinformation. What drove you to jump into this field early on? What keeps you going? And then what is your purpose in life now after all of this experience in three decades in the field?
Alan Aragon 03:13
Okay, so what got me in to the field was, I just thought that personal training was a cool thing. You basically you got to have a reason to work out and be fit and be be jacked, or at least try to, and kind of give you a purpose for that. And if you can tie a livelihood to working out, which is something that I really loved in my late teens, early 20s, then it just seemed ideal personal training just seemed ideal. And then once you dive into it, and once you do the work, you see that it's hard work. It's a multifaceted, and frankly, an exhausting job. And, and I also found out what my strengths were, and what my you know what my limitations were. And it just turns out that I was good at teaching, I was good at communicating. And I was much better at sitting around than I was at actually, you know, doing the physical work of training. And so, but yeah, I did, I did training for a good decade, full time training. And I think that once you hit the 10 year point with something that you enjoy enough, then you want to teach people how to do it. And so I hit a point where I wanted to be able to teach people how to train. I went into the avenue of nutrition just because I had to pick a major basically, I wasn't a very well pre planned person. Back in the day. I just I really didn't know what to positively and absolutely do with my life like some people do when in their late teens, early 20s, that wasn't me, I was like, hey, you know, I like fitness and there's nothing really out there. Maybe I can be a trainer, but nobody really knows what the heck that is. And but I'm gonna do it anyway, because I enjoy kind of being different. So I went the nutrition path, and then a decade went by, and then I went the research path for another decade. And then at the end of each of these decades, you're like, you know, that would really cool to be really cool to teach people how to accomplish these things. And, and so here I am at the end of three decades. And what kept me going throughout all of that was just pursuing what interested me. So when personal training, interested me less than nutritional counseling, I pursued nutritional counseling. And when the research and education aspect of things really interested me, I just pursued that. So I tried to make it a point of making sure that I really love what I'm doing. And I go in the direction of basically following my heart, these, you know, these things. And so the the final part of your question about looking back on the on the industry, I'm trying to recall exactly how you worded
Philip Pape 06:30
I made a phone call by giving you not only a compound question, it was like three in one. It was just basically what it what drives you today. What is your purpose right now? So you gave us a good 30 year chunked up into three decade story. Yeah, here. So what is it right now?
Alan Aragon 06:46
My purpose right now is to conduct research, and educate. And I don't think you ever leave being a coach, being a trainer or a counselor, I don't think you ever leave that. I think it's important to have a handful of clients, or for some of the patients, that they help reach their goals. So so when you completely cut that part out of your life, then you cut out the pulse on what works and what works best and how you can sharpen your craft and make it work even better. And so, so right now, the main purposes, is education. And the research aspects of it are integral to the education purpose, because we're continually trying to peel back the layers to get to the heart of what we think we know that there's kind of an unlimited road ahead, as far as that goes. And that's why research just keeps going.
Philip Pape 07:51
And so your your story resonates with me, maybe a lot of people the fact that you just pursued what you enjoyed and kept following, and pivoting. But everything you had done to that point seemed to build on each other. And it's from day one, you had a common theme here of teaching and communicating, which sounds like it's carried through and it's just added to the whole thing. And you and I were talking before even gotten the recording, you know me for coming from the engineering world. I'm now pursuing something else that interested me as well in nutrition, and combining all these skills together, what makes us unique, right, like combining your various 10 year chunks of of pursuits there gets you to where you are today. So actually, let's talk about communication and research. Because in your book, flexible, flexible dieting, the beginning of it. And this was refreshing to me, you didn't just jump into the prescription you you talked about scientific literacy, evidence based practice the hierarchy of evidence. So let's just start there and define what we mean by evidence based practice. Why is it important for the average person who just wants to get healthy and they're like, just tell me what to do. Why is this important?
Alan Aragon 09:01
Well, the best way to understand evidence based practice is to look at the the field of medicine. So we dig back to the ancient times. There's shamans, there's witchdoctors. There's faith healers, there's all kinds of stuff. And so we really didn't know who to listen to, aside from the person with apparently the most successful patients apparent the person who could most successfully perform his psychic surgeries. And so as the march of history went on, and as humans became enlightened, and as science became a thing, then we started realizing, hey, there's something called the scientific method, where Louis Pasteur actually discovered that there's a microbial basis for disease. It didn't just happen out of thin air. And the way that he figured that out was by setting up experiments controlled experiments to elucidate causal relationships between phenomena. And between agent and effect here. And so the body of research grew in medicine. And we didn't, we no longer needed to seek out the most successful shaman or witch doctor or faith healer, we could refer to the body of literature and see what science has found out. And then what we can do is sort of cross check that with what's working in the field. And so this whole model is transferable to exercise and nutrition. And so what what the fitness world was 1520 years ago was a matter of getting the advice from the most muscular dude in the room, or getting the advice from the one guy who's got a regular stream of clients, or getting advice from the one crack with the best line of supplements, right? So it's very, it's it's a similar transfer, to where the evidence based approach in fitness is taking a look at the research basis of a given claim. Whether it be a claim about a protocol, or a product, or some sort of some sort of phenomenon. And we take a look at the research basis for it. And where there are gray areas, in the research literature, which there are many gray areas, then we can look to field observations, and see where we might be able to fill in the gaps in literature. So the evidence based approach is really kind of a cross check between field observations and the scientific literature. It's not just a matter of anecdote and stories and lore, and history and tradition. And it's also not merely a matter of logging on PubMed finding an abstract and waving around in someone's face that you're arguing with on social media. Yeah, I think that's important evidence based practices is kind of the
Philip Pape 12:14
known again, I love history, the history of that going from the witch doctors to Louis Pasteur, and causing effect. And now having this as a baseline, and you, you brought up the counter argument that sometimes people make, which is like, well, there's dozens, if not hundreds of studies, and which ones do you rely on? And how can you take something that's done for eight weeks with who knows what level of trained individual and they're doing leg presses, but we care about squats, and on and on and on and on, where we've got, you know, these 10 coaches who've worked with people for 40 years, they know what they're talking about, don't they? But you're saying it's really a combination of all these things, we can validate real world experience with the data, or maybe counter it, which is where the magic sometimes happens is when you get surprised, and then looking to field observation. So what was that? Gonna ask about that? With the, I guess you do the research review, right? So how do you select the studies? Right? So that's the thing is there's an overwhelming number of studies, like if you go to PubMed or something, and just Google it or go to Google Scholar, whatever? How do you select them for your research review so that they're relevant, and they're actionable? In the context of what you were talking about?
Alan Aragon 13:24
Yeah, that question is pretty, surprisingly simple. If you spend enough time on social media, and you kind of have your eye on what people are talking about, then you get a steady stream of ideas of what people are interested in, what studies are floating across the different media? And what sort of wild claims are being made. And so with studies floating across social media, you have a steady stream of that to begin with. There's a couple of examples of that. And I can actually relate this, this question with one which you you're probably going to ask, which was why is scientific literacy important? And, you know, how do people gain it and kind of basic understanding of that, and I did write, I did dedicate two whole chapters to helping people gain a foundational grounding in scientific literacy. Because if you if you're completely devoid of scientific literacy, you're easily fooled. And you're easily easily conned, you're easily be asked by various forces in the media who either just want to take your money or, or just want to take your money. So yeah, okay, so, so the conversations on social media give me the ideas of what to write about in the Research Review. One example is the World Health Organization put out a press release, saying that, you know, there's a sort of a light penciled in recommendation to not use artificial sweeteners. Because it's, and this has sent the evidence based community in a bit of a tailspin, because the World Health Organization is supposedly authoritative. But when they put out this this soft guideline, they're basically going against a full one half of the evidence base behind this concept behind the topic of artificial sweeteners. So with experimental evidence with interventional evidence, which is controlled, and which does establish causal relationships, you consistently see weight loss, you consistently see fat loss, improvements in body composition, and the ensuing improvements in various health outcomes. From substituting caloric sweeteners with non caloric or local or artificial sweeteners. That's a very consistent finding. But in the observational literature, which does not control the variables, you can only make statistical adjustments here after the fact. But observational stuff, epidemiological stuff, following large populations, but not necessarily getting a hand in there and intervening and controlling and establishing the straight and strong causal arrows. It's mixed, sometimes there is a favorable association with the consumption of artificial sweeteners. And sometimes there's an unfavorable Association. And so those unfavorable associations with artificial sweeteners and disease are what made the World Health Organization just kind of flip a switch and go home, maybe, maybe we need to recommend that people don't, don't consume artificial sweeteners. But the big problem with that is, when you look at the question of whether artificial sweeteners are good for health or not, and you basically lean on observational data for that, then you open up the possibility for this this confounding element called reverse causality. Okay, so, yes, so instead of the artificial sweetener, causing the disease outcomes, what you have are people on route to those disease outcomes, who decide I better hop on this diet product. Yeah, I better use this artificial sweetener. And so the association is still there, but it's in the wrong causal direction. And so that is the case with artificial sweeteners. And that's why the World Health Organization, in its hilariously infinite wisdom is dropping the ball. And so why
Philip Pape 18:11
are they do why are they doing that? What is their incentive is? Because it isn't money? What is their incentive?
Alan Aragon 18:18
That's a really good question. I think, yeah, personally, I think they're just kind of a bunch of out of touch hippies, that perhaps
Philip Pape 18:26
they're just trying to be too conservative because of some sort of liability if they don't, or let you know, just just what it is.
Alan Aragon 18:32
It may be just a matter of people at the top wanting to stir the pot wanting some attention to the sort of basic human need to gain notoriety and get a little bit of spotlight a little bit of the limelight. They did the same thing in 2015, when they tried to push for a recommendation of below 5% of total calories from added sugars, which is preposterous it is they also push for a preposterously low salt intake. So they want people eating three grains of salt and two grains of sugar, and then cutting out your artificial sweeteners. Who the hell are these people? Yeah, now they don't even know these people probably don't even live to Yeah,
Philip Pape 19:14
exactly. Right. That's important. It's so funny. That I think so I was talking to I think it was Eric Helms. We got into discussion a little bit about seed oils as well. And I've heard you talk about that. And I want to go to I don't want to go down the rabbit hole today. I've got other topics I think. But I think it's a similar I think it's a similar thing right where there's
Alan Aragon 19:32
I could probably I could probably beat Eric on the seat off topic. Eric's probably a noob when it comes to see
Philip Pape 19:40
Oh, no. All right. So the important thing is to have that literacy and to read the first two chapters of flexible dieting because it gives you an ALEC is a really good summary of what that is in layman's terms super quick and easy to understand so that you're you're armed going forward And I also in the book where you then took off and started talking about some of that research that lays the foundation. One of those was that I now use a lot when I communicate on this as well as rigid versus flexible control, right? Just kind of underpinning flexible dieting. Because a lot of people will throw out the, If It Fits Your Macros kind of approach as flexible dieting, and we know that there's, that's not what it is. And what I really learned from the science that started in the 90s, when they started putting out these papers was the sustainability and the outcome that is associated with the flexible control. So just walk us a little bit through that journey of the literature and why flexible dieting is such a powerful tool based on what we know for rigid versus flexible control.
Alan Aragon 20:46
Okay, so we get into a time machine go all the way back to the mid 70s. Where there is this talk about the concept of restraint and how it affects people psychologically. And so there's there's flexible, restraint, rigid restraint. And then we fast forward 20 years and, and the literature dives into rigid dietary restraint versus flexible dietary restraint. And so well that can be entertained with the term dietary control. So, so flexible dieting refers to a cognitive style of the type of restraint that you apply to dieting. So the rigid type of control would be a perception of foods and dieting as black or white, all or nothing, a dichotomous view, if you will, of foods and dieting, and the flexible model of dietary control looks at a very broad spectrum of shades of grey. And so the the flexible model has been compared with the rigid model in several studies over the past couple of decades. And it consistently shows better results and better results. I mean, everything from a lesser tendency to stoke eating disorders, and also a better control of weight loss and weight loss maintenance. And so we're looking at better results, both in the psychological direction as well as the physical and physiological direction. And so it's very clear that there's something treacherous foot when you're taking the rigid dietary control approach. And it's, it seems to be self sabotaging. And it seems to not work in the long term for the majority of the population. And so if we were to look at specific examples here, so a rigid dietary control model would be handing somebody a menu, a script, saying, This is what you eat, From Here to Eternity, don't deviate from it, otherwise, you fail. And a flexible model would be more like, okay, let's say even handing somebody the same script. But saying, you know, as long as you do this script, about 80% of the time 80% of the script. And if you do mess up, don't worry about it, just get right back on the wagon and keep going, then that would be a bit more of a flexible type of model. But I think it's important to, to pan back a little bit. And this is a this is a sort of a difficult concept to convey. But read flexible dieting really accounts for the flexibility of dietary approach. So if somebody does better by being more quantitative and precise, and micromanaging, then that's the approach that that individuals should take. If if another individual does better and can sustain their plan by being more qualitative, more habits based, and being more just idea oriented, and not granular and micromanaging, and they do better that way, then that's the approach they should take. And so there's a flexibility of approach going on here to where something like If It Fits Your Macros where you're punching grams into an app might actually drive some people it drives people crazy. And some people can only endure that for a few weeks before they go home and this is a real pain in the butt and I can't do this, then that's that it's not for them, they should be taking the more habits based type of qualitative type of approach to dieting. And I think that if you can individualize that, then that would be ideal. And there are other aspects within dietary programming that can be individualized. And that also falls under the umbrella of flexible dietary control. So a rigid dietary control model would say that, everybody's got to go keto. Whereas a flexible dietary model would be, hey, if you like keto, you prefer to keto, if you like high carb, low fat, then that's what you should do, because you prefer it, and therefore you'll stick to it in the long term, if you'd like somewhere in between, hey, go that way. Because it's all about doing what you personally prefer. And therefore what you can personally sustain for more than just a few weeks or a few months, whatever you like, best is what you'll be able to sustain for a few years, or you know, a few decades. And there are the other things that are flexible within the dietary program are things like food selection, so the if YM model has been, you know, very flexible about what you can choose in terms of food selection, okay, and that's fine. And that should be a flexible thing. Other programming variables that are flexible are the linearity or non linearity of your caloric intake through the week, or what your intake distribution even looks like, through the day, another variable that can be individualized. And really, when you think of variables of the diet that are flexible, you can think of it in terms of programming variables that you can individualize. So if nothing else, flexible dieting is a way to individualize the dietary variables to suit the individual's personal preference, personal tolerances, and controls, sure, and it can even, you can even, you can even customize things like the way that they hold themselves accountable to what they eat, you can you can individualize the tracking and accountability aspect, you can individualize the way that people approach the so called hedonic allotment or the junk food or indulgence foods, how are they going to manage that aspect of the diet? Is it going to be an everyday thing? Is it going to be a once a week thing? So all of these things are
Philip Pape 27:42
flexible? Yeah. And that's, that's the key, right? Because they're the term flexible dieting gets thrown around a lot with that restrictive or rigid definition of calories or macros. And really, the entire approach is flexible across many variables, it's multi dimensional. You know, in your book, you have a few tables that that give you these spectra along these different variables, which is very helpful. What I wonder this question comes to mind is, is there such a thing as too flexible, if you're trying to go for a specific goal, meaning if you have, for example, a body composition goal with fat loss? Doesn't there have to be some boundary that drives you toward that goal that you can successfully follow and meet and know that you got there? Or are we saying that look, if if you want to take two years to lose, you know, the 10 pounds? Because all you cannot tolerate any rigidity, and that flexible approach, then that's what you do? You know what I'm saying?
Alan Aragon 28:37
Yeah, they're, I would still default to what the individual prefers, and how they operate, how the individual, what makes them tick. So we're gonna give a couple of examples. So like, whereas somebody like Eric helms might grab a scale and punch in the grams, and be, you know, do his flexible approach that way. You'll have somebody like Shawn Ray, who says, you know, I just eat less. I just kind of go by feel, and I eat less than if I'm running a certain hunger level, then I know that I'm dieting. Both of them will take, well, actually, Eric will take six months to prepare for a contest. Shomrei will take three months. There's other variables in there that are different in their protocol.
Philip Pape 29:29
Sure. And you could still be weighing yourself. It's like, that's a separate thing that's not really associated with the dieting and so on, right?
Alan Aragon 29:35
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it really kind of depends on how the individual ticks and that's sort of the beauty of about of that flexible dieting model is it's really usable for for coaches because their coaches are needed to help people figure out what works best for them. And for individuals who are self taught, well then that will, that's a good thing for them too. But the understanding is your program and your approach is going to be unique to you and what makes you tick.
Philip Pape 30:12
Yeah, honestly, the a lot of the challenges we see aren't just, for example, macros, like even if somebody's willing to do that, and to track it, and understands it. It's the behavior based the cravings, the hunger, the social pressure, the emotional eating all of those things that come into play. Yeah. So like, what's your approach to this in the context of flexible dieting, you kind of already gave the answer the fact that you have flexibility built in, but is there anything beyond that?
Alan Aragon 30:44
I think that just as long as people can focus on the long game, and whether they can see themselves, tracking the way they track or focusing the way they focus, then, then I think it's all realistic and doable. For some people, they truly realize that the most granular that they can get for a lifetime, is making sure at least three of their meals have a substantial hit of protein, and that they're consuming their meals to a comfortable level of fullness. And that will likely get them to be hitting the targets that they want to hit. Sure. Whereas with other people, it's like, okay, get me the scale, and I'm going to be counting grams until I'm 85 years old, and I'm going to really enjoy it. The
31:33
most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive. And coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
Philip Pape 32:20
Where do you fall on that? Alan, where do you fall personally,
Alan Aragon 32:24
I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit in the middle as I'm big on, on optimizing the diet for for health and longevity. So, so I'm aware of making sure that that my diet covers the range of the food groups, and that some people think the food groups is an old school thing to, to pay attention to. But the fact of the matter is, we can't just look at the diet as as a set of nutrients, you know, there's some inputs magic within the food matrix of the various food groups, and there are hundreds, probably 1000s of compounds that we haven't isolated, that benefit human health in within each of the food groups. So I make sure that my diet has something from each of the six food groups every day. And I make sure that in so that's the sort of the, the food selection part of it. And then the macro nutrition part of it, I make sure that I'm eating about 40 ish, well, let's say 30 to 50 grams of protein four times a day. Sure, you know, and then I've got my protein covered. And then I just make sure that the meals that I eat our meals that I love, and there if you've nailed the type of meal kind of archetypes that you love, you can just eat that for life, you can have the same types of meals true and, and enjoy them every time. And just like if somebody enjoys coffee, you can enjoy coffee for a freakin lifetime, every single day of your life and it can be the same way with with different meals, different foods. So, so yeah, fine. You have to find what you enjoy. Cover the food groups, get your macro nutrition right with protein being kind of the kind of the foundation there to make sure that you're you're getting enough of because it's very rare for people to need to really gosh, I gotta get enough carbs and gotta get enough fat. Unless you're somebody who has specific athletic goals then those variables are not terribly important. So somebody like myself, I don't have to worry about getting enough calories is number one I love to eat. And number two, I do not have a Eat high energy output. And so if anything I have to kind of keep an eye on, not overeating. Sure. And so yes, it's going to be different with everybody. But with me, I guess the thing that might stick out is the fact that I do care about health quite a bit. So I want to make sure I get all the food groups in, in the course of the day and enough servings from the food groups in through the course of the day in the course of the week. Yeah, I think
Philip Pape 35:27
I'd enjoy sit and sit down with you throughout the course of the day and seeing what you eat. Because it sounds delicious, too, you know, the more you get, yeah, so kind of, I guess the counter counter to that. But you did mention the other side, the indulgences and treats and things that people like. And, of course, a lot of people getting into this journey for the first time or have been struggling, have a lack of awareness of how much the what they eat, what's in what they eat, and on and on and on. And so there's definitely, there's processes that different people have to go through to kind of level up their education and awareness. But we talked about treats and indulgences, once you get to the point where you you understand this and you have an approach, what is the sustainable way to do that, beyond just saying 20%, you know, an allocation, and no, that's part of it. For some people their cravings or, or emotional triggers. You know, some people would do better to abstain, and some people might do better to occasionally indulge so that they kind of take the edge off and enjoy what they enjoy. What is your take on that?
Alan Aragon 36:29
I think this is another department where you have to dive into what the individual's proclivities are. So there is a small subset of people who are better off not having any of the classic junk foods. But Alternatively, they have to investigate the foods that really fulfill that part of their primal needs. You know, like, some people will feel an, an incredible reward response from eating some fresh fruit. A, okay, that's great, if you want to stick with that, and you don't want to do the cakes and the cookies and the ice cream. Okay, cool, then that's you. Whereas others may actually be able to sustain a diet better if they can have a double scoop of ice cream on the weekend. Or a, an in and out, double double, let's say, on the weekend, or whatever, whatever it is, but sort of this model of 10 to 20% of total calories coming from whatever, it can manifest in different ways. So like with me, for example, my in quotes, discretionary calorie allotment is usually chocolate, some form of chocolate, and that's usually daily. And so I will have about, I probably err on the 10 to 15% of my total calories coming from indulgence foods. So an example would be about two to 300 calories of some kind of chocolaty dessert, it's usually a little closer to 200, than than 300. But it's, it's chocolate, I can add nuts to it, I can add peanut butter to it. And I truly enjoy, I don't need to dive into an entire cake to get that that itch scratched. Because I know I'm going to have it the next day if I want to. And so as long as it's framed for the person's kind of just mindset to perceive this as this is something I can take or leave and this is something I can have every day if I want or not. And when that mindset is established, then the kind of indulgence and the forbidden fruit aspect of the food and the power that the food has over the individual is kind of taken away. Yeah. So So yeah, that would
Philip Pape 39:17
be the approach and that's a great way to put it the forbidden fruit aspect the power it gets taken away. You earlier mentioned your heat Donek allotment and that's sometimes a term I hear used or what is called plan hedonism, we'll plan higher calorie it goes really for all of this and it goes back to the rigid versus flexible approach again of once you set rules on to people man we just rebel we like mentally we just don't want to be told what to do is the way I like to put it and so when you're telling yourself you can't do this, it's just just a built to go Yeah.
Alan Aragon 39:51
Yeah, what would most people it does, and in fact, what people have binge eating disorder, the vast majority of the I have it in their mind that they're not allowed to have XY and Z foods, you know, this list of foods, I am not allowed to have these foods they have that in their mind. And those are the precise foods that they've been John.
Philip Pape 40:15
Got it? Yeah, it makes sense. So okay, so we've talked a lot about the control or the restraint aspect. I maybe talk about you mentioned protein for a bit. So I didn't want to ask you like this, this has come up quite a bit. With some other coaches I've talked about the split between protein sources are foods that you eat and the sources you get, in other words, animal versus plant, and all the various outcomes, muscle building, but also cardiovascular health and lean mass and all of those things. Is there like a hierarchy of when it comes to selecting foods to get our protein? Or does it really always come back to just get enough spread it throughout the day and have a diverse diet with like the six food groups and you're good?
Alan Aragon 41:02
For the majority of the population, dude, what you just said is going to apply for the majority of the population that that is bright on actually. But for people who are nitpicking towards the you know the fringes and the limits the optimal aspects, then it's going to come down to omnivore ism, it's going to come down to including both animal and plant foods as far as protein goes. But theoretically, you know, you can construct a diet that that'll help you live to the mean, the mean high higher end age, or a favorable upper upper end. But it depends on how much you really kind of obsess over health and how protective you are of mental health. And how complete you you want your your nutrient intake to be. And so I'm always going to personally default to omnivore ism for that. And that is not to say that there is an innumerable amount of people doing well if x cluding animal foods, but I don't personally want to incur any of the risks and sub optimizations associated with it.
Philip Pape 42:29
Talk to Eric Trexler. About that. Yeah, he is. Yeah, I'll miss it. I actually talking to him next week. So he's gonna explore some of that the interesting, as we get older, the idea of anabolic resistance, which I haven't honestly dived into too much, but how big of a deal is that phenomenon? Like, how why does it happen? And what can we do about it? Like, is it is it? Is it related to age? Or is it related to kind of a loss of muscle mass most people have, because I haven't been training, for example.
Alan Aragon 43:04
Okay, so um, that's a good actually a good transition like a 100%, plant based and the elderly population, those are two things that don't go well. And that's because there are certain critical aspects of the diet that can be fulfilled, more feasibly with an omnivorous diet in the elderly, than with with a completely plant based diet. unless you can convince elderly folks to eat the volume of foods and the types of foods and the supplementation of, let's say, protein sources, and the use of engineered plant protein type sources that could hypothetically cover their their essential amino acids and protein needs to protect against sarcopenia that can be an issue. And so now, even when you do that, you're still not going to get all the nutrients that are available within animal foods, you're still not going to get new collagen. And there is quite a lot of research showing the benefits of collagen supplementation, getting collagen within the diet, the role of collagen and even basic things like tissue healing, you're not going to get that you're not going to get creatine unless you supplement with it. You're not going to get other things like carnitine carnosine answering the debatable one cholesterol, whether that's going to net help you or not. And, and so, a lot of these compounds like marine based Omega three EPA DHA, especially DHA, you're going to have a hell of a time getting that in a in an animal free diet, unless you supplement with an algal based DHA, EPA. And so people who switch over to a full bore plant based thing, and they're doing it for ideological reasons. Hey, have at it. Have at it, Eric.
Philip Pape 45:28
Eric's ready to get started now.
Alan Aragon 45:32
They can both have at it. That's when things get get interesting. But But yeah, one of the reasons that I have not even at the tender age of 51, crossed over to full plant based and not even close, is because I'm too protective of my of the optimization of my own personal health, and my own personal longevity, I don't think it's possible to take to recreate the nutrition in animal based foods, and by throwing together a bunch of the compounds that we know, at which that might be the sum of the parts and attempting to create the whole in a plant based form. Just Color Me skeptical. But yeah,
Philip Pape 46:25
yeah, no, that's cool. I didn't know you're honestly gonna go there. Because I was just curious about incorporating plants, not so much going all the way plant based. But I'm glad you brought that up. Because because people ask that and you have a fairly definitive position on that, that that people should understand, or at least the compromises and trade offs are making if they decide to go one way or the other and have to make decisions to fill in the gaps. Okay, and I am
Alan Aragon 46:50
very, I'm very live and let live. I think that people have the right to take that road, take the plant based road. And a lot of people do quite well on I mean, at the population level, and at the sort of at the at the general population level via people who do vegan ism properly. They do very well. I just, you know, personally for myself and you my loved ones, I I wouldn't I put a little bit of a blockade on.
Philip Pape 47:28
So it's all good. It's all good.
Alan Aragon 47:30
And I have many I have many vegan friends. I have many vegan friends. Sure. And I'm glad that that they that, you know, not every vegan is living let live in this aspect. But I'm glad my vegan friends are very live and let live with me as an omnivore rather than kind of judging and then excluding and condemning. But yeah, the judges cluding can condemn thing.
Philip Pape 47:56
Yeah, no, I agree, Doc dogma and putting up those walls and everything. We don't need that. Oh, well. Okay, so let's get into another hot topic. Maybe not hot topic. But it's an interesting one. That's nonlinear dieting. And intermittent fasting is the big one that comes out of there. But there's also other many other strategies you talked about in the book. One, one thing I wanted to ask about specifically what we talked about that time restricted feeding, but also carb cycling, in the context of when somebody is in a fat loss phase, and they're just don't have many calories to work with, you know, they have low calories, maybe two or three meals a day. Is there any value in the nonlinear dieting approach, like carb cycling for that or intermittent fasting for that matter?
Alan Aragon 48:42
The kind of the anti climactic answer Phillip is that it depends on it depends on whether the person prefers it depends on whether the person prefers it. So the conditions where nonlinear dieting work best are usually under conditions where somebody will a prefers it. And if we're talking about just like, like meal frequency, are we talking about meal frequency in general? Are we talking about carb intake specifically?
Philip Pape 49:21
That's a good question, right? Because there's both the protein carb distribution because of your workouts, for example, to make sure you have enough carbs around your workouts, and there's also the muscle protein synthesis, right? So all of these come into play. It's like should we squeeze everything using time restricted feeding, because I'm also going to be ravenous. Other times for some people? And is it gonna, like throw all this other stuff out the window? Or is it just fine? You know, like, whatever works for you. It's good enough.
Alan Aragon 49:50
Yeah, it depends on really kind of depends on on the scenario. Yeah. Depends on the goal. So it's like, you know, with these questions Since like, what's the goal and what's the population. So with, let's take an extreme population like competitive bodybuilders or competitive physique athletes, there's almost always going to be a carb cycling or a calorie cycling type of model, especially towards towards the end in deep spots of prep, where you're not going to be going linear, low calorie, to where those spikes or those carb ups are going to both serve as a psychological boost as well as boost in training capacity to kind of preserve that during during those stretches. And so if somebody has a large amount of carbs allotted to them daily, then the need for cycling them is close to nil. Now, if somebody is taking a low carb model or a ketogenic diet model, then a nonlinear approach to carbon taken can boost adherence, and it can improve training performance on certain days. And so it really depends on the individual situation. And so now if we go away from carbs, and on to just meals, in general, that truly just depends on the individual's preference. Some people prefer a grazing pattern. Whereas some people prefer more of a gorging pattern, where instead of eating like four to six small meals a day, they're eating, like two to three larger meals a day. And there's really no advantage specific to each of those or exclusive to each of those beyond the person's personal preference for them. For either one of those. And the intermittent fasting topic is really, it is really fascinating. And we've looked at that quite a bit, I just wrote a kind of a monster a review on intermittent fasting effects on body composition. Apparently, the human species is just extremely tolerant and resilient, have such a wide range of permutations of meal frequencies through the day, and through the week that it honestly almost doesn't matter to the point where it's really all about personal preference and what your goal is. So the different variants of intermittent fasting are interesting to look at because you have the one variant which is just concentrating your feeding window to a shorter time period in the day. So time restricted eating or time restricted feeding, as we used to call it. This was popularized by Martin Birkin when an Oreo Hof Mechler, with a Warrior Diet where you give yourself somewhere between usually 568 hours to eat your to eat all the food in your day. There's a lot of research research been done on that with and without training, there's been a lot of research on alternate day fasting, whether it be zero calorie alternate day fasting, or a little bit more gentle model where on your inputs, fasting days, you're eating like about 500 ish calories a day. That's the Crysta Verity model of alternate day fasting. And then there's the twice weekly fasting with a five two model, which is an even more gentle version of the alternate day fasting. So all of these models have been studied. All of these models have done comparably well to daily caloric restriction for weight loss and fat loss. But then the subtleties and the nuances there are interesting too, depending on what what goal you're looking at. But okay, a misconception with fasting is that it's better for your health better for longevity.
Philip Pape 54:03
Due to all sorts of theories autophagy or whatever else. Yeah, yeah, so that's
Alan Aragon 54:08
not that's not true. That's just a bunch of speculations. And, in fact, the leaner, you get the leaner and more fit you get, the more risky fasting becomes for the preservation of lean body mass.
Philip Pape 54:25
Yes. Yeah, no, I this is great. And I'll tell you, I've personally tried various forms of, if over the years, lean games, protocol, facet training, whatever. And I always came back to just eating when I kind of felt right. And by that tends to work, right, because it's sustainable. And I love that people can hear this and just continue to dispel these myths and realize that it's so simple. I mean, it can be simple. It's like what works for you. And then the other variables you have to tweak to get to your goal get there, but don't try to go after this next shiny thing or some You know, pet theory, just because whatever you're doing now maybe isn't working for other reasons, but like consistency and adherents. So it's a good message and we keep hammering home. So I thank you for that. I know we're running short on time. So I'm just going to ask my second last question, which I asked all my guests. And that is Alan, what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Alan Aragon 55:24
Dude, can I tell you that? I read the show notes. And I read that damn question. And I'm like, I am genuinely stumped. I'm stumped. But I, I lean towards maybe wanting to be asked, What if there's something else that I would rather be doing than what I'm doing?
Philip Pape 55:52
Oh, that's an interesting one.
Alan Aragon 55:55
If you had if a genie could just kind of wave a wand over you. And would give you your dream job or your dream vocation, you know, your just your dream situation? Would you? What would that be? And I I am at a loss for thinking of what I enjoy more than what I'm doing right now, which is researching and teaching and striving for self improvement and helping others do that the same thing. So I can't think I can't think of it. But then now here's the hilarious part, okay. About 25 years ago, I was at the gym, and this older guy. He he struck up a conversation with me, and he said, Okay, check this out, man. This is everybody claims that they want to be this or that or what they want to become this or that. But here's the thing that everybody would want to be. Regardless, here's the thing, every guy would leave their job for no matter what you work as. And I'm like, Okay, what he's all a male supermodel.
Philip Pape 57:23
I didn't see that comment, that was just something profound. Looking at him, and he says,
Alan Aragon 57:31
I'm serious, every guy would leave the job that imagine that you get paid millions of dollars to stand there and look good.
Philip Pape 57:43
The process of tightening look good, because that's the hard part.
Alan Aragon 57:48
And that was super duper hilarious. And then there's another hilarious story attached to that, where I've done these, these talks on succeeding in the fitness industry. Like, how to how to succeed, okay? And so my definition, my personal definition of success is doing what you love to do. But what you're actually doing is something you would not trade out for any other other job, any other career. So if you're doing what you love, more than anything, it's more than any other kind of career, that you can think of career position or whatever that you can think of. Then you're succeeding if you're doing that. And,
Philip Pape 58:39
and yeah, meaning you don't have to have a certain results doing that just yet. You've already succeeded because you're doing what you love, right? You're
Alan Aragon 58:46
because you're because you're doing what you love. And if you're doing what you love, then then you you're successful. Now, this is the super funny part. I gave this talk. And my friend Brad Schoenfeld was in the audience. And he yelled this out, like, in the middle of me saying, Okay, so I'm trying to think of exactly how I said it. So I get this, right. I said if you're okay, no, no, no, yeah, I said, I, I feel like I've succeeded. Because there's, there's no nobody out there. Whose shoes I would trade. You know, there, whether it's whether it's Tom Cruise or Lord knows what you know, think of a celebrity think of somebody who has it all or anything. There's nobody out there, who I would trade places with. And then Brad Schoenfeld yells from the audience. Except Brett stupid hilarious. Because Because Brett you know, as much as we like, like to think our jobs are awesome. Like, of course, Brett Brett got to figure it out better than we do. Right. So, so so it was just amazing. He said he yelled it out loud. The the audience just died laughing because they get the joke. And so yeah, so aside from maybe a supermodel or Brett. Yeah, got it.
Philip Pape 1:00:15
Now that's a good question, one of the thought to ask you that because you do seem to just love what you do. So I wouldn't even I wouldn't even have dared, you know. I do love it. And then yeah, no, that's awesome. That's awesome. So I could have easily asked you a million more questions. But let's just end with how people can best reach out to you and learn about you.
Alan Aragon 1:00:34
Alan aragon.com is the hub of everything. My largest social media platform is Instagram. And I'm occasionally on Twitter and Facebook and even more rarely on Tik Tok. For better probably, I don't know. Yeah.
Philip Pape 1:00:49
All right, yeah, tick tock. I know so many platforms. Okay. So I'll go I'll put those in the show notes people easily be able to find you of course. And this was a pleasure and an honor Alan, I really appreciate you, you know, replying to my invitation when I reached out to you by video on IG actually, and coming on the shows. It was awesome. Thank you for coming on.
Alan Aragon 1:01:09
Thank you right back Phillip.
Philip Pape 1:01:12
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 79: Solving the Fat Loss Conundrum Through Self-Love and Mind-Body Health with Allie Cass
Today I have a very special guest with me. Her name is Allie Cass, and she is a former bodybuilding pro turned functional health and fitness coach who helps stressed-out women optimize their metabolism, up-level their mindset, and shift from surviving to thriving. Allie will share her unique perspectives on health and fitness, the importance of the mind-body connection in overcoming health challenges, and how to up-level your mindset to achieve your goals. You'll learn about the fat-loss conundrum—where hormones, gut health, and stress intersect—and practical strategies for optimizing these. We will explore topics like body positivity, self-improvement, and self-love.
Today I'm sitting down with Greg Nuckols to talk about lifting, MacroFactor, and science. You'll learn what he's been up to lately, his take on lifting and life, and all things MacroFactor. We'll also explore how to be consistent and maybe even enjoy tracking your nutrition, incorporating scientific research into your health and fitness routine, and other words of wisdom.Today I have a very special guest with me. Her name is Allie Cass, and she is a former bodybuilding pro turned functional health and fitness coach who helps stressed-out women optimize their metabolism, up-level their mindset, and shift from surviving to thriving. Allie will share her unique perspectives on health and fitness, the importance of the mind-body connection in overcoming health challenges, and how to up-level your mindset to achieve your goals.
You'll learn about the fat-loss conundrum—where hormones, gut health, and stress intersect—and practical strategies for optimizing these. We will explore topics like body positivity, self-improvement, and self-love.
Allie is the founder of Allie Cass Health and the Metabolic Makeover, an online immersion program that teaches women how to reclaim their health, heal their metabolism, ditch self-sabotage, and create a life of strength and vitality. She’s an advocate for self-love, becoming your best self through mind-body health, and living a life fully alive!
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:05] Transition from professional bodybuilding to health coaching
[6:24] Living in the extremes of being unhealthy to professional bodybuilding
[10:00] The power of self-love and the right mindset
[13:16] Shifting the narrative to self-love and healing
[17:11] The impact of mindset on well-being
[20:46] Impact of life stress on fitness
[23:34] Taking action to level up the mindset
[26:08] Assigning meaning and taking control
[28:44] Lisa credits Philip's coaching for her 17-lb weight loss and gives him a grateful shout-out
[29:30] The Fat-Loss Conundrum
[33:22] Pre-diet, maintenance, or prep to normalize a dysfunction
[34:53] High-impact actions to improve gut health
[38:25] Mindfulness when eating and taking a walk after meals
[40:39] Managing the different layers of life stress
[46:44] Overcoming negative body-image
[51:28] Performance-based vs. habit-based approach for teens
[53:33] Helping women to live fully alive
[57:40] The question Allie wished Philip asked
[58:55] Outro
Episode resources:
Mindset & Metabolism Makeover: Allie’s one-on-one mind-body transformation program
Instagram: @alliecasshealth
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
🥩 Download Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here
🫙 Get high-quality 1st Phorm supplements here
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Transcript
Allie Cass 00:00
And then let's say they're in a really high stress career and they finally make a decision and they're like, You know what? I can't do this anymore. I'm gonna make a pivot. They go to something they're more satisfied with and they dropped 10 pounds like that.
Philip Pape 00:14
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I have a very special guest with me. Her name is Allie Cass and she's a former bodybuilding Pro turned functional fitness, functional health and fitness coach who helps stressed out women optimize their metabolism uplevel their mindset and shift from surviving to thriving, Ali will share her unique perspectives on health and fitness, the importance of the mind body connection in overcoming health challenges, and how to uplevel your mindset to achieve your goals. You'll learn about the fat loss conundrum where hormones gut health and stress intersect, and practical strategies for optimizing these. We will explore topics like body positivity, self improvement and self love. Ali's the founder of ally casts health and the metabolic makeover, an online immersion program that teaches women how to reclaim their health, heal their metabolism, ditch self sabotage, and create a life of strength and vitality. She's an advocate for self love becoming your best self through mind body health and living life fully alive. Ali, welcome to the show.
Allie Cass 01:43
Thank you so much for having me. That was a fire introduction. I think you wrote that better than I would have written up myself.
Philip Pape 01:49
So we tried to do here break the fire and I know you will as well. So I'm really excited. Thank you for coming out. I just I have to just say this everybody, like we both had a little mix up in our, in our appointment time here and we were able to pull it together, jump on and now we're recording the show. So it's gonna be fun. Okay, so what what was the turning point for you? You could tell me your whole story. But I really want to understand the turning point in your life when you transition from being a professional bikini fitness competitor, right to as you call it a health and fitness fanatic and business owner.
Allie Cass 02:21
Yes. So I will say there were two big turning points for me. The first was technically prior to becoming a bodybuilding competitor and then professional. And that was right after I graduated college, my mother was diagnosed with stage three brain cancer. I had been an athlete my entire life. So I wasn't competing in bodybuilding, but I was always competing in some sort of sport and some shape or form. Movement was always very important to me. But that was when I realized a couple of things in my life, I realized that no one taught me how to nourish my body. Nobody taught me about nutrition, health, stress management, sleep recovery. It was all about training for that competition. And I saw myself being the unhealthiest that I had ever been simultaneously watching my mom get sick and going through that journey with her. I also realized through that process, a lot of the flaws that we have in our western medical system, and how how the system that we live in is really a system to treat sick people not help people be their healthiest. So she was really my catalyst, my mom getting cancer, she passed away nine months after her initial diagnosis. And that was really the catalyst of me getting into this industry, doing it for myself, but also doing it with the intention of helping other women because I started asking questions like What makes someone truly healthy? You know, what is the role that nutrition, environmental toxins, stress, thoughts, beliefs, like where do these all intersect? And how does that interplay to either make somebody a healthier version of themselves or to make them sick, and it really was actually a way for me to cope with that loss. And I didn't know it at the time. So fast forward a couple of months, I again, I found myself in a place where I was the heaviest I'd ever been. I was 22 years old, and I felt like Shi T. I was tired. I just I didn't like the way that I was showing up in the world. And I didn't feel like myself. I hired a health and fitness coach and I really just wanted someone to help me get back on track and just give me a goal to work towards the athlete. And he was like, No, I'm not working toward anything. I don't know what I'm doing. And she was like, why don't you compete in bodybuilding? And I was like, why don't you recommend something that doesn't sound as terrible as that but she quickly convinced me to do it. It became a wonderful thing for me at that point in my life and at that point in my journey. However, about a year and a half into bodybuilding, I had that kind of second pivot point where I realized okay, I went from one end to the spectrum. Now I'm totally on the other like my de Rivoli. was around when I'm going to eat, what food do I have access to? When am I going to work out and it, it served its point for part of my life. And then I was like, wow, this is controlling my life, I now have body dysmorphia. I don't have an eating disorder, but I have disordered eating habits and patterns and views around food. And so I really weren't like many women, I was like, either at zero or I was at 100. So once I made it over to 100, I was like, still didn't really feel very healthy either. And even though I look amazing, I still feel like I don't quite feel my best. So that was that turning point where I was like, Okay, I need to get out of this competitive space. And I need to focus on from a functional perspective. Again, going back to the root of health, what does that really look like for me? What areas are not optimized? And how can I fix those, so I can show up as a better version of myself to help other people. And so it was that initial, you know, having that tragedy going through that that really got me into the space. And then it was realizing that I had gone from one unhealthy end of the spectrum all the way to the other where I was like, whoa, okay, this isn't it either. And that kind of caused me to take a little bit of a pivot. And I will say, I'm not quite as lean or ripped as I was when I was a competitor. But I feel the best I've ever felt in my body, both physically and mentally. And it's such a great place to be.
Philip Pape 06:23
Oh, that's such a great story. I mean, talking about the extremes like that there are people who look at fitness influencers, and they look at an ideal. And think wouldn't it be great to be there. And it sounds like you've, you've had the personal experience, at least of going from the spectrum of, okay, there's a lack of health, right, there's sickness, there's maybe doing things that sabotage your health and so on to I want to look great and have this aesthetical in this very specific, extreme ideal, and you did that it sounds like and learn from it. Do you have any regrets of going through that? Are you happy you went through that? Because it taught you those extremes?
Allie Cass 07:00
Absolutely. I'm so grateful for the experience. And then like I said, at the time, it was also a way for me to process my grief and process the anger that I had around losing my mom in a more healthy productive way, as opposed to, you know, going out and binge drinking and then reaping the, you know, the the cons of that. And so it did serve its purpose, for a lot of different reasons. It opened me up to the world that I'm now in, if I hadn't met my coach and mentor in that process, I actually ended up buying her business, I've rebranded. So it's been at whole evolution. And so I'm a big believer that at any given point in time, we're right where we're meant to be, even if it doesn't feel or look the way that we want it to. And so I'm very grateful for the journey and I've oftentimes thought about what if I just went back and did one more show, and I don't know that I ever will but I am grateful for what I've learned in the process.
Philip Pape 07:53
I know what you mean there if I didn't get into lifting tie was around 40. And I've never been like through a properly proper like shred phase, you know, getting totally cut I had I had Cody McBroom on my show not long ago, his shows coming out. And toward the end, he's like, hey, you know, if you ever want to get shredded, reach out to me, I'm like, you know, I want to do that, because I've heard from bodybuilders what that can cause but like you said, there's value in all of these and some of the some of the behaviors you had to apply for even the extremes of that. I imagine you still use some of those to to a certain level, like maybe tracking food, or at least being aware of things that you can help clients get through, would you say it's a fair statement?
Allie Cass 08:30
Absolutely. And tracking foods are a really great example. Because it's something I was having this conversation this morning with a client. It's not something I do all the time. But it is something that I will bring myself through periods of doing that, because I think that I know where I'm at. But sometimes it is really beneficial to get that accurate picture of exactly what's going on. Because sometimes we self report and we're not that accurate with what we're really doing. So I think that everything that I learned in bodybuilding, and this could be the case with anything that you learn in life can be used as a tool in the right circumstance with the right intention. And so for me, it's all about the intention, right? Like, am I doing this because I feel like I need to get shredded, because it's going to make me look and feel a way that my ego is going to make me happy, you know, am I feeling unworthy of something? And I feel that I need to do this? Or is it purely because I really want that accurate data? I want to have a good picture of where I'm at so I can make data informed decisions about what I should do next.
Philip Pape 09:25
Yeah, you put it great. Bass when you said the tool is, well, it's agnostic, right? You need it for a circumstance and an intention. And I do agree with that, because I was actually just recording a solo episode about when to lose lose fat or build muscle or whatever under different scenarios and talk about food tracking how if you have the intuition, it may you may not need it at all. And you may even not eat it if you've never done it before, but there's value in it to going through it at least for a time. And so even limiting these extremes for a tad you know, just especially with guidance of a coach can be enlightening, right if nothing else Exactly. All right. So I mean, you're, you're a big advocate for self love living life fully alive. I love that language. It's very positive, very optimistic, and, and even self centered in the right way if I can put it that way, because we often neglect ourselves for years. That's right. So how do you define these concepts? Like what are and then practically, how can we cultivate these? Yeah, absolutely.
Allie Cass 10:23
So I love the topic of self love, because it's one of those that has gained so much traction on Instagram and social media. But I think people explore it a lot of times in a not so constructive way. So I feel like you have people on one side of the spectrum, who are just it's go go go at self improvement all the time, you know, it's not, it's never good enough. And then you have people on the other side that are like, love yourself, and it's all magic and rainbows, and you're perfect the way that you are. And it's, I think that mindset can breed complacency. So what I oftentimes tell clients is, in my opinion, self love is doing the things necessary to get you to where you want to be in life. Now, again, what's the intention behind that? Where you want to be in life? Are we doing it because it's genuinely gonna make us a better person? Is it gonna make our life better? Is it gonna give us the tools that we can, you know, have a more positive impact in the world? Or is it coming from a place of I feel unworthy, I feel lack all of that. So we, when I work with clients, we dive into those things. But I think that self love, sometimes is doing the hard things, right? It's actually having the discipline to show up and do what I need to do to help me reach that next level of what it is that I truly desire. I don't think that self love is going to get your nails done, or going to get a massage, like those are all great things, if that's what you're into self care. Right. Exactly, exactly. So I think there's a lot of noise on social media. And I think people get confused. Because it's like, you know, it's, you're a parent, right? You have kids. And sometimes, what you have to do for your kids, to show them that you love them is not the thing that they want you to do in that moment. So sometimes we need to do that same thing with ourselves. Because we do love ourselves. And we do want to get better. So I think that when you can look at those things a little more objectively, you can say like, wow, you know, maybe going to the gym today, or maybe making a better choice with my nutrition or whatever XYZ is actually a form of self love and not a form of discipline, or not discipline, but restriction or something like that. And so that's where I try to help clients reframe their mindset around what is the self love talk topic? Because I think that self love and self improvement are not mutually exclusive. But oftentimes in the industry, when we talk about them, it seems as though they are, I think they're one in the same personally.
Philip Pape 12:40
For sure. That's where we can get into things like body positivity and accepting yourself versus, you know, accepting the person you are and then striving for more, because you love that person.
Allie Cass 12:50
Right. Exactly. And that self acceptance, I think what you said is literally the key, right? It's not about like, let's just fake pretend that we love ourselves right now, right? But it's like, I accept myself, just as I accept you, just as I accept everyone else in the world, can we all do better? Sure, let's go do it. But you have to have that acceptance first, at a healthy level before you can make yourself better, and have it come from a positive place of intention.
Philip Pape 13:16
So when you see people struggle with that, or come in with, you know, I've had clients who are just it's very, very difficult for them to get over themselves as that one way to put it, or even they're just just in a routine from years and years of self sabotage of like, I can't, I didn't make any excuses and so on. How do you deal with that? The real extremes of that and getting them shifted toward this positive mindset?
Allie Cass 13:39
Yeah, I mean, I would be lying if I said it was easy. Some clients, it's certainly easier than others. But for me, it's all about bringing that awareness. First, I think, for a lot of those people who have been living in that mindset, or in that place for a long time, that's just the narrative, that's their norm. They don't even realize that that's kind of the place that they live in. And so bringing to attention the verbiage that they use to talk about themselves, or to talk about how they interact with the world, asking questions, you know, why do you believe this? Or where does this stem from? Is this your belief? Or did you pick this up from someone? And so, I, when I'm coaching people, I try to have this come up as an organic thing, because I think that people also have to be ready to explore those areas. But I just start poking little holes in keep going and asking questions. And I even had a client the other day who she said something that we were in a dialogue and she said something about like, I know, I can't have this or something along those lines. And I was like, Okay, let's, you know, let's reframe that verbiage. Because the reality is, is no one's telling you, you can't, you're just adopting that belief because of what you've been told. And so we talked about it, I offered a different perspective. And she's like, Well, that makes total sense. Thank you for interjecting on that. And so I find that like when you have a really good relationship between client and coach, which is a big deal for me when I work with people Will, you can foster you know, that connection and start using that to shed some light for people. Now, sometimes it's a lot harder I have sent clients to therapy before it just as a recommendation, you know, like if I can tell that something is stemming from, let's say a childhood trauma or something that's really deep that I'm, you know, it's a little bit outside of my scope, I will make that recommendation, I explained to them how that's affecting not just their mindset that their physiology and how they're showing up now. And so, you know, it kind of depends on the person. But I'm a big proponent of unpacking those things, whether it's me whether it's with another professional because I do see the impact that it has on their health on their wellness and how they show up.
Philip Pape 15:43
You know, what's great about coaching, because you talked about the personal experience, I was thinking of a Netflix documentary called Stutz with Jonah Hill. I don't know if you've seen it yet. I haven't. But I need to, you should watch. It's one of those things where the hook isn't that great. And it doesn't look that interesting when you watch it like this blows your mind, especially as a coach because as a a psychotherapist, this particular man who works with him, believes a lot using tools to help me help people move forward rather than focusing so much on the past. And like sitting in all the all this trauma. And of course, we're not we're not shrinks, and but because someone's coming to you with the intent of taking a step forward and improving themselves are already in that mindset of I want to do something to move here. It's not just talking to someone, necessarily, exactly. So you just you just talked about how like having a coach like you get deep with them can uncover things, even if you're not a psychotherapist, for the intent of using a tool to move forward. So it's a good distinction to make and why having support is very helpful because even our own family members who love us don't necessarily have the, the awareness or the ability to provide that exact same type of support.
Allie Cass 16:48
Exactly. And sometimes, at least in my experience, it's hard to get certain feedback from your partner or from people that are in your family or people that you're close with, especially when we're you know, starting to really dig into like things at a deep emotional level. And so sometimes it's nice to have somebody who you know, cares about you, but it's a little bit more of a third party.
Philip Pape 17:10
Yeah, exactly. So so we're getting into mindset stuff here. And I did want to explore that because so many conversations I have with coaches and even my own experience with clients, it's 99% up here. And there is a connection and you're talking there's physiological connections, there's there's emotional connections, neurological and so on. You you wrote, quote, I don't know if this was on your website, but I, I found it somewhere, quote, We can literally die at any moment. And while that is a terrifying thought, for some, it's what gives us the drive to make the most out of each and every day, which is what I help women do through mind body transformation. And like, for me that connection, that mind body connection is powerful, because one tends to unleash the other and create this perfect storm and elevates the whole person, you know, physically and mentally. Sharon example now that we're getting to mindset of how you've seen that connection play a role in overcoming any health challenge.
Allie Cass 18:03
Yeah, I'll speak with my own experience. About four years ago, I found myself again, kind of in this place where I wasn't I wasn't sick, per se, I had some gut issues, I had some other things, low level challenges that I was working on. I just I didn't feel my best I was working out. So I felt like my exercise is pretty on point my nutrition, maybe could have done a little bit better. But again, pretty on point was definitely not a newbie at that point in time, supplementation felt like that was on point. And I just felt energetically low. A lot of the time like I felt heavy, I felt like I was carrying around a lot of baggage I couldn't quite figure it out. And when I sat down and I really dissected that I realized that I had a lot of grief from losing my mom, I also under went to a another traumatic death when I was in high school. And so I realized that a lot of the things that I thought that I had addressed, I had not really addressed, I just pushed down and was like I'm strong, I can deal with it. And so it was that factor. And then on the other side of the coin, I also realized there were a lot of situations and things that I was engaging in on a daily basis in my own life that I just wasn't happy with. And so it was literally the energetic weight of me feeling unhappy me carrying grief me holding on to burdens from the past that I for some reason, could not let go of at that time, but thought that I had. And when I went through the process, I went to therapy myself, I started doing a lot of self work, I started really analyzing what was going on in my mind. What I really wanted out of life and where the incongruency was between where I was at then what I was saying that I wanted and why I wasn't showing up that way. And as I started to work on those things. I just started feeling more energized. I started feeling happier, I felt lighter, and I just started showing up differently. So it was interesting because I kept saying like, Well, gosh, like I'm not eating anything that I know bothers me. I'm working out you know, I'm sleeping pretty well and it was just I kept going back to those things like, what am I doing wrong? What am I missing? And the reality was It was everything going on inside, was refusing to address that was keeping me feeling less than my best. So that's an example of how I've seen that play out in my own life. And, you know, similar similarly with clients, I've had clients before who are amazing women, they're dedicated to the process, they do all the right things, and they get great results. And then let's say they're in a really high stress career, and they finally make a decision. And they're like, You know what, I can't do this anymore, I'm going to make a pivot, they go to something they're more satisfied with, and they drop 10 pounds like that, like they're happier, they sleep better, their stress levels are, are significantly lower, and then that shows up in their physical manifestation of a body.
Philip Pape 20:46
Yeah, I want to explore that a bit. Have you? What is? Have you looked into the research on this? So we all understand that that life stress can affect our energy expenditure directly, right, because of just the way our body goes into a certain mode of preservation, and there's all the hormones and cortisol and everything else? I mean, what what is the research, say, if you've looked at it in something like a massive, you said, holding on to burdens, you thought you'd let go like that massive of a trauma you're sitting with that, then all of a sudden is off your shoulders? How does that cause your expenditure to come back up?
Allie Cass 21:17
Well, if you think about the, from, like a psychological perspective, that is a form of stress, which just not you know, this external, we think of stress is like my job or my relationship or my finances, but in reality, if that's what's going on in your mind at all times, that's signaling a stress response. So if I, you know, it's like, if you're driving your car, and you, I don't know if you've ever had this happen, where you're driving at night, and it's like, you're kind of tired and like you think you see an animal, like, run out and like across the road, but like, nothing's actually there. And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, and you get that like, hit of adrenaline, and you're like jazz, and you're like, Oh, my God, nothing was there, right? Like, I thought that I saw something. So it's what we think and what we seek can have that physical reaction in the body. So I haven't spent a ton of time in the literature, but from my understanding, and the education that I've gone through on the mind, body subject, and then with stress response, psychological thoughts, emotions, as well, every time we have a thought that produces an emotion, we release a neuropeptide, that creates a chemical reaction in the body. So that can either create stress within ourselves, or it can help alleviate stress, which is, you know, another reason why I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but like, when you're in a new relationship, or you're in a new job, something that you're really excited about, it's like your sleep can be like, totally crap, like you can be eating, like junk food, but you still feel really good. You're like hyped on life. You're like, whatever man like. Yeah. And so I think that what we go through internally, and even so like our perception of what we go through, I think plays into how we feel like a significant amount.
Philip Pape 22:53
That's good perception. Yeah, it's so true. Having like having good friends in your life, for example, I mean, there's a few relationships I've established through podcasting, where we'll send each other videos, and I'll get a video and they'll say something that just pumps me up and motivates me, I'm like, the whatever happened that day almost doesn't matter. Because now all of a sudden, you've got this fire in your brain and the energy that you didn't know where it came from. So you talked about perception, which I think of things like the fixed versus growth mindset, right? The constant curiosity, willingness to challenge ourselves, and then even even mastering our behaviors by mastering our thoughts, like, again, it all comes down to framing, you can't talk about framing. So what is your view of maybe we get philosophical here of mindset as a concept? How do we take action to level up the mindset, as you say, Talk Talk about that a little bit.
Allie Cass 23:44
So how do we take action to level up the mindset? That's a good question and strategies? So again, I think it you know, it kind of depends on the person and what they're looking to level up in their mindset. Is it just having more self awareness? Is it cultivating better self talk? I mean, I'm just a huge advocate of self awareness in the first place. I think that a lot of times we can sit down and be realistic with ourselves and say, like, and that's one of the hardest things for people as one of the hardest thing for me was to sit down and just be real. Like, we might think we're being truthful to everyone else, but like, are you telling yourself the truth and so being able to have that hard conversation with ourselves? I think once that awareness comes up, a lot of times the cascade of changes starts to naturally occur once that awareness is on the forefront. I'm really big into strategies like meditation and visualization. Not everybody resonates with those things I do because I'm like, I need to sit down and have quiet and still time. And so for me, that's really big. You know, even things like gratitude. It sounds so cliche I know that's everywhere. Now, you know, practice gratitude, but it's, it's really physically impossible to be like angry or to have negative emotions when you are genuinely feeling grateful for something. And so just kind of take for me personally taking myself back to those places. And acknowledging. Again, when I'm having a day, let's say where my mindset is not so great, or I am, you know, it's just one of those days where you're like, what else is gonna happen? Acknowledging that whatever is going on in my head that is not productive is there for a reason, you know, we always talk about to win, like the, the philosophical kind of woowoo side of the world. They're always like, you know, the ego death, I believe that the ego serves to protect us. And I think that's a beautiful thing. So I, when I feel my ego getting really like, you know, you're not good enough for Who were you to do this, I stopped for a second, I show gratitude for I say, Thank you for trying to keep me safe, but we're good. We've got this, like, what our life is not in danger. So like, please sit over there and be quiet. And when danger comes up, you can you can say something that and so, you know, I think acknowledging different parts of yourself going back to that self acceptance, and being grateful for those parts, but recognizing what's serving you or what isn't at any given time. can be very helpful.
Philip Pape 26:05
Okay, there's, there's a lot there. So you did talk about No, no, there's a lot there. I'm trying to figure out what you want to poke at. You talked about self awareness, what came to my mind was emotional intelligence, and how that's like the first part of self awareness. This theme comes up all the time. And the more I know, personally, the more uncomfortable I sit with, who I am and what I do to people, meaning if I ask somebody for honest feedback, which we rarely do, because it scares us what the answer is going to be. And, you know, nine out of 10, people are saying, like, you're awesome. And then that other person says, you know, this one thing you did? And of course, we focus on that, right. But it does allow us to put a lens back on ourselves and maybe get, just just get comfortable with who we are. I mean, you can kind of set it, whether it's a self reflection of the gratitude or journaling. Some people love that. And some people hate this stuff. And it's okay, find the thing that works for you. Yeah, yeah, we're getting deep here. But self awareness. Let's let's put that in a nutshell is kind of what it's all about. Yeah, absolutely.
Allie Cass 27:04
One other thing I would say too, is understanding the role that you play in any given situation. So I find it like funny if I had like a room full of women in front of me, and I just say women, because I work with women. And I was like, if I ask them to raise their hands on like, Who here is like a, you know, a self proclaimed control freak, like most of them would raise their hands like, I would raise my hand. And so like, I feel like as humans, we have this desire to have control over all these things that happen, when in reality, the only thing we can control is how we respond to a situation and the responsibility that we take from a situation regardless of if it's our fault or not. So if something can happen to us, it's not our fault. But it's our responsibility to decide what kind of meaning we're going to sign to that, and then how we're going to move forward. And so few people actually put that into practice. So I just find this like irony of people wanting to be in control. But the one thing that actually gives them control over their circumstances they refuse to do because it involves taking responsibility for a situation that oftentimes might not even be our fault. And maybe we don't like the situation, that's fine. But it's our responsibility to analyze that and figure out how we're going to move forward with it. And so that's another thing that like, taking radical ownership for my life, even when I'm like you, what just happened? Like that's been a game changer, because now I have the control to change it.
Philip Pape 28:19
Yeah, you are imagine, right? This moment is a reset, and you were just born into the world like you have all the control to do whatever happens next, regardless of what happened in the past. Yeah. And that's a common theme we hear a lot like with stoicism of whatever happened in the past, you can blame people you can do whatever, it doesn't matter. You're responsible in the future. And unfortunately, some people are in worse situations than others. But again, it doesn't matter. Start there and move forward. Right. Love it.
28:45
Hi, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach Philip pape, with his coaching I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in so the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunter guide and that really helped me so thank you below.
Philip Pape 29:29
Okay, so getting a little more nuts and bolts on maybe the fat loss conundrum thing that you have here. I like that. I like words like conundrum
Allie Cass 29:36
I know that was good.
Philip Pape 29:39
You did that's like your it's like your theme like everywhere? No, no, the fat loss conundrum, which is how hormones gut health and stress affect our metabolism. So you're right, you don't really explain what the conundrum is. So now I have you on the show to do that. To me, that means like it's the contradiction maybe between the improved health you get from losing fat and getting into a mat a manageable healthy weight, but also all the downregulation potential damage, not damage downregulation adaptation that occurs from maybe excessive fat loss that you experience with the extremes, right have either been very unhealthy or being unhealthy in the other direction with the bodybuilding career. Is that what you mean? Or is there something completely different with that?
Allie Cass 30:19
Yeah, no, that's that's definitely part of it. So I think that's a huge component, especially in the women's space where the narrative, oftentimes it's just eat less move more, yes, there are many people out there that do need to eat less and move more there are a lot of women who are maybe moving, maybe need to move more, but also need to eat more, because they have been told since they were children, young girls, you know, eat less, don't eat all your food when you go out for a date. Because, you know, nobody wants to look like they're eating all their food. I was not that person. I was like, I will order Second. Thank you. So that is part of it. But also the role that things like hormones, gut health, you know, your thyroid stress, what that that cortisol connection, how that actually impacts your metabolism and your ability to burn fat. So really, I think the conundrum there at a very high level for people is just understanding that all of these things affect your ability to lose fat, they affect your metabolism, your metabolism is a dynamic thing, right? As you mentioned, metabolic adaptation, it adapts down, it adapts upward. It adapts to the inputs that it's receiving, which is an amazing thing from a survival perspective. But I see women a lot of times who don't think you know, they I have clients all the time, who will have signs and symptoms of some level of hormone imbalance. And I'm like, hey, maybe we should get your blood work done. Or let's check this out. And most of them are receptive to it. But every now and then I'll have someone who's like, no, that's, that's not it's not a big deal. Or people downplay the role that their stress plays, let's say, they're like, Well, you know, like, I've been doing this for 12 weeks, and I can't seem to lose fat, and everything's on point, but Oh, my God, I run my own business. I work 80 hours a week, and I'm a single mom, and like, my life is miserable. But no, no, no, no, no, I meditation, I don't need to do that. Or I don't need to like, you know, delegate some stuff. That's fine. It's not that. So what should I do for nutrition? And I'm like, tell
Philip Pape 32:07
me my macros. Scenario. Yes, yeah.
Allie Cass 32:11
And I similarly, I've had people with like, pretty severe gut issues that exactly I'm like, we really need to visit this as a foundation first, because your fat loss efforts are going to be much easier once we address these things. And again, yes, they're like, no, no, no, I've done that before. I just need exactly I need you to tell me what my macros are. Like, I will not do that. So it is that intersection, right, like everything is integrated within the body and within the mind and the body. So I just think that people in general, need to learn that even though in a Western setting, you know, we segment different systems of the body, or different parts of the body for ease of teaching, or for ease of treating in a Western setting. But the reality is, is that when something is dysfunctional in one system, or in one organ, it's going to have downstream effects that are going to affect other things. So if you have five different things going on, regardless of where it started, they're all interconnected, in some sense. And if your goal is fat loss, and you have dysfunction in these different areas, your fat loss efforts, if they happen are going to happen with much more restriction, it's going to be a lot harder, you're not going to enjoy the process, it's not going to be as easy as it could otherwise be.
Philip Pape 33:21
Yeah, so I'm guessing you go you take clients through some sort of pre diet, maintenance, or prep, or whatever phase we call it to try to, at least regularly or normalize these as best as possible.
Allie Cass 33:32
100%. If I see that there's dysfunction first, every now and then I get someone that comes in, and they already have a really good base, and we can just kind of hit the ground running. But yeah, it's it's addressing gut dysfunction it is addressing do we need to spend time balancing hormones do we need to feed you up so that you're not living on you know, 1000 calories a day, and I have to go into a cut at 600 calories, which I would never do, because I wasn't gonna do that myself. And it is it's an The unfortunate thing is that it's not sexy for a lot of people, right? Like they want to come in and they want that like, well, you know, Suzy on Instagram told me, I could like lose 12 pounds of fat and eight weeks. And I'm like, that's because Susie's just selling you a standard program. And she's not looking at any of this. So the reality is, is that it's probably going to take longer, because we really need to fix this first. And I'm very transparent with clients that like, I will not run your body into the ground for the sake of you achieving an aesthetic goal. So if you can't spend time being in this, this phase, I just call it a health first phase, right? We're just building your foundation and then we're going to build your house. If you can't build the foundation, then don't expect to have a nice house.
Philip Pape 34:36
Yeah, love it. I mean, any I guess on the other side, it's really satisfying when someone says, Well, there's one small tweak, you know, having some electrolytes or you know, starting a probiotic or just getting the extra half hour sleep. All of a sudden, everything started to move, you know, it's just better. Let's, let's talk about health. Right, because that's Yeah, I think it's still misunderstood topic. It's one of those. I'll say newer topic. that are being explored where where we actually don't understand a lot about science, you know, from the evidence. And there's a lot of research going on. So how can we even if we don't know it, all right, we could at least have practical strategies for dealing with it, improving our digestion, improving our microbiome biota? How would you summarize this whole thing, and maybe the top two or three high impact actions people can take. So
Allie Cass 35:22
without having any background, so I know everybody listening is going to be like, Well, I have, you know, I have bloating, or I get some gas or you know, whatever it is, but without knowing any of those things. And I've had clients where we've been on extensive gut protocols, and I can tell you those things, or they have a time in place, if needed. But what makes the most impact for so many people is not eating in a like not eating while you're on the run, sitting down, like trying to recenter yourself, shifting into a parasympathetic state, taking some deep breaths before you eat, which I know for a lot of people, if you're, if you want a business, if you work full time, and you're in meetings all day, that can be really difficult. But just not eating when your body is in a some sort of stressed out or sympathetic state can be wondrous for your digestive tract. Because when you are, go, go go and you're in a sympathetic state, your body is not prioritizing digestion, because in its mind, it thinks that we are fighting against a stressor, whatever that means. And so I think, for people, something like that can be really impactful. And along the lines of sitting down and slowing down to eat your food, chewing your food thoroughly, not inhaling, taking, like three bites, and then being like, oh, gotta swallow that one. You also have a more pleasurable eating experience, when you actually sit down, calm down, take the time, taste your food, savor the sensations. And that can help prevent overeating as well, when you actually slow down and you take the time to enjoy your food. And it's better for digestion. So, people are always like, yeah, digestion begins, you know, in the gut, or in the stomach, and it's like, no, then you have people who are like digestion begins in the mouth, because we secrete enzymes in our saliva. And it's like, no, it actually doesn't it begins in the mind, right? Like, have you ever been like, like, late at night, you're like, sitting on the couch, and like a Wendy's commercial comes up, which is like, I've not had Wendy's in probably eight years, but every now and then they get me and I'm like, Oh my God, that kind of looks good right now. And your your watch, or your mouth starts to water, you know, or, you know, you go into a bakery and close up of the juicy burger. Exactly, yeah. So it's just that visual, right then is producing saliva, which has enzymes, kickstarting what your body thinks to be the digestive process based on the input that you're getting it from what you're seeing. So it begins in the mind. So sitting down, looking at your food, giving yourself a second that can be really impactful for gut health. And then doing more low impact activity like walking especially after meals super beneficial, not just for stabilizing blood sugar, but for helping your body with digestion. So I can tell you, I've had clients on you know, I've done a whole four or five, our protocol with them, we've gone super deep, we've done a GI map, we know what's going on what, what pathogens are in there. And it's like, what has had the most profound effect was eating and eating in a parasympathetic state, chewing their food more, going for walks, after meals, slowing down. You know those things so without, you know, anyone who's listening that feels like you have got issues without doing a deep dive into what you have just start there. And I guarantee you, you'll make some progress of some sort.
Philip Pape 38:25
Oh, I love it. This is really good, because well, I want to dissect both of them but but the general idea that a lot of these things we think are big problems that have to be dissected to the nth degree often have a big simple solution that we're just not doing or refusing to do or not aware that we need to do right all of the above I've can be easily accused often just rushing through the kitchen, grabbing whatever I need to grab and trying to eat it because I've got a million things to do. And like you said, mindfulness is a potential cure to digestion which are digestive issues which we talked about mindful eating all the time, but it's like always this whoo thing of I don't even know how it's justified usually it's it's in the context of you're going to eat last or something like that right and for digestion, which a lot of people experience I love that the walking would you say there's so I like walk into I talk about all the time like walk as much as you can walk before meals after meals like pacing around the house when you're on the phone. Is it after a meal before meal when's like the best time to walk when we're talking about digestion if there is
Allie Cass 39:27
so I've not actually seen and there could be research on walking before meals. I haven't actually taken a look to dive into that but there's a lot on walking postprandial so after your meal, to help with the digestive process and to help with blood sugar. So if you're eating something and it's causing a blood sugar spike going for a walk can help kind of stabilize that as well. And so all the research I've seen partially because that's what I've sought out is after post meal like 1520 minutes, nothing super intense. You don't need to go for a power walk. Just a nice leisurely walk down the street, around your house, whatever.
Philip Pape 40:00
Yeah, and you know, Brandon Cruz's big fan of like talking about that with compared to Smith Metformin, the type two diabetes drug and its whole high flux lifestyle does is there a court so what's Is there a correlation between blood sugar than indigestion? I'm really asking these.
Allie Cass 40:17
These are great questions I'm like, okay, just so everyone knows as at the time we're recording this. It's Friday, so my brain was like I I'm not sure I'm trying to think back if I've seen anything. But again, it's not something that I've purposely sought out. But I think I might, that might be a takeaway from it, we should look that up. We should look that up, and then come back for round two.
Philip Pape 40:38
There we go. Awesome. Cool. So all right. So stress, you mentioned stress as the other piece of this, besides besides hormones, stress management. And my question was going to be like your practices for effectively managing stress. And now that we've talked a lot about it, you know, you talked about the different I guess, layers of life stress, there's the really deep stuff that's just sitting with you, for years. Then there's the situational stress, like you have a job, a family, and so on. And I always like to tell people, like, there's certain things you can't control, there are certain things you can, but there's probably things you think you can't, that you can, like, you can change your job, you can move, there are big decisions and big changes. But if something is so chronic, that it's just beating you down, and this is your health, think about it, right? Whatever, what are your thoughts on all these different layers of stress, and then just managing stress in a doable way for people
Allie Cass 41:30
100% I mean, I think all of the layers of stress are very valid. And again, depending on the person, I think, starting with what might be something that's manageable, manageable for them, right. And I think you know, talking about stress, we can also look at internal stressors as well, things like inflammation and things like having type two diabetes, and having blood sugar that's off the charts like that is a form of stress to the body. So you can manage a lot of stress from an internal perspective with the proper changes to nutrition, exercise, lifestyle, things like that. But for those other things, the the relationships, the jobs, the trauma, and the emotions, potentially, that we're carrying from the past. I think they all play a role. And I think at some point, they all need to be addressed. However, I think, with anything, personally, a plan or whatever route forward has to be feasible in some sense for somebody. So it doesn't matter if it's exercise, nutrition, trust management, if I give you the best plan in the world, but you can't, at least effectively execute some of it, then it doesn't matter how good the plan so I, I really, when I work with people, I really try to take an individualized approach. So I have a client right now who unfortunately, her mother has cancer, and she is a caregiver. And so that's actually something we're actively working on right now is okay, we might not be able to control, you know, what is going on with our mom. And we have to show up at various times to be that support. But what can we control, we can control our self talk, we can control the foods we can consume, we can control our bedtime most of the time, you know, when we have extra time we can control are we doing? are we including movement? What are we doing? So I think stress management looks different for different people at different stages in life. And it just has to be something that's feasible. So for instance, like I mentioned, I love meditating, meditating, I love sitting in stillness, because my days can feel kind of scattered and crazy and a lot of interacting. And sometimes I need that to recharge. So for me, that's a form of stress management, going for a walk, that can be another form of stress management. And so I think for people finding something that feels good to them, and that can look different. And that might look different for you at different stages of life, as well. But I do think, you know, like you mentioned, there are a lot of things that we think are out of our control that they're not, but they're big decisions. And sometimes we don't want to face those things. And when I work with clients, I try again, I see my role a lot of times is just bringing up the self awareness and then helping clients choose which path we're going to take now it's up to them to decide if that's what they want to do. I would never tell somebody, you should quit your job, even though sometimes I want to. But just to bring up the fact that like, wow, like, I never realized that I a lot of my stress actually is stemming from my job, is there something else I can do instead? Let's explore that. And so I think that, again, going back to that self self ownership and taking responsibility for what's going on in our lives gives us a lot more power to change it. But I do think that all of those stressors need to be addressed, but it's like anything, right? Like, if there's 10 stressors once we start peeling it layer by layer, we might find that the other things aren't having as much impact on us when we don't have that that's pile stacking on top of it.
Philip Pape 44:47
Yeah, that's so I'm sure there's like a there's a threshold you know, he does you it's so funny, a client asked the other day, like he's like I have some extra free time. What can I do to just de stress and I'm like, you know Ask yourself a question like, What did I what am I really love to do? That I haven't done in a while, you know, and that you just think back to it just gave you so much joy, maybe forget everything like, it could be simple things. I love doing karaoke with my daughters now at night sometimes before they go to bed. And it's just like, you know, my brain is into the music and dancing with them and just like sharing the microphone and like, not everything goes away. Right? What is that for you? If you're listening, you know, and, and like you said, we have to help you choose what it is, your coach or somebody else is not going to tell you what that is. But the self awareness is where it's at?
Allie Cass 45:35
Absolutely. That's actually a question I asked in my intake form is What is something you used to do either as a child or just in general that you don't do anymore? Because you know, adult responsibilities and like, oftentimes, that's a homework item. It's like, take one hour. And if it's feasible, go do it. Like I started doing adult gymnastics about five months ago, because I love trampolines. And I love doing backflips. And it brings me a ton of joy. Yeah,
Philip Pape 45:56
I need to start playing my saxophone again. I used to play jazz. And for years, that's how I met my wife. Amazing. My kids are now playing instruments, and they don't see me play. And I'm like, that's a missed opportunity for all of us. So there you go. Maybe that's I don't want to commit to now. That's your homework for the week. It's my homework. Cool. All right, I want to touch on you have some time, right little the body positivity. Let's get into that very non controversial topic for a bit. Okay. And we talked about this health centric approach to wellness, and balancing you we talked about acceptance and self love and then striving for more, and even striving for a lot more depends on what that is to you. But it could be in your case, in that period of life where you strove for a physique, a certain physique, right? And it could be somebody trying to be super strong and compete or whatever. Maybe we've already touched this, but how do you? How do you help clients overcome that negative body image? self criticism? You know, did we already I guess we already covered this,
Allie Cass 46:53
we kind of want to talk about it a little more? Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. So again, first, starting with where is this? What is the dialogue? First off? And where is it coming from? Is that genuinely what you believe about yourself? Is that what you were told, growing up, you know, does this stem from, like, I didn't receive enough love as a child. So I feel like I have to look or present a certain way in order to get that. So helping clients kind of dissect where that's coming from, for me helps shift my strategy. I mean, I've had, I've had clients go through exercises where I have them stand in front of a mirror, and they just let whatever thoughts come up naturally about their body. And when if it's like, I hate my midsection, I have them actually spend time focusing and setting an intention to shift the narrative around their midsection. And so you know, it just kind of depends on the person.
Philip Pape 47:45
How do you do that? So if they said I hate my midsection, what what's the Oh,
Allie Cass 47:49
yeah, so this is them actually, in the exercise. So I don't I let them do this on their own. I'm like, you don't have to share unless you feel comfortable. But I actually have them repeat affirmations to themselves of it. It's not I you know, I love my midsection, right? Because if we hate something, and we try to pretend like we love it, like our minds, like Yeah, right, like you lie. But again, just going back to that acceptance, starting to say I accept you as you are, I'm working to change you, but I accept you as you are now. So just focusing on that acceptance. Also helping clients shift the focus to what their body is doing for them and can do for them. So one of the it sounds so silly, but one of the most profound moments for me in my journey of this body positivity or self love, acceptance, whatever you want to call it. So sitting on my couch one day, I think I'd had like a glass or two of wine. I like a nice wine every now and then.
Philip Pape 48:38
Me to
Allie Cass 48:42
wine at a jazz concert. That actually sounds really nice. So yeah. But yeah, I was thinking about just from a cellular perspective, how our body is constantly just trying to keep us in homeostasis. And it was like, it felt so silly. But I had this lightbulb moment of like, wow, every time I do something, whether it's have a glass of wine or eat something that I know is not really health promoting, my body is working 24/7 for the duration of my entire life, to basically take the things that I do, that aren't conducive to my health and bring me back into that homeostasis. So I can be healthy. And I was like, holy cow, like, like, if that is not love. I don't know what is right. Like, how many of us you as a parent, right? You show up for your kids day in and day out because you love them our bodies are doing for this, us doing this for us, our entire lives. No matter how we talk to it, no matter how we look at it, no matter what kind of trash we expose ourselves to. It's constantly showing up for us to make us healthy. And I was like, literally on my couch like, I'm not crying, you're crying like like it was just such a beautiful moment of like, wow, we live in this vessel that is just, it's constantly working for us, even when we have symptoms that don't feel good. And we think like, you know, I hear that narrative all the time. Like my body hates me Are, my body's doing this? It doesn't. And so just shifting the narrative around that and realizing that no matter what you're going through, your body is always trying to work in your favor, we just need to help it along that process.
Philip Pape 50:12
That's so good. I'm imagining like a visual here imagining like a line, a spectrum, right? Where there's the equilibrium in the middle, and your body's already trying to always trying to get you back there. And we, you know, make choices that that push it away and push it away and push it away. And it's trying to get this back. So if we weren't cool with it, we give it a helping hand, right? And if it's if the result is not what you want, and there's something else in our control that we might have to go after, it is a great way to look at it.
Allie Cass 50:39
Yeah. And if you think about it as like a friend or a loved one, like, if your loved one was constantly trying to help you and bring you back, and you were like, Oh, you're ugly, and fat, and I don't like you like, like, when you think about it like that you're like I would never speak to you know, a person I love like that. And so for me, that was just really a really big mindset shift. And so I tried to help clients with that. And then, you know, the last thing that is really I feel like a missing component for clients is helping them focus on performance, right? So all, every single one of my clients right now wants to be able to do pull ups, which I think is amazing, because I do pull up. So when I finally could do pull ups, I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. So focusing on like, yes, we're working on our fat loss goals, right? But let's focus on like feeling badass in our bodies, like, because that's what's really cool. Honestly, at the end of the day, it's
Philip Pape 51:27
huge. You know? So speaking of that, I actually wanted to ask you about a specific scenario. Do you work with teenagers? Teenage girls like 1617?
Allie Cass 51:34
I don't specialize in that I do. I don't have any on my roster right now.
Philip Pape 51:39
Because I'm just curious about your thoughts about that. If you had like, let's say a 16 year old who's who's an average bodyweight, right, lean, whatever you want to call it, and she wants she comes with you wanting to improve our physique. And we don't have any trauma going on, right, or disorders going on? What approach would you take? Would it be a performance based approach a habit based approach, we're not really focused so much on the things that maybe an adult could write, let's say,
Allie Cass 52:03
I mean, I would probably take a mix of those approach, I would probably I would work on habits for sure. Just because I don't think kids or teenagers, unless you have a great parental like, example. They're not taught healthy habits. So I think just from the purpose of carrying them into adulthood, with with good habits, is something instrumental. And I mean, I was not the best, but that's one thing I learned in sports and athletics that I'm just so so grateful for. So I think I would focus on that. But I think I would focus more on performance in the greeting with someone who's 15 1617, right, like, I mean, I could give them a workout plan, let's say that's going to give them a physique that they want. And I could make it about performance, and they're still going to get the physique they want, because their bodies are like so resilient, and so adaptive. But from like, the mental perspective, I wouldn't be focusing on like, Yeah, girl, like, let's get you sexy, and shredded. Like I would never, I mean, I don't really talk like that anyway. But that would never be my verbiage with someone
Philip Pape 52:59
who is like, let's have let's have fun. Instead, here's your
Allie Cass 53:02
right, let's have fun. Let's feel strong. Like, yes, if that was their goal, that would be baked into it. But that wouldn't be the way I presented, if that makes sense. So I would very much be like, like, let's have like, you know, what's something that your friends can't do that you won't be able to do? Right? Like, how can you be like, the one in the group who, you know, you guys go to the club and, like, those guys over there are afraid to come talk to you guys. Because you're like, you look like you've worked on us or something. You know, like, what can we do to make sure like that? So
Philip Pape 53:30
love that. Okay, yeah. And I was just curious. So you do have this mission to help women live fully alive. And again, the image, something that comes to my mind is like the fog being lifted, having this vitality, this energy's mental clarity. What does that concept mean to you? Because we didn't really touch on that phraseology that you use, and how do you measure the impact on someone who isn't fully alive? And you want to get them there?
Allie Cass 53:55
Absolutely. So for me, it's about whatever your ideal life looks like, how can we get you there using the tools of nutrition and fitness lifestyle, and oftentimes, like, I like to connect clients with other resources that they need to get to that point, even if it's another person if it's just helping them with a different life transition. So where that stems from that phrase, when my mom passed, she was super just turned six years old. She had worked her entire life. She was kind of the breadwinner for much of my life from my parents. My dad had some health issues and so he wasn't able to work from the time I was like 10 years old, until he passed in 2020. And so my mom was like the one who kind of took care of everything. She was probably one of the hardest working people I've ever met in my life. But she was so great. She never really asked for help. And she was just such a you know, that kind of image of like a really strong woman now I think it would be a whole nother topic for another podcast could be the detriment of that right of not asking for help. However, she had this vision When she retired when she was only a few years from that her and my dad, they had a cabin in northern Arizona in the mountains, they were living in Phoenix at the time when she was sick. And she had this vision of you know, we're going to retire, we're going to go spend time in the mountains, we're going to travel we're going to spend time with my sister has three boys, and then my oldest sister has a daughter. So we're gonna go travel to Atlanta and spend time with the grandkids and this and that. And she never got to do that, you know, she got started feeling bad one day, went to the hospital, and basically got told you have 18 months max to live. And so I realized from that situation that we can't live life afraid of when we're gonna die. But the reality is, is that we never know when that's going to happen. So I tried to check in with myself and ask myself, if I found out that I was going to die in six months, would I be happy and content with the way that I've been living my life so far? And can I look back and say, wow, like, maybe I didn't get to do every single thing that I wanted to, I have no regrets. And I have been, like, fully present in this life for the time that I've given. And I see so many people, women and men alike who cruise through their day like zombies, because they're unhappy with what they're doing. They feel like crap. They wake up on Monday, and they cannot wait for it to be Friday afternoon. So they can live for those two days that they don't have to go to work. They don't have to do anything. They can sit around, eat, drink, do whatever they want. And I just think it's so sad. Like, I can't imagine living that way. And looking back when I'm 80. And thinking, holy cow, I've been here for eight years. And that's what I've been doing for most of it. So when I am helping women, yes, it's about getting healthier. Yes. It's about you know, conquering their fitness goals, whatever that means to them. But the reality is, is if what we're doing isn't serving to make you better, so you can live this freaking epic life, whatever that means to you. Even if that means like, I just want more time and energy to send my kids with my family. Like, I love the job that I'm at awesome. Like, let's keep doing it. That's my goal, right? Because I want people to look back when they're at and think like, damn, this has been a good ride. Like, I feel good about this. Not wow, I was given this chance. And I didn't make the most of it. I think that's like, the saddest thing ever, like breaks my heart thinking about it.
Philip Pape 57:20
So good ally. So I mean, people who are listening this is this is not about a physical transformation, right? This is not about changing something in the short term. This is like if you're gonna die in less than two years, if you don't what you want to do and then even longer than that, would you like to live? You know, if you're going to live for many years? How do you want to thrive doing that? Yeah, really good. Ally. Okay, so here's the second to last question. I like to ask all guests unless you're prepared for it or not, but
Allie Cass 57:45
I hit me.
Philip Pape 57:48
What one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Allie Cass 57:52
Oh, my gosh, um, it's so funny. I'm, I'm never someone that really I don't really like enter into anything with any kind of expectation. So I did not have any questions that you didn't ask. But you didn't ask me what? Well, I guess I already answered. You didn't ask me what my thing that brings me joy that I used to do that. I don't, it's okay. But I went ahead and answered, I was like, Whatever I'll ask myself and that that was doing adult gymnastics. I also love hiking. I love being in nature. I'm actually I will already have my camper van when this release is I'm sure I'm in the process of getting a camper van right now. So I'm going to do some traveling in that which is very exciting. So yeah, I love exploring. I love seeing new things, trying new things.
Philip Pape 58:34
positive way to end and anyone listening like think about the same thing for you What brings you joy. Okay, Ally. So where can listeners learn more about you and your work?
Allie Cass 58:44
Yes. So I am on Instagram at ally cast health or you can visit my website www dot alleycats health.com You can read more about me my program and if you'd like to connect, I'd love to hear from you.
Philip Pape 58:55
Awesome. So I will include your Instagram and website in the show notes so listeners can find you. And Allie, thank you so much for bringing the fire and the energy today. Absolutely. Thank
Allie Cass 59:05
you so much for having me.
Philip Pape 59:06
It was awesome. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 78: Stress-Free Macro Tracking, Nerding Out on Metabolism, and Fitness Science with Greg Nuckols
Today I'm sitting down with Greg Nuckols to talk about lifting, MacroFactor, and science. You'll learn what he's been up to lately, his take on lifting and life, and all things MacroFactor. We'll also explore how to be consistent and maybe even enjoy tracking your nutrition, incorporating scientific research into your health and fitness routine, and other words of wisdom.
Today I'm sitting down with Greg Nuckols to talk about lifting, MacroFactor, and science. You'll learn what he's been up to lately, his take on lifting and life, and all things MacroFactor. We'll also explore how to be consistent and maybe even enjoy tracking your nutrition, incorporating scientific research into your health and fitness routine, and other words of wisdom.
Greg Nuckols lifts weights, writes about lifting weights, and coaches people who want to get better at lifting weights.
With an MA in Exercise and Sports Science and three all-time powerlifting world records, he co-hosts the Stronger by Science Podcast. It's a must-listen for enthusiasts who love exploring cutting-edge research on lifting, nutrition, and more, delivered with a unique blend of humor and world-building.
Greg is, of course, the co-founder and Head of Content at Stronger by Science and the co-founder of MacroFactor, the food-logging app that I use personally and can’t stop talking about.
Finally, Greg has been a pivotal inspiration in my personal journey of health and this very podcast.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[1:56] Balancing personal and professional life
[4:33] Current personal lifting routine and goals
[8:04] Bringing fun into life and fitness pursuits
[14:03] Update on the Feats of Strength
[16:00] Trends in powerlifting
[24:18] Listener stories and their impact on the MacroFactor team
[31:17] Progress toward achieving MacroFactor's vision
[33:52] Addressing common objections to tracking nutrition and weight
[40:45] One of the things that set MacroFactor apart from other tracking apps
[50:11] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[50:56] Underrated features and usage tips for MacroFactor
[56:15] Personal experience with long-term fat loss using MacroFactor
[1:19:29] Selection process for topics on Stronger by Science
[1:21:14] Personal methods for staying updated with the latest research
[1:24:20] The value of the MacroFactor community
[1:35:35] Learn more about Greg
[1:37:46] Outro
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Transcript
Greg Nuckols 00:00
You do need some system to at least get a rough idea of how much energy you're burning per day in order to do that, because like if you're, you're going to be in a deficit. That's, that means eating fewer calories and you're burning it and you need to have a rough idea of how many calories you're burning.
Philip Pape 00:20
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm sitting down with Greg knuckles to talk about lifting macro factor and science. You'll learn what he's been up to lately, his take on lifting and life and all things macro factor. We'll explore how to be consistent maybe how to enjoy tracking your food, how to incorporate research into your health and fitness routine and other words of wisdom he might have for us. Greg knuckles, lifts weights, writes about lifting weights and coaches, people who want to get better at lifting weights. He has an MA in exercise and sports science and has held three all time world records in powerlifting. He also co hosts the stronger by science podcast, which you should absolutely have in your feed if you enjoy digging into the latest research on lifting nutrition and many other topics delivered with a unique blend of humor. And I'll say world building. Greg is of course the co founder and head of content at stronger by science and the co founder of macro factor, the food logging app that I use personally and can't stop talking about. And finally Greg has been a pivotal inspiration in my personal journey of health and this very podcast. So Greg, thank you very much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. So first question really is how do you do it? All right, because you have a lot going on. You're very engaged online, you've spoken about the need to balance things. And I think that ties nicely with stress management, mindfulness. I know it's mental health awareness month and all those things. shed some light on how you balance everything right now. Oh, yeah. That
Greg Nuckols 02:16
that that maybe wasn't the best framing device for this question. The whole the whole mindfulness and mental health awareness. You'll know, I mean, I work a lot. I mean, there's a look, man,
Philip Pape 02:32
I ask these questions, because it's selfish for me to I'm like, What do you how do you do it? Because I need to figure it out. It's all good. Yeah.
Greg Nuckols 02:37
See, I mean, I work a lot, just a lot of hours. And yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, so two things, just to kind of I wasn't gonna say did not necessarily like disabuse you of the notion that I get a lot done, but just like some, some considerations that make it a little bit easier. One is that, like, I, I pay people to do things that I used to do that are relatively time consuming, but aren't necessarily as like public facing. So you know, like, I externally got less done when I still responded to like, all of the support emails for the various businesses I run, but now we have people handling the support emails for us, like, you know, just little things like that, like, take, take some of the administrative tasks off my plate. Speaking of which, the person who does support emails for stronger by science and macro factor is Adam Fisher. And Adam is incredible. I can't can't speak highly, highly enough of Batum. Um, and yeah, I mean, I'm married, but no kids. And so, no, that's a large obligation that a lot of people have that I that I don't, which allows me to work more, get more done. But yeah, I mean, you know, so there's some, like, kind of like structural and lifestyle factors in play. And yeah, beyond that, I get a lot done because I work.
Philip Pape 04:30
I asked, I know there's a lot of like, entrepreneurs probably listen to this show, you know, guys who want to live but are super busy. And I get it, like, you've always been really responsive, even to me, early on, I remember asking you questions, whether it was macro factor lifting thing or whatever, I'm like, wow, Greg actually got back to me personally, you know, and which was kind of cool. So I and you had that phase of your business and now you're in a different phase. It just came to mind, you know, just just seeing everything you do. So what about what about your lifting right now? What does that routine look like? And are you going after specific goals for Uh,
Greg Nuckols 05:00
yeah, not not as much lifting these days, honestly, you know, still still hitting the upper body pretty hard. I had been having hip and back issues for a while. The back issues that was like an old freak injury happened when I was like, 16. Like, I know how to manage that work around it, like that was fine. But then maybe like, three years ago, I started having hip issues as well. And I think I can trace it back to when I started playing more basketball again. So I so I, before I got really into powerlifting, basketball was my primary sport. And I was I was quite good at it. But the last time I had played pretty seriously, I was like, 160 pounds and trying to play the same game at like, 250 is I did at 160. A little bit tougher on my body, because I played like a pretty a pretty, like, violent, like slashing, like offensive game, like a lot of change of directions. fast acceleration, deceleration, which, you know, like the forces you're you're putting on your body scale with the body mass you have and just the amount of force you're capable of developing. And so I was a lot heavier and a lot stronger. And I don't think my right hip labrum was was ready to deal with that. So, okay, yeah, I
Philip Pape 06:37
mean, I can relate, I can relate right hip, exact same thing.
Greg Nuckols 06:40
Yeah. So it's, it's unfortunate. It's, it's put my my lower body training, not unpause. But like, kind of on the backburner. I mean, I don't want to exacerbate it and make it worse. So I'm probably gonna have to get just like a little laparoscopic surgery this winter. Okay,
Philip Pape 07:01
so it's a torn labrum where they might have to like do the screen or whatever it is. Yeah,
Greg Nuckols 07:05
they did like a like a MRI arthrogram type of thing. And they said it looked like torn labrum maybe a little cyst on the head of of my femur. Maybe some FAI in the mix as well. So, yeah, like that hip, overall is just like kind of janky. So I'll, I'll probably get into lower body trading a bit more seriously again, after that, we'll get cleaned up. But yeah, I mean, upper body is still hitting it hard, but like pretty, pretty boring stuff. I guess. Like just sort of like bodybuilding type of stuff.
Philip Pape 07:46
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it having to work around these things. I am convinced that my hip issue came from hip thrusts because they were so new to me like this is like a couple years ago, after getting back from my own back surgery, and getting back into lifting and just hitting everything really hard again, which is always the best thing to do. But yeah, so basketball. Do you have a dog in the race for the finals? Or for the what's going on now? Man, I
Greg Nuckols 08:10
really hope the heat knock off the Celtics. Okay, all right. I would love either. Yo, get your Jimmy to get a title of the two. I don't know. So if I was like scripting the NBA, which currently no one is like the the writer strike is happening. And I guess they're just like actually playing the games these days. That's a joke. That's a joke. TV writers don't script the NBA. It is of course, the refs as we learned from Tim Donaghy. kind of joking about that as well. Although watching some of the playoff games, it's i It makes me skeptical. You know? Yeah,
Philip Pape 08:55
I'm with you, man. Especially when it doesn't go your way. You're just like some of those.
Greg Nuckols 09:00
Scott foster Chris Paul games are pretty pretty wacky. I think that's probably just like personal malice, instead of necessarily trying to like swing the bat in lines, but who knows? Who knows.
Philip Pape 09:12
So you like the heat or you want the Celtics to get knocked off?
Greg Nuckols 09:17
I want the Celtics to get knocked off. So that was a very long preamble of saying if if everything went right, I don't I don't have that much faith in the heats roster like I think I think they're, I think they're a good team, but I think that they just like perennially overperform and I think Erik Spoelstra is a really really great playoff coach, but I I'm just skeptical that they have the talent to keep going back to the finals year over year, but I think I think the nuggets have that. So I kind of want the heat to get through. So like in my perfect scenario, the heat give By the Celtics win the finals. And then I think I think Denver is building a juggernaut. So I think if the Heat won this year, the the nuggets have a championship, where there'll be contending for the next three or four years. So I want both of those teams to win a title. And for that to happen, I think the heat winning this this year would probably give it the the highest probability of both teams eventually winning one but in my non perfect scenario, I would want Denver to win this year just I just love yo kitch man, he's a pleasure to watch.
Philip Pape 10:35
Yeah, yeah. Well, before we started recording, you said, you know, if someone had a dog you'd like them more. Well, I grew up in South Florida so I've always been a heat fan. So that's that's the right answer. Greg.
Greg Nuckols 10:49
They got something special going down there. Erik Spoelstra might be the most underrated just like single person in the NBA. Like yeah, they're the the whole thing about the heat having like four undrafted players playing heavy minutes like I think that's that storylines a little bit overblown in the media but I mean they do man just just looking at at the talent that they have on their roster compared to certainly the Celtics who they're playing now. And when up three Oh on but also just the teams that have been eliminated to this point. Like I think I think that the undrafted players, they got word definitely like diamonds in the rough that had been underrated in that in the reason they went undrafted, like you know they're good players. But yeah, I just think the heat have in a general sense just less talent on their roster. Yeah, what a great teams they've been playing against, but they they just win like Spoelstra gets so much talent out of them. And I mean, this isn't even the most, like obscene ly bad roster he's been working with and getting production out of like, I remember after, after LeBron went back to Cleveland, in Wave retired, like, those are two incredibly valuable players that they got nothing back from, like LeBron just walked in free agency. And, and Wade retired. And Bosh was like starting to get some age on him, like he lost a snap as well. So like, if you have to star players like you have to, like supermax contract slots, and those players leave and you get nothing in return. That is the kiss of death for just about every franchise. You know, you're looking at a decade of purgatory before you come back for sure. And the heat had like one down year and then we're I think, man, my memory is hazy, but I think they were I think they I think like the second year after LeBron left, they they either had like a 51 win season or we're on a 50 win pace, before Vin Bosch had to retire because he was getting blood clots in his legs this randomly. But yeah, I mean that that was a roster of Scrubs that he either led to the playoffs or got very close to the playoffs. And then yeah, your third star player also just has to retire prematurely. You get nothing in return for that. And give it like another another two years and they're good again, like that's, that's wizardry, and I think like the GM in front office are very smart. But I think a lot of that is just Erik Spoelstra being an unbelievably good coach, and just being able to get wins out of any roster he's working with.
Philip Pape 13:42
Yeah, yeah, we'll see what happens, man. We'll see. I don't know when this show comes out, and probably still be in the finals. Few weeks from now. So we'll see how it goes. Greg.
Greg Nuckols 13:50
Also, I am very sensitive to the fact that this isn't a basketball pie. Oh, no, it's
Philip Pape 13:55
cool. You know, it sounds good. It
Greg Nuckols 13:56
sounds good tennis finals are coming up. I've been watching a lot of basketball. I'm very much in that headspace.
Philip Pape 14:03
Yeah, well, okay, so since we're talking about high performers out there, one of the segments I've been missing for a while on your show is the feats of strength and I was just curious if you knew any lately, that people should be aware of,
Greg Nuckols 14:15
um, man, the I don't have the numbers right on the tip of my tongue, but I think the nuttiest performance that I've seen in probably at least the last year maybe last two years was Hey Zeus, Allah viruses total that he put together at at the Sheffield. I mean, he he beat the total record pretty handily looked like he had more in the tank on certainly his deadlift. And I mean, he's, he's still young, and super heavies generally peak, like late When he's early 30s He's what like 24. Crazy. So that performance itself was freaking who's sorry, I cut you off. We're
Philip Pape 15:09
talking about his total. No, no, no, it's total 11 52.5. That was in March, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it was a big jump. Yeah. From, like, 4%. More. Yeah. Awesome.
Greg Nuckols 15:20
So that was, in and of itself a nutty performance and is just, I think, I think just like an in, like a, like an appetizer to what is to come from him. Like I just just putting together a total like that at his age is, is bonkers. And I expect, like, I wouldn't be surprised if he push the record another. I mean, at least 50 kilos. I mean, maybe 100 kilos over the next, like, eight years or so. Like, it's, it's like the number the numbers themselves are crazy. But then what?
Philip Pape 16:00
Yeah, what I mean, so what do you think explain Is it is it genetics is what explains this, when you have the step changes? I mean, just in general, in the history of mankind going with these huge, huge leaps? Yeah, I mean, I
Greg Nuckols 16:12
think it's, I think it's mostly genetics. So one of the one of the trends you see, one of the trends you're seeing in powerlifting. Now, and historically you see in, in various sports, is that I think that there's just kind of like an innate human desire to chalk things up to kind of like, like, accessible progress. And by that, I mean, the idea that, like you see records going up, and you're like, oh, that's because training practices have meaningfully improved nutrition has meaningfully improved. Recovery practices of meaningfully improved, whatever. And so, you know, like, we can can go figure out what that is. And then yeah, even if I'm not as gifted as the people who are winning World Championships, I can like benefit from those improvements. And, you know, that's, that's going to make me better, that's going to make the whole sport better. And like, I think there, I think there might be like, the tiniest little bit of truth to that, but I don't think that's most of it. In general, what happens is just records go up, because talent pools get broader and deeper. So if you compare powerlifting, like, like, performance in the sport of powerlifting, for like, the median, lifter, or even like the 80th 90th, percentile lift, or whatever, it like really hasn't changed. Like at all. So if you look at what like typical performances looked like in like, 2012 2013, compare them to what typical performances look like today. It's the same, but records have gone way, way up. And I think that's mostly just because the athlete pool has gotten way, way bigger. And when you're talking about records and champions, you're that's a game of outlier hunting, right?
Philip Pape 18:12
Yeah, I was gonna say it's like the tail, the normal curve, you're just pushing it out a little bit by having this wider pool.
Greg Nuckols 18:16
Yeah. So so if you have, if you have like 100 people in the sport, you'll you'll find people who are two standard deviations from the mean, you might even get lucky and find someone three standard deviations from the mean, then you get 10,000 people in a sport. And now like, there's a pretty decent chance you'll you'll have at least one or two people who are like four standard deviations from the mean. And as the population gets bigger and bigger, you just are able to find freakier and freakier. Freaks, because that that's who holds records. And yeah, the sport of powerlifting has exploded since like, 2014 or so. And so I think we're seeing now, yeah, just people who are bigger genetic outliers than the people who are winning a decade ago. So I think, I think that's part of it. And I think part of it is well is with the growth of the sport, you also see people getting into it younger. So like when when I first started competing in 2012, was it 2012 or 2013? Doesn't matter. One of those. Like, the there weren't many youth competitors in powerlifting like youth teenage It was basically a sport that people would get into when I mean like a lot of them were like ex athletes or whatever. So like I played football in high school didn't make a college squad or like I played like d3, college football. And now I like lifting weights. I want to excuse to keep lifting weights. I'm pretty strong. Hey, there's the sport powerlifting I'll give it a shot like that used to be the standard way people got into the sport. So now like you are seeing more more youth and teenage lifters, just competing, like getting into the sport, either directly or their school just has like a really good strength and conditioning program for basketball, football, whatever the coaches like maybe tell the kids about powerlifting. And they do some, like powerlifting style training in the offseason, like you'd like much more so than they would have done a decade ago. And so yeah, I mean, like, there are like, I think it like it takes it takes time to get really good in any sport, when there's also just kind of like, natural physiological ages when people should be the best at stuff. And I think if you went back 1520 years, like most powerlifters just got into the sport too late to ever hit their true peak. Like, you know, like most of the people who were the best in the sport were like in their mid 30s, which mid 30s is an old by any means, but like it's old for sports. And I think I think weightlifting, like Olympic weightlifting is a really good point of comparison, because it's, it's another sport where competitive success is largely determined by just like how strong you are. But it's also an older sport, and it's much bigger and much more competitive globally. So there's, I think, I think it's a good representation of where like a robust, very mature strength sport kind of ends up and the trends you should expect to see. And yeah, like, like weightlifters generally peak between like 24, and like 29. And like, you know, there might still be a couple people who are adding a couple kilos to their total as they get into their 30s. But usually, they add some kilos to their total, but also bump up a weight class and maybe wind up a little bit less competitive than they were before. But yeah, like that's, that's the trend you generally tend to see. So I think that for like the best of the best in powerlifting, like a decade ago, they just got into the sport a decade too late, and wound up really, really strong in their early to mid 30s, but not as strong as they would have ended up if they would have started training a decade prior and been able to kind of like, hit their prime and like their late 20s or so. Yeah. So I think I think that's a consideration. But yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's mostly just the talent pool thing. And like, like I mentioned before, you see that in like every sport. Like when, whenever the total pool of competitors increases, or whenever the sport like a sport can find a new particularly well suited pool of competitors. It tends to do a lot better.
Philip Pape 23:04
Yeah, no, I'm glad I asked that. Because this is this is like when you talk about science and correlations and all that just the idea that it's going to favor the best of the best. And so you widen it the that best kind of keeps, keeps pushing it even if people think there are other reasons behind it, you know, because I know in the running world when they were breaking all those records for decades, it was ascribed to things like shoes and technology and training. But at the end of the day, there's probably a lot of what you're saying behind that as well.
Greg Nuckols 23:32
Depending on the distance in the area you're talking about, yeah.
Philip Pape 23:36
Other drugs as well. Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure.
Greg Nuckols 23:39
There's a reason why there are a lot of like middle school records that are still on the books that have been there a long time or ones we're just now like, barely getting broken that were set in like the early 90s. But yeah,
Philip Pape 23:52
yeah, got it. You know, a lot of us wish we started lifting in our 20s. And like, for me, it wasn't until I did CrossFit for about 10 years, and that, you know, just tiny bit, moved the needle from from sedentary and then finally got into about 2020. So all right, you want to talk about macro factor. Can we do that? Yeah, let's alright. So just for those listening, who haven't heard me mentioned about 500 times on the show so far, because this is like, this is the episode 70 something here. You know, it's, it's something I use my clients use it. I'm an affiliate, just full disclosure, because I'm a fanboy anyway, so why not? And Greg gave me the opportunity. So I'm a little bit biased, but I use it personally. And I've tried tracking food over the years, probably for a decade or more, many times, many times, and many of us have done that. And every time I just hated it. It was tedious. It didn't work. The app sucked, you know, and it wasn't until macro factor came out. I think I heard you guys talking about it on the podcast and like, I've got to try that out. I did it and pretty quickly within days probably I was like this is different. You know, it's helping me not hate tracking. It's fast. It's easy. I don't have to think about it even and I got into very consistent routine that did change. changed my life. And I've talked about this on the podcast that just getting control over the food because I had already started to learn to lift properly. And I knew how to gain weight. But I didn't know how to control, you know, the ups and downs, and then logically led to being able to get healthier. And then logically to this moment talking to Greg knuckles on my podcast. So my first question for you is, how often do you hear stories like that? And and how do they make you feel being behind the team of macro factor?
Greg Nuckols 25:28
Yeah, we we hear stories like that all the time. And they, they make me feel very good. Yeah, so So to your point. So I think that with with food logging and nutrition tracking, I think that there are a lot of things that people know they should do, or maybe even just want to do. But the the likelihood of them doing it, and sticking with it scales nonlinearly with the amount of friction that they experienced doing it. And so like that, that may sound like mumbo jumbo. But so just to make it practical,
Philip Pape 26:11
and we're all nerds here, so are my listeners, self selected community.
Greg Nuckols 26:16
So, um, yeah, so like, let's say someone wants to start lifting weights. And let's say there's only one gym in their town, and they they currently live in a place where the gyms like a 15 minute drive for like a 15 minute walk or, or whatever, like they can, they can get to the gym, easily in a relatively short amount of time. Not very much friction, they start going to the gym, it's great. But then they, you know, like, let's say they move, like, their lease runs out, they just buy a new house, whatever, there's still just one gym in their town. But now it's like a, like a 40 minute drive, because they moved to the other side of town, their willingness to keep going to the gym, because the amount of friction to actually get there has increased pretty substantially. You know, their, their attendance for workouts might go from like, 90% to like 50%. And then they're like, Well, I'm already been inconsistent. And may, you know, the types of reasons that you can use to justify not going to the gym gets a gets a little longer, like you start with a consistent habit. And you're like, yeah, it's it's a longer drive, but I'll keep making it. And maybe that goes well for like a week or two. But then you're like, yeah, man, like, I've got some other thing going on tonight. Like, I'll just miss this one workout. And then, you know, a month down the line. It's like, I'm just tired after work. I don't feel like driving. It's like, fuck it. I'm not doing it.
Philip Pape 27:47
Like the balance of willpower and resistance has just shifted toward resistance.
Greg Nuckols 27:50
Yeah, yeah. So you know, if that drive went from, like, 15 minutes to 20 minutes, slight increase in friction, but like, you know, maybe not enough that it's really going to affect things. But then, at some point, it's like you almost like flip a switch, where the amount of friction required to do what you want to do goes from being a reasonable amount that you can definitely stomach and are totally fine with to as soon as it like, crosses that barrier. Now, it's like, it's too much like I'm not going to do it, or at least not as consistently. And so, when we were building macro factor, we had that general concept in mind when when thinking about the food lager. Because I do think that that is the sort of dynamic in play when it comes to consistently tracking your food for a lot of people. Like, yeah, I think that people like pretty consistently report is like, I don't like food logging. It's, it's annoying, like it takes time, like it adds a little bit of friction to every meal you eat, because you got to pull out your phone and take a little bit to track it. But we were very mindful about making macro factors food logger as efficient as possible and taking as few steps and as little time as possible to do like any login related behavior, just to reduce that friction a little bit. And so like, it may sound like a small thing, but you know, if you can pull out your phone and log your meal in 30 seconds, it's like, okay, like that's, that's pretty chill, you know, it is still a little friction, it would still be slightly easier just to just not log your food, but if it's like 30 seconds, or whatever. But then if it's like two minutes, that doesn't sound like that big of a deal. Much like a 15 minute versus 40 minute drive doesn't sound like that big of a deal. But then when it's like man, I'm putting something in my mouth four or five times per day. It takes time every time especially if you're on like a free version of a freemium app, and you've got to like X out of two ads every time you try to like add us snack? Yeah. You know, it's it's not like it's not like any of the food loggers out there are so inefficient that it takes like 10 minutes to log a meal. But like, there there is I think for a lot of people a palpable difference between like 30 seconds and a minute.
Philip Pape 30:15
It's a huge difference. I just tell you personally, it is a huge difference everybody I've worked with been like, Whoa, it's like, you know,
Greg Nuckols 30:22
it's, it sounds like it should be a very trivial thing. But I think that it's that it's very important, like, if you can, if you can shave off just like two or three steps, and like 10 seconds from the time it takes to log food. I think that that helps a lot of people get from the, the side of the barrier where it's so much friction, that it's just going to be onerous, and they're not going to stick with it to kind of the other side of that friction barrier, where, hey, like, now it's chill, and this is something I already want to do. And so like this, this little bit of friction I'm experiencing is something I'm totally willing to take on board, because of the benefits I get from this.
Philip Pape 31:02
Yeah, it's to the point where the community is so trained in this idea that when a new feature comes out, that is like an extra tap, you'll know about it pretty quickly. It'll say, wait a minute, the friction here is just tight is not that perfectly optimal, almost zero like we're used to. Now, because you you wrote about the vision for the app that you you want people to log in to to achieve their nutrition goals without hassle without stress, which is kind of tied into this. So continuing with this theme, how far along are you in that vision? I mean, what is there still some more big things that you're trying to solve to get there without revealing secrets? Of course?
Greg Nuckols 31:37
Yeah, I mean, there's, I don't know, like this. This is also something that's, that's nonlinear, I guess. So the, the amount of things that we want to do just the length of our roadmap. I don't like like, we're going to we're going to keep adding to it. Like currently, though, if we just said, Hey, nope, everything. It just take our current roadmap, we're never going to take another new feature request, we're just going to do the things we have planned now. I mean, it's probably five years of stuff we want to keep doing. But I think like, you know, we we prioritized our roadmap, and I think a not stupid way. And so you focus first on the things that have the largest impact. So in terms of how much the rest of the roadmap will affect, like user experience, and giving people like the the core features they want and delivering them and delivering on them? Well, you know, I think we're maybe like a fifth of the way through all of the things we want to do with the app, but probably 80% of the way through kind of like the kind of like marginal utility that will be delivered by like, increasing features and whatnot. So yeah, kind of like a kind of like a Pareto thing, you know?
Philip Pape 33:09
Yeah. Although you never know, right? Because there I can tell you as a as a coach, like a desktop or a coaching version that open up huge, you know, a huge market action. Oh, yeah.
Greg Nuckols 33:19
Yeah, yeah. So I'm thinking about just kind of like the typical user. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, we do want to, like add utility for, like coaches to manage their nutrition clients directly through macro factor. Which, you know, like, yeah, that will be like a huge thing for coaches. But that's kind of like what I was talking about where like when when we add that it will be huge for a a minority of our users. And fair enough, most of our users won't won't even know. That exists.
Philip Pape 33:53
Yeah. Okay. So, regarding the objections, people often have to tracking I wanted to touch on a few more, because we mentioned the time for it. In macro factor, there's also the way it flags your data, or I should say the lack the lack of any punishment, or shaming or whatever you want to call it, that's some apps have with red colors and things like that. There's that feature. And then there's also another one that comes up a lot is, is how often you have to weigh yourself. And and when even if the app didn't exist, you know, I think it's a good idea to do that. And now, I have more clarity behind that as to how the app does it with the moving trend, but talk about some of those other aspects.
Greg Nuckols 34:33
Yeah, so starting with our kind of, like, shame free UI approach. So with a lot of apps, you know, if you say, Hey, I have a goal of eating 2000 calories a day or whatever. If you go to like if you eat something and it puts you at like 2010 calories. Some apps will just like give a give a pop up where it's just like Hey, warning, you're gonna we're about to go over your calorie goal. And like most of them, it's kind of like the, maybe the font will change, certainly the color will change, it'll like turn red, kind of like a, a bright indicator of like, hey, you've, you've done something wrong, like you've, you've fucked up in some way. In we, we don't do that in macro factor. And that's, that's, like, partially a philosophical thing. But it's also like, partially, like an evidence based thing as well. So the philosophical thing is like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's good to like, be be dicks to people, I guess. Right.
Philip Pape 35:46
Like, I think there's a human element to it behind this. I agree. Yeah,
Greg Nuckols 35:50
like, if if something makes you feel bad, and it doesn't need to make you feel bad for it to help you accomplish whatever you're trying to accomplish. I think just your default posture should be hey, let's let's not make people feel bad unnecessarily. But then also from, like, the evidence based side of it, like shaming based approaches to well, like, like weight loss in particular, but just like behavior change, in general, just have a piss poor track record, like they, they don't work. Because like one of the big, one of the big barriers people face with with a lot of the seventh and like, I'm going to be speaking in like, a weight loss context. But really, just like any sort of, like lifestyle behavior change type of deal, one of the big hurdles you need to overcome is, is lack of self efficacy. Because like, most of this stuff is, like, it's not easy, but it's simple, you know, and if there's like a simple thing people can do to accomplish some sort of change that they want to see in their life. If they have pretty high self efficacy, like if they believe they can do it, and believe they can pull it off, and the steps laid out in front of them aren't, like, if you don't like unnecessarily complicate something that should be simple. That does set someone up on a pretty good path towards success. But like you do, you do have to clear that self efficacy barrier. And so like, shame based approaches to, like I said, weight loss in particular, but like, behavior change in general, tend to show that like approaches that take like a shame based orientation, like, ultimately do more harm than good. Because ultimately, what you're doing is you're validating someone's pre existing low self efficacy, right? Like, if if they are trying something that's that's new to them, that they already perceive will be a challenge. Or maybe they're they're attempting something that they've tried and failed at before. They're going into that with low self efficacy. And so if you just have like UI elements that like flag and scream at someone, like, Hey, you
Philip Pape 38:10
failed.
Greg Nuckols 38:13
We have low self efficacy, and you're just validating for them. Yeah, like, you suck at this. You're bad at this. Yeah. And that's a recipe for failure. And like I said, I don't just say that on a purely philosophical level, like they're like, there's, there's research on this, like, it just doesn't work. And so like, even independent of the app space, like that is something that that bugs me, just kind of like society wide, like in the media and the way people talk to each other. Like, there is I think, a lot of kind of, like shaming directed at people who are like trying to lose weight change their body composition. Like I mean, I don't know not to not to, like get to, I don't know, like, like, political or whatever, but like, like fat phobia is a very real thing. And I think if someone hasn't been fat, they haven't experienced it. And so they're like no like it it's not real or it doesn't matter it's like no you're you're full of shit. And so yeah, I think that there's I don't know I think a lot of people in the fitness industry think that like ooh no like the way we need to go about this is like with a with a tough love approach. Like say, hey, like, You're fat that's bad. It's because you're lazy and make bad choices. And it's gonna kill you and so like you need to lose weight like it's it's just purely negative framing. And yeah, like like shaming people for being in the position they're in and the choices they make and saying like i It's because you have like low willpower, you're a piece of shit whatever. Like, even if, even if the You're a piece of shit thing isn't stated like it's It's fella. Yeah, for sure. That's that's subtext. And yeah, it's like, I don't know, that's, that's what people have been. That's, that's the approach people have been taking to try to get people to lose weight since, like the 70s. And obesity rates keep going up. And so there's a bit of like, you know, definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Like, we've we've tried shame based approaches to get people to lose weight and change their lifestyle for fucking decades now. And it's not working, but people still seem to think that it's going to work, which, yeah, yeah,
Philip Pape 40:42
you got no argument for me? Not for sure. I definitely take take that positive approach. And I wonder with some of these other apps, if I'm sure. It's not always intentional, I think there's like a gamification aspect of it. They're trying to induce with the, you know, just like the dopamine response on X apps, like, Are you addicted to a game or something? It's almost like the opposite of, you know, like you said, shaming, but not necessarily trying to do that. Right. And you've discovered that that's what happens. And I think a lot of people use macro factor will say, this is refreshing, because it's the first thing that doesn't seem to have done that. Well,
Greg Nuckols 41:16
I think, I think that there's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, where I think that so I think that a lot of people download a nutrition app, because they feel like they need to keep their nutrition in check. They feel like I do have a tendency to overeat. And I want a tool that will either keep me from doing that, or like help me keep myself from doing that. And if if someone has already, like been kind of in the weight loss space, and has attempted diets before, they're there, I think, I think there's like a little bit of Stockholm Syndrome, like you've, since every, since everything you've like, consumed up to this point, is framed in a negative way of like, hey, like, you suck, but like, here's this thing you can do that will like make you better. Like, I think I think they've like already internalized that. And so they just like, expect that from the tools that they use. So, you know, in a general sense, it's, it's probably not good, it's probably not actually going to help them accomplish the goals they have. But it is behaving in the way that they expect it to behave. Because sure, like they do, like it anticipate and expect to be treated like that. And they think that that's how, how like that feedback should be delivered, because it has generally been delivered and kind of like a negative framing up to that point, you know. And so I think that I think that it's like, I certainly don't think it's malicious. Absolutely not. But I don't necessarily think it's gamification. I think it's, I think it's like meeting users expectations. But I think those expectations have been set by negative experiences, and maybe, like breaking user expectations would be the better way to go about it. Whereas, okay, you, you think that you want this app to shame you. But like, what if it did it? I think if you give the app not shaming you, it's a shot, you'll actually find that you prefer that. And it's actually helpful.
Philip Pape 43:42
Yeah. And it's, it's a selling point of it, but sometimes hard to get across until you use it, right? Because you're like, What do you mean? Oh, now I see what you mean, when it's all it's telling you is here's how much you're over under. But that's it just gives you data. And you know, there's nothing else to kind of beat you over the head. Your failures. Yeah.
Greg Nuckols 43:59
So that's one element of it. Another element of it is. I think that I think that, that that just being kind of like the default UI design fails to consider a lot of just kind of, like practical considerations, I guess. So it kind of it kind of sets it sets of binari, where it's like, Hey, if you're under your calorie target, or under this particular nutrient target, that's good. But if you if you go over, whether it's by like one calorie or 500, it's bad, like it kind of like draws that line and line in the sand. And just from like, a purely like practical perspective, that also just doesn't tend to make much sense. So, you know, if I'm, like, let's say someone's trying to lose weight and they're trying to lose a pound a week. That's a rate of weight loss. That's probably going to be Pretty, pretty tolerable, pretty reasonable for most folks, they're not going to be just too ravenously hungry, but they're not going to be making progress. So slowly, they get frustrated, like a like, whatever. Like, that's just what we'll kind of use as a point of reference. So if there's a warning indicator, and let's say that that comes out to this person, like a calorie target of 2000 calories a day, just to just to make the the example easier. So you know, if that's the scenario, and like, hey, 2000 calories a day, that's gonna help you lose a pound a week. But you're kind of putting a binary warning at 2000. So if that's if that's someone's goal, and they only like 1000 calories, that's like a 1500 calorie deficit. And like, yeah, they're going to lose weight pretty quickly, but they're also going to feel like shit all the time, and probably burn out pretty quickly. So like, if if you're, if you're going to be having a warning, why don't you just keep the number read until they eat enough calories that they're somewhat close to their calorie goal for the day? Like, you know, I think 1000 calories would be worse for their goal than 2001 calories, you
Philip Pape 46:15
know, you're saying a range around the target or so.
Greg Nuckols 46:18
Yeah. And then then on the flip side, like, yeah, if if 2000 calories is the perfect calorie goal for you? And we 2050 That's great. Like, that's, that's a great date. And that's now really close to calorie deficit, it's a 450 calorie deficit, and you know, how much the rate you'll lose weight at with a 450 calorie deficit? Pretty fucking close to a pound a week, you know, like, it's like that. That's still good, you know?
Philip Pape 46:48
Yeah. Not to mention the tolerance for even the accuracy of the numbers, which is, yeah,
Greg Nuckols 46:52
yeah. And so functionally, it's saying any number, like under your calorie target is equally good like that. It's not it's not explicitly saying that, but that is kind of like the implication of that UI element. And any number above your target is equally bad. And so yeah, like that, that doesn't make much sense. For a lot of the goals, people have, like, I do think that it's better to think of targets as a general range, where it's like, hey, if I'm one 200 calories under, that's great. If I'm one 200 calories over, that's also great. Like, you're, you're close, and as long as you're close, like you're, it's gonna be good enough for most goals to at least move you in the direction you're trying to move.
Philip Pape 47:39
Yeah, and on that point, and I'm sure you've seen a lot more data than I have. But I see individuals have their own level of variability in that range, right. So some people are very spot on. And some people vary by several 100 calories every day, but then they still hit the weekly number. It's just an individual thing. Yeah.
Greg Nuckols 47:56
Yeah. But then, like I said, so something else that we like, very, very frequently hear from from users is that those those like red numbers and negative UI elements, you know, much like they frame all like they passively communicate that all numbers below your goal are equally good. They tacitly communicate all numbers above your goal, or equally bad. So something we very, very frequently hear is it's like, oh, yeah, like, you know, the number turns red when I clear 2000 calories. So it's like, hey, this day is already a failure. So yeah, like, like, fuck it, I'm just gonna order a whole large pizza and down to six pack, you know? Whereas, like, if it went red, because they went from 2000 to 2050. Like, that's, that's good. And like, yeah, 2050 is a is a hell of a lot better than 6000 if your goal was 2000 calories a day to lose weight. But yeah, like, I think that, that just sort of like binary below is good over his bad framing, puts again, like, not everyone, and probably not even most people, but puts like a pretty significant minority of people in the mindspace of like, hey, if I went over the days already a failure, so like, fuck it. Like, I'm just gonna go completely off the rails, which I mean, that's, that's bad for your progress. Like,
Philip Pape 49:25
for sure, man. You know, what else tied into that? Yeah. And tied into that. Also, the idea that you when you do that, you sometimes cheat the numbers that you're entering? I've seen Yeah, too. You know, you're like, Well, I'm only gonna be 50 over so I'll just not log the 50. And I'll standard the number. Yeah.
Greg Nuckols 49:43
Yeah, like, yeah, so it also like incentivizes you to keep a bad data record for your CD, not yourself. Yeah. If you're trying to make decisions based on your data, it's probably good to have good data. Yeah, so Oh, yeah, we just wanted to avoid all of that for like philosophical reasons. But also just like practical reasons like it, it leads to better results to not shame people for the choices they make for sure.
50:12
My name is Tony, I'm a strength lift are my 40s Thank you to Phil and his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. And that's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to one of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and he'll help you out. Thanks.
Philip Pape 50:56
Alright, so then the algorithms that are the expenditure algorithm, and then even the the weight trend, and it's public knowledge, how the weight trends calculated. But those two features, I think, are huge. Even the weight trend alone, which is just a simple, you know, equation, I haven't, I don't think I've seen it before macro factor consistently done in that way. And it's led to really kind of a healthy way to talk about weight when you talk about day to day fluctuations versus really what's happening in body over time, knowing that the fluctuations are going to be pretty variable along the way. And that's not what drives the fat loss. So maybe we talk about the weight side, and then these cool algorithms that help us understand our expenditure.
Greg Nuckols 51:40
Sure, yeah. So yeah, the weight, the weight turning algorithm is just a 21 or a 20 day exponentially weighted moving average, which does what we want it to. So yeah, so if, if, if someone were to ask you, like, hey, how much do you weigh? The the number on the scale today is a indicator with pretty high signal, but not like perfect signal. You know, like, if you've been, like, if you've been around 180 pounds just every day, and then you ate a lot of sodium last night, or whatever. So you wake up today, and you're 180 for the number on the scale is like reflective of how much you weigh, like 184 isn't like that much different than what 80 But it's not a perfect indicator. So yeah, like, you probably do want to consider historical information when answering that question. Because, yeah, for that individual for that example. Yeah, they're more 180 than they are 184. Like that the the number today is a bit of an outlier. But at the same time, like, trends do still matter. Like if, if you're your weight has been going up or whatever, you don't just want to take like a simple average of the last three weeks, because the trend is up. And if you just take a simple average, you're waiting older data just as heavily as you're waiting more recent data. And so you'd be like, Oh, no, like I'm I'm 181 When really like it was It has been like on on the ascent for a while, you know? So yeah, what exponential waiting does is it considers historical context, but it waits more recent data more heavily. And yeah, I think that's just a good a good logical approach to weight trending, both for answering that question of like, hey, about about how much do I weigh today, like you're you're trended weight, insofar as it differs from the number on the scale, like the trended number is probably closer to reality than just whatever the number on the scale says today. And then for the purpose of making nutrition adjustments, it does smooth out a lot of that like day to day variability, which which, which is pretty clutch. Because I think, mistake people make when they're trying to, like adjust their nutrition for themselves is weighing too infrequently. And when you do that, like your perception of your progress can be really, really heavily affected by just day to day measurement error. So like if someone just weighed once a week, say, and they weigh every Sunday, and that's just their thing. They weigh one week, they weigh the next week, they look at how much the number on the scale has changed between those two measurements and use that to say like, Hey, am I in an energy surplus deficit? Am I roughly at maintenance? And if I am in a surplus or deficit, how large is that surplus or deficit? Like there's going to be a lot of noise there. You know, like if, you know, if one week you were kind of coasting And along and you're around 181 Most days, and then you just happened to be light on Sunday, when you weighed in, you're like 179, like, two pounds. Variability like that's, that's a perfectly like normal degree of fluctuation. So yeah, you were around 181 For one week, but then the number on the scale says 179, then the next week, you're you're averaging around 180. But then when you step on the scale, you're just a little bit heavier than normal. So it's 181. So in real terms, yeah, you've probably lost about a pound week to week. But if you just compared to those single measurements, you'd say, Oh, shit, I gained a pound this week instead of kind of losing it. So yeah, like you do want to, like if you're, if you're using weight data to, like make make inferences about your nutrition approach, and how large of a surplus or deficit you're in. You do want to weigh more frequently, and you want to like, have an analytical approach that does consider all of the data instead of something that can be like pretty heavily influenced by just one or two, like aberrant, like, upwards or downwards fluctuates.
Philip Pape 56:16
Yeah, and I think weighing every day, too, if you just do it, it like anything else, you start forgetting about it, you just do it. And you can make it easier with like a smart scale or something like that. It's that's what I do. What about the other piece of that, then the algorithm, the expenditure algorithm is kind of a game changer. I think one of the adjustments come from also just being able to see that I mean, I've gone now through three or four phases I posted along, you know, stories about Reddit in the past, and just with the graphs, because it's so much fun to see that, hey, in a fat loss phase, you can lose 600 calories on your daily expenditure, even when your activity is the same, or at least you think it's the same, right? Yeah, tell us about that.
Greg Nuckols 56:53
Yeah, so the the expenditure algorithm itself is like, the the math behind it is like very complex and Harry, but the concept is very simple, which is that a given rate of weight gain or weight loss implies a calorie surplus or deficit of a particular magnitude. Because, you know, we have a pretty good idea of how much lean mass versus fat mass someone gains when they're in a surplus and lifting weights. And we have a pretty good idea of how much fat mass versus lean mass people lose, if they're in an in an energy deficit. We know the relative energy densities of fat tissue and lean tissue. And therefore if we observe a certain weight of rate of weight gain or weight loss, we can say, hey, this is about how much fat and lean tissue that corresponds to. And then here are the energy densities of those tissues. And therefore, we can get a pretty good idea of the relative size of your energy deficit or surplus. So that's step one. And you get that without any nutrition tracking whatsoever, if you just know the weight trending piece of it, you know, roughly how large of a surplus or deficit someone's in. And then if you also have nutrition data, you can just put those two pieces of information together, like, hey, based on my rate of weight loss, I see I'm in a deficit of about 300 calories a day. How much have I been eating over the last week to three, about 1600 calories per day? So eating 1600 I'm in a 300 calorie deficit. Oh, that must mean I'm burning around 1900 calories a day, you know. So that's, that's the basic concept. And like I said, the actual, like, mathematics and the implementation get gets pretty hairy. Because like, we've, we've got to do some stuff to make sure that like, numbers don't just get like, just like cuckoo and implausible when someone like eats way, way more or less than normal one day, or just like, doesn't log a day of eating or they eat way more or less than normal. Like there there are safeguards in place to guard against over corrections that would like necessarily happen if you just sort of like, naively accepted the numbers. And you didn't do any sort of like post data collection processing to share. It me, like make sure that things like correspond with with reality. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the basic concept. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's pretty cool. And like you said, I think it's, I think that it's very useful. Because ultimately, at the end of the day, gaining or losing weight does just come down to like being consistently in an energy deficit. surplus, and successfully gaining or losing weight, you know, so not like losing weight in a way that's going to just cause like a ton of muscle loss or just being so hungry and low energy, you feel like dogshit all the time and don't follow through, or like gaining weight at a rate that's like, you know, restrained and not just like dirty bulking and putting on three pounds of muscle and 30 pounds of fat. I think a lot of people do when they, when they try it. I certainly in its whole milk. Yeah. It's very fun. But then at the end of the process, it's like, well, maybe I should have gone about this differently. But, but yeah, so So you need to be in a surplus or deficit. And you need to have a way to know that not only is it a surplus or deficit, but it's like the magnitude of surplus or deficit that you want, and is likely to, like produce good results over the long term. And so ultimately, like, you do need some system to at least get a rough idea of how much energy you're burning per day in order to do that, because like, if you're, you're going to be in a deficit, that's, that means eating fewer calories than you're burning. So you need to have a rough idea of how many calories you're burning. And the approach macro factor uses is kind of like, like, like an individual level, like scientific inquiry, almost. So like science, science is basically a big fancy system of guessing check, where you say, Hey, I think this thing is going to happen. I'm going to design an experiment to see if this thing happens when you know, a certain intervention is imposed. And then did it happen or not? Oh, if it did cool, I confirm my hypothesis. Now let's push it further. If not, okay, cool back to the drawing board generate a new hypothesis, and just run another process of guessing check. And that's, that is the macro factor approach to determining energy expenditure and therefore calorie targets. So like, when you first download the app, it uses a just kind of like standard equation to estimate your BMR. And tack activity multiplier on top of it. really rough estimate of how many calories you're burning. And then it's like, Hey, you say you want to lose a pound a week? Cool? Well, we'll take about 500 calories off of what we think your expenditure is. And we think that we'll be good calorie targets to lose a pound a week. But if you've just downloaded the app, and the numbers you get, or the numbers you've got on startup, there's a pretty decent chance it's not actually going to be that good of a target. There's quite a bit of variability in metabolic rates. Activity multipliers are far from an exact science. See, yeah, that process, like pretty pretty routinely, like has the risk of generating errors that are like multiple hundreds of calories per day. So, you know, it might say, hey, 2500 calories a day? Like, why do we think you're burning 3000 calories a day, so to lose a pound a week 2500 is, is the target to shoot for. And you start eating 2500 calories per day, and, you know, maybe you're not losing any weight at all. That then suggests, like, again, kind of a guess and check process that guesses. 2500 is the number to lose a pound a week, you eat that that's sort of like you generated the hypothesis. Now, let's collect some data. Okay, now let's observe the results. Oh, you didn't lose any weight at all? Okay, well, that means that we probably overestimated your expenditure. So your calorie targets were too high. So your estimated expenditure is going to trend down your calorie targets are going to trend down. Based on your data, your data suggests that in order to meet your goals and lose weight at the rate, you want to you probably need to be eating a little bit less or the opposite like that things are burning 3000 calories a day, on setup, you start eating 2500 And you start losing two pounds a week. Again, like it's so it's not just like a binary guessing track. It's like it's a graded thing. So it's like, hey, we thought you were burning 3000 calories. So we thought 2500 would let you lose a pound a week. We're observing that when you eat 2500 You lose two pounds a week. So that necessarily means you're burning more than 3000 calories per day. So that means to lose a pound a week your calorie targets need to trend right. Yeah, like it's it's that process which you know, as as someone who's who's a proud empiricist and loves science that just appeals to me He's kind of on an intuitive level. But it's also I think, and like, I'm, I'm not just saying this because I have because I have skin in the game like it's, again, sort of like a chicken and egg scenario like, I'm not, I'm not singing the praises of macro factors system, because it's, you know, something I make money from. It's more like, I identified issues with other systems, which is why we have the system in macro factor. So yeah, like the alternative approaches to determining like, how much energy you're burning, and therefore what the appropriate calorie targets would be. Don't have that scientific process that kind of like guess and check mechanism built in. And that would be fine. If there were if there was a system that could like reliably produce very accurate and precise estimates of energy expenditure. But like, there, there isn't.
Philip Pape 1:06:07
Just like body fat. Yeah, we
Greg Nuckols 1:06:08
don't have it yet. And I don't I don't think a lot of people realize that. So like the, so I'm working on an article about the relative accuracy of BMR equations now. Which like, if someone's ever been to a website with like a TDE calculator, or BMR calculator, those are based on kind of like standard validated equations. Were the fun
Philip Pape 1:06:31
St. jeweler and some of the others. Yeah,
Greg Nuckols 1:06:33
here's Benedict. Cunningham. Like they're, they're a bunch. Oh, in Livingston, the FAO has one like there's caught, they're probably like 40 different formulas floating around out there. But yeah, so you know, you put in your relevant demographic and anthropometric information, depending on the formula, it might look for, like, age, sex, height, weight, maybe activity levels, or there are other ones that are just scaled to like lean mass or fat free mass, but whatever. Like Whichever approach they take, it takes sort of like, relative readily and fairly easily accessible information about you, and essentially just uses multiple regression to predict your BMR from that. And that's, that's really only a good approach for getting kind of like a rough ballpark estimate. But so like to get like a little bit nerdy about this. So if you're validating a BMR equation, what you're going to do is you're going to collect all of the data that would feed into the equation, you're also just going to measure people's BMRs, generally via indirect calorimetry. And then, once you you've either like created a new formula, or you've selected which formula you're going to use to kind of like see how close it gets to the measured values. You feed all of the subjects data into that formula, and you get a list of predicted BMR values. And then for those subjects, you also have a list of their actual BMR values that you measured. And then you construct what is called a bland Altman plot to see how well those two values Adam, and almond plot tells you what the, like average amount of disagreement between the measurement and your estimate is. And then it also tells you what's called your limits of agreement, which is basically the range in which 95% of your prediction errors should fall. And like, what you typically see is like the width of those limits of agreement for BMR formulas are like 800 calories. Usually, the average prediction error is pretty small. And I think people look at that a little bit too hard, where it's like, Ooh, yeah, so So Mifflin, st G, or, according to this study, overestimates BMR by 20 calories or whatever. So if I use Mifflin st ger, and it says my BMR is 1500 calories, that means it's actually 1480. But now the tip, the average error is not what you want to pay the most attention to, you want to pay the most attention to the limits of agreement tells you the plausible range of areas that people experience. And again, not talking about outliers, we're talking about where 95% of the data points are all. And so just based on like some pretty straightforward probability. If you have 14 people in a room, you have a better than 50% chance that one of them will have a BMR that would fall outside of those limits of agreement. Yeah, so limits of agreement are typically like 800 calories like around that. So if a if a BMR equation says your basal metabolic rate is 1500 calories per day, just probabilistically you know, it's much more likely to be Close to 1500, then close to, I don't know, 1200 or whatever. But there's, there's a pretty decent shot that it could be anywhere within that 800 calorie range. So if it says 1500 There's like a roughly two thirds chance that you'll be within one standard deviation of the mean. So sure, if the limits of agreement standard range of 800 calories, that means two times standard deviation was like 400 calories. So that means the standard deviations are out 200. Oh, God, this is I don't know why I talk about match. Okay,
Philip Pape 1:10:35
no, this is. So in summary, in summary, the BMR is already off by hundreds of calories. And then the TDE could be worse. If you don't even know the right activity level that's
Greg Nuckols 1:10:44
like, here's the basic. If you if you put your numbers into into like a BMR formula, just give it like plus or minus 400 calories like that's, that's what the 800 calorie limits of agreement imply. So if a BMR formula says, Hey, your BMR is 600 calories per day, that means that there's a 95% chance that it's somewhere between 12 102,000, which is a pretty fucking big range. Yeah. And then like I said, activity multipliers far from inexact science. And even if you pick the right activity multiplier, like even if you say, Hey, I am moderately active. And my definition of moderately active corresponds with whatever this set of multipliers conception of moderately active is like perfect one to one correspondence. And the multiplier there is 1.55. Even if that is the perfect multiplier, even if you are burning 55% more calories than BMR. If there was error in the initial BMR step, the multiplier just propagates the error. So, yeah, so functionally, if like the limits of agreement would span a range of like 800 calories, just for the BMR step. Once you put like a 1.5 times multiplier on it. Now the limits of agreement will functionally span a range of like 1200 calories. So in that same example, like if, yeah, like if a TDE calculator says, Hey, we think you're burning 3000 calories per day. That means you're probably burning somewhere between 2400 and like, 3600. Yeah, that's, that's a fucking huge range. And so you're going to need some sort of system, like, it doesn't have to be macro factor system, but you're going to need some sort of system to like, guess and check and validate. Is this a good guess? Is it not? Does it need to go up or down? So like, that's one approach people use. The other approach people use is like using wearable devices to like, monitor activity levels and estimate total daily energy expenditure. But that's, that's like basically the same process. So they will estimate your basal metabolic rate via the same sorts of equations that that anyone would use to estimate the EMR. And then from there, like they they estimate how many additional calories you're burning via exercise. But there's not there's not like an inbuilt system in those devices to validate whether the initial BMR guess was good or bad. Because it's not taking in like contextual information to like validate whether that estimate was good or bad. And then just like the estimate, the estimate of like energy expenditure itself, like during activity is also extremely rough. I don't think a lot of people realize this, but like there was there was a systematic review by Fuller in colleagues from like 2020 that was looking at, like what the typical error for, for wearable devices for measuring energy expenditure was comparing the the estimate from wearable devices to like the gold standard measure for estimating energy expenditure and free living humans, which is doubly labeled water. And the air is produced by wearable devices exceeded 10%, more than 80% of the time, like 10% is pretty big, like typical guy burns somewhere around 3000 calories per day. That means that, you know, if you burn 3000 calories per day, there's like an 80% chance that your wearable will say, you either burn fewer than 2700 or more than 3300. But like, like like 10% plus or minus. What's your, what's your TD is it's still like a pretty big range. And it's not like that. And again, that's not like the maximum error you can Get, it's like 80% of the time the error will be larger than that. Yeah. So yeah, like, there's, there's not a good way just out of the box to say, hey, without any sort of like scientific process on the individual level, without any sort of guessing check process, there's there is not a system in existence that can reliably produce accurate estimates of how much energy you're burning. Like, there needs to be some sort of process that takes into account how much you're eating, and how how much you're eating affects how your weight is changing. All right, in order to estimate it like that. If, if, if there is a better way to do it, I'm not aware of it. And so yeah, like we we, like, I'm not like denigrating the other methods of estimating energy expenditure. Because I'm a co owner of macro factor, like, I'm a co I'm a co owner of macro factor, because the other methods didn't work.
Philip Pape 1:16:08
That was your purpose. And the purpose led to everybody wants macro fat because it works. I'll promote it for you.
Greg Nuckols 1:16:18
The better approach, like onto the market, which Yeah, I mean, like you can, you can also like, do most of that stuff yourself, like you can, you can track your your calories in a free app, you can track your weight. And if you're like, fairly mathematically or statistically inclined, like it's, it's not that hard to put together like a set of formulas that will like roughly approximate what what macro factor does I mean, like that, that's, that's what I did.
Philip Pape 1:16:51
The you started with a spreadsheet? Yeah, yes.
Greg Nuckols 1:16:54
It started with a spreadsheet that I made an undergrad when I'd taken like one nutrition class, like, it's,
Philip Pape 1:16:59
it still goes back. It goes back to friction, though, right? Greg like to do that most people don't even I love spreadsheets, but I don't have the time for that. I'm not gonna do it.
Greg Nuckols 1:17:08
Yeah, yeah. So so like, you don't, you don't have to buy macro factor to use this general approach. And whether or not you by macro factor, I would strongly recommend using this general approach, but then like that, having it in like a slick app interface, where the food logging is very efficient, everything is good. And it's also doing this thing that would otherwise take additional manual effort for you to do yourself. It just like reduces the friction. And I don't know, like, it's good. Like,
Philip Pape 1:17:39
I don't know, it's good. And for people listening, going back to the BMR thing, or the td td calculation, the traditional approach, right is to try to maintain your calorie intake for like two weeks, and then measure your weight and kind of get it that way. With macro factor you can, it's super tolerable to however much you eat, it doesn't really matter. It's collecting the data either way, which I really like about it. Because I get I get kind of confusion from people on that, like, well, I miss my targets, or how's it going to know that well knows, because you've got the data, regardless of whether you're over or under. There are some interesting corner cases. I guess one is, I've noticed with clients is body recomp, when there are new lifters and they're really putting on muscle mass pretty quickly. And their weight kind of gets offset artificially from macro factors perspective, because it doesn't know your body composition, that would be ideal if we could just plug into you know, an accurate body fat measure which doesn't exist. Because what will happen is the weight will say, if there are maintenance a weight might slip to tick up because of the muscle mass and the manufacturer thinks your expenditures lower and then wants to cut the calories. So we had to have that conversation of like, well, maybe let's just keep the calories a little higher for a little bit, you know, knowing that this is happening. Alright, I know we're running long on time. Is there anything else you wanted to bring up? Or a question you wish I'd asked? Greg, if if you have
Greg Nuckols 1:18:55
more we can keep going. Like I I fully understand that when I'm on podcasts, they tend to run long so if there's if there's more you wanted to cover like I'm I'm chill like I know. I know you you carved out an hour in my schedule, I did not go into this the expectation that it would only be an hour like I yeah, I know what it's like when I start talking but like if you need to wrap up that's that's no no,
Philip Pape 1:19:20
I've been respectful of you because I've had you know, I've had guests that are like it's on the hour we got it we got to wrap up. If you if you have some more questions, we can keep going. I just wanted to get a little bit more into like the science side of things because that's a lot of what you do right? We're stronger by science with the podcast, the research, the research spotlights, which I really like because they're super digestible. Do you have the one recently about the bedtime protein and then well, not so long ago about training while you're pregnant and things like that? What what areas of lifting or nutrition science are you most into right now? Like I'm curious how you pick the studies that you even care about, and write about, but like what are you interested in? Is there anything surprising coming out anything you you know I really get to go on right now.
Greg Nuckols 1:20:02
Hmm. I don't have a great answer to that question. Honestly.
Greg Nuckols 1:20:09
I yeah, I don't know, it is just like kind of on a on a case by case basis like i. So back when back when I wrote for masks, like we had a journal sweep that we did every month, just like pulling out from like, close to 150 journals, just all of the all of the studies that just based on the title, we felt, this might be interesting. And then we'd go through the abstracts to kind of like filter further. And then from there just like pull up full text, just kind of skim on like, Hey, does it look like the study was done pretty well? Or is there or is maybe the abstract, like overselling it a little bit. And then, and then from there, just kind of, like narrow down what we wanted to write about. So like, we we still, like, I still have access to that journal sweep. So it's still like basically the same same process, like, I just go through what was published. And if something just kind of like, tickles my brain the right way. I'm like, Okay, that's interesting.
Philip Pape 1:21:15
Could you use AI for this now? I mean, it seems like a good use of, of AI to sift through that.
Greg Nuckols 1:21:21
Ah, you know, I think that's probably possible. I don't know. I mean, like, so we, we pay people to do the journal suite now. And I like until we have like, robust UBI. Or just like, I don't know, some sort of, like, more collectivist economic system. I don't necessarily want to be on the vanguard of replacing human jobs with AI.
Philip Pape 1:21:48
is asking, it comes up so often these days, but also
Greg Nuckols 1:21:51
curious. Yeah, that's, that's one consideration. And then another is like, I just like that process. Like it least at least, like once, once the list is put together, just like manually sifting through it, I like it, I think, I think it's meditative. And it also, even for the papers, I don't actually like sit down and read. I at least see a list of like, what is getting published? And like, what is getting research attention. So like, there might be a topic where, you know, for like, a year straight, like, every month or two, a new study will pop up on those particular topic. And I'm just not that interested in it. But then once I see it enough, I'm just like, Damn, why do people keep publishing about this? This just doesn't seem like it should be that interesting. But like, people, people keep publishing until like, maybe there's something here. And so yeah, like, I want to get that if I had like an AI program, kind of like sift through the list for me, I'm just gonna be like the curated list like I, I think that there's, I think that there's often a lot of value in inefficiency. I think that like, as, as a business owner, I see a lot of people who are in a similar position that are like very obsessed with increasing efficiency at all costs. Okay, anything that's, like not necessary, or kind of like a low level? Or like a low leverage thing? Can I get someone else to do it for me? Can I just stop doing it? What like, like, that type of deal? I don't know. I think a lot of the I think a lot of the good things that have happened, to me, at least in business, have been due to doing a bunch of stuff that on the surface look looks like it should be inefficient. So yeah, like I spend, probably like two or three hours per month just sifting through the journalists that I'm that I'm positive. I can automate or either you know that or just like hire someone to do it for me just be like, hey, look back at the stuff I've written before. Use that to kind of like calibrate what you think my general preferences and studies are. And then hey, here's a list. Just pull out the 15 studies, you think that I like? Like, I could do that. But then I would miss, you'd be disconnected. Yeah, I would miss a bunch of stuff that's getting published that I may have found interesting that my prior writings wouldn't have suggested that I would have found interesting. And I you know, just like Miss trends as they develop and whatnot. Another good example of that is just like, I do a ton of community engagement, like, with macro factor, like I'm in the groups all the time, like you said, like before we knew each other like you DM me and I responded and like I don't really respond to Instagram DMS anymore just Just because I hate Instagram, I don't like the platform. Actually, what it is, is I don't like typing on my phone. But if someone emails me or they send send me like a Facebook message where I can respond on Messenger, like, I respond 100% of the time. And that is like I do, I probably should do less of that. But I, even if I didn't respond to everyone, I would still want to respond to a lot and like, be in the groups a lot, because I think that, you know, that's another thing that's kind of like on its face and efficient, but a dynamic that I pretty frequently see with people who have content businesses and get pretty successful. And it goes from being more of like a, I am in this community, and maybe like kind of like the leader of the community, but kind of like a first among among equals type of deal. Like I'm still in it amongst the people and seeing what their concerns are and what they're talking about, then, then you you get some success, and you're like, Oh, well, that's, that's a lot of work, I'm going to hire someone to be my community manager, I'm not going to go in there at all, I'm not going to read the comments. And seeing that, in I don't, I built the success off of like my single brilliant vision that people have flocked to, like, so oftentimes, that's a lie. Like, oftentimes people do get popular because they're like, pretty plugged into their communities. And they understand what people care about and what they want. And then as they get more successful, they view it as a benefit that now they can put some distance between themselves or people, but they just end up like getting disconnected from kind of like, the source of what made them like relatable and able to make content that like well in their community actually wanted to consume because like they kind of like sever their connection to that. So yeah, like with with macro factor. For instance, like we're, we're like a very heavily community driven app, like all of us are, like reading the Facebook group reading the subreddit, we see what people are talking about, we see what concerns they have, we have a public roadmap, there's a feature submission portal there. Like we monitor all of that, like we, we know what people want, we know what problems people have with the current product. And we know what new features people want to see. And like, here's, here's a crazy concept like most people aren't idiots like they, most people know what they want. Most people will tell you what they want, if you ask them, or if you create a space where they feel comfortable, like expressing what they want. And then if and then if you give it to them, they tend to be very happy about that. And happy and loyal. Yeah. Oh my god, this, this is a great product. Turns out like, if you if you build the thing that I said I wanted, it turns out to be the thing I wanted. And I like it.
Philip Pape 1:28:11
It's so true. I tell people all the time. I'm like in in the macro factor community and these other apps are just these cold third party apps with some unnamed person. There's a big difference. So I'm glad you do that.
Greg Nuckols 1:28:24
Yeah. So like in a vacuum, each step of that process seems seems like it should be really inefficient, like, just purely from like a business operations perspective. If we closed down the roadmap and closed down the groups or just like never went in the groups ever again, for probably like three months, it would just be like a net benefit to the business because like, we would have more time to do other stuff. Like, you know, we're trimming off a day to day thing that like in a vacuum seems bad. Seems like it should be inefficient. And seems like there should be higher leverage stuff to do elsewhere. But then, like after that three month mark, I think like the the cracks would start to show and I think that the product that we would end up building wouldn't be as aligned with what users actually wanted, and, and therefore would just wind up being a worse product, you know. And so yeah, I think I think that, I don't know, like, I know, this started with you asking about like, I like where it went.
Philip Pape 1:29:33
I like what I want as a business owner and people listening. And also they want to use macro factor, knowing that there's this community behind it. And that's, and it's not just it's not just an app community. It's like a ton of people trying to do the same thing using the app and get results. So it's you learn a lot about fat loss and protein and the evidence and everything just by talking to people in the group. Yeah, but
Greg Nuckols 1:29:52
But yeah, like, just kind of my broad point is I think that I think that a lot of people get overly focused on efficiency. Like metrics and quantification. And I think that I think that there are a lot of things that like, if you look at them in a vacuum, and only focus on the things you can quantify, you would say this is this is bad. It's a poor use of time. I shouldn't do it, I should do things that like quantifiably, at least in the short term would give like a higher ROI. But then like, there's, there are just a lot of like, kind of like second order effects that are challenging to quantify or, or impossible to quantify. And that that oftentimes, like that sort of pursuit, an orientation gives you like short term gains, but kind of like stymies you in the long term. Here's another great example of this. So like, like, online marketing, shit, just drives me crazy. And the thing is, people with like, really like spammy? Like approaches to online marketing, and like email marketing in particular. I think, I think it's like the ultimate expression of how like it over emphasis on like, efficiency and quantification can make you look like you're making the right choice the whole time and end up like fucking you very badly. Because like, the thing is, like, really the so if you if you have like an inbox full of like your, your emails, gotten on a bunch of email lists, just every time you open one, it's just like, just hard sell tactics, like it's really kind of like spammy kind of scammy. very in your face, trying to like, push your emotional buttons and like, find the pain points in order to close the sale. People who go down that road, I understand why they do because for a single email, those emails work much better than anything else. Like, there's a fucking reason people do it. And it's because like, if you're trying to make as much money as possible from one email, you send your list, that is the type of email you want to send. Because like, you know, it's going to have some sort of, like clickbait subject line to get people to click in and read it. And then most people aren't going to buy from any sales email you send, but if you kind of like have you get your like emotional hooks and someone early on and then operate some sunk cost fallacy, make it really fucking long tell long stories, like, by the end, it's just like, Oh, God, I feel like I have to fucking buy something or I just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading all of this, you put some like, like false urgency on it to where they feel like, Ah, well, I have to buy now to get it to like get the deal. Eat just all of like the hard sell tactics, you see an email marketing for a single email. That's exactly what you want to do. Like that will make you more money than any other single email you can send like if a well, a well put together hard sell long form sales letter. Like there's a reason people. But the thing is like, you can quantify those first order effects, you can quantify, opens, you can quantify, click throughs you can quantify sales, you can't quantify. reputational damage. And so if you do that, once you make more money, and maybe if you don't do it again, people forget about it. But if you see how well it worked, and you say, hey, based on the metrics, I can quantify this shit, this is, this is what I need to do. Now the person I just paid for, like an online marketing course. They were spot on, like I took their advice, sent this email, man, it rocked, then then you start doing that. And you just like, alienate your whole audience. You know, and I, I've seen so many people go down that road. And as as they do it, I am 100% Sure. All of their metrics, all of the things they can quantify are telling them you are doing the right thing. But they are doing the exact wrong thing. And yeah, so that's, that's just kind of a lens that I like to look through everything through. So like I I do think that I probably I could probably use my time a little bit better and more efficiently. Like there is probably some fat that I could skim that wouldn't have like deleterious long term like second order negative effects. But I'm always careful about that because I do think that that is an incredibly easy and alluring trap to fall into. In in all aspects of life. Like there's no There's a lot of value in stopping to smell the roses. Not not always taking the fastest way between two points. Because oftentimes, like the stops along the way are, are where you learn like interesting shit that like, doesn't serve any value for you now, but like you tuck it away in the back of your mind and like who pull that out at some point in the future and it's, it unlocked something that wouldn't that that you wouldn't have been unable to unlock as if you would have just taken the most efficient path between A and B every time.
Philip Pape 06:31
That's where I think you're going with that to the idea of just getting your hands and all sorts of things being there being connected, and you never know what's going to happen. You never know who you're going to be. I mean, I've seen there's so many things I do or I don't make any money from them like podcasting, but man, I got to meet you and so many other great people and who knows what these, you know, educational opportunities and relationships will lead to and this is a good way I think to conclude here because we came full circle and we talked about balance and like how you work so hard but also you want to stay connected and things and not necessarily pull away from everything. So any last words or how about tell people where they can learn about you?
Greg Nuckols 07:07
Sure, so let's see I don't I don't have last words I don't Yeah, so if you want to check out macro factor check it out. What's What's your affiliate code if you're listening to this put in fella Wits. &
Philip Pape 07:25
Weights Wits & Weights Yeah, so
Greg Nuckols 07:27
go with Wits & Weights that'll extend your free trial for one week to to any you can get that on the App Store and Play Store. If you you're listening to this podcast, you like audio content, if you want to listen to another podcast check out the stronger by Science Podcast. You can find that wherever find podcasts are found. If you'd like written content, there's there's a bunch of good free content on shorter by science.com and macro factor app.com. Macro factor app.com Not just a sales page for a product like there's there there is a lot of good in depth content there. Yeah, social media. Probably the best thing to follow would be the stronger by science Instagram account. You can follow my personal Instagram account. It's just at Greg knuckles. I don't post there anymore, like ever. And that is the one place where I don't really respond to DMS. So yeah, don't still follow my personal account Follow Follow the stronger by science account if you want to see what we're up to on social media.
Philip Pape 08:36
And that's why Facebook messaged Greg before this call as a reminder, because I knew not to do that. Okay, great. Well, I'll throw all those links in the show notes, man, it was pretty epic. I appreciate you sticking around this, this this amount of time and talking about all a whole bunch of things I didn't think we'd get into which I love. So thank you so much.
Greg Nuckols 08:53
Thanks for having me on it was a blast.
Philip Pape 08:58
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 77: From Emotional Eating and Bariatric Surgery to Optimal Health, Balance, and Mindful Living with Allan Friedman
My guest today, Allan Friedman, is a member of the Wits & Weights community and a one-on-one coaching client of mine who has gone through his own physical and mental transformation during our time together. He has a passion for sharing knowledge, engaging with fellow health and fitness enthusiasts, and always being of service.
Today we’ll explore his early influences in nutrition and fitness, his personal connection to health and well-being, and how his professional background informed his fitness journey. Allan will share how he's overcome resistance, developed a positive attitude toward fitness, transitioned from emotional to mindful eating, and managed nutrition as a bariatric patient.
My guest today, Allan Friedman, is a member of the Wits & Weights community and a one-on-one coaching client of mine who has gone through his own physical and mental transformation during our time together. He has a passion for sharing knowledge, engaging with fellow health and fitness enthusiasts, and always being of service.
Today we’ll explore his early influences in nutrition and fitness, his personal connection to health and well-being, and how his professional background informed his fitness journey. Allan will share how he's overcome resistance, developed a positive attitude toward fitness, transitioned from emotional to mindful eating, and managed nutrition as a bariatric patient.
Allan Friedman was a School Psychologist for over 30 years, skilled in Developmental Psychology, School Psychology, and Mindfulness Training. In the fitness industry, he loved being a Spinning® Instructor for over 12 years. He maintains a Yoga Instructor Certification with additional certification in Trauma Sensitive Yoga.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[3:53] Influences on Allan's interest in nutrition and fitness
[6:29] Factors contributing to his motivation and positive attitude toward fitness
[10:50] Personal connection with health and well-being
[14:12] Tracking habits and habit stacking
[19:39] Influence of developmental psychology and mindfulness training on his approach to fitness
[27:20] Overcoming resistance in his fitness journey
[31:15] Journey from emotional eating to mindful eating
[36:38] Evolution of his fitness goals and perception of the "finish line"
[38:23] Strategies and challenges of managing macros as a bariatric patient
[42:21] Maintaining a positive and passionate mindset in the face of fitness challenges
[45:43] The impact of our 1-on-1 coaching on his well-being and goal attainment
[49:03] Specific challenges overcome through our coaching relationship and coaching process
[55:06] Advice from Allan for beginners on their fitness journey
[59:53] The question Allan wished he was asked
[1:02:20] Where to connect with Allan
[1:03:01] Outro
Episode resources:
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Allan Friedman 00:00
There's a positive regard that I have to what they're explaining. I listened to how they learned where they're coming from. So I'm an active learner, but I also know that when I learn something, I try and implement it.
Philip Pape 00:15
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. My guest today Alan Friedman is a member of the Wits & Weights community and one on one coaching client of mine who's gone through his own physical and mental transformation in our time together. He has a passion for sharing knowledge, engaging with fellow health and fitness enthusiast and always being of service. Today we'll explore his early influences in nutrition and fitness, his personal connection to health and well being and how his professional background and formed his fitness journey. Alan will share how he's overcome resistance developed a positive attitude toward fitness. Transition from emotional to mindful eating and manage nutrition as a bariatric patient will also delve into the challenges we've tackled together and the coaching process. Alan will share his advice on getting started how he maintains his unwavering positivity and passion throughout his fitness journey. Alan Friedman was a school psychologist for over 30 years skilled in developmental psychology, school psychology and mindfulness training. In the fitness industry. He loved being a spinning instructor for over 12 years. He maintains a yoga instructor certification with additional certification in trauma sensitive yoga. Alan has always been interested in physical and emotional wellness, and how we develop throughout our lifespan. He's an active learner and strives to create action plans that address his purpose and priorities. Allen cherishes life and wishes to bring a passionate and supportive positive vibe to others out, we finally made it happen. So welcome to the show, man.
Allan Friedman 02:15
Here we are. Here we are, wow, I'm listening to that intro. And I'm digging in deep as. And as we'll find out on this podcast, sometimes I just listened to things is go deep into it. And it's like, wow, these are important points. So I thank you very much, Philip, first of all, for your commitment and your dedication to the fitness industry, to the health industry. And your passion, your dedication and your energy is absolutely incredible. And it goes it doesn't go unnoticed. You know, it's it's, it's there.
Philip Pape 02:51
Yeah, man, I appreciate it. And I think you know, we attract each other into our world too, right. So let's not discount that. I mean, you know, you and I probably attracted to each other in some way out there. Because we are both positive, optimistic type people at least that's how I identify. And so it kind of worked out. And you know, the more we do this, and these have these conversations and the people listening can get can get motivated and fired up by that energy and what you have to share.
Allan Friedman 03:15
You mentioned something right off the cuff. I'll just say that what I was attracted to your to your community, was your wisdom was your questioning. On the different group us these intelligent questions, I said, Well, I said this guy really gets the science. He gets the he gets the research. And that's when I joined your Facebook group that oh,
Philip Pape 03:36
man, yeah, standing on the shoulders of giants, right as they say, I could accept a compliment and and I also want to pay it back to all the people that I have to thank for getting as well. Okay. Alright, let's get started. Let's get started. So I want to I want to learn a little bit more about maybe some things that even I haven't learned about you. Starting from your background. You mentioned before that your grandfather and also Jacqueline lane. These are some of your early influences on your interest in nutrition and fitness. So can you share about how these individuals or others have shaped your perspective, then they spurred this passion you have.
Allan Friedman 04:10
My grandfather was as my I would call him a nature boy. You know, he was an Eagle Scout Scoutmaster. He lost his father when he was young due to the flu, influenza epidemic. So he wanted to pay back and he was like, uh, he dedicated himself to the boys in the community in Brooklyn where he lived. So that was his impetus for my my mother said that, while he wanted to be an Eagle Scout, they taught me the phrases men are like owl and there's not a cloud in the sky. Look how blue the sky is. He told me to go for a hike and they told me about hiking. He told me about gardening. He a couple years before he passed away, that he told me how to make a vegetable garden. He taught me how to transplant you know, to all kinds of gardening and he passed away when I was 11 years old. So it was a sudden loss, tragic loss and then let's move along to my adolescent years, you know, when you're into your body, so a cousin of mine sit down and look what I have, I have these 12 packets of 10 or 12 packets of exercise programs, and they would do it yourself Jack the lane in your in your bedroom, you know. So I remember still my favorite memories of that when I was 15 years old, was doing tricep dips on my desk chair. Okay. And then going downstairs and having Titus cheese, you know, it's like so
Philip Pape 05:31
I remember doing doing the price. He already knew you had to get protein even back. That's right, exactly.
Allan Friedman 05:35
Yeah. And I always write. So I remember doing leg raises. I remember doing core work, all this stuff in my bedroom. And I remember telling her mind, he kind of says, so I was. So that goes back when I was 1516 years old.
Philip Pape 05:51
Now, where were you was this like, it was just like Arnold Schwarzenegger where he could just envision his muscles growing.
Allan Friedman 05:57
I was always fighting with X, I was always fighting with being overweight. Okay. So yeah, so I didn't I, I always was on the chunkier side. And so it was kind of like my way of kind of taken care of myself. I wasn't into sports into team sports, necessarily, although I did love riding my bike. And I liked other, you know, individual type sports, but I was not a team. Sport. Person.
Philip Pape 06:27
Okay, Scott. Cool. So now fat did was there a gap in there. So that was when you were a kid and then doing the tricep extensions on the chair and then eating the cottage cheese. I mean, we're take us now, today.
Allan Friedman 06:40
Oh, man. So today, there's a mantra we're going to skip to today. So there was a time where I gained a lot of weight. I just gained a lot of weight. When I was having kids, you know that, you know, that became daddy. And, you know, forget about me, it's all about, you know, about taking care of kids and working and trying to you know, keep the budget going and things of that sort. So I ended up gaining a lot of weight. At one point. At one point, I had a doctor who told me that if I wanted to see my grandkids, I have to lose weight. This is my this was in my early 30s, late 20s, early 30s. Okay, that's pretty young,
Philip Pape 07:23
right to be told that. Yes, yes. And you're saying your family your situation was that you're, you're very giving guy I know that about you. So you put others before you always what it sounds like? Yep. Okay.
Allan Friedman 07:36
So what happened was, and this is kind of like moving along my journey here. So my grandmother before she passed away, I used to take care of her, you know, when she was sick a little bit. And she said to me, Alan, she goes, you have to take care of yourself, because no one else will. You see, no, she saw a little bit that I wasn't I was a little, you know, she was concerned. So I did. I did. So I every time I'm telling you every time I go to the gym, even to this day to this year, so let's let's bridge the gap all these years. I say to myself, Alan, take care of yourself. Because no one else know. Because no one else, it's up to me who else is gonna lift the wings? Yeah, who else is going to go for a walk? You know, it's I have to have an internal locus of control, and make sure that I do what I need to do for myself. There's a saying that I have. And it's also part of my motivation, Phillip, if I'm only if I'm not for myself, who will be for me? If I'm not for myself, or if I'm only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when. And so it's a focus on the on myself or ourselves as individuals, that we have important work to do in this world. We have to take care of ourselves, and we have important work to do. However, it's not just about us, rail, if we're all in for ourselves, whatever, what are we you know, when we don't exist in a vacuum. So therefore, it's a call to action to other people are the commitments or their obligations, other acts of kindness that we do in this world? You know, reaching out? What in that in the context of also, I wouldn't say juxtaposition. I'd like to use Venn diagrams. So I think there's an intersection between ourselves and the community, and plus a call to action. Because just thinking about it and wondering the diary and writing down what you're grateful or appreciative of every morning is fine, but we need to act on what's important to us. And in my situation, bring it back full full for backwards back to the beginning, is that we need to take care of ourselves in order to take care of others as well. You know,
Philip Pape 09:55
ya know that we should sit with that concept, right? Because there's so much on social media and discussion about self love, self worth body image, body positivity, all these things. And the idea that pursuing some level of fitness or even aesthetics, or whatever the goal is, is somehow a self maybe a selfish pursuit, when what you're saying is that what drives us is our mission in the world, others, our family, to the people who care us, care about us and who we want to be a service of, and thus, don't we want to be our best selves, physically and mentally to make that happen and accomplish that mission. Right? Does that that's what we're saying. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And your quote, your mantra reminded that I think Epictetus has a quote, I use all the time as well, very similar of like, when are you going to demand the best for yourself? Because nobody else is going to do it? Right? demand the best? Yeah, so you have this deep personal connection with health and well being it's not just about lifting weights, right? It's not just about aesthetics, you've gone through a long trajectory of, of emotions of physical states of your relationships with others over the decades. So how does that play in? And how do you? How do you implement your mantra to stay consistent? Like, it's nice to say it, but how do you do that?
Allan Friedman 11:17
I want to initially say that it's meditative. I always tell my trainers and my friends at the gym, that lifting weights, and is meditative. Even high intensity interval training is meditative. Because when you go through the steps of the intensity, before you bring it back down, again, you have to understand where you're at, you need you need feedback, you need a heartrate monitor, perhaps you know, for some objective information, but you also have to realize what's happening to your body, your breath, your brain, your your state of being as you move through everything. And lifting weights is really about internal internal feedback. in mind, first, but also internal feedback. So every time I'm lifting weights, whatever I'm doing in the gym, whatever it is, there's a brace, there's a breath. And then there's an internal locus of focus. And, and that's kind of that, but I also feel that it's happened. It's the habits I've created, to act as a structure a foundation for what I need to do. Because getting to the gym, and getting for a walk, going for a walk, going to buy the proper groceries at a grocery store, right? The whole ball of wax built in, there has to be an underlying structure that you work from, that people work from. And I think that really helps me.
Philip Pape 12:51
You just hit on to so powerful concepts, just kind of lightly, what am I trying to say? Like, not flippantly, you just mentioned them. And to me, they're very powerful. The first one is that lifting weights is meditative. I've actually never heard it put that way by anybody. And you really struck a chord with me with that, because I'm the kind of guy who I like to I'm very rational, very logical, you know, to me, it's like lift weights, get a result, do this, get a result. And I don't really meditate, I don't do a lot of breath work and stuff, even though I've tried. It's just not ingrained in my habits like it could or should be. But I do lift weights, and I do heavy squats. And I know that process, when I turn off the music, no one's there. It's just me because I workout at home. So it's very meditative. And I'm thinking of a cue, I'm thinking of my breath, and I feel my, my abs pressing on the belt, and I feel the, the force going straight down into my heels through my squat shoes. And I'm looking at the position with me relative to the all of that, like you're saying is a high level of awareness and internal focus. And then, and all you're trying to do is go down and up. But it's this whole mindset thing. I love that because you can identify with people who love lifting weights and say, you know, you are engaging in a form of meditation when you do that. That's very powerful. That's very powerful, because it's really about resilience and the resilience you get from that. And then you tied it to habits, which is a whole separate thing, right? Where if you don't have the habits yet, how do you get those habits out on like, where should someone start? Trick, right?
Allan Friedman 14:28
Pen and paper. Okay, pen and paper. That's how I started. Why don't we hit the whiteboard, whiteboard or pen or paper or notes on the iPad on your phone. You don't need a fancy Apple though. There's a couple of great apps for habits. It's kind of also digging in deep, seeing what we need in the kitchen, in our action steps to get us to where we need to go. And one thing I've learned lately, since I've already established habits is habit stacking. I think that's amazing. So you might say, How do I go for a walk? Well, what do I like to do that I could pair with going for a walk? In my case, it's podcasts. All right, when I'm behind them, my podcast is because I'm not working my steps in the park.
Philip Pape 15:23
That's actually a great point, Alan, around yet another powerful thing, because I know we've talked about habit stacking a few times, but when my feed gets really long, I'm like, why is it long? Oh, because I took a D load week this week, and I wasn't lifting or walking as much. There you go. So maybe I should just go for an extra walk, catch up on my podcast, you're right. It's great. It's
Allan Friedman 15:43
right. So it's about, it's all about just building up one habit at a time, one step at a time. You know, maybe it's, it's, um, getting a gym clothes together, maybe it's first buying a nice shirt for the gym, you know, or a pair of shorts that you are dedicated, you might have two shirts and two shorts that, you know, you dedicate for working out. You have a protein you have, you know, you if you're mindful of nutrition, you have the nutrition set.
Philip Pape 16:13
You know, these are good techniques, I want to I want to stop there. Again, you're talking about like, having things you enjoy, or almost like a little reward or celebratory thing that gets you going right, it could be that new shirt, a new piece of equipment, you know, you don't always have to buy stuff and spend money. But even you mentioned a protein bar. Like if there's something if there's a protein bar you like versus one you don't that can make a difference in get having it right. You also mentioned the reminders in your phone. I need more selenium. So I added a habit that says Eat Brazil nuts every day at 11am. You know what I mean? I just added as a reminder, it sticks there and read until I do it. Right. My question to Philip is how many? Two? I just need to
Allan Friedman 16:52
That's it. Yep. Right? Right. Oh,
Philip Pape 16:55
you need a lot of calories too. So you got it.
Allan Friedman 16:58
I love it. I love it. I love it. But yeah, so um, yeah,
Philip Pape 17:03
cool. No, I just, I'm interrupting you on purpose. Because the things you're saying are really valuable for the listener to just dwell on it. Me too, right? I'm part of this podcast is I'm learning and then the listeners learning with me, one on one adding more on that because I have other things we can get into. There's one more thing also
Allan Friedman 17:18
I'd like to add to this accessibility. Okay, things need to be accessibility if things are hidden, or in a room you don't go to or in a draw that it's that you don't, that's not visible. There's a barrier between you and the action step with a habit. So I have my proteins, my protein powders, my creatine, like I have a little little area which used to have a carrot, the carrot moved away. So in the place of the Karen, I have my proteins, McHale, you know, all my all my supplements that I pre make ahead of time. So in the morning, I just have to dump a little Rubbermaid you know, recipe of all my powders, dump it into a shaker cup of water, and I'm out. There you go. So it's a matter of, of accessibility also.
Philip Pape 18:07
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. It accessibility, which is the opposite of resistance or opposite of a barrier. Yes. This is a
Allan Friedman 18:17
great way. Yeah, it's a good way to put it. It's right. There's less resistance. Yeah, between your goal or your habit. And what you need to do.
Philip Pape 18:26
Yeah, you know, I was, I was just listening to Darlene Marshall, she was on the show. I'm not sure. I think Chris might, I'm not sure if it'll be out by the time this one comes out. But she taught her latest episodes about micro habits, the idea that you don't have to have a habit every day, you can modularize your habits. And you just made me think of another concept related to that of time based habits. In other words, if if you have a lot more energy in the morning to do something, use that energy to prepare yourself for the habits when you normally wouldn't. So if you for me, that used to be when I would go to the gym, I would, in the afternoon, I'd prep my gym bag and prep all my stuff. I prep my workouts because I had all this energy. And then in the morning when it's 5am and I'm dragging myself out of bed, I'm like, Well, it'd be more work to put all that away than to just go to the gym. So I'm just gonna go to the gym. Yeah, really good stuff, man. I didn't know that. We'd get into whole habit strategies here. But this is good. It's part of
Allan Friedman 19:19
the ball of wax it is really is filled with which we were talking about my progress with talking about what I dig into. And these things that I dig into that helped me have success in what I'm doing, or mostly success, you know, every day is not perfect.
Philip Pape 19:35
And it's not going to be and that's cool, though, every day.
Allan Friedman 19:38
So let's see what else what else would you like to discuss? Well,
Philip Pape 19:41
I do want to connect your background as a school psychologist to your understanding of psychology in general, right developmental psychology, which is its own niche there and mindfulness training. So you have this interesting background, how does all that contribute to your approach today?
Allan Friedman 19:58
I think My training in psychology in my, in my profession has taught me to honor the individuals in front of me. When I have a student across from me at the table, I have to look at, I don't want to get specific necessarily, but I look at who they are as a person, I look at who, you know, for lack of a better word, I just say there's a soul sitting across from me, whatever this student is involved with, or needs help with, or whatever, what can I be of service? What can I do to reach this, this individual students? So I always I've learned to initially have a positive and unconditional positive regard. And I also have used well, that's one thing. And also developmentally, what does a student need? There was an incident a long time ago, where a principal was having difficulty with a student. I looked at the student, and within a minute, the student was calmer, more relaxed, and was able to, you know, principals able to work with what she needed to deal with in terms of parents, whatever that she sent out. And how did you do that? I said, I assessed what the student needed, developmentally. What is what is it? What is a six year old need? What does a four year old need? What does a 10 year old need? What is a 15 year old niece or an 18 year old? What's going on in their developmental stages that they need? That I can help them with? So this is kind of like jumping around umbrella points, so to speak, because there are so many umbrellas, and major points that I can point to, to answer your question.
Philip Pape 21:55
Yeah, I mean, bring it back, bring it back to your if you just had to sum up your philosophy today. Right? Right. But the between this positive, unconditional positive regard, understanding what people really need, people are people are individuals that have unique needs, and maybe deep, very deep down inside them. Who knows? And then the mindfulness training, right? How does that all bring us so are your
Allan Friedman 22:18
mindfulness training is amazing. It's then that are my yoga background. So I think that my work in psychology evolved a little bit more for mindfulness, stress reduction, meditative breathwork. So I often did different types of breathing techniques with my students who are in a state of anxiety. Its fellow co workers needed something. I was not there to work with, you know, to know that they, but But I think, you know, breath work is very powerful. I used to go into the chorus room, in music department, and do breath, work, breath, work meditation with the choral students, so they could access their breath, and understand their breath a little more than when they sing, you know, and pastoral things and things of that sort. So, there's a whole a whole blend, it's called being eclectic, you know, I love being eclectic, and having different tools to use for different reasons, you know, in different times. So I think, you know, I just think that we all need to dig into ourselves a little bit. And understand and have a focus. One thing that I've also learned is that we have to access our parasympathetic nervous system. We're always fight and flight, it's very easy to be fight and flight and fight. So what yoga does and breathwork does is it relaxes your mind from your body up. So the actual vagus nerve, you know, the vagal nerve that goes into your, into your abdomen, the innovation of that causes a relaxed state. And that's how breathwork works. That's how Yoga works. So we can be very working hard on our mats in yoga, but at the same time, we developed a relaxed state, because we're working the nervous system in such a way that we're able to kind of settle in. So that's kind of, you know, anti anxiety. Mindfulness, teachers use mindfulness in the classroom. There are so many techniques for teachers to develop a common denominator of atmosphere, and vibe in a classroom by starting off with a mindfulness exercise set sort of the world that kids get into focused and they're able to learn a little bit. So education and mindfulness is huge. There's some amazing, amazing psychologists who are who have done work on mindfulness and education. And that's research and practices ongoing.
Philip Pape 25:20
And I'm just letting you talk palette because you're relaxing me right now with theater. There's a you could just like, This is good. I'm just going to use this podcast time for my own, you know, mindfulness with Alan Friedman, social hour here just seriously, there's something to be said about even even connecting with somebody, I get the sense that that probably relaxes us to some some level here.
Allan Friedman 25:45
But when it says something, I remember, I remember being in Montana. Okay, cut back and cut, no cut bank, my bank, I was going to Glacier nationals on Route two in Montana. And I remember going to a an auto auto parts store need a new battery for something. And the owner's wife was telling me about her son. And I said to myself, you see, no matter where we are, no matter what, what, where we are, whether we're in New York, Montana, could be other countries kids need the same thing. Developmentally so this is developmentally there are some certain basics that people need, whether were an infant or whether were eight years old. It's just it's just their basic we could talk about Mazza we could talk a shot so many other things. But um, that was it. I think that's pretty much it isn't. It's a knowing that it's a knowing that people have different different requirements, different temperaments. And there are ways to work with, with people in in the gym, the same thing. You know, I have, we have friends, I hang out with people in the gym. And there's a certain vibe and and people tend to kind of understand where they're at. So a lot of people are doing the meditative work, like you said, Philip without even calling it meditation. Yeah.
Philip Pape 27:24
So we've talked, we touched on the idea of, of, of attacking resistance of eliminating barriers. But you would you've struggled like many of us, you had periods in your life where you struggled with physical fitness, right? With with your body with eating, emotional eating, things like that. What is it that potentially was missing at the time that you have found? Or maybe it was there and you just weren't using? Or what could have? What could have helped that person that now you're finding could help others?
Allan Friedman 27:55
That is a great question, which is going to lead me into some medical history.
Philip Pape 28:00
Okay. Do it if you're comfortable? Yeah,
Allan Friedman 28:03
sure. Well, I've always eaten healthy noise, but a lot, you know,
Philip Pape 28:14
suffered there suffer, there. Were words mean things, words mean things, and I want people to understand, right? That you can, and the word even the word healthy is has got some label, what am I trying to say? Some bias to it, depending on the context. Yeah. When you say eating healthy, I surmise You mean like eating whole foods, not eating too much processed foods, maybe not alcohol, whatever. But you were just eating too many calories. So totally possible, which means you could you could eat healthy, have too much. You could also eat not so healthy, but maintain the caloric balance you need. There's all combinations of this possible. Yeah,
Allan Friedman 28:52
there's one time that came home from school. And I mindlessly, mindlessly. So, some chocolate chips, melted them in the microwave, mix them in with peanut butter, and started eating the peanut butter and chocolate mix. I had a very hard day. And I just and then I stopped myself. I looked at what I was doing. And he said, Why am I eating this? What am I doing here? You know, and this was also during the weight loss phase. This was also when I was working on my weight lunchtime, you know, a while ago. And I said you know what? Eating is meditative. I'm, I'm I'm not thinking about it. But I'm engaging in a behavior that's trying to calm myself down. And I just said, now that I understand that I have to do something else. I can't be mixing peanut butter and chocolate chips.
Philip Pape 29:50
Oh, I got out and really you're just you're connecting so many dots. Yeah, I don't know if you realize that because we were talking about fit how exercise or squats or whatever. We're meditative. Almost like you're in a trance is another word maybe because I talked to another guy who talked about self hypnosis and use that terminology when we're just so focused and nothing else matters. And then you just said eating is meditative. And it's not like there's judgment on that. It just is what it is. And you're like, Well, now that I know that let's do something else meditative that benefits me.
Allan Friedman 30:19
Yes, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. 100% 100%. So that was a pivotal point in my life. And this goes back years. And you know, a while ago,
Philip Pape 30:32
hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're looking to connect with like minded listeners on their health and fitness journeys, come join our free Facebook community. It's a supportive space where you can share your experiences, ask questions, and access free guides and weekly trainings. Just search for Wits & Weights on Facebook, or find the link in the show notes. Now back to the show.
Allan Friedman 30:55
So what let's bring this back to the question again, Philip, you want to refresh my memory? Because we're talking a lot. I'm thinking a lot.
Philip Pape 31:02
You know, what, these these conversations it almost doesn't matter what the question was, if if we get these revelations, yeah,
Allan Friedman 31:09
yeah, I just think also that, um, so my journey, my journey hit a point, right before COVID. So I had managed, managed, so I've been I've been a spin instructor. You know, I've been a yoga instructor. And always dealt with weight, always, always, but it got things got a little heavier for me, you know, things started kicking in. And I have, you know, a little bit of, you know, the cardiologists that have a GI doctor and have my, my regular physical, you know, in turn. And that long time ago, my GI doctor mentioned something to me about having a hysterectomy, stomach, hysterectomy, like, you know, slip jerking my stomach, that was a long time ago, because I don't if you have to think about this, I know somebody who might be. So go ahead eight years or nine years, and I call him back. And I said, Doctor said, you know, my weight is this. And it's COVID. And I know that if I were to get sick off a bit, I may not survive because of my obesity. 80 pounds ox and the ad pens. Oh, boy. Sure. And he said, Alan, you he said, Alan, yeah, he thinks it's a good idea. He gives me the green light. My primary doctor said Alan, you've been struggling with your weight a long time. Because I think it would help my cardiologist. He was all in. So scared to talk to him. And I sat in my examiner's office. He said, you know, with your family history, and your struggle, he said, It would be great. He said, I know. I know, someone I had stick with him. We went out for steaks, he had this procedure done. It took me five minutes to finish my mistake. It took him 25 minutes, almost a half an hour to finish this thing. He said he said he enjoyed every single bit of it. And he said it looks amazing. He said, You know, it might have been a colleague of his. So he said go for it. So I did. That was hard. Philip, it was the surgery itself was a piece of cake. But the work beforehand, I had to be I had to show their last week beforehand, they have gone a two week liquid diet to shrink the liver to shrink fat around the liver to shrink the liver so they can get to the stomach better. And then you're then then after a while, then you then you move yourself up, you know, to regular eating over the course of months. It's a biological learning curve again,
Philip Pape 33:57
you have to adapt to this. But before we get there, though, before we get there, so just playing devil's advocate, because I know people think this or when they judge people, they don't know their history of why they did things. It sounds like the pandemic was like the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of your personal health scare or reality or whatever, something that you knew you you wanted to deal with for years, but just hadn't had the impetus quite to take action. And why did you did you think that you didn't have any other option or that the a more natural approach would have been too risky or take too long, given your health was in danger?
Allan Friedman 34:34
Okay. I've had also other health issues history. So in my family, there's, there's there's other other metabolic conditions. I also had heart heart surgery, you know, a while ago, about 1516 years ago, so I'm in great shape. And with that background, I think I needed to do something more acutely
Philip Pape 34:59
the imminent risk was palpable. You had to take action.
Allan Friedman 35:02
Yes, you have to do something. Right. But it wasn't right away. I mean, I started this process in in May. And it took till October, you know, obviously, there's a whole process. It's not like I decided, and then two weeks later, I'm ready. Right? You know, it's a process and working with, as, you know, working with professionals about it. Really knowing that I have support and knowing that I have the skills to carry this through. Because it's not an easy fix. And, um, they'll tell everyone listening to this, you know, it's very easy to say, oh, you know, he now? No way because regain is real. And if anyone who's a bariatric patient use this, they'll say, Yes, Alan regained is real. It's a matter of so we regain, obviously. But the question is, and Philip, this is where we come into, into play. What is the quality of the regain? Okay? Is it muscle? Or is it extra fat? My, my bariatric doctor, it's too much. It's maybe three or four. But one of them is protein first. The second one is Wait, train.
Philip Pape 36:17
Great, and those are good mantras.
Allan Friedman 36:19
I said, I said that I said to him, I said, Listen, I don't want to look, look, I don't want to look, you know, like I'm 10 years older than I am. You know, like, I don't want to say I don't want to you know, he sit down, the best thing you can do is wait two or three times a week. And cardio he said but weight training and each Protein Protein first,
Philip Pape 36:38
where you had your weight trained up to that point, or just the yoga and the spinning and stuff like that.
Allan Friedman 36:44
I had done some weight training, but not as significant. Oh, yes, I've done weight training. Trust. Yes. So in the 1990s, I followed Bill Phillips body flag program. I weight trained all the way to to 2004 2005. And then it took a little hiatus. And then I became a spin instructor in 2009. So it was more of a cardio type of
Philip Pape 37:12
so you were like D trained at the time? I was Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, just so people understand the history, but also your if you don't mind, what was your age at this point? Back then, when you had the surgery coming out of that
Allan Friedman 37:28
51 of those 61 Six. So figure it was
Philip Pape 37:34
I was just getting the ballpark
Allan Friedman 37:36
6160s 66 to 61. Just so people
Philip Pape 37:39
know that at whatever age you are, you can you can manage your health and you can improve your health. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Allan Friedman 37:44
So it was in my 60s was in my 60s. So actually, I had actually I had been lifting weights prior to the pandemic, but not as focused. And that is dialed in. I did have a trainer. I'm thinking back, I did have a trainer. But it wasn't the three day a week. Progressive loading.
Philip Pape 38:12
Yeah, so Okay, got it. So you may have you may have lifted weights more of as a form of exercise, not necessarily strength training and growth. 100% Yes, then you start doing it properly. So a lot of things are going to change. So we're getting to a pivot point, you have the surgery, you have this supportive doctor, which is rare. Sorry, I had to say that when it comes to lifting weights and protein, and it seems like a lot of things started changing at that point because you talked about the story of the chocolate and peanut butter, right? And emotional eating so I want to understand how that changed from emotional to mindful. And then also the other things that you do right tracking, planning, listening to your body, all these things,
Allan Friedman 38:55
okay, okay, yeah. head coaching. So coaching, yes, thanks
Philip Pape 39:00
for the plug. Yes coaching.
Allan Friedman 39:02
So let's go through this. So originally, go ahead restate that again, because a lot of things my mind right now I'm sorry.
Philip Pape 39:10
Yes. So what changed after you had the surgery? How did you start to develop more beneficial practices for your health? Okay,
Allan Friedman 39:20
the kitchen first of all, my kitchen became loaded with with healthy proteins. When I can only eat my stomach I really feel comfortable only eating about five to six ounces of salad protein right now. Pretty much and maybe a little vegetables and stuff like that, but it's protein first. So I had to maximize the kitchen. First. Ground beef, dark meat, chicken, eggs, egg whites, flaxseed, pumpkin seeds, you know all the things that they don't, but and it was a buildup. So first There was just kind of cheese and fish, or cottage cheese mixed with eggs or egg whites, you know when it first started, so it's it's a progression. So I also don't feel like I want to fill my day with chips with ice cream. Even if a tailor tap, I mean, I don't want to waste my, my capacity and my macro factor goals and our goals to other foods that have very poor nutritional value.
Philip Pape 40:36
How did that happen, though? How did you get to that mindset? I mean, you said you already always ate healthy foods.
Allan Friedman 40:42
I was gonna say, Oh, I always had that mindset. When I was a kid I loved or open those nutritional by nutrition Bible. I mean, I was I had a part time job at the vitamin shop.
Philip Pape 40:54
But use your time to butter chocolate and peanut butter. I'm gonna come back to that because you mentioned that not that those aren't delicious foods in and of themselves, trust me. But the way you ate it in that emotional state, and it was mindless, like that's what I'm trying to get at. So that the people listening who might be struggling with that understand how can they turn that corner? Putting a lot on your hair, man?
Allan Friedman 41:15
No, I would say first of all, it's a matter of choosing. So instead of that I'll have yogurt with berries, or I'll have PB two. You know, awesome. I still have my peanut butter. I can just show you what's in that cabinet over there. Okay.
Philip Pape 41:37
Yeah, so you're replacing I replace the starting place.
Allan Friedman 41:40
I still enjoy my peanut butter, but it's PB two. I mix flaxseed with Pb two with pumpkin seeds, and maybe a tablespoon of oatmeal. I put it in a ramekin or a little saucer and mix it up with little skim milk. And I have myself a nice treat, you know. So like to me, that to me is a great treat. I don't need the peanut butter and chocolate. And if I want chocolate, I could get dark chocolate church and have I have dark chocolate. Or I could Mix powdered cacao and mix it in with, with whatever I'm using. You know, so I What about the mindset? It's a mindset.
Philip Pape 42:21
Yeah, and I'm trying to take one more level because there's the there's the emotional trigger part of it, right. So I totally love that strategy of replacing I use it all the time as well. Like if you love crunchy things, you can replace them with other crunchy things. But then we also don't want to mindlessly eat those, quote unquote healthier snacks. So there's that aspect to it.
Allan Friedman 42:38
I think I work too hard to sabotage myself again. No digging down a little bit.
Philip Pape 42:45
So you love yourself is what's driving you right now. And you always have it's I'm sure. But like, the stakes are high,
Allan Friedman 42:53
the stakes are higher now. And yeah, I'll have I'll have peanut butter once in a while, and I'll have chocolate, but I won't be mindlessly have digging into Haagen Dazs was in my fridge, my freezer, it's linked to something else because I'm working too hard. When I start doing something, it's like, okay, I have macro factor to be responsible to I need to log everything. So it keeps me in check. And if I do have something, I have to be accountable for it. But I'm dialed into my weight training program, Phillip,
Philip Pape 43:25
there you go. There you go. You're dialed it, yes, you're dialing in and everything is everything is compounding on everything else is what I'm hearing from you. It's like this helps. This helps this the way you eat, the way you move, the way you train the fact you have your you're a bariatric patient, all of those things. Plus coaching helps obviously, that's extrinsic motivation. The community helps you talk about, you know, your family, your loved ones as well helping you and I've had conversations. So that's a great message for people to understand that it takes one thing, but then it can start to lead to another to another. And, and help you do this.
Allan Friedman 43:59
Like I said, You we create a whole ball of wax. And if people are visual, think of a Venn diagram of how things so I had like a 3d Venn diagram moment where it's not just the the bubbles like intersecting, but then building upon each other. So we have different layers of different layers of blends, not just a unit, not just a flatland, but it's layers. So what you describe Phillip just now is so accurate, because it's a layering of habits or layering of intention that continues to build upon itself. Yeah.
Philip Pape 44:38
Yeah, Larry. And another another phrase I learned recently is upward spiraling, again was from talking to Darlene same, I think from positive psychology. Yeah.
Allan Friedman 44:47
I think that's why I thought of it again when I heard that yes, yes. Yes. So okay. Yeah, go ahead. Wow. Wow. I'm feeling like wow, it's pretty intense. I just want also to share that just having a bariatric procedure is not the easy way out. It is a action that leads to further responsibility. incredible responsibility. And I own that responsibility. And maybe that's what you're hearing, you know, you and our listeners today, here is this responsibility that I have, to my health, and to what I've done in my life, you know,
Philip Pape 45:30
it's a great way to put it. Yeah, like your past happened, whether whether it was because of your choices, or not, which we know that some of it is your choices, but that's fine. Now you took responsibility for your future. So now, I'm curious. And this is, because we are in a one on one coaching relationship as well. We met through macro factors, since we both use that we were in the community there. I talked about that app all the time here, people are tired of it by now. But uh, how has the coaching independent of everything else helped you? I really am curious on how, like, if if we I feel like if we hadn't been in a coaching relationship, you still would have been successful. But I want to know, what, what the extra contribution was in leveling up your progress over the last six months?
Allan Friedman 46:17
Well, you've taught me things about myself. You had a vision that I did not see myself. Like, let's get down to the deeper parts of the Sunday. Okay. It's not about the technique. It's not about necessarily about the weekly forms I have to fill out. It's not about it's about the results of my weekly assessments with you. It's about our conversation about your conversation with me. It's about realizing that I don't know everything myself. And my mindset for so long, has all been about the scale, the number on the scale, it has to go down, it has to go down, it has to go down, it has to go down. And if the while man, that's not appropriate, right? I mean, it is appropriate at given times for sure, at given times. But right now we're on maintenance. And I'll say, everyone, you use this phrase, there's magic in that maintenance. And Tony, Philip, we've talked about this before. So the magic and maintenance is also dovetailed, juxtaposed to leaning into you as a coach. So the magic of maintenance is not just about my macros, it's about your wisdom, your coaching, you are beings laying a foundation of support for me to be in maintenance and say, Wow, man, it's okay. I gained three pounds, but I've kept that weight for five weeks. And my muscles look great, and my pants still fit, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And maybe I gained a half a pound of muscle on the other Renfrow scale, I don't know, whatever. I mean, that gives me that's a grain of salt. You know, you can take that with a grain of salt. But I feel good. I were attacked out this week, first time in a long time. And I like whoa. So that's, that's where the coaching that's independent. That's where the coaching is done. It made me believe that I have the power inside of me to make progress in a way that I did not know myself, that it took you and your wisdom and your knowledge to say, oh, let's try and do this. And I was petrified. But you mentioned in your previous podcasts, and that when you go into maintenance, people are anxious about gaining weight. I was there, I was so nervous. I was like, I'm going to eat and I'm going to gain weight. And I'm going to end up over this weight. And I'm not going to look. But that didn't happen. So you know.
Philip Pape 49:04
So, so here's what here's what I'm hearing from you, Alan, because a lot of people think coaches are, are there to maybe provide information, right, but a lot of a lot of folks know what to do. I mean, you're you're above, above average, in terms of that knowledge, right? Because you listen to all the podcasts you read you. I mean, we and you and I go back and forth on the research, you send me articles, all that stuff. That's totally beside the point. It's these other things you didn't know you had inside you. It's maybe a relief from some of the stress, right? I'm hearing like, you're just able to unload on someone else that can support you. And I'm the kind of guy that it just like, I'm not gonna get stressed by your stress, right? Because you're not me. I'm not emotionally invested. I'm emotionally invested in your success. But but your stress, you can just kind of throw it over the throat of a wall. We'll just get rid of it over here. It's great. It's crazy. You know, like Just to think that you didn't know what you were fully capable of. And it wasn't that you couldn't lose weight, it was that you couldn't stop losing weight without thinking it would all go off the rails. Yeah.
Allan Friedman 50:14
Another thing that your coaching has helped in general, this whole process my mom passed away about, you know, with passed away also in 2021. And I just think that what I'm doing for myself, is honoring her as well. Because she always wanted me to take care of myself. And she was happy when I had the surgery. And she looked at me beautiful, you're doing this. So it's like, everything. So talking, you're talking about stress, that's one thing we didn't talk about yet, was the biggest stress in my life, the biggest upset, but also learning, I learned a lot was my mom got sick, and she passed away. So with that being said, let's bring you into the picture. Now, let's bring your coaching into the picture. So not only so now I haven't I added another, another leg to the foundation of what I need to do for myself. And I leaned into you with Trust. You're safe. You're safeness. You know you're very safe about what you do your wisdom. I also think that you're also have an amazing capacity for communication, and allowing people to become introspective. And I think all of those things together, combined with what I had said before, create the unique coaching experience that I've extended had with you.
Philip Pape 51:46
Well, thank you, Alan, I don't I don't know what to say. Because there's always a little bit of imposter syndrome in me too, like we all have, of you know, like, the idea of wisdom and all that. But one thing I one thing I think about talking to you is you have a background in psychology. I'm not a therapist, I don't have a background in psychology, nor do I purport to do that at all. And sometimes there's a difference in, in the approach between psychologists and coaches, right, psychologists often help with the past and healing. And coaches are like, what do we do now going forward? What tools do we use to move ahead? I'm not saying that that's there's not a Venn diagram of overlap. Okay, but from my perspective, even when you're talking to me about your mom, you know, one thing I always feel I struggle with is like, how to properly respond to that and empathize with people. And everybody struggles with that, right? When others are going through these difficult times. It's like, what do you say? It's always it's a universal human question and concern. But, but I always come back to Okay, what does Alan need now from me? And because he's got other things that are going to give him the support, maybe in that personal area? What does he need for me? And what did he hire me for? And what are we doing here? And that was kind of helping you move through it, you know, not not necessarily to process it, that's more of your own thing to to manage? And again, I'm not a therapist, it's just how do we move forward, I my focus for you is your health, your physical health, which does give help with your emotional health? So how do I help you move forward with that? Right? So that's where having a coach can definitely help. Yeah, cool.
Allan Friedman 53:18
And the ability to lean into the coach, not every not every client can lean into a coach. It's kind of like, people coming into the spin room and saying, out, are you gonna kill us today? No, now why do I want to kill you, I want to I want to build your I want to build, you know, build this build the, you know, build a skyscraper, and that just bring it to the penthouse, you know, so, so it's like, we have to leave our ego at the door, you know, Philip, I want to lose weight, I want to lose 15 pounds, by in six months time, I want to be 12 to 15 pounds lighter. And there's a whole picture that I can still stay the same or even gain a little bit, but also have a better body composition. So it's a matter of me also leaving my ego. And my directive is I'm a very directive person very. And it's like leaving that to the side and say, okay, maybe I need to listen to to someone else. Maybe I need to listen to a coach, maybe I need. I'm going to try maintenance, Phillip might have an idea. So I did. But it's that openness. It's that breath that we take that pause to allow things in. If we're always, if we're always on the go, and we don't, if we don't if we are a cup is always full. If we always have a full vessel. We can't take in we can't learn. So part of it is emptying the vessel a little bit to bring in
Philip Pape 54:48
all that's good, that's good. And a vessel. I know it's a metaphorical vessel, but there's also literal like our day to day schedule, our time all the things that we do vessel As part of that, and you're speaking to me to Alan, trying to empty that vessel a little bit. Okay, so Well, if somebody's listening, they're like, Wow, we're getting into a lot of deep stuff here, but also a lot of actionable strategies along the way. What advice would you give to someone just starting their fitness journey? They might be 65. They might be 25. And you know, they might be 90? I don't know. And they feel overwhelmed, right. There's information. There's misinformation, there's training programs, nutrition plans, coaches, websites, social media, books, podcasts, you name it. Let's take a breath. Where should someone start? In your opinion?
Allan Friedman 55:36
They just start where they are. There's so much in social media, so much around this, that say, we should be here. We should we should we should be shredded. We should be this I'm never going to be shredded. You know, I seriously, it's like, but but I'll be out look good. Okay, so I think people need to honor what I'd like to express to people who are just starting out no matter what age, people might be starting out, if they're a disability, if they're surgery after an illness, they might be starting out because they want to lose weight, they may be starting up a so many different reasons. And that's why I'm going to pause it this. See where you're at. Invest in a trainer, invest in a coach, someone you can talk to, even if it's just for one session, or two sessions, see where you're at, identify your goals, honor where you're at. Because it's step it's a step by step process. But the only way to go one step at a time is to honor and see what your needs are, where you want to go. Knowing that what your why is where you were, you know, what is creating your why. And, and the why is powerful. The why is like something that takes you into periods of plateaus. When you're in a plateau. When you say, oh, man, I just want to give up the why you did Why are you doing this? Why did you start you know, take a week off, take a diet, break whatever you want to work, quote. But know that your why is there and you have to really want to return to it. So that's what I would say on away or at, reach out to someone professional. Write things down diary, what's going on? Get an objective opinion, objective, look at what's going on with you at the hearing now and where you want to go. And why. What's creating the pivotal point? What's creating this pivot point in you that you want to make a change? Where are you at? And when you close your eyes, what do you envision for yourself? For some people, it might be just be able to walk around the block. And for some people, it might be lifting 10 pounds, for some people that might be able to walk up and down stairs, again. Okay. So some people, you might be bench pressing, you know, it might be you know, whatever. For me, it's hanging from a bar and doing chin ups. Okay, you know, I look at calls. Yeah,
Allan Friedman 58:24
I'm making a joke, but it's, but it's very serious. You know, so take everything where you're at. You know, there was a time when walking up a hill. When did me after my heart after I had my heart procedure. It took me a while to walk up. When I used to walk across the street to come home. I live on a hill, I had to walk diagonally instead of straight up the hill. Because I would get out of breath after the surgery. So I was walking though. Okay, so I had to build myself up. And my cardiologist said, Alan, you have no restrictions. You can get on the spin bike after after this time, and you can do this. But my physicality needed to come back to itself.
Philip Pape 59:13
And you engage in form of progressive overload by starting where you're at. And then going from there. Yes, exactly. Works with everything in life. I think it's good advice. Cool. All right. So people are going to get out there pen and paper, they're going to reflect on what they want out of life and why and then start where you're at and go find some resources, you know, special help people, podcasts, whatever, find resources. And this is a great resource, Allen's a great resource, we're going to maybe hook you up with his contact info in the show notes, we'll see but he's in our community. Either way, if you want to join in, reach out to him.
Allan Friedman 59:45
I'm on Facebook. You know, I don't post a lot but um, if you want to reach out to me, send me a message. I'll, you know, I'll be glad to respond.
Philip Pape 59:53
So you know what I'm gonna ask next. It's the penultimate question, Alan, since you I know you listen to the podcast and what is what There's one question you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Allan Friedman 1:00:03
Oh? Where do I get this desire to learn from? Where do I get? What, you know, what is my impetus behind learning? You know?
Philip Pape 1:00:12
Yeah, your curiosity, your passion, your learning. All right.
Allan Friedman 1:00:16
So this is saying, who is wise, one who learns from everyone. So, not that I absorb everything unconditionally, because it definitely has to go through a filter, sometimes, you know, at times. But, um, but I am always there questioning and learning. am learning and listening to other people who are wise we surround ourselves with people who, who have something to offer in terms of their own experience, there are mentorship abilities. So I think when we surround ourselves with people who are wise, who are scholarly, who are wise to the world, and that sort of unnecessarily intellectually, but who were mentors, I mean, that's like, that's, like, you know, a brotherhood that's like, you know, or, you know, our fellowship of, of how we learn. So I'm always honoring. So this goes back to my original mantra of positive regard. Okay. So when people listen to people, I, you know, there's a positive regard that I have to what they're explaining, I listen to how they learned where they're coming from. So I'm an active learner. But I also know that when I learned something, I try and implement it. So we all know, you know, call Behrman has has a has a, you know, the prep work, right? You know, so there's a call to action. And then there's a lot of a lot of different things that I do. But learning is important, but transferring it into action steps to make an impact. You know, learning is a change of behavior, and observable change of behavior.
Philip Pape 1:01:58
And that's good. That's good, right? It's not just consuming. It's changing your behavior from what you hear and what you learn, right? Yes. Right.
Allan Friedman 1:02:06
So that's it. You know, who is wise one who learns from everyone Great.
Philip Pape 1:02:12
One who learns from everyone, I'm trying to do that with this podcast, man bring on people that I can learn from and the listener can learn from so let's, but let's take action as well. So you definitely gave me personally some things to think about. And I'm sure the listener I mean, just all the things we covered. So where where do you want listeners to reach out to you or learn about you,
Allan Friedman 1:02:30
they can reach out to me on Facebook, I have an Instagram or perhaps in the community on the Facebook page, you know, if they want to come into the Facebook page, I'm active there. And there'll be a great place for them to correspond with me.
Philip Pape 1:02:47
All right, yeah, we'll put the links to the your Facebook profile as well as the Wits & Weights Facebook community where Alan hangs out regularly. And man that was just as this is awesome. I mean, we got into things that we didn't expect and a lot of value for the listener. So man, thanks so much. Thanks for coming.
Allan Friedman 1:03:01
And Phil, thank you for inviting me. I hope I was of some help and value to your listeners and your community and the community that we both a part of, and I wish everybody who's listening a little good things. Just
Philip Pape 1:03:18
all good things. And with that, we'll say toodaloo Thanks, Alan. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 76: Diet Breaks, Energy Flux, Plant-Based Protein, and Dieting Psychology with Eric Trexler
Today I have the pleasure of chatting with the renowned Dr. Eric Trexler to discuss nutrition science, psychology, and application. We'll explore his experiences, research, and coaching, covering topics such as diet breaks, dynamic maintenance, and plant-based protein.
Today I have the pleasure of chatting with the renowned Dr. Eric Trexler to discuss nutrition science, psychology, and application. We'll explore his experiences, research, and coaching, covering topics such as diet breaks, dynamic maintenance, and plant-based protein.
Eric Trexler, a pro-natural bodybuilder and sports nutrition researcher with a PhD in Human Movement Science, has years of university-level teaching experience. He has published numerous peer-reviewed papers on exercise and nutrition for improved strength, size, and leanness. Since 2009, Eric has coached individuals, prioritizing evidence-based and personalized approaches to help them achieve their fitness goals.
Eric is the co-owner of MASS research review and MacroFactor app. He is also the co-owner and Director of Education at Stronger By Science, where he writes articles, coaches clients, and co-hosts the Stronger By Science podcast.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:30] Impact of early physical self-perception on Eric's fitness journey
[4:53] Tangible impact of his research on real people
[6:50] Findings and implications of his study on diet breaks
[10:38] Protocols for implementing diet breaks
[13:33] Nutrition and training approach for people with menstrual cycles
[17:36] Rationale of Eric's article on reverse dieting and dynamic maintenance
[26:10] Tracking maintenance to adjust weekly or get out of a diet sooner
[29:30] Carol appreciates Philip's support in maintaining her nutrition and recognizing the value of rest days
[30:36] Science related to energy expenditure and flux
[34:44] Physical activity level and appetite regulation
[36:32] Current stance on plant-based vs. animal protein
[42:16] Strategies for omnivores to include more plant-derived protein
[44:49] Psychological aspects of dieting in the context of tracking
[49:25] Area of research that is exciting right now
[52:04] Impact of metabolic adaptation on weight loss success
[54:50} Learn more about Eric
[55:38] Outro
Episode resources:
Eric's Instagram: @trexlerfitness
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
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IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Dr. Eric Trexler 00:00
The people who avoid metabolic adaptation effectively are not necessarily the people who have more success with their weight loss or their long term maintenance of that weight loss. There are so many more important factors impacting the success of a diet phase and the subsequent maintenance.
Philip Pape 00:19
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I have the pleasure of chatting with the renowned Dr. Eric Trexler. As we delve into nutrition science, psychology and application, we'll explore the intersection of his personal experiences academic research and practical coaching, touching on topics like diet breaks, dynamic maintenance, plant based protein and more. Eric Trexler is a pro natural bodybuilder and a sports nutrition researcher with a PhD in human movement science from UNC Chapel Hill, and several years of university level teaching experience. He's published dozens of peer reviewed research papers on exercise and nutrition strategies for getting bigger, stronger and leaner. Eric has been coaching since 2009, and is passionate about helping people achieve their fitness goals with evidence based and personalized approaches. Eric is also the co owner of the mass Research Review, macro factor app and co owner and director of education at stronger by science, where he writes articles, coaches clients, and is the co host of the stronger by science podcast, which is where I first heard about him and his work, particularly on nutrition and body composition. Eric, thank you so much, man for joining me on the show.
Dr. Eric Trexler 01:55
I am happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Philip Pape 01:58
Appreciate it, man. Why don't we help the listener learn a little bit about you, I've got a couple of personal questions, and then we'll get into some research. So we go back a bit in time set the stage for why you do as you do. Some years ago, you were born in Ohio on a cold spring morning in 1991, as he likes to say. And you wrote that you're short and kind of slow as a 12 year old, you were training to play football. He later got into wrestling and eventually the world that you're in now with nutrition, body composition, all the things I said in the intro. So what I'm curious about is, how did the perceptions of your physical capabilities or your limitations with all those athletic experiences shaped your approach to fitness? And how does that carry forward to today?
Dr. Eric Trexler 02:38
Yeah, I think I just realized, you know, I was 12 years old, I grew up in Ohio. And, you know, football is one of the major religions in Ohio, and I really wanted to be good at it. And, you know, I never perceived that I had like, major limitations or anything like that. But I you know, I started to realize around the age of 1213. And so as you know, football, they seem to like people that are really big and really fast. And currently, I'm neither. So I realized, you know, if I want to get on the field, see some playing time, you know, I'm not going to be able to just roll up to practice in August and just kind of be in the top spot there. In terms of the depth chart, I realized, that's still accessible to me, it's still an attainable thing, but I'm probably going to have to do more than the people who are a little bit more genetically gifted for what this sport requires. So if I'm going to take that starting spot from someone who's naturally a little bit faster, a little bit taller, a little bit bigger, I'm going to have to find a way to get the edge and the way I did that was by being very meticulous about technique, very, very technical football player, and I got in the gym early and often. And and it kind of created that created that mindset that you know, when there's a goal out there, even if it is not like if you're not just perfectly tailor made for it. Usually there are some strategies that can make it attainable, or at least closer to attainable. And, and that's kind of the the approach that I take generally in fitness, which is to be ambitious, but to kind of temper that with being realistic, and to focus more on, you know, trying to be really pragmatic and saying if this is a goal, and it is somewhat realistic, you know, what are the pragmatic steps that we can take to get there?
Philip Pape 04:28
Yeah, I like that. So there's a little bit of an optimism bias, right, that kind of positivity paradox, they call it where, you know, you temper it with realism, but at least there's some some major growth that you can achieve Right? Which is, is motivational for people listening, you know, guys like me, who didn't even get started with this until four decades into my life, who may have given up hope, you know, realize that there's always something much greater you can attain to so that's, that's a great lesson right there. Alright, so you've made a point, not to just be involved in the academic side of your research, but also in implementing your research and I'm just curious or at least in in monitoring how it's implemented. So can you share an instance perhaps of when you saw the fruits of your research making a tangible impact on real people?
Dr. Eric Trexler 05:09
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, in some studies, you can see it, just with the study participants, you know, I mean, we did a weight loss trial, where, you know, we provided a lot of support to individuals who are pursuing some pretty ambitious weight loss goals, and you can see, you know, just talking to them, because there's a lot of face to face interaction, and research, just talking to them, about how they're more able to play with their children, you know, chase them around the house without getting fatigued and stuff like that they're getting back into hobbies that they haven't pursued in many years. And sometimes we even see our research getting used kind of generalized outside of the actual study participants. So a year or two ago, I had, you know, we did some research on fat free mass in pretty high level football players. And I talked with the entire staff of a really high level football team, you know, top 10 division one type football team, about how they might use fat free mass, when they are the fight fat free mass index, I should say, as a metric when they're doing recruiting, and when they're looking at player development within their program, and trying to kind of set these profiles for what a position might look like. So yeah, there have been ample opportunities to see that stuff, kind of leap off the page and get into real life.
Philip Pape 06:30
And I'm not sure how many people think about the benefits to the participants in the studies, because when we think of them as just numbers on a page when we're not in there in the trenches, like you are, and that's, it's really cool to be in a field where you're not only gathering useful and helpful data for others, but the process of doing so is helping people as well. Yeah, that's cool. So let's get into some of that research. I was looking at some of your papers trying to figure out where we cover, the first one we'll talk about as diet breaks, you publish the article in the Journal of Human Kinetics pretty recently, I think called the effects of intermittent diet breaks during 25% Energy restriction on body composition and resting metabolic rate, in resistance train females. And you compared continuous dieting to taking breaks every few weeks is what I understood, and to see if there was a difference in body composition and metabolic rate. So tell us about the findings. I'm not going to give it away. Tell us about the findings, any impact on diet breaks as a strategy.
Dr. Eric Trexler 07:27
Yes. So diet breaks got really popular back. You know, a few years ago, a lot of people were talking about metabolic adaptation, this idea that metabolic rate slows down during dieting. And that's largely driven by reductions in a hormone called leptin. And that gave rise to interest in a lot of strategies where people would increase energy intake for some period of time, try to get leapt into rise for a, you know, transient period of time. And maybe that would help stave off some of these adaptations. And so diet breaks were one such strategy that a lot of people speculated myself included, maybe this will be helpful in terms of navigating those reductions in metabolic rate, and, you know, maybe even helping with some fat loss. So, without getting too far into the details, basically, we did not find in this particular study that diet breaks led to an advantage, or a statistically significant advantage, in terms of reductions in metabolic rate, fat loss, muscle retention, anything of that nature. But we did find one small finding related to kind of more the psychological side of dieting. And that's pretty consistent with other studies in the area, indicating that diet breaks can psychologically make dieting a little bit more tolerable, a little bit more enjoyable. It's never going to be fun. But but there are a variety of different psychology and kind of subjective outcomes related to appetite, desire to eat, things of that nature, that seem to be slightly improved. And I can say, for being a coach, that that's kind of hit or miss, you know, I've worked with some clients who love doing diet breaks, I've worked with other clients who hate it, I use diet breaks as a coach, I don't use them for myself, because psychologically, I don't enjoy it, you know, so I try not to be too dogmatic about you know, should people or should they not use this, but it's more of, you know, what does this tool do and for whom might have be useful? One caveat, I'd like to highlight, we did not see those significant benefits related to metabolic rate or body composition. But there have been a couple of studies showing, you know, a similar lack of, of advantages in those areas. But what we're, you know, the theory there is that it is helping to attenuate metabolic adaptation to some extent, it is worth noting that in these studies where it doesn't seem to do that, there isn't just there's just not a lot of metabolic adaptation happening in the first place, right. So if it's like, Hey, we're doing this thing to attenuate metabolic adaptation. And the participants lose two kilograms over eight weeks, and they're not, you know, super lean, we're not really going to see metabolic adaptation. So even if we were theoretically going to attenuate it, it's, I said, it's like, you know, studying a painkiller. And people with no pain, it's like studying the repellent in a place where there's no BS, right? You're not gonna find anything. And it has nothing to do with whether or not it works. But nonetheless, as I've seen more of this research come out, I am growing more and more skeptical about physiological benefits of this strategy. I think the benefits are more behavioral and psychological.
Philip Pape 10:37
Yeah. And I think there's gonna be some time to reverse dieting when we get to that. But I did want to ask about the strategies when you do have clients that you use it with? Are you experimenting with a certain standard protocol at first? Or does it based on? Is it based on the situation that they tell you like, Hey, I'm going on, I'm going to be traveling or my weekends, I tend to eat more, or is it something? Is it always highly individualized? Or is there some default protocol you'd like to follow?
Dr. Eric Trexler 11:00
Well, if we're trying to, you know, just make this there are some instances where we do diet breaks, just because life happens, right? I'm traveling, or if I have a client who has a fairly regular travel schedule, and they're like, hey, every third week, I'm out of town. So well, let's, you know, for work or whatever, let's make that a diet break, or, you know, hey, weekends, it's just super hard to deal with. Let's make that a refeed. You know, we'll do a two or three day refeed on the weekend, around that time. So sometimes these nonlinear dieting strategies, I'll use them just to accommodate, you know, schedule fluctuations and preferences. If I've got a client who is really, you know, we don't feel the most common place, I see this as someone who has already lost a lot of weight, and they still want to lose a lot more, right? And the idea of just saying, well, let's just go in a straight deficit for another 70 weeks, it's just like, psychologically, it's like that is daunting to look down and say, Okay, well, I've been dieting for two years. And let's go ahead and push for, you know, another year plus. So, a lot of times, it's when we're looking at these long timelines for weight loss, and we've got some pretty ambitious weight loss goals. That's where I'm more inclined to go to, let's go ahead and do like kind of a default strategy. What that looks like kind of depends, you know, sometimes I'll do two weeks of dieting. One week, a diet break, sometimes I'll do two and two, sometimes I'll do three weeks of dieting, and one week of diet break. And it kind of just depends on the person. And obviously, the trade offs, there are pretty, pretty simple. The more you know, the more you increase that ratio of diet break to dieting weeks, you are slowing down the process, there's no getting around that. And so if you've got a client who's going to be really discouraged about turning a 20 week diet into a 40 week diet, then diet breaks are not probably not right for them. Or you might do like, you know, three weeks of dieting, and just one week of a diet break. But if you got someone who were like, Hey, I'm going to be dieting for the next year and a half or two years, you know, I want to lose 65 pounds, you know, I've already lost 30. You know, if we're talking about those kinds of really ambitious weight loss goals, where it's just about forward progress, we're not trying to get there in a really, really rapid rate. In those cases, we can kind of slow things down and say, Hey, let's go, you know, to and to, you know, two weeks on two weeks off, or something along those lines.
Philip Pape 13:31
Yeah. And actually, speaking of that reminds me of some female clients who who might experience a much different hunger based on their cycle. And that reminded me of a nonlinear approach of that sounds very much like what you're talking about a two week on two week off? How common is that use? Or how common is that needed or helpful for for clients that you've seen in real life?
Dr. Eric Trexler 13:51
Yeah. Specifically with regards to the menstrual cycle?
Philip Pape 13:55
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a lot of women listen to the podcast. So yeah, you know, I
Dr. Eric Trexler 13:59
try not to approach any kind of default strategy for navigating the menstrual cycle, whether it comes to training or nutrition, not because it's an unimportant physiological, you know, cyclical pattern, but because it can vary so much from person to person, you know, the more that I talk to clients who have a menstrual cycle, the more I see that you know, what works really well in this case doesn't work super well, in that case, and mass is the research we publish research review we publish every month. Our new co author is Lauren Kalonzo sample, and she is a leading expert in this area. her dissertation has a lot to do with female sex hormones. And she's written papers about training around the menstrual cycle. And, you know, in talking with her, you know, someone who is just absolutely dialed into this literature, she tends to advocate that there's really no a one size fits all approach for these types of modifications. So that doesn't, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything. But it means as a coach, hopefully, you've got really a really good coach client relationship where you can have that open dialogue. And so, like for training, for example, I don't say, oh, you know, your menstrual cycle is coming up. So I'm going to assume we need to make these three changes to it. But if my client says, Hey, I'm having some menstrual symptoms, today, I'm really not feeling up for this type of workout, then we go in and modify a few workouts, you know, around those symptoms, rather than saying, oh, because you're in this phase of the cycle, we're going to, you know, kind of dazzle ourselves with all these kind of mechanistic hypotheses about how your training should change. And I take the same approach with nutrition, if it's a situation where an individual experiences particular food cravings at a certain time of the month on a regular, you know, kind of cyclical schedule, you know, sometimes it makes sense to do a plant hedonic deviation, or to do a refeed. Sometimes, accommodating those, those cravings can actually backfire. You know, sometimes, if you know, those cravings are there, you say, oh, cool, then let's increase calories by x, you know, the fact that there's now been an allowance for extra calories, sometimes we increase calories by 2x, or 3x, you know, because it's kind of like, once the floodgates are open, you know, that, then we're kind of into, you know, a bit a bit of overeating that deviates from the plan even more than that kind of accommodation that's been made. So, for some individuals, we might even say, oh, cravings, you know, let's do, you know, a strategic increase in calories, we might find that it's really hard to rein it in, when those calories go up. And then in future months, we say, okay, that, that wasn't good for us. You know, that's, that's why I personally, you know, like I said, I, while I've done research on refeeds, and diet breaks, and I find them fascinating. I've used them for clients, I don't use them when I'm dieting, because once I start deviating from my typical daily intakes, I now want to eat way more than I used to, you know, it's kind of once I start kind of going beyond that kind of easy, predictable daily calorie intake. It's like when I'm when I'm locked into that routine, I don't even really think about overeating that much. But once I'm going above that, I say, Wow, this is really cool. I wouldn't mind going even higher, you know?
Philip Pape 17:28
Exactly. In that point, you're like, I might as well be in a muscle building phase. Now that's gonna be my diet break for the next six to nine months. Yeah, exactly. All right, cool. No, I just does interesting tangent I wanted to explore. But I do want to talk about reverse dieting for a bit, because you did write the popular and maybe notorious in some circles article titled reverse dieting hype versus evidence, you disect the evidence on on reverse dieting, which I know you will personally behind basically pioneering that maybe even the term itself, correct me if I'm wrong, but claims about it, why dynamic maintenance, which I want you to get into a bit is more aligned with the evidence and is simpler, it's a less stressful way to potentially recover from a diet. So tell us why. What drove you to want to write that article? And then what the response has been? And we can get into some of the details of it?
Dr. Eric Trexler 18:16
Yeah, yeah. So you know, reverse dieting, I certainly didn't come up with the topic. But I, to the best of my knowledge, I think I'm the first person to use it in a peer reviewed paper. And maybe even the second person as well, because I was writing a lot about metabolic adaptation between 2014 and 2017. And kind of introducing some of these ideas into an area you know, they were they existed in the fitness industry, but no one in the research world was really talking about them much. Because no one in the research world was kind of embedded in that kind of corner of the fitness world. So yeah, it's something that I was very interested in, and actually quite optimistic about when I first started looking into it and thinking about it and writing about it. As the years went on, I became less convinced about the kind of under the theory kind of underpinning it. The idea is, you know, after a diet, this metabolic adaptation has occurred. If we look at the extreme case, you might, we might find a physique athlete who got shredded for a competition and their sex hormones are low, their thyroid hormone is low. And when I say low, I mean typically well out of the reference range. Like if you went to your physician, and I've done this before they go, what's happening, some something is wrong, right. And, of course, it's just your underfed, right. It's not like there's a there's usually nothing too catastrophic going on. This is a normal response to an abnormal thing that you're putting your body through. Doesn't mean you should ignore test results. But you know, it's pretty easy to understand what's going on there. Once you talk to your physician, but anyway, low low sex hormones low thyroid hormones, you know, energy expenditure tends to be quite low in this state. And so you see that you're dieting on lower and lower and lower calories as you get into this kind of really restricted state. Now, physique athletes, that's where this idea got popular because they, if possible, they love to get back to a normal calorie intake for them. So, you know, I've been in situations where I'm dieting on under 1500 calories. And I'm like, you know, I'd love to climb back up to 2600, or 3200. But stay shredded, because who wouldn't? Right? That'd be great. As long as I feel great when when I kind of get back up to a higher intake. And so the idea was, okay, if energy restriction is causing these adaptations that are very unfavorable, and make us kind of feel like crap, perhaps we can do the opposite of that we can reverse it. Hence, the term reverse dieting, which is, instead of slowly reducing calories over time, we slowly introduce calories over time. And the idea was, maybe we can recover from an endocrine perspective hormonally. Going from negative energy balance to neutral energy balance, where instead of losing weight, now we're maintaining weight. And maybe, you know, there are some studies where, you know, they'll bring people into the lab, overfeed them by like, 800, or 1000 calories a day. And what do you know, their energy expenditure goes up, you know, they're just full of all this extra energy. And so they start fidgeting more, and their basal metabolic rate goes up. So the idea is, what if we can kind of get people recovered from a hormonal perspective, and nudge their energy expenditure upward by just slowly increasing these calories. And the idea that has been popularized is that you can keep doing this to a pretty significant extent, just kind of go up and up and up. And all of a sudden, you have these, in theory, people that are still like stage ready, bodybuilders who feel great hormones are normal ranges, they're eating plenty of food, and they're just shredded. So that's the concept. But unfortunately, for a lot of reasons that I mentioned in that article, it just doesn't seem to work out that way. You know, the, the physiological state like I said, overfeeding from your kind of natural body weight is going to increase your energy expenditure for most people. Now, it varies a lot from person to person. But if you are like doing like an eating competition type of overfeeding, you will increase your energy expenditure. But that's a very different physiological state compared to refeeding from being at a reduced body weight. And so what we see is when people are so like I said, overfeeding from your typical body weight, very different from reintroducing high food intakes. When you have been dieting for many, many weeks and lost a lot of weight, what we see is that there are a number of adaptations that occur such that we are more predisposed to kind of easier and more rapid fat gain after a significant fat loss phase. So that overfeeding process that occurs, or the kind of observations we see from people who have not been dieting really do not translate to people who have been dieting. So that's a really important point is that we have a huge difference there. There are also some points I make in the article about different metabolic phenotypes, spendthrift versus thrifty the getting into the details of that is probably excessive for our purposes here, but
Philip Pape 23:35
go read the article. I can throw it in the shownotes. Yeah, but
Dr. Eric Trexler 23:38
but the general idea is, when we look at the research on metabolic phenotypes, the people who would stand to gain the most from reverse dieting, are the least likely to actually experience any increase in energy expenditure when they slowly reintroduce calorie. So I wrote a very, very long article kind of exploring, not just why I am very, very skeptical of the concept, but also why it often seems like it works. Because I know a lot of if you if you're listening to this, you're like, Well, I don't know, I saw someone on Instagram. And they said that they reverse dieting, and now they're still very lean, and they've increased their calorie intake by 600 calories a day. I don't dispute anything in their, you know, their anecdote of what they have done. But I do dispute some of the underlying physiological conclusions that a lot of people draw based on those observations. I think, in most cases, the kind of really eye opening success stories we see from reverse dieting, working, it's really more of an illusion, that can be explained in a pretty straightforward way. Yeah,
Philip Pape 24:49
and there's two things that come come out of this I wanted to follow up on one is the practical or logistical reasons. Some times people give, you know, like, well, I can't jump back by 1000 calories overnight, you know, Is that Is that a valid concern? But it also has nothing to do with why we say reverse dieting does or doesn't work. Would you agree?
Dr. Eric Trexler 25:10
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if someone is hesitant about making a large increase in I mean, if someone wants to maintain their weight, or if they're a little bit nervous about, you know, if they at least want to attenuate, weight regain, if they want to stay pretty close to where they've gotten in their diet, well, then it probably doesn't make sense to jump 1000 calories overnight unless they're in 1000 calorie deficit. And most people at the end of a diet are not in 1000 calorie deficit, that's a big deficit. And usually the deficit shrinks over time, as the diet gets harder and harder, we're less inclined to make these big, big cuts, usually, rate of weight loss slows down. And that's indicative of a smaller deficit. But so yeah, I mean, I, I would totally say, Oh, if you don't want to increase your calories, 1000, then don't you probably don't need to in order to maintain what you've got here. But But again, that's doesn't really make an argument for reverse dieting. Right? It just is kind of an unrelated topic,
Philip Pape 26:08
right. And then the other piece is the idea of dynamic maintenance, that perhaps the reason people jump to, by too many calories and say, well, we need to reverse up is just the lack of understanding where their maintenance is at that time. And I think that's a great concept that, that I've learned personally, I mean, that's honestly been a game changer, this idea of tracking your maintenance, and being as accurate as you can, using apps or whatever it takes, so that you can adjust weekly, but also get out of a diet as quickly as possible. So maybe just I still think a lot of people aren't 100% aware of that concept, or they may not use apps that use that concept. So maybe talk about that a bit. Yeah, so
Dr. Eric Trexler 26:45
the idea with dynamic maintenance is exactly what the name implies, which is that your maintenance calories today, so the calorie intake, that's going to help you maintain your current body composition, is probably not the same number that it's going to be in six months, or a year or in 18 months. And if you're dieting or gaining weight, it's going to change a lot through you know, even someone who's trying to pretty much stay the same, it's going to change over time. But if you're throwing in weight loss phases, and weight gain phases, your maintenance target is going to fluctuate a lot. And so what we find is, when someone is dieting, and they get down to the end of a diet, their maintenance calories have dropped, it's essentially unavoidable. And that's not the maintenance level that they're gonna stay with the rest of their life, when they get out of a calorie deficit, just that alone is going to increase their basal or resting metabolic rate is going to kind of come back closer to where it ought to be based on their body size, like, just simply getting out of a deficit is going to increase your daily energy expenditure. And so what happens is, people get to the end of a diet, they say, okay, I'm good, I've wanted to lose 20 pounds, I lost 20 pounds, I'm going to increase my calories, just enough to get back to maintenance. And when they do that, since they are no longer in a deficit, they probably will observe that their maintenance level actually starts to go up a little bit, because instead of being a negative energy balance, now they're a neutral energy balance. And so then, because their energy expenditure has gone up at at this new calorie intake level, now they find themselves in kind of a small deficit again, and they can bump that up just a little bit. And what we see is that reverse dieting basically posits that if you just kind of force your intake up little by little, that metabolic rate will catch up because you're driving it up. In reality, dynamic maintenance is the idea that it you are basically catching up to these this drift of your maintenance level. So it is dynamic. As you continue trying to achieve maintenance level or neutral energy balance. It will keep drifting away from you as you start to get back to where you started. And so it's not that the nutrition changes are driving metabolic changes. It's that are you know that you're forcing your your metabolism up, it's that by getting back to neutral energy balance, your metabolism will drift upward. So you're not trying to kind of force it to do anything, you're just getting to maintenance and if it responds and starts drifting up, you are catching up to your increase in metabolic rate rather than driving it up from proactive food changes.
29:30
Before my coaching session with Philip, I was really struggling with staying consistent with my nutrition. Phillip really showed me the importance of being consistent day to day, he also helped me see that it's not a bad thing to take a rest day. He really helped me get in that more positive headspace of a rest day being something really good for me. I've been doing this for a month now. And I'm finally starting to see some progress and my numbers and I'm really excited about that and I just appreciate so much The help that Philip has given me, he's always willing to answer questions to offer resources that are totally free and very, very helpful. So I just want to say how much I appreciate that. Thanks, Phil.
Philip Pape 30:15
Yeah, it's pretty crazy how somewhat consistent This is, especially with an individual, when they've gone on multiple cycles of gaining and losing how, you know, I know for me, personally, I lose 600 calories on my expenditure. And then boop, pops right back. And all of a sudden, I need to really up my calories when we go. And so tracking that is extremely important for it. Cool. So what about the flux aspect of this? Because I'm really curious about energy expenditure and flux, which, you know, the science behind that informs a lot of your work, I think, and I'm just curious about that concept. So tell us about it.
Dr. Eric Trexler 30:49
Yeah, so energy flux is kind of the idea that, you know, we can look at energy balance, as just, you know, calories in versus calories out intake versus expenditure. And if you get to zero, you're in neutral energy balance. But the idea of energy flux is more looking at, you know, what is the absolute amount of energy kind of going through the system. So what that means is, if you're very, very sedentary, you know, you might have maintenance at a certain calorie level, let's say, it's, you know, I don't know, 2200, obviously, it's going to depend on your body size, but someone who is very, very active, their maintenance level is going to be much higher. And so, you know, if they're maintaining at 2800, instead of 2200, they're having more energy flux, because their energy expenditure is higher, than they are going to be consuming more energy to achieve any particular body composition goal. And so what's really interesting is that, you know, some folks have posited that a high state of energy flux tends to be just kind of generally better. You know, in terms of cardiometabolic outcomes associated with with doing more exercise, people have talked about high energy flux states being better for kind of long term weight loss outcomes, long term body composition outcomes with weight loss attempts. So energy flux is basically talking about not just where you're at in terms of net energy balance, but also how much energy are you can? Are you burning through on a daily basis? Kind of shifting that entire equation up or down? Relative to your daily energy use?
Philip Pape 32:31
And is it better? To say,
Dr. Eric Trexler 32:35
you know, it's tough, I think, when I'm talking to somebody with a particular goal, and when we're talking about energy flux, we're really just talking about physical activity level, like, that's really what's going on here that that's the lever we can pull, if we're trying to manipulate energy flux, or, you know, just energy expenditure, and kind of shift that entire energy balance equation up or down. When someone asks, you know, how much cardio do I need to do? I mean, you can get into real, you can get very, very lean doing minimal cardio, you're going to need some resistance training, if you want to retain muscle mass. But the question is, is there any benefit of having some extra cardio in there along the way, depending on the goal, typically, kind of, you know, so people tend to studies tend to find, I should say, that long term weight loss outcomes do seem to just be better when people maintain high physical activity levels, I don't necessarily know if that's because of energy flux, I think it might just be a simple indicator of, you know, sustainable behavior change that he puts on monitoring my health behaviors, I'm engaging in them, part of my weight loss journey was doing some exercise, and therefore I can maintain better when I exercise. So the long term data in terms of weight loss and weight maintenance do look better, in people who do a decent amount of exercise doesn't mean you have to do a ton. But for that particular outcome, you know, being in a physically active high energy flux state is a positive thing. You know, the same thing goes, the cardio metabolic benefits of exercise, totally unrelated to weight loss are immense. And being in a high energy flux state is going to be better for that. But, you know, people ask, well, do I have to do cardio to achieve a particular physique? That then my answer would be? No, you know, most people, if you're comfortable reducing your calories enough to get there, and you're lifting weights, you don't have to be you know, doing a bunch of cardio or getting a bunch of steps in in order to achieve those types of results.
Philip Pape 34:41
For sure. And I guess I didn't realize I was basically asking the question, should we do more cardio when you were talking energy flux, I hadn't totally closed the loop on that's, that's effectively what we're saying. Right? So use this terms and pretty much confuse everybody and we're like that all we mean is move more like just move more and you're gonna burn burn more calories, and that causes more fluctuation in energy at that age. Under level.
Dr. Eric Trexler 35:00
Yeah, and one thing I should also mention is, this is really important, doesn't get talked about a lot. But physical activity, like I said, it seems to correlate with long term outcomes really well. The other thing is there is an interesting relationship with physical activity level and appetite regulation, what they find is that when you increase from very, very sedentary to moderately active, it tends to help with appetite regulation, and actually kerbs over eating to some extent, what it does is it re couples your appetite to your energy expenditure, what we see is in very, very sedentary people, that becomes a little bit uncoupled and eating behaviors and appetite are kind of driven by more hedonic drivers, rather than, you know, just I need energy to account for my expenditure. So what we find is that we are kind of shifting appetite regulation away from key Donek drivers and toward, you know, just kind of pure energy balance as the main driver. And then, of course, as you start to go from moderately active to extremely active, you eat more, because you're exercising like crazy. And, and you get sense. Yeah, so. So there are benefits, yeah, benefits going from very sedentary to moderate. But once you're moderate, and above that, it's all pretty much the same.
Philip Pape 36:20
And isn't that the case with just about any health promoting activity, one tends to drive the other. And it's why wherever you can start, you know, when you're listening, we talked about this all the time, wherever you can start today start because I might start driving these other behaviors. Okay, so I want to talk about plant based stuff. So plant based protein and some other things, right, because I understand you're fully plant based now. Indeed, yeah. Let's assume the listener already knows the basics of protein, like they need enough protein they need to spread throughout the day, they want a variety of sources for that protein for a healthy dietary pattern. So with that assumption in place, how much should we be concerned about the differences between animal and plant derived proteins? And where I'm going with this is there's a lot of lot of ways you can measure these differences, right? You could talk about the amino acid profiles, quality digestibility the effect of health markers if we're looking at cardiovascular health outcomes, like hypertrophy. So what's the practical stance on all these differences in someone's just trying to plan what's on their plate?
Dr. Eric Trexler 37:19
Yeah, I mean, if you're getting plenty of protein on a daily basis, I really wouldn't worry about it much at all. You know, when we look at the studies that are trying to find the kind of optimal protein intake, you know, I mean, most Americans get a decent percentage of their protein from plants anyway, those are the people doing these studies. And then when you get outside of America, the percentage gets even higher of the percentage of total protein coming from plant based sources. So that's already baked into the literature, which is something that a lot of people don't don't really talk about. You know, depending on what country you're in, it could be like a 4060 split or like a 6040. Split. But no, no, wait
Philip Pape 37:59
a minute, that is a little surprising. So are you saying that in America, the standard, the average population gets more than protein from plants, but it's because their protein intake is fairly low? And then they tend to add more animals? I
Dr. Eric Trexler 38:11
think, I think in America, I have to recheck the paper that is buzzing around in my head right now. But I think it's I think it's 40% coming from plants. Yeah, not not the 60. I think it's 40% plants. But there are some countries where it's inverted. And I think as much as 70% of protein is coming from plants, so But But basically, the point is, when people see, oh, you need this many grams of protein per day, they kind of assume that it has to be these high quality proteins. But it's in a study where if we just want to be really lazy with the numbers, maybe about half of the protein these people are eating is coming from plant based sources, you know,
Philip Pape 38:52
that includes grains and things like people don't always think about Yeah,
Dr. Eric Trexler 38:55
yeah, they're not all eating tofu, right? Because if you're not a vegan who would, right? It's grown on me. It's grown on me. But I have plenty of omnivorous friends who think I'm insane for how much tofu terrible depending on how you, you know, like anything. Yeah, but, but anyway, you know, if you're eating plenty of protein, it really doesn't matter. The place where it really matters is if you are on a very low protein diet, and sometimes people for medical reasons will need to adhere to a low protein diet. It's not typical, but it does happen. Or if you're someone who just you're like, I really don't like aiming for these high daily protein intakes. In that case for hypertrophy, we do see differences. You know, if you're on a low protein intake, someone who's eating a lot of high quality animal based sources, probably will do a little better than someone who's eating exclusively, you know, lower quality plant based sources. So that is the spot where it matters. But as we start getting into daily protein intakes that are up around 1.4 Certainly 1.6 grams per kilogram per day of total protein intake. Once we get up to there, we're seeing these differences are essentially totally gone in terms of hypertrophy.
Philip Pape 40:09
What about for overall health? Like, I definitely have seen studies that seem to support shifting to more plant based sources for cardiovascular health, for example. And I know as an as an omnivore myself, I do eat a lot of animal sources and wondering, should I continue to work on adding more, you know, plants, other than for the reasons we should? Anyway, nutrients and diversity and fiber and all that stuff?
Dr. Eric Trexler 40:30
Yeah, I mean, when you look at the I try to look at diets in terms of dietary patterns, you know, and when you look at the dietary patterns that seem to be compatible with just very, very good health outcomes, three that come to mind are medicine, the Mediterranean diet pattern, the DASH diet pattern, and a plant based diet pattern. And so the fact that the Mediterranean diet and the DASH diet both seem totally fine and quite good with long term outcomes leads me to believe that an omnivore if they're just focused on health outcomes, they don't necessarily need to say, Oh, I really need to get more plant based. I need to swap out my animal based proteins. I think what's what we're really seeing there is when you look at a diet pattern, that that's like the DASH diet, or the Mediterranean diet, it's just a well rounded diet, you're getting plenty of fiber, you're getting plenty of vegetables, you're getting plenty of phytonutrients, you're getting all these things that you need. And you're not over eating super fatty meats on a regular basis. And I think that's really the key. So if you're someone who your omnivorous diet involves a lot of refined grains, a lot of really fatty meats and very few vegetables, you would benefit immensely if you swapped out some of the really fatty meats with some plant based protein sources that are probably going to bring in more phytonutrients and more fiber into your diet. But if you're eating a really well rounded, omnivorous diet that's even remotely reminiscent of a Mediterranean diet or a DASH diet, you're probably not going to see much of a difference swapping out your protein sources.
Philip Pape 42:06
Right. Okay. Those are good benchmarks. I've heard you talk about that before. And I've used those references as well, because they're nice go twos. You know, as much as we stay away from a lot of the names diets, those are pretty good ones. So what about studies that look at omnivorous versus vegan or vegetarian diets are unable to account for all the confounding factors were kind of the normal curve of the omnivorous diet has not as health promoting of a population as people who actively try to eat vegan? I mean, at least that's the assumption I'm making. Does it get skewed? Because of that?
Dr. Eric Trexler 42:37
Yeah. I mean, they try. Right. So statistical adjustment is a very nuanced topic, and it is a very, inexact science. So these studies, if they're if they're done well, they will try to statistically adjust and account for some of those healthy behaviors that do, in aggregate seem to differ when we compare plant based diet or to an omnivore. Are the statistical approaches perfect? No, they never are. And so those kinds of questions do tend to linger. So they might go and say, Hey, we adjusted for BMI and physical activity per week. And, you know, all these other things, smoking status, the whole deal. They do their best, generally speaking, though, when we look at studies that are really, really well controlled, that do a good job trying to parse out some of those confounding variables, plant based diets versus omnivorous diets, you know, sometimes for it depends what health outcome, right? I mean, there's a lot of different things that that can make you sick or kill you. And the effect for one is not going to be the effect for another But broadly speaking, plant based diet seem to do either they either have similar outcomes or slightly better outcomes compared to omnivorous diets. But how many omnivores are eating a DASH diet pattern or, you know, adhering to a Mediterranean? A lot of times the, I mean, the omnivorous diet is kind of the default diet. Right? Yeah, that sounds a Western diet. Reverse diet, right. So I would venture to say if if you kind of sorted out all the people who were on kind of some of those like very Western diet patterns that you know, have a lot of what we might colloquial meats and things. Yeah, yeah, processed meats, you know, a ton of added sugars, things like that. I think that's where you would start to see those differences really just disappear.
Philip Pape 44:29
Yeah, cuz I think this is where you see studies on artificial sweeteners, seed oils, you know, the big hot topics today. And it gets so thorny when you look at that because you're wondering if it's just, you know, people have healthy dietary patterns, or people who don't, and they're seeking to be healthier, right? And in case of artificial sweeteners, right, you get all these compounding factors. So okay, I wanted to ask you one one other question about dieting, and that was the psychological aspects of dieting, specifically tracking because there's always a little bit of controversy and there seem to be camps out out there, when it comes to different nutrition coaches and whatnot, do you track I'm anti tracking and this and that, for me personally, I've seen and I've even had some friends who were, you know, maybe resistant at first and I gently asked them to try it out. And they're like, you know, this actually gives me an increased level of awareness. And I can track things like fiber micronutrients and all that. So it ends up being a powerful motivator for some people. And for others, it doesn't work. So well. What are your thoughts on all these aspects of dieting, the psychological aspects in the context of tracking?
Dr. Eric Trexler 45:28
Yeah, so tracking is interesting, because there's a lot of things we can track, you know, so the kind of classic approach is tracking calories or macros, right? carbs, fats, proteins. And we do have some research indicating that in randomised controlled trials, tracking your food does not seem to cause disordered eating. If you are already highly predisposed to disordered eating, it could certainly cause symptoms to manifest, you know, it can kind of tap into some of those underlying predispositions. But broadly speaking, you know, I don't feel uncomfortable with someone who has no eating disorder history saying, Yeah, let's go ahead and track calories and see how we do. But having said that, it's not the only way to track you know, so a lot of times tracking calories, oddly enough, will bring people a lot of psychological peace. It'll bring them calmness, it's kind of like when you've kind of been worried about your finances, and you finally work out your budget. And you say, No, I know, I can afford that. Because like, I literally crunched the numbers, and I feel good about spending money on myself, because I know it fits my budget. It's a similar thing with calories, where someone looks at that, you know, something that's maybe a little bit sugary, and instead of wondering, is this what's going to hold me back, they say, No, I know, I can fit that in, because I did my my calorie budget. But for some folks, you know, tracking calories, and macros is not going to be the way to go. You can track bigger picture food categories, you can track, some people just do protein and fiber, if I hit those, I'll be good. Sometimes it's food groups, you know, I got my four servings of fruits and my five servings of vegetables, right. And then you can even track getting way into a different realm, you can track elements related to mindful eating, right. So just tracking things like subjectively how you felt before, during and after a meal, what you were focused on during that meal, whether or not you were distracted as you were eating. So tracking can take so many different forms. And ultimately, if you're a coach, working with someone, or if you're someone working with a coach, tracking something is going to be helpful, because it's going to allow for some degree of transmitting data data back and forth. But if you're a coach out there listening, I would encourage you work with your clients and figure out what the right thing to track is, could be calories and macros for many people it is it's a highly effective strategy. But for some folks, you might find that tracking other things, or a combination of things actually leads to to better outcomes for that person.
Philip Pape 48:00
Do we know if there if there are studies that look at the reasons people don't like tracking certain with certain methods, like calories and macros? Are there good. You know, histograms, you know, that show us that these are the most common reasons, and therefore, you know, that's where we can tackle the kind of resistance to that, for folks that want to do it, but feel like, it's not for them just yet.
Dr. Eric Trexler 48:22
I'd be stunned if the research hasn't been done, but I've not seen it. Okay. But I can tell you, I can throw my two cents in there as someone who's been in this space for a while. It's I mean, tracking calories is not a convenient thing to do in most cases, right? So sure, a lot of times it's, they don't want to deal with the hassle of it. And for some folks, you know, like I said, if you're kind of, you know, for some folks who have concerns about body image, it can kind of increase awareness of it kind of leads into that, you know, awareness can be good. But if it goes from awareness to fixation, then action starts to be counterproductive. So for some people just with their kind of psychological makeup, as they start tracking things, it's difficult to track and say, Oh, well, now I know and then move on. It becomes something that causes a lot of fixation, kind of being hyper focused on it, and then it starts to really impact quality of life. So I think those are probably the two biggest sticking points. Fair enough.
Philip Pape 49:24
Do you have a couple minutes for like, couple more questions? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I was curious what what area of research is really exciting to you right now? Either personally, or something new. That's going on out there?
Dr. Eric Trexler 49:35
That's easy. Yeah. If you asked me this, two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, I wouldn't have had a good answer. But in the last year or two, there's been a lot of really interesting work coming out, looking at exercise energy compensation. So you might have heard of the constrained energy expenditure model popularized in the book burn by by Herman Ponsor. The research in that area is is fascinating. I mean, it's, I felt really lucky when I was doing my PhD that around that time, the dietary nitrate supplementation research, there were some gaps to really fill in there. And I said, Cool. This is a spot where I can jump in, make an impact, and really, you know, answer some interesting questions. Ever since doing my dissertation in that work. The nitrate stuff doesn't really catch my eye as much, I think we've largely kind of got an idea of what its potential is, seeing this exercise, energy compensation research come out has has really gotten me excited. There's some cool stuff that's been done. And there are still big important gaps to fill that will get filled over the next probably five years or so. A lot of times with research questions, I'll tell people wait 25 years and we'll know Right? With this. It's like no, this is happening right now. It's changing. You know, every six months, there's a new paper that says, Wow, that's, that's an important wrinkle that really kind of changes the landscape here.
Philip Pape 50:59
Is there a particular paper that comes to mind and we should all go out and check out?
Dr. Eric Trexler 51:02
I think there's a paper by Karo, CA, r e a u, I think is how it's spelled. That talks. I think that's probably my favorite paper about exercise energy compensation. Ponsor has a review paper from 2016. I forget the title, but it's just kind of a a nice overview of the constrained energy expenditure model. It that's kind of my place to start, if you want to say what's the stuff all about. And then there was a recent paper by Eric Willis and colleagues where they found that compensation appears to be heightened in people who are in negative energy balance versus neutral or positive, meaning that you are getting less bang for your buck, in terms of exercising for, you know, to increase your energy expenditure, if you happen to be dieting, and so that certain people were not what they want to hear. But But totally, I mean, totally makes sense, totally lines up with some of my observations in the trenches, so to speak. So it's it's a really exciting area of research. That is
Philip Pape 52:04
fascinating. I'm hoping some some of the technology eventually incorporate some of these, you know, findings as we move forward. All right. So I like to ask this of all guests. And that is, is there any question you wish I'd asked you? And what is your answer?
Dr. Eric Trexler 52:17
Yes. It's a question that I wish was getting asked a lot more. So a lot of times I talk about metabolic adaptation when I go on podcast, or I talk about tangential kind of topics, right? So like refeeds, diet breaks, reverse dieting, all these things that popped up because of concern about metabolic adaptation. But the one question I people ask me, what is metabolic adaptation? What causes it? How severe is it in magnitude? How long does it last? The one question that I wish people asked me more was, How worried should I be about it? Because I can answer all the other stuff and say, well, you're it's probably going to happen in this context. And it'll be about this big. And it probably will reverse if the following things occur. But the question of, should I worry about it? In the way I view the literature, the answer is certainly no. It's good to know about it, it's good to plan for it, it's good to understand that that is a thing that you're going to, to wrestle with if you have an ambitious weight loss goal. But what we what we find in the literature is, basal metabolic rate is not predictive of weight loss success. The magnitude of metabolic adaptation that you experience really is not that predictive of weight loss success, it occurs and it the amount varies from person to person, but the people who avoid metabolic adaptation effectively, are not necessarily the people who have more success with their weight loss, or their long term maintenance of that weight loss. There are so many more important factors impacting the success of a diet phase and the subsequent maintenance. So with all the questions I get about metabolic adaptation, I, I think they're interesting. I like talking about them. They're fascinating. They're, they're informative, and like I said, it is good to know about it and plan for it. But I wish I had more people who would say, by the way, is this something I should lose sleep over? You know, should I be worried about it? Do I need to attenuate or avoid it or mitigate it? Because the answer to all that stuff is really no, just know that it'll occur? budget for it. And when things start slowing down on your diet, now you know why, and we can act accordingly.
Philip Pape 54:27
That's why I asked you the question, Eric, so I'm glad you brought it up. I'm glad you brought it up. We shouldn't be worried about it. Just like we shouldn't be worried if it's getting our metabolism being damaged or broken or something like that, those concepts and just plan for it. I'm a nerd on this. I nerd out on this stuff. I love the graphs and everything in the following it and see what happens. But you're right, it just it comes back. Right. You. You deal with it and it comes back. You're all good. We're resilient human beings. So thank you, man. Thank you so much for this last question. Where do you want listeners to go and find out more about you?
Dr. Eric Trexler 54:55
Yeah, the best place to do that would just be Instagram. My handle is at Trexler Fitness. And if you want to learn more about the mass Research Review, which I mentioned in this episode, you can go to Mass research review.com.
Philip Pape 55:07
And if you're a student by any chance, you can get a little bit of a discount on that as well. So go check it out.
Dr. Eric Trexler 55:12
That is true. There's a student discount. And yeah, every month we put out on the first of the month, we've never been late. It's about 100 pages worth of the newest and most useful research in exercise and nutrition. We talk about all the stuff we talked about in today's episode, and obviously plenty more,
Philip Pape 55:30
plenty more almost almost so much. I wonder every month I crack it open like a gift and like which 1am I going to focus on this this month. So good stuff you guys are doing out there. Eric, thank you so much for coming on. I'm gonna add those links in the show notes. And I appreciate you coming on the show. All right, thank you. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 75: How to End the Extreme Diet Cycle and Embrace Balance with Lisa Franz
Today I’m excited to welcome nutrition expert Lisa Franz to the show. Lisa and I will discuss the importance of breaking the extreme diet cycle, and how to find a sustainable and balanced approach to nutrition, training, and lifestyle. Lisa will reveal how to maintain a healthy lifestyle as we age, strategies for being consistent while traveling, and principles of effective training. She will also share her personal experiences and insights on how to create a balanced life without feeling guilty, deprived, or sacrificing your well-being.
Today I’m excited to welcome nutrition expert Lisa Franz to the show. Lisa and I met through podcasting and the nutrition coaching industry, and I had the pleasure of recording an interview on her show, The Nutrition and Life Podcast.
Lisa and I will discuss the importance of breaking the extreme diet cycle, and how to find a sustainable and balanced approach to nutrition, training, and lifestyle. Lisa will reveal how to maintain a healthy lifestyle as we age, strategies for being consistent while traveling, and principles of effective training. She will also share her personal experiences and insights on how to create a balanced life without feeling guilty, deprived, or sacrificing your well-being.
Lisa has a master's in Exercise Science, Health Promotion, and Nutrition and is the CEO and founder of Nutrition Coaching and Life. She's also the host of The Nutrition and Life Podcast.
Lisa teaches people to navigate their own nutrition so that they know how much and what to eat, whether they want to lose weight, gain muscle, or recomp. She believes that learning to work nutrition around your life is one of the most important aspects of this journey. Nutrition should enhance one's life, not make it harder!
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:13] Lisa's personal values and backstory
[3:30] The importance of learning about nutrition
[6:45] Finding a sustainable approach to nutrition
[9:19] Exiting the extreme diet cycle
[16:44] How to find your individual sustainable approach to nutrition
[20:10] "Balance" in diet and lifestyle
[28:12] Balancing life, work, and physical health
[32:28] Max thanks Philip for helping him prioritize his health and dropping 45 Lbs
[35:55] Training principles to live by
[43:08] Nutrition and training advice
[52:25] Nutrition and training advice as we age
[55:15] Lisa's plans and projects
[57:11] Lisa's personal struggles
[1:01:41] Where you can learn more about Lisa
[1:02:20] Outro
Episode resources:
Lisa's website: Nutrition Coaching and Life
Lisa on Instagram: @nutritioncoachingandlife
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Lisa Franz 00:00
I think people sometimes struggle with is when they hear a your diet needs to feel sustainable, but then we put them in a calorie deficit. So by definition that shouldn't be sustainable because they're consuming less. So even though I try to show people Hey, the style of eating should feel sustainable, but your quote unquote complaining that you're really hungry and it doesn't feel sustainable.
Philip Pape 00:27
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm excited to welcome nutrition expert Lisa France to the show, Lisa and I met through podcasting and the nutrition coaching industry. And I had the pleasure of recording an interview on her show the nutrition and life podcast, Lisa and I will discuss the importance of breaking the extreme diet cycle, how to find sustainability and balance when it comes to nutrition training lifestyle. Lisa will reveal how to maintain a healthy lifestyle as we age strategies for being consistent while traveling and principles of effective training. She's also going to share her personal experiences and insights on how to create a balanced life without feeling guilty, deprived or sacrificing your well being. Lisa has a master's in exercise science, health promotion and nutrition and is the CEO and founder of nutrition coaching and life. She's also the host of the nutrition and life podcast. Lisa teaches people to navigate their own nutrition so that they know how much and what to eat, whether they want to lose weight gain muscle or recomp. She believes that learning to work nutrition around your life is one of the most important aspects throughout this journey. Nutrition should enhance one's life not make it harder. Lisa, it's great to see you again. And I want to welcome you to the show.
Lisa Franz 02:06
I'm very excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely.
Philip Pape 02:10
I'm also looking forward to this conversation. And I want to kind of take a step back and ask you about your personal values like what is it that drove you to start helping people navigate their nutrition, and then eventually start nutrition coaching in life and your podcast?
Lisa Franz 02:25
That's a great question. And to make it really short, and it sounds quite cliche, but still, my personal values and also the values of the company nutrition coaching and life is simply to help people improve their lives, whether that is through physical changes, through getting them to be more active or mindset changes, or simply learning to be more present and living every day as if it was, you know, the best day. That is those are all great strategies, but simply to put it in a nutshell, to help people improve their lives.
Philip Pape 03:04
And it couldn't be more simple than that on one hand, and on the other hand, people struggle with this right? And, you know, one of the things I admire about you and your work and your podcast is you focus on helping people understand the What the Why the how, and I do listen your podcasts now and one of the most recent episodes you have is about protein powders. And sometimes you get into these technical topics others are a little more general or about mindset and and so on. So besides other coaches like me who geek out on that stuff all the time. Why is it important that everyday people who are just trying to like you said improve their lives, learn about these details and get educated.
Lisa Franz 03:42
Because in the end, we only have one life and if we don't enjoy our lives and I truly believe that we need to continuously work on improving ourselves in order to enjoy our life fully and long term. Yes, we can have immediate pleasure but it's different. If you have long term goals, long term visions, and you continuously climb a ladder as opposed to having these highs and lows. And I think in order to do so nutrition plays a huge role or how we feel it provides us with mental clarity it provides us to be able to perform as best as we can whether that is mentally or physically and I myself have experienced what it's like to feel like nutrition is consuming too much of your life too much too much of your thoughts in essence and also what it is like to feel restricted through nutrition so I as you introduced me nicely. I believe nutrition should enhance one's life and should enrich experiences as we will possibly get a little bit into I myself I travel a lot. I love exploring different cultures. I believe food is so much more than just nourishment and It is social aspect, it is community, it is tradition, it is culture. And if we do it wrongly, then of course, all of that can lead to us being overweight or having a quote unquote, sugar addiction or you know, whatever it might be. And then eventually, we don't enjoy food as much anymore or at the same time, the background that I have is more from like a restrictive side. So I always thought, I need to eat less, I need to train way too hard. I went through various, very restrictive diets, like cutting out carbs, completely paleo, really low fat, like whatever it might have been. And I always thought this cannot be it food is so amazing. Why do I have to like, completely restrict myself and I cannot have that cake at my friend's birthday party or whatever, because I'm low carb, like, and eventually I found out more or learned more rather about calorie balance and how it really all just comes mostly down to that, yes, of course, food quality matters, but still mostly comes down to, to calories in calories out. And I found immense freedom with that. And so I guess that is part of the reason why I just want to share that with people to help them enjoy everyday life while getting the most out of it and find that freedom as well.
Philip Pape 06:28
Yeah, you touched on so many themes there that will resonate with the listener and myself. And as you and I talked on your show that we've you go through years, maybe decades of experimenting with all these things, because you may not have the information, or you just haven't had the clarity. And a lot of what you talked about there was shifting even how we look at food, right? We look at it as a form of fuel of performance. You talked about mental clarity, not restricting and having freedom. And the irony here is I often hear from people who are maybe a little bit ignorant about it or having, you know, been struggling, that the types of tools we use, whether it's counting macros or something else seem restrictive and seem difficult. And yet those are the very things that teach us the skill to give us the freedom, would you would you kind of agree with that philosophy?
Lisa Franz 07:21
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it even though I just said, you know, everything, more or less everything in moderation, and I believe believe we should enjoy things, there has to be some form of healthy restriction. And, of course, the research is very clear on this also that technically, any kind of diet, quote unquote, works when it comes to weight loss, and people should just stick the one that they can't pick the one that they can stick with the best. So that's not to say that for someone else, a low carb or keto or whatever diet doesn't work, it just really was not for me. And so again, you mentioned the point of education and how I like to explain things to people. And I think most people are just going to adhere or they're going to adhere long term and adhere better if they understand why they do what they do. And like you mentioned to and what sort of tools they have the possibility to have some of the reason why low carb was so restrictive for me was because I thought that that was the only way I could lose weight. And I thought that that's what I had to do. And then when someone explained, you can restrict carbs, but you could also restrict fat. And in the end, you know, pick your calories, pick your evil, and it doesn't have to be the one thing or the one day and in for the rest of your life. You can choose your tools. And I was like, Whoa, that's like mind blowing. Okay, I didn't know I had all these different options. For sure.
Philip Pape 08:47
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you also hear it since you talked about the low carb and low fat or you can go anyway, I think there's also besides misinformation, there's almost deliberate strawman arguments that are made for some of these things like, well, you know, if you cut out carbs, you're gonna lose weight. And when you look at how we define carbs, that's where we get into tricky situations, right? Where somebody says, Yeah, look, pizza, and doughnuts are carbs and like, Well, wait, it's not just carbs, carbs and fat, and it's highly palatable and very dense and all you start adding all these parameters to them. So, but people then gravitate to these things, because the they're kind of easy to understand and grasp onto. And but then before long, you find out that Oh, my God, I have to constantly like, say no to things and be the weird person at these social situations. So this extreme dieting and this cycle of dieting, right, because it's not just one extreme diet, probably if you've tried one, you've tried many over and over again. What are some of the signs that someone is just stuck there and spinning their wheels? And then how can they break free and do what you're saying and find a sustainable approach?
Lisa Franz 09:51
I love this question. And I think deep down even though many people are perhaps not, not always that honest. With themselves in the sense of how unhappy they possibly are with this up and down, but of course, a we're gonna see some physical disadvantages as in, weight goes up and down all the time. And I mean, who honestly is really happy with that if it's unintentional, especially if you if you constantly like over the holidays, you gain your 15 pounds or whatever, and then you crash diet, and then you just for your next vacation, and then you gain the gain 20 pounds back. And for most people also, it's not just a yo yo back and forth. It's also a steady but slow, incremental incline or increase over the years. And that adds up to poor health. And, again, if we're honest with ourselves, when we have those extra 20 pounds, we're probably not feeling that great in the gym. And if we're honest with ourselves, when we're that super restrictive. On the other end, we're probably also not sleeping that great, maybe not in the best mood, maybe not covering all our micronutrients. So in the end, it comes down to I think, realizing that for most people, at least a general moderation where you don't have these huge fluctuations is probably better, physically, but also mentally. And most people that come to us, they have recognized that more from a well, I guess, from both sides, but also from a mental perspective where they just say like, I don't, I don't want to feel guilty about eating that or I still want to go on vacation at the same time. But what I have done in the past with doesn't that strict diet, I couldn't do that. And so like we hear all these things, and yeah, my methods or what has worked for me, and for most of our clients also as well as that education piece that I mentioned earlier in the sense of, it's really don't, let's not look at food as good or bad. It's all just food, right? There are things we should have more of because there are more nutritious, denser in micronutrients, and probably not as dense in macronutrients. And then there are other foods that are should be that should be more like the occasional type food. And but in the end, you're technically quote unquote allowed to eat anything that you want. And you have this in that budget, just manage it like you would with an income or so. So that's part number one for a lot of people, especially if they come from this year long, restrictive mindset. Of course, it doesn't click right away. I mean, an attitude towards food that you have possibly adopted from when you were a child onwards. Um, you know, if your mom always used to tell you, Oh, carbs are bad. 20 years later, just because I tell you, carbs are just food. It's not going to suddenly be like, oh, yeah, okay, cool. I'm just gonna eat all the parts.
Philip Pape 12:52
Cool. Cool. One out of the last 100 Fitness influencers, they said says this different thing, it's going to work.
Lisa Franz 12:58
Exactly. No. So the, the key here, it really is a slow and incremental, I guess almost demonstration of its okay, so let's just say if someone starts with really low calories, like maybe, just because people always use that number, 1200 calories, whatever. And I calculate what their calories should actually be, I'm not going to say the next day from tomorrow onwards, you have to eat 2100 calories, that would be absolutely insane. And most people would not do that. So you know, we might slowly taper up those calories. On the other hand, also, when it comes to food quality, or eating out and fears around that, I might encourage them and be like, hey, once or twice a week, I do want you to go out with your husband or with your friends and have a meal out I don't just want you to eat at home all the time, because you're afraid of gaining weight from eating out. What we can do is that you show me where you plan to go. And I would show you you know what is possibly a good pic or how you could estimate for how much that is etc. or small, quote unquote treat foods or foods that they're specifically afraid of instead of them thinking, I'm off my diet. Now I'm going to have three pieces of cake. Maybe we can just get into the habit of like sharing a piece of dessert with your husband on day nine versus so it really is that slow. Taking that fear away, and then perhaps you step on the scale the next day or two days later, and you see like, oh, okay, it's actually still pretty much the same. We're still trending down even though I ate what I thought was that so like I, for instance, used to believe again, carbs would inherently lead to weight gain. And yes, I mean, of course if we look at them, cars do anything to water etc. Initially, an increase in carbs can make the scale go up, but it's not fat weight. So learning that and seeing the data that's where I think data It comes in so handy where you can be like, Hey, let's look at those correlations. Actually, truthfully, you're the scale is still trending down. So yeah. takes time.
Philip Pape 15:10
Yeah. And you just, you just laid out like five very, really very good models and ways to think of this because 99% of this game is up here, right? It's up in the if it's up in the brain, and a lot of what you were suggesting, let's get into specifics. You said, Think of it like a budget, right? It's managing like an income. And I love that analogy I use all the time myself, some people have challenged me on it, because yeah, there's differences between every analogy, but the idea that with a budget, you can spend your money however you want, but you only have this much money, and you only have this, you know, these buckets. That's a great one, you also said that your attitude ingrained from childhood is, it's like a slow ship that you have to turn around, it's very difficult. So we can't expect overnight success, which led your next concept of slow and incremental demonstration of it's okay of taking that fear away, I'm just, I'm parroting this stuff back to you. Because it's gold, like for the listener to realize that this is not a quick fix. But it's totally doable. And when you say slow years, you're still only talking a few months, you don't even a few weeks, in some cases with the right coaching, which in the scheme of life is a drop in the bucket. So I love it on and then meal planning and so on. We talked about that a lot in this show totally aligned there. And the correlations, you mentioned data and looking at correlations, your weight might go up and down two pounds, you know, one day to the next. But what's happened in your waist size? How do you feel? What are your what's your pant size? You know, did you eat like a slice of cake and actually lose weight? Like you can't, you know, you have to figure it all out. So I'm just I love this. Lisa, I'm just restating things. And I'll get to a question now. So, okay, so we're talking about sustainability. And we talked about missing information. So is, are their content? This is a very individualized approach. Right? So sustainability itself is a flexible word for the individual. Would you agree? And how do you find how does someone find their form of sustainability?
Lisa Franz 17:02
It certainly is incredibly individual. And what I think people sometimes struggle with is when they hear about your diet needs to feel sustainable, but then we put them in a calorie deficit. So by definition that shouldn't be sustainable, because they're consuming less. So even though I try to show people hate, the style of eating should feel sustainable, but your quote unquote, complaining that you're really hungry, and it doesn't feel sustainable. So while we're trying to lose weight, still acknowledging that hunger in a dieting phase is to be expected, even if it is the quote unquote, right diet for you. Um, it's almost as more of a signal of like, Hey, this is working, your body's actually burning more than what would your intaking. So we cannot fully say like in a dieting phase, you should, it should feel sustainable. But nonetheless, again, the style of eating. So like the foods that you're eating overall in the method should feel sustainable. And I think a really important part here is the consistency part. So learning for people that it's okay to be consistent 80 to 90% of the time, and those other 10 to 20% of the time, not feeling like they messed up not feeling like, okay, now I can take the whole week off, not feeling like they need to be perfect all the time, I think that can take a lot of pressure off. And at the same time, that can give us a lot of content contingencies. So if we have both of that, if we just realize it really does come down to what we do the majority of the time, and if every now and then we go above calories, if every now and then we're not meeting our protein needs of every now and then food quality was a little bit lower because you're traveling or whatever that is okay. But don't let that trip you up and just keep going. So consistency and confidence and sustainability, I think they just go hand in hand. And once you learn that, it really doesn't have to be you don't have to be perfect. Nobody is perfect. Nobody can be perfect all the time. I know we hear it all the time. But when it comes to nutrition, I think still most people have that picture in mind that they that we always feel need to feel great and need to, you know, like, put the best effort forward. It's just it just doesn't happen.
Philip Pape 19:25
Oh, you said so many great things there as well. And the one I really took from this was how, if if you're in a fat loss phase, it is true. We couldn't be in a fat loss phase forever. That's not what we're talking about sustainability. And you're right, you have symptoms like hunger and so on. But you mentioned that the principles that the types of foods, those are what's sustainable, and another way to look at it that that rang true to me was we use this periodization of fat loss and maintenance and muscle building to also make it sustainable as opposed to just randomly going through life. reacting all the time and feeling like you've had no hope. So that's what I got from at least and I know you hopefully the listener hears that. That's very powerful, very powerful statement. So then that leads to maybe balance when we talk about, you said, being able to eat whatever you want, but not indiscriminately. There's some restraint to it. And you also talked about the mental side of it, and the training and the periodization. So how do you define balance? With all those things? Nutrition, lifestyle mindset, and why is that so important?
Lisa Franz 20:34
Yeah, balance in and off itself, the word I think is so often abused, also, just hit router, like work life balance. And I know we're probably going to talk about that a little bit also. But for me balance when it comes to food is just, once again, not going overboard. Like I'm a big proponent of stoic philosophies. And the one of the stoic principles is Temperance is moderation. And I love that, unfortunately, this is not a concept that in modern society is there love, like even the you know, TV, and whatever is basically telling us, you're gonna gain 20, whatever, over Christmas. And this is your period of time where you can go all out. And at the same time, then they're advocating for the next diet, pill and whatever. So again, from often not necessarily young age onwards, but like, from a societal standpoint, we are encouraged to go overboard on the weekends go overboard, when you're on vacation. But that whole principle of like, hey, maybe let's moderate our portions. And it's, we don't have to have three appetizers, a huge main and everybody a single dessert, like, why can't we just like, share a little bit and then have a main and then maybe today, it doesn't have to be dessert because you had some alcohol. So I think it's really hard to grasp. But I also believe that once people see how good it feels, it to live in that moderate place, that they don't want to go back. So initially, quite often, when people perhaps observe my lifestyle, or other people that have been practicing moderation for some time, they think you're a bit uptight most of the time, like, why don't you just let loose?
Philip Pape 22:30
You're very disciplined, right? Like, like a monk, you know?
Lisa Franz 22:35
Yeah. Or why why? Why do you want to stop after two glasses of wine? There's still three bottles to go under pressure. Right now, like, why do I need to keep going like to is my limit? I know that for myself, why can't I just, you know, stop right here. But then, after a while, if people get to know you better, and they see how that then maybe the next day that allows you to get up early and train? Oh, that's actually pretty cool. As opposed to laying in bed for half of the day. And, and so on. Like, I often hear like, Oh, you're so consistent with everything that you do. Yes, moderation allows you to do that. If you constantly go through ups and downs and extremes. I believe that that is what causes periods of, well, I guess, where you can train, where you're just fatigued, where you burn out, etc. So I guess to answer your question, um, balance and moderation, something that you have to practice again, it really comes down to that.
Philip Pape 23:39
Yeah, you're the way you're the way your mind works. Lisa, I really I really admire I can tell you're, you're well read, like you really dig into philosophy and think about these things. Because you, you just defined balance as not living in extremes all the time, which is interesting, because you could say that one extreme balances out another. And you're saying that, well, in that moment, you're not balanced, and you're constantly living in a state of imbalance in the extremes, which is, again, a subtle but profound concept. And but you also said, practicing moderation. Now, my challenge would always be to statement like that, well, how does someone get there in the first place? Right? And you said, go by how it feels. I just did an episode about why you should track your food and the number one, the number one reason or not, number one reason the number one tactic was how does it make you feel that that was where I started. And that resonated with me because I see clients all the time who they'll say in their check in my when this week was I had I ate such and such at night. I didn't feel great the next day, you know, because they're adapted to a better you know, higher quality food and then like and I just don't eat that anymore. And that kind of reminded me of that of you build it and you learn the discipline of temper, temperance and moderation. It's not like you just sort of turn a switch and habit so
Lisa Franz 24:58
that's actually the point I do want to add One thing you said, go by how it feels. And I think the tricky part is that, um, for the most part, we again speaking as like a society have Miss learned if that's a word to to, to really listen to our body, our mind and how we feel. So my encouragement there is to a slow down like in a social setting is slowing down and adding pauses. That always sounds like so weird too. But But still, it helps so much because you cannot observe how you feel if you don't pause to observe how you feel right? Like, again, your example right there. I said the person the person observed the next day how they felt, if they perhaps would have stopped after whatever Two plates of food that they had, or a glass of wine or whatever, and just thought like, do I really need this next plate or drink? Maybe they would have said no, maybe they would have said yes, I don't know. But at least having that opportunity to change the behavior, we need to give ourselves that. So slowing down would be part number one. And then also like being more present, observant and pausing from time to time will be part number two. Without those two, you cannot shift that pattern of like just following what you have always been doing or following what society tells you to do. You know, you're on Friday night, you're supposed to just go crazy and create what you want. So no, it really is being present, being in the moment slowing down and asking yourself, Do I really need this. And then of course, lastly, it really comes down to practicing to say no more often. And that's a really unpopular and unsexy concept because we might lose friends in the process of that we might, you know, it really demands some big habit changes sometimes, but in the end learning to say no more often. And you can say no, in a really polite way. You can say oh, hey, no, thank you. I don't need a second helping. This was really delicious. I really appreciate it. Maybe I can take something home. But right now, I don't want any more. And, you know, some, initially, some people might try to push more on you or they might be offended or whatever. But it's okay, just realizing this is going to pass. At least I'm going to feel great tomorrow and the day after and whatever. And that person is going to forget about it in five minutes. Like
Philip Pape 27:19
yeah, no, don't, don't be a people pleaser. And some people are more prone to that than others. Even in addition to the situation you mentioned, perhaps the people they live with or around all the time, kind of just habitually doing things that sabotage them, maybe not intentionally, but they sometimes have to have that difficult conversation of here's how you can support me and just understand I'm doing this for my health. But there you laid another truth bomb for us there, Lisa about slowing down and using pauses. And it reminded me I always like to tie things to other topics like you did with the budget. But when it comes to podcasting, talking to people, even debating whatever it is slowing down, and listening is a very important skill. And what you're saying is slow down and listen to your body because it's trying to tell you things. So maybe I'm just silly coming up with these analogies. But these are this is what comes to me when you think about it. Right? So what what about you personally, so we haven't, I know we kind of brushed over the opening statement and then move on into the questions. You know, your your business owner, your coach, your podcast host, you're a great person, from what I can tell, how do you balance your life? How do you balance your nutrition, your training, your relationships, your emotional health, all of the things we've talked about to make it all work?
Lisa Franz 28:31
So yeah, again, in this context, really, I think the word balance is super tricky, because we're up and up the understanding of like, it should mean that all parts of life are equal, and that's just totally unrealistic. So point number one, we need to acknowledge that we go through different stages of life, and that balance is going to shift I, I either I like to think of it as like a bucket and you only have a one bucket and you can distribute the the things in there, however you like, you know, like sometimes it might be a glass pool for work and two glasses full for personal life and half a glass for emotional life, whatever, like you have this, this amount and you can distribute it however, of course, ideally, we should have a little bit distributed at each one of them at all times. But as a 20 year old, of course you're you in single you might have a lot more energy and drive to put that towards your physical health and in your 30s or when you have children whatever it might go more towards family or should potentially go more towards family at different stages, even throughout the year or even throughout the month, the week. Your work might have to take up a lot and your you have to dial your physical training back to the minimum. So I always I like to make sure I have my minimum I covered on all bases at all times. And I won't lie, my lifestyle was probably reasonably unique. And well in a way that I'm, I live alone I travel. I'm a digital nomad. So I don't know a lot of people around me most of the time, like my family is remote. Also, I see them once a year for a couple of months, and then very intensely, but otherwise, it really like my relationships, I guess, are probably rather few in comparison to a lot of other people. And I don't have family. So you know, I can devote all my attention towards my physical health, and my business, which I love. So that is very different to most people, I think, especially a lot of our clients, they often say, I'm struggling fitting in my workouts with all my kids. And of course, I think no matter who you are, where you're at, one of the most important things you can do is get super clear on your priorities and like re evaluate them on a regular basis, because again, they are going to potentially shift places a little bit on a regular basis. And that's okay, or actually, it's the man at sometimes. So if you are clear on your priorities that makes saying yes or no to whatever comes up so incredibly easy. So I just shared like, one of my priorities is my physical health and like pushing my training, I get joy out of it, and so on. So if someone would say to me, like, Hey, Lisa, tonight, Friday night, there is an open mic at 1130. At the start, you want to come along, I'd be like, Nope, I don't have to think about that for a second because I want to be in the gym tomorrow morning at six o'clock. So, you know, for someone else who's like, well, I don't know right now, like my family is my focus, it might also be an easy decision, because you should probably spend if your family is your priority, and you're working all night long, you might want to go to the bar tonight. But since you said your family is your priority, you should probably stay home have like a pizza and movie night with them instead. And then spend the weekend with them quality time as opposed to sleeping in tomorrow morning. And you know, whatever it is. So just being really, really clear on your priorities. I think it makes everything easier. And then you can shift those then you can establish your own life work whatever balance
Philip Pape 32:24
right like shifting calories around, you know for the day.
32:28
That's a Philippe an awfully for a long time and know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably relief helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.
Philip Pape 33:12
Yeah, that that is so good. So again, we're talking the theme of it's not so much balance as living moderately within your within your capacity and for the time that you're in. But then, but then putting everything you can or at least as much as you can to the things that really matter right now. It's kind of the way I look at it, I like that you're, you're like we have this permission to not neglect things, but to put them at their minimum for a while, while others go up. And by the way, if you focus on something pretty intensely for a while and develop that mastery, it's going to help make everything else easier, right? Like physical health will make, you know, earning your wealth and developing your relationships easier. You know, having healthy relationships will reduce your stress so that you can, you know, maybe have burned more calories so you can eat more and train and so on. So again, this is Lisa, really amazing insight for folks to think of it this way. Getting clear on your priorities are what are the thing comes to mind there is I just told a friend of mine yesterday, I said, Man, does it ever stop. Like when we're going for mastery in anything? Do we ever stop to the day we die and of course we're never really going to stop but you could put something on pause and you could coast and by having focused on one thing for enough to be happy where you are at that level. Go ahead and coast on that for a while, you know, keep maintain it, but post on it. It's a great, that's a great that's a
Lisa Franz 34:33
great point. I think muscle mass or physical like training status is a great example. Like it takes so much more and longer to build up muscle mass but then training it. You actually really don't need that much volume for a couple of months. I think a lot of people saw that over COVID lock downs and they were like, oh, okay, it might have taken a couple of weeks for strength to come back or for you to feel good again in the gym, but general At least speaking, muscle mass is reasonably easy to maintain. And again, like with anything else if you're if you had established a routine, and it really has had become an automated method routine, getting back into that, after a little bit time off is reasonably easy, as opposed to start with something completely new.
Philip Pape 35:19
Yeah, no, that's a great one, too. I think it's like 116 to 1/8 the amount of like intensity or volume to maintain your muscle mass. So you're right. It's, it's like, that's your reward for having gotten there. I think of food in a similar way. Like once you've added muscle mass, and you're moving all the time, now you've got more calories to play with. Well, now it's a lot easier to you know, you don't even really have to dye it technically in the way you used to because it's just easier. Right? Okay, so, ah, let's talk about training a little bit. How about that? Okay, great. Yeah, sometimes I segue smoothly. And sometimes I'm like, let's just change right now. Next book. So I am curious about your perspective, because we talked about that a lot on the show, you know, it's Wits, & Weights? What are some of the let's talk principles? Again, you're you're big into principles systems, not not necessarily the methods so much, what are the big training principles that you live by,
Lisa Franz 36:09
and I can pick up from the nutrition aspect from earlier consistency, like full stop, I, we can preface this completely with just this one word. And, again, even though we just spoke about taking some time off, generally speaking, though, if you can make it into the gym twice a week for the rest of your life and move for like, 45 minutes or so, you're gonna be in a good place. Like, that's already something I mean, anything on top of that is going to be great. And let's put like walking in sort of day to day activity aside. But yeah, those the two, three sessions three will be even better. Mmm, that's great. Like I personally, since I have a lot of time,
Philip Pape 36:50
yeah, sorry. No, no, let's stop there. Because people need to understand, look, what is it take for the rest of your life to do something twice a week for like, an hour or two? And now I want you to ask, How often do you watch Netflix? So there you go. Can you do it? I think you could do it very easily
Lisa Franz 37:04
keep it very, very good. And I mean, we're literally talking about like, 45 minutes to an hour in there. So yes, absolutely. Kind of makes you feel great. So why not? Yeah. So I mean, you said Wits, & Weights. And I automatically kind of like assumed we were talking about strength training, because I'm totally of the same opinion not to say that cardiovascular health isn't important. But I think most of the time, we're most of the clientele that we deal with. And they come more from an endurance type background, or maybe like, group fitness style background. So the challenge was more to get them into structured strength training, pushing the weights up, increasing risk times, and getting away from just chasing the burn chasing the sweat. And again, I come from, I'm saying that or I'm now at this point, because I was somewhere completely different. In the past, I have more of a CrossFit background, I used to believe if I don't lie on the ground, sweating, or if something didn't hurt, then it wasn't a good workout. A long way since then, and have learned most importantly a lot since then. And now I know that a soreness really isn't a good indicator for how good your workout was, or how effective your warhead was. And be in order to improve body composition to increase my lean body mass, which is so helpful for just longevity, metabolism, like you name it, I really don't need to be doing or not just that, like those circuits had training. CrossFit is not the most optimal style, particularly for someone with a stressful lifestyle. Again, if you are a 19 year old, teenager, whatever, em who has nothing to do, but train and recover and sleep and eat. prospered can be a great sport for you. But for most people, particularly if you're easily stressed and you don't sleep too well. And it's likely not the best form for your health or your physique. And again, people that come to us, they are really mostly interested in the aesthetics and of course longevity. They always say like, I want to feel sure sure
Philip Pape 39:27
they say that and it's like okay, let's let's get you the short term results as well. Just so you know, you know that it all ties together.
Lisa Franz 39:36
So yeah, I guess to expand further beyond the three training sessions or so per week. The kind of training split that then follows I think is determined by how much you can train if you can train more than three times per week. I do prefer often a body parts split or upper lower split, or push pull legs or something I like that very few people or hardly anybody that I work with trains six days a week, to be honest. Um, but anywhere, like if you do three, three days per week or two, I certainly advocate for more of a full body split just because we do want to hit those muscle groups like twice a week, like each muscle group. And we're simply more on the safe side with with a full body split in that regard. But yeah, I usually base my programming around, of course, a little bit of a warm up, but around the compound lifts, and then a little bit of accessory work compounds meaning squats, deadlifts, presses, just those big movers where we in clewd, a lot of muscle group groups or big muscles. And then the accessories I do think are incredibly important, often overlooked. And when I say compounds that can also sometimes be for someone see single leg barbell deadlift with various
Philip Pape 40:58
multiple compounds with dumbbells and so on. Yeah.
Lisa Franz 41:03
I do think almost everybody has a stronger side and a weaker side identifying that and then kind of balancing things more out with unilateral stuff, or as you said, with various types of equipment to address one side more than the other can be really helpful. But yeah, I tend to keep workouts under an hour or have around about an hour. Because I don't think it needs to be more than that. And oftentimes the mind starts to drift for people that are already halfway at work or not to
Philip Pape 41:30
mention the depleted carbs by that point. Yeah, yes. Oh, so this is great. Because, man, for the people listening, they hear this stuff over and over because I say it, but I like to have guests on like you that I mean, we are 100% in alignment, these, these are the bedrock principles you talked about. And you just stated them so elegantly. I like in one sentence, you said structured, pushing the weights up, increasing the rest times, not chasing the burn. I'm like, right there, those are the opposite of what a lot of people are doing, right? They're not structured, they're just exercising, like I like talked about the difference between exercise and training training, they're not pushing weights up, it's the same way day after day after day. They have like 32nd rest periods, and they don't realize how amazing it is to have 2358. If you're like pushing a big heavy deadlift or something, it depends how strong you are, and then not chasing the bird, right? If your clients are saying, I'm so sore, and I'm recovering, not recovering all the time, something is off, right? That's what so I love it, all the other stuff is great, I'm not going to repeat it. But you know, folks should should keep listening to this, again, about the value of not just for your physique in the short term, but also your health in the long term. And stress is important. If you're busy, you have a job and kids and family and like Don't be doing CrossFit. Don't be doing maybe a five day 90 minute a day workout session, you know, training program.
Lisa Franz 42:51
I think the tricky part. And again, just sharing from like personal experience, the tricky part for a lot of people is that the training feels great afterwards, right? Like, especially if you if you have had that sweat, and you're like, Oh, I feel so good right now with that release of adrenaline and all the rest of it. And so, for me, it was incredibly hard to make that connection between like, this is a stressor that can be negative for my body just like an argument with my partner or just like something at work. Because to me, it felt so good to like how can something that feels so good in the moment or afterwards be bad for me or contributed? Like I actually thought like, oh, I need this as an outlet. And so communicating that nowadays, it can be tricky to to get that buy in. Because we again, we go by how we feel right? Most of us are in this incident, we go by how we feel anyway. And so we feel great afterwards. So how was the bad for me? So, yeah, the only way to get through there, in my opinion is Well, number one education, just showing, you know, the research the data, etc. And then also saying, can we just give it a try for a little bit. Maybe after two weeks, people realize, okay, I'm not waking up four times a night anymore, because I'm overly stressed can actually get away with only once or twice. And I'm actually not feeling so beat up anymore all the time. I have energy for my work for my kids. And so then once they feel that, then you get the buy in. But yeah, it can be tricky from a coach's perspective. And of course, again, I understand from a client perspective as well.
Philip Pape 44:32
Yeah, I mean, listeners, Lisa knows her stuff, for sure. So listen to her, Listen to me, and then try it and then get the feedback so that it proves to yourself that it works. But you're right, taking that first step. It's like if hopefully, if you sought out a coach and you're working with a coach, you're open to listening to something that's different and uncomfortable from what you've been doing, knowing that it could possibly produce an incredibly different results. So that's the philosophy you want to have. But if you're gonna if you're doing it on your own experiment, experiment, like just try Are these things you know? And see what comes of it? A few more questions, because I'm really loving this conversation, I think the listeners getting massive value from what you're saying and the way you're saying it. So. So then how do you when you are working with clients, you mentioned all these principles of training? How do you help the clients find a program that suits suits their needs? And then you mentioned things like preferences, their capacity, their equipment, all that? And do you do you actually write the programming? Or do you work with other trainers? for that?
Lisa Franz 45:26
No, I I read the programs that we have in our training app. I will say, I think training is a little bit different, or training programs are a little bit different than nutrition. I do think with nutrition, we always have to 100% have an individualized approach. I think when it comes to training programs, the majority of people like 95% of people are probably going to do great with a good generalized program. So of course, making their individual adjustments to it if needed. But I think there's nothing wrong with going online and purchasing someone's great training program, if you if they're a trusted person, you know, and it doesn't you don't have to invest into a personal trainer or having an individualized training program. 100%. I think the the first question again, you should ask yourself is, how many days? Can I contest like overtime? Really, realistically, train? I mean, oftentimes, when starting out, we're super ambitious and think I'm going to increase to five times Well, let's, let's start smaller, right? And, and then once you know the answer,
Philip Pape 46:38
if somebody said, I only can do it one day, would you challenge that? Would you like push them to at least try to do two? Or would you start at one?
Lisa Franz 46:44
No, probably, I would probably start pushing them to two, just from the also getting them the results perspective. Just from of course, one is better than nothing, and so on. But aside from that, with two, they're gonna see twice the results, probably. So yeah, I just want
Philip Pape 47:04
people to know, you know, it's not, we don't want to make excuses. You know, there's certain minimums for some of these things.
Lisa Franz 47:08
So yeah, going by the time that you have available, and then assessing your equipment, we have a lot of people working out from their home gym, they have barbells, in most cases, dumbbells, kettlebells, that kind of stuff. And then a few people, of course, going to the gym. So I think that provides a lot of guidance already as to what kind of program program can I purchase? And then making sure that the program is the duration as well that you want not an hour and a half when you only have 45 minutes. And yeah, then I think I mean, I'm obviously coming from my perspective here. But then a good criteria should be that there's sufficient rest times in the program and kind of looking at the biggest part probably being what is my actual goal also. So meaning, if you're someone who wants to, quote unquote, shape their butt, or glutes, or whatever, and you look at the program, and there's only one lower body day in there, that's not lining up if you if you want, right, so thinking a little bit like what is my actual goal other than just building muscle or getting stronger, whatever? Do I have a particular area that I want to or need to focus on, maybe you've had an injury years ago, and you want to now build up your leg strength, maybe you have lower back issues that you need to take into consideration? And so like thinking about that, having a clear, clarity around your goal is really, really helpful when it comes to that also.
Philip Pape 48:36
All right, cool. Just just taking notes here this this makes some sense. I like how you mentioned that a template could definitely work. I agree. I actually just interviewed Andy Baker, I don't know if you know, he's he's like co author of practical programming, and you don't seem I actually run his programs, which are most of them are templates, or they're close to it. And you kind of learned to make substitutions and things as you get more advanced and a coach can help you with that. I find that the other thing that coach is really good for us is your form and technique when you first start right just because that's a chance for injury, which which is true. I don't want to scare people about that. But also just being efficient and making progress right doing it the right way.
Lisa Franz 49:15
Totally. I do want to add two things here. So of course still, if you can't afford a coach or so, filming yourself is actually incredibly helpful. Like if you have an exercise video that's attached to your template and then even just like once in a while, once a month filming your exercises, it can provide a lot of insight like even for mice. I mean, I've been training for like over a decade now or whatever. And sometimes I feel myself like Oh, I thought I was not running my lower back here when I go into that Romanian deadlift. And then I did like it's actually our body awareness is not that great sometimes. And yeah, the the other thing when it comes to autoregulation or so a framing program, another mistake that people generally make is program hopping too much, or changing things up too quickly. So that would be another red flag if your training program would change every week or every two weeks, even I think even every four weeks is a bit of a push. Like, I think there's technically nothing wrong with following the exact same program for 1216 weeks. If you
Philip Pape 50:22
progress Okay, sure. Absolutely. For sure. Yeah, no, I
Lisa Franz 50:25
do get that people sometimes feel a little bit, quote unquote, bored. But again, it's learning to sit with that a little bit, especially if you if you come from more of a group class, what I will do sometimes is I'll, you know, give the clients a bit of a finger or a hand and be like, Okay, we'll change it every six weeks, you know, so that, at least you have something to look forward to, if they're if they're getting too itchy. But yeah, to your point of like, novices not making too many changes to a program without checking with a coach or so. But if you're more experienced, and you notice all every time I do this, and that I can't actually connect to my lats as well as if I do that unilaterally or so that's, that's another issue or changing the equipment. That's no issue, you know, sticking with the general movement patterns, I think that's a good idea. But other than that, as a more advanced or intermediate lifter, totally find them exchange.
Philip Pape 51:20
Yeah, and to your comment about avoiding program hopping and not being bored, because I'll tell you, some of my clients know, like, the very, very basic starter programs I work with them with, are pretty darn boring, right? Like they're very, very, very basic, because they're very effective for getting super strong. So what we do is we focus on other things like, and before, after about three weeks, or like, another PR, another PR, and that becomes the metric. And I'm cool with that, you know, like if that's their PR. The other thing is, so I'm more I guess, intermediate, if you will, and I just switched to another program that I had run two years ago, and everything is sore the first week, you know, because you haven't been doing those movements. Even if you're strong, it's just and so from a microcosm, if you program hop, you're going to be getting sore all the time, you're not going to be pushing certain lifts. It's one thing to change accessories on a semi weekly basis. But it's another thing to just change everything all the time. Right. It's fun stuff. I love talking about this. Okay, Lisa? So tracking Well, no, I don't let's not talk tracking, I'm actually more curious about like older folks who are like over 440 is the magic number we always use for whatever reason. What adjustments would you make, you know, and I want to look at it from a balanced approach, I guess I have, on one hand, a lot of things are the same, right? Whether No matter your almost no matter your age, no matter whether you're male or female, and then there are things that are different, right, like hormones change your lifestyle, your stress changes, your recovery capacity changes. So what kind of what's your big picture advice? Maybe in terms of principles?
Lisa Franz 52:49
I'm generally just because someone would fill in an intake form and take 41 rather than 28, I probably would not change anything in terms of the training program, right? If they said to me, I have already had this many injuries, and I'm constantly nurturing my lower back or hip or something like that, I would approach it differently. I mean, we have always again, still have to kind of consider the individual. more from a nutritional perspective, probably, I would absolutely make sure that they're maybe not on the higher end of protein, but certainly not skimping on the lower end. I think when we're like in the early 20s, etc, we can more easily build muscle or build lean body mass and on maybe more like 0.7 grams of protein per pound of body mass. But as we get a little bit older, I do like to see it around that one gram. So that would be one part. What I do, unfortunately, caution and especially women as they enter perimenopause, and go through menopause, and so on, it's just alcohol, unfortunately, and the body just tends to be less forgiving. It's it's just a fact. So if someone wants to lose weight, and consuming more alcohol throughout that time, it's more like driving with a handbrake on, it's not impossible, it still comes down to calories, etc. But because you have those hormonal fluctuations, so that would actually be more things to pay attention to, in terms of training, still totally encouraging people to lift, heavy, progressively overload. And sticking with the same principles, really, I would, I wouldn't change anything. Maybe you know, someone really gets up there in age 70s or higher, really utilizing a lot of balance work, maybe incorporating a little bit more coordination things more, even more unilateral stuff and so on.
Philip Pape 54:59
They've got a lot A lot to make up for for the many years. Yeah, for sure.
Lisa Franz 55:03
Precisely. But otherwise, I think, as you said, principles remain the same.
Philip Pape 55:08
Yeah, no, that's great. And that's what it's all about. Once you have the principles, you can build anything from that you can there's countless permutations. All right. So let me see what else. How about you? What are you doing in the future here, Lisa? Like, what are your future plans or projects? What do you have going on in your business? Just come. So
Lisa Franz 55:25
I actually have three coaches that also work for nutrition coaching and life, which I'm super excited about. And they're three amazing ladies and x. Actually, next month, we have our very first team meetup planned in Canada. So I'm excited to meet them in person because I have known most of them for years and never met them. It's funny how, like, I love it. Internet connections, you feel like you know, people so well, and then you get to meet in person?
Philip Pape 55:56
You know, it's gonna be, you know, it's gonna surprise you as their height. That always surprises me everything, like proportions, you can't tell?
Lisa Franz 56:04
That's a really good point.
Philip Pape 56:06
Just let me know, send me a message. Would you tell me if it wasn't?
Lisa Franz 56:10
Yeah, aside from that, in terms of business, and also, personally, really, to be honest, just cracking on continuing on with what we're doing with our mission of helping people enjoy their lives more, and I'm just hoping to get to reach more more and more people throughout time. And that's it. Yeah, I truly love what I do what we do. And I mean, even in my free time, and I'm sure you can relate to this. I love reading research listening to podcasts. I would 100% continue doing what I'm doing, even if it was not for to get paid.
Philip Pape 56:45
Yeah, that's exactly. That's what it's about. Like, it's a wonderful way to live, and you're providing value and helping people and then it happens to bring bring some income, because you know, it's worth something that people but what matters most is the mission. So Wow, congratulations on that. I mean, I'm not surprised, you know, the way you explain things and your temperament. And, you know, the education and all of this is is what people need, you know, to succeed what people need to succeed. So, I do like to ask this second, the last question of all guests, what one question Did you wish I'd asked? And what is your answer? That's,
Lisa Franz 57:19
I actually had, think about that for a little while. Um, I guess, yeah, you will have actually already asked that a little bit. But nonetheless, I do want to highlighted maybe what my own personal struggles are. And I don't think I brought that across as well, because I was kind of talking like, I came from my high horse there.
Philip Pape 57:39
But no, not at all. I jumped you right into the topics, you know, it's okay. Tell me about your personal struggles out, that would be good context.
Lisa Franz 57:47
I do struggle with being present in the moment. I, I love planning. And I, I love the feeling of control. So planning gives me a sense of control. And because of that, I also get a lot of joy and excitement out of planning future travels, planning, what the rest of the year looks like planning where I want my business to go. And then sometimes it's like, almost like I go through my to do in my checklist. And I feel really satisfied at the end of the day, because I did it. But then I was like, how many times throughout the day? Did I actually just like really 100% Be present with what I was doing at that time. And so, yeah, even I mean, I was speaking to someone about that yesterday, like now, when we're at the grocery store, you know, we feel like we can answer a few more texts or emails or whatever. And I it does take me conscious effort. In those moments to restrain myself from doing that or another, you know, numerous situations throughout the day. I'm just like, just just stand here just like, just be don't just plan don't try to control everything. Just just be and that yeah, that is I think, day to day struggle for sure.
Philip Pape 59:03
Well, you're my doppelganger, Lisa, because that's you speak everything to me. And so how do you do it? Because I want to know the answer, like, what have you been working on? Or is there a secret? Or is there one thing that's, you know, the special sauce to doing?
Lisa Franz 59:15
Well, I wish there was I wish there was I mean, I do think that I meditate every evening to like Roundup my day and I go for daily walks and on both of those. They helped me a be present more in the moment and be moving more and more away from like, having that feeling of every time when I go for a walk, listening to a podcast. No, maybe today is the day where you can just go out without anything. Just leave your phone here because then you're tempted to discover it every time. And same with meditation doesn't always have to be like a guided meditation, whatever, just just be. And those things can offer themselves our practice as well but they carry over into like every minute of the day. So yeah,
Philip Pape 59:59
this is So good. I always love specifics, right? Because that's everything we do when it comes to coaching is like, somebody wants to know how you do this, right? People who have been struggling, just don't know what to do. Same thing with you and me when it comes to being present. And always being typing and wanting to plan everything that you just said, to leave your phone behind, or like right there that resume with me, like, I need to do that. Because you're right, you just listened to the podcast, you're checking, whatever, you know, messages, or how's the podcast doing or
Lisa Franz 1:00:30
even just like that education piece for me, like it's a feeling of being productive. And of course, that feels good to me, like I'm doing something. And there's nothing wrong with that. On the contrary, other people wouldn't be listening to us right now. But it's also again, just learning to sit with that stillness, that uncomfortable and it is uncomfortable, like sometimes even just leaving that from behind, like, sense of anxiety, right? And like, no, whenever I do, do, do leave my phone behind the first, probably 10 minutes, I'm bored out of my mind, I'm like, Oh, I would have taken my phone. After while actually, the creativity starts going, something like my mind just starts drifting, I start noticing a bird there. It comes over time, but we need to like allow that consciously.
Philip Pape 1:01:17
I totally agree with that. Because when I've done that, and gone on walks, it's like, sometimes I end up starting, I speak out loud, you know, nobody's I just started talking and talking through ideas, or I might practice like, and maybe that even is trying to do something because again, your body wants to do something. But still, this goes back to your conversation about balance and the things that are maybe down at the minimum, and now you're trying to push them up. And so that's where we need to challenge ourselves. All right. So with that, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? Lisa?
Lisa Franz 1:01:46
I'm most active on Instagram. It's at nutrition, coaching and life. And that's also the name of the website, nutrition coaching and life.com. And as you said, the podcast is nutrition and life. And yeah, but the most, I'm probably most active on Instagram.
Philip Pape 1:02:05
All right, definitely. Because you're listening to a podcast right now. Go into your app and find nutrition and life and just follow it super easy one tap, do it, and you will not regret it. Thank you so much, Lisa. I'm gonna add all that to the show notes. Of course, this was a lot of fun. This was very enlightening. I learned a lot I know the listener did too. And I want to thank you for coming on the show.
Lisa Franz 1:02:25
It's been a true pleasure. Thank you.
Philip Pape 1:02:29
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 74: Bigger Gains, Tracking Your Food (or Not), and Fitness Principles with Carl Berryman
Today, I welcome back Carl Berryman, a friend, a peer, a mentor, a brother, and the host of Inspired by Impact - A Podcast for Men, for a fascinating conversation on crushing body composition and fitness goals. We explore vulnerability, taking action, and introspection in personal growth. Carl shares his experience with progress tracking, muscle building, and the impact of lean muscle mass. We discuss overcoming plateaus, support systems, and the mind-muscle connection. Touching on setting weight goals, self-acceptance, and daily gratitude, Carl introduces his "cookie jar" ritual for reflecting on accomplishments.
Today, I welcome back Carl Berryman, a friend, a peer, a mentor, a brother, and the host of Inspired by Impact - A Podcast for Men, for a fascinating conversation on crushing body composition and fitness goals. We explore vulnerability, taking action, and introspection in personal growth. Carl shares his experience with progress tracking, muscle building, and the impact of lean muscle mass. We discuss overcoming plateaus, support systems, and the mind-muscle connection. Touching on setting weight goals, self-acceptance, and daily gratitude, Carl introduces his "cookie jar" ritual for reflecting on accomplishments.
As one of the few men who genuinely inspire me to be better, I had the privilege of interviewing Carl on Wits & Weights Episode 47, and he interviewed me on Episode 37 of the Inspired by Impact podcast.
Tune in for an insightful episode that inspires you to tackle your fitness goals with determination and focus.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[5:05] Vulnerability vs. taking action
[7:43] Principles and methods in managing energy balance, and tracking
[15:57] Sustainability, mindset, and goals
[19:40] Carl's story
[23:17] Longevity and health that come from lean mass
[25:01] Lifting heavy, progressive overload, and the right mindset
[27:29] Pushing through weight and lifting plateaus, and identity-based habit
[33:22] How his support system contributes to his process
[38:51] Measuring everything in the day-to-day
[43:21] How Carl is dealing with his weight stall
[45:03] The problem with tracking and a different approach to tracking
[52:22] What surprised Carl during the process
[55:16] Listening to music while working out
[57:32] How to know when you're done and when to switch gears
[1:01:22] The question Carl wanted Philip to ask him
[1:06:04] Outro
Episode resources:
Wits & Weights podcast Ep 47: Upgrade Your Fitness, Health Relationships, and Communication with Carl Berryman
Inspired by Impact podcast EP037 PREP Health & Fitness - Multiple Orgasms, Shedding Fat, One-Step Stress Relief, and Bringing Your Business to Life
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Carl Berryman 00:00
I'm gonna be very careful to say that something has to be done all the time because I don't know everything about everything. What I'm saying for me is, if I don't track whatever it is, I'm not going to get the results that I want. That's what my experience has taught me if I am not tracking, I am working with my eyes closed. I don't know where I'm going.
Philip Pape 00:18
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. Today's a very special day because I have on the show someone I would consider a friend, a peer mentor a brother and one of the few men in my life who pushed me to be a better man, the one and only Carl Berryman of the inspired by impact podcast. I invited him on or he invited himself or we mutually agreed to have
Philip Pape 01:09
to talk about the health and fitness side of his personal journey to build muscle to get strong to fill out his sleeves. Not only to become a better man, but a bigger man in the literal sense. And we're gonna dig into some of the methods but also more importantly, the principles of what it takes to crush your body composition and fitness goals. And many other topics to be revealed soon. Up. So Carl and I met so we met when we did a podcast swap. This was probably gonna say six months ago or so. And you can find his first interview on episode 47 of Wits & Weights, or my interview on his show inspired by impact a podcast for men, Episode 37. That came out around January. So stop right now follow inspired by impact in your podcast app, and then keep listening. Back then I had no idea we would develop such a close relationship like we have. And we continue to bounce ideas off each other, we spiral what we're doing our impact our work. And I didn't know that would happen. But we really pushed each other. So check out 47 for my original intro of Carl, he doesn't really need an introduction for today. So today, I thought it would be fun to have a more organic conversation. Because Carl is the type of man who is an expert at peeling back the onion, the mental onion, the layers, he gets to the core. But beyond that, he goes into a completely different dimension of reality. And that's where he excels. And I hope we get to today. So Carl, my brother, this is gonna be a fun one for us in the listeners as we were talking before pushing go. So thanks for making another appearance on the show, man.
Carl Berryman 02:45
Hey, man, like I said, before we even hit record I was. I've been looking forward to this all week. And like, it's funny because I take for granted the fact that I've got so many amazing people that I've met through the podcast. And it's funny because I mentioned in one of my podcast episodes recently that if you want to really build amazing relationships with people start a podcast, because you get such amazing depth conversations. But like you I had no idea it was gonna go like this. Like I'm not I'm not shy to reveal some vulnerable stuff with men in my life. And I'm very fortunate where I have, I'm going to say like six or seven men where we can go really deep on stuff that people don't normally talk about, I had no idea you were going to be at the top of that list like you and I communicate with you more than just about any other man now going back and forth. Like just running these ideas off each other and constantly giving each other spots and helping each other get stronger. And man like my, my life in so many different ways has has been leveled up as a result of our relationships. And I'm honored to be here, man,
Philip Pape 03:50
it's mutual. And I think we get that energy from each other. And I wouldn't have called myself the type of guy who is super open about my emotions. It wasn't that I was reserved about it, but just you pushing me to do that I am a man of action. So when I have this guy, like you come in who says, you know, we need to be vulnerable, we need to talk about this stuff. This stuff's important. And I hadn't really heard that message all of a sudden, it's okay, let me take action. That's important. And I understand that it is let me go after it. And then your comment about podcasting for relationships. Oh, I mean, I can't stress that enough car. Like even if you're not in a business, if you don't have a business, just start it for a hobby. Yeah, all of a sudden, it's like it's like dating or meeting friends. It's very hard to do like in the real world, but with podcasts, you're kind of forced into that in a way Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you all of a sudden build this huge network. And they're like minded people like minded in terms of not necessarily agree on everything, but your, your passion for life and your passion for asking questions and having conversations. So you you've been like me, but you've also introduced me to people like Darlene Marshall, who I just recorded this week, who's making me think rethink just my Philosophy, you know my values. So yeah. Anyway, Carl, right now just to ground listeners you want to interrupt? Yeah, I do
Carl Berryman 05:08
you better get used to the swamp. Yeah, it's fine. I just I want to go back to something that you mentioned there, because you talked about how I kind of opened your eyes with regards to the vulnerability and the sharing and stuff like that. One thing I'm really starting to entertain more from, from an idea. And it's just, I do that too much. Like, I do it too much to the point where there needs to be more action. So I look at you a guy who's all about actions like, hey, I need to take more action, you're looking at me seeing a guy who's really vulnerable, saying I need to do this. While I'm not gonna say either of us is right or wrong, we need to try on what fits for us and make sure that we know where that destination is that we're going and seeing if we're actually getting there because I take a look at like, Yeah, I do a ton of journaling, I do a ton of meditation, everything like that. But at the end of the day, is it taking me closer to where I want to go? If the answer is no, then maybe I need a little bit more action. If the answer's no, when I'm doing a ton of action, maybe there is a little bit more introspection I need to do. So there's definitely no right or wrong. And I love that we are for lack of a better expression, kind of a yang yin and a yang, where like I'm feeding off of that energy that you put out from an action oriented standpoint, and then you can kind of feed off the peeling back the layers of the onion to get to the core things for me, so neither is better or worse than the other, we need to figure out what works for us. And then if action is that thing that works for you. And it needs to be like an 8020 split. Do that if introspection works for you. And it needs to be at in terms of introspection, so you can make sure you have a hyper laser focused 20% That gets you to where you want to go, then that works for you. But it's it's it's no different than what we're doing with our meal plans, what we're doing with our workouts, like really trying on what might fit for you give me time to see if it actually does and then running with it.
Philip Pape 06:53
Yeah, this, this reminds because we're gonna get into principles and methods called what works for you is, is not just lip service. It's not just a buzzword, right, because I just this morning, there was a q&a on one of the podcasts I listened to. And the question was, if I don't like tracking, why should I track? Because I know we're gonna get into that a little bit. And and he said, Well, you don't have to, he said, for some people, it reduces decision fatigue. And there's other reasons for it. And I was but beyond that, then he talked about how the things that worked for him as a host in the past solve problems. Give him the experience and lens and maybe bias to apply to other people what might work for them. And that might not work for that individual. Right. So this is the difference between principles and principles and methods. I think we wanted to get into maybe we could just dive into it right now.
Carl Berryman 07:40
Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Because that's that quote. I can't remember who said it. But the quote with regards to the man who focuses on principles. Oh my gosh, yeah.
Philip Pape 07:52
Oh my gosh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. We're on the same wavelength. So Carl doesn't know my notes here. Carlos know my notes, but I have it. Is it the one by is it? Yes. It's Miss attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson. Okay. It was actually said by Harrington Emerson. He was a yes theorist. Yeah, he was like a pioneer of scientific management, which for people listening, actually, that's kind of ties into my career as an engineer. Scientific Management is just how do we do things in a data driven way? You can take that to extremes when it comes to people when you talk capitalism, you know, labor versus capital. Anyway. He said, quote, as to methods, there may be a million and then some principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles is sure to
Carl Berryman 08:36
have trouble. Yeah, that one got us. I used to have that on my fridge. And it is. Yes, principles. Go ahead, kick this one off. No, no, I
Philip Pape 08:45
mean, so on this show, we talk a lot about nuts and bolts things. And actually, you're you've encouraged me to also keep exploring the behavior change and mindset part of this, which is extremely important. But just take energy balance, for example, right? The relationships between the calories you consume, and the calories you expend, and to gain weight, which is something you're trying to do right now to build muscle right. Trying to do in a surplus. You try to do it right, you're doing it right. Oh, man, we can get into the definition of try. Yoda. You know, taking action is trying, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so you have to eat more than you burn. And it sounds simple, right? But then we get into how do you do that? And how does your body respond? And what are the methods for that? So one method is to count calories, right? That's a method counting calories or tracking food or whatever. Others would be using a meal plan, using portion sizes, measuring your food, but not tracking it, estimating based on labels, estimating what you see, or just intuitively eating based on experience on hunger signals. Right, right. So my approach with clients, which you know, when Carl and I were first talk thing about coaching and things like that. He's like, I don't want to do this, and we're gonna get into it like my approach is use tracking because to me, it was a quick way to get awareness and precision for a lot of people who I deal with who've never had good understanding of their hunger signals or what they're consuming. So tell us about your view on that specifically,
Carl Berryman 10:20
and then we can branch off from there. My view on that specifically is that if it works for you, and it's taking you to where you want to go, and it's something you can sustain, like, stick with it, like why not? The other view that I would have on it to oppose myself because I'll I'll I'll play both sides of the fence here is that if you're not getting to where you want to go based on what you're doing, then you'd be insane not to try something else, regardless of how much you hate it like because just the fact that you hate it. If you then start getting results, as like, if you start get making the progress you want, as a result of doing the thing that used to hate, guess what, you're not gonna hate it anymore. Yes, you're gonna like it, you're gonna like it because all of a sudden, it starts to work. Now, for me, this is how I would phrase it, I haven't taken the time to develop a better relationship with tracking, like calorie tracking, because the stories that I play in my head with regards to doing that stuff, like I remember, like, there was a there was a few days there, I only did it for like three days, there's but like one of those days specifically, I remember I'd go in there. And since I'm eating the same thing, it was super easy to track, right. But then like I think about when I make my shakes, I think about when I make my pro U casserole like I'm trying to like to try to just do the math on that, like cooking is something that I use as a relaxation outlet. Like I it's downtime for me where I can just shut off not be thinking about my podcast not be thinking about spirituality and all this stuff. So for me to then take something that feels like work and put it into a space that I go specifically to not work. That's where the relationship kind of came to a head. So I'm like, Okay, well, if I'm not tracking via an app, or something like this, I at least need to be doing something. And it's, it's really interesting for me what I because like, I shot up weight pretty quickly, which was really, really surprising for me. And like I've had lots of people mentioned that they they noticed the difference is for my ego is that's nice to put my tires. But I noticed for me that I like you said I always want to unpeel the onion and get to the core. So it's like, okay, my I've hit a plateau. What does that mean? Does it mean I'm not eating enough calories? Probably. Okay, so then why am I not eating enough calories? Let's peel another layer. Okay, well, I'm not eating enough calories, because when I go to the fridge, I don't want to take time to prep stuff. Okay, so if I don't want to take time to prep stuff, what do I need to do? I need to have stuff prepped in events. So for right now, what I actually track is food prep, I don't track my calories, like I know the portion size I'm going for. But if I get food prep done three times a week or more, I don't have to worry about calorie intake, because the food is there. And not only there, but it needs to be delicious. So last night, I'm like, Man, I don't feel like eating. I'm not hungry. But I have to I'm going on the show tomorrow, I've got to be nice and bulk for fill up here. So I'm like, Okay, what's going to be quick? What's going to be easy? Tacos? Taco, so I'm like, okay, that's gonna be quick done, and I get my calories. And so really taking the time to figure out why I haven't been doing what I know I need to do has helped me figure out how to do things as simply as possible. So the principles, how do you make mistakes hard to make? That was the question I had to answer. How do you make mistakes hard to make?
Philip Pape 13:37
Yeah. So what you're telling me then is, through this process, you're gathering data of some kind, it's not seen data that I would have a new client do because there's a system I have. And that's that's kind of a reliable way to just dive into it right from the bat, because right tool for it. But you have, you also have a tool, and it's take the output, which in your cases, you didn't gain weight, which we can get into that, like that, and how you calculate that accurately, and so on. You took that output said, it's not where I need to be, I need to push it higher. You already have this reliable, or consistent way of eating. And now you know, there's a delta two that you need to make. Yeah, whether it's via prep, or the content or the quantity or what have you. And then you make it so it really does sound to me like you're you're tracking a different with a different tool effectively. Yeah, tracking something you're tracking?
Carl Berryman 14:27
is still it has it has to be done. It has been done. That's something that I would Yeah, that's right. It's the principle I'm never going to say actually. I'm going to be very careful to say that something has to be done all the time, because I don't know everything about everything. What I'm saying for me is, if I don't track whatever it is, I'm not going to get the results I want. That's what my experience has taught me if I am not tracking, I am working with my eyes closed. And I if I'm working with my eyes closed, I don't know where I'm going. And I'm not going to get there.
Philip Pape 14:58
Yeah, and you said to get the results you want So your result right now isn't wellness, it's gaining muscle. Like, let's be honest, I mean, you might have other microbes and problems you're trying to solve. Yes. Which
Carl Berryman 15:08
is, which is why I switched back to eating, like I got off of my plant based diet. Because I know right now the goal is to put on lean muscle, right. And in order to do that, like I was just getting so tired of beans and lentils and tofu, which I still eat, for sure, I still eat. But as soon as I started adding chicken and dairy and ground beef and ground turkey back in there, that's when I started to get excited about eating again. I'm like, Man, I missed this stuff. Alright, so
Philip Pape 15:39
you're just saying just from a psychological standpoint of and enjoyment standpoint, yes, you
Carl Berryman 15:43
are getting huge back to that. Yeah, huge factor that people completely downplays? How much are you going to enjoy the thing that you need to do to get you where you want to go? Because if you don't enjoy it, as soon as you can stop, you're gonna stop.
Philip Pape 15:55
Great. Yeah. And we talked about sustainability, which again, is another buzzword that gets thrown around, sometimes lightly. And what you're telling me is that even during the muscle building phase, which we know can last a long time, it can last six, nine or more months. Yeah, it's not a short term process. So you have to make it enjoyable, but also not make so many trade offs that you don't get your results. That's that's the thing. Yes. You know, you're not looking at maintenance, you're trying to push your weight. And what's happening is, I sent you those graphs by text yesterday of like, my personal last time I did a building phase. Right? My expenditure went up by about 600 calories over six months, which is not, which is actually pretty typical. Yeah, my size, and then, which is about 25 calories a week that I would have to increase my, my daily intake to keep up with that. Which 25 calories isn't a lot, but you know, it adds up over time. Right? Yeah,
Carl Berryman 16:44
it's like anything like when you're if you're going to do bench press, when you start from one end, and then you start making your gains and all of a sudden, you get to that point where it's really heavy. Now, you've got to start going up by like, five pounds instead of 20 pounds, or even two and a half pounds for some less instead of Yeah, so it gets tough. I trust me I know right now force feeding myself is I'm looking for ways not looking for ways around it. I'm getting very, very strategic about how to how and when to force feed myself. So.
Philip Pape 17:15
So do you is force feeding? Do you see it as force feeding or be?
Carl Berryman 17:22
Okay? Okay, so language language is really important. So I'm really glad you brought that up. I actually, I don't see it as force feeding, I see it as eating when I'm not hungry in order to in order to get to where I want to go. Yeah, so this is a part of the process. It's no different than meat. So today at bench, I was super pumped about it, I want to make sure this happened today. So for the longest time, I was stuck on 185. Right for bench I do it, I do it five. And when I was doing it by myself, I couldn't I didn't even try a sixth time. Even though I made sure I did them in the squat racks. I was just scared. Okay, a couple weeks ago, I get a buddy to come help me with 190, we get 190 times up five, next week could do 195. And we get that up five, the fifth one was really hard. So today, I tried something different where sets one, two, and three, I didn't go all out, or set sets one and two, because I do three sets, sets one and two, I didn't so got up to 205. And like four was I'm not gonna say easy. It was very manageable. 195, the second set that I did for four, super manageable, like super manageable because I changed my mindset around what heavy was. So with regards to force feeding, it's not gonna be force feeding. It's like, No, this is me just feeding my muscles and being the person in the man that I say I want to be. That's what this is. So I'm gonna choose to entertain that story as opposed to it being a painful story.
Philip Pape 18:38
Yeah, and I think that's important for people listening, because there are different types of coaches out there, right. There's some that focus on wellness and health. There's some that focus on longevity, others that focus on performance, and some of that focus on aesthetics, right. And these are all different goals. And what you're going after here is, ultimately it's going to be an aesthetics goal once you lean out, but you're really aiming for performance right now. Like you just said, trying to get push your lifts and eat to fuel and perform. It's okay to do that. Like the fact that you don't feel hungry is your body telling you you this is a slightly unnatural state, you know, and physiological Yeah, pushing yourself away from homeostasis, same thing on the other end. We have hunger. I get questions all the time, like how do I avoid hunger during fat loss? The answer is you can't you don't you can't avoid it. And you don't want to be playing tricks. But you can make it manageable. You can learn about hunger, you can learn what hunger means and separate physical from physiological hunger and so on. So yeah, yeah, man. So let's see. Tell us so tell the listener what you're actually trying to do and where you came from before? Because I understand that you maybe in the past struggled with gaining weight or the thought of gaining weight or you did you kind of quit too early in the process. Tell us about that.
Carl Berryman 19:53
I struggled with the commitment to put on weight. That's just all there is to it. I gave up way too soon. So ever since I'm 43 Now ever since I was man. Oh no 10 I've wanted to be one of those bigger guys because like, my older brother would have the muscle and fitness magazines, he'd have the benches at home with like, the brown plates with the sand and, and whatever. Yeah, I always wanted to be like, I want to be big and jacked. And then I guess around probably I'm gonna say 35. So not all that long ago, relatively speaking, I kind of gave up on that. And I'm like, You know what, work with it, you got current, like you're leaning guy, you're super agile, you're fast. Like, let's just let's dive into that and do the best you can with that. So back in 2021, early 21, I made a really radical transformation, I didn't lose very much overall weight at all. And my body fat percentage only went down by 3%, from 15 to 12. And I went from like 151 to 148. And I looked jacked like I looked, I looked great. And then fast forward a couple years, and my regular weight is around like 139 to 141. And I remember Jenny Lee had talked about pictures that I when we first started dating, like 10 years ago that I would send to her and I looked bulkier, like I looked, I looked good. But I was there was a lot more masks on me. I'm like, Man, I want to get back to that. But every single time I would go on a bulk. And I couldn't see my six pack. I was like, forget it. Yeah, forget it. Like I'm I'm not doing this because I want to see my six pack. completely forgetting one of the main principles I preach all the time, which is half of getting what you want is knowing what you have to give up to get it. And for me, I'm like right now, sure if I flex hard enough, in my six pack, but I'm not. I'm just not about that right now. Because the reason why I want to put the reason why I wanted to put on muscle mass before it was for aesthetics. The reason why I want to do it now is because I'm realizing and I've learned this from you, Phillip, just how proportionate longevity and performance in later years is with the amount of muscle you have body and the quality of that muscle. So it's like, Hey, this is only going to keep getting harder for me to put on muscle. So if there's any time regardless what age you are, the time is now so I need to put this muscle on. Now I need to get up and get his heavy from a muscle standpoint as I possibly can right now and just stay 100% dedicated to that. Because yeah, I'm a lean guy. I imagine, it's probably not going to be that difficult for me to shed some stuff if I want to. But more importantly, like I want to be that personal trainer in my 70s who is school in the punks, like in every category like like walking up to the bar and doing three plates for for for a warm up, I want to be the guy who's doing box jumps that still up to my shoulders, like I want to be that guy. And that's never going to happen. If I'm not willing to make this very short term sacrifice, like think 12 months may sound to a lot of sound long to a lot of people. But if I've been trying to do this, really since I was 16, if I'm being honest, we're going almost three years there. So So 12 months compared to 30 years. That's pretty
Philip Pape 23:09
short. Yeah. And yeah, in there are several principles in there that the listener should understand that we do cover it on the podcast a lot, but in case they haven't heard about it, and one one is the longevity and health that comes from having lean mass, it really is the crux of so much of if you think of the opposite of what happens, what happens with most people, you get older, you get more frail, you lose significant body mass, I mean, Carl has been been working out for years. So you've kind of maintained or at least done a little bit of body composition over the years. You know, I could tell from your physique, right? Whereas most people just haven't even done that, right? They've been living a sedentary life, myself included until when I was almost 40. And at 40 at 50 at 60. I've seen people time and again, start to strength train, and everything just starts to get better. All right, I hear this all the time from clients, where we start with like a weight in their mind, they need to lose weight, right? They need to lose weight. And I'm like, Okay, well hold on. We're not going to do that just yet. Right? We got to figure some things out first and, and have some fun with these new tools and processes and habits. Let's have fun with them. We always gamify things try to have things that we track and whatnot. And I tell you almost to person, what's my PR becomes like the driving question.
Carl Berryman 24:30
Absolutely. Good feeling
Philip Pape 24:32
it is and then then what'll happen is maybe after two three months, we've done all this and gotten super strong and we do a fat loss phase just to we gotta learn that right. And they're like, Wow, this is way easier than I thought wow, why is my body responding this way? Wow. Wow. And it's like you're lifting heavy like it really comes down to that. Stuff is is important like sleep and stress and stuff but the big change you never did before was telling your body muscles important.
Carl Berryman 24:59
Yeah. No. And you think that you think that's so? Not solely but you think one of the main driving factors of that is lifting heavy? Yeah. Okay, lifting heavy. It is a few reasons physiologically Well, it's lifting heavy and progressing, you know, progressive overload.
Philip Pape 25:19
So I want to be clear because you you can lift in a higher rep range and still have progressive overload and still develop muscle mass for sure. But, and you've probably learned this yourself, like with deadlifts and things like that building, that base of strength makes working in all the rep ranges easier. Ways. Yeah. And the heavy lift and we're talking, you're at 80 85% of your max, not maxing out necessarily. We recruits bigger muscle fibers that normally would stay somewhat dormant, they just would not get recruited. So that's super important. Especially if Hey, women, you want to bigger glutes, guys, you want you know, bigger back, like all that stuff, you got to dig deep, and lift super heavy to get those now once you've built that base, then you can start having fun, right? You can do the body building the power building the the endurance stuff, throw all that in there, because you've built the base that you can very easily maintain compared to what it took to build it.
Carl Berryman 26:10
Yeah. One thing I want to add to that, too, is I was thinking about this today, like, it's amazing, the mindset shift from when I did 185 on the bench today to say even three weeks ago, like 185 would have made me nervous three weeks ago. But now since I did 195, the previous week, I'm like, there's no reason I can't do 185. And today, like 185 for four, if I were to go all out there and I had a spot, there might have been eight reps there. Like it was it was not hard. And so where I'm going with that is now I've conditioned my mind to redefine what is hard for me. So after I'm done this strength phase in this building phase, however long this is going to be imagine what's going to happen when I go down. And I'm doing higher reps, but I'm doing them with a heavier weight now because it's like no, I've, I've done I've done to 25 for bench now. And I'm using that for sets of four. Now all of a sudden when I'm going to do my eight to 12. I'm using my 185 Yes. Because just the mental idea that now this is this is like compared to what I normally do.
Philip Pape 27:15
Yeah. Yeah. And, and it translates into all the accessory movements. Like if you go after all these deadlifts like months of progress, then do some rows. Just watch how much heavier Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what now let's turn that around and understand that at some point, you may. So you have a weight plateau right now that you're pushing through? Yep, you may at some point have a lifting plateau. Just because the more advanced you get, the stronger you get, the farther in between the PRS come. And you're a little bit more sensitive to recovery to stress and sleep. So if you have just one day where you get six hours of sleep, or one day where you do you lift earlier than later, these little variables can make a difference. And all of a sudden, you may or may not be able to hit the reps yet. How are you going to handle those situations?
Carl Berryman 28:02
Oh, it's it's the same way that I that I handle, handle anywhere else, it's knowing in advance that it's going to happen? Yeah, knowing in advance that it's going to happen, and making sure that I have tools in place that are going to enable me to emotionally manage that. Yeah, like say, for example, squats right now. I can squat about as much as I bench because the thing is, with squats, I'm always super concerned about my back, which means I'm just I'm going into it with the wrong mindset. So I'm trying out different different variations of the squat as well, like the back squat, for sure. But in terms of like, when those plateaus come just knowing in advance, okay, this is this is exactly what I need. Because what this is telling me is that what I did to get where I am is no longer working. So I need to grow in some way, shape or form in order to get to that next level of me. So that's like, I'm really starting one of the questions that I've really gotten the habit of asking, that's kind of annoying, actually, is when like shit hits the fan and things start going wrong. It's like, what am I supposed to learn here? Like, what am I what am I missing? What do I need to do differently? And I start really diving down and I say annoying, because there's a part of me that wants to play the victim. But it's just the had I give myself a little bit a little bit of time for that sometimes, but not really. It's like no, Kay, you're stuck and you're stuck for a reason. What are you missing? How can you expand your like this? Is i I hate saying cliche stuff like the whole thing like look at as it as an off failure as an opportunity. Yeah, and everything like that. But the reason like cliches are cliches for a reason. Right? So there's some truth. Sure. Yeah, there definitely is. So yeah, just knowing the plant says okay, I'm stuck. Not only what can I do, but who can ask for help. Which is what you and I do all the time, right? Yeah, it's like who can ask for help? Who who can give me a spot on this? Who is Who knows more than I do, which I've done a lot of people know a hell of a lot more than me. What can I ask them in order to help me get through this? So you can lean on right now? Who do I need a spot from? Like, mentally, emotionally, physically, in any way, shape or form?
Philip Pape 30:15
Don't you find that, and I totally agree both wins and struggles reaching out to people. And I want to make I want to bring up both because, like, this morning, you know, a guy said, yes, he's gonna be my podcast, I was super excited. Like, I want to tell everybody, you know, like, I want to get that validation and support from people who know that I'm trying to do this, and that this is a successful outcome of what I did. But similarly with the struggles, if, like you just said, reaching out to your support structure, sometimes information online, Google, whatever, that's that you can look that up to try to help there's nothing like another human being that you connect to? Who could just raise that up to the next level, right? You think that?
Carl Berryman 30:53
Oh, that 100%? Like there's a time and place for both? The latter in terms of reaching out to somebody because what I'm going to find is I actually, you know, Bobby T, I had a really good conversation with him yesterday. And he pointed out something to me with regards to my language, that if I'm struggling with something, and I go and google it, I might not be asking the right question. Because I'm stuck in some type of tunnel vision that this is the problem I need to solve. Whereas having a conversation with somebody like you or somebody like Bobby t, what they're gonna say is Carl, do you realize what the real problem is here? Like, it's got nothing to do with what you think it is? Like? Did you hear what you just said? So you've got that outside observer, which Google will never like friends will always be able to give you answers. He can't go. Yeah. So that's why it's so important to have those people in your life that that a are willing to step up and say que this is what's really going on. Like you're you're looking, what you're seeing right now is not what's actually going on. So I'm going to first I'm gonna give you the truth here, it's going to hurt. But you know, they're doing it with love and compassion in order to help you. So yeah, friends over Google 10 times out of 10 Any day
Philip Pape 32:09
until the until AI gets to that level. Just kidding. I don't want to get in there. I want to I want to rephrase what I just heard you say, right, because I think of it also as challenging the premise of the question, mean, you're asking a question. I'm struggling with this. How can I fix why x y? And it's like, well, you're asking, you're asking the wrong question, right? You have the channel, your struggle, isn't this, it's this and I can just give a very practical example that comes to mind and somebody asked me the other day, how do I, how do I do these, like exercises for some muscle group? And, and I said, Well, why are you asking? Well, because my, my, I can't squat? And I'm like, Okay, well, that it's the wrong question.
Carl Berryman 32:54
What's wrong with my squat?
Philip Pape 32:56
Anyway, that's a very, very high level example. But it's a good one. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. Alright, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, so then. So speaking of your support system, then if you think of just this, this muscle building phase, because I've seen a lot of change in you, mentally? I mean, obviously, physically, I haven't been monitoring your physical numbers.
Carl Berryman 33:33
Oh, you have the selfies? No, no, I
Philip Pape 33:36
have it. You're not like submitting check ins or anything. But mentally How have your brothers in the support system contributed or detracted from I know, they're not detracting I hope but how are they contributing to this process since you started,
Carl Berryman 33:50
I'm mainly like the the guys that have here in Winnipeg, it was just, it was just really nice to they're not shy to give a compliment. So we all went out. And we went to this place called activate where you do kind of like these skill games, but they're also physical games, right? So there can be climbing. There could be basketball, there could be lasers like your Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. And when we got back, I was making burgers for everybody. So I'm in the kitchen. And they're like, Carl, your arms look jacked. And then I was like, Oh, cool. Like Jenny Lee tells me that all the time. But that's, that's a biased opinion. Right? And so they tell me that stuff and it's like, yeah, okay, it's like it. I see myself every day. So I don't really know the difference. So that's how they support me there. But then also just something as simple as like Bobby T, for example, asked me how it's going. And this is the one of the things that I really, I found, I need to shy away from with regards to online communities. Because I know online communities are all about like one of the main reasons people go there is for accountability. And yet people don't hold each other accountable for In my experience, some do some don't. And the way you hold people accountable is simply by following up with them. And so I've got brothers in my life who are following up with me with this stuff. And just note, like you, I know, we're going to be talking about this not just today, but all the time. So it's like, if ever, I feel like not doing the food prep of thought, and that actually, I'm really hoping we can get into that muscle up I did the other day, because this is a perfect transition into it of how you inspired some change. So inside, like, whenever I'm having my do it almost seven days a week, but I do my journaling experience, right every morning. And so the whole point of it is to, if I'm having a problem, I want to find a solution, and I want to be able to take action on it like today. So problem I wrote down was I plateau with my weights, which means there's something I need to test track and manage to get back on track, what is the smallest and simplest adjustments I can make that will have the biggest impact. So for each area of the prep work, for me, this, in this case, be in physical health and fitness, right? I have usually like I've got a lot of sources I go to for inspiration, but I'll have one book for each that just is like the Bible for that area. Atomic habits is for physical health and fitness. So the quote I got from there was many people begin the process of changing their habits by focusing on what they want to achieve. This leads us to outcome based habits. The alternative is to build identity based habits. With this approach, we focus on who we wish to become. So really long story short, with this one, I decided who I want to become is a success story for Philip. Because I don't want to let you down. I don't want I don't I don't want to let you down. I want I want to come on your podcast a year from now. And be able to say this is how Philips health this is how field helped me. I followed his advice in so many different ways like not just with the nutritional advice, not just with like what weights do and exercise and stuff like that not but just so much more like just mental and emotional support and love and compassion, everything like that. I want to be the type of person that follows through for my brothers to help my brothers out. So this has to be more this has to be about more than just me I don't I don't want to let you down. As soon as I make it about somebody else. For whatever reason. We have a tendency to to stick to the things that we want to do a lot more. So I don't want to let you down so I did something the other day that I haven't. I've been trying to get myself to do for months. I don't know why it's so stupid. It was just making shakes. Like prepping shakes having those prep because I know when I'm not hungry, they're super calorie dense. And I can get them in and it's it's good. If I if I like all of a sudden something comes up and I don't have time for anything. I can bring it with me. Yeah. So I said okay, as soon as I'm done this, my one small physical and simple action was go to the grocery store, get what you need come home and prep before I do anything else. And I did it. So now I got four more shakes sitting in the fridge. So long story long story long ago. I don't want to let you down.
Philip Pape 37:56
No. And that's that I'm thinking about that as well now that you brought it up, and I knew we'd learned things on the show and I hope people listen to this take that. It's I think you took the identity based habit and then you enhanced it with his Astros of let's let's make it about somebody else that we care about in our life and and just make it so deep. And so driving, that any deviation from that means we're letting that person down in addition to ourselves, which is really powerful.
Carl Berryman 38:20
Yeah, it's like, rather than just be so the I am statements isn't just the identity thing isn't just about who I want to be. It's who I want to be for this person, or for this community. Like I, the way that I look at it, I have to be the guy that is leading the way for all the brothers, I have to I the the only way I can do that is by just living by example. Right? So if I just don't make the shakes, or I stay where I am. That's not That's not me. Cool.
Philip Pape 38:50
So now let's let's let's get into the day to day here, right kind of process to achieve that. Because you mentioned the shakes. And we talked about tracking and things like that. How do you measure everything going on. So besides besides scale weight, which we talked about on the show, and just to recap, at least my philosophy is your daily weight on the scale can fluctuate tremendously based on fluid and based on inflammation and other factors for women based on their cycle, bloating, how many carbs you had, et cetera, et cetera. There's like 20 different factors. So it can go up and down. And guys that are kind of in our weight range. It can go up and down. Three, four, even five pounds in a day, depending on what's going on our weight range. You're giving me a lot of credit. Well, yeah.
Carl Berryman 39:30
How much are you? How much are you right now?
Philip Pape 39:32
I'm still down at like 170 something low.
Carl Berryman 39:35
Okay, so you've got 20 something pounds on?
Philip Pape 39:37
Yeah, it's in the ballpark. We're in the same alright, I'm flattered. The thing about human beings is like there's a normal curve, right, like most people fall in the similar weight range, similar height range and so on. So you end up getting used to these numbers and kind of making the connections. So where was I going with this Karl Popper tucked away day to day? Yeah. So so like one measure is your weight? then you have to be careful to, to use the right aspect about like, so for me, it's a 20 day moving average and that and I use a food logging app to see that, but you can just calculate that. What else are you measuring? Because I was thinking, if you felt like you were interrupted Sunday, and you didn't have the shakes, or you did have the shakes, but you didn't feel hungry? or what have you? How do you know at the end of the day, you got what you needed to get.
Carl Berryman 40:25
So for me, the main thing that I'm measuring right now, from a physical, I guess, a weight standpoint is I use the Renfrow scale, right? So it's got it gives you everything, some of the things on there aren't very accurate. I know that the body weights and the lean muscle are accurate. So that's what I'm doing. And since, man, it's been, it's been a couple of months now, where before, I was only doing it once a week, right. And then you suggested doing it every day. And I'm like, I don't want to do this every day. But I'll do it. Because I don't know everything about everything. So I started doing it every day. And it was it got really interesting, because what I would notice is the graph, if I were to pull it out, it goes really slow like this, and then bump and down. And then a little bit higher, boom, and down. So there's always a dip before and up. But I've noticed like it's very, very, very incremental. But like this, like this straight line right here, actually isn't a straight line. It's, it's like this, right? So say, for example, this this past weekend, when I was just, um, man, my emotions control the way I eat a hardcore. So and for me, I don't I don't binge. When I feel like crap emotionally. I do the opposite. I don't eat. I don't eat. Okay. So but since I've been getting on scale every day,
Philip Pape 41:49
which is a problem now, and he's trying to get away. So it's just yeah, yeah. All right, yeah.
Carl Berryman 41:54
So, but since I was weighing myself every day, when I hopped on the scale, after not eating, I actually had my highest weight. And so and so there's just, there was no rhyme or reason to that, which is why it's so important to have that data. Because when you can go the data because I don't want to, I don't want to base how like the results I'm getting on how I feel. Because just like when I used to take the glamor shots, like I take one every week, there'll be weeks where it's like, oh, I had a bad work week, I wasn't eating that good. These are gonna look horrible. I compare it to the last week, it's either the same or better. So you need that data there. So for me the primary one right now yeah, I'm looking at that every day so that I can make sure I'm managing that. But then the the bigger one is inside the gym. Like I want my lifts to be going up every single workout in some way, shape or form. Like if I'm doing the same number of reps was Rep Number Five cleaner than last week? Am I going up in weight? Am I getting to six reps instead of five today? So just those are what's most important, but also, like third on the list, there is the aesthetic part of it, right? Like I'm just how are my clothes fitting, I've got the one shirt that I the arms are definitely tighter. And that's that was that was my goal going in. So now I'm gonna have to buy a bigger shirt, because I thought it would take me way longer to fit into this shirt. But it's it's, it's tight now. So that that is also important.
Philip Pape 43:18
Okay, so if backing off a bit, so you're going by your lifts. But what if it you said you were in a weight stall for about a month now? Yeah. Okay, so what's going on there?
Carl Berryman 43:30
What's going on there is I haven't been accurately so I've got my food prep down. Okay, so that's good to go. And that worked for me to get me to where I am now. And now I'm at that point where I need to try something different. So starting next week, I'm going to be tracking something different. So the thing I'm going to start tracking is my shakes plus three, how many and by shakes plus three, I mean, three meals, if I get in my shakes, and three meals, I'm making a hypothesis that that is going to help me break through the plateau. Because that's going to be that will up my calories. So but I want to have data on that. So and for me when I say my meals, my meals are I know even without tracking them that they are the same because I've done my food prep and I'm only eating out once a week the only option I have is to eat what I prepped so those meals are done in advance so it's not like oh no I am eating three more meals but I went out here and I went out here and there's there's no variation in what I eat. I eat the same three things every single day. Every single day.
Philip Pape 44:34
Yeah, and that's important the routine is important so for folks listening and here's the thing having that routine for some people will drive them crazy. Right For me it's
Carl Berryman 44:43
super easy. Don't get me wrong though. Like it's not every single day for months like the whole it shifts I enjoy Yeah, like so the menu will shift so yeah, like spaghetti is on the menu. Pierogi casseroles on the menu this week and tacos are on the menu and then I've got my breakfast burrito and So anyway,
Philip Pape 45:01
so I'm so hesitant to like want to challenge you, Carl here.
Carl Berryman 45:05
That's the point of this conversation and this ship is the host.
Philip Pape 45:09
Yeah. And it's the going back to the tracking thing. I'm like, I hear Oh, hold
Carl Berryman 45:14
on, before you before you. Why are you challenging me? What is your intent?
Philip Pape 45:18
Okay? My intent is to have you think of all the different perspectives of why or why not you're using but why and specific tools so that you get more precision and progress. Okay,
Carl Berryman 45:29
so you were looking out for me by challenging? Oh, there
Philip Pape 45:31
you go. All right.
Carl Berryman 45:33
Where are you going with this, so I should be inviting this. And that's, that's one of the things I was really looking forward to here. I know I'm in a plateau. I know Philip is going to challenge something I have. In other words, he's going to cause me to step outside my box, which is only going to lead me to where I want to go. So challenge me only one.
Philip Pape 45:48
So just going back to the tracking thing, because I hear I hear I don't want to call them rationalizations I want to call them they could be their techniques, or you're trying to come up with and be clever and think and, and solutions to the problem of why is the weight stalled, knowing that you need more calories, like just break it down very simply any more calories without actually measuring the calories. Right, right. You're indirectly as we proxy measures, measuring the calories. And if you are eating like a robot and literally the exact same thing every day for months on end, like bodybuilders do. I could see that that almost having a meal plan, which is its own box for some people, right having a meal plan, that I could see you making the progress, but then I hear that what you're doing right now isn't working right. So then I go back to track and I'm like, what is the real problem, you have a tracking, one of the problems you said was you don't like the stacking that on top of something that's relaxing, which is prepping your food or cooking? And then and then I might ask, Well, is there a different way you can track that doesn't do that, like tracking it afterward, like tracking it an hour later as part of your journaling or documentation or looking at your other numbers? or what have you, you know, it could be taking a picture in the moment of what you eat. And then later on tracking it does separate from that activity. Just just one little thing that came to mind. Is that the only problem? Or are there other things about tracking that are just not going to work for you
Carl Berryman 47:10
know that? I don't know if that's the only problem. But that already starts to make sense. Like what if I just if the problem is for me doing it while I'm doing something that I'm supposed to enjoy? Why don't I have a specific time for doing these things? Then like why don't I do it another time. So my cooking is done. But then it's like, hey, maybe when I've got some downtime, I go back, I grab all the boxes, I grab the labels, and I figure it out. So like that makes sense to me. So that's something that I'd be willing to try. Now, to answer your question, is there anything else that is stopping me from doing it?
Philip Pape 47:50
Like if you did that, if you hypothetically put yourself in that position of okay, I'm gonna do it later. And maybe there's an easy way to do that, without even having to grab all the boxes, it could be like what I do when I go to a restaurant, I just put in the basic common foods into the app and ballpark it. And that's actually that actually results in a more accurate number than not doing it is what the science shows and what kind of experience tends to show even if you're within 30% plus or minus, it tends to average out and at least gives you a box where you can up it each week knowing that you have that target. So
Carl Berryman 48:24
there's a story playing in my head, that I'd be willing to investigate and see if it's not accurate. I just, there's something about me that is very resistant to making, eating. It's it almost doesn't even make sense trying to try to say it out loud. I'm not quite sure. See, I'm trying to I'm not making eating a cold, like, data driven thing. Yeah, like I can do it like I can because it's a human experience. Yeah, I can do it inside the gym, so I'm not sure. The question I'm gonna have to ask myself is how do I still keep this as much of an enjoyable human experience while still getting accurate on the data? Like that's the question that's a question I need to ask myself.
Philip Pape 49:08
It's a fair question when you when you look at the end analogy so you mentioned the gym being on you're kind of your advocate here at the gym, going to a gym and lifting weights is not really a natural human experience. We've we've created these boxes with these, you know bars and plates and like in real life, quote unquote real life our ancestors would have just lived their lives and picked up you know, heavy stuff and and they wouldn't have gotten as jacked as we're trying to get let's be honest, it'd be somewhere course.
Carl Berryman 49:34
Yeah, there's so
Philip Pape 49:37
you look at, you know, hunter gatherer tribes or what have you. And then another energy analogy I often use is banking. And you can argue that it also is an artificial construct of like having money and having budgets and stuff, and it's, so we need to treat it that way. So I get all that I get all that. But I also go back to you wanting to build muscle efficiently, effectively, to get to this goal. What's the best way we can do that and what are the best tools for it and you will said doing something you don't like you could eventually, either like it or at least not notice it if it's part of your routine,
Carl Berryman 50:05
right, but Okay, so you're going back to what we said earlier in conversation. And the other thing I'm going to challenge myself on, is what if I started doing it and all of a sudden, I got to my goal way faster than I expected. Like, what if instead of me saying, You know what, I don't like doing this, because of this? What if I said, you know, what, what if this actually gets me to where I want to go faster, like that might be able to change because really, it's my emotional connection to the activity that I need to address. It's not the activity itself. It's my emotional connection. And the stories I'm telling myself about that. Because there is a way to make it fun. Like, I love doing burpees. How, like, that's insane. That is insane. Why does? Yeah, why do I love doing burpees? Because I have different stories and emotional connections associated with them. So maybe now it's me looking at my stories and my emotional connection I have to tracking diligently that I need to address and who knows, it might end up being one of those things where I do it. I'm like, I hate to say this, but I should have listened to Philip.
Philip Pape 51:05
You never know, man. But but you'll have information you'll know, you'll know. Truly just despise this with all your passion. And it's just not something for you. And you know, there's there's things like that in our lives. How can you say, Yes, you know, I still don't like Squatch I'll be honest, I'll say it out loud. I love deadlifts with back squats. And maybe it's not that I don't like them. I just look forward to them with a little bit of dread every time. Why? First several reasons. It's one is the back issues I used to have. And I know you mentioned something similar, which gets me to be very focused on my form and do things the right way. But the other thing is, it's I'm not as strong in the back squat as I would like to be. So that's one of the things I know I have to do it to push it. And that's what drives me to do it. And I do that. Yeah. So I'm fine with that though. I'm fine. Because I know, in the moment, I'm like, why am I doing this? Why am I doing? But you know, I focus and I do it, and I push? And then when I'm done. I'm like, Ah, so glad I did. But
Carl Berryman 52:01
this brings up another interesting argument, though, or discussion, I should say in terms of, at what point do we stop trying to fix our weakest weaknesses and just accept our strengths and run with that? So that's I don't know. Yeah, that's a whole note. We don't leave that for the audience to answer. Yeah, they can they can give you some feedback on that one. Give us some answers.
Philip Pape 52:20
Yeah, man. All right. So what else? What is anything really surprised you about yourself? During this process?
Carl Berryman 52:28
Yeah. The deadlifts for sure. I didn't, like just, I was looking to get back up to so the most I've ever done in my life. And this was just a challenge for one rep was three plates, right? So 315. And that was like the first time I tried it. I didn't get it up. And then this guy who was much taller than me, and much thinner than me, got it up. I'm like, Yeah, this isn't acceptable. So I stepped back up to the bar, and I got it up. But I know that was a one time thing. But what actually, this is what surprised me the most so far throughout this experience as it relates to this is both inside the gym and outside the gym. And I'm really glad that I had the experience that I did. I had an inside the gym and then outside the gym experience on the same day. So I'm going to do dad's, and at that point, I think the max I was doing for six reps was, oh, no, I did 235 for five one week. Okay. So then the next week, I'm like, Okay, well, we're gonna go for 240 For sure, if not 245 On the third set. So second set on my cane, put on what you did last week, and let's get it for six before you go up in weight. Let's Max up our reps before we max out the weight. And so I go up to the bar, and I'm like, I'm getting myself all psyched up and everything like that. And I go and I lift it. I'm struggling. I get it like halfway up my shins and then just put it back down on the first rep. Yeah, yeah, kind of first step. So and then I sit down afterwards. I'm like, Carl, you did this five times last week, you're telling me you can't do it once now. So then a strategy that's always always worked for me, in every single one of my workouts is just have a nice relaxing workout. That's it, I just remove expectation, I have fun, I go up to the bar, make sure my form is good. So I waited about two minutes, I went and I pulled out six reps. And then I put 240 on the bar and I did six reps. And so it was just it reminded me to just relax, not put so much pressure on myself. And it's funny because later that day, I was about to have like one of my emotional breakdowns and what that looks like for me as I get anxious, I get nervous and then I cancel things and I just shut down I'll either watch Netflix or I just totally seclude myself. And it was a date night with Jenny Lee the last day that I want to be doing that. I said, Carl, you know what, just have a nice, relaxing evening which anyway, just focus on relaxing. That's it. You'll do what you need to do, and it ended up being an unbelievable date night. All because I just I remove expectation. I let the unconscious takeover Like, pardon me, I've been training diligently for over 20 years, I let it take over and trust that it's going to do what I need it to do. And that's exactly what the body did in that situation in the gym. And that's exactly what my mind did when I left the gym. So that was fun.
Philip Pape 55:14
That's like the this is the the epitome of mind muscle connection, because it's, it's your psychological state. It's not even in the moment. You know, what comes to mind, there's I lived in, I lived in my home gym by myself. And I know a lot of people like to get psyched up when they go for a lift, or they listen to the loud, you know, heavy rock music, or they get the camaraderie of the competition. And I don't like all that stuff. I like when I when I go for my set, I turn off everything. And I just listen to myself, my body and tell them give myself cues. And that is kind of a form of relaxing, I think, if people listening are wondering if they've been struggling with their lives, and maybe it is putting too much pressure on themselves. What Carl just said could be game changing for you.
Carl Berryman 55:55
It's a form of relaxation, but it's also a form of strength in that like, because for me what I do now whenever I'm working out, I always listen to a podcast episode that I'm going to be posting because I listen to the nuggets. But as soon as I get ready to my set, pause. Yeah, put it on pause all the time. And it reminds me of something that Goggins said, he said, if you're listening to music while you're working out, you're cheating. Yeah, yeah. Because you need like, when I say at strength, it's because fewer places where you will you be introduced to the demons that are really inside you than in the gym. Yeah, like if you shut everything else off, and listen to the voices that are coming up, when you're getting ready to do a weight that you didn't think you can lift, man, you're gonna be surprised at some of the shit that those voices talk in your head just and then being able to defeat those demons like today when I did the 205. Like, I told my buddy was give me a spot him like, Hey, I'm going for two. We'll see if we get we'll see if we get four. And then as I'm sitting on the bench, and I go to lie down, I'm getting myself position. It's like, you've never done this before Carl, or I haven't done it for like 10 years anyways. Yeah. And it's like, you know what? We are. We're gonna crush this and then sure enough to was easy. And we got to four. So it was nice after the fact being able to say like, yeah, those voices in my head. I'm gonna turn the volume down on those guys. Yeah,
Philip Pape 57:19
man, enjoy it, enjoy it, because you've got months ahead of you.
Carl Berryman 57:22
I know. I know. Two plants on the bench is coming right around the corner. For sure.
Philip Pape 57:28
Yeah. So what I mean, how do you know when you're done? How do you know when you're done? And then like, you've captured the flag on your muscle building process? And then you have to switch focus? Potentially,
Carl Berryman 57:40
I think you know my answer. Oh, switch focus. Okay. Because you're never done? Well, I mean, not gonna say never done this. For me. Um, I have a number in my head, like, I would like to, I've always wanted to be 165. I've never been 165 in my entire life. So for me, it's about getting to that number. Irregardless of performance, even muscle aesthetics, anything. It's all about proving that I can do something that I never thought was possible. Yeah, that's it. So like, that is the number one goal for me. And just proving I could do somebody didn't think was possible. But in terms of switching gears,
Philip Pape 58:22
well, when you when you get there, are you going to stay there for a while?
Carl Berryman 58:26
That's a good question. Yeah. That's a good question. Um, I'm going to see how much Jenny Lee can not keep her hands off. Now. If, if my if the amount of physical attention I get from Jenny Lee goes up with my weight, then who knows? Maybe 175. But if it starts going down, I know I need to cut so
Philip Pape 58:45
there'll be more to grab. Yeah. So and I asked also for a practical reason, because when you hit that weight, if you just stop and go back to maintenance, you may drop because of the Oh, yeah. ARBs. So overshoot it by like, a couple pounds or three pounds.
Carl Berryman 59:01
So 165 is my overshoot right now. Okay, because because I know I hear well, I know when I cut, like, even if I were to drop down to 155, that's 15 more pounds on me than I was walking around with for years. So okay, in pounds on a frame this big, is, that's gonna be healthy. That's gonna be pretty healthy to
Philip Pape 59:22
165 is just that that one day, you get it on the scale, boom, you hit that number,
Carl Berryman 59:25
right? As soon as I can already tell because as soon as you said, I'm like, No, I can. I would love to see a one seven, a one seven, something would be all that would be solid.
Philip Pape 59:36
Well, that's the cool thing about this is like you have a lot of runway honestly, you do because you started pretty darn lean. So you have that runway to keep pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing. And I mean, I would say go until you just feel like that's it you know, it's okay to go to a hotel. I
Carl Berryman 59:50
started hating the process. 18 months. Yeah, it's like a long way. Yeah, if it gets to the point where it's like just every single time I eat I'm like, Just too falling out of my mouth that forget. So
Philip Pape 1:00:03
I know if and when that starts to happen because sometimes it doesn't happen. It depends on how many calories you have, like if you're leaner and you're not up in the four something range. What do you think you're eating right now?
Carl Berryman 1:00:14
Calorie wise, calorie wise? I can't even give you a number. Yeah, okay. Okay.
Philip Pape 1:00:19
So if you start tracking, I'd be curious. It's not
Carl Berryman 1:00:22
if it's like, that is what I'm taking away. Okay. Is many things I'm taking away from this conversation I, I will begin tracking and I will begin taking a look at my emotional relationship to tracking Awesome, so yeah, give it give it a month, like commit to a month. If you can't, don't give me what I tell you tell you what a strategy, or a principle that works for me and kind of principles slash strategy is a lot of times not thinking too far down the road. Like, say when I'm doing my 500 burpees? I can't think about the 500. I've got to think about those first 25 Got it. That's so for me, like I'll do 30 But I'm just going to focus on the five. Okay, focus on five
Philip Pape 1:01:00
start today. But tomorrow, whenever you're starting. Okay, it's partway through the day. So
Carl Berryman 1:01:05
no, no, but no, it doesn't though. Because remember, what we said is I just need to track stuff like you need to track it after the fact true if you have the information from what you ate earlier apps, right, which, which I do, because all I've had was a banana and a protein shake. So let's see. Okay, we'll start today.
Philip Pape 1:01:21
All right. So Carl, man, you know what I'm gonna ask next. I want to ask it of you again.
Carl Berryman 1:01:25
Oh, man, I can't believe I wasn't ready for this. What question
Philip Pape 1:01:32
did you wish I'd asked? And what is your answer?
Carl Berryman 1:01:34
What question do I wish you had asked? Let's see. I'm gonna go with the same question and give you a different answer. Because the question I asked last time, that was, what am I embarrassed about? That I am ashamed that I'm embarrassed about that I wish I wasn't embarrassed about. And it's how little I appreciate and love myself for the work that I'm doing. And the reason I say that is because there's this awesome guy named Mark that comes into the gym. Super nice guy. He actually works there, too. I see him there this morning. hadn't seen him a couple of weeks. He comes in, he's wearing a tank top. And he looked he looked good. Like he looked any he hadn't even started working out. Yeah, like, his shoulders were pop and he had some good size. Like he looked. He looked better than the last time I saw him. So I went up to him. As soon as I was done training my clients. I'm like, Hey, dude, like, you're looking good. He's like, Oh, thanks, man. I'm like, you haven't even started yet? How do you look like that? Like, that's like, I want to look like that when I have a pump. But and he's quite a bit bigger than me too. So I was jealous. And as I'm walking away, I'm thinking, Carl, like, you look at all these people that you say they're doing good. And you'll even go up to them and say they're doing good. And you're comparing yourself to them saying I should be more like that. Like, what is it going to take for me to finally accept myself? What is it going to take for me to finally accept that all this work I'm putting in is, is doing something good? Like, what is it going to take for me to be able to accept a compliment? Like I, as soon as people give me compliments? I, I've gotten better at it. But I just shrug it off. Like I make some type of joke or excuse. And it's because I'm super uncomfortable with it. I'm super uncomfortable acknowledging the fact that all the hard work that I dedicate myself to is actually paying off. Is it any wonder why I don't like the process sometimes, because I'm not taking the time to acknowledge myself for the hard work I'm putting in. So I, I wish I didn't shit on myself as much as I did. And I really wish that I took time to acknowledge the work that I'm putting in. And is
Philip Pape 1:03:35
this a? Is this a practice that you want to do more of for yourself? Or is this learning to accept others compliments,
Carl Berryman 1:03:42
it's a practice I want to do more for myself and I already have things in place that I've just postponed. So I've got like, I think I've talked to you about my cookie jar. And my cookie jar is just for those who don't know, it's, it's literally wooden cookies, and you you paint dots on them. So it looks like chocolate chips. But on the other side, you write down the date and something you've either accomplished, or something that you at least had the courage to try and Jenny Lee got me this cookie jar, and she put like 60 cookies in there for me. And there's all these things in there the day I quit Canada Post my very first for our boot camp. And there's a lot of stuff in there that I tried and failed that but I had the courage to try. And I went and bought 60 More cookies like two months ago. And I haven't made another one yet. Because to me every single when I used to go in the cookie jar, I'd pull it out and it was like I use them for bookmarks or in the morning right before I leave. I was just going there to remind me like Carl, you've done some pretty amazing shit. Like you need to stop and just take a breath and reflect on the fact that you are you are literally being the change you wish to see in your world. Like I've got it tattooed on my arm. I am being the man that I want to be and I'm not I don't have I have the practices set up for it and I haven't taken the time to implement those practices.
Philip Pape 1:04:52
Well, dude, you've impacted my life for the better. And I know individuals you've impacted and you know that you know, they cuz there's people that are in our circle. I want you to text me with that first new cookie you Okay? There we go.
Carl Berryman 1:05:07
Okay. Okay. All right, I promise you, I will have one Dental. Yeah. And that's
Philip Pape 1:05:12
great. I mean, this is a form of gratitude for yourself, honestly. And you know, and I know you talked to Darlene just like I didn't have daily gratitude practice is a good thing to have. And I liked that idea. I might, I might steal that idea as a way to do it for myself in some way. So thank you, Carl. Man, I think this was just what we expected and more, I hope, and
Carl Berryman 1:05:32
always, buddy, this is you know, thank you for the amazing questions. Thank you. Thank you for having the courage to challenge me because that's what I talked about earlier. Right. Like that's, that's what I love about our relationship is we're not shy on challenging others perspectives. And at the same time, we will defend where we know our truth is so I love that for us,
Philip Pape 1:05:48
for sure. And I hope the listeners feel like they can challenge themselves challenge each other look for their support structures. Listen back to the episode with you know, whatever resonates with you and take action on it today, because that's really what we're all about. Always a pleasure talking to you, my brother.
Carl Berryman 1:06:05
Thank you remember.
Philip Pape 1:06:09
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 73: Breaking Free of the Clean Plate Club for Sustainable Weight Loss with Lisa Salisbury
Today I’m excited to have Lisa Salisbury join me to explore the role of our higher brain in making better decisions about our health and the concept of portion distortion and its impact on our food choices. In this episode, Lisa talks about listening to our bodies, the negative effects of the clean plate club mindset, food waste, and sustainable eating.
Today I’m excited to have Lisa Salisbury join me to explore the role of our higher brain in making better decisions about our health and the concept of portion distortion and its impact on our food choices. In this episode, Lisa talks about listening to our bodies, the negative effects of the clean plate club mindset, food waste, and sustainable eating.
Lisa is a weight loss life coach who helps women shed pounds without tracking food. Her personal struggle with chronic dieting drives her expertise in breaking free and achieving weight loss success through coaching.
Lisa is a certified Health Coach through the Institute of Integrative Nutrition and a certified Life Coach and Weight Loss Coach through The Life Coach School. She also has a BS from Brigham Young University in Health and Human Performance.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:13] Lisa’s personal journey from chronic dieter to health, life, and weight loss coach
[7:15] Using our higher brain to make better health and wellness decisions
[12:22] The importance of a long-term, sustainable approach to eating and how to achieve it
[18:24] Portion distortion and how it impacts our food choices
[21:29] The impact of the clean plate club and strategies for breaking free from this mindset
[22:54] Stephanie shares her experience with her one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[25:06] Food waste and why it’s important to address
[28:16] Overcoming portion distortion and learning to listen to our bodies
[30:24] The diet mentality and diets with end dates
[34:30] Overcoming the mindset of labeling foods as “good” or “bad”
[38:54] How to pick “power foods” that work for your body and lifestyle
[40:36] Success stories of others who have transformed their relationship with food and their body, and the impact on other areas of their lives
[42:50] Choosing the exercise you do
[47:14] Where can you learn more about Lisa
[48:18] Outro
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IG: @well_with_lisa
Podcast: Eat Well, Think Well, Live Well
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Transcript
Lisa Salisbury 00:00
Everything really that puts us in that diet mentality is can be really damaging to creating a lifestyle that you really want to live if you're looking at your future self five years, 10 years, you know, however many years down the road and you can't picture yourself eating this way. That's a diet.
Philip Pape 00:21
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today I'm excited to have Lisa Salisbury join me to explore the role of our higher brain in making better decisions about our health, and the concept of portion distortion and its impact on our food choices. In this episode, Lisa reveals how to listen to our bodies and discusses the harmful impact of the clean plate club mindset. We're also going to delve into the issue of food waste and the importance of a long term sustainable approach to eating. Lisa Solsbury is a health and weight loss life coach for women who want to lose weight without counting and calculating their food. As a former chronic Dieter, Lisa knows what it's like to be all consumed with everything that goes into your mouth. It was only when she learned the tools and skills through coaching that she was able to drop the dieting obsession and drop her weight. Lisa is a certified health coach through Institute of Integrative Nutrition, and a certified life coach and weight loss coach through the Life Coach School. She also has a BS from Brigham Young University and health and human performance. She takes her clients through a 12 week program designed to help them eat well think well and live well. When you learn the skill of paying attention to your body and losing weight. You'll be surprised at how it translates into other areas of life. And Lisa also shares many of her best tools and solutions on her podcast. Eat well think well live. Well make sure to subscribe. And Lisa, welcome to the show.
Lisa Salisbury 02:08
Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Glad to be here.
Philip Pape 02:11
Absolutely. Thanks for coming on. And you know, I mentioned in the intro that like many of us and many people listening your former chronic Dieter, right, the yo yo diets, you try it, you probably tried a lot of different things. And then you learned and grew. And you develop these skills that help you drop the obsession. Now you're paying it forward with your coaching as a health life and weight loss coach. So tell us more about the discoveries, the transformation that you went through that now give you this power and ability to help people today?
Lisa Salisbury 02:40
Yeah, so I was on a roller coaster of diets. It's I started dieting in high school when several adults made mention that I should lose some weight, which is like crazy when I look back on pictures. Yeah, so you know, just then I went on to get married had four children. So those years 910 years of being either pregnant or breastfeeding. So the in between times was just an absolute roller coaster. I just thought, well, I got it, I kind of get my weight down before I get pregnant again, blah, blah, blah. And then you know, with my last baby, I've told this story lots of times, it's very rare that you can really think about your thoughts so long ago unless you have a journal that you like, specifically wrote it down in but I distinctly remember having the thought, this is the last time I can be fat. Like how was so much scarcity around that. So in an untrue like being pregnant is not the same as being overweight in any way, shape, or form. But this is where my brain was like I'm just being honest with what I was thinking. But you know what that created is I have to eat all these foods now. Because I'm not going to be able to eat them later.
Philip Pape 03:57
This is this my only moment. Yeah, this this Yeah, nine months and time.
Lisa Salisbury 04:01
This is the last time I'll be allowed. And then everyone will tell me I have to lose weight. And so, you know, my youngest is 15. It took me still several several years after that. To get to the point of being ready for coaching. I just decided all these diets like this one is going to work for sure this one that tells me what to eat on Monday and Tuesday and then something different on Wednesday and Thursday. And now broccoli is off limits for Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Like it didn't make any sense the kinds of diets that I was doing. And so I ended up really heavy into counting and calculating weighing all my food to the point where I was bringing my food scale to the dinner table in front of my children. And I know that there are people out there that absolutely can count calories and count macros in a healthy way. It wasn't for me. I think it's just part of my personality part of where my brain goes. It creates A lot of obsession and a lot of anxiety. And so when I would go to a restaurant, for example, and not be able to figure out the nutritional information, like just just a calorie count wasn't good enough, I had to know how many protein macros. So I went one or two ways, I would just not enjoy the meal, be completely anxious and be like, I don't know what I'm going to do about this. Or I would be like, well, I can't track it. So I'll just eat all the things. So it it just wasn't a healthy place for me. And whether I was Orthorexic you know, with the obsession with eating healthy. I don't know that I was actually had an eating disorder. But I was definitely had, I definitely had disordered eating. And I think a lot of us can have disordered eating without being a diagnosed eating disorder. And I think that's definitely where I was. So the first time I sat down to eat lunch and not track it, it was like, it still produced a lot of anxiety. But I was like, yeah, yeah, I was like, Okay, but what if I eat too much. And so what I learned was to just really depend on my body more, and to use a hunger scale. And what I figured out was that I can use all of that information I learned about health and fitness and nutrition and protein, and the importance of carbs and all of those things. I can use that without being obsessive about it. I recently actually started making a recipe, it's just a silly little thing. It's just for Turkey, breakfast sausage. But originally, it came from a diet cookbook that I had. And I realized, you know what, I just actually like that sausage, it's okay for me to eat that. And this is to take advice from my past self. Like, actually, you feel great when you eat a lot of protein. That's okay. You don't have to count count and calculate it. If it makes you feel obsessive. But you can also just make sure you're eating protein at every meal. So there's a difference between throwing it all out the window, and just picking and choosing what is what is brain healthy
Philip Pape 07:14
for you, Lisa, there's so much in that story. I really love it. Because a lot, a lot of us coaches do have very similar approaches. And when you think of flexible dieting, it's like hey, just count your calories and macros that that's that's effective, go and do it. But you have to meet people where they're at and what works for them. And you said that you had to figure all this out before you were ready for coaching. I haven't heard somebody put it that way. But I love that because you're saying that to help others, you have to help yourself and understand and have gone through that journey. And you said, Hey, counting calories wasn't for me. But you figured out what was things like how you felt, and having the freedom to do it in a different way, the hunger scale, right? How you could still have disordered eating patterns if you're not careful, even if you don't have an eating disorder. So really good stuff. And I wonder if all of this then leads to how you use the higher brain discussion in all of this context to make these decisions. Is that Is that what you mean by that? Or can you explain the higher brain and then how we can maybe tap into that? Yeah,
Lisa Salisbury 08:18
so part of like, what I was ready for was, I was so dependent on either the book that I had purchased, whatever diet plan, the food list, or most consistently, my technology diet apps, that I just had no trust in myself whatsoever. And that's what learning about coaching about the higher brain really helped me to do was to be like, actually, I have a lot of wisdom here, my body has a lot of wisdom. So using your higher brain to make your food decisions. Well, let me back up the brain, you can kind of divide into two parts. When you're thinking about thinking your higher brain is the one that does all the planning all of the thoughts ahead of time. It's your human brain. It's the part that makes the good decisions, right? The lower brain is the habit brain, it's the part that we want to delegate things down to. We don't want to have to consciously think about brushing our teeth, for example, we have delegated that down to the habit brain, we can do something else while we're brushing our teeth. Like maybe you're scrolling Instagram, while you're brushing your teeth because it's a habit. I noticed this especially with like driving, a lot of times you like you get home and you're like, did I like past the park? Like,
Philip Pape 09:32
how did I get here?
Lisa Salisbury 09:34
Like because it's you know, somewhat delegated to that lower brain. Part of the issue when we delegate eating down there to the lower brain, which, by the way, the brain wants to do this as much as possible because it's very, very efficient. And so when we delegate eating down there, we get into habit eating, mindless eating, and emotional eating. So habit eating is like, Well, I always have a snack when the kids come home from school because that's what we do. Like regardless of if I'm hungry or not, regardless of, you know, whatever is going on, like, we have a snack, like you're not a toddler, so we don't have to. So there's that, right, that's a habit mindless is when you're like passing by your co workers desk, and you grab a handful of candy, because it's there and you're, you know, 17 jelly beans in before you're like, oh, oh, I'm eating again. Right or if we're, if we choose to eat while we're doing other things, if you're eating in the car that's mindless, if you're eating in front of the TV that can be mindless, we're not we're just delegating that habit of getting food into our mouth down to that habit brain. And then this also is where emotional eating comes in. Because the habit brain or that lower brain wants immediate gratification. And it also wants to solve for emotions. When you're tired, sad, bored, stressed, you want to solve for that, and your lower brain goes, Hey, you know what solved for this in the past. And by solved I mean, what gave me a big dopamine hit. You know, what solve for this in the past is some, you know, some caramel corn, that's gonna help us right now, that will give us a big hit of of dopamine. And sure enough, it works. And so then we use that as evidence going forward. So we've got to take our eating up into our higher brain in order to really not only connect it with our body, but also just make those decisions from our future selves from our human selves, not depending on that habit brain, because frankly, she just doesn't do that great of a job.
Philip Pape 11:43
This is this is such a good classification for people. How you how you separate the higher and lower and just to clarify, you're putting the habit eating mindless eating and emotional eating all in the lower brain. Is that right? Usually, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And that's a good distinction. There's actually a friend of mine, if he's listening, his name is Tony and my barbell club. And he's always getting on me for we tried to work on his macros and, and shift his protein and carbs for his training. And eventually, he's like, I just can't do this. This is not for me. He's like, I listen to my body. And it all works out. I'm like, perfect. And that's, that's what you want. That's for you. Anyway, get it off off track here. But the habit eating the mindless eating and the emotional eating, taking from that to a place of control is, I think, where a lot of people want to be right. They want to be empowered, they want to have control over the situation. So how do we do that?
Lisa Salisbury 12:34
Yeah, yeah, a couple ways that you want to keep your eating in the higher brain realm. Number one, you gotta plan ahead. Because the habit brain is the one that's like chocolate plate. Excuse me, chocolate cake for breakfast sounds great. Your Higher human brain is never going to write down let's have chocolate cake tomorrow morning for breakfast, like it just doesn't, right. So we want to plan ahead, I have my clients do a 24 hour plan. So most often they do this in the morning, they're just going to jot down what I'm going to have for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Not necessarily the amounts, just what I'm going to have eggs and toast for breakfast, I'm going to have leftovers for lunch, leftover pasta from last night for lunch, you know, whatever it is, they just write it down. And when they get to dinner, and they've written down broccoli, and they're like, no broccoli doesn't really sound good. Like maybe I'm just gonna, that's where we go, Oh, I've made this decision from our higher brain and right, we've got to get our commitments in but, but first and foremost, we want to plan because that keeps our habit brain out of the decisions. Yeah. So that's, that's first and then secondly, we want to eat without distractions. And this prevents our that mindless and and habit eating. So we want to say I only eat when I'm sitting down at the table or at your breakfast bar or wherever you like to eat from a plate. And without I'm going to everyone's gonna grow in here without your phone
Philip Pape 14:07
or tablet or TV or anything.
Lisa Salisbury 14:11
Yeah, just you know what if you've given yourself 30 minutes for lunch, like eat for 15 minutes and then scroll Instagram for 15 minutes. We've got to separate it because especially at first when you're really wanting to listen to your body and really deciding have I had enough Is this the right amount of food for me? Do I Do I need to eat more to sustain myself till my next meal? You have to pay attention to the food. And when we're just habit eating either by this is the amount I always eat. When I really got out of this like habit eating I realized you know what is too much is the portion of oatmeal I always fix for myself. I realized every every time I ate it I was like that's a little too much. I started just experimenting with the amount I'm like, Oh, I was only eating that amount because it was my habit to eat that amount. So, you know, just these habit portions and, and just times that we eat. So we just we got to stay in touch with the food that we're eating, even if you can only practice this for one meal a day at first, like just practice we want to sit down, smell the food for just a couple of breaths, take a deep breath, get yourself into rest and digest mode to your food, Put your fork down between bites, all of that stuff, all of the mindful eating. Not only is this going to help you, you know, keep that eating in your higher brain area. But it's also going to increase your satisfaction. Over time that you'll find that you just don't need. Like, I just need a little something more just a little something sweet now, because that's usually coming from I just didn't get enough dopamine from this, I need a little more.
Philip Pape 15:53
It's true. How would you handle? Is there sort of a breaking in period for this where you'd recommend limiting going out to restaurants? Or how do you deal with social situations here where you're distracted by other people?
Lisa Salisbury 16:06
Yeah, I would say that there is a breaking in period only because as far as the way I work with my clients is we just make one tiny change every week. Just one tiny change each session. Because if you try to overhaul your whole eating nutrition life at one time, that's called a diet. And it's not sustainable. Right?
Philip Pape 16:27
Whatever. Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 16:30
i We practice these things at home. Yes, there's a breaking in period, I had a client who was she was a travel guide, not just an agent, she would plan at home, but then would also guide the the trips over in Europe. So mid mid working with me, she had a six week break where we weren't working together because she was going to be guiding. And it was part of the part of the trip she was guiding was in Italy. And she we literally practiced eating pasta, because she's like, I love the pasta. I like you know, I want to be able to eat and I was like, Absolutely. There was no way I was going to that she was going to go to Italy and not eat pasta. But what she wanted to figure out is how to not eat all the pasta, how to not be too, so much that she
Philip Pape 17:15
felt slurping it up. Yeah, we tend to do.
Lisa Salisbury 17:18
Right. And so, you know, she came back from that six week trips down, I think, I don't know, it's been a few months now. So I can't remember if she was down four or five pounds, something like that, but not what she expected. She had consistently gained on all of her of her guiding trips, which is why she came to me, of course. And so not only did she lose weight, but she ate all the she ate pasta when she wanted. But she was aware and and had practiced and knew that she didn't need to eat everything on her plate, and was able So yes, there was like some practice time at home before she put herself in that situation. But certainly don't like say, Well, I can't go out to dinner because I haven't practiced enough.
Philip Pape 18:04
Use it as an opportunity, perhaps. Sure. Yeah, this is good. I'm glad I had some protein before we recorded this because I'm just thinking of Nucci. It was like the first time I ever had it or gnocchi, I'm sorry. My wife and I honeymoon. That was the first first time I had that back then I did not have these strategies. So it would have helped. So you mentioned portions. And I know there's a phrase you've used, I could guess it what it is, but I want you to help us understand portion distortion, how it affects our ability to make choices about how we eat and again, more strategies. People are getting a lot of great strategies from this conversation.
Lisa Salisbury 18:38
Yeah, maybe not as much in Europe. I noticed when I was there last summer, the portions weren't nearly as big. But here in America, we are really, really fighting with a huge increase in portions. Primarily, we're seeing this in restaurants, which is a concern because we the average American consumes somewhere around 65% of his energy at home. That was actually the last time that that was studied is was in the late 90s. So I think now we're well well over that percentage. So we we've just continue to see a decline decade over decade of the amount of food that we are consuming at home, which means we're consuming far more in restaurants. So what we're seeing in restaurants is this huge increase in portions, then our brain is like this is the amount I should eat because this is the amount they've served to me. And then we go on to duplicate that at home. Just for an example in the 80s our bagels were about three inches across. And now today they're about six inches across. So that's right, like yeah,
Philip Pape 19:51
my daughter has made homemade bagels with with and they were like half the size. I'm like, oh,
Lisa Salisbury 19:57
what's wrong with this bagel? Oh, it's from the 80s Yes. But yeah, it's so not only are we seeing this increase in portion that were served in restaurants. And also, let me say that if you were to look up the nutritional information for that restaurant, it's going to tell you that that large fry that you ordered is actually like three servings, right? But it the serving sizes hasn't really changed as much as what we are served, which is our portion. So it gets tricky too. Because even if you look at, like cookbooks, like the Joy of Cooking, for example, which is like a classic cookbook that they've revised over the years, the they even specify fewer servings, so like the same, the exact same recipe for brownies served 16 in the 80s. And the new version, it serves nine, it's the same recipe. So
Philip Pape 20:50
double double the size. I got it. Yeah, or per serving. Yep.
Lisa Salisbury 20:53
So ultimately, when there's more food in front of us, we're just more prone to eating past fullness. It just, that's just the way it is. And I think if you don't mind I'll go into it's because of we have this, this aversion to number one wasting food. And number two, we have an aversion to not being in the clean plate club. Right, most of us from our childhood.
Philip Pape 21:18
So true, I was just thinking about that this morning, Lisa, just coincidentally how you know, our parents were would would want us to clean our plates. And on top of that, we would tie that to getting dessert. And also it was tied to not wasting food and not just food but not wasting it because it costs money. You know, we don't want this money to go to waste. And it just compiles and compiles especially when the portions get bigger and bigger. So that's so relatable to people. Yeah,
Lisa Salisbury 21:42
yeah, it's all tied together. And it's, it's interesting, because we use this phrase, collectively, the clean plate club are cleaning our plate. And turns out the clean plate club was a government program in World War One, and then again in World War Two. So our parents and our grandparents, literally might have been members of the clean plate club in their elementary school, because it was instituted during the time where there were rations. And if your parents ever said to you like, well, they're starving children in Africa, because that's where there were issues. You know, in the 80s, when I was a child, it's because they're probably their parents were like, hey, they're starving children in Europe that we need to really conserve, so we can send a food over there. That really did happen at that time that you were serving. Yeah, I wasn't aware of that. That's yeah, it's crazy, actually, like you can find like the government posters and things that they were putting up for the kids. So it's no wonder our parents told us to clean our plates. And the idea back then was take what you need, because of course in school cafeterias back then it was all homemade food, and you know, not Lunchables, and uncrustables, and whatnot.
22:54
The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work. And also just be a genuine person that is positive. And coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embody all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
Lisa Salisbury 23:39
Take what you need for your body. And by finishing, you've told us that you took the amount that was right for your body, right over eating wasn't glorified as much back then. So first of all, just the clean plate club is not a cool club, you don't get your photo in the yearbook. Like I renounce your membership now, like throw away your membership card, we don't need to be in that we're not in that situation. Now. We can obviously do what we can for people that don't have enough food and you know, use our money wisely, their donate to charity, all of those things, but you not cleaning your plate actually doesn't affect them. Like it maybe did some more time. Right? Yeah. So we want to practice like leaving a little food behind to let our brains know nothing bad happened. Nothing bad happened when I left two bites of food behind that lunch. And so being able to throw away just a little bit, just a little bit of food. Number one, you're going to decide you're going to help to determine if you actually need to eat as much as you do, which two bytes is probably not going to make or break you. But it'll get you used to the idea that food can be left behind and then when you're at a restaurant and you're like no really they brought me to him. Watch your like, it's okay to leave it behind because your brain is like, if nothing bad happens.
Philip Pape 25:05
It's funny, at least you say that because my wife would say, I'm gonna take those two bites, and we're going to take them home as leftovers, like, even if it's just two bites, you know, which is not letting food go to waste, but you're also not eating it in the moment.
Lisa Salisbury 25:18
Yeah, the thing about, you know, wasting money, and especially when we're talking about restaurants, we attribute the amount of money that we're paying for the food as if that's the same as the value or it being worth it. But when you go to a restaurant, you're not actually paying for volume of food. Unless, you know, it's like the supersize menu or whatever like, but that's not really what we're talking about. You're really paying for the taste, the experience, not having to do the dishes, the time that you're spending with your spouse, or loved one, or friends or whoever you're out with, and getting enough food that your body is no longer hungry. But you're not really paying for the volume. That's not really where the value of going out is, if we were like, I have to get all the value out of my food we would only ever cook from scratch and
Philip Pape 26:10
cook our own food. Yeah, totally, totally true. I hear what you're saying. And going back to your earlier comment about listening to your body and becoming mindful. I wouldn't be surprised if you find that many of the much of the food you get at restaurants does not make you feel the best compared to cooking your own food. And you start to be like, Hmm, well, I'm not even getting my money's worth for the food itself. And I do this for the other reasons. Yeah, it's really good that people are aware of that. And to
Lisa Salisbury 26:35
like, especially when you're like out on, you know, for fun at a nicer restaurant, more of that food is actually past your fullness past your comfortable fullness, more food is actually going to start decreasing your enjoyment of the experience. Fair enough. Because more of the food. Yeah. And you're just going to end up thinking, Now I feel gross. Now. I feel bloated. I don't like that restaurant because I feel I feel yucky when I go there because only because you ate too much. I found myself at Olive Garden recently, which was actually we've lived in the town that we live in now for almost 11 years. My husband, I have never been to the Olive Garden. But we were going out with friends. The place we were gonna go to was was booked and they're like, hey, the friends were like, let's just go to Olive Garden. And my husband and I are like, Okay, I mean, I guess like,
Philip Pape 27:28
like who goes to abortions? Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 27:30
We told him to go to Olive Garden. Like, like 55 and above. Anyways, we go to Olive Garden. And I was like, you know, I can enjoy Olive Garden. Like, it's a salad and I make pasta at home. I just as soon as my portion came, I just cut it in half. I just made a delineation. And I was like, I mean, I say that's going to be about enough. I ate what I what I had, you know, kind of designated as we were talking and enjoying the company. And I really thought I was like, I could totally keep eating here. Sure. I could totally but I was like, I'm just gonna see what happens if I don't. I'm just gonna see if and turns out. I didn't feel gross after eating at the Olive Garden. I was like, oh, yeah, you can just you can eat food and not feel gross if you don't over eat it. And my enjoyment of that experience was way more than I've had I had eaten the whole portion. And then I would have been like all of our and basically feel gross.
Philip Pape 28:25
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's so many these are great strategies for people. And you mentioned the other one about the the more you pay for the food the general you're not paying for the food. We're I'm thinking of here is my wife and I went on a date night to a very nice restaurant and all the portions were pretty small, beautifully prepared, beautifully plated, and there was a lot of variety. And actually reminded me of years ago when I went to Japan and everything was like dim sum it was which is not a Japanese term, but it was like you know, 18 different things on the table but tiny bits of it and felt like it was just a wonderful culinary experience. So just people listening there's a lot of ways to kind of skin the skin the cat here and still meet your goals is what Lisa is trying to say. Yeah, yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 29:08
Here's here's kind of a side note to being you know, date night. Another thing especially I have this one particular client that this was always her thing she's like, we go out for dinner and we're like out on date night and then like I eat too much. And I don't want to you know, keep doing date night at home. You want to think about how you want to feel in an hour in two hours and three hours not always your your long term goals. Although very important, don't always create the behavior you want in the moment. So you want to have some like shorter term like how do I want to feel in two hours? Do I want to feel like getting naked? I should probably stop it just enough then instead of over eating this meal. Because I'm not going to feel like that. What I'm saying
Philip Pape 29:54
that's a good one. That is a really good way like how am I going to with this date night has a certain you know, story behind it and That's gonna conclude a certain way. Do I want to feel like, you know, I'm pushing the limit there of my, my belt? Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 30:08
Great, have a short term goal, you know?
Philip Pape 30:11
For sure. No, yeah, short term goal. Yeah, you're right, because we can't think long term humans are pretty bad at grounding ourselves in the moment when the goal is so far out. And that's why we do baby steps and habit forming. You know, I want to keep looking at some of your philosophy here, because one of your, one of your tenants is about diets at end dates like that diets within dates are one of the worst things you could do, mentally. And actually, this segues a little bit nicely, since we were talking about deep further down in the future with a goal. And we're talking about sustainable eating and said, So tell us about your thoughts on that. How do we transition from the dieting mentality?
Lisa Salisbury 30:49
Yeah, when when you have these diets that have end dates, like six weeks slimmed down, you know, the famous one that has a 30 day end date, it really just tells your brain on day 31, we can have a cupcake, you're not building what I like to consider as a lifestyle. Nobody should be dieting for their whole life. Nobody. Dieting is not a hobby. Like, we don't want to just pick it up every other month. Right? Like, take up knitting, if you need a hobby. But when we have these diets that have end dates, it just tells our brain that what we're doing right now is very limited, and it creates a ton of scarcity. So I mean, so much language has scarcity, we are like I better I better not eat this food, because, you know, we might not, we might never get it again. So I better eat all of it at one time. It then it when you're on those kinds of diets with end dates, you have things like cheat days. So we end up referring to food as good or bad. We add these morality, like everything really, that puts us in that diet mentality is can be really damaging to creating a lifestyle that you really want to live, if you're looking at your future self five years, 10 years, you know, however many years down the road, and you can't picture yourself eating this way. That's a diet. I can picture myself prioritizing protein, eating lots of fruits and vegetables, choosing whole grains, I can picture myself doing that for the rest of my life. I don't want you to diet for the rest of your life. I want you to care about your health for the rest of your life. It's it's a huge difference between caring about your health and caring about what goes in your body. And eating as little as possible. Yeah, I know especially sorry, one more thing I know is for your clients and mine. Sometimes we are in a fat fat loss phase. I get that ask about that. This is okay. Yeah. Okay. So I get that sometimes we need to be in a fat loss phase. But I'm eating protein. I'm prioritizing protein and eating lots of produce in a fat loss phase as well.
Philip Pape 33:02
Yes. Yes, exactly. You're eating the same, you're just scaling it and you may maybe some slightly different decisions for hunger and things like that. Yes.
Lisa Salisbury 33:11
Right. So it's an end to we want to decide if, if our future self if that lifestyle we want to lead eats a cookie now. And again, we need to learn how to eat a cookie now and again, in the fat loss phase. Because part of the problem is we overeat the cookies because we've put them on restriction. And so if you're like, I want to be able to eat one cookie, I want to walk through the room where there's a plate of brownies, and either just casually say no, or say Oh, I do have a brownie plan for today. I'm gonna have one. We want to be able to do that. And so incorporating those things into our even into our fat loss phase can be very healthy because then your brain is like, Oh, we get to eat this. Like whenever we plan it like that seems weird for us, but also very cool.
Philip Pape 34:06
Oh, so many stories about that a fellow coach of mine, she did a in her last fat loss phase. She promised to eat a doughnut every day just to show our clients you could do it and she likes donuts. So of course she of course she made it work. And she talked about some of the consequences of when you do that is there's there's choices you have to make. So obviously you're gonna have four donuts a day, it's gonna affect everything else you're eating and make you feel a certain way. But yeah, I was gonna ask you about that exact thing about playing devil's advocate and Alan Aragon you know, the founder of flexible dieting, so to speak, is a phrase in one of his books called straining the conscience. It's what happens when we make food, a moral decision. And it's when we have good and bad and we have this rigidity and restriction you talked about versus any food is really possible as part of our diet. It's just we have to align it to our goal. So what do you have any more thoughts about that morality thing which effectively goes away like You said when you can just allow yourself to eat anything at any time. Just just with these, this mindfulness associated Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 35:06
I think the biggest problem with assigning morality to food is that then we then it inadvertently becomes the label on ourselves. How many times have you heard someone say, Well, I was really good today. I had a solid.
Philip Pape 35:18
I know, I was good. I was bad. Yeah, I was bad. I was on me at this point. Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 35:24
Right. Like, I know, you hear it, and you're just like, oh, it's like nails on a chalkboard down for me. But oh, boy, did I use that language all the time. And so that's really the biggest problem with assigning these values to food. And then, and then we use words like cheat day, you know, someone, you're, you know, you're eating something and someone's like, Oh, is it cheat day? Like, no, no, Karen, it's just.
Philip Pape 35:53
Yeah. Or like, clean, right? Clean. Even that has some judgment to it. Yeah, whole natural, maybe not as much. But you get labels like healthy is a label, like all these labels have some judgment to them? For sure.
Lisa Salisbury 36:06
And the thing is, you can just decide like, you know what, I feel better, my body feels better. When I generally am choosing single ingredient foods would some diet guru call what I eat what you know, call this meal clean, maybe. But I don't need to label it that way. This is just food that works well in my body. These these foods work well. For me, I made a cake over the weekend that my son was here, he brought his girlfriend home. And so you know, I made a dessert for the dinner. And I had like a, like a little sliver of it yesterday. Like I'm like, I'm just gonna have a few more bites of this cake. And right afterwards, I was like, I do not feel very good. And I'm like, Yeah, that's so fascinating that my my brain is still like, oh, have a treat, have a snack. But really, I just feel better on single ingredient foods, I just feel better on foods that have less sugar. That's not diety for me. That's just like, hey, I just want to be able to work and not feel gross. I want to be able to sleep and, and not be woken up by these digestive symptoms, like, it's just all about thinking about how you want to have your body feel. If that looks like what somebody calls a clean diet, that's fine. But you don't have to call it that, for sure. And if any of you eat things that aren't clean, quote, unquote, that's also fine. I will function mostly on a like an 8020. Sometimes no fat loss phase, maybe 9010 rule as far as like 80% of the time you're eating those single ingredient, whole foods, things that are going to really feel your body 2010 20% of the time, you're going to choose some pleasure foods.
Philip Pape 37:45
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I mean, and sometimes people have specific needs, like for fiber, or saturated fat, or they're watching bloodwork and things like that. And again, you kind of look, you break it down to your goals and what you're trying to accomplish, not so much this or that food, and you still have this diverse set of foods to choose from. Oh, you know, what I wanted to ask you about this is, we talked about fat loss all the time. I don't know if you're working with anybody who's building muscle who's having to eat in a surplus, is that in your client base of primarily weightlifting?
Lisa Salisbury 38:14
Yeah, generally not generally, I'm working with women who, typically women that come to me are emotional eaters. They're just like, I just eat when I'm not hungry. Like I know this. I overeat at meals. So they're, they're generally not in A. But yeah, I am aware,
Philip Pape 38:32
I asked because there's issues on that side as well. When it comes to now you have to eat way more calories. Again, there, there are challenges with, you want to incorporate more processed foods to do it sometimes because you get too full. And it kind of presents the mirror side of the equation. But we'll focus on on your area of expertise here with the fat loss side of things. You mentioned something called Power foods. I don't know if it was today or in my notes, but you mentioned that things that work for your body and lifestyle. Is that what we've been talking about, or is that a separate? Yeah,
Lisa Salisbury 39:03
yeah, like those those foods that are like these helped me feel powerful. These helped me concentrate these foods helped me, you know, function at my best. I mean, yes, it's a label as far as like, good or bad. I just don't ever say I feel really powerful today because I had a salad. So when you just change your language around it, like power foods, 80% of the time pleasure foods 20% of the time, that that just it changes it enough that you're not going to translate those labels to yourself. Right. And so, it's just a way to give language to some of the foods that you're choosing. Another thing I do sometimes with clients is like a good better best. So like those processed foods or you know, protein bars that maybe have some questionable ingredients. Those are good foods, they have some good protein but maybe not like helping us feel our most amazing self better. And then best foods and So you can kind of look at it in that way, too. As far as like, I know, it just said don't use good and bad. But what I mean by that,
Philip Pape 40:07
I mean, as your minimum is good, yeah. So it's on the positive side of the spectrum. Right? Reframing, I mean, that's what you're doing is reframing, which is great. It's like the the taking, you know, a kind of mindset. Oh, I had a bad workout. I'm like, Okay, let's reframe that. Was it a bad workout? What did you learn from the work? And maybe it was not as productive as you want it? So what are we gonna do next? I mean, it can play in life.
Lisa Salisbury 40:28
And like, Were you tired? What can you learn? Like, did you come to that workout? Already? Fatigue? Did you sleep? Well? Did you have enough?
Philip Pape 40:33
Opportunity? Yeah, totally an opportunity. Alright, so is there? Is there a memorable story of a client maybe who went through this transformation of their relationship with I'm sure you have a lot of them. So I'm wondering, like one? And then and then how it kind of cascaded into other areas of their life? Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 40:52
I don't know that this is like a full story. But I think one of my favorite things one of my clients has ever said to me, is she was like, you know, I'm becoming an emotionally stronger person, which is almost more important to me than then becoming a thinner person. And she was already well, on her way, I think she was, you know, 20 pounds down at that point. And she was like, I mean, that's cool. That's great. But she was shocked at how learning to trust her body trust herself, make decisions from her higher brain was helping her in so many other ways. One of the things I teach is how to process cravings. And it's really the way that we feel our feelings, which I know is kind of a mindset, buzzword kind of thing. But it's not. It's not for the faint of heart, just deciding to feel stress instead of eating through it. So learning to do that, and learning to eat the doughnut when she wanted to. She actually doughnuts were one of her things. And she went to a wedding. She was like the maid of honor. And the bride wanted donuts for breakfast. And so she's like, I knew I was gonna have a doughnut. And I was like, it wasn't even that good. I was so shocked. Because she just had mindlessly eating doughnuts for so long. But yeah, just for her to say like, I'm just becoming emotionally stronger. And really, that's what you get out of learning to trust yourself. Again, learning to trust your body, and just going all in on your goals and commitment to yourself.
Philip Pape 42:25
And it sounds like it's, it sounds like it's not really about food is at least it sounds like it's about sitting with these things. I mean, even just made me reflect a little bit on how we are distracted, not just when we eat, we're distracted all day, or busy all day just hustling and working. And especially when we have businesses and how often you just take the time to yourself for any of this reflection of how you feel in the moment. It's a good it's a good lesson. Yeah, so Okay, so I like to ask this second last question of all my guests. And that is, is there a question you wish I had asked? And if so, what's your answer?
Lisa Salisbury 43:01
I saw this there, and I forgot you're gonna ask it.
Philip Pape 43:05
I even give you a little bit of a heads up with the notes, don't I? Not everybody sees it though. This usually leads to a pregnant pause for most guests. So that's why I love it.
Lisa Salisbury 43:15
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Love it, too. So I guess I would say I wish we had. Usually I talked about good bad foods when people say what's like your, your biggest thing. Okay, hold on, you're gonna have to edit this out.
Philip Pape 43:32
Maybe, maybe not. Let's see, this is this is raw. This is real. This is podcasting. You know. I mean, maybe there's something in what you do that we just didn't cover. And it's okay to say, hey, this was the perfect interview, the best interview I've ever been to and you asked every question I could possibly be asked. It's okay to say that to solely trying to. Okay.
Lisa Salisbury 43:59
I think it would I think I would have wished you asked me about exercise and how I incorporate that with my clients. Oh, sure. Training, go for it. Yeah. Because I'm not a personal trainer myself. And so people are always like, well, like, what should I do? What should I do for exercise? And I always tell them, what do you like to do? Let's do that. Like the exercise that you're going to stick with is the one we need to do. And what I've been learning about even more so lately is the importance of your NEET your non exercise Activity Thermogenesis, which is just your movement throughout the day. And so so many people link this diet and exercise together. I got to lose weight. So it's diet and exercise, diet and exercise, diet and exercise. And I really love to disengage those two things. So I actually I kind of looked at becoming a personal trainer like as an add on to what I do, and I'm like, You know what, I'm going to consciously not do that. I'm going to let those folks do what they're good at and if my clients need a personal trainer, like refer them out. But I'm going to consciously stay in the eating space. Because when we link exercise and diet together, we end up deciding that we have to be either punished for what we ate. And how many times have you heard a trainer be like, let's work off that meal, right? Or we're going to torch those calories. Like that's not actually where a lot of your energy expenditure comes from your your exercise for the day accounts for some something around the realm of 5% of your energy expenditure for the day. So we want to exercise for all the other benefits, the mental benefits, the mental health benefits, the the cardiovascular improvement, the balance, all of those things that have nothing to do with the scale. And so I actually love to separate it out. And then just encourage my clients to do what they are going to continue doing. If they don't have any ideas, I always suggest weight training, resistance training. Absolutely. I know that you're a big fan of Yeah, so I do want to make sure that if at all possible they're doing that or if they're open to it, but we just start we just start with if you're like, I just am not sure if I'm ready for resistance training, like start with what you will keep doing. And and if you're still at a loss, start with walking. So that was kind of a roundabout, but just separate it out, you know,
Philip Pape 46:27
just Yeah, no, I couldn't I couldn't agree more. And if we think about the common theme here, it's it's do what you like that fits within your lifestyle. And I think the mindless eating that you that we originally talked about isn't the thing you'd like to do. It's just the thing you're conditioned or you've developed. And the thing you like to do is the thing you choose and plan for which is the same when it comes to exercise. So it sounds like there's a common theme of taking control of your life and making those decisions with the higher brain. Yeah, and the neat. I mean, my listeners have turning talk about that too much. Although it's been a while. But yeah, you're right. Like, if I have a client a fat loss phase, and it's getting a little bit dicey with their their body's response to somewhat modest intake. It's like, maybe we just need to walk more, you know, let's get a little more movement going throughout the day. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. So that was that was the perfect last question to tie in. Lisa, I appreciate that. Where can the listeners find out about you and your work?
Lisa Salisbury 47:22
Yeah, so my website is well with lisa.com. And you can find me on Instagram at well underscore with underscore, Lisa. I do also have a podcast and you're going to be a guest pretty soon here as well. So that's eat well think while live well, you can search for that on any podcast app. And I'm not sure if we're going to put this in the show notes. But I also have a free ebook called go to meals, which just helps you construct some of those meals that work really well for you and eliminate some of those decisions day to day where we are wanting to plan our meals. But we don't want to come up with something new every single day. We have some go to meals that are always on plan.
Philip Pape 48:01
Perfect. Yeah, I'll put the go to meals guide in the show notes along with your IG, your website. And of course everybody here is a podcast listener who's listening to this. So that is a very easy thing for them to go and find you and follow right now because they are listening. So go find eat well think well live. Well Lisa, it's been a real honor and pleasure. I enjoyed this conversation and thank you for coming on the show.
Lisa Salisbury 48:21
Thank you for having me.
Philip Pape 48:25
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promised not to sell or pitch you on anything but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 72: Balancing Strength, Physique, Recovery plus Animal vs. Plant Protein with Eric Helms
I am beyond ecstatic to welcome the Dr. Eric Helms to the show today. Eric’s work has been a huge influence on me in my personal journey, coaching education, and philosophy, and today we're going to discuss evidence-based research, coaching, and communication, what Eric's been up to in the world of powerlifting and bodybuilding. We dive into topics including self-determination theory, training strategies, plant vs. animal protein, and adaptation during weight loss, among others.
I am beyond ecstatic to welcome the Dr. Eric Helms to the show today. Eric’s work has been a huge influence on me in my personal journey, coaching education, and philosophy, and today we're going to discuss evidence-based research, coaching, and communication, what Eric's been up to in the world of powerlifting and bodybuilding. We dive into topics including self-determination theory, training strategies, plant vs. animal protein, and adaptation during weight loss, among others.
Eric is an exceptional coach, athlete, author, and educator focused on natural bodybuilding and strength training. As the Director and Chief Science Officer of 3D Muscle Journey (3DMJ), he heads a team that offers evidence-based information, community support, and holistic coaching for drug-free competitors. With a PhD in Strength and Conditioning from Auckland University of Technology (AUT), Eric has published peer-reviewed articles and co-authored The Muscle and Strength Pyramids, one of the best training and nutrition guides out there.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:44] Eric's story
[5:58] Balancing stregth and hypertrophy
[11:00] Minimum effective dose vs maxing out, 80/20 rule, and nutrition for new lifters
[13:50] How much and how hard to train, training to failure, and progressive overload
[19:24] Mindset, agency, and self-determination
[26:03] Dealing with a client that just wants to be told what to do
[29:10] Lisa credits Philip's coaching for her 17-lb weight loss and gives him a grateful shout-out
[29:55] Learning to lift without a coach
[37:13] Eric's personal routine and his motivation
[40:06] Eric's advice to his younger self, and the key principles for beginner lifters to prioritize strength and size programming.
[49:29] Plant protein vs animal protein
[57:15] Learn more about Eric
[58:32] Outro
Episode resources:
Eric's podcast: Iron Culture
Website: 3dmusclejourney.com
Training and nutrition guide: The Muscle and Strength Pyramids
Latest research: Monthly Applications in Sports Science (MASS)
IG: @helms3dmj
FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Dr. Eric Helms 00:00
Someone might have the capability and the opportunity to do something. But if they're not actually interested and they don't their autonomous desire is not to do something or any other element of it is not actually leading to them having the motivation which doesn't mean like the group X instructor yelling at you, but like the motive to do something. I don't have a why I don't want to do this. It doesn't matter. You know what resources or ability you have to do something you just want to do it.
Philip Pape 00:27
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I am beyond ecstatic to welcome the Dr. Eric helms to the show today. Eric's work has been a huge influence on me in my personal journey, and in my coaching, education and philosophy. And today we're going to discuss evidence based research coaching, communication, what Eric's been up to in the world of powerlifting, and bodybuilding. And we may dive into topics like self determination theory, training strategies, plant versus animal protein, and adaptation during weight loss among others. Eric is an accomplished coach, athlete, author, educator specializing in Natural Bodybuilding and strength training. As a director and chief science officer of 3d muscle journey. Eric leads a team that provides evidence based information, community support, and holistic coaching to drug free strength and physique competitors. With an impressive educational background, including a PhD in strength and conditioning from Auckland University of Technology. He's published numerous peer reviewed articles, and co authored the muscle and strength pyramids, which in my opinion, are among the best training and nutrition guides out there. In fact, that's how I first learned about him about four years ago. But before discovering his other content, including a couple podcasts 3d muscle journey, and iron culture, and his work with mass monthly applications in strength sport, a monthly review of strength and physique training research. In addition to all of that Eric has an impressive athletic career, having competed in Natural Bodybuilding unequip powerlifting, and Olympic lifting since the mid 2000s. Eric's definitely been through the trenches. And he's prepping for both a powerlifting meet and bodybuilding show this year. Eric, it is an absolute pleasure to welcome you to the show.
Dr. Eric Helms 02:32
It's a pleasure to be on. And thank you for the very generous introduction. I appreciate it.
Philip Pape 02:36
Absolutely well deserved. I was very excited for this Sower, my listeners, I'm going to sneak in some questions from them along the way. But for the for the two or three people listening to this show who don't know who you are. Lay it on us. You know, we've given them the official introduction. So just tell us about what you've been up to lately and in the research and lifting communities.
Dr. Eric Helms 02:56
Yeah, like I said, I appreciate the introduction. So if anyone's not familiar with me, I guess a little more of a from the heart introduction of who is Eric helms is someone with an obsessive streak who got hit by the iron bug. Gees close to 20 years ago. Now, I'm turning 40 This year, and I thought it'd be really cool to get back on stage. This will be my fifth season. And I have always been just in love with the pursuit of strength as I have the pursuit of the artistry of bodybuilding, which I really do see as an art and a sport. I'm a competitive person, I like to compete. I want to see how far I can push myself. But I also really appreciate it as an art form. So yeah, it's fun for me, I express myself through the pursuit of strength as well as bodybuilding. And I am currently geez, what does it mean now, so I have a tentative powerlifting meet, which is about as hard as I'm gonna commit. In early July. I live here in New Zealand. You mentioned I got my PhD at the Auckland University of Technology. That's the biggest city in New Zealand in the North Island. I moved out here 10 years ago with my wife had been here since after I did my PhD. I just liked it so much that couldn't get rid of me. So now I'm a research fellow here and I have the privilege of mentoring masters and PhD students just like I used to be and especially if they're down to to do some muscle nerd research that I'm there guy. So yeah, powerlifting meet coming up potentially. The reason why I say it's potential is because I'm going to be dieting down. Oh, I'm dieting down. So I'll be an 83 kilo lifter. I'm six foot for referencing
Philip Pape 04:33
versus versus maybe 993. Yeah, okay.
Dr. Eric Helms 04:37
Exactly. If you look at my my competition history, I've only done like two other meats way, way back in the day at 83. And it was also during a bodybuilding contest prep where I'm gonna get that light anyway. And yeah, so I'm also an M one so a Masters one lifter, so I'm 40 I'm 83 kilos I'm trying to like basically cheat to be slightly better than
Philip Pape 04:59
me Yeah, 20 years, all these years of working hard and getting to his point, it's cheating. Yeah.
Dr. Eric Helms 05:05
100% That's the way that works, you know? Yeah. Cool.
Philip Pape 05:09
Yeah. So welcome to the over 40. Club. You said you're turning 40. But I think it's already happened, hasn't it?
Dr. Eric Helms 05:14
It has. Yes. So, yeah, yeah.
Philip Pape 05:17
And then this, and then doing well. Okay. So back to something you mentioned, which I really liked is the artistry of bodybuilding. And then the muscle nerd research. Maybe that's why I resonate with you. And a lot of other listeners do, too, that just want to know as much as they can about this stuff. And I know you cover this on the iron culture podcast, which I love. It's, I'll say it's not for everybody. And I say that in a good way, because it's very unique. In the pantheon of fitness podcast, it's almost its own little beast out there. But you seem to be balancing it all. And one of the things you just said is you're balancing two things this year, you're balancing powerlifting and bodybuilding. I know you said you're not 100% committed, we'll see what happens, I guess in a few months, right when you get there. But how do you manage them both? I know you've done like whole podcasts on this, but just at a high level, people listening want to excel in both sports, and yet the muscle strength pyramids distinctly talk about strength and hypertrophy and different programming. So how do you balance those?
Dr. Eric Helms 06:15
Yeah, it is. I think probably the best way to put it is a you need to understand what the minimum effective dose is for you to improve it both. And that's a really interesting concept that we often don't explore in sports science, because sports science is often all about getting the maximum out of yourself, because it's competitive sport, right? Health Science, however, I would argue should definitely always be focused on the minimum effective dose, like committing to a lifestyle of exercise and nutrition is very challenging. So what's, what's the amount that we need to move the needle in terms of health and so anyway, that rather unexplored perspective, in sports science has been explored more and more, my good colleague, affectionately called Dr. Pack, but his full name is Dr. Patrick close entrelac, his core cactus, you, of course, have a Greek descent and a proud Greek man and on awesome researcher. He's in Solon University, with Dr. James Steele, who is just, in my opinion, a legend a meta science and pushing sports science forward. And anyway, they've collaborated over the years. And he did his entire PhD looking at what's the least amount of power lifters need to do to get meaningfully stronger. And it's a lot less than the average power lifter probably thinks, which speaks to the kind of the diminishing returns of doing a ton of volume. It's not that it's not worth it. But you know, if we were to look at some of the meta analyses on, say, what does it take to get the highest effect size of improving your one arm strength, there's data that indicate doing one to four sets is at 85%, as good as doing, say, five to 12 sets per week, on average, for someone, you're not an average, you're, you know, an individual. So your mileage may vary. But just to kind of give you the idea that there might be someone out there who does just as well on three sets of squats per week, if it's pretty specific training compared to 10. So you've tripled your volume, and then some, and you're not getting much more out of it. So that kind of perspective helps you program for these things. Because the biggest issue with training for strength and hypertrophy is not their conflicting goals. It's the opportunity cost. It's not like getting stronger to squat, make your quads smaller, which some people talk that way, like like it does. But if anything, if you take any high level power lifter, and you were to diet them down, they'd probably look the part of a bodybuilder just because squats, bench deadlift, and the accessories cover a lot of ground. However, it is very challenging to really get the most out of yourself and balance the two. And if you can, no, what did it take for me to move the needle on one? And that's kind of like my minimum baseline. And you distribute that in an effective way across your your your training split? And you see kind of what juice do you have left? You know, what's left in the tank for me to distribute? And then what choices do I make what is already taken care of with my strength training? And then how do I distribute what was needed for my individual physique. So I'm a little lucky in a way in that my lower body seems to respond quite readily to training. And my upper body seems to require the more volume and also that I'm a lot more resilient to benching a lot in terms of injury aches and pains and strengthen recovery than squat and deadlift. I'm not unique in that way, but I probably am a little unique in that I don't require a ton of leg training. So I can do a fair amount of squats and bench and deadlift and then really I just need to get some calf training in and maybe a couple sets of leg extensions, leg curls, right.
Philip Pape 09:56
So wait, hold on real quick on the bench thing. So you said you're both resilient to that amount of volume and you need it, which is that is a nice combination, which I know people shoulder issues that's very other than low back, that seems to be the most common thing. So if you needed the volume and you couldn't, then that that could be a little bit more of a challenge. Yeah,
Dr. Eric Helms 10:13
absolutely, this is not necessarily an option for everybody, you know. So you sometimes if you're very creative, you might have to do you know, partial training, you might have to figure out what movements that are not actually the competition lifts transfer the most that you can do. And I've been in that position in the past with prior injury, and it's not fun. And I can deal with it when I need to, but at the moment, I'm healthy, and it's just more of a matter of balancing, you know, fatigue, and, and soreness. And, and like, you know, like elbow tendinitis, but nothing real major that can really take, you know, take me and put me on the sidelines.
Philip Pape 10:51
Yeah, so, okay, there's a number of concepts here. They're all they're all great concepts. And I want to, I want to come out with strategies or actions that people can take from this. So you talked about minimum minimum effective dose, versus, you know, maxing out all the time, you also gave some examples, like the minimum amount of sets that you need to get most of the results kind of the 8020 rule, or 85%, which is a common theme in this in this world, it seems which proportion which comports with reality, you talk about protein, in the same way, you know, do we really need to get x grams for for a kilogram when this this can do it? Because you're gonna sacrifice other things? Is this is this a concept that a new lifter should be very concerned about? Or is this more for an advanced trainee?
Dr. Eric Helms 11:33
It depends on the context, really, I think, new lifters, the most important thing is developing a good consistent set of habits and supporting adherence, which is ultimately the most important thing. And unfortunately, you don't have to look very far to find people who are extremely motivated, and then kind of get burned out and stop lifting only a few years later, and they were all about that life, you know, and sometimes it's because I always like to use the analogy of the person who came out a little too strong in a relationship. You know, like you love lifting, that's great. But you got to wait a day to call them you know, give them some space, they need to adapt their life. You don't tell them you love them on the first date, that kind of thing. So,
Philip Pape 12:21
yeah, go watch Swingers, if you're not familiar with this concept, right?
Dr. Eric Helms 12:25
Absolutely. Which I hope your audience is in the same age bracket as we are, or they're not gonna know, even though they know that people are because they're famous now, but they will
Philip Pape 12:34
select my audience with these things. Okay. gaming culture to
Dr. Eric Helms 12:41
not mad about that, dude. So as a Street Fighter two player, I mean, 93. But anyway, the Yeah. So I think one perspective is that a novice only needs so much to progress. So most people who really get bit by the iron bug are doing two to three times the amount of training they can benefit from. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But it probably wouldn't make more sense to focus on you know, a good three sessions on the fundamentals. And, you know, give yourself a little more time to recover. And, you know, distance makes the heart grow fonder kind of thing, and just set up a consistent set of habits, rather than just jumping in full bore immediately. And then as you need it titrating up the volume, or the total stress of your training to continue to progress. So that's kind of my perspective on how beginners should take it.
Philip Pape 13:36
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense that you're either doing too much, you know, when you get really into, you're doing too much, maybe too many days too many sets, trying to do too much, you know, hypertrophy, your direct work, when maybe you just need the big lifts. How do you reconcile that with? In fact, just today, I think there's, I think, stronger by science and data. I don't know if it's associated with mass, but the study about how people may not be training hard enough, right, like in terms of either going to failure or just volume. So how do you reconcile those two concepts? Because there are people that think they're, they're doing something that's effective? And they're not training hard enough?
Dr. Eric Helms 14:11
Yeah. Yeah. So there's a there's an interesting interplay with effort, if you will, and in volume, that's pretty important. Like, all of the research we have on specifically hypertrophy, and the amount of sets that are probably appropriate at a broad population level, their meta analyzed, which just means their studies of studies. So someone has taken all the various studies on saying, hey, how much muscle can you grow by doing X number of sets versus x number sets? And oh, can we get 20 of those studies? Let's put them all together and see if we can get a better estimate with a more robust sample size. And, you know, that's been done a number of times. There's the classic one that's probably most well known, known by Schoenfeld. It's Brad Schoenfeld, who's done a lot of the research we have on hypertrophy. There There was one in the last couple years, that was done by bass Val which kind of explore some of the higher volumes. And when you look at the two, you see a pretty clear relationship where it's not a one to one improvement, you know, you do get more bang for your buck per se in your first few sets. But there's a more notable increase in hypertrophy, when you add more volume in there is in strength, makes kind of sense strength is specific skill, you can only go gets get so much of that. And hypertrophy is more of a physiological adaptation. But anyway, so when you when you look at this research, you have to keep in mind that the vast majority of the studies that have been meta analyzed, they are observed training studies where researchers were in the lab motivating the individuals and encouraging them to go to various forms of failure. And I see various forms because there are various forms that the participant thinks they've reached failure or the, the researcher thinks, Okay, that you know, at bars slow down enough, I think you're at failure, or they actually make them go to the point where they miss a rep. So that describes 95% of the studies that have been meta analyzed. So that means that our understanding of volume is with the assumption of there being sufficient effort. Now the data we have on failure is a whole nother kettle of fish. And it suggests that you don't need to go to failure to get the benefits, but you need to be reasonably close to failure, you can't be six, seven reps short all the time and expect to get the same kind of gains you would be if you were to three, or maybe even for reps short. But therefore, it is an issue if someone is doing what they think is an appropriate amount of volume, but they don't know that they're not training nearly hard enough. However, I think for novices, this is actually less of a problem than than it might necessarily be, so long as they have a mind towards progressive overload, which is such a critical concept. Because if if they are, you know, doing, you know, a five by five with their 12 rep max initially, you know, you're like, Oh my God, that's seven reps on failure, that's never gonna work. Well guess what the heaviest squat they ever did was getting off the toilet last week, you know, like, so putting, you know, is 60 kilos on their back, or 135 pounds, even though they're a 200 pound person. And they could squat that for 12 reps, and only doing sets of five is absolutely progressive overload compared to what they've done. And it will be a sufficient stimulus to give them gains. And as they get more acclimated to the weights, and if they hopefully get feedback from either, you know, a trusted workout partner, or eventually a coach, or just, you know, thrown out a video on or on a Reddit forum being like, Hey, how's my form, people are gonna be like, you know, what did you think your proximity to failure was? You know, I think I had another couple, like, try seven, and like, Oh, really, you know, so, I think, so long as you don't let your ego get in the way. And as you get a little more integrated into the culture, which I think is an important part of any pursuit, then it typically takes care of itself. And some of the research we have on people who are just probably, quote unquote, not training hard enough, is kind of just like a random selection of people at the gym is not necessarily when we're looking at, you know, well trained lifters. And in fact, when we look at well trained lifters, they're actually very accurate at estimating the proximity to failure, which you can experimentally do. And when you meta analyze that scene, so I talked about meta analysts meta analysis, there's a great meta analysis by helpern colleagues was suggested on average, in the studies where we've looked at how accurate are people gauging their proximity to failure, with a fair number of them being on trained lifters? While there's a wide point estimate, on average, it's being one rep off. So the average person who lifts is probably doing fairly well in their estimations or proximity to failure, certainly well enough to be, you know, making their volume matter.
Philip Pape 18:50
Yeah. And I think that you had a lot of great concepts here for the newer lifter, as they're getting into what you call it, the culture, right? That eventually it's going to work out. And I experienced this myself, a lot of people struggle, even knowing what to do, right and listening to folks like you and understanding the research, but basically, just getting out there, and finding a program and doing it right, because adherence is number one, and then building over time, whatever that is, like you said, you may have seminar AR, and then as you if you do sets across and then you add weight, it's going to catch up to where you need to be and you're really going to push yourself that getting ingrained in the culture, I think is is a good segue into self determination theory because one of the elements of that you talked about recently with your friend Omar on Iron culture, I love that show man. Is is relatedness. And you talked about self determination theory, the idea that three three aspects autonomy, competence and relatedness right so autonomy being you know, having agency and then competence and competence building skill and and relatedness having some sort of community or like you said culture, and then having this athlete centered approach if you're a coach to help someone develop that and increase self esteem You also talked about how we could use that ourselves as sort of a checklist. You talked about the Combi model, I'm not gonna get into all the details, if you want to learn the details, folks, go check out iron culture. But putting it all together, it seems that we're not talking so much about a specific program or specific, you know, style of lifting. We're really talking about mindset and agency and self determination, right? So these are valuable things, challenging people giving them knowledge giving them agency. Where am I going with this? I guess I'm looking for you to elaborate a bit on that topic in the context of maybe some stories that you've had, or athletes you've worked with, and share strategies that listener can use to take action in that context.
Dr. Eric Helms 20:41
Yeah, I think what might be useful, just because I'm kind of often position as the Science Guy is to talk about how sometimes when we get a little too rigid with our perspective on evidence based practice, and a little too dogmatic and maybe a little too prescriptive, and feeling like, you know, if there's a study on something, you know, therefore, it's actually a commandment of what we must do now, in what can sometimes turn people off, is that when they're doing something that they like, that they've set out, they've written down, maybe it's not perfect, per the PubMed guidelines right now, but it is sufficient, it covers the big rocks, you know, and they're told, don't do that do this, you should expect based upon our understanding of human motivation, that their knee jerk reaction will be various shades of Go f yourself, you know, depending on how nice they are. Because what you're essentially doing is subverting what we understand from the evidence, ironically, about human nature and human motivation. And you're telling someone, you know, you don't get to decide what you do for yourself, you know, so that may not be your intention, it probably is not. But I think when I have been in a coaching position, or in a science communication position, I've not always been super aware of this, and I've tried to be more aware of it, that I'm essentially, you know, throwing a threat towards someone's autonomy. It's kind of like, you know, you know, you're supposed to clean your room, but you get told to clean your room, and I like a lot of want to clean my room. Now, you know, it's things you otherwise might even want to do bother you, when when someone else is trying to impose what feels like their will on what things that you would do anyway. And this is something I think we can all relate to. And it's kind of the quote unquote, trick of therapy. If you talk to therapists, the reason why they ask questions, and they probe deeper, and they don't just tell you, you're an abusive relationship, you should probably leave this person is because that's far less effective than you realizing and saying to yourself, I'm in an abusive relationship, I should probably leave this person, same message, two very different things, and you can't have a realization for someone else. But you absolutely can assist them and share your perspective so that they might be able to get there faster, or get there at all. And that's ultimately what the role of a coach is. And I think scientists, in an applied field, like sport science, or health science, or exercise science, or nutrition science, would do very well to understand this very basic concept of the way people operate. Because then they can help get someone towards a more effective approach, which will get them better progress, potentially enhance adherence, make them happier, make them more resilient to injury, and maybe less likely to make errors quit getting give up or get frustrated, without actually making a threat to their autonomy. So the idea of autonomy, supportive coaching, is exactly that. It's the idea that it's not about you is the coach, yes, they hired you, yes, you're the expert. But that doesn't mean that you are a dictator, or authority or authoritarian, who just tells the person what to do. And a lot of the times you take a collaborative stance, you might make a suggestion, you might ask for permission, even to make a suggestion. And if there's a given, you know, program that you've been following, or the person has been doing with success, and then you go from there. Cops weren't there for me, we're good. So a lot of the autonomy supported coaching, or what you might call person centered, athlete centered or client centered coaching is based around that principle. It's intertwined with other things like you know, motivational interviewing and other skills that you can build around that. And it's not that it's like all of a sudden, your, your your bachelor's degree in exercise. Science doesn't matter or your certification is not important. But it's really just more about how you get to delivering that information. And it's not something that's just trying to avoid a negative. My experience has been that it's actually a positive that when you communicate with people in this way, they get far more excited, far more invested, they're more likely to train hard and not miss sessions. And they're more likely to communicate with you and give you information because they know that's their role, rather than being told I am a cog in a wheel or I'm the soldier you're that Captain, you know, I'll drink blood, you know, tell me tell me whatever you do, Coach, you know, like, we think that's a good thing like the good soldier, but ultimately, the only access, we have to how is that athlete adapting? You know, what's their their mental outlook on this? What do they think is it working because we're not there in the kitchen with them. Even if we're there in person, we're only there with three hours, you know, a week on average, as a personal trainer, with someone out of the 24 times seven hours they have in a week, the best access, we have to their experience is them telling us that, and if they're not taught that that's an important part of the relationship with the trainer, especially if it's an online trainer who's not even getting those in person. hours, it's just a weekly report, and maybe a video, and hopefully, sometimes some Skype calls or whatever video platform is your preference, the window into their insight, you know, we can make up a lot of things in our head. That's incorrect, but they can tell us a lot. And that's really where we get all our information.
Philip Pape 25:58
Yeah, so one thing I got out of that is never never coach your wife, because a lot of these, a lot of these tips are very much relationship advice as well. But anyway, regarding training, how do you deal with someone? If you have a client? Who is the type that says, Just tell me what to do? Tell me what to do. I'll do it. And I think I hear a lot of, you know, athletes who've just been around, you know, been around the block for years. And now they kind of know what to do. And they want the guidelines and the recommendations, how would you respond to that? Are you trying to help educate them on this motivational research and enlighten them as to how this relationship can be even more fruitful using this? Or what's your approach?
Dr. Eric Helms 26:35
Yeah, a little bit of both. So I mean, one thing is that they're being very clear with what they want. They don't want to sit here and tell you all bunch of shit. Just give me what you think is best, which
Philip Pape 26:43
is agency? Yes. Yep,
Dr. Eric Helms 26:46
yep. You I've hired you to tell me what to do. So quit walking around and talking about this fufu stuff and telling him what to do. Right. And I think you do have to meet them there. I think some of the things that you need to do as a coach is essentially going very kind of, you know, straightforward. If that's the way the athletes kind of delivering that. It's like, Yeah, cool. Well, I need to know X, Y, and Z. So I can tell you what to do. You know, and then, you know, they'll respond to that and kind like, so I need to know, I need you to give me a like a rating of perceived exertion on the whole session on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Wednesday is supposed to be an easier session. So you recover before Friday. But hey, if your if your RPE is similar to day one, three, or higher than that's an issue, I need to know that and we need to change the program. Let me know how the body's holding up when we do this kind of volume. So you need to have give them clear, and not kind of these open ended things. But give them clear things. And I want X, Y and Z from you on these days in this way. And then, you know, I think you do educate them a little bit you explain to them that the best tool, I have to know how you're recovering is what you tell me. My best understanding of your motivation levels is what you tell me. You can absolutely ask them Hey, like, what are your goals? Where do we want to get to? And even ask some wise? Oh, goodness, you know, I think it'll be okay. Sure. So, yeah, I think getting them to open up to you to the degree that they're willing. And if if they if they kind of start with Hey, like, coach, tell me what to do. I want to know what to do. And I've hired you as a consultant kind of deal. Give me the guidelines, then that's great. You just need to always frame things through that. So that's the lens you take. And you okay, for me to do that. I need x, y and z. And then I think you'll you'll find that relationship works quite well. And yeah, so the athletes will tell you what they want on almost all cases, even when what they want is not to tell you much. But they might not know what that actually looks like. And on the other side of it, because they aren't you, right. So they've never been on the other side of a coaching. Well, not that's not true. Many times they haven't been on the other side of the coaching relationship. So being able to communicate to them your needs is pretty important in in all coaching relationships, and framing it in such a way that these are my needs so that I can be of service to you in the most effective way possible. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that
29:09
makes a lot of sense. Hi, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach Philip pape, with his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called macro factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide, and that really helped me so thank you, but
Philip Pape 29:54
what about on the other side where somebody doesn't have a coach and it's a it's a The challenge of motivation, I guess, right? And we throw that word around a lot. But you did talk about this Combi model the capability, opportunity and motivation, driving behavior and using that as a checklist, even for yourself. So how can someone do that someone listening was like, I don't know, I don't want to work with a coach can't afford a coach, I just want to do it myself and learn to lift and make progress, but I'm not motivated.
Dr. Eric Helms 30:20
Yeah. So first, I just want to say that absolutely, you can make this thing work without a coach. And when we think about self determination theory, you know, there's relatedness doesn't need to be a coach, it just means that part of the community, feeling like you're understood being acknowledged, kind of no persons in Ireland, yada, yada, yada. A lot of respect to this the psychology there you like that?
Philip Pape 30:41
No, no, it's very important community isn't.
Dr. Eric Helms 30:44
It is the yatta yatta yatta didn't quite give it the the gravity of intended. Competence is essentially feeling you're getting better at something over time, like when we get frustrated, as we feel like we're putting forth effort, but nothing's changing, right. And that makes you want to quit. So you can very clearly see how that's a threat to, to sticking with something and then finally, autonomy that the goals are pursuing our hero. And none of that requires having a coach. But you can use that as checklist. And then also, like you introduced another really cool model that is often used in understanding the pursuit of health behaviors, or not the pursuit of health behaviors, or the cessation of health behaviors is the Combi model, like you said, and that is exactly what you said competence, which lines up very much with the SDT model opportunity, which I think is very complementary to the self, the stt model. So determination theory is understanding that, yeah, like, if you want to have a community, but you live in a very remote area, and you don't have an internet access, or don't have you like, or you're really not good with technology, you don't have the opportunity to develop relatedness very, very easily. Right? Or if you want to, you know, I watched the documentary or the new the, the real life Hollywood story of the Williams sisters and their father coaching, like, if you want to get into tennis, but you live in, you know, like an inner city, when you don't have a lot of money, that's going to be harder to do than then if you live in the suburbs, right. So those types of things, it helps explain some of the realities related to self determination theory. So you can self identify those things. A coach should also pay attention to those things. So capability, opportunity, and the M, which I'm blanking on at the moment, motivation, motivation, thank you, which is why I forgot it because it's get the CORE Center of STP STP explains all of that. So that's where the link to. So when you look at the con V model, someone might have the capability and the opportunity to do something. But if they're not actually interested, and they don't, they're autonomous desires not to do something, or any other element of it is not actually leading to them having the motivation, which doesn't mean like the group X instructor yelling at you, but like the motive to do something, I don't have a why I don't want to do this, it doesn't matter. You know what resources or ability you have to do something, you just want to do it. I think back to when I was running track in high school, I just did not like running the foreigner meter, even though I was reasonably good at it. And I made up a pretty solid four by 14. And I just did it because I didn't want to let the team down. But as soon as I get out of high school, I never run a foreigner meter again. You know, right. So
Philip Pape 33:30
you're talking about an incentive. So if you're a professional athlete, your incentive might be millions of dollars. And like you said, Yeah, okay.
Dr. Eric Helms 33:36
Well, interestingly enough, the strongest incentive is actually not the pay, although I've never been paid a million dollars to do anything. So that might make me change. My perspective on this theoretical construct is actually intrinsic motivation. You know, I would say that competing in bodybuilding is a lot harder than running the foreigner meters, even though they're running the four meters is very hard. But because I have a strong intrinsic drive to do it, and I get something out of it, I will keep doing it. And extrinsic motivators are at best things that support that or add on to it or is the cherry on top of the cake. But at worst when they supplant that when you start doing it purely for the win for the trophy, or for the million dollars, you find yourself just feeling like I just don't have the same drive. It's not like it used to be I'm doing this like a job. It feels like a job now. And that's something you want to avoid at all costs. And it is easy with the reward structure of sport, when competitive desire sometimes supplant our initial process oriented drive for those things to get subverted. So it actually takes effort and in purposeful thought to hold on to an intrinsic drive to do something while you're also pursuing extrinsic outcomes. Easy example was the athlete who has their best showing ever best performance ever, but places lower just because the field was more challenging, but they feel like a failure. You know, they did everything right and If they were not competing, and they're just going to the gym and looking at their logbook, they're like I crushed it. But because they got ranked, you know, that whole Comparison is the thief of joy, that actually turned it on its head. And now they are not as motivated to do what they love doing, which can be can be tragic if it leads to burnout, but being able to hold those two things, appreciate the progress you've made, the place where you're at your commitment to something, and have the pursuit of excellence, but then also have a competitive goal and outcome and say, hey, I want to do better. Where am I at realistically is it is hard, and a coach can also help with that. So to answer your question, the Combi model is great, you can assess the opportunity, you can assess the motivation, and that kicks you back up to SDT. It's like a flowchart. And then you can also assess, you know, competence or capability, which are kind of one of the same. And that creates this ecosystem, if you're self coached of where am I at? And what do I need to work on? What do I need to identify what resources do I need to connect myself with. And another piece that's not connected to any of this, but just advice I have for self coached individuals is report into yourself, it's gonna feel weird. But get a spreadsheet, have a plan, and then record a message as if you had a coach on a weekly or bi weekly basis, will write an email, and you can even send it to yourself. And this is something that makes sense. If you have coached before, if you're just an athlete, this is gonna sound weird. But for someone who has used this coaching model for others, it puts you in a certain frame of mind, and allows you to be a little more objective. You go okay, what would I do with this person if their name was not their account, and they said they did X, Y, and Z. And you can be more objective about what might be the best decision. So it's kind of like a little Jedi mind trick on yourself to be the same type of coach you can be for others for yourself, which is generally quite hard, because you're so emotionally close to
Philip Pape 36:52
decisions you're making. And you have to have the knowledge and tools, like you're sharing here to even know to do that. But I do have a friend who kind of has a ranking system for multiple areas of his life, you know, relationships, fitness, and so on and kind of coaches themselves and then reports add on to it to it with a group of other men that he talks to. So that's kind of the relatedness part. So you had me a flowchart You had me at Jedi mind trick now I'm wondering, Eric, your personal routine, like how do you right now? What is the the big motivator for you? Is it the competition? Is it yourself? What is it?
Dr. Eric Helms 37:27
Yeah, I'm I'm very solid in in, in what I'm about. And my best guess is my future, it's very hard to predict who I will be at 65. But having been doing this for now, my first comp competitive season was oh seven and bodybuilding. And oh six in powerlifting. I started lifting in oh four. So I'm coming up on two decades of lifting and loving it. And having that relationship change in my meaning and wise change and becoming more aware. I think I'm pretty bought in intrinsically. And I don't think that's going to change. I suspect I will be getting on stage as an M one competitor, but also m two and M three in the future. And just doing it to see being the best version of myself at any given time. And that makes sense to me. And I look forward to it. But because of that I'm allowing myself to be able to lean a little more into my competitive side. So one of my my goals, not my main goal, but one of the goals I have this year is to try to get my WMV F pro card, and something that wasn't a goal in prior years. But it's been something I've thought about for a long time. My first introduction to Natural Bodybuilding was I was a test judge at a show in 2006. That was a WMV F show and my first time I learned like, oh, Natural Bodybuilding, it's a thing. And I was like, Oh, this is cool. I want to compete in this. And it was Rodney hilarious show in Georgia when my wife was still stationed in the Air Force Rodney Hilaire is a multiple time, late 90s, early 2000s WNBA F pro champ, and the heavyweight division won world titles in the heavyweight class. And, and yeah, in Augusta, Georgia, are making around the area, I can't recall exactly where he had the show. And I got to see these competitors. And ever since then I've like oh, so a good goal would be to get my WNBA pro card, which is probably at this stage in Natural Bodybuilding, the hardest professional status to get and you know, I haven't got it yet. I've gotten pro qualified and smaller organ, a smaller organization back in my third season. So it's something that means a lot to me. And then in turn with that, then competing as a pro at the highest stage worlds is kind of like those are my final bosses that might change. Like if I do decently well at Worlds as a pro. And I'm like, let's see how far I can take this. You know, like, I'll go wherever my body will let me go. But I am noticing that the gains are coming harder and harder to come by at this stage, which I don't think it's an age thing, but I think it is I have been lifting for 20 years thing and I may be closer to the ceiling that I'd like to admit.
Philip Pape 39:57
Yeah, no, I would love to be there someday fortune Only fortunately for me, I started lifting about three years ago and still a lot on the table to go after, as are a lot of my listeners who want to understand how to do that how to. So you've been doing it for this many years. First First question is, would you go back and tell your younger self to do it differently? And then second, what is right now having written the muscle strength pyramids, and all these different ways to program and everybody's individual different levels of volume? Still? What are the principles and the bedrock of just the basic programming for a new lifter? Who actually does want to prioritize both strength and size?
Dr. Eric Helms 40:33
Hmm, yeah. So the first thing, what would I tell myself is that just because you've never been injured, and you've never been a little overweight, doesn't mean they can't happen, you young, skinny person, and perhaps plan for those things. But you don't know what you don't know. Because I did have a fair number of lower back injuries, just from kind of not thinking about what I was doing in my lifting early on, which set me out a good bit. And then after my first season, I didn't think at all about there being any I figured I would, I'm really, really hungry. That's fine. I'll eat a lot. And I'll get back to my offseason weight and that's it. But I actually gained like 44 pounds in three months, and then spent most of my next offseason, like dieting off that after dieting, which is less than ideal. So anyway, you know, just kind of tell tell me some things that are coming down to then like around that corner, there'll be monsters was essentially what I would tell myself, and then I let the rest sorted out, because I kind of like where I'm at. But I wouldn't have minded not getting, I don't know, it's tough to say like, I don't think three would be around if I didn't have those things.
Philip Pape 41:37
But have you had to have all those experiences? Yeah,
Dr. Eric Helms 41:39
I did. Yeah. So Yeah, take that, for what it's worth.
Philip Pape 41:43
You know, it's funny, you say that, because I can really tell a little bit because when I when I started lifting, and a lot of it was based on your stuff, and reading, you know, Andy Morgan, right, who you co wrote the author with, and are co authors with, and I kind of neglected the new drip nutrition, half of that. And also gained quite a bit of weight on I don't know whole milk and whatever I wanted to eat, you know, to, but but unless you go through that process, you don't realize that on one hand, it does help with the lifts. And on the other hand, well, now you need to learn about nutrition.
Dr. Eric Helms 42:13
Yeah, having the experience I had with nutrition and being someone who grew up skinny and never even thought about I just ate, you know, it's like whatever, the first time having body image dissatisfaction and feeling like I wasn't in control of my own eating, that gave me a window into something that a lot of people deal with in our in our society, unfortunately, and which gave me the drive to then learn more about it. And now a significant chunk of what I do as a researcher, and a significant part of my part of my writing is, you know, talking about what is sometimes been considered the elephant in the room in the bodybuilding community, which is, you know, body image dissatisfaction and disordered eating patterns, if not full blown eating disorders. And that's a common thing in sport, especially weight class, restricted sport and physique sport even more so. So, you know, helping people kind of recapture some of that control in a healthy way is, is what I do. So anyway, a bit of an aside. So your second question, if I, if I remember correctly, was, what is my basic advice for early stage or late stage novices early stage intermediates, they want to pursue both strength and hypertrophy? Yes. Yeah. So yeah, first thing I would advise is, do do some work to figure out what your minimum effective dose is. Some of the research we have would suggest it is probably you know, one to five hard sets that are specific on the lifts you care about for getting stronger. And that's easily work into workable into a program English. And the way I'm currently doing, it could be somewhat of a model, where one to three times per week on the squat, the bench and the deadlift, I'm working up to a heavy single, this is a single I probably couldn't do a second rep with but that I don't feel so unsure of that I need a spotter. If your experience level is not such where you can be that precise, get a spotter or just be a little bit lighter, the heaviest, you're comfortable without a spotter and certainly going to be sufficiently heavy enough to drive strength.
Philip Pape 44:13
So this would be this would be like a 90% 90. Maybe 95%. Yeah,
Dr. Eric Helms 44:17
yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay. Now the thing is, for folks who've only been added a couple years, just do this, doing this will change what that number is sometimes even week to week, if you're used to doing say five or something like that. The reason why the minimum effective dose can be quite effective is because these specific stimulus is a more potent stimulus, right? So you might find yourself starting to do these singles and every week you can add five pounds to inhibit the the same feeling of the same percentage, which is a good thing when you're getting stronger. So yeah, I would typically recommend you can do that. And then for your back off work, it doesn't necessarily have to be the same movement. So you could do a single at a squat and then move on to a leg press for you backoff work, if you happen to be well built for a squat, you could then move into your hypertrophy work. So these, these top singles are a really useful tool to get good at the skill of the lift. And then to actually do the hypertrophy work, you can do movements that are a little more suited towards bodybuilding. Not that the deadlift, the squat, and the bench aren't great builders of muscle is that they also tend to come with, you know, costs associated with them. Yeah, they're more stressful. Mentally, it's harder to work up to a heavy set of five on a squat than it is on a leg press for most people. And if you want to have a you want to modulate you're stressed down mental or physical. Or if you have joint pain, where you can only do so much volume on a thing like you brought up earlier shoulders and benchpress. This gives you a lot of flexibility, you know, you can do your top single on bench shoulder start to get a little niggly like, that's good, move over and do some some cable flyes or something like that. So
Philip Pape 45:56
this is a really good concept to sit with, because I hear it all the time. And I'm always talking to all my 40 Something friends, you know, we have little aches and pains from lifting. These are really good concepts, you know, one being top setback offset, right, the other being going to support supportive or accessory movement, rather than over stressing on on the max reps for that first movement. Good, really good advisor just wanted to sit with that let people soak it in.
Dr. Eric Helms 46:22
Absolutely. And kind of the way I see it is for strikes, specifically, there's a hierarchy of what is like useful, productive time. And the specific movement itself, you know, without any other context is your best bet at improving that specific movement. But there are costs associated with it, you can only do so much of it, especially at that heavy load. And then from there you kind of you can, it's useful to have schema for what are the different exercises for So a common mistake you see is someone in a strength phase, or they're going to do tricep pushdowns, or doing heavy sets of six to eight, like well on the strength phase. So all my movements, I'm just doing lower rep. That's a reasonable thing to do. But then you have to think, Okay, well, why am I doing a tricep push down, it's probably not for direct transfer of strength to a benchpress. Right? I mean, bench press, you're lying down on your back, you've got a bar on your hands, you're trying to be tight and arch a little bit, a tricep push down, you're standing up, it's a cable, your hands are way closer together. It's a single joint movement, there's no coordination with your your shoulders and chest, you know you're stabilizing yourself at standing. So there's going to be next to zero transfer of actual skill. The reason we're doing tricep pushdown is because trying to increase the cross sectional area of our triceps so that there's more contractile tissue so that when we bench, we're probably able to produce more force. So it's this is a long game, right? So what's the best rep range for you to do a tricep push down is the real question. And a six to eight bothers your elbow, but I got to do X, I'm going to strike face shadow do 15 to 20 reps, that's fine, you know, because we know from the data on hypertrophy, and so long as the effort is there, approximately to failure, if you will, that, you know moderate reps or high reps are going to be roughly equivalent on a set set basis. For most people. Your mileage may vary. But I wouldn't start with the assumption that you're, you know, a special snowflake who responds better to high reps than low reps or vice versa. Unless you have good personal data, you're most likely to be someone who is going to get the same bang for your buck if the RTR is similar when you're doing 12 or sixes, right. So that's one thing to consider that the movements that are there to produce hypertrophy, hypertrophy will help strength, but they don't need to be done in such a specific narrow confines that you typically see in some of the quote unquote, power building programs. Yeah,
Philip Pape 48:37
yeah, no, that's, that's good, that's good as well. And even alternating between those rep ranges to take the stress off, right and rotating. So that's all really good before, I know, we only have 10 minutes left. So I wanted to get to like one or two other topics real quick. Let's do it. And the nutrition we covered nutrition a little bit, there's a friend of mine, he's a fellow coach, shout out to Dustin Lambert. For this one. There's kind of I don't know if it's a debate or just, you know, as always, there's there's camps with different things when it comes to plant versus animal protein. And whether one is whether one is more beneficial than the other. And of course, you have to look at the context and the goal right is are we talking body composition? Are we talking strength, cardiovascular health, hypertrophy, and so on. So you can cherry pick made analysis like there was one I found my limb at all 2021 That showed a slight benefit for animal protein for lean mass secretion, but no difference in strength. Anyway, that's just one of many. So what is the evidence tell us about the differences between animal and plant protein in terms of outcomes, not just proxy measures, which is another thorny area, right, but real human outcomes? Is there a rule of thumb that works for most people like you know, get a certain amount of grams protein from plants for overall health and nutrients and the rest of them whatever you want, or, you know, what are your thoughts on this?
Dr. Eric Helms 49:51
I liked how you just framed up there at the end because in reality, we don't eat animal and plant proteins. We eat animals and plants, right. And it's very difficult in these analyses to tease out whether it is the food that contains the amino acids, or whether it is and the nutrients associated with those foods, or whether it is the specific, you know, like, like amino acid in them. And I can tell you that when it comes down to a very reductionist take on protein, it shouldn't make any difference at a certain with certain caveats. So the reductionist view of why animal proteins are typically better, or animal source proteins are typically better than plant source is because they generally have a more complimentary, essentially amino acid profile, they have higher amounts of Leucine, they're not quote unquote, missing or low in any specific essential amino acid. So is this as a random example, pea protein, very robust in branched chain amino acids, high leucine content relatively comparable to way, but if I recall correctly, it's relatively low in myth union, which is one of the other essential amino acids. So it's a problem, right. But again, we don't eat proteins, we eat foods. So it is very rare that you will find a vegetarian or a vegan, who has a pea protein shake, post workout, but then doesn't have any other protein sources have any meaningful amount or sufficient amount of protein by the end of the day. So that shortfall of methionine is not a problem, when they're also having rice and beans, chickpeas, and all the other foods that they're consuming in a day. So you could ask the question, all right, well, if these various different plant based proteins are, you know, you know, not not that high and certain essential amino acids, that means the overall quality is lower. And you could probably make a mechanistic argument like you alluded to that, yeah, when we compare like just the protein quality, you generally see a hierarchy. Not always, but generally, were plant based proteins are a little lower in terms of their amino acid composition and digestibility scores compared to animal proteins. But the differences are not as extreme as most people think. And we're extremely efficient at extracting everything out of the food we eat. And most importantly, is when you look at Applied outcomes is that when you're consuming the ranges of protein that we recommend for sport, decent kind of threshold of where you start to maximize the benefits of protein is right around 8.7 grams per pound, or 1.6 grams per kilogram. We actually have studies now on vegans lifting weights compared to omnivores, where they're consuming at least this amount, and in the periods of time studied, you know, typical training study six to 12 weeks, we don't see any significant difference between groups. And now that's kind of like addressing the typical argument against, like, you know, the vegan protein and the thing, oh, you need to eat a little more something like that. The argument for is generally Hey, you know, we look at these studies on vegetarians and vegans population level, we cherry pick certain meta analyses, and hey, these vegetarian or vegan diets look healthier. They seem to have better health outcomes than omnivorous diets that include meat. But when you start to control for a lot of the confounders and the covariates, which is really difficult to do, because you don't get to really experimentally control these things. So there's observational research, which is highly valuable, but it has some limitations, you start to see that the picture that gets gets painted, is that vegetarians in general, are more health conscious people. If they're adopting a specific way of eating, they're less likely to smoke, they're less likely to drink, they're more likely to be active. And when you control for those factors, all cause mortality starts to be very similar. So when you have comparable omnivores and comparable vegetarians, like you specifically look at omnivores, who exercise, don't smoke, don't drink, a lot of those things go away. And I think the best overall big picture interpretation of the data we have is that a plant based diet is beneficial for you, rather than an omnivorous diet being automatically a negative for you. That's not to say there aren't some things in some omnivore omnivorous diets that have maybe a negative signal in the noise. Like if you were to eat a whole lot of processed meats, or like charred food, or trans fats, or a very high diet very high in saturated fats, you could run into some some problems that would be of course greatly mitigated by the fact that you're exercising and doing all these other things that I discussed. But there's no reason you can't do those things. And also be an omnivore. Like, I'd be hard pressed to see how a, you know, like a pescatarian wouldn't be in as good or a better position than than a vegan, you know, because you've kind of avoided all of those things. But then you've got a you know, the end the protein quality might be a little higher on average, and they're also getting probably more DHA in their diet. So, you know, if we really wanted to kind of play like the health Olympics, you start splitting hairs but at that point, once you start to kind of play the health Olympics, we are talking about so small differences that they don't matter in the long run, and you've ticked all the boxes. So, so long as you're consuming complementary proteins as a vegan throughout the course of the day, not necessarily the same meal, and you're hitting that threshold of protein intake, and you are lifting weights, you're probably good to go. And likewise, if you have a omnivorous diet, but it's heavily plant based, you're probably good to go.
Philip Pape 55:18
Yeah, and that's a good one that was actually the one I was really getting at was the idea that a lot of omnivores don't eat very many plants, let's just be honest. And so this could be a little bit of incentive to say, well, you know, getting some some of your protein from your plants gets you to eat more plants. Anyway,
Dr. Eric Helms 55:33
one recommendation for everyone is go to Omar ECFC YouTube channel, and I want you to watch any video you want. And then just scroll to the last 30 seconds and take that message to heart. That's all I have to say. Okay. He says, Eat your vegetables, eat your vegetables, eat your vegetables, the end of every single video.
Philip Pape 55:50
That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Omar is great. Yeah, if I have you on again, we have to dig into iron culture stuff, because I got so many questions there. I'm trying to get him on the show. And I don't know, maybe you can give them a little nudge.
Dr. Eric Helms 56:03
Good luck, Omar in podcaster. There's one podcast, he does
Philip Pape 56:08
worry a shirt from his company, you know, send him a video. But yeah. So yeah, what was it? Oh, and then the confounders. That's another thing you mentioned. Because the like when you look at diet soda studies, or seed oil studies, you have that similar thing where if you separate out people have overall healthy dietary patterns, even though they consume those things, they tend to be just fine. And you kind of have to separate that. All right, I know you have to go. I have one second. The last question before, before I go. And that is, what one question Did you wish I had asked you? And what is your answer?
Dr. Eric Helms 56:40
Oh, man, that's a tough one. I think you did a really good job. And you asked me a lot of good questions. Honestly, there, you did a good job. And like we kept it high level, like you mentioned off camera. You touched on self determination theory, people who are coached and not coached, which I think was great. You asked me what I would have done different. And when we talked about vegetarian stuff, we got to both sides of the coin. So honestly, I'm gonna be that that like shitty hosts who are guests, who doesn't tell the host anything useful for that question. I think you did a really good job.
Philip Pape 57:11
No, that's, that's, that's a compliment. So I appreciate it. That's fine. So where can listeners learn more about you?
Dr. Eric Helms 57:18
Yeah. So first off, thank you for having me on, Philip. It's been great. This was a lovely discussion. If people want to learn more about what I do. The good one stop shop is 3d muscle journey.com. That is the number three, the letter deed and muscle journey. From there, you can find links to a lot of the things you talked about in the intro, my books, the muscle and strength pyramids, my monthly Research Review for people who want to not just nerd out once in my books, but stay up to date with the monthly nerding. That's myself, Lauren cleanses, simple Dr. microdose, as well as Dr. Eric Trexler. And we review research that comes out on a monthly basis relevant to building your your strength, or you know, manipulating your physique. We really enjoy that. And then the only other things that aren't linked through the various things, you can click on a 3d muscle journey.com is iron culture, which you you know, have talked about so generously which, which I appreciate. And if you want to find all the appearances I do off of my own platforms, like this lovely podcast, follow me at helm's 3d MJ On Instagram where I share all the stuff that I do like that. And on that note, Philip, when you've got any media related to this share with me, I'd be more than happy to post
Philip Pape 58:21
we'll do is I'll put all those links in there. If people want to know whether they should chill their hands before they lift. That's one of the questions that are answering the latest mass review. And, man, it's been a pleasure having you on. Thanks for having this conversation. And I know the listeners will get a ton of value from this, Eric. Thank you.
Dr. Eric Helms 58:37
It's a pleasure. Thank you.
Philip Pape 58:40
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 71: How to Achieve Peak Performance and Wellness with Dustin Lambert
Today we’re diving into how to optimize your health and performance with Dustin Lambert, a fellow nutrition coach I met through the Wits & Weights Facebook group and our coaching cert connection with NCI. Dustin will share challenges and strategies for fat loss as you get leaner, the pros and cons of bulking and cutting versus “maingaining,” and unique issues to consider when you have a metabolic disorder or autoimmune disease.
Today we’re diving into how to optimize your health and performance with Dustin Lambert, a fellow nutrition coach I met through the Wits & Weights Facebook group and our coaching cert connection with NCI. Dustin will share challenges and strategies for fat loss as you get leaner, the pros and cons of bulking and cutting versus “maingaining,” and unique issues to consider when you have a metabolic disorder or autoimmune disease.
He’ll also tell us the optimal protein and sodium intake for strength and hypertrophy, and the impact of red meat, saturated fat, and cardio on health outcomes and performance. And finally we’ll get into blood work, tendinitis, wearable fitness trackers, and AI chatbots like ChatGPT.
Dustin Lambert is an NCI certified nutrition coach in the Houston area. He’s also a strength and conditioning coach. Dustin specializes in helping people manage metabolic disorders and autoimmune disease, correct their blood lipid profiles, prevent cardiovascular disease, lose fat, and restore health using barbells and periodized nutrition programming. Dustin is also a full-time husband and father, part-time Hot Rod builder, and once a Marine always a Marine.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:30] Dustin's purpose and backstory
[7:12] Measuring coaching success and impact
[9:18] How fat loss becomes harder the leaner you get
[14:14] Diet breaks, refeed, eating carbs, and tracking while on break
[16:14] Pros and cons of bulk/cut vs maingaining?
[21:17] Unique challenges when training for fat loss when a client has disorders
[26:54] How much protein do you really need for strength and hypertrophy?
[29:36] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[32:05] What are the effects of red meat and saturated fat on health outcomes vs strength and hypertrophy?
[36:43] How much sodium do you really need as a recreational lifter?
[42:46] Programming for tendinopathy.
[46:28] What are the effects of cardio on muscle mass and strength?
[49:13] The limitations of wearable trackers and how to properly use them.
[53:08] How people can use chat GPT to learn how to think independently and develop their own opinions and views?
[57:40] Outro
Episode resources:
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https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
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Transcript
Dustin Lambert 00:00
So cuts and bulks are good at keeping people focused as far as the nutrition and the diet are concerned because you have a short term goal, and you're gonna work really, really hard to get to that and that goal changes a lot. So that keeps people a little bit more focused on on the long term thing.
Philip Pape 00:19
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we're diving into how to optimize your health and performance with Dustin Lambert. He's a fellow nutrition coach that I met through the Wits & Weights Facebook group and our coaching cert connection with NCI. Dustin is going to share challenges and strategies for fat loss as you get leaner. The pros and cons of bulking and cutting versus main gaining and unique issues to consider when you have a metabolic disorder or autoimmune disease. He will also tell us the optimal protein and sodium intake for strength and hypertrophy, the impact of red meat saturated fat and cardio on health outcomes and performance. And we may even get into things like bloodwork tendinitis, wearable fitness trackers, AI chat bots, like chat, GBT Dustin Lambert is an NCI certified nutrition coach in the Houston area. He's also a strength and conditioning coach. And he specializes in helping people manage metabolic disorders, and autoimmune disease, correct their blood lipid profiles, prevent cardiovascular disease, lose fat and restore health using barbells and periodized nutrition programming. Dustin is also full time husband and father part time hot rod builder and Once a Marine, always a Marine. Alright, Dustin, thanks so much for coming on the show, man. Yeah, thanks for having me on Phillip. Cool. So you and I met through Facebook, you know, I think I invited you to my group, the Wits & Weights community, and you've been super engaged. And we've been chatting back and forth over the months where like, let's just have you on because you're an expert, you've got a lot of cool specialties, I'll say in your coaching approach. Some of it alluded to in the intro. Now we're both certified coaches with NCI, we both love barbell training periodization using data optimizing your health, given all that, okay, but the big question, I want to know, what is your purpose here? What is your purpose as a man and as a coach with all of this? And why is that important to you? Oh,
Dustin Lambert 02:43
yeah, right out of the gate. Man. So my, my purpose as a man, so going through all of this, and, and starting to help people get healthy, and address these, you know, kind of major medical issues that they're having, has really made me take a step back and kind of appreciate my my family a little bit more. And realize, you know, a lot of the reasons why I started lifting and why I started eating healthier. And getting into all of this was because, you know, I wanted to I wanted to be able to play with my daughter. So I had, you know, my wife and I had my daughter at a little bit of a later age, not too too late. But you know, I'm probably going to be in my five zeros when she graduates high school. So, you know, I want to be around for that I want to be active and I want to be a part of her life I you know, I don't I don't want to be relegated to the to the recliner. So going through all of that has made me take a step back. Remember why I started all of this, and, you know, reevaluate some of the things I'm doing in my life and how I, how I manage my days and and just try and do more things with my family.
Philip Pape 04:02
Yeah, and I can relate so much to that. I think we're probably similar in age and parenting age as well. My kids just turned 11 At night, and I'm 42. So that puts me in somewhat that ballpark, maybe not quite. But But But I understand, right? Like, it's these these things in life that really matter. And as you get older, it's no longer about the the silly things we pursued in our 20s let's be honest and right and which, you know, you had to pursue as a young guy trying to build things and people and whatnot. But the idea that you're creating a legacy and you want to be physically there, which translates to everything else meant, you know, your mental and emotional health and everything else. So given that to where you are now, how did how did you lead to that over the last, you know, let's say since your 20s or 30s How did you get here?
Dustin Lambert 04:48
Yeah, so I was I was always really active. I played a lot of sports in high school. I mean, maybe not a lot, but you know, I definitely wasn't not doing something. So it was always active and And when I got out of high school, I went right into the Marines and that's a super active, you know, field to be in. When I left the Marines. I went to school, and learned mechanics and all that stuff. And I kinda let the physical pursuits go. And that just kind of carried on for a while, I met my wife and we got married. And then, you know, one day we both kind of just decided like, Hey, man, we need to, we need to do something. You know, we need to get back in shape. When you start eating, right, we started doing some videos. I don't know if it was Beachbody or something like that. We started something like p90x something. I don't remember. But yeah, so I was doing like rose with the five gallon water jug. And yeah. So we started that. And somewhere along the way, I started listening to a political podcast. And the guy on there kept referencing more crypto starting strength, more grip, Atos starting strength. And so one day, I was like, Man, I'm gonna lift this guy up. So I put it into the old Google thing and picked up some YouTube videos. And I watched the first one. And I heard him talking to think he was on a podcast interview. And he was talking about, you know, everything that's in the starting strength book, and I just kind of like the light bulb went on. And I've always been a really skinny guy. I'm what we in the biz call a hard gainer. So as he started laying out this path, I was like, Ah, this is the information that I've been looking for my whole life. So yeah, so, you know, I got under the squat bar the first the first time and have been doing it for the better part of 10 years now. Yeah, it's been a minute.
Philip Pape 06:52
Yeah, yeah, man, I mean, Barb, once we will discover the barbells. And I don't care who you are, how old you are, what you've done in the past. I mean, I've seen it with my clients I've seen, you know, women who are 50 have never picked up a barbell, and they're open to it. And they do it. It's like, just everything changes. I mean, it's not just physical, right? It's mental. And, you know, I wonder now that you're now that you're a coach, right? You're applying a lot of these principles and philosophies that you have, including with the barbell training, you know, how do you how do you know that's the right thing to do? And how do you measure the success and impact right? We're NCAA coaches, part of what we learned is, you know, connection based coaching, making an impact. How do you measure that?
Dustin Lambert 07:30
Man? That's, I think that's, that's one of the hardest things for me is gauging how much impact I'm having in someone's life. I definitely am doing this to make an impact. I, you know, I'm not trying to get rich. So, yeah,
Philip Pape 07:47
to clear up, man, because Mark, right from
Dustin Lambert 07:52
Newport that way? Yep. Lots of free coaching going on. Yeah, so how to gauge that, I don't know, I really, I think I try and help my clients. Continually, month to month and quarter to quarter and year to year, I have a lot of long term clients. And I think it, it helps to, to remind them just how far they've come from day one. And so, you know, you're, you're a starting strength guy. So you have the logbooks, I always have people start out with a logbook, or they have the online app that we use, and you know, they're whenever they're feeling hard or down or wondering if this is the right direction, or whatever I say, let's go back to day one. Let's remember where you were.
Philip Pape 08:42
Good. Yeah, that's, that's the facts, right? That's where you're in know where you are. Which is why which is why we collect data, because, you know, there are people that for whatever reason, chide the, the use of data, whether it's food tracking, or tracking your workouts or what have you. And, you know, I don't know why maybe maybe the inconvenience of it, or because it's uncomfortable or something different, or people don't like data, whatever it is, but once you do, I mean, it pales in comparison to not doing that and what what you fail to achieve when you don't do that. That's just my opinion. So anyway, let's let's jump into the topics. Because I know we wanted to talk about some fun things like you and I lately have been going through fat loss phases in parallel, right? Yeah, yeah. So on yours. Are you done with it yet?
Dustin Lambert 09:28
I am trying to squeeze out the last remaining bit so I have a cruise. We're going to Mexico at the end of end of the month. So I didn't get my goal. So I'm on a little bit of a break right now. And I'm going to try and squeeze a few more weeks out of it, but excuse me,
Philip Pape 09:45
all right. Make sure to get that last week or two right to get the smack Yeah, fill it up. So it's funny because so you're you're more of a you know, you're stronger bigger guy than me based on your experience where we are, you know, not comparing, I'm just saying that's a fact. So For me losing losing fat now, was was kind of easy. But I'm also not trying to get to that like sub 10%, or around 10% body fat because I need to go build more mass. But for people who are thinking of losing fat want to lose fat currently trying to lose fat, with all the challenges that breaks, right? And I've talked about a million times on this podcast, we don't have to, like lay out all the challenges. I think the big ones are metabolic adaptation, you know, hunger, loss of strength. But what's your take on this? Why does it become harder? Maybe in the different phases? Right, initially, maybe it's not so hard. But once you get into it, and then as you said, trying to squeeze that last bit? Why did it get so hard? And then how can you keep making progress to finish it up? Yeah, so
Dustin Lambert 10:43
it gets harder. I mean, simply, it comes down to the metabolic adaptations. And also, as you lose body mass body tissue, it just simply doesn't require as much energy as it did before to go through day to day. So as you as you drop weight, your TDE is gonna go down despite how active you may want to be. So, so that is a continuing challenge. And I really liked the analogy, I can't remember where I heard it from, but weight loss or fat loss is kind of like wringing out a wet towel. And the first time you take that talent, you dunk it under water, and it comes back out, it's fully saturated. The first time you go to get water out of there, it's really easy. And it kind of it just doesn't matter what you do to it, you can twist it, you can spin it around, you can squeegee it between your thumb and your forefinger, and you're gonna get a lot of water out of that thing the first time. And I think that's probably most people's experience with fat loss or weight loss in general. And that can lead people to think that they know more about it than they actually do. But, yeah, so it really does come down to the metabolism and in how that thing, you know how it gets harder and harder and harder, the closer and closer you get to being whatever your goal is.
Philip Pape 12:05
Yeah, it is it is it. And of course, I'm playing devil's advocate, because I want to I want to hear your take on this as the expert. But is it the is it purely the hunger and the symptoms that come from that when you get further in? So where I'm going with that is you might start at a metabolism of let's say you burn 2500 calories, and so you want to burn, you want to lose a pound a week? So you're 500 calorie deficit, as you're eating 2000 calories? Most people were thinking hearing that or like, Yeah, that's fine. I would love to somebody would love to learn lose fat and 2000 and others are like, Yeah, that's fine. That's normal. And as you adapt, right, your metabolism drops and drops drops. And before long, you're maybe at 16, maybe at 1500, you know, you're starting to push that limit. Is that all is that what it comes down to is just our body is now like starved for resources. And we're also so hungry. Is that the main challenge? Are there other things involved?
Dustin Lambert 12:56
I think that's probably the main challenge that people fight against, you're definitely going to have some hormonal changes that are happening due to that, which is why we periodized our nutrition is so that we can, you know, have an exit strategy for all of that and come out of it and fix it. But yeah, from from my experience, and, you know, just dealing with this with clients, I think the biggest thing people deal with is hunger. Also the mental aspect of it. So as you, you know, the longer and longer you do it for the more and more plateaus, you start to see, the more challenging the thing becomes, you're not seeing the progress that you were in the beginning, you know, if you have, if you have a lot of weight to lose, you can drop 12 pounds in a week, you know, and you run that for 12 weeks, and now maybe it's two pounds. And that can be quite frustrating, and you don't understand why that's happening. Yeah, so
Philip Pape 13:53
you mentioned you mentioned multiple plateaus. You know, we use things like diet breaks and other other things to take that mental break, right? Because, like you said, it's mainly mental. We can't trick we can't trick or or over recover our metabolism like it is what it is. So even if you get back to where you were two weeks ago, it's just gonna come right back and adapt. What like what's your some of your favorite go twos when it comes to that? Is it taking diet breaks? Are there other strategies people might try so that they don't just fall off the rails and say, well, this isn't working anymore.
Dustin Lambert 14:25
I like diet breaks refeeds for some people and so I definitely try and and so if someone is utilizing, tracking, counting calories or macros or whatever, whatever method of restriction we're doing, I don't want them to stop that. Because you don't you don't want to get out of the habit. So we're just taking a break. We're not being we're not on hiatus. We're just kind of, you know, allowing you to get back in the game.
Philip Pape 14:55
Right? Yeah, it makes sense do so do they still track while taking a break or they also take is a break from tracking? No, they still track wants to break. Yeah, right? That makes sense. And this is a is app maintenance basically by upping the carbs. Is that your your main strategy for that? Or is there another approach?
Dustin Lambert 15:11
Yeah, so the carbs will come up mostly carbs. It depends on what somebody's craving. So sometimes people are, are, you know, Johnson for, I don't know, whatever chocolate or something like are, well, let's go, we'll go ahead and allow some fat in here. But I generally try and do bump up the carbs. That way, they start feeling a little bit better during their workouts. And they also start maybe seeing and feeling a little bit more pump from the lifting. And that can help adjust their attitude like, oh, no, actually, I'm starting to look pretty good.
Philip Pape 15:43
Yeah, especially if you drink that large glass of water before they left to right. Well, that's No, it's good that you mentioned not only the diet break itself, but also the the ability to maybe eat some indulgences are some things that you enjoy that you kind of avoid. You've been avoiding, you know, with that discipline, because we like to balance the lifestyle with the discipline, knowing that there's some compromises you have to make and fat loss. But like you said, Hey, if you haven't had that chocolate for four, six or eight weeks, and all of a sudden, you've got a little extra calories, and it is more fat. So what go for it, enjoy it kind of again, that mental side. All right, so you mentioned periodization. One form of periodization, that many people are familiar with is cuts and bolts, right? And some people don't like the terms, but whatever. You know, it's we all understand what we mean, right? Fat Loss versus building muscle. You know, I just finished my diet. So now means ready to build muscle, which I just love that side of it, right? Because it's a lot if you do it, right. It's a lot more of the year than losing fat. So what are you know, but some people say, Well, you shouldn't be switching back and forth. Always Can't you ever just maintain? What are the pros and cons of cuts and bulks versus maintaining or the word you threw in here? Main gaining, which implies like very lean gaining? I mean, what's your thoughts on all of this? Then what do you recommend them?
Dustin Lambert 16:59
Yeah, so I think as far as recommendations goes, it's going to come down to the individual and kind of maybe how I'm feeling initially, and you know, plans can always change, you can start one direction and somebody's like, I absolutely hate this. Alright, well, let's do it this other way. There's not just one way to do it. Yeah, so some pros and cons. So the the main gaining or I've heard it called gain taining to that can set can be a little bit easier. If you don't really like tracking, you don't really like counting stuff. You're kind of good at maybe limiting or moderating some unhealthier choices in your in your food, or maybe things that don't necessarily get you closer to your goal. And definitely, if you're so I think if you were, you know, starting a a strength training regimen, and you really had a plan to do this for nine months to a year or something like that, then main gaining may be a viable option for you. The pros, you know, those are the pros, the cons, the main gaining is that you really don't see a lot of progress happening very quickly. So So if, if just watching the number on the scale, go up slowly over time, or down. And really focusing on building strength or developing technique and your lifts. Or maybe you're a runner, and you're trying to, you know, go for a 10k or a marathon or something like that. And you're really focused on your athletic performance. That can that can be so I lost my train of thought there.
Philip Pape 18:52
Yeah, no, no, I get what you're saying. So your your point is you can't you really it doesn't maximize your progress when it comes to building muscle. So, but it could be a good alternative if you have other goals and yeah, maximize your progress. Yeah. So
Dustin Lambert 19:06
if you're if you're focused on your athletic performance, and not so much, really what you're seeing in the mirror, maintaining can be a good, a good tool to use there. So you're not you're not cutting your see strain yourself too short, doing too much at one time. Yeah. The cuts in the bulks, I think is probably better for somebody who's maybe, you know, two years or three years into their lifting journey. And you're really trying to develop a good physique or you're really trying to get a significant amount of body fat down in a short period of time. So cuts and bulks are good at keeping people focused as far as the nutrition and the diet are concerned because you have a short term goal. And you're going to work really, really hard to get to that. And that goal changes a lot. So that keeps people a little bit more You're focused on on the long term thing.
Philip Pape 20:03
Yeah, yeah, that's a great, that's a great perspective that, even though we don't want quick fixes for any of this stuff, we want to change our lifestyle, we have the long term, the ultimate goal is our health and all the things that we get for that health, like you mentioned with your kids, and being a father and so on. And that's, that's really what a lot of people want. At the same time. As humans, we have a terrible attention span, right, and we like to have quick wins. So, you know, it sounds like breaking it down to that shorter goal could be a really good motivator, breaking it down to even shorter goals, and that in terms of your habits, all of those things are really good strategies for for doing this, which is gives people hope, because I think a lot of people go through life, they're like, Well, I'm a little heavy on the scale, I'm just gonna need to go on a diet. And it's this, this on off switch, and there's not really any structure or drive to do it the right way. So okay, so the main gaining is good for some in some cases. But if you really want, you know, more efficient results in terms of physique, you may want to be going for a specific short term goal. I want to get into some of the things that make your coaching unique, you talk about metabolic disorders, autoimmune diseases, I have like an undifferentiated mixed connective tissue disease, which is autoimmune disease. And very interestingly, last year, after I had titrated, down a medication I take for that, I started to get swelling in my wrists and ankles, which is symptomatic of people who have rheumatoid arthritis sometimes get that right, and other autoimmune diseases. And man, it was just a huge disruption to my lifting, because you felt like you felt weak, weak in your grip, and in your feet, when everything else was strong. It's very odd thing. So I'm curious for you, what are the unique challenges clients face when trying to achieve fat loss with these kinds of disorders?
Dustin Lambert 21:50
Yeah, so I can't speak for everybody, but the the clients that I have that kind of tell me about the symptoms, and the challenges and all the things that they're facing. One of the biggest things across everything across all these diseases is the amount of fatigue and muscle soreness that people experience. And I know, you know, Gen pop, we like to say that I'm fatigued or whatever, but this is different it is it is not the general state of tiredness that people are experiencing from crappy jobs and junk sleep. I've I've had several clients tell me that what they are experiencing could be akin to climbing a mountain. So if you were to spend all day, mountain climbing, the amount of physical exhaustion, and just the the bone deep soreness, muscle soreness, joint, achy joints, all that stuff that that you would experience from that, that's what they go through on a daily basis. And sometimes that's lasts for weeks, months even. So that's, that's definitely a big challenge across all of them. That can be extremely challenging to program for as well. So, you know, those are challenges and all of it, you mentioned the medication. So a lot of people are on medications. And a lot of those medications that are addressing one part of their disease or disorder will often make it a little bit increased their risk for some other aspect of it. So like for metabolic syndrome, if somebody has high blood lipids, they might be put on a statin or something like that. And certain things can increase your risk of type two diabetes, which is you know, blood glucose is another part of that, which is kind of a thing you're trying to avoid.
Philip Pape 23:49
Same thing for the listener, right. metabolic disease being pre diabetes,
Dustin Lambert 23:53
pre diabetes, yeah. So you know, same thing for for blood pressure, they put on diuretics, or beta blockers, and those can increase your risk of type two diabetes. So sometimes there's a constant management of blood glucose, carbohydrate intake, protein intake. Starting to learn a lot about kronor nutrition. Just yeah, so it can be it can be absolutely nerve racking for for these people. And, you know, my heart just goes out to them every time they have to go through this stuff. So
Philip Pape 24:31
now, would you say I mean, would you say one of the the biggest challenges is, is on the lifting side with the ability to do certain movements, or is it nutrition or is it kind of it really depends.
Dustin Lambert 24:42
It kind of really depends. So if somebody's having a soreness or fatigue flare up, then you know, we have to pull back on the lifting and maybe modify whatever it is that they're doing, because they can't You know, I can't bend over today. I can't bend my knees. I can Do whatever you ever experience with your arms. So we may, you know, just have to modify stuff or eliminate lifts or whatever it is they're doing. And then, you know, the nutrition side of that is sometimes we may be in a fat loss phase, or they may have been working really hard to get to a fat loss phase. And then this flare up happens, and I'm kinda like, we're going to have to increase your calories so that you can deal with this. And that can can be a mental mental challenge for them to get through.
Philip Pape 25:33
Yeah, I bet I hear what you're saying I had a client with ulcerative colitis, same thing you just never know. And it would flare up and people have digestive issues, and people have all sorts of sort of ailments. So it's this is where having a coach can be really helpful. It sounds like because you can walk them through, you probably have a broad base of knowledge of strategies to say push through these or at least get around them so that you don't just give up right? Would you say that? Somewhat the sentiment there? Yeah. So
Dustin Lambert 26:01
I try to tell everybody, whenever we start a coaching relationship together, the first call will go over all this stuff, and I try to tell them, Listen, I'm not the guy on YouTube, I'm not the guy on the internet, who's going to tell you that we're curing stuff, at best, at best exercise and nutrition at this point in your life is going to be a management tool. And sometimes it's going to feel like we just spent the last three months, you know, spinning our wheels to just trying to prevent you from regressing. And that's exactly what it's going to be.
Philip Pape 26:36
You know, what, but which, which means the alternative would have been to be sedentary and worse off.
Dustin Lambert 26:41
Yeah. Yeah.
Philip Pape 26:43
That's important for people to hear. Yes. Like you said, there's no, there's probably no person on the planet that wouldn't benefit from some form of additional movement in some kind, right? Yeah. All right. So let's shift to one of the other topics, we wanted to talk about. Some of the nuts and bolts here, protein, let's, let's talk protein, I always love talking protein. So in the context of strength of hypertrophy, getting big and strong as what we're talking about how much protein is optimal? What are some common myths around the consumption of protein that you've dealt with? Yeah, so
Dustin Lambert 27:15
how much protein is optimal? So I know we have the magic number of one gram per pound of body weight. And I, I have come to not really like that number very much. So when we look to the science, and what the the studies are actually saying, I haven't seen one single study where that number is mentioned, it's always a range. Yes. And so it can be difficult for people also, to really try and consume that much protein. I mean, you have a you know, I have I have female clients who are five foot two, and 130 pounds, 140 pounds, something like that. And it's, you know, trying to get them to eat 140 pounds of protein, or 100 140 grams of protein per day, is really, really hard for them to do. So I think, I think what the science tells us is that, as far as gaining muscle or strength, we can be as low as point seven grams per pound. So I will often start people there. And as we progress as we move along, definitely as we go into fat loss phases, I'll titrate that number up to something that's very tolerable. So I kind of like, you know, the Christopher Gardner is the Stanford researcher.
Philip Pape 28:39
Yeah, I've heard him.
Dustin Lambert 28:41
So he has, people can look him up. But he has a he has a philosophy when he when he does these studies, and he does the low carb versus the high carb and all this stuff, and blah, blah, blah. And so he has a philosophy that I really like to implement, not for everything, but for some stuff, but like this protein, which is limbo, titrate quality. So limbo, meaning how low can can it go? So I'm putting that on myself? How low? Can I start this person on their protein intake to make them successful? How low can we go? Okay, so we'll start that point seven. And then you know, if that's too high, still, I have to lower my standards to meet them where they're at. And then once we meet that limbo, once we meet that lowest amount, then we titrate we start titrating up until we get to the point where I can't take it anymore, I cannot have any more protein. This is this is it, this is what I can do. And then we start focusing on the quality of that protein. Cool.
29:36
My name is Tony from a strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning and that's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to me One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and we'll help you out. Thanks.
Philip Pape 30:20
Yeah, I like that approach. I mean, it's not too different from from what I would do, and we've talked about, but you have that unique perspective with the limbo in that, you know, I tend to just say, hey, let's get let's shoot for the let's let's shoot for the higher number, knowing that it's a stretch goal, and then titrate, to get to that number of kind of keeping that goal in your brain and in your eyes. But I also have seen clients that just struggle, they just struggle, and it's like, what you're saying could be an extremely valuable tool for the practical lifestyle that somebody has, which is what we're trying to do here is work with real people who are trying to get this done. So yeah, if if you're listening, and you don't currently have enough protein, and you know, you need to get more protein, because you listen to Dustin and me and all these other folks. Think about what tool works for you. And if if you know if you're getting point for you want to get toward this point seven at least, and then just work from there. I've had clients the other opposite direction, just this week, I had one of my calls. And she's at like, one point for us just loves protein. But she's in a fat loss phase. And like, I'm having a little trouble with energy. I'm like, it's because it's because you're kind of trading off too much fat and carbs. So let's, let's go the other way, you know, but that's good that you mentioned that the one gram per pound, I agree is like even the guys that stronger by science, everyone else will say that you don't really have to be there. It's just maybe an average a stretch goal. It's an easy rule of thumb, all those things. Yeah, that's, that's good. That you mentioned that now can can people have too much protein?
Dustin Lambert 31:47
I don't know that you can really have too much protein. I think it's gonna be hard to do. But
Philip Pape 31:53
like the three, three grams per pound?
Dustin Lambert 31:55
Yeah. I don't think I would want to be in the same room with that person.
Philip Pape 32:03
Yeah, depends on where you're getting your protein to. Yeah. All right. So now let's talk let's talk about you mentioned the blood blood lipids preventing heart disease. You know, I know there's always there's always been a little controversy around saturated fats and blood lipids and cholesterol and all these things. Yeah, right. Just a little bit, right. And both are on all directions, right? We said we see especially going through, I was on paleo for I was on paleo. So you can treat these things like their programs. I ate paleo for years. And I was always in that crowd of like, you could eat however much saturated fat you want, you know, the cholesterol is meaningless, you know. And meanwhile, my cholesterol numbers are going up and up. So with with the on ongoing debate we have around red meat, saturated fat, what is their impact on health outcomes? What is their role in strength training, and muscle growth? And then what should people do?
Dustin Lambert 32:55
Okay, yeah, so maybe let's, we'll start with the pros for, for muscle growth and for athletic performance. So the pros is that red meat, I don't really know about saturated fat. But red meat definitely is a very nutrient dense food has a lot of good stuff in there a lot of stuff that you need, and depending on the individual, you may need to consume more of it, you may need to consume less of it. But as far as building muscle goes, I don't think there is you know that that kind of seems to be the undisputed champion other than whey protein. In the in the lifting world. The saturated fat
Philip Pape 33:38
before we go there, you mentioned Okay, some people need more, some people less are we talking about like an iron deficiency or something like
Dustin Lambert 33:44
that? Yeah. Yeah. So So iron deficiency, would it be one? B 12. So if you if you have a more vegetarian style of a diet and you are not focusing on the B 12, you're not, you know, that's just something not people are not tracking. Adding a little more protein in there may be something that I recommend to those individuals.
Philip Pape 34:09
So, or they could just start eating red meat. So vegetarians who listen Yeah, it's great if I just started eating red meat and
Dustin Lambert 34:16
on unbridled amounts of red meat. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Philip Pape 34:25
Yeah. Okay, sorry. So then saturated fat. Yeah, so saturated
Dustin Lambert 34:29
fat. Now, the saturated fat I really don't know about the, you know, nutrient density that versus other fats. But from just an anecdotal perspective, a saturated fat is associated with central adiposity. So fat around your midsection. And for me, I know that when I was much heavier, and my trunk circumference was bigger, I felt more stable, lifting heavier loads. So as my as my waist size has gone down, you know, even if I can lift the same amount, squat or deadlift or overhead press or whatever it is, I definitely don't feel as stable. And I don't feel like I can brace into my belt as much. So just anecdotally, you know, I think that's that for the saturated fat. And then for saturated fat always is going to come with the red meat. And so, again, anecdotally, I think there is just something about feeling more energetic and feeling better. So when we look to low carb communities, paleo and keto and carnivore, not stuff, that seems to be one of the the most common traits that people associate with red meat is just feeling better, having a little bit more energy. So you know, I definitely think there may be something to that,
Philip Pape 35:56
you know, wow, you just you just gave, you just gave me a revelation, and maybe the listeners as well. So you said that, like all these low carb diets that are also high in animal products, and fats, you know, I'm feeling great. I'm all of a sudden low carb, and I'm feeling great and may not be the last the reduction in carbs so much as the increase in some of these nutritious sources of fat and other energy. And, and actually the same client that I suggested reduced protein and increased fat just a few days ago is like, Hey, I felt like I had more energy. Yeah, there you go. So it's and you say it's anecdotal, but I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's studies to back it up. We'll make that claim, and then we'll have to go find internet. There you go. So, actually, or chat, GBT, you know, we're gonna get to that later. Actually, it's been a great tool for that kind of research. Yeah. What about oh, yeah, so red meat saturated fat. What about sodium? Right? There's another one. I actually just heard the guys on mind pump talk, talking about it again. Now. You know, it's always been a thing with sodium and blood pressure, people get too much. And yet many of us especially we eat more whole foods, I think don't get nearly enough. And there's some research that shows that like, one fast food meal has as much sodium as a whole week's worth of Whole Foods, you know, so it's so lopsided from that perspective. Also, sodium is electrolyte, at least from my perspective, that's a great thing. I tell people to salt their water and things like that. So let's just settle here. Now, Dustin. Right, so the world knows what to do. If you're a recreational lifter, what what's sodium? How much to to get?
Dustin Lambert 37:24
Okay. Yes. So most of my day is spent trying to help people reduce the amount of sodium that they're in taking. And I've done a little bit of research into this for just the general gym goer. Okay. So a lot of the a lot of the recommendations that we're receiving in the recreational lifting community and you know, the recreational athlete community is coming from social media influencers and other internet forms of information. And they are communicating science to us, that just doesn't apply to us. So the sodium recommendations for sport are for people who are generally like, we're talking about high level athletes here. We're talking marathon runners, professional athletes, the one level college athletes, that's what all of these recommendations have been based on. So most people aren't even aware of how much salt or sodium they're taking in, despite using tracking apps, that's just not something people are tracking. So high levels of sodium can cause some numerous health issues. Okay. And when we start hearing these, hearing these recommendations, also combined with the fact that people have no idea how much they're taking in how much salt they're taking in, it can lead them to start assaulting food that is already too salty. And that's going to that's kind of put you into the danger zone for a lot of these for a lot of these health issues. So some of those things are hypertension, I actually develop Yeah, I think I developed a salt sensitivity due to the severity issue here. So I was I was of the crowd did just salt, salt on me. I need salt because I need that that intramuscular fluid that intercellular volumization I gotta have this. Yeah, I It's touted as some, you know, major performance enhancer to I don't think that I don't think that that's really the case. So the average person if you start assaulting your food, you're taking in too much sodium and too much salt, you may develop hypertension, even if you don't so there are people who are salt sensitive there are people are not salt sensitive, and you might start taking in a lot of salt and not see any issues with your blood pressure. But that does not mean that you are escaping the effects of this. Because as you take in salt, that salt is going to draw in water. And the reason people's blood pressure gets high is because the volume of blood is now higher. So even though your your arteries and your veins have the capability to expand with this increased volume, your heart is pumping a larger volume. Okay. So your heart has to work harder.
Philip Pape 40:32
Yeah. So okay, so maybe I partially stand corrected. But what about people who have quote unquote, clean up their diet? Or let's just say they've they've transitioned, maybe they've worked with you and have shifted to mostly, you know, 80 90% Whole Foods and maybe the other 10 or 20%? is processed foods? Are they? Do they not have to worry about it at that point? Are they still potentially over assaulting those of people who need to add salt? Like, what's your take on that? Yeah, so
Dustin Lambert 40:58
my, my stance on the salt is, you know, the Limbo, Limbo titrate quality. So, from what I understand, I may be wrong. But the obligate amount of sodium for the human body is 500 milligrams a day. Okay? Okay. It's not two or three grams, like it is not two or three grams, that is a quarter, that is a quarter of a teaspoon. Now, the recommendations that we get from places like the USDA, the American Heart Association, all those other places can be a whole other topic. But those recommendations are generally to try and get an entire population to consume less sodium. Not that that is the optimal amount of sodium. Sure. Okay. So I really think the, the lower you can get your sodium, the better off you're going to be. Yeah, so for most people, if you if you just try and meet the guidelines, which is 2300 milligrams per day, I personally liked the American Heart Association's guideline, which is 1500 milligrams or less per day. I think that most people if you've cleaned up your diet, and and you're doing all the right things that that's going to be more than enough sodium for you to worry about. You don't need to worry about how much is lost in sweat. 95 to 98% of the sodium that you lose is actually done through your urine, not your sweat.
Philip Pape 42:24
Okay? Okay, this is really good to know because I'm gonna start looking at my salt and asking clients maybe to track a little bit because I feel like I get three grams a day or something like that of salt easily every day. So Now granted, I'm eating more right now than I was. That's it. Okay, good to know, man. See, so I learned something every time somebody says alright, let's let's Is there anything else about bloodwork you wanted to cover? We can get into training? Yeah, I don't know we can get in training. Alright, so I, we alluded to a little bit about what we talked about the autoimmune issues, but also, people do a lot of people deal with tendinopathy of some kind, like this is extremely common for overtraining, overuse, overreach, bad form. Whatever, you know, I personally, years ago had a really terrible squat rack grip, which is a very common thing, right? Going. When I was doing starting strength, learning the low bar had to meet with coach, the coach helped me fix everything, actually. What's his name? Cody, Nino here in Connecticut. And if you know me starting strength coach, I'll be fixed that. And then the tendinitis went away after I rehab it. So anyway, so we recently chat about this when I talked about my multi grip bar for my shoulder, right, like online. We were talking about that. And that's an equipment change. But what are some strategies you use with clients when it comes to tendinitis recovery, and continuing to make progress?
Dustin Lambert 43:46
Yeah, so definitely equipment change, definitely some changes in the the actual lifts that we're doing. It really depends on where the tendinopathy is, and kind of what is is usually making it hurt or making it worse. So normally, it is something like the squat or the benchpress. Lots and lots of biceps tendinitis and golfer's elbow, tenor, tennis, elbow, all that stuff. So what I like to do for those cases, is really reduced the frequency of the main lifts, so the number of times per week that you're exposed to that main lift, and especially if it's, if it's something like squat, so whenever I squat, My shoulder hurts, but nothing else does. We're definitely going to reduce the frequency of that per week. And if you're I, usually we'll go about half. So if you're squatting three times a week, we'll reduce that to one and a half times per week.
Philip Pape 44:54
Same intensity, same rep set of reps.
Dustin Lambert 44:57
Yep, same intensity same reps games. We He won't change the change the program at all. If I do change the program, it normally will be like a, we'll go from a three day program to a four day program, but we lift three days a week. Cool.
Philip Pape 45:13
All right. Yeah, no, that's good to know. Is you said golfers elbow that that's what I had before. What does that medial epicondylitis? Alright, and maybe tennis elbow, some people get on the outside shoulder issues? Are those pretty common?
Dustin Lambert 45:27
Yep, the shoulder issues are very common. So some people will will have it in the front. And that's usually biceps tendinitis. And then if you're experiencing in the back, that can often be a rotator cuff issue.
Philip Pape 45:38
Yeah. Okay. So yeah, definitely working with someone but it sounds like you don't it's not you shouldn't just rest and stop altogether. I mean, maybe stress period. Yeah. Gotta keep use it. Right.
Dustin Lambert 45:48
Yeah, you should, you should not rest and stop. Yeah,
Philip Pape 45:51
it's good advice. Well, what about cardio? So we're flying through. I like that. So we're flying through a bunch of topics. This is cool. You know, cardio, sometimes contentious, you know, there's all sorts of extreme again, media, social media people, you know, what's his name? Omar Yusuf, you know, with, he has that company where he sells clothes and actually have some of his graphic tees. One of them is cardio kills, and it has like a, it has like a person's skeleton with their flesh coming off as they write run on a treadmill. Yeah, you know, the alluding to like the interference effect, which we I think we know is a little bit less terrible than we thought it was. So there's the different types of cardio, there's walking, there's high intensity, there's low and medium intensity, how much to do whether it interferes with lifting, whether you adapt to it, you know, things like that. So how does cardio what what is your general philosophy for how people should treat cardio if their preference is building muscle and size? And strength?
Dustin Lambert 46:48
Yeah, so my, my philosophy is that, you need to just do your damn cardio. So how much of what is going to depend on the person? So I know that when I was a big fat powerlifter, I really, I really didn't want to do much cardio. I didn't, I didn't even do a whole lot of walking. Yeah. So but you know, if we're all in this to improve our health. And a little bit of cardio is not going to decrease that. I also noticed that with myself and with my clients, your lifting performance doesn't suffer, as long as you're not going overboard with stuff. So I like your your recommendation, which is half the amount of time of lifting for cardio. I think that's pretty good.
Philip Pape 47:44
For Mike Matthews, by the way,
Dustin Lambert 47:46
did you okay, it sounded familiar. I was like, that's good. I think I've heard it, but that's good. I like it. Yeah, so half the amount of time we're lifting. And if you're gonna do something high intensity, so I have had clients who really enjoy boot camp stuff, you know, we might, we might even bring that down to a quarter of the time of lifting. Because that, you know, why to it too much high intensity stuff is gonna wipe you out. But I think if you're just walking, I really, really enjoy walking. Or you're doing some zone to training, which is like you're on the elliptical or the treadmill or a bike or something. And you're working at a pace where you can hold a conversation the entire time, not as easily as we are here. But you wouldn't, you wouldn't struggle to have a conversation. I think it's perfectly fine.
Philip Pape 48:34
Oh, that's what we should be doing is walking into
Dustin Lambert 48:36
treadmills and walking on a treadmill. Yes, yes.
Philip Pape 48:40
I'm probably a little behind right now. Cool. All right. So it's all it's all very reasonable stuff. I mean, we're basically aligned on all this stuff. And I'm glad that listeners is getting the reinforcement of these. These principles. A lot of it is just it's like you said, just do your cardio, meaning we don't have to live in extremes. Or think that one thing is going to just totally destroy something else. Like listen to your body. Do the things you enjoy. If you like to play sports, play sports, you're trying to be healthy if you have a very, very specific goal. Sure, you may have to like compromise and make trade offs but we're talking general health. So speaking of that, like wearables come into that conversation as well. I'm a techie I have an Apple Watch, I have an aura ring. And I do like them for for steps and heart rate. And that's pretty much it. Plus all the other fun stuff. So Fitbit Apple Watch ordering all those. How can people get the most out of those in your opinion.
Dustin Lambert 49:32
He also the way to utilize wearable trackers is not to rely on the precision of them. So there's a difference between precision and accuracy. So the precision is how close to the actual number of steps they're able to calculate for the day and then the accuracy is how often or how close of a repeatable measure they can get. So they may wearable trackers are just not that precise. I do a lot of testing for my clients. And I wear a bunch of different stuff. So I have an Apple Watch, that is pretty much all the time. And I base everything else off of the Apple Watch, because that seems to be kind of the most consistent thing. So I recently wore a Amazon Halo. And the amount of steps, the difference between the amount of steps per day between the two of them was almost 6000 steps. Okay, well, however, that being said, they were both very, very consistent, and being 6000 steps off per day. So if you're utilizing these to, to track your steps, or track your your calorie expenditure per workout, or maybe your heart rate or anything like that, don't rely on the actual number that this thing is given to you. But just like our weight is we're looking for trends over time. Sure. Good.
Philip Pape 51:02
Yeah. That's that's a good way to put it precision versus accuracy. I've seen the same when it comes to like body fat percentage, you really can't rely on any of those devices. Yeah. Yeah, but the trend is not bad if you do it repeatedly over time at the same conditions. Yeah.
Dustin Lambert 51:19
Even DEXA. Yeah, even other than MRI, or saw, autopsy. Everything is wrong.
Philip Pape 51:29
It's true. It's true. People need to know that. And especially they need to know it, because I don't want you. I don't want you getting super excited when that data says something. And conversely, super depressed when it says something when both could be completely wrong.
Dustin Lambert 51:42
Yeah. Oh, no, on the Amazon Halo, so the app that that it comes with actually has a really, really good body fat estimator. So it actually uses the camera on your phone, and you stand in front of cameras, he set it up on a tripod or on the table or something. And it will actually take pictures of you front side back and give you an estimate of your body fat score. And it seems to be you know, pretty close to even the Navy standard, or even body calipers. It's really, really accurate. Wow,
Philip Pape 52:17
I could see why that might be when you use that high resolution camera combined with AI, maybe you could see those same measurements you'd be taking with, with with tape. But But wow, that's cool. I didn't know that. I'm gonna look at it. That's pretty cool.
Dustin Lambert 52:31
That's that's the one thing I like about it everything else? Because it
Philip Pape 52:35
doesn't require the halo though, because it almost sounds like you just do that with a camera and feed it into their software somehow.
Dustin Lambert 52:40
Yeah, he could probably just download the app and just do it with the camera.
Philip Pape 52:44
I don't know what it requires the halo. I'm gonna look into that. Man. That could be a cool tool. Yeah,
Dustin Lambert 52:48
it's very cool. I stopped taping myself. Okay,
Philip Pape 52:51
okay, that could be a game changer, man. Thanks. That's good. Hey, thank you, selfishly to me. A bunch of people aren't listening to this, but people listening to it. You're gonna love it, too. So, Joe, we I know we have a couple minutes left. I do have a hard stop at three. You may as well. But the AI stuff. I mean, what's your take on that? You know that there's a lot of discussions going on about are we going to stop thinking, you know, when we use these things, it's just going to do all our workforce. Like what's your take on how do we how we use things like chat GBT and Bing and Bard and all this stuff.
Dustin Lambert 53:23
Yeah. So right now I'm loving chat, GBT, I think a lot of the information that it's given me is is sound and is actually it's helping me bypass the normal channels where people would usually go to get information on nutrition and health and all that stuff. And actually, I'm getting to the scientists and to the research. And you're not getting it secondhand from somebody at on. And so I think that people out there can really utilize chat GBT, if you're just starting out into this, and you are kind of listening to a lot of different takes on stuff like the saturated fat. Just start asking the question, anytime somebody makes a claim of something. Just ask, is that true? And you can go to Chad GPT, you can pose a question. And a lot of the answers that I get from Chechi Beatty are very, very good. They're not black and white, yes or no, they have a lot of nuance to them. You can also ask it to cite your sources. So you can go and look for yourself. Maybe you find something on a topic that's very long, maybe you find a study, you can actually click the web address, copy the web address, posted into the chat GBT bar and ask it to summarize this for you. And it does, it does a fairly decent job at summaries. It will tend to summarize one aspect instead of the whole thing that totality of it. So people have to keep that in mind. And you can
Philip Pape 54:53
tell it to do it like Mr. T.
Dustin Lambert 54:55
You can tell to do like Mr. T or Snoop Dogg
Philip Pape 55:00
It's pretty cool. Yeah, I um, listen, I mean, when it comes to technology and tools, I'm a techie always have been with an engineering background and technology is always going to lead to amazing new things and terrible new things. It's just always will, right. And so the good in the world and those of us who want to do good and you know and make an impact, we can try to leverage those to the best of our ability to maximize that. I agree. So, okay, I want to ask you this. I ask all guests, if you've been listening my show at all, I think you know, what questions is coming was coming? What question did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Dustin Lambert 55:36
Who played the best Batman and why is it Ben Affleck?
Philip Pape 55:40
Very specific question. That's a leading question, though. It's a leading question. Wow. Because my wife would disagree. She would say it's who was from his Michael Keaton was the original in the early 90s.
Dustin Lambert 55:51
So yes, but that is a different question. Who is Batman? Michael Keaton, as is Batman, especially, who plays the best Batman who's Batman was the best. I think it's Ben Affleck. Because that is the Batman that is closely more closely related to the DC comic than anything else. That's the Batman who's dropping people off of roofs, and changing them up to the radiator and, you know, burning them with an iron in the shape of a bat to interrogate them to get information. So I really liked his Batman. But yeah, like,
Philip Pape 56:24
what about Christian bill? Christian is pretty brutal.
Dustin Lambert 56:27
His his was good. I mean, I like it, but I feel like his Batman is more of a Robin, not Batman, because it's kind of like it's kind of acrobatic, and he's a little bit on the smaller side. Ben Affleck is a big dude. Yeah, and so like, you know, the things that would a real Batman would have to like, he'd have to be that big. You know what I mean? You know, speaking
Philip Pape 56:50
of big what's, what's the show they made one season is reacher, the new reacher that came out last year. Yeah, that guy's physique. Yeah. Impressive. I mean, he's, I think he's naturally kind of the proportion seem natural to me. And he says he is but you know how these things go, right. Yeah. It policies like six, four. So that helps. Yeah, that's all are you does? I'm 510 510. All right. So we're about the same. We're about the same height. I have a little ways to go on the side. So all right, cool. Great, man. So where can listeners learn more about you and your work?
Dustin Lambert 57:21
Yeah, so I am basically only on Facebook because I am just not a big social media person. So they can find me there and message me and they have any questions. I'm happy to answer
Philip Pape 57:34
that your personal profile doesn't Yes. We'll link that in the show notes. And awesome as well. This has been a fun conversation. We covered a lot of different topics and you're awesome, you know, your expertise shine through the listener, I'm sure he's gonna get a ton of value from what you just heard me have to listen to it again with everything we covered. So thank you again for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum. Call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 70: Tailor Your Physique for Aesthetics, Fat Loss, Performance, and Health with Cody McBroom
Today, I’m super excited to have Cody McBroom on as my guest to share his expertise, his philosophy, and some inside strategies with us today for looking like you lift. Cody and I will discuss how to use data to reach your goals more efficiently, how to balance training for aesthetics and performance to improve your body composition, and how to overcome plateaus and obstacles along the way. We’ll also get into Cody’s coaching and podcasting experience and how to maintain a balanced life.
Today, I’m super excited to have Cody McBroom on as my guest to share his expertise, his philosophy, and some inside strategies with us today for looking like you lift. Cody and I will discuss how to use data to reach your goals more efficiently, how to balance training for aesthetics and performance to improve your body composition, and how to overcome plateaus and obstacles along the way. We’ll also get into Cody’s coaching and podcasting experience and how to maintain a balanced life.
Cody McBroom is a Trainer, Sports Performance Specialist, and Sports Nutritionist (CPT, PES, CISSN, MNU, PN2) and the owner of Tailored Coaching Method, a world-renowned online fitness and nutrition coaching company.
I learned about him through his Tailored Life Podcast, which I highly recommend following and personally listen to every episode, and my impression of Cody is that he is passionate about strength training and nutrition science and believes in using individualized and flexible approaches to help his clients get the best results possible.
Over the last 12 years, he’s worked with everyone from bikini and physique competitors to TV show actors and numerous WWE stars, but most of all he’s worked with everyday people just like you (and him), helping them FINALLY look like they actually lift.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:21] Cody's transformation story
[8:35] Having true power and clarity in your life starts with physical mastery
[14:33] If you're not tracking, you're guessing
[20:55] The Tailored Trainer App
[26:04] Balancing health, performance, and longevity goals
[32:14] Hormonal and metabolic adaptation and weight regulation
[36:37] Strategies for breaking through plateaus
[45:36] When and how to implement cardio into your training
[47:42] Avoiding autoregulation against weight loss
[49:48] Most challenging case Cody has worked with
[55:01] How has podcasting made Cody a better coach
[58:00] What he is working on now
[1:01:40] Where can you learn more about Cody
[1:02:20] Outro
Episode resources:
Cody’s website: https://tailoredcoachingmethod.com/
Cody's IG: @codymcbroom
The Tailored Trainer app: https://apple.co/3nYujMv
FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Cody McBroom 00:00
in different periods of my life, there's different things I'm tracking and when I track I'm literally guaranteed to be successful. And the reason I'm so common about that is because if I'm not moving towards the success I want, I at least have the numbers to tell me why and then I can adjust them so that I begin to move towards the success I want.
Philip Pape 00:21
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast today I'm super excited to have Cody McBroom on as my guest to share his expertise, his philosophy some insights strategies with us today for looking like you lift coding I will discuss how to use data to reach your goals more efficiently, how to balance training for aesthetics and performance to improve your body composition and how to overcome plateaus and obstacles along the way. We'll also get into Cody's coaching and podcasting experience and how to maintain a balanced life. Cody McBroom is a trainer, sports performance specialist and sports nutritionist and the owner of tailored coaching method, a world renowned online fitness and nutrition coaching company. I learned about him through his tailor life podcast which I highly recommend following and I personally listen to just about every episode. And my impression of Cody is that he's a passionate guy when it comes to strength training when it comes to people and nutrition science and believes in using individualized and flexible approaches to help his clients get the best results possible. Over the last 12 years. He's worked with everyone from bikini and physique, competitors, to TV show actors and numerous WWE stars. But most of all he's worked with everyday people just like you and him and me helping them finally look like they actually lift Cody, I'm stoked to welcome you to the show.
Cody McBroom 02:03
Oh Lee said, Man, that was great. That was the best intro I've ever had somebody do for me, man. Thank you. That's awesome.
Philip Pape 02:10
And I appreciate that it's a high standard, I really appreciate that it's well deserved. Again, I listen to your stuff, and the listeners gonna gain a lot of value from this. So let's just dive in. We all have transformation stories. So So tell us yours. How did you go from being what you call a bit beyond chubby as a kid to competing in a bodybuilding show? And coaching celebrities and everyday people and then eventually creating the tailored coaching method?
Cody McBroom 02:36
Yeah, man. It's pretty crazy. It's a it's a wild, wild journey because I was always kind of like the black sheep of the family just in the sense of, you know, my dad he owned, he moved out and owned. I don't know how this work because he wasn't even 18 yet. He moved out at 17 and already ran a karate studio. So he ran a Korean karate studio with a black belt. He was doing street competitions. He was in magazines. He was very fit. And my mom was a gymnast and backpacker just outdoors person extremely fit her dad was an Olympic kayaker Olympic. He did the rings and the Olympics do so dude was jacked. My brother just naturally stay lean. He could just eat whatever and stay lean played soccer and stuff like that. And I was just a chubby kid. You know, I think looking back, it's funny because I'm different than a lot of people my family in many ways, just my personality type my attitude, like I love my family to death, but I'm definitely I stand out. And one of the reasons was as well because I was just always just a heavier kid. And the more I look back at it and kind of have studied genetics and all that stuff was definitely epigenetics. You know, at the end of the day, I wasn't a couch potato actually, my brother played video games a lot, but I was always outside. I was always playing I was always doing stuff. But I didn't eat the best when I was a kid and that ultimately resulted into it. So from being a baby, I was a big baby all the way to high school. I was just always heavier. In high school, I started playing soccer and skateboarding, snowboarding, do a little bit more I sort of lose a little bit way kind of hit a growth spurt leaned out a little bit. And then I tore my meniscus sophomore year in soccer, gained some weight after that came back junior year kind of recovered, senior year tore my ACL. And so in the same knee so like to injuries back to back kind of shot down the idea of going to my original plan was go to junior college and then get and then transfer to university play soccer. That was like my hopes that got shut down. So I ended up going to community college, I was overweight. I graduated at 17 years old, so I'm a little bit younger for my class. And so there was man I was 18 years old to knee injuries already surgery heavier than I've ever been. I'm five nine I think I got up to like about 210 But you know, not huge, but I will say this too at that point. I later really had not lifted a weight before. Like I wasn't the high school kid and weights cost, right? I did not lift like period if you're fat, and I just remember being like, man, like I have friends at college playing ball, I'm just kind of back home, going to school because my dad told me to go to community college, do business, study business one on one or whatever. I was just overweight, I was unhappy. I was sweating too often, I had no energy at a young age I was you know, partying too much stuff like that. And I just I don't know, I just had this lightbulb moment, one day, I will, like looked in the mirror. After getting a shower, I was butt naked, just look to myself and was like, Dude, you're pathetic. This like, not to shame yourself or make it you know, too negative. But I literally was like, Man, this is just unacceptable, dude, you got to make a change. So I took ownership of it made a big shift. And when I made that shift, I just man, I just literally went all in and I just completely transformed my body. Starting with everything that doesn't work, you know, just trying it all. And there was definitely some ups and downs with losing and gaining losing and gaining but eventually I found content and like tea nation and bodybuilding.com forums and started like reading from other people and learning from them. And I fell in love with blogs and content and writing and fitness books. Which led me to just digging deeper and deeper. I eventually changed my degree in school to the fitness program at the College, the junior college. My parents both said no at the time, because I was still overweight and didn't really know what I'm doing. But I forged my dad signature did it anyway, change my degree did that he found out later on, I ended up getting an internship at a strength gym in Seattle called vigor ground and just learned a ton man, it was like, it was just really cool. Like I just met a lot of cool people at a young age, I got into industry at 18 years old. And so I started with a really good foundation and dove headfirst and there was never a point where I was like, maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll do something else. It was like this is all I have, this is all I'll do, this is the only thing I want. And I never had a plan B. So I lost 40 to 50 pounds myself. And then that transformation went from losing 4050 pounds of fat to realize that now I'm just skinny, and I need to put on muscle. So then I started diving into building muscle. And you know, I was training people. And then I did a bodybuilding show which got me into nutrition. And then that led me to getting becoming a nutrition coach. And then you certify multiple times with that. And then eventually I became a sports nutritionist and I kind of went further with my credentials and certificates and long story short man I just kept just kept going, just kept going and going and go on until eventually I started my company, which is what we're at now.
Philip Pape 07:29
Yeah, for sure, man. I mean, your your passion and energy shines through that you said you went all in at a pretty early age. And I could relate to so much of your story, the difference being that it took me like 40 years before I could get to that point of figuring out but I'm also five nine and I understand what being too tenant five nine without any muscle is like exactly that saying that you are unhappy sweating, even at that young age. And then even just the consuming content, because there's so much misinformation and we're in a golden age right now, for better or worse. I say for better. I'm an optimist, that there's so much great information if you can find it. And guys like you, Cody and everyone I try to steer people to the books and podcasts are a fantastic, fantastic way to learn and grow today. So I love that story. And then you just kept going and going and going and building and people listening to this like check out Cody stuff because it's not just about fitness hear it's about it's about. It's about the hard work. It's about learning growing and and doing the heavy lifting. And there's a lot of business principles you talk about and a lot of, you know, you reference, you know, Socrates and stoicism, things like that in your stuff. So I appreciate all of that. Yeah, so yeah, so speaking of the, like the physical mastery, right, you've written I think there's only a website, that having true power and clarity in your life starts with your body physically. I agree with this 100%. But explain your thinking behind that premise.
Cody McBroom 08:50
Yeah, so this is, I used to say actually made shirts for clients way back years ago that said, your body is the fastest path to power. Or maybe the shirt just said your body is the path to power because it was big on the back. But like, that's always been kind of something in the back of my mind. Because I did not do good in school. I wasn't a philosophical person I didn't read I wasn't an intellect until I found fitness and I didn't. Fitness in the transformation I made physically it created a level of self mastery in so many other areas. Like it's what taught me discipline is what gave me grit and willpower and self control. It's what taught me purpose and meaning in life. It's what gave me more motivation to push. It's what allowed me to create more self belief and eliminate self doubt because I kept proving to myself what I could do and what I was capable of. It gave me more confidence, which gave me the ability to take action and take more risks in life, which led to more success like it just it opened up so many doors for me, and I've you know, I think some people will hear that and if you're a fitness professional, it might seem as if or if you're not a fitness professional, you might think that that only applies to fitness professionals because yeah, It opened up all those doors for me, because I'm a coach because I'm an industry. But I kept having all these clients experiencing the same things like they had better marriages, they found the girl or found the guy, or they got a raise at the job, they were able to start waking up early and meditating and journaling, they started doing other things that they wanted to do, because they finally had the energy, the confidence, the fitness, the everything, you know, the body image that they wanted, in their mind, like everything. And so I've always been that way. And once I went through a program years ago, called Wake Up Warrior, I'm not a part of it anymore. And truthfully, I like what they do is great, and all its things have changed for sure. Just I mean, what the way of the world today, everything kind of shifts and just gets kind of like a lot of stuff gets pretty extreme. And you know, once something small gets so large, it loses some of the meaning behind it when it started. So I use I say Wake Up Warrior carefully, because I just know that things are more polarizing today, you know, anyway, they had this thing called core four and core four stood for body being balanced business and body was your body physically, being was yourself spiritually, mentally, emotionally, whether that meant like your religious faith, or what you believe you believe in universal God, or it's just like your mindset, conference, whatever, it's just you personal development, right? balances your relationships. So if you have a spouse, your spouse, kids, whatever, or your family, your friends, just other people, and the business is your career, your finances, investments, whatever. And it taught me a lot about life, because those things are always connected. You know, like, the way I always looked at it. And I have some, I mean, I have a lot of tattoos now, but I have some tattoos that kind of like, represent this idea or the story of life. And it's this idea that, you know, you kind of have this quote unquote, kingdom, if you will, and your kingdom is your body, your life, your story. And it's standing on four pillars, and that's body being balanced business. It's these four aspects, those four aspects are the things we constantly think about the things that we constantly set goals for, they're the things that we are jealous of other people, when they have something that we want, it almost always fits into those categories. You know, when we think about goals we want to achieve in life, it's in those categories. When we think about a partner we want in life, and we want to see if they have the same mindset or or they want the same things out of life, so on and so forth. It's in those categories. And so they're all connected, and if one crumbles, the Kingdom falls, right. So if I'm crushing in business, I'm shredded, like very confident, but my relationship sucks, I promise it's only a matter of time before the rest of the ship falls apart, right. And if you have a great relationship, but your job is causing a lot of stress, or your you get laid off, or anything that's gonna cause stress elsewhere, if you're super out of shape, unconfident, unhealthy, always getting sick, that's gonna bleed into others, too. So there has to be this way to like, let them all survive and thrive really, right. And what I found was that they always had to go in that order body being balanced business, which meant you take care of yourself physically, then you take care of yourself Self mentally, emotionally and spiritually, then you take care of the ones around you. And the business, the career, the passion, the finances, it figures itself out, once those do, right. And so your body is the fastest path to power and all those. It's kind of the idea.
Philip Pape 13:10
Yeah, man. Yeah, there's so many themes like that in life, when you think of health, wealth, relationships, spirituality, right, or the virtuous cycle, or the fact that, you know, one thing leads to another and placing the body first if you think about it, that's that's our connection with the earth with people with the things we touch the things that we do. And if that doesn't exist, or in any healthy state, you can't do all the other things. So absolutely love that Cody. So body being balanced and business. It also reminds the idea of like, the self worth self worth, that you get from improving your body physically, then leads to the self confidence and now gives you the the ability to help somebody it's like in the airplane, you know, you have to put the put the mask on you before you help your kid, you know. Yeah, good stuff. So getting DPO coding as I expected.
Cody McBroom 13:57
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's exactly it, man. You got to take care of yourself before before any of those other things kind of work themselves out. And I think that, it just, it became very obvious for me, and I've kind of used that. I mean, I went through a week of worry when I was like 20 years old. So it's been like a decade of me just keeping that in the back of my mind and letting that be my Northstar to direct me through the actions I take in life. And it's been it's been a game changer.
Philip Pape 14:21
Yeah. And honestly, who would listen to you or follow you if you hadn't gone through that yourself? Right? If you had mastered it, that's not like your ability to impact others is springs from that. Alright, so let's get a little bit more, more practical for a second here. On your podcast, you talk a lot about using data measuring, tracking, using feedback. And actually just today, perfect timing you posted on your IG account. If you're not tracking you're guessing, and nobody guesses their way to a great body. So this speaks to me because I have an engineering background engineering mind I think of like KPIs and measures and outcomes and I love to coach with my clients and that approach to people talk about tracking as being annoying or inconvenient. But I always say, Well, how inconvenient it is to not know what's going on and that never have results compared to the minor inconvenience of tracking. So what would you say differentiates that approach, which I think is pretty core to how you do things versus other methods? And then how that leads to better results?
Cody McBroom 15:15
Well, you know, I think that it kind of depends on what other methods we're looking at. Because to say that Trump would never say, you know, and it depends, if we're just specifically talking about tracking macros, a lot of people read that, and that's what they assume I'm talking about, which for the most part, it definitely is, it falls in that category. But if you are trying to reach a weight loss goal, you better be tracking your weight, whether you're tracking macros or not. If you want to reach a new business goal, you better be tracking KPIs and sales and leads and conversions. Yeah, there's a lot to it, you know, if you are recording a podcast like this one, and you want to be successful with it, where are your downloads at? How many episodes a week you're doing, where's your demographic? Where your listeners, what time? Are they airing, like there's a lot to it. So growth in anything requires metrics. And that's the big point, right? You can't guess yourself to a great or a great result or successful anything, really. And so the nice thing about macros specifically is that it does take that guesswork out of it. And it allows us to be sure that we're heading in the right direction. Now, everybody knows that. There's more than one way to skin a cat, you can create a deficit in many ways. And a deficit is ultimately what leads to fat loss. So, of course, as you can imagine, I get people that comment on that. And they're like, Well, what about this? What about this? And it's like, hey, is there a deficit being created? Yes. Okay. At first, you might be able to do that without tracking. But what happens when you plateau? How do you create a bigger deficit without tracking something, even if you are falling an old school meal plan have zero idea of what you are eating on a caloric or a macro basis within the day, you have to measure your food to know how much you're eating so that you can adjust that food because if you're eating a cup of oatmeal, you got to make it a half cup when you plateau to drop carbs, therefore calories and therefore create a bigger deficit, to lose more weight and break through the plateau. So the big thing is like, it's metrics are our GPS to success. And if we're being intuitive, we're guessing and intuition only gets us I wouldn't even say that I wasn't saying intuition only gets us to success after we've done it multiple times. But even then, intuition only allows us to sustain or maintain the success we've already achieved. Because if you are able to, you know, we talked about like Eric Helms and stuff before we started going, he he did a full bodybuilding prep, I don't think he tracked his macros the whole time. I heard him say, and maybe he did at the very end or something like that. And that takes a lot of experience to be able to do, especially a bodybuilding prep, however, I don't think you can say that he was eating intuitively, you know, we might say that because it's just easier to explain. If you say eating intuitively, nowadays, we just know that he wasn't tracking. But realistically, he was being very intentional. And in his mind, he knows how much he's eating. That's the point is he can do it without macros, because he knows the macros in his head.
Philip Pape 17:51
Yeah, he's turned himself into a food blogger in his Exactly.
Cody McBroom 17:53
So like, even at that point, you still have metrics. So I think my big thing is, and I'm a very data driven guy, too, is I look at metrics with everything man, I look at metrics for, even if it's simple, like habits and more tracking, right, I want to track my habits, I want to track my scores, I want to cross things off the To Do lists, I want to track my weight, I want to track my macros, I want to track my biofeedback, my happiness score, HRV energy, like, not all of these things all the time every day, but in different periods of my life, there's different things I'm tracking. And when I track, I'm literally guaranteed to be successful. And the reason I'm so common about that is because if I'm not moving towards the success, I want, I at least have the numbers to tell me why. And then I can adjust them so that I begin to move towards the success I want.
Philip Pape 18:41
Yeah, let's Yeah, no, it makes total sense. Let's repeat that. Right? When you track you're guaranteed to be successful. Because you have two options. Either you take that data and adjust or you take that data and deliberately not adjust. And then either way, it's in your control. So I think that's great for people to hear.
Cody McBroom 18:57
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the big thing, right? Is the control. Like if you're if you're, if you're not tracking stuff, you're not controlling whatever it is you're after. So it's, I mean, people always laugh when I make ridiculous analogies, but it's if you're driving a car and there's no gas meter and you're like I know about when my tank is empty, screw that like you're good luck you know, it's it's idiotic. If you want to save money to do something, and you're like, I'm just going to intuitively save or I don't need a savings account. I don't need a budget. It's just dumb. It is literally dumb and it's hot people people constantly try to like shit on tracking macros as if it's this obsessive or OCD and the reality is it can be but so can paleo so can carnivore so can training so can bodybuilding. So can budgeting so can advertising so can business so can marriage. So can religion. Anything can become neurotic, overwhelm overwhelming too much if you let it get there. So it's not about the modality it's about the person utilizing the modality and how they're using that. Right so if you are that type of person, you need to be coached specifically, or you need to choose a different route that is less likely to cause that behavior. But I do believe if you go into it with the right education and the right mindset, it's never going to cause that for you. It's just going to give you a shot plan to getting where you want to be.
Philip Pape 20:14
Yeah, yeah, I like that. And if if something is a barrier to your tracking, look at what it is right? Like, if I get a lot of clients who say, Well, I tried food logging, but it was just really tedious. They said, Well, what app we're using x, okay, let's try Why all of a sudden, that was the barrier to their ability to track and it's not really about the tracking, right. It's about the method, the process, the tools, the things. I mean, at this point, having done just what you said, I didn't track my whole life. And then three or four years ago, when I started my own transformation, I did it thinking this is gonna be tough. You know, within a few weeks, you get used to it. They're like, Man, this just makes everything easier. This makes everything else easier, because I have data, you know, and I know what the heck I'm doing. So we keep reiterating that for folks, because it really does make a difference. So then, I mean, you have an app, right? You The Tailored trainer, how much does that will tell us about the app? Like what makes it unique? And does it tie into this approach?
Cody McBroom 21:04
Yeah, so I don't know when this will air. So as we're recording this, the new app isn't live yet. So we have it's kind of funny, because I basically closed the doors to the the current app that we have. People who are in the app can use it as function, but I enabled people's ability to actually sign up. And the reason it does, because we're transitioning where I've been developing an app, because I use the third party, which is great. Like when you get started in the app world, there's no point in investing $100,000 in the app, and trying to figure it all out, because you don't know what you're getting into yet. You don't know if it's gonna work, I haven't tested it. So I went the route of like, Hey, I'm gonna, you know, start a membership kind of thing where people can buy programs for super cheap. And it's basically like, we did it so that the people who did nutrition coaching with us can find affordable programming. So they weren't doing dumb shit in the gym, they could actually have a good training program. But like having a random web portal with Excel sheets just isn't a business, you know. So once I was like, Oh, shit, people really liked this, and they're actually signing up, then I was like, Okay, let's go to true coach. And we'll like, figure out a way to manage that. And then it just got too busy, because there was too many people in there. And then we were trying to get them in and get them out and do all this stuff. And it just, it didn't work. And then I hired a company who is basically like a third party, they are the app company, and they white label for fitness people and was like, Oh, this is perfect, way cheaper, so expensive. But I can just use theirs. And then after a while you realize, like, there's so many things that I wish this app had because tech people created it, not fitness people. And so I decided to start investing in my own app. And so we should be done. Actually, technically, it'll be done this month, in April, as we're recording this and and then we're going into like beta mode, where we test it with some people and stuff to make sure all the kinks are out. And we're good. But the app itself is just strictly training programs. So we do a lot of coaching, where we there's a lot of data driven coaching for both training and nutrition, primarily nutrition with people. And then the app is like, basically your daily workouts. And there's only so many things that we can do inside this right, like so, when we're looking at training, and we're looking at tracking metrics, there's obviously progressive overload. So how many reps you do and how much weight are you lifting? Right? We need to track that. Because if you come to me, and you're like, I've been following this program for four weeks, I'm like, Oh, cool. How much weight have you added to XYZ lift? Like, I don't know, like, Well, do you know if it's working? Like, are you getting better? Like, I think so. And if you're a natural lifter, like, are you building muscle, I think I don't know, it's only been four weeks I like the only guaranteed way to know is to measure or to track your progress the gym because if your eight rep benchpress is going up, you're probably building some muscle, you know, a bigger muscle has that capability being a stronger muscle. So you got to be one of those. And you probably should be measuring too. But so the app obviously will allow us to track that it'll allow us to track our AR, which is reps and reserve. So basically, how far are you going how many leaving a tank, there's a lot of features and functions that we haven't fully committed to because we're in the development stage. So I'm not going to, you know, say what they are, because some of them will be there from the beginning. And some of them will be like features that we add as we go. But there's I mean, when it comes to training, I think the biggest thing is that you gotta be tracking your progress in the gym, you know, and if you're doing that alongside your body composition, measurements and weight and things like that, that's going to be the best way to ensure that you're actually making progress.
Philip Pape 24:26
Yeah, that's what it's all about. Yeah, no, I have some community members who wanted me to ask you about the app. And you know, I'm not a personal trainer and nutrition coach. So I always like to find, you know, really good trainers or people who have programs to point them to so it's good, good that we know that this will probably be coming out in a few weeks. So it'll be you know, yeah, for now.
Cody McBroom 24:45
Yeah. So we even we actually dropped a program for technically two programs for guys, two programs for girls. It's like a four day and a five day men 45 Day girls and train heroics. You can go to TrainerRoad comm just search my name. And I basically came out was something in there and just made it cheap, 12 week program, like, let me just make this cheap just so people have something to use until the app launches, because I can't fully commit to a date. It'll be out the summer, but I can't say exactly what day we're going to launch it because I don't want to, you know, I don't want to. But, yeah, but um, but that was gonna be epic. I'm excited about it, man, it's gonna be really cool to have my own app. And my goal is actually what you just said too, is to have trusted nutrition coaches have a resource as well that they can send their clients to that is an app that is it's all virtual. I mean, it's, it's, there's no coach in here. It's just, it has great programs written by me, it's done for you. You can track your metrics, you can see what you're doing. And it's cheap, super cheap. It'll be $29 a month, and it's like done for you.
Philip Pape 25:40
Yeah, love it, you love it. Because that's, I mean, as a coach and my clients, there's, there's a lot of frustration when it comes to tools, the you know, we live in a digital world. And even from a nutrition coaching side, there's, there's, there's no one thing that does everything you want, just like you I wish I could just leap forward in my business and like investing in my own custom app, I know the 100 things that it needs to do, and nothing does that. So you do your best to work around it. So alright, getting back into the lifting nutrition, since you brought that up, people do want to look and feel better. They also want to lift and perform like an athlete. Sometimes these goals are in conflict, right? And this is why we use periodization, both from a training side and from a nutrition side. So how do we do? How do we strike that balance? What's your philosophy, when we talk about someone comes in says, I want to optimize my body composition. But I also want to be the healthiest I want to live long and I want to perform.
Cody McBroom 26:30
Yeah, it's you know, everybody wants the perfect trifecta. I think it's absolutely possible as long as you're not living in any extreme. And I think that's the conversation has to be has educating them on the negatives or the downsides that come with going to any one extreme. So for example, I'll be competing in men's physique in October. So my prep prep hasn't really started yet, I got a solid month, maybe two at most of just trying to continue to put on a little size, stay at least that maintenance calories, keep my body healthy. And then once my prep start, it's all go right. Now if I have let's say 20 pounds of body fat to lose, to get to prep. For me personally, that first five is going to be healthy, I lose five pounds of fat, I'm gonna be healthier. After about five, I'm just getting to a point where I'm telling somebody like I can see my abs I'm already leaner than the average person. So this is the point is that when you break through, and get into that extreme range where you You're, you're so lean, that it's no longer functionally healthy. That's where she's me, there's downsides to it, right. And these downsides are essentially hormone dysfunction. So if you go too far, and extremes you're gonna have if you're a female, you might experience reds in the female try out where you know, you haven't been Rhea, maybe some bone loss issues, osteoporosis, things like that. Obviously, immune system crashes, cortisol levels gonna be chronically elevated, which can lead to more stress, typically, your thyroid hormones gonna get suppressed. If you start having a lack of T 3d T for conversion, which is your thyroid hormone, your metabolism is going to metabolically adapt, like that's part of it right? All this is really part of metabolic adaptation. For guys, testosterone is going to lower for women as well, but it's just not going to be nearly as big of a deal. And eventually, for women, the menstrual cycle can potentially stop happening because they take it too far. And their sex hormones continue to drop. US that only happens when you're getting like contest lean. But the point is, is that if you want like there's difference between getting lean and getting shredded, and I think that's where like this happy medium is, because for a lot of people getting leaner, so like let's take guys with testosterone, for example. You know, if we die, it, just ASAN is going to drop, but like if I put you in a calorie deficit, within days, your testosterone is going to drop, but it's suppressed because of the lack of intake of your food. It's not permanently suppressed. So if I give you a refeed day, boom, it's right back up, right. We're not reversing metabolic adaptation here with a refeed. But we're also not compromising testosterone by eating less calories for a few days. It's a short term response. Same reason why they say if you're gonna get your bloodwork done, do it fast in the morning after sleeping, don't go train or go eat because those things can cause a drop in testosterone numbers. It doesn't mean training lowers testosterone fact, it's the opposite. So it depends when you're reading it. But the point is, is that when we talk about like long term wise, the only way we're going to see a significant drop in testosterone for guys is if we take a diet too far or too aggressively, or we do it too frequently, right. And these are like I always call them the dieting dials. We have intensity, frequency, and duration. If you diet for too long, that long term diet fatigue is going to stimulate long term hormonal adaptations like cortisol being too high. So the stress hormone, testosterone being too low in section one for guys. If you go too aggressive at the diet, you might experience those if you diet too often you're going to experience those so we kind of have to balance these three dials or meters in order to find this happy medium because for a guy who has 40 pounds of body fat to lose, the more body fat you lose the healthier your testosterone is gonna get because that body fat is causing lower testosterone levels. However, if you go, if you lose 60 pounds, when you only had 40 lose, because you're gonna step on stage, once you get past that 40. Now, you're on the other end of it, you're getting leaner and leaner, and it's getting lower and lower. So there's this happy medium. And in, you know, as far as performance goes, it's very similar. It's just that if we have a lower energy intake, because our we're in a deficit, obviously, our performance is going to take a hit, if we are not taking as much calories, it's gonna be harder to maintain muscle, which makes it harder to train. It's it's commonplace, you know, for sure. So it's kind of balancing these things, you know, I think that the smartest thing to do is periodized them so that you can focus mainly on one thing at a time. And then for everyday individuals who have a considerable amount of body fat to lose, which I would say is, you know, 20 plus pounds of just pure body fat to lose. I see no reason why they can't consistently get healthier, build muscle get stronger while losing body fat. Yep, and you know, that's recomp and maybe say recomp, impossible, but it's really not. They see it all the time in research, especially if you have a lot of fat to lose, or you're brand new to lifting. But even somebody who's just hasn't been serious about it for a while, you could possibly return to it. Yeah, yeah, I see it all the time. So yeah, there's definitely a happy medium, I think it's just when you take it any, any which way to extremes, like if you want to be the healthiest person that lives the longest, you're not setting yourself up to get the most jacked or the most ready to perform the best. If you want to be the strongest powerlifter, you're also not gonna be the most shredded or most healthy. So like, You got to find out where the happy medium is for you. And if you want to take it to an extreme everyone smile, more power to you.
Philip Pape 31:34
Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, I'm always wondering about that. Because you know, four or five years ago, I'd never would have thought I could I could even see muscle definition, let alone go to an extreme. And I haven't done anything like what you've done to tour the show, but I'm very keenly interested in potentially doing it. So you know, people are listening, you talked about having extra weight to lose as kind of a starting place. Or if you're D trained, I see it as like, you come down into that that range, that healthy range where you could potentially live there for the rest of your life but like you said, then you can period eyes it to get down lean, maybe going into the the seasons, like into the summer season where you go to the beach, maybe bulk during the winter up here, you know, we're all in our jackets, and you know, it's cold, eat a lot of food, and then push the extremes. So speaking of that, you know, you talked I think recently on your podcast about how you're carrying like, I don't know 10 1015 pounds more something like that from four years ago to now for similar level of leanness for your show, something like that. I think it was like 10 pounds. What is the well in terms of these hormonal and metabolic adaptations you talked about with reproductive hormones and thyroid and everything else? Is the depression level? Is the adaptive adaptation The same for the same amount of weight. Same amount of body fat Cody, if you're heavier versus if you're lighter. Do you know what I'm trying to say? Like now that you've got more weight on your body? You don't have to go to a lower weight, but your body fat percentage is still gonna get in the same range. Is it the same adaptation?
Cody McBroom 33:19
It's a really good question. I don't think I don't think we know because I don't think there's been research they would have to do. Let's say they would have to follow up with participants in a med, who were in a metabolic adaptation study, and then do another study after they've done a successful gaining phase for a year. You know what I mean? Like it would be very difficult, really cool. I would love to see that. Yeah. I do have some thoughts on it, though. I think that number one, the thing we have to remember is the primary driver that we know of for metabolic adaptation is weight regulation. Now body fat regulation. And I say that lightly because there are a lot of hormonal adaptations that are caused by body fat. So there's plenty of times where people you know what I mean, if you're too lean, it's your body fat levels that are causing amenorrhea or extreme, you know, with women in extreme cases or men, testosterone, if your diet is super low and saturated fat or you're extremely lean and don't have much body fat, your body, your testosterone levels are going to take a hit. So there's definitely something there. But if we look at like early stages, especially of metabolic adaptation, it's kind of like the whole thermostat thing and it's based on your weight. This is why they James Krieger did that case study research study, where he took somebody through a bodybuilding prep and every pound he lost, he added that weight back onto a weight vest and the guy wore like this basic. It's like a weighted shirt. And so he lose a pound he had a pound and he lives in he had to wear it to work. Thankfully he owned a gym so people don't think it's too crazy. But you would wear it to the gym. He'd wear it while you train, he'd wear it to the score store. If you think about it, like I'm wearing a shirt and then you know next week I check in with my coach. I'm down a pound and I just put a little pound on it. It's really not that big. do after you lose 30 pounds for PrEP, I'm sure it's weighing you down, but you acclimate to it kind of like the whole like Mila with a calf on his back, you know, progressive overload. So they saw that D diminished metabolic adaptation, he was able to diet on way more calories. And it made it tricky on the reverse diet, obviously, because part of the problem is, is that you kind of can trick your body into getting there, from a metabolic perspective, meaning your maintenance calories. However, if you're that lean, you're still going to experience those negative hormonal adaptations. The problem with that is that if you didn't have to diet super low, you don't really have to bring your calories have super high after the show. But if your hormones are suppressed, because your body fat levels, we got shredded, but your calories really high. Where do you go? You know, it's like, that's right, you need that bump up? Yeah, yeah. So it can be tough, because you got to put the body fat back on after show to recoup some of those hormones. Now, for a normal person, that'd be great. Because they don't want to put body fat back on. However, they also don't want to wear away, I guess you
Philip Pape 35:58
could just stop moving all together, right?
Cody McBroom 36:01
So, but it just kind of goes to show it's an interesting case study, because it kind of tells us like, okay, like weight is the primary driver of this Metabolic adaptation. And maybe body fat levels on your body are the primary driver for hormonal adaptations, especially the sex hormone specifically. So, you know, where does this leave somebody like myself, who has put on a lot of muscle over the years after doing a show and stuff like that? I don't know. Because I think that equally, you know, I could say, Yeah, I'm probably going to be better off maybe able to diet, on less calories, so on and so forth. But on my body mass is bigger, so it's not going to feel any different. You know, what 1500 calories felt like to me when I was 20 pounds lighter is what 2000 calories gonna feel like to me now that I'm 20 pounds heavier. So it's, it's very hard to say yes, it's all relative.
Philip Pape 36:48
Yeah, I was just curious, ya know, it just popped into my head. Like, I nerd out on this stuff. And hopefully, you know, hopefully, I don't lose a listener. I know they don't they they stick they stick through with these conversations, because I love this stuff. So speaking of so metabolic adaptation, then leads to the discussion of plateaus as well, right? Because you talked about tracking data, we talk about macros, we're tracking all that you hit a plateau, likely due to adaptation and other things. Having that data lets us push through it. At least that's part of it. And it goes both directions, right. So when you're gaining, you might think you're a hard gainer. We know we know that some evidence shows that hard gainers, they burn like half the half the amount of extra calories that they start eating and so they kind of have to keep cake keeping up with it. What are your some some of your favorite strategies then for breaking through all of these kinds of plateaus?
Cody McBroom 37:36
Yeah, you know, it's before I say what a good strategy would be I just I do you want to preface like the tracking thing is it goes so much beyond macros, because you know, if we're one of the biggest will be the word one of the biggest things essentially, that happens during metabolic adaptation is your meat drops off your knees, your non exercise Activity Thermogenesis like that, how much you step, how much you stand, how much you walk, me moving my hands while I talk to you. That's all neat. It's not an exercise. I'm not intentionally doing it, but it's happening, and it's burning calories. So that drops off a lot. And then we have to look at that and go, how much of that can we even control? Really just steps? I mean, obviously, I'm not going to like, okay, like, rewatch this and see how much I move my hands and how many times I blink and fidget and then try to replicate that or as I die, like, it's not gonna happen.
Philip Pape 38:21
And you're also gonna add muscle overnight, because that's the only other way Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So
Cody McBroom 38:25
if we know that steps are the only thing that we can control, we do have to try to track those. And that's going to help a lot, too. So when we look at this, and this is this is the same reason why if you look at a bodybuilders diet, and it's they just eat the same thing every fucking day. And the reason is because it controls variables. So if they know for sure, even if they're inaccurately tracking it, if they eat same thing, every single day, when they drop 25 grams of carbs, they know they're dropping the same amount, and it's from a control variable. So it's not sustainable long term, but during a diet phase, it can be helpful. So we control these aspects. So now the thermic effect of food is the same, because it didn't change unless my calories change. I'm keeping my steps up. And what I might do is if I go into a deficit, I might add 1000 steps, not because I want to necessarily burn more calories from those steps. But if I'm just adding 1000 I'm probably just burning as much because once At first I'll burn more. But once adaptation, which usually from what I know takes about three weeks, that's what I asked that to our chief science officer was like How long does it take for metabolic adaptation actually kicks in and starts to have an effect and he said, usually about three weeks, and so in three weeks, my knee starts to take off but I increased my steps at about that point, so that I burned more calories through steps while I burn less through blinking, fidgeting, twitching
Philip Pape 39:38
movement, so it offsets people need to understand it offsets otherwise, it would be much bigger drop.
Cody McBroom 39:42
Exactly. So when I track these things, I can control them and therefore I can prevent the plateau to an extent right it's gonna happen eventually anyway. But the reason this is so important is because if you do that, it means that when out of metabolic adaptation takes place and you do hit a plateau. It's actually a sign of success, because met bulk adaptation is taking place because you lost five pounds. And when you're five pounds lighter, your mass is smaller and your mass requires less calories to sustain. And that means, guess what? You won. And so now that you're five pounds later, the reward you get is you have to eat less to break the plateau. So
Philip Pape 40:17
it's true, because you just fought that battle with your body and your body's like, alright, take it to the next step.
Cody McBroom 40:22
Exactly. Right. So even they have, they did a meta analysis on a bunch of research studies. And there was a correlation between sustaining fat loss and metabolic adaptation. And what that means is the people in these research studies, these weight loss studies that they looked at those who were the most successful at sustaining the weight loss that they loss, long term, had the greatest amounts of metabolic adaptation still present, which we never want to wet. But if you think about it makes sense. Because if you lost 30 pounds, and then you kept it off, that's 30 pounds of metabolic adaptation happening, and it's gonna stick around. Now you might have been able to reverse diet, you might have been able to kick things up, but there's still going to be a thermostat based on your total weight that's regulating off of the weight that you're at currently, right. And that's going to show the signal of metabolic adaptation, which shows us you kind of one, you know, and if, if somebody is listening this and they have 40 pounds to lose, I promise you that having a lower maintenance, calorie intake is definitely worth losing that weight because it won't feel lower. Because at that point, it's normal for your body weight now, just like the higher intake was normal for your body weight, then it's just that you see a higher number.
Philip Pape 41:26
Your hunger signals are already regulated at that level. Yeah. And so on. Yep.
Cody McBroom 41:31
Yep. And if you think about to like, a lot of times, when people go through great weight loss, there's plenty research sport, that the most common factors with these people, you know, usually they they weigh in pretty regularly, they strength train, like there's a lot of different things, but a lot of it too is they eat volume is foods, they eat high fiber carbs, like so they're, they naturally shift to healthier habits that keep you fuller anyway, they drink more water, so on and so forth. So you won't even notice it. But I preface all that because we're controlling what we can control. And then when a plateau rises, we go, okay, we've controlled all the variables that we can control. And we're at a plateau now. And it's primarily because maybe metabolic adaptation is kicking in, but it's because I lost weight. So if you're listening to this, and you hit a plateau, and you haven't lost weight, it's because you didn't control the factors properly. But it's simple, it means that somewhere in your need dropped, you got to bump up your steps, you got to bump up your movement, your diet stopped working for you, which means maybe that you are eating less volume as foods and thermic effect of food drops, maybe you're not eating, you're not timing your nutrients, or eating the right carbs, or protein, or whatever it is to have enough recovery and energy to be in the gym and train hard, which means you're burning less calories in the gym, which you can't track accurately like I'm on an Apple Watch. But that doesn't know like, Yeah,
Philip Pape 42:38
well, you can track the symptoms of your recovery, your energy and mood, right? So bingo,
Cody McBroom 42:42
yeah, and you can see progressive overload the gym and you can rate your perceived exertion after you did some sprint intervals and tell it like, did you really go hard? Or was it dragging ass like, so if you're controlling things, right, you will only hit a plateau if, you know metabolic adaptation kicks in, and you just you stop losing weight. And so at that point, you drop calories, or you increase energy expenditure. And so increasing energy expenditure is it more difficult adjustment to make when you reach a plateau. And the reason it's more difficult adjustment to make is because there's no like, I don't know, like people could say, You know what, with calories, for example, if I'm gonna adjust your calories after we've already started, I'm gonna adjust at least five upwards of 10% calorie reduction, if I just start you on a diet, so like, if you're at maintenance, and I'm putting you into a deficit to lose fat, I'm going to go much higher than that, because we're trying to get you out of that maintenance range and start losing. And if I do it, right, I won't have to just those again for a little bit, because it's going to work for us for a while. So I might adjust at least 15, upwards of 25%, let's say, you know, there's plenty of research that even shows 3035, which is a good amount. So it's harder to adhere to when you're not in a controlled study. But 15 to 25% is a good marker. And then when you plateau, I'll just drop your calories by five to 10%, usually just five, because it just gives you another notch down and you start losing again. And then another notch down, you start losing again, with energy expenditure, editor, energy expenditure through cardio. And activity, it's hard because I can bump up step count by 10 to 20%. But at a certain point, you don't want to keep adding steps because beyond 15, your body adapts pretty easily 50,000 steps a day. So with cardio, you know, you kind of just gotta guess it's like, Alright, we're going to add 10 minutes per session, we're going to add another 30 minute cardio, you know, and usually at that point, you don't want to be using hit because you probably don't have the energy. So fatigue is higher at that point. And so
Philip Pape 44:28
the trade off is not worth it. That's good for people to know, too. Yeah,
Cody McBroom 44:31
I usually use hit cardio at the beginning of the fat loss phase, and then I'll transition it to lists or I just never use it to begin with, which is usually honestly the better bet if they have the time to do low intensity and just focus on steps. It's usually better. But you know, so for example, if I'm prepping somebody for a physique show, like if you come to me and we get you we're getting prepped for a show and we're training five days a week or six days a week. You're gonna have one cardio day, if you're doing five, no cardio days, you're doing six and we're just so that way you're training six days a week, basically one rest day step count every day when you hit a plateau and it's time to To implement cardio, you got to kind of make a dent in it. So I would say at least two if not three times a week, 30 minutes walking on a treadmill four to six hours away from your training session, so it doesn't interfere and have that interference effect with your performance of gym. And we're doing low intensity or just to burn calories, 30 minutes, and then you hit a plateau. Guess what? Now we're going to four days a week, love this week. So like, you don't have to go that route. But if you're trying to maintain muscle and you you like your food like most of us do, sometimes you'd rather spend 30 minutes walking on a treadmill or going for a walk with your dog then dropping calories further.
Philip Pape 45:29
Totally. Yeah, I'm telling clients that all the time, like we just walk a little more, so we don't have to cut that 50 calories this week or that calories.
Cody McBroom 45:36
This is this is an interesting aspect of it too. With regard to metabolic adaptation, everything. There's a lot of research to support that if you implement cardio, you will naturally eat more calories throughout the day. And you will naturally drop your knee, your body is really, really smart. It's the same reason why people will say like, Well what about fasted cardio? Well fasted cardio does burn more body fat for fuel, however, your body will upregulate its ability to use carbohydrates and glycogen throughout the day to for energy, if you use most of the fat in the morning. And so it offsets regulates balances out and you just you're at the same net calorie, so it doesn't matter. And it's so hard to trick your body with this. But the only way you can trick your body with the cardio thing. If you're tracking macros, then you know for a fact you're not going to overeat calories as long as you have the discipline to not do so. And you're you have awareness there. And then with the cardio, or the need, if you're tracking your steps. And what you should do is track your steps. And then when you go to do that programmed cardio, it's not neat, because it's intentional. Take the step counter off, do the cardio, and be sure to still hit that step count without that cardiac
Philip Pape 46:42
go. Because if you don't What about when you lift? What about you when you lift? Because that counts of steps to do you take it off,
Cody McBroom 46:48
you can if you want. So I don't, I don't personally because it's an easy way to get steps and I pace. I'm like, I'm just gonna keep getting steps. You know, so that won't change. And I'm always gonna lift. The reason we take it out with cardio is because cardio is something that's going to come into the picture when we want to ramp up calories and break your pot towel, and it's gonna go away, well reversing out, right. But that's a way we can control it to make sure metabolic adaptation doesn't do what it does and cause us to step less or eat more, because we're tracking the variables instead of just guessing. You know, and they have research through that, too. So it's,
Philip Pape 47:20
but you know, this is really because I was because my other question was coming to mind if your knee is adapting downward as you're in the deficit, and then trying to move more is step count, still a good proxy? So it probably is good enough. Right? And like you said, if you take it off for intentional cardio as well, just to keep that variable out of it. It's close enough, right? Would you say?
Cody McBroom 47:39
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And again, it's, none of these things are perfect, even macros aren't perfect, but they're the closest thing we can get to trying to control all the regulating systems of the body, you know, and if we can control those regulating systems, we can avoid them, basically auto regulating yourself out of losing more weight. And that's what they're here to do. They're here to try to now grant again, like, if you have somebody who's 5060 pounds overweight, it is far less likely to happen in the beginning, because they're still in that stage of they lose more, move more, they're also getting healthier, so their body's not going to fight them as much. The leaner you add, the more like quote, unquote, stubborn fat you have, the more you got to kind of fight your body and know this stuff. But almost everybody gets that point, it's at one point or another because if if somebody is listening this and they do have 40 pounds to lose, you still got to know this stuff. Because your body has adjusted to be like your new homeostasis is 40 pounds heavier, right. So when you try to lose 40 pounds, when you're 20 pounds down, you're so far out of the norm for your body that it's going to start to fight a little bit, even though you don't think you're at the place you should be. It'll fight back, I promise.
Philip Pape 48:45
That's, that's a great thing you said, because I was thinking, the listener might be thinking, wow, this is all this is all great for optimization, great for athletes, great for people who are further along in their journey. You want to know this stuff, right from the beginning, and track this stuff and either either do it on your own, that's kind of the approach I took. And obviously you took when you were younger, or working with a coach or an app or whatever it is. Because that'll get you the results most effectively.
Cody McBroom 49:09
Yeah, yeah, going, you know what to like, at the end of the day. We can't say this, for sure. But maybe it does happen. Those people who have 40 5060 pounds lose just to a far lesser degree. So if you know this stuff, and it's as simple as we're an Apple Watch tracking macros, what you got to do anyway, just make sure you don't let that regulate regulating system take over. Maybe you lose that 40 pounds, you won't lose even faster, because the first 20 pounds goes quicker, easier, simpler, faster, because you understand this stuff.
Philip Pape 49:34
It's true. It's true. And I've seen it with clients, I had a lot of weight to lose, you're right, especially when they're D trained. It's that that initial phase can go really good can go really well since you've got these things dialed in. Yeah, you have a few a few minutes more. Yeah, we're good. Okay, so speaking of you know, optimization, I know you've worked with some elite clients, maybe actors physique, competitors. Maybe what's the most challenging case you ever had? You don't have to name names but like the goal What was the process to get there and what you learned from that experience as a coach?
Cody McBroom 50:03
Ooh, yeah. I mean, truthfully, to be completely transparent with listeners and everybody, I've worked with some really cool people, and they're the easiest people to work with. I mean, I've worked with some, some, some professional athletes and that they're freaks. You know, you shouldn't be impressed by my ability to get a jacked athlete even more jacked and athletic. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't take so like, if somebody just does what you tell them, right? Exactly. Yeah, they're disciplined. They're, they're motivated, they make money by being better and fitter. Like, come on, you know, I even tell people that about me, it's like, hey, like, Don't compare yourself to me, because I like we're in I'm in the podcast studio right now, as we're recording this on the other side, as well as the fucking gym, I would have to like literally, like sneak out and avoid the gym to not train, it's right in front of me. And I do this for a living, like, I have a lot of accountability. So granted, I didn't once upon a time, and there's a lot of hard work and other areas of my life. But I've fallen in love with the gym. And it's very easy for me. So you know, it's it's, I don't know, I said it should all time that I'm like the person that trains. Like, let's say LeBron hires a new trainer, I'm not going to be impressed by him, you know, because making LeBron a better one is probably gonna happen. He's already fucking great in that, too. It's like, what I mean, what can you really do like, now, whoever trains the guy who is like the, like, bench rider at a, like a small college that got to the NBA, or like some, like, that's totally different, you know, or 50 pound weight loss. So yeah, I've trained a lot of people. So a couple of things that I think of that come to mind that are difficult. So like, the web people I train and work with, from a training perspective, easy, nutrition, not so easy. They're traveling all the time, they got to eat what's there, they got to get on planes, I gotta eat at a Starbucks, like, it's, it's difficult. For some of them. Highly motivated, it's just a little bit more technical. And you got to figure out more options for them. I think of one of my clients, and really good friend. Now I've gotten close to him over the years, Jake Lewers, who is the singer of August Burns Red, which is a metal band, he his was difficult to because he's not a fitness guy. He was a metal singer, you know, but he wanted to get in shape and continue being able to do what he does. And he travels around the world on tour. He also owns a nonprofit, and he owns a gym as well, actually, with full staff trainers who I mentor now. And like that's a wild lifestyle to try to figure all this out and balance it and stuff. So that one was difficult, but really, really cool. I've put people on stage for bodybuilding bikini. It's cool. But again, they're extremely motivated, easy to work with they, they're just robots with it, which is awesome. I love that. But yeah, it's hard to say man, the person that comes to mind the most and is somebody who we won't get into the whole story. I actually tell it on we're coming out of the second podcast called The Daily transformations podcast, which is where we interview our coaches and our clients. And one of my coaches hosts it and they we just tell the stories of the people that have been a part of this company. And I tell the full story there. But long story short, she, she came to us when I was a personal trainer at a gym, she had a lot of PTSD from an abusive relationship as well as abusive past. There was, I mean, not to get like more of it, but it's pretty crazy, like, gang rape, big like getting beat in it started in a weight room with football players. And so she came in and she had PTSD, around football around gyms around men, and she came in wanted to work with me and I was like 2122 year old trainer, and maybe 23 I was pretty young and she wanted to lose weight, make the pro women's football team out here in Washington State. And she wanted to be comfortable training in a gym with other men. And I'm like, Okay, this is going to be difficult. So we worked together for a few years actually, she lost 30 pounds she made the the pro women's football team play for a year and then stopped she was like I just I did what I needed to do. I believe she still remember at the gym. I mean, she she went through the whole transformation that was probably the most difficult, insane growing process I've ever been through. And I've worked with a lot of people I've helped people lose over 100 pounds more than once. I've helped again, get people on stage who II I say low level, but they're an actor. So like, sitcom stuff like that, like not head roll Brad Pitt shit, but like, you know, really cool people, man. And that one was something that just, it changed the way I processed the world for sure,
Philip Pape 54:23
man. Yeah, I mean, you never know who you're going to work with. And like you said, it's, you know, a big name is whatever, it's the person, the individual their challenges in life, probably a lot that you can relate to, even if you had didn't have that specific experience. And when someone comes back to you a few months later and says, you know, yeah, I got my physical transformation. But look at all these other things that are better in my life. That that has made you feel great.
Cody McBroom 54:45
Yeah, it was really, really cool, man. It was like it was life changing for her and for me, honestly. Yeah, I
Philip Pape 54:51
think I think you told that story on on your podcast before. I think it sounds familiar. Like a few months back.
Cody McBroom 54:55
They were almost at 900 episodes.
Philip Pape 54:57
I know. There you go. No idea. That's Hello. Yes. So how's podcasting made you a better coach than?
Cody McBroom 55:03
Man? It just, it's, it's a form of I mean, it's one of my favorite platforms. You know, it's it's the, I think it's allowed me to articulate topics really well, because you can authentically work through science and coaching application, like better than any other platform, you know. And it gives me it gives me a platform that I can do so without a time barrier, you know, because I can turn on the mic out here. And I can talk on topic for an hour. And I know that I'm not doing a client check in or on the phone with somebody or in a meeting that has a time cap or has somebody, one person on their screen that is on a time crunch. Like, it's not specific to one person, so they don't need this answer right now to figure shit out, right? It's something I can just teach. And so it's made me a better teacher and communicator, without a doubt, which in turn makes me a way better coach, it's taught me to study better, because if you're gonna talk on topic, you better study at first, you know, so I've really had to learn how to find research, find information, study it, educate myself, and then learn how to interpret it in my own way. And then, I'd also say more than anything, it's made me a better content creator, but more than you think it was, like, the, to me, at least I feel like it was, it was made for me like, this is the perfect platform for me and how I am as a human. So I was very grateful to get into podcasting, because it allowed everything else I do to just resonate with people better and hit people better because they can, they can listen to the real me talk for an hour. And I don't know, I've always said like, if you can talk on a topic for an hour, you're probably you probably know what you're doing. You know, it's a good sign for people to learn how to trust you, and to really get a good sense of who you are. And it allows me to authentically and transparently like talk about who I am as a person. And that I don't know, that translates into people's headphones in hit Tom so well, for people.
Philip Pape 56:51
I'm feeling you mad 100% Because if I had to write articles, or, you know, do social media reels, and that was the only way to get to people, it just I couldn't it couldn't happen. Like just being able to, like you said, think through things. And even even the research people get you. I know you do q&a episodes all the time. I'm sure every single one of those questions comes in part of the answer, you know, and part of it's like, let me go just double check, or let me do some research or, you know, and it's just learn, learn, learn, like, you know, just accelerates it. So, I totally feel you, man, and you can't be fake. I mean, we're here just having this conversation. You never know where it's gonna go. This couldn't happen. 20 years ago, I always like to ask because it's, it's pretty cool.
Cody McBroom 57:28
Yeah, it is really cool. And you get to meet connect with a lot of cool people. Because like, for sure, I used to pay for consoles all the time. And maybe like, right, so like, what's your goal you want to I'm like, I just wanna talk to you, man. I just want to like pick your brain. Shit, you're more experienced coaches wanna talk to you? And then podcasts came? I was like, Wait, so I don't have to pay for this anymore. I can just I can just say,
Philip Pape 57:49
you know how much I just got from asking you these questions today, right, then now is going to help me with my clients and their future episodes. So
Cody McBroom 57:55
and it makes me a better podcaster. It gets me far more people. It's a win win all around. It's so great. I love it.
Philip Pape 58:00
Yeah, yeah. So all right, maybe one or two questions, and then I'll let you go. What are you working on? Now? That's like, besides your app, and stuff like that, the industry industry is changing a lot, even in 10 years? Like, are there trends? Are there advancements? Are there technologies that you're really excited about? Or experimenting with? That? You know, you want to talk about?
Cody McBroom 58:18
Honestly, no, man, I think that there's, there's been so many things to come out. But nothing has really stood out to me as and we tried a lot of things. But there's, I'm yet to find anything that is like, groundbreaking, I think that at least in the tech world, you know, like I'm working on a lot. I mean, we're always improving our systems. Right now, I'm really working on building the business from, like a role structure perspective. So like the people on my staff, making sure that we're on our own roles we have, we know who reports to who, for what and who's in charge of what and like just working very organized in efficiently so that we can grow at a better rate. Um, I'm working on reaching out to other communities and doing seminars. So I'm actually like in the process of seminar here next month, and then Portland, hopefully next month in New York in September, we're working on something in San Diego, hopefully, so really traveling and get in front of other gyms and in communities and stuff like that. But now that's tech, you know, it's I mean, the apps tech but I'm not doing anything, right systems and people exactly. So the app is something I'm working on that I'm in meetings with developers all the time just to prove things and make sure it's moving in the right direction. The apparel stuff took a pause because we had to restructure we had some trademark issues and we had to kind of go back and kind of get our ducks in a row it's a new industry so we're going to be coming out with a new line here next month and then another one in the summer and so getting that back rolling is gonna be exciting. Yeah, and just just more of everything man I just I love I love creation. So anything business wise that allows me to be creative? I love it
Philip Pape 59:45
that's that's your you're in everything man that you're in everything. It's always an inspiration. Man, I hear you doing all this because you know, it pushes pushes the rest of us who want to get there someday to to keep going. Because I always look at it as like I want to be surrounded by people who who are beyond me that that push me to the next level. So Good. Yeah, good stuff. Okay, so I always get asked this question of all of all guests, and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?
Cody McBroom 1:00:11
Yeah, that's a good question, man.
Philip Pape 1:00:14
I don't know. It's paid off a lot.
Cody McBroom 1:00:17
It was a really good podcast. I mean, we covered a lot with with just training and nutrition and everything, man, I think that. Had you stumped me on that dude. I don't know. I don't ever like that's the funny thing is because like, it's, as soon as we got on, I was like, I know, you said some topics. I don't remember what they were, I didn't really look at them. And I do that because I like to just go in and just like, let's just authentically talk and you know, be so to me. I don't ever have expectations, except having a good time. You know, so to me like this, this is perfect. We're shooting the shit. We're talking about stuff we love. And I just hope that like, I mean, I guess the only question I would say is, what do you hope the listeners get out of it? You know, and because I was about to say that anyway. And I just hope that I hope somebody learned something, I hope somebody gets value from it to me, I'm like, I have a big mission this year. Like, every time I talk to somebody on video, every time I talk somebody on the phone, every time I see somebody in person, every time I have somebody asked me something, any interaction that I have any single day of my entire life, I've made this commitment this year at 23 hit I was like this is what I want to focus on is I want them to leave with more value than they came to me with. I want them to leave in a better mood, I want them to leave with a new piece of like knowledge, just a little nugget that can help them improve. I want them to have more positivity, more self belief, confidence, anything like I want to be the person that puts energy and other people, you know, when they step in room with me, so I just hope everybody listening gets that. Like that's more than anything, you know?
Philip Pape 1:01:43
100% they did, because I did and I know everyone listening, you know, is here for that reason to have that growth mindset. So thanks a lot, man. Where can listeners learn more about you?
Cody McBroom 1:01:53
Yeah, so Instagram at Cody McBroom. I post every day there. Everything else is on tailored coaching method.com We write articles almost every week. Tailored live podcast is on there as well. We have three episodes that go out a week we're starting another podcast soon we got YouTube every other week. Like we're pumping shit out like crazy. And it's all free like obviously we coach that's what we do for a living otherwise we couldn't do it for free but we got a lot of a lot of great content for free so go check any of that out.
Philip Pape 1:02:19
Yeah, man your purpose is clear, you know in the world here and the stuff this stuff means a lot to a lot of people out there so I'll put your your IG and tailored coaching method.com in the show notes. Man, you brought so much value today for a fact. Thanks again for coming on.
Cody McBroom 1:02:34
Yeah, absolutely, man. Thanks for having me.
Philip Pape 1:02:38
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 69: What to do FIRST – Lose Fat, Build Muscle, or Body Recomposition?
Today, I answer a common question many people have when starting their fitness journey: What should you do first to get results on your body recomposition? Should you focus on losing fat, building muscle, or doing both at the same time? I discuss seven common scenarios and share a 6-12 month plan for each scenario.
Today, I answer a common question many people have when starting their fitness journey: What should you do first to get results on your body recomposition? Should you focus on losing fat, building muscle, or doing both at the same time?
I discuss seven common scenarios and share a 6-12 month plan for each scenario. You can choose the best approach based on your goals, starting point, and personal preferences. Plus, I'll share some common mistakes people make when pursuing their fitness goals, so you can avoid them and stay on track. I also recommend an app that is particularly helpful for tracking your macros, making it easier to manage your nutrition goals.
Do you have any fitness questions you want me to answer, or do you want to give feedback? You can now send a voicemail, and we might even feature it on one of our future episodes!
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:44] Listener feedback
[4:58] Six to ten weeks maintenance phase, establishing your habits
[6:47] Common mistakes
[12:23] Scenario 1: You need to lose 10-20 Lbs
[15:24] Scenario 2: You need to lose 20-40 Lbs
[15:24] Scenario 3: You need to lose 40-50-60 Lbs or more
[24:17] Scenario 4: You're at the lower end of skinny-fat
[26:19] Scenario 5: You're untrained and lean
[29:33] Scenario 6: You're trained and lean
[31:22] Scenario 7: You're trained and hitting the upper limit of your body fat
[35:20] Outro
Episode resources:
Ep 25: Lose 30 Pounds (or More) the Right Way and Keep it Off
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
Overall, Are we pursuing a healthy dietary pattern? Are we maintaining our weight? Are we lifting properly? Are we getting enough sleep all the things? Okay, so if you if you need to lose a little bit of weight, I wouldn't actually lose weight, I would actually go for body recomp take advantage of being in a sufficient energy environment, and take advantage of those newbie gains for building muscle and losing fat. And then after you do that, you can decide what to do next. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights
Philip Pape 00:51
community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I hope you enjoyed our last episode number 68, with Adrian Moreno, where we talked about tapping into your deepest emotions and telling your power story to unlock your potential. So go check that out. Today for episode 69. We are answering a question that I get all the time from listeners potential clients, current clients, and that is what should you do first, to get the best results with your body composition. Should you lose fat, build muscle, aim for that magic of body recomp or body composition where you lose fat and build muscle at the same time. And today I'm going to dive into scenarios that the vast majority of people fall into, I'm going to explain what your six to 12 month plan would look like. If you want the best results that balances your health physique. And performance. We're not talking about the extremes here. We're just talking about the general population what most people are looking forward to look and feel great. Now having said that, these are all designed to focus all of your energy at one goal at a time, so that you can do the whole process more efficiently. Get to that finish line, get the quick wins, and then be in a position a really good position to go after the next goal. Now before we get into the topic, I do have an announcement, you can now send me an audio voicemail directly to the show very easily. Whether you have a question feedback, you just want to say hello, just go to pod inbox.com/wits & weights, or even easier, just click the q&a voicemail link in my show notes again, the q&a voicemail link, you can send me a question, and I will play it live on the next episode. And then answer the question or if it's just feedback, I can play it as well. Speaking of listener feedback, I did want to take a moment to read a few of the recent five star reviews from listeners who I'm very, very grateful for. In fact, I'm just grateful for the opportunity to have this show and this platform to be able to share all of the same information that's helped me and I know will help you as well. So just just three short reviews I want to read. The first is from Lady Blackwood, quote, I've struggled with my weight for many years, one yo yo diet after another. I've been searching for hope and a way out of the endless spiral. And I'm so glad I found this podcast. I mean, I see something like that. And it gives me hope that at least something of what we're sharing here is making a difference out there. And that's what we're all about. We have a review from Brian Montes, who says the host is extremely knowledgeable about fitness and weight loss. The episodes provide actionable steps that you can implement immediately to help on a weight loss journey. Even if you're not looking to lose weight. This podcast helps you maintain a healthy lifestyle. And I want to recognize that the detail the nuances of that review because this this is definitely not a show about weight loss. In fact, I try not to use the phrase weight loss very often I usually use the term fat loss. But this listener definitely recognize that the things we do have a pleasant side effect of helping with our weight if that is something we struggle with, and need to reduce for our health as part of overall health and improving our body composition. And finally, Nicolas Natali writes, Philip is knowledgeable in this space, and enthusiastically provides strategies to shred fat and get jacked. I enjoy his excitement around the topic most. And again, I just I love it because everybody gets something a little bit different. And I am excited about that. So I'm very passionate and if it comes through too much, I don't apologize because that's me. And I hope you really enjoy that aspect of this podcast. So I am truly grateful for this opportunity to create the show, let alone impact the lives of anyone listening for the better. And I always always appreciate hearing from listeners, whether it's through these reviews by email by social or now by voicemail. So with that, let's get into today's topic. What to do first Should I lose fat? Should I go into that calorie deficit and lose fat right away? Should I spend some time building muscle and being in a surplus, or should I try for body re composition? First things first, we're going to assume that you've already gone through a roughly six to 10 week maintenance phase, where you establish your habits, habits, like tracking your food, getting sufficient protein strength training, at least, I would say three days a week, getting a decent step count. So six 810 1000 steps, improving your sleep hygiene and managing stress. If you haven't gone through this foundational phase yet, I wouldn't even consider going after a specific body composition goal until you do, because it is that important to being successful. And if you're, if this is the first show you've ever listened to with me. And this is a surprise or you're wondering what this is all about. Go back and check out episode 25. Now the title is lose 30 pounds or more the right way and keep it off, which maybe it's not really about, it's not just about losing a lot of weight. Even if you don't have a weight to lose, I actually spend a good amount of time and they're going into detail about this metabolic prep phase or primer phase or pre diet maintenance, whatever you call it. So you don't have to listen to a whole episode but but listen for that section, and how I describe it in the steps to get there. And this is what I do with all my clients. When we start, we don't go right into a diet, we don't go right into a muscle building phase, we get things normalized first. Now, once you know your maintenance calories, and you have solid practices in place for training, steps, and recovery, you're ready to go after your transformation. So first, I want to address not first I've said first multiple times today, but let's quickly address some of those mistakes, the general mistakes that people make when going through this kind of transformation. And by the way, I've been there for years and years and years, I tried to transform my body. And it was always either random, it was an extreme, it was restrictive, or I just didn't know what I was doing. Right. So I would get two pieces, right. And I would miss the third piece or or something like that. So these are the big mistakes that I see. Okay, and the first one is setting an unrealistic goal. I'm all for ambitious goals, for sure. Okay, but once we go through all the scenarios and expectations today, you'll know what I mean by unrealistic, I would rather you achieve significant progress within the realm of possibility, even if that that possibility is could still be a far reach from where you are today. I'd rather you do that then overreach for some massive progress that and then be unable to stick with the process to get there. And then that sets you back even longer, right. So it's that fine balance, setting the unrealistic goal second, being inconsistent with your training. Okay, while you're going for building muscle recomp, or muscle or fat loss, the training is one of the key principles that have to be in there the whole time. So you have to be consistent, right? You can't do it three days this week, take a week off than two days and take a week off and then some random timeframe. And then finally you're back at it, and so on, because you're going to leave gains on the table, or you're going to lose muscle during fat loss without that consistency. Now, the next mistake people make is not tracking your numbers. And I say it that way. Because I don't have to be dogmatic about which numbers you track. If you're working with me, as a client, we're tracking everything basically. Because I feel that the the more numbers you have, the more data you have, the better decisions you can make. At the cost of a little bit more inconvenience, I get it. But we're talking calorie and macro intake scale and weight trend over time, your body circumference measurements, your lifting progression, you know, I want to see are you going up in weight every session on your squat? Biofeedback, like hunger, energy, stress, sleep, and so on how you look and feel, which could be measured by photos by the mirror and how your clothes fit. So all of these are objective measures. Yeah, even how you look that is objective because it's something that can be quantified visually, and then compared to overtime. And then last mistake people make is, well, I guess that was the last mistake. But basically, if you are if you are consistent, and you continue to adjust your plan based on all of this, including your numbers, you will inevitably make progress. And to hit those precisely, in my opinion, you'll need to track your food. Now if you're listening to us, you're like, I don't track macros. I don't track food, either. You've done it before and you've developed into version, where you can do it pretty well like good enough for a fat loss or muscle building phase. Or you're just refusing to accept that this is necessary to make progress. And it is, if you don't like this, if you don't want to do this, you can still make progress. But it could be inconsistent, it could take longer than you'd like. And it might result in a less optimal final body composition, and then require you to go through multiple phases or iterations to get there, you're just going to lack the information you need to make those adjustments and decisions. And if you're cool with that, knowing that it might take longer fine, but I highly recommend tracking your food. And the app that I use all my clients use, it's called macro factor. I would look for it in the app store. And you could use my code Wits &, Weights, all one word, and that'll extend your free trial. You don't have to use it. But if you do, it supports me. So I thank you for that. Again, the code is Wits & Weights. In my opinion, macro factor blows away every other app, and I've tried them all I've looked at them all my fitness pal, chronometer, carbon, RP, all of them. And it just it's far superior, in my opinion. So feel free to pause this episode right now. Go download macro factor, enter my code, Wits & Weights, and start tracking your food and weight. I mean, literally do it right now pause the episode and go download it, check it out, even take some time to play around with it, you can send me a message with a question, I'll point you to resources and help you get it going. Because this is gonna give you a ton of helpful data to make progress. Okay, and you're gonna hit your goals more quickly and more easily. Alright, with all that out of the way, let's get into it. Unless I mentioned otherwise, this, the scenarios I'm going to talk about the first the first five of the seven scenarios assumes you're either untrained. So you've never lifted weights properly or intelligently before. And that was me for like 10 years, I lifted weights, but I wasn't doing it the right way. And this assumes you've never done it, you know, with progressive overload to properly build muscle, or it assumes that you are D trained, which means you used to have some muscle and use to train, but you've regressed after months or probably years of not training. And then I'm going to cover trained individuals in the last two scenarios. Okay, so scenario one, is when you have some weight to lose like 10 to 20 pounds, I think that's a good range 10 to 20 pounds. And there's a lot of people who maybe, maybe you've dieted multiple times over the years, and or maybe you're getting a little bit older, and that fat starting to creep up, because your metabolism slowing down, because you don't quite have the muscle mass anymore. And I would say if you're there or at the higher end of skinny fat, right, and you kind of know who you are where you don't really look quote unquote heavy on the outside while you're wearing clothes. But you know, you've got some soft spots, and you want to get rid of them. Okay, so in this scenario, where you have a little bit of weight, or you're a higher end of skinny fat, I would go for body re composition. Okay, this is the only scenario where I'm going to say that. So body composition is where you don't gain any weight or lose any weight. But you build muscle while losing fat at the same time. And to do this, you'll have to stay at your maintenance calories. So all this stuff I just went over and spent all that time talking about with the pre diet maintenance, with tracking your food with using macro factor that needs to all be set up and cranking along for about six to 10 weeks, so you know what your maintenance calories are. And then you could precisely go after body recomp because even being at maintenance still requires some precision to make sure you're not going in the direction you don't want to go. So in this phase, what I would do is I would monitor things like my circumference measurements, photos, and how your clothes are fitting because your scale weights not going to change. Right, you're actually intentionally trying not to go up or down in scale weight, but you're trying to improve how you feel in your clothes, the fit, your strength, your lifts, and your biceps, all these other things, your lifts should progress. They may not be crazy progression, like they might be if you're eating more, but they shouldn't stall they should definitely progress if you're a newbie. The other thing is hunger, digestion, things like that shouldn't really be an issue because you're getting sufficient calories. You're at least at maintenance, you're in that mildly anabolic environment. If hunger and digestion are an issue. We want to look at our food selection and pay attention to things like like volume and fiber. But I don't want to chase hacks to fix these things. I want to look at the whole picture. Right? Are we overall Are we pursuing a healthy dietary pattern? Are we maintaining our weight? Are we lifting properly? Are we getting enough sleep all the things Okay, so if you if you need to lose a little bit of weight I wouldn't actually Lose weight, I would actually go for body recomp take advantage of being in a sufficiently high energy and sufficient energy environment, and take advantage of those newbie gains for building muscle and losing fat. And then after you do that, you can decide what to do next. Okay? Because you may find that you look great, you're perfectly where you want to be. And you're actually 10 pounds heavier than you thought you needed to be.
Philip Pape 15:23
Scenario two, is you have even more weight to lose, we're gonna say between 20 and 40 pounds. Okay, so this is a decent amount of weight to lose, but you're not considered in that obese level of excessive unhealthy weight 20 to 40 pounds, I would go for conservative fat loss, okay, conservative meaning for about 12 to 16 weeks, you want to lose between a quarter to point seven 5% of your body weight per week. So you may have heard me talk about on the show, the range of fat loss, that's considered acceptable without losing muscle is point two, five to 1%. So I'm kind of clipping that upper end 2.75%. So basically, you're looking at around a half percent body weight a week. So if you weigh 200 pounds, that's a pound a week, right? This is a balance between consistency and progress. Because if you go too aggressive, you're just not going to be eating very much, you're going to be a little bit, I'm not gonna say miserable. But I mean, it's gonna be tough, tougher on yourself, which risks you fallen off the wagon and not being consistent, and not making progress. So we want to make progress. But we want to go aggressive enough so that the fat also comes off. So this is where 12 To 16 week plan quarter to 7.75%. So around a half percent of body weight. Now here's what might happen when you start this, you might initially see a weight plateau, because you're getting body recomp. Just like in scenario one, you're actually getting body recomp in the early phases, and not really even trying to, you're actually trying to lose fat, trying to make the scale weight go down. But you're building up your muscle building is outpacing your fat loss, and your scale weight starts to plateau. Again, this is where we need to have our body measurements, our clothes, how they feel how we look, all those things, because I have to deal with clients with this all the time where they have 30 pounds of 30 pounds to lose. And the first few weeks when we start the fat loss phase, it doesn't go as fast as we'd like. But then all of a sudden their waist circumference comes down. And they're getting new PRs on all their lifts for weeks, if not months. That's a good sign. Okay. So your lifting will probably progress modestly. If you're beginner, it may plateau after a while. But I wouldn't expect a big plateau early on, because you're new to it. Okay, so this is kind of another sweet spot where you're getting a little bit of recomp and you're getting some fat loss. And if you see plateaus, going beyond that, I would make sure your step count is high enough, right, we sometimes forget about that, as we go into a diet, our natural movements and tend to slow down or unconscious movements. And we just move less to make up for it without even thinking about it. And so we have to consciously track our steps and keep that expenditure a little bit higher. Okay, so that's scenario two, losing 20 to 40 pounds conservative fat loss. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're looking to connect with like minded listeners on their health and fitness journeys, come join our free Facebook community. It's a supportive space where you can share your experiences, ask questions, and access free guides and weekly trainings, just search for Wits, & Weights on Facebook, or find the link in the show notes. Now back to the show. Scenario number three is if you have a lot of weight to lose, so we're talking 40 5060 pounds or more. And this is a pretty simple scenario, it's aggressive, we want to go for aggressive fat loss. So similar timeframe to start as the last scenario, we're gonna say 12 to 16 weeks. But I would keep it up to the upper end more of a half to 1% of your body weight per week. Because you're at a much higher body weight, you can probably you're probably at a higher expenditure, you can handle roughly the same amount of calories as somebody lighter than you. But that's going to put you into a bigger deficit, meaning you'll lose fat more quickly. Now, not always, this is why I give you a range of a half to 1%. If your metabolism is pretty low, it's going to be a little more challenging. But what I would do is I would plan for 12 to 16 weeks monitor all the things stay on top of your expenditure. You know, if you're using macro factor, you'll know exactly what you need every week. And then use diet breaks if you have to break it up into longer phases. So if you're 200 pounds and you go 1% A week, after 16 weeks, you're gonna lose roughly 16 or roughly 32 pounds it's still not 50 pounds, right? So taking a break bringing your carbs up and getting back to maintenance for several weeks or even months is is really good psychologically. Okay site logically, Don't believe the hype about refeeds, about taking three days or a week, and you're cranking up your leptin and everything recovers, and all of a sudden, you could continue your diet at a healthier state with more calories, it doesn't quite work that way. As soon as you start dieting, again, you're going to readapt back to where you were. But here's the thing, a refeed, or a diet break can give you a mental boost. And there is something to be said about the extra performance in the gym, and the recovery and the sleep and the lack of stress, that does give your body a little bit of a reset. So that when you continue to diet, you're fresh when you start, and there is that to be said for it. Okay. So when we're losing 50 pounds or more, it's all about fat loss, we have to use our biofeedback and track our hunger, we don't want to let ourselves get ravenous. We're all of a sudden we binge, we overeat, we emotionally, we have to do all the strategies and planning that we like to talk about on this show, like meal prepping, meal planning, eating lots of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and so on. And tracking, tracking, tracking, tracking your numbers and making being aware of what adjustments you need to make. Now, here's one thing that might happen. And this could have happened in the last scenario as well. But I especially see it here, when you're just on a prolonged fat loss phase is the car the calories can start to get somewhat low, and you're trying to keep your protein high. And all of a sudden, you're like, hi, I really don't have much room for fats and carbs, my carbs are down like 100 grams, or even less, and I'm feeling sluggish, and I'm feeling sore. And I'm not recovering and my sleep is a little bit restless. This is where we can say alright, we don't need that many that much protein. If you're at like a gram per pound, we can go down to point seven 11.6 If we have too, and give all that to carbs, and maybe a little bit of fats, sometimes it's the fats that's too low, to be honest, especially for women, it was what I found, just getting that extra 10 grams a day could make all the difference. So we have to make these compromises in these trade offs. The idea here is to be consistent, make progress, lose fat period, okay, and a little bit of compromise between some of these variables goes a long way. So this is a mind game, we have to get ahead of issues when they come up. And don't be afraid to take a break. Maybe it's for a holiday, maybe it's for a trip something else where you plan in the extra calories, rather than it being something you didn't, that you lost control of. Alright, and then along the way, you're also probably going to get some re composition because you're new at this. Okay, I've had clients who were 50s 5070 pounds overweight. And when they started, because they hadn't been training or moving, and now they are they start losing weight, and also on their expenditure starts going up at the same time. And their calories don't have to change, like they start at 2000, let's say 2200 calories, and they start losing 1% a week. And all of a sudden, they are let's say not 1% a week, let's say they're going to half a percent a week, and all of a sudden their expenditure comes up and they start losing at a faster rate without changing their calories. Or they increase the rate by barely changing their calories, or I'm sorry, that's what I just said the same way in two different the same thing in two different ways I
Philip Pape 23:17
apologize. So you could go at a faster rate by saying it staying at the same calories because your expenditure is increasing. Or you could increase your calories and eat more and stay at the same rate. That's where I was trying to go. Okay, so you might be eating 2000 calories, and then all of a sudden you could eat 2200 calories and continue losing at the same rate. That's that's a really nice place to be. Okay, so that was the third scenario that was a large amount of fat loss. And by the way, the reason I suggest these specific directions has to do with that balance I mentioned before between health performance and aesthetics are physique, right, we were trying to balance them all, but going after one goal at a time. So I'm sort of giving you the most efficient goal to go after, based on your starting point. And by the way, when you do that, eventually you will end up in another scenario, most likely the trained scenarios that I'm going to get to. Alright, so scenario four, is you're at the lower end of skinny fat. This is where you really don't need to be any lighter on the scale, right? If you have your clothes on, you kind of look skinny. You know, none of these words were meant to be judgmental. It's just our language, we understand what we mean by them. And you don't need to lose any weight but you need to add muscle. So in this case, I would go for what for conservative muscle gain, okay, some people might recommend trying for body recomp here, but honestly, I think you can stand to push it a little bit on the gaining side. And you're still going to have somebody recomp while gaining which would be awesome. Meaning you might actually lose some fat while you're gaining weight. You may not, but the amount of fat gain should be pretty darn minimal if you're doing it in this conservative fashion. So we want to go for a six to nine month plan gaining around point 1% body weight per week, this is as lean gains as we get, because I would recommend between point one and point two 5% When you gain and here I'm talking about the lower end of that point 1%. So you're barely gonna gain any weight, but you'll be in an anabolic environment to feed that muscle building for your newbie gains. Okay, so it's like a lean gain slash body recomp and you're maximizing muscle growth, you're limiting fat gain to near zero, or at least behind the pace of your muscle gain, meaning the muscle to fat ratio is actually higher than one to one. For somebody like me who has been training for a while, it's the opposite, right? I tend to gain a little more fat than I do muscle as I gained, just because it's hard for me to to add additional muscle in absolute terms. But if you're skinny fat and you've never trained, you're gonna like pack on that muscle and not much fat. And that's what we want to go for. And throughout this process, you just got to enjoy learning to eat more, which can be a challenge for some people, especially if you're a hard gainer, which we'll talk about in a second. And you can enjoy lifting more, you should be making really steady progress session after session week after week on your lifts. Okay, so the next scenario is you are lean and untrained, which is lean is different than skinny fat. skinny fat is lightweight on the scale, but you have your body composition has a fairly high body fat percentage, which is what most people are after, at once again into their let's say 40s or 50s. They've died at a bunch of times and haven't really trained properly. Okay, but they but they keep dieting and getting their scale way down. This scenario. Scenario five is when you're lean and untrained. And it's because you either haven't dieted very often, you know, maybe you've just sat at that weight for years with with no muscle, or you're young, like in your late teens or early 20s and just haven't had the opportunity to gain much fat. This could also include hard gainers. Okay, hard gainers, people who, on the surface seem to have trouble gaining weight, and I'll explain why that is. So in this scenario, if you're lean, and you're untrained lean, you don't have much body fat and you're light and you haven't trained go for aggressive muscle gain period. So if you're 2020 year old male, and you just are skinny, go for this go for all the gains you can six to nine months gaining point to 2.4% body weight per week. This is not a dreamer book, this is not trying to gain 1% Every week, because that's that is going to gain too much fat, but it is going on the more aggressive side. So point 3.3 5.4% of your body weight per week. Point 4% body weight per week is what 1.2 1.3% per month. So that's a decent amount of weight gain. You know, after after nine months, you're talking over 10%. So you have to be okay with gaining some fat when you do this. And in fact, I would welcome it, that extra fat is gonna allow you to move more weight as the lighter lift more. All right, enjoy that the progress on your lifts enjoy filling out your shirt. Like those are the things you have to pay attention to if you're talking about body Recombinase Hey, my biceps are filling out my shirt. Now if you're a hard gainer, if you have trouble gaining weight, it's a very real thing, where because every time you eat more food, every time you eat another 100 calories, your body might actually up regulate and burn 50 more calories. And so your metabolism is is catching up to your intake not all the way. But enough where you feel like man, I have to keep eating more and more just to gain weight. And in that case, the reality is yes, you're gonna have to eat more and more. This is why we want to track you something like macro factor where it gives you the surplus you need to stay in that to stay in that rate of gain. But now you have to start looking at strategies how to do that, right, eating more fats, eating more calorie dense foods, things like that, without going into the processed foods all the time, territory or eating fast foods or milkshakes or whatever. There's a good balance, there's foods like nuts, oil, you know, adding oil to your foods, things like that, that are nice little, I don't want to say tricks. They're just ways to scale up the calorie density to gain more if you're in that scenario. So the big thing here is to optimize things like your workout nutrition, and your performance so that you could maximize that rapid, you know, maximize that muscle growth. Okay, lifting really hard heavy training properly and getting that recovery. Okay, so scenario six and seven are if you are trained. Okay, so scenario six is if you're trained, and you're lean, so you've been training and you've gone through a cut or a fat loss phase, and now you're at the low end of where you'd like to be. So you're basically you might see your six pack, you might see a muscle definition. It all depends on who you are. For a male this might be 10% 12%, body fat, something like that. Maybe it's ate, it really depends on you. But it's that lower limit you've set for yourself. In that case, we're gonna go for moderate muscle gain. So this is just a standard building phase, which you know what scenario seven is going to be, it's gonna be the opposite of that. So I always recommend if you're trained, if you're getting back to a new building phase, six to nine months, point, one 2.25% of your body weight per week, the standard range, monitor your numbers, use your measurements, monitor your look and feel your photos. And I like to use the Navy formula, along with my photos and how I look in the mirror to track my body fat. So once I'm doing this, it's pretty consistent. I know my limits at the top end and the bottom end, how much body fat do I want to allow myself to get to, and then how low do I want to go, where I kind of toggle back and forth between this quote unquote, lean but healthy range, not so lean that you're unhealthy, you know, kind of that bodybuilding range, and not getting to where you're an unhealthy level of fat for things like your blood pressure, resting heart rate, and so on. So, again, you just want to always be training hard, you want to use periodization. This is where you can start having fun as you become an intermediate trainee, and incorporate other modes of programming like conjugate, right west side or bodybuilding training, four and five day splits, power building, and so on. Okay, and then scenario seven is just the opposite of that you are trained, and now you're hitting that upper limit of your body fat, which for some of us, it's higher than we think meaning?
Philip Pape 31:33
Well, it goes in both directions. Either you're the type of person that feels like, oh, no, I'm getting too fat. And you're really not that fat, you just might have a little extra belly there, which is not a bad thing when you're trying to lift a lot of weight. And it's healthy to have a little like a little bit of fat there. Or you might be the type of person that's okay, getting way up into the safer for males 20% of body fat before you cut it, guess what, it's all okay, it depends on your priorities. For me, I want to keep my health markers in a good place. So I tend to live a little bit lighter than some of my, you know, lifting buddies would want me to stay but that's just me. Okay, I'm in my 40s. I've had back issues I've had, you know, health, minor health issues, and I like to keep everything in check. However, I am in the middle of a nine month building phase. And I'm gonna push it a little bit when I get to the end, but then I'm gonna probably push it back the other way with my cut. So if you're the upper lip, eliminate your body fat, here's where you're gonna go for a fat loss phase at your preference. This is the only one that where I leave some wiggle wiggle room. So you're either going to do something like 12 or even 16 weeks at like a quarter 2.75% per week, or you're going to shorten that do like an eight to 12 week mini cut at the full 1% per week. So if your expenditures nice and high, if you've built a lot of muscle, you know, I am finding more and more flexibility now that I can eat more. So when I go on a diet, it's really not that much of a struggle anymore. I can go really aggressive and get it over with quickly. Okay, you've done this before, keep everything consistent scale on your meals, focus on volume, you know, don't change anything drastically just hit those targets those calories, the protein and so on. Okay, so let's recap the seven scenarios. Scenario one a little bit of weight to lose body composition. Scenario two little more weight to lose 20 to 40 pounds, conservative fat loss, scenario three, a lot of weight to lose 50 or more pounds, aggressive fat loss. Scenario four is skinny fat, I would gain muscle conservatively. Scenario five is your lean and untrained, I would gain muscle aggressively. Scenario six is you're trained at the lower limit of your body fat, you want to do a typical standard muscle building phase. And then scenario seven, you are trained and you're hitting the upper limit of your body fat, I would just go for fat loss at your preference as aggressively as you want. Alright, I hope you now have an exact starting point based on your current body composition from those scenarios. But if you do still have questions, and there always are specific questions for your circumstance, I'm always happy to jump on a free 30 minute call to go over your individual case come up with a six to 12 month plan that works for you. Just use the link in my show notes for that free call. And my goal of these calls is to get you answers. It's not to sell you anything I really want to get you an answer because I know how frustrating that is for me to not know what to do. I don't mention my services. I don't mention my pricing unless you ask me. So my mission here is to impact as many lives as possible. And if you're educated about evidence based fitness and nutrition, this rubs off on everyone around you. It makes us all healthier and happier. And this is where my passion comes from and I hope it does for you as well listening to this next week for episode 70. I'm having a conversation with none other than Cody McBee room where we dive into topics related to looking like you lift from using data like we talked about today, to balancing aesthetics and performance to overcoming plateaus. Make sure to follow or subscribe to the show to the Wits & Weights podcast right now in your favorite podcast app so you don't miss it. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 68: How to Increase Your Emotional Fitness, Tell Your Power Story, and Reach a Massive Audience with Adrian Moreno
My guest today, Adrian Moreno, taught me how to bring this show’s important, life-changing message to an even wider audience by guesting on other podcasts, a topic we dive into. If you own a business, recently started one, or are thinking about it, or even if you have a powerful story you want to share with the world, you’ll want to listen all the way through because his approach is both unique and effective, why is why I use it myself.
My guest today, Adrian Moreno, taught me how to bring this show’s important, life-changing message to an even wider audience by guesting on other podcasts, a topic we dive into. If you own a business, recently started one, or are thinking about it, or even if you have a powerful story you want to share with the world, you’ll want to listen all the way through because his approach is both unique and effective, why is why I use it myself.
Adrian began his career in the health and fitness space while gaining unparalleled experience with hypnosis & NLP (neuro-linguistic programming), establishing himself as a respected transformation specialist through the power of hypnotherapy.
Adrian went against his mentors' teachings, focused on getting booked on top podcasts, and grew his hypnotherapy company to $250,000 in 12 months. He now teaches others how to replicate his success.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________
Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:50] Adrian’s experience in health and fitness, hypnotherapy, and helping business owners
[6:45] The day he decided to change his life
[12:40] How he started as a personal trainer
[20:01] The story that kept him going after every rejection
[23:58] His introduction to hypnotherapy
[27:28] Changing the way you see yourself
[30:01] Hypnotherapy and how it helps someone with their health and fitness
[36:10] The most common emotional and mental barriers and strategies to break through these
[38:56] Misconceptions and skepticism about hypnotherapy
[40:40] Carol is grateful to Philip for helping her be consistent with nutrition and understand the importance of taking rest days
[45:00] How Adrian came up with the idea that podcasting was the next big thing to find customers for fitness and other businesses
[1:00:12] A 3-step framework to getting booked on podcasts to grow your business, and his results
[1:07:38] What if you think your story isn’t unique or powerful? How do you make the best impression during podcast interviews?
[1:12:06] Why you should do your thing
[1:16:54] Outro
Episode resources:
Go to thepowerpitch.co/pdf for Adrian’s free PDF, How I Got Booked On 52 Podcasts In 12 Months And Generated 6 Figures Worth Of Clients From It
Download the free self-hypnosis bonus video Adrian talked about here
FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
David Greenwalt 00:00
weight loss transformation can't fix everything it can't. But what it can do are the things that we should focus on with respect to the transformation. What can it actually impact? Will it affect mental health? Likely will it affect positivity likely might that impact relationships? Very likely might that impact communication? Yes. Might you feel better feel more confident?
Philip Pape 00:23
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today we are diving into body positivity fit shaming, the obesity epidemic, food addiction, willpower and staying on track and the connection between food and mental health. Joining me is certified health coach fitness expert and author David Greenwalt. He's a husband a father, a former police officer, gym owner, competitive state level bodybuilder and power lifter in 1997 at age 32, and a body weight of 235 pounds, David discovered an evidence based approach for getting off his excess 50 pounds. And of course keeping it off for 25 years and counting. Since 1999, through his company, leanness lifestyle University, David has been helping student members from every walk of life, lose excess fat, keep the muscle and manage this crazy life. David, man, thank you for coming on the show. Hey, thanks
David Greenwalt 01:41
so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Philip Pape 01:44
Awesome. And it sounds like you've been in this space for a while the health and fitness space you have the gym, you've got the experience, both with bodybuilding and powerlifting. You don't often hear that, you know, both sides of of it there. And currently health and wellness coaching. So what is the deeper story behind you know, your life experience that led you to want to help people in terms of nutrition and lifestyle?
David Greenwalt 02:04
Yeah, so, you know, thanks for asking. So, for whatever reason, fitness has been in my DNA since I was a little boy when I was 1011 years old. I wanted the President's Council on Physical Fitness award, we had that in grade school and I wanted that award. I was a b c team, AF, you know, traditional sport athlete, I wasn't, I wasn't a starter, that's for sure. That wasn't gonna be on the 18th. But for whatever reason, fitness just was something that I just, I just, I don't know, I just had a passion for it when I was little. So I've still got the sticker in the patch and the certificate from that President's Council award. And that's 45 years old and counting now. And I'm so proud to get that when I was a senior in high school, someone who was a year older than me, who had already developed a really great physique invited me to start come training with him and some friends in the weight room. And I thought, Heck, yeah, this I thought his physique is fantastic. Love to be a part of that. And that's that was in 1982. And I've been training without more than two weeks off in a row since 1982. So, so that was the start of my senior year of high school. Just kind of took some time, obviously to develop a physique. I competed in bodybuilding and powerlifting in my 20s and 30s. I was a police officer became an Illinois State Trooper when I got to the Academy for the state police. I decided that I wanted to try to start a tiny little supplement company mail order company. And if I'd be happy if I could just make enough money with this side hustle back then we didn't call it that. But if I can just make enough money to pay for my own protein powder, I'd be happy. And, and so I'm I'm working 40 hours a week in uniform. And I started this tiny little mail order company I placed little classified ads in the back of like bodybuilding magazines, flex Iron Man muscle mag, and I couldn't afford display ads. That was way too rich for me. And it was just a tiny little room in my house. There was no internet. I gave a toll free number people could call I couldn't even answer the phone because I was a police officer working the roads. So I'd have to call them back. And,
Philip Pape 04:08
and and I would scream and this is how it was done back then this is
David Greenwalt 04:12
how it was done. Yeah. So as it turned out, it was as much a surprise to me as it would beat anybody. But over the over the course between like 1992 and 1997. I grew that company into about 5 million in annual revenue and 45 employees. And so I'm still a police officer. I'm still working. I've got this company. I've got, you know, dozens of employees. And what happened was the Internet came in. And throughout this process my my customers had seen me that they knew that I had competed in bodybuilding. They knew I competed in powerlifting and I also wrote about fitness and health and nutrition and exercise and I'd go to the we had to go to the Medical Library back then to get research and that they had to photocopy the papers and then bring them back to my office and then read them and highlight him. And then I'd write about research and I tested supplements. And I'd send them off to the lab to make sure that they were what the company said they were. And so people knew that I was really just just so in on wanting to provide good information, solid set the record straight type of type of information. So we had 10s of 1000s of customers through the supplement company, and email came, they started emailing me, hey, Dave, real quick, to get a minute, don't want to be a bother, don't want to be a hassle. But if you could just tell me real quick, how I can lose 30 pounds and keep it off forever. And
Philip Pape 05:37
so on my problems right now, just clicking on reply. Yes.
David Greenwalt 05:40
Look, I don't want to be a pest just to be just real quick, you know. And so the thing is, I was so passionate about wanting to help people get from someplace heavier, less healthy, to someplace leaner and healthier. I gave it the old college try, but it didn't take me long to realize that I was doing them a disservice by trying to answer on the back of a napkin, you know. And so a between 1997 and the the first part of 1999, I wrote my book, it's about 500 pages, and it addressed nutrition and exercise and emotional fitness, because I realized even even back then, with as much or as little as I knew how we want to word it, I knew that emotional fitness was a huge driver of keeping the nutrition and exercise components, you know, on the consistent roads. So got that the internet was here, my gosh, Philip, you got email, you've got two way communication, it's unbelievable. And now you've got this thing called a web and you've got wet a web site you can build. So I built that with dial up no fast internet getting disconnected every 15 minutes. And I couldn't even be on the phone in the home at the same time you were on the internet, and but built the site, and provided an online coaching, you know, venue for people. So we could discuss nutrition, exercise, goal setting motivation, and all the elements. And there can be a username, password protected area, that was a 1999. And I've been doing that ever since I sold the supplement company in the early 2000s. Because I was so passionate about wanting to help people. And I realized that that's what I really wanted to do. I didn't know when I was in my 20s that that's what I wanted to do it it evolved it developed over over many years. But once I really started communicating with people in that area of kind of transformation, I was like this is this is what I was meant to do. This is where my heart is, this is where I'm what I'm truly passionate about. And so that's what I've been doing.
Philip Pape 07:31
That's awesome. You know, a lot of people come through as trainers, for example. It almost sounds like you came the the other direction you had the personal experience, having been a competitor. And then just trying to help people right having those conversations, which even today that's the way it's not like that has changed. What's changed is the technology. Right? Right. And then you talk about the also the need for emotional fitness, which as we know, could be at 90% in some people's journeys of what allows them to be successful. So before we get into some of the mindset stuff and body image, you want to talk about your time as a bodybuilder and power lifter. First of all, were you doing those simultaneously, because that sounds challenging. And then you know, what were those experiences? Like?
David Greenwalt 08:13
Yeah, so, you know, my first bodybuilding competition was when I was in college, and I was maybe 20 I didn't I mean, I knew we you know, you had to cut calories and whatever, but I was just I did it so poorly. And I had no money. I'm live in a dorm room. I was cooking peas in a little electric hot pot. You know, boiling, I'm in my dorm room. And same thing for chicken breasts had no money for you know, lots of grocery shopping. I was just just mentally checked out. I hated it. I got super lean, I was shredded the whole thing. But I hated it so much. I swore back then when I did that I swore I would never do it again. And I didn't do it again for almost 12 years, because I hated it. But I did it so wrong. I just did with what I knew, you know. But anyway, it's but I but it did do it again. But I spent a number of years in there, you know also powerlifting and I didn't, didn't do a bunch of back and forth between powerlifting and bodybuilding. I was in powerlifting for probably about eight or 10 years kind of consistently, you know, built the strength that way. On 510. You know, the highest weight I got to was about 235. And then in bodybuilding, I would compete. Well. I competed at the NPC Illinois State Championships when I was 42. That's the last comp bodybuilding competition I've done. So it's been a while. But I did that at about 190 pounds on stage. And so that was that.
Philip Pape 09:52
And you did that the right way. The second time around. Oh,
David Greenwalt 09:56
that was those years. Yeah. Yes. And that was, you know, four or five other competitions. Haftar so when I did come back to it, I said, Okay, I know a lot more, let's come at it more intelligently. Let's learn, you know, let's put into practice what you now know. And it wasn't, it was it was, I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm not saying that. It wasn't hard, it was hard. But it wasn't like, oh my god, this is just as insane. I never want to do this again.
Philip Pape 10:20
And it sounds like those experiences would be extremely valuable to you as a teacher and to relate to people who have to go through not that extreme level of shredding, although perhaps you work with with people who are performance focused, but just the average person, right, and understanding how to manage hunger and, and muscle loss and all that. But so I think that experience is a good segue into the body image discussion. And let's start with the bigger picture, right? The obesity epidemic. If we can start there, what's driving that? And what can we do about it?
David Greenwalt 10:52
So we're not in a good place. And I think that, you know, most people probably already know that, but just kind of by the numbers, we're sitting at 43% Obesity for adults in the United States right now. We were 15% obese in 1970. We're 43%. Today, we're projected to be 50%. obese by 2030 70% of us are overweight. So things have just gone the wrong direction two and a half times more obese now than we were 52 years ago. And projections to go up I see no reason why we won't be 50% obese by 2030. As a society. I'm always hopeful. I'm gonna make sure I put this right up front that every single person listening as an individual doesn't have to follow that trend as an individual, you can totally win this. But so when I bring bring the gray sky to the conversation, I'm talking societal societal numbers population, new repopulation? You bet so that, you know, that's, that's where we are. So what's driving it? What I will say is, I'm, I'm big on not being in a reductionist, but let me try to simplify it in a way that kind of is reductionist, but kind of not what I see as the the number one driver of obesity are all obesogenic factors that contribute to the overconsumption of ultra processed food, including the fact that ultra processed food is addictive, which then becomes obesogenic and further drives the overconsumption of ultra processed food. So, all of the factors external and internal, and they're in there are so many in our modern society, and obesogenic, I just mean that anything that anything that contributes to behaviors driving obesity, anything, you know, you think advertising, the the number, and location of fast food restaurants, convenience stores, 24 cities,
Philip Pape 12:39
subsidies of subsidies of our food supply that make packaged foods cheaper, yeah,
David Greenwalt 12:43
subsidies Absolutely. Follow the money, you're gonna get a lot of answers to a lot of this. And so you've got, you know, you've got policy and legal being influenced by laws that are created by politicians that have big money from or money from Big Food flowing into them, I call it the Monkey Banana relationship. We're all monkeys going for bananas. And if we understand the relationship of the monkey and the banana, we can much more so understand where things don't normally make sense. If you understand the Monkey Banana relationship, things will make a lot more sense. We may still hate it, we may still disagree with it. But at least you go, Oh, okay, that's what's going on. So money flows into the politicians. We do have organizations that are at the federal government level, and state level and so forth are in charge of kind of health and putting up a message for nutrition and obesity, and health and wellness and all that, that is also influenced by, by big food and money. The American Academy of Nutrition Dietetics, which certifies every registered dietitian in the country is influenced by big food. They are they are invested in big food, big foods invested in them. And if anybody thinks that there isn't, there isn't an influence in their messaging that comes out. I don't know what to say. I just say that there absolutely is all of the and here's the thing, I want to make sure I'm clear on this too, because some people get people get really riled up. I am not someone who says these are evil people, these are malevolent people, these are maliciously people and we should stand in front of our house in which you know, this is not this is not me at all. I think that these are generally really good, decent people just trying to live life and contribute in the way they think is meaningful and data, data data. But in the end
Philip Pape 14:35
there's one there's also the incentives right I mean, behavioral economics its incentives are trying to make a living like the rest of us.
David Greenwalt 14:42
Yes. Yeah. Monkey Banana.
Philip Pape 14:44
There you go.
David Greenwalt 14:46
So So I look at him like that but here's the thing, my my position on it by at least understanding you know, follow the money, the Monkey Banana relationship, however you want to say it is it's about more so helping us to under Stand there relationships so we can adjust our relationship.
Philip Pape 15:03
Right? Right. And it's what we can control, not what we can't.
David Greenwalt 15:07
Right? That's right. And, you know, we can't work. Here's the thing, I think, and I'm a generally very positive person. But I'm a realist. So I think that you and I are probably going to be in our grave before the big societal picture is fixed, but I'm super positive. And again, at the individual level, we don't have to wait for them. We can't wait for a top down approach to fix this. This that's, I'm not saying it's never going to happen. Never say never. We're already seeing changes in the in processed foods as far as what's being put in and what they're doing to it. Because we are voting with our pocketbooks more, we are saying no, to the to some of the 3000 industrial additives that are put in our food supply and what's how it's used, and how it's made. And again, what's the primary driver? What's the Monkey Banana relationship, a big food, it's profit. And if they can profit more on producing a better product for us, then they'll do that. And if we keep voting with our pocketbook, they'll continue to do it. But even so we can't wait for that top down approach. It's going to be a bottom up, and we just, we have to just look out for ourselves as individuals. And if so we're gonna be just fine.
Philip Pape 16:14
Yeah, so there you go. It's, it's the buck stops with the choices we make, at the end of the day, knowing this context, which I imagine a lot of people aren't fully educated or, you know, there's an unconscious level of, you know, herd mentality to this whole thing. And I think, you know, like, podcasts like this, and your message that gets out there, we're doing our part as best we can. And many of us I know, I didn't have necessarily the athletic background you did. But it took me decades to figure this stuff out myself. And I'm the kind of guy like you positive I think I'm in control. I think I know a lot. And still, the ignorance was there despite my best efforts. So yeah, yeah. So now, we want to talk about body body positivity, which is closely linked to obesity, right? Because we talk about outside factors, the obesogenic environment, and then perhaps that leads to the thought, Well, you're a big person, or you're at an obese weight, and he can't really help it. And so we shouldn't criticize, or judge people for how they look, you know, healthy at any size, all of that messaging, which can get thorny and controversial. But I know we're going to treat it with the right nuance here and respect. So what do you think about that movement?
David Greenwalt 17:21
First of all, I I, I generally understand how kind of despondent a lot of people are, who have tried and battle this hundreds of times, where you've you consider false starts and start stops and start on Monday, and you're done by Tuesday and, or whatever, whatever the thing may be. Where in the in the environment we're in with the messaging that is that has been given, again, from top down from top health, government, Top Health edu, Academy of Nutrition, and dietetics supposed to be the trusted nutrition source for dietitians and everything, all things in moderation, eat less and exercise more, never say no to anything, you get a craving, make sure you have some other ways it can do this and do that. There's no such thing as a bad food, blah, blah, blah, all of that messaging, first of all, it hasn't worked. Look at us look where we are 43%, obese versus 15%, they've done a poor job on getting, if that was their goal, if their goal was to help us stay or get healthy, they have failed. So with that in mind, I understand because I work with people every single day who are not completely hopeless, Otherwise, they wouldn't find me. There's still there's still a little bit of hope there. Right? Where they're like, Oh, I almost don't believe that it's possible for me to witness. But I have a 1% tiny little piece of flickering ash in me, you know, that says I just don't want to accept where I'm at. I'm, I'm not happy where I'm at. I'm, you know, I'm dissatisfied in so many ways. But I understand that, since you know, the failure rate is somewhere between 80 and 95%, for keeping it off, you know, and I get that it's like, at some point, I think there's this, this movement is kind of been like, Look, guys, you know, everything that's been put out there hasn't worked. Of course, you know, when you look at 80 to 95%? Well, if we look at the general messaging, again, top down big messaging, big influential groups, their messaging hasn't worked. It's not surprising to me that it hasn't worked because it hasn't addressed what I call kind of six pillars that have to be looked at, you need to look at nutrition, you've got to look at exercise, fine. Everybody looks at that. That's usually what people are thinking, by the way, when they say I know what to do, I just need to do it. And when they when they say I know what to do, I just need to do it. And I know I'm tangent A tangent in here a bit. There's third thinking nutrition exercise, eat a little less and better exercise a little more and better. I got it. But you don't got it that because that's only two of the six. We've got to look at intrinsic motivation, what drives willpower, we've got to look at compulsive eating addiction. We've got to look at emotional fitness and then we've got to see what personal professional and spiritual support might that person need as an individual Those are the six pillars nutrition exercise, intrinsic motivation, compulsive eating addiction, that's one, emotional fitness is a big category and one, and then what level of support will an individual need? Well, I mean, come on, the average person out there who's been battling this, the average person who maybe kind of as you, you segwayed, into, maybe into this, let's just Oh, my God, let's just accept where we are, let's just say that heck with it, you know, we've tried, I've tried hundreds of times, and so have millions of others, we aren't succeeding, we try to apply the messaging that's been given to us, it doesn't work, I haven't been able to make it work for me, and neither of these millions of other people. So and I've seen film, I've seen researchers, I've written researchers who have given up, the researchers have given up, not across the board, but I've seen them here and there, where they're like, basically, the best thing someone can hope for is just don't gain any more. Right. And I'm like, I write a researcher, I'm like, shame on you, for giving up Shame on you, for you with the education you have. And all the resources you have to, to not looking at, I'm going to call it the six pillars, but looking at the other factors that are almost never addressed, but have to be addressed. If we want to win this once. And for all this can be one, we I see it every day with my own clients, other people see it with their clients. But when people really have put into place, what's really necessary to win this, this absolutely can be won. Back to your your kind of your state and your question. I don't blame people for being at a point where they're like, man, we just, I just want to at least feel good about life, you know, I'm gonna feel good about where I'm at. So from a body positivity position like that, I very much am sympathetic to it. I am going to say I understand it the best I can. And but even so, you know, we can we can kind of take it from here.
Philip Pape 21:53
Yeah, so it sounds like the the message here is, we're so conditioned to failure. We're so conditioned to everything having that we've tried hasn't worked. And even if we think we're doing the right thing, nutrition and training, that's only to have, like you said, the six pillars actually like the way you organize that because I haven't heard it quite structured that way. But it's complete. I can imagine a pie chart or something like that, right? Filling in the whole picture. The motivation, the compulsive eating, the emotional and support side are here, right? They're massive, even so when you throw in the nutrition and training, I'm sure you've seen that people don't really understand what the right thing is to do. Many times, even with nutrition and training does that truth right? It is.
David Greenwalt 22:34
And so a lot of people come in and go, I know what to do, I just need to do it nutrition exercise. Got it. Just give me the seven day diet and exercise plan. Dave, thanks so much little accountability, again, and I'll be on my way. And, and here's the thing is that first of all, I don't know what you know about nutrition, you may know some things and maybe you've got it pretty solid, but then again, maybe you don't there's so much misinformation out there. You know, and I don't know what you've consumed, I don't know what you've read listen to. So first of all, we really have to make sure without being dogmatic, overly rigid, and all this kind of stuff, we need to make sure that they have a real understanding of nutrition for the purposes of health and fitness. And the same thing for exercise do they have what they need to be able to perform exercise in a way that's gonna be meaningful to them and, and promoting of healthspan and lifespan and all the things they want out of it? Whatever that may be physique and whatever it may be? So let's assume that we get that to that point. And if I ask someone Hey, what's general what do we record? What are we generally mean by you know, good nutrition? What do we generally mean by proper amount of proper type and amount of exercise? And let's say they can regurgitate that back? Great, they bought but they're sitting at two right now. Got it?
Philip Pape 23:47
Yeah, but you and but your process, I like your process, because and you use use the free student member when you talk about your, your clients of getting to getting them to that baseline, right? Because you'll you'll have someone come to you and I get this too, if interested clients. Well, but I'm doing paleo and running a lot. So I've got that covered. Now, why is everything not working? Like okay, we have to peel back and get to the premise of all this first and rebuild the foundation. So listening to podcasts like this will get you there and listen to what David has to say. All right, um, you know, I want to talk about fit shaming, but I think there's a lot more to cover in the on the on the fat shaming or the body positivity, whatever phrases we want to use. On the mindset side, you mentioned this defeatist mindset, right? Where people have basically given up or maybe they have that flicker of hope, but it's close. And a lot of people criticize someone for not having willpower, right? That's the common thing like if this is all you have to do, and we've established that the even the basic education isn't there, but let's say everybody knew the right thing to do. You're just not doing it right. You just have to whatever it is, eat less exercise more whatever. It's just energy balance. We know energy balance is true, but but to say that and that you're lacking willpower and people don't just do it. What are your thoughts on that? You know, approach.
David Greenwalt 25:02
So yeah, very, very strong thoughts on that. And I but I want to just plant this and if we don't get to it, we don't. But I want to plant this that I that while I am 100% 100% all in that every single person has certain inalienable rights, to love respect, if you're just trying to be a good person, I don't care what size you are, I don't care at all zero care about that, other than the concerns I have, with regard to obesity in the issues that that relate to that from a health perspective. But as far as a human being perspective, zero, love, respect, consideration, empathy, all the things that we as humans should be just granted period for being alive if we're trying to be a good person. I'm 100%. All in on that. And if we if we go back to that, I'll talk about the two concerns I have that have nothing to do with whether someone's good or bad. You know, it's not a judgment type thing, but just concerns I have and what is obesity and all that. With regard to your your question, that you just asked, Why don't people just do it? What about willpower? One of the things, you know, when I was telling you that, you know, back in 1997, when people were emailing me, hey, Dave, real quick, if you get a chance, no big deal. 30 pounds, keep it off forever. That's still a mindset that's here today, where it's minimized. They don't understand what it's going to take. They don't understand what's involved with all that we have going on and how obesogenic our society is and all the forces working against them, when they don't know what things to look at the, let's say the six pillars, but they also don't they also minimize what it's going to take everybody eats, everybody moves. It shouldn't be that hard. And we all know, here's the thing, I always say, I can come to your city and stand on tallest building with a bullhorn and scream, eat less and exercise more, and people will look up and go, I know. I mean, we there's a, there's an inherent understanding of energy balance, we have to take in less energy than we expend. If we do we'll lose weight, hopefully most of it fat. If we take in more energy, you know, then we expend, we're gonna gain and if we take an equal amount that will stay the same. I don't know what it is 80% 90% of the people if you ask them that they're good. Yeah, I know. So the thing that they're missing, though, is everything else. All that's left is all the rest. And so, and all the rest is a lot so one of them is they minimize the why they're going to need you know, the why is so critical. Why power drives willpower? And kind of proof and evidence just they is the thought exercise is people think they don't have willpower. And I don't think that someone that's 300 pounds, 400 pounds, I don't think I don't think they don't have what they have willpower. They've demonstrated it over and over and over again. If they weren't this present example, if anybody works for someone else, do you? When's the last time you were late for work? Good point. Yeah. I mean, it takes willpower my definition. My adapted definition is the the ability to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done whether you feel like it or not. You go to work regardless. Well, what about when you're sick go to work. What about when you're tired? Go to work. What about when you got two hours sleep and the kid was crying, crying all last night with a fever go to work? What about when you know, you just got done crying yourself for 20 minutes because there was a emotional upheaval in the family you lost your love, you go to work, it's you go to work. And not only do you go to work, you go to work on time. And not only do you go to work on time a lot, a lot of days you're at least somewhat productive you know, your job and so you do these things and that's a huge demonstration of willpower and you have it Why do people do that? That's the answer their Why is incredibly strong for keeping the job. All the things that gives them money is one of the things but also you know feelings of contribution and satisfaction and community or whatever it may be. There's a huge why for why people go to work. Same thing if people have young children when was the last time you didn't pick up your kid from school when they needed to be picked up? Did you just say Nah, I'm not in the mood today. Of course you didn't you went because even though you were tired sick just had an argument with your spouse. Whatever the thing is, you went picked up the child because your why for making sure your child knows they can count on you is so strong. You will do it no matter what. You have an advanced degree. It's hard as hell. Did you always you always go to class study and do the things you needed to do when you were in the mood? Absolutely not. That took incredible willpower anything hard long, that isn't necessarily naturally in your wheelhouse. Or that you would just kind of choose to do no matter what some Things you're just passionate about right? Things we are like nobody has to tell me to do XYZ. I love it so much even so there's still a strong why there, but it's just more something that somebody is more naturally inclined to want to do. Things that aren't like that. You've got to incredibly crazy why and why powers driving willpower? When people come at obesity or weight management, they minimize that. They come out and you say, Why do you want to do this had just want to get a little healthier? That's not gonna work. That's not enough. It's a start. It's nothing wrong with it. It's just not developed. It hasn't been really drilled down into this, we have to get the why incredibly, emotionally driving strong, much stronger than what people realize. And so it's a third, it's a third pillar, and it's minimized, it's and if there's a work, it's not going to work. Why because the obesogenic environment, the factors that are working against us are so strong, so powerful. If we have the why we can persist. You know, we can persist. Even though life is throwing us curveballs, we can persist. Without exception, we can persist, no matter what happens, we may not always do it, right. We're not always going to wake up every day and slay the dragon, we're not going to do it. But we can do it much more often, much more consistently if our Y is strong. So one of the things we do is help our student members develop their why fully develop their y, so that they are really ready to wake up and face the day and be like, okay, yes, this isn't, this isn't something that I kind of want to do or that I kind of thought about, or it'd be nice. I have to have this. This is something I have to do
31:44
now to Philippe and hopefully for a long time, I don't know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. Now I have a more balanced diet, I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.
Philip Pape 32:29
I just want to explore that one one later, deeply. Because it's a common thing I see where people are asked what their goal is. And their goal is, like you said it's at the superficial level, it's almost the method that they're they're regurgitating is the goal, you know, the the losing fat or the getting fit, right? It's almost a method or a small piece of the whole process, where the Why might be, like you said, emotionally tied to being a role model for their kids and being there when they're older and being able to enjoy these activities that they couldn't enjoy otherwise, et cetera. How do you what kind of activity or exercise do you go through that maybe the listener can try on their own?
David Greenwalt 33:07
So you know, one of the things that one of the things that you can do to at least start with is, you know, you want to consider, you know, kind of certain categories, you know, how might your why this kind of just be thinking about these things? How might your y affect family relationships, professional aspirations, career aspirations? We know there's bias there. How might it affect aspirational things? What are things that you've put on hold? Or is there anything socially that you want to do more of that you've put on hold or that you avoid, because you don't want to be in that situation? That's so common. So those are some things to kind of think of, you know, category and then also physicality things, I want sculpted shoulders, and I'm not talking body builder, but you know, let's just say, you know, a common thing for a woman again, it varies as are stars in the skies, but it is the common thing that is a woman wants to wear be able to wear a sleeveless, I'd like to be able to wear a sleeveless and feel good about my shoulders and arms. That's all I don't need to get on stage but just to feel good about what I'm wearing. I want to be able to shop my closet, I've got four sizes of clothes in my closet, I don't need to go buy more clothes, I just want to fit into the ones I fit into. So those are kind of physicality things. So that's a part of it. Kind of looking at all these various categories where here's the thing, weight loss, transformation can't fix everything, it can't, but what it can do are the things that we should focus on with respect to the transformation what can it actually impact? Will it affect mental health? Likely will it affect positivity likely might that impact relationships, very likely, might that impact communication? Yes, might you feel better feel more confident? So, just as a practical exercise, just as a starter, something that I will say is start with? I want blank so Fill that blank. I want blank. So that blank, that's like a, it's like a chapter heading on your whiteboard. Okay, you know.
Philip Pape 35:11
And that's important because the first blank is where people often stop. Like, that's why I want blank No, but why you want blank,
David Greenwalt 35:18
right? So that what and then you can start to drill down by saying, let me see if I can just give them a quick example, I want to let's say they're going to use a number, I want to weigh 160 pounds, so that I fit comfortably in a normal airplane seat. Because people can take it for granted. But if you're, if you're not large, you can take for granted. But if you're large, that's something that I've had, I can't tell you how many clients just something thing I want to fit I want to fit in. So let's just say that's,
Philip Pape 35:52
that's the thing. No, this is great. Yeah, it's sorry, we 160
David Greenwalt 35:56
pounds so I can fit comfortably. And in that center, not an aisle seat. So I can fit in the center seat of, you know, an airplane. So that what Yeah, what do I say? So that I can do that. Alright, so then we go. So the next question would be, it's important to me that I can fit comfortably in an airplane seat, because what follows the because so that starts to write the chapter. So the chapter heading is I want blank, so that blank, but we start to write the chapter when we we look at whatever followed so that we look at that, whatever that thing is. And we ask this question, we say it this way, it's important to me that I can fit comfortably in an airplane seat, just as an example. Because, and then you start to expand on that. And then that starts to get emotional. You know, sometimes the I want. So that is emotional. But that starts to get emotional, because then we start drilling down, what does it mean to you to be able to fit in an airplane seat comfortably? What does that mean? You know, what does that what difference does that make? Who cares? Well, I'll tell you why. Because of this, I mean, so you start filling in the blank on that. And you can start adding multiple supportive statements to the chapter. And you can just kind of, you can kind of start building it that way, and start drilling down. So there are lots of do's and don'ts. But basically, you know, as far as getting a start, that's a good way to start. And it's something that most people have never heard.
Philip Pape 37:26
Yeah, I love that. You put it into a, you put it into a narrative, a story. And it's, there's a drier version of that, that I learned in the engineering world called five whys. And it's a root cause technique where you simply just keep asking why, which is effectively what you're doing. But you're doing it in a way that tells an entire story. You could say, I want this, why? Because of this, well, why because of this, and you keep going down that you're effectively doing that. But it's a very powerful tool, because you get to that root cause. Yeah, and the other and the other thing you alluded to when some of your examples is, it doesn't have to be I mean, the reason is yours. The reason is your like, don't let anybody judge you for it. It could be a vanity reason. It could be, you know, a very powerful reason. One question I've asked people is what what would you like to be doing when you're 90? Like, what physical feat would you like to accomplish when we're talking strength? What do you want to still be able to do when you're 90 and then kind of let that drive you as well? It's good stuff, David. All right. Yes, stuff.
David Greenwalt 38:23
Yeah. Can I just say on the vanity thing, it's a common thing. You just I hadn't thought of it. But you mentioned. And here's the thing. A lot of people will stop short on even putting in their why? What they really want, because they're afraid they're going to sound vain. But here's the thing. Vanity is excessive pride. excessive pride. Just because you want to feel proud, doesn't mean you have excessive pride. It doesn't mean you're standing on a perch, it doesn't mean you're a narcissist. It doesn't mean that you are all the negative things where you know, you are now looking down on people and you're just feeling pride. I feel proud that I accomplished this. I feel proud. I feel proud. Is it okay? If I feel proud that our three grown kids are amazing. I would think it's okay, if I as a parent, feel proud of my kids, and that I'm so proud of them. And I'm so proud, I can be proud. I hope that we as parents, least did what we did to contribute in some way to them, you know, being good. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Why are you feeling good about that without being overblown? Do I have plenty of things that I could have could have would have showed up? You know, raising our kids. Yes, I still have awareness of that just because I feel proud about it. But why can't we feel that way? Why can't we put that stuff into our why? And I say do it put it in there. What do you really want you know, things that you will feel proud about? Put it in there. It's not excessive unless it is and and unless You're judging others and pointing right looking down on others and things like that, if you're not doing that, and you're living, let live, do it, put it in there.
Philip Pape 40:09
And I love that that is really good. I mean, just the fact that vanity is excessive pride, but you just want to get to, you just want to get to a baseline that would make you satisfied with what you've done in life. Right? You know, or even a little more than that, but not excessively. Right. And you alluded to that. Don't Don't judge other people. But also, if you're listening to this, or, you know, someone that is trying to improve their life, for whatever reason, let's not shame them either. And I see this happen in in groups or families, particularly where everybody's struggling a bit right with their health. So one person decides to be the outlier. Yeah, and and do something different. And all of a sudden, you know, you're weird. Why are you doing this? There's no way you could get healthier. Look at us as the family tree, you're making us look bad, or just just a lack of, you know, an apathy about it. Yeah, the list goes on. And people listening in you, David know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. And there's a phrase, I guess, fit shaming, we can call it whatever we want. It's that double standard people criticize others for trying to get in shape, improve their health, and so on. Yeah, your thoughts about that?
David Greenwalt 41:14
First of all, there is a bit of a double standard, I'll take, I'll take the compliment that it mostly is, even if it's left handed to a degree, I'll take the compliment in a day of the week over living the alternative. And that's just me, each person do their thing. But to be able to be fit enough where someone feels there, they can be comfortable enough to comment. I'll take that. And I'll take it and listen. I'm not saying that when I take it, I don't go oh, my god, are you? You know, of course I do. You know, a day, you know, I don't see any protein in that brownie. You're getting ready at the family function? I'm sure that's you're sure that's got protein in it, Dave? No, no, it, it doesn't doesn't have much protein now, you know. So. And that's not something you would say, I shouldn't say that there are people who are cruel. So in my mind, I can hardly picture because I just wouldn't do it. I would never say to someone who is obvious. They're struggling with their weight data, data. Sure. You want that extra piece of cake, Sally or whatever, at the fan. Oh, my God. But I know there are cruel people out there. And there are people that are cruel that do that. So I'm not saying it doesn't happen to them. It does. But what you're saying, you know, it definitely does happen. I think it mostly or a lot of times is not mean spirited. Sometimes it is the person themselves, who says it may be feeling whatever they're feeling about their own journey. They aren't feeling as competent in their own journey. And so or, or they just kind of feel like maybe the person is that they're talking to has a level of fitness, where they're not saying they think this way, but the so this may not be the gist, right? But it's almost like they're wearing a coat of armor. You know, because you're just you've got it together. You're intimidated, maybe. Yeah, yeah. And so you'll be able to take this and you'll know how I mean it, and you won't be offended and it won't hurt your feelings. And but sometimes it does. But even so I'd still rather be in the position I am and go. Alright, I gotta, again, I'm going to use emotional fitness to process the sting, you know, someone saying something, because of the double standard or whatever, and just try to get on. You get on with life. But does it happen? Oh, yeah.
Philip Pape 43:22
Yeah, yeah. It's just a very interesting thing. Because you do talk about one of the pillars being support. And I'm always thinking about, you know, the people you surround yourself with, like you said, if it's, if it's innocent, if it's not intended that way, and you'll you'll probably know that there's nuances and conversation all the time. And again, like you said, if you're doing the things you feel are right, for you with pride, and not excessive pride, you just move on, and you probably have built up some level of not not armor in the way you were intending it but our good armor against this. Resilience, right?
David Greenwalt 43:53
Yes, yeah. Yes. I, and just, you know, I think again, I think generally, generally speaking, if you're really super fit, you're going to stand out. And because that's not the norm, I mean, if you're truly fit, you know, we can define we can define, you know, health related physical fitness, we can define it, you know, cardio, respiratory endurance, muscular endurance, muscle, muscular strength, flexibility, body composition, are the five components. If you have all of those high cardio, muscular endurance, muscular strength, body composition, flexibility, you have all of those high, you're going to look like it, right Oh, those are high, you're going to look like Man, that guy is fit or that gals fit, you know, and you're gonna stand out because that is not the norm. And you're gonna stand out in a positive way. And I think most people most will look at that person and go, way to go, you know, now that may not be what comes out of their mouth.
Philip Pape 44:47
No, but it's true. You're right. You're right. It was
David Greenwalt 44:49
a piece of that. I'm at least I think for most people are who go Dang. Okay, you know, maybe they don't think they can do it. Maybe they're like, Oh, I could never do that but go for you, but it also may still come out when you have that piece of brownie at the family function, you know, how many protein there?
Philip Pape 45:06
Oh, hopefully it's motivated to I mean, at least I tried to look at it that way. And anybody that is doing things that I would aspire to get closer to, even though again, we shouldn't compare ourselves to people, because everyone's different, but at least, you know, using it as a positive of like, okay, I'm gonna take those thoughts and I know, make them into something that works for me. All right, so I have a whole bunch more questions, but we don't have a ton more time. So I'm going to, I'm going to focus on maybe we were going to talk about things like food addiction and flexible eating. So maybe a little talk about the actual food specifics. You mentioned, the, you know, no food is off limits approach, or the, you know, there's no good or bad food. We have the concepts of flexible dieting, which for some people, it's different things, I think it is like whatever Alan Aragon's kind of path of flexible dieting, where it's not anarchy, you know, it's not, If It Fits Your Macros so much as a macro and calorie guidelines within which you have some flexibility, but you're gonna limit your processed foods to an extent, just go I mean, tell me what your what your thoughts are on the topic,
David Greenwalt 46:09
you bet. So, you know, my thing as far as again, applying these moral, you know, assessments to what we eat, it's good, it's bad. I don't healthy, unhealthy, I don't I look at it, are we eating real food and doesn't work for you. So, you know, I think that, again, I've adapted a working definition of real food, based off of a food classification system called the Nova food classification, and developed by Professor out of Brazil been around 1012 years now, it's, it's making the rounds, and has been in the research now for quite some time, very heavily being looked at respected, nothing's perfect. It's not either, but I really like what Nova food classification looks at, because they look heavily at the processing. And so my working definition from theirs again, you'd have to, they're a semester long things that would have to get into their breakdown. But mine is this real food is whole or minimally processed, edible parts of plant and animal, where if anything's been added to it, it's whole or minimally processed ingredients commonly found in kitchens. So me say it again, quick, because I think it just kind of people like what he just said, whole are mentally process edible parts of plant and animal where if anything's been added to it, it's whole or minimally processed, ingredients commonly found in kitchens. So, you know, it's, you know, you think about your single ingredient things very common, you know, your single ingredient, animal based products, or single ingredient, plant based products, sure, but there's also combination products that are that are absolutely just fine, too, you can have a merit, a jarred marinara on the shelf. And the ingredients can be tomatoes, basil, oregano, garlic, you know, blah, blah, blah. And as long as those are the ingredients, it's what we call real food. So basically, everything else, even that is at least minimally processed. But almost everything else, if it's not real food is ultra processed. Not everything, there's nuance to it. And so we want to minimize that our goal is to try it out. Right now, Americans are eating 60 to 90% of what they eat is ultra processed food 60 to 90%. It's crazy. And so what we want to do, and that's what's happened is that's crowded out real food, it's crowded out, all we want to do is we want to reverse that. And I'm not saying we eliminate Ultra processed food, but I'd like to get real food up to 90%. That's like the pinnacle, you know, 90% intake, real food you go. That's crazy, David, you're insane, dude. Well, that is how we ate for hundreds of 1000s of years. It's exactly how we ate for hundreds of 1000s year we ate real food. It's what we're designed to eat our body knows what to do with it. And as I said at the top of this, what's the primary contributing factor to obesity in the United States, all obesogenic factors that contribute to the overconsumption of all processed foods? Yes. You know, so we kind of came full circle there. But So with regard to kind of what you were saying, I'm flexible, you know, I said this to somebody just the other day, they're like, Okay, somebody was trying to kind of help create kind of a vision. This is a different podcast, and their thing was just their whole focus was different, but they were trying to create a vision of things, you know, to avoid, they're like, Okay, I would want people to avoid, you know, pizza and cookies. And I said, Well, it depends. I mean, if you're eating 90% real food, and as a part of your 10% you can have pizza or cookies, or whatever it is, and remember, is it real food and does it work for you? People will pound their fist. You can do it with what you can do with salted peanuts. They'll pound their fists and go to real food. Dave, I'm good to go. Does it work for you? It doesn't work for you if you eat the whole jar.
Philip Pape 49:47
Right? Does it work for you your goals? Does it make you feel good? All right.
David Greenwalt 49:52
Do you get gastrointestinal distress does it give you gas and diarrhea? Is a cloud your your brain get foggy afterwards? Okay. Even if it's real food, if it doesn't work for you, we got to figure out what we're going to do about it. So, so yeah, we have to look at, you know, all all of these things, to really, really get a handle on what's really going on. So real food 90%. That's why generally, let's put it this way, at least, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that categorically anything's off limits, it's going to vary person to person, I just would like to see real food crowd out Ultra processed foods.
Philip Pape 50:30
That is that is exactly the phrase I use. I love it that you're saying that. And it often starts for me with protein, because people are underfed on protein. And the argument I like to make is if you go to the grocery store and find whatever sources of protein you can, it's very hard to find very much processed foods that are protein, you know, high enough and protein and you inevitably have to go to the animal and plant sources. It kind of you know, you're not thinking Whole Foods unnecessarily consciously you think and then you get protein, what's going to serve me what's right for me? Yeah. And then it starts to crowd out other things. Well, if I need to get 180 grams of protein, I'm not going to have too much room for these things. Yeah. Now what about? So like, whey protein is always brought up with me? And I think that's pretty much a whole food. But don't tell me what you think. Yeah, it's arguable. It is.
David Greenwalt 51:15
It's it. I think it's in a in a bit of a nuanced I think that, again, if you take a let's just say, everybody says whey protein, what whey protein, so spin it around, let's look at the ingredients. If the ingredients are, you know, whole or minimally processed, edible parts of plant and animal were the only thing added to it is holer, minimally processed ingredients commonly found in kitchens, then you can say it's processed, but it's we can still possibly call it real food. But if you get like a flavored whey protein, and now it's got 20,
Philip Pape 51:41
suka artificial flavors and all that yet
David Greenwalt 51:44
Ultra processed for sure. Whey Protein and and lecithin as the emulsifier. You know, I mean, I don't know what Nova would say on that. I think Nova might say processed, maybe they wouldn't say Ultra process. Because, you know, in my years back when I was talking about I think I talked about when I had the supplement company. Yeah, when I had the supplement company, you know, I actually went to Minnesota, I went to land a lakes in Minnesota, because I had a protein produced for me and I toured their plant, I saw how it was made. And if we're talking about drying, and we're talking about filtering, and we're talking about things like that, where we haven't added in things we haven't added in acid washes, and we haven't added things in but it's a drying and a filtering process. I think it you know, you could probably, if it's just an unflavored whey, you know, or it's whey isolate and cocoa, okay, commonly found in kitchens, fine. You know, we could say it's maybe it's just processed, but not Ultra processed. By the way, what that thing you and I are talking about right there that specific food is not the reason that we have obesity.
Philip Pape 52:52
That's a great point. It's like if people bring up fruit, you know, I'm like fruit is not the cause of obesity.
David Greenwalt 52:58
That is not, it is not? I know, no,
Philip Pape 53:02
that is a good point, like, do we even need to talk much about it? That's more of an optimization thing, right? You've got things, then you're like, Okay, let me go to more. Even even myself. I know, I occasionally have the big tubs of the cheaper protein because I gotta get it in. Right? Yeah, you know, I should probably spend a little more occasionally in the stuff that doesn't have the extra ingredients. Alright, so how about, I just I'll ask you my penultimate question that I ask all guests, and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
David Greenwalt 53:30
Wow. You know, I don't have because I was able to at least mention the six pillars. It's important that people know that any one of those could be the showstopper. And I'll reverse I'll reverse the sentence. It could also be the difference maker in success. So I don't think you've missed any questions. I think that okay. Oh, all right. I'll do this one, because we looked at body positivity. What's my concern with body positivity Dave?
Philip Pape 54:03
What's your? What's your answer?
David Greenwalt 54:06
So my thing is, it's, again, not the person. Absolutely not human inalienable rights. Let them be, don't judge them, you know, ever right? You also don't know if they're healthy. Right? You know, you can tell by looking at them that they may be obese, you can tell by looking at them that maybe their waist circumference as a female is greater and 35 greater than 40 is a male got it? But that's only one factor. So instead of instead of looking at someone and saying that person is obviously unhealthy, because there'll be you don't know, you can't tell you can't see their biomarkers. You can't see the measurements other than the physical one, you know, on the outside, so why am I concerned one, I'm concerned when someone does reach the obese status and I'm concerned because obesity is a known risk factor for increased incidence of cancer stroke, heart disease, diabetes, systemic inflammation, dementia, naphthyl D, non alcoholic fatty liver disease, arthritis. as autoimmune disorders and eventual long term care, and that's kind of part one at the individual level, I'm concerned for the individual I'm with Body Mass Index defining obesity and a body mass index being 30, or greater being obese. And then there are three classes of obesity 30 to 34.9 is class 135 to 35 39.9 is class two and 40. And up is class three, the moral beasts, the more likely these things are to occur, I am not as concerned and I am not someone, as a coach who says, You've got to be, you've got to have a BMI of 25 or less, which was, you know, with under 2024 point now, 18.5 to 24.9 is the healthy normal weight range by BMI. It's the 30. And up because the research starts to get much stronger, where we start to not equivocate so much, we can equivocate it with a BMI of 2728, whatever, and maybe the very, very lowest end of obesity. But once that starts to decline, then my concerns that I just raised our concerns for that reason their health is going to suffer. And then part two of that is we all are sharing the cost of the increased cost of obesity, there is an increased cost of obesity, and so I'm concerned for the individual. But I also think it's unsustainable as a society for us to continue in the direction we are, and just get to the point where we don't, as individuals, try and solve it for ourselves first, because we can't wait for the top down, but eventually top down doing what they can to try to help, you know, bring the obesity epidemic down, because you're looking at obesity in the United States costing us on what $173 million, you know, extra year, someone who's obese, that cost them health care wise, $3,508 more per year for that individual. And that's if they don't have lots of medications and in need of surgeries and kind of chronic medical care. It's it's very, very expensive to us all. And you know, Medicare and Medicaid, pay a huge portion of the increased medical costs. Who pays for Medicare and Medicaid? We all do. There's a shared costs tax base, you name it, but there's a shared cost in that. And so we're all paying more, I'm gonna say not because individuals have your failures as individuals, you're weak willed. I hope I've gotten the message across. I don't see that at all. The messaging from top down has failed. We've created this environment that's incredibly obesogenic we have given them the wrong information. Well, not enough of the right information. Some of its right not enough of the right information. It's half cocked, it's it's influenced and biased by, by money, the Monkey Banana relationship. So we've got these millions of people that are suffering in obesity, with huge costs, huge eventual health and lifestyle and healthspan cost to them as individuals, and then huge costs to us, which I see is unsustainable. So I'm only really concerned on the kind of the body positivity side is for one, knock it off, if you're just a mean person, okay? Don't you know, I don't care who you're doing it to stop it. No one deserves that. But I am concerned for them as individuals, I'm concerned for us as a society because of the increased costs. And what is actually paying for this. And again, huge, a huge amount of it is Medicare, Medicaid.
Philip Pape 58:29
Great message. And I think Is it true that anyone, no matter what state they're in today can improve their health?
David Greenwalt 58:37
Oh, gosh, here's, I'm gonna take it a step further. Yes. And I'm gonna say this, no matter what you've been told, no matter what your family history is, no matter what your genetics are, no matter what you've been dealt or handed, you know, in life, I want to say, Please don't give up because you absolutely can win this, you can get to any healthy weight you want. And you can live there, plus or minus 10 pounds, whatever, somewhere in that range. No one lives there perfectly. You can live there for life. I don't care if you're 60 listening to this, I don't care if you're 19 you can get there. And you can live there for life. It's it's not a wonder if you've struggled it's not a wonder if what with what you've heard, what top down messaging has been that you haven't achieved it yet. But don't give up because you absolutely can't. You haven't
Philip Pape 59:29
done it yet. And you can That's the message and that's a great message. So thank you David for coming on. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?
David Greenwalt 59:37
I'll keep it simple when I when I when I when I name this leanness lifestyle, you know, 24 years ago I don't you know if I didn't know what I was gonna be doing it this long. I probably would have made it a little easier. So just made the website a little easier, and that'd be the place to go. All our links to social are there too, but it's L L university.com.
Philip Pape 59:55
l l university.com. I'll put those in the show notes so listeners can find you, David This was a pleasure. We covered so many topics just scratched the surface, I feel, but I really thank you for coming on the show.
David Greenwalt 1:00:06
You bet it was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Philip Pape 1:00:09
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 67: Body Positivity, Fit Shaming, Obesity, Food Addiction, and Keeping Your Self-Promises with David Greenwalt
Today we are diving into body positivity and fit shaming, the obesity epidemic, food addiction, willpower and staying on track, and the connection between food and mental health. Joining me is Certified Health Coach, fitness expert, and author David Greenwalt. He is a husband, father, former police officer, gym owner, competitive state-level bodybuilder, and powerlifter.
Today we are diving into body positivity and fit shaming, the obesity epidemic, food addiction, willpower and staying on track, and the connection between food and mental health.
Joining me is Certified Health Coach, fitness expert, and author David Greenwalt. He is a husband, father, former police officer, gym owner, competitive state-level bodybuilder, and powerlifter.
David is the author of the book "The Leanness Lifestyle," which provides a comprehensive guide for men and women looking to transform their bodies and permanently lose weight.
In 1997, at age 32 and a body weight of 235 pounds, David discovered an evidence-based approach for getting off his excess 50 pounds and keeping it off for 25 years and counting. Since 1999, through his company Leanness Lifestyle University, he has been helping student members from every walk of life lose excess fat, keep the muscle, and manage this crazy life.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:03] David's backstory
[8:01] His experience as a bodybuilder and powerlifter
[10:39] What's driving obesity and what we can do about it
[16:50] The body-positivity movement and obesity
[24:20] The defeatist mindset, why power and willpower
[31:45] Max thanks Philip for helping him prioritize his health and dropping 45 Lbs
[32:35] How to start with your "why"
[37:56] Vanity is excessive pride
[40:10] David's thoughts about fit-shaming
[45:28] Food addiction, flexible dieting, no-food-is-off-limits approach, ultra-processed food, and the NOVA food classification
[51:07] Does whey protein pass the NOVA classification?
[53:42] David's concern about body positivity, obesity, and the cost of obesity
[59:36] Learn more about David
[1:00:06] Outro
Episode resources:
David’s website: Leanness Lifestyle University
Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ilivell
David's book: The Leanness Lifestyle
FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
David Greenwalt 00:00
weight loss transformation can't fix everything it can't. But what it can do are the things that we should focus on with respect to the transformation. What can it actually impact? Will it affect mental health? Likely will it affect positivity likely might that impact relationships? Very likely might that impact communication? Yes. Might you feel better feel more confident?
Philip Pape 00:23
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today we are diving into body positivity fit shaming, the obesity epidemic, food addiction, willpower and staying on track and the connection between food and mental health. Joining me is certified health coach fitness expert and author David Greenwalt. He's a husband a father, a former police officer, gym owner, competitive state level bodybuilder and power lifter in 1997 at age 32, and a body weight of 235 pounds, David discovered an evidence based approach for getting off his excess 50 pounds. And of course keeping it off for 25 years and counting. Since 1999, through his company, leanness lifestyle University, David has been helping student members from every walk of life, lose excess fat, keep the muscle and manage this crazy life. David, man, thank you for coming on the show. Hey, thanks
David Greenwalt 01:41
so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Philip Pape 01:44
Awesome. And it sounds like you've been in this space for a while the health and fitness space you have the gym, you've got the experience, both with bodybuilding and powerlifting. You don't often hear that, you know, both sides of of it there. And currently health and wellness coaching. So what is the deeper story behind you know, your life experience that led you to want to help people in terms of nutrition and lifestyle?
David Greenwalt 02:04
Yeah, so, you know, thanks for asking. So, for whatever reason, fitness has been in my DNA since I was a little boy when I was 1011 years old. I wanted the President's Council on Physical Fitness award, we had that in grade school and I wanted that award. I was a b c team, AF, you know, traditional sport athlete, I wasn't, I wasn't a starter, that's for sure. That wasn't gonna be on the 18th. But for whatever reason, fitness just was something that I just, I just, I don't know, I just had a passion for it when I was little. So I've still got the sticker in the patch and the certificate from that President's Council award. And that's 45 years old and counting now. And I'm so proud to get that when I was a senior in high school, someone who was a year older than me, who had already developed a really great physique invited me to start come training with him and some friends in the weight room. And I thought, Heck, yeah, this I thought his physique is fantastic. Love to be a part of that. And that's that was in 1982. And I've been training without more than two weeks off in a row since 1982. So, so that was the start of my senior year of high school. Just kind of took some time, obviously to develop a physique. I competed in bodybuilding and powerlifting in my 20s and 30s. I was a police officer became an Illinois State Trooper when I got to the Academy for the state police. I decided that I wanted to try to start a tiny little supplement company mail order company. And if I'd be happy if I could just make enough money with this side hustle back then we didn't call it that. But if I can just make enough money to pay for my own protein powder, I'd be happy. And, and so I'm I'm working 40 hours a week in uniform. And I started this tiny little mail order company I placed little classified ads in the back of like bodybuilding magazines, flex Iron Man muscle mag, and I couldn't afford display ads. That was way too rich for me. And it was just a tiny little room in my house. There was no internet. I gave a toll free number people could call I couldn't even answer the phone because I was a police officer working the roads. So I'd have to call them back. And,
Philip Pape 04:08
and and I would scream and this is how it was done back then this is
David Greenwalt 04:12
how it was done. Yeah. So as it turned out, it was as much a surprise to me as it would beat anybody. But over the over the course between like 1992 and 1997. I grew that company into about 5 million in annual revenue and 45 employees. And so I'm still a police officer. I'm still working. I've got this company. I've got, you know, dozens of employees. And what happened was the Internet came in. And throughout this process my my customers had seen me that they knew that I had competed in bodybuilding. They knew I competed in powerlifting and I also wrote about fitness and health and nutrition and exercise and I'd go to the we had to go to the Medical Library back then to get research and that they had to photocopy the papers and then bring them back to my office and then read them and highlight him. And then I'd write about research and I tested supplements. And I'd send them off to the lab to make sure that they were what the company said they were. And so people knew that I was really just just so in on wanting to provide good information, solid set the record straight type of type of information. So we had 10s of 1000s of customers through the supplement company, and email came, they started emailing me, hey, Dave, real quick, to get a minute, don't want to be a bother, don't want to be a hassle. But if you could just tell me real quick, how I can lose 30 pounds and keep it off forever. And
Philip Pape 05:37
so on my problems right now, just clicking on reply. Yes.
David Greenwalt 05:40
Look, I don't want to be a pest just to be just real quick, you know. And so the thing is, I was so passionate about wanting to help people get from someplace heavier, less healthy, to someplace leaner and healthier. I gave it the old college try, but it didn't take me long to realize that I was doing them a disservice by trying to answer on the back of a napkin, you know. And so a between 1997 and the the first part of 1999, I wrote my book, it's about 500 pages, and it addressed nutrition and exercise and emotional fitness, because I realized even even back then, with as much or as little as I knew how we want to word it, I knew that emotional fitness was a huge driver of keeping the nutrition and exercise components, you know, on the consistent roads. So got that the internet was here, my gosh, Philip, you got email, you've got two way communication, it's unbelievable. And now you've got this thing called a web and you've got wet a web site you can build. So I built that with dial up no fast internet getting disconnected every 15 minutes. And I couldn't even be on the phone in the home at the same time you were on the internet, and but built the site, and provided an online coaching, you know, venue for people. So we could discuss nutrition, exercise, goal setting motivation, and all the elements. And there can be a username, password protected area, that was a 1999. And I've been doing that ever since I sold the supplement company in the early 2000s. Because I was so passionate about wanting to help people. And I realized that that's what I really wanted to do. I didn't know when I was in my 20s that that's what I wanted to do it it evolved it developed over over many years. But once I really started communicating with people in that area of kind of transformation, I was like this is this is what I was meant to do. This is where my heart is, this is where I'm what I'm truly passionate about. And so that's what I've been doing.
Philip Pape 07:31
That's awesome. You know, a lot of people come through as trainers, for example. It almost sounds like you came the the other direction you had the personal experience, having been a competitor. And then just trying to help people right having those conversations, which even today that's the way it's not like that has changed. What's changed is the technology. Right? Right. And then you talk about the also the need for emotional fitness, which as we know, could be at 90% in some people's journeys of what allows them to be successful. So before we get into some of the mindset stuff and body image, you want to talk about your time as a bodybuilder and power lifter. First of all, were you doing those simultaneously, because that sounds challenging. And then you know, what were those experiences? Like?
David Greenwalt 08:13
Yeah, so, you know, my first bodybuilding competition was when I was in college, and I was maybe 20 I didn't I mean, I knew we you know, you had to cut calories and whatever, but I was just I did it so poorly. And I had no money. I'm live in a dorm room. I was cooking peas in a little electric hot pot. You know, boiling, I'm in my dorm room. And same thing for chicken breasts had no money for you know, lots of grocery shopping. I was just just mentally checked out. I hated it. I got super lean, I was shredded the whole thing. But I hated it so much. I swore back then when I did that I swore I would never do it again. And I didn't do it again for almost 12 years, because I hated it. But I did it so wrong. I just did with what I knew, you know. But anyway, it's but I but it did do it again. But I spent a number of years in there, you know also powerlifting and I didn't, didn't do a bunch of back and forth between powerlifting and bodybuilding. I was in powerlifting for probably about eight or 10 years kind of consistently, you know, built the strength that way. On 510. You know, the highest weight I got to was about 235. And then in bodybuilding, I would compete. Well. I competed at the NPC Illinois State Championships when I was 42. That's the last comp bodybuilding competition I've done. So it's been a while. But I did that at about 190 pounds on stage. And so that was that.
Philip Pape 09:52
And you did that the right way. The second time around. Oh,
David Greenwalt 09:56
that was those years. Yeah. Yes. And that was, you know, four or five other competitions. Haftar so when I did come back to it, I said, Okay, I know a lot more, let's come at it more intelligently. Let's learn, you know, let's put into practice what you now know. And it wasn't, it was it was, I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm not saying that. It wasn't hard, it was hard. But it wasn't like, oh my god, this is just as insane. I never want to do this again.
Philip Pape 10:20
And it sounds like those experiences would be extremely valuable to you as a teacher and to relate to people who have to go through not that extreme level of shredding, although perhaps you work with with people who are performance focused, but just the average person, right, and understanding how to manage hunger and, and muscle loss and all that. But so I think that experience is a good segue into the body image discussion. And let's start with the bigger picture, right? The obesity epidemic. If we can start there, what's driving that? And what can we do about it?
David Greenwalt 10:52
So we're not in a good place. And I think that, you know, most people probably already know that, but just kind of by the numbers, we're sitting at 43% Obesity for adults in the United States right now. We were 15% obese in 1970. We're 43%. Today, we're projected to be 50%. obese by 2030 70% of us are overweight. So things have just gone the wrong direction two and a half times more obese now than we were 52 years ago. And projections to go up I see no reason why we won't be 50% obese by 2030. As a society. I'm always hopeful. I'm gonna make sure I put this right up front that every single person listening as an individual doesn't have to follow that trend as an individual, you can totally win this. But so when I bring bring the gray sky to the conversation, I'm talking societal societal numbers population, new repopulation? You bet so that, you know, that's, that's where we are. So what's driving it? What I will say is, I'm, I'm big on not being in a reductionist, but let me try to simplify it in a way that kind of is reductionist, but kind of not what I see as the the number one driver of obesity are all obesogenic factors that contribute to the overconsumption of ultra processed food, including the fact that ultra processed food is addictive, which then becomes obesogenic and further drives the overconsumption of ultra processed food. So, all of the factors external and internal, and they're in there are so many in our modern society, and obesogenic, I just mean that anything that anything that contributes to behaviors driving obesity, anything, you know, you think advertising, the the number, and location of fast food restaurants, convenience stores, 24 cities,
Philip Pape 12:39
subsidies of subsidies of our food supply that make packaged foods cheaper, yeah,
David Greenwalt 12:43
subsidies Absolutely. Follow the money, you're gonna get a lot of answers to a lot of this. And so you've got, you know, you've got policy and legal being influenced by laws that are created by politicians that have big money from or money from Big Food flowing into them, I call it the Monkey Banana relationship. We're all monkeys going for bananas. And if we understand the relationship of the monkey and the banana, we can much more so understand where things don't normally make sense. If you understand the Monkey Banana relationship, things will make a lot more sense. We may still hate it, we may still disagree with it. But at least you go, Oh, okay, that's what's going on. So money flows into the politicians. We do have organizations that are at the federal government level, and state level and so forth are in charge of kind of health and putting up a message for nutrition and obesity, and health and wellness and all that, that is also influenced by, by big food and money. The American Academy of Nutrition Dietetics, which certifies every registered dietitian in the country is influenced by big food. They are they are invested in big food, big foods invested in them. And if anybody thinks that there isn't, there isn't an influence in their messaging that comes out. I don't know what to say. I just say that there absolutely is all of the and here's the thing, I want to make sure I'm clear on this too, because some people get people get really riled up. I am not someone who says these are evil people, these are malevolent people, these are maliciously people and we should stand in front of our house in which you know, this is not this is not me at all. I think that these are generally really good, decent people just trying to live life and contribute in the way they think is meaningful and data, data data. But in the end
Philip Pape 14:35
there's one there's also the incentives right I mean, behavioral economics its incentives are trying to make a living like the rest of us.
David Greenwalt 14:42
Yes. Yeah. Monkey Banana.
Philip Pape 14:44
There you go.
David Greenwalt 14:46
So So I look at him like that but here's the thing, my my position on it by at least understanding you know, follow the money, the Monkey Banana relationship, however you want to say it is it's about more so helping us to under Stand there relationships so we can adjust our relationship.
Philip Pape 15:03
Right? Right. And it's what we can control, not what we can't.
David Greenwalt 15:07
Right? That's right. And, you know, we can't work. Here's the thing, I think, and I'm a generally very positive person. But I'm a realist. So I think that you and I are probably going to be in our grave before the big societal picture is fixed, but I'm super positive. And again, at the individual level, we don't have to wait for them. We can't wait for a top down approach to fix this. This that's, I'm not saying it's never going to happen. Never say never. We're already seeing changes in the in processed foods as far as what's being put in and what they're doing to it. Because we are voting with our pocketbooks more, we are saying no, to the to some of the 3000 industrial additives that are put in our food supply and what's how it's used, and how it's made. And again, what's the primary driver? What's the Monkey Banana relationship, a big food, it's profit. And if they can profit more on producing a better product for us, then they'll do that. And if we keep voting with our pocketbook, they'll continue to do it. But even so we can't wait for that top down approach. It's going to be a bottom up, and we just, we have to just look out for ourselves as individuals. And if so we're gonna be just fine.
Philip Pape 16:14
Yeah, so there you go. It's, it's the buck stops with the choices we make, at the end of the day, knowing this context, which I imagine a lot of people aren't fully educated or, you know, there's an unconscious level of, you know, herd mentality to this whole thing. And I think, you know, like, podcasts like this, and your message that gets out there, we're doing our part as best we can. And many of us I know, I didn't have necessarily the athletic background you did. But it took me decades to figure this stuff out myself. And I'm the kind of guy like you positive I think I'm in control. I think I know a lot. And still, the ignorance was there despite my best efforts. So yeah, yeah. So now, we want to talk about body body positivity, which is closely linked to obesity, right? Because we talk about outside factors, the obesogenic environment, and then perhaps that leads to the thought, Well, you're a big person, or you're at an obese weight, and he can't really help it. And so we shouldn't criticize, or judge people for how they look, you know, healthy at any size, all of that messaging, which can get thorny and controversial. But I know we're going to treat it with the right nuance here and respect. So what do you think about that movement?
David Greenwalt 17:21
First of all, I I, I generally understand how kind of despondent a lot of people are, who have tried and battle this hundreds of times, where you've you consider false starts and start stops and start on Monday, and you're done by Tuesday and, or whatever, whatever the thing may be. Where in the in the environment we're in with the messaging that is that has been given, again, from top down from top health, government, Top Health edu, Academy of Nutrition, and dietetics supposed to be the trusted nutrition source for dietitians and everything, all things in moderation, eat less and exercise more, never say no to anything, you get a craving, make sure you have some other ways it can do this and do that. There's no such thing as a bad food, blah, blah, blah, all of that messaging, first of all, it hasn't worked. Look at us look where we are 43%, obese versus 15%, they've done a poor job on getting, if that was their goal, if their goal was to help us stay or get healthy, they have failed. So with that in mind, I understand because I work with people every single day who are not completely hopeless, Otherwise, they wouldn't find me. There's still there's still a little bit of hope there. Right? Where they're like, Oh, I almost don't believe that it's possible for me to witness. But I have a 1% tiny little piece of flickering ash in me, you know, that says I just don't want to accept where I'm at. I'm, I'm not happy where I'm at. I'm, you know, I'm dissatisfied in so many ways. But I understand that, since you know, the failure rate is somewhere between 80 and 95%, for keeping it off, you know, and I get that it's like, at some point, I think there's this, this movement is kind of been like, Look, guys, you know, everything that's been put out there hasn't worked. Of course, you know, when you look at 80 to 95%? Well, if we look at the general messaging, again, top down big messaging, big influential groups, their messaging hasn't worked. It's not surprising to me that it hasn't worked because it hasn't addressed what I call kind of six pillars that have to be looked at, you need to look at nutrition, you've got to look at exercise, fine. Everybody looks at that. That's usually what people are thinking, by the way, when they say I know what to do, I just need to do it. And when they when they say I know what to do, I just need to do it. And I know I'm tangent A tangent in here a bit. There's third thinking nutrition exercise, eat a little less and better exercise a little more and better. I got it. But you don't got it that because that's only two of the six. We've got to look at intrinsic motivation, what drives willpower, we've got to look at compulsive eating addiction. We've got to look at emotional fitness and then we've got to see what personal professional and spiritual support might that person need as an individual Those are the six pillars nutrition exercise, intrinsic motivation, compulsive eating addiction, that's one, emotional fitness is a big category and one, and then what level of support will an individual need? Well, I mean, come on, the average person out there who's been battling this, the average person who maybe kind of as you, you segwayed, into, maybe into this, let's just Oh, my God, let's just accept where we are, let's just say that heck with it, you know, we've tried, I've tried hundreds of times, and so have millions of others, we aren't succeeding, we try to apply the messaging that's been given to us, it doesn't work, I haven't been able to make it work for me, and neither of these millions of other people. So and I've seen film, I've seen researchers, I've written researchers who have given up, the researchers have given up, not across the board, but I've seen them here and there, where they're like, basically, the best thing someone can hope for is just don't gain any more. Right. And I'm like, I write a researcher, I'm like, shame on you, for giving up Shame on you, for you with the education you have. And all the resources you have to, to not looking at, I'm going to call it the six pillars, but looking at the other factors that are almost never addressed, but have to be addressed. If we want to win this once. And for all this can be one, we I see it every day with my own clients, other people see it with their clients. But when people really have put into place, what's really necessary to win this, this absolutely can be won. Back to your your kind of your state and your question. I don't blame people for being at a point where they're like, man, we just, I just want to at least feel good about life, you know, I'm gonna feel good about where I'm at. So from a body positivity position like that, I very much am sympathetic to it. I am going to say I understand it the best I can. And but even so, you know, we can we can kind of take it from here.
Philip Pape 21:53
Yeah, so it sounds like the the message here is, we're so conditioned to failure. We're so conditioned to everything having that we've tried hasn't worked. And even if we think we're doing the right thing, nutrition and training, that's only to have, like you said, the six pillars actually like the way you organize that because I haven't heard it quite structured that way. But it's complete. I can imagine a pie chart or something like that, right? Filling in the whole picture. The motivation, the compulsive eating, the emotional and support side are here, right? They're massive, even so when you throw in the nutrition and training, I'm sure you've seen that people don't really understand what the right thing is to do. Many times, even with nutrition and training does that truth right? It is.
David Greenwalt 22:34
And so a lot of people come in and go, I know what to do, I just need to do it nutrition exercise. Got it. Just give me the seven day diet and exercise plan. Dave, thanks so much little accountability, again, and I'll be on my way. And, and here's the thing is that first of all, I don't know what you know about nutrition, you may know some things and maybe you've got it pretty solid, but then again, maybe you don't there's so much misinformation out there. You know, and I don't know what you've consumed, I don't know what you've read listen to. So first of all, we really have to make sure without being dogmatic, overly rigid, and all this kind of stuff, we need to make sure that they have a real understanding of nutrition for the purposes of health and fitness. And the same thing for exercise do they have what they need to be able to perform exercise in a way that's gonna be meaningful to them and, and promoting of healthspan and lifespan and all the things they want out of it? Whatever that may be physique and whatever it may be? So let's assume that we get that to that point. And if I ask someone Hey, what's general what do we record? What are we generally mean by you know, good nutrition? What do we generally mean by proper amount of proper type and amount of exercise? And let's say they can regurgitate that back? Great, they bought but they're sitting at two right now. Got it?
Philip Pape 23:47
Yeah, but you and but your process, I like your process, because and you use use the free student member when you talk about your, your clients of getting to getting them to that baseline, right? Because you'll you'll have someone come to you and I get this too, if interested clients. Well, but I'm doing paleo and running a lot. So I've got that covered. Now, why is everything not working? Like okay, we have to peel back and get to the premise of all this first and rebuild the foundation. So listening to podcasts like this will get you there and listen to what David has to say. All right, um, you know, I want to talk about fit shaming, but I think there's a lot more to cover in the on the on the fat shaming or the body positivity, whatever phrases we want to use. On the mindset side, you mentioned this defeatist mindset, right? Where people have basically given up or maybe they have that flicker of hope, but it's close. And a lot of people criticize someone for not having willpower, right? That's the common thing like if this is all you have to do, and we've established that the even the basic education isn't there, but let's say everybody knew the right thing to do. You're just not doing it right. You just have to whatever it is, eat less exercise more whatever. It's just energy balance. We know energy balance is true, but but to say that and that you're lacking willpower and people don't just do it. What are your thoughts on that? You know, approach.
David Greenwalt 25:02
So yeah, very, very strong thoughts on that. And I but I want to just plant this and if we don't get to it, we don't. But I want to plant this that I that while I am 100% 100% all in that every single person has certain inalienable rights, to love respect, if you're just trying to be a good person, I don't care what size you are, I don't care at all zero care about that, other than the concerns I have, with regard to obesity in the issues that that relate to that from a health perspective. But as far as a human being perspective, zero, love, respect, consideration, empathy, all the things that we as humans should be just granted period for being alive if we're trying to be a good person. I'm 100%. All in on that. And if we if we go back to that, I'll talk about the two concerns I have that have nothing to do with whether someone's good or bad. You know, it's not a judgment type thing, but just concerns I have and what is obesity and all that. With regard to your your question, that you just asked, Why don't people just do it? What about willpower? One of the things, you know, when I was telling you that, you know, back in 1997, when people were emailing me, hey, Dave, real quick, if you get a chance, no big deal. 30 pounds, keep it off forever. That's still a mindset that's here today, where it's minimized. They don't understand what it's going to take. They don't understand what's involved with all that we have going on and how obesogenic our society is and all the forces working against them, when they don't know what things to look at the, let's say the six pillars, but they also don't they also minimize what it's going to take everybody eats, everybody moves. It shouldn't be that hard. And we all know, here's the thing, I always say, I can come to your city and stand on tallest building with a bullhorn and scream, eat less and exercise more, and people will look up and go, I know. I mean, we there's a, there's an inherent understanding of energy balance, we have to take in less energy than we expend. If we do we'll lose weight, hopefully most of it fat. If we take in more energy, you know, then we expend, we're gonna gain and if we take an equal amount that will stay the same. I don't know what it is 80% 90% of the people if you ask them that they're good. Yeah, I know. So the thing that they're missing, though, is everything else. All that's left is all the rest. And so, and all the rest is a lot so one of them is they minimize the why they're going to need you know, the why is so critical. Why power drives willpower? And kind of proof and evidence just they is the thought exercise is people think they don't have willpower. And I don't think that someone that's 300 pounds, 400 pounds, I don't think I don't think they don't have what they have willpower. They've demonstrated it over and over and over again. If they weren't this present example, if anybody works for someone else, do you? When's the last time you were late for work? Good point. Yeah. I mean, it takes willpower my definition. My adapted definition is the the ability to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done whether you feel like it or not. You go to work regardless. Well, what about when you're sick go to work. What about when you're tired? Go to work. What about when you got two hours sleep and the kid was crying, crying all last night with a fever go to work? What about when you know, you just got done crying yourself for 20 minutes because there was a emotional upheaval in the family you lost your love, you go to work, it's you go to work. And not only do you go to work, you go to work on time. And not only do you go to work on time a lot, a lot of days you're at least somewhat productive you know, your job and so you do these things and that's a huge demonstration of willpower and you have it Why do people do that? That's the answer their Why is incredibly strong for keeping the job. All the things that gives them money is one of the things but also you know feelings of contribution and satisfaction and community or whatever it may be. There's a huge why for why people go to work. Same thing if people have young children when was the last time you didn't pick up your kid from school when they needed to be picked up? Did you just say Nah, I'm not in the mood today. Of course you didn't you went because even though you were tired sick just had an argument with your spouse. Whatever the thing is, you went picked up the child because your why for making sure your child knows they can count on you is so strong. You will do it no matter what. You have an advanced degree. It's hard as hell. Did you always you always go to class study and do the things you needed to do when you were in the mood? Absolutely not. That took incredible willpower anything hard long, that isn't necessarily naturally in your wheelhouse. Or that you would just kind of choose to do no matter what some Things you're just passionate about right? Things we are like nobody has to tell me to do XYZ. I love it so much even so there's still a strong why there, but it's just more something that somebody is more naturally inclined to want to do. Things that aren't like that. You've got to incredibly crazy why and why powers driving willpower? When people come at obesity or weight management, they minimize that. They come out and you say, Why do you want to do this had just want to get a little healthier? That's not gonna work. That's not enough. It's a start. It's nothing wrong with it. It's just not developed. It hasn't been really drilled down into this, we have to get the why incredibly, emotionally driving strong, much stronger than what people realize. And so it's a third, it's a third pillar, and it's minimized, it's and if there's a work, it's not going to work. Why because the obesogenic environment, the factors that are working against us are so strong, so powerful. If we have the why we can persist. You know, we can persist. Even though life is throwing us curveballs, we can persist. Without exception, we can persist, no matter what happens, we may not always do it, right. We're not always going to wake up every day and slay the dragon, we're not going to do it. But we can do it much more often, much more consistently if our Y is strong. So one of the things we do is help our student members develop their why fully develop their y, so that they are really ready to wake up and face the day and be like, okay, yes, this isn't, this isn't something that I kind of want to do or that I kind of thought about, or it'd be nice. I have to have this. This is something I have to do
31:44
now to Philippe and hopefully for a long time, I don't know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. Now I have a more balanced diet, I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.
Philip Pape 32:29
I just want to explore that one one later, deeply. Because it's a common thing I see where people are asked what their goal is. And their goal is, like you said it's at the superficial level, it's almost the method that they're they're regurgitating is the goal, you know, the the losing fat or the getting fit, right? It's almost a method or a small piece of the whole process, where the Why might be, like you said, emotionally tied to being a role model for their kids and being there when they're older and being able to enjoy these activities that they couldn't enjoy otherwise, et cetera. How do you what kind of activity or exercise do you go through that maybe the listener can try on their own?
David Greenwalt 33:07
So you know, one of the things that one of the things that you can do to at least start with is, you know, you want to consider, you know, kind of certain categories, you know, how might your why this kind of just be thinking about these things? How might your y affect family relationships, professional aspirations, career aspirations? We know there's bias there. How might it affect aspirational things? What are things that you've put on hold? Or is there anything socially that you want to do more of that you've put on hold or that you avoid, because you don't want to be in that situation? That's so common. So those are some things to kind of think of, you know, category and then also physicality things, I want sculpted shoulders, and I'm not talking body builder, but you know, let's just say, you know, a common thing for a woman again, it varies as are stars in the skies, but it is the common thing that is a woman wants to wear be able to wear a sleeveless, I'd like to be able to wear a sleeveless and feel good about my shoulders and arms. That's all I don't need to get on stage but just to feel good about what I'm wearing. I want to be able to shop my closet, I've got four sizes of clothes in my closet, I don't need to go buy more clothes, I just want to fit into the ones I fit into. So those are kind of physicality things. So that's a part of it. Kind of looking at all these various categories where here's the thing, weight loss, transformation can't fix everything, it can't, but what it can do are the things that we should focus on with respect to the transformation what can it actually impact? Will it affect mental health? Likely will it affect positivity likely might that impact relationships, very likely, might that impact communication? Yes, might you feel better feel more confident? So, just as a practical exercise, just as a starter, something that I will say is start with? I want blank so Fill that blank. I want blank. So that blank, that's like a, it's like a chapter heading on your whiteboard. Okay, you know.
Philip Pape 35:11
And that's important because the first blank is where people often stop. Like, that's why I want blank No, but why you want blank,
David Greenwalt 35:18
right? So that what and then you can start to drill down by saying, let me see if I can just give them a quick example, I want to let's say they're going to use a number, I want to weigh 160 pounds, so that I fit comfortably in a normal airplane seat. Because people can take it for granted. But if you're, if you're not large, you can take for granted. But if you're large, that's something that I've had, I can't tell you how many clients just something thing I want to fit I want to fit in. So let's just say that's,
Philip Pape 35:52
that's the thing. No, this is great. Yeah, it's sorry, we 160
David Greenwalt 35:56
pounds so I can fit comfortably. And in that center, not an aisle seat. So I can fit in the center seat of, you know, an airplane. So that what Yeah, what do I say? So that I can do that. Alright, so then we go. So the next question would be, it's important to me that I can fit comfortably in an airplane seat, because what follows the because so that starts to write the chapter. So the chapter heading is I want blank, so that blank, but we start to write the chapter when we we look at whatever followed so that we look at that, whatever that thing is. And we ask this question, we say it this way, it's important to me that I can fit comfortably in an airplane seat, just as an example. Because, and then you start to expand on that. And then that starts to get emotional. You know, sometimes the I want. So that is emotional. But that starts to get emotional, because then we start drilling down, what does it mean to you to be able to fit in an airplane seat comfortably? What does that mean? You know, what does that what difference does that make? Who cares? Well, I'll tell you why. Because of this, I mean, so you start filling in the blank on that. And you can start adding multiple supportive statements to the chapter. And you can just kind of, you can kind of start building it that way, and start drilling down. So there are lots of do's and don'ts. But basically, you know, as far as getting a start, that's a good way to start. And it's something that most people have never heard.
Philip Pape 37:26
Yeah, I love that. You put it into a, you put it into a narrative, a story. And it's, there's a drier version of that, that I learned in the engineering world called five whys. And it's a root cause technique where you simply just keep asking why, which is effectively what you're doing. But you're doing it in a way that tells an entire story. You could say, I want this, why? Because of this, well, why because of this, and you keep going down that you're effectively doing that. But it's a very powerful tool, because you get to that root cause. Yeah, and the other and the other thing you alluded to when some of your examples is, it doesn't have to be I mean, the reason is yours. The reason is your like, don't let anybody judge you for it. It could be a vanity reason. It could be, you know, a very powerful reason. One question I've asked people is what what would you like to be doing when you're 90? Like, what physical feat would you like to accomplish when we're talking strength? What do you want to still be able to do when you're 90 and then kind of let that drive you as well? It's good stuff, David. All right. Yes, stuff.
David Greenwalt 38:23
Yeah. Can I just say on the vanity thing, it's a common thing. You just I hadn't thought of it. But you mentioned. And here's the thing. A lot of people will stop short on even putting in their why? What they really want, because they're afraid they're going to sound vain. But here's the thing. Vanity is excessive pride. excessive pride. Just because you want to feel proud, doesn't mean you have excessive pride. It doesn't mean you're standing on a perch, it doesn't mean you're a narcissist. It doesn't mean that you are all the negative things where you know, you are now looking down on people and you're just feeling pride. I feel proud that I accomplished this. I feel proud. I feel proud. Is it okay? If I feel proud that our three grown kids are amazing. I would think it's okay, if I as a parent, feel proud of my kids, and that I'm so proud of them. And I'm so proud, I can be proud. I hope that we as parents, least did what we did to contribute in some way to them, you know, being good. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Why are you feeling good about that without being overblown? Do I have plenty of things that I could have could have would have showed up? You know, raising our kids. Yes, I still have awareness of that just because I feel proud about it. But why can't we feel that way? Why can't we put that stuff into our why? And I say do it put it in there. What do you really want you know, things that you will feel proud about? Put it in there. It's not excessive unless it is and and unless You're judging others and pointing right looking down on others and things like that, if you're not doing that, and you're living, let live, do it, put it in there.
Philip Pape 40:09
And I love that that is really good. I mean, just the fact that vanity is excessive pride, but you just want to get to, you just want to get to a baseline that would make you satisfied with what you've done in life. Right? You know, or even a little more than that, but not excessively. Right. And you alluded to that. Don't Don't judge other people. But also, if you're listening to this, or, you know, someone that is trying to improve their life, for whatever reason, let's not shame them either. And I see this happen in in groups or families, particularly where everybody's struggling a bit right with their health. So one person decides to be the outlier. Yeah, and and do something different. And all of a sudden, you know, you're weird. Why are you doing this? There's no way you could get healthier. Look at us as the family tree, you're making us look bad, or just just a lack of, you know, an apathy about it. Yeah, the list goes on. And people listening in you, David know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. And there's a phrase, I guess, fit shaming, we can call it whatever we want. It's that double standard people criticize others for trying to get in shape, improve their health, and so on. Yeah, your thoughts about that?
David Greenwalt 41:14
First of all, there is a bit of a double standard, I'll take, I'll take the compliment that it mostly is, even if it's left handed to a degree, I'll take the compliment in a day of the week over living the alternative. And that's just me, each person do their thing. But to be able to be fit enough where someone feels there, they can be comfortable enough to comment. I'll take that. And I'll take it and listen. I'm not saying that when I take it, I don't go oh, my god, are you? You know, of course I do. You know, a day, you know, I don't see any protein in that brownie. You're getting ready at the family function? I'm sure that's you're sure that's got protein in it, Dave? No, no, it, it doesn't doesn't have much protein now, you know. So. And that's not something you would say, I shouldn't say that there are people who are cruel. So in my mind, I can hardly picture because I just wouldn't do it. I would never say to someone who is obvious. They're struggling with their weight data, data. Sure. You want that extra piece of cake, Sally or whatever, at the fan. Oh, my God. But I know there are cruel people out there. And there are people that are cruel that do that. So I'm not saying it doesn't happen to them. It does. But what you're saying, you know, it definitely does happen. I think it mostly or a lot of times is not mean spirited. Sometimes it is the person themselves, who says it may be feeling whatever they're feeling about their own journey. They aren't feeling as competent in their own journey. And so or, or they just kind of feel like maybe the person is that they're talking to has a level of fitness, where they're not saying they think this way, but the so this may not be the gist, right? But it's almost like they're wearing a coat of armor. You know, because you're just you've got it together. You're intimidated, maybe. Yeah, yeah. And so you'll be able to take this and you'll know how I mean it, and you won't be offended and it won't hurt your feelings. And but sometimes it does. But even so I'd still rather be in the position I am and go. Alright, I gotta, again, I'm going to use emotional fitness to process the sting, you know, someone saying something, because of the double standard or whatever, and just try to get on. You get on with life. But does it happen? Oh, yeah.
Philip Pape 43:22
Yeah, yeah. It's just a very interesting thing. Because you do talk about one of the pillars being support. And I'm always thinking about, you know, the people you surround yourself with, like you said, if it's, if it's innocent, if it's not intended that way, and you'll you'll probably know that there's nuances and conversation all the time. And again, like you said, if you're doing the things you feel are right, for you with pride, and not excessive pride, you just move on, and you probably have built up some level of not not armor in the way you were intending it but our good armor against this. Resilience, right?
David Greenwalt 43:53
Yes, yeah. Yes. I, and just, you know, I think again, I think generally, generally speaking, if you're really super fit, you're going to stand out. And because that's not the norm, I mean, if you're truly fit, you know, we can define we can define, you know, health related physical fitness, we can define it, you know, cardio, respiratory endurance, muscular endurance, muscle, muscular strength, flexibility, body composition, are the five components. If you have all of those high cardio, muscular endurance, muscular strength, body composition, flexibility, you have all of those high, you're going to look like it, right Oh, those are high, you're going to look like Man, that guy is fit or that gals fit, you know, and you're gonna stand out because that is not the norm. And you're gonna stand out in a positive way. And I think most people most will look at that person and go, way to go, you know, now that may not be what comes out of their mouth.
Philip Pape 44:47
No, but it's true. You're right. You're right. It was
David Greenwalt 44:49
a piece of that. I'm at least I think for most people are who go Dang. Okay, you know, maybe they don't think they can do it. Maybe they're like, Oh, I could never do that but go for you, but it also may still come out when you have that piece of brownie at the family function, you know, how many protein there?
Philip Pape 45:06
Oh, hopefully it's motivated to I mean, at least I tried to look at it that way. And anybody that is doing things that I would aspire to get closer to, even though again, we shouldn't compare ourselves to people, because everyone's different, but at least, you know, using it as a positive of like, okay, I'm gonna take those thoughts and I know, make them into something that works for me. All right, so I have a whole bunch more questions, but we don't have a ton more time. So I'm going to, I'm going to focus on maybe we were going to talk about things like food addiction and flexible eating. So maybe a little talk about the actual food specifics. You mentioned, the, you know, no food is off limits approach, or the, you know, there's no good or bad food. We have the concepts of flexible dieting, which for some people, it's different things, I think it is like whatever Alan Aragon's kind of path of flexible dieting, where it's not anarchy, you know, it's not, If It Fits Your Macros so much as a macro and calorie guidelines within which you have some flexibility, but you're gonna limit your processed foods to an extent, just go I mean, tell me what your what your thoughts are on the topic,
David Greenwalt 46:09
you bet. So, you know, my thing as far as again, applying these moral, you know, assessments to what we eat, it's good, it's bad. I don't healthy, unhealthy, I don't I look at it, are we eating real food and doesn't work for you. So, you know, I think that, again, I've adapted a working definition of real food, based off of a food classification system called the Nova food classification, and developed by Professor out of Brazil been around 1012 years now, it's, it's making the rounds, and has been in the research now for quite some time, very heavily being looked at respected, nothing's perfect. It's not either, but I really like what Nova food classification looks at, because they look heavily at the processing. And so my working definition from theirs again, you'd have to, they're a semester long things that would have to get into their breakdown. But mine is this real food is whole or minimally processed, edible parts of plant and animal, where if anything's been added to it, it's whole or minimally processed ingredients commonly found in kitchens. So me say it again, quick, because I think it just kind of people like what he just said, whole are mentally process edible parts of plant and animal where if anything's been added to it, it's whole or minimally processed, ingredients commonly found in kitchens. So, you know, it's, you know, you think about your single ingredient things very common, you know, your single ingredient, animal based products, or single ingredient, plant based products, sure, but there's also combination products that are that are absolutely just fine, too, you can have a merit, a jarred marinara on the shelf. And the ingredients can be tomatoes, basil, oregano, garlic, you know, blah, blah, blah. And as long as those are the ingredients, it's what we call real food. So basically, everything else, even that is at least minimally processed. But almost everything else, if it's not real food is ultra processed. Not everything, there's nuance to it. And so we want to minimize that our goal is to try it out. Right now, Americans are eating 60 to 90% of what they eat is ultra processed food 60 to 90%. It's crazy. And so what we want to do, and that's what's happened is that's crowded out real food, it's crowded out, all we want to do is we want to reverse that. And I'm not saying we eliminate Ultra processed food, but I'd like to get real food up to 90%. That's like the pinnacle, you know, 90% intake, real food you go. That's crazy, David, you're insane, dude. Well, that is how we ate for hundreds of 1000s of years. It's exactly how we ate for hundreds of 1000s year we ate real food. It's what we're designed to eat our body knows what to do with it. And as I said at the top of this, what's the primary contributing factor to obesity in the United States, all obesogenic factors that contribute to the overconsumption of all processed foods? Yes. You know, so we kind of came full circle there. But So with regard to kind of what you were saying, I'm flexible, you know, I said this to somebody just the other day, they're like, Okay, somebody was trying to kind of help create kind of a vision. This is a different podcast, and their thing was just their whole focus was different, but they were trying to create a vision of things, you know, to avoid, they're like, Okay, I would want people to avoid, you know, pizza and cookies. And I said, Well, it depends. I mean, if you're eating 90% real food, and as a part of your 10% you can have pizza or cookies, or whatever it is, and remember, is it real food and does it work for you? People will pound their fist. You can do it with what you can do with salted peanuts. They'll pound their fists and go to real food. Dave, I'm good to go. Does it work for you? It doesn't work for you if you eat the whole jar.
Philip Pape 49:47
Right? Does it work for you your goals? Does it make you feel good? All right.
David Greenwalt 49:52
Do you get gastrointestinal distress does it give you gas and diarrhea? Is a cloud your your brain get foggy afterwards? Okay. Even if it's real food, if it doesn't work for you, we got to figure out what we're going to do about it. So, so yeah, we have to look at, you know, all all of these things, to really, really get a handle on what's really going on. So real food 90%. That's why generally, let's put it this way, at least, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that categorically anything's off limits, it's going to vary person to person, I just would like to see real food crowd out Ultra processed foods.
Philip Pape 50:30
That is that is exactly the phrase I use. I love it that you're saying that. And it often starts for me with protein, because people are underfed on protein. And the argument I like to make is if you go to the grocery store and find whatever sources of protein you can, it's very hard to find very much processed foods that are protein, you know, high enough and protein and you inevitably have to go to the animal and plant sources. It kind of you know, you're not thinking Whole Foods unnecessarily consciously you think and then you get protein, what's going to serve me what's right for me? Yeah. And then it starts to crowd out other things. Well, if I need to get 180 grams of protein, I'm not going to have too much room for these things. Yeah. Now what about? So like, whey protein is always brought up with me? And I think that's pretty much a whole food. But don't tell me what you think. Yeah, it's arguable. It is.
David Greenwalt 51:15
It's it. I think it's in a in a bit of a nuanced I think that, again, if you take a let's just say, everybody says whey protein, what whey protein, so spin it around, let's look at the ingredients. If the ingredients are, you know, whole or minimally processed, edible parts of plant and animal were the only thing added to it is holer, minimally processed ingredients commonly found in kitchens, then you can say it's processed, but it's we can still possibly call it real food. But if you get like a flavored whey protein, and now it's got 20,
Philip Pape 51:41
suka artificial flavors and all that yet
David Greenwalt 51:44
Ultra processed for sure. Whey Protein and and lecithin as the emulsifier. You know, I mean, I don't know what Nova would say on that. I think Nova might say processed, maybe they wouldn't say Ultra process. Because, you know, in my years back when I was talking about I think I talked about when I had the supplement company. Yeah, when I had the supplement company, you know, I actually went to Minnesota, I went to land a lakes in Minnesota, because I had a protein produced for me and I toured their plant, I saw how it was made. And if we're talking about drying, and we're talking about filtering, and we're talking about things like that, where we haven't added in things we haven't added in acid washes, and we haven't added things in but it's a drying and a filtering process. I think it you know, you could probably, if it's just an unflavored whey, you know, or it's whey isolate and cocoa, okay, commonly found in kitchens, fine. You know, we could say it's maybe it's just processed, but not Ultra processed. By the way, what that thing you and I are talking about right there that specific food is not the reason that we have obesity.
Philip Pape 52:52
That's a great point. It's like if people bring up fruit, you know, I'm like fruit is not the cause of obesity.
David Greenwalt 52:58
That is not, it is not? I know, no,
Philip Pape 53:02
that is a good point, like, do we even need to talk much about it? That's more of an optimization thing, right? You've got things, then you're like, Okay, let me go to more. Even even myself. I know, I occasionally have the big tubs of the cheaper protein because I gotta get it in. Right? Yeah, you know, I should probably spend a little more occasionally in the stuff that doesn't have the extra ingredients. Alright, so how about, I just I'll ask you my penultimate question that I ask all guests, and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
David Greenwalt 53:30
Wow. You know, I don't have because I was able to at least mention the six pillars. It's important that people know that any one of those could be the showstopper. And I'll reverse I'll reverse the sentence. It could also be the difference maker in success. So I don't think you've missed any questions. I think that okay. Oh, all right. I'll do this one, because we looked at body positivity. What's my concern with body positivity Dave?
Philip Pape 54:03
What's your? What's your answer?
David Greenwalt 54:06
So my thing is, it's, again, not the person. Absolutely not human inalienable rights. Let them be, don't judge them, you know, ever right? You also don't know if they're healthy. Right? You know, you can tell by looking at them that they may be obese, you can tell by looking at them that maybe their waist circumference as a female is greater and 35 greater than 40 is a male got it? But that's only one factor. So instead of instead of looking at someone and saying that person is obviously unhealthy, because there'll be you don't know, you can't tell you can't see their biomarkers. You can't see the measurements other than the physical one, you know, on the outside, so why am I concerned one, I'm concerned when someone does reach the obese status and I'm concerned because obesity is a known risk factor for increased incidence of cancer stroke, heart disease, diabetes, systemic inflammation, dementia, naphthyl D, non alcoholic fatty liver disease, arthritis. as autoimmune disorders and eventual long term care, and that's kind of part one at the individual level, I'm concerned for the individual I'm with Body Mass Index defining obesity and a body mass index being 30, or greater being obese. And then there are three classes of obesity 30 to 34.9 is class 135 to 35 39.9 is class two and 40. And up is class three, the moral beasts, the more likely these things are to occur, I am not as concerned and I am not someone, as a coach who says, You've got to be, you've got to have a BMI of 25 or less, which was, you know, with under 2024 point now, 18.5 to 24.9 is the healthy normal weight range by BMI. It's the 30. And up because the research starts to get much stronger, where we start to not equivocate so much, we can equivocate it with a BMI of 2728, whatever, and maybe the very, very lowest end of obesity. But once that starts to decline, then my concerns that I just raised our concerns for that reason their health is going to suffer. And then part two of that is we all are sharing the cost of the increased cost of obesity, there is an increased cost of obesity, and so I'm concerned for the individual. But I also think it's unsustainable as a society for us to continue in the direction we are, and just get to the point where we don't, as individuals, try and solve it for ourselves first, because we can't wait for the top down, but eventually top down doing what they can to try to help, you know, bring the obesity epidemic down, because you're looking at obesity in the United States costing us on what $173 million, you know, extra year, someone who's obese, that cost them health care wise, $3,508 more per year for that individual. And that's if they don't have lots of medications and in need of surgeries and kind of chronic medical care. It's it's very, very expensive to us all. And you know, Medicare and Medicaid, pay a huge portion of the increased medical costs. Who pays for Medicare and Medicaid? We all do. There's a shared costs tax base, you name it, but there's a shared cost in that. And so we're all paying more, I'm gonna say not because individuals have your failures as individuals, you're weak willed. I hope I've gotten the message across. I don't see that at all. The messaging from top down has failed. We've created this environment that's incredibly obesogenic we have given them the wrong information. Well, not enough of the right information. Some of its right not enough of the right information. It's half cocked, it's it's influenced and biased by, by money, the Monkey Banana relationship. So we've got these millions of people that are suffering in obesity, with huge costs, huge eventual health and lifestyle and healthspan cost to them as individuals, and then huge costs to us, which I see is unsustainable. So I'm only really concerned on the kind of the body positivity side is for one, knock it off, if you're just a mean person, okay? Don't you know, I don't care who you're doing it to stop it. No one deserves that. But I am concerned for them as individuals, I'm concerned for us as a society because of the increased costs. And what is actually paying for this. And again, huge, a huge amount of it is Medicare, Medicaid.
Philip Pape 58:29
Great message. And I think Is it true that anyone, no matter what state they're in today can improve their health?
David Greenwalt 58:37
Oh, gosh, here's, I'm gonna take it a step further. Yes. And I'm gonna say this, no matter what you've been told, no matter what your family history is, no matter what your genetics are, no matter what you've been dealt or handed, you know, in life, I want to say, Please don't give up because you absolutely can win this, you can get to any healthy weight you want. And you can live there, plus or minus 10 pounds, whatever, somewhere in that range. No one lives there perfectly. You can live there for life. I don't care if you're 60 listening to this, I don't care if you're 19 you can get there. And you can live there for life. It's it's not a wonder if you've struggled it's not a wonder if what with what you've heard, what top down messaging has been that you haven't achieved it yet. But don't give up because you absolutely can't. You haven't
Philip Pape 59:29
done it yet. And you can That's the message and that's a great message. So thank you David for coming on. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?
David Greenwalt 59:37
I'll keep it simple when I when I when I when I name this leanness lifestyle, you know, 24 years ago I don't you know if I didn't know what I was gonna be doing it this long. I probably would have made it a little easier. So just made the website a little easier, and that'd be the place to go. All our links to social are there too, but it's L L university.com.
Philip Pape 59:55
l l university.com. I'll put those in the show notes so listeners can find you, David This was a pleasure. We covered so many topics just scratched the surface, I feel, but I really thank you for coming on the show.
David Greenwalt 1:00:06
You bet it was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Philip Pape 1:00:09
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 66: Sustaining Fat Loss Results and Maximizing Recovery for The Long Game with Jeff Hoehn
Today, we dive into weight maintenance and recovery with our special guest Jeff Hoehn. Jeff brings a wealth of experience in nutrition and training, shedding light on the importance of managing fatigue and living at maintenance, which is often overlooked or misunderstood. We share evidence-based strategies for long-term success in sustaining fat loss and maintaining strength as you age.
Today, we dive into weight maintenance and recovery with our special guest Jeff Hoehn. Jeff brings a wealth of experience in nutrition and training, shedding light on the importance of managing fatigue and living at maintenance, which is often overlooked or misunderstood. We share evidence-based strategies for long-term success in sustaining fat loss and maintaining strength as you age.
Jeff, the owner of JH Health & Fitness, transformed his own physique through various building and fat loss phases, bodybuilding competitions, and injury rehab. As a knowledgeable online coach, Jeff empowers his clients with both skills and knowledge for sustainable progress. I invited Jeff, a fellow curious learner and host of The Mind Muscle Connection podcast, to share his insights and strategies from interviewing experts on his show and years of hands-on experience.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[3:17] Jeff's motivation and vision for fitness coaching and podcasting
[7:29] Coaching values
[11:11] Weight maintenance and sustaining body composition
[13:29] Challenges with weight maintenance
[21:24] Differences between maintenance and fat loss phases
[23:06] Set point theory and its impact on weight maintenance
[26:08] Addressing metabolic adaptation after a fat loss phase
[32:13] Lisa credits Philip's coaching for her 17-lb weight loss and gives him a grateful shout-out
[32:57] Importance of tracking during weight maintenance
[36:44] Strategies for addressing weight fluctuations
[40:30] Determining readiness to train and recovery status
[42:28] The importance of and factors affecting recovery
[44:55] Role of rest days and deloads in programming
[47:22] Volume, intensity, frequency, and exercise selection in recovery
[51:27] Non-training factors that influence recovery, including age and gender
[56:49] Personal approach to recovery and overcoming setbacks
[1:00:04] Influential podcast guests and personal relationships
[1:02:07] Memorable feedback from podcast listeners or clients
[1:04:13] Jeff's favorite sport
[1:05:34] How to connect with Jeff
Episode resources:
Jeff's podcast: The Mind Muscle Connection
Instagram: @ jeffhoehn_
FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Jeff Hoehn 00:00
As you get older, I think it's important to really get your execution and technique and everything dialed in. Because, you know, again, when you're younger you can get away with like, hey, if your forms off a little bit, it's no big deal like, you're going to be fine. Whereas as you get older, you have all that wear and tear of everything else that you did for years.
Philip Pape 00:18
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today we're gonna dive into two important topics, weight maintenance and recovery with my special guest, Jeff hain, who has tons of hands on tons of coaching experience with both nutrition and training and lots of other topics. Living it maintenance, managing fatigue, managing recovery, I think they're often overlooked. They're misunderstood by many people who want to improve their body composition. And I think Jeff's going to reveal why they're relevant. If you care about the long game, in terms of sustaining that hard won fat loss, and being able to train into your later years, among other things. And as always, on this show, we're going to share evidence based strategies that you can take action on starting today. Jeff has gone through his own personal transformation through several building and fat loss phases. He's completed in bodybuilding shows, he's tried just about every diet, every training method out there, he's dealt with injuries and rehab and through it all learned about the science and practice of human performance and nutrition. Jeff is the owner of Jay H health and fitness. He's also an online coach who helps clients get leaner stronger and more confident. He believes and I couldn't agree more that coaching is a collaborative process where clients should be empowered, empowered with knowledge empowered with skills. I invited Jeff on because I'm a huge fan of his podcast, the mind muscle connection, and I can relate to his self experimentation, his curiosity for learning. On his podcast, Jeff interviews, well known experts like Mike is retell Steve Hall and others, and he shares actionable tips in his solo episodes. Like the recent one, he did number 262 on the laws of maintenance, which are relevant to today's discussion, so make sure to follow the mind muscle connection. And Jeff, it's an honor to welcome you to the show.
Jeff Hoehn 02:27
So thank you, that was a great introduction. Like I told you off air Man, I'm really impressed by your the amount of work that you put in ahead of time. I'm, I'm a little ashamed of myself now after this, but no, I appreciate you having me on. And I'm glad that you wanted to talk about these specific topics, because I think they are super important. And probably something that's maybe a little bit on paper boring, but I think it's awesome integrate chat to have. So I'm looking forward to chatting.
Philip Pape 02:51
Yeah, cool. No, I mean, I can nerd out on this stuff forever. And people know me know I do. And I don't find any of this boring. And we're gonna make it exciting and interesting. And people understand why they need to know it. So now I appreciate and appreciate the compliment. And I do love your podcast, it's great. You've covered a lot of topics have a lot of guests. The solo episodes, some of your mysterious. teasers are like, here's a topic I find interesting. And then, you know, it's like, what is he talking about today? Because that's good. So let's, let's get to know you a bit. Let the audience get to know you, if they're not already familiar with your work. I guess I want to understand your motivation and envision for taking, you know, taking your your past history with personal fitness, what you've learned your experiences, and then sharing it with the world specifically through coaching and podcasting. Yeah.
Jeff Hoehn 03:37
So, you know, for me, I think I got into fitness to just, you know, look better, like, I wanted to have bigger muscles and everything like that. And, you know, that was, I think that's how most people get into it. Right? I'm sure I'm sure it's probably the same for you. But you know, along the journey, you find out that there's a lot more to it than just that. And so for me, that was that was something that again, I got into it for that, but but figuring out that, hey, you know, there's a lot more than just having bigger muscles or looking better, right. Like, that's important. But I feel like it taught me a lot of life lessons. And it just had a lot of carryover to other aspects of my life. And so for me, you know, I want to, I want to help people get to that point, right. Like, obviously, I want to help them look better, but I think that's that's part of it. But I also want to teach, you know, other people that you know, how it can carry over to other aspects of your life, and it's just basically fitness and nutrition is just something that I feel like, makes everything else you do better. Like if that's, you know, if you're taking care of that, like everything else you do is better. Right? And there's a lot of carryover to whether you own your own business, you know, you you know, you're an employee somewhere, relationships and you know, managing money. I feel like there's a lot of carryover. And so for me, I just feel like that's the one thing that if you can get that nailed down, I just feel like other aspects of your life get better. And so for me, that's, you know, why I want to do it. And I also feel like to, you know, along the way, I'm sure you feel this way as well. There was just a lot of things that I probably did at one time that weren't great and I could have spent a lot of time to time and hard work, and just you know what, and now obviously with like social media and you know, just the access of information, the ease of information that we can get, you know, we have all this access to all this information, you know, there's a lot of stuff that I feel like isn't great. And so I just want to, you know, help people get to that point to where they can they fitness and nutrition can be a part of their lifestyle, obviously, you know, push, like getting results, but also making sure that it's not this like all or nothing mindset, and like these, these crazy protocols that just, you know, they aren't going to work for most people, I think the big one, and I'm going to kind of go off on a tangent here, I think the big thing too, is, with social media, I feel like, it's so easy to get in this like comparison game too, with with social media. And so like, you know, the other thing I really want to like help people with is realizing that what you see on social media isn't necessarily like, you shouldn't compare yourself to that, you know, I'm sure. You know, as a coach yourself, like, you have these conversations all the time, where it's like, Hey, I know you want to, you know, look like this, but realize that that person is completely different than you are. And like, you know, it's the people that get shown in your feeds are probably the outliers to most things. And so like, you know, helping people with that, I think is super important, too. So, you know, that that's, like I said, kind of, we're off on a side tangent there. But those are the things that kind of came to my mind.
Philip Pape 06:18
What, yeah, totally. And I can relate to a lot of that I'm sure I'm sure the listener candidates, probably why they listen to your show, my show and others like it, podcasting gives us that medium to be able to dive into that next level, I mean, the amount of research you put into some of your shows, right, you can tell it shows that you're, you know, you care about bringing it down to the level where people understand why they understand what to do. And it's not just like, you know, 123, by my program, it's not, you know, this click Beatty thing, even though we have to use the social media regardless, the other thing you said is how it expands to other areas of your life. And it made me think about how, you know, when you ask the client, why do you what's your goal? And they say, I want to lose weight? Or what's your goal, I want to look good? Like, okay, why do you want that, right? And then they go to that next level. All right, I want to I want to feel better, okay, why, and you dig in and dig in. And that's kind of that, that deeper meaning for why we do this, and why you want to help. But you also mentioned how it impacts other areas of your life. And I think that applies to mastery of anything, right? Like, if you master become a Master of Marketing, become a master of public speaking, it tends to transcend that into other things. And that's, I mean, that's being a human right. It's being like a capable, awesome human in this world. So it would you say, like, your overall coaching, philosophy and values? How would you pin them down? Based on all of this discussion?
Jeff Hoehn 07:34
Yeah, so I guess my coaching values would be, you know, obviously, you know, client comes to you, they want to look better, right? Like, again, what that's, that's going to be what we're going to push for, right like that, that is super important. So making sure that, you know, we get the clients results like that, it's going to be at the forefront. But it also I think, you know, some other values I have there is, you know, obviously education is going to be super important. Like, I think that's important, because I always tell clients, this, if, you know, let's say, for example, they do want to look better, that's, you know, again, we're going to aim for that, but if we're learning better habits along the way, and we're learning like more about your body, or things like that, like those are going to be things that you can take with you moving forward. Whereas like, you know, like we could get, we could get anybody to lose 15 pounds, if we you know, if we make the protocol drastic enough, but it's like, is that going to be something that you're going to, you know, you're gonna learn anything there, you're gonna be able to take that with you moving forward. So, you know, I always tell clients, like, that's, that's one of the main things is just the education piece and learning about yourself, but also, you know, better strategies as well. So I think that's, I think that's important. What else is, what else would be super important in terms of, you know, obviously, everything I do, like, I think there is a sense of, like, we want to push the client, but at the same time, and we want to get them uncomfortable, but also making sure that what we're doing is something that, you know, they're not feeling like crap in the process, I think that's super important. You know, and, and making sure that, you know, they're feeling good in the process. And again, it's not something they hate, because, again, that's not going to be anything that they can, you know, do for for a long period of time. So I think that's important. You know, obviously, communication, communicating with the clients is super important, you know, why we're doing what we're doing, again, that goes back to the education piece, but communicating along the way, and you kind of hit on it too, like with the coaching process, it's not just a, Hey, this is what we're doing, go and do it, it's, you know, there, it's a collaboration too, right? Like, for sure to make sure that, you know, you have a piece of like, what's going on too, because again, that's going to be that's going to be something that's going to fit best for you but also, you know, if you are helping make those decisions, I feel like you're going to be more likely to to to actually do them rather than me being like, hey, go do that go do this. Right. Some clients want that. But again, I'm still I still think it's important to even if that's what they want, I still think it's important to push them a little bit towards that and I always I think I made a post on this the other day about like, again, we want to get a client uncomfortable and I think that looks different from each I am right. So for like one client, it could be, hey, we are going to is going to be more of a collaborative process where you're going to have more of an input here, and I'm not just gonna be like, Hey, go and do this. Now, again, there might be some of that, but we're still going to try to push you to be uncomfortable there. And, and for one client, it could be, you know, they do just need to, like, do something different. And they might need to listen a little, you know, they might need to do something a little bit more, and then also to like, and we'll probably talk about this, but like, for one client, it could be, hey, you need to stay consistent with your workouts, that's what you need. But for another client, it could be, hey, we need to back off a little bit. Right? So it looks different for everybody. But I would say those are kind of the big things there. Hopefully that answered your question. Yeah, for sure,
Philip Pape 10:35
man. So education, the education, the awareness, and you kind of touched on, I don't know, if he's you posted, or somebody else said, you know, you don't always have to be a nice guy, but always be kind. I don't know if that I don't know who said that. But kind of the idea of we push our clients and you mentioned being uncomfortable, that's kind of every day when you're trying to change is it's something different, right. And it may be a good, uncomfortable, or maybe a very uncomfortable version of that. So the so these are awesome, right? That's what I think people want to do. But people do have to understand, they can't just do the same thing over and over and see results. So I know we want to jump into the topic. And this is kind of relevant, because when we talk about weight maintenance, we're talking about sustaining your body weight, and there's a lot of different plate. There's a lot of places you come from to get to that state, right? We don't just say, Okay, I want to maintain weight, there's a reason for that. But it's almost a state of non change, right. And so some people have trouble wrapping their head around this idea, or that it's boring. And I get it from personal experience, man, because I'm just finishing a fat loss phase. And when I'm done, I don't want to maintain weight for too long. I want to go right into the building. So high level, what are your overall thoughts on weight maintenance and these concepts? Yeah, well,
Jeff Hoehn 11:45
so I think first, you know, the thing that's important to look at is people do hear maintenance, and they automatically think that it's like, okay, hey, no progress whatsoever. Right. And that's obviously not the case. You know, we'll continue to dive into this. But like, I think that's the first thing that people need to know is like, maintenance isn't necessarily you're just not making progress at all right? It's more so like, your body weight is at maintenance. And but there's a lot of things that can that can go on. So I think that's the first thing that needs to that, you know, I need to hit on first, before we dive into this is it's still progress. Right? Next, you know, I think any, again, people here maintenance, and they think they automatically just think it's not like making progress. But to me any nutrition strategy, or exercise strategy, or any protocols that we're going to do that gets you to maintain weight long term is a win, right? Because, you know, what do most people have problems with, it's seeing weight gain, you know, over time. And so I think a lot of times when people hear like certain protocols or something that doesn't, that's not weight loss, they automatically think it's not good, right. But it's like weight maintenance. Like, that's a big thing, especially in today's world. So, so you know, I think that's important. Those are kind of the two big things that, you know, I always tell people about when they when they hear maintenance. So as far as like, so those are kind of couple things there with that. I don't know if you want me to dive into like, maybe, yeah, go ahead. And
Philip Pape 13:02
yeah, no, no, I don't I have a million questions. I always do, we always go off on tangents. And I don't get half to half of them. It's okay. We're having a conversation. So, you know, the idea that it's still progress, you said a lot of other things going on. It's a long term success strategy in that at some point, you're going to lose weight, potentially, I want to keep it off, or gain weight or want to keep it whatever, something like 95% of people gain all the way back. Right. And Brandon was telling me the other day, some other sobering statistics about that. But there's challenges and difficulties here, because of the fact that you're trying to stay steady. It's almost it's almost more difficult in some ways than going up or down. Right. So what are those challenges people face?
Jeff Hoehn 13:38
Yeah, well, like you said, again, it's it's the fact that oh, hey, maintenance is not progress, right? You know, what I commonly see, I think this will will be helpful is like, what you commonly see in the fitness industry is, you know, people, they, they get into, they want to do fat loss. So then they, you know, they want to lose weight, so they restrict calories, do a bunch of cardio, and they see this weight turned down super quick. And it ends up being these, you know, we talked about sustainability earlier. And I think that's super important. And when people do it that way, you know, they lose, they lose weight quickly, but then they're miserable in the process, probably lost some lean body mass in the process as well, so muscle, they lose that and then you know, what happens? You know, you just you start eating like you did before and the weight comes back on quickly. The problem with that is, you know, now you have less less muscle weights gonna come back on quicker so then you gain weight. So then like over time, what you see happen here is you see these people, they you know, they trend down, and then weight comes back up, it might stay the same, it might go a little bit higher, but the problem there is you're going to have more more fat mass in that process. Because anytime you lose weight and you lose muscle in the process, your body is going to gain most of that weight and if you do it quickly, your body is going to get most of that weight back via fat right. So so this is what ends up happening and then and then people then what happens then, you know a couple weeks months go by I hate Let's do that again, right, and it just ends up being this yo yo with with over time, you know, a little bit more fat mass and we're less muscle. So I like to, I like to have what I call a maintenance phase, you'd call reverse diet phase, whatever it may be where after that, after that fat loss diet, we're going to bring you back to, we're gonna find a way to eat that's going to, you know, maintain your weight, maybe it comes up a little bit, but we're just going to avoid that, like super increase that increase in food and the big spike after after, after you lose weight, lose body fat, whatever it may be, the biggest challenges that I see people have with this is. So anytime you lose, lose body fat, and or you're in a calorie deficit, like for a long period of time, you're gonna see some, you're gonna see hunger come up a little bit, you know, you might have a little less energy. And so when that happens, your body wants to get back to where it was before. And so, in that, that's why you see an increase in hunger, like energy levels are lower, things like that. And so if you just go straight back to eating like you did before, again, you're gonna see things come back up. So I think the the first main challenge is like hunger super high after that period of time, right? And if, and if you just listen to your body, and you don't do anything, that's that's why you you see that that comes, like, why it's so hard to maintain your weight after afterwards, right? Because again, your body wants to get back to where it was before. So I think that's, that's the first challenge is like, hunger super high. And so it can be really hard to moderate your food intake. But then on top of it, a lot of times people restrict themselves for a long period of time. And then you know, what happened? Do you want to start to eat tasty food again, so people go straight back into eating tasty food, and you're already hungry. And these types of foods are already really tough to moderate, because they're just designed to get you to overeat and continue to eating and keep wanting more. But then you combine it with the fact that, hey, you're already hungrier. So you just want more and more, right, so it becomes really challenging to me, you know, to moderate your food intake. It's almost it's basically like a cheat code to eat more calories, right? These these types of foods that are easily available tasty foods.
Philip Pape 17:05
And hold on, what are we talking? And were you talking about the scenario for anybody who's lost weight? Whether you are training eating protein, and all the things or not? Are we talking to a specific scenario here?
Jeff Hoehn 17:14
Yeah, I mean, both people even, you know, people that are on the way down, that don't lift weights or their proteins low, you know, they are going to, they're going to be at up probably a little, they're going to see this happen. Like, they're going to be the higher risk of all this stuff, right. But even if you do lose body weight, lose body fat, and your your, you know, lifting weights, eating enough protein, you're still going to this is still going to happen to you, right? It's just probably not going to be as bad in that in that scenario. But yeah, both people they're going to see this this happen. So but yeah, those are, those are some challenges. Another challenge too. And, you know, some mistakes that people will make, in this period of time afterwards is, you know, again, it's like, people go all in during the fat loss phase. And then, you know, then Monday comes around, it's like, oh, maintenance, I'm not fat loss diet, and I'm just gonna go back to doing whatever I was doing before, right, and whether that's like not tracking anything. So again, tracking can be like your body weight, it can be like your biofeedback, you know, maybe you're not moving as much like, it's like, Oh, hey, I don't have to lose body fat anymore. So now I'm just not going to move as much. And all these things add up, right? And then you combine it with what I talked about with your hunger increasing. And then to like, people will stop like weighing in because like, Oh, hey, you know, I have that goal of like, seeing weight come down to now I'm not gonna weigh in anymore. And I'm not sure you know, what, like, some people have, you know, some people like to have people weigh in regularly. Some people don't, it's just I think depends on the client and what their relationship is with the scale. But that goes back to the education piece, I really tried to teach clients how to understand what's going on with scale weight, because I think that's super important. So I think if you have a good you know, if you have a coach with you that can help you with this, like, it's good to continue to track your body.
Philip Pape 18:47
While we're on the same page there. I don't know, if you listen to my stuff. I'm always talking about tracking and even even even the value of daily weight tracking, as an antidote for that emotional tie in with the scale, it actually seems to help, because now you've got the data. So totally agree there. Yeah.
Jeff Hoehn 19:02
Well, and you know, people, they stopped tracking that, right. So then it's like, it can be a way to just kind of help you moderate your food. Like, again, if you see your weight go up a little bit like well, okay, I probably need to back off a little bit. Right. But if you're not focused on that, it's like you don't have anything to kind of get you to pump the brakes a little bit. Right. So it was an incentive. Yeah. Yeah. I think the big thing is to go back to all this into title. And I think that the missing piece for a lot of people here is this kind of planned approach to fat loss, right? Like, yes, the fat loss diet is important. But what do you do after that is super important as well, too, because if you're missing out on that part, afterwards, I feel like you're going to end up having to do the same thing over and over and over again. So you know, I think having something set up after that, that period of time is super important. Like for example, I just had a client, he had to go through a pretty hard weight cut for an MMA fight. So what like what we had to do for him would be a little bit different than a lifestyle client, but you know, he put him he put his body through the wringer to get down to get this weight down. And you know, afterwards, you know, one of his main things he wants to work on with me was he had to do this multiple times. And after each fight, he wouldn't you know, he would just go back to his normal life, you would be super hungry. And so he would just kind of go on these beatings breeze, yeah, Ben just basically where he would just eat anything, everything drink, and, you know, then he would get up to a weight that, you know, when he was trying to fight again, he'd have to lose much weight. And it's just this, it's this process that would go over and over again. And so like for him, you know, some of his challenges have been, you know, he's, he's super hungry. And so we're talking about, hey, like, you know, we just have to increase the amount of food that you're that you were eating, you know, like, for example, don't just go straight from like, eating all these quote unquote, diet foods to then all sudden, going back to, you know, pizza all the time. And like tasty foods, like we got to still eat for the most part, the same foods just in large quantities, right? Yeah.
Philip Pape 20:46
Yeah. So what I'm hearing from some of this, right, and people need to understand is that the the fat loss phase itself as you're going through it, and as you're getting toward maintenance, that's when we start doing the prep work for maintenance, right? Like, there's ways to do that. And I also pull from this that at least for a lifestyle client, like a Gen pop, you know, I don't want to claim to just cut everything out that they enjoy during a fat loss phase, we want to try to build them in, we're not talking about, you know, the 24 hour cuts and the MMA fighters necessarily here who have to, or bodybuilders who have to get more dialed in. But it's like, if you're at least allowing for some of that, and then accommodating it, you have those skills, right, as you come out of it. So So what are the things someone would do, let's say 12, or 16 week fat loss phase, you're maybe halfway through and thinking ahead toward maintenance? What's what's the best way to prepare for that?
Jeff Hoehn 21:31
Yeah, well, I think part of it is just realize that yes, the fat loss portion of it's over, but you're still going to need to put in the work afterwards, right? I think I think mentally preparing yourself for that can be helpful. But you know, just realize that you are going to get a little bit more flexibility with food, right, you get a little bit more quantity. So that will be helpful there. Some other things too, you know, make sure that you have a game plan for you know, weight training, movement, right, I think that's another big thing. To make sure you have some goals set up there with that, again, we want to make sure we wait train, because the big thing too is, you know, we talked about weight training a little bit ago, but I've made this post before, I think if you do see a little bit of weight gain, you know, what you do in that process is important too, right? Like, if you're not weight training, and you're gaining weights, like, okay, that's going to be different than gaining weight and weight training, right. So, you know, making sure you have that setup. Movement, again, make sure you're still you know, what, no matter like, however you track your cardio or steps, or whatever it is, you know, make sure you start a game plan there with that. But from a nutrition standpoint, you know, what I tell clients is, like I said, just, we're still going to eat relatively the same amount of the same foods, just we're going to increase the quantities, but you know, I guess you could, if you have a, like, I always tell clients, I like to have them like have like a set amount of meals per day, because I think that really allows for some structure. So I think making sure you still have that in place, you know, making sure you're still you know, doing your prep work, whether that's going to the grocery store, prepping, you know, making sure you're still doing those things, I think can be really helpful there. You know, to help you prepare for for that time.
Philip Pape 23:04
Cool. Yeah. What about um, you know, you talked about getting back to a certain way, we talked about either reverse dieting or recovery diet and whatever term you want to use? Should should people be concerned about setpoint? Theory? Is that a thing? I know, the evidence is mixed about it, the idea that we all have a weight range where we stabilize. And so when we think of maintenance, is there or is there an artificial weight that we're trying to maintain it that's counterproductive versus this setpoint? Weight?
Jeff Hoehn 23:28
Yeah, I definitely think there is some truth to that. So I think they so what they call now and like what the model that they think is like the most effective is called like the dual point intervention model, right. So it's like, we have these, like, we have this like high end, where like, you know, once you get to a certain body fat level, on the high end, it's like, things start to kick in, where it's like, hey, we'll we'll chill out, like, you know, your body's going to try to expend more energy, like basically the opposite of when you're trying to lose weight. But then when you get to a body fat level, on the other end, it's like, then this is where you really see hunger start to kick up, like, you know, you may see your libido go down the drain, you know, sleep might start to suffer energy levels, right. And anything in between, there's where your body's like comfortable, right? So like, in that range. For people. I don't know if people can see me, obviously, on a podcast, but like that range could differ from person to person, right? Like for one person that that top end could be super high. So it's like their bodies just kind of want to keep gaining weight. For some people, that bottom point could be really low. So they can just keep losing losing weight. But for some people, it's like, it's really small, right? Their body just really wants to stay where it's at. So I definitely think there's some, like we do need to take that in consideration. But at the end of the day, you know, what your habits are, I feel like are going to really determine where you fall at on that on that scale, in that range. Right. And one other thing too, that I feel like it's important here with this is in Why think maintenance is important. And again, when we say maintenance, like I think maintenance it maintenance can be like a phase where you're just not trying to push body weight up or down. It can be a phase where maybe you're just trying to take some stress off the body. But it can also just be like your calories. You're about to write, I think something like I think that needs to be like, you know, people need to, like, I guess I just need to explain that at a time. Like a, it just really depends on like, what are you trying to do with it? So there's different ways. But
Philip Pape 25:10
what I'm saying, Are you saying the term maintenance as in referring to your expenditure, your your true maintenance versus maintaining your weight? Is that is that distinction making?
Jeff Hoehn 25:19
Yeah, basically, like, I think there's a difference in terms of like, okay, it's a maintenance phase, like a maintenance phase can be a phase where we're just trying to take some stress off, right, we're not trying to push body weight up, we're not trying to push performance, we're not trying to push body weight down, we're just, you know, just trying to find a good range to stay at basically homeostasis for your body right now kind of get to that in a minute why that's important. But also, there's maintenance calories, right? And I think, again, there's a difference there, because maintenance calories is just your energy balance, right? And, yes, you're not going to lose body fat, if your calories are maintenance, but you could still, depending on where you're at, in your training or training journey, you could still build some muscle at maintenance. Right? So So I think there's a difference there in terms like, just because you're at maintenance calories, doesn't mean you're at like maintenance, like a maintenance phase, if that makes sense.
Philip Pape 26:01
Yeah, totally. Totally. Go ahead. Yeah, no, no, you're not you have a thought? Well,
Jeff Hoehn 26:07
what I was gonna say is, the reason why we want to do this is because it kind of tie in the dual intervention model that I was just talking about, like where your body is comfortable, is, you know, putting your body weight up or down is a stressor on the body, right? Like, if you put your body weight up for too long, your body is going to start to have some adaptations to that, right. And this is where you see a lot of like, the general population is that where like, they're just in this chronic energy surplus, right, where their weight is going up and up. And this is where you start to see, you know, that patients to that end up being like, type two diabetes, like insulin resistance, things like that, right. And so that's the adaptation there for that. Whereas the adaptation on the way down is, would be called more like metabolic adaptation, right? Where it's like, when you continue to push your body weight down, your body is going to have these adaptations in place to just be like, Hey, we got to chill out here, we can't just keep losing more and more weight. The best way I can explain this is, think back to how we evolved for like, most of our time on Earth, right, we didn't have this abundance of food. That was, you know, you had to expend a ton of energy to go and get food, right? You know, for pretty much all our existence where it's like in the last like 3050 years, now, you can literally, you don't have to expend any energy other than pressing numbers on your phone, and you can get 5000 calories, right? So there's this kind of like mismatch now, where our bodies are just the, it's just a lot different now. And again, so like, back in the day, when we didn't have all this abundance of energy around our bodies are really good at being like, Okay, if we don't have a lot of food around, we need to expend energy to go and get food, we your body's really good at being like, hey, let's you know, down regulate things. So it's really good at adapting up or down. And so, again, those those are stressors on the body, and there's adaptations that happen, I mean, again, even if you're low, let's say you're on the way down, you know, like, for example, things like thyroid could slow down, like, that's something that there, that's an adaptation for men, you know, depending on where you're at body fat level wise, testosterone could go down, either on the way down, or on the way up. So these are all adaptations that are in place. And so that's all stressors on the body, right, like, either way up or down. And so why we go to maintenance is to take that stress off of the body, right and like, just let it be comfortable, because that's going to be you know, where your body feels the best and where it's going to be able to, you know, just perform, you know, make sure you get, you know, perform your best again, where it's at its most comfortable.
Philip Pape 28:29
Ya know, these are, these are really important, and people have to understand there's a cascade of things that happens, right, you mentioned thyroid, there's extra die off for women, there's, you know, leptin and ghrelin, which cause hunger, and then if you exacerbate that with lack of sleep, and sometimes people move less when they're in a fat loss phase, you sometimes really need that break. Sometimes it's just for psychological reasons, but there are because you're gonna get back into the adaptation as soon as you start dieting again. But if you don't have that break, you you might break like mentally break and be like, I'm done and then start, you know, sabotaging your progress.
Jeff Hoehn 29:01
Well, that's that's where you see most people fall anyways, right? Whether they do it or not, like whether they take a maintenance phase or not, they end up doing that. Anyways. Right? So yeah, like you said, it's really that like that, that maintenance phase is going to be there to help take stress off of the body because again, it's you know, people don't realize but you know, you're at where you're at, because of like, the, what you've done to it. And again, your body's really good at adapting to things and so really, if you're having any of these symptoms or anything like that, it's just from what you've been doing. Right. So
Philip Pape 29:32
and when you do this, so you know, there's a little bit of, quote unquote controversy about reverse dieting ever since the treks article came out the idea that if you know what your current means is you just jumped to that and recover there's no need to stretch it out. But we still use the term reverse dieting kind of to mean the same thing for for some people. Is that what you do you just kind of increase carbs bring them back to their current maintenance when this happens? If this was
Jeff Hoehn 29:53
like a bodybuilder or somebody like that, we would have like more of like a recovery diet, right? Where it's like, yes, that person if they're like, super low body fat again, you're gonna see those adaptations happen like hormones are going to decrease like for them, you would want to get them back to maintenance like as soon as possible. For more lifestyle client who, you know, maybe they're not you know, for women maybe they're not so 20% body fat for men maybe they're not like sub eight 10%. You know, maybe they're a little bit higher than that, but they're leaner than what they've been they've been dieting for a while. For that person, I'll do more of like a reverse back to maintenance right in the reason being is they're not as in bad of a shape as like somebody that's like, super, super lean, right. So they have a little bit of wiggle room there to where we can slowly bring their calories back up and in find where there like maintenance is that now and that can be a good way to just not like because I feel like if you go from dieting straight to your maintenance, you know, you could see some weight gain come a little bit quicker. And for some people, they don't want to see that. So I like to use reverse dieting to for more lifestyle clients and slowly get them back to their maintenance and just make sure that we don't overshoot anything on the
Philip Pape 30:56
way. Yeah, and it's practical to write there's a sustainability aspect of just not jumping so many calories. Just from a practical standpoint. Yeah,
Jeff Hoehn 31:04
no, absolutely. And I think too, if you're somebody that is in this situation, and you're you're super worried about gaining regaining weight, and reverse dieting, like realize you're already like most of the way there, like you already have a good plan in place. And so it's like your, the chances of you going overboard are are very low. Whereas, you know, you take somebody on the other end of the spectrum, they just are like, Oh, I cannot wait to just go back to what I was doing before. It's like, okay, you know, this is it's a little bit different there, right. So like, the fact that you know, you need a game plan, and you're going to do that I think is important. I think the downside with like a reverse diet is, and this is kind of what Eric Trexler talked about in his articles, like, it's a way to like kind of prolong the calorie deficit in a way. And so you just have to be careful with that, that you're not like sitting at these body weights or deficits that are you're not sitting in these body, the body fat levels that are going to cause some of those issues that we talked about from like hormonal, you know, biofeedback standpoint. And also making sure that you're not in a deficit for a long period of time, because again, like we talked about, your body's gonna adapt to that, even if it is a small deficit, it is going to continue to adapt to that. So you just have to make sure that you're not doing it to like, maintain some physique that isn't like doable for you. Right, you know, Hi, my
32:12
name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach, Philip pape, with his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity, I want to be healthy, active and independent. Until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called macro factor, I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide, and that really helped me so thank you. The
Philip Pape 32:55
last question about maintenance is what should people be tracking? Right? Do we know calories? Macros? Wait couple things there? What are some other key metrics people should track?
Jeff Hoehn 33:04
Yeah, no, that's a good question. Um, so what I like to have clients track is this one, I think is the most important I, I kind of told you earlier that like how client feels in the process, I think is super important. So what I like to have clients track is I call it like, biofeedback. You know, people call many different things with biofeedback is going to be things like, you know, how's your sleep? How your energy levels, how are your hunger levels, you could, you could throw libido in there, you could throw digestion in there. And so like tracking those things, I think are super important. Because, again, if if those are in a good spot like that, to me, that's the most important you know, whereas like if a client is saying that they're like, super hungry, or like libido is gone, like they don't have any libido, maybe for female client, their menstrual cycle, like, If those things aren't there, some something's mid, like, we got to dive deeper, we got to figure out something that's going on there. Right. So like, I think that's the most important thing, because in these maintenance phases, reverse diet phases, we want to see biofeedback improve, right? That's, that's the main goal, right? So you want to make sure that that's, that's in a good spot there. So biofeedback, for sure, you know, making sure you're in a good spot. Because like, if a client, for example, is if we're in a reverse diet phase, and we're not seeing these things improve, and they're like, Oh, I'm really scared of weight gain. But you continue to, like, have that kind of small deficit, because you like, like, you know, you're worried about bringing them up a little bit higher. It's like, you have to have that honest conversation with them about being like, hey, we probably just need bring your calories a little bit
Philip Pape 34:28
is showing. Yeah, that's why you feel that way.
Jeff Hoehn 34:31
Yep. So So biofeedback, I think is super important. You know, continue to track your training, I think that can be a big thing to like, making sure you're tracking that because like, you know, if you come out of a deficit into maintenance, you're probably going to see a little bit of an uptick in your training. So, um, you know, I think that's important to track that. Make sure that's trending up and whatnot. I think activity levels. I like to have clients track it through steps, just because that's a good indicator of like, overall activity levels. So tracking that you Have some sort of food monitoring again, it doesn't necessarily have to be calories and macros, if you did that for your fat loss phase, I would still push you to do that in your maintenance phase afterwards, just for a period of time, you don't have to do it forever, I think people get this mindset towards tracking that's like, if they do it once, they either have to do it forever, or they never have to do it again, I think there's just like, they're just like, I like that phases with nutrition, I think there needs to be faced with a tool, it's a learning tool, an education tool. Yeah. And so having some periods of time where you do it, you don't do it, I think it's great, but doing it for that period of time afterwards. And if you can, you know, really, really try to minimize the amount of like, tasty food you have in that post diet period, because it's just gonna be really hard to moderate and you're just gonna want more so, you know, again, tracking some sort of food intake, and then making sure that you limit tasty foods as best as you can. I know, again, that's way easier said than done. But I think the big thing is don't like have, you know, if this was your entire calories that you had, and like you had this much be your, like nutrient dense type foods don't just like all sudden, like, flip it, where it's like, now you're eating only like 20%, nutrient dense foods and 80%, you know, still try to stick to like 80 90% rule there with that. And then lastly, you know, body weight, I think it's super important to continue to track your body weight in this period of time afterwards, just so again, things aren't getting out of hand. Now, again, having a good coach like yourself to kind of coach people and educate them on like, what's going on, like, hey, you know, if you're in a fat loss phase, you're super depleted, you know, you're don't have a lot of food in your system, and all sudden, you know, we bring up the calories 234 100, you're gonna see your body weight come up a little bit, right, like, there's just one fluid from the carbs. Yep, yeah, glycogen stores. Yeah, and just more food in your belly at one time. So I think also, I guess this goes back to our original topic here of like, maintenance, it's like, maintenance also isn't just like this one, number one number, right? It's a range, right? So maintenance calories are gonna be arranged your maintenance, weight is going to be a range. And so again, just realizing that I think can be super helpful.
Philip Pape 36:59
For sure, yeah, I use plus or minus three for most people, three pounds, because it's kind of that good range where, because if you if you did it too tight, and I was like, What's going on, I'm gaining weight help, you know, it's some flexibility. Well, and
Jeff Hoehn 37:11
to one other thing on this, it just came to my head about the weight thing that there's been times where I've had a client in a fat loss phase, and we go back to you know, it's a reverse diet, we're going to slowly bring their calories back up, I've seen it many times where some clients, they still continue to see their weight trend down a little bit, right. And some of that has to do with we talked about stress, and it's like your body's, you know, in a fat loss phase, again, like that's a stressor on the body. And it's you're probably you know, you could potentially be holding on to some some water weight because of the stress, right. So sometimes you bring these clients calories up a little bit, and they start to see their weight trend down a little bit. That's also has to do with like, knee like if that, you know, if you bring your calories back up your body's like more, it's going to expend more energy, because you're bringing in more food, things like that. But I've also seen clients where their weight stay the same. And then there's also clients that have seen their weight come up a little bit, right. So you don't know until you actually do it. But just realize that you could increase calories, your weight come down a little bit, it could stay the same, or it could come up a little bit in that process.
Philip Pape 38:08
Yeah, and there's one other piece about maintenance. I'm kind of surprised I didn't bring it up. But the idea that especially when you're getting started, right, being in a maintenance phase, potentially, when you start lifting, when you start putting together all these habits, at least that's something I like to do with clients, I know it's a pretty common approach with good coaches, where you start to see all these magical things happen without the scale changing. And you have to have those conversations of, you know, moving away from focusing on the scale, wait for an hour, at least until they're then mentally ready and physically ready for that fat loss phase.
Jeff Hoehn 38:36
Yep, no. percent. And I feel like too, I've seen clients where, if they've been that person that's always tried to restrict their calories or be super lean. And that's like all they've ever done. It's like you put them at maintenance. And it's like, you know, they're there. When you sit right? Yeah, everything, like, everything gets better, they feel better. Training gets better. So that's gonna help with muscle growth. You know, so yeah, a lot of, you know, depending on where the person is, at, like, there's a lot of good things that happen if you if you've spent a lot of time just always trying to restrict restrict, and you get to maintenance, like a lot of good things can happen on at that point, you know, I think the big one too is like, for women is the menstrual cycle, right? Like they don't realize that like that's a big thing, if that's off and you know, that's not regular, there's something going on that you know, needs to be worked on. And that's typically comes from like stress, right, like some sort of structure and, and the thing was stressed is a lot of people don't realize that stress is like, it's not just your mental stress of like, oh, work was tough. I got in a fight with my, my spouse, you know, stress is also like, you know, too high levels of body fat as stress, you know, too low body fat levels of stress on the body. You know, eating patterns, like if you eat late at night before bed like that could you know kind of cause some stress in terms of, you know, your circadian rhythm like poor sleep is stress, right? So there's like all these other factors of stress there that play a role. So
Philip Pape 39:52
yeah, and then you see HPA Axis issues, sometimes as a result, and a lot of those get resolved right. When you get out that situation. I mean, I've had clients who, you know, their mode of training is definitely not heavy lifting. It's a lot of cardio, right? Yep. And as soon as you remove that stress, and you say, Hey, we're going to lift really heavy weights for three days a well, it's not going to be more stressful, it actually it actually removes a systemic stress. And then all of a sudden, all the adrenal issues and cortisol issues you might have had go away when you're now eating 20 700% or 2200 calories. And by the way, your weights not changing, is it? It is really, really like magic to some people. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. All right. So let's talk about recovery. That's the other topic which kind of overlaps us in some way. Most people I guess, would think of recovery as as restoring your energy, your your, maybe your glycogen between workouts, maybe not being sore, getting sleep, preventing injury, all those things. How do you define recovery, which I suspect is also one of your biofeedback measures? Possibly, um, how do you how you define it? Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Hoehn 40:53
So you know, to I guess the scientific term of recovery is like, basically, you're back at the point to where you can, you know, in your training session, you can like, progress again, essentially, right? Like, you're back to like, baseline performance levels. That's like, the scientific term for me, you know, I do, I do monitor like a client's biofeedback or recovery, and what I tell them, Okay, so like, it's going to be on a scale of one to five, like, one for like, a low, like, for poor. One would be poor recovery ability. And like, what that's going to look like would be like, you're just like, super low energy, you're just like, kind of best way I could say is you're just kind of Dragon Right? Like you're dragging, you're just low energy. You know, maybe you're like super sore, sore, achy. Motivation just is like kind of down the drain, you're just not feeling great, you know, training, your training session sucks, like, you're just not feeling good in your training session. You're super hungry, you just feel depleted, right? Like that, to me is that's poor recovery ability, right? Good. recovery ability is going to obviously be the opposite of that, right? Like you have high energy, you're feeling great throughout the day, you know, hunger depending on what phase you're in. Hunger is not like super high or something like that. Right? Like you feel sustained energy, you're feeling strong, and your training sessions, you're feeling super motivated to train to do your hit your goals. You know, you could also throw like libido in there, too, right? Like, I've hit on that a couple times. You know, if that's kind of in the in the gutter, like that's poor recovery ability, that's, that's a sign of some sort of stress going on, you're under recovering somewhere. So again, on the opposite end, you know, your, your, your libido is good, right? Like, that's those are all, like good signs there of nuts how I would that's how I typically tell clients like what that what that looks like.
Philip Pape 42:27
Yeah, and there's Wouldn't you say? So there's a subjective and an objective kind of element to this. And where I'm going with that is personal experience, and clients who have have said, Hey, I felt I felt sluggish going to the gym, I felt weak. You know, I felt like I was just no way I was gonna get this. And all of a sudden they get a PR, right. Like, well, where would you place that in this spectrum?
Jeff Hoehn 42:50
Yeah, no, that's that's a good point. Right? I mean, I think at that point, like, if, like, I know, you said, it is very subjective, right. So I think getting this data is important, right? And like in tracking it, but as a coach, and like, even even if you're just doing this for yourself, you don't have a coach, you're just doing this for yourself, you do need to like, check into it a little bit as well, too, right? Like, ask yourself, ask yourself a little bit more about it. Because like you said, you could be something where it's like, you do feel that way. But then you go in, like you said, you hit a PR So yes, there, I do think that that that can happen. So honestly, that would to me fall under the recovery aspect to where like, you go and train and it's like, you actually end up hitting a PR, right? Like, okay, then maybe the recovery is not as bad as it could have been like, to me, that tells me that you're it's not as bad as it was right. So like, that would be a sign of like better recovery than you think if you're going in, in the PR. I think too, sometimes. You know, people have certain metrics, whether that be like HRV, or they have like a wolf or something like that. And no, like, it will like tell them they're not recovering. So then like mentally, like this is a case of placebo effect. Yeah. And so I think you need to be careful with that. For sure. And then even like to you know, we talked about sleep, and it's like, oh, I got a poor night's sleep. So you go into that training session, like all this is going to be terrible. So like, you do have to check yourself on this a little bit. And like, don't put too much stock into one single thing, you know, so that's what I would tell clients on it. Now again, like you said, it's subjective, so there's definitely going to be a potential like error with it. But I think it's more so when you're like, Oh, we're like noticing trends of like, a client's consistently putting like, one two or three and then you know, their training performance is actually showing that as well to that where it's like, hey, we need to we definitely need to take more than one single day of this like it's going to take some time to really figure it out. Yeah, but I think what it does is it just it allows you to like look into things a little bit more and like just kind of double check Hey, could this potentially be off like okay, maybe it is my sleep you know, am I doing something sleep wise that's off? Am I maybe training a little bit too much am I pushing you know what I mean? Things like that. Oh, totally
Philip Pape 44:48
agree. Then you can correlate it with other factors like you did stall on your lift or something, you know, you know, I asked this because a lot a lot of a lot of people especially you get older you deal with all sorts of aches and pains you deal with, especially low back fatigue. Very common or low back pain. I personally have had days where I felt low back soreness, but then I know the type of soreness is fine and I can go do my workouts gonna feel better other days like, no, if I push this something's gonna pop. Right. And he just, you kind of get to know your body over time. You found that personally with you?
Jeff Hoehn 45:17
Yeah, no, 100% I think you've definitely there's, it's definitely gonna take you some time to figure out like, you know, okay, is this a pain that I'm gonna push through? Or is this a pain that like, hey, I really need to take it take it easy, right? Um, so ya know, I think learning your body. I think in the beginning, if you are feeling that, like if you're, you know, within like a year or so of training, and this is happening, I do think you probably want to dial back your your intensity a little bit, right, like, just just because you don't know yet, like you said, but I do think in that situation, if you do have any sort of like, let's say recovery, you rate it as low. Yeah, maybe some aches and pains. I think we need to be careful with like, not that meaning like, Oh, hey, I'm just going to lay around all day reacting. Yeah. Because, because I think that that's going to make that will probably make things worse. Whereas like in that situation, maybe you just go in and like you have a little bit of low back pain. And in your mind, you're like, oh, no, if I don't go balls to the wall, in this session, I'm gonna lose all my progress. But I think as you get more experience, you realize that it's all about like, finding things that are going to keep you going for long periods of time. So maybe that day, it is just like, dialing it back a little bit. And it's more of just a lighter trading session. Just showing up and getting in is, that's what you need to do that day. And, you know, that could be the thing that you get some blood flow to the area, it starts to feel better. Or maybe for you, it's like, hey, for me today, I'm just gonna go and get some steps in or something like that, right? Because I think with the steps, that's one of those tricky ones that I always have this conversation with clients, where they're like, Oh, I was super tired today. So I just didn't do any steps. And you know, then it's like, Well, I think part of your issue is you just you didn't get that activity, right. I'm sure you've had those days where you
Philip Pape 46:53
stiffened up affects the joints, flex recovery. Yeah, it stiffened
Jeff Hoehn 46:56
up. And then and then just laying around, I just feel like you just get this sense of like, you're just getting more tired doing it right. And so I think in that situation, maybe it is just going for a walk, right. And so I think what I'm trying to say is like, you still need to do something, but in terms of the intensity that you're going, maybe that's not the day that you go and try to hit that gray bar on deadlift or something like that, you just dial it back and still get something in because I think that's, that's important.
Philip Pape 47:21
Yeah, and you touched on intensity. And so what I want to look at the variables here, the training variables, right, you've got volume got intensity, frequency exercise selection, you know, I'm not a personal trainer, per se, but I help I help my clients a lot with that, and give them form checks. And one of the things I like to do is, is kind of invert the volume, math, you know, if, if the sets of five are just going to be too stressful, if you feel like that's just impossible, maybe we turn into you know, three sets of five become five sets of three or something. So you can change the intensity one way or the other. So how do we manipulate these variables, and also, there's confusion around this with recovery, like I've heard, hey, I'm not going to work out five or six days a week, because I'm in a fat loss phase. But there's kind of a premise there that more days means more stress, when that's not always true, right? Because sometimes shorter sessions on more days can reduce systemic stress. So how do we make sense of it? All?
Jeff Hoehn 48:10
Yeah, um, so I think I think with that, like, like you said, they're, they're all kind of related to each other. Right? It's like, I guess the best way to describe it would be like, anybody that's ever like, made a that's played a video game where you like, create your employer, it's like, you, you basically, you can't have the everything be at the max, right? Like, if you want to be like the strongest, yeah, yeah, you're gonna, you're well, then you can't be like the the fastest either, right, like, you're gonna end up, you're gonna have to take a hit on those other kind of traits or attribute attributes, whatever you want to call them. Um, and so it's kind of the same thing, right? It's like the, I think, the more often you train. So frequency, you know, if you train six days a week, you know, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to manage it to where maybe volumes a little bit lower per session, right? Or maybe intensities a little bit lower per session, or not, every time you train, you're going to like have these exercises that are going to be like, super fatiguing, right. So like, taking like a Romania Romanian deadlift, you know, that's going to be pretty fatiguing on the body. So you, maybe you're not gonna be able to do that every training session, right? You're gonna have to maybe do like Lake curl one day or something like that something that, again, people are like, Oh, that's a machine isolated exercise, you know, do we want to do that or not? Like, well, it just depends on on that, right. So, again, intensity, probably will have to go down a little bit, you're not gonna be able to train to failure, every single set for every exercise, whereas, you know, say you have somebody that train three days a week, it's like, Okay, now we can probably push failure a little bit. Like you can go a little bit closer to failure, because you're just not training as much overall, the volume per session could probably be a little bit higher. Now, again, there's still you know, there comes a point where you can't just keep doing more and more volume. So there's going to be, there's going to be a point to where, like, if you can only train three days, there's going to be some limitations there. But again, you can maybe pick exercises that are a little bit more fatiguing, and you can do Do those each session. Um, so there's all these things, you know, play a role, and they're all tools. Really there. Right? So that's kind of the best way that I guess I could describe that. I don't know if that answered all your questions on it. But if you, ya
Philip Pape 50:12
know, people are just wondering, like, what, which of these have the biggest impact? Is it? Is it the volume, like in the tonnage really, because, you know, maybe maybe intensively load on the bar isn't what stressful? Except it could be if you're doing a lot of deadlifts. And you can't do that three times a week? So you know, or does it depend? I mean, the answer is always It depends. Right?
Jeff Hoehn 50:30
I do think I think overall volume is the is the number one thing though, right? Like, that's going to be the most important thing there in terms of like, what's what's going to be most fatiguing? Because I think no matter what, once you get, like, like I just said, with that, that three day a week, it's like, yeah, you can do more volume for workout. But at some point, there is going to be that, that that point where it's like, Okay, now, it's just too much volume, that it's going to be junk volume, you're not going to get you're going to be doing more for like, way less return on it. So I do think at the end, the day volume is going to be the number one thing, they're what's going to like same thing for like a, you know, if you somebody that runs, they like to do a lot of running, it's like, the biggest thing there is the amount of volume that they that they have to do, right. But all these other things are just tools that we can kind of manipulate that. But intensity is going to be a big one too, I think you know, but with intensity, it's like, the less you train, the more intense you can can go can go so
Philip Pape 51:24
so then, what's the difference between, you know, with age, right, because I know, I can't train like I could when I was 22. And I wish I actually did train like I'm trying to train now, when I was 22. But I did. Alright, so age, you know, we get into our 40s and up and also between men and women. Yeah,
Jeff Hoehn 51:39
so as far as the age thing goes, you know, it's definitely I think, as you get older, like your, the volume you can do is definitely gonna go down. Right? There's, there's no doubt about that. But I also think that has a lot to do with I think it has genetics are going to play a role in just aging in general. But I still think that that has more to do with lifestyle than then what people want to attribute it to, right. I mean, just think about it, when you're 20, it was like, yes, you could get away with less sleep, but you're still probably sleeping more than you do. Now, you had way more free time to do whatever you want it. And again, that's going to be part of the recovery and stress process. You know, you just have less responsibilities back then. So it was I didn't
Philip Pape 52:15
have the kids, you didn't have the pets, you didn't have the big house, on the mortgage, etc, etc. Yeah, so
Jeff Hoehn 52:18
So I think that's, that's gonna play a big role in it, right? So but as you age, it's definitely going to be, you're definitely not going to recover as well as you did when you were younger. So you know, this is where like, as you get older, I think it's important to really get your execution and technique and everything dialed in. Because, you know, again, when you're younger, you can get away with like, hey, if your forms off a little bit, it's no big deal, like, you're going to be fine. Whereas as you get older, you have all that wear and tear of everything else that you did for years, I think each little each time your your technique is off a little bit, I think it's going to it's going to play a bigger role, right. So I'm a huge fan of like, when people are trying to build muscle, like, the best thing you can do is really focus on execution and technique, don't think that it's always about like just trying to push yourself to the wall, like as far as you can, doing as much as you can, like, you're gonna have to dial it back. And the best thing you can do is get away with getting more out of each rep. Because I think that that's going to really help with the injury aspect of it. And again, as you know that the best thing you can do is do things that are going to you're going to be able to do for long periods of time, that's where you're really going to see that that big difference there with with everything. So
Philip Pape 53:23
yeah, you know, that whole thing about about form, it's spot on. And yet, I can't tell you how many guys I've seen men and women, but I'm in a barbell club, it's a lot of dudes that are like 4050 years old, and everyday at some lesson about how they hurt themselves and how they're not going to do it again. And it's like, we just don't learn, you always have to go through a little I did that myself, I ended up having back surgery and not because of lifting. But it definitely made me more conscious of every time I lift, I'm going to focus on a cue for this lift every rep every time I go forever. Like that's so important. Well, you know, I
Jeff Hoehn 53:53
think two for one for guys, it's more of a ego thing, right? Like, like, I think that's the big thing there. It's all about, oh, this person does this, so I gotta match that. But it's like, how you perform that lift is just so important, right? I had this conversation with Steve Hall actually. And like, we talked about how, like, you know, you see these guys in the gym that would do like, they would have like two plates on there. And you're like, Oh, that's amazing, but you never really like paid attention to how they did that, how they actually performed it. Right. And that that is such a big part of it. So you know, I think I think that's important but then you have people on the other side that I think overly focused on technique and then they don't ever progress so a light Yeah. So you need to find that that that happy medium there. But you know, with the weight training, I think the reason that's so important to get good technique is because you got to think you're you're doing you know multiple reps, multiple sets per week and again, you mess up if your performs not perfect once it's no big deal. But you know, you do that over and over again. And these things do start to add up. That's why with like weight training, you don't see a lot of like, acute injuries where it's like it happens right then and there. It's more of like build up of like, you have like more aches and like tendinitis and things like that.
Philip Pape 54:58
Yeah. So what about you what about your personal approach to recovery. You know, you've probably dealt with some setbacks and failure, you know, injuries, things like that. What have you dealt with that?
Jeff Hoehn 55:07
Can I actually I know you had one more question there about the the female women. Oh, yeah, reference. Do you mind? If
Philip Pape 55:13
I go over that? No, go for it, please? Well, I
Jeff Hoehn 55:15
was gonna say women on average, tend to recover a little bit quicker than than men do. They just the way that their bodies are, they're just, they can recover a little bit quicker. And that goes for, like, in between sets in between sessions. You know, part of it, too, is probably like, men do have more muscle mass than than women do, generally. So I think that probably plays a big role. And again, just like absolute weightlifting is gonna play a role in that, but but women do tend to recover a little bit quicker. And so really, like, what does that mean? I mean, all that means for women is that they can probably get away with a little bit more training volume, like their programs might have a little bit more volume than like, compared to men. Again, this is generally a
Philip Pape 55:51
double edged sword, right? Because you create that volume two, yep.
Jeff Hoehn 55:56
And they can maybe rest a little bit short and long, shorter, shorter in between sets. But again, you know, obviously, individual variation, there is the most important and you obviously have to kind of see it for yourself and what that's going to look like so
Philip Pape 56:10
yeah, women should be wearing all this stuff is on average, right? Like every individual is going to be respond differently. There is it's funny, you mentioned that about the weight because I remember looking into this not long ago, there are some actual genetic differences that independent of the weight lifted that do help women recover better. I just don't remember the details. estrogens involved.
Jeff Hoehn 56:28
estrogens, estrogen, and I think two women typically have like more type one fiber, yes, fibers than men. And so those those are a little bit more fatigue resistant, and they can recover quicker. They're they're a little bit more like endurance tight muscles.
Philip Pape 56:43
I knew you'd have the answer. So there you go. Yeah. So so then what about you? Is there any particular story you've got about recovery?
Jeff Hoehn 56:52
Yeah, um, so I think for me, this is going to be so you kind of mentioned this, I did have like, for a while, I just would always run into shoulder issues. And again, that just came down to me being young Dom Just just always trained in like, upper body and like benchpress, and like chest. But also for me, it was just, I felt like I was at the like, this was like, probably my, I'm 31 I always forget holding, I'm now 31. And when I was in my like, early to mid 20s, it was all about like, I want it to be jacked. So I just would try to train six, seven days a week, I didn't really pay attention to nutrition sleep, I was like, What the hell's sleep, that doesn't matter. And it was like, if I went two days, without training, I was like, Oh, crap, I'm gonna lose all my game, I'm gonna lose all my games, you know. And so it was all about just going in the gym and just like hammering out like volume, and just like, going for the pump just doing as much as I can Arnold style, right? Yep. And while I while I do think that that will lend itself to some results for a little bit. If you just keep doing that, it's like, eventually, your body's just going to be under recovered. And you're just not going to see any progress, right. Because, you know, if you if you over if you train too much, and you don't have the recovery there and again, this can be this can be calories, this can be how many days off of training you take, like, if you don't have that in place, your body's going to prioritize recovering before it's going to prioritize building muscles, you can be doing all this stuff, and you're just, honestly, you're wasting your time because it can be good for you. But you're just, you're not going to see the results you want you to be putting in a lot of work for not a lot. So for me, you know, a big part of learning more was like, Man, I need to focus more on things outside of the gym, right? You know, so things that can really improve recovery again, or, you know, obviously taking some time away from fat loss dieting that can improve recovery, like being at maintenance like that can help being a surplus that can help a little bit, you know, sleep working on your sleep that can be helpful with the recovery side of things that can increase how much you can do, you know, managing your stress. And then again, this is mental stress, but also the other stressors that I that I was talking about earlier, that can be helpful. And then your training program as well too, right. So we talked about frequency, intensity, like managing all that and making sure that you're not just like, training balls to the wall every single day. And just you know, like, that's going to be super important. And game changer for me. And that's again, going to come down to like your programming and things like that. But also another big thing too, is like making sure that you're not like if muscle building is your main goal, making sure that you're not like trying to weight train, but then also you're like trying to play three sports on the side, you're trying to run a marathon like that, that also goes into the recovery aspect of it as well, too. Oh, I had one more. Shoot, I hope it comes back to me here in a second. There was one more that I wanted to say that I think is big but I think I think getting all the you know, getting your training variables in play are going to be super important. But yeah, those those would be the big things that we're gonna have
Philip Pape 59:43
to follow your podcast to get the other the other one because you're teasing it. I wish I can't think of it. That's all good. No, it's all good. But you know how these guys there's only so much you can cram into one. One conversation here. Yeah. So all right, cool. I know we're running short on time. Just couple more questions if you don't mind. And of course, man, yep. I want to pick your brain about the podcast, the mind muscle connection, because, you know, you've had, you've had all these big names on your show, at least they're big, they're idols to me, you know, I love listening to these guys. And we were talking before about the friendships and connections you make. Who's been the most influential because of the personal relationships from podcasts?
Jeff Hoehn 1:00:20
Man, that is a good question. I saw that on there and I was like, man, who is it gonna be? So? You know, I would like I told you off air you know, everybody that comes on I feel like I do take away something from and it's like it's really changed my mind on things and I'm really grateful for that. People that I think have had the greatest influence from having them on the podcast. Brian Borstein is a big one. He does my programming now. So Brian Borstein is a good one. I think you just had him on recently, Brandon Cruz has had a big impact. Jeremiah bear is another one that's had a big impact on me. I would say those are probably my my top three. You know, I followed Steve Hall for a long time. And I always love chatting with him. I always get a ton out of hit of chats with him. But I mean, I've also had other like Eric Trexler, Eric Helms, like those that are great guys, too. But in terms of like people I've had on reoccurring, those would probably be the biggest like three for me.
Philip Pape 1:01:11
So great games, great games for people to look up. And so I have a funny story about Eric Helms and Eric Trexler. So as I was reaching out to folks like you to be on my show, I reached out to Eric Helms, or at least I thought I did, and it was Eric Drexler and I had said all this stuff. And he's like, Thanks, man. But you got the wrong Eric. So embarrassing. Don't worry, it happens all the time. I said, I'll hit you up later. let some time pass pass the awkward moment I'll get back to you. I hope he still wants to come on because I got his I get his partner Greg, Greg knuckles to come on in a few months, because I use macro factor and a bunch of my clients do and I love to talk and all that stuff. So and then the reverse dieting and all that stuff. Cool, man, Brian. Yeah, Brian Borstein. Brandon Cruz, Jeremiah bear Steve Hall and other so really good.
Jeff Hoehn 1:01:56
Yeah. That's that's funny with drinks with Eric. Correct. So I'm sure he was, like you said, I'm sure he that's the first time and it probably won't be the last time that that happens. So
Philip Pape 1:02:04
no, no, I have to have to butter him up. When I say again. i What's I mean, have you received, you receive a lot of feedback from listeners, I'm sure for the podcast as well. Like, what's some of the most memorable impact, you know, feedback that you've gotten?
Jeff Hoehn 1:02:21
Yeah, I think, you know, I haven't. I guess more so from clients would probably be where I would take this, but I think you kind of also had that clients in there as well, too. And, you know, I think for me to go back to what, again, what we talked about earlier, it's, you know, obviously, helping people get get like, their physique goals, and like, the body composition goals that they want. But anytime I get like a message from a client that's like, Hey, I either got to, like, you know, I got a promotion and this helped like, or it's like, hey, my doctor said, I can get off blood pressure medication, or like, Hey, I'm fitting into these clothes I haven't fit into for years, or like, anything like that, like, to me, that's those are the best like messages to get because, like I said, I think if you can improve somebody's quality of life, like that's just you can't you can't buy that and like, that's, you know, it's it's invaluable. And so that those are my favorite, like, kind of feedback that I've gotten from from people. And even even to like, I can't think of anybody off the top of my head from like, a podcast standpoint, you know, people are like, Hey, listen, I enjoy it. But like, anytime you get a message on like, social media about like, Hey, I've been, you know, they don't like your stuff, but they're like, Hey, I've been following along. And you know, you've really helped me out like, those are always the best ones. And you know, I, anytime you can improve somebody's quality of life, I think it's amazing. So
Philip Pape 1:03:37
I agree it and don't discount the fact that there are a lot of guys like me who are coaches are getting into coaches who listen to guys like you who are also learning to be better coaches. And you're basically exponentially you know, making a bigger impact that way.
Jeff Hoehn 1:03:49
Yeah, absolutely, man. Yeah, yeah, that too, right. Yeah, you definitely don't you don't think about that, too. So that's, that's great to hear. Yeah.
Philip Pape 1:03:55
Yeah. Cool, man. So I think you know what's coming next, because you obviously are well prepared and looked at my bullet list of topics. But What question did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Jeff Hoehn 1:04:05
Oh, man, I did see this one. And I was like, You know what, maybe we'll run out of time on this one. So what question do I think you do? I wish you would have asked me that you did it. And what's my answer? So I think it would be what is my favorite sport? Okay. All right. personal question.
Philip Pape 1:04:21
Is, is that what we want? Is that Well, I wouldn't have thought to ask them, so yeah, go for it. What's your favorite? So
Jeff Hoehn 1:04:27
it's hockey. I love hockey. My favorite team is the St. Louis Blues. So I'm a big hockey fan. And I play I play once I play roller hockey once a week and so that's kind of like my my cardio. So that would be my that would be my question. Kind of a cop out on that one. But
Philip Pape 1:04:39
not at all, man. No, it's good to learn more about you for sure. Hockey. It's funny. I grew up in Florida, so I didn't grow up watching hockey. But then I went to I went to Rensselaer Polytechnic. It's an engineering school in New York, and they were Division One hockey team. So there's nothing like like watching hockey in person is awesome for people listening. It's great.
Jeff Hoehn 1:04:57
It is so I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. So I think Got might have just said that but St. Louis Blues my team but man, I'll tell you what if you've ever been to a hockey game, gotta go it's for kind of easy. Where do you where do you live at now?
Philip Pape 1:05:07
I'm in Connecticut. Connecticut. Gotcha. Or no no professional sports here. Yeah, right. Just resurrecting that. Yeah. Cool, man. Yeah, actually the final four right Yukons in there with Miami and because I'm from Miami and a canes fan, and I also have to root for UConn. It's a little bit of a conflict up here. Yeah.
Jeff Hoehn 1:05:24
Well, I guess this is now you get to find out who you're really rooting for.
Philip Pape 1:05:27
I guess. So. Whoever My wife tells me. No, that's That's true. All right, man. So where can listeners learn more about you? Yeah.
Jeff Hoehn 1:05:34
So podcasts like you mentioned my muscle connection. Three, three episodes a week, I have a guest once a week as well to Instagram is where I'm most active. So Jeff HOEH en underscore. And so those would be the top two places that I'm that I'm most active on and where I would push people to cool.
Philip Pape 1:05:53
I'll do that. I'll put that in the show notes podcast for sure. Which is an easy request because you're already listening to a podcast, just go follow his. And then IG Jeff Payne, underscore. Alright man, it's been an awesome conversation. Really appreciate you coming on the show.
Jeff Hoehn 1:06:06
Ya know, I appreciate you having me on. It's like we said like I said off air. It's always interesting to be on the guest side of things, but it's always fun to chat. And I honestly feel like this one by pretty quickly so much introductions man and I love what you're doing and yeah, keep it up.
Philip Pape 1:06:20
Likewise, learn from the best, sir take care of you. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best